February 22, 2025 • 36 mins
Join Lynn Hoffman for this delightful episode with one of the great American songwriters of our generation, Sam Hollander. The list of musicians he has written for includes a who's who, Train, Katy Perry, Weezer, One Direction and many more. Sam is a member of the board of Musicians on Call which this podcast supports.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Music Saved Me. I tell kids all the time whenever
I meete a kid, you know, and it's how do
I get into this business? Bud, I say the same thing.
It's like the look if you ever wake up one
morning and you have a strange fascination with, you know, arugula,
and you think to yourself, God, I could market the
world's greatest arugula. I can make a strain that's like
hybrid arugular or something, and every Whole Foods and Trader
(00:21):
Joe's will be all over it. Go make your damn arugula,
because this is brutal.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Lynn Hoffman, and welcome to the Music Saved Me Podcast,
the podcast where we explore the power of music to
heal and help anyone in need. On this episode, a
brilliant songwriter, producer, and musician who has worked with an
incredible dare I say almost unbelievable roster of stars from
(00:45):
just about every musical genre, ranging from Panic at the Disco,
One Direction, Katie Perry, Billy Idel, Weezer, Blues Traveler, Macklemore,
Train ringo Star. I could probably keep going and then
the podcast would be over and he wouldn't even be
able to talk. He's also a massive supporter of the
incredible organization known as Musicians on Call, which we are
(01:09):
as well. Welcome Sam Hollander, Welcome to music.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
See hey, apologize and advance for any barking dogs or sneezing.
But that's okay. Pollen count, the pollen count is not
working my favorite this hour. But I do believe in
the potential of zertech.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So let's go aga and greatness, which you are? All right, Well,
let's just jump right in, okay, Sam. Do you believe
music and songs have supernatural healing powers for those with mental, physical,
or say emotional problems?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Absolutely. You know I've always, uh, I've always used music
as a form of catharsist for myself, both my own
art and also you know, as a fan growing up.
I mean, you know, as a child, I always felt misunderstood,
as we all do in those years, and so music
was this sort of the soundtrack to the unrequited for me.
(02:00):
So whatever I was spiraling in my psyche, up and
down and up and down, music was the one thing
that elevated me. And you know, I think one of
the what really attracts me to music as a songwriter.
One thing that really dig is the notion that I
can provide sort of uplifting, sort of aspirational stuff that
(02:20):
I really write for myself because I'm just trying to
stitch any broken mechanisms inside of myself, you know. But
at the same time, I do think that if it
reacts and I've you know, maybe altered someone's day the
slightest bit, it's a great job in the world, you know.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Absolutely. Is there a specific litmus test or for example,
when you're writing or producing a song and you're arranging
the music, is there a place where you can tell
that you're going to evoke a certain emotion in someone?
Is that is that the secret sauce? Is there a
secret sauce?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, I think there's some sort of galvanic response that happens.
Right the songs that I think, at least in my
in my life that have h have raised their hands
and sort of done something and maybe actualized in a
shape or form, I would say I always I always
knew that there was something there. I don't think I've
ever really been surprised, And it's sort of hard to
(03:16):
articulate what the what the special sauce is. You're just
there's a feeling in the room when the melody and
the lyric sort of twists their way around a chord
and it just hits and you feel that a motive moment.
I remember this song, this Kidna in banners from London
via Canada or Canada via London. There we go and
(03:37):
you know, he came to the studio and we wrote
a song called someone to You. It's Me. This is
Michael's Me, Michael and Grant. Michael's strange. But what was
so interesting about it is I knew by the time
we landed the chorus that the song was special and
it had the deck stack against it was one of
those songs. This was not gonna be a lay up
new artists, no real backstory to date, blah blah blah.
(04:00):
But there was something about it that just you could
just feel emotively that this was going to just, you know,
elevate someone's daily experience. And that's what we do. You know,
I don't write a lot of dark stuff because truthfully,
the world is as complex and messy as it is.
I don't think I need to be another voice sort
of harping on that. I'd rather just try to, you know,
(04:22):
up put a little bit of a little bit of
positive energy out there. Even I like the sweet and sour,
and sometimes I get my little jabs and my little
you know, steely dan guy. Right. So I grew up
listening to doll Fagan with all the yah, with all
the you know, with all the the little you know,
the little jabs that he was able to work into
songs that were jazzy, but yet the core were so
dark and sort of interesting and funny. I like humor
(04:45):
in my music, but at the same time, it's gotta
you know, I wanted to at the end of the day,
I wanted to, you know, stay somewhat aspirational or something
to that effect.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Well, you know, interesting, speaking of that, what what would
go through your mind during those moments when something that
you were involved with so intimately to create impact someone
in in such a in a positive way or an
emotional way.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Well, when like people, uh slide into my dms, the
youth says, and they dip into my dams. It's invariably
a really beautiful note and it's very sweet, and it's
somebody who was affected and they sort of tell that,
you know, the given narrative, and they tell me how
it affected them, and it's it's incredible, Like you know what,
(05:31):
there there are many jobs that you know, they're they're
all these there are all these incredible jobs and vocations
that bring tons of joy to people, and it's just
nice to know that music can be one of them.
You know, the music can sort of affect the psyche
in that way. And you know, so I'm always very
moved to be upset, honest with you, it's very uh,
it's it's humbling, and it's you know, it just it
(05:53):
makes me want to get up and write in another one.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
You know, in what way do you do you feel
that music gives people hope? And have you ever personally
used music to help yourself through? Say it difficult, Lina?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Did you see what I look like? Right? So? It
was an a handsome guy. No, I was uphill battle
from birth. And I will tell you and you know,
in the Canadian days, in these in my formative years,
I uh, you know, I think I modeled myself ester
sort of a slightly more muscle bound version of John
Cryer as Ducky, you know. And I had the pork
(06:27):
pie hats, and I had vadoras and I had all
these things, and I was a strange character, you know,
who was so lost. And I think the if I
were to find myself through four years of high school
beyond uh, you know, academically challenged, I would say, you know,
it was just one unrequited relationship after another, and you know,
(06:47):
music got me through it. Like I said, music was
that it answered the questions. I felt like every lyricist
before me sort of paved a path. And you know,
I would listen to the torture of or Robert Smith,
or I would listen to, you know, the playfulness of
Tropical Quester Dea La Soul and r Em was my
(07:08):
favorite band of all, and I didn't even know what
he was saying, but it just I liked the word
play and it sounded interesting. But I would play almost
it was almost like Jenga lyrically, right, so it is
where you what's the one where you mad lips, mad lips.
It's almost like madlips right where. I would take types
of lyrics I had no idea was saying, so I
would just figure out and just guess them. To me,
they were all torture. Bob Mould Hohoscredoo was probably my
(07:30):
favorite lyricist in high school was probably between Fagan and
Mold and I think both they were great. They were great.
They were great at chronicling the teen experience and sort
of growing up and coming of age and cities and
things like that, and you know it, so I would say,
you know, that got me through and I whenever I
(07:50):
meet somebody who was sort of is so embedded in
my mental playlist. I fanboy at such a level because
I just can't believe that these pay the way and
I'm just lucky to have hitched on the bandwagon. It's awesome,
the best.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So what do you think the world would look like
without music? I know that's a well big question.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What do the kids call them NPCs? You know, not
like non playing character or whatever. It's a video game
term about being very basic. The world would be very basic.
It's like it's the color and it's the colorful characters
and you know, look, music to me was the original
short form content, right. It was just three minutes of perfection.
(08:33):
I was never a prog guy, right because prog came
along and with these songs are twenty five minutes long.
You know, I wanted to do anything to do with
this let's let's whack it down and make it you know,
two minutes and forty seconds of July. But I don't.
I just I can't envision it because it's been embedded
in my DNA since I was three. When I, you know,
I was listening to Blossom Deary records with my mom.
(08:55):
She was a big Blossom Deary fan, and we would
sit and listen to these like vocal jazz records. That
was three or four, and I just loved what was
going on melodically, Gateway to Magic by Pilot, you know,
better known as the Ozembic song. No, it's obviously that's
where people really it's really caught on a magical single.
But that was the first single I ever dug, and
I grew up on all this k Tel stuff and
(09:16):
then that morphed into all these genres and they're all,
you know, I just can't imagine life without them. I mean,
you know, the first thing I do when I get
in the car is turn on Serious. The first thing
I do, you know or Z one hundred? My man
Maxwell like that? Shat uh, my man Maxwell. He gave
me a hug. It's very sweet guy, very sweet.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
When you were younger or older?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Oh, no, like four days ago.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Are you sure you're not also a comedian on the side.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Is that a part of writing is that you have
really good timing?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
No matter what, it's not me, it's the decongestent.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
All right, that's rights zertech. How did you first become
associated with the fine folks at Musicians on Call? And
if you wouldn't mind indulging us on what it was
like witnessing firsthand being involved.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
With Well, it's funny. I go back to the early
days of the organization because I was started by Victuari
and Michael Solomon, who were people unknown socially since we
were all in our twenties together, mid twenties. I remember
when they launched, and you know, it's a very kooky story.
I loved their mission. I support it completely, but I
(10:31):
wasn't necessarily involved boots on on the ground. And then
when my father was in his last days, he was
at Mount sign I in the cancer word, and I
went to visit him one day and I heard an
acoustic guitar in the next room, and I peeked around
the corner and there was a man who was easily
and octagenarian to put it mildly strumming acoustic, and it
(10:54):
looked like one of these old Greenwich village folkcats that
you see in documentaries, you know. And he was playing
for a woman who had to be nine the thing.
And when he finished, he walked down the hall and
I said, you know, I'm so sorry to bother you,
but uh, what's your story? Are you related or whatever?
And he said no, he said, I'm with the charity
musicians on call. And I had chills because I really
felt that that moment had just been completely placed there
(11:17):
from some weird divine spirit. It just didn't make it.
It just was so one. It was. It was a
one in a million moments. So I instantly got involved,
and I got on the advisory board and I'm on
the board of directors. And look, you know, uh, we
visited patients with my Christmas band, the Band of Merrymakers,
and we performed at hospitals on both coasts. We wrote
original songs with kids and it's it's the heaviest work
(11:40):
I've ever done. Nothing competes with it. It's uh, it's a
labor of love. And there, you know, when you talk
about how music impacts people, it's the most powerful thing
in the world. You can see it just manages stress
and alleviating pain and improving blood pressure and all these
it's just scientific information. You just know it. It's true. Music,
you know, is therapeutic, and so to play a role
(12:02):
in that is it's incredible, absolutely incredible. I absolutely adore
the organization and top to bottom also probably the nicest
people I've ever worked with an a capacity. If Record
Labels had the energy of MOC, we'd be in to
be a better world.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So it's there there. We love them and we're so
grateful that they're a part of our world because it
just makes me feel like, although I can't do what
you do, at least I can talk about it and
spread the word.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Look, then the truth is, no one really needs to
see me perform, right, It's like my charm is behind
a curtain. But if my words and you know, we
can sing Christmas songs and do things like that, and
if I can help with awareness and I can get
my friends to play at Christmas show, et cetera, it's really, uh,
I don't know. I feel like I feel like I'm
(12:54):
doing I'm doing the right thing. Yeah, you want, I'm
paying something forward. That, you know, I'm proud. It's great.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Besides the fact learning that you were babysat for a
short amount of time by Andy Warhol, which obviously is
a story for another time. I also read that your
uncle was a famous American poet and literary critic named
John Hollander, and I read that you once said that
you didn't often connect with him when you were growing up.
(13:23):
And it seems strange to me, because you would think
writing would be hereditary and that everyone would just automatically
know having an uncle like that, Did you ever connect
with him? And if so, was music the connector eventually?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Uh? No, it was Yankee baseball?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But uh oh interesting, Yeah, you know, John was a
you know, I came from a very strange family pictures
sort of the royal tantembaumbs or something to that effect,
where you know, my dad was an incredible modern dancer
with those Ala Loane professional at eighteen and then went
back to school architect with Philip Johnson, did all this
mid century modern stuff, and then a professor for the
(13:58):
rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Mom working with Warhol and writing for Interview magazine. She's
the home first and I believe only female sports writer
ever for Interview magazine because in the midst of some
sort of psychotic breakdown, she said, I want to write
about sports and the psychology behind sports because I just
don't get this. And I think Gandy was puzzled, but
let her run with it. So that was neat. And
you know, everyone in my family had a realer We
(14:22):
all had artistic bents of different sorts, you know, And
you know with John, I mean John was you know,
my parents were so heady, my uncle was so hetty,
and it was sometimes hard to connect with him because,
like I said, I was so massively adhd in a
time of the eighties when we didn't know what that was.
It was so you were just deemed a colossal screw up.
And what happens with that, of course, it's a self
(14:43):
defeating prophecy, right you start to believe I become it,
I manifested. You want to screw up, I'll be as
screw up. So graduate at the bottom of my high
school three colleges and two semesters, which I still believe
is very hard to pull off. Yeah, that's a flex
you know, and I just, uh, it was, uh so
it would be it was very hard to connect on
any aesthetic level with these people who were just so
(15:05):
beyond me at that age. But as time went on,
I think, you know, I I really I like to
I think I earned some real respect in my family,
and you know, I think the number one thing was
my tenacity. You know, I just I wanted it so bad.
I wanted to write songs that that entered some semblance
of a zeitgeist. Right. I just wanted to hear a
song in a movie, or hear it in a stadium,
(15:27):
or hear it on the radio, because I was completely
raised on radios one, so I just wanted to hear
these uh. I wanted to hear these songs. And I
that that was I think the I think the one
redeeming character trait that I have because some stink, but
one I would say was I'm really Uh, I do
put the work in and I'm very passionate about my art,
(15:49):
and I think in my family, I think that's pretty respected.
So it was neat and didn't.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Didn't so much in the Eagles call him up and
he needed to consult with you about it.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, in the last years of my life, my own
got an email from Don Henley and Don Henley had
set one of his poems to music, and they put
it on the hell Freeze Over record. I believe, oh
that little record, Yeah, yeah, is that whatever? Whatever? The
Walmart was in two thousand and seven, and you know,
the record did two three million copies. Whatever. I had
(16:18):
never I was just about to have my first hit
with the Gym Class Heroes, and I'm finally like feeling
like I've done it. And my uncle, who at that
time was in his eighties, is on a bigger record
and never written, not a record before, so you know,
it's you know, I equate the music business with waking
(16:39):
up every single morning walking outside picture you're on you know,
Seventh Avenue South, any downtown, you walk outside of your building,
you get hit by a cab every single day for
thirty years, and every single day you have to wake
up and dust yourself off and go create art. Because
that's what it's like. I just say, you know, the
fear I have when I wake up in the morning
(16:59):
of just looking at you for something falling through or
something being rejected, et cetera. It can really do a
damage to your morale. So I would say, yeah, I'm
proudest of the fact that I can still get up
every single day. And now you know I'm geriatric, but
I still got it.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Let's not go that far. We're born in the nine Well,
you've put together a book called I Love the title
of your book twenty one hit wonder, Flopping my way
to the top of the charts, adventures and songwriting. Can
you explain a little bit about what one would read
when they open the pages of the book?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I can, I can. You know, I wrote this book
because first of all, it was completing what I felt
at the beginning on the onset, I felt like I
was competing, completing my dad's journey. There was a part
there was there was a hole in his life where
he to me at least, which then I resolved towards
(18:03):
the end of the book. But you know, he began
writing a book when I was seven, and he never
finished it. Forty years later he passed and he would
just come back to it and then put it down.
And you know, it was it was nothing that I
could ever stitch together. And it gutted me, to be
honest with you, I was absolutely crushed, because you know,
he was this brilliant man. I felt like I felt
(18:23):
like the world never really got to know, you know,
the extent of his genius. And so that's why I started,
because I felt for my daughter. You know, I have
one kid, and you know, she's musical, and I felt,
you know, she should really understand a little bit of
the family backstory and also what what hard work is
and more appropriately, what failure is, because you know, I
(18:47):
when you read the names of the people I've collaborated with,
there's some of these songs. It's very moving for me.
But it all happened after the age of thirty five,
and up to thirty five, I'm bang grupting every label
in the business. We went flop after flop after flop,
and that gets lost. And what happens is what I've
learned about in entertainment. You know, it's funny come tight
(19:10):
with Chuck D and great great guy, Public Enemy and
Chuck D. You know he knows more daybuddy. You know,
the industry just buries carcasses of failure. Right. We don't
talk about these things. Right, So whenever I read a
puff piece, and like Chuck, Chuck really reads entertainment books,
(19:30):
which I thought was fascinating because I do too. And
I've always felt like maybe I'm living myself. But you know,
there's nothing about you know, eighteen seventies, you know Prague
that I can get through my adhd is that's severe, Lenn.
So I have to get through these entertainment homes. And
one thing I'd say is they're all a humble brag.
Every book I read is a humble brag that tends
(19:51):
to be like a couple of moments of duress and failure.
Maybe one you overcame one thing and then suddenly it's like, oh,
in surprise, and then well, let's spike the ball the
next two hundred fifty pages. And what I wanted to
do was really harp on all these records that I made.
I mean, the first six albums that I produced for
artists didn't get released. One came out, the six came
(20:15):
out in September eleventh, two thousand and one, and ended
a career right there. But I ruined so many people's careers.
And the truth is I really played a massive role
in it in terms of just and what I excavate
these projects and talk about my role. It's not I'm
not blaming people or blaming the arts of the labels
or anything. It's really you know, judgment calls that I
made and missed one, and that's what I wanted to
(20:36):
write about. Make it just give people a little bit
of a manual on how do you survive something where
the deck is decked against you every day of the
week for decades. And that's what I did. And I
just felt like I felt like, you know, in this
new generation of kids who are gonna have to compete
with AI, which is going to take such a chunk
out of the marketplace. And you know, and the fact
(20:59):
that the democra reization music, everybody has the tools to
make their meeting. Everyone has a recording studio in their house.
That think about that. When I was a kid, Neil
Minsky lived in Pound Ridge and he had a four
track and he was the coolest kid in the world.
He had a four track. I've never seen anything like it. Like,
no one had gear. You know, Now everybody can do
it on their laptop. It's built in garage band comes
(21:19):
to the laptop. You know, these kids are working on
logic at the age of eight nine, so it's so
competitive now. And then you have to hit the algorithm
of TikTok and all these other things to even be heard,
so we're in These are truly crazy days. So the
one thing is I just wanted to sort of give
a little bit of a blueprint for anybody who's like
me out there, who is still struggling to figure out
(21:41):
and just understand that it will happen. But you have
to stick it out and you gotta you really do
have to put the work in.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So true and so lost today on just about everyone.
So definitely welcome, welcome inform it and if they're willing
to put in the time to listen. But many artists
I've interviewed through the years have said that they wrote
the hit song that they really got well known for.
They wrote for themselves, arranged for themselves what they liked,
(22:09):
what they wanted to hear, and then we're shocked to
find that it actually resonated with so many people. Is
that still something that happens today, do you think?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Well? Truthfully, I'm shape shifting and with every artist that
I collaborate with because I'm trying to avoid instilling my
will on them. Instead, I'm trying my best to be
a coach, a guide, you know, I'm trying to get
them over the top and work. Yes, I work from
(22:39):
there and just sort of trying to figure out where
they're at in the process. You know, I work with
some people who are incredibly lyrical and so they don't
need me in that end of it, and that's really
my specialty is I'm pretty quick with a pen. But
then you know what, then then I instantly read the
room and I shift over to where the melodies sit
and making sure the melodies are working and blah blah
blah blah blah, making sure that conceptually tight. Other writers
(23:02):
aren't particularly lyrical, or I'm getting them on a day
that they're just burnt out, they have nothing, but they
want to give it a go. And I'm coming in
the room with two or three completely finished, fleshed out
ideas before I didn't sit down with them, and I
sing them to the artist because you know, I'm going
to shoot my shot anyway I can. And that's landed
some really successful songs too. There's no rhyme or reason
(23:24):
to it. But the one thing I would say is
these songs aren't written for me necessarily. There's inside jokes. Sure,
you know they're you know, high hopes, panga disco. You
know those verses are I wrote the verses on that song,
and there's great co writers on that song across the board.
Everybody did a great job. But you know, I wrote
the verses and the verses in that song where in
(23:46):
my head I made a through line between a dialogue
that I have with my mom when I was very young,
and then the second verse is me sort of giving
my same interpretation of that dollar to my daughter or
she was coming up and so so I tried to
connect the generational divide because they never got to know
each other. My mom passed, my daughter was so young,
so I thought this was a way to sort of,
(24:07):
you know, bring them together forever, and that that's why
I wrote that so song, it's pretty heavy for me.
And even though you hear it in sort of like
this bombastic, sort of you know, bouncy number, at the
core of it, I'd like to think there's a lot
of heart because the message is very real.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
So well, I have to know what went through your
mind when you weren't going to write necessarily a song
with Ringo Star a Beatle, but you were going to
pitch being a co writer with him. How does one
even feel when they're ringing the doorbell at Ringo Star's
house and you have to go in and make a
(24:42):
pitch that he's going to work with you.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
So I'll go through. I'd love it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I'd love to tell you that there was a high
degree of intimidation. But the strangest attribute I have beyond
tenacity is and I think this, this is formed when
I'm a kid, with being around Warhole and these worlds
and you know, and spending my you know, working with
(25:08):
Carol King in my twenties who really mentored me and
helped me out, and Nile Rogers and Paul Williams and
all these people who were these incredible beacons for me
and sort of just guided my journey. I I'm rarely intimidated,
and I think that's probably my greatest skill. It doesn't
really matter who I walk in a room with. But
I'm hard to shake. And I always say I'm sort
(25:29):
of like something that crawls on your shower curtain. Try
to wash it down, but it just it just doesn't
it doesn't happen. I sort of stick. I'll stick it out.
So I would say with Ringo, I'm excited, sure, massively
excited everything you know, I mean chills, But the flip
side was very focused and he grilled me. He grilled me,
(25:49):
and he was tough, and he's very snarky, very funny,
so witty, he's he's an incredible guy.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And was your heart being out of your chest or
you were fine?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
You were?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
You were?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I was okay, I was okay. I was more star
struck by you Lynn. Come on. So you know Ringo
is so twenty twenty three, but I uh no, I
I have to tell you, I uh I had a
very measured take on it. I was excited. But the
flip side was I was really hyper focused on having
a song with Ringo because I had done songs with
(26:22):
Mike g Love and the Beach Boys sing them live,
and I have to say to be able to say
I did something in the orbit of the Beach Boys
and the Beatles, I'll take it. Yeah, you know, pretty cool,
And so it was really about dialing it in. And
you know, since then, I think I've done five songs
of Ringos something like that, and it's always a blast.
And he is this this beautiful fella who is in
(26:43):
better physical shape than I am. And it's heartbreaking to
watch because he's like bouncing up and down while I'm
sort of slump slumped in the chair. So yeah, a
little bueler sir tech sech search up buler BEUTLERU, guys,
the guy's super talented.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Well spanning your successful career, which is is pretty amazing.
Is there one kis mid moment that stands out to
you the most working with someone and if you could
share what that is, I know you get that probably
a lot. But in the song making process that you were.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Well, I think the song that I it's the song
that I have a weird, very very very deep emotional
connection to is handclap by Fits in the Tantrums and
it's truly rooted in the fact of tenacity. You know.
I was a huge fan of the EP when they
(27:40):
first dropped their first EP, and I thought money Grabber
was the coolest thing ever. And you know, I googled them,
I google fits and I realized we were born a
couple months apart and just like us, like our generational
connection was so deep. And I could tell that he
was referencing you know, ABC and Smoky things like all
these you know, records of the time, you know, and
(28:03):
I felt like I've ever had a chance to get
in a room with him I would I would hit
it out of the park. And it took seven years
between meeting him the first time to finally getting a session,
and I had to work angles. And I have to
say my buddy Kevin griff and one of my best friends,
who's a better than Ezra. He made the connection, he
said because Fits sang on our band of Merrymaker's Christmas record,
(28:25):
and I when in five minutes with Fits, I knew
I was going to write a hit. I felt it.
I felt like we would write something very special together
because we just there was such a shared affinity, but
yet there were slight there were just like divergent paths
musically that felt would be great. Like he's more of
a pop guy. I would say, I'm more of like
a disco or soul guy. And so we met in
(28:47):
the middle and fused this strange song together. And it's
a very strange song, but it's that one means the
most to me because I really like I fought for it,
and I don't know, for some reason, I think it
just lives on more than the rest of the stuff.
It feels like the one that I hear it every day,
and that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
What do you most proud of Sam regarding your music
and your legacy.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I'm proudest to the fact that I was able to
spend my life making noise and there were so few
other lanes for me as a human, and I didn't
have any other interests. You know. I tell kids all
the time. Whenever I meet a kid, you know, and
they say, oh, how do I get into this business? Bubbah,
I say the same thing. It's like, Look, if you
(29:29):
ever wake up one morning and you have a strange
fascination with, you know, arugula, and you think to yourself, God,
I could market the world's greatest arugula. I can make
a strain that's like hybrid arugular or something, and every
Whole Foods and Trader Joe's will be all over it.
Go make your damn arugula. Because this is brutal, and
to do this with your life is uh. There's a
(29:51):
level of masochism that people could never understand it. And
so the fact that I survived thus far and I've
been doing it this long and I am I still
am excited every single day I wake up and you know,
I'm like this weird, stunted man child. I'm like you know,
I just every day, I just wake up and there's
(30:14):
an idea and it's sort of emanating. I'm trying to
figure out how to get it out of my head.
And it's a puzzle. And these are like these strange puzzles.
And I go for tons of walks in my town.
People see me walking everywhere, and I think it's a
little bit of a NodD visual, but you know, truly,
I'm in my head all day long, just trying to
crack the puzzle and put it down on paper. And
if it never sees the lad to day, it's fine,
(30:35):
but I have to get it out. And the fact
that I was given the luxury to do this for
this many years is it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
What would you tell someone one piece of advice of
all the great advice in sage wisdom that you've accumulated
in this.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I'll tell you I was blessed. I'm sure you were too.
I can hear in your voice. I was blessed with
supportive parents, right. I had parents and an infrastructure around
me of people who were cheering for me as a human.
And I was encouraged to color outside the lines. And
I just feel like a lot of people who pack
(31:14):
it in early don't have that support system. And it
can be as simple as finishing a song and playing
it for your friends and they diss it and or
they just look away unenthused and it's soul crushing, right.
Or you tell your parents you want to get it
into the music business entertainment industry, and the look of
(31:36):
horror on their faces because they don't understand how you
won't be homeless. You know. The one thing I would
say is if I could do it, anybody can do it.
And I started out with minimal skills, like a creative
kid with very suspect skills, and I put in the
ten thousand hours, the glad Welly and hours, and I
(31:58):
just kept going and going and going and harnessing and
changing and changing the way I approached my work and
changing genres and trying to find out where I fit
into the musical landscape. And I believe anybody can do it.
I just think you have to silence negative voices and
just have a singular focus on the fact that you
(32:19):
might just be great at something and you got to
you got to play it through.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
So choose optimism that will that will get you through
any most everything basic.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, it's like, I don't want to sound like an
Up with People record, but it's, uh, it's just choose.
I'm such a glass half empty person with every but
everything right in terms of I'm watching the Knicks last
night and I'm thinking to myself, there's zero way that
win this game. I'm just exasperating. I'm about to turn
the channel and one of the greatest comebacks I've ever saying,
I've always been that guy. I'm very negative. I think
(32:50):
it's like very Jewish, self deprecating and just sort of
having just be self aware enough to know that the
movie usually ends bad. The flip side is pressed that
with your art, with your art, believe that you can
do it, and you can that.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I've never heard that spin that you just put on
that that was just amazing because I'm thinking to myself,
where is this going? I mean, if he's negative, which
I totally, I mean, this is the plight of my
daily routine. It's just can you just see.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
The positive side of it?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I do, But with everything else, pure optimism, everything that
you want to know and learn, it's like one hundred
percent optimistic.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I mean, I'm just also another thing that's really important
is stay in your generation. You know, I think about
my mom, who was probably the sharpest cat I ever knew. Right,
my mom was freakishly bright. But my mom had a
fascination with Victorian era, you know, England, and I really
(33:49):
think she wanted to live in Victorian era England. And
I think she was crestfallen that that wasn't going to happen.
And she was very late to the internet, right, she
was very late to cell phones and all these things
before she passed. You know, I've always I understood it
and I got it. But the flip side was my
tact is I'm want to stay up on things and
(34:11):
I want to be on top of it. I'm taking
an AI class this summer just to understand how people
think and how it's going to impact, you know, creativity,
et cetera, because I just I don't want to feel irrelevant,
you know, I want to know that there are ways
to implement tools and make great art any and as
it evolves. And I think AI in our lifetime outside
(34:31):
of the Internet, is the craziest thing we've ever encountered.
I don't I think there are people who just don't
understand what we're about to see and I'm sure there's
a lot of negative with it, but there is some
positive too.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
So just on that note, can I ask you one
more question? Because I know I'm already overstaying my welcome
coers The Beatles McCartney putting out the new song with
Lennon on it through the advances of AI, How did
you feel about that?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Just curious once again, But you know, I'm not a purist.
I feel like, you know, I've heard a lot of
songs recently of older artists who I feel like are
using AI to you know, come up with something new
and sort of reinvigorate it. I can kind of hear
through it sometimes, and you know what, if it brings
people joy? Who am I to? Who am I to
(35:19):
rip it down? It's like, you know, I just I
just think it's crazy that we have these you know,
these uh, the abilities to do this, and the software
I've been messing around with. It's insane. I enter in
lyric prompts and very detailed lyric sheets and what comes
out might be better than my melodic writing, and it
(35:41):
eats me a little bit. But the flip side is
I'm like, WHOA, that's pretty good. All right, so I
can from this now, yeah, maybe exactly. That was six
seconds so straight, so it's evolving out of a speed
of it. I've never seen aything like it, but that
doesn't mean it's a negative to me. It just feels like,
you know, utilize it as a strength. People were scared,
you know, drummers were scared of drum machines. Well you
(36:03):
know what, people still record drummers. We've seen all of
this and sure, this is crazier and the capabilities are endless,
but I don't know, learn learn from it.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Don't hide good advice, very good advice. Thanks Sam, thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Thank you seriously, and anything you need, I'm here. But
it hit me up. Okay, feel better, Thank you,
Music Saved Me. I tell kids all the time whenever
I meete a kid, you know, and it's how do
I get into this business? Bud, I say the same thing.
It's like the look if you ever wake up one
morning and you have a strange fascination with, you know, arugula,
and you think to yourself, God, I could market the
world's greatest arugula. I can make a strain that's like
hybrid arugular or something, and every Whole Foods and Trader
(00:21):
Joe's will be all over it. Go make your damn arugula,
because this is brutal.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Lynn Hoffman, and welcome to the Music Saved Me Podcast,
the podcast where we explore the power of music to
heal and help anyone in need. On this episode, a
brilliant songwriter, producer, and musician who has worked with an
incredible dare I say almost unbelievable roster of stars from
(00:45):
just about every musical genre, ranging from Panic at the Disco,
One Direction, Katie Perry, Billy Idel, Weezer, Blues Traveler, Macklemore,
Train ringo Star. I could probably keep going and then
the podcast would be over and he wouldn't even be
able to talk. He's also a massive supporter of the
incredible organization known as Musicians on Call, which we are
(01:09):
as well. Welcome Sam Hollander, Welcome to music.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
See hey, apologize and advance for any barking dogs or sneezing.
But that's okay. Pollen count, the pollen count is not
working my favorite this hour. But I do believe in
the potential of zertech.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So let's go aga and greatness, which you are? All right, Well,
let's just jump right in, okay, Sam. Do you believe
music and songs have supernatural healing powers for those with mental, physical,
or say emotional problems?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Absolutely. You know I've always, uh, I've always used music
as a form of catharsist for myself, both my own
art and also you know, as a fan growing up.
I mean, you know, as a child, I always felt misunderstood,
as we all do in those years, and so music
was this sort of the soundtrack to the unrequited for me.
(02:00):
So whatever I was spiraling in my psyche, up and
down and up and down, music was the one thing
that elevated me. And you know, I think one of
the what really attracts me to music as a songwriter.
One thing that really dig is the notion that I
can provide sort of uplifting, sort of aspirational stuff that
(02:20):
I really write for myself because I'm just trying to
stitch any broken mechanisms inside of myself, you know. But
at the same time, I do think that if it
reacts and I've you know, maybe altered someone's day the
slightest bit, it's a great job in the world, you know.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Absolutely. Is there a specific litmus test or for example,
when you're writing or producing a song and you're arranging
the music, is there a place where you can tell
that you're going to evoke a certain emotion in someone?
Is that is that the secret sauce? Is there a
secret sauce?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, I think there's some sort of galvanic response that happens.
Right the songs that I think, at least in my
in my life that have h have raised their hands
and sort of done something and maybe actualized in a
shape or form, I would say I always I always
knew that there was something there. I don't think I've
ever really been surprised, And it's sort of hard to
(03:16):
articulate what the what the special sauce is. You're just
there's a feeling in the room when the melody and
the lyric sort of twists their way around a chord
and it just hits and you feel that a motive moment.
I remember this song, this Kidna in banners from London
via Canada or Canada via London. There we go and
(03:37):
you know, he came to the studio and we wrote
a song called someone to You. It's Me. This is
Michael's Me, Michael and Grant. Michael's strange. But what was
so interesting about it is I knew by the time
we landed the chorus that the song was special and
it had the deck stack against it was one of
those songs. This was not gonna be a lay up
new artists, no real backstory to date, blah blah blah.
(04:00):
But there was something about it that just you could
just feel emotively that this was going to just, you know,
elevate someone's daily experience. And that's what we do. You know,
I don't write a lot of dark stuff because truthfully,
the world is as complex and messy as it is.
I don't think I need to be another voice sort
of harping on that. I'd rather just try to, you know,
(04:22):
up put a little bit of a little bit of
positive energy out there. Even I like the sweet and sour,
and sometimes I get my little jabs and my little
you know, steely dan guy. Right. So I grew up
listening to doll Fagan with all the yah, with all
the you know, with all the the little you know,
the little jabs that he was able to work into
songs that were jazzy, but yet the core were so
dark and sort of interesting and funny. I like humor
(04:45):
in my music, but at the same time, it's gotta
you know, I wanted to at the end of the day,
I wanted to, you know, stay somewhat aspirational or something
to that effect.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Well, you know, interesting, speaking of that, what what would
go through your mind during those moments when something that
you were involved with so intimately to create impact someone
in in such a in a positive way or an
emotional way.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Well, when like people, uh slide into my dms, the
youth says, and they dip into my dams. It's invariably
a really beautiful note and it's very sweet, and it's
somebody who was affected and they sort of tell that,
you know, the given narrative, and they tell me how
it affected them, and it's it's incredible, Like you know what,
(05:31):
there there are many jobs that you know, they're they're
all these there are all these incredible jobs and vocations
that bring tons of joy to people, and it's just
nice to know that music can be one of them.
You know, the music can sort of affect the psyche
in that way. And you know, so I'm always very
moved to be upset, honest with you, it's very uh,
it's it's humbling, and it's you know, it just it
(05:53):
makes me want to get up and write in another one.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
You know, in what way do you do you feel
that music gives people hope? And have you ever personally
used music to help yourself through? Say it difficult, Lina?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Did you see what I look like? Right? So? It
was an a handsome guy. No, I was uphill battle
from birth. And I will tell you and you know,
in the Canadian days, in these in my formative years,
I uh, you know, I think I modeled myself ester
sort of a slightly more muscle bound version of John
Cryer as Ducky, you know. And I had the pork
(06:27):
pie hats, and I had vadoras and I had all
these things, and I was a strange character, you know,
who was so lost. And I think the if I
were to find myself through four years of high school
beyond uh, you know, academically challenged, I would say, you know,
it was just one unrequited relationship after another, and you know,
(06:47):
music got me through it. Like I said, music was
that it answered the questions. I felt like every lyricist
before me sort of paved a path. And you know,
I would listen to the torture of or Robert Smith,
or I would listen to, you know, the playfulness of
Tropical Quester Dea La Soul and r Em was my
(07:08):
favorite band of all, and I didn't even know what
he was saying, but it just I liked the word
play and it sounded interesting. But I would play almost
it was almost like Jenga lyrically, right, so it is
where you what's the one where you mad lips, mad lips.
It's almost like madlips right where. I would take types
of lyrics I had no idea was saying, so I
would just figure out and just guess them. To me,
they were all torture. Bob Mould Hohoscredoo was probably my
(07:30):
favorite lyricist in high school was probably between Fagan and
Mold and I think both they were great. They were great.
They were great at chronicling the teen experience and sort
of growing up and coming of age and cities and
things like that, and you know it, so I would say,
you know, that got me through and I whenever I
(07:50):
meet somebody who was sort of is so embedded in
my mental playlist. I fanboy at such a level because
I just can't believe that these pay the way and
I'm just lucky to have hitched on the bandwagon. It's awesome,
the best.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So what do you think the world would look like
without music? I know that's a well big question.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What do the kids call them NPCs? You know, not
like non playing character or whatever. It's a video game
term about being very basic. The world would be very basic.
It's like it's the color and it's the colorful characters
and you know, look, music to me was the original
short form content, right. It was just three minutes of perfection.
(08:33):
I was never a prog guy, right because prog came
along and with these songs are twenty five minutes long.
You know, I wanted to do anything to do with
this let's let's whack it down and make it you know,
two minutes and forty seconds of July. But I don't.
I just I can't envision it because it's been embedded
in my DNA since I was three. When I, you know,
I was listening to Blossom Deary records with my mom.
(08:55):
She was a big Blossom Deary fan, and we would
sit and listen to these like vocal jazz records. That
was three or four, and I just loved what was
going on melodically, Gateway to Magic by Pilot, you know,
better known as the Ozembic song. No, it's obviously that's
where people really it's really caught on a magical single.
But that was the first single I ever dug, and
I grew up on all this k Tel stuff and
(09:16):
then that morphed into all these genres and they're all,
you know, I just can't imagine life without them. I mean,
you know, the first thing I do when I get
in the car is turn on Serious. The first thing
I do, you know or Z one hundred? My man
Maxwell like that? Shat uh, my man Maxwell. He gave
me a hug. It's very sweet guy, very sweet.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
When you were younger or older?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Oh, no, like four days ago.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Are you sure you're not also a comedian on the side.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Is that a part of writing is that you have
really good timing?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
No matter what, it's not me, it's the decongestent.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
All right, that's rights zertech. How did you first become
associated with the fine folks at Musicians on Call? And
if you wouldn't mind indulging us on what it was
like witnessing firsthand being involved.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
With Well, it's funny. I go back to the early
days of the organization because I was started by Victuari
and Michael Solomon, who were people unknown socially since we
were all in our twenties together, mid twenties. I remember
when they launched, and you know, it's a very kooky story.
I loved their mission. I support it completely, but I
(10:31):
wasn't necessarily involved boots on on the ground. And then
when my father was in his last days, he was
at Mount sign I in the cancer word, and I
went to visit him one day and I heard an
acoustic guitar in the next room, and I peeked around
the corner and there was a man who was easily
and octagenarian to put it mildly strumming acoustic, and it
(10:54):
looked like one of these old Greenwich village folkcats that
you see in documentaries, you know. And he was playing
for a woman who had to be nine the thing.
And when he finished, he walked down the hall and
I said, you know, I'm so sorry to bother you,
but uh, what's your story? Are you related or whatever?
And he said no, he said, I'm with the charity
musicians on call. And I had chills because I really
felt that that moment had just been completely placed there
(11:17):
from some weird divine spirit. It just didn't make it.
It just was so one. It was. It was a
one in a million moments. So I instantly got involved,
and I got on the advisory board and I'm on
the board of directors. And look, you know, uh, we
visited patients with my Christmas band, the Band of Merrymakers,
and we performed at hospitals on both coasts. We wrote
original songs with kids and it's it's the heaviest work
(11:40):
I've ever done. Nothing competes with it. It's uh, it's a
labor of love. And there, you know, when you talk
about how music impacts people, it's the most powerful thing
in the world. You can see it just manages stress
and alleviating pain and improving blood pressure and all these
it's just scientific information. You just know it. It's true. Music,
you know, is therapeutic, and so to play a role
(12:02):
in that is it's incredible, absolutely incredible. I absolutely adore
the organization and top to bottom also probably the nicest
people I've ever worked with an a capacity. If Record
Labels had the energy of MOC, we'd be in to
be a better world.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So it's there there. We love them and we're so
grateful that they're a part of our world because it
just makes me feel like, although I can't do what
you do, at least I can talk about it and
spread the word.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Look, then the truth is, no one really needs to
see me perform, right, It's like my charm is behind
a curtain. But if my words and you know, we
can sing Christmas songs and do things like that, and
if I can help with awareness and I can get
my friends to play at Christmas show, et cetera, it's really, uh,
I don't know. I feel like I feel like I'm
(12:54):
doing I'm doing the right thing. Yeah, you want, I'm
paying something forward. That, you know, I'm proud. It's great.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Besides the fact learning that you were babysat for a
short amount of time by Andy Warhol, which obviously is
a story for another time. I also read that your
uncle was a famous American poet and literary critic named
John Hollander, and I read that you once said that
you didn't often connect with him when you were growing up.
(13:23):
And it seems strange to me, because you would think
writing would be hereditary and that everyone would just automatically
know having an uncle like that, Did you ever connect
with him? And if so, was music the connector eventually?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Uh? No, it was Yankee baseball?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But uh oh interesting, Yeah, you know, John was a
you know, I came from a very strange family pictures
sort of the royal tantembaumbs or something to that effect,
where you know, my dad was an incredible modern dancer
with those Ala Loane professional at eighteen and then went
back to school architect with Philip Johnson, did all this
mid century modern stuff, and then a professor for the
(13:58):
rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Mom working with Warhol and writing for Interview magazine. She's
the home first and I believe only female sports writer
ever for Interview magazine because in the midst of some
sort of psychotic breakdown, she said, I want to write
about sports and the psychology behind sports because I just
don't get this. And I think Gandy was puzzled, but
let her run with it. So that was neat. And
you know, everyone in my family had a realer We
(14:22):
all had artistic bents of different sorts, you know, And
you know with John, I mean John was you know,
my parents were so heady, my uncle was so hetty,
and it was sometimes hard to connect with him because,
like I said, I was so massively adhd in a
time of the eighties when we didn't know what that was.
It was so you were just deemed a colossal screw up.
And what happens with that, of course, it's a self
(14:43):
defeating prophecy, right you start to believe I become it,
I manifested. You want to screw up, I'll be as
screw up. So graduate at the bottom of my high
school three colleges and two semesters, which I still believe
is very hard to pull off. Yeah, that's a flex
you know, and I just, uh, it was, uh so
it would be it was very hard to connect on
any aesthetic level with these people who were just so
(15:05):
beyond me at that age. But as time went on,
I think, you know, I I really I like to
I think I earned some real respect in my family,
and you know, I think the number one thing was
my tenacity. You know, I just I wanted it so bad.
I wanted to write songs that that entered some semblance
of a zeitgeist. Right. I just wanted to hear a
song in a movie, or hear it in a stadium,
(15:27):
or hear it on the radio, because I was completely
raised on radios one, so I just wanted to hear
these uh. I wanted to hear these songs. And I
that that was I think the I think the one
redeeming character trait that I have because some stink, but
one I would say was I'm really Uh, I do
put the work in and I'm very passionate about my art,
(15:49):
and I think in my family, I think that's pretty respected.
So it was neat and didn't.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Didn't so much in the Eagles call him up and
he needed to consult with you about it.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, in the last years of my life, my own
got an email from Don Henley and Don Henley had
set one of his poems to music, and they put
it on the hell Freeze Over record. I believe, oh
that little record, Yeah, yeah, is that whatever? Whatever? The
Walmart was in two thousand and seven, and you know,
the record did two three million copies. Whatever. I had
(16:18):
never I was just about to have my first hit
with the Gym Class Heroes, and I'm finally like feeling
like I've done it. And my uncle, who at that
time was in his eighties, is on a bigger record
and never written, not a record before, so you know,
it's you know, I equate the music business with waking
(16:39):
up every single morning walking outside picture you're on you know,
Seventh Avenue South, any downtown, you walk outside of your building,
you get hit by a cab every single day for
thirty years, and every single day you have to wake
up and dust yourself off and go create art. Because
that's what it's like. I just say, you know, the
fear I have when I wake up in the morning
(16:59):
of just looking at you for something falling through or
something being rejected, et cetera. It can really do a
damage to your morale. So I would say, yeah, I'm
proudest of the fact that I can still get up
every single day. And now you know I'm geriatric, but
I still got it.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Let's not go that far. We're born in the nine Well,
you've put together a book called I Love the title
of your book twenty one hit wonder, Flopping my way
to the top of the charts, adventures and songwriting. Can
you explain a little bit about what one would read
when they open the pages of the book?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I can, I can. You know, I wrote this book
because first of all, it was completing what I felt
at the beginning on the onset, I felt like I
was competing, completing my dad's journey. There was a part
there was there was a hole in his life where
he to me at least, which then I resolved towards
(18:03):
the end of the book. But you know, he began
writing a book when I was seven, and he never
finished it. Forty years later he passed and he would
just come back to it and then put it down.
And you know, it was it was nothing that I
could ever stitch together. And it gutted me, to be
honest with you, I was absolutely crushed, because you know,
he was this brilliant man. I felt like I felt
(18:23):
like the world never really got to know, you know,
the extent of his genius. And so that's why I started,
because I felt for my daughter. You know, I have
one kid, and you know, she's musical, and I felt,
you know, she should really understand a little bit of
the family backstory and also what what hard work is
and more appropriately, what failure is, because you know, I
(18:47):
when you read the names of the people I've collaborated with,
there's some of these songs. It's very moving for me.
But it all happened after the age of thirty five,
and up to thirty five, I'm bang grupting every label
in the business. We went flop after flop after flop,
and that gets lost. And what happens is what I've
learned about in entertainment. You know, it's funny come tight
(19:10):
with Chuck D and great great guy, Public Enemy and
Chuck D. You know he knows more daybuddy. You know,
the industry just buries carcasses of failure. Right. We don't
talk about these things. Right, So whenever I read a
puff piece, and like Chuck, Chuck really reads entertainment books,
(19:30):
which I thought was fascinating because I do too. And
I've always felt like maybe I'm living myself. But you know,
there's nothing about you know, eighteen seventies, you know Prague
that I can get through my adhd is that's severe, Lenn.
So I have to get through these entertainment homes. And
one thing I'd say is they're all a humble brag.
Every book I read is a humble brag that tends
(19:51):
to be like a couple of moments of duress and failure.
Maybe one you overcame one thing and then suddenly it's like, oh,
in surprise, and then well, let's spike the ball the
next two hundred fifty pages. And what I wanted to
do was really harp on all these records that I made.
I mean, the first six albums that I produced for
artists didn't get released. One came out, the six came
(20:15):
out in September eleventh, two thousand and one, and ended
a career right there. But I ruined so many people's careers.
And the truth is I really played a massive role
in it in terms of just and what I excavate
these projects and talk about my role. It's not I'm
not blaming people or blaming the arts of the labels
or anything. It's really you know, judgment calls that I
made and missed one, and that's what I wanted to
(20:36):
write about. Make it just give people a little bit
of a manual on how do you survive something where
the deck is decked against you every day of the
week for decades. And that's what I did. And I
just felt like I felt like, you know, in this
new generation of kids who are gonna have to compete
with AI, which is going to take such a chunk
out of the marketplace. And you know, and the fact
(20:59):
that the democra reization music, everybody has the tools to
make their meeting. Everyone has a recording studio in their house.
That think about that. When I was a kid, Neil
Minsky lived in Pound Ridge and he had a four
track and he was the coolest kid in the world.
He had a four track. I've never seen anything like it. Like,
no one had gear. You know, Now everybody can do
it on their laptop. It's built in garage band comes
(21:19):
to the laptop. You know, these kids are working on
logic at the age of eight nine, so it's so
competitive now. And then you have to hit the algorithm
of TikTok and all these other things to even be heard,
so we're in These are truly crazy days. So the
one thing is I just wanted to sort of give
a little bit of a blueprint for anybody who's like
me out there, who is still struggling to figure out
(21:41):
and just understand that it will happen. But you have
to stick it out and you gotta you really do
have to put the work in.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So true and so lost today on just about everyone.
So definitely welcome, welcome inform it and if they're willing
to put in the time to listen. But many artists
I've interviewed through the years have said that they wrote
the hit song that they really got well known for.
They wrote for themselves, arranged for themselves what they liked,
(22:09):
what they wanted to hear, and then we're shocked to
find that it actually resonated with so many people. Is
that still something that happens today, do you think?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Well? Truthfully, I'm shape shifting and with every artist that
I collaborate with because I'm trying to avoid instilling my
will on them. Instead, I'm trying my best to be
a coach, a guide, you know, I'm trying to get
them over the top and work. Yes, I work from
(22:39):
there and just sort of trying to figure out where
they're at in the process. You know, I work with
some people who are incredibly lyrical and so they don't
need me in that end of it, and that's really
my specialty is I'm pretty quick with a pen. But
then you know what, then then I instantly read the
room and I shift over to where the melodies sit
and making sure the melodies are working and blah blah
blah blah blah, making sure that conceptually tight. Other writers
(23:02):
aren't particularly lyrical, or I'm getting them on a day
that they're just burnt out, they have nothing, but they
want to give it a go. And I'm coming in
the room with two or three completely finished, fleshed out
ideas before I didn't sit down with them, and I
sing them to the artist because you know, I'm going
to shoot my shot anyway I can. And that's landed
some really successful songs too. There's no rhyme or reason
(23:24):
to it. But the one thing I would say is
these songs aren't written for me necessarily. There's inside jokes. Sure,
you know they're you know, high hopes, panga disco. You
know those verses are I wrote the verses on that song,
and there's great co writers on that song across the board.
Everybody did a great job. But you know, I wrote
the verses and the verses in that song where in
(23:46):
my head I made a through line between a dialogue
that I have with my mom when I was very young,
and then the second verse is me sort of giving
my same interpretation of that dollar to my daughter or
she was coming up and so so I tried to
connect the generational divide because they never got to know
each other. My mom passed, my daughter was so young,
so I thought this was a way to sort of,
(24:07):
you know, bring them together forever, and that that's why
I wrote that so song, it's pretty heavy for me.
And even though you hear it in sort of like
this bombastic, sort of you know, bouncy number, at the
core of it, I'd like to think there's a lot
of heart because the message is very real.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
So well, I have to know what went through your
mind when you weren't going to write necessarily a song
with Ringo Star a Beatle, but you were going to
pitch being a co writer with him. How does one
even feel when they're ringing the doorbell at Ringo Star's
house and you have to go in and make a
(24:42):
pitch that he's going to work with you.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
So I'll go through. I'd love it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I'd love to tell you that there was a high
degree of intimidation. But the strangest attribute I have beyond
tenacity is and I think this, this is formed when
I'm a kid, with being around Warhole and these worlds
and you know, and spending my you know, working with
(25:08):
Carol King in my twenties who really mentored me and
helped me out, and Nile Rogers and Paul Williams and
all these people who were these incredible beacons for me
and sort of just guided my journey. I I'm rarely intimidated,
and I think that's probably my greatest skill. It doesn't
really matter who I walk in a room with. But
I'm hard to shake. And I always say I'm sort
(25:29):
of like something that crawls on your shower curtain. Try
to wash it down, but it just it just doesn't
it doesn't happen. I sort of stick. I'll stick it out.
So I would say with Ringo, I'm excited, sure, massively
excited everything you know, I mean chills, But the flip
side was very focused and he grilled me. He grilled me,
(25:49):
and he was tough, and he's very snarky, very funny,
so witty, he's he's an incredible guy.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And was your heart being out of your chest or
you were fine?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
You were?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
You were?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I was okay, I was okay. I was more star
struck by you Lynn. Come on. So you know Ringo
is so twenty twenty three, but I uh no, I
I have to tell you, I uh I had a
very measured take on it. I was excited. But the
flip side was I was really hyper focused on having
a song with Ringo because I had done songs with
(26:22):
Mike g Love and the Beach Boys sing them live,
and I have to say to be able to say
I did something in the orbit of the Beach Boys
and the Beatles, I'll take it. Yeah, you know, pretty cool,
And so it was really about dialing it in. And
you know, since then, I think I've done five songs
of Ringos something like that, and it's always a blast.
And he is this this beautiful fella who is in
(26:43):
better physical shape than I am. And it's heartbreaking to
watch because he's like bouncing up and down while I'm
sort of slump slumped in the chair. So yeah, a
little bueler sir tech sech search up buler BEUTLERU, guys,
the guy's super talented.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Well spanning your successful career, which is is pretty amazing.
Is there one kis mid moment that stands out to
you the most working with someone and if you could
share what that is, I know you get that probably
a lot. But in the song making process that you were.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Well, I think the song that I it's the song
that I have a weird, very very very deep emotional
connection to is handclap by Fits in the Tantrums and
it's truly rooted in the fact of tenacity. You know.
I was a huge fan of the EP when they
(27:40):
first dropped their first EP, and I thought money Grabber
was the coolest thing ever. And you know, I googled them,
I google fits and I realized we were born a
couple months apart and just like us, like our generational
connection was so deep. And I could tell that he
was referencing you know, ABC and Smoky things like all
these you know, records of the time, you know, and
(28:03):
I felt like I've ever had a chance to get
in a room with him I would I would hit
it out of the park. And it took seven years
between meeting him the first time to finally getting a session,
and I had to work angles. And I have to
say my buddy Kevin griff and one of my best friends,
who's a better than Ezra. He made the connection, he
said because Fits sang on our band of Merrymaker's Christmas record,
(28:25):
and I when in five minutes with Fits, I knew
I was going to write a hit. I felt it.
I felt like we would write something very special together
because we just there was such a shared affinity, but
yet there were slight there were just like divergent paths
musically that felt would be great. Like he's more of
a pop guy. I would say, I'm more of like
a disco or soul guy. And so we met in
(28:47):
the middle and fused this strange song together. And it's
a very strange song, but it's that one means the
most to me because I really like I fought for it,
and I don't know, for some reason, I think it
just lives on more than the rest of the stuff.
It feels like the one that I hear it every day,
and that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
What do you most proud of Sam regarding your music
and your legacy.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I'm proudest to the fact that I was able to
spend my life making noise and there were so few
other lanes for me as a human, and I didn't
have any other interests. You know. I tell kids all
the time. Whenever I meet a kid, you know, and
they say, oh, how do I get into this business? Bubbah,
I say the same thing. It's like, Look, if you
(29:29):
ever wake up one morning and you have a strange
fascination with, you know, arugula, and you think to yourself, God,
I could market the world's greatest arugula. I can make
a strain that's like hybrid arugular or something, and every
Whole Foods and Trader Joe's will be all over it.
Go make your damn arugula. Because this is brutal, and
to do this with your life is uh. There's a
(29:51):
level of masochism that people could never understand it. And
so the fact that I survived thus far and I've
been doing it this long and I am I still
am excited every single day I wake up and you know,
I'm like this weird, stunted man child. I'm like you know,
I just every day, I just wake up and there's
(30:14):
an idea and it's sort of emanating. I'm trying to
figure out how to get it out of my head.
And it's a puzzle. And these are like these strange puzzles.
And I go for tons of walks in my town.
People see me walking everywhere, and I think it's a
little bit of a NodD visual, but you know, truly,
I'm in my head all day long, just trying to
crack the puzzle and put it down on paper. And
if it never sees the lad to day, it's fine,
(30:35):
but I have to get it out. And the fact
that I was given the luxury to do this for
this many years is it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
What would you tell someone one piece of advice of
all the great advice in sage wisdom that you've accumulated
in this.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I'll tell you I was blessed. I'm sure you were too.
I can hear in your voice. I was blessed with
supportive parents, right. I had parents and an infrastructure around
me of people who were cheering for me as a human.
And I was encouraged to color outside the lines. And
I just feel like a lot of people who pack
(31:14):
it in early don't have that support system. And it
can be as simple as finishing a song and playing
it for your friends and they diss it and or
they just look away unenthused and it's soul crushing, right.
Or you tell your parents you want to get it
into the music business entertainment industry, and the look of
(31:36):
horror on their faces because they don't understand how you
won't be homeless. You know. The one thing I would
say is if I could do it, anybody can do it.
And I started out with minimal skills, like a creative
kid with very suspect skills, and I put in the
ten thousand hours, the glad Welly and hours, and I
(31:58):
just kept going and going and going and harnessing and
changing and changing the way I approached my work and
changing genres and trying to find out where I fit
into the musical landscape. And I believe anybody can do it.
I just think you have to silence negative voices and
just have a singular focus on the fact that you
(32:19):
might just be great at something and you got to
you got to play it through.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
So choose optimism that will that will get you through
any most everything basic.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, it's like, I don't want to sound like an
Up with People record, but it's, uh, it's just choose.
I'm such a glass half empty person with every but
everything right in terms of I'm watching the Knicks last
night and I'm thinking to myself, there's zero way that
win this game. I'm just exasperating. I'm about to turn
the channel and one of the greatest comebacks I've ever saying,
I've always been that guy. I'm very negative. I think
(32:50):
it's like very Jewish, self deprecating and just sort of
having just be self aware enough to know that the
movie usually ends bad. The flip side is pressed that
with your art, with your art, believe that you can
do it, and you can that.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I've never heard that spin that you just put on
that that was just amazing because I'm thinking to myself,
where is this going? I mean, if he's negative, which
I totally, I mean, this is the plight of my
daily routine. It's just can you just see.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
The positive side of it?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I do, But with everything else, pure optimism, everything that
you want to know and learn, it's like one hundred
percent optimistic.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I mean, I'm just also another thing that's really important
is stay in your generation. You know, I think about
my mom, who was probably the sharpest cat I ever knew. Right,
my mom was freakishly bright. But my mom had a
fascination with Victorian era, you know, England, and I really
(33:49):
think she wanted to live in Victorian era England. And
I think she was crestfallen that that wasn't going to happen.
And she was very late to the internet, right, she
was very late to cell phones and all these things
before she passed. You know, I've always I understood it
and I got it. But the flip side was my
tact is I'm want to stay up on things and
(34:11):
I want to be on top of it. I'm taking
an AI class this summer just to understand how people
think and how it's going to impact, you know, creativity,
et cetera, because I just I don't want to feel irrelevant,
you know, I want to know that there are ways
to implement tools and make great art any and as
it evolves. And I think AI in our lifetime outside
(34:31):
of the Internet, is the craziest thing we've ever encountered.
I don't I think there are people who just don't
understand what we're about to see and I'm sure there's
a lot of negative with it, but there is some
positive too.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
So just on that note, can I ask you one
more question? Because I know I'm already overstaying my welcome
coers The Beatles McCartney putting out the new song with
Lennon on it through the advances of AI, How did
you feel about that?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Just curious once again, But you know, I'm not a purist.
I feel like, you know, I've heard a lot of
songs recently of older artists who I feel like are
using AI to you know, come up with something new
and sort of reinvigorate it. I can kind of hear
through it sometimes, and you know what, if it brings
people joy? Who am I to? Who am I to
(35:19):
rip it down? It's like, you know, I just I
just think it's crazy that we have these you know,
these uh, the abilities to do this, and the software
I've been messing around with. It's insane. I enter in
lyric prompts and very detailed lyric sheets and what comes
out might be better than my melodic writing, and it
(35:41):
eats me a little bit. But the flip side is
I'm like, WHOA, that's pretty good. All right, so I
can from this now, yeah, maybe exactly. That was six
seconds so straight, so it's evolving out of a speed
of it. I've never seen aything like it, but that
doesn't mean it's a negative to me. It just feels like,
you know, utilize it as a strength. People were scared,
you know, drummers were scared of drum machines. Well you
(36:03):
know what, people still record drummers. We've seen all of
this and sure, this is crazier and the capabilities are endless,
but I don't know, learn learn from it.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Don't hide good advice, very good advice. Thanks Sam, thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Thank you seriously, and anything you need, I'm here. But
it hit me up. Okay, feel better, Thank you,
Host
Lynn Hoffman
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