November 3, 2021 • 41 mins
Since being named president of Union County College in 2010, Dr. Margaret McMenamin has aggressively pursued an agenda centering on improving student success outcomes. During her tenure at Union, the College has more than quintupled its IPEDS graduation rate and been recognized by the Aspen Institute for Community College Excellence and Association of Community College Trustees. MSCHE Commissioner Mr. Michael Collins interviews Dr. McMenamin, a former Commission Chair, on the success found at her community college and the role of higher education in diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
[inaudible]
Michael Collins (00:15):
Welcome to the Pillars of Change podcast
presented by the Middle StatesCommissionon Higher Education.
I'm Michael Collins,vice-president at JFF, a
national nonprofit organizationthat works to transform our
nation's education and workforcesystems to create economic
advancement for all.
Over the last 16 years, I've ledJFF's post-secondary state
(00:38):
policy and systems change, workfocused on creating the policy
conditions for institutionalinnovation to increase
post-secondary completion andsuccessful transitions to work.
In the last year, I've beenleading an organizational
initiative to ensure that JFFstrategies are responsive to the
(00:58):
unique challenges that blacklearners and workers face in our
post-secondary and workforcesystems and in the labor market.
I'm also a first yearcommissioner at middle states
Commission for higher education.
I'd like to thank you forjoining me for the commission's
continuing series podcast,focusing on the topics of
diversity, equity and inclusion.
(01:20):
The Middle States Commission onHigher Education is closely
aligned with assuring trust andinstilling confidence in higher
education.
As an institutional accreditor,the Commission prides itself on
advocating for honest,self-reflection that results in
meaningful change at ourinstitutions, and because the
(01:42):
Commission recognizes that itholds an important voice and
space within the highereducation community, this
podcast series spotlights highlyeffective institutional
practices that have made adifference in the lives of our
students through diversity,equity, and inclusion
initiatives.
Today, I'd like to welcome UnionCounty College president Dr.
(02:05):
Margaret McMenamin.
Since being named president in2010, Dr.
McMenamin has aggressivelypursued an agenda centering on
improving student successoutcomes.
During her tenure at Union, thecollege has more than quintupled
its IPEDS graduation rate.
In 2019, the Aspen Institute forCommunity College Excellence
(02:29):
named Union County College as atop 150 community college in
America.
In October, 2020, Dr.
McMenamin was named the Marie Y.
Martin Community College CEO ofthe Year by the Association of
Community College trustees andaward given to CEO's who
demonstrate a commitment toexcellence in advancing the
(02:51):
community college movement.
Additionally, ACC T bestowed theCharles Kennedy Equity Award to
Union County College's board oftrustees and governors for their
support of the colleges projectachievement initiative in which
African-American males are givendynamic advising and real world
exposure, such as college visitsand cultural exploration to
(03:15):
inspire these students toachieve.
From the start of the program in2013, the initiative has more
than quadrupled theAfrican-American male graduation
rate.
I want to also add that in 2019,Dr.
McMenamin served as the chair ofthe Middle States Commissionon
Higher Education.
Welcome to Pillars of Change,Dr.
(03:37):
McMenamin, it's wonderful tohave you on the series.
And I look forward to theinsights.
You're going to share so manythanks in advance for the
conversation.
Margaret McMenamin (03:45):
Well, you're welcome.
And thank you for inviting me.
I'm thrilled to be here, MichaelCollins, and I can't wait to get
started.
Michael Collins (03:52):
Excellent.
Well, I'd like to get ourconversations started maybe with
a little retrospective.
Um, so, you know, if we thinkabout, um, kind of between
spring and summer, uh, you know,of 2020 DEI has taken on a new
level of importance in ourcountry after the racial unrest
in the United States andglobally after the murder of
(04:13):
George Floyd and the massivedemonstrations, protesting
police brutality against blackAmericans and condemning
systemic racism.
I'd be interested in you sharingyour sense of the issues of race
diversity, equity, and inclusionbefore spring and summer of 2020
and today.
Margaret McMenamin (04:30):
Well, I'm a child of the 60s.
So I grew up in the 1960s and1970s, and it's almost like to
quote Yogi Berra, another famousNew Jersey and deja vu all over
again.
Michael, uh, in the 60s and 70s,uh, during the unrest during
those times, uh, the, uh, racialreckoning, the women's movement,
(04:53):
the sexual revolution, drugrevolution, everything that
happened back then, I would havebet my life that by 2020, all of
those issues would have beenresolved.
My generation was focused onmaking the world a better place.
We wanted to transform thisworld.
And frankly, I never would havebelieved that we would have had
(05:15):
situations like we have had thathave been exposed that have been
going on for years, still goingon here in our world in 2020 and
2021.
Certainly I, uh, as I said, as achild of the 60s, 70s, I want
inclusion.
I work, I dedicated my life toworking at a community college.
(05:38):
And when I talk about communitycolleges, I say the best thing
about us is we are inclusive.
We're not like those otherschools that are exclusive.
My sister-in-law bragging aboutsending my nephew to an
exclusive college.
Well, we don't brag aboutexclusivity.
We brag about our inclusivity,our welcoming of everyone.
(06:02):
And that's how I viewed howhigher education would be.
And in my fantasy, in my head,how I viewed this world would be
that each one of us would beable to become the people we
were meant to be in the skin wewere born in.
And we would be accepted for whowe are and judged by who we are.
(06:24):
And not by some prior experiencesomebody had with somebody who
looked like me, it didn't happenMichael, it didn't happen.
And it got exposed.
And I think part of the exposureof the, of the problems in 2020
were fertilized and notcultivated by the hate speech
(06:45):
that was born in the middle partof that decade in 2016, around
the 2016 election, where itbecame open game to, to say
anything about anybody,criticize anybody.
And, uh, and suddenly thehatred, the bigotry, the racism,
(07:07):
the homophobia, and all of thatugliness that frankly was there
all the time just came to thesurface and it's been exposed.
So now 40 years after I, 40, 50years after I thought, wow,
(07:27):
we're moving to the new worldof, of, of peace and love and
acceptance of everyone.
50 years later, the exposure ofthis level of bigotry and hatred
and this much violence hasreally, I don't think it's ever
going to be covered up again.
I think now is the time that we,as a nation, we, as a people are
(07:52):
going to have to address thisissue and it can't be covered up
and hidden and, and made to putperfume on it and made it to
smell good for another 50 years.
We've got to deal with it.
Michael Collins (08:08):
No, I so appreciate, um, everything you
said, you know, I'm, I I'm, I'mnot quite a baby boomer.
I missed it by a couple ofyears.
And like you I've worked in ahigher education, you know, um,
most of my life, and I have tosay, I share a lot of the
reality, um, that I thought wewere moving towards, uh,
resonates, you know, very, verypowerfully, um, with, with what
(08:28):
you said.
You know, I'm, I'm I, to talk alittle bit about higher
education, because it plays suchan important role in framing the
conversation around diversityequity inclusion at the national
level.
Um, in some ways, because of thediscussion often is framed, you
know, kind of by the academyresearch coming out of the
academy, and you could arguethat higher education helps to
set the contours of theconversation, which I think is,
(08:51):
you know, an incrediblyimportant role.
And I'd be curious about yourthoughts about the role that
higher education plays inenhancing or altering the
conversation around diversity,equity and inclusion.
Margaret McMenamin (09:02):
Well, we can be a part of the problem, or we
can be a part of the solution.
Historically, in my opinion,we've been a part of the problem
because higher ed has beenexclusive.
I couldn't go to the colleges Iwanted to go to.
They only took men.
They only accepted men.
Now, maybe when you are going tocollege, they accepted black
folks into the colleges youwanted to go.
But we know for a large part ofour history, even our education
(09:26):
system was an obstacle againstus.
So first we have to eliminatethose obstacles.
We have to open doors foreveryone into higher education.
And I believe the pathway thereis community colleges.
Now I love Cornell and mybrother and sister went there.
Princeton's right down the roadto a great school.
My mother went to Barnard.
(09:47):
Those, those Ivy League schoolsare fantastic, but they're not
the ones who are going to changethe world.
The world changing occurs incommunity colleges because we
are democracies' colleges.
We are the path to a,middle-class a lifestyle for our
students and for their families.
We are the key to economicmobility, community colleges.
(10:12):
American community colleges arethe answer to this.
So if we endorse our communitycolleges, fund our community
colleges and those communitycolleges remain inclusive
environments and open doors tothe pathway to higher education
t higher education can have astronger role in addressing
(10:34):
these DEI issues.
These issues of social andracial justice.
But I believe it's througheducation now.
I'm not Steve Jobs.
I'm not Bill Gates.
I had to go to college.
If you're Steve Jobs, if you'reBill Gates, don't go to college,
make a billion dollars and goodfor you.
But most regular folks like ushave to go to college to change
(10:56):
the world, to make, to get thoseopportunities where we can get
into leadership positions andhave an impact to change the way
the world operates to addressthese issues of social and
racial injustice that havepersisted year after year.
So that's how I see education isthe way out of this.
(11:19):
Give everybody level the playingfield.
When I, when I enter theworkforce, I want to be, uh,
fully qualified, fully educated,and fully prepared to compete
with the wealthiest students Icompete against with the
students who've had the mostopportunity.
And that's what I see we do inhigher ed.
(11:40):
We give students thatopportunity.
They have what's inside of themto move forward, to succeed, to
achieve.
We can give them the other partof the package.
And that is a college degreewith all of the education that
goes behind it.
That's our role.
Michael Collins (11:58):
Yeah.
I think what you said is sopowerful about, um, and I love
your honesty about the way thathigher education sometimes, you
know, has perpetuated some ofthe inequality.
And I will say, um, yes, by thetime I went to college in the
80s, I was able to go tocollege, but my parents were
denied admission, um, to whiteinstitutions.
(12:20):
Um, and frankly, um, you know,uh, the institution that they
were denied admission to, Iwon't name it, it's in Texas.
Um, and, uh, that institutionhas since apologized and has
made financial aid available,right.
But these issues of inclusivityand exclusivity, I think, um,
you know, are, are very, theyresonate with me and I love how
(12:41):
you described what, um,community college can do around
inclusivity.
So I really see,
Margaret McMenamin (12:46):
And it's perpetuated though, Michael,
it's not just the past, youknow, I couldn't get into West
Point or Notre Dame or Lehigh orwherever I wanted to go, but it
continues to be perpetuated withthe stigma of attending a
community college.
You know, too bad.
You had to go to a communitycollege or the, the, uh,
(13:07):
employer who doesn't hire thekid who went, who has the
community college degree insteadof the four-year private degree
or something like that.
We've got to create betterpathways for community college
students to transfer seamlesslyinto those four year colleges.
And we've got to get theemployers to respect the
(13:28):
community college credits anddegrees as much as they should,
because those are things thatperpetuate those obstacles.
Michael Collins (13:37):
Well, our next question is kinda kind of get
into that, um, because, uh, youknow, higher education
institutions have often haveblock brought influence beyond
the campus, you know, as abridge to surrounding
communities and driving localand regional civic and economic
development.
So I'm wondering if you couldtalk to us about the role that
the college and college leadersplay in diversity and equity
(13:57):
inclusion, both on campus, butalso in the surrounding
communities, including, youknow, with employer partners.
Margaret McMenamin (14:10):
I think the hardest challenge for colleges
is appears to be, isdiversifying their employees.
Historically higher ed employeeshave been white and generally
white males.
Okay.
White and white males.
For instance, I was the firstfemale president of my college
(14:30):
hired in 2010.
I mean, it seems crazy to methat we never have a woman
president before them.
Um, but it, it, it, we have todo a better job diversifying our
faculty and staff, our students,the people in our community and
even our, and it's not just inthe under levels in our
(14:51):
positions, our students, ouremployees, and the people in our
communities need to seediversity reflected in the
leadership of our colleges anduniversities.
They need to see that philosophyof inclusion and diversity and
equity reflected in the teachingstaff at the college, both in
(15:14):
the full-time faculty and in thepart-time the adjunct staff at
the faculty and in the studentdevelopment staff, if we have a
diverse community and we have acollege that doesn't reflect the
diversity of that community, itsends a message.
It sends a message whether youwant it to or not.
So the first thing we do is weneed to ensure that our colleges
(15:37):
and universities are reflectiveof our community in terms of the
diversity of both.
And I'm sure they're shakingtheir heads as they're listening
to this podcast.
And they're saying, oh, that'seasy for you to say, but it's
hard to find them.
It may be hard and it's ahassle, but we have to do it.
And number two, the other partof what we do to answer your
(16:00):
question helps with this.
We need to get more communitystudents of color across the
finish line with collegedegrees, period.
I mean, we're not going to dothat first.
And then populate our facultyand staff and administrators
with more people of color.
We've got to do themconcurrently.
But if we had been doing abetter job of helping students
(16:22):
of color graduate, historically,we wouldn't have such a hard
time finding people of colorwith college degrees to fill
those roles.
The challenge is in my humbleopinion, and I know this doesn't
make me popular, Michael, butI'm not trying to be popular for
your podcast.
The real challenge, in myopinion is we never really
(16:43):
worked hard enough at helpingour students, our most
compromised students get acrossthe finish line.
We have excepted disgraceful,graduation rates and blame the
students and said, well, they'redoing the best they can, or it's
a victory.
They pass developmental math, orI know he didn't get his degree,
(17:05):
but he can recite the, theprologue to the Canterbury Tales
in middle English.
Well, I will say to you thatnone of those things is going to
help that person have a betterlife.
None of those things is going tohelp pull their family out of
poverty.
None of those things is going toset an example for the people in
that street on that communitythat a college degree matters.
(17:28):
We've got to commit to gettingmore students across the finish
line and not just the Ivy leaguestudents and the students in the
expensive private universities,but we need to do a better job
of getting the most compromisedstudents, our community college
students across the finish linewith a college degree,
(17:50):
transferred to legitimatecolleges, four year colleges for
the bachelor's degree and intogreat careers that will sustain
their families.
That's where we have got to do abetter job.
And then we'll have more leadersof color, more diversity among
all leadership groups.
But if we just sit aroundtalking about the students can
(18:11):
achieve, we'll never increasethose graduation rates, then
we'll never crack this nut.
Michael Collins (18:16):
You know, you, um, you have, um, set a great
example, uh, for, uh, for usaround completion.
You've had great success withAfrican-American male, uh,
population, um, that highereducation frankly, has struggled
to serve.
And I'd love for you to talk tous about, you know, what have
been your greatest opportunitiesand challenges, you know, in
(18:36):
your efforts to serve, um, kindof that student population and
other student populations, um,that have been underrepresented.
Margaret McMenamin (18:45):
The greatest challenge is people...
I'm going to blame us.
The greatest challenge is thatwe higher ed people in higher ed
higher education, are doing thesame thing over and over again,
(19:06):
and thinking it's going to workthis time.
Or if we did, if we did onelevel of developmental ed and
that still didn't increase thegraduation rates, maybe what
they need is two levels ofdevelopmental ed and that'll
really work.
And then what we did was twolevels didn't work.
We did three and I will confesswe had more than three levels
(19:29):
here when I got here.
So I'm not, I don't even want totell you how many levels we had,
but we don't want to change.
When I say we that's the Royalwe, we in higher ed, we liked
what we do the way we do it.
We don't want to change.
And when somebody comes in, aleader comes in and says, it's
(19:49):
not working.
We must radically change this.
They are then unceremoniouslyled out the door and somebody
else will come in.
Who does it more the way wealways did it.
And that we're more comfortabledoing.
And then we, we, we accept thatand we blame the students and or
(20:10):
we blame the K to 12 people, orwe blame their parents or we
blame society.
And we say, this is what povertydoes.
We blame the Republicans let'sblame them.
Okay.
Let's blame.
Let's blame, whoever it is thatisn't us, it's their fault.
It's not what we're doing.
But my contention is we have thepower to make a difference to
(20:34):
radically change the outcomes inhigher education.
But it's hard work and peoplewill be upset about it when you
do it because you're changingthe way we've always done.
So that's the problem.
We're unwilling to change inhigher ed.
You want me to blame the kids?
Oh, they don't study enough tonot committed.
(20:56):
You know, millennials, how, whena bunch of...
I'm not going to do that, I'mnot blaming the students.
I'll quote and I'll give him thecredit retired president of
Valencia College in Florida,Sandy Shugart teach the students
you have not the ones you wishyou had.
I'm tired of hearing people talkabout the good old days with the
students.
(21:16):
There were no good old days.
These are the students.
These are the good old days.
They are too, by the way,Michael, these are the good old
days.
Someday we'll realize that, butwe've got to stop blaming the
students.
These are the students we have.
You want to have a bunch ofgeniuses with straight A's in
1600 on their college boards gowork at Princeton.
Don't work here.
(21:37):
That's not our student body.
Our student body needs more helpand, and we have to be willing
to do it.
And if we go in, which is whatwe do in high read the Royal we,
oh, they're adults now sink orswim.
You've got to do it.
I'm not going to hold his hand.
All of those things, all of thatis deadly to first-generation
(21:59):
college students, to poorstudents, to students who don't
have a lot of confidence tostudents who don't know the
system, that's deadly to themand they do drown and we watch
them drown.
And then we blame them fordrowning, even though we've
never taught them how to swim.
Michael Collins (22:15):
Yeah.
It's such a difficult, um, it'ssuch a difficult picture and
what, the way you paint it.
And it's, it's so tragic becauseif you think about kind of our
investments in, you know,whether or not you think Pell is
great enough, but like, youknow, these, these young people,
you know, kind of taking their,taking their Pell, going to
college, trying to get thatcredential that could have, you
know, kind of lifelong earningsimplications and us not being
(22:38):
able to serve them just it'soverwhelming.
Right.
But the, the failure.
And so the opportunity is justhuge to be able to serve these
students.
And you've done it so well,particularly with, you know, a
population again that I thinkhas struggled African-American
males.
And so really congratulations onthat great work.
I'm wondering if you think thatwe have a moment in time to kind
(22:59):
of disrupt, um, some of thethings that weren't working.
I mean, I'm just random.
Margaret McMenamin (23:04):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Now is the time.
This is it.
You know, I mean, everybody'ssaying it for the last 18
months.
I know you're tired of hearingit, but I'll say it never waste
a good crisis.
You know, never waste a goodcrisis.
This is a tremendous opportunityfor us to make radical changes
in higher ed.
Now we're making them, I, yousee them across everybody, you
(23:26):
know, let's go remote.
We wouldn't go remote.
You think we're going remote forthe students.
Let me tell you, I think we'remaking those radical changes
because certain people wouldrather stay home.
And I'm not going to say whothose certain people are.
But I think everybody on thispodcast knows who I'm talking
about.
They want to stay home in theirpajamas and their slippers, and
they think that's a radicalchange.
(23:47):
Well, remote live is a radicalchange in higher ed.
It's one of the changes thatwill survive this pandemic, but
we should be making otherradical changes in higher ed
that could dramatically improveour student success outcomes.
But it's hard.
It's hard to make these changesby Glenn.
Yes, you've referenced ourchanges.
(24:08):
We rose our black malegraduation rate rose from 5% at
one point.
And right now it's a 28 andchange.
Now that is something peoplesaid was impossible.
I wouldn't believe it.
If I didn't see the numbers,I've had it verified four times
and it's been over a four years,it's gone up.
It's real, but those were hardchanges to make hard things, to
(24:31):
create hard, um, uh,accomplishments.
But they came as a result ofmaking big changes to the way we
interact with our students.
We didn't just hand them theirPell money and say, we'll check
out in three years.
See if you graduate, we calledthem back.
We said, Michael, where are you?
(24:52):
We miss you, Michael, you couldcure cancer.
Michael, come to class, Michaeljoined this club, Michael do
this.
And eventually it caught on itresonated.
It worked, but that was notdoing the same old stuff that
you do in colleges and studentdevelopment that is having a
deliberate plan to help more ofthese compromised students get
(25:13):
across the finish line and itworked, it worked dramatically.
Michael Collins (25:18):
That's great.
It's a great example for it's agreat example and a great
template for, um, for what'spossible.
I love those numbers that youposted and it's so important for
that population and for thecommunity.
And I think it's such animportant message for right now.
I want to stick on this issue ofkind of the moment.
And I'm just, you know, I worrya lot about this moment being
performative.
(25:39):
And I'm just wondering iflessons learned, you know,
through 2020 and 2021, we'vegone through so much the
pandemic and Black lives matter.
You know, you referenced theelections.
I'm just wondering, like in thisgreater moment of awareness of
racial bias in our systems, youknow, how do we, um, what do we
need to do to sustain kind of,um, kind of the changes that are
(26:01):
happening in this moment andinstitutions, um, so that this
isn't like a performative momentthat kind of goes away.
Margaret McMenamin (26:09):
Well, we have a great opportunity and
this is one of the questionswe're wrestling with in every
venue right now.
How do you sustain this now?
We're, we're, we're aware weknow, or we've fixed this, or,
or, or how do we stop us fromsliding backwards?
And this is a, it's an ongoingchallenge for us.
(26:31):
Uh, I believe certainly shiningthe light on the issues and
continuing to shine.
The light on the issues willhelp.
We added, uh, we haveinstitutional priorities at
Union.
Our priorities are, have beenhistorically enrollment, student
success and innovation.
(26:53):
Well, we added DEI and socialjustice to that.
So how we keep the conversationgoing on my campuses, every
meeting we talk about those fourpriorities that's to keep us
focused on all of thosepriorities.
So we talk about it.
What are we doing?
How are we doing it?
What's going on?
Do we have any, uh, any issueshave surfaced any we're going
(27:15):
through a, uh, policy review toidentify any, because we want to
be good.
We want to be the bestinstitution we can be for all of
our community.
So I, I'm not an expert atimplicit bias and things like
that and systemic racism.
So we're actually, I'm having agroup go through policies to
say, is there something in herethat I don't see, or that maybe
(27:37):
somebody like me wouldn'tnotice, but it is an instance
of, of, of a problem orsomething that could facilitate
or lead to something.
I think we have to keep it onthe front burner.
We have to keep talking aboutit.
I had faith in our generation.
I now lecture our students atevery commencement exercise that
I say, and it's everyone.
(27:59):
I do the same one almost everytime.
I say my generation failed.
We thought we were going tosolve these problems for you and
hand to you on a silver platter,a world of people who loved and
respected one another and, andtreated each other with dignity.
I said, we have failed.
We haven't done that, but weneed you to do it.
Now.
(28:19):
I have a lot of faith in thisgeneration.
I'm not one of the critics.
I'm not one of those peoplegoing around saying these damn
millennials or these Gen Zersare terrible.
I believe in them.
I believe they are going to helpto prevent this from falling
under the, going back onto therug and resurfacing 50 years
from now.
They're a different group ofkids.
(28:39):
There's more there appears to bein my view is I see 10,000
students every day, they appearto be much less focused on race
and gender and sexualorientation and more focused on
what are you into I'm into thisand common interests that have
nothing to do with the thingsthat mattered to our parents.
(29:01):
So I'm hopeful that thisgeneration will help, but what
I'm doing at my role, 1.,Graduating more future leaders
of color 2.
Putting more leaders of color in, uh, people of color in
leadership positions so that ourleadership team is reflective of
our community.
(29:21):
And I'll tell you, the lastthing we're doing to try to
sustain this is my chiefacademic officer is working with
our faculty in criminal justiceto convene some meetings with
local law enforcement, about ourcriminal justice curriculum.
The majority of our local lawenforcement are educated at
(29:46):
Union County College.
You could get a ticket here.
It's probably from one of mygraduates.
We believe that if we can haveimpact on that criminal justice
curriculum, that that couldinfluence policing in the
future.
I mean, I'm talking aboutdirectly to George Floyd.
I want it to influence policing.
I, I mean, we have some greatpolice officers and law
(30:07):
enforcement agencies here inUnion County.
And I have some great on mystaff here, retired law
enforcement officers of allraces, you know, everything, and
we want to make things better.
So right now I hear wordMichael, that there's a lower
fewer, many fewer people goingto the police academy and things
(30:28):
like that.
And as you know, everybody'shaving trouble getting good
employees, getting employees atall.
Right now there's an opportunityif we get more good people into
the police academy.
Now in 10 years, 20 years,they're going to be the chiefs
and the captains and thelieutenants who are going to
have a greater influence on theworkings in those law
(30:49):
enforcement agencies, peopleentering the college now as
academic specialists or advisorsare going to be the next deans
and academic officers in thefuture.
So the diversity of the hires wemake today and the preparation
and the philosophy of thosepeople is going to have the
(31:10):
greatest impact as we moveforward.
So as I hire people today, I'mthinking about when I'm in a
nursing home around that cruisearound the world, you know, in
my wheelchair, these are thepeople who are going to be
sustaining what we're trying toput in place now.
And that includes all of thoseDEI initiatives.
(31:31):
So it can't just be, I'm hiringpeople.
Now we think student success isimportant.
I have to also hire people rightnow who understand the
importance of that inclusivitypiece.
I want us to be that Oasis.
It doesn't matter who you are,what color you are, what of the
73 genders you are or whateverit is.
(31:53):
We want you here at Union CountyCollege, and you will have a
place to go here.
If I can hire more people who'swho believe in that Oasis
philosophy, then I can have animpact for generations to come.
At least here,
Michael Collins (32:09):
I can tell you as, as a person of color and as
somebody who's raising a, uh,you know, a 10-year-old old son,
you know, the, the world thatyou describe, you know, kind of
brings my blood pressure down alittle bit.
I love it like a world ofinclusivity, where we are kind
of educating the next generationto accommodate kind of
diversity, equity and inclusion.
(32:30):
We are engaging our lawenforcement and you're, I love
that.
You're thinking through thosesecond, third and fourth order
effects, you know, kind of todaybuilding for that, that future
that we want.
And I love that, um, you know,that, that you are painting that
picture because it's possible.
And, and you know, and I, and Iwant a world that can
accommodate my, my son, you know, uh, I love that, um, that,
(32:55):
that you are on the case.
It's wonderful.
Wonderful to hear.
I've got two more questions foryou.
I know you're busy, but we wantto, um, uh, uh, make the most of
our time.
I'm curious, you do a lot ofthinking about kind of
diversity, equity and inclusion,but I'm wondering, um, you know,
what is the most urgent issue,um, that higher education
leaders need to address, um, todramatically advance diversity,
(33:17):
equity and inclusion that youthink needs more attention?
So there's a lot of things rightnow, but what needs more
attention?
Margaret McMenamin (33:22):
Okay.
Well, I, since you gave me thesequestions ahead of time, I asked
somebody smarter than me aboutthis as a, what do you think it
is?
And they immediately shouted itout.
It's about equity.
It's about figuring out whatdoes that mean?
What does it mean?
So if we have, I'll say 98% ofthe people want to do a good
(33:43):
job.
They do.
They're decent people.
They're not jerks.
They don't want to hurt anybody.
Forget about the 2% who are bad.
People put them over there.
So I want to do right.
I want to be equitable.
I want equity, but what doesthat mean in the classroom?
What does that mean in terms ofpedagogy equity?
What does that mean?
Um, in terms of advising orextra extracurricular activity,
(34:06):
what, how does it ma thatmanifested in every area?
Um, what does it mean in theclassroom?
Are we really in Oasis?
Does that mean how, how willthat be?
How will we know that we did it?
We just did a survey on race andgender and union, and we think
(34:27):
we're doing a good job.
We think we're pretty welcomingplace, but the real question is
how do you measure?
How do we know if we're there?
How do we know?
And that's where, you know, isit, you just have the right
percentage of people in jobs,then you're doing a good job.
Is it, is it when students fillout a survey and say, they felt
(34:48):
welcomed?
There it's a good job.
I don't, I would, we want to doa good job.
We won the award from theAssociation for Community
College Trustees.
And we, we deserved it becauseof our outcomes.
But in terms of the rest ofthis, how are we measuring it?
I like pick things I canmeasure, because I don't want to
(35:11):
BS people.
I don't want to say, yeah, yeah.
We're all into DEI and it all tobe a bunch of baloney, but what
does it, what does it mean andhow is it manifested and what
does it look like for thatinstructor in that classroom?
Michael Collins (35:25):
Yeah.
I love your answer, right?
Because it's concrete and it'smaesurable and it has
implications for what I askedearlier about like, how do you
sustain these things, right.
So measuring kind of impact, butyou also talked about kind of
some of the policy audits you'redoing, right.
And so like policy change andbeing able to measure like,
actually I think does contributeto, um, us sustaining kind of
(35:46):
these efforts past kind of this,this moment of reckoning, if you
will.
So I love that.
I have one final question and I,I can tell a Dr.
McMenamin, this is personal workfor you.
It's personal, it'sprofessional, but it's also
personal.
But so I want to end with this,um, this question, you know, in
what ways do you hope yourinstitution's efforts on
diversity, equity, inclusion?
(36:06):
You know, how do you hope itwill impact your current and
future students?
Margaret McMenamin (36:11):
I know I'm, I'm corny twin sisters.
She calls me captain cornball.
Okay.
But I believe in the totality ofthe talent of the human beings,
everybody on earth.
And I just think we should beincluding everybody because
there's a lot of talent.
And I just hope one day, one ofour community college graduates,
(36:34):
and I was hoping it would be aUnion County College graduate
will go out there and dosomething unbelievably
extraordinary so that it willprovide a direct, more direct
ties to people who understandthat poor kid coming into that
poor community, who looks verydifferent from you and your
(36:55):
family is going to save yourchild's life when they find the
cure for that form of childhoodleukemia.
So, so stop excluding people wholook different from you stop
that.
I was a physical therapy majorat Temple University, and this
part of my education there, Ihad to do human dissection in my
(37:19):
junior year at Temple, in themed school.
And I came from a big family,but we were very modest.
I'd never seen her naked bodybefore and there, they all were
about 80 naked bodies on theslabs.
But Michael.
It was the first time I'd everseen a naked body like that
inside my own, but remarkablething, Michael, once we cut
(37:40):
their skin off, they all lookthe same.
There was not one difference.
It was for the men weredifferent from the women in the
obvious ways when we took theirskin off.
But remarkably the black peoplewere identical to the white
people.
When you took their skin off,you couldn't tell them apart.
So, I mean, I just, I just wouldlove to, you know, uh, to see
(38:01):
this world where we would stopjudging people by how they look.
I would, I would, I mean, I getit.
I have to wear high heels and asuit and fix my hair and all of
those things.
And I know you have to lookreasonably presentables, but
judging people by their skincolor or their ethnicity or
(38:23):
their body size or their genderand all of that.
I just think it's, it's a badthing to do.
And, and, uh, just in terms of,you know, the race issue, I know
that, I mean, I live in acommunity that is very diverse,
but I know we have our racistshere in my community and I'm
just praying for the day that mykids saved the life.
(38:46):
My diverse students save thelives of the bigots in my
community.
That's what I want, I want.
And I want to change them.
I want to change them withgoodness, as opposed to beating
them over the head with a, witha protest on, I want to help
enlighten these folks so thatthey can understand that once we
(39:07):
cut the skin off, we're all thesame, you know, how's that, is
that too preachy?
Michael Collins (39:12):
Uh, no, not at all.
Thank you so much for thisconversation and really for your
leadership, Dr.
McMenamin, um, you know,congratulations on the wonderful
success that you've had at thecollege, and particularly when
your success graduating Africanmale learners.
I think it's just incredible.
It's a great example of thepossibilities.
Um, and I think that, you know,this is, um, the conversation
(39:34):
that all of higher educationneeds to hear.
I want to thank you so much foryour insights that you shared
with the listeners here on thePillars of Change podcast
series, but also justpersonally, thank you.
I, I, um, found energy and, um,in, in our conversation and, um,
(39:54):
you painted a world that Ibelieve in, I want to believe
in, in sometimes, you know, as ablack man in this country, when
you see kind of what's going onin some of the debates going on,
you just scratch your headgoing, like, you know, can this
be happening in my lifetime?
And, uh, you gave us a vision ofseeing past that.
And we are, um, at the same,like, uh, you know, and, and not
(40:17):
to be kind of designing our, ourworld around, you know,
heritable traits that we hadnothing to do with, right.
So I really just appreciate somuch, um, our conversation.
So I want to also thank ourlisteners for joining us.
And, um, if, if you want theCommissionto highlight the
efforts of your institution in afuture podcast, then please
(40:38):
visit M S C H E.org/Pillars ofChange to submit your
suggestion.
And on behalf of the MiddleStates Commissionon on Higher
Education and our guest, thefabulous Dr.
Margaret McMenamin, uh, onMichael Collins saying, thank
you for joining Pillars ofChange.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
[inaudible].
[inaudible]
Michael Collins (00:15):
Welcome to the Pillars of Change podcast
presented by the Middle StatesCommissionon Higher Education.
I'm Michael Collins,vice-president at JFF, a
national nonprofit organizationthat works to transform our
nation's education and workforcesystems to create economic
advancement for all.
Over the last 16 years, I've ledJFF's post-secondary state
(00:38):
policy and systems change, workfocused on creating the policy
conditions for institutionalinnovation to increase
post-secondary completion andsuccessful transitions to work.
In the last year, I've beenleading an organizational
initiative to ensure that JFFstrategies are responsive to the
(00:58):
unique challenges that blacklearners and workers face in our
post-secondary and workforcesystems and in the labor market.
I'm also a first yearcommissioner at middle states
Commission for higher education.
I'd like to thank you forjoining me for the commission's
continuing series podcast,focusing on the topics of
diversity, equity and inclusion.
(01:20):
The Middle States Commission onHigher Education is closely
aligned with assuring trust andinstilling confidence in higher
education.
As an institutional accreditor,the Commission prides itself on
advocating for honest,self-reflection that results in
meaningful change at ourinstitutions, and because the
(01:42):
Commission recognizes that itholds an important voice and
space within the highereducation community, this
podcast series spotlights highlyeffective institutional
practices that have made adifference in the lives of our
students through diversity,equity, and inclusion
initiatives.
Today, I'd like to welcome UnionCounty College president Dr.
(02:05):
Margaret McMenamin.
Since being named president in2010, Dr.
McMenamin has aggressivelypursued an agenda centering on
improving student successoutcomes.
During her tenure at Union, thecollege has more than quintupled
its IPEDS graduation rate.
In 2019, the Aspen Institute forCommunity College Excellence
(02:29):
named Union County College as atop 150 community college in
America.
In October, 2020, Dr.
McMenamin was named the Marie Y.
Martin Community College CEO ofthe Year by the Association of
Community College trustees andaward given to CEO's who
demonstrate a commitment toexcellence in advancing the
(02:51):
community college movement.
Additionally, ACC T bestowed theCharles Kennedy Equity Award to
Union County College's board oftrustees and governors for their
support of the colleges projectachievement initiative in which
African-American males are givendynamic advising and real world
exposure, such as college visitsand cultural exploration to
(03:15):
inspire these students toachieve.
From the start of the program in2013, the initiative has more
than quadrupled theAfrican-American male graduation
rate.
I want to also add that in 2019,Dr.
McMenamin served as the chair ofthe Middle States Commissionon
Higher Education.
Welcome to Pillars of Change,Dr.
(03:37):
McMenamin, it's wonderful tohave you on the series.
And I look forward to theinsights.
You're going to share so manythanks in advance for the
conversation.
Margaret McMenamin (03:45):
Well, you're welcome.
And thank you for inviting me.
I'm thrilled to be here, MichaelCollins, and I can't wait to get
started.
Michael Collins (03:52):
Excellent.
Well, I'd like to get ourconversations started maybe with
a little retrospective.
Um, so, you know, if we thinkabout, um, kind of between
spring and summer, uh, you know,of 2020 DEI has taken on a new
level of importance in ourcountry after the racial unrest
in the United States andglobally after the murder of
(04:13):
George Floyd and the massivedemonstrations, protesting
police brutality against blackAmericans and condemning
systemic racism.
I'd be interested in you sharingyour sense of the issues of race
diversity, equity, and inclusionbefore spring and summer of 2020
and today.
Margaret McMenamin (04:30):
Well, I'm a child of the 60s.
So I grew up in the 1960s and1970s, and it's almost like to
quote Yogi Berra, another famousNew Jersey and deja vu all over
again.
Michael, uh, in the 60s and 70s,uh, during the unrest during
those times, uh, the, uh, racialreckoning, the women's movement,
(04:53):
the sexual revolution, drugrevolution, everything that
happened back then, I would havebet my life that by 2020, all of
those issues would have beenresolved.
My generation was focused onmaking the world a better place.
We wanted to transform thisworld.
And frankly, I never would havebelieved that we would have had
(05:15):
situations like we have had thathave been exposed that have been
going on for years, still goingon here in our world in 2020 and
2021.
Certainly I, uh, as I said, as achild of the 60s, 70s, I want
inclusion.
I work, I dedicated my life toworking at a community college.
(05:38):
And when I talk about communitycolleges, I say the best thing
about us is we are inclusive.
We're not like those otherschools that are exclusive.
My sister-in-law bragging aboutsending my nephew to an
exclusive college.
Well, we don't brag aboutexclusivity.
We brag about our inclusivity,our welcoming of everyone.
(06:02):
And that's how I viewed howhigher education would be.
And in my fantasy, in my head,how I viewed this world would be
that each one of us would beable to become the people we
were meant to be in the skin wewere born in.
And we would be accepted for whowe are and judged by who we are.
(06:24):
And not by some prior experiencesomebody had with somebody who
looked like me, it didn't happenMichael, it didn't happen.
And it got exposed.
And I think part of the exposureof the, of the problems in 2020
were fertilized and notcultivated by the hate speech
(06:45):
that was born in the middle partof that decade in 2016, around
the 2016 election, where itbecame open game to, to say
anything about anybody,criticize anybody.
And, uh, and suddenly thehatred, the bigotry, the racism,
(07:07):
the homophobia, and all of thatugliness that frankly was there
all the time just came to thesurface and it's been exposed.
So now 40 years after I, 40, 50years after I thought, wow,
(07:27):
we're moving to the new worldof, of, of peace and love and
acceptance of everyone.
50 years later, the exposure ofthis level of bigotry and hatred
and this much violence hasreally, I don't think it's ever
going to be covered up again.
I think now is the time that we,as a nation, we, as a people are
(07:52):
going to have to address thisissue and it can't be covered up
and hidden and, and made to putperfume on it and made it to
smell good for another 50 years.
We've got to deal with it.
Michael Collins (08:08):
No, I so appreciate, um, everything you
said, you know, I'm, I I'm, I'mnot quite a baby boomer.
I missed it by a couple ofyears.
And like you I've worked in ahigher education, you know, um,
most of my life, and I have tosay, I share a lot of the
reality, um, that I thought wewere moving towards, uh,
resonates, you know, very, verypowerfully, um, with, with what
(08:28):
you said.
You know, I'm, I'm I, to talk alittle bit about higher
education, because it plays suchan important role in framing the
conversation around diversityequity inclusion at the national
level.
Um, in some ways, because of thediscussion often is framed, you
know, kind of by the academyresearch coming out of the
academy, and you could arguethat higher education helps to
set the contours of theconversation, which I think is,
(08:51):
you know, an incrediblyimportant role.
And I'd be curious about yourthoughts about the role that
higher education plays inenhancing or altering the
conversation around diversity,equity and inclusion.
Margaret McMenamin (09:02):
Well, we can be a part of the problem, or we
can be a part of the solution.
Historically, in my opinion,we've been a part of the problem
because higher ed has beenexclusive.
I couldn't go to the colleges Iwanted to go to.
They only took men.
They only accepted men.
Now, maybe when you are going tocollege, they accepted black
folks into the colleges youwanted to go.
But we know for a large part ofour history, even our education
(09:26):
system was an obstacle againstus.
So first we have to eliminatethose obstacles.
We have to open doors foreveryone into higher education.
And I believe the pathway thereis community colleges.
Now I love Cornell and mybrother and sister went there.
Princeton's right down the roadto a great school.
My mother went to Barnard.
(09:47):
Those, those Ivy League schoolsare fantastic, but they're not
the ones who are going to changethe world.
The world changing occurs incommunity colleges because we
are democracies' colleges.
We are the path to a,middle-class a lifestyle for our
students and for their families.
We are the key to economicmobility, community colleges.
(10:12):
American community colleges arethe answer to this.
So if we endorse our communitycolleges, fund our community
colleges and those communitycolleges remain inclusive
environments and open doors tothe pathway to higher education
t higher education can have astronger role in addressing
(10:34):
these DEI issues.
These issues of social andracial justice.
But I believe it's througheducation now.
I'm not Steve Jobs.
I'm not Bill Gates.
I had to go to college.
If you're Steve Jobs, if you'reBill Gates, don't go to college,
make a billion dollars and goodfor you.
But most regular folks like ushave to go to college to change
(10:56):
the world, to make, to get thoseopportunities where we can get
into leadership positions andhave an impact to change the way
the world operates to addressthese issues of social and
racial injustice that havepersisted year after year.
So that's how I see education isthe way out of this.
(11:19):
Give everybody level the playingfield.
When I, when I enter theworkforce, I want to be, uh,
fully qualified, fully educated,and fully prepared to compete
with the wealthiest students Icompete against with the
students who've had the mostopportunity.
And that's what I see we do inhigher ed.
(11:40):
We give students thatopportunity.
They have what's inside of themto move forward, to succeed, to
achieve.
We can give them the other partof the package.
And that is a college degreewith all of the education that
goes behind it.
That's our role.
Michael Collins (11:58):
Yeah.
I think what you said is sopowerful about, um, and I love
your honesty about the way thathigher education sometimes, you
know, has perpetuated some ofthe inequality.
And I will say, um, yes, by thetime I went to college in the
80s, I was able to go tocollege, but my parents were
denied admission, um, to whiteinstitutions.
(12:20):
Um, and frankly, um, you know,uh, the institution that they
were denied admission to, Iwon't name it, it's in Texas.
Um, and, uh, that institutionhas since apologized and has
made financial aid available,right.
But these issues of inclusivityand exclusivity, I think, um,
you know, are, are very, theyresonate with me and I love how
(12:41):
you described what, um,community college can do around
inclusivity.
So I really see,
Margaret McMenamin (12:46):
And it's perpetuated though, Michael,
it's not just the past, youknow, I couldn't get into West
Point or Notre Dame or Lehigh orwherever I wanted to go, but it
continues to be perpetuated withthe stigma of attending a
community college.
You know, too bad.
You had to go to a communitycollege or the, the, uh,
(13:07):
employer who doesn't hire thekid who went, who has the
community college degree insteadof the four-year private degree
or something like that.
We've got to create betterpathways for community college
students to transfer seamlesslyinto those four year colleges.
And we've got to get theemployers to respect the
(13:28):
community college credits anddegrees as much as they should,
because those are things thatperpetuate those obstacles.
Michael Collins (13:37):
Well, our next question is kinda kind of get
into that, um, because, uh, youknow, higher education
institutions have often haveblock brought influence beyond
the campus, you know, as abridge to surrounding
communities and driving localand regional civic and economic
development.
So I'm wondering if you couldtalk to us about the role that
the college and college leadersplay in diversity and equity
(13:57):
inclusion, both on campus, butalso in the surrounding
communities, including, youknow, with employer partners.
Margaret McMenamin (14:10):
I think the hardest challenge for colleges
is appears to be, isdiversifying their employees.
Historically higher ed employeeshave been white and generally
white males.
Okay.
White and white males.
For instance, I was the firstfemale president of my college
(14:30):
hired in 2010.
I mean, it seems crazy to methat we never have a woman
president before them.
Um, but it, it, it, we have todo a better job diversifying our
faculty and staff, our students,the people in our community and
even our, and it's not just inthe under levels in our
(14:51):
positions, our students, ouremployees, and the people in our
communities need to seediversity reflected in the
leadership of our colleges anduniversities.
They need to see that philosophyof inclusion and diversity and
equity reflected in the teachingstaff at the college, both in
(15:14):
the full-time faculty and in thepart-time the adjunct staff at
the faculty and in the studentdevelopment staff, if we have a
diverse community and we have acollege that doesn't reflect the
diversity of that community, itsends a message.
It sends a message whether youwant it to or not.
So the first thing we do is weneed to ensure that our colleges
(15:37):
and universities are reflectiveof our community in terms of the
diversity of both.
And I'm sure they're shakingtheir heads as they're listening
to this podcast.
And they're saying, oh, that'seasy for you to say, but it's
hard to find them.
It may be hard and it's ahassle, but we have to do it.
And number two, the other partof what we do to answer your
(16:00):
question helps with this.
We need to get more communitystudents of color across the
finish line with collegedegrees, period.
I mean, we're not going to dothat first.
And then populate our facultyand staff and administrators
with more people of color.
We've got to do themconcurrently.
But if we had been doing abetter job of helping students
(16:22):
of color graduate, historically,we wouldn't have such a hard
time finding people of colorwith college degrees to fill
those roles.
The challenge is in my humbleopinion, and I know this doesn't
make me popular, Michael, butI'm not trying to be popular for
your podcast.
The real challenge, in myopinion is we never really
(16:43):
worked hard enough at helpingour students, our most
compromised students get acrossthe finish line.
We have excepted disgraceful,graduation rates and blame the
students and said, well, they'redoing the best they can, or it's
a victory.
They pass developmental math, orI know he didn't get his degree,
(17:05):
but he can recite the, theprologue to the Canterbury Tales
in middle English.
Well, I will say to you thatnone of those things is going to
help that person have a betterlife.
None of those things is going tohelp pull their family out of
poverty.
None of those things is going toset an example for the people in
that street on that communitythat a college degree matters.
(17:28):
We've got to commit to gettingmore students across the finish
line and not just the Ivy leaguestudents and the students in the
expensive private universities,but we need to do a better job
of getting the most compromisedstudents, our community college
students across the finish linewith a college degree,
(17:50):
transferred to legitimatecolleges, four year colleges for
the bachelor's degree and intogreat careers that will sustain
their families.
That's where we have got to do abetter job.
And then we'll have more leadersof color, more diversity among
all leadership groups.
But if we just sit aroundtalking about the students can
(18:11):
achieve, we'll never increasethose graduation rates, then
we'll never crack this nut.
Michael Collins (18:16):
You know, you, um, you have, um, set a great
example, uh, for, uh, for usaround completion.
You've had great success withAfrican-American male, uh,
population, um, that highereducation frankly, has struggled
to serve.
And I'd love for you to talk tous about, you know, what have
been your greatest opportunitiesand challenges, you know, in
(18:36):
your efforts to serve, um, kindof that student population and
other student populations, um,that have been underrepresented.
Margaret McMenamin (18:45):
The greatest challenge is people...
I'm going to blame us.
The greatest challenge is thatwe higher ed people in higher ed
higher education, are doing thesame thing over and over again,
(19:06):
and thinking it's going to workthis time.
Or if we did, if we did onelevel of developmental ed and
that still didn't increase thegraduation rates, maybe what
they need is two levels ofdevelopmental ed and that'll
really work.
And then what we did was twolevels didn't work.
We did three and I will confesswe had more than three levels
(19:29):
here when I got here.
So I'm not, I don't even want totell you how many levels we had,
but we don't want to change.
When I say we that's the Royalwe, we in higher ed, we liked
what we do the way we do it.
We don't want to change.
And when somebody comes in, aleader comes in and says, it's
(19:49):
not working.
We must radically change this.
They are then unceremoniouslyled out the door and somebody
else will come in.
Who does it more the way wealways did it.
And that we're more comfortabledoing.
And then we, we, we accept thatand we blame the students and or
(20:10):
we blame the K to 12 people, orwe blame their parents or we
blame society.
And we say, this is what povertydoes.
We blame the Republicans let'sblame them.
Okay.
Let's blame.
Let's blame, whoever it is thatisn't us, it's their fault.
It's not what we're doing.
But my contention is we have thepower to make a difference to
(20:34):
radically change the outcomes inhigher education.
But it's hard work and peoplewill be upset about it when you
do it because you're changingthe way we've always done.
So that's the problem.
We're unwilling to change inhigher ed.
You want me to blame the kids?
Oh, they don't study enough tonot committed.
(20:56):
You know, millennials, how, whena bunch of...
I'm not going to do that, I'mnot blaming the students.
I'll quote and I'll give him thecredit retired president of
Valencia College in Florida,Sandy Shugart teach the students
you have not the ones you wishyou had.
I'm tired of hearing people talkabout the good old days with the
students.
(21:16):
There were no good old days.
These are the students.
These are the good old days.
They are too, by the way,Michael, these are the good old
days.
Someday we'll realize that, butwe've got to stop blaming the
students.
These are the students we have.
You want to have a bunch ofgeniuses with straight A's in
1600 on their college boards gowork at Princeton.
Don't work here.
(21:37):
That's not our student body.
Our student body needs more helpand, and we have to be willing
to do it.
And if we go in, which is whatwe do in high read the Royal we,
oh, they're adults now sink orswim.
You've got to do it.
I'm not going to hold his hand.
All of those things, all of thatis deadly to first-generation
(21:59):
college students, to poorstudents, to students who don't
have a lot of confidence tostudents who don't know the
system, that's deadly to themand they do drown and we watch
them drown.
And then we blame them fordrowning, even though we've
never taught them how to swim.
Michael Collins (22:15):
Yeah.
It's such a difficult, um, it'ssuch a difficult picture and
what, the way you paint it.
And it's, it's so tragic becauseif you think about kind of our
investments in, you know,whether or not you think Pell is
great enough, but like, youknow, these, these young people,
you know, kind of taking their,taking their Pell, going to
college, trying to get thatcredential that could have, you
know, kind of lifelong earningsimplications and us not being
(22:38):
able to serve them just it'soverwhelming.
Right.
But the, the failure.
And so the opportunity is justhuge to be able to serve these
students.
And you've done it so well,particularly with, you know, a
population again that I thinkhas struggled African-American
males.
And so really congratulations onthat great work.
I'm wondering if you think thatwe have a moment in time to kind
(22:59):
of disrupt, um, some of thethings that weren't working.
I mean, I'm just random.
Margaret McMenamin (23:04):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Now is the time.
This is it.
You know, I mean, everybody'ssaying it for the last 18
months.
I know you're tired of hearingit, but I'll say it never waste
a good crisis.
You know, never waste a goodcrisis.
This is a tremendous opportunityfor us to make radical changes
in higher ed.
Now we're making them, I, yousee them across everybody, you
(23:26):
know, let's go remote.
We wouldn't go remote.
You think we're going remote forthe students.
Let me tell you, I think we'remaking those radical changes
because certain people wouldrather stay home.
And I'm not going to say whothose certain people are.
But I think everybody on thispodcast knows who I'm talking
about.
They want to stay home in theirpajamas and their slippers, and
they think that's a radicalchange.
(23:47):
Well, remote live is a radicalchange in higher ed.
It's one of the changes thatwill survive this pandemic, but
we should be making otherradical changes in higher ed
that could dramatically improveour student success outcomes.
But it's hard.
It's hard to make these changesby Glenn.
Yes, you've referenced ourchanges.
(24:08):
We rose our black malegraduation rate rose from 5% at
one point.
And right now it's a 28 andchange.
Now that is something peoplesaid was impossible.
I wouldn't believe it.
If I didn't see the numbers,I've had it verified four times
and it's been over a four years,it's gone up.
It's real, but those were hardchanges to make hard things, to
(24:31):
create hard, um, uh,accomplishments.
But they came as a result ofmaking big changes to the way we
interact with our students.
We didn't just hand them theirPell money and say, we'll check
out in three years.
See if you graduate, we calledthem back.
We said, Michael, where are you?
(24:52):
We miss you, Michael, you couldcure cancer.
Michael, come to class, Michaeljoined this club, Michael do
this.
And eventually it caught on itresonated.
It worked, but that was notdoing the same old stuff that
you do in colleges and studentdevelopment that is having a
deliberate plan to help more ofthese compromised students get
(25:13):
across the finish line and itworked, it worked dramatically.
Michael Collins (25:18):
That's great.
It's a great example for it's agreat example and a great
template for, um, for what'spossible.
I love those numbers that youposted and it's so important for
that population and for thecommunity.
And I think it's such animportant message for right now.
I want to stick on this issue ofkind of the moment.
And I'm just, you know, I worrya lot about this moment being
performative.
(25:39):
And I'm just wondering iflessons learned, you know,
through 2020 and 2021, we'vegone through so much the
pandemic and Black lives matter.
You know, you referenced theelections.
I'm just wondering, like in thisgreater moment of awareness of
racial bias in our systems, youknow, how do we, um, what do we
need to do to sustain kind of,um, kind of the changes that are
(26:01):
happening in this moment andinstitutions, um, so that this
isn't like a performative momentthat kind of goes away.
Margaret McMenamin (26:09):
Well, we have a great opportunity and
this is one of the questionswe're wrestling with in every
venue right now.
How do you sustain this now?
We're, we're, we're aware weknow, or we've fixed this, or,
or, or how do we stop us fromsliding backwards?
And this is a, it's an ongoingchallenge for us.
(26:31):
Uh, I believe certainly shiningthe light on the issues and
continuing to shine.
The light on the issues willhelp.
We added, uh, we haveinstitutional priorities at
Union.
Our priorities are, have beenhistorically enrollment, student
success and innovation.
(26:53):
Well, we added DEI and socialjustice to that.
So how we keep the conversationgoing on my campuses, every
meeting we talk about those fourpriorities that's to keep us
focused on all of thosepriorities.
So we talk about it.
What are we doing?
How are we doing it?
What's going on?
Do we have any, uh, any issueshave surfaced any we're going
(27:15):
through a, uh, policy review toidentify any, because we want to
be good.
We want to be the bestinstitution we can be for all of
our community.
So I, I'm not an expert atimplicit bias and things like
that and systemic racism.
So we're actually, I'm having agroup go through policies to
say, is there something in herethat I don't see, or that maybe
(27:37):
somebody like me wouldn'tnotice, but it is an instance
of, of, of a problem orsomething that could facilitate
or lead to something.
I think we have to keep it onthe front burner.
We have to keep talking aboutit.
I had faith in our generation.
I now lecture our students atevery commencement exercise that
I say, and it's everyone.
(27:59):
I do the same one almost everytime.
I say my generation failed.
We thought we were going tosolve these problems for you and
hand to you on a silver platter,a world of people who loved and
respected one another and, andtreated each other with dignity.
I said, we have failed.
We haven't done that, but weneed you to do it.
Now.
(28:19):
I have a lot of faith in thisgeneration.
I'm not one of the critics.
I'm not one of those peoplegoing around saying these damn
millennials or these Gen Zersare terrible.
I believe in them.
I believe they are going to helpto prevent this from falling
under the, going back onto therug and resurfacing 50 years
from now.
They're a different group ofkids.
(28:39):
There's more there appears to bein my view is I see 10,000
students every day, they appearto be much less focused on race
and gender and sexualorientation and more focused on
what are you into I'm into thisand common interests that have
nothing to do with the thingsthat mattered to our parents.
(29:01):
So I'm hopeful that thisgeneration will help, but what
I'm doing at my role, 1.,Graduating more future leaders
of color 2.
Putting more leaders of color in, uh, people of color in
leadership positions so that ourleadership team is reflective of
our community.
(29:21):
And I'll tell you, the lastthing we're doing to try to
sustain this is my chiefacademic officer is working with
our faculty in criminal justiceto convene some meetings with
local law enforcement, about ourcriminal justice curriculum.
The majority of our local lawenforcement are educated at
(29:46):
Union County College.
You could get a ticket here.
It's probably from one of mygraduates.
We believe that if we can haveimpact on that criminal justice
curriculum, that that couldinfluence policing in the
future.
I mean, I'm talking aboutdirectly to George Floyd.
I want it to influence policing.
I, I mean, we have some greatpolice officers and law
(30:07):
enforcement agencies here inUnion County.
And I have some great on mystaff here, retired law
enforcement officers of allraces, you know, everything, and
we want to make things better.
So right now I hear wordMichael, that there's a lower
fewer, many fewer people goingto the police academy and things
(30:28):
like that.
And as you know, everybody'shaving trouble getting good
employees, getting employees atall.
Right now there's an opportunityif we get more good people into
the police academy.
Now in 10 years, 20 years,they're going to be the chiefs
and the captains and thelieutenants who are going to
have a greater influence on theworkings in those law
(30:49):
enforcement agencies, peopleentering the college now as
academic specialists or advisorsare going to be the next deans
and academic officers in thefuture.
So the diversity of the hires wemake today and the preparation
and the philosophy of thosepeople is going to have the
(31:10):
greatest impact as we moveforward.
So as I hire people today, I'mthinking about when I'm in a
nursing home around that cruisearound the world, you know, in
my wheelchair, these are thepeople who are going to be
sustaining what we're trying toput in place now.
And that includes all of thoseDEI initiatives.
(31:31):
So it can't just be, I'm hiringpeople.
Now we think student success isimportant.
I have to also hire people rightnow who understand the
importance of that inclusivitypiece.
I want us to be that Oasis.
It doesn't matter who you are,what color you are, what of the
73 genders you are or whateverit is.
(31:53):
We want you here at Union CountyCollege, and you will have a
place to go here.
If I can hire more people who'swho believe in that Oasis
philosophy, then I can have animpact for generations to come.
At least here,
Michael Collins (32:09):
I can tell you as, as a person of color and as
somebody who's raising a, uh,you know, a 10-year-old old son,
you know, the, the world thatyou describe, you know, kind of
brings my blood pressure down alittle bit.
I love it like a world ofinclusivity, where we are kind
of educating the next generationto accommodate kind of
diversity, equity and inclusion.
(32:30):
We are engaging our lawenforcement and you're, I love
that.
You're thinking through thosesecond, third and fourth order
effects, you know, kind of todaybuilding for that, that future
that we want.
And I love that, um, you know,that, that you are painting that
picture because it's possible.
And, and you know, and I, and Iwant a world that can
accommodate my, my son, you know, uh, I love that, um, that,
(32:55):
that you are on the case.
It's wonderful.
Wonderful to hear.
I've got two more questions foryou.
I know you're busy, but we wantto, um, uh, uh, make the most of
our time.
I'm curious, you do a lot ofthinking about kind of
diversity, equity and inclusion,but I'm wondering, um, you know,
what is the most urgent issue,um, that higher education
leaders need to address, um, todramatically advance diversity,
(33:17):
equity and inclusion that youthink needs more attention?
So there's a lot of things rightnow, but what needs more
attention?
Margaret McMenamin (33:22):
Okay.
Well, I, since you gave me thesequestions ahead of time, I asked
somebody smarter than me aboutthis as a, what do you think it
is?
And they immediately shouted itout.
It's about equity.
It's about figuring out whatdoes that mean?
What does it mean?
So if we have, I'll say 98% ofthe people want to do a good
(33:43):
job.
They do.
They're decent people.
They're not jerks.
They don't want to hurt anybody.
Forget about the 2% who are bad.
People put them over there.
So I want to do right.
I want to be equitable.
I want equity, but what doesthat mean in the classroom?
What does that mean in terms ofpedagogy equity?
What does that mean?
Um, in terms of advising orextra extracurricular activity,
(34:06):
what, how does it ma thatmanifested in every area?
Um, what does it mean in theclassroom?
Are we really in Oasis?
Does that mean how, how willthat be?
How will we know that we did it?
We just did a survey on race andgender and union, and we think
(34:27):
we're doing a good job.
We think we're pretty welcomingplace, but the real question is
how do you measure?
How do we know if we're there?
How do we know?
And that's where, you know, isit, you just have the right
percentage of people in jobs,then you're doing a good job.
Is it, is it when students fillout a survey and say, they felt
(34:48):
welcomed?
There it's a good job.
I don't, I would, we want to doa good job.
We won the award from theAssociation for Community
College Trustees.
And we, we deserved it becauseof our outcomes.
But in terms of the rest ofthis, how are we measuring it?
I like pick things I canmeasure, because I don't want to
(35:11):
BS people.
I don't want to say, yeah, yeah.
We're all into DEI and it all tobe a bunch of baloney, but what
does it, what does it mean andhow is it manifested and what
does it look like for thatinstructor in that classroom?
Michael Collins (35:25):
Yeah.
I love your answer, right?
Because it's concrete and it'smaesurable and it has
implications for what I askedearlier about like, how do you
sustain these things, right.
So measuring kind of impact, butyou also talked about kind of
some of the policy audits you'redoing, right.
And so like policy change andbeing able to measure like,
actually I think does contributeto, um, us sustaining kind of
(35:46):
these efforts past kind of this,this moment of reckoning, if you
will.
So I love that.
I have one final question and I,I can tell a Dr.
McMenamin, this is personal workfor you.
It's personal, it'sprofessional, but it's also
personal.
But so I want to end with this,um, this question, you know, in
what ways do you hope yourinstitution's efforts on
diversity, equity, inclusion?
(36:06):
You know, how do you hope itwill impact your current and
future students?
Margaret McMenamin (36:11):
I know I'm, I'm corny twin sisters.
She calls me captain cornball.
Okay.
But I believe in the totality ofthe talent of the human beings,
everybody on earth.
And I just think we should beincluding everybody because
there's a lot of talent.
And I just hope one day, one ofour community college graduates,
(36:34):
and I was hoping it would be aUnion County College graduate
will go out there and dosomething unbelievably
extraordinary so that it willprovide a direct, more direct
ties to people who understandthat poor kid coming into that
poor community, who looks verydifferent from you and your
(36:55):
family is going to save yourchild's life when they find the
cure for that form of childhoodleukemia.
So, so stop excluding people wholook different from you stop
that.
I was a physical therapy majorat Temple University, and this
part of my education there, Ihad to do human dissection in my
(37:19):
junior year at Temple, in themed school.
And I came from a big family,but we were very modest.
I'd never seen her naked bodybefore and there, they all were
about 80 naked bodies on theslabs.
But Michael.
It was the first time I'd everseen a naked body like that
inside my own, but remarkablething, Michael, once we cut
(37:40):
their skin off, they all lookthe same.
There was not one difference.
It was for the men weredifferent from the women in the
obvious ways when we took theirskin off.
But remarkably the black peoplewere identical to the white
people.
When you took their skin off,you couldn't tell them apart.
So, I mean, I just, I just wouldlove to, you know, uh, to see
(38:01):
this world where we would stopjudging people by how they look.
I would, I would, I mean, I getit.
I have to wear high heels and asuit and fix my hair and all of
those things.
And I know you have to lookreasonably presentables, but
judging people by their skincolor or their ethnicity or
(38:23):
their body size or their genderand all of that.
I just think it's, it's a badthing to do.
And, and, uh, just in terms of,you know, the race issue, I know
that, I mean, I live in acommunity that is very diverse,
but I know we have our racistshere in my community and I'm
just praying for the day that mykids saved the life.
(38:46):
My diverse students save thelives of the bigots in my
community.
That's what I want, I want.
And I want to change them.
I want to change them withgoodness, as opposed to beating
them over the head with a, witha protest on, I want to help
enlighten these folks so thatthey can understand that once we
(39:07):
cut the skin off, we're all thesame, you know, how's that, is
that too preachy?
Michael Collins (39:12):
Uh, no, not at all.
Thank you so much for thisconversation and really for your
leadership, Dr.
McMenamin, um, you know,congratulations on the wonderful
success that you've had at thecollege, and particularly when
your success graduating Africanmale learners.
I think it's just incredible.
It's a great example of thepossibilities.
Um, and I think that, you know,this is, um, the conversation
(39:34):
that all of higher educationneeds to hear.
I want to thank you so much foryour insights that you shared
with the listeners here on thePillars of Change podcast
series, but also justpersonally, thank you.
I, I, um, found energy and, um,in, in our conversation and, um,
(39:54):
you painted a world that Ibelieve in, I want to believe
in, in sometimes, you know, as ablack man in this country, when
you see kind of what's going onin some of the debates going on,
you just scratch your headgoing, like, you know, can this
be happening in my lifetime?
And, uh, you gave us a vision ofseeing past that.
And we are, um, at the same,like, uh, you know, and, and not
(40:17):
to be kind of designing our, ourworld around, you know,
heritable traits that we hadnothing to do with, right.
So I really just appreciate somuch, um, our conversation.
So I want to also thank ourlisteners for joining us.
And, um, if, if you want theCommissionto highlight the
efforts of your institution in afuture podcast, then please
(40:38):
visit M S C H E.org/Pillars ofChange to submit your
suggestion.
And on behalf of the MiddleStates Commissionon on Higher
Education and our guest, thefabulous Dr.
Margaret McMenamin, uh, onMichael Collins saying, thank
you for joining Pillars ofChange.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
[inaudible].
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