April 22, 2024 • 59 mins
Imagine leaving the predictable comforts of a dental office for the dizzying heights of high-rigging in the entertainment industry. That's the story of Renee Munholand, whose remarkable career leap has seen her ensure the safety and success of everything from colossal concerts to Super Bowl extravaganzas. In our conversation, Renee peels back the curtain to reveal the resilience and passion required to soar in this high-stakes profession. She recounts the personal growth and life lessons learned on the job, providing an inspiring look at what it takes to leave a grounded job for one that literally hangs in the balance.
Renee doesn't hold back on the realities of work-life equilibrium and the unique pressures of tour life, offering insights into how a positive mindset can transform a grueling schedule into a rewarding adventure. She walks us through the evolving landscape of rigging, where certification and safety dance hand-in-hand with the irreplaceable wisdom gained from hands-on experience. Renee's stories serve as a masterclass in navigating the rigging world where precision and neutrality are everything.
To round it all off, our audience gets a taste of how, sometimes, it's the small things—like mentoring the next generation of riggers or choosing between chocolate and caramel—that truly sweeten life's journey. Join us for this episode and strap in for a behind-the-scenes tour that ascends to new heights, offering heart-racing anecdotes and valuable lessons from one of the industry's most adept high-fliers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Renee (00:00):
This is Renee Munholand and you're listening to One Hour
Till Doors.
Jon (00:12):
This is One Hour Till Doors , a podcast about the business
and soul of the festivals andevents industry.
I am your host, Jon Stone.
Every episode of One Hour toDoors explores the people,
issues, insights and trendsimpacting the enterprise of
bringing people and communitiestogether in common cause.
Our guest today is ReneeMunholand, a certified
(00:37):
first-call high-rigger basedhere in Seattle.
Her highly specialized worktakes her from the stage roof at
the Gorge Amphitheater to thearches above Lumen Field in
Seattle and from touring withthe Weeknd to the Super Bowl.
Welcome to the show, Renee,thank you.
So, Renee, you and I haveworked on I don't know how many
(00:58):
gigs together over the years,but I was thinking about this
this morning.
But I was thinking about thisthis morning.
We've never really sat down andhad long conversation because
at the gigs, either I'mpreoccupied with something or
you're at least 60 or 80 feetover my head, yeah, so it's
great to have an opportunity tojust sit here at ground level
(01:19):
together.
Renee (01:20):
Yes.
Jon (01:21):
It's taken many years to get to this point.
Yeah, how do you describe yourjob to the layperson?
Renee (01:29):
Well, I will just start off by saying that I build
concerts and I'll just add in,maybe, that I also do
conventions.
You know, I work at height, orI will guide the crews that are
working at height, and I'll belike you see everything up in
(01:52):
the air.
Jon (01:52):
I put it there.
Yeah, that's the way I describethe trade to others.
You are the people who areresponsible for everything
that's hanging over your head.
Renee (02:00):
Yeah.
Jon (02:01):
What's your origin?
Renee (02:01):
story Where'd you grow up ?
Yeah, what's your origin story?
Where'd you grow up?
So I was born in Renton,actually, and my father, he, was
employed at Boeing.
Oh, what did he do at Boeing?
He was an electrical engineerand I guess, from what I
understand, he would fly withthe planes in different
(02:22):
conditions and check the gaugesand whatnot.
Jon (02:25):
Okay, yeah, so test flight.
Renee (02:27):
Yeah, and then we moved to the Tri-City area.
My brother was born there.
I have a little brother and myparents divorced when I was like
five and then my dad gainedcustody of my brother and I and
moved us to the Portland area.
(02:47):
So I lived in Tualatin andHillsborough, Oregon, and then
after that we lived there untilI was about 14.
And it wasn't like the best ofsituations.
I love my dad but we kind ofneeded mom.
So I kind of had to go to courtagainst him to live with my
(03:10):
mother and I haven't seen himsince.
But then my mom did gaincustody of us and we moved back
to the Tri-City area.
After high school I've lived inStanfield, Oregon, Hermiston,
Oregon and Umatilla, Oregon, andthen I married and had my
(03:34):
daughter and we moved up toYakima and then his job took us
to Ellensburg, Washington, andthen, when we decided that we
wanted to go our separate ways,I moved up here, back up here to
Seattle.
So you've been all over theNorthwest.
Yeah, I'm totally a Northwestgirl.
Jon (03:54):
At what point did you decide to get into the
entertainment industry?
Renee (03:59):
That's so funny.
In like 2008, when the economycrashed, we had moved to
Ellensburg and I got a job witha dentist.
I had gone to college shortlyafter my daughter was born and I
got certified in dentistry.
I was working in Yakima anddriving back and forth from
(04:19):
Ellensburg to Yakima every dayuntil I'd gotten a job in
Ellensburg, and usually in adental office, the staff like
their doctor, you know, theystay with them for a long time
and there was only like a coupleof dentists in the Ellensburg
area.
There were some changes in theoffice I was in and I ended up
(04:41):
getting laid off and you know, Ithink there was like three
dentist's office there and allof the staff were from
Ellensburg and like stayed there.
So there's no openings.
So I needed a job.
I had a family and a stagehandjob came across my job searching
and I went for it and it was sofunny.
(05:03):
I didn't know, you know at allanything about the industry, so
I was really worried.
I wanted the job very badly.
I always joked around to peoplethat I probably have paid
enough money in concerts to havelike put myself through like a
four year college degree,four-year college degree.
But I found this job and I waslike, oh my gosh, I don't have
(05:25):
experience.
Oh, are they going to hire me?
Oh my gosh, what's going tohappen?
Oh my gosh, I just hope I getthis job.
And not knowing anything aboutit, I think I like they had a
question for me, the employer,they asked me something and I
was like telling them my anxietyand stuff, like, oh my gosh,
(05:46):
and they're like, don't worryabout it.
And they looked at my email andthey were like, you're going to
get along just fine with us.
I have a silly email that islike the world's oldest email,
but it has some numbers in itthat make it funny, and so they
(06:06):
thought I would, you know, fitright in.
And so at the same time when Istarted there, I also had to
transition to a different careerin ophthalmology, and so I went
from dentistry to ophthalmology, which is working for an eye
doctor, and then I didstagehanding on the side.
(06:27):
So that's kind of how I got in.
So how'd you go from stagehandto rigging, in particular, Well,
I'll never forget, like rightaway when I started as a
stagehand, I worked mostly outat the gorge because I was only
about a half an hour 45 minutedrive from there and the riggers
that were there they had, youknow immediately said, like
(06:51):
maybe I should try rigging and Iwas very cautious about it.
I'm like I don't know if Iwould enjoy heights.
I don't know, you know, if thisis really for me.
Like I just kind of was new inthe industry and to me it wasn't
about money at all.
Like, really to this day, myjob really isn't about money.
(07:13):
I just enjoy it and I want tolove it and I love seeing, no
matter what kind of job I do, itbeing an ice capades to like
some convention or anything.
I really take a lot of pride inseeing the people enjoying it.
Right, that they really areenjoying it.
(07:35):
I kind of just brush that asideand just focused on being a
stagehand and being happy andalso working.
And then my daughter she wasyoung and my husband.
So I was really overwhelmed,like I would started working to
the point where I didn't everget a day off and I was just
(07:58):
working every day.
But then when I wanted to rig.
I felt like I wanted growth andI was like I'm ready to try
that now.
And when I said I was ready, ittook me a while.
It was like after a couple ofyears in the industry I was like
(08:19):
ready to go and I had to fighttooth and nail just to get in.
It was hard.
Jon (08:28):
Say more about that.
Renee (08:29):
You know, to get a class so that I could have the
training for fall protection.
I would never know when theywere, they would never invite me
to them, you know.
So I'm talking to the rigger,the rigging manager, constantly.
I'm like, hey, I want to dothis, tell me when there's a
class.
I was told that, and here inWashington State, especially
(08:53):
like here in Seattle, there isan exceptional amount of female
riggers comparatively to therest of the country.
Right, it's not very commonthat you see female riggers.
Jon (09:05):
I was going to ask about that.
Renee (09:06):
Yeah, but we had a lot.
I mean, there was probably agood handful of them that I
could name that were working asriggers at the time, and so I
had confronted my riggingmanager and I'm like, hey, I
want to take the class.
And I swear this guy.
He's like I don't know what itis about some of the men
(09:30):
sometimes in riggingspecifically, but they're just
awkward.
I think they just really don'tknow what to say and like, maybe
they don't have.
They didn't have, like thisparticular person didn't have
the capacity for trying to getme in.
I mean, I had a full-time job,right, I didn't live here in
(09:51):
Seattle, so like how is thatgoing to benefit them on a large
scale when they really justneed people, when they need them
, right, and to put that effortin and I gonna make it right?
Like am I gonna stand the testof time?
Because that is a huge thingfor new riggers.
We can hire and train and get alarge quantity of people who
(10:16):
think they want to do it, butthen when they really see the
job and they really understandit, they're like, oh, I don't
want to do this.
Jon (10:23):
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
I mean, I'm projecting here,but rigging is one.
It's intensely physical, moreso than just about any other gig
.
There's a lot of training, moreso than most any other gig, and
that training is crucial.
So that's a big investment inwhoever's doing the training and
(10:43):
then just the raw trust thathas to happen.
You're holding people's livesand livelihoods in your hand
every minute of every day.
I get that there's a filtrationprocess of sort, yeah, yeah.
Renee (10:55):
You know, and I mean even just in the industry overall,
even if you just start off as astagehand, you know it's funny,
so I went through 2008.
Just start off as a stagehand,you know it's funny, so I went
through 2008.
And the funny part aboutgetting hired into the industry
during that time is that youknow the economy crashed.
So are people spending money onentertainment?
No, they're not, right, theycan't even afford their mortgage
(11:17):
, right, everybody's losingtheir houses, they're losing
their jobs.
And it was really kind of funnythat I got hired during that
time period, because then itramps up and then, when it ramps
up, all of a sudden we needpeople, right, we need people
and so we get people.
But like it's really tough tonavigate, just in the industry
(11:38):
overall, how to make this asuccessful career, how you can
survive off of it, because it'snot a Monday through Friday,
nine to five job.
That's guaranteed work.
You have to hustle, you have toget your name out there, get
the seniority, you have to getall the other jobs and you have
(11:59):
to make sure you know you'remaking the right choices and
picking the right jobs, and likemaking the money right in order
to get money coming in on aregular basis.
That's one thing about rigging,but I'd say it's a little more
on an upper scale thanstagehanding.
Because, yes, there is anelement at some point not always
(12:22):
not when you start, but at somepoint there is a level of skill
and knowledge that you canbring to the table which makes
you very valuable and hireable.
Like they need you.
We need someone who can thinkrather than just be a monkey and
pull a rope, you know.
(12:42):
And so this particular gentlemanthat I'm inquiring about
getting in.
First of all, my personality isover the top bubbly, right.
I'm always happy I'm showing upto work.
I love everyone hugging,everyone saying hi, I know
everybody's names.
I'm like, you know, I'mstepping out of this career of
like ophthalmology, where youknow I'm checking, and out of
(13:06):
this career of likeophthalmology where you know,
I'm checking people's eyepressure and their eyeglasses,
prescription and their healthand all of this stuff.
And then I'm going and this ismy fun time, right?
So my impression on the peoplethat I'm working with they're
like, oh, she doesn't like takethis seriously, right?
Like she's not, and no one'sever really told me that.
But I can kind of step backfrom myself and think that about
(13:27):
myself, you know, at the time.
So.
So the answer that I get fromthis this rigging manager is he
said you know, like girls can'treally do this job.
Oh, job and you know, reallyit's like you know, I don't you
(13:49):
know, he, yeah, he saidsomething about how I'm a girl
and I probably can't do it, orsomething like that, and I just
like.
Jon (13:59):
And this was in our lifetime that you're hearing
this.
Renee (14:01):
Yes, and like I said again, like we had over like a
handful of female riggers at thetime right.
Jon (14:09):
Yeah.
Renee (14:11):
And I was like what the hell?
And I went through this throughmy mind, rigging manager and I
like it's very rare that I'veever turned someone in for like
inappropriateness right.
But but also, you know, I'mlike, I called up the, the HR,
(14:36):
and I, and I'm like you know,this guy told me that I can't do
it because I'm a girl.
Jon (14:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and.
Renee (14:43):
I just said.
You know I'm not like you know,a lawsuit person or anything,
but you know he probablyshouldn't be saying that
response.
He can think it, but heshouldn't be saying something
like that.
He was like the most sociallyawkward.
Like it just accidentally comesout right and if that's really
(15:06):
what he thought or not, I don'tknow, I'm not in control of that
, but I have to say I thinkmaybe calling the HR kind of
they're like we better give hera shot right Might have bumped
them into the 21st century right, might have bumped them into
(15:28):
the 21st century.
Yeah, no, I still know them.
Jon (15:30):
We're friends.
I don't know.
I mean, look everybody in ourline of biz, we've all got
really thick skin.
Renee (15:36):
Yeah.
Jon (15:37):
And we all love to talk, smack, yeah A lot.
That's just kind of part of thetrade, I suppose.
But what you're describing isjust over the top.
Renee (15:48):
I just I couldn't believe it.
But I think what it is is justthat lack of sociability to like
to maybe just say no, like notreally know how, to how to get
that out verbally to somebodywith it just came out that way,
like it just came outinappropriate.
Now I'm not like giving him apass, but it's like already in
(16:14):
the past right and so I'vealready, like I decided I wasn't
going to let that stop me.
I'm driven right and that's notgoing to stop me.
I just kept moving forward andI kind of laughed at it.
It was funny, it was reallypretty funny.
Jon (16:35):
So, since you've opened up this whole can of worms here and
everything I'm about to say,I'm saying at least partly
tongue in cheek.
I know many of your colleaguesand there's a I'll just call it
a stereotype, but in my, from myperspective, riggers on average
tend to be one of the grumpiertype crews.
Maybe they're not grumpyamongst yourselves, but they're
(16:56):
grumpy with everybody else.
But you've always beendifferent.
Like I've never seen you grumpy.
Every time I'm looking, youseem to be having a good time
enjoying your work.
Renee (17:06):
Oh yeah.
Jon (17:07):
Even towards the end of the 18-hour day you always appear
to be happy as if it were onlythe first couple hours of the
call, whereas on average mosteverybody else in the trade.
As the day goes on, kind ofthat attitude starts to sink
With, you know, just exhaustion.
Renee (17:23):
Yeah.
Jon (17:24):
Physical, emotional, but you seem to be immune to that
somewhat.
Renee (17:28):
Yeah, it's my preferred feeling Like.
I just prefer to be happy and Ilike to have a bright outlook
on things.
Oh, that's fantastic so youknow, I guess I'm like.
There's a lot of people theircups are half full and mine's
full.
You know, that's how I feel.
Jon (17:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it has an impact on the job site,
especially in the latter half ofthe day.
It just takes one or two peoplewho are openly displaying a
good, happy, positive mood Kindof lifts everybody up for that
final push.
Or, conversely, if you don'thave that, if everybody just
gets progressively grumpier,it's like this downward spiral.
(18:09):
Yeah, you know to where it getsreally hard to cross that
finish line.
Roll down the last door on thetruck or whatever.
Yeah, you know to where it getsreally hard to cross that
finish line.
Roll down the last door on thetruck or whatever.
Yes, do you work mostly locally?
I know you have done sometouring, but are you?
Renee (18:26):
mostly local.
Do you travel around?
I'm kind of mostly local.
I do enjoy traveling around.
Like when you mentioned, I doenjoy traveling around.
Like when you mentioned, likewhen I worked the Super Bowl
that was in Glendale Arizona, Iactually went there and stayed
with my brother and I worked forlike a month, I think I had two
days off.
That was fun, I loved it.
(18:47):
And I've gone down to San Diegoand I worked.
I had a friend working thisparticular gig and I wanted to
work it.
So I just got a hold of my bossand I said, hey, can I?
I'm going to be down there, CanI work?
And they were like, yeah, sure,and then I also have toured.
I mean, I have to say that thatis what I really want to do,
(19:12):
touring.
Yes, that is what I'm here for.
Why, like, I want a tour?
There's so many reasons for meand a lot of people, a lot of
people I'm surrounded by, theyhate it, they don't like it.
They're like you won't like it.
And, honestly, my first, theone tour that I've been on the
(19:34):
Weeknd, you know I enjoyed it, Ihad a great time and I was
probably spoiled.
Like in that particular tour, Iwas probably really spoiled
compared to like always touringlife, but I have nothing really
keeping me here.
I love to explore.
As far as like travel and allthat kind of stuff, I'm a
(19:55):
minimalist, so I don't have alot Like, I mean my.
When you walk into my apartmentright now, it is it's like a
hotel, like the bed's made, allthe dishes are clean, all the
four dishes that I own.
I just get to be in what I loveto do and I like it because I
(20:20):
work with different people allthe time.
I'm working with a whole newset of faces.
I love meeting people andgetting to know them and I learn
from other people too, and Ilearn from other people too, and
it's always a learningexperience.
Like just the new, like venueor any of that.
I like fresh and new and keepgoing and and and like the focus
(20:45):
on work.
I don't have to worry about howam I going to get to work, right
, I'm there, I wake up,somebody's like there's
breakfast over there.
I go, eat some breakfast, youknow, and then go straight to
work.
And then, you know, go rest orwhatever.
The more I work, juststationary here or whatever, I
(21:08):
love my people.
Don't get me wrong.
People Don't get me wrong, butthere is a level of politics
that I am just not built for.
You know, I'm not here to bepolitical, I just want to go to
work and I want to do my job andI want to enjoy it and, yes, I
(21:28):
want to be paid right.
But I end up getting in themiddle of some of these politics
and it's weird.
I think I've slipped throughcracks, because a lot of times I
don't have these complaintsthat other people have about
things.
Like I just like, oh, I don'tlike that.
Well then, I'm just going to goover here, you know, and maybe
(21:50):
that's not so good, I need tostand up for my coworkers or
whatever, and I try and I do thebest that I can.
But, like, honestly, I'm nothere to make those kind of
statements.
I want to get on the road, Iwant to enjoy my job, I want to
enjoy the people I'm workingwith and I'm seeing different
things.
Jon (22:11):
What's the ratio of the type of gigs you're working
these days?
I mean, you're doing concerts,you're talking about sports.
I imagine you're probably doingsome corporate stuff here and
there.
What's the mix like for you?
Renee (22:24):
Well, I have moved downtown Seattle so I live
downtown and I no longer have acar.
So that is actually been a verybeautiful thing for me.
It has kind of helped me withwork-life balance and I work
(22:44):
basically whatever's the closestand you know it also pays more.
Whatever's closest to meactually pays me more.
It's kind of a 50-50.
I work a lot of Climate Pledge,I work a lot of Convention
Center, and so those are aboutthe two things that I do.
Since the pandemic has kind oflifted and they've opened the
(23:08):
new side of the ConventionCenter, they've been pushing a
lot of gigs through thosebuildings.
Jon (23:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Renee (23:15):
They are, I think, one of the only places in the country
it may have changed a little bitbut that require this ETCP
certification that I do have.
That kind of gives you a higherpay.
Jon (23:32):
What's the ETCP certification?
Renee (23:35):
It's Entertainment Technician Arena Rigging.
That's horrible, I don'tremember.
Jon (23:45):
Oh sorry, I get the idea.
Renee (23:46):
Yeah, but it's.
Is it a national certificationor yes, it's specific to our
country?
Really, it's a test on, like,overall knowledge.
You have to memorize thingslike what hardware limitations
are, so like a certain shacklecan handle this much weight, and
what the breaking strength isof it.
(24:08):
The rigging industry inentertainment is probably the
safest, the most scrutinized inthe fact that we scrutinize
everything that we do, versuslike ironworking or even crane
lifting or even ship rigging,because we're hanging these
things over people's heads Right.
(24:30):
You memorize the differentpieces of hardware that you use,
what their capabilities are.
There's also a lot of math,because when you make a point I
don't want to get too deep intoit, but sometimes we have to
bridle where a motor point is,and so there's a lot of math
(24:50):
involved as far as where thepoint is going to land on the
ground and how you're going tomake that bridle, and also
weight distribution how much isthis leg of the bridle going to
have.
You have forces.
How is that bridle leg going topull on that beam and what are
(25:10):
the forces on it?
There's just a multitude ofmath, a lot of math.
Yeah, Harry Donovan, who wasfrom this area, he kind of
started this ETCP thing.
In a respect he was giving outclasses in rigging.
I had just missed him.
(25:30):
I wanted to sign up for a classbut it was like thousands of
dollars to sign up for one ofhis classes that he taught and
then he passed away of cancer,so I never got a chance.
But I do work a lot with someof the people that worked around
him and helped him and also,you know, helped develop.
(25:53):
You know the way we rigged themodern day trade yeah.
And basically it's a test.
There's levels of rigging.
So you know when you start off,you know, you learn how to use
your harness, you learn how yourlanyards work and you learn
rope management and you go upand you're brawn.
(26:13):
You're just muscle and brawnand you're just pulling 100
pounds up to a grid, dependingon the height, and then if you
want to go beyond that, I meanit's basically self-propelled.
You know.
If you want to move furtherthan that and you're really like
, well, how does this work?
(26:33):
Why am I doing it this way?
Then you school yourself andthat's one way of doing it.
If you get that certification,it falls in certain applications
.
Some people want to see it, butI also hear a lot of derogatory
things about the certification,in which I have experienced
some of the other side in someaspects and which an example
(26:58):
would be there was a kid that wehired in our industry and he
had worked in construction andhad done crane rigging.
You need 3,000 hours of riggingbefore you qualify to take the
test and then the kid had gottenhis 3,000 hours.
From that he was really brightand he memorized everything and
(27:20):
he went and took the test and hegot an arena riggings ETCP, but
he's never rigged inentertainment like a day in his
life.
Jon (27:29):
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Renee (27:30):
Yeah, when he walked in the door and he's got this ETCP
certification and he's like, yep, I want to be a rigger.
So we throw, you know thecompany throws him in and you
know he has no idea.
He has no idea what a bowling'sfor.
Why do we tie a bowling?
You know you got to throw itover the beam, put your foot in
(27:53):
it so that you can use bothhands to make your point.
Jon (27:58):
Oh, that's interesting.
I hadn't thought about that,because in all your different
types of rigging and riggingenvironments there are a lot of
constants.
I mean, the math is always thesame.
Renee (28:08):
Well, no, there's like about different ways of doing
the same math, about differentways of doing the same math.
Jon (28:13):
But there is a lot of very unique, to some extent
intangible aspects of theentertainment industry where the
only way you're really going tolearn that is just by being
there and doing it and puttingin the time.
Renee (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that some people'scomplaints about the ETCP are
that it's bureaucracy, right, soyou get this certification and
then it's not easy to get at all.
Jon (28:39):
Well, I think that ultimately, I think that's good
right.
Renee (28:42):
Yes, yes, and I enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed studying forit.
I'm kind of nerdy like that.
I do really love my job and Ialways have more questions and I
always want to know more, andso it's not an easy test but it
does kind of guide you in thatfurther and beyond.
A lot of riggers that start out,you know, they get on the
(29:05):
ground and they don't know youplug a motor cable into a motor
and then that motor cable goesinto a distro, a motor and then
that motor cable goes into adistro and in order for that
distro to run you have to powerit and in order to run the
motors you've got to have apendant.
There's just so many, so manyvariables and things to learn
(29:29):
about that.
I just did a convention centergig and I was a production
rigger and we had a lot of newriggers from through our union
that were there and they'regreat, they want to learn,
they're hard workers, you know,but they had no idea.
You give them a cable andthey're like what, what is this?
How does this work?
And so the flow of work.
You know if I just stopeverything and I'm like, okay of
(29:55):
work.
You know if I just stopeverything and I'm like, okay,
let me give you a breakdown ofhow this all works really
quickly, then they learn it.
And then you're like, okay,let's go do the next trust.
Now I don't have to stop andtell you.
You know exactly how this allworks.
This is what I want done.
Go do it Right, and then theydo it.
Jon (30:09):
This part of the conversation right now is just
the other.
I was doing a podcast sessionwith Pyro Rick.
Yes, yes.
And we might actually we mighthave wound up talking about you
in part of that, but we'retalking about I see a parallel
with Pyro and rigging to whereit's a really you have to be
really selective in yourstaffing.
Yeah, and just a level of trustin your staffing.
(30:30):
Yeah, and just a level of trust.
There's zero margin for error.
Yeah, For obvious reasons.
Renee (30:37):
Right, absolutely, I would not want to burn or blow
up.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I love Rick.
I've known him for a long time.
Oh, he's one of the best.
Yeah, he's one of the best Allof events.
Jon (30:52):
concerts in particular, kind of infamous for long hours.
But in your role in particular,how do you balance that reality
with safety and quality control, just in terms of keeping
clear-headed and crossing allyour T's and dotting all your?
Renee (31:08):
I's.
So you're like and this is howI kind of started you know, like
I would rig at Clark Countyright, which is in southwestern
Washington close to the Oregonborder.
You know we had a little venuethere.
So I work 8 am, maybe fourhours, and then I've got the
(31:31):
whole day off and then I have tocome back at night or I might
run spotlight, but that's onedecision too.
Maybe you don't run spotlightand then you come for loadout
and you climb up there, take itall down and then you've got.
You have to drive to the GorgeAmphitheater, which is like a
four-hour drive, and you got towork at 8 am and you just got
(31:54):
off work at 2.
And you get in the car and youdrive all the way there.
This is a part of like thehustle right In the beginning
when you're new and you'retrying to get in and you're just
trying to survive and you justtake naps whenever you can.
You just got to make sure youeat, make sure you're getting
(32:14):
those naps in in those big gapstime.
And this is rock and roll.
You have a late loadout, earlymorning loadout and you've got
to go do a load in the next daysomewhere else or even in the
same venue.
Right, you're still limited totime and you know, I just say
(32:38):
like when you're younger itseems all right you make it.
Now that I'm a bit older, I'mglad that I'm not doing as much
of that anymore.
I mean, I still work long hoursand stuff A lot of it's
corporate coffee, making sureyou go to bed For me.
Like I'm not going to suggestanybody else, but one thing that
helps me like I'm sober.
So no alcohol anything likethat.
Jon (33:01):
That doesn't surprise me at all.
Renee (33:02):
For me that helps, because then you wake up
refreshed and everything I don'tknow, in that determined mind,
you just do it.
Jon (33:10):
Responsibility is kind of the key theme that I'm hearing
from you, yeah, and you know alot of it's.
Renee (33:14):
Muscle memory Right mind, you just do it.
Responsibility is kind of thekey theme that I'm hearing from
you.
Yeah, and you know a lot ofit's muscle memory.
You know it's like okay, I'mdoing the same thing and if I do
it in the steps, I'm not goingto miss anything.
Jon (33:25):
I would imagine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Iimagine you and your colleagues
are checking each other's workas you go along as well.
Renee (33:32):
Yeah, yeah, and we are so ridiculously safe though and
I'm not saying that as acomplaint or anything but even
in the chance that somethingwasn't right, it's still
probably going to be okay.
We have safety factors, youknow, and a lot of things that
(33:52):
we use over people's heads.
They have to have like a 10safety factor.
So if, like, a shackle can holdand that's a buffer, so if it
can hold 2,500 pounds and wewhittle it down to like a 10th
of that, Right, You're onlygoing to load it with 200, or
yeah?
Jon (34:12):
yeah, yeah.
Renee (34:12):
I mean because we have shock load, Yep and all of those
things, which is all variable.
Those are all question marks inthe air.
So if something is connected tothat shackle and it jumps in
the air five times, it's alwaysgoing to be a different weight.
You don't know what that is.
Jon (34:29):
Commercial airplanes are the same way.
You're mentioning Boeing andyour father's career at Boeing
early on.
I've had family at Boeing aswell and I know that these days
in particular, like any newcommercial airplane, it will
never in its lifetime seeone-tenth of the stress that it
can actually handle in terms ofaerodynamic stress.
(34:50):
There's no way you couldpossibly stress it more than 10%
of its rating.
Renee (34:55):
Yeah, and I've worked there and hung things in Boeing
both in Everett and down here inGeorgetown.
Jon (35:04):
The Everett plant's cool it's so big.
Renee (35:06):
Yeah, I love it when they roll the planes in.
Yeah, yeah, that's always agreat time.
We get to see the coolest stuffthat nobody else gets to see
Boeing planes and stuff likethat we get to see.
You know, all of that stuffthat it's not like and we call
people who aren't in ourindustry muggles.
(35:27):
They just don't understand right, dating is incredibly hard
because I have a load in andthen I have a load out, so and
they're like what is that?
You know, people are like whatyou know how does that work?
And and then on top of it, Iswear we have some of the most
genius people that we work with.
I mean, they've invented thingsthat are used outside of this
(35:53):
industry, right, but like it'sbeen invented, it's so amazing.
There's like this really greatdocumentary thing about the
Grateful Dead, you know, andthey toured around and I've seen
them a few times before Jerrydied.
I mean part of my music passion.
Right Early off when theystarted, I mean they kind of
pioneered rigging.
They decided they wanted tohang their audio right.
Jon (36:15):
They pioneered more than most people realize.
Renee (36:18):
Right, they're like we want to hang this audio.
Well, let's get this crappyrope and some block and falls
and we're going to climb aroundwithout a harness.
Jon (36:27):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Renee (36:27):
You know, and the weight of these things are just, oh God
, it was like lifting a dinosaur, right.
You know, and that documentaryis wonderful.
And I mean these audioengineers, just everybody, they
just love their job so much andthey're so nerdy, they're
(36:51):
married to their job.
Jon (36:52):
Right, that's what's kept me in the business my entire
adult life.
Really, that's what has pushedme to start this podcast is that
, at the end of the day, I justlove the people.
It's a bunch of goofballs, it'sa bunch of wackos, yep, but
damn it, I love them, I justlove everybody.
I'm trying to share some of thepeople.
I guess that's you included.
(37:13):
Oh, thank you.
Trying to share these beautifulpeople with the Muggles, yeah,
yeah and to share some ofourselves just even with each
other, you know, yeah, becausethere's so many trades where
we're all working under the sameroof together on any given day,
but we don't always have theopportunity to really understand
.
That's one of the opportunitiesthat I've been blessed to have,
(37:34):
like in a producer role.
I get to stand back and watchall the different pieces working
together and orchestrate that.
It just gives me an evenbroader appreciation for the
whole thing, and then everyperson that's involved with it
takes everybody.
Everybody.
Renee (37:53):
There are no marginally important roles in the business,
right, but it's tough.
Even if you're just a boxpusher, you know that box could
be a thousand pounds and youmight be pushing it up the gorge
ramp and it might be 110degrees out and you're in all
black.
Jon (38:12):
And none of that matters.
It's got to get done.
Renee (38:14):
Get your water.
I see it countless times.
That's one thing too.
I kind of like sometimes aboutbeing a rigger, because,
especially when we get a lot ofnew people, I'm like busy doing
my job in a respect, and I don'treally get to know people now
until they're staying around.
(38:34):
Because you know, I don't knowhow many times we've had a bunch
of people come out to whatevergig it could be anywhere and
they're like oh my God, I didn'trealize I was going to have to
down stack boxes out of a backof a semi.
This isn't really what Ipictured, you know.
And then they move on.
They're like you know, I'drather make burgers or whatever
it is, you know, each their own.
Jon (38:56):
Yeah, exactly, I totally get it.
Renee (38:58):
Exactly, but there is a certain tenacity you have to
have in order to make this intosomething that's sustainable
financially and for you.
But you also a lot of peopleget very, very wrapped up in it
and they forget, like when thepandemic hit, oh my God, my
mental wellness was showingitself.
(39:21):
I just did not have good mentalhealth.
The only thing I had was my job.
And then, all of a sudden,nothing Like oh, what am I going
to do?
I can't talk to anybody, Ican't do anything, I'm not going
anywhere.
How is this going to work out?
I wasn't necessarily so muchworried about finances, it was
(39:42):
just the whole like I'mextremely social, but I'd never
had to look at myself in themirror before.
Jon (39:48):
Social, but I'd never had to look at myself in the mirror
before I understand what you'resaying 100%.
In some of my prior episodes Italk about this, but when the
pandemic hit and all of a suddenI'm just sitting around at home
, forbidden from doing what I do, from doing what I've done my
entire adult life, and for me itwas just a flat-out identity
(40:09):
crisis.
After enough time I mean thefirst few months I was like okay
, I'm going to get governmentrelief money to sit around and
great, but over time it wore medown more and more and more
until eventually I got to thepoint where, I guess for the
first time, I thought about howmuch of my identity I've tied up
in my occupation, how much ofmy identity I've tied up in my
(40:34):
community.
Yeah, and so, taking that away,all of a sudden, it's like I
don't.
It was hard for me tounderstand who I even am anymore
, and enough time went by andit's like it wasn't even clear
when you know, we didn't knowwhen it was going to pick back
up or even if, for that matter,yeah, and it really, it really
did a number on me.
Renee (40:52):
Yeah.
Jon (40:52):
Really did a number, so I hear what you're saying.
Renee (40:55):
Yeah, that was crazy, but I mean, in some respects,
though, I came out the other end, thank goodness, right, but
there was a lot of things that Iignored about myself that I
really needed to work on, thingsthat I ignored about myself
that I really needed to work on,and so I have matured a lot
more since then and have beendoing that work.
(41:15):
I mean I just feel really,really lucky.
I'm in a good spot.
Jon (41:21):
I'm happy to hear that A lot of people just got out of
the biz altogether yeah, Acatastrophic amount.
And so I heard you say earliertalking about you're on a gig
and you've got like a wholebunch of I'm using air quotes
right now, new riggers, Greenhands, Green hands yeah, no
that's.
I mean that starts to presentits own kind of a problem.
But I know that all of thetrades have experienced that,
(41:43):
because I dare say 50%, maybenationwide, of everybody in the
biz just got out.
Renee (41:48):
Yeah.
Jon (41:49):
Went and got straight jobs somewhere.
Renee (41:51):
And you know, and I want to say that you know, I was
beating my head into a brickwall trying to break out into
this touring world.
It's really what I want.
I dropped it, you know, and Isaw things, some things that are
more important, you know, andyou let go of things and it kind
of comes to you and I'm stilllike, kind of, I'm on that path,
(42:12):
I'm not letting anyone, I'mrelentless, like I'm not gonna
let anyone tell me what I want,or I just have so many people
that surround me there that havetoured or whatever, and they're
like you're not gonna like itand I'm like well, let me have
the experience and I will tellyou later if you're right or not
.
But just because you told methat, oh, it's bad and I don't
(42:37):
you know this and that orwhatever, you know, you're just
quit trying to discourage me.
You know why don't you try touplift me?
But you know, in the same thing, like you know, learning things
that are important, I livealone now, which is great here,
and I do have a partner and wehave a place in Mexico.
I go there and I decompress, oh, nice, and yeah, and we've got
(43:02):
some land and we're going toWhereabouts, to Mexico, in
Oaxaca, on the coast, oh wow.
Jon (43:07):
Yeah.
Renee (43:08):
I was just there for like all the.
I was there for three monthsand I'll tell you what, like it
seems like almost like thedeeper I get in, the more like
politics sometimes are thrown atme and like right before I left
in November, I was in themiddle of some of the biggest
political.
I don't know, that's funny,it's not even a word.
(43:28):
I like the way it sounded.
Jon (43:28):
I biggest political, or I don't know.
That's funny, it's not even aword.
Renee (43:30):
I like the way it sounded .
I know political, political.
I was in some huge politics.
Like by accident I just showedup to work, I didn't want
nothing to do with it, right.
And now I'm faced with likethis huge drama and I don't want
to go into it.
You know I don't want to likespread that all out there, but
it was several things.
You know I don't want to likespread that all out there, but
(43:53):
it was several things allhitting me at once and it was
like so stressful and and so Iat least I have my own apartment
and I can go to my apartmentand like I can be like, okay,
work's done.
Now what am I going to do?
I got painting, I'm going topaint.
There's this book that I'mreading.
I'm going to go to that to justkind of let go of all of that
(44:13):
and it's extremely stressful.
And then I went down to Mexicoduring the holidays and
everything and stayed with myboyfriend and my cat.
My cat lives there.
It was just something that Ineeded.
But yeah, living alone too forme and just kind of making that
big separation between job andpersonal life is huge.
Jon (44:38):
I do have to call you out just for a moment, because
earlier you were saying you know, I don't know what it is, I'm
just kind of naturally cheerfuland positive.
But you didn't mention thatyou're spending at least three
months a year on the beach inOaxaca, so it's like you'd
better be cheerful.
Renee (44:54):
Right.
It only started in like duringthe pandemic, to be honest.
So it really started in 2020.
Yeah, so it's.
I mean, it's a new, fresh step.
Jon (45:05):
What kind of advice would you offer to young people who
might be thinking about lookingat a career in event rigging?
Renee (45:15):
Hang in there.
Jon (45:17):
That's a pun.
Renee (45:18):
Right, yeah, definitely Hang in there.
Well, I mean only if you knowrope access.
If it's something that youreally want to do, I would say
you kind of have to stay neutralwith people.
Take the knowledge where youcan get it.
I have had so many wonderfulpeople, wonderful men that you
(45:40):
know have mentored me.
I really, really appreciatethem a lot, and part of it is
because I kind of just stay outof politics and I take people
for the way they treat me.
I try not to bring emotion towork.
It was really hard in thebeginning, like I would get so
tired.
You're like, how do you handlebeing tired and working?
(46:02):
And you know I'd work two orthree gigs in a row and I would
be so exhausted Like I probablyonly had, you know, six hours of
sleep in that time period.
I'm so exhausted and you justcry.
You just start crying.
You start taking everythingpersonal.
You're like, oh, that persondoesn't like me and I don't know
(46:23):
why.
And you know, oh, you know, andyou start crying.
Whatever, you're just exhausted.
We're pretty.
You know, to rigors can bepretty to the point.
One thing that's important isterminology.
So I'm getting to like thenewbie part, but you know you
have to be like, hey, push thatpoint to the clevis or you're
(46:45):
like your shackles spun.
I mean, there's a lot ofterminology, you know, you got
to know that and like whensomeone's directing you to get
something done.
It is nothing personal, it isstrictly we don't have time.
It's a serious job.
Just don't bring your feelingsto work and just keep a good,
positive attitude and just dothe best you can and you'll get
(47:07):
pushed forward quite a bit.
Jon (47:09):
You just made me think that in your trade in particular
probably more so than othersthere's a certain amount of
humility that's pretty muchrequisite.
Renee (47:19):
Oh yeah.
Jon (47:20):
Nothing's personal, because you can't fake it Right.
You cannot BS your way throughyour job.
People will die.
Renee (47:28):
Yeah.
Jon (47:28):
With that comes nobody knows everything every day,
right?
So you have to be able to takethat, like you said, just take
blunt direction and notinternalize it.
Renee (47:39):
Yeah, exactly.
And also when it comes tohumility, to admit what you did
wrong, yeah, and learn.
Yes, now, I don't expect.
Sometimes it can be a littlebit of word on the street about
oh, did you hear so-and-sodropped a shackle or whatever.
But I mean overall like it's alearning experience for the
(48:01):
whole community If a shackledropped and everybody's like who
dropped that shackle?
Don't go hide behind somebody.
Jon (48:08):
Yeah, step forward, own it.
Renee (48:09):
Yeah, own it and then you can also share.
Well, what was it that happened, that made that situation
happen?
And they always try to teach.
It's not a matter of if, it's amatter of when, because gravity
always wins.
I've worked with a greathandful of riggers that have
never dropped anything,according to them, and that is
(48:36):
admirable.
And it's because it takes somegreat patience when you're
working, because we want to befast.
The old saying is you know, wewant to come in and get the job
done and be at the bar drinkingwhile we're still getting paid,
because we get paid in minimums,right?
So if we can get the job donein two hours, that gives us time
to go down to the bar, have acouple beers with all our
co-workers and laugh about itand be like, hey, I'm still
(48:59):
getting paid.
You know it comes withefficiency and being slow in the
beginning, so it's like don'tbe afraid to be slow.
Each step that you take isgoing to advance you leaps and
bounds.
Jon (49:12):
What's that saying?
I think it's like an armysaying slow is steady and steady
is fast.
Renee (49:18):
Yeah.
Jon (49:19):
Or something like that, yeah exactly.
Renee (49:21):
We had one of the companies that I've worked for
in the past had like a stagehandOlympics right and one of them
was who can get on their harnessthe fastest?
Jon (49:30):
right, I've wanted to do something like that.
I had that idea a long time ago, so somebody actually does that
.
Renee (49:37):
Well, they don't do it anymore.
It was just one like companypicnic that they had.
Jon (49:41):
Oh, okay, I see what you're saying.
They decided to have that.
I see what you're saying.
Renee (49:50):
So they put me in there and I was with, actually, a
couple of new guys and me thefirst two guys.
They're getting on theirharnesses and they're just
trying to put it on as fast aspossible.
They're trying to get theirfoot in the leg hole but it's
not staying straight.
They're having trouble andthey're getting snagged on stuff
.
They get one leg in and thenthey're trying to put it over
their head and they're like notgetting their arm through the
(50:12):
hole and they're just likestruggling the whole time
because they're trying to besuper fast, right, and then
they're like I felt like peppylepew, oh that's awesome they're
like okay, renee your turn.
so I just like get the harnessand I put it on kind of like a
pair of pants, and then I justlike put it over my head and get
my arms in.
I'm just slow totally slow.
(50:35):
And then I think one of theindicators that you were done in
this competition was that youhad to take your lanyards and
clip them to your side door,your side rings, and and then,
like you know, if you had it on,you're done and I did.
I mean I was so fast.
Like you know, you had it onyou're done and I did.
I mean I was so fast, like,compared to them, but I looked
like I had no effort at all andI won a hundred bucks.
Jon (50:57):
So that's fantastic.
So like, there you go.
I've always wanted to do anindustry Olympics kind of thing
like that.
My special skill like if I wereto imagine myself participating
, I can pick up a quarter off ofthe ground with the forks of a
5k forklift.
Oh, that's cool.
I haven't done that in probably10 or 15 years, but I know I
(51:18):
could do it right now if I had aforklift oh my gosh.
Renee (51:21):
Well, I could tie a cherry stem in a knot with my
tongue there you go.
Jon (51:27):
Same kind of overall importance in the big scheme of
things, right.
Renee (51:31):
That was like a teenage, like sitting at Denny's skill,
that's exactly what I did.
Jon (51:38):
A couple of fun just kind of fun questions for you.
What's the highest elevationoff the ground you've ever
worked?
Renee (51:46):
I've probably been, I think, like 400 feet, 400?
.
Jon (51:50):
Where.
Renee (51:51):
That's like Lumen Field.
Is it that high?
I think the arches are aboutfour.
Are they 400 feet?
I don't know.
They said something about thatbeing 400 feet Because it was
like where we put in the banners, so like there's a bunch of
banners that are around thestadium that have, like Steve
(52:13):
Largent's number and all thatkind of stuff.
They're on these huge frames andeither, like, the championships
change and they want to changethe banner, you know, or they
want to change the position ofit.
You know we'll take the wholeframe down, take the banner down
and put them back up.
And oftentimes we're below,right below the arches, on that
(52:37):
side of the roof, and we'redoing rope access, and so they
said that from there down to thefield was about 200 feet.
Jon (52:46):
Oh yeah, I guess that's about right.
Renee (52:48):
So, yeah, and I mean I still work.
You know I've never been firedfrom my companies, you know.
But sometimes, you know, you gothrough these ebb and flow of
who you're working for.
Maybe you're growing in yourcareer and you're getting a
little more.
You know you're giving more ofthe direction than doing the
labor.
And I did a lot of themaintenance at, like, lumen
(53:10):
Field it's so hard to call itthat I want to call it
CenturyLink.
It was CenturyLink mostly whenI worked there, but we were
doing the lifelines.
There's a set of lifelines upthere.
We were like testing theanchors, and so I've been up
there and it's pretty amazing.
And one day I had to go upthere and it was right after an
(53:30):
earthquake and I was like, oh,should we be going up there?
What if there's a biggerearthquake?
You know, and my boss is likeman, it's like the safest place
to be you know?
Jon (53:39):
Yeah, that's probably true, being relatively new
construction, yeah Well, it's abig sidewalk.
Renee (53:47):
But Do you have a favorite gig that you ever
worked on of all time?
One time I worked Soundgardenat the Gorge and I got to run
Spotlight on Chris Cornell.
That was really fun.
I really do enjoy doing thebanner changes at Lumen Field
(54:13):
because I love.
I mean I feel out of all theparts of rigging, I feel like
being on rope.
I feel most comfortable but itcan be some of the hardest work.
You're on rope, you get torepel, you get to jug up you
know that's all great.
But then you got to drill intothe side of a building with a
big giant drill and throughcement and you're pushing
yourself away from the building.
So that's another whole notherchallenge.
(54:33):
But I do like doing those.
Those are fun and the reveals.
You know, when they reveal iton television sometimes we'll be
there to like do that.
They don't see us, we're notthere.
But I really like Jane'sAddiction.
One time I was working them andI was ready for the loadout and
I was upstage and they weresinging Jane Says and this is at
(54:54):
the Gorge too and I could justsee like the whole crowd going
wild, singing along and I'm likeit's just from my younger self.
You know that music came outand it really touches me.
You know came out and it reallytouches me.
You know it's really hard tosay like my favorite.
I mean a lot of times it's theexperience afterwards seeing the
(55:18):
band or getting to be in thatexperience there.
But like the favorite, likework, I mean yeah, I think
rappelling and doing the bannerswould be some of my favorite.
Oh, you know what?
The weekend Say more man.
I just I had more.
Like it was great to be in thatsense of community, with all my
(55:38):
co-workers, you know, travelingfrom place to place, and then we
were treated really well.
We had really nice hotels.
You know we're at the stadiums,the rig, you know I got to
climb every day and see the viewand the different stadiums and
the challenge of even justgetting to a shower after you're
(56:01):
done.
Where's the women's shower?
I finally nailed it.
I was like all right, the girlsshowers are here.
I, you know, before here,before that loadout, on the
loadout day in the morning whenI arrive, I find that first.
So then after I know, right,where to go, right, I love my
artist.
The weekend I fell in love withthe music and my heart was in
(56:25):
it, my heart's in the work andmy coworkers.
The last song that we closedwith was Blinding Lights.
We'd be all backstage likedancing and singing along and
stuff like yeah, this is aloadout song, we're going to go,
we're getting on the bus afterthis and just it was amazing and
then seeing the crowd and howmuch they really enjoyed it.
Jon (56:48):
And then seeing the crowd and how much they really enjoyed
it.
Have you gotten to the point?
Renee (56:56):
yet where you've taken a newbie under your wing, so to
speak, in terms of a mentor role.
Yes, I mean, I have severaltimes, but it's not anything
that I note to myself.
So it's funny after years.
It's really because, you know,you don't look at yourself that
way in always and you know, Ilike I was um, a second on um,
(57:18):
and what that means is likethere'll be a head rigger and
then he'll have his second and Iwas a second on beyond
wonderland, out at the gorge andat the end of the show, like
we're the riggers, we're gettingthe rigging done for lighting
and audio and video and all ofthat stuff.
And then we get done, you know,and we're all like the whole
(57:39):
production, we're all like, yay,we got it done, we made it
through.
And we kind of have a littleparty afterwards and one of the
guys comes up to me and he'slike Renee, don't you remember
when you taught me this, thisand this?
And I'm like no, like I, youknow, makes me stop and think,
oh, people are looking at me,wow.
You know, Okay, and I actuallyhave gotten that a few times and
(58:05):
I and it makes me feel goodabout myself I'm glad that I can
help and people are learningand becoming better at what they
do.
Yeah.
Jon (58:17):
Indeed.
So you're walking into an icecream shop and you're going to
get a cone with two scoops.
What are the flavors?
Renee (58:27):
Oh, caramel and chocolate .
Or how about chocolate andcoconut, with maybe some caramel
drizzle?
Jon (58:35):
Which one goes on top.
Renee (58:38):
The coconut.
Jon (58:41):
That's one of my favorite questions.
I ask everybody.
Never gotten the same answertwice.
Oh awesome, Renee.
It's been a delightfulconversation.
Thanks for making the timetoday.
Renee (58:52):
Oh yeah, Thank you for having me All call One hour till
doors.
This is Renee Munholand and you're listening to One Hour
Till Doors.
Jon (00:12):
This is One Hour Till Doors , a podcast about the business
and soul of the festivals andevents industry.
I am your host, Jon Stone.
Every episode of One Hour toDoors explores the people,
issues, insights and trendsimpacting the enterprise of
bringing people and communitiestogether in common cause.
Our guest today is ReneeMunholand, a certified
(00:37):
first-call high-rigger basedhere in Seattle.
Her highly specialized worktakes her from the stage roof at
the Gorge Amphitheater to thearches above Lumen Field in
Seattle and from touring withthe Weeknd to the Super Bowl.
Welcome to the show, Renee,thank you.
So, Renee, you and I haveworked on I don't know how many
(00:58):
gigs together over the years,but I was thinking about this
this morning.
But I was thinking about thisthis morning.
We've never really sat down andhad long conversation because
at the gigs, either I'mpreoccupied with something or
you're at least 60 or 80 feetover my head, yeah, so it's
great to have an opportunity tojust sit here at ground level
(01:19):
together.
Renee (01:20):
Yes.
Jon (01:21):
It's taken many years to get to this point.
Yeah, how do you describe yourjob to the layperson?
Renee (01:29):
Well, I will just start off by saying that I build
concerts and I'll just add in,maybe, that I also do
conventions.
You know, I work at height, orI will guide the crews that are
working at height, and I'll belike you see everything up in
(01:52):
the air.
Jon (01:52):
I put it there.
Yeah, that's the way I describethe trade to others.
You are the people who areresponsible for everything
that's hanging over your head.
Renee (02:00):
Yeah.
Jon (02:01):
What's your origin?
Renee (02:01):
story Where'd you grow up ?
Yeah, what's your origin story?
Where'd you grow up?
So I was born in Renton,actually, and my father, he, was
employed at Boeing.
Oh, what did he do at Boeing?
He was an electrical engineerand I guess, from what I
understand, he would fly withthe planes in different
(02:22):
conditions and check the gaugesand whatnot.
Jon (02:25):
Okay, yeah, so test flight.
Renee (02:27):
Yeah, and then we moved to the Tri-City area.
My brother was born there.
I have a little brother and myparents divorced when I was like
five and then my dad gainedcustody of my brother and I and
moved us to the Portland area.
(02:47):
So I lived in Tualatin andHillsborough, Oregon, and then
after that we lived there untilI was about 14.
And it wasn't like the best ofsituations.
I love my dad but we kind ofneeded mom.
So I kind of had to go to courtagainst him to live with my
(03:10):
mother and I haven't seen himsince.
But then my mom did gaincustody of us and we moved back
to the Tri-City area.
After high school I've lived inStanfield, Oregon, Hermiston,
Oregon and Umatilla, Oregon, andthen I married and had my
(03:34):
daughter and we moved up toYakima and then his job took us
to Ellensburg, Washington, andthen, when we decided that we
wanted to go our separate ways,I moved up here, back up here to
Seattle.
So you've been all over theNorthwest.
Yeah, I'm totally a Northwestgirl.
Jon (03:54):
At what point did you decide to get into the
entertainment industry?
Renee (03:59):
That's so funny.
In like 2008, when the economycrashed, we had moved to
Ellensburg and I got a job witha dentist.
I had gone to college shortlyafter my daughter was born and I
got certified in dentistry.
I was working in Yakima anddriving back and forth from
(04:19):
Ellensburg to Yakima every dayuntil I'd gotten a job in
Ellensburg, and usually in adental office, the staff like
their doctor, you know, theystay with them for a long time
and there was only like a coupleof dentists in the Ellensburg
area.
There were some changes in theoffice I was in and I ended up
(04:41):
getting laid off and you know, Ithink there was like three
dentist's office there and allof the staff were from
Ellensburg and like stayed there.
So there's no openings.
So I needed a job.
I had a family and a stagehandjob came across my job searching
and I went for it and it was sofunny.
(05:03):
I didn't know, you know at allanything about the industry, so
I was really worried.
I wanted the job very badly.
I always joked around to peoplethat I probably have paid
enough money in concerts to havelike put myself through like a
four year college degree,four-year college degree.
But I found this job and I waslike, oh my gosh, I don't have
(05:25):
experience.
Oh, are they going to hire me?
Oh my gosh, what's going tohappen?
Oh my gosh, I just hope I getthis job.
And not knowing anything aboutit, I think I like they had a
question for me, the employer,they asked me something and I
was like telling them my anxietyand stuff, like, oh my gosh,
(05:46):
and they're like, don't worryabout it.
And they looked at my email andthey were like, you're going to
get along just fine with us.
I have a silly email that islike the world's oldest email,
but it has some numbers in itthat make it funny, and so they
(06:06):
thought I would, you know, fitright in.
And so at the same time when Istarted there, I also had to
transition to a different careerin ophthalmology, and so I went
from dentistry to ophthalmology, which is working for an eye
doctor, and then I didstagehanding on the side.
(06:27):
So that's kind of how I got in.
So how'd you go from stagehandto rigging, in particular, Well,
I'll never forget, like rightaway when I started as a
stagehand, I worked mostly outat the gorge because I was only
about a half an hour 45 minutedrive from there and the riggers
that were there they had, youknow immediately said, like
(06:51):
maybe I should try rigging and Iwas very cautious about it.
I'm like I don't know if Iwould enjoy heights.
I don't know, you know, if thisis really for me.
Like I just kind of was new inthe industry and to me it wasn't
about money at all.
Like, really to this day, myjob really isn't about money.
(07:13):
I just enjoy it and I want tolove it and I love seeing, no
matter what kind of job I do, itbeing an ice capades to like
some convention or anything.
I really take a lot of pride inseeing the people enjoying it.
Right, that they really areenjoying it.
(07:35):
I kind of just brush that asideand just focused on being a
stagehand and being happy andalso working.
And then my daughter she wasyoung and my husband.
So I was really overwhelmed,like I would started working to
the point where I didn't everget a day off and I was just
(07:58):
working every day.
But then when I wanted to rig.
I felt like I wanted growth andI was like I'm ready to try
that now.
And when I said I was ready, ittook me a while.
It was like after a couple ofyears in the industry I was like
(08:19):
ready to go and I had to fighttooth and nail just to get in.
It was hard.
Jon (08:28):
Say more about that.
Renee (08:29):
You know, to get a class so that I could have the
training for fall protection.
I would never know when theywere, they would never invite me
to them, you know.
So I'm talking to the rigger,the rigging manager, constantly.
I'm like, hey, I want to dothis, tell me when there's a
class.
I was told that, and here inWashington State, especially
(08:53):
like here in Seattle, there isan exceptional amount of female
riggers comparatively to therest of the country.
Right, it's not very commonthat you see female riggers.
Jon (09:05):
I was going to ask about that.
Renee (09:06):
Yeah, but we had a lot.
I mean, there was probably agood handful of them that I
could name that were working asriggers at the time, and so I
had confronted my riggingmanager and I'm like, hey, I
want to take the class.
And I swear this guy.
He's like I don't know what itis about some of the men
(09:30):
sometimes in riggingspecifically, but they're just
awkward.
I think they just really don'tknow what to say and like, maybe
they don't have.
They didn't have, like thisparticular person didn't have
the capacity for trying to getme in.
I mean, I had a full-time job,right, I didn't live here in
(09:51):
Seattle, so like how is thatgoing to benefit them on a large
scale when they really justneed people, when they need them
, right, and to put that effortin and I gonna make it right?
Like am I gonna stand the testof time?
Because that is a huge thingfor new riggers.
We can hire and train and get alarge quantity of people who
(10:16):
think they want to do it, butthen when they really see the
job and they really understandit, they're like, oh, I don't
want to do this.
Jon (10:23):
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
I mean, I'm projecting here,but rigging is one.
It's intensely physical, moreso than just about any other gig
.
There's a lot of training, moreso than most any other gig, and
that training is crucial.
So that's a big investment inwhoever's doing the training and
(10:43):
then just the raw trust thathas to happen.
You're holding people's livesand livelihoods in your hand
every minute of every day.
I get that there's a filtrationprocess of sort, yeah, yeah.
Renee (10:55):
You know, and I mean even just in the industry overall,
even if you just start off as astagehand, you know it's funny,
so I went through 2008.
Just start off as a stagehand,you know it's funny, so I went
through 2008.
And the funny part aboutgetting hired into the industry
during that time is that youknow the economy crashed.
So are people spending money onentertainment?
No, they're not, right, theycan't even afford their mortgage
(11:17):
, right, everybody's losingtheir houses, they're losing
their jobs.
And it was really kind of funnythat I got hired during that
time period, because then itramps up and then, when it ramps
up, all of a sudden we needpeople, right, we need people
and so we get people.
But like it's really tough tonavigate, just in the industry
(11:38):
overall, how to make this asuccessful career, how you can
survive off of it, because it'snot a Monday through Friday,
nine to five job.
That's guaranteed work.
You have to hustle, you have toget your name out there, get
the seniority, you have to getall the other jobs and you have
(11:59):
to make sure you know you'remaking the right choices and
picking the right jobs, and likemaking the money right in order
to get money coming in on aregular basis.
That's one thing about rigging,but I'd say it's a little more
on an upper scale thanstagehanding.
Because, yes, there is anelement at some point not always
(12:22):
not when you start, but at somepoint there is a level of skill
and knowledge that you canbring to the table which makes
you very valuable and hireable.
Like they need you.
We need someone who can thinkrather than just be a monkey and
pull a rope, you know.
(12:42):
And so this particular gentlemanthat I'm inquiring about
getting in.
First of all, my personality isover the top bubbly, right.
I'm always happy I'm showing upto work.
I love everyone hugging,everyone saying hi, I know
everybody's names.
I'm like, you know, I'mstepping out of this career of
like ophthalmology, where youknow I'm checking, and out of
(13:06):
this career of likeophthalmology where you know,
I'm checking people's eyepressure and their eyeglasses,
prescription and their healthand all of this stuff.
And then I'm going and this ismy fun time, right?
So my impression on the peoplethat I'm working with they're
like, oh, she doesn't like takethis seriously, right?
Like she's not, and no one'sever really told me that.
But I can kind of step backfrom myself and think that about
(13:27):
myself, you know, at the time.
So.
So the answer that I get fromthis this rigging manager is he
said you know, like girls can'treally do this job.
Oh, job and you know, reallyit's like you know, I don't you
(13:49):
know, he, yeah, he saidsomething about how I'm a girl
and I probably can't do it, orsomething like that, and I just
like.
Jon (13:59):
And this was in our lifetime that you're hearing
this.
Renee (14:01):
Yes, and like I said again, like we had over like a
handful of female riggers at thetime right.
Jon (14:09):
Yeah.
Renee (14:11):
And I was like what the hell?
And I went through this throughmy mind, rigging manager and I
like it's very rare that I'veever turned someone in for like
inappropriateness right.
But but also, you know, I'mlike, I called up the, the HR,
(14:36):
and I, and I'm like you know,this guy told me that I can't do
it because I'm a girl.
Jon (14:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and.
Renee (14:43):
I just said.
You know I'm not like you know,a lawsuit person or anything,
but you know he probablyshouldn't be saying that
response.
He can think it, but heshouldn't be saying something
like that.
He was like the most sociallyawkward.
Like it just accidentally comesout right and if that's really
(15:06):
what he thought or not, I don'tknow, I'm not in control of that
, but I have to say I thinkmaybe calling the HR kind of
they're like we better give hera shot right Might have bumped
them into the 21st century right, might have bumped them into
(15:28):
the 21st century.
Yeah, no, I still know them.
Jon (15:30):
We're friends.
I don't know.
I mean, look everybody in ourline of biz, we've all got
really thick skin.
Renee (15:36):
Yeah.
Jon (15:37):
And we all love to talk, smack, yeah A lot.
That's just kind of part of thetrade, I suppose.
But what you're describing isjust over the top.
Renee (15:48):
I just I couldn't believe it.
But I think what it is is justthat lack of sociability to like
to maybe just say no, like notreally know how, to how to get
that out verbally to somebodywith it just came out that way,
like it just came outinappropriate.
Now I'm not like giving him apass, but it's like already in
(16:14):
the past right and so I'vealready, like I decided I wasn't
going to let that stop me.
I'm driven right and that's notgoing to stop me.
I just kept moving forward andI kind of laughed at it.
It was funny, it was reallypretty funny.
Jon (16:35):
So, since you've opened up this whole can of worms here and
everything I'm about to say,I'm saying at least partly
tongue in cheek.
I know many of your colleaguesand there's a I'll just call it
a stereotype, but in my, from myperspective, riggers on average
tend to be one of the grumpiertype crews.
Maybe they're not grumpyamongst yourselves, but they're
(16:56):
grumpy with everybody else.
But you've always beendifferent.
Like I've never seen you grumpy.
Every time I'm looking, youseem to be having a good time
enjoying your work.
Renee (17:06):
Oh yeah.
Jon (17:07):
Even towards the end of the 18-hour day you always appear
to be happy as if it were onlythe first couple hours of the
call, whereas on average mosteverybody else in the trade.
As the day goes on, kind ofthat attitude starts to sink
With, you know, just exhaustion.
Renee (17:23):
Yeah.
Jon (17:24):
Physical, emotional, but you seem to be immune to that
somewhat.
Renee (17:28):
Yeah, it's my preferred feeling Like.
I just prefer to be happy and Ilike to have a bright outlook
on things.
Oh, that's fantastic so youknow, I guess I'm like.
There's a lot of people theircups are half full and mine's
full.
You know, that's how I feel.
Jon (17:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it has an impact on the job site,
especially in the latter half ofthe day.
It just takes one or two peoplewho are openly displaying a
good, happy, positive mood Kindof lifts everybody up for that
final push.
Or, conversely, if you don'thave that, if everybody just
gets progressively grumpier,it's like this downward spiral.
(18:09):
Yeah, you know to where it getsreally hard to cross that
finish line.
Roll down the last door on thetruck or whatever.
Yeah, you know to where it getsreally hard to cross that
finish line.
Roll down the last door on thetruck or whatever.
Yes, do you work mostly locally?
I know you have done sometouring, but are you?
Renee (18:26):
mostly local.
Do you travel around?
I'm kind of mostly local.
I do enjoy traveling around.
Like when you mentioned, I doenjoy traveling around.
Like when you mentioned, likewhen I worked the Super Bowl
that was in Glendale Arizona, Iactually went there and stayed
with my brother and I worked forlike a month, I think I had two
days off.
That was fun, I loved it.
(18:47):
And I've gone down to San Diegoand I worked.
I had a friend working thisparticular gig and I wanted to
work it.
So I just got a hold of my bossand I said, hey, can I?
I'm going to be down there, CanI work?
And they were like, yeah, sure,and then I also have toured.
I mean, I have to say that thatis what I really want to do,
(19:12):
touring.
Yes, that is what I'm here for.
Why, like, I want a tour?
There's so many reasons for meand a lot of people, a lot of
people I'm surrounded by, theyhate it, they don't like it.
They're like you won't like it.
And, honestly, my first, theone tour that I've been on the
(19:34):
Weeknd, you know I enjoyed it, Ihad a great time and I was
probably spoiled.
Like in that particular tour, Iwas probably really spoiled
compared to like always touringlife, but I have nothing really
keeping me here.
I love to explore.
As far as like travel and allthat kind of stuff, I'm a
(19:55):
minimalist, so I don't have alot Like, I mean my.
When you walk into my apartmentright now, it is it's like a
hotel, like the bed's made, allthe dishes are clean, all the
four dishes that I own.
I just get to be in what I loveto do and I like it because I
(20:20):
work with different people allthe time.
I'm working with a whole newset of faces.
I love meeting people andgetting to know them and I learn
from other people too, and Ilearn from other people too, and
it's always a learningexperience.
Like just the new, like venueor any of that.
I like fresh and new and keepgoing and and and like the focus
(20:45):
on work.
I don't have to worry about howam I going to get to work, right
, I'm there, I wake up,somebody's like there's
breakfast over there.
I go, eat some breakfast, youknow, and then go straight to
work.
And then, you know, go rest orwhatever.
The more I work, juststationary here or whatever, I
(21:08):
love my people.
Don't get me wrong.
People Don't get me wrong, butthere is a level of politics
that I am just not built for.
You know, I'm not here to bepolitical, I just want to go to
work and I want to do my job andI want to enjoy it and, yes, I
(21:28):
want to be paid right.
But I end up getting in themiddle of some of these politics
and it's weird.
I think I've slipped throughcracks, because a lot of times I
don't have these complaintsthat other people have about
things.
Like I just like, oh, I don'tlike that.
Well then, I'm just going to goover here, you know, and maybe
(21:50):
that's not so good, I need tostand up for my coworkers or
whatever, and I try and I do thebest that I can.
But, like, honestly, I'm nothere to make those kind of
statements.
I want to get on the road, Iwant to enjoy my job, I want to
enjoy the people I'm workingwith and I'm seeing different
things.
Jon (22:11):
What's the ratio of the type of gigs you're working
these days?
I mean, you're doing concerts,you're talking about sports.
I imagine you're probably doingsome corporate stuff here and
there.
What's the mix like for you?
Renee (22:24):
Well, I have moved downtown Seattle so I live
downtown and I no longer have acar.
So that is actually been a verybeautiful thing for me.
It has kind of helped me withwork-life balance and I work
(22:44):
basically whatever's the closestand you know it also pays more.
Whatever's closest to meactually pays me more.
It's kind of a 50-50.
I work a lot of Climate Pledge,I work a lot of Convention
Center, and so those are aboutthe two things that I do.
Since the pandemic has kind oflifted and they've opened the
(23:08):
new side of the ConventionCenter, they've been pushing a
lot of gigs through thosebuildings.
Jon (23:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Renee (23:15):
They are, I think, one of the only places in the country
it may have changed a little bitbut that require this ETCP
certification that I do have.
That kind of gives you a higherpay.
Jon (23:32):
What's the ETCP certification?
Renee (23:35):
It's Entertainment Technician Arena Rigging.
That's horrible, I don'tremember.
Jon (23:45):
Oh sorry, I get the idea.
Renee (23:46):
Yeah, but it's.
Is it a national certificationor yes, it's specific to our
country?
Really, it's a test on, like,overall knowledge.
You have to memorize thingslike what hardware limitations
are, so like a certain shacklecan handle this much weight, and
what the breaking strength isof it.
(24:08):
The rigging industry inentertainment is probably the
safest, the most scrutinized inthe fact that we scrutinize
everything that we do, versuslike ironworking or even crane
lifting or even ship rigging,because we're hanging these
things over people's heads Right.
(24:30):
You memorize the differentpieces of hardware that you use,
what their capabilities are.
There's also a lot of math,because when you make a point I
don't want to get too deep intoit, but sometimes we have to
bridle where a motor point is,and so there's a lot of math
(24:50):
involved as far as where thepoint is going to land on the
ground and how you're going tomake that bridle, and also
weight distribution how much isthis leg of the bridle going to
have.
You have forces.
How is that bridle leg going topull on that beam and what are
(25:10):
the forces on it?
There's just a multitude ofmath, a lot of math.
Yeah, Harry Donovan, who wasfrom this area, he kind of
started this ETCP thing.
In a respect he was giving outclasses in rigging.
I had just missed him.
(25:30):
I wanted to sign up for a classbut it was like thousands of
dollars to sign up for one ofhis classes that he taught and
then he passed away of cancer,so I never got a chance.
But I do work a lot with someof the people that worked around
him and helped him and also,you know, helped develop.
(25:53):
You know the way we rigged themodern day trade yeah.
And basically it's a test.
There's levels of rigging.
So you know when you start off,you know, you learn how to use
your harness, you learn how yourlanyards work and you learn
rope management and you go upand you're brawn.
(26:13):
You're just muscle and brawnand you're just pulling 100
pounds up to a grid, dependingon the height, and then if you
want to go beyond that, I meanit's basically self-propelled.
You know.
If you want to move furtherthan that and you're really like
, well, how does this work?
(26:33):
Why am I doing it this way?
Then you school yourself andthat's one way of doing it.
If you get that certification,it falls in certain applications
.
Some people want to see it, butI also hear a lot of derogatory
things about the certification,in which I have experienced
some of the other side in someaspects and which an example
(26:58):
would be there was a kid that wehired in our industry and he
had worked in construction andhad done crane rigging.
You need 3,000 hours of riggingbefore you qualify to take the
test and then the kid had gottenhis 3,000 hours.
From that he was really brightand he memorized everything and
(27:20):
he went and took the test and hegot an arena riggings ETCP, but
he's never rigged inentertainment like a day in his
life.
Jon (27:29):
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Renee (27:30):
Yeah, when he walked in the door and he's got this ETCP
certification and he's like, yep, I want to be a rigger.
So we throw, you know thecompany throws him in and you
know he has no idea.
He has no idea what a bowling'sfor.
Why do we tie a bowling?
You know you got to throw itover the beam, put your foot in
(27:53):
it so that you can use bothhands to make your point.
Jon (27:58):
Oh, that's interesting.
I hadn't thought about that,because in all your different
types of rigging and riggingenvironments there are a lot of
constants.
I mean, the math is always thesame.
Renee (28:08):
Well, no, there's like about different ways of doing
the same math, about differentways of doing the same math.
Jon (28:13):
But there is a lot of very unique, to some extent
intangible aspects of theentertainment industry where the
only way you're really going tolearn that is just by being
there and doing it and puttingin the time.
Renee (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that some people'scomplaints about the ETCP are
that it's bureaucracy, right, soyou get this certification and
then it's not easy to get at all.
Jon (28:39):
Well, I think that ultimately, I think that's good
right.
Renee (28:42):
Yes, yes, and I enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed studying forit.
I'm kind of nerdy like that.
I do really love my job and Ialways have more questions and I
always want to know more, andso it's not an easy test but it
does kind of guide you in thatfurther and beyond.
A lot of riggers that start out,you know, they get on the
(29:05):
ground and they don't know youplug a motor cable into a motor
and then that motor cable goesinto a distro, a motor and then
that motor cable goes into adistro and in order for that
distro to run you have to powerit and in order to run the
motors you've got to have apendant.
There's just so many, so manyvariables and things to learn
(29:29):
about that.
I just did a convention centergig and I was a production
rigger and we had a lot of newriggers from through our union
that were there and they'regreat, they want to learn,
they're hard workers, you know,but they had no idea.
You give them a cable andthey're like what, what is this?
How does this work?
And so the flow of work.
You know if I just stopeverything and I'm like, okay of
(29:55):
work.
You know if I just stopeverything and I'm like, okay,
let me give you a breakdown ofhow this all works really
quickly, then they learn it.
And then you're like, okay,let's go do the next trust.
Now I don't have to stop andtell you.
You know exactly how this allworks.
This is what I want done.
Go do it Right, and then theydo it.
Jon (30:09):
This part of the conversation right now is just
the other.
I was doing a podcast sessionwith Pyro Rick.
Yes, yes.
And we might actually we mighthave wound up talking about you
in part of that, but we'retalking about I see a parallel
with Pyro and rigging to whereit's a really you have to be
really selective in yourstaffing.
Yeah, and just a level of trustin your staffing.
(30:30):
Yeah, and just a level of trust.
There's zero margin for error.
Yeah, For obvious reasons.
Renee (30:37):
Right, absolutely, I would not want to burn or blow
up.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I love Rick.
I've known him for a long time.
Oh, he's one of the best.
Yeah, he's one of the best Allof events.
Jon (30:52):
concerts in particular, kind of infamous for long hours.
But in your role in particular,how do you balance that reality
with safety and quality control, just in terms of keeping
clear-headed and crossing allyour T's and dotting all your?
Renee (31:08):
I's.
So you're like and this is howI kind of started you know, like
I would rig at Clark Countyright, which is in southwestern
Washington close to the Oregonborder.
You know we had a little venuethere.
So I work 8 am, maybe fourhours, and then I've got the
(31:31):
whole day off and then I have tocome back at night or I might
run spotlight, but that's onedecision too.
Maybe you don't run spotlightand then you come for loadout
and you climb up there, take itall down and then you've got.
You have to drive to the GorgeAmphitheater, which is like a
four-hour drive, and you got towork at 8 am and you just got
(31:54):
off work at 2.
And you get in the car and youdrive all the way there.
This is a part of like thehustle right In the beginning
when you're new and you'retrying to get in and you're just
trying to survive and you justtake naps whenever you can.
You just got to make sure youeat, make sure you're getting
(32:14):
those naps in in those big gapstime.
And this is rock and roll.
You have a late loadout, earlymorning loadout and you've got
to go do a load in the next daysomewhere else or even in the
same venue.
Right, you're still limited totime and you know, I just say
(32:38):
like when you're younger itseems all right you make it.
Now that I'm a bit older, I'mglad that I'm not doing as much
of that anymore.
I mean, I still work long hoursand stuff A lot of it's
corporate coffee, making sureyou go to bed For me.
Like I'm not going to suggestanybody else, but one thing that
helps me like I'm sober.
So no alcohol anything likethat.
Jon (33:01):
That doesn't surprise me at all.
Renee (33:02):
For me that helps, because then you wake up
refreshed and everything I don'tknow, in that determined mind,
you just do it.
Jon (33:10):
Responsibility is kind of the key theme that I'm hearing
from you, yeah, and you know alot of it's.
Renee (33:14):
Muscle memory Right mind, you just do it.
Responsibility is kind of thekey theme that I'm hearing from
you.
Yeah, and you know a lot ofit's muscle memory.
You know it's like okay, I'mdoing the same thing and if I do
it in the steps, I'm not goingto miss anything.
Jon (33:25):
I would imagine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Iimagine you and your colleagues
are checking each other's workas you go along as well.
Renee (33:32):
Yeah, yeah, and we are so ridiculously safe though and
I'm not saying that as acomplaint or anything but even
in the chance that somethingwasn't right, it's still
probably going to be okay.
We have safety factors, youknow, and a lot of things that
(33:52):
we use over people's heads.
They have to have like a 10safety factor.
So if, like, a shackle can holdand that's a buffer, so if it
can hold 2,500 pounds and wewhittle it down to like a 10th
of that, Right, You're onlygoing to load it with 200, or
yeah?
Jon (34:12):
yeah, yeah.
Renee (34:12):
I mean because we have shock load, Yep and all of those
things, which is all variable.
Those are all question marks inthe air.
So if something is connected tothat shackle and it jumps in
the air five times, it's alwaysgoing to be a different weight.
You don't know what that is.
Jon (34:29):
Commercial airplanes are the same way.
You're mentioning Boeing andyour father's career at Boeing
early on.
I've had family at Boeing aswell and I know that these days
in particular, like any newcommercial airplane, it will
never in its lifetime seeone-tenth of the stress that it
can actually handle in terms ofaerodynamic stress.
(34:50):
There's no way you couldpossibly stress it more than 10%
of its rating.
Renee (34:55):
Yeah, and I've worked there and hung things in Boeing
both in Everett and down here inGeorgetown.
Jon (35:04):
The Everett plant's cool it's so big.
Renee (35:06):
Yeah, I love it when they roll the planes in.
Yeah, yeah, that's always agreat time.
We get to see the coolest stuffthat nobody else gets to see
Boeing planes and stuff likethat we get to see.
You know, all of that stuffthat it's not like and we call
people who aren't in ourindustry muggles.
(35:27):
They just don't understand right, dating is incredibly hard
because I have a load in andthen I have a load out, so and
they're like what is that?
You know, people are like whatyou know how does that work?
And and then on top of it, Iswear we have some of the most
genius people that we work with.
I mean, they've invented thingsthat are used outside of this
(35:53):
industry, right, but like it'sbeen invented, it's so amazing.
There's like this really greatdocumentary thing about the
Grateful Dead, you know, andthey toured around and I've seen
them a few times before Jerrydied.
I mean part of my music passion.
Right Early off when theystarted, I mean they kind of
pioneered rigging.
They decided they wanted tohang their audio right.
Jon (36:15):
They pioneered more than most people realize.
Renee (36:18):
Right, they're like we want to hang this audio.
Well, let's get this crappyrope and some block and falls
and we're going to climb aroundwithout a harness.
Jon (36:27):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Renee (36:27):
You know, and the weight of these things are just, oh God
, it was like lifting a dinosaur, right.
You know, and that documentaryis wonderful.
And I mean these audioengineers, just everybody, they
just love their job so much andthey're so nerdy, they're
(36:51):
married to their job.
Jon (36:52):
Right, that's what's kept me in the business my entire
adult life.
Really, that's what has pushedme to start this podcast is that
, at the end of the day, I justlove the people.
It's a bunch of goofballs, it'sa bunch of wackos, yep, but
damn it, I love them, I justlove everybody.
I'm trying to share some of thepeople.
I guess that's you included.
(37:13):
Oh, thank you.
Trying to share these beautifulpeople with the Muggles, yeah,
yeah and to share some ofourselves just even with each
other, you know, yeah, becausethere's so many trades where
we're all working under the sameroof together on any given day,
but we don't always have theopportunity to really understand
.
That's one of the opportunitiesthat I've been blessed to have,
(37:34):
like in a producer role.
I get to stand back and watchall the different pieces working
together and orchestrate that.
It just gives me an evenbroader appreciation for the
whole thing, and then everyperson that's involved with it
takes everybody.
Everybody.
Renee (37:53):
There are no marginally important roles in the business,
right, but it's tough.
Even if you're just a boxpusher, you know that box could
be a thousand pounds and youmight be pushing it up the gorge
ramp and it might be 110degrees out and you're in all
black.
Jon (38:12):
And none of that matters.
It's got to get done.
Renee (38:14):
Get your water.
I see it countless times.
That's one thing too.
I kind of like sometimes aboutbeing a rigger, because,
especially when we get a lot ofnew people, I'm like busy doing
my job in a respect, and I don'treally get to know people now
until they're staying around.
(38:34):
Because you know, I don't knowhow many times we've had a bunch
of people come out to whatevergig it could be anywhere and
they're like oh my God, I didn'trealize I was going to have to
down stack boxes out of a backof a semi.
This isn't really what Ipictured, you know.
And then they move on.
They're like you know, I'drather make burgers or whatever
it is, you know, each their own.
Jon (38:56):
Yeah, exactly, I totally get it.
Renee (38:58):
Exactly, but there is a certain tenacity you have to
have in order to make this intosomething that's sustainable
financially and for you.
But you also a lot of peopleget very, very wrapped up in it
and they forget, like when thepandemic hit, oh my God, my
mental wellness was showingitself.
(39:21):
I just did not have good mentalhealth.
The only thing I had was my job.
And then, all of a sudden,nothing Like oh, what am I going
to do?
I can't talk to anybody, Ican't do anything, I'm not going
anywhere.
How is this going to work out?
I wasn't necessarily so muchworried about finances, it was
(39:42):
just the whole like I'mextremely social, but I'd never
had to look at myself in themirror before.
Jon (39:48):
Social, but I'd never had to look at myself in the mirror
before I understand what you'resaying 100%.
In some of my prior episodes Italk about this, but when the
pandemic hit and all of a suddenI'm just sitting around at home
, forbidden from doing what I do, from doing what I've done my
entire adult life, and for me itwas just a flat-out identity
(40:09):
crisis.
After enough time I mean thefirst few months I was like okay
, I'm going to get governmentrelief money to sit around and
great, but over time it wore medown more and more and more
until eventually I got to thepoint where, I guess for the
first time, I thought about howmuch of my identity I've tied up
in my occupation, how much ofmy identity I've tied up in my
(40:34):
community.
Yeah, and so, taking that away,all of a sudden, it's like I
don't.
It was hard for me tounderstand who I even am anymore
, and enough time went by andit's like it wasn't even clear
when you know, we didn't knowwhen it was going to pick back
up or even if, for that matter,yeah, and it really, it really
did a number on me.
Renee (40:52):
Yeah.
Jon (40:52):
Really did a number, so I hear what you're saying.
Renee (40:55):
Yeah, that was crazy, but I mean, in some respects,
though, I came out the other end, thank goodness, right, but
there was a lot of things that Iignored about myself that I
really needed to work on, thingsthat I ignored about myself
that I really needed to work on,and so I have matured a lot
more since then and have beendoing that work.
(41:15):
I mean I just feel really,really lucky.
I'm in a good spot.
Jon (41:21):
I'm happy to hear that A lot of people just got out of
the biz altogether yeah, Acatastrophic amount.
And so I heard you say earliertalking about you're on a gig
and you've got like a wholebunch of I'm using air quotes
right now, new riggers, Greenhands, Green hands yeah, no
that's.
I mean that starts to presentits own kind of a problem.
But I know that all of thetrades have experienced that,
(41:43):
because I dare say 50%, maybenationwide, of everybody in the
biz just got out.
Renee (41:48):
Yeah.
Jon (41:49):
Went and got straight jobs somewhere.
Renee (41:51):
And you know, and I want to say that you know, I was
beating my head into a brickwall trying to break out into
this touring world.
It's really what I want.
I dropped it, you know, and Isaw things, some things that are
more important, you know, andyou let go of things and it kind
of comes to you and I'm stilllike, kind of, I'm on that path,
(42:12):
I'm not letting anyone, I'mrelentless, like I'm not gonna
let anyone tell me what I want,or I just have so many people
that surround me there that havetoured or whatever, and they're
like you're not gonna like itand I'm like well, let me have
the experience and I will tellyou later if you're right or not
.
But just because you told methat, oh, it's bad and I don't
(42:37):
you know this and that orwhatever, you know, you're just
quit trying to discourage me.
You know why don't you try touplift me?
But you know, in the same thing, like you know, learning things
that are important, I livealone now, which is great here,
and I do have a partner and wehave a place in Mexico.
I go there and I decompress, oh, nice, and yeah, and we've got
(43:02):
some land and we're going toWhereabouts, to Mexico, in
Oaxaca, on the coast, oh wow.
Jon (43:07):
Yeah.
Renee (43:08):
I was just there for like all the.
I was there for three monthsand I'll tell you what, like it
seems like almost like thedeeper I get in, the more like
politics sometimes are thrown atme and like right before I left
in November, I was in themiddle of some of the biggest
political.
I don't know, that's funny,it's not even a word.
(43:28):
I like the way it sounded.
Jon (43:28):
I biggest political, or I don't know.
That's funny, it's not even aword.
Renee (43:30):
I like the way it sounded .
I know political, political.
I was in some huge politics.
Like by accident I just showedup to work, I didn't want
nothing to do with it, right.
And now I'm faced with likethis huge drama and I don't want
to go into it.
You know I don't want to likespread that all out there, but
it was several things.
You know I don't want to likespread that all out there, but
(43:53):
it was several things allhitting me at once and it was
like so stressful and and so Iat least I have my own apartment
and I can go to my apartmentand like I can be like, okay,
work's done.
Now what am I going to do?
I got painting, I'm going topaint.
There's this book that I'mreading.
I'm going to go to that to justkind of let go of all of that
(44:13):
and it's extremely stressful.
And then I went down to Mexicoduring the holidays and
everything and stayed with myboyfriend and my cat.
My cat lives there.
It was just something that Ineeded.
But yeah, living alone too forme and just kind of making that
big separation between job andpersonal life is huge.
Jon (44:38):
I do have to call you out just for a moment, because
earlier you were saying you know, I don't know what it is, I'm
just kind of naturally cheerfuland positive.
But you didn't mention thatyou're spending at least three
months a year on the beach inOaxaca, so it's like you'd
better be cheerful.
Renee (44:54):
Right.
It only started in like duringthe pandemic, to be honest.
So it really started in 2020.
Yeah, so it's.
I mean, it's a new, fresh step.
Jon (45:05):
What kind of advice would you offer to young people who
might be thinking about lookingat a career in event rigging?
Renee (45:15):
Hang in there.
Jon (45:17):
That's a pun.
Renee (45:18):
Right, yeah, definitely Hang in there.
Well, I mean only if you knowrope access.
If it's something that youreally want to do, I would say
you kind of have to stay neutralwith people.
Take the knowledge where youcan get it.
I have had so many wonderfulpeople, wonderful men that you
(45:40):
know have mentored me.
I really, really appreciatethem a lot, and part of it is
because I kind of just stay outof politics and I take people
for the way they treat me.
I try not to bring emotion towork.
It was really hard in thebeginning, like I would get so
tired.
You're like, how do you handlebeing tired and working?
(46:02):
And you know I'd work two orthree gigs in a row and I would
be so exhausted Like I probablyonly had, you know, six hours of
sleep in that time period.
I'm so exhausted and you justcry.
You just start crying.
You start taking everythingpersonal.
You're like, oh, that persondoesn't like me and I don't know
(46:23):
why.
And you know, oh, you know, andyou start crying.
Whatever, you're just exhausted.
We're pretty.
You know, to rigors can bepretty to the point.
One thing that's important isterminology.
So I'm getting to like thenewbie part, but you know you
have to be like, hey, push thatpoint to the clevis or you're
(46:45):
like your shackles spun.
I mean, there's a lot ofterminology, you know, you got
to know that and like whensomeone's directing you to get
something done.
It is nothing personal, it isstrictly we don't have time.
It's a serious job.
Just don't bring your feelingsto work and just keep a good,
positive attitude and just dothe best you can and you'll get
(47:07):
pushed forward quite a bit.
Jon (47:09):
You just made me think that in your trade in particular
probably more so than othersthere's a certain amount of
humility that's pretty muchrequisite.
Renee (47:19):
Oh yeah.
Jon (47:20):
Nothing's personal, because you can't fake it Right.
You cannot BS your way throughyour job.
People will die.
Renee (47:28):
Yeah.
Jon (47:28):
With that comes nobody knows everything every day,
right?
So you have to be able to takethat, like you said, just take
blunt direction and notinternalize it.
Renee (47:39):
Yeah, exactly.
And also when it comes tohumility, to admit what you did
wrong, yeah, and learn.
Yes, now, I don't expect.
Sometimes it can be a littlebit of word on the street about
oh, did you hear so-and-sodropped a shackle or whatever.
But I mean overall like it's alearning experience for the
(48:01):
whole community If a shackledropped and everybody's like who
dropped that shackle?
Don't go hide behind somebody.
Jon (48:08):
Yeah, step forward, own it.
Renee (48:09):
Yeah, own it and then you can also share.
Well, what was it that happened, that made that situation
happen?
And they always try to teach.
It's not a matter of if, it's amatter of when, because gravity
always wins.
I've worked with a greathandful of riggers that have
never dropped anything,according to them, and that is
(48:36):
admirable.
And it's because it takes somegreat patience when you're
working, because we want to befast.
The old saying is you know, wewant to come in and get the job
done and be at the bar drinkingwhile we're still getting paid,
because we get paid in minimums,right?
So if we can get the job donein two hours, that gives us time
to go down to the bar, have acouple beers with all our
co-workers and laugh about itand be like, hey, I'm still
(48:59):
getting paid.
You know it comes withefficiency and being slow in the
beginning, so it's like don'tbe afraid to be slow.
Each step that you take isgoing to advance you leaps and
bounds.
Jon (49:12):
What's that saying?
I think it's like an armysaying slow is steady and steady
is fast.
Renee (49:18):
Yeah.
Jon (49:19):
Or something like that, yeah exactly.
Renee (49:21):
We had one of the companies that I've worked for
in the past had like a stagehandOlympics right and one of them
was who can get on their harnessthe fastest?
Jon (49:30):
right, I've wanted to do something like that.
I had that idea a long time ago, so somebody actually does that
.
Renee (49:37):
Well, they don't do it anymore.
It was just one like companypicnic that they had.
Jon (49:41):
Oh, okay, I see what you're saying.
They decided to have that.
I see what you're saying.
Renee (49:50):
So they put me in there and I was with, actually, a
couple of new guys and me thefirst two guys.
They're getting on theirharnesses and they're just
trying to put it on as fast aspossible.
They're trying to get theirfoot in the leg hole but it's
not staying straight.
They're having trouble andthey're getting snagged on stuff
.
They get one leg in and thenthey're trying to put it over
their head and they're like notgetting their arm through the
(50:12):
hole and they're just likestruggling the whole time
because they're trying to besuper fast, right, and then
they're like I felt like peppylepew, oh that's awesome they're
like okay, renee your turn.
so I just like get the harnessand I put it on kind of like a
pair of pants, and then I justlike put it over my head and get
my arms in.
I'm just slow totally slow.
(50:35):
And then I think one of theindicators that you were done in
this competition was that youhad to take your lanyards and
clip them to your side door,your side rings, and and then,
like you know, if you had it on,you're done and I did.
I mean I was so fast.
Like you know, you had it onyou're done and I did.
I mean I was so fast, like,compared to them, but I looked
like I had no effort at all andI won a hundred bucks.
Jon (50:57):
So that's fantastic.
So like, there you go.
I've always wanted to do anindustry Olympics kind of thing
like that.
My special skill like if I wereto imagine myself participating
, I can pick up a quarter off ofthe ground with the forks of a
5k forklift.
Oh, that's cool.
I haven't done that in probably10 or 15 years, but I know I
(51:18):
could do it right now if I had aforklift oh my gosh.
Renee (51:21):
Well, I could tie a cherry stem in a knot with my
tongue there you go.
Jon (51:27):
Same kind of overall importance in the big scheme of
things, right.
Renee (51:31):
That was like a teenage, like sitting at Denny's skill,
that's exactly what I did.
Jon (51:38):
A couple of fun just kind of fun questions for you.
What's the highest elevationoff the ground you've ever
worked?
Renee (51:46):
I've probably been, I think, like 400 feet, 400?
.
Jon (51:50):
Where.
Renee (51:51):
That's like Lumen Field.
Is it that high?
I think the arches are aboutfour.
Are they 400 feet?
I don't know.
They said something about thatbeing 400 feet Because it was
like where we put in the banners, so like there's a bunch of
banners that are around thestadium that have, like Steve
(52:13):
Largent's number and all thatkind of stuff.
They're on these huge frames andeither, like, the championships
change and they want to changethe banner, you know, or they
want to change the position ofit.
You know we'll take the wholeframe down, take the banner down
and put them back up.
And oftentimes we're below,right below the arches, on that
(52:37):
side of the roof, and we'redoing rope access, and so they
said that from there down to thefield was about 200 feet.
Jon (52:46):
Oh yeah, I guess that's about right.
Renee (52:48):
So, yeah, and I mean I still work.
You know I've never been firedfrom my companies, you know.
But sometimes, you know, you gothrough these ebb and flow of
who you're working for.
Maybe you're growing in yourcareer and you're getting a
little more.
You know you're giving more ofthe direction than doing the
labor.
And I did a lot of themaintenance at, like, lumen
(53:10):
Field it's so hard to call itthat I want to call it
CenturyLink.
It was CenturyLink mostly whenI worked there, but we were
doing the lifelines.
There's a set of lifelines upthere.
We were like testing theanchors, and so I've been up
there and it's pretty amazing.
And one day I had to go upthere and it was right after an
(53:30):
earthquake and I was like, oh,should we be going up there?
What if there's a biggerearthquake?
You know, and my boss is likeman, it's like the safest place
to be you know?
Jon (53:39):
Yeah, that's probably true, being relatively new
construction, yeah Well, it's abig sidewalk.
Renee (53:47):
But Do you have a favorite gig that you ever
worked on of all time?
One time I worked Soundgardenat the Gorge and I got to run
Spotlight on Chris Cornell.
That was really fun.
I really do enjoy doing thebanner changes at Lumen Field
(54:13):
because I love.
I mean I feel out of all theparts of rigging, I feel like
being on rope.
I feel most comfortable but itcan be some of the hardest work.
You're on rope, you get torepel, you get to jug up you
know that's all great.
But then you got to drill intothe side of a building with a
big giant drill and throughcement and you're pushing
yourself away from the building.
So that's another whole notherchallenge.
(54:33):
But I do like doing those.
Those are fun and the reveals.
You know, when they reveal iton television sometimes we'll be
there to like do that.
They don't see us, we're notthere.
But I really like Jane'sAddiction.
One time I was working them andI was ready for the loadout and
I was upstage and they weresinging Jane Says and this is at
(54:54):
the Gorge too and I could justsee like the whole crowd going
wild, singing along and I'm likeit's just from my younger self.
You know that music came outand it really touches me.
You know came out and it reallytouches me.
You know it's really hard tosay like my favorite.
I mean a lot of times it's theexperience afterwards seeing the
(55:18):
band or getting to be in thatexperience there.
But like the favorite, likework, I mean yeah, I think
rappelling and doing the bannerswould be some of my favorite.
Oh, you know what?
The weekend Say more man.
I just I had more.
Like it was great to be in thatsense of community, with all my
(55:38):
co-workers, you know, travelingfrom place to place, and then we
were treated really well.
We had really nice hotels.
You know we're at the stadiums,the rig, you know I got to
climb every day and see the viewand the different stadiums and
the challenge of even justgetting to a shower after you're
(56:01):
done.
Where's the women's shower?
I finally nailed it.
I was like all right, the girlsshowers are here.
I, you know, before here,before that loadout, on the
loadout day in the morning whenI arrive, I find that first.
So then after I know, right,where to go, right, I love my
artist.
The weekend I fell in love withthe music and my heart was in
(56:25):
it, my heart's in the work andmy coworkers.
The last song that we closedwith was Blinding Lights.
We'd be all backstage likedancing and singing along and
stuff like yeah, this is aloadout song, we're going to go,
we're getting on the bus afterthis and just it was amazing and
then seeing the crowd and howmuch they really enjoyed it.
Jon (56:48):
And then seeing the crowd and how much they really enjoyed
it.
Have you gotten to the point?
Renee (56:56):
yet where you've taken a newbie under your wing, so to
speak, in terms of a mentor role.
Yes, I mean, I have severaltimes, but it's not anything
that I note to myself.
So it's funny after years.
It's really because, you know,you don't look at yourself that
way in always and you know, Ilike I was um, a second on um,
(57:18):
and what that means is likethere'll be a head rigger and
then he'll have his second and Iwas a second on beyond
wonderland, out at the gorge andat the end of the show, like
we're the riggers, we're gettingthe rigging done for lighting
and audio and video and all ofthat stuff.
And then we get done, you know,and we're all like the whole
(57:39):
production, we're all like, yay,we got it done, we made it
through.
And we kind of have a littleparty afterwards and one of the
guys comes up to me and he'slike Renee, don't you remember
when you taught me this, thisand this?
And I'm like no, like I, youknow, makes me stop and think,
oh, people are looking at me,wow.
You know, Okay, and I actuallyhave gotten that a few times and
(58:05):
I and it makes me feel goodabout myself I'm glad that I can
help and people are learningand becoming better at what they
do.
Yeah.
Jon (58:17):
Indeed.
So you're walking into an icecream shop and you're going to
get a cone with two scoops.
What are the flavors?
Renee (58:27):
Oh, caramel and chocolate .
Or how about chocolate andcoconut, with maybe some caramel
drizzle?
Jon (58:35):
Which one goes on top.
Renee (58:38):
The coconut.
Jon (58:41):
That's one of my favorite questions.
I ask everybody.
Never gotten the same answertwice.
Oh awesome, Renee.
It's been a delightfulconversation.
Thanks for making the timetoday.
Renee (58:52):
Oh yeah, Thank you for having me All call One hour till
doors.
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