Struggling to feel close to your partner in a long-term relationship? Tired of fighting about the same things over and over—like dishes, chores, or who's doing bedtime? You’re not alone—and the issue probably isn’t what you think it is.
In this episode of Not Your Therapist, I sit down with couples and individual therapist Amy Phillips, one of our seasoned clinicians at Evolution Wellness in Wilmington, NC. We dive deep into what drives emotional intimacy in long-term relationships, why couples often feel disconnected over time, and what to do when your communication keeps turning into conflict.
We unpack the psychology behind emotional connection, explore the Gottman concept of “bids for connection” (and why they’re so important), and talk about how simple shifts in attention, tone, and timing can bring the spark back to your relationship. Whether you're in the honeymoon stage or a decade in, this episode gives real, practical advice for building stronger communication and connection with your partner—without needing to overhaul your whole life.
Plus, we get into:
- Why your arguments often have nothing to do with the surface issue
- How to tell when your partner is making a bid for connection
- Ways to respond to those bids and repair emotional disconnection
- The importance of balancing quality time and alone time
- How small daily interactions build lasting emotional intimacy
If you're in a long-term relationship and want to deepen connection, improve communication, and feel more like a team again—this one’s a must-listen.
💬 Want to work with Amy? If you’re a resident of North Carolina, she offers both in-person and telehealth sessions through EvolutionWellnessNC.com.
💻 Want to work with me, Kayla? I take a limited number of 1:1 coaching clients—learn more at kaylareilly.com/workwithme.
🎧 And don’t forget to subscribe and binge more episodes of Not Your Therapist—packed with mental health truth bombs to level up your relationships, mindset, and life.
Feeling overstimulated and overwhelmed? Grab my free Anxiety Reset Checklist—a no-BS, therapist-approved guide to calming your mind fast.
👉 Grab your FREE Audio Training: Get Unstuck- 3 Strategies to Break Free from Unhealthy Patterns
👉 Follow me on social @notyourtherapist.kayla
👉 Ask me a question hello@kaylareilly.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome back to Not your Therapist the podcast where
we're getting real aboutrelationships, mental health,
parenting and everything inbetween.
I'm your host, kayla Riley.
I'm a licensed therapist, agroup practice founder and your
go-to for a little science.
A bunch of stories from my timeas a therapist, a client and a
(00:24):
leader in the mental healthspace, and I'm going to serve it
all up with a big old dash ofsass.
Today's episode was such a funone to record.
I'm sitting down with my friendand colleague, Amy Phillips, a
couples and individual therapistat Evolution Wellness, the
group practice I founded righthere in Wilmington, north
Carolina.
Amy and I have been workingtogether for years and you'll
(00:47):
totally hear that in ourconversation.
We're laughing, we're cuttingup, but we're also deep diving
into what makes relationshipsactually work.
We're talking about what drivesemotional connection, why you
and your partner might befighting on repeat and what the
heck a bid for connection is.
Hint, it's very important ifyou don't want to get a divorce.
(01:09):
So this one's got humor, it'sgot heart and some seriously
helpful takeaways for anyonewanting to build a stronger
relationship.
I loved recording it and Ithink you're going to love
listening.
Let's dive in.
Love listening, let's dive in.
Have you ever seen a couplefight at like a restaurant?
(01:30):
Yes, I have, and oh my God, Ilove it.
One because I love angrycouples, it's like a thing.
But I love it because me and myhusband will be out on a date
(01:50):
and we'll be like they'refighting.
They're totally fighting.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You know, you can like feel it from across the
room.
I'm sure that's true for whenyou're a couples therapist too.
Oh yeah, like certain couplescome in and I'm like, oh hey
guys, how's it going?
And they're like giving me oneword answers and there's just
this like tension and I'm likewaiting for someone to say
something and it's like okay,what has happened between now?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
and our last.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Oh yeah, You're fighting.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I like to be like oh, you're fighting, Okay yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
They walk in the room with just this heaviness and
they're just very like rigidbody language.
They're sitting on oppositeends of the couch not looking at
each other.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Does that pay off, though, and like you're able to
actually work through maybe notthrough the argument, but you're
actually able to end thesession in a better place and
they come in like pissed off andone word answers, and then
they're leaving and it's like,okay, they're going to be all
right.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, absolutely Like being able to deescalate, being
able to talk about, you know,the conflict or issue that
happened, being able to processthat incident and making sure
each person is able to be heardand understood and validated.
That tension, just like lifts.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So what do you think it looks like for a couple?
If I asked you like hey, whatdoes an emotionally connected,
healthy couple look like?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
They are able to spend time together, quality
time together, but also have abalance of individual time
together, and that be okay.
They're able to listen andvalidate and they care and value
the other person's perspective,and that is when I work with
couples.
(03:29):
That oftentimes is.
The biggest issue incommunication is that we tend to
be speakers because we all wantto be heard and have our point
of view understood, but we arenot great on that listening part
.
So I give all of my coupleswarnings of like hey, being the
listener is way, way harder thanbeing the speaker.
(03:49):
Just.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
FYI, I so agree with that.
I love that metaphor of like.
It's like two people trying toplay football and they're both
throwing the football at thesame time and nobody's catching
it.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, that's a great analogy and nobody's catching it
.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, that's a great analogy.
Yeah, because that's reallywhat it looks like when couples
are not communicating very well.
Can you share an example nonames, obviously, but can you
share an example of a situationwhere a couple came in and they
weren't vibing, they weren'tcommunicating very well and they
weren't like vibing, theyweren't communicating very well.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think most of my couples likeit's so funny, because the
majority of the time whencouples come in, like probably
90% of couples are like oh, Iwant to improve communication
and conflict management.
Yeah, and like what they reallyneed to in order to get there
is that connection too.
Oh, wow, that's important.
Tell me more about that.
Yeah, and like what they reallyneed to in order to get there
is that connection too.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Oh, wow, that's important.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Tell me more about that.
Yeah, so when I have an intakewith a couple, you know I'm
asking a lot of questions, kindof getting history,
understanding why they're there,and like I always ask these two
questions how do you twoconnect and spend time together
and what do you?
What are your individualhobbies?
Those are the hardest questionsI ask couples, cause when I ask
(05:12):
those they just kind of havethis blank look on their face.
Or they look at me like I'vejust grown a second head and
they're like what do you mean wespend time together?
Or they just look at each otherand shrug their shoulders and
then they're like we don't.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I'm just sitting here thinking like I guess it's kind
of obvious If they're notspending time together, then
they're not going to have thatconnection.
But can you talk to me aboutthe other part?
That was really interesting,what you said Like how do you
spend time independently, likeby yourself?
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
That's so powerful?
Because I think a lot of peopledon't see that as an element of
relationship health.
But it is, yeah, because it'sall about having balance right.
Even though we are in thisrelationship, in this couplehood
, a lot of people viewthemselves as a unit, which they
definitely are but then when wemake that relationship kind of
our whole identity, then westart to lose our individual
(06:13):
self-identity, which is nothealthy.
We want there to be balance, sowe don't want to be like so
enmeshed, like the only thing wehave is our partner, but we
also don't want to be so distantfrom our partner that we're not
taking the time to spendtogether and connect.
So there's that healthy balanceof creating space in all of
(06:34):
these different areas and facetsof our life.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Okay, that's cool, okay, so you start with those
questions and that alreadystumps people.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, you would be surprised.
It's like it's notcommunication.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You need it's connection Because also when
we're not feeling connected withour partner and we're not
feeling emotionally safe and theability to be vulnerable, then
that's going to impact how we'reable to communicate with our
partner as well.
So it's like the foundations,like hey, you need this before
we start talking about having aconversation about your
(07:08):
mother-in-law who is a jerk orwhatever the conflict might be.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, yeah, because there's going to be those tough
conversations, we're going tohave emotional reactions and
that's totally normal.
I think a lot of peoplemisunderstand conflict and
communications and how that canbe a very normal and healthy
part of a relationship and thatit's how we manage that that
(07:33):
makes a difference and mostimpacts the relationship, and so
when we aren't connected withour partner, we are much more
likely and more easily going tobecome dysregulated.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Oh, that's helpful to hear that, I think.
So.
Let's say there are twopartners and they're super,
super distant and estranged.
It feels like a lot to cometogether when you start working
with.
Is it what, if they both work,they have kids, and they tell
(08:07):
you, like I don't, we don't havetime for that, like, are there
smaller ways to connect?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Like connection, or rituals ofconnection, as the Gottmans put
it.
So the Gottman method is whatI'm trained in.
It's an evidence-based couplestherapy model.
Gottmans are two psychologistswho spent their life researching
couples and what leads couplesto stay together versus break
(08:32):
apart, and so those rituals ofconnections, or bids as the
Gottmans call it, can besomething really, really simple.
It doesn't have to look likethose planned and organized
going out for a couple hour datenights like every week or every
other week.
It can look like how a couplesays goodbye to each other in
(08:54):
the morning when one is leavingfor work.
How do they greet each otherwhen they come home for work.
What do their rituals aroundmeals look like?
Like we all have to eat, sositting down and having a meal
together is a very easy way toconversate and connect with our
partner, sending each otherlittle fun like texts during the
(09:17):
day.
You know people, spicy texts,yeah, or not spicy, but yeah,
that definitely helps couplesfeel close and connected.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But even like, hey, look at this funny meme, like I
thought of you, that's better.
My head went immediately todirty nasty, sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Which is okay.
But yeah, even a lot of couplesfeel so distant that that feels
very weird to them.
And even when you first startworking with couples on
connection.
They can really struggle withfalling through on those things
that we talk about in sessionoutside of session.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
That makes a lot of sense.
That makes because it's almostlike a hurdle, like especially
if, yeah, I guess, if you'rehaving like some serious
disagreements like that, involveyour values, like, hey, I guess
, if you're having like someserious disagreements like that,
involve your values, like, hey,I don't want to spend every
Christmas with your parents, Iwant to create our own rituals
and our own, you know, and maybethe other partner really wants
(10:18):
to spend every holiday with thein-laws and if that's like a
gridlocked conflict, it's goingto be really hard to think about
kissing my husband on his wayout to work every morning.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, or vice versa.
Like, if it's really tough fortwo partners to spend time
together in those simple andsmall ways, then what's going to
make you want to listen andunderstand or communicate
respectfully with this person?
Yeah, because you're not.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's like a machine.
It all kind of impacts eachother.
Mm-hmm.
Do you always start with thelike connection stuff first, or
do you start with the conflictstuff?
Like where do you go as acouples therapist?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Typically the connection stuff first.
So after the assessment portionwith couples I go over with
them the sound relationshiphouse model which is kind of
like the foundation of theGottman method, and I explain
each of those levels which thefirst three levels of this house
is all about connection andfriendship foundation in the
(11:21):
relationship and thatcommunication and conflict
management is like level numberfive.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So we have a conversation.
I mean it makes sense, right,Like when you got together you
didn't start talking about bigissues in the first place.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We have that conversation oflike why connection is so
important and how this helps usbe able to communicate with one
another better.
And then I ask for feedbackfrom couples.
It's like, okay, what do youthink you know you're doing well
on with these levels and wheredo you think you want to focus
on and improve?
And, Kayla, I've literally hadcouples be like we need to start
(11:56):
from square one, or we're inthe basement, Amy, we're in the
fucking sub-basement, amy, we'renot even out.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
We're in the fucking sub-basement.
If we were in the CIA, amy,we'd be in level negative
sub-zero 20.
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, you know, you have to say for those couples,
at least they have goodawareness, yeah, yeah and
explaining it to them in thatway, I think, helps them
understand and helps get them tobecome more invested in
prioritizing that connectionwith their partner.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
When my husband and I have gone to couples therapy, I
think something that has keptus before from going or from
wanting to go and you have thislike resistance, you feel is
that it feels so big.
It feels so big sometimes Likewe had at one point earlier in
our marriage.
We had so much we disagreed onand we had such a hard time like
(12:51):
finding compromise on a lot ofour different values.
Like we're night and day whenit comes to certain topics
politics, religion, family likewe are just totally on the
opposite end of the spectrum.
But I love that what you'resaying is a couple's therapist
if they're a good one, will kindof walk you through that like
(13:14):
hey, this is how relationshipsare built, this is how we heal
relationships.
Let's start here.
So it's like not up to thecouple, it's up to the therapist
to say like we don't have totackle all this.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, Because if we try to jump straight into that
communication and conflictmanagement, especially when
there are those like big issuetopics that the couple is
struggling with, if they don'thave that connection and that
friendship foundation couple isstruggling with, if they don't
have that connection and thatfriendship foundation?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
like sometimes that can do more harm than good.
That makes a lot of sense, well, and I think too it's funny
because I can see bothdirections leading to more of
like a friendship or aroommate's kind of vibe.
Like either, if we're too closeand the mystery's gone and the
desire's gone and I knoweverything about you and I'm
with you all the freaking time,that's going to feel like a best
friend, not a lover, and thenthe opposite.
(14:15):
That's kind of like obvious,right, if you and I are leading
totally separate lives and we'renever connecting, that can
totally contribute to a roommatevibe.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and some I see couples where that,
like being two together, is anissue.
I see that in a lot withcouples who work both work from
home, because if they both workfrom home they're always in the
home together.
I feel attacked, amy.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
You do what I feel attacked.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh I'm sorry, am I telling you out, kayla, I'm just
messing, I mean that's us, butgo ahead.
Go ahead.
Yeah, but, yeah so.
But sometimes couples can feellike, because they are around
each other all the time and theyhave that close proximity to
each other, that, oh, I spendall day with this person.
But just because you have thatproximity doesn't necessarily
mean you're connecting with thatperson either.
(15:08):
Ooh, good point.
And so I think couples can fallinto that pitfall when they do
have a schedule like that.
But you know, if you're notconversating, you're not
spending quality time together,then there isn't that connection
there, even if you are at thehouse all day.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Don't you think that's true?
For, like the TV trap?
Because like I remember seeinga lot of couples and it was like
, yeah, sure, we hang out atnight Like right, like we get
off work, we eat dinner and thenwe watch our favorite series,
and it's like I mean that has atime and a place, but if that's
the majority of how you spendtime with your partner, then
(15:46):
that's not great, because you'regoing into that autopilot.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You're like half watching this TV, half in your
phone and again just not reallyconnecting on a deeper level
with your partner by doing thatMm-hmm.
One thing that I like torecommend to all of my couples,
especially when we first startoff and couples are on board of
like, yeah, we need to work onconnection.
(16:10):
There's so many resources outthere that help couples with
connection, whether it's decksof cards with certain like
icebreaker questions, or I havea whole list of different apps
that couples can download ontheir phone and connect through
the app and with like the basefree version of this app, they
get like one question a day thatthey can both answer.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Oh, that's rad I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, it's super, super fun, like cause we stop
asking our partner those typesof fun questions, like when we
are communicating, we're talkingabout the stressors, we're
talking about the schedules,we're talking about household
chores, and so that doesn'tleave a whole lot of room for
just those fun, lightheartedconversations.
And so I love icebreakerquestions.
(16:56):
It's like do I know what mypartner's biggest fashion faux
pas was when they were growingup?
No, do I want to know thatabout.
My partner's biggest fashionfaux pas was when they were
growing up.
Do I want to know that about mypartner?
Absolutely yeah.
And so there's just all sortsof fun apps.
I had a client I was tellingthem about this and they were
like oh yeah, like we've donesomething like this before.
(17:17):
And it was an app.
It's called Someone and it'skind of like a Tamagotchi or
like one of those Giga pets thatlike you take care of.
You have this like egg and asyou answer these questions, like
you're caring and nurturingthis egg and it hatches into
like this bird that you and yourpartner are taking care of.
Oh, my God, I love that.
(17:38):
It's adorable, it's such athrowback to the 90s.
And then it was so funny.
This client was telling meabout this app and suddenly her
eyes got really big and wide andshe looks at her partner and
she goes our bird is probablydead.
(18:01):
Like yeah, because they hadneglected that bird and it was a
very funny moment, we had agood laugh.
But also like, how symbolic isthat?
Because, like, that bird isyour relationship and if you're
not taking time to nurture yourrelationship or to care for your
relationship, to connect inyour relationship, then odds are
(18:22):
your relationship is not goingto survive.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Oh, my gosh, yes, and I love that metaphor Gosh,
that's good.
What about the people who say Ifeel like one of the most
common things I have heard fromcouples and couples therapy is
shouldn't it be easy?
This sounds like a lot of workIf we were meant to be together,
shouldn't it feel easy?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, I get that too.
Or like I've had couples asklike is it normal for couples to
fight this much?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And it's like yes 100% and I think we put a lot of
pressure on our relationshipsnow than we ever did in the past
.
In the past there weren't cellphones and emails and working
from home, and I don't know.
It just feels like we expectour partners to be our best
(19:20):
friends, our co-parent, A lot oftimes our co-worker, if we're
working in the same space or inthe same, you know, job or
whatever co-house manager,bestie and lover all in one, and
it's like that's a lot ofpressure to put on one human
being.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, and I think a lot of couples can struggle with
like accepting the fact thatour partner is not going to be
able to meet all of our wantsand needs.
Nor should they have to yeahand just like we're not going to
be able to meet all of ourpartner's wants and needs, and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I think that's a big relief.
I think some people could feelthreatened by that, but I think
a better way to reframe it iswhat a relief Like.
You're your own person, getyour own hobbies, get your own
buds, get your own friends yeah,and that's going to make you
feel more fulfilled in your life, which is going to make me
(20:16):
desire you more and be moreattracted to you.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, absolutely to you, yeah, absolutely.
What about small grudges thatturn into like big, huge iron
walls With couples that I seethey're either one of which way.
They're either that couple whofights and have really escalated
(20:41):
fights, or they are that couplethat don't fight and tend to be
very conflict avoidant, and Ithink that is the more dangerous
couple, because at least thecouple that's fighting, at least
they're communicating in someway, shape or form.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
The passion's there, it's just in the wrong yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, wrong, yeah yeah.
And so, like that couple who'savoidant of that conflict, they
don't know how to be able toaddress things with their
partner.
And when we aren't able toaddress those things, those
things don't just magically goaway like they keep on happening
.
And so those behaviors that arebothering us are just going to
continue, and we are going tocontinue to try to ignore them
(21:25):
or shove them down.
And when that happens, that'swhen it festers and it builds up
resentment and eventually it'sgoing to explode.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, well, and I think what people don't realize.
Well, I mean, you can on anintelligent level, like
intellectually, you canunderstand this, but in an
emotional level it really doesfester, like if you hold
contempt for your partner or aresentment, it can start to
color everything your partnerdoes.
(21:56):
When I'm mad at my husband, Ican't even stand the way he
breathes, the way he walks intoa room, and I love this man,
I've known this man for a decade, but it colors everything when
I'm angry, and I think that'strue for these.
You know emotional wounds too,don't you think?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Absolutely yeah.
If we're not able to processthose wounds or those grudges,
then it's going to put thatwedge in the relationship and
create that distance anddisconnect.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Like rose colored glasses, except not rose, except
they're like black coloredglasses, doo-doo, brown colored
glasses.
In marriage, I think this ispretty common, right.
Like one or the other partnerjust doesn't feel comfortable
with opening up, or even likemaybe it's something one partner
(22:50):
did, or maybe it's fromchildhood where they're just not
an emotional talker.
I see this a lot in men, right,like I'm not just going to open
up and talk to you about myfeelings.
That's weird.
I'm not just going to open upand talk to you about my
feelings.
That's weird, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, and oftentimes they're either with another
avoidant conflict person soagain they're not talking, or
that avoidant conflict personwith someone who loves to talk
everything to death, or they canget very like, passionate and
escalated, and then they justkind of bulldoze their partner
100% the pursuer distancer LikeI need to take a break.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
No, we need to talk about this now.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Mm, hmm, yeah, and so talking with couples about the
calm down plan, which is acommunication intervention that
helps couples be able to takethat break when they're feeling
escalated or feeling shut down,is a really, really important
skill for everyone to have,because if one person becomes
(23:56):
dysregulated in a discussionwhich is normal, it's going to
happen, we have feelings.
That's okay, but if they don'tstop and take that break, then
they're going to get furtherescalated or further shut down,
and when one partner isdysregulated, it is much more
likely the other person is goingto get dysregulated.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
And then you're just in a hot, freaking mess.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, and then nothing is happening, nothing
good is happening, like that'swhen those four horsemen come up
.
So, like the Gottmans, identifythese like communication
blunders that we want to avoid.
So criticism, defensiveness,contempt and stonewalling, and
like, if any of those arepopping up in a discussion or
conversation, someone's eitheron their way to becoming
(24:45):
dysregulated or are alreadydysregulated.
And when we are dysregulated weare not in the headspace to be
able to listen and understandour partner or to be able to use
those skills that help partnerswith communication.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Right, yeah, like your brain isn't online anymore.
Maybe shut up and stop diggingyourself a hole.
I'm bad for that.
Like if I'm dysregulated, I'mgoing to say some hurtful shit
and then I'm going to feelguilty later and then the guilt
is going to.
You know what I mean.
Like it's like thisperpetuating cycle.
So the better thing is topreemptively have, like you said
(25:22):
, like this little calm downplan.
What have your calm down plans?
And, personal note what is yourcalm down?
What's your go-to calm downstrategy when someone pisses you
off, a partner or otherwise?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I'm going for a walk or some type of physical
exercise, like I've got to dosomething.
I have this excess energy in mybody, I'm very hyperactive and
fidgety and I need to like getit out.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Oh, my God, yes, well , and it removes you from the
situation.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, which can make some people feel very
uncomfortable.
So some people can get very-.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
That abandonment trigger.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
When there's that break or timeout called and
oftentimes I hear from clientsit's because they have that fear
that the conversation is notgoing to be brought back to or
to be continued and it's justgoing to get swept under the rug
.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So that's good point.
Good point, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, absolutely, because, like again those
avoidant conflict, people cansometimes intentionally or
unintentionally use that breakto like skedaddle from that
uncomfortable conversation Avoidavoid.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And then you bring it back up and they're like why do
you always have to bring up badstuff?
And you're like we have toresolve it.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, or else nothing is going to change.
And so one of the biggest, abig part of that calm down plan
is not only calling for thatbreak and doing something
intentional to be able toregulate and self-soothe.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
But then coming back to that conversation, I always
say that the rule is whoevercalls the time out has to
eventually not right then, buteventually give the other
partner a time when they'rewilling to talk about it.
Yeah, because my husband'sreally good at saying now's not
the time and nighttime's not thetime, and morning time's not
(27:23):
the time and the weekend's notthe time and it's not the time
and nighttime's not the time,and morning time's not the time
and the weekend's not the time,and vacation is not the time.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
And I'm like then when is the time and, I think,
accepting that there is nevergoing to be a perfect time.
But what is the best time to beable to talk about this?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
because it needs to be talked about yeah, fair, I
like that a lot and I think thatlike settles the like
abandonment trigger in the otherpartner, because you're like,
okay, this isn't being sweptunder the rug and ignored, we're
going to have a time to talkabout it, but it's going to be
in a time and place where it'sgood for both of us.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And I think that can be helpful just in general,
versus like springing a toughconversation on a partner and
they're like whoa, where is thiscoming from?
I always suggest to coupleslike hey, if you have something
you need to talk about with yourpartner, approach it.
Like hey, I would like to talkabout ABC.
When would be a good time foryou?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Oh, that sounds so mature and grown.
Yes, that's so mature and grown.
I like to wait until we'resettling down for bed and then
saying here's this emotionalproblem that's going to cause us
to both.
My husband laughs.
I used to do that, I'm a lotbetter now.
But my husband laughs becausewhen he lays down some nights
he's like are you going to bringup like a big emotional issue?
(28:41):
And I'm like, no, I don't dothat anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
She's like halfway ready for it.
Like what's this emotional bombthat she's going to drop on me
tonight?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Emotional bombs.
I love that.
Don't do that.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, no, but yeah.
But that helps, like the otherperson kind of be ready and
prepared.
They're expecting thisconversation.
By planning a specific time forit, both partners can be again
prepared and can kind of thinkof what they want to say and how
they want to say it regardingthat specific topic.
Or I'll have couples.
(29:20):
They're like Amy, we fight likeevery day and I'm like, well,
what are you fighting about?
They're like I don't evenremember what the fight was
about.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Various things how loud he crunches his chips and
why she doesn't put her coffeecup in the fricking dishwasher.
It's so funny because it's likethese are all the things you're
fighting about.
But what are you reallyfighting about?
Can you drop down into a spaceof like and I think that's the
work right, like dropping downand being like okay, I'm
(29:50):
fighting because I don't feelvalued or I feel criticized or
whatever it might be, but I feellike there's do you remember
what it was for that couple?
Like, what were they reallyfighting about?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I think so with this couple.
The wife was one of thosepeople who would be described as
sensitive or emotional, so shehad very intense emotions, would
cry very easily, would cry veryeasily.
The husband, on the other hand,was a very like logical thinker
(30:26):
and really struggles withrelating or understanding her
emotions.
So that was their bigdisconnect.
Like if wife would come up witha problem, he would kind of
unintentionally invalidate ordismiss her emotions about this
problem.
So she was feeling unheard, hewould get really defensive and
things would just escalate.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Isn't it funny, too, how we always attract that
partner that's going to push onthe place where we are needing
to heal.
Always Like always.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, I call that concept.
I learned it from anotherpodcast I listened to and the
speaker called it like brokentoes how we all have broken toes
from events from our past thatwe carry with us these like
inner wounds, and our partner isinevitably going to step on
those broken toes.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I like Harville Hendricks.
He wrote Getting the Love youWant and he developed Imago
therapy, which I love.
His quote that stands out to meis intimacy is a trauma trigger
, and I think that's so profound.
Intimacy is a trauma triggerbecause the closer we get to
(31:41):
someone, the more we reveal allof ourselves.
And guess what we don't revealto most of the outside world?
Our crap.
Yeah, and we so lovingly savethat for the most important
person in our lives, the personwho is living life next to us,
like alongside us.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, absolutely, and funny, you mentioned Imago.
So I actually did theparent-child dialogue with this
couple and it's so beautiful tosee, like the way that they're
talking about it and thosemoments really make me proud of
my clients when they're able touse those skills, when they're
able to be vulnerable and,especially with an intervention
(32:25):
like that, how it's much moreabstract and some people can
really struggle withinterventions like that or like
gestalt empty chair, and theydid it beautifully.
Wow, and even that couplerecently we had a meeting and
they were like, yeah, we hadthis fight, but we used the
(32:48):
skills and we handled it well.
We don't feel the need to talkabout it.
Holla, I know, like that islike the epitome of progress.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Oh my gosh, it really is.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
You acknowledge like, hey, this happened and we
handled it.
If this were to happen sixmonths ago it would not have had
the same outcome.
Nope, that's wow.
You're a badass couples healer,that's what you are.
They did great.
And you know, it's not all onthe therapist Like I'm there to
teach them these skills.
But I tell my couples like ifyou're not actively or
(33:21):
intentionally using these skillsoutside of session, then there
is not going to be progress.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Oh my gosh, I think that's so important that you
just said that it really is.
And even with individualcounseling as well, whether
you're going to couples therapyor individual therapy, it's you
that's got to do the work.
Boo, it's not the therapistliving with you.
It's you living with you, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Or like our therapy sessions, are, you know, an hour
once a week, maybe every otherweek?
Like that is such a minutetimeframe in the bigger scheme
of things, like you're not goingto be able to make significant
progress in that short amount oftime, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
When clients are looking at the therapist trying
to like explain themselves andget validation and I would like
look at them and be like I'm notsleeping next to you at night
you need to tell that to thatperson right there.
That's the person that you know.
It's funny because it's easy toget caught up in fighting and
arguing and being upset orgrowing distant or whatever with
(34:24):
your partner, especiallylong-term partnerships.
However, there is a humongousgift having someone say to you
your ins, your outs, your ugly,your pretty, all of this, I want
to do it with you.
Your ins, your outs, your ugly,your pretty, all of this I want
to do it with you.
I think people like lose sightof that, that long-term
(34:46):
relationships.
There's a lot of benefit inthem and it's worth fighting for
and they're never easy.
If they're easy, then y'all gotsome stuff you got to work out,
because you're probably justignoring it, yep, sweeping it
under the the rug, looking theother way no, we don't have
(35:07):
problems, we're fine, we're fine.
And you know what fine standsfor?
Oh, what does it stand for?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
fucked up, insecure, neurotic and emotional oh my
gosh, I love it you love that, Ilove, I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
When someone tells me they're fine, I'm like, yeah,
you are, yeah, yeah, you are.
Oh, this has been so much fun.
All right, amy, if you weregoing to let me reframe that.
Amy, if you want people to takeone takeaway, one golden nugget
, one gem from this episode,what is?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
it golden nugget, one gem from this episode what is
it Be intentional aboutaccepting bids from your partner
and giving those bids in return?
So again, those bids are thosesimple ways that we reach out to
connect with our partner and,according to the Gottman
research, they found that thosehappy, fulfilled couples
(35:59):
responded to an average of 87%of each other's bids.
Wow, do you want to know thepercentage for the couples that
did not continue therelationship?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Oh, my God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
They only responded to an average of 33% of those
bids.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
What, okay?
So what you're saying is likewhen my husband mentioned
something, or shows me a reel onhis phone or asks if I want to
get his mom to babysit so thatwe can go out.
If I'm saying yes, that's meaccepting the bid.
Right, okay, and so wait 30what percent.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Only 33% of bids were responded to, or successful.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
So when you're turning your partner down for
sex, when you're not holdingtheir hand and you're like, oh,
you're sweaty, like those arerejecting bids, right yeah, so
those?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
are those unsuccessful bids.
And so I explain to my coupleslike imagine, every relationship
has an emotional bank accountand whenever there's one of
those successful bids, a coin isdropped into that bank account.
Whenever there's a successfulbid a coin is taken out
(37:43):
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
And then two the other thing that's popping up
for me is do I even make bidsfor connection anymore?
Yeah, which can be a problemTwo youngins and a business and
clients and everything else.
I don't know if I'm even makingthese bids anymore, girl.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah Time.
Or if we make those bids butthey're not being responded to
by a partner, that can also leadpeople to no longer put forth
those bids anymore.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Was that a good one or what?
Amy and I covered so muchground today, from how important
it is to have a healthy mix ofquality time with your partner
and time to yourself, to howarguments are often about way
more than just who's taking thetrash out.
We talked about how a lack ofconnection can turn little
things into big blowout fights,and how making and responding to
(38:41):
bids for connection is one ofthe simplest yet most powerful
ways to strengthen yourrelationship.
And remember that you don'thave to overhaul everything
overnight.
Start small the room wasn'tbuilt in a day, and neither is
emotional intimacy.
If you loved Amy's vibe andyou're a North Carolina resident
, you can work with her inperson or via telehealth through
(39:03):
our practice, evolutionwellness.
Just head over toevolutionwellnessnccom to get
started.
And if you're ready to do somedeeper work with yours truly, I
take a limited number ofone-on-one clients.
You can learn more about thatat kaylarileycom.
Forward slash work with me.
I'll leave you with thisempowering quote Connection
(39:24):
doesn't happen when it'sconvenient.
It happens when we make it apriority.
And hey, if this episode hithome, binge a few more.
Not your therapist is packedwith mental health truth bombs,
and it's a solid way to level upyour car rides or laundry
folding sessions.
Thanks for being here and I'llcatch you on the next one.
Welcome back to Not your Therapist the podcast where
we're getting real aboutrelationships, mental health,
parenting and everything inbetween.
I'm your host, kayla Riley.
I'm a licensed therapist, agroup practice founder and your
go-to for a little science.
A bunch of stories from my timeas a therapist, a client and a
(00:24):
leader in the mental healthspace, and I'm going to serve it
all up with a big old dash ofsass.
Today's episode was such a funone to record.
I'm sitting down with my friendand colleague, Amy Phillips, a
couples and individual therapistat Evolution Wellness, the
group practice I founded righthere in Wilmington, north
Carolina.
Amy and I have been workingtogether for years and you'll
(00:47):
totally hear that in ourconversation.
We're laughing, we're cuttingup, but we're also deep diving
into what makes relationshipsactually work.
We're talking about what drivesemotional connection, why you
and your partner might befighting on repeat and what the
heck a bid for connection is.
Hint, it's very important ifyou don't want to get a divorce.
(01:09):
So this one's got humor, it'sgot heart and some seriously
helpful takeaways for anyonewanting to build a stronger
relationship.
I loved recording it and Ithink you're going to love
listening.
Let's dive in.
Love listening, let's dive in.
Have you ever seen a couplefight at like a restaurant?
(01:30):
Yes, I have, and oh my God, Ilove it.
One because I love angrycouples, it's like a thing.
But I love it because me and myhusband will be out on a date
(01:50):
and we'll be like they'refighting.
They're totally fighting.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You know, you can like feel it from across the
room.
I'm sure that's true for whenyou're a couples therapist too.
Oh yeah, like certain couplescome in and I'm like, oh hey
guys, how's it going?
And they're like giving me oneword answers and there's just
this like tension and I'm likewaiting for someone to say
something and it's like okay,what has happened between now?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
and our last.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Oh yeah, You're fighting.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I like to be like oh, you're fighting, Okay yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
They walk in the room with just this heaviness and
they're just very like rigidbody language.
They're sitting on oppositeends of the couch not looking at
each other.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Does that pay off, though, and like you're able to
actually work through maybe notthrough the argument, but you're
actually able to end thesession in a better place and
they come in like pissed off andone word answers, and then
they're leaving and it's like,okay, they're going to be all
right.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, absolutely Like being able to deescalate, being
able to talk about, you know,the conflict or issue that
happened, being able to processthat incident and making sure
each person is able to be heardand understood and validated.
That tension, just like lifts.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So what do you think it looks like for a couple?
If I asked you like hey, whatdoes an emotionally connected,
healthy couple look like?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
They are able to spend time together, quality
time together, but also have abalance of individual time
together, and that be okay.
They're able to listen andvalidate and they care and value
the other person's perspective,and that is when I work with
couples.
(03:29):
That oftentimes is.
The biggest issue incommunication is that we tend to
be speakers because we all wantto be heard and have our point
of view understood, but we arenot great on that listening part
.
So I give all of my coupleswarnings of like hey, being the
listener is way, way harder thanbeing the speaker.
(03:49):
Just.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
FYI, I so agree with that.
I love that metaphor of like.
It's like two people trying toplay football and they're both
throwing the football at thesame time and nobody's catching
it.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, that's a great analogy and nobody's catching it
.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, that's a great analogy.
Yeah, because that's reallywhat it looks like when couples
are not communicating very well.
Can you share an example nonames, obviously, but can you
share an example of a situationwhere a couple came in and they
weren't vibing, they weren'tcommunicating very well and they
weren't like vibing, theyweren't communicating very well.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think most of my couples likeit's so funny, because the
majority of the time whencouples come in, like probably
90% of couples are like oh, Iwant to improve communication
and conflict management.
Yeah, and like what they reallyneed to in order to get there
is that connection too.
Oh, wow, that's important.
Tell me more about that.
Yeah, and like what they reallyneed to in order to get there
is that connection too.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Oh, wow, that's important.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Tell me more about that.
Yeah, so when I have an intakewith a couple, you know I'm
asking a lot of questions, kindof getting history,
understanding why they're there,and like I always ask these two
questions how do you twoconnect and spend time together
and what do you?
What are your individualhobbies?
Those are the hardest questionsI ask couples, cause when I ask
(05:12):
those they just kind of havethis blank look on their face.
Or they look at me like I'vejust grown a second head and
they're like what do you mean wespend time together?
Or they just look at each otherand shrug their shoulders and
then they're like we don't.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I'm just sitting here thinking like I guess it's kind
of obvious If they're notspending time together, then
they're not going to have thatconnection.
But can you talk to me aboutthe other part?
That was really interesting,what you said Like how do you
spend time independently, likeby yourself?
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
That's so powerful?
Because I think a lot of peopledon't see that as an element of
relationship health.
But it is, yeah, because it'sall about having balance right.
Even though we are in thisrelationship, in this couplehood
, a lot of people viewthemselves as a unit, which they
definitely are but then when wemake that relationship kind of
our whole identity, then westart to lose our individual
(06:13):
self-identity, which is nothealthy.
We want there to be balance, sowe don't want to be like so
enmeshed, like the only thing wehave is our partner, but we
also don't want to be so distantfrom our partner that we're not
taking the time to spendtogether and connect.
So there's that healthy balanceof creating space in all of
(06:34):
these different areas and facetsof our life.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Okay, that's cool, okay, so you start with those
questions and that alreadystumps people.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, you would be surprised.
It's like it's notcommunication.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You need it's connection Because also when
we're not feeling connected withour partner and we're not
feeling emotionally safe and theability to be vulnerable, then
that's going to impact how we'reable to communicate with our
partner as well.
So it's like the foundations,like hey, you need this before
we start talking about having aconversation about your
(07:08):
mother-in-law who is a jerk orwhatever the conflict might be.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, yeah, because there's going to be those tough
conversations, we're going tohave emotional reactions and
that's totally normal.
I think a lot of peoplemisunderstand conflict and
communications and how that canbe a very normal and healthy
part of a relationship and thatit's how we manage that that
(07:33):
makes a difference and mostimpacts the relationship, and so
when we aren't connected withour partner, we are much more
likely and more easily going tobecome dysregulated.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Oh, that's helpful to hear that, I think.
So.
Let's say there are twopartners and they're super,
super distant and estranged.
It feels like a lot to cometogether when you start working
with.
Is it what, if they both work,they have kids, and they tell
(08:07):
you, like I don't, we don't havetime for that, like, are there
smaller ways to connect?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Like connection, or rituals ofconnection, as the Gottmans put
it.
So the Gottman method is whatI'm trained in.
It's an evidence-based couplestherapy model.
Gottmans are two psychologistswho spent their life researching
couples and what leads couplesto stay together versus break
(08:32):
apart, and so those rituals ofconnections, or bids as the
Gottmans call it, can besomething really, really simple.
It doesn't have to look likethose planned and organized
going out for a couple hour datenights like every week or every
other week.
It can look like how a couplesays goodbye to each other in
(08:54):
the morning when one is leavingfor work.
How do they greet each otherwhen they come home for work.
What do their rituals aroundmeals look like?
Like we all have to eat, sositting down and having a meal
together is a very easy way toconversate and connect with our
partner, sending each otherlittle fun like texts during the
(09:17):
day.
You know people, spicy texts,yeah, or not spicy, but yeah,
that definitely helps couplesfeel close and connected.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But even like, hey, look at this funny meme, like I
thought of you, that's better.
My head went immediately todirty nasty, sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Which is okay.
But yeah, even a lot of couplesfeel so distant that that feels
very weird to them.
And even when you first startworking with couples on
connection.
They can really struggle withfalling through on those things
that we talk about in sessionoutside of session.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
That makes a lot of sense.
That makes because it's almostlike a hurdle, like especially
if, yeah, I guess, if you'rehaving like some serious
disagreements like that, involveyour values, like, hey, I guess
, if you're having like someserious disagreements like that,
involve your values, like, hey,I don't want to spend every
Christmas with your parents, Iwant to create our own rituals
and our own, you know, and maybethe other partner really wants
(10:18):
to spend every holiday with thein-laws and if that's like a
gridlocked conflict, it's goingto be really hard to think about
kissing my husband on his wayout to work every morning.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, or vice versa.
Like, if it's really tough fortwo partners to spend time
together in those simple andsmall ways, then what's going to
make you want to listen andunderstand or communicate
respectfully with this person?
Yeah, because you're not.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It's like a machine.
It all kind of impacts eachother.
Mm-hmm.
Do you always start with thelike connection stuff first, or
do you start with the conflictstuff?
Like where do you go as acouples therapist?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Typically the connection stuff first.
So after the assessment portionwith couples I go over with
them the sound relationshiphouse model which is kind of
like the foundation of theGottman method, and I explain
each of those levels which thefirst three levels of this house
is all about connection andfriendship foundation in the
(11:21):
relationship and thatcommunication and conflict
management is like level numberfive.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So we have a conversation.
I mean it makes sense, right,Like when you got together you
didn't start talking about bigissues in the first place.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We have that conversation oflike why connection is so
important and how this helps usbe able to communicate with one
another better.
And then I ask for feedbackfrom couples.
It's like, okay, what do youthink you know you're doing well
on with these levels and wheredo you think you want to focus
on and improve?
And, Kayla, I've literally hadcouples be like we need to start
(11:56):
from square one, or we're inthe basement, Amy, we're in the
fucking sub-basement, amy, we'renot even out.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
We're in the fucking sub-basement.
If we were in the CIA, amy,we'd be in level negative
sub-zero 20.
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, you know, you have to say for those couples,
at least they have goodawareness, yeah, yeah and
explaining it to them in thatway, I think, helps them
understand and helps get them tobecome more invested in
prioritizing that connectionwith their partner.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
When my husband and I have gone to couples therapy, I
think something that has keptus before from going or from
wanting to go and you have thislike resistance, you feel is
that it feels so big.
It feels so big sometimes Likewe had at one point earlier in
our marriage.
We had so much we disagreed onand we had such a hard time like
(12:51):
finding compromise on a lot ofour different values.
Like we're night and day whenit comes to certain topics
politics, religion, family likewe are just totally on the
opposite end of the spectrum.
But I love that what you'resaying is a couple's therapist
if they're a good one, will kindof walk you through that like
(13:14):
hey, this is how relationshipsare built, this is how we heal
relationships.
Let's start here.
So it's like not up to thecouple, it's up to the therapist
to say like we don't have totackle all this.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, Because if we try to jump straight into that
communication and conflictmanagement, especially when
there are those like big issuetopics that the couple is
struggling with, if they don'thave that connection and that
friendship foundation couple isstruggling with, if they don't
have that connection and thatfriendship foundation?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
like sometimes that can do more harm than good.
That makes a lot of sense, well, and I think too it's funny
because I can see bothdirections leading to more of
like a friendship or aroommate's kind of vibe.
Like either, if we're too closeand the mystery's gone and the
desire's gone and I knoweverything about you and I'm
with you all the freaking time,that's going to feel like a best
friend, not a lover, and thenthe opposite.
(14:15):
That's kind of like obvious,right, if you and I are leading
totally separate lives and we'renever connecting, that can
totally contribute to a roommatevibe.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and some I see couples where that,
like being two together, is anissue.
I see that in a lot withcouples who work both work from
home, because if they both workfrom home they're always in the
home together.
I feel attacked, amy.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
You do what I feel attacked.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh I'm sorry, am I telling you out, kayla, I'm just
messing, I mean that's us, butgo ahead.
Go ahead.
Yeah, but, yeah so.
But sometimes couples can feellike, because they are around
each other all the time and theyhave that close proximity to
each other, that, oh, I spendall day with this person.
But just because you have thatproximity doesn't necessarily
mean you're connecting with thatperson either.
(15:08):
Ooh, good point.
And so I think couples can fallinto that pitfall when they do
have a schedule like that.
But you know, if you're notconversating, you're not
spending quality time together,then there isn't that connection
there, even if you are at thehouse all day.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Don't you think that's true?
For, like the TV trap?
Because like I remember seeinga lot of couples and it was like
, yeah, sure, we hang out atnight Like right, like we get
off work, we eat dinner and thenwe watch our favorite series,
and it's like I mean that has atime and a place, but if that's
the majority of how you spendtime with your partner, then
(15:46):
that's not great, because you'regoing into that autopilot.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You're like half watching this TV, half in your
phone and again just not reallyconnecting on a deeper level
with your partner by doing thatMm-hmm.
One thing that I like torecommend to all of my couples,
especially when we first startoff and couples are on board of
like, yeah, we need to work onconnection.
(16:10):
There's so many resources outthere that help couples with
connection, whether it's decksof cards with certain like
icebreaker questions, or I havea whole list of different apps
that couples can download ontheir phone and connect through
the app and with like the basefree version of this app, they
get like one question a day thatthey can both answer.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Oh, that's rad I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, it's super, super fun, like cause we stop
asking our partner those typesof fun questions, like when we
are communicating, we're talkingabout the stressors, we're
talking about the schedules,we're talking about household
chores, and so that doesn'tleave a whole lot of room for
just those fun, lightheartedconversations.
And so I love icebreakerquestions.
(16:56):
It's like do I know what mypartner's biggest fashion faux
pas was when they were growingup?
No, do I want to know thatabout.
My partner's biggest fashionfaux pas was when they were
growing up.
Do I want to know that about mypartner?
Absolutely yeah.
And so there's just all sortsof fun apps.
I had a client I was tellingthem about this and they were
like oh yeah, like we've donesomething like this before.
(17:17):
And it was an app.
It's called Someone and it'skind of like a Tamagotchi or
like one of those Giga pets thatlike you take care of.
You have this like egg and asyou answer these questions, like
you're caring and nurturingthis egg and it hatches into
like this bird that you and yourpartner are taking care of.
Oh, my God, I love that.
(17:38):
It's adorable, it's such athrowback to the 90s.
And then it was so funny.
This client was telling meabout this app and suddenly her
eyes got really big and wide andshe looks at her partner and
she goes our bird is probablydead.
(18:01):
Like yeah, because they hadneglected that bird and it was a
very funny moment, we had agood laugh.
But also like, how symbolic isthat?
Because, like, that bird isyour relationship and if you're
not taking time to nurture yourrelationship or to care for your
relationship, to connect inyour relationship, then odds are
(18:22):
your relationship is not goingto survive.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Oh, my gosh, yes, and I love that metaphor Gosh,
that's good.
What about the people who say Ifeel like one of the most
common things I have heard fromcouples and couples therapy is
shouldn't it be easy?
This sounds like a lot of workIf we were meant to be together,
shouldn't it feel easy?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, I get that too.
Or like I've had couples asklike is it normal for couples to
fight this much?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And it's like yes 100% and I think we put a lot of
pressure on our relationshipsnow than we ever did in the past
.
In the past there weren't cellphones and emails and working
from home, and I don't know.
It just feels like we expectour partners to be our best
(19:20):
friends, our co-parent, A lot oftimes our co-worker, if we're
working in the same space or inthe same, you know, job or
whatever co-house manager,bestie and lover all in one, and
it's like that's a lot ofpressure to put on one human
being.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, and I think a lot of couples can struggle with
like accepting the fact thatour partner is not going to be
able to meet all of our wantsand needs.
Nor should they have to yeahand just like we're not going to
be able to meet all of ourpartner's wants and needs, and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I think that's a big relief.
I think some people could feelthreatened by that, but I think
a better way to reframe it iswhat a relief Like.
You're your own person, getyour own hobbies, get your own
buds, get your own friends yeah,and that's going to make you
feel more fulfilled in your life, which is going to make me
(20:16):
desire you more and be moreattracted to you.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, absolutely to you, yeah, absolutely.
What about small grudges thatturn into like big, huge iron
walls With couples that I seethey're either one of which way.
They're either that couple whofights and have really escalated
(20:41):
fights, or they are that couplethat don't fight and tend to be
very conflict avoidant, and Ithink that is the more dangerous
couple, because at least thecouple that's fighting, at least
they're communicating in someway, shape or form.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
The passion's there, it's just in the wrong yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, wrong, yeah yeah.
And so, like that couple who'savoidant of that conflict, they
don't know how to be able toaddress things with their
partner.
And when we aren't able toaddress those things, those
things don't just magically goaway like they keep on happening
.
And so those behaviors that arebothering us are just going to
continue, and we are going tocontinue to try to ignore them
(21:25):
or shove them down.
And when that happens, that'swhen it festers and it builds up
resentment and eventually it'sgoing to explode.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, well, and I think what people don't realize.
Well, I mean, you can on anintelligent level, like
intellectually, you canunderstand this, but in an
emotional level it really doesfester, like if you hold
contempt for your partner or aresentment, it can start to
color everything your partnerdoes.
(21:56):
When I'm mad at my husband, Ican't even stand the way he
breathes, the way he walks intoa room, and I love this man,
I've known this man for a decade, but it colors everything when
I'm angry, and I think that'strue for these.
You know emotional wounds too,don't you think?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Absolutely yeah.
If we're not able to processthose wounds or those grudges,
then it's going to put thatwedge in the relationship and
create that distance anddisconnect.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Like rose colored glasses, except not rose, except
they're like black coloredglasses, doo-doo, brown colored
glasses.
In marriage, I think this ispretty common, right.
Like one or the other partnerjust doesn't feel comfortable
with opening up, or even likemaybe it's something one partner
(22:50):
did, or maybe it's fromchildhood where they're just not
an emotional talker.
I see this a lot in men, right,like I'm not just going to open
up and talk to you about myfeelings.
That's weird.
I'm not just going to open upand talk to you about my
feelings.
That's weird, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, and oftentimes they're either with another
avoidant conflict person soagain they're not talking, or
that avoidant conflict personwith someone who loves to talk
everything to death, or they canget very like, passionate and
escalated, and then they justkind of bulldoze their partner
100% the pursuer distancer LikeI need to take a break.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
No, we need to talk about this now.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Mm, hmm, yeah, and so talking with couples about the
calm down plan, which is acommunication intervention that
helps couples be able to takethat break when they're feeling
escalated or feeling shut down,is a really, really important
skill for everyone to have,because if one person becomes
(23:56):
dysregulated in a discussionwhich is normal, it's going to
happen, we have feelings.
That's okay, but if they don'tstop and take that break, then
they're going to get furtherescalated or further shut down,
and when one partner isdysregulated, it is much more
likely the other person is goingto get dysregulated.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
And then you're just in a hot, freaking mess.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, and then nothing is happening, nothing
good is happening, like that'swhen those four horsemen come up
.
So, like the Gottmans, identifythese like communication
blunders that we want to avoid.
So criticism, defensiveness,contempt and stonewalling, and
like, if any of those arepopping up in a discussion or
conversation, someone's eitheron their way to becoming
(24:45):
dysregulated or are alreadydysregulated.
And when we are dysregulated weare not in the headspace to be
able to listen and understandour partner or to be able to use
those skills that help partnerswith communication.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Right, yeah, like your brain isn't online anymore.
Maybe shut up and stop diggingyourself a hole.
I'm bad for that.
Like if I'm dysregulated, I'mgoing to say some hurtful shit
and then I'm going to feelguilty later and then the guilt
is going to.
You know what I mean.
Like it's like thisperpetuating cycle.
So the better thing is topreemptively have, like you said
(25:22):
, like this little calm downplan.
What have your calm down plans?
And, personal note what is yourcalm down?
What's your go-to calm downstrategy when someone pisses you
off, a partner or otherwise?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I'm going for a walk or some type of physical
exercise, like I've got to dosomething.
I have this excess energy in mybody, I'm very hyperactive and
fidgety and I need to like getit out.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Oh, my God, yes, well , and it removes you from the
situation.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, which can make some people feel very
uncomfortable.
So some people can get very-.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
That abandonment trigger.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
When there's that break or timeout called and
oftentimes I hear from clientsit's because they have that fear
that the conversation is notgoing to be brought back to or
to be continued and it's justgoing to get swept under the rug
.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So that's good point.
Good point, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, absolutely, because, like again those
avoidant conflict, people cansometimes intentionally or
unintentionally use that breakto like skedaddle from that
uncomfortable conversation Avoidavoid.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And then you bring it back up and they're like why do
you always have to bring up badstuff?
And you're like we have toresolve it.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, or else nothing is going to change.
And so one of the biggest, abig part of that calm down plan
is not only calling for thatbreak and doing something
intentional to be able toregulate and self-soothe.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
But then coming back to that conversation, I always
say that the rule is whoevercalls the time out has to
eventually not right then, buteventually give the other
partner a time when they'rewilling to talk about it.
Yeah, because my husband'sreally good at saying now's not
the time and nighttime's not thetime, and morning time's not
(27:23):
the time and the weekend's notthe time and it's not the time
and nighttime's not the time,and morning time's not the time
and the weekend's not the time,and vacation is not the time.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
And I'm like then when is the time and, I think,
accepting that there is nevergoing to be a perfect time.
But what is the best time to beable to talk about this?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
because it needs to be talked about yeah, fair, I
like that a lot and I think thatlike settles the like
abandonment trigger in the otherpartner, because you're like,
okay, this isn't being sweptunder the rug and ignored, we're
going to have a time to talkabout it, but it's going to be
in a time and place where it'sgood for both of us.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And I think that can be helpful just in general,
versus like springing a toughconversation on a partner and
they're like whoa, where is thiscoming from?
I always suggest to coupleslike hey, if you have something
you need to talk about with yourpartner, approach it.
Like hey, I would like to talkabout ABC.
When would be a good time foryou?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Oh, that sounds so mature and grown.
Yes, that's so mature and grown.
I like to wait until we'resettling down for bed and then
saying here's this emotionalproblem that's going to cause us
to both.
My husband laughs.
I used to do that, I'm a lotbetter now.
But my husband laughs becausewhen he lays down some nights
he's like are you going to bringup like a big emotional issue?
(28:41):
And I'm like, no, I don't dothat anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
She's like halfway ready for it.
Like what's this emotional bombthat she's going to drop on me
tonight?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Emotional bombs.
I love that.
Don't do that.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, no, but yeah.
But that helps, like the otherperson kind of be ready and
prepared.
They're expecting thisconversation.
By planning a specific time forit, both partners can be again
prepared and can kind of thinkof what they want to say and how
they want to say it regardingthat specific topic.
Or I'll have couples.
(29:20):
They're like Amy, we fight likeevery day and I'm like, well,
what are you fighting about?
They're like I don't evenremember what the fight was
about.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Various things how loud he crunches his chips and
why she doesn't put her coffeecup in the fricking dishwasher.
It's so funny because it's likethese are all the things you're
fighting about.
But what are you reallyfighting about?
Can you drop down into a spaceof like and I think that's the
work right, like dropping downand being like okay, I'm
(29:50):
fighting because I don't feelvalued or I feel criticized or
whatever it might be, but I feellike there's do you remember
what it was for that couple?
Like, what were they reallyfighting about?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
I think so with this couple.
The wife was one of thosepeople who would be described as
sensitive or emotional, so shehad very intense emotions, would
cry very easily, would cry veryeasily.
The husband, on the other hand,was a very like logical thinker
(30:26):
and really struggles withrelating or understanding her
emotions.
So that was their bigdisconnect.
Like if wife would come up witha problem, he would kind of
unintentionally invalidate ordismiss her emotions about this
problem.
So she was feeling unheard, hewould get really defensive and
things would just escalate.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Isn't it funny, too, how we always attract that
partner that's going to push onthe place where we are needing
to heal.
Always Like always.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, I call that concept.
I learned it from anotherpodcast I listened to and the
speaker called it like brokentoes how we all have broken toes
from events from our past thatwe carry with us these like
inner wounds, and our partner isinevitably going to step on
those broken toes.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I like Harville Hendricks.
He wrote Getting the Love youWant and he developed Imago
therapy, which I love.
His quote that stands out to meis intimacy is a trauma trigger
, and I think that's so profound.
Intimacy is a trauma triggerbecause the closer we get to
(31:41):
someone, the more we reveal allof ourselves.
And guess what we don't revealto most of the outside world?
Our crap.
Yeah, and we so lovingly savethat for the most important
person in our lives, the personwho is living life next to us,
like alongside us.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, absolutely, and funny, you mentioned Imago.
So I actually did theparent-child dialogue with this
couple and it's so beautiful tosee, like the way that they're
talking about it and thosemoments really make me proud of
my clients when they're able touse those skills, when they're
able to be vulnerable and,especially with an intervention
(32:25):
like that, how it's much moreabstract and some people can
really struggle withinterventions like that or like
gestalt empty chair, and theydid it beautifully.
Wow, and even that couplerecently we had a meeting and
they were like, yeah, we hadthis fight, but we used the
(32:48):
skills and we handled it well.
We don't feel the need to talkabout it.
Holla, I know, like that islike the epitome of progress.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Oh my gosh, it really is.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
You acknowledge like, hey, this happened and we
handled it.
If this were to happen sixmonths ago it would not have had
the same outcome.
Nope, that's wow.
You're a badass couples healer,that's what you are.
They did great.
And you know, it's not all onthe therapist Like I'm there to
teach them these skills.
But I tell my couples like ifyou're not actively or
(33:21):
intentionally using these skillsoutside of session, then there
is not going to be progress.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Oh my gosh, I think that's so important that you
just said that it really is.
And even with individualcounseling as well, whether
you're going to couples therapyor individual therapy, it's you
that's got to do the work.
Boo, it's not the therapistliving with you.
It's you living with you, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Or like our therapy sessions, are, you know, an hour
once a week, maybe every otherweek?
Like that is such a minutetimeframe in the bigger scheme
of things, like you're not goingto be able to make significant
progress in that short amount oftime, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
When clients are looking at the therapist trying
to like explain themselves andget validation and I would like
look at them and be like I'm notsleeping next to you at night
you need to tell that to thatperson right there.
That's the person that you know.
It's funny because it's easy toget caught up in fighting and
arguing and being upset orgrowing distant or whatever with
(34:24):
your partner, especiallylong-term partnerships.
However, there is a humongousgift having someone say to you
your ins, your outs, your ugly,your pretty, all of this, I want
to do it with you.
Your ins, your outs, your ugly,your pretty, all of this I want
to do it with you.
I think people like lose sightof that, that long-term
(34:46):
relationships.
There's a lot of benefit inthem and it's worth fighting for
and they're never easy.
If they're easy, then y'all gotsome stuff you got to work out,
because you're probably justignoring it, yep, sweeping it
under the the rug, looking theother way no, we don't have
(35:07):
problems, we're fine, we're fine.
And you know what fine standsfor?
Oh, what does it stand for?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
fucked up, insecure, neurotic and emotional oh my
gosh, I love it you love that, Ilove, I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
When someone tells me they're fine, I'm like, yeah,
you are, yeah, yeah, you are.
Oh, this has been so much fun.
All right, amy, if you weregoing to let me reframe that.
Amy, if you want people to takeone takeaway, one golden nugget
, one gem from this episode,what is?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
it golden nugget, one gem from this episode what is
it Be intentional aboutaccepting bids from your partner
and giving those bids in return?
So again, those bids are thosesimple ways that we reach out to
connect with our partner and,according to the Gottman
research, they found that thosehappy, fulfilled couples
(35:59):
responded to an average of 87%of each other's bids.
Wow, do you want to know thepercentage for the couples that
did not continue therelationship?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Oh, my God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
They only responded to an average of 33% of those
bids.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
What, okay?
So what you're saying is likewhen my husband mentioned
something, or shows me a reel onhis phone or asks if I want to
get his mom to babysit so thatwe can go out.
If I'm saying yes, that's meaccepting the bid.
Right, okay, and so wait 30what percent.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Only 33% of bids were responded to, or successful.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
So when you're turning your partner down for
sex, when you're not holdingtheir hand and you're like, oh,
you're sweaty, like those arerejecting bids, right yeah, so
those?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
are those unsuccessful bids.
And so I explain to my coupleslike imagine, every relationship
has an emotional bank accountand whenever there's one of
those successful bids, a coin isdropped into that bank account.
Whenever there's a successfulbid a coin is taken out
(37:43):
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
And then two the other thing that's popping up
for me is do I even make bidsfor connection anymore?
Yeah, which can be a problemTwo youngins and a business and
clients and everything else.
I don't know if I'm even makingthese bids anymore, girl.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah Time.
Or if we make those bids butthey're not being responded to
by a partner, that can also leadpeople to no longer put forth
those bids anymore.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Was that a good one or what?
Amy and I covered so muchground today, from how important
it is to have a healthy mix ofquality time with your partner
and time to yourself, to howarguments are often about way
more than just who's taking thetrash out.
We talked about how a lack ofconnection can turn little
things into big blowout fights,and how making and responding to
(38:41):
bids for connection is one ofthe simplest yet most powerful
ways to strengthen yourrelationship.
And remember that you don'thave to overhaul everything
overnight.
Start small the room wasn'tbuilt in a day, and neither is
emotional intimacy.
If you loved Amy's vibe andyou're a North Carolina resident
, you can work with her inperson or via telehealth through
(39:03):
our practice, evolutionwellness.
Just head over toevolutionwellnessnccom to get
started.
And if you're ready to do somedeeper work with yours truly, I
take a limited number ofone-on-one clients.
You can learn more about thatat kaylarileycom.
Forward slash work with me.
I'll leave you with thisempowering quote Connection
(39:24):
doesn't happen when it'sconvenient.
It happens when we make it apriority.
And hey, if this episode hithome, binge a few more.
Not your therapist is packedwith mental health truth bombs,
and it's a solid way to level upyour car rides or laundry
folding sessions.
Thanks for being here and I'llcatch you on the next one.
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