August 30, 2021 • 41 mins
Murray King is one of those people who took an early bet on China, and applied for a Beijing posting with the Canadian diplomatic service in the 1990s. Fast forward two decades, and he was part of the team that was bringing the Disney experience to China. In today's episode, Murray shares how he continues to apply his experience in negotiation and public relations to his role as the Head of Public Affairs for the Shanghai Disney Resort. We end our discussion on a question that might resonate with all the other people out there who have spent decades living in Asia: What's your end game? And Murray actually has an inspired answer to that question. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Emily Madge from Season 01 Episode 14. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-14-emily-madge). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:34 - Part 1 22:15 - Part 2 34:15 - Outro 37:19 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-29-murray-king.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: You are not winning any friends right
now. At least you've given me that coin.MK: Yes, yes. You have your coin, yes.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We’re almost at the end of Season 02. Andfor today’s episode we hark back to the
(00:25):
first ever episode of the podcast, which waswith Philippe Gas, the General Manager of
the Shanghai Disney Resort. So if you wantto hear that side of the Disney story, be
sure to go right back to Season 01 Episode01.
Philippe recommended today’s guest, MurrayKing, who is one of those people who took
an early bet on China, so we spend the firstten minutes of our chat discussing those early
(00:47):
days when he served as a diplomat in Beijing.I wanted to cover that part of his story,
so that we can hear how he has been able toapply some of those skills to his current
role managing Public Affairs at the ShanghaiDisney Resort. What ensues is a mini-masterclass
in government negotiations and public relations,especially in the context of how Shanghai
(01:09):
Disney made global headlines when it becamethe first theme park in the world to reopen
since the outbreak of the Coronavirus pandemic.
And in contrast to last week’s episode withthe content creator Zhao Huiling, where we
talk about early career choices, Murray andI also talk about something very close to
my heart, which is… After spending decadesin Asia, what is your end game? And Murray
(01:32):
actually has an answer to that question.
[Part 1]OF: Let’s jump in, then, to the conversation.
So I would like you to listen to this.MK: Oh.
OF (01:41):
Are you ready? MK
[Start of Audio Clip]Philippe GAS: So I'm thinking about a colleague
of mine who has been working in China fornow more than 20 years. His name is Murray
King, he is the head of Public Affairs forShanghai Disney Resort. He's, I think, a beautiful
example of somebody who’s a blend of Westernand Chinese culture, who understand the culture,
(02:03):
speaks the language. So I think he would bea great man to talk to.
[End of Audio Clip]OF: That was our friend, Philippe.
MK (02:09):
Philippe, yeah. I met Philippe briefly when he was still the President of Disneyland
Paris and I was at Shanghai Disney Resort.And we met in Hong Kong, briefly. And then,
in the autumn of 2014, he was appointed asthe General Manager of Shanghai Disney Resort.
And, you know, I have a home in France, sowe had a natural connection there. And yeah,
(02:30):
we hit it off famously from the very beginning,and he's still a great friend.
OF (02:33):
That's great. And of course, you would have been behind the scenes of allowing him
to do the podcast with us last season anyway,right?
MK (02:42):
I can't comment. OF
it there, but what is your actual title atDisney?
I'm the Vice President of Public Affairs and Communications for Shanghai Disney Resort.
To help coordinate our strategies and tacticsaround building, enhancing and then also protecting
(03:02):
the reputation of the brand of Shanghai DisneyResort. And to put that in the temporal context,
from the very beginning when we first announcedthe project, it’s a major joint venture;
through to the development; the pre-opening;the grand opening; and then the post-opening
operation period, five years of operations.OF: Well, we'll be getting into that later
(03:26):
on.MK: OK.
OF (03:27):
Before we jump in, what is the object that you have brought, which in some way exemplifies
your life here in China?MK: Well I thought really long and hard on
this. And it's not going to be something that'sgoing to be exciting, but it's something that
everyone can visualise.OF: OK.
MK (03:41):
A coin. OF
A RMB1 coin. OF
It is rare. I've been in China for many years, and coins have been part of my experience,
because obviously we all use - or used touse - hard currency. It has a peony flower
- which is the unofficial flower of China- on one side, and it has one 元 [Yuán]
(04:04):
on the other side, and 中华人民共和国[Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó] written
in Chinese. So much of China's developmenthas been focused on its economic planning.
The purchasing power of the Chinese obviouslyhas increased dramatically, certainly since
I've been here. The value of the Renminbihas changed, and as it changes that's also
(04:25):
changed China's development story, sometimesup, sometimes down, but broadly up. The way
people use money - what they purchase - haschanged dramatically, and people have built
careers and reputations and businesses allaround understanding that. And then now this
is more like something that you put in a jarat home. The people are using different forms
(04:46):
of money, obviously digital currency. Andwith COVID-19 it's becoming actually a very
smart way to transact, because you don't haveto touch something.
OF (04:53):
Right. MK
know, it represents a lot about China.OF: Great. And in terms of your life, does
it have a personal resonance in that case?MK: You know, I've been in China now 22 years.
The majority of my career in my adult lifehas been in China. And so we've I've been
successful in my career - hopefully a littlebit, I have - and financially, I have to thank
(05:14):
China for that, and China's opening and reform.OF: Well, we're going to jump into our conversation,
but I should note immediately that I'm quitetrepidatious about this one. Because you're
someone who is very polite - you’re Canadian,after all - but I know that you are going
to be hard for me to get answers out of. I'man expert winkler. But I think as much winkling
(05:35):
as I'm going to do, you are going to parrythe winkle pretty carefully. Because it's
part of your job, right? So you deal witha lot of communications, you mentioned straight
away about reputation management, how doesthat work on a day-to-day basis at Disneyland?
MK (05:49):
Well, I think every brand has natural attributes. You know, people say it takes
a lifetime to build a reputation, and justa moment to lose it.
OF (05:57):
Right. MK
it goes back to the 1920s. So in that sense,you know, you start from a position of advantage.
But obviously it's more complicated than that,because we're not just bringing a brand, we’re
bringing an experience into China. And it'sin a new country. And we opened this resort
for the first time in a more complex environment,it’s the first time in the age of social
(06:21):
media, the scale was very large. And the familiaritywith the brand was different than in other
markets. So my job is to help navigate thecomplexities of the market, to emphasise the
positive attributes of the brand, to workwith other teams to ensure that we build success
into the how we represent the brand in thismarket, rather than try to fix mistakes. A
(06:46):
preemptive, broad, culturally-sensitive andrelevant strategy to make the brand relevant
for this market. And you know, the consumerat the end of the day, consumers here are
very savvy, they understand a brand's attributes.They want to experience the same quality of
those attributes as any other consumer inany other marketplace. And that's what we
(07:07):
strive to do.OF: How did you fall into this line of work?
MK (07:11):
I studied history and English literature - and then law - at university in Canada.
And I practised corporate commercial and thenhuman rights law for several years. And then
I joined the Canadian diplomatic service witha focus on trade promotion. So in Canada at
that time, the ministries of Foreign Affairsand International Trade were merged. And so
(07:36):
I was part of the Foreign Service, with afocus on promoting Canadian exports into the
Chinese market; and inward investment promotion,so investment from China into Canada. And
I had an interest in China. And at that time,it seemed - this was kind of mid 90s - that
there was not as much interest in foreignservice officers in coming to a market like
(07:56):
China, there was more interest in Europe andmore traditional diplomatic postings. For
me, it was clearly a number one choice.OF: Well, where did that come from? Where
did you get your interest in China at thatpoint?
I had grown up in an international environment. I actually was born in England to parents
of Scottish and English descent. And we weremoved to Montreal because my father was in
(08:17):
the aerospace industry, and he had an assignmentin Montreal. So from a young age, I grew up
in a French-speaking area of North America.Eventually stayed in Canada, eventually became
a Canadian citizen. My father transitionedto the airline industry, and free tickets
are an important feature of the compensationpackage for family members. And so I had the
(08:41):
opportunity to travel on free air passes aroundthe world. And so by the time I finished university,
I'd seen a lot of the world. And so I hadjust this kind of multicultural upbringing,
and I always thought - even though I had pursueda career in law initially - that I wanted
to see the world more broadly, and to workoverseas. As I was thinking about what a career
(09:02):
outside of Canada could look like, my heartactually pulled me towards Latin America.
Great culture, fascinating history, complicatedpolitics, beautiful landscapes and geography,
and just so diverse and exotic. But a difficultplace to build a career, if you have a sense
of ambition. You can, and particularly incertain industries like natural resources.
(09:25):
But when I went to China, I saw a lot of thesame excitement and fascination that a 20-something-year-old
would be interested in and would be drawnto. But I also saw a real potential economically,
and from a career perspective. And so whenI eventually joined the Foreign Service, that
kind of had the right alignment of everythingfor me. I always say to friends, it's akin
(09:45):
- from a career perspective - to if I hadbought Apple stock when it was Steve Jobs
in his garage building computers. I took agamble on investing my time - to learn a language,
and embrace a culture, and change my careerpath - because I believed in China, and China's
future.OF: Yes, that's exactly what I feel like with
(10:05):
people who came in the 90s. So what was itlike when you first came, and what were you
doing back then?MK: When I came originally, it was not easy
to use local currency. You could not makepurchases in most locations. You had to use
friendship stores, even in big cities likeBeijing.
OF (10:20):
And it was in Beijing that you were, right? You first came to Beijing.
MK (10:23):
Yes. My posting in Beijing was in the trade section of the Canadian Embassy. And
you know, it was exciting because it was theage of big national trade missions. That was
the time when that was a successful businessmodel, and it wasn't as easy to get access
to local companies and local regulators.OF: So when you're dealing with relations
at that level - we're talking about the headof state - what does that entail? Do you have
(10:48):
to get really involved in a lot of the redtape, or were you just getting the programmes
together?MK: Well I was involved in, I think, five
Prime Minister visits. Trade missions, allof them trade missions. And usually what happens
is - if you work in an embassy - you get assignedto do one part of the programme. So in 2001,
the programme in Beijing included a statebanquet. So typically - from a protocol perspective
(11:12):
- on arrival, the Chinese side would hosta state banquet to welcome the foreign leader.
And then our ‘Team Canada’ model had areciprocal banquet hosted by the Canadian
Prime Minister for Chinese counterparts ingovernment and in business, and then to leverage
that banquet to invite the Canadian businessesthat were part of the mission to come and
(11:34):
participate in essentially what would be amajor networking opportunity. So in 2001,
I was assigned the responsibility to organisea dinner. But a dinner for approximately 2,700
people at The Great Hall of the People, whichinvolved about six months of preparation.
I think it's still the largest foreign governmenthosted event ever held at the Great Hall of
(11:55):
the People.OF: Oh wow.
Because after that, they started to… The trade mission concept changed. So the
largesse of those kinds of missions becameless popular. And the banquet was extremely
complex, because it obviously was much morethan a dinner. There were multiple VIP and
VVIP receptions; there were cultural performances;there were multiple arrival points at The
(12:17):
Great Hall depending on which level of invitationyou received; there were incredible security
protocols, because this is essentially China'sparliament building. So it involved a lot
of negotiation with relevant ministries onboth sides. A lot of fun. Stressful. And,
you know, at the end of the day, it's a dinner.OF: Right. It just reminds me of someone's
(12:38):
wedding, where you realise “Yeah, it’sjust a party”. But this is expanded on such
a huge level. And you're in the firing line,because if you get it wrong, they're gonna
blame your department.MK: I was definitely in the firing line. And
many others. I mean, a great team effort tohelp make it work.
OF (12:52):
Well you mentioned the team just then, it makes me want to jump forward. Let's miss
out a little bit of your story, and we'llcome back to it. Let's jump forward to today
then, where you're at Disney. What lessonsdid you learn from those days that you can
apply now?MK: I think years in market - you know, sometimes
making mistakes yourself, and sometimes seeingothers make mistakes - teaches you a lot about
(13:14):
culture. And also helps hone your skills andyour instincts. I'd say there are a few things
that that I definitely focus on. One is alwaystrying to understand the perspective of the
stakeholders that I'm working with. Especiallywhen there's a regulator involved. The government,
you know, has certain focuses; the communityhas certain needs; and then the company has
(13:35):
certain advantages. Where do you find thatalignment between those different competing
interests? And I don't just mean in big projects.Even if you don't necessarily agree with the
agenda of the person sitting opposite you,if you don't understand what that agenda is
- and you can't come up with some common ground,and next step - then the meeting doesn't take
you anywhere. And, you know, sometimes youwon’t get the second meeting. So always
(13:56):
try to do a little bit of homework and understand- based on your own knowledge and experience,
but also your team - what is the agenda ofthe team that you're meeting with, or the
stakeholder? And how can you help them besuccessful, while also delivering on your
own objectives? That's the sweet spot of successhere. Secondly - and this perhaps is more
relevant in this market - is understandingthe decision-making ability of the person
(14:18):
sitting opposite you. It's quite common - Ithink more in our western world - to believe
that when you sit down and you have a discussionwith someone, that if you're trying to reach
consensus on something, you find common groundby conceding some points and holding on other
points. That works well if you're engagingwith someone who has the same level of ability
to make those decisions. Often, people showtheir hand too early. You know, sometimes
(14:44):
the person sitting opposite you wants to reachan agreement, but actually then has to report
back on the discussion to someone who's moresenior, who then may press the reset button.
And you've already shown a hand, so you haveto go to your second position. Patience - understanding
the shared and the differing agendas of individuals- is important in anything here.
(15:07):
Well, let's go back to your story. We were talking about Beijing. But here we are
in Shanghai. So when did you move from Beijingto Shanghai?
MK (15:15):
I officially moved in July of 2001. I had made the decision because Shanghai in
2001 was probably the hottest economy in theworld. It was double digit GDP growth year
on year on year. Not just double, like 12-14%.And, you know, the physical infrastructure
(15:37):
that is so iconic today - the 陆家嘴 [Lùjiāzuǐ]浦东 [Pǔdōng] skyline - was still relatively
early in its build-out. And I got to see alot of that. And I kind of wanted to stay,
and test the private sector waters. So I wasoffered an opportunity to work for an American
public affairs - and trade and investment- consulting firm called APCO, to manage their
Shanghai office. And in fact, I could probablydo more for companies because there were some
(16:01):
limitations of what you could do in a TradeCommissioner Service. I could work with companies
in a broader range of sectors; I could workwith companies from different countries; I
could also work with other government agencies;and I could work for Chinese companies. You
know, if you were a smart consultant, youcould find the right opportunities where there
(16:22):
was the most potential. And that's kind ofwhat myself - and a great team at APCO - did,
over the years that followed.OF: And then this is what eventually led you
to Disney, right? They were one of your clientsat that time.
Yeah, I started working with Disney about 10-11 years ago, and officially joined in
2011. And it was just a small team at thattime. We were tasked with building up a team
(16:45):
that could help support the development andconstruction, and start to build up awareness
of what we were going to create and open.OF: And so, what most people nowadays will
remember - when it comes to communicationsand Disneyland - is when Disneyland reopened
after the Coronavirus. That was somethingwhere I remember hearing about it. To what
(17:06):
extent were you involved in that process?MK: My team was involved heavily, obviously.
Because of media and, you know, the publicannouncement. A very emotional time. I think
- this isn't unique to Disney, it isn't uniqueto China, it isn’t unique to you and me
- that Coronavirus has been hugely impactfulon people's lives. In ways that I don't think
(17:30):
any of us realised in the 21st century couldhappen. And the journey of the pandemic is
different in every country. And obviously,it's well known that in China, it was an earlier
journey. And in some markets a later journey,and some markets a much longer journey, more
painful. But everyone has been negativelyimpacted. And there was so much negative news,
(17:54):
and so much tragedy. And the world was kindof ready for some hint that we could turn
a corner, globally. And because our role inthe community is to create happiness and joy
for people, what’s needed most at a timeof challenge like this, is what we were unable
to offer. And so when we were able to finallymeet the conditions, and were confident that
(18:20):
it was the right time to reopen - even thoughtentatively, and with a lot of safety and
health measures in place - we fully believedthat that was an opportunity to inspire, and
to help show people that there was a lightat the end of the tunnel. And that was a tremendous
burden, a tremendous pressure, but a tremendousopportunity. And so we were nervous, we worked
hard, but we were also excited about the opportunityto help turn the page. Because it was just
(18:45):
the right time for people to get some goodnews. And we were able to do it in a responsible
way. So we were very pleased with the result.OF: And just hearing you talk about it, I
can feel the emotion. Do you count that asone of the highlights of your time in Disneyland
Shanghai?MK: It certainly will be a memory, not just
for from my time in Shanghai though, but itwill be a highlight of my time in China. And
(19:10):
my whole life, I think.OF: What other highlights stand out that come
close?MK: I think when I moved to Shanghai was also
very exciting. Beijing was wonderful, I lovedthe experience. I still love Beijing. But
when I came to Shanghai, it felt like home.I've learned to take more risks in life. You
(19:31):
know, when you come on a diplomatic posting,there's a lot of looked after for you. And
taking the risk of stepping out of that bubble,that position of privilege that's lent you
- the status, the apartment, the role - takingthe risk to try something outside of my comfort
zone was kind of scary. But at the same time,it was really exhilarating, and exciting,
(19:54):
intoxicating almost. And hopefully - eventhough I’ll leave China - I’ll take a
risk somewhere else, and do something elseand, and know that you're always the better
for the risk that you take. No matter whetheryou fail or you succeed. Hopefully I'll succeed
though.OF: And you mentioned leaving China. So is
there an end game? Like, where do you seeyour future?
(20:14):
I don't know. I'm quite happy living in China. And the tale of China, it ebbs and
flows - its success, its economy, its relations- but I have wonderful friends here. My community,
my life, is here. So I don't have any endgame. Now, practically speaking, there probably
will be a day when I retire to some warm,comfortable climate where I escape from the
(20:39):
hustle and bustle of a big city. You know,I bought a home in France years ago. And so
I have a parallel life - that’s not Canada,and not the UK, and not China - where I spend
time on holidays. And there’s a communityof friends that I have that’s completely
disconnected from my profession, from theplaces I grew up, or the places I work. And
(21:02):
I love that escapism. And so that's an option,some days. Maybe the south of France wouldn't
be the worst choice.OF: Right.
I do know of friends - older than me - who have spent 20+ years, 30+years in Asia, and
have retired to another country. Sometimesit's hard in China - for regulatory reasons,
(21:23):
visas, and healthcare, and other reasons - youdecide to leave, even if it's your home for
many years. And when you're in your 60s andyou make a decision to buy in a place that
you don't know, first of all it's harder tosay “Hey, I made a mistake” when you've
committed at that age. It takes longer toknow whether it's a place you want to live.
And so I think for me, having that parallellife - that allows me to know what that community
(21:50):
is, and whether it's a place I'd like to liveone day - having the time over many years
to do that has been a good experience.OF: Yeah. Smart. Well I guess if it hadn't
been, then you would have been selling upand trying a different country by now. So
yeah, seven years later, it looks like it'sworking out.
Right, exactly. OF
going to have to figure out what that placeis. Well, thank you so much, Murray. On to
(22:13):
Part 2.MK: OK.
[Part 2]OF: The 10 questions, they start here. So
I ask these questions to every guest. We willstart with Question 1. What is your favourite
China-related fact?MK: The word ‘Shanghai’ means ‘up from
the ocean’. 上 [Shàng] means ‘up’,and 海 [hǎi] means ‘ocean’.
OF (22:32):
Yeah. MK
without ever stopping and thinking "Why isit called Shanghai?” So this is one big
river delta. It's just silt deposit over hundredsand thousands of years. And we're about maybe
a metre or less above sea level. So literally,this is a city which hasn't just risen vertically
(22:54):
in the last 20 years - as we see the beautifulskyline of 陆家嘴 [Lùjiāzuǐ] - it's
a physical creation that has risen up fromthe ocean. It's still being created. If you've
ever seen those… Maybe when you land at浦东 [Pǔdōng] airport and looked out at
that coastline, there are mud flats that juststretch out into infinity. And the water is
a very brown colour, it's silt coming downthe Yangtse river and being deposited in the
(23:18):
East China Sea. So Shanghai is continuingto be created.
Wow. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
MK (23:27):
If I were to choose a couple of words that should be part of the English language…
厉害 [Lìhài], because it's a word that'sboth positive and negative. You know, somebody
who is 很厉害 [hěn lìhài] can be reallystrong. And it can be pejorative, it can be
quite negative. You know, “His attitudeis 太厉害 [tài lìhài]”, he's too strict,
he’s too strong, he's not flexible enough.Or his personality. But, you know, you can
(23:53):
also describe someone who's 厉害 [lìhài]as really good at something, who’s really
got great competency or skill. It can be verydifferent meanings depending on the context.
OF (24:02):
Yeah. The contextuality of it is so rich. Which 厉害 [lìhài] are you, do you think?
MK (24:07):
If you asked one of the people who works with me, they might say the negative one.
I like to think that I'm both. And neither.That I'm just me.
OF (24:17):
Yeah. The second thing? MK
the literal context, means disgusting.OF: Oh, ‘dislike’, right.
MK (24:25):
Yes. But if a girl were to say to you “你很讨厌 [Nǐ hěn tǎoyàn]” they're
saying it in a positive way.OF: Really?
Almost in a flirtatious way. OF
It’s a sad story.MK: No I'm sure that someone does. I'm sure
that someone does.OF: That's great, thank you for that. What
is your favourite destination within China?MK: 平遥 [Píngyáo], 平遥古城 [Píngyáo
(24:48):
Gǔchéng]. I think maybe others have saidthat too.
OF (24:50):
No. MK
to anybody. You know, it's a walled city - aboutsix square kilometres - it rises up out of
the agricultural plains of 山西 [Shānxī]Province. And it is a tremendous experience,
it feels like you're stepping into a 明 [Míng]Dynasty movie. And within that walled city…
It's a protected UNESCO World Heritage site,so there's really no development on the outside
(25:13):
of the walled city. So it’s mostly justfarmland. Of course, there are a few tourist
things that have popped up. But within thewalled city, there really are no cars. You
can rent a bicycle, you can bike around thecity on the wall. There are lots of traditional
hotels, and restaurants, and great food, andgreat people. And it’s just a wonderful
experience.OF: The photos I saw from my friend's holiday
(25:34):
there did show a mass of tourists, though.So that's the one downside, right?
MK (25:38):
Well I was lucky enough to go 20 years ago.
OF (25:41):
Ah. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the
least?MK: The most is the excitement of every day.
Every day, something is happening, I learnsomething, I'm challenged in some way, I also
feel like it can contribute in some way. Ijust feel like it's where everything's happening.
(26:02):
So that's what I would miss the most. WhatI would miss the least is the fast pace. I
don't know if that makes any sense. But whenI do get out of the country - and when I go
to my comfort zone, to France or somewhereelse - you know, it's really nice to not have
a fast pace. And every so often you need tokind of recharge your batteries, I think that's
obvious. And the problem is, when I'm thereI miss the fast pace after a couple of weeks;
(26:27):
when I'm here after a few months, I need abreak from the fast pace. So I'm never going
to be completely happy in either.OF: Thank you for saying that so well. Is
there anything that still surprises you aboutlife in China?
MK (26:39):
Yes. I can't tell you what they are, because it’ll be tomorrow’s surprise. But there
are definitely things that surprise me. Butsometimes, surprise me in special ways. I'll
give you kind of a unique example. I rememberwhen I first came here, you know, I had the
opportunity to travel domestically, and thiswas like 27 years ago. And in those days,
you got a boarding pass, you went to a smallairport terminal. And then you would be bussed
(27:02):
out - or you'd walk out - to the aircrafton the tarmac. It wasn't anything like it
is now. And even though you had a reservedseat, you know, there was a scrum to get onto
the flight. And I mean, it was a rough scrum.And you knew you had your seat, in theory.
Sometimes you had to remind people who gotyour seat that it was your seat, it would
always work out. And then, the same thingon an escalator, everybody would just push
(27:27):
in. And there are a lot of reasons for that,and it's not a criticism. But I remember,
it was like about eight years ago, I was onan escalator going up to the second floor
in my office building at the time. And I lookedup and I noticed that everyone was standing
to the right. Everybody, without exception.And it just made me realise, everything you
(27:49):
thought you knew was different. Because peopleare progressing, and society is changing so
quickly, and so dynamically. And it's justthe smallest of things, but it's exciting
to see it. And it's exciting to be part ofit. And I kind of almost felt like I was the
one who was kind of standing on the wrongside. So your perspective changes.
OF (28:06):
Yes. And when you see it - as a stark image, like you said - then it does hit home.
MK (28:12):
Yeah. OF
to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?MK: M on the Bund.
OF (28:19):
Oh, there you go. MK
as long as I'm here. I almost feel like it'snamed after me because ‘M’ for Murray.
It's not for me, it’s for Michelle who ownsthe restaurant. But I love the restaurant,
I love the location, I love the cuisine, Ilove the branding, I love the feel of the
place. I also love 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù],it's just a beautiful area. And 安福路
(28:42):
[Ānfú Lù], 湖南路 [Húnán Lù], 兴国路[Xīngguó Lù], that whole area. So I spend
a lot of time at the little cafes and restaurantsthere, when I have a chance to come back to
the 浦西 [Pǔxī] side of Shanghai.OF: Yes. I think that's where we first met,
in one of those cafes there, right?MK: That's right.
What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
MK (28:59):
I bought a 1920s house on 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù] years ago.
OF (29:03):
Damn you! You’re one of those people who got in early enough.
MK (29:06):
I made the brave decision to buy the top of a 1920s house - a standalone house, the
top part of that house - in about 2005. Andlived in it for seven years, and had a wonderful
experience. And then I sold it. And you knowthe old adage ‘Buy low, sell high’ definitely
applies to real estate in Shanghai.OF: You are not winning any friends right
(29:28):
now. At least you've given me that coin.MK: Yes, yes. You have your coin, yes.
OF (29:36):
Now the hardest question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
MK (29:40):
It's a great question actually, because I communicate more by stickers than by text.
So there's a series of WeChat stickers whichis called 小刘 [Xiǎo Liú], Little Liu.
OF (29:52):
Yeah. MK
of characters. There’s a duck, and there'sa cat, and I think there are a couple of other
characters that occasionally make an appearance.And I just think that the designs are brilliant.
And it's just super fun, and a little bitnaughty. And yeah, that's me.
Now, here's a funny thing. When I interviewed a diplomat in Season 01 - he worked for the
(30:16):
New Zealand consulate here - he was alwayscareful about stickers, because they can be
misconstrued. And when you give me this cheekynaughtiness, that's kind of what he was slightly
worried about. So he doesn't use WeChat stickers.Do you think if you were still a diplomat,
you would have these stickers?MK: I think these are cheeky and naughty,
but they're not even close to crossing theline of being inappropriate. Although there
(30:39):
are some others that are probably less appropriate.I think if I was still a diplomat, I would
be more careful about using WeChat.OF: At all.
MK (30:46):
And I would certainly be careful about what I used. But I think these are harmless
enough. I think the world has changed a lotas well.
OF (30:53):
Yeah. MK
primitively, and yet in a more sophisticatedway through things like videos and photos.
Yeah. MK
gifs, and things like that.OF: Yes. Let's go into the societal history
about hieroglyphics, because that's what we'redoing really, using gifs and using emojis,
right?MK: Right, right.
(31:13):
Very good, these are super cute. MK
a great range of stickers. All of my stickersare 小刘 [Xiǎo Liú] now.
Beautiful. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
MK (31:26):
Yikes, I haven't been the KTV in a while. OF
Yeah, well you know, times have changed. OF
Times have changed. OF
There are a few. But I guess the one that I like to sing - if I can sing with somebody
else, because it's probably more known asa female song - 后来 [Hòulái], 刘若英
[Liú Ruòyīng].OF: OK.
It’s a song by a Taiwanese singer that probably is 15-20 years old now. And when
(31:53):
I learned Chinese - and I tried to improvemy colloquial Chinese - I did it by trying
to listen to more Chinese pop music. It’sa great way to entertain yourself and learn
a language. And it's just one of the earlysongs that you know… It's kind of just a
tune that stuck with me, and gnawed at me,and stayed with me. And so you have to learn
one song. Right, you need your karaoke song.So that was my song, because nobody would
(32:15):
have expected I could sing that song, right?OF: Ah.
It’s not like 对面的女孩看过来 [Duìmiàn de nǚhái kàn guòlái], which
is very common.OF: I have learnt 对面的女孩看过来
[Duìmiàn de nǚhái kàn guòlái], becauseit's the easiest for me.
It's a fun song too. OF
Yeah. OF
or sources of information do you rely on?MK: I try to look at everything I can. So,
(32:36):
South China Morning Post is a great way toget some of the mainland news in a less filtered
way. Strangely enough, I like Shanghai Daily,their Metro News is great, it's a great way
to get a fix on local news. Sinocism is great.OF: Yeah.
上海发布 [Shànghǎi Fābù], the Shanghai Information Office. Everybody should
have 上海发布 [Shànghǎi Fābù] on theirWeChat as a subscription. And you know, the
(32:59):
best news I get is just what I see and hear.OF: Yeah, exactly. Well, very good, thank
you so much Murray.MK: It's my pleasure.
OF (33:07):
The only thing left for me to ask you is, out of everyone you know in China - and
this could include your 20 years experience- who do you think I should interview for
the next season of Mosaic of China?MK: It’s a good question, Oscar. There are
lots of choices, actually. But I thought Iwould try and orient you in a different direction,
and try someone maybe from a different industry.And so I would like to recommend Diana Xu,
(33:30):
Xu Jidan. She is a lady from Northeast China- from 吉林 [Jílín] Province - who in
2012 was crowned Miss Universe China.OF: Oh, wow.
MK (33:41):
So she's a beauty queen. But she's a very smart lady as well. She went to Las Vegas
and represented China in the Miss Universepageant, and won Best National Costume.
OF (33:54):
Oh. MK
experience as a young woman - in a uniqueplace, at a unique time - and then obviously
came back to China, fulfilled her duties forone year, and then has gone on to build her
own career and business.OF: That's great. Well, once again, thanks
for your time Murray.MK: Pleasure.
(34:16):
[Outro]OF: So I mentioned that there had been another
diplomat on Mosaic of China, but I forgotto name him. Well let me correct that, it
was Tom Barker from Season 01 Episode 25.And it struck me that, unbelievably, Tom and
I talked about a fictional diplomat by thename of ‘Murray’’ in his episode. I
wish I had figured that out a little earlierthan right now, although perhaps the real
(34:40):
Murray from today’s episode wouldn’t havebeen too amused by the comparison.
Regular listeners’ ears might have prickedup when Murray mentioned that his favourite
KTV song was NOT 对面的女孩看过来[Duìmiàn de nǚhái kàn guòlái]. Because
it was the favourite for two previous guests,Stephane de Montgros, the events company CEO
from Season 01 Episode 19, and Vladimir Djurovic,the brand naming expert from Season 02 Episode
(35:06):
13.
And the final fun connection came when Murraywas explaining the how the phrase “你很讨厌
[Nǐ hěn tǎoyàn]” can be used flirtatiously.This reminded me of the kind of Shanghainese
female that Nick Yu, the playwright from Season01 Episode 13 was describing with his favourite
word in Chinese, 作 [Zuò].
As always, type ‘Mosaic of China’ intoInstagram, Facebook or WeChat, to see all
(35:31):
the accompanying images for today’s show,spanning Murray’s whole time in China as
well as his parallel life in France. And headto the website to follow the transcript from
the conversation, or to subscribe to the PREMIUMversion of the show. I covered a lot more
with Murray than I could fit into this regularversion, and here are some clips to prove
it.
(35:51):
[Clip 1]MK: I was here when SARS reared its ugly head,
and that was 2003 in the spring.[Clip 2]
Which do you prefer, Beijing or Shanghai? MK
Errrr… OK. [Clip 3]
MK (36:04):
There was a message on my phone with a draft press release to close the resort. Two
days later I was on a plane back.OF: Yeah.
[Clip 4]MK: Disney has been in China since the 1920s.
Snow White premiered in Shanghai and in 南京[Nánjīng]
[Clip 5]MK: Even if you're not a person that generally
gets emotional, sometimes a little show helps.[Clip 6]
We talk every day - obviously, he’s my brother, he's my twin actually - so…
OF (36:26):
What? MK
Do they actually know there's two of you, right?
MK (36:29):
They do, they do. [End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. I’m still in touch with
the person who referred Murray to the show,Philippe Gas from Season 01. But Philippe’s
extremely busy these days working on a USD8Billion entertainment project in Saudi Arabia,
(36:49):
so I couldn’t find my way into his calendarto record a follow-up. Instead, I’m including
a catch-up from one of the other most popularguests from last Season, which was Emily Madge,
the sealife conservation expert from Episode14 of Season 01. So please enjoy listening
to her voice once again, and I'll see younext week with the last new guest of Season
(37:09):
02!
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello!
EM (37:15):
Hello, how are you? OF
Do I? Thank you. OF
yours was one of the most popular episodesof Season 01. At that time, you were based
(37:39):
in the Shanghai Sea Life centre, right?EM: Correct, yes.
OF (37:44):
So tell me about where I find you today. EM
to Bangkok. So I'm currently based in SeaLife Bangkok Aquarium, doing the same job
just in a different region. And loving it,loving my life in Thailand.
(38:05):
I can tell by the way you are smiling. Your face looks tanned, your hair looks blonde.
EM (38:10):
You know, I've been hitting those beaches, checking it out, it’s great.
OF (38:16):
Your move was planned, wasn't it? EM
little bit in China. And then fortunately,I got to Thailand just before the borders
closed, and everything. So I actually leftChina for vacation in January to go to New
Zealand. And I came here a bit sooner thanexpected. And my company helped me move my
(38:37):
stuff from there. So I've never actually beenback to Shanghai since I left.
Right, I was wondering whether I'd missed your goodbye party.
EM (38:44):
No, you would have got an invite. OF
episode was the huge job that you and yourteam undertook, in terms of relocating a couple
of beluga whales from Shanghai to Iceland.EM: Yes.
OF (39:02):
So the obvious question is, what is the update with the whales?
EM (39:06):
So the whales are doing really well. They went straight into a kind of holding facility
that was indoors, just to get them acclimatedto everything. And then they've been released
out into the bay, just practising recall.We fed them up, so they had a nice layer of
fat ready to go over for the colder waters.But there are also other factors. So for example,
(39:30):
the whales, they breach the surface to breathe.In Iceland - when it's stormy, and they're
not used to having to breach - they’re havingto acclimatise to their new environment. We've
had some wonderful videos where they've beento the bottom, and been picking up starfish,
and bringing them to the keepers, out of curiosity.And a lovely, lovely video with both of them
(39:51):
just breaching the surface and just sat therefeeling the rain on their skin. Obviously,
the first time they felt rain. Very heartwarmingto watch.
OF (39:59):
Amazing. EM
And their future will always be within that semi-wild sanctuary. Or will they ever
be released beyond that?EM: No, it'll always be in that sanctuary.
They've just been in captivity for too long,it's too much of a risk. They don't have those
kind of natural instincts to survive in thewild. It must just be a different world for
(40:20):
them, to just have constant change in environmentall the time.
Yes. I think about those beluga whales going to their natural environment. And then
I look at you and you're this kind of Welshmermaid, and you were stuck on land here in
Shanghai, and it now looks like you've beentransplanted into your natural environment.
EM (40:38):
That's how it feels for me, that’s how it feels. In close proximity to the ocean
and to beaches. I did struggle, I did. I'mnot a city girl. And I did feel that kind
of city vibe in Shanghai. As wonderful asit was, and as wonderful as the people were
that I met, I am happier closer to the sea.OF: Yeah. Thank you, Emily. I'm really happy
(41:02):
that we had someone who represented somethingso unusual in the first season. When I met
you at that party, I knew that I had to getyou on to the podcast. And now that’s it,
you're stuck in the Mosaic for ever and ever.EM: I'm happy to be a part of it. And it's
lovely to catch up with you. Thank you somuch for having me on here.
[Trailer]OF: You are not winning any friends right
now. At least you've given me that coin.MK: Yes, yes. You have your coin, yes.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We’re almost at the end of Season 02. Andfor today’s episode we hark back to the
(00:25):
first ever episode of the podcast, which waswith Philippe Gas, the General Manager of
the Shanghai Disney Resort. So if you wantto hear that side of the Disney story, be
sure to go right back to Season 01 Episode01.
Philippe recommended today’s guest, MurrayKing, who is one of those people who took
an early bet on China, so we spend the firstten minutes of our chat discussing those early
(00:47):
days when he served as a diplomat in Beijing.I wanted to cover that part of his story,
so that we can hear how he has been able toapply some of those skills to his current
role managing Public Affairs at the ShanghaiDisney Resort. What ensues is a mini-masterclass
in government negotiations and public relations,especially in the context of how Shanghai
(01:09):
Disney made global headlines when it becamethe first theme park in the world to reopen
since the outbreak of the Coronavirus pandemic.
And in contrast to last week’s episode withthe content creator Zhao Huiling, where we
talk about early career choices, Murray andI also talk about something very close to
my heart, which is… After spending decadesin Asia, what is your end game? And Murray
(01:32):
actually has an answer to that question.
[Part 1]OF: Let’s jump in, then, to the conversation.
So I would like you to listen to this.MK: Oh.
OF (01:41):
Are you ready? MK
[Start of Audio Clip]Philippe GAS: So I'm thinking about a colleague
of mine who has been working in China fornow more than 20 years. His name is Murray
King, he is the head of Public Affairs forShanghai Disney Resort. He's, I think, a beautiful
example of somebody who’s a blend of Westernand Chinese culture, who understand the culture,
(02:03):
speaks the language. So I think he would bea great man to talk to.
[End of Audio Clip]OF: That was our friend, Philippe.
MK (02:09):
Philippe, yeah. I met Philippe briefly when he was still the President of Disneyland
Paris and I was at Shanghai Disney Resort.And we met in Hong Kong, briefly. And then,
in the autumn of 2014, he was appointed asthe General Manager of Shanghai Disney Resort.
And, you know, I have a home in France, sowe had a natural connection there. And yeah,
(02:30):
we hit it off famously from the very beginning,and he's still a great friend.
OF (02:33):
That's great. And of course, you would have been behind the scenes of allowing him
to do the podcast with us last season anyway,right?
MK (02:42):
I can't comment. OF
it there, but what is your actual title atDisney?
I'm the Vice President of Public Affairs and Communications for Shanghai Disney Resort.
To help coordinate our strategies and tacticsaround building, enhancing and then also protecting
(03:02):
the reputation of the brand of Shanghai DisneyResort. And to put that in the temporal context,
from the very beginning when we first announcedthe project, it’s a major joint venture;
through to the development; the pre-opening;the grand opening; and then the post-opening
operation period, five years of operations.OF: Well, we'll be getting into that later
(03:26):
on.MK: OK.
OF (03:27):
Before we jump in, what is the object that you have brought, which in some way exemplifies
your life here in China?MK: Well I thought really long and hard on
this. And it's not going to be something that'sgoing to be exciting, but it's something that
everyone can visualise.OF: OK.
MK (03:41):
A coin. OF
A RMB1 coin. OF
It is rare. I've been in China for many years, and coins have been part of my experience,
because obviously we all use - or used touse - hard currency. It has a peony flower
- which is the unofficial flower of China- on one side, and it has one 元 [Yuán]
(04:04):
on the other side, and 中华人民共和国[Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó] written
in Chinese. So much of China's developmenthas been focused on its economic planning.
The purchasing power of the Chinese obviouslyhas increased dramatically, certainly since
I've been here. The value of the Renminbihas changed, and as it changes that's also
(04:25):
changed China's development story, sometimesup, sometimes down, but broadly up. The way
people use money - what they purchase - haschanged dramatically, and people have built
careers and reputations and businesses allaround understanding that. And then now this
is more like something that you put in a jarat home. The people are using different forms
(04:46):
of money, obviously digital currency. Andwith COVID-19 it's becoming actually a very
smart way to transact, because you don't haveto touch something.
OF (04:53):
Right. MK
know, it represents a lot about China.OF: Great. And in terms of your life, does
it have a personal resonance in that case?MK: You know, I've been in China now 22 years.
The majority of my career in my adult lifehas been in China. And so we've I've been
successful in my career - hopefully a littlebit, I have - and financially, I have to thank
(05:14):
China for that, and China's opening and reform.OF: Well, we're going to jump into our conversation,
but I should note immediately that I'm quitetrepidatious about this one. Because you're
someone who is very polite - you’re Canadian,after all - but I know that you are going
to be hard for me to get answers out of. I'man expert winkler. But I think as much winkling
(05:35):
as I'm going to do, you are going to parrythe winkle pretty carefully. Because it's
part of your job, right? So you deal witha lot of communications, you mentioned straight
away about reputation management, how doesthat work on a day-to-day basis at Disneyland?
MK (05:49):
Well, I think every brand has natural attributes. You know, people say it takes
a lifetime to build a reputation, and justa moment to lose it.
OF (05:57):
Right. MK
it goes back to the 1920s. So in that sense,you know, you start from a position of advantage.
But obviously it's more complicated than that,because we're not just bringing a brand, we’re
bringing an experience into China. And it'sin a new country. And we opened this resort
for the first time in a more complex environment,it’s the first time in the age of social
(06:21):
media, the scale was very large. And the familiaritywith the brand was different than in other
markets. So my job is to help navigate thecomplexities of the market, to emphasise the
positive attributes of the brand, to workwith other teams to ensure that we build success
into the how we represent the brand in thismarket, rather than try to fix mistakes. A
(06:46):
preemptive, broad, culturally-sensitive andrelevant strategy to make the brand relevant
for this market. And you know, the consumerat the end of the day, consumers here are
very savvy, they understand a brand's attributes.They want to experience the same quality of
those attributes as any other consumer inany other marketplace. And that's what we
(07:07):
strive to do.OF: How did you fall into this line of work?
MK (07:11):
I studied history and English literature - and then law - at university in Canada.
And I practised corporate commercial and thenhuman rights law for several years. And then
I joined the Canadian diplomatic service witha focus on trade promotion. So in Canada at
that time, the ministries of Foreign Affairsand International Trade were merged. And so
(07:36):
I was part of the Foreign Service, with afocus on promoting Canadian exports into the
Chinese market; and inward investment promotion,so investment from China into Canada. And
I had an interest in China. And at that time,it seemed - this was kind of mid 90s - that
there was not as much interest in foreignservice officers in coming to a market like
(07:56):
China, there was more interest in Europe andmore traditional diplomatic postings. For
me, it was clearly a number one choice.OF: Well, where did that come from? Where
did you get your interest in China at thatpoint?
I had grown up in an international environment. I actually was born in England to parents
of Scottish and English descent. And we weremoved to Montreal because my father was in
(08:17):
the aerospace industry, and he had an assignmentin Montreal. So from a young age, I grew up
in a French-speaking area of North America.Eventually stayed in Canada, eventually became
a Canadian citizen. My father transitionedto the airline industry, and free tickets
are an important feature of the compensationpackage for family members. And so I had the
(08:41):
opportunity to travel on free air passes aroundthe world. And so by the time I finished university,
I'd seen a lot of the world. And so I hadjust this kind of multicultural upbringing,
and I always thought - even though I had pursueda career in law initially - that I wanted
to see the world more broadly, and to workoverseas. As I was thinking about what a career
(09:02):
outside of Canada could look like, my heartactually pulled me towards Latin America.
Great culture, fascinating history, complicatedpolitics, beautiful landscapes and geography,
and just so diverse and exotic. But a difficultplace to build a career, if you have a sense
of ambition. You can, and particularly incertain industries like natural resources.
(09:25):
But when I went to China, I saw a lot of thesame excitement and fascination that a 20-something-year-old
would be interested in and would be drawnto. But I also saw a real potential economically,
and from a career perspective. And so whenI eventually joined the Foreign Service, that
kind of had the right alignment of everythingfor me. I always say to friends, it's akin
(09:45):
- from a career perspective - to if I hadbought Apple stock when it was Steve Jobs
in his garage building computers. I took agamble on investing my time - to learn a language,
and embrace a culture, and change my careerpath - because I believed in China, and China's
future.OF: Yes, that's exactly what I feel like with
(10:05):
people who came in the 90s. So what was itlike when you first came, and what were you
doing back then?MK: When I came originally, it was not easy
to use local currency. You could not makepurchases in most locations. You had to use
friendship stores, even in big cities likeBeijing.
OF (10:20):
And it was in Beijing that you were, right? You first came to Beijing.
MK (10:23):
Yes. My posting in Beijing was in the trade section of the Canadian Embassy. And
you know, it was exciting because it was theage of big national trade missions. That was
the time when that was a successful businessmodel, and it wasn't as easy to get access
to local companies and local regulators.OF: So when you're dealing with relations
at that level - we're talking about the headof state - what does that entail? Do you have
(10:48):
to get really involved in a lot of the redtape, or were you just getting the programmes
together?MK: Well I was involved in, I think, five
Prime Minister visits. Trade missions, allof them trade missions. And usually what happens
is - if you work in an embassy - you get assignedto do one part of the programme. So in 2001,
the programme in Beijing included a statebanquet. So typically - from a protocol perspective
(11:12):
- on arrival, the Chinese side would hosta state banquet to welcome the foreign leader.
And then our ‘Team Canada’ model had areciprocal banquet hosted by the Canadian
Prime Minister for Chinese counterparts ingovernment and in business, and then to leverage
that banquet to invite the Canadian businessesthat were part of the mission to come and
(11:34):
participate in essentially what would be amajor networking opportunity. So in 2001,
I was assigned the responsibility to organisea dinner. But a dinner for approximately 2,700
people at The Great Hall of the People, whichinvolved about six months of preparation.
I think it's still the largest foreign governmenthosted event ever held at the Great Hall of
(11:55):
the People.OF: Oh wow.
Because after that, they started to… The trade mission concept changed. So the
largesse of those kinds of missions becameless popular. And the banquet was extremely
complex, because it obviously was much morethan a dinner. There were multiple VIP and
VVIP receptions; there were cultural performances;there were multiple arrival points at The
(12:17):
Great Hall depending on which level of invitationyou received; there were incredible security
protocols, because this is essentially China'sparliament building. So it involved a lot
of negotiation with relevant ministries onboth sides. A lot of fun. Stressful. And,
you know, at the end of the day, it's a dinner.OF: Right. It just reminds me of someone's
(12:38):
wedding, where you realise “Yeah, it’sjust a party”. But this is expanded on such
a huge level. And you're in the firing line,because if you get it wrong, they're gonna
blame your department.MK: I was definitely in the firing line. And
many others. I mean, a great team effort tohelp make it work.
OF (12:52):
Well you mentioned the team just then, it makes me want to jump forward. Let's miss
out a little bit of your story, and we'llcome back to it. Let's jump forward to today
then, where you're at Disney. What lessonsdid you learn from those days that you can
apply now?MK: I think years in market - you know, sometimes
making mistakes yourself, and sometimes seeingothers make mistakes - teaches you a lot about
(13:14):
culture. And also helps hone your skills andyour instincts. I'd say there are a few things
that that I definitely focus on. One is alwaystrying to understand the perspective of the
stakeholders that I'm working with. Especiallywhen there's a regulator involved. The government,
you know, has certain focuses; the communityhas certain needs; and then the company has
(13:35):
certain advantages. Where do you find thatalignment between those different competing
interests? And I don't just mean in big projects.Even if you don't necessarily agree with the
agenda of the person sitting opposite you,if you don't understand what that agenda is
- and you can't come up with some common ground,and next step - then the meeting doesn't take
you anywhere. And, you know, sometimes youwon’t get the second meeting. So always
(13:56):
try to do a little bit of homework and understand- based on your own knowledge and experience,
but also your team - what is the agenda ofthe team that you're meeting with, or the
stakeholder? And how can you help them besuccessful, while also delivering on your
own objectives? That's the sweet spot of successhere. Secondly - and this perhaps is more
relevant in this market - is understandingthe decision-making ability of the person
(14:18):
sitting opposite you. It's quite common - Ithink more in our western world - to believe
that when you sit down and you have a discussionwith someone, that if you're trying to reach
consensus on something, you find common groundby conceding some points and holding on other
points. That works well if you're engagingwith someone who has the same level of ability
to make those decisions. Often, people showtheir hand too early. You know, sometimes
(14:44):
the person sitting opposite you wants to reachan agreement, but actually then has to report
back on the discussion to someone who's moresenior, who then may press the reset button.
And you've already shown a hand, so you haveto go to your second position. Patience - understanding
the shared and the differing agendas of individuals- is important in anything here.
(15:07):
Well, let's go back to your story. We were talking about Beijing. But here we are
in Shanghai. So when did you move from Beijingto Shanghai?
MK (15:15):
I officially moved in July of 2001. I had made the decision because Shanghai in
2001 was probably the hottest economy in theworld. It was double digit GDP growth year
on year on year. Not just double, like 12-14%.And, you know, the physical infrastructure
(15:37):
that is so iconic today - the 陆家嘴 [Lùjiāzuǐ]浦东 [Pǔdōng] skyline - was still relatively
early in its build-out. And I got to see alot of that. And I kind of wanted to stay,
and test the private sector waters. So I wasoffered an opportunity to work for an American
public affairs - and trade and investment- consulting firm called APCO, to manage their
Shanghai office. And in fact, I could probablydo more for companies because there were some
(16:01):
limitations of what you could do in a TradeCommissioner Service. I could work with companies
in a broader range of sectors; I could workwith companies from different countries; I
could also work with other government agencies;and I could work for Chinese companies. You
know, if you were a smart consultant, youcould find the right opportunities where there
(16:22):
was the most potential. And that's kind ofwhat myself - and a great team at APCO - did,
over the years that followed.OF: And then this is what eventually led you
to Disney, right? They were one of your clientsat that time.
Yeah, I started working with Disney about 10-11 years ago, and officially joined in
2011. And it was just a small team at thattime. We were tasked with building up a team
(16:45):
that could help support the development andconstruction, and start to build up awareness
of what we were going to create and open.OF: And so, what most people nowadays will
remember - when it comes to communicationsand Disneyland - is when Disneyland reopened
after the Coronavirus. That was somethingwhere I remember hearing about it. To what
(17:06):
extent were you involved in that process?MK: My team was involved heavily, obviously.
Because of media and, you know, the publicannouncement. A very emotional time. I think
- this isn't unique to Disney, it isn't uniqueto China, it isn’t unique to you and me
- that Coronavirus has been hugely impactfulon people's lives. In ways that I don't think
(17:30):
any of us realised in the 21st century couldhappen. And the journey of the pandemic is
different in every country. And obviously,it's well known that in China, it was an earlier
journey. And in some markets a later journey,and some markets a much longer journey, more
painful. But everyone has been negativelyimpacted. And there was so much negative news,
(17:54):
and so much tragedy. And the world was kindof ready for some hint that we could turn
a corner, globally. And because our role inthe community is to create happiness and joy
for people, what’s needed most at a timeof challenge like this, is what we were unable
to offer. And so when we were able to finallymeet the conditions, and were confident that
(18:20):
it was the right time to reopen - even thoughtentatively, and with a lot of safety and
health measures in place - we fully believedthat that was an opportunity to inspire, and
to help show people that there was a lightat the end of the tunnel. And that was a tremendous
burden, a tremendous pressure, but a tremendousopportunity. And so we were nervous, we worked
hard, but we were also excited about the opportunityto help turn the page. Because it was just
(18:45):
the right time for people to get some goodnews. And we were able to do it in a responsible
way. So we were very pleased with the result.OF: And just hearing you talk about it, I
can feel the emotion. Do you count that asone of the highlights of your time in Disneyland
Shanghai?MK: It certainly will be a memory, not just
for from my time in Shanghai though, but itwill be a highlight of my time in China. And
(19:10):
my whole life, I think.OF: What other highlights stand out that come
close?MK: I think when I moved to Shanghai was also
very exciting. Beijing was wonderful, I lovedthe experience. I still love Beijing. But
when I came to Shanghai, it felt like home.I've learned to take more risks in life. You
(19:31):
know, when you come on a diplomatic posting,there's a lot of looked after for you. And
taking the risk of stepping out of that bubble,that position of privilege that's lent you
- the status, the apartment, the role - takingthe risk to try something outside of my comfort
zone was kind of scary. But at the same time,it was really exhilarating, and exciting,
(19:54):
intoxicating almost. And hopefully - eventhough I’ll leave China - I’ll take a
risk somewhere else, and do something elseand, and know that you're always the better
for the risk that you take. No matter whetheryou fail or you succeed. Hopefully I'll succeed
though.OF: And you mentioned leaving China. So is
there an end game? Like, where do you seeyour future?
(20:14):
I don't know. I'm quite happy living in China. And the tale of China, it ebbs and
flows - its success, its economy, its relations- but I have wonderful friends here. My community,
my life, is here. So I don't have any endgame. Now, practically speaking, there probably
will be a day when I retire to some warm,comfortable climate where I escape from the
(20:39):
hustle and bustle of a big city. You know,I bought a home in France years ago. And so
I have a parallel life - that’s not Canada,and not the UK, and not China - where I spend
time on holidays. And there’s a communityof friends that I have that’s completely
disconnected from my profession, from theplaces I grew up, or the places I work. And
(21:02):
I love that escapism. And so that's an option,some days. Maybe the south of France wouldn't
be the worst choice.OF: Right.
I do know of friends - older than me - who have spent 20+ years, 30+years in Asia, and
have retired to another country. Sometimesit's hard in China - for regulatory reasons,
(21:23):
visas, and healthcare, and other reasons - youdecide to leave, even if it's your home for
many years. And when you're in your 60s andyou make a decision to buy in a place that
you don't know, first of all it's harder tosay “Hey, I made a mistake” when you've
committed at that age. It takes longer toknow whether it's a place you want to live.
And so I think for me, having that parallellife - that allows me to know what that community
(21:50):
is, and whether it's a place I'd like to liveone day - having the time over many years
to do that has been a good experience.OF: Yeah. Smart. Well I guess if it hadn't
been, then you would have been selling upand trying a different country by now. So
yeah, seven years later, it looks like it'sworking out.
Right, exactly. OF
going to have to figure out what that placeis. Well, thank you so much, Murray. On to
(22:13):
Part 2.MK: OK.
[Part 2]OF: The 10 questions, they start here. So
I ask these questions to every guest. We willstart with Question 1. What is your favourite
China-related fact?MK: The word ‘Shanghai’ means ‘up from
the ocean’. 上 [Shàng] means ‘up’,and 海 [hǎi] means ‘ocean’.
OF (22:32):
Yeah. MK
without ever stopping and thinking "Why isit called Shanghai?” So this is one big
river delta. It's just silt deposit over hundredsand thousands of years. And we're about maybe
a metre or less above sea level. So literally,this is a city which hasn't just risen vertically
(22:54):
in the last 20 years - as we see the beautifulskyline of 陆家嘴 [Lùjiāzuǐ] - it's
a physical creation that has risen up fromthe ocean. It's still being created. If you've
ever seen those… Maybe when you land at浦东 [Pǔdōng] airport and looked out at
that coastline, there are mud flats that juststretch out into infinity. And the water is
a very brown colour, it's silt coming downthe Yangtse river and being deposited in the
(23:18):
East China Sea. So Shanghai is continuingto be created.
Wow. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
MK (23:27):
If I were to choose a couple of words that should be part of the English language…
厉害 [Lìhài], because it's a word that'sboth positive and negative. You know, somebody
who is 很厉害 [hěn lìhài] can be reallystrong. And it can be pejorative, it can be
quite negative. You know, “His attitudeis 太厉害 [tài lìhài]”, he's too strict,
he’s too strong, he's not flexible enough.Or his personality. But, you know, you can
(23:53):
also describe someone who's 厉害 [lìhài]as really good at something, who’s really
got great competency or skill. It can be verydifferent meanings depending on the context.
OF (24:02):
Yeah. The contextuality of it is so rich. Which 厉害 [lìhài] are you, do you think?
MK (24:07):
If you asked one of the people who works with me, they might say the negative one.
I like to think that I'm both. And neither.That I'm just me.
OF (24:17):
Yeah. The second thing? MK
the literal context, means disgusting.OF: Oh, ‘dislike’, right.
MK (24:25):
Yes. But if a girl were to say to you “你很讨厌 [Nǐ hěn tǎoyàn]” they're
saying it in a positive way.OF: Really?
Almost in a flirtatious way. OF
It’s a sad story.MK: No I'm sure that someone does. I'm sure
that someone does.OF: That's great, thank you for that. What
is your favourite destination within China?MK: 平遥 [Píngyáo], 平遥古城 [Píngyáo
(24:48):
Gǔchéng]. I think maybe others have saidthat too.
OF (24:50):
No. MK
to anybody. You know, it's a walled city - aboutsix square kilometres - it rises up out of
the agricultural plains of 山西 [Shānxī]Province. And it is a tremendous experience,
it feels like you're stepping into a 明 [Míng]Dynasty movie. And within that walled city…
It's a protected UNESCO World Heritage site,so there's really no development on the outside
(25:13):
of the walled city. So it’s mostly justfarmland. Of course, there are a few tourist
things that have popped up. But within thewalled city, there really are no cars. You
can rent a bicycle, you can bike around thecity on the wall. There are lots of traditional
hotels, and restaurants, and great food, andgreat people. And it’s just a wonderful
experience.OF: The photos I saw from my friend's holiday
(25:34):
there did show a mass of tourists, though.So that's the one downside, right?
MK (25:38):
Well I was lucky enough to go 20 years ago.
OF (25:41):
Ah. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the
least?MK: The most is the excitement of every day.
Every day, something is happening, I learnsomething, I'm challenged in some way, I also
feel like it can contribute in some way. Ijust feel like it's where everything's happening.
(26:02):
So that's what I would miss the most. WhatI would miss the least is the fast pace. I
don't know if that makes any sense. But whenI do get out of the country - and when I go
to my comfort zone, to France or somewhereelse - you know, it's really nice to not have
a fast pace. And every so often you need tokind of recharge your batteries, I think that's
obvious. And the problem is, when I'm thereI miss the fast pace after a couple of weeks;
(26:27):
when I'm here after a few months, I need abreak from the fast pace. So I'm never going
to be completely happy in either.OF: Thank you for saying that so well. Is
there anything that still surprises you aboutlife in China?
MK (26:39):
Yes. I can't tell you what they are, because it’ll be tomorrow’s surprise. But there
are definitely things that surprise me. Butsometimes, surprise me in special ways. I'll
give you kind of a unique example. I rememberwhen I first came here, you know, I had the
opportunity to travel domestically, and thiswas like 27 years ago. And in those days,
you got a boarding pass, you went to a smallairport terminal. And then you would be bussed
(27:02):
out - or you'd walk out - to the aircrafton the tarmac. It wasn't anything like it
is now. And even though you had a reservedseat, you know, there was a scrum to get onto
the flight. And I mean, it was a rough scrum.And you knew you had your seat, in theory.
Sometimes you had to remind people who gotyour seat that it was your seat, it would
always work out. And then, the same thingon an escalator, everybody would just push
(27:27):
in. And there are a lot of reasons for that,and it's not a criticism. But I remember,
it was like about eight years ago, I was onan escalator going up to the second floor
in my office building at the time. And I lookedup and I noticed that everyone was standing
to the right. Everybody, without exception.And it just made me realise, everything you
(27:49):
thought you knew was different. Because peopleare progressing, and society is changing so
quickly, and so dynamically. And it's justthe smallest of things, but it's exciting
to see it. And it's exciting to be part ofit. And I kind of almost felt like I was the
one who was kind of standing on the wrongside. So your perspective changes.
OF (28:06):
Yes. And when you see it - as a stark image, like you said - then it does hit home.
MK (28:12):
Yeah. OF
to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?MK: M on the Bund.
OF (28:19):
Oh, there you go. MK
as long as I'm here. I almost feel like it'snamed after me because ‘M’ for Murray.
It's not for me, it’s for Michelle who ownsthe restaurant. But I love the restaurant,
I love the location, I love the cuisine, Ilove the branding, I love the feel of the
place. I also love 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù],it's just a beautiful area. And 安福路
(28:42):
[Ānfú Lù], 湖南路 [Húnán Lù], 兴国路[Xīngguó Lù], that whole area. So I spend
a lot of time at the little cafes and restaurantsthere, when I have a chance to come back to
the 浦西 [Pǔxī] side of Shanghai.OF: Yes. I think that's where we first met,
in one of those cafes there, right?MK: That's right.
What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
MK (28:59):
I bought a 1920s house on 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù] years ago.
OF (29:03):
Damn you! You’re one of those people who got in early enough.
MK (29:06):
I made the brave decision to buy the top of a 1920s house - a standalone house, the
top part of that house - in about 2005. Andlived in it for seven years, and had a wonderful
experience. And then I sold it. And you knowthe old adage ‘Buy low, sell high’ definitely
applies to real estate in Shanghai.OF: You are not winning any friends right
(29:28):
now. At least you've given me that coin.MK: Yes, yes. You have your coin, yes.
OF (29:36):
Now the hardest question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
MK (29:40):
It's a great question actually, because I communicate more by stickers than by text.
So there's a series of WeChat stickers whichis called 小刘 [Xiǎo Liú], Little Liu.
OF (29:52):
Yeah. MK
of characters. There’s a duck, and there'sa cat, and I think there are a couple of other
characters that occasionally make an appearance.And I just think that the designs are brilliant.
And it's just super fun, and a little bitnaughty. And yeah, that's me.
Now, here's a funny thing. When I interviewed a diplomat in Season 01 - he worked for the
(30:16):
New Zealand consulate here - he was alwayscareful about stickers, because they can be
misconstrued. And when you give me this cheekynaughtiness, that's kind of what he was slightly
worried about. So he doesn't use WeChat stickers.Do you think if you were still a diplomat,
you would have these stickers?MK: I think these are cheeky and naughty,
but they're not even close to crossing theline of being inappropriate. Although there
(30:39):
are some others that are probably less appropriate.I think if I was still a diplomat, I would
be more careful about using WeChat.OF: At all.
MK (30:46):
And I would certainly be careful about what I used. But I think these are harmless
enough. I think the world has changed a lotas well.
OF (30:53):
Yeah. MK
primitively, and yet in a more sophisticatedway through things like videos and photos.
Yeah. MK
gifs, and things like that.OF: Yes. Let's go into the societal history
about hieroglyphics, because that's what we'redoing really, using gifs and using emojis,
right?MK: Right, right.
(31:13):
Very good, these are super cute. MK
a great range of stickers. All of my stickersare 小刘 [Xiǎo Liú] now.
Beautiful. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
MK (31:26):
Yikes, I haven't been the KTV in a while. OF
Yeah, well you know, times have changed. OF
Times have changed. OF
There are a few. But I guess the one that I like to sing - if I can sing with somebody
else, because it's probably more known asa female song - 后来 [Hòulái], 刘若英
[Liú Ruòyīng].OF: OK.
It’s a song by a Taiwanese singer that probably is 15-20 years old now. And when
(31:53):
I learned Chinese - and I tried to improvemy colloquial Chinese - I did it by trying
to listen to more Chinese pop music. It’sa great way to entertain yourself and learn
a language. And it's just one of the earlysongs that you know… It's kind of just a
tune that stuck with me, and gnawed at me,and stayed with me. And so you have to learn
one song. Right, you need your karaoke song.So that was my song, because nobody would
(32:15):
have expected I could sing that song, right?OF: Ah.
It’s not like 对面的女孩看过来 [Duìmiàn de nǚhái kàn guòlái], which
is very common.OF: I have learnt 对面的女孩看过来
[Duìmiàn de nǚhái kàn guòlái], becauseit's the easiest for me.
It's a fun song too. OF
Yeah. OF
or sources of information do you rely on?MK: I try to look at everything I can. So,
(32:36):
South China Morning Post is a great way toget some of the mainland news in a less filtered
way. Strangely enough, I like Shanghai Daily,their Metro News is great, it's a great way
to get a fix on local news. Sinocism is great.OF: Yeah.
上海发布 [Shànghǎi Fābù], the Shanghai Information Office. Everybody should
have 上海发布 [Shànghǎi Fābù] on theirWeChat as a subscription. And you know, the
(32:59):
best news I get is just what I see and hear.OF: Yeah, exactly. Well, very good, thank
you so much Murray.MK: It's my pleasure.
OF (33:07):
The only thing left for me to ask you is, out of everyone you know in China - and
this could include your 20 years experience- who do you think I should interview for
the next season of Mosaic of China?MK: It’s a good question, Oscar. There are
lots of choices, actually. But I thought Iwould try and orient you in a different direction,
and try someone maybe from a different industry.And so I would like to recommend Diana Xu,
(33:30):
Xu Jidan. She is a lady from Northeast China- from 吉林 [Jílín] Province - who in
2012 was crowned Miss Universe China.OF: Oh, wow.
MK (33:41):
So she's a beauty queen. But she's a very smart lady as well. She went to Las Vegas
and represented China in the Miss Universepageant, and won Best National Costume.
OF (33:54):
Oh. MK
experience as a young woman - in a uniqueplace, at a unique time - and then obviously
came back to China, fulfilled her duties forone year, and then has gone on to build her
own career and business.OF: That's great. Well, once again, thanks
for your time Murray.MK: Pleasure.
(34:16):
[Outro]OF: So I mentioned that there had been another
diplomat on Mosaic of China, but I forgotto name him. Well let me correct that, it
was Tom Barker from Season 01 Episode 25.And it struck me that, unbelievably, Tom and
I talked about a fictional diplomat by thename of ‘Murray’’ in his episode. I
wish I had figured that out a little earlierthan right now, although perhaps the real
(34:40):
Murray from today’s episode wouldn’t havebeen too amused by the comparison.
Regular listeners’ ears might have prickedup when Murray mentioned that his favourite
KTV song was NOT 对面的女孩看过来[Duìmiàn de nǚhái kàn guòlái]. Because
it was the favourite for two previous guests,Stephane de Montgros, the events company CEO
from Season 01 Episode 19, and Vladimir Djurovic,the brand naming expert from Season 02 Episode
(35:06):
13.
And the final fun connection came when Murraywas explaining the how the phrase “你很讨厌
[Nǐ hěn tǎoyàn]” can be used flirtatiously.This reminded me of the kind of Shanghainese
female that Nick Yu, the playwright from Season01 Episode 13 was describing with his favourite
word in Chinese, 作 [Zuò].
As always, type ‘Mosaic of China’ intoInstagram, Facebook or WeChat, to see all
(35:31):
the accompanying images for today’s show,spanning Murray’s whole time in China as
well as his parallel life in France. And headto the website to follow the transcript from
the conversation, or to subscribe to the PREMIUMversion of the show. I covered a lot more
with Murray than I could fit into this regularversion, and here are some clips to prove
it.
(35:51):
[Clip 1]MK: I was here when SARS reared its ugly head,
and that was 2003 in the spring.[Clip 2]
Which do you prefer, Beijing or Shanghai? MK
Errrr… OK. [Clip 3]
MK (36:04):
There was a message on my phone with a draft press release to close the resort. Two
days later I was on a plane back.OF: Yeah.
[Clip 4]MK: Disney has been in China since the 1920s.
Snow White premiered in Shanghai and in 南京[Nánjīng]
[Clip 5]MK: Even if you're not a person that generally
gets emotional, sometimes a little show helps.[Clip 6]
We talk every day - obviously, he’s my brother, he's my twin actually - so…
OF (36:26):
What? MK
Do they actually know there's two of you, right?
MK (36:29):
They do, they do. [End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. I’m still in touch with
the person who referred Murray to the show,Philippe Gas from Season 01. But Philippe’s
extremely busy these days working on a USD8Billion entertainment project in Saudi Arabia,
(36:49):
so I couldn’t find my way into his calendarto record a follow-up. Instead, I’m including
a catch-up from one of the other most popularguests from last Season, which was Emily Madge,
the sealife conservation expert from Episode14 of Season 01. So please enjoy listening
to her voice once again, and I'll see younext week with the last new guest of Season
(37:09):
02!
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello!
EM (37:15):
Hello, how are you? OF
Do I? Thank you. OF
yours was one of the most popular episodesof Season 01. At that time, you were based
(37:39):
in the Shanghai Sea Life centre, right?EM: Correct, yes.
OF (37:44):
So tell me about where I find you today. EM
to Bangkok. So I'm currently based in SeaLife Bangkok Aquarium, doing the same job
just in a different region. And loving it,loving my life in Thailand.
(38:05):
I can tell by the way you are smiling. Your face looks tanned, your hair looks blonde.
EM (38:10):
You know, I've been hitting those beaches, checking it out, it’s great.
OF (38:16):
Your move was planned, wasn't it? EM
little bit in China. And then fortunately,I got to Thailand just before the borders
closed, and everything. So I actually leftChina for vacation in January to go to New
Zealand. And I came here a bit sooner thanexpected. And my company helped me move my
(38:37):
stuff from there. So I've never actually beenback to Shanghai since I left.
Right, I was wondering whether I'd missed your goodbye party.
EM (38:44):
No, you would have got an invite. OF
episode was the huge job that you and yourteam undertook, in terms of relocating a couple
of beluga whales from Shanghai to Iceland.EM: Yes.
OF (39:02):
So the obvious question is, what is the update with the whales?
EM (39:06):
So the whales are doing really well. They went straight into a kind of holding facility
that was indoors, just to get them acclimatedto everything. And then they've been released
out into the bay, just practising recall.We fed them up, so they had a nice layer of
fat ready to go over for the colder waters.But there are also other factors. So for example,
(39:30):
the whales, they breach the surface to breathe.In Iceland - when it's stormy, and they're
not used to having to breach - they’re havingto acclimatise to their new environment. We've
had some wonderful videos where they've beento the bottom, and been picking up starfish,
and bringing them to the keepers, out of curiosity.And a lovely, lovely video with both of them
(39:51):
just breaching the surface and just sat therefeeling the rain on their skin. Obviously,
the first time they felt rain. Very heartwarmingto watch.
OF (39:59):
Amazing. EM
And their future will always be within that semi-wild sanctuary. Or will they ever
be released beyond that?EM: No, it'll always be in that sanctuary.
They've just been in captivity for too long,it's too much of a risk. They don't have those
kind of natural instincts to survive in thewild. It must just be a different world for
(40:20):
them, to just have constant change in environmentall the time.
Yes. I think about those beluga whales going to their natural environment. And then
I look at you and you're this kind of Welshmermaid, and you were stuck on land here in
Shanghai, and it now looks like you've beentransplanted into your natural environment.
EM (40:38):
That's how it feels for me, that’s how it feels. In close proximity to the ocean
and to beaches. I did struggle, I did. I'mnot a city girl. And I did feel that kind
of city vibe in Shanghai. As wonderful asit was, and as wonderful as the people were
that I met, I am happier closer to the sea.OF: Yeah. Thank you, Emily. I'm really happy
(41:02):
that we had someone who represented somethingso unusual in the first season. When I met
you at that party, I knew that I had to getyou on to the podcast. And now that’s it,
you're stuck in the Mosaic for ever and ever.EM: I'm happy to be a part of it. And it's
lovely to catch up with you. Thank you somuch for having me on here.
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