October 17, 2022 • 47 mins
Some people still have the outdated image in their heads of China as a country of grim sweatshops and cheap manual labour. In fact, China is the country which boasts the largest number of robots deployed in the world. And that makes it a prime location for one of the newest category of industrial robot: the 'cobot', or collaborative robot. Today's episode is with Andrew Pether, who has spent a decade in the field of robotics engineering in China, and over eight years working at the global vanguard in the world of collaborative robots: Universal Robots. So he is perfectly placed to observe the world of innovation and competition in this unique space in China. The episode also includes catch-up interviews with: Michael Kinsey from Season 02 Episode 15 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-25-michael-kinsey and Srinivas Yanamandra from Season 01 Episode 15 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-15-srinivas-yanamandra Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:33 - Part 1 24:12 - Part 2 35:13 - Outro 39:05 - Catch-Up Interview [1] 42:53 - Catch-Up Interview [2] Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-07-andrew-pether Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: ‘Repurpose-ability,’ baby.
AP (00:05):
Yes!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We’ve got a great episode today, as wellas two catch-up chats with previous guests
at the end, so I will keep today’s introshort. Just a quick heads-up to non-native
(00:28):
English speakers today that there will bea few - but only a few - technical expressions
in today’s show, so head to the Mosaic ofChina website to follow the transcript, or
watch the YouTube version which has captionsrunning alongside the audio and graphics.
So if you hear us use the word ‘torque’it’s not T-A-L-K, it’s T-O-R-Q-U-E. Similarly,
(00:51):
‘brake’ is not B-R-E-A-K, it’s B-R-A-K-E.And we mention AI, which of course stands
for Artificial Intelligence.
Speaking of the YouTube version of the show,when today’s guest introduces his object,
you’ll hear in the audio version that thereare some long pauses. This is not only because
(01:14):
I wanted you to have a sense of what was happeningin real time, but also because it corresponds
with a video that I took with my phone. Soit’s worth dipping into the YouTube version
if you want to see what’s happening at thatpoint of the recording.
Alright, power up! Let’s start the show.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Andrew.
(01:36):
Thank you for having me. OF
That is correct. It’s… ‘Son of Peter’ is the original derivation.
OF (01:42):
Is that right? AP
Well we've got a lot in common, because my father is called Peter. So if you're ‘Pether’,
then maybe so am I. Whenever I have a Britsitting opposite me, I'm always more conscious
of my British accent. How British do you thinkyou are, are you like many many many generations
British?AP: Yes, quite a long way back, there’s
nothing interesting. The 23andMe came back…OF: Oh right.
AP (02:06):
Like, British, Scandinavian, all kind of the same sort of thing that's been washing
around in Britain for a millennium.OF: Yes. And the person who we know each other
through is our mutual friend Nick Sherwood,another Brit with an equally British name.
Shout out to Nick. Well, the first questionI ask everyone sitting in that chair is, what
(02:29):
object did you bring that in some way typifiesyour life here in China?
I brought a robot with me. OF
you've dragged in was. So why don't you openit, and let's have a look.
Sure. OF
object anyone has brought.AP: OK yeah it’s 33 kilogrammes.
OF (02:52):
I could actually give you a hand here, but I'm just sitting here watching you do
it.AP: No, no, don’t worry.
This is great audio. AP
Oooh. AP
Right. Well this is quite elaborate. So why don't you first of all explain the different
components that we're looking at right now?AP: Sure. So probably the easiest-to-identify
(03:15):
part is the the arm here. So this is a collaborativeindustrial robot arm. This is the smallest
one that we make, the larger ones, definitely…this would not be feasible. But this one,
it’s just about manageable to take it around.So we use this setup for customer demos. With
this kind of lightweight of a product, itrevolutionises the way you can do those sorts
of demos and interactions with new customers.Because if you've got something that's absolutely
(03:40):
enormous, there's no way you can take it intosomeone's office meeting room, just plonk
it down, and show him how it works. So it'squite an advantage.
Absolutely. And then connected to that is..?
AP (03:50):
So this silver box here is the controller. Everywhere you see one of these blue plastic
caps, there is a motor, gearbox, brake, allother stuff inside there. And then they connect
with one cable back through to this controller.OF: OK, then there's a cable connected to..?
This is the ‘teach pendant’. OF
I don't know why it's called a pendant, it's not like you would ever… Actually no,
(04:15):
some of them which only have buttons on them,maybe you would wear them around your neck,
and that's why they called it a pendant. Butthis is essentially an iPad with an emergency
stop button on it. So it's got a nice graphicalprogramming interface. If you intuitively
know how to use a touchscreen - from yoursmartphone or from your iPad - then you should
be pretty good to do with this thing as well.OF: Which means, are you going to do a practical
(04:36):
demonstration right now?AP: I think I should.
OF (04:38):
I’m so excited. Even though I knew you were in robots, I didn't think you would bring
a robot. So let's see how it goes.AP: OK.
Maybe while we're waiting for it to boot up, I can see the logo - I can see the name
of the company - so maybe you can introducethe company that you work for right now.
AP (04:53):
Sure, yes. So the company is called Universal Robots. We're kind of the original creators
of this sub-genre of industrial robotics: collaborative robots. It was started by a (04:59):
undefined
few guys out of university in Denmark, theystarted the project in 2005, released the
first robot in 2008, and we've been iteratingon those designs ever since. We're now part
of the Teradyne group, which is a Boston company.But yeah, as I said, we were the first ones
(05:22):
to make this type of robot commercially successful,and there must be 2-3-400 companies making
very similar products now. So it's a formof flattery, right?
OF (05:33):
Yes. AP
things that resemble our products, on theoutside at least. But the inner workings,
I think we still have a fairly superior offeringin that way.
And what is your role at Universal Robots? AP
Applications team in Asia. So I've been withthis company for eight years now, and I've
(05:54):
done a number of different roles. And it'sall been focused around how our product works,
and how it can be deployed into differentscenarios and manufacturing facilities.
Well it's your job to explain and demonstrate these robots, so I'm going to put you to the
test now. So is it ready, has it been firedup?
AP (06:13):
It has, yes. Let me just… OF
OK. So if you look at this, you'll notice it looks a bit like an arm. So it needs to
be integrated with its surroundings, it needsto have something put on the end of the robot
arm here as well.OF: I see. So this is just the base setup,
and then you can put other things on top ofit later on.
Yes. OF
And that makes it incredibly flexible. So this could be used for assembling something,
(06:38):
packaging something, picking something upfrom one place and putting it into a machine
for some processing, all different kinds ofthings. Polishing, sanding, deburring, dispensing
of glue, these kinds of things. You couldput a screwdriver on the end - for like electronics
assembly - so you're not getting any RSI,your job becomes a little bit less strenuous,
and you get to work with a cool robot as well.OF: OK. Well why don't we see how it moves.
(07:03):
OK, sure. So I'm going to just add a waypoint in here, click ‘set,’ and then that's
already where I want it to be. OK. And thenI'm going to add a couple more, and just teach
four different positions that I want it tocycle through. So number one is here. We’ll
make number two a little bit higher, likethis. And then number three can come over
(07:26):
towards you Oscar, but not too close…OF: Thank you.
And then number four, down. So we've kind of got a rectangular sort of shape. And we
can see on the screen here, that this is the…That's not quite a rectangle, but you can
see the shape, the path that the robot isgoing to follow between these points. So then
(07:50):
I just press ‘play’.OF: Oh there it goes.
Yep. So that's me moving into the first position. And then yeah, a very intuitive
interface. There's a ‘play’ and a ‘pause’button at the bottom. I actually got my two-year-old
daughter doing this a couple of weeks ago,and she… I didn't even tell her how to press
‘play’, I was like “Can you can youpress play?” And she found it, and knew
(08:11):
exactly what to do.OF: Oh right.
So it's very very intuitive. So there we go, point number one, point number two,
point number three, point number four. So…OF: And that was in real time, you programmed
it just as we were talking,AP: Yes.
OF (08:27):
Yeah. AP
you would probably need to have some otheractions at these points as well. So the simplest
kind of application is that we’d take oneof these grippers, and we'd pick something
up from one position, and we’d place itin another. So I would want to, say, go to
this position here and close the gripper,and then move over to this one, and then open
(08:47):
it. And then you can just build up your logicthat way. And, yeah, it's pretty simple.
Well, thank you so much. I think there have been some objects brought in for this
podcast that have been in some ways interactive,but I think might be the most. Why don't we
power it down, and then we can just talk withoutit. Well, thank you for that. And this is…
(09:11):
a what kind of robot, did you say?AP: This is a collaborative industrial robot.
So meaning, humans and robots collaboratingtogether to complete a task.
And so how would you distinguish that from what I might have in my head as this
traditional robot on a production line?AP: There are a few different aspects. One
of them is the safety aspect, so we have forcedlimitations on this type of robot. It's also
(09:33):
a lot more lightweight, so when it moves ithas less momentum, it can stop more easily.
And it's constantly checking that there areno obstructions to its path. And if something
does block it, then it will sense that, andit will stop with a small amount of force
applied.OF: Right, I see. Because the idea is that
it's the human and this robot working collaboratively,next to each other.
AP (09:53):
Yes. The best example I think, is if you consider it as like a smart power tool. So,
assembly tasks, where you maybe need to mountsome electronics inside a casing - you probably
need to put the casing in place, you needto put the circuit board in place, and then
screw in five screws into that - you can stillhave the person there, putting everything
(10:16):
into the jig, and then just push a button,and the robot can come in and drop those screws
in very very quickly. These screws need togo in with a certain amount of torque. You
could get RSI if you keep doing that for awhile, that's not…
OF (10:27):
Could you just explain ‘RSI’ for those that don't know.
AP (10:29):
Repetitive Strain Injury. It’s commonly in the wrists and hands, like if you're trying
to get a lid off a jar or something, and youdo that over and over again, it really starts
to take a toll on the muscles and the jointsin your hands. So stuff like that, it's quite
common that assembly tasks do require thatsort of movement. And that's really tough
on the human hand, we didn't evolve to dothat sort of thing. Back strain as well, from
(10:53):
heavy lifting, is another example of whata robot can take over as well. So it’s like
a stepping stone to more complex automationprojects.
OF (11:02):
Yes. And this is what makes it a little less intimidating, in terms of the fear that
robots are going to replace people. It's notabout replacing the human worker, it's about
collaborating with the human.AP: Yeah, ‘augmenting their work’ is how
we look at it. So from my experiences in Chinaand across Asia, the last few years visiting
(11:23):
so many of these factories, they're not placesthat you would ever really want to be spending
all of your time doing the same thing overand over again. And we can help chip away
at those worst worst jobs that people aredoing, as they're working like robots - picking
something up, sticking it inside somethingelse, and just doing that thousands of times
(11:44):
per day - stop people from having to do those.And then you can maintain or expand the same
workforce, but expand your output with thesame number of people. And maybe we can improve
people's quality of life with this type ofproduct. The data does show that is true,
people don't shrink the size of their workforce,they buy robots to increase their quality
(12:05):
and to increase their throughput.OF: There you go. Because it is a little bit
politically tricky, isn't it? If we're talkingabout automation, it can be sometimes seen
as at the expense of human labour, correct?AP: Yes. But generally, companies struggle
more if they don't automate than if they do.So, I mean, if the choice is getting some
(12:25):
robots in to work alongside the people thatyou already have, or potentially going completely
bust, or having to outsource to another partof the world, that's definitely a worse option.
So this also helps bring back production closerto the consumers of the products, which is
good from a sustainability perspective aswell. it means you don't have to burn all
those fuels to ship things around the world,you can run these processes ‘in the community,’
(12:49):
almost.OF: Yes. You're reminding me of the same kind
of arguments that were made with 3D printing,where it becomes more localised, closer to
the consumer. And you can fit a 3D printerin your house, and you can fit this into your
house.AP: Yep, exactly.
You wouldn't call that a robot though, right? Is that…? That is a robot?
AP (13:05):
You could potentially call a 3D printer a robot. If you wanted - at a stretch - you
could call your washing machine a robot. Somethingthat takes a task that was traditionally done
by humans, and automates it, and has somekind of mechanical interaction with its environment.
I would generally draw the line with the washingmachine and the 3D printer not being robots,
(13:28):
because they’re not really ‘repurpose-able.’‘Repurpose-able?’ Yeah, we're gonna say
‘repurpose-able.’OF: ‘Repurpose-ability’, baby.
Yes! OF
what a robot is? Or this is some kind of universallyaccepted term?
I don't think there is one absolutely fixed definition of a robot, they vary from
(13:50):
source to source. Broadly, people think aboutsomething that in some way resembles a human.
OF (13:56):
Right. AP
of it. But then if you're looking at stufflike autonomous cars, that doesn’t…
That’s a robot. AP
a horse than a human. It's a constant evolutionof work, of what people do in order to feed
(14:16):
themselves. It's changed constantly. Whensomeone invented the wheel, that took away
the job of the person who was maybe carryingsomeone previously, or the donkey that was
doing it. This is the way that things evolve,and we just need to ensure that it has good
outcomes.OF: Yeah. Very good. Well what is the competition
(14:37):
that you're facing here in China?AP: The innovation landscape here is unique
and interesting. The fact that everythingis made here, means that you can iterate on
designs extremely fast. So if the factorythat's making your prototypes is 10 minutes
down the road, you can send them somethingand they'll update it, and they will build
(14:59):
you a new one, and send it within a day ortwo.
Right. AP
very very quickly. And that's not just forrobotics, that's for all different sorts of
things. And the way people look at intellectualproperty here is kind of different as well.
It’s not as taboo to kind of copy somethingthat someone else has done, it is kind of
seen as sort of a mark of respect, almost.“This is a great thing, I want to make something
(15:22):
like this.” So that has resulted in lotsof products that are very similar to ours
coming out of the Chinese market.OF: I'm guessing specifically products like
yours. Because it would be a lot harder forthem to try and compete with the big robots
that we would see coming out of, let's say,Japan or Germany, right?
AP (15:40):
Yeah, there have been European and Japanese players that have been doing this for 30/40/50
years, and that technology is mature, I wouldsay. Whereas the whole sphere of collaborative
robots only started 15 years ago, pretty much.So the policymakers here see that sub-section
of industrial robots as one that China canstill potentially catch up and take the lead
(16:05):
on. And that's why there is a lot of investmentgoing into this area as well, in China.
OF (16:10):
Well that might make your life a little bit more full of headache than otherwise it
might have been.AP: I mean, we're all working towards the
same end goal. So ultimately it's good, it'sgoing to improve the lives of more people.
And all of the local competition, I wouldsay, is striving to have a product that is
50/60% as good as ours, and try to drive pricesdown. But for the most easy to programme,
(16:34):
the most feature laden, the most mature, themost stable platform, then customers are still
choosing ours. So if it's easy to buy, butnot easy to use, those people are never going
to come back.OF: Well let's talk about that, then. So the
‘ease of use’, what you mean about thatis, you need less than less input from the
human being, correct?AP: Yes.
(16:55):
And this is where it's not just about the mechanics of it, it's about converging
other technologies on to the mechanics ofit.
AP (17:02):
Yeah. OF
So as I've said, we've got an interface for controlling - for programming - this system
that is a big step in the right directiontowards ‘ease of use’, compared to what
robot systems looked like previously. Butyou are telling the robot exactly what to
do in every scenario, that's essentially whatthe logic of the programme that you're writing
(17:25):
is. “If you find this situation, you needto do this.” If something isn't exactly
how it expected it to be, you're probablyjust going to have the robot stop and say
“I need help.” There's no way to dealwith variation in the environment. But there
are things going on that look like they'regoing to make a difference in that way. When
we come to have more AI and vision processinginvolved in robot applications, instead of
(17:50):
you specifically having to say what to doin every scenario, if it can see something
is not quite right - because it's lookingall the time - and it can compare that to
previous scenarios that its seen before, thenit becomes easier, and you'll have to spend
less time telling it exactly what to do.OF: Yes, these small robots - this convenience
- and then you converge that with the vision: it can see what's going on around it, then (18:09):
undefined
react to what it can see, and learn how todo it differently. That's the future, right?
AP (18:20):
Yeah. And there's maybe even more of a need for that with collaborative scenarios,
because people are inherently unpredictable.They don't do things exactly the same every
time. So you need a system that can deal withthose variances, and continue working.
OF (18:35):
Uh-huh. Yeah, which then makes it more productive. But then this is where it also
gets into scary territory, right? Becauseit's scary enough when it's just the robotics,
we're talking about literally just takingover jobs of human beings. But then when we
go into AI… And you're looking at me witha very neutral expression, like “Oh, what's
he going to say?” Come on, you must haveheard this. The whole scariness about robots
(18:58):
taking over the world. I mean, even thoughyou're working on this very specific thing,
what part do you play in this?AP: I think these sort of AI tasks that we're
talking about here, are in a very narrow space.It's about making it slightly more capable
to deal with variation in one scenario. Thiskind of broad AI - where it knows how to handle
(19:18):
all different kind of scenarios, and makedecisions - like, that it's a very long way
away from what we're talking about in thiskind of narrow space here. I don't think we're
that close to it yet, I'm not exactly in thatfield. But from what I see from the sorts
of AI tasks that we're looking at integratinghere, it's not that.
But you're close to having AI in these small robots, so that it can start to learn.
(19:40):
That's coming up in the next iteration ortwo of these robots?
AP (19:43):
Yeah, there are third party systems that can augment our products with that sort of
functionality.OF: Ah.
As soon as the robustness, the reliability of those systems, and the price comes down,
then yeah.OF: You're talking about the robustness. But
then, the driverless vehicles, for example.I mean, some experts say it's a matter of
years, and some experts say it'll never happen.Where are you on that spectrum?
(20:07):
I think we're quite close. Tesla has rolled out their autopilot software, which - to cover
themselves - you still have to be in the driver'sseat, with your eyes open, and your hands
on the wheel in order for it to function.But it can essentially do it. I've not tried
it myself, I've tried an older version whereit would just stay in lane, but not the full
autopilot kind of thing. Yeah, it seems tobe there. I mean, you still need the legislation
(20:29):
side of things.OF: Yes.
So there is a hell of a lot of regulation that needs to go around this. And that's probably
what's going to slow things down, is thatwe've got to be really certain that this is
all right, and safe, and everyone signs offon it.
OF (20:43):
Yeah. AP
potentially.OF: Except for, if there is some country in
the world that fast-tracks it, because theywant to have the first mover advantage. Can
you imagine that it might be a kind of regulatoryrace to the bottom, to try and be at the head
of the competition?AP: I can't imagine anyone being reckless
with this.OF: Yeah.
AP (21:04):
Because the consequences are quite severe. OF
in your story, because it's not everyone youmeet on the streets who comes from the world
of robotics. It's one of the reasons why,when I first met you, I was very excited to
understand what you do. How did you get intothis field?
So, from the robotics degree in England, I had a Chinese professor, and I wanted to
(21:27):
travel when I finished my undergraduate degree,and he helped me get a job in his previous
university where he did his PhD in 西安[Xī’ān].
OF (21:35):
Ah, 西安 [Xī’ān]. That was your first place in China.
AP (21:38):
It was, that is my 老家 [lǎojiā] in China, yeah.
OF (21:40):
Yeah, I've only been as the tourist, what's it like to live in 西安 [Xī’ān]?
AP (21:45):
Phenomenal. So I went from the north of England to that ancient capital of 13 dynasties
in the middle of China. And these beautifulcity walls, and then you've got the Bell Tower
and the Drum Tower. And then you add to thatsome fantastic noodles, which also made me
enjoy it even more. The 西安 [Xī’ān]-esecuisine is still my favourite type of Chinese
(22:06):
food.OF: How do you define 西安 [Xī’ān]-ese
cuisine?AP: Wide wide noodles, with a healthy dose
of chilli and garlic and oil. Intense flavours,I think. But yeah, very good.
OF (22:18):
And these are handmade noodles. AP
Would they be as delicious if a robot had made them?
AP (22:24):
I think so. A well-programmed robot, yes. OF
working?AP: Yes, so 50% of the time working in the
university. So there are a number of studentrobotics competitions in China and around
the world, and I was helping to prepare someof the student teams for those competitions,
(22:47):
football competition. So using either robotswith wheels, or little humanoid legged robots,
to try to win a football competition. Andyou basically just set them down, and then
your programme has to make all of decisionsfor the whole game. So you can't make any
adjustments, you’ve just got to kind of…OF: Watch it go.
…Hope that you’ve programmed it well enough that you can deal with these different
scenarios.OF: OK.
(23:08):
That was interesting, I'd never been involved in those sorts of competitions before. But
because I had a kind of different way of approachingchallenges, maybe I could help them look at
things from a different perspective. And thenI spent the rest of my time in Chinese classes
in the university as well. So that's kindof what got me hooked, and why I'm still here
15 years later.OF: Oh wow, right. What is the future for
(23:30):
you then? So do you see yourself staying inthis field? Do you see yourself staying in
China?AP: Well, I think for the rest of my life
I'm definitely going to be in and out of China.This is my third stint here now, I have gone
and done other things and come back again.I think that's going to continue. I really
enjoy the challenges of living here and thefulfilment that I get from speaking Mandarin
(23:54):
and just interacting with people here. Somaybe we'll be away for a little while again,
and then come back again. But I think, yeah,this is a lifelong, career-long thing, my
interaction with China.OF: Well thank you Andrew.
Thank you very much. OF
OK.
[Part 2]OF: So here are the 10 questions, I ask everyone
(24:17):
who is sitting on that chair these same 10questions. I'm not entirely sure what to expect
from the likes of you, Andrew. Are you goingto be robotic about these answers?
We’ll see, won’t we. OF
from Shanghai Daily (24:32):
What is your favourite China-related fact?
AP (24:36):
I’m gonna stay robotic on this one, in that there are now over a million industrial
robots deployed in China. That’s almostthree times as much as the next largest deployment
base, which is Japan.OF: Wow.
So it's the centre of the robotic manufacturing world now. Japan, Korea, the U.S. and Germany
(24:57):
are the next four, and I think it's - don’thold me to it, but - somewhere in the realm
of all those four put together are equal towhat we've got set up in China.
OF (25:05):
And is that just a function of there being that much more manufacturing in China?
AP (25:10):
Yeah. OF
Rosetta Stone (25:14):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
AP (25:18):
入乡随俗 [Rùxiāng Suísú]
OF (25:22):
Ah. AP
the people do’, which I think has done mefairly well here in my years in China…
Yes. AP
pretty much. And very happy to go into littleplaces, and be able to chat with people, and
just experience a little bit of what whattheir lives are like here. I really enjoy
(25:44):
that. And I use it to justify maybe skippingin line in a train station or something…
Oh no. AP
“Well that's just what you do here, isn’tit?”
Yes. Oh dear me, yes. AP
Yeah, I like it. Next question, which comes from naked Retreats
destination within China?AP: Can you guess, based on the conversation
(26:05):
that we've just had?OF: I would it’s 西安 [Xī’ān].
AP (26:07):
It is 西安 [Xī’ān], yeah. I love going back there.
OF (26:10):
How often do you go back? AP
year. It's not been so much recently, maybetwice in the last three years, three times
the last three years, something like that.OF: Yeah. Which just goes to show how tricky
it is to travel in these times, right?AP: Yeah.
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
AP (26:27):
The most, it’s going to have to be Taobao, I think.
OF (26:33):
This is so funny, because I wouldn't put you as a Taobao kind of guy. Because normally
it’s, like, fashionistas who are buyingdresses, and who are buying all kinds of cute
things. But no, even the robot guy is addictedto Taobao.
AP (26:46):
Yeah, every electronics product, every electronics component, has an outlet from
the factory straight on to Taobao that canbe at your door within a couple of days.
OF (26:56):
Oh wow. AP
on Taobao, and then going to Singapore andseeing what the mark-up is, it's incredible.
Yes. AP
is so rapid here as well.OF: Yes.
AP (27:08):
Because you can buy all this stuff and… OF
Prototype, yeah. OF
it elsewhere.AP: Yeah.
OF (27:15):
And then what about the thing you'd missed the least?
AP (27:17):
Potentially, having to check the air quality in the mornings. That's a bit of a drag, and
especially with little lungs to worry about.OF: You mean your children?
Yes. I think I have normal-sized lungs, but they have little lungs.
OF (27:30):
You've got how many kids? AP
What age? AP
Yes, this is it. Like, now I've stopped paying attention to it - and I have the feeling
it's getting better, and so I kind of justlive my life - but I guess when you have little
kids, you start to get more “What is theindex today,” right?
AP (27:48):
Yeah. And it's improved so much since the early days. And the worst polluted days
now are roughly on par with the least polluteddays then.
OF (27:58):
Yes. Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
AP (28:04):
Yes, I think that's why I'm still here. Just, things on the street. Even in Shanghai,
which is a top level city, you still can walkaround the corner and see things that you
just don't understand why they're happening.But you love that they're happening. My wife
told me - coming to meet me on Sunday - thatshe saw an old lady cuddling a duck on the
(28:26):
street, on the way there. And it’s like"I don't know why… Why is that happening?”
But I'm very happy that it is.OF: Listen, the world needs much more duck
cuddling than it has right now. I'm all forit. I'm trying to think if I've seen a duck
being cuddled on the street. I think I'veseen a monkey, I've seen a turtle… Of course
dogs dressed in all kinds of clothing, butthat I think is a global trend now, that’s
(28:49):
not just Shanghai, right?AP: Turtles on a stick.
OF (28:51):
Yeah. AP
Yeah, yeah. But that's so common, right? I think I see them once a week.
AP (28:56):
Yeah. OF
Where is your favourite place to go, to eat,drink, or hang out?
We're living in 静安 [Jìng’ān], and there's a new development opened up quite
close called 陕康里 [Shǎnkānglǐ].OF: Oh yes.
It has a number of bars and restaurants - it has a tap house with some decent beer
and a courtyard that's away from the road- so you can drink beer and let the kids run
(29:19):
around. It’s a nice combination.OF: There you go.
Not particularly cultural, but it’s easy.
OF (29:25):
Yeah, you've got that combination of having a beer, but then also being a pseudo-responsible
parent.AP: Mmm. ‘Pseudo.’
Next question, what is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
AP (29:40):
This is very hard, because the Taobao history goes back a long long way. The best
one in recent memory is… When we returnedto China in March 2020 - just before the borders
closed - we had to do 14 days of home quarantine.OF: Oh yeah.
So there were a number of purchases to set up an adventure playground in our living
(30:00):
room, with ball pits, and tunnels, and differentclimbing frames and stuff. I think I did a
pretty good job with that one.OF: I've got a feeling that you had more fun
putting it up than your kid had playing withit.
That's entirely possible. OF
kids. When you have kids, you can sort ofstart to re-live your childhood, and become
(30:22):
a kid yourself.AP: Yeah, I now have an excuse to be as childish
as I was in the interim between being a childmyself and having children. But now I don't
have to hide it so much.OF: Because I don't have kids - and I'm now
in my mid forties - and sometimes I wonderif I'm very childish because I don't have
a kid. But maybe… men are just childish.That's the conclusion.
(30:43):
Yeah. OF
阿姨 [Āyí] fight club. OF
you mean. Can you explain what this is?AP: This is a disagreement between two 阿姨
[āyí]s who decided to resolve it by kickingeach other. And I'm not sure if I've actually
(31:04):
seen this exact thing on the street. But itseems like a nice example of also something
that still… maybe doesn't surprise me, butI just love seeing silly things happening
on the street.OF: Yes.
And they happen quite a lot around here. OF
The first thing is that this has been chosenbefore. In Season 02 there was a Belgian/English
(31:24):
architect called Wendy Saunders, and she chosethis exact favourite stick for the exact same
reason. And it also reminds me of actuallyEpisode 01 of Season 01, which was Philippe
Gas, the CEO of Disneyland Shanghai, and hewas saying how you see people shouting at
each other on the streets, and - even to theextent that they might be violent, like this
(31:45):
sticker - it is part of the way people communicate.It's the kind of energy that I enjoy being
around, even though it can sometimes spillover into things like this sticker.
Yeah, if you've never experienced it before, it seems like people are very angry. But that's
not necessarily always the case, is it?OF: Yes.
It’s a different sort of etiquette. OF
(32:08):
to sing at KTV?AP: It's been a while since I've sung it.
But ‘Dreadlock Holiday’ by 10cc.OF: What the hell is that?
It's kind of ska/reggae-ish. OF
Yeah. But you can find it on the KTV systems, if you look hard enough.
OF (32:25):
Oh, really? AP
I'm not sure I know it. Like, what is this song?
AP (32:28):
I’m not gonna sing it, I'll recite the words to you if you want.
OF (32:32):
Which one is it? AP
Oh! AP
OK, I know this one. This is such a deep cut in terms of British culture. I'm sure
no-one else knows this song, apart from Brits,AP: Er yeah, I think that's probably right,
yeah.OF: In case anyone doesn't know, it goes:
“I don't like cricket. Oh no.”AP: “I love it.”
(32:55):
I can't stand cricket. Are you a cricket fan?
AP (33:00):
No, not at all. OF
KTV, it would be the opposite of cross-culturalcommunication. It wouldn't bring people to
you, it would completely repel people.AP: I'm mainly in KTV for my own enjoyment,
so that doesn’t really bother me. I knownobody else enjoys it when I sing, but I do
(33:21):
sometimes.OF: Very good. I would never have guessed
that that was available at KTV in China. Evennow, right, you find it?
Yep. OF
comes to us from from JustPod, which is thestudio we are recording this in today: What
or who is your biggest source of inspirationin China?
So I think ‘what’
(33:45):
inspires me to keep learning, and to keeplearning more about the country. And just,
I see characters that I don't know on thestreet every day, and I just still want to
keep understanding what they mean, how yousay them, where they come from. I guess that
plugs into the engineering sort of attention-to-detailthing as well, that if I see something I don't
know, I always want to pull out my phone andlook it up. Which is considered as mildly
(34:09):
antisocial by some, but I still do it. I'llnever get to the end of the dictionary on
that one.OF: Yeah.
There’s still always so much more to learn. And it fascinates me.
OF (34:18):
Well said. Thank you so much, Andrew. I appreciate that you were able to talk about
something which is very complicated, in away which is quite accessible. I'm sure you
dumbed it down, I don't know how many degrees.But I found it fascinating. I definitely look
forward to seeing how this progresses. Someof me thinks it's for the better, and the
(34:38):
other half is still a little bit scared. Butthank you for at least taking the edge off
the most scary parts.AP: You're very welcome. Let's revisit it
in 20 years and see where we’re at.OF: That is, again, wishful thinking. Before
I let you leave, tell me out of everyone youknow in China, who would you recommend that
I interview for the next season of Mosaicof China?
AP (34:59):
So, Alex Mok. She is a Swedish architect, and I think she would be a great person for
you to talk to.OF: OK. Thank you. Short. Concise. Thanks
again for your time today, Andrew.AP: Thank you very much.
[Outro]OF: So the biggest update since the time Andrew
and I did this recording is that he and hisfamily have moved to the U.S. He’s still
(35:23):
with Universal Robots, and his new role isin global product innovation. And as Andrew
mentioned, his career has always been in andout of China, so let’s see how long it takes
before he’s back in this part of the world.
Please head to the Mosaic of China websiteor social media to see all the extra photos
and graphics from today’s show, just doa search for mosaicofchina on Facebook or
(35:47):
LinkedIn, or oscology on Instagram and WeChat.The most hilarious of all the photos Andrew
shared was the one in which illustrates hisinterpretation of his favourite phrase in
Chinese, which was 入乡随俗 [rùxiāngsuísú]. I mention this in particular because
the English equivalent phrase of ‘When inRome’ goes some way to explain how these
(36:09):
Chinese 成语 [chéngyǔ] idioms work. InEnglish, you can just say “When in Rome,”
you don’t need to say the whole phrase whichexplains that it’s about ‘doing as the
Romans do.’ Neither do you need to knowthat the phrase originates from the letters
of Pope Clement XIV in 1777. But you willcertainly know how confusing it would be to
(36:30):
say it to someone who is a beginner in English.So that will give you a sense of how confounding
it is to try and cope with the hundreds of成语 [chéngyǔ] that crop up in Chinese.
Today’s PREMIUM version of the show is anotherbumper edition, there’s an extra 20 minutes
of content this week. As always, you’llfind all the information on how to subscribe
(36:52):
at mosaicofchina.com, but in the meantimehere are a few clips:
[Clip 1]OF: When you're looking at Taobao in the future,
you'll start to see some Chinese competitorsalready put things up there.
Yeah. I've found them on Taobao before. [Clip 2]
The shoulder joint on the human arm is crazy complicated, so we've kind of separated
those out and just put them next to each other.[Clip 3]
I rock up with my suitcase and just drop it in between two people on the production
(37:15):
line, it’s really not very disruptive.[Clip 4]
Elderly care for China, there aren't going to be as many younger family members to look
after the older people.[Clip 5]
OF (37:24):
They have the bed which shoots Wallace down into his pants.
AP (37:27):
I haven't quite managed to build that one yet.
[Clip 6]AP: Robots jumping over crates and doing backflips:
I do wonder when I see those videos, how heavilychoreographed they are.
[Clip 7]OF: I'm not gonna question it too much. I'm
gonna just try and relax about this wholething.
[Clip 8]AP: 机器人 [Jīqìrén].
OF (37:44):
机器人 [Jīqìrén]. AP
Seriously? AP
[End of Audio Clips]
Andrew mentioned the innovation landscapein China, particularly among Chinese competitors.
So a fascinating accompaniment to this episodeis my chat with Gina Li from Season 01 Episode
06, who tells the exact flip-side to Andrew’sstory. Of course another overlap is with the
(38:08):
recent episode with the CTO Eric Liu in Episode01 of this Season, whose work on the Metaverse
in China is also converging with ArtificialIntelligence. And finally, Andrew also mentioned
the way people look at intellectual propertyhere in China. So for an in-depth look into
that world, you definitely need to listento the episode with the lawyer Vittorio Franzese
(38:30):
from Season 02 Episode 27.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. If you enjoy fairly technical
conversations like today’s episode, thenyou’re also going to like the following
catch-ups, firstly with the fire engineerMichael Kinsey from Season 02 Episode 25 and
(38:50):
then with ‘the FinTech Philosopher’ himself,Srinivas Yanamandra. And we’ll be back with
another full episode next week.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Hello Michael.
MK (39:06):
Hello. OF
you so much since we did our recording, butwe have been in touch electronically all the
time.MK: Yeah, absolutely.
OF (39:18):
Well for anyone who didn't hear your original episode, I should explain that you are a fire
engineer. How would you explain it?MK: We work with other engineers and architects,
helping make sure their part of the designis safe for people during fires, or hopefully
prevents the fires happening in the firstplace.
Yeah. MK
(39:40):
multi-level high-speed train.OF: Oh.
MK (39:42):
And this was a prototype train, so it's super interesting. Previously, we'd done evacuation
trials of a high-speed train. But now we'redoing a multi-level train.
OF (39:51):
How interesting. I've seen those in Germany. I don't think I've seen them anywhere else
in the world, actually. Have they startedrunning in China yet?
MK (39:59):
There are some. They're typically a bit taller than normal high-speed trains.
OF (40:03):
Right. MK
can run them on. We were looking at humanbehaviour; looking at how we could get people
off in efficient ways; some of the problemspeople might have; recording performance of
how long it takes people to do things. Thathas been absolutely fascinating.
Interesting. What about the next thing then, Michael. So what is next for you?
MK (40:22):
So, I'm actually planning on leaving Shanghai. I'm going to be staying with my current company
Arup, and I'm transferring to their Birminghamoffice in the UK.
OF (40:32):
Right. MK
mum in Shanghai, we're divorced. With me leaving,the kids are going to stay here for now. Yeah,
it's been an interesting ride, my daughteris coming up to eleven, my son is coming up
to nine. My daughter is fine speaking English,but my son doesn't like it. So I have to try
(40:53):
and balance the two. Sometimes even get mydaughter to translate, if I can't quite communicate
what I want to say.OF: Wow.
MK (40:59):
So the plan in terms of the kids are, we're hopeful that they can come to the UK
for high school.OF: Oh right.
So the idea is that they've had an education where they can learn, read and write Chinese;
probably had a slightly higher amount of disciplineinstilled; and then when they come to the
UK, hopefully they can have the best of bothworlds. In terms of me missing them, the idea
is we're going to have regular video chats.Of course, it's not going to be the same.
(41:22):
YeahOF: It's lucky that they're at the age where
they can at least understand what's goingon. You know, it's not like they are toddlers,
and suddenly you're gone, and you're onlyon a computer screen. They get it.
Absolutely. I mean, when we first came here - this was like six and a half years
ago - they were totally different. Now they'reolder, I feel a bit more comfortable that
they have a slightly more settled life. Theygo to school here, they can understand when
(41:44):
I tell them “You know, Daddy's going tobe going to another country, but will still
love you very much."OF: Yeah. MK: “I'm here for you. If you ever need
me, you just call me, I'll come.” That kindof stuff. It's hard conversations. Coming
here was a hard decision in many ways. Goingthrough a divorce in a foreign country was
also a challenge.OF: Yeah.
I had to fly to 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] to get the divorce done, on my own. No translator
(42:06):
or anything. And they were like “What areyou doing here?" And I said “Well, I'm here
to get a divorce.” And they were like “What?”OF: Wow.
So the time in China is littered with those sort of stories. When you look back,
you think “Wow, how did that happen?”And, yeah, it gives you confidence in what
you're doing, I guess in some ways.OF: Oh, Birmingham will be a breeze after
this. No, I appreciate that Michael, becauseI got to know you in terms of what you do.
(42:30):
But I think it's nice to cover this part ofyour life, just briefly in this chat as well.
Yeah. OF
the next season sadly also left Shanghai.It's a shame, but at the at the same time
I'm very glad that you are part of this project.It gives me an excuse now to keep in touch
with you, as you move on with your careeraround the world. So good luck with the future.
(42:53):
Thanks a lot.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Hey Srini, nice to see you.
SY (42:58):
Good to see you again, thank you. OF
Yes. I moved to Hyderabad. So for the last three months, I'm continuing my new role
here in this place.OF: Are you still working in the field of
compliance?SY: In fact I think you pushed me to my new
role. That's what I should say. I still amin the compliance profession, but I have moved
(43:23):
more to the FinTech side - the largest FinTechcompany in India, Paytm - truly as a ‘FinTech
Philosopher.’OF: Ah, that's so funny. I thought of your
compliance role going into the realm of technology.I think that was where I came up with the
title ‘Fintech'. But you're right, it wasn'tvery accurate. But now you've made it accurate.
(43:44):
Indeed, because I work for the largest FinTech payment company. And we have got the
same kind of a cookbook from what we haveseen in China. The same thing is happening
in India, but at a much faster pace. The FinTechpayments need some amount of ecosystem, governance
and compliance. So that is one part of therole. And personally - as you know me - I
(44:05):
keep thinking about these things in a littlemore of a contemporary context. So I started
doing my doctoral thesis - my second doctoralresearch - that I’ve started to pursue.
Which is about the metaverse actually, andthe kind of reality that the metaverse is
going to bring.OF: In our last catch-up - which was now 18
months ago - I think you mentioned that youhad just started some research in bioethics
(44:30):
at that point, correct?SY: So that was a global masters in bioethics
from Anáhuac University in Mexico. So thatis already in progress actually. But because
of this relocation - because of the time thatit takes to spend on weekends - I was a bit
delayed. So that is getting completed in aboutsix months time.
OF (44:49):
You already are a doctor. So you already have one PhD, how many masters and PhDs do
you actually have at this point?SY: I have one, but I have a fascination to
have three. So this will be my second one.OF: Oh my god.
SY (45:04):
But I'm expecting - at least by the end of my life - I should have three PhDs.
OF (45:08):
You know, when I talk to people doing their PhDs, they say what a nightmare it is,
and how they only just survived with theirfaculties intact. And you want to have three?
Oh my word.SY: It's like, how do you create an album
for your life? When you work professionally,you will get a lot of these ‘reflections
of the world’. And if you can codify thesereflections into some form of academic writing,
(45:28):
it solidifies what you have done professionally.OF: Yeah.
SY (45:31):
So each of your PhDs is your like an album that you are creating, for the five or six
years of the professional journey that youhave done.
OF (45:37):
I totally understand that. Well let's talk about your leaving China, because when
somebody who was on the Mosaic does leave,the first thing I do is to remind you what
you said that you would miss the most - andmiss the least - when you left China. So now
I can test if it's true or not. So you saidthat you would miss walking to work - which
(46:00):
actually was quite a luxury for anyone inShanghai too - and you said that you wouldn't
miss having no access to your Telugu movies.Is that what you miss the most and miss the
least? Or what is the reality?SY: The reality is that I could regain both
those things now. So even the walking is likefive minutes away, because I'm mostly operating
(46:20):
in a tech company. And they have given mea work from home option. So I think that has
come back. And then with the added alternativeof watching Telugu movies, at least every
week, we wind up in getting into one or anothermovie. Please watch the South Indian movie
called ‘RRR’ (46:39):
the best movie which you can watch. International standard. It is awesome.
You should watch that movie.OF: Well there you go. I always knew you were
a superfan, but now you are becoming an ambassadorfor Bollywood as well. Well Srini, I want
(46:59):
to thank you as usual for being part of thisproject. It's now been two updates following
our original episode, and I hope that we havethis excuse to keep in touch every year at
least.SY: Definitely, Oscar. And I should thank
you personally, and to all the viewers. Becauseevery time you do this kind of podcast, I
always have a surge in my connections list- on LinkedIn WeChat and Facebook, some way
(47:22):
or another they come in - and thanks to you,it is actually keeping me lively and engaged.
And I look forward to staying in touch, thankyou.
[Trailer]OF: ‘Repurpose-ability,’ baby.
AP (00:05):
Yes!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We’ve got a great episode today, as wellas two catch-up chats with previous guests
at the end, so I will keep today’s introshort. Just a quick heads-up to non-native
(00:28):
English speakers today that there will bea few - but only a few - technical expressions
in today’s show, so head to the Mosaic ofChina website to follow the transcript, or
watch the YouTube version which has captionsrunning alongside the audio and graphics.
So if you hear us use the word ‘torque’it’s not T-A-L-K, it’s T-O-R-Q-U-E. Similarly,
(00:51):
‘brake’ is not B-R-E-A-K, it’s B-R-A-K-E.And we mention AI, which of course stands
for Artificial Intelligence.
Speaking of the YouTube version of the show,when today’s guest introduces his object,
you’ll hear in the audio version that thereare some long pauses. This is not only because
(01:14):
I wanted you to have a sense of what was happeningin real time, but also because it corresponds
with a video that I took with my phone. Soit’s worth dipping into the YouTube version
if you want to see what’s happening at thatpoint of the recording.
Alright, power up! Let’s start the show.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Andrew.
(01:36):
Thank you for having me. OF
That is correct. It’s… ‘Son of Peter’ is the original derivation.
OF (01:42):
Is that right? AP
Well we've got a lot in common, because my father is called Peter. So if you're ‘Pether’,
then maybe so am I. Whenever I have a Britsitting opposite me, I'm always more conscious
of my British accent. How British do you thinkyou are, are you like many many many generations
British?AP: Yes, quite a long way back, there’s
nothing interesting. The 23andMe came back…OF: Oh right.
AP (02:06):
Like, British, Scandinavian, all kind of the same sort of thing that's been washing
around in Britain for a millennium.OF: Yes. And the person who we know each other
through is our mutual friend Nick Sherwood,another Brit with an equally British name.
Shout out to Nick. Well, the first questionI ask everyone sitting in that chair is, what
(02:29):
object did you bring that in some way typifiesyour life here in China?
I brought a robot with me. OF
you've dragged in was. So why don't you openit, and let's have a look.
Sure. OF
object anyone has brought.AP: OK yeah it’s 33 kilogrammes.
OF (02:52):
I could actually give you a hand here, but I'm just sitting here watching you do
it.AP: No, no, don’t worry.
This is great audio. AP
Oooh. AP
Right. Well this is quite elaborate. So why don't you first of all explain the different
components that we're looking at right now?AP: Sure. So probably the easiest-to-identify
(03:15):
part is the the arm here. So this is a collaborativeindustrial robot arm. This is the smallest
one that we make, the larger ones, definitely…this would not be feasible. But this one,
it’s just about manageable to take it around.So we use this setup for customer demos. With
this kind of lightweight of a product, itrevolutionises the way you can do those sorts
of demos and interactions with new customers.Because if you've got something that's absolutely
(03:40):
enormous, there's no way you can take it intosomeone's office meeting room, just plonk
it down, and show him how it works. So it'squite an advantage.
Absolutely. And then connected to that is..?
AP (03:50):
So this silver box here is the controller. Everywhere you see one of these blue plastic
caps, there is a motor, gearbox, brake, allother stuff inside there. And then they connect
with one cable back through to this controller.OF: OK, then there's a cable connected to..?
This is the ‘teach pendant’. OF
I don't know why it's called a pendant, it's not like you would ever… Actually no,
(04:15):
some of them which only have buttons on them,maybe you would wear them around your neck,
and that's why they called it a pendant. Butthis is essentially an iPad with an emergency
stop button on it. So it's got a nice graphicalprogramming interface. If you intuitively
know how to use a touchscreen - from yoursmartphone or from your iPad - then you should
be pretty good to do with this thing as well.OF: Which means, are you going to do a practical
(04:36):
demonstration right now?AP: I think I should.
OF (04:38):
I’m so excited. Even though I knew you were in robots, I didn't think you would bring
a robot. So let's see how it goes.AP: OK.
Maybe while we're waiting for it to boot up, I can see the logo - I can see the name
of the company - so maybe you can introducethe company that you work for right now.
AP (04:53):
Sure, yes. So the company is called Universal Robots. We're kind of the original creators
of this sub-genre of industrial robotics: collaborative robots. It was started by a (04:59):
undefined
few guys out of university in Denmark, theystarted the project in 2005, released the
first robot in 2008, and we've been iteratingon those designs ever since. We're now part
of the Teradyne group, which is a Boston company.But yeah, as I said, we were the first ones
(05:22):
to make this type of robot commercially successful,and there must be 2-3-400 companies making
very similar products now. So it's a formof flattery, right?
OF (05:33):
Yes. AP
things that resemble our products, on theoutside at least. But the inner workings,
I think we still have a fairly superior offeringin that way.
And what is your role at Universal Robots? AP
Applications team in Asia. So I've been withthis company for eight years now, and I've
(05:54):
done a number of different roles. And it'sall been focused around how our product works,
and how it can be deployed into differentscenarios and manufacturing facilities.
Well it's your job to explain and demonstrate these robots, so I'm going to put you to the
test now. So is it ready, has it been firedup?
AP (06:13):
It has, yes. Let me just… OF
OK. So if you look at this, you'll notice it looks a bit like an arm. So it needs to
be integrated with its surroundings, it needsto have something put on the end of the robot
arm here as well.OF: I see. So this is just the base setup,
and then you can put other things on top ofit later on.
Yes. OF
And that makes it incredibly flexible. So this could be used for assembling something,
(06:38):
packaging something, picking something upfrom one place and putting it into a machine
for some processing, all different kinds ofthings. Polishing, sanding, deburring, dispensing
of glue, these kinds of things. You couldput a screwdriver on the end - for like electronics
assembly - so you're not getting any RSI,your job becomes a little bit less strenuous,
and you get to work with a cool robot as well.OF: OK. Well why don't we see how it moves.
(07:03):
OK, sure. So I'm going to just add a waypoint in here, click ‘set,’ and then that's
already where I want it to be. OK. And thenI'm going to add a couple more, and just teach
four different positions that I want it tocycle through. So number one is here. We’ll
make number two a little bit higher, likethis. And then number three can come over
(07:26):
towards you Oscar, but not too close…OF: Thank you.
And then number four, down. So we've kind of got a rectangular sort of shape. And we
can see on the screen here, that this is the…That's not quite a rectangle, but you can
see the shape, the path that the robot isgoing to follow between these points. So then
(07:50):
I just press ‘play’.OF: Oh there it goes.
Yep. So that's me moving into the first position. And then yeah, a very intuitive
interface. There's a ‘play’ and a ‘pause’button at the bottom. I actually got my two-year-old
daughter doing this a couple of weeks ago,and she… I didn't even tell her how to press
‘play’, I was like “Can you can youpress play?” And she found it, and knew
(08:11):
exactly what to do.OF: Oh right.
So it's very very intuitive. So there we go, point number one, point number two,
point number three, point number four. So…OF: And that was in real time, you programmed
it just as we were talking,AP: Yes.
OF (08:27):
Yeah. AP
you would probably need to have some otheractions at these points as well. So the simplest
kind of application is that we’d take oneof these grippers, and we'd pick something
up from one position, and we’d place itin another. So I would want to, say, go to
this position here and close the gripper,and then move over to this one, and then open
(08:47):
it. And then you can just build up your logicthat way. And, yeah, it's pretty simple.
Well, thank you so much. I think there have been some objects brought in for this
podcast that have been in some ways interactive,but I think might be the most. Why don't we
power it down, and then we can just talk withoutit. Well, thank you for that. And this is…
(09:11):
a what kind of robot, did you say?AP: This is a collaborative industrial robot.
So meaning, humans and robots collaboratingtogether to complete a task.
And so how would you distinguish that from what I might have in my head as this
traditional robot on a production line?AP: There are a few different aspects. One
of them is the safety aspect, so we have forcedlimitations on this type of robot. It's also
(09:33):
a lot more lightweight, so when it moves ithas less momentum, it can stop more easily.
And it's constantly checking that there areno obstructions to its path. And if something
does block it, then it will sense that, andit will stop with a small amount of force
applied.OF: Right, I see. Because the idea is that
it's the human and this robot working collaboratively,next to each other.
AP (09:53):
Yes. The best example I think, is if you consider it as like a smart power tool. So,
assembly tasks, where you maybe need to mountsome electronics inside a casing - you probably
need to put the casing in place, you needto put the circuit board in place, and then
screw in five screws into that - you can stillhave the person there, putting everything
(10:16):
into the jig, and then just push a button,and the robot can come in and drop those screws
in very very quickly. These screws need togo in with a certain amount of torque. You
could get RSI if you keep doing that for awhile, that's not…
OF (10:27):
Could you just explain ‘RSI’ for those that don't know.
AP (10:29):
Repetitive Strain Injury. It’s commonly in the wrists and hands, like if you're trying
to get a lid off a jar or something, and youdo that over and over again, it really starts
to take a toll on the muscles and the jointsin your hands. So stuff like that, it's quite
common that assembly tasks do require thatsort of movement. And that's really tough
on the human hand, we didn't evolve to dothat sort of thing. Back strain as well, from
(10:53):
heavy lifting, is another example of whata robot can take over as well. So it’s like
a stepping stone to more complex automationprojects.
OF (11:02):
Yes. And this is what makes it a little less intimidating, in terms of the fear that
robots are going to replace people. It's notabout replacing the human worker, it's about
collaborating with the human.AP: Yeah, ‘augmenting their work’ is how
we look at it. So from my experiences in Chinaand across Asia, the last few years visiting
(11:23):
so many of these factories, they're not placesthat you would ever really want to be spending
all of your time doing the same thing overand over again. And we can help chip away
at those worst worst jobs that people aredoing, as they're working like robots - picking
something up, sticking it inside somethingelse, and just doing that thousands of times
(11:44):
per day - stop people from having to do those.And then you can maintain or expand the same
workforce, but expand your output with thesame number of people. And maybe we can improve
people's quality of life with this type ofproduct. The data does show that is true,
people don't shrink the size of their workforce,they buy robots to increase their quality
(12:05):
and to increase their throughput.OF: There you go. Because it is a little bit
politically tricky, isn't it? If we're talkingabout automation, it can be sometimes seen
as at the expense of human labour, correct?AP: Yes. But generally, companies struggle
more if they don't automate than if they do.So, I mean, if the choice is getting some
(12:25):
robots in to work alongside the people thatyou already have, or potentially going completely
bust, or having to outsource to another partof the world, that's definitely a worse option.
So this also helps bring back production closerto the consumers of the products, which is
good from a sustainability perspective aswell. it means you don't have to burn all
those fuels to ship things around the world,you can run these processes ‘in the community,’
(12:49):
almost.OF: Yes. You're reminding me of the same kind
of arguments that were made with 3D printing,where it becomes more localised, closer to
the consumer. And you can fit a 3D printerin your house, and you can fit this into your
house.AP: Yep, exactly.
You wouldn't call that a robot though, right? Is that…? That is a robot?
AP (13:05):
You could potentially call a 3D printer a robot. If you wanted - at a stretch - you
could call your washing machine a robot. Somethingthat takes a task that was traditionally done
by humans, and automates it, and has somekind of mechanical interaction with its environment.
I would generally draw the line with the washingmachine and the 3D printer not being robots,
(13:28):
because they’re not really ‘repurpose-able.’‘Repurpose-able?’ Yeah, we're gonna say
‘repurpose-able.’OF: ‘Repurpose-ability’, baby.
Yes! OF
what a robot is? Or this is some kind of universallyaccepted term?
I don't think there is one absolutely fixed definition of a robot, they vary from
(13:50):
source to source. Broadly, people think aboutsomething that in some way resembles a human.
OF (13:56):
Right. AP
of it. But then if you're looking at stufflike autonomous cars, that doesn’t…
That’s a robot. AP
a horse than a human. It's a constant evolutionof work, of what people do in order to feed
(14:16):
themselves. It's changed constantly. Whensomeone invented the wheel, that took away
the job of the person who was maybe carryingsomeone previously, or the donkey that was
doing it. This is the way that things evolve,and we just need to ensure that it has good
outcomes.OF: Yeah. Very good. Well what is the competition
(14:37):
that you're facing here in China?AP: The innovation landscape here is unique
and interesting. The fact that everythingis made here, means that you can iterate on
designs extremely fast. So if the factorythat's making your prototypes is 10 minutes
down the road, you can send them somethingand they'll update it, and they will build
(14:59):
you a new one, and send it within a day ortwo.
Right. AP
very very quickly. And that's not just forrobotics, that's for all different sorts of
things. And the way people look at intellectualproperty here is kind of different as well.
It’s not as taboo to kind of copy somethingthat someone else has done, it is kind of
seen as sort of a mark of respect, almost.“This is a great thing, I want to make something
(15:22):
like this.” So that has resulted in lotsof products that are very similar to ours
coming out of the Chinese market.OF: I'm guessing specifically products like
yours. Because it would be a lot harder forthem to try and compete with the big robots
that we would see coming out of, let's say,Japan or Germany, right?
AP (15:40):
Yeah, there have been European and Japanese players that have been doing this for 30/40/50
years, and that technology is mature, I wouldsay. Whereas the whole sphere of collaborative
robots only started 15 years ago, pretty much.So the policymakers here see that sub-section
of industrial robots as one that China canstill potentially catch up and take the lead
(16:05):
on. And that's why there is a lot of investmentgoing into this area as well, in China.
OF (16:10):
Well that might make your life a little bit more full of headache than otherwise it
might have been.AP: I mean, we're all working towards the
same end goal. So ultimately it's good, it'sgoing to improve the lives of more people.
And all of the local competition, I wouldsay, is striving to have a product that is
50/60% as good as ours, and try to drive pricesdown. But for the most easy to programme,
(16:34):
the most feature laden, the most mature, themost stable platform, then customers are still
choosing ours. So if it's easy to buy, butnot easy to use, those people are never going
to come back.OF: Well let's talk about that, then. So the
‘ease of use’, what you mean about thatis, you need less than less input from the
human being, correct?AP: Yes.
(16:55):
And this is where it's not just about the mechanics of it, it's about converging
other technologies on to the mechanics ofit.
AP (17:02):
Yeah. OF
So as I've said, we've got an interface for controlling - for programming - this system
that is a big step in the right directiontowards ‘ease of use’, compared to what
robot systems looked like previously. Butyou are telling the robot exactly what to
do in every scenario, that's essentially whatthe logic of the programme that you're writing
(17:25):
is. “If you find this situation, you needto do this.” If something isn't exactly
how it expected it to be, you're probablyjust going to have the robot stop and say
“I need help.” There's no way to dealwith variation in the environment. But there
are things going on that look like they'regoing to make a difference in that way. When
we come to have more AI and vision processinginvolved in robot applications, instead of
(17:50):
you specifically having to say what to doin every scenario, if it can see something
is not quite right - because it's lookingall the time - and it can compare that to
previous scenarios that its seen before, thenit becomes easier, and you'll have to spend
less time telling it exactly what to do.OF: Yes, these small robots - this convenience
- and then you converge that with the vision: it can see what's going on around it, then (18:09):
undefined
react to what it can see, and learn how todo it differently. That's the future, right?
AP (18:20):
Yeah. And there's maybe even more of a need for that with collaborative scenarios,
because people are inherently unpredictable.They don't do things exactly the same every
time. So you need a system that can deal withthose variances, and continue working.
OF (18:35):
Uh-huh. Yeah, which then makes it more productive. But then this is where it also
gets into scary territory, right? Becauseit's scary enough when it's just the robotics,
we're talking about literally just takingover jobs of human beings. But then when we
go into AI… And you're looking at me witha very neutral expression, like “Oh, what's
he going to say?” Come on, you must haveheard this. The whole scariness about robots
(18:58):
taking over the world. I mean, even thoughyou're working on this very specific thing,
what part do you play in this?AP: I think these sort of AI tasks that we're
talking about here, are in a very narrow space.It's about making it slightly more capable
to deal with variation in one scenario. Thiskind of broad AI - where it knows how to handle
(19:18):
all different kind of scenarios, and makedecisions - like, that it's a very long way
away from what we're talking about in thiskind of narrow space here. I don't think we're
that close to it yet, I'm not exactly in thatfield. But from what I see from the sorts
of AI tasks that we're looking at integratinghere, it's not that.
But you're close to having AI in these small robots, so that it can start to learn.
(19:40):
That's coming up in the next iteration ortwo of these robots?
AP (19:43):
Yeah, there are third party systems that can augment our products with that sort of
functionality.OF: Ah.
As soon as the robustness, the reliability of those systems, and the price comes down,
then yeah.OF: You're talking about the robustness. But
then, the driverless vehicles, for example.I mean, some experts say it's a matter of
years, and some experts say it'll never happen.Where are you on that spectrum?
(20:07):
I think we're quite close. Tesla has rolled out their autopilot software, which - to cover
themselves - you still have to be in the driver'sseat, with your eyes open, and your hands
on the wheel in order for it to function.But it can essentially do it. I've not tried
it myself, I've tried an older version whereit would just stay in lane, but not the full
autopilot kind of thing. Yeah, it seems tobe there. I mean, you still need the legislation
(20:29):
side of things.OF: Yes.
So there is a hell of a lot of regulation that needs to go around this. And that's probably
what's going to slow things down, is thatwe've got to be really certain that this is
all right, and safe, and everyone signs offon it.
OF (20:43):
Yeah. AP
potentially.OF: Except for, if there is some country in
the world that fast-tracks it, because theywant to have the first mover advantage. Can
you imagine that it might be a kind of regulatoryrace to the bottom, to try and be at the head
of the competition?AP: I can't imagine anyone being reckless
with this.OF: Yeah.
AP (21:04):
Because the consequences are quite severe. OF
in your story, because it's not everyone youmeet on the streets who comes from the world
of robotics. It's one of the reasons why,when I first met you, I was very excited to
understand what you do. How did you get intothis field?
So, from the robotics degree in England, I had a Chinese professor, and I wanted to
(21:27):
travel when I finished my undergraduate degree,and he helped me get a job in his previous
university where he did his PhD in 西安[Xī’ān].
OF (21:35):
Ah, 西安 [Xī’ān]. That was your first place in China.
AP (21:38):
It was, that is my 老家 [lǎojiā] in China, yeah.
OF (21:40):
Yeah, I've only been as the tourist, what's it like to live in 西安 [Xī’ān]?
AP (21:45):
Phenomenal. So I went from the north of England to that ancient capital of 13 dynasties
in the middle of China. And these beautifulcity walls, and then you've got the Bell Tower
and the Drum Tower. And then you add to thatsome fantastic noodles, which also made me
enjoy it even more. The 西安 [Xī’ān]-esecuisine is still my favourite type of Chinese
(22:06):
food.OF: How do you define 西安 [Xī’ān]-ese
cuisine?AP: Wide wide noodles, with a healthy dose
of chilli and garlic and oil. Intense flavours,I think. But yeah, very good.
OF (22:18):
And these are handmade noodles. AP
Would they be as delicious if a robot had made them?
AP (22:24):
I think so. A well-programmed robot, yes. OF
working?AP: Yes, so 50% of the time working in the
university. So there are a number of studentrobotics competitions in China and around
the world, and I was helping to prepare someof the student teams for those competitions,
(22:47):
football competition. So using either robotswith wheels, or little humanoid legged robots,
to try to win a football competition. Andyou basically just set them down, and then
your programme has to make all of decisionsfor the whole game. So you can't make any
adjustments, you’ve just got to kind of…OF: Watch it go.
…Hope that you’ve programmed it well enough that you can deal with these different
scenarios.OF: OK.
(23:08):
That was interesting, I'd never been involved in those sorts of competitions before. But
because I had a kind of different way of approachingchallenges, maybe I could help them look at
things from a different perspective. And thenI spent the rest of my time in Chinese classes
in the university as well. So that's kindof what got me hooked, and why I'm still here
15 years later.OF: Oh wow, right. What is the future for
(23:30):
you then? So do you see yourself staying inthis field? Do you see yourself staying in
China?AP: Well, I think for the rest of my life
I'm definitely going to be in and out of China.This is my third stint here now, I have gone
and done other things and come back again.I think that's going to continue. I really
enjoy the challenges of living here and thefulfilment that I get from speaking Mandarin
(23:54):
and just interacting with people here. Somaybe we'll be away for a little while again,
and then come back again. But I think, yeah,this is a lifelong, career-long thing, my
interaction with China.OF: Well thank you Andrew.
Thank you very much. OF
OK.
[Part 2]OF: So here are the 10 questions, I ask everyone
(24:17):
who is sitting on that chair these same 10questions. I'm not entirely sure what to expect
from the likes of you, Andrew. Are you goingto be robotic about these answers?
We’ll see, won’t we. OF
from Shanghai Daily (24:32):
What is your favourite China-related fact?
AP (24:36):
I’m gonna stay robotic on this one, in that there are now over a million industrial
robots deployed in China. That’s almostthree times as much as the next largest deployment
base, which is Japan.OF: Wow.
So it's the centre of the robotic manufacturing world now. Japan, Korea, the U.S. and Germany
(24:57):
are the next four, and I think it's - don’thold me to it, but - somewhere in the realm
of all those four put together are equal towhat we've got set up in China.
OF (25:05):
And is that just a function of there being that much more manufacturing in China?
AP (25:10):
Yeah. OF
Rosetta Stone (25:14):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
AP (25:18):
入乡随俗 [Rùxiāng Suísú]
OF (25:22):
Ah. AP
the people do’, which I think has done mefairly well here in my years in China…
Yes. AP
pretty much. And very happy to go into littleplaces, and be able to chat with people, and
just experience a little bit of what whattheir lives are like here. I really enjoy
(25:44):
that. And I use it to justify maybe skippingin line in a train station or something…
Oh no. AP
“Well that's just what you do here, isn’tit?”
Yes. Oh dear me, yes. AP
Yeah, I like it. Next question, which comes from naked Retreats
destination within China?AP: Can you guess, based on the conversation
(26:05):
that we've just had?OF: I would it’s 西安 [Xī’ān].
AP (26:07):
It is 西安 [Xī’ān], yeah. I love going back there.
OF (26:10):
How often do you go back? AP
year. It's not been so much recently, maybetwice in the last three years, three times
the last three years, something like that.OF: Yeah. Which just goes to show how tricky
it is to travel in these times, right?AP: Yeah.
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
AP (26:27):
The most, it’s going to have to be Taobao, I think.
OF (26:33):
This is so funny, because I wouldn't put you as a Taobao kind of guy. Because normally
it’s, like, fashionistas who are buyingdresses, and who are buying all kinds of cute
things. But no, even the robot guy is addictedto Taobao.
AP (26:46):
Yeah, every electronics product, every electronics component, has an outlet from
the factory straight on to Taobao that canbe at your door within a couple of days.
OF (26:56):
Oh wow. AP
on Taobao, and then going to Singapore andseeing what the mark-up is, it's incredible.
Yes. AP
is so rapid here as well.OF: Yes.
AP (27:08):
Because you can buy all this stuff and… OF
Prototype, yeah. OF
it elsewhere.AP: Yeah.
OF (27:15):
And then what about the thing you'd missed the least?
AP (27:17):
Potentially, having to check the air quality in the mornings. That's a bit of a drag, and
especially with little lungs to worry about.OF: You mean your children?
Yes. I think I have normal-sized lungs, but they have little lungs.
OF (27:30):
You've got how many kids? AP
What age? AP
Yes, this is it. Like, now I've stopped paying attention to it - and I have the feeling
it's getting better, and so I kind of justlive my life - but I guess when you have little
kids, you start to get more “What is theindex today,” right?
AP (27:48):
Yeah. And it's improved so much since the early days. And the worst polluted days
now are roughly on par with the least polluteddays then.
OF (27:58):
Yes. Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
AP (28:04):
Yes, I think that's why I'm still here. Just, things on the street. Even in Shanghai,
which is a top level city, you still can walkaround the corner and see things that you
just don't understand why they're happening.But you love that they're happening. My wife
told me - coming to meet me on Sunday - thatshe saw an old lady cuddling a duck on the
(28:26):
street, on the way there. And it’s like"I don't know why… Why is that happening?”
But I'm very happy that it is.OF: Listen, the world needs much more duck
cuddling than it has right now. I'm all forit. I'm trying to think if I've seen a duck
being cuddled on the street. I think I'veseen a monkey, I've seen a turtle… Of course
dogs dressed in all kinds of clothing, butthat I think is a global trend now, that’s
(28:49):
not just Shanghai, right?AP: Turtles on a stick.
OF (28:51):
Yeah. AP
Yeah, yeah. But that's so common, right? I think I see them once a week.
AP (28:56):
Yeah. OF
Where is your favourite place to go, to eat,drink, or hang out?
We're living in 静安 [Jìng’ān], and there's a new development opened up quite
close called 陕康里 [Shǎnkānglǐ].OF: Oh yes.
It has a number of bars and restaurants - it has a tap house with some decent beer
and a courtyard that's away from the road- so you can drink beer and let the kids run
(29:19):
around. It’s a nice combination.OF: There you go.
Not particularly cultural, but it’s easy.
OF (29:25):
Yeah, you've got that combination of having a beer, but then also being a pseudo-responsible
parent.AP: Mmm. ‘Pseudo.’
Next question, what is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
AP (29:40):
This is very hard, because the Taobao history goes back a long long way. The best
one in recent memory is… When we returnedto China in March 2020 - just before the borders
closed - we had to do 14 days of home quarantine.OF: Oh yeah.
So there were a number of purchases to set up an adventure playground in our living
(30:00):
room, with ball pits, and tunnels, and differentclimbing frames and stuff. I think I did a
pretty good job with that one.OF: I've got a feeling that you had more fun
putting it up than your kid had playing withit.
That's entirely possible. OF
kids. When you have kids, you can sort ofstart to re-live your childhood, and become
(30:22):
a kid yourself.AP: Yeah, I now have an excuse to be as childish
as I was in the interim between being a childmyself and having children. But now I don't
have to hide it so much.OF: Because I don't have kids - and I'm now
in my mid forties - and sometimes I wonderif I'm very childish because I don't have
a kid. But maybe… men are just childish.That's the conclusion.
(30:43):
Yeah. OF
阿姨 [Āyí] fight club. OF
you mean. Can you explain what this is?AP: This is a disagreement between two 阿姨
[āyí]s who decided to resolve it by kickingeach other. And I'm not sure if I've actually
(31:04):
seen this exact thing on the street. But itseems like a nice example of also something
that still… maybe doesn't surprise me, butI just love seeing silly things happening
on the street.OF: Yes.
And they happen quite a lot around here. OF
The first thing is that this has been chosenbefore. In Season 02 there was a Belgian/English
(31:24):
architect called Wendy Saunders, and she chosethis exact favourite stick for the exact same
reason. And it also reminds me of actuallyEpisode 01 of Season 01, which was Philippe
Gas, the CEO of Disneyland Shanghai, and hewas saying how you see people shouting at
each other on the streets, and - even to theextent that they might be violent, like this
(31:45):
sticker - it is part of the way people communicate.It's the kind of energy that I enjoy being
around, even though it can sometimes spillover into things like this sticker.
Yeah, if you've never experienced it before, it seems like people are very angry. But that's
not necessarily always the case, is it?OF: Yes.
It’s a different sort of etiquette. OF
(32:08):
to sing at KTV?AP: It's been a while since I've sung it.
But ‘Dreadlock Holiday’ by 10cc.OF: What the hell is that?
It's kind of ska/reggae-ish. OF
Yeah. But you can find it on the KTV systems, if you look hard enough.
OF (32:25):
Oh, really? AP
I'm not sure I know it. Like, what is this song?
AP (32:28):
I’m not gonna sing it, I'll recite the words to you if you want.
OF (32:32):
Which one is it? AP
Oh! AP
OK, I know this one. This is such a deep cut in terms of British culture. I'm sure
no-one else knows this song, apart from Brits,AP: Er yeah, I think that's probably right,
yeah.OF: In case anyone doesn't know, it goes:
“I don't like cricket. Oh no.”AP: “I love it.”
(32:55):
I can't stand cricket. Are you a cricket fan?
AP (33:00):
No, not at all. OF
KTV, it would be the opposite of cross-culturalcommunication. It wouldn't bring people to
you, it would completely repel people.AP: I'm mainly in KTV for my own enjoyment,
so that doesn’t really bother me. I knownobody else enjoys it when I sing, but I do
(33:21):
sometimes.OF: Very good. I would never have guessed
that that was available at KTV in China. Evennow, right, you find it?
Yep. OF
comes to us from from JustPod, which is thestudio we are recording this in today: What
or who is your biggest source of inspirationin China?
So I think ‘what’
(33:45):
inspires me to keep learning, and to keeplearning more about the country. And just,
I see characters that I don't know on thestreet every day, and I just still want to
keep understanding what they mean, how yousay them, where they come from. I guess that
plugs into the engineering sort of attention-to-detailthing as well, that if I see something I don't
know, I always want to pull out my phone andlook it up. Which is considered as mildly
(34:09):
antisocial by some, but I still do it. I'llnever get to the end of the dictionary on
that one.OF: Yeah.
There’s still always so much more to learn. And it fascinates me.
OF (34:18):
Well said. Thank you so much, Andrew. I appreciate that you were able to talk about
something which is very complicated, in away which is quite accessible. I'm sure you
dumbed it down, I don't know how many degrees.But I found it fascinating. I definitely look
forward to seeing how this progresses. Someof me thinks it's for the better, and the
(34:38):
other half is still a little bit scared. Butthank you for at least taking the edge off
the most scary parts.AP: You're very welcome. Let's revisit it
in 20 years and see where we’re at.OF: That is, again, wishful thinking. Before
I let you leave, tell me out of everyone youknow in China, who would you recommend that
I interview for the next season of Mosaicof China?
AP (34:59):
So, Alex Mok. She is a Swedish architect, and I think she would be a great person for
you to talk to.OF: OK. Thank you. Short. Concise. Thanks
again for your time today, Andrew.AP: Thank you very much.
[Outro]OF: So the biggest update since the time Andrew
and I did this recording is that he and hisfamily have moved to the U.S. He’s still
(35:23):
with Universal Robots, and his new role isin global product innovation. And as Andrew
mentioned, his career has always been in andout of China, so let’s see how long it takes
before he’s back in this part of the world.
Please head to the Mosaic of China websiteor social media to see all the extra photos
and graphics from today’s show, just doa search for mosaicofchina on Facebook or
(35:47):
LinkedIn, or oscology on Instagram and WeChat.The most hilarious of all the photos Andrew
shared was the one in which illustrates hisinterpretation of his favourite phrase in
Chinese, which was 入乡随俗 [rùxiāngsuísú]. I mention this in particular because
the English equivalent phrase of ‘When inRome’ goes some way to explain how these
(36:09):
Chinese 成语 [chéngyǔ] idioms work. InEnglish, you can just say “When in Rome,”
you don’t need to say the whole phrase whichexplains that it’s about ‘doing as the
Romans do.’ Neither do you need to knowthat the phrase originates from the letters
of Pope Clement XIV in 1777. But you willcertainly know how confusing it would be to
(36:30):
say it to someone who is a beginner in English.So that will give you a sense of how confounding
it is to try and cope with the hundreds of成语 [chéngyǔ] that crop up in Chinese.
Today’s PREMIUM version of the show is anotherbumper edition, there’s an extra 20 minutes
of content this week. As always, you’llfind all the information on how to subscribe
(36:52):
at mosaicofchina.com, but in the meantimehere are a few clips:
[Clip 1]OF: When you're looking at Taobao in the future,
you'll start to see some Chinese competitorsalready put things up there.
Yeah. I've found them on Taobao before. [Clip 2]
The shoulder joint on the human arm is crazy complicated, so we've kind of separated
those out and just put them next to each other.[Clip 3]
I rock up with my suitcase and just drop it in between two people on the production
(37:15):
line, it’s really not very disruptive.[Clip 4]
Elderly care for China, there aren't going to be as many younger family members to look
after the older people.[Clip 5]
OF (37:24):
They have the bed which shoots Wallace down into his pants.
AP (37:27):
I haven't quite managed to build that one yet.
[Clip 6]AP: Robots jumping over crates and doing backflips:
I do wonder when I see those videos, how heavilychoreographed they are.
[Clip 7]OF: I'm not gonna question it too much. I'm
gonna just try and relax about this wholething.
[Clip 8]AP: 机器人 [Jīqìrén].
OF (37:44):
机器人 [Jīqìrén]. AP
Seriously? AP
[End of Audio Clips]
Andrew mentioned the innovation landscapein China, particularly among Chinese competitors.
So a fascinating accompaniment to this episodeis my chat with Gina Li from Season 01 Episode
06, who tells the exact flip-side to Andrew’sstory. Of course another overlap is with the
(38:08):
recent episode with the CTO Eric Liu in Episode01 of this Season, whose work on the Metaverse
in China is also converging with ArtificialIntelligence. And finally, Andrew also mentioned
the way people look at intellectual propertyhere in China. So for an in-depth look into
that world, you definitely need to listento the episode with the lawyer Vittorio Franzese
(38:30):
from Season 02 Episode 27.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. If you enjoy fairly technical
conversations like today’s episode, thenyou’re also going to like the following
catch-ups, firstly with the fire engineerMichael Kinsey from Season 02 Episode 25 and
(38:50):
then with ‘the FinTech Philosopher’ himself,Srinivas Yanamandra. And we’ll be back with
another full episode next week.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Hello Michael.
MK (39:06):
Hello. OF
you so much since we did our recording, butwe have been in touch electronically all the
time.MK: Yeah, absolutely.
OF (39:18):
Well for anyone who didn't hear your original episode, I should explain that you are a fire
engineer. How would you explain it?MK: We work with other engineers and architects,
helping make sure their part of the designis safe for people during fires, or hopefully
prevents the fires happening in the firstplace.
Yeah. MK
(39:40):
multi-level high-speed train.OF: Oh.
MK (39:42):
And this was a prototype train, so it's super interesting. Previously, we'd done evacuation
trials of a high-speed train. But now we'redoing a multi-level train.
OF (39:51):
How interesting. I've seen those in Germany. I don't think I've seen them anywhere else
in the world, actually. Have they startedrunning in China yet?
MK (39:59):
There are some. They're typically a bit taller than normal high-speed trains.
OF (40:03):
Right. MK
can run them on. We were looking at humanbehaviour; looking at how we could get people
off in efficient ways; some of the problemspeople might have; recording performance of
how long it takes people to do things. Thathas been absolutely fascinating.
Interesting. What about the next thing then, Michael. So what is next for you?
MK (40:22):
So, I'm actually planning on leaving Shanghai. I'm going to be staying with my current company
Arup, and I'm transferring to their Birminghamoffice in the UK.
OF (40:32):
Right. MK
mum in Shanghai, we're divorced. With me leaving,the kids are going to stay here for now. Yeah,
it's been an interesting ride, my daughteris coming up to eleven, my son is coming up
to nine. My daughter is fine speaking English,but my son doesn't like it. So I have to try
(40:53):
and balance the two. Sometimes even get mydaughter to translate, if I can't quite communicate
what I want to say.OF: Wow.
MK (40:59):
So the plan in terms of the kids are, we're hopeful that they can come to the UK
for high school.OF: Oh right.
So the idea is that they've had an education where they can learn, read and write Chinese;
probably had a slightly higher amount of disciplineinstilled; and then when they come to the
UK, hopefully they can have the best of bothworlds. In terms of me missing them, the idea
is we're going to have regular video chats.Of course, it's not going to be the same.
(41:22):
YeahOF: It's lucky that they're at the age where
they can at least understand what's goingon. You know, it's not like they are toddlers,
and suddenly you're gone, and you're onlyon a computer screen. They get it.
Absolutely. I mean, when we first came here - this was like six and a half years
ago - they were totally different. Now they'reolder, I feel a bit more comfortable that
they have a slightly more settled life. Theygo to school here, they can understand when
(41:44):
I tell them “You know, Daddy's going tobe going to another country, but will still
love you very much."OF: Yeah. MK: “I'm here for you. If you ever need
me, you just call me, I'll come.” That kindof stuff. It's hard conversations. Coming
here was a hard decision in many ways. Goingthrough a divorce in a foreign country was
also a challenge.OF: Yeah.
I had to fly to 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] to get the divorce done, on my own. No translator
(42:06):
or anything. And they were like “What areyou doing here?" And I said “Well, I'm here
to get a divorce.” And they were like “What?”OF: Wow.
So the time in China is littered with those sort of stories. When you look back,
you think “Wow, how did that happen?”And, yeah, it gives you confidence in what
you're doing, I guess in some ways.OF: Oh, Birmingham will be a breeze after
this. No, I appreciate that Michael, becauseI got to know you in terms of what you do.
(42:30):
But I think it's nice to cover this part ofyour life, just briefly in this chat as well.
Yeah. OF
the next season sadly also left Shanghai.It's a shame, but at the at the same time
I'm very glad that you are part of this project.It gives me an excuse now to keep in touch
with you, as you move on with your careeraround the world. So good luck with the future.
(42:53):
Thanks a lot.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Hey Srini, nice to see you.
SY (42:58):
Good to see you again, thank you. OF
Yes. I moved to Hyderabad. So for the last three months, I'm continuing my new role
here in this place.OF: Are you still working in the field of
compliance?SY: In fact I think you pushed me to my new
role. That's what I should say. I still amin the compliance profession, but I have moved
(43:23):
more to the FinTech side - the largest FinTechcompany in India, Paytm - truly as a ‘FinTech
Philosopher.’OF: Ah, that's so funny. I thought of your
compliance role going into the realm of technology.I think that was where I came up with the
title ‘Fintech'. But you're right, it wasn'tvery accurate. But now you've made it accurate.
(43:44):
Indeed, because I work for the largest FinTech payment company. And we have got the
same kind of a cookbook from what we haveseen in China. The same thing is happening
in India, but at a much faster pace. The FinTechpayments need some amount of ecosystem, governance
and compliance. So that is one part of therole. And personally - as you know me - I
(44:05):
keep thinking about these things in a littlemore of a contemporary context. So I started
doing my doctoral thesis - my second doctoralresearch - that I’ve started to pursue.
Which is about the metaverse actually, andthe kind of reality that the metaverse is
going to bring.OF: In our last catch-up - which was now 18
months ago - I think you mentioned that youhad just started some research in bioethics
(44:30):
at that point, correct?SY: So that was a global masters in bioethics
from Anáhuac University in Mexico. So thatis already in progress actually. But because
of this relocation - because of the time thatit takes to spend on weekends - I was a bit
delayed. So that is getting completed in aboutsix months time.
OF (44:49):
You already are a doctor. So you already have one PhD, how many masters and PhDs do
you actually have at this point?SY: I have one, but I have a fascination to
have three. So this will be my second one.OF: Oh my god.
SY (45:04):
But I'm expecting - at least by the end of my life - I should have three PhDs.
OF (45:08):
You know, when I talk to people doing their PhDs, they say what a nightmare it is,
and how they only just survived with theirfaculties intact. And you want to have three?
Oh my word.SY: It's like, how do you create an album
for your life? When you work professionally,you will get a lot of these ‘reflections
of the world’. And if you can codify thesereflections into some form of academic writing,
(45:28):
it solidifies what you have done professionally.OF: Yeah.
SY (45:31):
So each of your PhDs is your like an album that you are creating, for the five or six
years of the professional journey that youhave done.
OF (45:37):
I totally understand that. Well let's talk about your leaving China, because when
somebody who was on the Mosaic does leave,the first thing I do is to remind you what
you said that you would miss the most - andmiss the least - when you left China. So now
I can test if it's true or not. So you saidthat you would miss walking to work - which
(46:00):
actually was quite a luxury for anyone inShanghai too - and you said that you wouldn't
miss having no access to your Telugu movies.Is that what you miss the most and miss the
least? Or what is the reality?SY: The reality is that I could regain both
those things now. So even the walking is likefive minutes away, because I'm mostly operating
(46:20):
in a tech company. And they have given mea work from home option. So I think that has
come back. And then with the added alternativeof watching Telugu movies, at least every
week, we wind up in getting into one or anothermovie. Please watch the South Indian movie
called ‘RRR’ (46:39):
the best movie which you can watch. International standard. It is awesome.
You should watch that movie.OF: Well there you go. I always knew you were
a superfan, but now you are becoming an ambassadorfor Bollywood as well. Well Srini, I want
(46:59):
to thank you as usual for being part of thisproject. It's now been two updates following
our original episode, and I hope that we havethis excuse to keep in touch every year at
least.SY: Definitely, Oscar. And I should thank
you personally, and to all the viewers. Becauseevery time you do this kind of podcast, I
always have a surge in my connections list- on LinkedIn WeChat and Facebook, some way
(47:22):
or another they come in - and thanks to you,it is actually keeping me lively and engaged.
And I look forward to staying in touch, thankyou.
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