July 25, 2021 • 33 mins
In the premier episode of my new podcast Nonprofit Nation, I sat down with my friend and mentor Beth Kanter - the person who convinced me (unknowingly!) that I could have a career working with nonprofits on their digital strategy.
Beth Kanter is an internationally recognized thought leader in digital transformation and wellbeing in the nonprofit workplace. Named one of the most influential women in technology by Fast Company, she has over three decades of experience in designing and delivering training and capacity-building programs for nonprofits and foundations. As a sought-after keynote speaker and workshop leader, she has presented at nonprofit conferences on every inhabited continent of the world to thousands of nonprofits.
Not only is Beth super fun to have a drink with, she is such a wealth of information and incredibly forward-thinking.
Here are some of the topics we discussed:
- Why we are both very adept typists
- The future of nonprofit events in a hybrid world
- Her best tips for effective virtual meetings
- Strategies for managing a hybrid team
- Why inclusion is a vital piece of equity
- Techniques to increase workplace well-being
- The impact of artificial intelligence on the social sector
A Beth Kanter quotable: "Passion isn't a sustainable resource - we have to renew it."
Connect with Beth:
https://bethkanter.org/
https://twitter.com/kanter
https://instagram.com/kanter
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethkanter/
Beth's books on Amazon
Do me a favor? Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts (or your podcast player of choice) - it helps this podcast get seen by more people that would enjoy it!
About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:
Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.
She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online.
Clients include GoFundMe Charity, Meals on Wheels America, the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and the Boys & Girls Clubs of America.
Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julia Campbell (00:00):
Hello, Julia Campbell here with a very time
(00:03):
sensitive preroll. I have openedthe doors to my brand new course
for nonprofits the digitalfundraising formula. It's a step
by step blueprint to launchingwildly successful online
fundraising campaigns and aformula that you can use over
and over again. And the doorsare only open until September
20. class starts September 20.
So go to digital fundraisingformula.com Digital fundraising
(00:28):
formula.com. And take a look,sign up register, and I really
hope to see you on the inside.
Alright, let's get to theepisode. Hello, and welcome to
nonprofit nation. I'm your host,Julia Campbell. And I'm going to
(00:48):
sit down with nonprofit industryexperts, fundraisers, marketers,
and everyone in between to getreal and discuss what it takes
to build that movement thatyou've been dreaming of. I
created the nonprofit nationpodcast to share practical
wisdom and strategies to helpyou confidently find your voice.
(01:10):
definitively grow your audienceand effectively build your
movement. If you're a nonprofitnewbie, or an experienced
professional, who's looking toget more visibility, reach more
people and create even moreimpact, then you're in the right
place. Let's get started.
(01:32):
Hi, everyone. Welcome to thenonprofit nation podcast. I'm
your host, Julia Campbell, and Iam really extremely excited for
our guest today. Her name isBeth Kanter. Some of you might
know her be familiar with herwork. She is an internationally
recognized thought leader indigital transformation. And well
(01:55):
being in the nonprofitworkplace. She was named one of
the most influential women intechnology by Fast Company and
has over three decades ofexperience in designing and
delivering training and capacitybuilding programs for nonprofits
and foundations. Beth is asought after keynote speaker and
workshop leader, and she'spresented at nonprofit
(02:18):
conferences on every inhabitedcontinent of the world to 1000s
of nonprofits. I love that soAntartica,
Beth Kanter (02:27):
not yet but that's Yeah, it's not inhabited.
Julia Campbell (02:33):
That is amazing.
And Beth and I were just tryingto figure out where we met. And
we figured out that it was atthe nonprofit Technology
Conference when it was held inWashington, DC, which we believe
is in 2017. And I had known Bethbecause john Hayden, who is a
dear friend of both of us hadintroduced me to her work. And
that's, you know, this, I toldyou this 1000 times, you are the
(02:55):
reason that I discovered that Icould do what I do that I could
do consulting and speaking andworkshops around technology and
digital marketing and SocialMedia for Nonprofits when I read
your book, the networknonprofit, so you know that so
thank you so much. And that'salso wrote the intro to my
(03:15):
second book, wrote the forewordto my second book. So I really
appreciate you being here. Iknow that we'll talk about maybe
a little bit teaser at the endfor your next book. And I know
you need to be writing. So wewill get we will We'll get
going. So what I like to do onthe podcast, I like to begin
with kind of a brief story, youknow, how did you get involved
(03:39):
with nonprofit work, and itmight not be a brief story. And
that's completely fine.
Beth Kanter (03:45):
Oh, gosh, well, right out of school, and I was
trained as a classical musician.
So I was trying to get a degreein classical flute and I had
aspirations to sit first chairin the Boston Symphony. And if
you know anything about themusic world, classical music
world, if you apply for an operasinger job, no matter how good
you are, 500 people are applyingand they're just really hard to
get. So at one point, my fluteteacher had said to me, and he
(04:07):
was the second flutist in theNew York Philharmonic, he
noticed that I was tracking oneverything and how I was, you
know, practicing. He said, Youknow what, you'd be really good
on the management side. Whydon't you check that out? So I
got all these introductions tointerview the general at the
time, this was like 40 yearsago, this 1982 interview, like
the general managers of themajor symphonies, including
Boston, and I went in like, Oh,I want to be general manager,
(04:31):
you know, the symphony, what doI need to know how to do and,
and like that they're all beingmen. You got to learn how to
type honey.
Julia Campbell (04:39):
Pie.
Beth Kanter (04:40):
That was something you had to know how to type to
get a job really, and especiallyif you're Yeah, it's kind of
sexist thing to say, butwhatever, very sexist thing. So
I learned how to type but I tookmy metronome and my music
training, and I slowly went andpractice all the typing until I
could do it really fast andaccurately so I could type like
120 words a minute, really fast.
Julia Campbell (05:00):
What I love that you're saying that I just want
to interrupt you for a minute,the reason why I think I'm such
a fast typer is I took piano.
And so you have that I hand herchoreography, and that's really
interesting. person I've heardsay that,
Beth Kanter (05:15):
but also to the discipline of practice, you
start slowly, and then yougradually speed up. So anyway, I
got a job at the Boston Symphonyin the development office. And
at that point, it was reallysmall. So I learned I did all
the prospect research, I learnedannual campaigns, I learned a
lot. But I wanted to get intothe production and management
side. So at that point, I wentin and asked that General
(05:36):
Manager, Tom Morris, it was atthe time and he said, well go
manage the one of the smallergroups around town. So I became
General Manager, the priorityChamber Orchestra. And that's
kind of how I started, I wasthere, I did some really big
fundraising things grew them.
And then I kind of got intoconsulting with arts,
nonprofits. And then around 19,obviously, 1987 88, I discovered
(05:56):
the internet. And I was justenthralled by all the
technology. And eventually, Igot a job with the New York
foundation for the arts fortheir arts wire program, which
was their online network, whichwas way ahead of its time. I
mean, this is like 990 90, andthen the web happen. And I
started teaching nonprofits howto get on email, how to do the
(06:16):
web. So then that like, thatchunk of my career was always
kind of working in the nonprofitsector, and learning the
technology and then teaching itback and working with
nonprofits. So it's missiondriven.
Julia Campbell (06:31):
So tell me about the work that you do now.
Beth Kanter (06:33):
Yeah, so I'm still in a sense doing that with
technology, you know, and I, myheart is around nonprofit tech,
I'm on the board of antenne. AndI do a lot of work around
digital transformation. And, youknow, my social media history.
But I'm also I, along this time,I also had a twin track of
wanting to be a really greatfacilitator and a trainer, and
(06:56):
both in person and online, evenbefore the pandemic. So I sort
of combine those, those thesubject matters, and met subject
matter, our digitaltransformation and workplace
well being and those relate tomy books. And then I do a lot of
facilitation of retreats,learning, peer group learning
and workshops. And speaking ofcourse,
Julia Campbell (07:17):
yes. Well, let's jump into actually facilitation
and events. And what I want totalk about, I mean, what what do
you see as being fundamentallychanged, like fundamental shifts
that are happening? Not evenjust in the sector, but just in
terms of events in terms offacilitation and workshops? What
(07:39):
do you see having, like, whatcan we take with us that we have
learned in 2020? Hopefully, whatcan we take with us into the
future?
Beth Kanter (07:48):
Such a great question. So hyper hybrid,
workplace models, you know, sortof, we know that not all of us
right away, are going to be backgoing back into the office,
either, because of whatever thepublic health guidelines are, we
don't know what's going tohappen with the virus and
people's comfort levels. And,you know, when we were suddenly
remote, you know, we learnedthat we could still be
(08:09):
productive working remotely to acertain extent, we also
discovered that we probably justtried to shove everything into a
zoom meeting. And it'sexhausting, because the zoom
fatigue, and having thecognitive load that it puts on
you to work that way. And wedidn't really adapt and refine
the way we're working to, to bereally highly effective and
(08:30):
energetic and have a great senseof well being while we're
working remotely. So now we'rekind of starting to do that. And
now we have this other shiftcoming the hybrid workplace,
right. So that's where a handfulof people work in the office or
and the others are workingremotely. Hybrid work is not
new, it was here before thepandemic, but before it was, you
(08:50):
know, people who are coming inremotely were was a smaller
number, those arrangements werenegotiated between manager and
employee. And and often that wasa bad experience for for people
who are remote because youprobably have this for your
remote everyone else's in theroom, they have the privilege of
being face to face. Andsometimes you just forget the
(09:12):
remote people. They're justhanging out there. So what's
what's going to happen, I think,now is that we think about the
main office, the power structureof the main office, right? It
just becomes another node on thenetwork or the remote
distributed workforce. And Ithink we really have to put a
lot of thought into inclusion,that everybody has the same
experience ability toparticipate. I mean, there's
(09:34):
equity issues in terms ofequipment and internet access.
But there's also something andI'm going to talk a lot about
this called the proximity bias.
And the proximity bias is, it'salso been called the go getter
bias. So okay, so who's in theoffice with the boss that the
boss sees you? There's a biasthere to think, oh, that person
is working really hard and theperson who's remote and what are
(09:55):
they
Julia Campbell (09:56):
scooping off or the person that's staying till
7pm As opposed to the personthat's super productive, leaving
it three,
Beth Kanter (10:04):
Yes, exactly. And then, so you got to think about
who gets to be in the office,when if we're going to go to
flexibility schedules, you know,a couple days in the office a
couple days out. And also, ifwe're going to give people what
their preferences are. And if wethink about this, women, one
foot more flexible workspaces,um, you and I both know the
reason why, why is your doorlocked,
Julia Campbell (10:25):
my door is literally locked right now.
Exactly.
Beth Kanter (10:28):
Because it's in its way, you know, it's so much
easier to be a mom, and workwhen you have flex workplace
that isn't having to go into theoffice. And also, there are
studies showing that people ofcolor have a preference for
working remotely, becausethey're not dealing with a
slight onslaught ofmicroaggressions. So you think
about all of that. And then youthink about the proximity bias,
(10:49):
you know, you can end up havingtwo classes of employees and
advancing certain certain onesover others. So people have to
start thinking about, you know,it's really about the
deliverables. It's not about thescreen time, you have to
thoughtfully Think about yourflexibility schedules, you know,
when you're going to be in theoffice, who else is going to be
in the office? It startsthinking about rethinking
physical space. Well, everybodyhad their own desk, who gets a
(11:12):
side office? Or is it going tobe we're going to transform the
office really just for in facein person interaction? And then
I think we really have to getbetter at figuring out, like,
how we do our work together, orour culture, you know, the way
things get done? And how do wedivide between real time work,
which is synchronous andasynchronous synchronous work? I
(11:34):
always mispronounce that word.
And then my husband shouts inthe background, the corrective,
Julia Campbell (11:39):
synchronous and asynchronous and
Beth Kanter (11:41):
I got it right. So it means that like, we're all
used to having the meeting inreal time face to face be the
central central place of how wegot work done. And that's going
to shift, we're going to go backto the way it was.
Julia Campbell (11:53):
No, I nor should we, I don't think No,
Beth Kanter (11:55):
not at all. Not at all. Because why should we give
up what we learn in terms offlexibility, because flexibility
is a key contributor to peoplefeeling well, having well being
at work, that flexibility isreally important. So people can
maintain that work life balance.
Julia Campbell (12:10):
So I think you know, how nonprofits are like
steering a cruise ship, to getthem to change to get them to
adapt from the status quo. Andthat's just sometimes because of
budgets, sometimes because ofcapacity, sometimes because of
board members, sometimes becauseof skepticism. But what are some
(12:31):
tips that you have for managers?
For people that really want toavoid this proximity bias? They
want to be inclusive, they wantto have a vibrant hybrid team,
what are some tips andstrategies you can give them?
Beth Kanter (12:46):
That's a really great question. Now we're
talking about changing cultureor weight the way things we do
around here, and that's kind oflike, you know, you don't see
it, right. It's not like, youcheck it off the list. It's not
like how to write a grantproposal, or how to send out a
tweet. It's about purpose,values, behaviors, recognition,
rituals, and cues. And where thestress happens is, when there's
(13:10):
a disconnect between values, wesay, we're going to do this, but
our behaviors are different. SoI think it's time to really
start with kind of intentionalconversations around culture,
and things like, for example,like what are our values,
articulate those and then relatethem to the different kinds of
behaviors around getting workdone. That's communication,
(13:33):
collaboration, feedback, makingdecisions, being inclusive,
handling conflict, handling, howyou prioritize work, and also
how you measure performance, andthen coming up with plans around
that, based out of thatconversation. So you're, in a
sense, creating new norms for ahybrid workplace. And it's
great, because it's like areset, this is a great time to
(13:56):
kind of really be intentionalabout that. Now, when you create
new behaviors as part ofculture, it's kind of like
creating new habits, right, youknow, you know, New Year's, you
know, we say, I'm going to lose10 pounds, and I'm gonna start
running 10 miles a day, that,you know, it doesn't always
happen. So I think it has tohappen. And when these baby
steps, so for example, let's saythat there's some norms, there's
(14:20):
a value that you talk about,that we're going to listen to
everybody and give everyonevoice and be inclusive, right.
So maybe that comes a norm thatgoes on your meeting agendas.
And you say those out loudbefore you have your meeting.
And then the thing that you say,how well do we do and it's this
learning and this kind offeedback loop while you're
practicing it until it becomespart of the way you do things
(14:43):
around here.
Julia Campbell (14:43):
Absolutely.
walking the walk and not justarticulating your values and
putting them on your website,but really integrating them into
every meeting into everyinteraction. Yes. Oh, I love
that. Okay, so there are 10,000different topics that I want to
pick Your brain on because wehave you here whatever's left of
us. Oh, no, but I, we weretalking earlier. And I do think
(15:07):
that nonprofits, event planners,fundraisers people want to know,
they asked me all the time. AndI asked you before and I would
love your opinion again, what doyou feel is the future? for
events for conferences forfundraisers? What do you think,
hybrid virtual in person?
Beth Kanter (15:28):
I've been grappling with this because one of my main
jobs is to facilitate aconvening per foundation. And we
had to go virtual this year. Andwe're now planning for 2023. And
we're asking this question, andI'm also looking into, you know,
what's out there? So I thinkit's a couple of things. I don't
think there's a set answer tothat. Because there's so many
things we don't know like aboutwhat the public health
(15:49):
requirements are going to beright? I do hear these
murmurings around, we want toget, you know, we're gonna get
back face to face, we're gonnaget back to the, you know, we'll
see you and I have to, I want tosee you, Julia, I want to see
you at the conferences we usedto go to and be able to give you
a hug and like, have a glass ofwine with you, or whatever, you
Julia Campbell (16:07):
know, our gin and tonic like we did in San
Diego,
Beth Kanter (16:11):
and tonic, and I had a white wine maybe. But I
think what's going to happen isthat there may be smaller in
person events, but there's gonnabe hybrid components to them.
And so we might have punter andcontent as easy as we know how
to do that live stream, right?
And then have a chat going onand be able to have someone in
the room who can integrate thepeople from afar to the speakers
in the room, you know,monitoring the chat and
(16:35):
verbalize the question to thespeaker. What's really exciting
me and what I'm looking at arewhat are all the ways that you
can do hybrid in smaller groupsthat are interactive things that
aren't like just a webinar? Likehow can you integrate both like
in the room sticky notes withvirtual sticky notes, lower
bound creative processes, likeremember the session we did with
(16:55):
the
Julia Campbell (16:57):
like the posters, the sticky notes where
we had the four corners? Yeah,groups? How do you do that?
virtually?
Beth Kanter (17:03):
Yeah, it's hard.
But there's, there are sometools that you can do it. It's
easier if it's all virtual,honestly, because I've done a
lot of that over the last 18months, virtual sticky notes and
kind of design thinking kinds ofprocesses, but it's how do you
do that when there's some peoplein the room and some people also
remotely and I think it comesdown to really good bridge
moderation and bridgefacilitation. So that
(17:25):
facilitator, that responsibilityis to make sure that the people
in the room are connecting withthe people who are remote that
so it's inclusive.
Julia Campbell (17:34):
So it's really being thoughtful and strategic.
It's almost like how peopleshould be planning conferences,
even if they're in person,making sure it's a great
experience for all of theattendees.
Beth Kanter (17:45):
Yeah, we know, I'm remembering now that conference,
wherever we met in DC, Iremember, I'm thinking like it
was even earlier than 2017. ButI remember at one point, and
Tim, and it might have been evenbefore Amy, they were doing some
live, remote NTC. And they wereall designed as live broadcasts.
(18:08):
And they came to me we want todo your session, which was a
training session, it wascompletely interactive. Like we
were doing, having people lineup in four corners, and all
that. And all of a sudden therehere's, you know, a laptop with
a bunch of people. So we had toassign one person to that
laptop, who managed who managedthe chat, one of our speakers,
(18:28):
and then also brought the laptopover to the small group. Yeah,
and could facilitate theconversation, because otherwise
it wouldn't work. Hey, there,
Julia Campbell (18:36):
I'm interrupting this episode to share an
absolutely free training that Icreated that getting nonprofits
of all sizes, big results. sureyou've been spending hours on
social media, but what can youactually show for it? With all
this posting and instagrammingand tick talking? Does it really
translate into action? In myfree training, I'll show you
(18:58):
exactly how to take people frompassive fans to passionate
supporters. And I'll give youspecific steps to create social
media content that actuallyconverts head on over to
nonprofits, that convert.com.
Again, that's nonprofits thatconvert calm and start building
a thriving social mediacommunity, for your nonprofit
(19:21):
right now, without a big team,lots of tech overwhelm or
getting stuck on the question.
What do I do next? Let me showyou how it's done. I can't wait
to see what you create.
(19:41):
Another topic that I want totalk about especially going
into, I was saying pandemicadjacent post pandemic next
normal, new normal, whatever wewant to call it is self care,
avoiding overwhelm and avoidingburnout. So you wrote the book
the happy, healthy nonprofitstrategy. For him back without
burnout in 2016. But that seemsmore relevant now than ever. So
(20:06):
can you talk about self care andhow nonprofits can practice self
care why it's an essential pieceof doing effective work?
Beth Kanter (20:15):
Sure, that's a topic that's near and dear to my
heart. So I wrote the book in2015, published it in 2016,
right after Trump was elected,and initially in the beginning
needed it then, right, andpeople didn't want to talk about
this, it was a taboo topic, wedon't talk about burnout. That's
a soft skill, no one want totalk about well being in the
workplace and the nonprofit andwithin the nonprofit grounds. So
(20:37):
I was running out, and at thetime, and I was seeing people
burn out. So I'm like, what'sgoing on here. And certainly,
like everything else, thatpandemic has really accelerated,
and accentuated and made kind oflike our, the way we are in the
sector, because we're sopassionate about it, you know,
we tend to overwork because ofour passion, and that it's a
passion isn't a sustainableresource, we have to renew it.
(21:00):
And also, this kind of work fromhome has like gotten work life
balance really out of kilter.
It's like, do I can't rememberdo I work at home? Or do I live
at work? You know, and and, youknow, it's I was showing you
slides, I would show you theslide of a bar graph that shows
how many hours on average peoplework per week in different
countries pre pandemic, comparedto post pandemic, we can link
Julia Campbell (21:23):
to it if it's on your blog.
Beth Kanter (21:25):
Sure. And, but basically, we're working longer
hours, because because we'reworking from home, in part
because, you know, we couldn'tgo out, you know, so what else
we're going to do work. And Ithink we, it's so easy for us to
carry that into where we'regoing. And the other thing
that's happening is the we arein the midst of a kind of
(21:46):
public, a mental health crisis,depression, anxiety, all of
those things are on the rise.
But you know, because of thepandemic, because we've been
closed off from a lot of oursupport systems. And then
there's another like kind ofcondition, Adam Grant called it
languishing,
Julia Campbell (22:04):
you might love Adam Grant, languishing, I read,
I saw that talk, or I read thatarticle that described exactly
how I have been feeling. And metoo, it's
Beth Kanter (22:14):
kind of blah, not motivated, you feel dull. And so
the idea is, is that we need tolike go from languishing to
flourishing, which is reallybeing alive. And like
flourishing, I think of washflowers, I think of gardens
growing and you know, and sothat requires us taking care of
ourselves doing things likegetting enough sleep, creating
moments of joy in our life,getting enough exercise, working
(22:38):
to, you know, putting boundariesaround things, boundary
management's really important.
As we both know, yes, with yourfamily, and both around digital.
So really putting thesepractices in place, so we can
switch this languaginglanguishing to flourishing.
Julia Campbell (22:54):
I love that. And I love following you on
Instagram On Facebook, seeingyour walks in San Francisco. So
how did you practice self care?
During COVID? What are some waysthat you did
Beth Kanter (23:08):
three things, I'll come back to the moments of joy.
I installed a hummingbird feederon the window in our house. And
maybe you've seen some of thephotos of the hummingbirds and,
and what I learned about them,they're very territorial. And we
had this one bird. And Anna'sHummingbird with the Red Hood. I
his name was Billy bird, and hewould chase away all the other
(23:29):
birds. So I read that if you putup more feeders, there's too
much for them to try to liketake over. So I put up another
five feeders and so he couldn'tcontrol them all. And so now we
have more and there's a littlebit more harmony. So incorporate
moments of joy. The second thingis change your view. And my
husband I have this thing likego to the coast stay like well
decide like at two o'clock inthe afternoon. We're 45 minutes
(23:52):
from the Pacific Ocean and it'sgorgeous. We'll just take off
and go to the coast. Go for awalk, go stay with the waves.
It's healing. Sometimes I'vejust like I'm going to take my
laptop and my phone and just gowork like in Half Moon Bay.
Because I have that flexibility.
I love
Julia Campbell (24:08):
Half Moon Bay.
Oh my
Beth Kanter (24:10):
Yeah, so and then the third thing is this walking
I have my fake commute. So Iwalk every morning and there is
research that just came out fromthe Microsoft Human Factors lab
that if you're taking even afive minute break to walk around
the block or something that thathelps fight that zoom fatigue so
(24:30):
I've just continued my walking15,000 steps a day on the Fitbit
no matter what
Julia Campbell (24:35):
no way oh my gosh for my hero I got a Fitbit
for Christmas and I don't wearit because I started to feel bad
about a few steps that I that Igot. I tried to take a lot of
walks though.
Beth Kanter (24:48):
Well, I guess there's like three to you know,
there are three differentpersonalities they get Fitbit
some they get it and stopbecause of that others track for
a while until they know likewhat 10,000 steps feels like and
then others they get totallyobsessed like If me, yeah, I
have like roots in myneighborhood that I know that's
1000 steps, I can do that infive minutes, or I have 20
minutes, I'm going to go out andI can get another 5000 steps.
(25:10):
And I'm just obsessed with it.
Since 2013, so yes,
Julia Campbell (25:17):
and you've always talked about it, and
you've been really public aboutit. You've also been, I love
promoting walking meetings, evenbefore COVID calling really
strolling meetings now strollingmeetings, yes. Because not
everyone can walk so some peoplecan roll so you can stroll.
Exactly. So I would be remiss ifI had one of the preeminent
(25:40):
digital thought leaders in thenonprofit sector here. And I
didn't ask, what do you see assome of the most important and
noteworthy future Digital Trendsfor nonprofits?
Beth Kanter (25:51):
Oh, that's such a great question.
Julia Campbell (25:54):
You can segue into maybe a little teaser for
your,
Beth Kanter (25:58):
for our Well, I think, just initially, some of
what we've been talking about.
I've seen the pandemic becauseit wasn't a choice. We've seen
so much movement on digitaltransformation, the nonprofit
sector and people realizing Yes,we can do this, and the
resistance kind of melt away.
And that's a good thing. But wealso had like frictionless
(26:18):
adoption. So which meant thatsome weren't necessarily
adopting strategically, I'llgive an example. Like, now we
could put our services online.
So we're not just focused on thelocal geographic community, we
can serve other people, but theydidn't really think about that
in a strategy way. So I thinkcoming, people are maybe going
back and rethinking businessmodels, or as we were talking
(26:39):
before, about rethinking the waythey do their work to
incorporate this hybrid, newtechnologies that are coming in.
They're already here, automationand artificial intelligence,
Allison find and I are writing abook, and we call them smart
technologies. So we're writing abook called The Smart nonprofit,
staying human centered in anautomated world. And we're
looking at the impact thatautomation will have on
(27:02):
nonprofits fundraisingprogramming back office. And
it's not a book that looks atall the bright side, because
there's so many unintendedconsequences and unintended
harms that can happen. And solooking at processes, like you
know, how to do threat modeling,how to figure out what those
unintended unintendedconsequences are, how do you,
(27:23):
like have a thoughtful way ofstaying human centered with this
while keeping your ethics at thehighest moral standard, and then
ways that you can really iteratean inch your way into using the
tech versus like, kind of fullon adoption? So that's what the
book is going to cover withinitial examples. And what we're
(27:43):
seeing we're still in the earlystages,
Julia Campbell (27:46):
right? Did you see any great examples of
digital transformation ornonprofits sort of adopting
digital incorporating it intotheir work during the pandemic?
Or have you seen any innovationsin the last year,
Beth Kanter (28:02):
I saw one that and we looked at it in the book, and
I'll get the cool side, and thenI'll give the this didn't
happen. But the potentialunintended consequence. So I
think I might have been Bostonactually aware, one of the food
banks, because of that theheight of the pandemic, a lot of
the food banks have volunteers,a lot of those button volunteers
tend to be older, so theyweren't coming into the food
bank to help pack boxes and doinventory. So they had robotics
(28:26):
come in to do some of thevolunteer tasks of packing boxes
with food and kind of doing theinventory and also to sanitize,
which I thought was really cool.
I think now, like one wouldwonder, okay, so as things
change, do you keep this andjust go into default mode? Or do
you actually kind of look aroundand talk to those volunteers
about how do they feel aboutbeing replaced by robots? Right,
(28:47):
well, that disenfranchise them.
And we know people who volunteerthen tend to be donors. So it's
thinking about like, okay, now,as we integrate something like
this, how do they co boteffectively alongside, you know,
the humans, you know, how doyou, you know, how do you like,
figure out like, what getsautomated, what goes to the
(29:09):
machine, what goes to the human,it's not totally replacing the
human job, but it's, you know,working together, and you have
to prepare your people for thatprepare your processes, but I
thought that was there were alot of innovations directly
related to COVID. Like even thevaccine research was
accelerated, in part becausethey use machine learning
algorithms to kind of predictiveanalytics to take a look at,
(29:32):
like what combination ofproteins might work. So that was
accelerated. There's also itdidn't work great in the
beginning, but algorithms arounddeploying the vaccine initially,
we're seeing a more the use ofautomation in terms of now
having vaccine registries, thosesorts of things. I love that.
Julia Campbell (29:53):
I love that. I want to just ask you one more
question just to kind of getyour input on this. How do you
counsel nonprofits that areafraid of change? How do you
counsel them and consult andjust give them tips on how to
manage the constant constanttidal waves of change that we're
going through? Especially withtechnology? Oh, gosh, oh, well,
Beth Kanter (30:17):
we have to address it, you know, change as hard. As
we know, like, even when I'mdoing training, I usually start
with a exercise around to thinkabout all you know, how does all
this change make you feel?
Right? put
Julia Campbell (30:30):
that out there, let
Beth Kanter (30:31):
it out? And then what do you need to do to you
know, what do you need to do tomake I must do x, right? And
then when it's all said anddone, you know, what's the
outcome just so just sort ofthink about, like, the why
you're doing it, the benefit, tounderstand how the change is
impacting you and to be able todevelop strategies to like,
(30:52):
buffer yourself from thatdirectly. But first, you have to
recognize that it's there.
Recognize it's there and not getcaught in it.
Julia Campbell (31:00):
I love that.
Thank you. Well, that thank youso much. I want to know, how can
people reach you? How can theyget in touch with you and learn
more about you?
Beth Kanter (31:09):
www dot Beth kanter.org on the web. And then
you can also always find me onTwitter at Cantor are also on
LinkedIn.
Julia Campbell (31:17):
Awesome, fantastic. Thanks so much. Check
out all of Beth's books. We willlink to them in the show notes.
We will link to them anywherethat we have this episode, you
know published. So and I wouldlove to have you and Allison on
to talk about the book,artificial intelligence and
automation. What's it called thesmart nonprofit?
Beth Kanter (31:37):
Yeah, staying human centered in an automated world.
Julia Campbell (31:40):
I love that.
Just a quick question. Did youever hear about Stephen shaddix?
book? robots? Terriblefundraisers? Yes, yes. Great
book. Yes. So shout out toSteven Shattuck that made me
think of that I thought that wasI thought that was really I
thought that was it. Yeah,
Beth Kanter (31:55):
the robots can take your donors out to lunch.
Exactly.
Julia Campbell (31:59):
All right. Well, thanks so much. And we'll have
you back on the podcast. I hopeso. Take care. Great, thanks.
Well, hey there. I wanted to saythank you for tuning in to my
show, and for listening all theway to the end. If you really
(32:20):
enjoyed today's conversation,make sure to subscribe to the
show in your favorite podcastapp, and you'll get new episodes
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And then me and my guests canreach even more earbuds and
create even more impact. Sothat's pretty much it. I'll be
(32:42):
back soon with a brand newepisode. But until then, you can
find me on Instagram at JuliaCampbell seven, seven. keep
changing the world. Nonprofitunicorn
Hello, Julia Campbell here with a very time
(00:03):
sensitive preroll. I have openedthe doors to my brand new course
for nonprofits the digitalfundraising formula. It's a step
by step blueprint to launchingwildly successful online
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So go to digital fundraisingformula.com Digital fundraising
(00:28):
formula.com. And take a look,sign up register, and I really
hope to see you on the inside.
Alright, let's get to theepisode. Hello, and welcome to
nonprofit nation. I'm your host,Julia Campbell. And I'm going to
(00:48):
sit down with nonprofit industryexperts, fundraisers, marketers,
and everyone in between to getreal and discuss what it takes
to build that movement thatyou've been dreaming of. I
created the nonprofit nationpodcast to share practical
wisdom and strategies to helpyou confidently find your voice.
(01:10):
definitively grow your audienceand effectively build your
movement. If you're a nonprofitnewbie, or an experienced
professional, who's looking toget more visibility, reach more
people and create even moreimpact, then you're in the right
place. Let's get started.
(01:32):
Hi, everyone. Welcome to thenonprofit nation podcast. I'm
your host, Julia Campbell, and Iam really extremely excited for
our guest today. Her name isBeth Kanter. Some of you might
know her be familiar with herwork. She is an internationally
recognized thought leader indigital transformation. And well
(01:55):
being in the nonprofitworkplace. She was named one of
the most influential women intechnology by Fast Company and
has over three decades ofexperience in designing and
delivering training and capacitybuilding programs for nonprofits
and foundations. Beth is asought after keynote speaker and
workshop leader, and she'spresented at nonprofit
(02:18):
conferences on every inhabitedcontinent of the world to 1000s
of nonprofits. I love that soAntartica,
Beth Kanter (02:27):
not yet but that's Yeah, it's not inhabited.
Julia Campbell (02:33):
That is amazing.
And Beth and I were just tryingto figure out where we met. And
we figured out that it was atthe nonprofit Technology
Conference when it was held inWashington, DC, which we believe
is in 2017. And I had known Bethbecause john Hayden, who is a
dear friend of both of us hadintroduced me to her work. And
that's, you know, this, I toldyou this 1000 times, you are the
(02:55):
reason that I discovered that Icould do what I do that I could
do consulting and speaking andworkshops around technology and
digital marketing and SocialMedia for Nonprofits when I read
your book, the networknonprofit, so you know that so
thank you so much. And that'salso wrote the intro to my
(03:15):
second book, wrote the forewordto my second book. So I really
appreciate you being here. Iknow that we'll talk about maybe
a little bit teaser at the endfor your next book. And I know
you need to be writing. So wewill get we will We'll get
going. So what I like to do onthe podcast, I like to begin
with kind of a brief story, youknow, how did you get involved
(03:39):
with nonprofit work, and itmight not be a brief story. And
that's completely fine.
Beth Kanter (03:45):
Oh, gosh, well, right out of school, and I was
trained as a classical musician.
So I was trying to get a degreein classical flute and I had
aspirations to sit first chairin the Boston Symphony. And if
you know anything about themusic world, classical music
world, if you apply for an operasinger job, no matter how good
you are, 500 people are applyingand they're just really hard to
get. So at one point, my fluteteacher had said to me, and he
(04:07):
was the second flutist in theNew York Philharmonic, he
noticed that I was tracking oneverything and how I was, you
know, practicing. He said, Youknow what, you'd be really good
on the management side. Whydon't you check that out? So I
got all these introductions tointerview the general at the
time, this was like 40 yearsago, this 1982 interview, like
the general managers of themajor symphonies, including
Boston, and I went in like, Oh,I want to be general manager,
(04:31):
you know, the symphony, what doI need to know how to do and,
and like that they're all beingmen. You got to learn how to
type honey.
Julia Campbell (04:39):
Pie.
Beth Kanter (04:40):
That was something you had to know how to type to
get a job really, and especiallyif you're Yeah, it's kind of
sexist thing to say, butwhatever, very sexist thing. So
I learned how to type but I tookmy metronome and my music
training, and I slowly went andpractice all the typing until I
could do it really fast andaccurately so I could type like
120 words a minute, really fast.
Julia Campbell (05:00):
What I love that you're saying that I just want
to interrupt you for a minute,the reason why I think I'm such
a fast typer is I took piano.
And so you have that I hand herchoreography, and that's really
interesting. person I've heardsay that,
Beth Kanter (05:15):
but also to the discipline of practice, you
start slowly, and then yougradually speed up. So anyway, I
got a job at the Boston Symphonyin the development office. And
at that point, it was reallysmall. So I learned I did all
the prospect research, I learnedannual campaigns, I learned a
lot. But I wanted to get intothe production and management
side. So at that point, I wentin and asked that General
(05:36):
Manager, Tom Morris, it was atthe time and he said, well go
manage the one of the smallergroups around town. So I became
General Manager, the priorityChamber Orchestra. And that's
kind of how I started, I wasthere, I did some really big
fundraising things grew them.
And then I kind of got intoconsulting with arts,
nonprofits. And then around 19,obviously, 1987 88, I discovered
(05:56):
the internet. And I was justenthralled by all the
technology. And eventually, Igot a job with the New York
foundation for the arts fortheir arts wire program, which
was their online network, whichwas way ahead of its time. I
mean, this is like 990 90, andthen the web happen. And I
started teaching nonprofits howto get on email, how to do the
(06:16):
web. So then that like, thatchunk of my career was always
kind of working in the nonprofitsector, and learning the
technology and then teaching itback and working with
nonprofits. So it's missiondriven.
Julia Campbell (06:31):
So tell me about the work that you do now.
Beth Kanter (06:33):
Yeah, so I'm still in a sense doing that with
technology, you know, and I, myheart is around nonprofit tech,
I'm on the board of antenne. AndI do a lot of work around
digital transformation. And, youknow, my social media history.
But I'm also I, along this time,I also had a twin track of
wanting to be a really greatfacilitator and a trainer, and
(06:56):
both in person and online, evenbefore the pandemic. So I sort
of combine those, those thesubject matters, and met subject
matter, our digitaltransformation and workplace
well being and those relate tomy books. And then I do a lot of
facilitation of retreats,learning, peer group learning
and workshops. And speaking ofcourse,
Julia Campbell (07:17):
yes. Well, let's jump into actually facilitation
and events. And what I want totalk about, I mean, what what do
you see as being fundamentallychanged, like fundamental shifts
that are happening? Not evenjust in the sector, but just in
terms of events in terms offacilitation and workshops? What
(07:39):
do you see having, like, whatcan we take with us that we have
learned in 2020? Hopefully, whatcan we take with us into the
future?
Beth Kanter (07:48):
Such a great question. So hyper hybrid,
workplace models, you know, sortof, we know that not all of us
right away, are going to be backgoing back into the office,
either, because of whatever thepublic health guidelines are, we
don't know what's going tohappen with the virus and
people's comfort levels. And,you know, when we were suddenly
remote, you know, we learnedthat we could still be
(08:09):
productive working remotely to acertain extent, we also
discovered that we probably justtried to shove everything into a
zoom meeting. And it'sexhausting, because the zoom
fatigue, and having thecognitive load that it puts on
you to work that way. And wedidn't really adapt and refine
the way we're working to, to bereally highly effective and
(08:30):
energetic and have a great senseof well being while we're
working remotely. So now we'rekind of starting to do that. And
now we have this other shiftcoming the hybrid workplace,
right. So that's where a handfulof people work in the office or
and the others are workingremotely. Hybrid work is not
new, it was here before thepandemic, but before it was, you
(08:50):
know, people who are coming inremotely were was a smaller
number, those arrangements werenegotiated between manager and
employee. And and often that wasa bad experience for for people
who are remote because youprobably have this for your
remote everyone else's in theroom, they have the privilege of
being face to face. Andsometimes you just forget the
(09:12):
remote people. They're justhanging out there. So what's
what's going to happen, I think,now is that we think about the
main office, the power structureof the main office, right? It
just becomes another node on thenetwork or the remote
distributed workforce. And Ithink we really have to put a
lot of thought into inclusion,that everybody has the same
experience ability toparticipate. I mean, there's
(09:34):
equity issues in terms ofequipment and internet access.
But there's also something andI'm going to talk a lot about
this called the proximity bias.
And the proximity bias is, it'salso been called the go getter
bias. So okay, so who's in theoffice with the boss that the
boss sees you? There's a biasthere to think, oh, that person
is working really hard and theperson who's remote and what are
(09:55):
they
Julia Campbell (09:56):
scooping off or the person that's staying till
7pm As opposed to the personthat's super productive, leaving
it three,
Beth Kanter (10:04):
Yes, exactly. And then, so you got to think about
who gets to be in the office,when if we're going to go to
flexibility schedules, you know,a couple days in the office a
couple days out. And also, ifwe're going to give people what
their preferences are. And if wethink about this, women, one
foot more flexible workspaces,um, you and I both know the
reason why, why is your doorlocked,
Julia Campbell (10:25):
my door is literally locked right now.
Exactly.
Beth Kanter (10:28):
Because it's in its way, you know, it's so much
easier to be a mom, and workwhen you have flex workplace
that isn't having to go into theoffice. And also, there are
studies showing that people ofcolor have a preference for
working remotely, becausethey're not dealing with a
slight onslaught ofmicroaggressions. So you think
about all of that. And then youthink about the proximity bias,
(10:49):
you know, you can end up havingtwo classes of employees and
advancing certain certain onesover others. So people have to
start thinking about, you know,it's really about the
deliverables. It's not about thescreen time, you have to
thoughtfully Think about yourflexibility schedules, you know,
when you're going to be in theoffice, who else is going to be
in the office? It startsthinking about rethinking
physical space. Well, everybodyhad their own desk, who gets a
(11:12):
side office? Or is it going tobe we're going to transform the
office really just for in facein person interaction? And then
I think we really have to getbetter at figuring out, like,
how we do our work together, orour culture, you know, the way
things get done? And how do wedivide between real time work,
which is synchronous andasynchronous synchronous work? I
(11:34):
always mispronounce that word.
And then my husband shouts inthe background, the corrective,
Julia Campbell (11:39):
synchronous and asynchronous and
Beth Kanter (11:41):
I got it right. So it means that like, we're all
used to having the meeting inreal time face to face be the
central central place of how wegot work done. And that's going
to shift, we're going to go backto the way it was.
Julia Campbell (11:53):
No, I nor should we, I don't think No,
Beth Kanter (11:55):
not at all. Not at all. Because why should we give
up what we learn in terms offlexibility, because flexibility
is a key contributor to peoplefeeling well, having well being
at work, that flexibility isreally important. So people can
maintain that work life balance.
Julia Campbell (12:10):
So I think you know, how nonprofits are like
steering a cruise ship, to getthem to change to get them to
adapt from the status quo. Andthat's just sometimes because of
budgets, sometimes because ofcapacity, sometimes because of
board members, sometimes becauseof skepticism. But what are some
(12:31):
tips that you have for managers?
For people that really want toavoid this proximity bias? They
want to be inclusive, they wantto have a vibrant hybrid team,
what are some tips andstrategies you can give them?
Beth Kanter (12:46):
That's a really great question. Now we're
talking about changing cultureor weight the way things we do
around here, and that's kind oflike, you know, you don't see
it, right. It's not like, youcheck it off the list. It's not
like how to write a grantproposal, or how to send out a
tweet. It's about purpose,values, behaviors, recognition,
rituals, and cues. And where thestress happens is, when there's
(13:10):
a disconnect between values, wesay, we're going to do this, but
our behaviors are different. SoI think it's time to really
start with kind of intentionalconversations around culture,
and things like, for example,like what are our values,
articulate those and then relatethem to the different kinds of
behaviors around getting workdone. That's communication,
(13:33):
collaboration, feedback, makingdecisions, being inclusive,
handling conflict, handling, howyou prioritize work, and also
how you measure performance, andthen coming up with plans around
that, based out of thatconversation. So you're, in a
sense, creating new norms for ahybrid workplace. And it's
great, because it's like areset, this is a great time to
(13:56):
kind of really be intentionalabout that. Now, when you create
new behaviors as part ofculture, it's kind of like
creating new habits, right, youknow, you know, New Year's, you
know, we say, I'm going to lose10 pounds, and I'm gonna start
running 10 miles a day, that,you know, it doesn't always
happen. So I think it has tohappen. And when these baby
steps, so for example, let's saythat there's some norms, there's
(14:20):
a value that you talk about,that we're going to listen to
everybody and give everyonevoice and be inclusive, right.
So maybe that comes a norm thatgoes on your meeting agendas.
And you say those out loudbefore you have your meeting.
And then the thing that you say,how well do we do and it's this
learning and this kind offeedback loop while you're
practicing it until it becomespart of the way you do things
(14:43):
around here.
Julia Campbell (14:43):
Absolutely.
walking the walk and not justarticulating your values and
putting them on your website,but really integrating them into
every meeting into everyinteraction. Yes. Oh, I love
that. Okay, so there are 10,000different topics that I want to
pick Your brain on because wehave you here whatever's left of
us. Oh, no, but I, we weretalking earlier. And I do think
(15:07):
that nonprofits, event planners,fundraisers people want to know,
they asked me all the time. AndI asked you before and I would
love your opinion again, what doyou feel is the future? for
events for conferences forfundraisers? What do you think,
hybrid virtual in person?
Beth Kanter (15:28):
I've been grappling with this because one of my main
jobs is to facilitate aconvening per foundation. And we
had to go virtual this year. Andwe're now planning for 2023. And
we're asking this question, andI'm also looking into, you know,
what's out there? So I thinkit's a couple of things. I don't
think there's a set answer tothat. Because there's so many
things we don't know like aboutwhat the public health
(15:49):
requirements are going to beright? I do hear these
murmurings around, we want toget, you know, we're gonna get
back face to face, we're gonnaget back to the, you know, we'll
see you and I have to, I want tosee you, Julia, I want to see
you at the conferences we usedto go to and be able to give you
a hug and like, have a glass ofwine with you, or whatever, you
Julia Campbell (16:07):
know, our gin and tonic like we did in San
Diego,
Beth Kanter (16:11):
and tonic, and I had a white wine maybe. But I
think what's going to happen isthat there may be smaller in
person events, but there's gonnabe hybrid components to them.
And so we might have punter andcontent as easy as we know how
to do that live stream, right?
And then have a chat going onand be able to have someone in
the room who can integrate thepeople from afar to the speakers
in the room, you know,monitoring the chat and
(16:35):
verbalize the question to thespeaker. What's really exciting
me and what I'm looking at arewhat are all the ways that you
can do hybrid in smaller groupsthat are interactive things that
aren't like just a webinar? Likehow can you integrate both like
in the room sticky notes withvirtual sticky notes, lower
bound creative processes, likeremember the session we did with
(16:55):
the
Julia Campbell (16:57):
like the posters, the sticky notes where
we had the four corners? Yeah,groups? How do you do that?
virtually?
Beth Kanter (17:03):
Yeah, it's hard.
But there's, there are sometools that you can do it. It's
easier if it's all virtual,honestly, because I've done a
lot of that over the last 18months, virtual sticky notes and
kind of design thinking kinds ofprocesses, but it's how do you
do that when there's some peoplein the room and some people also
remotely and I think it comesdown to really good bridge
moderation and bridgefacilitation. So that
(17:25):
facilitator, that responsibilityis to make sure that the people
in the room are connecting withthe people who are remote that
so it's inclusive.
Julia Campbell (17:34):
So it's really being thoughtful and strategic.
It's almost like how peopleshould be planning conferences,
even if they're in person,making sure it's a great
experience for all of theattendees.
Beth Kanter (17:45):
Yeah, we know, I'm remembering now that conference,
wherever we met in DC, Iremember, I'm thinking like it
was even earlier than 2017. ButI remember at one point, and
Tim, and it might have been evenbefore Amy, they were doing some
live, remote NTC. And they wereall designed as live broadcasts.
(18:08):
And they came to me we want todo your session, which was a
training session, it wascompletely interactive. Like we
were doing, having people lineup in four corners, and all
that. And all of a sudden therehere's, you know, a laptop with
a bunch of people. So we had toassign one person to that
laptop, who managed who managedthe chat, one of our speakers,
(18:28):
and then also brought the laptopover to the small group. Yeah,
and could facilitate theconversation, because otherwise
it wouldn't work. Hey, there,
Julia Campbell (18:36):
I'm interrupting this episode to share an
absolutely free training that Icreated that getting nonprofits
of all sizes, big results. sureyou've been spending hours on
social media, but what can youactually show for it? With all
this posting and instagrammingand tick talking? Does it really
translate into action? In myfree training, I'll show you
(18:58):
exactly how to take people frompassive fans to passionate
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media content that actuallyconverts head on over to
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Again, that's nonprofits thatconvert calm and start building
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(19:21):
right now, without a big team,lots of tech overwhelm or
getting stuck on the question.
What do I do next? Let me showyou how it's done. I can't wait
to see what you create.
(19:41):
Another topic that I want totalk about especially going
into, I was saying pandemicadjacent post pandemic next
normal, new normal, whatever wewant to call it is self care,
avoiding overwhelm and avoidingburnout. So you wrote the book
the happy, healthy nonprofitstrategy. For him back without
burnout in 2016. But that seemsmore relevant now than ever. So
(20:06):
can you talk about self care andhow nonprofits can practice self
care why it's an essential pieceof doing effective work?
Beth Kanter (20:15):
Sure, that's a topic that's near and dear to my
heart. So I wrote the book in2015, published it in 2016,
right after Trump was elected,and initially in the beginning
needed it then, right, andpeople didn't want to talk about
this, it was a taboo topic, wedon't talk about burnout. That's
a soft skill, no one want totalk about well being in the
workplace and the nonprofit andwithin the nonprofit grounds. So
(20:37):
I was running out, and at thetime, and I was seeing people
burn out. So I'm like, what'sgoing on here. And certainly,
like everything else, thatpandemic has really accelerated,
and accentuated and made kind oflike our, the way we are in the
sector, because we're sopassionate about it, you know,
we tend to overwork because ofour passion, and that it's a
passion isn't a sustainableresource, we have to renew it.
(21:00):
And also, this kind of work fromhome has like gotten work life
balance really out of kilter.
It's like, do I can't rememberdo I work at home? Or do I live
at work? You know, and and, youknow, it's I was showing you
slides, I would show you theslide of a bar graph that shows
how many hours on average peoplework per week in different
countries pre pandemic, comparedto post pandemic, we can link
Julia Campbell (21:23):
to it if it's on your blog.
Beth Kanter (21:25):
Sure. And, but basically, we're working longer
hours, because because we'reworking from home, in part
because, you know, we couldn'tgo out, you know, so what else
we're going to do work. And Ithink we, it's so easy for us to
carry that into where we'regoing. And the other thing
that's happening is the we arein the midst of a kind of
(21:46):
public, a mental health crisis,depression, anxiety, all of
those things are on the rise.
But you know, because of thepandemic, because we've been
closed off from a lot of oursupport systems. And then
there's another like kind ofcondition, Adam Grant called it
languishing,
Julia Campbell (22:04):
you might love Adam Grant, languishing, I read,
I saw that talk, or I read thatarticle that described exactly
how I have been feeling. And metoo, it's
Beth Kanter (22:14):
kind of blah, not motivated, you feel dull. And so
the idea is, is that we need tolike go from languishing to
flourishing, which is reallybeing alive. And like
flourishing, I think of washflowers, I think of gardens
growing and you know, and sothat requires us taking care of
ourselves doing things likegetting enough sleep, creating
moments of joy in our life,getting enough exercise, working
(22:38):
to, you know, putting boundariesaround things, boundary
management's really important.
As we both know, yes, with yourfamily, and both around digital.
So really putting thesepractices in place, so we can
switch this languaginglanguishing to flourishing.
Julia Campbell (22:54):
I love that. And I love following you on
Instagram On Facebook, seeingyour walks in San Francisco. So
how did you practice self care?
During COVID? What are some waysthat you did
Beth Kanter (23:08):
three things, I'll come back to the moments of joy.
I installed a hummingbird feederon the window in our house. And
maybe you've seen some of thephotos of the hummingbirds and,
and what I learned about them,they're very territorial. And we
had this one bird. And Anna'sHummingbird with the Red Hood. I
his name was Billy bird, and hewould chase away all the other
(23:29):
birds. So I read that if you putup more feeders, there's too
much for them to try to liketake over. So I put up another
five feeders and so he couldn'tcontrol them all. And so now we
have more and there's a littlebit more harmony. So incorporate
moments of joy. The second thingis change your view. And my
husband I have this thing likego to the coast stay like well
decide like at two o'clock inthe afternoon. We're 45 minutes
(23:52):
from the Pacific Ocean and it'sgorgeous. We'll just take off
and go to the coast. Go for awalk, go stay with the waves.
It's healing. Sometimes I'vejust like I'm going to take my
laptop and my phone and just gowork like in Half Moon Bay.
Because I have that flexibility.
I love
Julia Campbell (24:08):
Half Moon Bay.
Oh my
Beth Kanter (24:10):
Yeah, so and then the third thing is this walking
I have my fake commute. So Iwalk every morning and there is
research that just came out fromthe Microsoft Human Factors lab
that if you're taking even afive minute break to walk around
the block or something that thathelps fight that zoom fatigue so
(24:30):
I've just continued my walking15,000 steps a day on the Fitbit
no matter what
Julia Campbell (24:35):
no way oh my gosh for my hero I got a Fitbit
for Christmas and I don't wearit because I started to feel bad
about a few steps that I that Igot. I tried to take a lot of
walks though.
Beth Kanter (24:48):
Well, I guess there's like three to you know,
there are three differentpersonalities they get Fitbit
some they get it and stopbecause of that others track for
a while until they know likewhat 10,000 steps feels like and
then others they get totallyobsessed like If me, yeah, I
have like roots in myneighborhood that I know that's
1000 steps, I can do that infive minutes, or I have 20
minutes, I'm going to go out andI can get another 5000 steps.
(25:10):
And I'm just obsessed with it.
Since 2013, so yes,
Julia Campbell (25:17):
and you've always talked about it, and
you've been really public aboutit. You've also been, I love
promoting walking meetings, evenbefore COVID calling really
strolling meetings now strollingmeetings, yes. Because not
everyone can walk so some peoplecan roll so you can stroll.
Exactly. So I would be remiss ifI had one of the preeminent
(25:40):
digital thought leaders in thenonprofit sector here. And I
didn't ask, what do you see assome of the most important and
noteworthy future Digital Trendsfor nonprofits?
Beth Kanter (25:51):
Oh, that's such a great question.
Julia Campbell (25:54):
You can segue into maybe a little teaser for
your,
Beth Kanter (25:58):
for our Well, I think, just initially, some of
what we've been talking about.
I've seen the pandemic becauseit wasn't a choice. We've seen
so much movement on digitaltransformation, the nonprofit
sector and people realizing Yes,we can do this, and the
resistance kind of melt away.
And that's a good thing. But wealso had like frictionless
(26:18):
adoption. So which meant thatsome weren't necessarily
adopting strategically, I'llgive an example. Like, now we
could put our services online.
So we're not just focused on thelocal geographic community, we
can serve other people, but theydidn't really think about that
in a strategy way. So I thinkcoming, people are maybe going
back and rethinking businessmodels, or as we were talking
(26:39):
before, about rethinking the waythey do their work to
incorporate this hybrid, newtechnologies that are coming in.
They're already here, automationand artificial intelligence,
Allison find and I are writing abook, and we call them smart
technologies. So we're writing abook called The Smart nonprofit,
staying human centered in anautomated world. And we're
looking at the impact thatautomation will have on
(27:02):
nonprofits fundraisingprogramming back office. And
it's not a book that looks atall the bright side, because
there's so many unintendedconsequences and unintended
harms that can happen. And solooking at processes, like you
know, how to do threat modeling,how to figure out what those
unintended unintendedconsequences are, how do you,
(27:23):
like have a thoughtful way ofstaying human centered with this
while keeping your ethics at thehighest moral standard, and then
ways that you can really iteratean inch your way into using the
tech versus like, kind of fullon adoption? So that's what the
book is going to cover withinitial examples. And what we're
(27:43):
seeing we're still in the earlystages,
Julia Campbell (27:46):
right? Did you see any great examples of
digital transformation ornonprofits sort of adopting
digital incorporating it intotheir work during the pandemic?
Or have you seen any innovationsin the last year,
Beth Kanter (28:02):
I saw one that and we looked at it in the book, and
I'll get the cool side, and thenI'll give the this didn't
happen. But the potentialunintended consequence. So I
think I might have been Bostonactually aware, one of the food
banks, because of that theheight of the pandemic, a lot of
the food banks have volunteers,a lot of those button volunteers
tend to be older, so theyweren't coming into the food
bank to help pack boxes and doinventory. So they had robotics
(28:26):
come in to do some of thevolunteer tasks of packing boxes
with food and kind of doing theinventory and also to sanitize,
which I thought was really cool.
I think now, like one wouldwonder, okay, so as things
change, do you keep this andjust go into default mode? Or do
you actually kind of look aroundand talk to those volunteers
about how do they feel aboutbeing replaced by robots? Right,
(28:47):
well, that disenfranchise them.
And we know people who volunteerthen tend to be donors. So it's
thinking about like, okay, now,as we integrate something like
this, how do they co boteffectively alongside, you know,
the humans, you know, how doyou, you know, how do you like,
figure out like, what getsautomated, what goes to the
(29:09):
machine, what goes to the human,it's not totally replacing the
human job, but it's, you know,working together, and you have
to prepare your people for thatprepare your processes, but I
thought that was there were alot of innovations directly
related to COVID. Like even thevaccine research was
accelerated, in part becausethey use machine learning
algorithms to kind of predictiveanalytics to take a look at,
(29:32):
like what combination ofproteins might work. So that was
accelerated. There's also itdidn't work great in the
beginning, but algorithms arounddeploying the vaccine initially,
we're seeing a more the use ofautomation in terms of now
having vaccine registries, thosesorts of things. I love that.
Julia Campbell (29:53):
I love that. I want to just ask you one more
question just to kind of getyour input on this. How do you
counsel nonprofits that areafraid of change? How do you
counsel them and consult andjust give them tips on how to
manage the constant constanttidal waves of change that we're
going through? Especially withtechnology? Oh, gosh, oh, well,
Beth Kanter (30:17):
we have to address it, you know, change as hard. As
we know, like, even when I'mdoing training, I usually start
with a exercise around to thinkabout all you know, how does all
this change make you feel?
Right? put
Julia Campbell (30:30):
that out there, let
Beth Kanter (30:31):
it out? And then what do you need to do to you
know, what do you need to do tomake I must do x, right? And
then when it's all said anddone, you know, what's the
outcome just so just sort ofthink about, like, the why
you're doing it, the benefit, tounderstand how the change is
impacting you and to be able todevelop strategies to like,
(30:52):
buffer yourself from thatdirectly. But first, you have to
recognize that it's there.
Recognize it's there and not getcaught in it.
Julia Campbell (31:00):
I love that.
Thank you. Well, that thank youso much. I want to know, how can
people reach you? How can theyget in touch with you and learn
more about you?
Beth Kanter (31:09):
www dot Beth kanter.org on the web. And then
you can also always find me onTwitter at Cantor are also on
LinkedIn.
Julia Campbell (31:17):
Awesome, fantastic. Thanks so much. Check
out all of Beth's books. We willlink to them in the show notes.
We will link to them anywherethat we have this episode, you
know published. So and I wouldlove to have you and Allison on
to talk about the book,artificial intelligence and
automation. What's it called thesmart nonprofit?
Beth Kanter (31:37):
Yeah, staying human centered in an automated world.
Julia Campbell (31:40):
I love that.
Just a quick question. Did youever hear about Stephen shaddix?
book? robots? Terriblefundraisers? Yes, yes. Great
book. Yes. So shout out toSteven Shattuck that made me
think of that I thought that wasI thought that was really I
thought that was it. Yeah,
Beth Kanter (31:55):
the robots can take your donors out to lunch.
Exactly.
Julia Campbell (31:59):
All right. Well, thanks so much. And we'll have
you back on the podcast. I hopeso. Take care. Great, thanks.
Well, hey there. I wanted to saythank you for tuning in to my
show, and for listening all theway to the end. If you really
(32:20):
enjoyed today's conversation,make sure to subscribe to the
show in your favorite podcastapp, and you'll get new episodes
downloaded as soon as they comeout. I would love if you left me
a rating or review because thistells other people that my
podcast is worth listening to.
And then me and my guests canreach even more earbuds and
create even more impact. Sothat's pretty much it. I'll be
(32:42):
back soon with a brand newepisode. But until then, you can
find me on Instagram at JuliaCampbell seven, seven. keep
changing the world. Nonprofitunicorn
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