May 31, 2021 • 35 mins
Most of us are guilty of putting items in our shopping trolleys without giving one moment's thought as to where they came from. Jo McFarland doesn't have that luxury, because she's the one in charge of sourcing thousands of items - from around 500 factories in China - for two of the most famous high-street retail names in the United Kingdom, Sainsbury's and Argos. Sourcing manufactured goods may sound a little prosaic, but Jo's story brings the world of factories in China directly to our doorstep. And it's a world that has defined China's integral position in the global retail supply chain for the last two decades. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Jorge Luzio from Season 01 Episode 05. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-05-jorge-luzio). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 00:58 - Part 1 16:57 - Part 2 26:37 - Outro 29:42 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-18-jo-mcfarland.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: What had you planned that you would sell,
but in the end because of COVID did not sell?JM: Luggage.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I like today's episode because it's a subjectmatter that in the wrong hands could be a
(00:26):
little bit mundane. We're talking about thesubject of sourcing goods from factories.
But as with many other subjects, you can transplantit into the context of China - and get someone
with a lovely attitude, like my guest today,Jo McFarland - and that subject totally comes
to life.
As with every episode, if you're not a nativeEnglish speaker and you're finding it hard
(00:47):
to follow the conversation, you can head tohttps://mosaicofchina.com to read the full
transcript of the show, or head to YouTubewhere you can follow the subtitles in real
time.
[Part 1]OF: Welcome Jo, nice to meet you.
JM (01:02):
Thank you very much, Oscar. Thank you very much for having me here today.
OF (01:05):
I don't know why I said "meet you” because I know you very well. We actually first met
in Hong Kong when we were sitting in the hairdresserof Elaine Swanson.
JM (01:13):
I was going to say. You were having a rinse.
OF (01:16):
I was having a rinse; you were sitting there sipping something sparkling.
JM (01:20):
Water? OF
been back to Hong Kong, we haven't seen Elaine,so a big shout out to Elaine for bringing
us together in the first place.JM: Absolutely.
OF (01:31):
And I love your accent. People would already have noticed that you have a specific accent.
So what is that?JM: Well actually, for those of you who watch
British TV, and have seen ‘Derry Girls’,I'm actually a Derry girl. I left Northern
Ireland an extremely long time ago, but Iclearly haven't managed to shake off my Derry
(01:53):
accent, despite the fact that I've lived allover England, Scotland for a really long time,
and I've lived in Asia for about seven years.So you can take the girl out of Derry, but…
Certainly, you cannot take that accent out. But neither would I want you to, that
would be a shame. And this is a funny thing,because Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
(02:15):
But you can't really call yourself ‘British’because ‘Great Britain’ is the island
that is across the water from Northern Ireland.So what do you call yourself? Do you call
yourself ‘Irish’?JM: Oh, see, you're opening a whole can of
worms here, if we go into Irish politics.To be honest with you, I have a British passport,
but I also have an Irish passport. So I guessin today's terminology, I would say I identify
(02:39):
as both.OF: Well, before we get any further, what
I would ask you immediately is, what is theobject that you have brought that in some
way describes your life in China? Is it inthe other room? Oh, what is that?
JM (02:55):
Oscar, I'm surprised that you can't recognise this immediately. It is clearly a bottle of
red wine. Now the thing that's really interestingabout this bottle of wine, is that it is Chinese
red wine. And it's made in a vineyard here.And the President of this particular wine
company is actually a woman. And the reasonwhy this represents China to me, is that it
(03:21):
says to me how exciting a place that Chinais. Because here, they can truly make anything
happen. So, you know, when you think of redwine, you think of France and Italy, maybe
some new world red wine, but China doesn'tautomatically spring to mind, right? Whereas
this is actually fantastic wine. And alsothe way that women have very senior roles
(03:46):
in China. Now, I first came out here probably20-ish years ago. And it was, of course, very
male dominated. But not any more. And thatis another example of the way China can adapt
and change, and why it makes it such an excitingplace to be.
OF (04:02):
Nice. And I hope that you also enjoy drinking that one too.
JM (04:07):
Absolutely. OF
you said in that intro is, that you have hadan association with China now for about 20
years. So what is that background?JM: So I work for a really large retailer
in the UK, very famous (04:23):
Sainsbury's/Argos. So Sainsbury’s, of course, one the big four
supermarkets; and Argos, you know has thecatalogue of dreams. And I've worked with
the business… I've had my anniversary thisweek, actually. Combined Argos and Sainsbury’s,
20 years this year. So my role has alwaysbeen about bringing great product directly
(04:47):
from factories into the UK, and 80% of theUK shop at Argos. So it's a British institution.
And the reason why Argos became so famousback in the day, is that it made luxury product
- or perceived luxury product - accessibleto everyone. And Argos went direct to factory
(05:10):
and sourced them in a way that made them affordablefor everyone.
OF (05:14):
How would you describe the way that you interface with the customer?
JM (05:17):
Yeah, it's an extremely unique model that doesn't translate anywhere else in the world.
So basically, it had a catalogue where youcould choose which product you wanted at home.
And then you'd go into the store, write downthe catalogue number of the product you wanted,
and then a nice chap would go to the warehouseat the back and bring out your product. So
(05:39):
all the selection was done from a catalogue,as opposed to off the shelf.
OF (05:43):
Let me then ask you about Sainsbury’s, because this came later on in the picture,
right? Explain what happened with Sainsbury's?JM: Yeah, so Sainsbury's bought Argos four
years ago. So we’re Sainsbury’s/Argosnow. It was quite a big thing to happen in
the UK, because it was two retail giants thatbasically came together. So it's a bit of
(06:04):
a one-stop shop for consumers that makes usunique in the UK market.
Well there you go, that is your intro. To anyone who did not know retail in the UK,
you need know nothing more (06:14):
Sainsbury's is the supermarket, and Argos is more general
goods, everything.JM: Yeah, we call it ‘general merchandise’
because it's basically everything.OF: Maybe people are scratching their heads
now about why we’re talking about retailin the UK. But perhaps they have worked out
what your role is here in China. So what isit that you do?
JM (06:34):
So here, I run the Shanghai Sainsbury’s/Argos sourcing office. So we have nearly 100 colleagues
up here, all local, and they work with factoriesright across China, where we develop our own
brand product, and then we facilitate bringingit from the factory into the UK. So we're
(06:55):
responsible for finding fabulous factories.And we have about 500 factories that we use
here, because we cover such a vast range ofproduct. And then we have to facilitate the
supply chain to get it from the factory intothe UK on time, every time. Sounds simple,
but yeah, there's quite a lot of challengein there.
OF (07:17):
Well, this is why I was excited to have you interviewed, because this is what China
has been known for, over the last 20 years.The fact that it has been a manufacturing
hub and the integral part of the supply chainof so many retailers around the world. What
actually do you source within the group?JM: All sorts. See, I've got three different
areas and it's very wide. So, ‘Electrical’: washing machines, tumble dryers, through to (07:37):
undefined
the charger for your mobile. But also tablets,mobile phones, radios, all that kind of stuff.
Then I've got another team who do ‘GardenPower’: very glamorous, so that's your lawnmowers,
strimmers; Leisure, so like trampolines, outdoortoys, camping, and sports. And then I also
(08:04):
have another team which does product morefor the Sainsbury's channel, things like Events:
so like Christmas, Hallowe’en, Valentine'sDay, so you know, like cards, wrap, gifts,
all of that type of product. So I have a verywide remit, and very different factories within
that.OF: Yeah, there's so many different things.
(08:27):
Can you actually get economies of scale?JM: Well, as I said at the start, 80% of the
UK population shop at Argos, and Sainsbury'shas 26 million shoppers a week. So we have
huge volume. So we ship a vast number of containersfrom an individual factory. So we are a major
(08:49):
exporter out of China.OF: So if I want to buy a trampoline, I'll
go through you.JM: Yes. But there aren't very many factories
in China that do trampolines.OF: I mean, trampolines, it's not that common,
come on.JM: We sell thousands and thousands.
OF (09:02):
Really. JM
year. We could not ship enough trampolines.OF: Well, this is a good question. Because
when you suddenly change your shopping habitsbecause you're stuck at home, that has a direct
impact on people like you, right?JM: Well, because we have our nice shiny forecasts
that we do every year, and COVID just threwthat out the window. So we started off, and
(09:25):
the factories were closed because of course,China kind of shut itself down to try and
cope with the virus. So then we were kindof screaming at factories to say “How are
we going to get our product out?” And thenvery quickly, the virus hit the UK and then
we had to close stand-alone stores. So thenwe thought “Oh! We’re not going to sell
anything!” So then we were basically tryingto turn it off in factories. But actually
what happened was, people were stuck at homein lockdown, and they went crazy buying everything.
(09:50):
For certain products, we had monumental demand.So like sports, for example. So things like
small weights, yoga mats, treadmills, youknow our demand for that is up 100% year-on-year.
Totally, I can just imagine that. And what about the flip side? Like, what had you
planned that you would sell, but in the endbecause of COVID did not sell?
JM (10:12):
Luggage. And portable DVD. Because portable DVD is for the kids to watch on long car journeys.
So I’m afraid it was a little bit of a disaster.OF: Oh, I love that. I should have known,
but yeah, that is brilliant. And so let'sgo back then to normal times. So when things
(10:35):
are running smoothly, it is an amazingly well-oiledmachine. To just think about how somebody
in the UK going into a store, they can pickup this item, and they wouldn't have a clue
that it has somehow gone through the supplychain, and it's ended up in their very hands,
right? That's the thing that still amazesme, which is just an everyday thing, of course,
about modern trade. But what happens whenit goes wrong, like what things can go wrong?
(10:59):
Oh, it can be all sorts of things. So even though we've got very strict inspection
processes - in the factory; before it’sshipped; when it arrives in the UK - sometimes
we do get technical problems with product.And that's kind of the worst thing that happens.
So a customer buys a product, takes it home,and it doesn't work. Or they find something
(11:22):
that potentially could be a safety hazard.And you have to withdraw it from sale, and
then go back around to the factory and tryand figure out what's gone wrong. And sometimes,
you know, factories can do really innocentthings. So like, for example, we had a case,
it was on a nursery product - which is alsoone of my products - where they had changed
a small component part of the product, becausethey had used recycled plastic. So you'd think
(11:49):
“What's wrong with that?” But the percentageof recycled plastic they’d used was too
much, so it made the product weaker. Now,the chances of it doing anybody any real damage
are almost negligible, but as a very responsibleretailer, we will not take any chances. So
that's the sort of thing that goes wrong.But you know, we bring in thousands and thousands
(12:10):
of products every year, and the amount thatgoes wrong is really, really small.
OF (12:15):
Of course, I mean that's why I'm focusing in on those, because they must be the exception
that proves the rule, right?JM: Yeah. And we're pretty good at sharing
our information with other retailers. So like,you know, if we know that there's other high
street retailers that use the same factoryas us - or other brands in the UK - we will
tell them “We found a problem with our product"so that they can be alert as well, particularly
(12:35):
if it's a product that we think could be hazardousto the consumer.
Well, that makes me ask you then, is there a community of people who are sourcing - let's
say in China, it being one of the biggestsourcing hubs in the world - or is there something
of a more cut-throat attitude, where you'recompeting for the best supplies?
JM (12:52):
There's a lot of really big, really good factories here. And we all tend to use the
same factories. So there'll be a lot of crossoverbetween all of us, which is kind of to be
expected. I do know a few people up here,but we don't really have a community. Unless
they do, and I've just not been invited toit. So if anyone's listening…
OF (13:13):
Well then, you said then that there are certain factories you use. So where are, then,
the factories that people usually use? Arethey spread around, in terms of what kind
of product you want?JM: Yes. That’s a really good question actually,
Oscar. So it depends on the product. So ifyou want to buy something very technical - like
(13:34):
a tablet, or a laptop - South China. Otherbig stuff like white goods - so major domestic
appliances, your washing machines, tumbledryers cooking - is all migrating up to the
north of China. There's a lot of factoriesaround 宁波 [Níngbō], 南京 [Nánjīng],
苏州 [Sūzhōu], there's loads of factoriesaround there that make all kinds of different
(13:54):
things. But it's becoming more and more expensive.And China is trying to move some of that manufacturing
further into China, where it's cheaper. Soeverything's on the east at the moment, because
it's really near ports, so it's easy to ship.But they're trying to move it further into
China. And another reason is that China istrying to sort out its pollution. So it's
(14:16):
trying to keep a lot of the production awayfrom big cities. So it doesn't really want
any manufacturing around Beijing, for example.So it's a very sophisticated, clever plan.
And you can see that China's gone from justmaking stuff, to now being quite sophisticated
in which parts of China they want to makewhat. And it's quite vertically integrated.
(14:39):
So they've got most of their raw materialshere, as well as the production, as well as
the supply chain. So if you want to ordera product from China, they can make it and
ship it within about 60 days. Some of themwill do it within 45 days. But you go to Southeast
Asia or the U.S. - the U.S. used to be thebiggest manufacturing hub in the world, it's
now number two - you're looking at 120 daysthere. So no one can truly compete with China
(15:05):
as it stands at the moment. Except for textiles.So like clothing manufacturing tends to be
extremely labour intensive. And labour isbecoming expensive here. So India and Bangladesh
are the best places to go for apparel, andthat’s because China's not that interested
in it.OF: And then you mentioned the push away from
(15:25):
the coast and more inland, like do you seeit happening already?
JM (15:28):
Yes. OF
talking about cities near 成都 [Chéngdū],like whereabouts..?
Yeah, like 重庆 [Chóngqìng], yeah, that sort of direction, yes. Because you’ve
still got to get the product shipped. So it'sstill got to get to a port.
OF (15:42):
This is interesting, because it also ties in then with what they're trying to do with
the Belt and Road Initiative, which is tryingto have more transportation links overland
to the west.JM: That’s right, yes.
Well, we've talked about your job, but we haven't talked much about you. So what
was it that drew you to this line of work?I don't believe that somebody in Northern
(16:02):
Ireland said “Mummy, I want to be a sourcingdirector.”
JM (16:05):
I didn't know it existed. Well when I was 16 - in Derry obviously - I got a job
in Top Shop. I thought it was the best jobever. High fashion for teenagers, I guess
is the way that I would describe it, but anywayas a 16-year-old it was quite a cool place
to work. And I loved the buzz of retail, andI loved the buzz of working in a shop. So
anyway, I ended up doing a business degree.So my first job was a brand manager for electric
(16:31):
blankets - very glamorous - and the factorywas at an old mill. And that was my sort of
first job in sourcing, if you like. From thereI progressed into buying. So it was Makro,
which is a kind of cash-and-carry, very similarconcept to Costco. And then from there, I
ended up going to Argos.OF: Thank you so much, Jo.
(16:53):
Absolutely. OF
OK.
[Part 2]OF: Are you ready, Jo?
Yes, I'm ready. I still haven't drunk any of that red wine. I’m still ready.
OF (17:06):
It’s sitting here in front of us. It's very tempting, especially because it's Friday
afternoon right now.JM: Yes.
Question 1. What is your favourite China-related fact?
JM (17:16):
风水 [Fēngshuǐ]. So we have to make sure that we get that right in the office.
So everything's got to be facing south, forthe best position. And it will keep evil away.
And the other thing is, when we joined togetherArgos and Sainsbury’s, we had a new office.
(17:37):
And whenever we have a new office, you haveto have the Dragon Dance. So the Dragon Dance
will keep the evil spirits away from the office,and make us rich. Which has not worked out
too badly so far. So it's very important.OF: You see, you’re like me, you've lived
in Hong Kong as well, right?JM: Yeah, yeah, we had the same thing with
the Dragon Dance in Hong Kong as well.OF: Yeah because I always found Hong Kong
(17:57):
- in fact in general, southern China - seemsto be more into 风水 [fēngshuǐ] than Shanghai
and northern China, wouldn’t you say? Oryou would say differently?
No, I know a fair few local friends who've moved apartments and they get the 风水 [fēngshuǐ]
guy around to check it out before they movein.
OF (18:15):
There you go. Question 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
JM (18:20):
Well, there's a word - you will know this, you will absolutely know this word - 帅哥
[shuàigē]. So it basically means ‘handsomeman’. So, when I first learnt Chinese and
they told me that, I thought “Ooh, handsomeman”. And 美女 [měinǚ] means, like,
‘pretty lady’. But then I realised, it'sused to say like “Hello, mate”. So like,
(18:40):
if you want to call a waiter in the restaurantor anything, you’d go “帅哥 [shuàigē].”
OF (18:44):
Yeah. JM
And it's friendly. And it's fun. And whenI say it everyone laughs. Maybe it’s just
because I’m saying it wrong.OF: I think it’s ‘帅哥 [shuàigē].’
JM (18:53):
帅哥 [Shuàigē], yeah. OF
you're saying “Oi handsome! Come here!”“Oi pretty lady!” Ah, simple yet effective.
What is your favourite destination withinChina?
Well, see there's so many. However, one of the advantages of the job as well, is that
we do go to all parts of China.OF: Exactly.
(19:14):
So I used to look after garden furniture. And there is a garden furniture factory that's
in an area called 临海 [Línhǎi]. Haveyou ever been there?
OF (19:23):
Never heard of it. JM
countryside, and in the middle of it is afurniture factory.
Oh god. JM
to go to, because it's in such a beautifullocation.
That is nice. And are there any places that you have to go to as a sourcer, where
you're like “Oh god, do I have to go backthere?”
JM (19:39):
Do you know, I quite enjoy going to all those places, because they’ve all got different
Chinese character. I mean, in Shanghai everythingis so shiny and beautiful and fabulous. But
some of the places we go, it's much more gritty.And I actually really like that, because it
does remind you where you are.OF: Yeah.
Keep it real, Oscar. OF
(20:00):
China, what would you miss the most? Whatwould you miss the least?
Well, I know this is gonna be a really obvious answer, but I would absolutely miss
the people the most. So I mean, in the office,it's like, I am the office foreigner. And
I would miss the colleagues in the officebecause, you know - they tell me all the time
- I'm their Chinese family. You know, we'vebeen on a journey. And then there's other
(20:22):
ladies, like down in the noodle bar that Igo to, that don't speak any English - and
my Chinese is very limited - and somehow wecan communicate, and they're very, very sweet
to me. And there's so many people from allwalks of life around Shanghai, that I see
in my daily life that are incredibly kindto me. That's what I would miss the most if
(20:42):
I left China. Because this is my second timein China. And when I left the first time,
that is what I missed. But the thing thatI would miss the least is the sniffing.
[Sniffing sounds]Like that, right?
OF (20:53):
Mmm hmm. JM
I can't bear it. I have to put on headphonesor get up and walk away. I don't know how
it doesn't drive them crazy. Because I findit totally unbearable.
Yes, they would say the same about us, when they hear us going to the bathroom, blowing
our noses, and coming back. They’re like“Eurgh, you blow your nose”. Because this
(21:15):
is the whole thing about wearing masks. It'sall about keeping your exhalations to yourself.
And so when you're sniffing, in a sense, you'resniffing in your own runny nose, because it's
rude to blow them out.JM: I prefer the nose-blowing scenario.
I totally prefer it. Totally. Next question, is there anything that still surprises you
about life in China?JM: Oh, it’s got to be the rate of change,
(21:37):
particularly construction. Like, so for example,out of our office window, there was a building
that was just like a massive hole in the ground.And now there’s, like a 30-storey building.
And it's the same across the way from my apartment.It's like one day, almost like there was an
unveiling, it’s like “Oh my god, there'sa whole full apartment building”. And it
just happened so fast. Only China can do that.Or you can go somewhere every day - to a restaurant
(22:01):
or somewhere - and then you’ll turn up thenext day, and it's gone. And somehow it still
surprises me every single time.OF: What was the gap between when you lived
here the first time, and then you came back?How many years were you away?
JM (22:12):
About three years. OF
Yeah. But also as well, no one really spoke English the first time. I came back
this time, a lot of people around and aboutspeak English. And a lot of people are more
willing to help you this time. I find thatquite a lot of people want to talk to me a
bit more than they did the last time. AndI think it's because, certainly in Shanghai,
people have got much more used to foreigners.They want to talk to you, in a way that maybe
(22:36):
they wanted to before but felt more reluctantto do so.
OF (22:39):
Yeah. Where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?
JM (22:43):
See it's actually not too far from here, Oscar. And I think you'll understand when
I say like 武康 [Wǔkāng] Road, 富民[Fùmín] Road. Even though we're living in
the middle of a big city, they all kind offeel quite European, feels quite relaxed,
it's got a chilled atmosphere, and it's justa really nice place to hang out.
OF (23:02):
What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China? And this is a good question
for you.JM: Well, I made a very fast purchase earlier
this year. So it was Chinese New Year. Andwe have our annual dinner every year, which
is the highlight of the calendar in our office.I'm not part of the entertainment, I have
to judge it, and I kind of MC the evening.So I thought "I'm going to dress up this year
(23:26):
in something Chinese, something nice”. ButI was in a real hurry. So I got a taxi down
to the fabric market. And I went into oneof the shops and I said “Can I have a dress
that’ll fit me? I haven't got time for youto make it, or come back next week. I need
a dress.”OF: Immediately.
JM (23:40):
Yeah, basically immediately. The lady said “What about this one?” And it was
this red dress. So I went in, tried it on,it fitted like a glove. And I went “That’ll
do.” And I was out of there. And the wholething took about 15 minutes. And anyway I
wore said dress to the annual dinner. Andthe reaction I got from the office - because
(24:00):
I made the effort to wear this dress - wasactually quite touching. Even though it only
took me about 10 minutes to buy it. So itwas the best thing I ever bought. And it wasn't
even expensive. And the quality is excellent.Which is another great thing about China.
OF (24:16):
Fifteen minutes well spent there, Jo. JM
What is your favourite WeChat sticker? OK, what are we looking at here?
JM (24:23):
Oh my goodness, how do we describe this? They're like The Golden Girls. And they're
kind of like shimming their chests. Is thatthe best way to say it, Oscar?
OF (24:33):
Yes. JM
I have a lot of fun in Shanghai, and I'vegot a lot of girlfriends that make me smile,
and all the great people that I've met whileI'm here.
Beautiful. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
JM (24:48):
I have not got one, Oscar. Because, if you heard my singing voice… No honestly,
I've said to my friends “Have I got theworst singing voice you’ve ever heard?”
And they all go “Yes”.OF: I've had bad luck this season. Because
I've asked this question, of course, to everyone.And the number of people who have said that,
this season…JM: No but Oscar, you don’t understand,
they've all got better voices than me. I likesinging stupid things like Robbie Williams’
(25:13):
‘Angels’, or ‘I Will Survive’ is alwaysa popular one.
OF (25:16):
Yeah. And who cares if it's good or bad? And finally, what other China-related media
or sources of information do you rely on?JM: Well, we ask our factories. Because they're
really well informed. So even things… ifwe said to them “Where do you think the
exchange rate’s gonna be in six months?”you honestly get a good answer.
Yeah. JM
(25:37):
asked our Treasury. Because they are actually…Their fingers are on the pulse out here. And
we have a lot of factories that are connectedto the government. So we do tend to get very
good information from our network.OF: Yes. Thank you so much Jo.
JM (25:50):
Thank you Oscar, I’ve really enjoyed it.
OF (25:52):
And finally the last question is, out of everyone you know in China, who should
I interview for the next season of Mosaicof China?
JM (25:59):
Well, I spent a lot of time in various fitness establishments around Shanghai, but
there's one that I really love the most. AndOscar, I think I've seen you in there too.
It's called Z&B, and it's very inclusive becauseit is for locals and for foreigners as well.
And it was set up by a Danish lady calledSiri, who's been here for quite a while, and
(26:21):
I remember her from the first time I was here.She is a very impressive lady, and I think
you'll enjoy talking to her a lot.OF: Absolutely. Thank you so much. I look
forward to meeting Siri. She sounds amazing.JM: She is.
OF (26:32):
Thank you Jo. See you soon. JM
[Outro]OF: If you want to hear more from Jo, there's
an extra 15 minutes in today's PREMIUM versionof the show, which you can subscribe to on
Patreon or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China.Head to https://mosaicofchina.com for instruction
(26:52):
on how to subscribe, and you'll get the sameextra content for every episode of the Season.
Here are some clips from today’s…
[Clip 1]JM: I can remember going to a factory, driving
along the road, and then the road just stopped.There was no road.
[Clip 2]JM: Back in the day, we've had containers
fall off ships.OF: They fell off the ship?
JM (27:10):
It’s happened before. [Clip 3]
And someone said to me “That's not their washing line, that’s their wardrobe. Because
there’s probably ten people living in thatroom”.
OF (27:18):
Oh right. [Clip 4]
JM (27:19):
Now, are there still sweatshops in China? Absolutely. But certainly, we don't use factories
like that.[Clip 5]
I said to one of the factories “You know, as a responsible factory, do you not
want to try and drive the use of these fantasticnew sustainable materials you've got?” And
he basically said “No.[Clip 6]
Oh we once had some bicycles that we brought in, and the wheels didn’t go round. That's
not ideal.[End of Audio Clips]
(27:40):
If listening to today's show has made youcurious about the place Jo comes from, then
please drop everything and make a point ofwatching the TV show we mentioned right at
the beginning of the episode, 'Derry Girls'.For a start, it's hilarious. But apart from
that, it does help to explain the cultureof Northern Island, which is a part of the
world that not many people in Asia know muchabout, apart from the fact that they filmed
(28:03):
parts of 'Game of Thrones' there.
And coming back to today's conversation, andI think I have one correction about what we
said about this part of the world. We bothsaid that they do dragon dances when they
open a new shop, or office, or factory, whichI said I saw a lot of in Hong Kong. But I
didn't, because those weren't dragons, they'relions. And unlike Jo, I have personally never
(28:27):
seen these lion dances in mainland China,I've only ever seen them when I lived in Hong
Kong, where they used to end the dance bylaying out pieces of fruit in the shape of
auspicious Chinese characters. But yeah, itshould be quite clear to you by now that I
don't know enough about this, so I will shutup before I embarrass myself any more.
To school me on this, please reach out onsocial media, you can add me on WeChat using
the ID (28:51):
mosaicofchina, where I'll add you to the listeners group; or you'll be able
to find the accounts under the same name onInstagram and Facebook. You'll also find photos
there of Jo and her object, the bottle ofwine; her favourite WeChat sticker, which
was from another TV show, not 'Derry Girls',but 'The Golden Girls'; her best purchase,
(29:11):
that red dress she bought off the rack atthe fabric market; and loads of other stuff
too.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. There follows a catch-up
chat with Jorge Luzio, the marketing executivefrom Coca-Cola from Season 01 Episode 05,
so stick around for that. And we'll be backagain next week.
(29:33):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello, Jorge.
JL (29:41):
Hello, how are you? OF
Good to be back. OF
of time together.JL: Unfortunately.
OF (29:54):
In fact, what I've been asking everyone is, where were they when Coronavirus hit.
But I don't have to ask you that, becauseyou and I were both on a skiing trip in Hokkaido,
right?JL: Correct. So we were stuck in Hokkaido,
as you know. And then we decided to stay alittle bit longer, as we received the news
that there was an outbreak in China. So westayed one more week in Tokyo, because I was
(30:20):
planning to go to South Africa. At that time,I was appointed to be the Head of the Sparkling
business in the South African business unit.So we went there. And then the Coronavirus
actually exploded even more in China. So thatforced us to stay even longer, for about three
(30:41):
weeks in South Africa. It was good in thesense that I started to interact with the
team that I was going to work with. But itwas very interesting. As soon as we were able
to go back to China, we decided “OK, let'sgo back”. Because we needed to do all the
paperwork, we needed to start preparing ourselvesto pack our stuff, and prepare ourselves to
(31:02):
go to Africa, right? So we came here, andthen the outbreak started in Africa. So we
couldn't go back. And it was quite quite,painful after that time, to be honest. Because
it took us, like, three months, doing thenew job for Africa, based from here. It was
quite complicated, especially during thisspecific time of COVID, there was a lot of,
(31:26):
you know, uncertainty, anxiousness, back andforth planning… Yep.
So how did it end up, then? JL
2021. That was the best expectation of usto relocate there. So I decided that it was
(31:47):
not sustainable. So I started to talk withmy community, my bosses, other people’s
bosses. And we took the decision of sayingthat I was not going to Africa anymore, because
I was not planning for success. And so now,I've been appointed as a global marketing
(32:08):
director for the innovation of a new segmentthat we are exploring in Coca-Cola, which
is the ‘Emerging Categories’, as we callit. But it’s basically alcohol. I don't
know if you heard in the news?OF: Well, I heard from you.
JL (32:22):
OK. OF
for Coca-Cola. Have you ever done alcoholbefore, as a company?
Sure, we had some attempts in Brazil, and especially in Japan, where we launched,
two years ago, a brand named ‘檸檬堂[Lemon-Do]’, and it's been quite a successful
brand. So the idea is to expand our portfoliotowards that direction, in what we call ‘Flavour
(32:47):
Alcoholic Beverages’. So it's really excitingfor the company. And it’s very seamless,
and very agile, and very highspeed outcomesthat we are doing right now. So it's completely
different for me., and for us as an organisation,especially in the midst of this crisis. I
think it's been quite interesting.OF: And I can see why this makes more sense
(33:09):
than doing a very geography-specific rolefrom a remote location. This role, you can
do from anywhere in the world. Whereas ofcourse, the role you had in Africa was very
much compromised by the fact that you didn'tknow the team, and you were stuck in China,
right?JL: Yes.
OF (33:25):
Did you have any visibility, then, in terms of what Coca-Cola - and your brand,
Sprite - were doing during COVID? Like, werepeople stuck at home and they were ordering
more Sprite? Were the factories still producingthe Sprite?
JL (33:38):
Yes, actually, in China, we had fantastic business continuity. So we prioritised the
big brands, and actually the brands helpedthe consumers to feel like they're secure,
that they have sufficient supply of theirpreferred beverages. We saw that there were
some shifts, in terms of like, there was abig trend during COVID about not drinking
(34:02):
too many sugary beverages. So we saw an importantrise in the non-sugar portfolio, which was
very interesting, also in the way that wecould accommodate the portfolio strategies
behind it.OF: Well, thank you so much, Jorge.
Thank you very much. OF
for the next season. unfortunately they hadto pull out, so there will not be a connection
(34:23):
with the next season. But I found a good replacement.JL: Great.
OF (34:26):
So I hope that you will enjoy that episode as well, and continue being a member of the
Mosaic in the future.JL: Yes, of course, I’m super proud to still
be here.OF: Thanks, Jorge.
JL (34:36):
Thank you.
[Trailer]OF: What had you planned that you would sell,
but in the end because of COVID did not sell?JM: Luggage.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I like today's episode because it's a subjectmatter that in the wrong hands could be a
(00:26):
little bit mundane. We're talking about thesubject of sourcing goods from factories.
But as with many other subjects, you can transplantit into the context of China - and get someone
with a lovely attitude, like my guest today,Jo McFarland - and that subject totally comes
to life.
As with every episode, if you're not a nativeEnglish speaker and you're finding it hard
(00:47):
to follow the conversation, you can head tohttps://mosaicofchina.com to read the full
transcript of the show, or head to YouTubewhere you can follow the subtitles in real
time.
[Part 1]OF: Welcome Jo, nice to meet you.
JM (01:02):
Thank you very much, Oscar. Thank you very much for having me here today.
OF (01:05):
I don't know why I said "meet you” because I know you very well. We actually first met
in Hong Kong when we were sitting in the hairdresserof Elaine Swanson.
JM (01:13):
I was going to say. You were having a rinse.
OF (01:16):
I was having a rinse; you were sitting there sipping something sparkling.
JM (01:20):
Water? OF
been back to Hong Kong, we haven't seen Elaine,so a big shout out to Elaine for bringing
us together in the first place.JM: Absolutely.
OF (01:31):
And I love your accent. People would already have noticed that you have a specific accent.
So what is that?JM: Well actually, for those of you who watch
British TV, and have seen ‘Derry Girls’,I'm actually a Derry girl. I left Northern
Ireland an extremely long time ago, but Iclearly haven't managed to shake off my Derry
(01:53):
accent, despite the fact that I've lived allover England, Scotland for a really long time,
and I've lived in Asia for about seven years.So you can take the girl out of Derry, but…
Certainly, you cannot take that accent out. But neither would I want you to, that
would be a shame. And this is a funny thing,because Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
(02:15):
But you can't really call yourself ‘British’because ‘Great Britain’ is the island
that is across the water from Northern Ireland.So what do you call yourself? Do you call
yourself ‘Irish’?JM: Oh, see, you're opening a whole can of
worms here, if we go into Irish politics.To be honest with you, I have a British passport,
but I also have an Irish passport. So I guessin today's terminology, I would say I identify
(02:39):
as both.OF: Well, before we get any further, what
I would ask you immediately is, what is theobject that you have brought that in some
way describes your life in China? Is it inthe other room? Oh, what is that?
JM (02:55):
Oscar, I'm surprised that you can't recognise this immediately. It is clearly a bottle of
red wine. Now the thing that's really interestingabout this bottle of wine, is that it is Chinese
red wine. And it's made in a vineyard here.And the President of this particular wine
company is actually a woman. And the reasonwhy this represents China to me, is that it
(03:21):
says to me how exciting a place that Chinais. Because here, they can truly make anything
happen. So, you know, when you think of redwine, you think of France and Italy, maybe
some new world red wine, but China doesn'tautomatically spring to mind, right? Whereas
this is actually fantastic wine. And alsothe way that women have very senior roles
(03:46):
in China. Now, I first came out here probably20-ish years ago. And it was, of course, very
male dominated. But not any more. And thatis another example of the way China can adapt
and change, and why it makes it such an excitingplace to be.
OF (04:02):
Nice. And I hope that you also enjoy drinking that one too.
JM (04:07):
Absolutely. OF
you said in that intro is, that you have hadan association with China now for about 20
years. So what is that background?JM: So I work for a really large retailer
in the UK, very famous (04:23):
Sainsbury's/Argos. So Sainsbury’s, of course, one the big four
supermarkets; and Argos, you know has thecatalogue of dreams. And I've worked with
the business… I've had my anniversary thisweek, actually. Combined Argos and Sainsbury’s,
20 years this year. So my role has alwaysbeen about bringing great product directly
(04:47):
from factories into the UK, and 80% of theUK shop at Argos. So it's a British institution.
And the reason why Argos became so famousback in the day, is that it made luxury product
- or perceived luxury product - accessibleto everyone. And Argos went direct to factory
(05:10):
and sourced them in a way that made them affordablefor everyone.
OF (05:14):
How would you describe the way that you interface with the customer?
JM (05:17):
Yeah, it's an extremely unique model that doesn't translate anywhere else in the world.
So basically, it had a catalogue where youcould choose which product you wanted at home.
And then you'd go into the store, write downthe catalogue number of the product you wanted,
and then a nice chap would go to the warehouseat the back and bring out your product. So
(05:39):
all the selection was done from a catalogue,as opposed to off the shelf.
OF (05:43):
Let me then ask you about Sainsbury’s, because this came later on in the picture,
right? Explain what happened with Sainsbury's?JM: Yeah, so Sainsbury's bought Argos four
years ago. So we’re Sainsbury’s/Argosnow. It was quite a big thing to happen in
the UK, because it was two retail giants thatbasically came together. So it's a bit of
(06:04):
a one-stop shop for consumers that makes usunique in the UK market.
Well there you go, that is your intro. To anyone who did not know retail in the UK,
you need know nothing more (06:14):
Sainsbury's is the supermarket, and Argos is more general
goods, everything.JM: Yeah, we call it ‘general merchandise’
because it's basically everything.OF: Maybe people are scratching their heads
now about why we’re talking about retailin the UK. But perhaps they have worked out
what your role is here in China. So what isit that you do?
JM (06:34):
So here, I run the Shanghai Sainsbury’s/Argos sourcing office. So we have nearly 100 colleagues
up here, all local, and they work with factoriesright across China, where we develop our own
brand product, and then we facilitate bringingit from the factory into the UK. So we're
(06:55):
responsible for finding fabulous factories.And we have about 500 factories that we use
here, because we cover such a vast range ofproduct. And then we have to facilitate the
supply chain to get it from the factory intothe UK on time, every time. Sounds simple,
but yeah, there's quite a lot of challengein there.
OF (07:17):
Well, this is why I was excited to have you interviewed, because this is what China
has been known for, over the last 20 years.The fact that it has been a manufacturing
hub and the integral part of the supply chainof so many retailers around the world. What
actually do you source within the group?JM: All sorts. See, I've got three different
areas and it's very wide. So, ‘Electrical’: washing machines, tumble dryers, through to (07:37):
undefined
the charger for your mobile. But also tablets,mobile phones, radios, all that kind of stuff.
Then I've got another team who do ‘GardenPower’: very glamorous, so that's your lawnmowers,
strimmers; Leisure, so like trampolines, outdoortoys, camping, and sports. And then I also
(08:04):
have another team which does product morefor the Sainsbury's channel, things like Events:
so like Christmas, Hallowe’en, Valentine'sDay, so you know, like cards, wrap, gifts,
all of that type of product. So I have a verywide remit, and very different factories within
that.OF: Yeah, there's so many different things.
(08:27):
Can you actually get economies of scale?JM: Well, as I said at the start, 80% of the
UK population shop at Argos, and Sainsbury'shas 26 million shoppers a week. So we have
huge volume. So we ship a vast number of containersfrom an individual factory. So we are a major
(08:49):
exporter out of China.OF: So if I want to buy a trampoline, I'll
go through you.JM: Yes. But there aren't very many factories
in China that do trampolines.OF: I mean, trampolines, it's not that common,
come on.JM: We sell thousands and thousands.
OF (09:02):
Really. JM
year. We could not ship enough trampolines.OF: Well, this is a good question. Because
when you suddenly change your shopping habitsbecause you're stuck at home, that has a direct
impact on people like you, right?JM: Well, because we have our nice shiny forecasts
that we do every year, and COVID just threwthat out the window. So we started off, and
(09:25):
the factories were closed because of course,China kind of shut itself down to try and
cope with the virus. So then we were kindof screaming at factories to say “How are
we going to get our product out?” And thenvery quickly, the virus hit the UK and then
we had to close stand-alone stores. So thenwe thought “Oh! We’re not going to sell
anything!” So then we were basically tryingto turn it off in factories. But actually
what happened was, people were stuck at homein lockdown, and they went crazy buying everything.
(09:50):
For certain products, we had monumental demand.So like sports, for example. So things like
small weights, yoga mats, treadmills, youknow our demand for that is up 100% year-on-year.
Totally, I can just imagine that. And what about the flip side? Like, what had you
planned that you would sell, but in the endbecause of COVID did not sell?
JM (10:12):
Luggage. And portable DVD. Because portable DVD is for the kids to watch on long car journeys.
So I’m afraid it was a little bit of a disaster.OF: Oh, I love that. I should have known,
but yeah, that is brilliant. And so let'sgo back then to normal times. So when things
(10:35):
are running smoothly, it is an amazingly well-oiledmachine. To just think about how somebody
in the UK going into a store, they can pickup this item, and they wouldn't have a clue
that it has somehow gone through the supplychain, and it's ended up in their very hands,
right? That's the thing that still amazesme, which is just an everyday thing, of course,
about modern trade. But what happens whenit goes wrong, like what things can go wrong?
(10:59):
Oh, it can be all sorts of things. So even though we've got very strict inspection
processes - in the factory; before it’sshipped; when it arrives in the UK - sometimes
we do get technical problems with product.And that's kind of the worst thing that happens.
So a customer buys a product, takes it home,and it doesn't work. Or they find something
(11:22):
that potentially could be a safety hazard.And you have to withdraw it from sale, and
then go back around to the factory and tryand figure out what's gone wrong. And sometimes,
you know, factories can do really innocentthings. So like, for example, we had a case,
it was on a nursery product - which is alsoone of my products - where they had changed
a small component part of the product, becausethey had used recycled plastic. So you'd think
(11:49):
“What's wrong with that?” But the percentageof recycled plastic they’d used was too
much, so it made the product weaker. Now,the chances of it doing anybody any real damage
are almost negligible, but as a very responsibleretailer, we will not take any chances. So
that's the sort of thing that goes wrong.But you know, we bring in thousands and thousands
(12:10):
of products every year, and the amount thatgoes wrong is really, really small.
OF (12:15):
Of course, I mean that's why I'm focusing in on those, because they must be the exception
that proves the rule, right?JM: Yeah. And we're pretty good at sharing
our information with other retailers. So like,you know, if we know that there's other high
street retailers that use the same factoryas us - or other brands in the UK - we will
tell them “We found a problem with our product"so that they can be alert as well, particularly
(12:35):
if it's a product that we think could be hazardousto the consumer.
Well, that makes me ask you then, is there a community of people who are sourcing - let's
say in China, it being one of the biggestsourcing hubs in the world - or is there something
of a more cut-throat attitude, where you'recompeting for the best supplies?
JM (12:52):
There's a lot of really big, really good factories here. And we all tend to use the
same factories. So there'll be a lot of crossoverbetween all of us, which is kind of to be
expected. I do know a few people up here,but we don't really have a community. Unless
they do, and I've just not been invited toit. So if anyone's listening…
OF (13:13):
Well then, you said then that there are certain factories you use. So where are, then,
the factories that people usually use? Arethey spread around, in terms of what kind
of product you want?JM: Yes. That’s a really good question actually,
Oscar. So it depends on the product. So ifyou want to buy something very technical - like
(13:34):
a tablet, or a laptop - South China. Otherbig stuff like white goods - so major domestic
appliances, your washing machines, tumbledryers cooking - is all migrating up to the
north of China. There's a lot of factoriesaround 宁波 [Níngbō], 南京 [Nánjīng],
苏州 [Sūzhōu], there's loads of factoriesaround there that make all kinds of different
(13:54):
things. But it's becoming more and more expensive.And China is trying to move some of that manufacturing
further into China, where it's cheaper. Soeverything's on the east at the moment, because
it's really near ports, so it's easy to ship.But they're trying to move it further into
China. And another reason is that China istrying to sort out its pollution. So it's
(14:16):
trying to keep a lot of the production awayfrom big cities. So it doesn't really want
any manufacturing around Beijing, for example.So it's a very sophisticated, clever plan.
And you can see that China's gone from justmaking stuff, to now being quite sophisticated
in which parts of China they want to makewhat. And it's quite vertically integrated.
(14:39):
So they've got most of their raw materialshere, as well as the production, as well as
the supply chain. So if you want to ordera product from China, they can make it and
ship it within about 60 days. Some of themwill do it within 45 days. But you go to Southeast
Asia or the U.S. - the U.S. used to be thebiggest manufacturing hub in the world, it's
now number two - you're looking at 120 daysthere. So no one can truly compete with China
(15:05):
as it stands at the moment. Except for textiles.So like clothing manufacturing tends to be
extremely labour intensive. And labour isbecoming expensive here. So India and Bangladesh
are the best places to go for apparel, andthat’s because China's not that interested
in it.OF: And then you mentioned the push away from
(15:25):
the coast and more inland, like do you seeit happening already?
JM (15:28):
Yes. OF
talking about cities near 成都 [Chéngdū],like whereabouts..?
Yeah, like 重庆 [Chóngqìng], yeah, that sort of direction, yes. Because you’ve
still got to get the product shipped. So it'sstill got to get to a port.
OF (15:42):
This is interesting, because it also ties in then with what they're trying to do with
the Belt and Road Initiative, which is tryingto have more transportation links overland
to the west.JM: That’s right, yes.
Well, we've talked about your job, but we haven't talked much about you. So what
was it that drew you to this line of work?I don't believe that somebody in Northern
(16:02):
Ireland said “Mummy, I want to be a sourcingdirector.”
JM (16:05):
I didn't know it existed. Well when I was 16 - in Derry obviously - I got a job
in Top Shop. I thought it was the best jobever. High fashion for teenagers, I guess
is the way that I would describe it, but anywayas a 16-year-old it was quite a cool place
to work. And I loved the buzz of retail, andI loved the buzz of working in a shop. So
anyway, I ended up doing a business degree.So my first job was a brand manager for electric
(16:31):
blankets - very glamorous - and the factorywas at an old mill. And that was my sort of
first job in sourcing, if you like. From thereI progressed into buying. So it was Makro,
which is a kind of cash-and-carry, very similarconcept to Costco. And then from there, I
ended up going to Argos.OF: Thank you so much, Jo.
(16:53):
Absolutely. OF
OK.
[Part 2]OF: Are you ready, Jo?
Yes, I'm ready. I still haven't drunk any of that red wine. I’m still ready.
OF (17:06):
It’s sitting here in front of us. It's very tempting, especially because it's Friday
afternoon right now.JM: Yes.
Question 1. What is your favourite China-related fact?
JM (17:16):
风水 [Fēngshuǐ]. So we have to make sure that we get that right in the office.
So everything's got to be facing south, forthe best position. And it will keep evil away.
And the other thing is, when we joined togetherArgos and Sainsbury’s, we had a new office.
(17:37):
And whenever we have a new office, you haveto have the Dragon Dance. So the Dragon Dance
will keep the evil spirits away from the office,and make us rich. Which has not worked out
too badly so far. So it's very important.OF: You see, you’re like me, you've lived
in Hong Kong as well, right?JM: Yeah, yeah, we had the same thing with
the Dragon Dance in Hong Kong as well.OF: Yeah because I always found Hong Kong
(17:57):
- in fact in general, southern China - seemsto be more into 风水 [fēngshuǐ] than Shanghai
and northern China, wouldn’t you say? Oryou would say differently?
No, I know a fair few local friends who've moved apartments and they get the 风水 [fēngshuǐ]
guy around to check it out before they movein.
OF (18:15):
There you go. Question 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
JM (18:20):
Well, there's a word - you will know this, you will absolutely know this word - 帅哥
[shuàigē]. So it basically means ‘handsomeman’. So, when I first learnt Chinese and
they told me that, I thought “Ooh, handsomeman”. And 美女 [měinǚ] means, like,
‘pretty lady’. But then I realised, it'sused to say like “Hello, mate”. So like,
(18:40):
if you want to call a waiter in the restaurantor anything, you’d go “帅哥 [shuàigē].”
OF (18:44):
Yeah. JM
And it's friendly. And it's fun. And whenI say it everyone laughs. Maybe it’s just
because I’m saying it wrong.OF: I think it’s ‘帅哥 [shuàigē].’
JM (18:53):
帅哥 [Shuàigē], yeah. OF
you're saying “Oi handsome! Come here!”“Oi pretty lady!” Ah, simple yet effective.
What is your favourite destination withinChina?
Well, see there's so many. However, one of the advantages of the job as well, is that
we do go to all parts of China.OF: Exactly.
(19:14):
So I used to look after garden furniture. And there is a garden furniture factory that's
in an area called 临海 [Línhǎi]. Haveyou ever been there?
OF (19:23):
Never heard of it. JM
countryside, and in the middle of it is afurniture factory.
Oh god. JM
to go to, because it's in such a beautifullocation.
That is nice. And are there any places that you have to go to as a sourcer, where
you're like “Oh god, do I have to go backthere?”
JM (19:39):
Do you know, I quite enjoy going to all those places, because they’ve all got different
Chinese character. I mean, in Shanghai everythingis so shiny and beautiful and fabulous. But
some of the places we go, it's much more gritty.And I actually really like that, because it
does remind you where you are.OF: Yeah.
Keep it real, Oscar. OF
(20:00):
China, what would you miss the most? Whatwould you miss the least?
Well, I know this is gonna be a really obvious answer, but I would absolutely miss
the people the most. So I mean, in the office,it's like, I am the office foreigner. And
I would miss the colleagues in the officebecause, you know - they tell me all the time
- I'm their Chinese family. You know, we'vebeen on a journey. And then there's other
(20:22):
ladies, like down in the noodle bar that Igo to, that don't speak any English - and
my Chinese is very limited - and somehow wecan communicate, and they're very, very sweet
to me. And there's so many people from allwalks of life around Shanghai, that I see
in my daily life that are incredibly kindto me. That's what I would miss the most if
(20:42):
I left China. Because this is my second timein China. And when I left the first time,
that is what I missed. But the thing thatI would miss the least is the sniffing.
[Sniffing sounds]Like that, right?
OF (20:53):
Mmm hmm. JM
I can't bear it. I have to put on headphonesor get up and walk away. I don't know how
it doesn't drive them crazy. Because I findit totally unbearable.
Yes, they would say the same about us, when they hear us going to the bathroom, blowing
our noses, and coming back. They’re like“Eurgh, you blow your nose”. Because this
(21:15):
is the whole thing about wearing masks. It'sall about keeping your exhalations to yourself.
And so when you're sniffing, in a sense, you'resniffing in your own runny nose, because it's
rude to blow them out.JM: I prefer the nose-blowing scenario.
I totally prefer it. Totally. Next question, is there anything that still surprises you
about life in China?JM: Oh, it’s got to be the rate of change,
(21:37):
particularly construction. Like, so for example,out of our office window, there was a building
that was just like a massive hole in the ground.And now there’s, like a 30-storey building.
And it's the same across the way from my apartment.It's like one day, almost like there was an
unveiling, it’s like “Oh my god, there'sa whole full apartment building”. And it
just happened so fast. Only China can do that.Or you can go somewhere every day - to a restaurant
(22:01):
or somewhere - and then you’ll turn up thenext day, and it's gone. And somehow it still
surprises me every single time.OF: What was the gap between when you lived
here the first time, and then you came back?How many years were you away?
JM (22:12):
About three years. OF
Yeah. But also as well, no one really spoke English the first time. I came back
this time, a lot of people around and aboutspeak English. And a lot of people are more
willing to help you this time. I find thatquite a lot of people want to talk to me a
bit more than they did the last time. AndI think it's because, certainly in Shanghai,
people have got much more used to foreigners.They want to talk to you, in a way that maybe
(22:36):
they wanted to before but felt more reluctantto do so.
OF (22:39):
Yeah. Where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?
JM (22:43):
See it's actually not too far from here, Oscar. And I think you'll understand when
I say like 武康 [Wǔkāng] Road, 富民[Fùmín] Road. Even though we're living in
the middle of a big city, they all kind offeel quite European, feels quite relaxed,
it's got a chilled atmosphere, and it's justa really nice place to hang out.
OF (23:02):
What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China? And this is a good question
for you.JM: Well, I made a very fast purchase earlier
this year. So it was Chinese New Year. Andwe have our annual dinner every year, which
is the highlight of the calendar in our office.I'm not part of the entertainment, I have
to judge it, and I kind of MC the evening.So I thought "I'm going to dress up this year
(23:26):
in something Chinese, something nice”. ButI was in a real hurry. So I got a taxi down
to the fabric market. And I went into oneof the shops and I said “Can I have a dress
that’ll fit me? I haven't got time for youto make it, or come back next week. I need
a dress.”OF: Immediately.
JM (23:40):
Yeah, basically immediately. The lady said “What about this one?” And it was
this red dress. So I went in, tried it on,it fitted like a glove. And I went “That’ll
do.” And I was out of there. And the wholething took about 15 minutes. And anyway I
wore said dress to the annual dinner. Andthe reaction I got from the office - because
(24:00):
I made the effort to wear this dress - wasactually quite touching. Even though it only
took me about 10 minutes to buy it. So itwas the best thing I ever bought. And it wasn't
even expensive. And the quality is excellent.Which is another great thing about China.
OF (24:16):
Fifteen minutes well spent there, Jo. JM
What is your favourite WeChat sticker? OK, what are we looking at here?
JM (24:23):
Oh my goodness, how do we describe this? They're like The Golden Girls. And they're
kind of like shimming their chests. Is thatthe best way to say it, Oscar?
OF (24:33):
Yes. JM
I have a lot of fun in Shanghai, and I'vegot a lot of girlfriends that make me smile,
and all the great people that I've met whileI'm here.
Beautiful. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
JM (24:48):
I have not got one, Oscar. Because, if you heard my singing voice… No honestly,
I've said to my friends “Have I got theworst singing voice you’ve ever heard?”
And they all go “Yes”.OF: I've had bad luck this season. Because
I've asked this question, of course, to everyone.And the number of people who have said that,
this season…JM: No but Oscar, you don’t understand,
they've all got better voices than me. I likesinging stupid things like Robbie Williams’
(25:13):
‘Angels’, or ‘I Will Survive’ is alwaysa popular one.
OF (25:16):
Yeah. And who cares if it's good or bad? And finally, what other China-related media
or sources of information do you rely on?JM: Well, we ask our factories. Because they're
really well informed. So even things… ifwe said to them “Where do you think the
exchange rate’s gonna be in six months?”you honestly get a good answer.
Yeah. JM
(25:37):
asked our Treasury. Because they are actually…Their fingers are on the pulse out here. And
we have a lot of factories that are connectedto the government. So we do tend to get very
good information from our network.OF: Yes. Thank you so much Jo.
JM (25:50):
Thank you Oscar, I’ve really enjoyed it.
OF (25:52):
And finally the last question is, out of everyone you know in China, who should
I interview for the next season of Mosaicof China?
JM (25:59):
Well, I spent a lot of time in various fitness establishments around Shanghai, but
there's one that I really love the most. AndOscar, I think I've seen you in there too.
It's called Z&B, and it's very inclusive becauseit is for locals and for foreigners as well.
And it was set up by a Danish lady calledSiri, who's been here for quite a while, and
(26:21):
I remember her from the first time I was here.She is a very impressive lady, and I think
you'll enjoy talking to her a lot.OF: Absolutely. Thank you so much. I look
forward to meeting Siri. She sounds amazing.JM: She is.
OF (26:32):
Thank you Jo. See you soon. JM
[Outro]OF: If you want to hear more from Jo, there's
an extra 15 minutes in today's PREMIUM versionof the show, which you can subscribe to on
Patreon or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China.Head to https://mosaicofchina.com for instruction
(26:52):
on how to subscribe, and you'll get the sameextra content for every episode of the Season.
Here are some clips from today’s…
[Clip 1]JM: I can remember going to a factory, driving
along the road, and then the road just stopped.There was no road.
[Clip 2]JM: Back in the day, we've had containers
fall off ships.OF: They fell off the ship?
JM (27:10):
It’s happened before. [Clip 3]
And someone said to me “That's not their washing line, that’s their wardrobe. Because
there’s probably ten people living in thatroom”.
OF (27:18):
Oh right. [Clip 4]
JM (27:19):
Now, are there still sweatshops in China? Absolutely. But certainly, we don't use factories
like that.[Clip 5]
I said to one of the factories “You know, as a responsible factory, do you not
want to try and drive the use of these fantasticnew sustainable materials you've got?” And
he basically said “No.[Clip 6]
Oh we once had some bicycles that we brought in, and the wheels didn’t go round. That's
not ideal.[End of Audio Clips]
(27:40):
If listening to today's show has made youcurious about the place Jo comes from, then
please drop everything and make a point ofwatching the TV show we mentioned right at
the beginning of the episode, 'Derry Girls'.For a start, it's hilarious. But apart from
that, it does help to explain the cultureof Northern Island, which is a part of the
world that not many people in Asia know muchabout, apart from the fact that they filmed
(28:03):
parts of 'Game of Thrones' there.
And coming back to today's conversation, andI think I have one correction about what we
said about this part of the world. We bothsaid that they do dragon dances when they
open a new shop, or office, or factory, whichI said I saw a lot of in Hong Kong. But I
didn't, because those weren't dragons, they'relions. And unlike Jo, I have personally never
(28:27):
seen these lion dances in mainland China,I've only ever seen them when I lived in Hong
Kong, where they used to end the dance bylaying out pieces of fruit in the shape of
auspicious Chinese characters. But yeah, itshould be quite clear to you by now that I
don't know enough about this, so I will shutup before I embarrass myself any more.
To school me on this, please reach out onsocial media, you can add me on WeChat using
the ID (28:51):
mosaicofchina, where I'll add you to the listeners group; or you'll be able
to find the accounts under the same name onInstagram and Facebook. You'll also find photos
there of Jo and her object, the bottle ofwine; her favourite WeChat sticker, which
was from another TV show, not 'Derry Girls',but 'The Golden Girls'; her best purchase,
(29:11):
that red dress she bought off the rack atthe fabric market; and loads of other stuff
too.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. There follows a catch-up
chat with Jorge Luzio, the marketing executivefrom Coca-Cola from Season 01 Episode 05,
so stick around for that. And we'll be backagain next week.
(29:33):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello, Jorge.
JL (29:41):
Hello, how are you? OF
Good to be back. OF
of time together.JL: Unfortunately.
OF (29:54):
In fact, what I've been asking everyone is, where were they when Coronavirus hit.
But I don't have to ask you that, becauseyou and I were both on a skiing trip in Hokkaido,
right?JL: Correct. So we were stuck in Hokkaido,
as you know. And then we decided to stay alittle bit longer, as we received the news
that there was an outbreak in China. So westayed one more week in Tokyo, because I was
(30:20):
planning to go to South Africa. At that time,I was appointed to be the Head of the Sparkling
business in the South African business unit.So we went there. And then the Coronavirus
actually exploded even more in China. So thatforced us to stay even longer, for about three
(30:41):
weeks in South Africa. It was good in thesense that I started to interact with the
team that I was going to work with. But itwas very interesting. As soon as we were able
to go back to China, we decided “OK, let'sgo back”. Because we needed to do all the
paperwork, we needed to start preparing ourselvesto pack our stuff, and prepare ourselves to
(31:02):
go to Africa, right? So we came here, andthen the outbreak started in Africa. So we
couldn't go back. And it was quite quite,painful after that time, to be honest. Because
it took us, like, three months, doing thenew job for Africa, based from here. It was
quite complicated, especially during thisspecific time of COVID, there was a lot of,
(31:26):
you know, uncertainty, anxiousness, back andforth planning… Yep.
So how did it end up, then? JL
2021. That was the best expectation of usto relocate there. So I decided that it was
(31:47):
not sustainable. So I started to talk withmy community, my bosses, other people’s
bosses. And we took the decision of sayingthat I was not going to Africa anymore, because
I was not planning for success. And so now,I've been appointed as a global marketing
(32:08):
director for the innovation of a new segmentthat we are exploring in Coca-Cola, which
is the ‘Emerging Categories’, as we callit. But it’s basically alcohol. I don't
know if you heard in the news?OF: Well, I heard from you.
JL (32:22):
OK. OF
for Coca-Cola. Have you ever done alcoholbefore, as a company?
Sure, we had some attempts in Brazil, and especially in Japan, where we launched,
two years ago, a brand named ‘檸檬堂[Lemon-Do]’, and it's been quite a successful
brand. So the idea is to expand our portfoliotowards that direction, in what we call ‘Flavour
(32:47):
Alcoholic Beverages’. So it's really excitingfor the company. And it’s very seamless,
and very agile, and very highspeed outcomesthat we are doing right now. So it's completely
different for me., and for us as an organisation,especially in the midst of this crisis. I
think it's been quite interesting.OF: And I can see why this makes more sense
(33:09):
than doing a very geography-specific rolefrom a remote location. This role, you can
do from anywhere in the world. Whereas ofcourse, the role you had in Africa was very
much compromised by the fact that you didn'tknow the team, and you were stuck in China,
right?JL: Yes.
OF (33:25):
Did you have any visibility, then, in terms of what Coca-Cola - and your brand,
Sprite - were doing during COVID? Like, werepeople stuck at home and they were ordering
more Sprite? Were the factories still producingthe Sprite?
JL (33:38):
Yes, actually, in China, we had fantastic business continuity. So we prioritised the
big brands, and actually the brands helpedthe consumers to feel like they're secure,
that they have sufficient supply of theirpreferred beverages. We saw that there were
some shifts, in terms of like, there was abig trend during COVID about not drinking
(34:02):
too many sugary beverages. So we saw an importantrise in the non-sugar portfolio, which was
very interesting, also in the way that wecould accommodate the portfolio strategies
behind it.OF: Well, thank you so much, Jorge.
Thank you very much. OF
for the next season. unfortunately they hadto pull out, so there will not be a connection
(34:23):
with the next season. But I found a good replacement.JL: Great.
OF (34:26):
So I hope that you will enjoy that episode as well, and continue being a member of the
Mosaic in the future.JL: Yes, of course, I’m super proud to still
be here.OF: Thanks, Jorge.
JL (34:36):
Thank you.
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