January 28, 2025 • 26 mins
Influencer snark site, Tattle Life shocked its users by announcing it was closing down due to ‘recent threats.’ However, within 24 hours it was back with its anonymous owners vowing to fight to keep the site live.
And Tammy Hembrow and Matt Zukowski have reportedly had a very public spat whilst attending an influencer event at the Australian Open.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Outspoken. It's your dose of the
hottest influencer and pop culture news twice a week. I'm
Sophie Torver and coming up on today's show, Trouble is
brewing for Tattle Life as the Snark site comes under threat.
But first, Tammy Hembro and Matt Szakowski have reportedly had
a very public spat whilst attending an influencer event at
(00:26):
the Australian Open.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So, Tammy and Matt were gifted VIP tickets by Chemist's
Warehouse and they saw alongside reality stars Callum Hole and
Cahn Ong. So, according to a source, Tammy and Matt's
argument was tense and apparently Tammy was overhear telling Matt
to get his stuff out of her house. That's pretty
next level. Something major must have gone down to say
that in public. Maybe they felt comfortable because they were
(00:50):
surrounded by other high profile people that they thought that
the argument wouldn't get out there. Well it has got now,
and it's gotten out to the Daily Mail of all places.
And they went as far to quote a source within
the VIP event who apparently said one thing is for sure.
The Australian Open won't be having them back next year. Well,
last week we were talking about how Tammy Henbury wasn't
(01:10):
even interested in the tennis. She said that she didn't
really want to watch it and it sounded like it
was quite boring for it. So maybe she was just
bored during the game and picked an argument. I mean,
sometimes when I have to watch the football with my husband,
I'm like, fuck, what can I do to get this
off the screen or have an argument? Well, apparently this
fight was so bad that Tammy ended up flying home
to the Gold Coast without Matt and he extended his
(01:33):
trip in Melbourne partying with friends. Well that makes sense
because I was listening to his podcast the other day
and he was talking about, Oh, I'm going to this
Australian Open event and this one, and each time he
was saying he was bringing his sisters. So maybe Tammy
was meant to go. Those brands must have been so disappointed. Well,
these were nine hundred dollars tickets from Chemists warehouse and
all that they got from it was Tammy saying how
(01:54):
she doesn't like tennis. And also this huge archer was
Someone posted an interesting threat in our Facebook community about
how they've ACKed she'd been put off by the brands
that invited influencers who were rude and disrespectful to the
Australian Open. And it's a really fair point because it
doesn't look good on the brand if you are picking
these influencers who aren't even interested in being there and
act up. It sounds like this argument would have been
(02:15):
very awkward for everyone involved. Because Tammy Hembro shared a
photo of where she and Matt were sitting with Chemist Warehouse.
They literally looked like they were sitting on the court.
I wonder if things got so heated, maybe the tennis
players were.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Like, shun the fuck up, they're trying to play.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
There was glass between them and the tennis players.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Hopefully it was soundproof.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well, I mean, since this report, we have seen Matt
and Tammy posting on social media as normal, so it
seems like it was just aspat.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I don't think this is marriage ending.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Do we think that the argument, I know there's a
bit of a speculation here, but was centered around the
fact that Matt probably wanted to go out and party
and be seen at all of these different tennis events,
and maybe Tammy just wanted to have a quiet.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Night with her husband.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I think it more comes down to the fact that
the honeymoon period is over in this relationship. Well, have
they ever had a honeymoon period? Because it's been so
hot and cold, following each other, unfollowing each other. There's
been so many rumors of arguments and spats. I kind
of get the vibe they're the sort of couple that
love having an argument because they just want to make
up after it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think I reckon, Yeah, because it's exciting.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
And with Matt, I mean, we've already heard him speak
on his podcast about how his Christmas and New Years
was a little bit I don't want to say mundane,
but you know, just a lot of family time. Maybe
these arguments injective bit of excitement into their relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Sounds so toxic.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Well, he did speak in a recent podcast about some
of his aims for twenty twenty five when one of
those was getting into reading.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Let's have a listen to what Matt said.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I've actually taken up reading you. Yeah, So I don't
know if I listened this on the Goals for twenty
twenty five, but I want to read. So he went
into a bookshop the other day. Yeah, the kids got
some books, and then I was standing around like their section,
looking at books with them, and I saw Goosebumps.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
And I was like, old, classic, old fave.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, I used to read him when I was a kid,
And I just picked one up and I looked at
her and I was like, they'd already taken off. Actually
I was still reading the blurb and looking at it,
and they'd already paid and walked out, and I was like,
oh fuck, I'll get this. So I ran up to
the thing, got it. And then I caught up with
them and they're like, oh what we where were you?
And I was like, I've got a book I'm going
to read. So I've been reading.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
That, so it's a kid's book essentially.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
I mean, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I couldn't believe when he said Goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And I don't mean to shame him, because it's great
that he's getting back into reading. And he did make
a comment about how Willie now as well pick up
where he left off because that was the last time
he read when he was a teenager. In his defense,
I wonder if it is a way for him to
connect with his steps on Wolf, because that's the sort
of reading level that Goosebumps is at I mean in
saying that I loved reading Goosebumps back in the day,
(04:47):
that was some scary shit. All the best bit is
his mum was so excited that he was getting back
into reading that she went down to a thrift shop
and bought him like eight Goosebump books.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Continued on page five.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I mean, I shall just rise above it that this
thing affects me and.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Close.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Forty seven influencer snark site tatle Life shocked its users
by announcing it was closing down due to recent threats.
The anonymous gossip forum, which has been touted as the
most toxic corner of the Internet, has become one of
the most visited websites in Australia and the UK, averaging
(05:37):
eighty four million visits a year. Its owner is set
to be hit hard by the website's demise, losing an
estimated one million dollars in annual ads revenue. Now, Sophie,
this story has had a few twists and turns. How
did things kick off last week? Well, last Wednesday, tato
Life sentence uses into a spin when they realized they
(05:57):
could no longer access the website. So the website was
down for several hours and when it returned, it was
operating under a new name. So the new name was
eight Cafe, and many of Tattle's long standing members were
panicking because they had been automatically logged out of their
accounts and they were struggling to access the forum because
they either couldn't remember their password or their email addresses
(06:21):
that they signed up with. And this is because in
the past, members were told not to link their personal
email addresses with their Tattle accounts, and that is so
that they could keep their identities concealed. And for four years,
the website hasn't been accepting new members. The only way
you can join is if some long standing member gives
you a code. I often see a lot of people
shopping around for the code because it's almost like you're
(06:43):
joining this exclusive membership. And in my opinion, this process
has been put in place to stop influencers from having
any sort of rite or apply or ruining the forum's fun,
and I think it's also made a lot of the
long term Tattle members feel very powerful now. When it
came to the rebrand, there wasn't much positive feedback, so
(07:03):
the owner tried to spin it and said that they
renamed it eight Cafe to be more of a generic
name because they thought that Tattle was too synonymous with
gossiping and it wasn't meant to be about gossiping. And
the general consensus was that the new name actually sounds
a lot like the Hate Cafe, which really contradicts the
message that the owner was putting out in the first place.
(07:25):
I don't think anyone has been buying this narrative that
the owner has been putting out there. And when she
was addressing the rebrand and the reason for registration remaining closed,
she said, we didn't really have much choice, as we've
never allowed any content that gets into the gray areas
of harassment and abuse. She continued, where reorganizing things and
will shortly be allowing new members to post on the
(07:46):
non problematic threads. I'd like to know what threads they are.
This is just textbook gas lighting. This website has earned
itself the title of the most toxic corner of the Internet,
and then to claim that Tattle doesn't allow users to
go into the gray areas of harassment abuse, it's just laughable. Literally,
nothing on this forum is off limits. I have never
seen any moderators step in to address any of these
(08:10):
posts that are crossing a line. Well, they also claim
that you can report posts, and I have done that
in the past. I've reported something, I've sent them an email,
I've demanded people take something down.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Never a response.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Harassment is literally encouraged on this website. There's a lot
of delight taken in scrutinizing women's appearances and their parenting
and relationships and mental health. And what makes Taddle particularly
dangerous is that its users are completely anonymous, well just
like the owner, so she goes under the name Helen,
it's clearly not her own name. And if you're so
confident in what you're doing, why do you have to
(08:43):
be anonymous? Shouldn't you be screaming from the rooftops that
this is your website. It's pretty obvious why she's anonymous,
because there would be so many influencers out there who
would want to serve this woman with cease and assist
or defamation legal letters, but they are unable to because
of this anonymity of the website. It's quite clear that
this rebrand didn't just come about because the name Tattle
(09:04):
was no longer reflective of the content on the website.
Like the owner claimed, this has come about due to
legal threats. And interestingly, when Tattle returned under the new name,
a disclaimer had been added on the bottom of each
page and it read all posts are user's opinions and
does not necessarily reflect the opinion of eight cafe. Now.
(09:24):
This clearly was an attempt to avoid being sued for defamation,
and it's very clear that more was happening behind the
scenes because a day later a farewell message from the
owner appeared. It read farewell. We believe it's important for
the public to have an opinion on social media influences,
as they occupy a unique and largely unregulated space between
(09:44):
celebrities and everyday individuals wilding significant power. In January twenty
twenty three, we closed registrations after too many users violated
our rules and thought they could ignore them and create
a new account. As we said back in twenty nineteen,
our hope had always been that this site would become
unnecessary as governments introduced proper regulations. Unfortunately, recent threats directed
(10:08):
at members of one of our families have left us
with no choice but to shut down the site. It
is simply unfair for them to be impacted by something
they have zero involvement in. It's quite ironic that the
owner of this site, which literally encourages hate on a
daily basis, is trying to take the moral high ground
with this. Now they're outraged that they're receiving threats.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
There have been influencers that have.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Been discussed on this forum that have received multiple threats
and continual harassment. Yeah, and also to act like you're
some sort of crusader who's merely been holding influences to
account and fighting for better regulation is just laughable. It
has always been an unregulated snark site and it has
been designed to bully and harass people. I think originally
(10:54):
it might have been set up with the best intention
to actually hold people to account, but the lack of
moderation has really injured the credibility of this website. Lack
of moderation. There's zero moderation, and I mean, as I said,
I have tried to get defamatory information taken off that
site down before, and there is no one monitoring it. Well,
I mean, I just don't understand how it has lasted
(11:16):
for the last seven years. And I would love for
Helen or whoever she is to be publicly named and changed. Well,
reading between the lines, it sounds like a lawyer or
some kind of representative of one of the influencers has
tracked down Helen or Whoever's family members and they've made
legal threats to these people. The timing is pretty interesting
(11:36):
because only a few weeks ago we were talking about
how Zoe Haig was crying on her YouTube video about
the commentary that she gets on sites like Tattle, and
she said that she would pay all the money she
had for a lot of the people who write on
Tattle to be unmasked.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Well, a lot of the.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Members in Tattle started freaking out because they thought that
maybe the reason it was closing down was due to
a data breach and that they're in maybe was going
to be released to the media or just on a
public speae I saw with Ashley Madison the Daily website.
So it would actually be such a coup for the
influences and people discussed on this from the unfortunate thing
is there are a lot of people that do lurk
(12:14):
on the site that aren't necessarily active on it. Well,
this actually happened back in twenty twenty one, so there
was an anonymous Instagram account called the Detectives, and they
began revealing suspected Tattle users' identities. So it was this
collection of volunteers who created the page, and they said
it was the first time anyone had stood up to
the Tattle trolls and people were able to submit details
(12:37):
of suspected bullies for analysis. Wow. It was pretty crazy though,
because Helen kept having to reassure Tattle Life that people
on Instagram can't use an app to find your home addresses,
and all of a sudden, the Detective's page just disappeared
one day and Calen claimed it was down to her,
so she wrote on tattle Life this morning we sent
an email that was written under careful advice, and shortly
(12:59):
after the aunt disappeared. So she does seem to wield
a lot of power. I think a lot of people
would be shocked if some of the members of Tattle
were unveiled, because a lot of them would be nurses, teachers, doctors.
Well that was a bit like that hate page Salty's Day.
So probably back in twenty twenty there was a snark
Instagram set up purely targeting Sarah's Day, and somehow the
(13:21):
woman's identity got unveiled and she was a teacher and
her boyfriend didn't even know about this account and found out,
which shows you how much a lot of these people
have to lose because these are professional people. But it's
quite interesting because a lot of tattle users don't mind
going after influencers, workplaces, or sponsorships, like that's something that
they do. They take it to the next level and
(13:43):
go outside of the forum and start attacking people's real lives.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Well, this announcement rocked many Tuttle Life users and they
were told the site would remain open for users to
say they're goodbyes, and this seemed really important for many
of the Tattlers, who over the years have built very
strong online friendships by bonding over their mutual hate for
a lot of influencers. One long standing user vout to
make a tattle Life two point zero and urged users
(14:10):
to join them there. There was a very mixed response
in our Facebook community. Majority of the people were like me,
and they were overjoyed and very relieved that this site
was finally going to be removed. One listener wrote, to
be honest, I think this is for the best. There
was little to no moderation on there, and some of
it was truly unhinged. It wasn't uncommon for them to
(14:30):
take aim at the appearance and behavior of influencers, children
and families who weren't online, and basically docks influences by
providing hints to real estate listings, whilst another listener said
words hold so much power. People hiding behind user names
writing hideous things about strangers is seriously unhinged. No one
deserves to be bullied. Look at the rate of suicide
(14:52):
and the impact of mental health and bullying. I'm stoked
it's gone. It was really interesting for some influencers in
our Facebook community to also weigh in, so Britney Saunders
shared her reaction to the closure, saying this may be
a completely unpopular opinion, but honestly, thank fuck. I've been
publicly on social media for over ten years and it
is astonishing the amount of anonymous bullying that I have
(15:13):
witnessed and how widely accepted it is even in twenty
twenty five. She continued, end anonymous bulling. If people want
to talk shit about influencers creators, whoever, do it amongst
your friends, or even better yet, post a video of
you talking about it to your public social media accounts.
Food influencer Leaestinis also shared her personal experience with Taddle,
(15:33):
explaining she received her own thread just before she gave
birth to her daughter. She wrote the vile commentary when
I was having a hard time, literally gave me postnatal depression,
and the words that those people wrote stuck with me
for almost two years. It hurt so bad that it
got to the point where I thought my child was
better off without me because I couldn't keep her from
vomiting on my clothes or I didn't look well kept
(15:56):
The last I read on there was someone calling at
the time my three month old not that cute. I
felt sick to my stomach. It wasn't just hatred of me,
it was talking about my daughter's appearance as a baby.
It killed me inside and I have worked for over
a year now in therapy because of it. I actually
had she was going down my spine as you were
reading that our amy. That was my rerection when I
first read Lea's comment, because we actually spoke to Leah
(16:19):
at the end of last year on our Christmas series
and tatle life got brought up and at the time
she spoke about it, she didn't sound ultra affected by it,
because I think she's been doing a lot of work
in therapy, But just hearing her go into what she
went through, particularly when she only just had her baby,
it makes me so sad, and I think it is
a really good example of why that place needs to
(16:41):
be shut down and why it is so dangerous.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The thing that.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Irritates me is so many members of TAT will say, oh, well,
the influencers shouldn't read the pages about them, We're just
holding them accountable. It's like, how is commenting on a
baby's appearance keeping an influence about it?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Was disgusting. I'd also like.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
To say to some of them, Okay, so if there
was a whole four that was public, and as you mentioned,
it gets millions of hits a year, would you not
be tempted to go on there and see what people
were saying about you?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
In our Facebook community, we did have people on the
other side of things who were quite upset that the
forum was being taken down, and that was a reason
that someone gave. They said, isn't it better the snark
is on a different page, not in the influencers comments
or dms, and they said the influencer doesn't have to
go and look at what's being said about them, But
I would challenge anyone to not go and look up
(17:31):
what is being said about them on a massive forum.
But also, just because you have a thread on title
Life dedicated to you doesn't mean you don't get trolled
in your dms and comments either. And I actually think
it's worse to have a dedicated spot because, as we
have touched on, when the Tatlers heard that the website
was shutting down, they were fully grieving, like they are
(17:51):
losing friendships they have bonded over their hate for influencers,
and it gets to a point where they're egging each
other on who can make a funnier joke and put
someone down.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
There was also a listener who said that she was
disappointed that the site was going because she said, personally,
I valued reading Tattle. It shed light on issues that
might otherwives have gone unnoticed. For instance, they exposed the
TikTok family poisoning their baby long before it was in
the public arena. They also held certain influences accountable for
repeated racist comments, and I do think that They've got
(18:23):
a point in that it has shone a light on
some important issues that may have gone unnoticed, But in
saying that, the nasty, heinous, hideous comments outshadow.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
All of that.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, and tattle Life isn't the only place where people
comment on influencers. There are a lot of subreddit threads
where people hold influences to account. I mean again, they
also involve a lot of bullying, but I think they're
much better regulated and moderated. Again, I'm not across every
single Reddit sub thread, but I think that a lot
of people are like, oh, I have to go on
(18:57):
Reddit and they moderate everything now. Unfortunately, the farewell was
short lived. Twenty four hours later, the owner of tattle
Life changed her mind. She shared a post saying, after
further discussions yet late into the night for some and
all afternoon for others, we have decided to deal with
the threats with legal action. As you will appreciate, we
won't be discussing the situation as it concerns family members
(19:19):
with no connection to tattle. All matters are with our
legal team, it continued. Once again, we apologize for the
stress of the last couple of days and hope to
see you all back on your favorite threads. Please post
on topic on the threads and ignore the whole situation
while it's being dealt with as to not jeopardize it.
The owner clearly didn't like that users were trying to
start up their own forums, as she warned, promoting groups
(19:41):
elsewhere will get a ban or posting to announce your
leaving will as it also helps no one. If we
ever do close the site for good, it will be
left live to let.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
People say their goodbyers.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It really rubbed me up the wrong way how she
said we won't be discussing the situation as it concerns
family members with no connection to tattle. Now, that has
never stopped you from allowing hate towards family members of
influencers or public figures who have nothing to do with
being in the.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Public eye being discussed.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I just hate how she's on her high horse about
it all, and I really don't understand how you can
actually seek legal action when you're an anonymous owner and
you don't want your identity exposed. Because the founder of
taddle Life goes by the pseudonym Helen McDougall. Now, disturbingly,
when you look into it, Helen McDougall is the name
of a Scottish mistress from the eighteen hundreds whose partner
(20:31):
was charged with grave Robbins and Helen also ended up
being charged with the crimes. Now, over the years, there
has been a lot of speculation around who Helen actually is,
and one widely held belief that I have to say
is unfounded is that Helen is the best friend of
one of the most discussed influencers on the site. Some
other top guesses as to who she is is that
(20:52):
she either has her own beauty business, works for the
Prime Minister, has friends in influential places, lives in France,
has a toy boy husband or a tech with husble,
or is just an absolute miserable individual that is living
in the basement of a parent's ha been go. But
I think that Helen's identity is not far away from
being exposed. Clearly someone has got her in real name. Well.
(21:15):
She has only ever given one interview during the forum's
seven year reign, and that was to lime Goss, which
is a gossip site affiliated with Tattle Life, and Helen
described Tattle as a space for reasonable critique of public figures.
She said it isn't trolling as it gives people some
way to comment about people that choose to become a
public figure and broadcast their private life to make money.
(21:38):
She also explained that she launched Tattle because she said
so many people were just brazenly breaking the guidelines for adverts. Now,
the reason that Helen is not backing down and is
choosing to fight against these threats is because she stands
to lose a significant salary if Tattle is forced to
shut up shops. So, this site has been running since
(21:59):
twenty eight and in that time it has become one
of the most visited sites in Australia and the UK,
and starts show that they rack up forty two point
three million visits in the space of just six months.
And they use Google ad Sends to place ads on
the site. Oh the ads are so bad as well,
Like they're not small ads. They literally like if you're
scrolling on the site, it takes up the whole window.
(22:22):
That's why I don't understand how no one's been able
to serve them with legal letters, because clearly their Google
ad Sense account would have to be attached linked to someone.
But it's probably just like, well, Google's not going to
provide that information. I'm more thinking of the address they
give to get the ad sense mail sent to you,
because normally Google will send you an actual letter to say, oh,
this is how much you made. Well, it'll shock you
(22:42):
even more because in twenty twenty one it was estimated
that those terrible ads actually generate Tattle more than half
a million Australian dollars in ADS revenue over a six
month period. So Helen is making approximately one million Australian
dollars a year from the forum. Well, probably more because
of three years ago, So surely it's only gone up.
(23:02):
I love in the interview how she said it's a
place to discuss people who have put themselves in the
public eye to make money. It's like, well, you're making
money off this website, so why can't we hold you
accountable for the views that you have on your website
that you make money off.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Well.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I also find it ironic that she supposedly set up
this website to call out influencers who weren't disclosing their
ads and the work that they do. Yet she is
not transparent with the Tattlers about her finances. A she
clearly has her own financial interest at stake here, and
she is making a significant amount of money for dragging
people's names through you that they don't have the money
(23:38):
to pay proper moderators. Apparently, that's the thing that I
find most shocking. If you're making over a million dollars
a year off a website, do you not have the
responsibility to hire staff to ensure that posts don't cross
the line legally and ethically. I have never seen one
post be moderated or shut down. The size of that
audience also makes me feel very uncomfortable for Helen because
(24:01):
if her identity is exposed and people are able to
sue her for defamation, a lot of the time the
figure that they come up for reputational damage is based
on how many people viewed it. So if you're getting
forty three million viewers to your website a year, that's
a hell of a lot of a paper. It also
makes sense as to why she's been able to shut
(24:24):
down attempts because in twenty twenty one, an influencer called
em Sheldon gave evidence before a parliamentary committee calling for
the site to be taken down, and this seemed to
ruffle feathers at tatle life in twenty twenty, there was
also a petition to close Tuttle, which was signed by
sixty three thousand people, and there have been a lot
of questions over whether users' identities were safe as well.
(24:46):
So she's had a few headaches, but she's always been
able to use the money that she's made off the
website to defend herself legally. Well, you can see that
she's rattled because the quick name changed is something bizarre
like eight CAAF. I mean that highlighted how panicked she
actually was, the backflip and saying we're closing down now
we're not. I think Tattle's days are numbered well in
(25:09):
terms of this name change, do we think that she
was trying to quickly delete the old website? In terms
of she's been sued for defamation? Fuck, I better get
rid of it all. Let me try and get everyone
across to this new website while I delete all of
the files from the old one. Potentially screenshots exist though well.
In Australia, there are new rules that state that people
(25:30):
who have forums or Facebook communities they are responsible for
what people post on there. So if someone writes something defamatory,
as the owner, you have the responsibility to either moderate
the comment or you could get sued because you are
responsible for that comment being up there. It's the same
for this site. There is clearly a lot going on
behind the scenes that we're not privy too. One thing
that I really hope to see out of this is
(25:51):
Tattle Life's owner's identity revealed, because I think that that
will open up a whole new kettle of fish for her. Legally,
I think if this ship is going down, a lot
of people are going down with it, and there are
going to be members who are exposed potentially via what
could have been a data breach, and this is going
to have huge ramifications. Well, that is all we've got
(26:12):
time for today. Thank you for listening to another episode
of Outspoken. If you do like this show, please leave
us a review. This podcast was recorded on the traditional
land of the Ghana people of the Adelaide Planes.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
We pay respect to elders past and present.
Hello and welcome to Outspoken. It's your dose of the
hottest influencer and pop culture news twice a week. I'm
Sophie Torver and coming up on today's show, Trouble is
brewing for Tattle Life as the Snark site comes under threat.
But first, Tammy Hembro and Matt Szakowski have reportedly had
a very public spat whilst attending an influencer event at
(00:26):
the Australian Open.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So, Tammy and Matt were gifted VIP tickets by Chemist's
Warehouse and they saw alongside reality stars Callum Hole and
Cahn Ong. So, according to a source, Tammy and Matt's
argument was tense and apparently Tammy was overhear telling Matt
to get his stuff out of her house. That's pretty
next level. Something major must have gone down to say
that in public. Maybe they felt comfortable because they were
(00:50):
surrounded by other high profile people that they thought that
the argument wouldn't get out there. Well it has got now,
and it's gotten out to the Daily Mail of all places.
And they went as far to quote a source within
the VIP event who apparently said one thing is for sure.
The Australian Open won't be having them back next year. Well,
last week we were talking about how Tammy Henbury wasn't
(01:10):
even interested in the tennis. She said that she didn't
really want to watch it and it sounded like it
was quite boring for it. So maybe she was just
bored during the game and picked an argument. I mean,
sometimes when I have to watch the football with my husband,
I'm like, fuck, what can I do to get this
off the screen or have an argument? Well, apparently this
fight was so bad that Tammy ended up flying home
to the Gold Coast without Matt and he extended his
(01:33):
trip in Melbourne partying with friends. Well that makes sense
because I was listening to his podcast the other day
and he was talking about, Oh, I'm going to this
Australian Open event and this one, and each time he
was saying he was bringing his sisters. So maybe Tammy
was meant to go. Those brands must have been so disappointed. Well,
these were nine hundred dollars tickets from Chemists warehouse and
all that they got from it was Tammy saying how
(01:54):
she doesn't like tennis. And also this huge archer was
Someone posted an interesting threat in our Facebook community about
how they've ACKed she'd been put off by the brands
that invited influencers who were rude and disrespectful to the
Australian Open. And it's a really fair point because it
doesn't look good on the brand if you are picking
these influencers who aren't even interested in being there and
act up. It sounds like this argument would have been
(02:15):
very awkward for everyone involved. Because Tammy Hembro shared a
photo of where she and Matt were sitting with Chemist Warehouse.
They literally looked like they were sitting on the court.
I wonder if things got so heated, maybe the tennis
players were.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Like, shun the fuck up, they're trying to play.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
There was glass between them and the tennis players.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Hopefully it was soundproof.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well, I mean, since this report, we have seen Matt
and Tammy posting on social media as normal, so it
seems like it was just aspat.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I don't think this is marriage ending.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Do we think that the argument, I know there's a
bit of a speculation here, but was centered around the
fact that Matt probably wanted to go out and party
and be seen at all of these different tennis events,
and maybe Tammy just wanted to have a quiet.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Night with her husband.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I think it more comes down to the fact that
the honeymoon period is over in this relationship. Well, have
they ever had a honeymoon period? Because it's been so
hot and cold, following each other, unfollowing each other. There's
been so many rumors of arguments and spats. I kind
of get the vibe they're the sort of couple that
love having an argument because they just want to make
up after it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think I reckon, Yeah, because it's exciting.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
And with Matt, I mean, we've already heard him speak
on his podcast about how his Christmas and New Years
was a little bit I don't want to say mundane,
but you know, just a lot of family time. Maybe
these arguments injective bit of excitement into their relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Sounds so toxic.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Well, he did speak in a recent podcast about some
of his aims for twenty twenty five when one of
those was getting into reading.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Let's have a listen to what Matt said.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I've actually taken up reading you. Yeah, So I don't
know if I listened this on the Goals for twenty
twenty five, but I want to read. So he went
into a bookshop the other day. Yeah, the kids got
some books, and then I was standing around like their section,
looking at books with them, and I saw Goosebumps.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
And I was like, old, classic, old fave.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, I used to read him when I was a kid,
And I just picked one up and I looked at
her and I was like, they'd already taken off. Actually
I was still reading the blurb and looking at it,
and they'd already paid and walked out, and I was like,
oh fuck, I'll get this. So I ran up to
the thing, got it. And then I caught up with
them and they're like, oh what we where were you?
And I was like, I've got a book I'm going
to read. So I've been reading.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
That, so it's a kid's book essentially.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
I mean, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I couldn't believe when he said Goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And I don't mean to shame him, because it's great
that he's getting back into reading. And he did make
a comment about how Willie now as well pick up
where he left off because that was the last time
he read when he was a teenager. In his defense,
I wonder if it is a way for him to
connect with his steps on Wolf, because that's the sort
of reading level that Goosebumps is at I mean in
saying that I loved reading Goosebumps back in the day,
(04:47):
that was some scary shit. All the best bit is
his mum was so excited that he was getting back
into reading that she went down to a thrift shop
and bought him like eight Goosebump books.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Continued on page five.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I mean, I shall just rise above it that this
thing affects me and.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Close.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Forty seven influencer snark site tatle Life shocked its users
by announcing it was closing down due to recent threats.
The anonymous gossip forum, which has been touted as the
most toxic corner of the Internet, has become one of
the most visited websites in Australia and the UK, averaging
(05:37):
eighty four million visits a year. Its owner is set
to be hit hard by the website's demise, losing an
estimated one million dollars in annual ads revenue. Now, Sophie,
this story has had a few twists and turns. How
did things kick off last week? Well, last Wednesday, tato
Life sentence uses into a spin when they realized they
(05:57):
could no longer access the website. So the website was
down for several hours and when it returned, it was
operating under a new name. So the new name was
eight Cafe, and many of Tattle's long standing members were
panicking because they had been automatically logged out of their
accounts and they were struggling to access the forum because
they either couldn't remember their password or their email addresses
(06:21):
that they signed up with. And this is because in
the past, members were told not to link their personal
email addresses with their Tattle accounts, and that is so
that they could keep their identities concealed. And for four years,
the website hasn't been accepting new members. The only way
you can join is if some long standing member gives
you a code. I often see a lot of people
shopping around for the code because it's almost like you're
(06:43):
joining this exclusive membership. And in my opinion, this process
has been put in place to stop influencers from having
any sort of rite or apply or ruining the forum's fun,
and I think it's also made a lot of the
long term Tattle members feel very powerful now. When it
came to the rebrand, there wasn't much positive feedback, so
(07:03):
the owner tried to spin it and said that they
renamed it eight Cafe to be more of a generic
name because they thought that Tattle was too synonymous with
gossiping and it wasn't meant to be about gossiping. And
the general consensus was that the new name actually sounds
a lot like the Hate Cafe, which really contradicts the
message that the owner was putting out in the first place.
(07:25):
I don't think anyone has been buying this narrative that
the owner has been putting out there. And when she
was addressing the rebrand and the reason for registration remaining closed,
she said, we didn't really have much choice, as we've
never allowed any content that gets into the gray areas
of harassment and abuse. She continued, where reorganizing things and
will shortly be allowing new members to post on the
(07:46):
non problematic threads. I'd like to know what threads they are.
This is just textbook gas lighting. This website has earned
itself the title of the most toxic corner of the Internet,
and then to claim that Tattle doesn't allow users to
go into the gray areas of harassment abuse, it's just laughable. Literally,
nothing on this forum is off limits. I have never
seen any moderators step in to address any of these
(08:10):
posts that are crossing a line. Well, they also claim
that you can report posts, and I have done that
in the past. I've reported something, I've sent them an email,
I've demanded people take something down.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Never a response.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Harassment is literally encouraged on this website. There's a lot
of delight taken in scrutinizing women's appearances and their parenting
and relationships and mental health. And what makes Taddle particularly
dangerous is that its users are completely anonymous, well just
like the owner, so she goes under the name Helen,
it's clearly not her own name. And if you're so
confident in what you're doing, why do you have to
(08:43):
be anonymous? Shouldn't you be screaming from the rooftops that
this is your website. It's pretty obvious why she's anonymous,
because there would be so many influencers out there who
would want to serve this woman with cease and assist
or defamation legal letters, but they are unable to because
of this anonymity of the website. It's quite clear that
this rebrand didn't just come about because the name Tattle
(09:04):
was no longer reflective of the content on the website.
Like the owner claimed, this has come about due to
legal threats. And interestingly, when Tattle returned under the new name,
a disclaimer had been added on the bottom of each
page and it read all posts are user's opinions and
does not necessarily reflect the opinion of eight cafe. Now.
(09:24):
This clearly was an attempt to avoid being sued for defamation,
and it's very clear that more was happening behind the
scenes because a day later a farewell message from the
owner appeared. It read farewell. We believe it's important for
the public to have an opinion on social media influences,
as they occupy a unique and largely unregulated space between
(09:44):
celebrities and everyday individuals wilding significant power. In January twenty
twenty three, we closed registrations after too many users violated
our rules and thought they could ignore them and create
a new account. As we said back in twenty nineteen,
our hope had always been that this site would become
unnecessary as governments introduced proper regulations. Unfortunately, recent threats directed
(10:08):
at members of one of our families have left us
with no choice but to shut down the site. It
is simply unfair for them to be impacted by something
they have zero involvement in. It's quite ironic that the
owner of this site, which literally encourages hate on a
daily basis, is trying to take the moral high ground
with this. Now they're outraged that they're receiving threats.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
There have been influencers that have.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Been discussed on this forum that have received multiple threats
and continual harassment. Yeah, and also to act like you're
some sort of crusader who's merely been holding influences to
account and fighting for better regulation is just laughable. It
has always been an unregulated snark site and it has
been designed to bully and harass people. I think originally
(10:54):
it might have been set up with the best intention
to actually hold people to account, but the lack of
moderation has really injured the credibility of this website. Lack
of moderation. There's zero moderation, and I mean, as I said,
I have tried to get defamatory information taken off that
site down before, and there is no one monitoring it. Well,
I mean, I just don't understand how it has lasted
(11:16):
for the last seven years. And I would love for
Helen or whoever she is to be publicly named and changed. Well,
reading between the lines, it sounds like a lawyer or
some kind of representative of one of the influencers has
tracked down Helen or Whoever's family members and they've made
legal threats to these people. The timing is pretty interesting
(11:36):
because only a few weeks ago we were talking about
how Zoe Haig was crying on her YouTube video about
the commentary that she gets on sites like Tattle, and
she said that she would pay all the money she
had for a lot of the people who write on
Tattle to be unmasked.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Well, a lot of the.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Members in Tattle started freaking out because they thought that
maybe the reason it was closing down was due to
a data breach and that they're in maybe was going
to be released to the media or just on a
public speae I saw with Ashley Madison the Daily website.
So it would actually be such a coup for the
influences and people discussed on this from the unfortunate thing
is there are a lot of people that do lurk
(12:14):
on the site that aren't necessarily active on it. Well,
this actually happened back in twenty twenty one, so there
was an anonymous Instagram account called the Detectives, and they
began revealing suspected Tattle users' identities. So it was this
collection of volunteers who created the page, and they said
it was the first time anyone had stood up to
the Tattle trolls and people were able to submit details
(12:37):
of suspected bullies for analysis. Wow. It was pretty crazy though,
because Helen kept having to reassure Tattle Life that people
on Instagram can't use an app to find your home addresses,
and all of a sudden, the Detective's page just disappeared
one day and Calen claimed it was down to her,
so she wrote on tattle Life this morning we sent
an email that was written under careful advice, and shortly
(12:59):
after the aunt disappeared. So she does seem to wield
a lot of power. I think a lot of people
would be shocked if some of the members of Tattle
were unveiled, because a lot of them would be nurses, teachers, doctors.
Well that was a bit like that hate page Salty's Day.
So probably back in twenty twenty there was a snark
Instagram set up purely targeting Sarah's Day, and somehow the
(13:21):
woman's identity got unveiled and she was a teacher and
her boyfriend didn't even know about this account and found out,
which shows you how much a lot of these people
have to lose because these are professional people. But it's
quite interesting because a lot of tattle users don't mind
going after influencers, workplaces, or sponsorships, like that's something that
they do. They take it to the next level and
(13:43):
go outside of the forum and start attacking people's real lives.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Well, this announcement rocked many Tuttle Life users and they
were told the site would remain open for users to
say they're goodbyes, and this seemed really important for many
of the Tattlers, who over the years have built very
strong online friendships by bonding over their mutual hate for
a lot of influencers. One long standing user vout to
make a tattle Life two point zero and urged users
(14:10):
to join them there. There was a very mixed response
in our Facebook community. Majority of the people were like me,
and they were overjoyed and very relieved that this site
was finally going to be removed. One listener wrote, to
be honest, I think this is for the best. There
was little to no moderation on there, and some of
it was truly unhinged. It wasn't uncommon for them to
(14:30):
take aim at the appearance and behavior of influencers, children
and families who weren't online, and basically docks influences by
providing hints to real estate listings, whilst another listener said
words hold so much power. People hiding behind user names
writing hideous things about strangers is seriously unhinged. No one
deserves to be bullied. Look at the rate of suicide
(14:52):
and the impact of mental health and bullying. I'm stoked
it's gone. It was really interesting for some influencers in
our Facebook community to also weigh in, so Britney Saunders
shared her reaction to the closure, saying this may be
a completely unpopular opinion, but honestly, thank fuck. I've been
publicly on social media for over ten years and it
is astonishing the amount of anonymous bullying that I have
(15:13):
witnessed and how widely accepted it is even in twenty
twenty five. She continued, end anonymous bulling. If people want
to talk shit about influencers creators, whoever, do it amongst
your friends, or even better yet, post a video of
you talking about it to your public social media accounts.
Food influencer Leaestinis also shared her personal experience with Taddle,
(15:33):
explaining she received her own thread just before she gave
birth to her daughter. She wrote the vile commentary when
I was having a hard time, literally gave me postnatal depression,
and the words that those people wrote stuck with me
for almost two years. It hurt so bad that it
got to the point where I thought my child was
better off without me because I couldn't keep her from
vomiting on my clothes or I didn't look well kept
(15:56):
The last I read on there was someone calling at
the time my three month old not that cute. I
felt sick to my stomach. It wasn't just hatred of me,
it was talking about my daughter's appearance as a baby.
It killed me inside and I have worked for over
a year now in therapy because of it. I actually
had she was going down my spine as you were
reading that our amy. That was my rerection when I
first read Lea's comment, because we actually spoke to Leah
(16:19):
at the end of last year on our Christmas series
and tatle life got brought up and at the time
she spoke about it, she didn't sound ultra affected by it,
because I think she's been doing a lot of work
in therapy, But just hearing her go into what she
went through, particularly when she only just had her baby,
it makes me so sad, and I think it is
a really good example of why that place needs to
(16:41):
be shut down and why it is so dangerous.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The thing that.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Irritates me is so many members of TAT will say, oh, well,
the influencers shouldn't read the pages about them, We're just
holding them accountable. It's like, how is commenting on a
baby's appearance keeping an influence about it?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Was disgusting. I'd also like.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
To say to some of them, Okay, so if there
was a whole four that was public, and as you mentioned,
it gets millions of hits a year, would you not
be tempted to go on there and see what people
were saying about you?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
In our Facebook community, we did have people on the
other side of things who were quite upset that the
forum was being taken down, and that was a reason
that someone gave. They said, isn't it better the snark
is on a different page, not in the influencers comments
or dms, and they said the influencer doesn't have to
go and look at what's being said about them, But
I would challenge anyone to not go and look up
(17:31):
what is being said about them on a massive forum.
But also, just because you have a thread on title
Life dedicated to you doesn't mean you don't get trolled
in your dms and comments either. And I actually think
it's worse to have a dedicated spot because, as we
have touched on, when the Tatlers heard that the website
was shutting down, they were fully grieving, like they are
(17:51):
losing friendships they have bonded over their hate for influencers,
and it gets to a point where they're egging each
other on who can make a funnier joke and put
someone down.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
There was also a listener who said that she was
disappointed that the site was going because she said, personally,
I valued reading Tattle. It shed light on issues that
might otherwives have gone unnoticed. For instance, they exposed the
TikTok family poisoning their baby long before it was in
the public arena. They also held certain influences accountable for
repeated racist comments, and I do think that They've got
(18:23):
a point in that it has shone a light on
some important issues that may have gone unnoticed, But in
saying that, the nasty, heinous, hideous comments outshadow.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
All of that.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, and tattle Life isn't the only place where people
comment on influencers. There are a lot of subreddit threads
where people hold influences to account. I mean again, they
also involve a lot of bullying, but I think they're
much better regulated and moderated. Again, I'm not across every
single Reddit sub thread, but I think that a lot
of people are like, oh, I have to go on
(18:57):
Reddit and they moderate everything now. Unfortunately, the farewell was
short lived. Twenty four hours later, the owner of tattle
Life changed her mind. She shared a post saying, after
further discussions yet late into the night for some and
all afternoon for others, we have decided to deal with
the threats with legal action. As you will appreciate, we
won't be discussing the situation as it concerns family members
(19:19):
with no connection to tattle. All matters are with our
legal team, it continued. Once again, we apologize for the
stress of the last couple of days and hope to
see you all back on your favorite threads. Please post
on topic on the threads and ignore the whole situation
while it's being dealt with as to not jeopardize it.
The owner clearly didn't like that users were trying to
start up their own forums, as she warned, promoting groups
(19:41):
elsewhere will get a ban or posting to announce your
leaving will as it also helps no one. If we
ever do close the site for good, it will be
left live to let.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
People say their goodbyers.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It really rubbed me up the wrong way how she
said we won't be discussing the situation as it concerns
family members with no connection to tattle. Now, that has
never stopped you from allowing hate towards family members of
influencers or public figures who have nothing to do with
being in the.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Public eye being discussed.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I just hate how she's on her high horse about
it all, and I really don't understand how you can
actually seek legal action when you're an anonymous owner and
you don't want your identity exposed. Because the founder of
taddle Life goes by the pseudonym Helen McDougall. Now, disturbingly,
when you look into it, Helen McDougall is the name
of a Scottish mistress from the eighteen hundreds whose partner
(20:31):
was charged with grave Robbins and Helen also ended up
being charged with the crimes. Now, over the years, there
has been a lot of speculation around who Helen actually is,
and one widely held belief that I have to say
is unfounded is that Helen is the best friend of
one of the most discussed influencers on the site. Some
other top guesses as to who she is is that
(20:52):
she either has her own beauty business, works for the
Prime Minister, has friends in influential places, lives in France,
has a toy boy husband or a tech with husble,
or is just an absolute miserable individual that is living
in the basement of a parent's ha been go. But
I think that Helen's identity is not far away from
being exposed. Clearly someone has got her in real name. Well.
(21:15):
She has only ever given one interview during the forum's
seven year reign, and that was to lime Goss, which
is a gossip site affiliated with Tattle Life, and Helen
described Tattle as a space for reasonable critique of public figures.
She said it isn't trolling as it gives people some
way to comment about people that choose to become a
public figure and broadcast their private life to make money.
(21:38):
She also explained that she launched Tattle because she said
so many people were just brazenly breaking the guidelines for adverts. Now,
the reason that Helen is not backing down and is
choosing to fight against these threats is because she stands
to lose a significant salary if Tattle is forced to
shut up shops. So, this site has been running since
(21:59):
twenty eight and in that time it has become one
of the most visited sites in Australia and the UK,
and starts show that they rack up forty two point
three million visits in the space of just six months.
And they use Google ad Sends to place ads on
the site. Oh the ads are so bad as well,
Like they're not small ads. They literally like if you're
scrolling on the site, it takes up the whole window.
(22:22):
That's why I don't understand how no one's been able
to serve them with legal letters, because clearly their Google
ad Sense account would have to be attached linked to someone.
But it's probably just like, well, Google's not going to
provide that information. I'm more thinking of the address they
give to get the ad sense mail sent to you,
because normally Google will send you an actual letter to say, oh,
this is how much you made. Well, it'll shock you
(22:42):
even more because in twenty twenty one it was estimated
that those terrible ads actually generate Tattle more than half
a million Australian dollars in ADS revenue over a six
month period. So Helen is making approximately one million Australian
dollars a year from the forum. Well, probably more because
of three years ago, So surely it's only gone up.
(23:02):
I love in the interview how she said it's a
place to discuss people who have put themselves in the
public eye to make money. It's like, well, you're making
money off this website, so why can't we hold you
accountable for the views that you have on your website
that you make money off.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Well.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I also find it ironic that she supposedly set up
this website to call out influencers who weren't disclosing their
ads and the work that they do. Yet she is
not transparent with the Tattlers about her finances. A she
clearly has her own financial interest at stake here, and
she is making a significant amount of money for dragging
people's names through you that they don't have the money
(23:38):
to pay proper moderators. Apparently, that's the thing that I
find most shocking. If you're making over a million dollars
a year off a website, do you not have the
responsibility to hire staff to ensure that posts don't cross
the line legally and ethically. I have never seen one
post be moderated or shut down. The size of that
audience also makes me feel very uncomfortable for Helen because
(24:01):
if her identity is exposed and people are able to
sue her for defamation, a lot of the time the
figure that they come up for reputational damage is based
on how many people viewed it. So if you're getting
forty three million viewers to your website a year, that's
a hell of a lot of a paper. It also
makes sense as to why she's been able to shut
(24:24):
down attempts because in twenty twenty one, an influencer called
em Sheldon gave evidence before a parliamentary committee calling for
the site to be taken down, and this seemed to
ruffle feathers at tatle life in twenty twenty, there was
also a petition to close Tuttle, which was signed by
sixty three thousand people, and there have been a lot
of questions over whether users' identities were safe as well.
(24:46):
So she's had a few headaches, but she's always been
able to use the money that she's made off the
website to defend herself legally. Well, you can see that
she's rattled because the quick name changed is something bizarre
like eight CAAF. I mean that highlighted how panicked she
actually was, the backflip and saying we're closing down now
we're not. I think Tattle's days are numbered well in
(25:09):
terms of this name change, do we think that she
was trying to quickly delete the old website? In terms
of she's been sued for defamation? Fuck, I better get
rid of it all. Let me try and get everyone
across to this new website while I delete all of
the files from the old one. Potentially screenshots exist though well.
In Australia, there are new rules that state that people
(25:30):
who have forums or Facebook communities they are responsible for
what people post on there. So if someone writes something defamatory,
as the owner, you have the responsibility to either moderate
the comment or you could get sued because you are
responsible for that comment being up there. It's the same
for this site. There is clearly a lot going on
behind the scenes that we're not privy too. One thing
that I really hope to see out of this is
(25:51):
Tattle Life's owner's identity revealed, because I think that that
will open up a whole new kettle of fish for her. Legally,
I think if this ship is going down, a lot
of people are going down with it, and there are
going to be members who are exposed potentially via what
could have been a data breach, and this is going
to have huge ramifications. Well, that is all we've got
(26:12):
time for today. Thank you for listening to another episode
of Outspoken. If you do like this show, please leave
us a review. This podcast was recorded on the traditional
land of the Ghana people of the Adelaide Planes.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
We pay respect to elders past and present.
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