Introduction to Shakema Wilson's Journey
In this episode, Joy speaks with Shakema Wilson, a single mom of four who became debt-free and now leads an international women's ministry. Shakema shares her powerful journey from financial struggle to freedom, and how her faith played a crucial role in transforming her finances.
In this episode, you'll discover:
How Shakema paid off all her debt as a single mother of four children
The mindset shift that finally helped her become "gazelle intense" after years of budgeting
Why she believes God doesn't want His people in financial bondage
Practical advice for pastors struggling with their finances
How becoming debt-free has transformed her approach to ministry
Connect with Shakema:
Facebook: Shakema Wilson
YouTube: 1Mom2Girls2Boys8InAll
Instagram: @Shakema_Wilson
TikTok: @ShakemaOneMom
Resources Mentioned:
Financial Peace University
Introduction to Shakema Wilson's Journey
Joy Hunt: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast. I'm Joy Suzanne Hunt, pastor and financial coach, bringing you conversations about personal finance, church finance, and how we disciple our churches in the areas of finance and stewardship. You can find the episode show notes and more at pastorsandmoney.com. And here's the show.
Shakema Wilson is a single mom, a social media influencer, a teacher, and a minister. She is a proud mom of four and loves coffee, Jesus, and her family. She desires to see women healed and whole and to equip them to be good women, wives, and mothers, and she has a passion and a burden for marriage and family.
Joy Hunt: Shakema, welcome to the podcast.
Shakema Wilson: Thank you so much for having me.
Joy Hunt: I am so [00:01:00] glad you were able to join me today, and can you start by just sharing a little bit about your ministry journey and how you got started
Shakema Wilson: Absolutely. So, picture it, Sicily, 1942, right? Here I was, I was at a place in Hamilton, Alabama called The Ramp. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. But, it's a ministry that our church was in fellowship with, and we were at their winter retreat, and I just found myself. I've always loved the Lord, but I found myself plastered to the floor, feeling like the Lord was calling me to something else.
I didn't know what something else was, but I knew that it was more than what I was doing now. And like I said, I've always loved God. It wasn't, I just need more of God. It was like, God needed me to do something for Him. And so in my heart, I said I'll do whatever you want me to do, Lord. I felt very disqualified because of my background, because of where I [00:02:00] came from, because of the trauma that I experienced in my life. And so I kind of ran from the call for about two years.
Joy Hunt: Okay.
Shakema Wilson: Because I could not believe in my head that God would use somebody like me. I just thought I was too damaged. I didn't have enough.
Joy Hunt: I understand.
Shakema Wilson: I didn't feel like He could restore me even though He had already restored me. I didn't feel like He could restore me to service. I felt like He could restore me to Himself, but not to service. Like I couldn't do anything other than just serve Him and Him alone. I couldn't lead people. I just did not have the right frame of mind to think that "Yes, God can use anybody He wants to." And so when I decided to accept the calling about two years later, is when the Lord catapulted me into ministry. But it would then still be, you know, sometime much later before the ministry was fully, fully birthed. So that's just kind of [00:03:00] the beginning of all the things.
Shakema's Ministry for Women of All Ages
Joy Hunt: Can you tell us just a little bit about the ministry that you're involved in now?
Shakema Wilson: Absolutely. So the Lord graced me and blessed me to be able to start a ministry called First Love Ministries with Shakema Wilson.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joy Hunt (00:11):
Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast.
I'm Joy Suzanne Hunt, pastor and financialcoach, bringing you conversations
about personal finance, church financeand how we disciple our churches in
the areas of finance and stewardship.
You can find the episode show notes,and more at pastorsandmoney.com.
And here's the show.
(00:36):
Shakema Wilson is a singlemom, a social media influencer,
a teacher, and a minister.
She is a proud mom of four, and sheloves coffee, Jesus, and her family.
She desires to see women healed andwhole and to equip them to be good women,
wives, and mothers, and she has a passionand a burden for marriage and family.
Shakema, welcome to the podcast.
Shakema Wilson (00:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
Joy Hunt (00:59):
I am so glad you were able to join me today, and can you start by
just sharing a little bit about yourministry journey and how you got started
Shakema Wilson (01:08):
Absolutely.
So, picture it, Sicily, 1942, right?
Here I was, I was at a place inHamilton, Alabama called the ramp.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with it,but, it's a ministry that our church was
in fellowship with, and we were at theirwinter retreat and I just found myself.
(01:30):
I've always loved the Lord, butI found myself plastered to the
floor, feeling like the Lord wascalling me to something else.
I didn't know whatsomething else was, but I
knew that it was morethan what I was doing now.
And like I said, I've always loved God.
It wasn't, I just need more of God.
It was like, God needed meto do something for him.
(01:50):
And so in my, I'll dowhatever you want to do, Lord.
I felt very disqualified becauseof my background, because of where
I came from, because of the traumathat I experienced in my life.
And so I kind of ran fromthe call for about two years.
Joy Hunt (02:06):
Okay.
Shakema Wilson (02:07):
Because I could not believe in my head that
God would use somebody like me.
I just thought I was too damaged.
I
didn't have enough.
Joy Hunt (02:16):
Know
Shakema Wilson (02:17):
didn't feel like he could restore me even though
he had already restored me.
I didn't feel like he couldrestore me to service.
I felt like he could restore meto himself, but not to service.
Like I couldn't do anything otherthan just serve him and him alone.
I couldn't lead people.
I just did not have the rightframe of mind to think that yes,
God can use anybody he wants to.
(02:38):
And so when I decided to accept thecalling about two years later, it's
when the Lord really catapultedme into ministry, but it would
then still be, you know, sometime.
Much later before the ministrywas fully, fully birthed.
So that's just kind of thebeginning of, of all the things.
Joy Hunt (03:02):
Can you tell us just a little bit about, the ministry
that you're involved in now?
Shakema Wilson (03:05):
Absolutely.
So the Lord graced me, blessed me to beable to start a ministry called first
love ministries with Shakima Wilson.
I just put my name at the end of that.
So people could identify withthe, you know, most people
are facial recognition, that
kind of thing.
And I thought the Lord was going togive me the 20 somethings because I was
in my late 30s, just about to be 40.
(03:28):
And I said, God, Okay.
you're going to giveme these 20 somethings.
I'm going to be ableto tell them something.
And God gave me women twice my age.
And I felt again, very disqualified.
God, these people have lived.
They have lived.
Done all of the things.
What is it that youwant me to do with them?
And he said, Shakima, youtell them they have value.
So my first group, there are three armsunderneath this group, were called my
(03:49):
daughters of grace.
And those ladies were in theirsixties when they came to be with me.
And they have, since we've sunsettedthose ladies because they're now
in their seventies and they are notquite savvy with the technology.
In 2020, right as we were goinginto lockdown during the pandemic,
the Lord gave me a verse.
He said, and likewise, the olderwomen shall teach the younger women.
(04:11):
And I said, well, that'sa very good verse.
And I really like it, butI can't rightly recall.
the verse reference.
So I went searching for it and Ididn't realize at the time that
it was Titus 2 verses 3 through 5,
where God wanted me tobegin to teach women.
And he said, I don't wantyou to ask anybody that you
know to be a part of this.
I want you to learn.
Put it out there to your YouTubechannel, your YouTube following.
(04:34):
I had a YouTube channel at the time.
I still do.
And, I invited women, just randomwomen from All over because
we were going into lockdown.
The only place we could meetpeople were not going to church,
but we could meet virtually.
And so I put a call out ahundred women accepted the call.
68 ladies joined me onthe very first meet.
And we'd gone between, you know, wevacillated between numbers, but we,
(04:58):
have now been meeting four years.
The first Saturday in June had madefour years for us, for Titus Two Women.
And we're from all across the world.
We meet in from the United States,Canada, South Africa, Australia.
In the island, St.
Lucia, where we meet from everywhere.
(05:18):
And, that's called tightest two women.
And then on Sunday nights, becauseI'm single, I needed things to
do and people to hang out with.
So I invited ladies to just comebring your beverage of choice.
Mine is coffee.
Generally.
And we just talk about life, anything.
It's not
Christianese.
It's talk about the real thingsthat you're dealing with.
(05:40):
And that is calledcoffee and conversation.
So, it's a, ministry full of womentrying to teach women how to be the
best them they can be, because thataffects all of their home life, who
they are as women, who they are aswives and who they are as mothers.
Joy Hunt (05:56):
That's wonderful.
So, then I remember from our conversationbefore that, you said you're debt
free other than your house, right?
Shakema Wilson (06:04):
Yes,
ma'am.
Joy Hunt (06:05):
Oh, you should have seen your face when I said that.
Shakema Wilson (06:07):
Yes, ma'am.
Joy Hunt (06:09):
That's right.
So can you tell me a little bit about,what that turning point was when you
decided to become debt free also.
Cause I feel like you have this twostory, you've got your ministry story
and you've also got your debt free storyhappening kind of in parallel, right?
Shakema Wilson (06:22):
Absolutely.
So I found myself, singlemom at, 33 years old.
I didn't plan that I was married at thetime, but the person I was married to
did not choose to remain in the marriage.
And here I am with fourchildren, one, a four month old
Here I am trying to figure outhow to make it on one income.
We end up taking a class, financialpeace university through my church.
(06:44):
And I was on board.
I was in it to win.
It did not have the initial ahundred dollars to take the class.
The Lord provided that money for me.
And for like six years I was doingthe budgets and I was tracking,
but I was not gazelle intense.
I didn't, I had not fullygrasped that revelation.
(07:04):
I could pay the bills and I could, I don'teven think I had gotten anything paid off
at that point, but I was doing the budget.
So I felt good.
I was like, Oh, this is wonderful.
You
can do this.
But then I changed my eating habitsand I started to do a ketogenic eating.
And I felt like a.
Fog had been lifted off of my brainand I heard the Lord very specifically.
(07:28):
He said, Shakima, I want youto chunk every single dime
you get towards this debt.
And at that time I had started theYouTube channel and we were making
about a hundred and some dollars.
And he said, every dime you getincome tax, any money that you get
that's over and above your bills, youstart chunking it towards that debt.
(07:48):
And people would lookat me like I was crazy.
Joy Hunt (07:50):
Okay.
Shakema Wilson (07:51):
I wouldn't spend all of my money, but the, I don't have a problem
paying this interest.
This interest is getting me,let me just try to get this
interest monkey off my back.
And so I just began to chunk every, Ihad little smaller kids at that time.
So of course I got, you know,a little bit of tax money back
then.
And I just began to chunkeverything towards it.
(08:12):
I believe in 2019 the Lord allowed us topay our very last Student loan payment.
You know, when my ex left, he left mewith all the debt and my name was on it.
And I told God, I said, I, because myname is here, I'm going to pay what I owe.
That
was, that was my heart.
I wanted the Lord to know thatwhatever you give me, steward over.
(08:34):
I'm a steward.
I might not have done this well, and Igot myself into some problems, but I'm
going to get out of this with your help.
And he just said, Chunk that debt.
And I just began like a crazy person.
I mean, everything.
And eventually I paid the last.
Student loan payment.
We had some supernaturaldebt cancellation things.
(08:55):
I had a credit card company send me arefund because I had said, I've never
in my life had any, I called them.
I'm like, I surely am not done pay.
I should have been payingfor years and years.
They said, ma'am, your account is closed.
I don't know.
I'm like, you gotta be.
And they sent me a check back.
I was like, Wow.
(09:16):
it had to be the Lord because that'sthe only thing that I could think of.
I'd never heard that before.
Joy Hunt (09:22):
Wow, that's incredible.
I don't know that I've heard and I,you know, I'm a financial coach and I
don't think I've heard that 1 before.
Shakema Wilson (09:27):
I was so taken aback because I called them.
I said, are you sure?
Did you make a mistake?
Cause I wanted to be integrous in my deal.
I didn't want to, youknow, take anybody's money.
They said, man, we,
your account is closed.
And I was like, Oh my God,
Joy Hunt (09:42):
Wow.
Shakema Wilson (09:43):
natural.
Joy Hunt (09:43):
so in that process of becoming debt free, what were some of
the biggest challenges that you faced?
Shakema Wilson (09:50):
I think the main thing was, just not having a lot of income.
Where am I going to find themoney to pay extra when I'm just
scraping by on the bills as it is.
For me, it all started with
my groceries.
I sat down and I said, God,I don't know how to do this.
I need you to help me.
(10:11):
And the Lord said one word to me.
He said, coupon.
And this was back in thecoupon days when everybody.
Couponing and all the things.
And I was like, okay,whatever you say, God.
And when I first started it,I wasn't doing very well.
I spent a lot of money justtrying to use my coupons.
Taught me supernaturally becausethere weren't a lot of people
(10:31):
teaching it then, but he taught mesupernaturally how to understand the
coupon and community and I began to get
hundreds of dollars ofgroceries for small amounts.
And my little bit that I had set aside,I could take that and then chunk it
towards whatever, debt that I had.
So it started like that, but itwas like, how am I, we couldn't
(10:53):
even make it on two incomes.
How in the world am I going to pay
debt, plus the bills, plus to havekids and all these other things.
So I didn't.
Believe that I could do it, but Iwas telling someone last night, we
were actually having a conversation.
I said, the Bible tells us that a doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways,
but we think that that is in a bad thing.
(11:14):
You know, you, you, you'redouble minded if you, uh, go
out and cheat on your husband.
Well, you double minded whenyou don't believe the Lord.
you in faith one minuteand out of faith the next.
I'm in faith.
He, he can do it.
No, he can't.
So now this is why you are unstable.
This is why your household is in chaos.
This is why you don't have any good.
financial decisions.
This is why you don't have anymoney because you can't determine
(11:35):
that God wants you to be debt free.
He does because how can we financethe kingdom if we have debt
hanging over our head and I'mpaying interest to somebody else.
Joy Hunt (11:43):
Oh, that's good.
That's good.
How can we finance the kingdom ifwe've got it hanging over our heads?
Shakema Wilson (11:49):
You can't.
And my whole prayer was, Lord,I want, I don't want, I never
asked God to make me rich.
I asked God to give me seed to sell.
And the word says that hegives seed to the sower.
So God, would you give me enough thatI can take care of my household, but
then I can give into the kingdom.
It's not my
business what the kingdom doeswith it once I release it.
But at least I know those seedsare doing something for you.
(12:12):
And so I couldn't do that having thatdebt, but I had to have a mind to believe
that God wanted me out of debt so thatI could do this next piece for him.
Joy Hunt (12:22):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so good.
He doesn't, you know, the, the verse,the proverb, and I, I always forget
which, which one it is, but the one thatsays the borrower is slave to the lender
Shakema Wilson (12:32):
Mm hmm.
Joy Hunt (12:33):
and like his heart is not for us to be in slavery.
That's not God's heart for us.
And so, like, for me, I don'tknow how many times I'd read my
Bible straight through before
that verse clicked for me.
I'm like, oh,
Shakema Wilson (12:49):
right,
Joy Hunt (12:49):
oh, I don't want that.
And also that's not what God wants for me.
So, then he has provideda way out already.
Shakema Wilson (12:57):
But we're so used to it.
Specifically, those of us who havegrown up in that always borrowing,
always borrowing, or that's what,you know, that's what your parents
did, your grandparents did.
Nobody would ever get free.
when we become new creatures andwe're adopted into the family
of Christ, your family changes,
that means all the behaviors, theattitudes, the mannerisms, and all
(13:18):
of that of your heavenly father nowsuperseding Trump, that of your earthly
family.
And so you should be doing whathe was doing versus what they were
doing or what you were taught.
So it took a while to getmy brain to that point.
Like I said, six years,I was doing the budget.
But I wasn't making anytraction or headway on the debt.
Joy Hunt (13:36):
Now, I think, that when you were first in that situation,
you needed to learn the budget tosurvive and probably even wrapping
your mind around the next step.
would have beenoverwhelming at that point.
you're just trying to keep your headabove water, not just financially, but
emotionally and with all the familystuff and logistics involved with
(13:56):
being a single mom of four, whichwas not in your game plan, right?
There's this saying about whenthe student is ready, the teacher
appears and you had the rightknowledge, but until you were ready.
Shakema Wilson (14:07):
right,
Joy Hunt (14:08):
Then, then that's when you got that Holy Spirit in edge,
so okay, let's kick this into gear.
She's ready.
Let's go.
Shakema Wilson (14:14):
He was always there.
He just needed to be on board, right?
And so I'm thankful that at the, atcertain point, I was able to get it.
Like, thank you Jesusfor letting me get it.
I appreciate it.
Joy Hunt (14:26):
Yeah.
for sure.
so what I think you've already answeredsome of this, but I'd like to know more
about the role that your faith playedin getting, in becoming debt free.
Shakema Wilson (14:36):
I think, for me, my faith is the heart of who I am.
You know, I am nobody else.
Outside of the Lord, you know, there isa particular, verse of scripture that
says in him, do I live, move and have
my being.
And so everything about my life, oncewhat I thought was, was not there anymore.
I didn't have anybody else to leanand depend on except the Lord.
(14:57):
I had my church familyand they were there.
But I didn't need a crutch anymore.
I needed a firm
foundation on which to, build thisnew life that I found myself in.
And so I said, God, it's you and me.
It's you and me and these kids,whatever you want me to do, let me know.
And I'm going to be faithfuland, diligent to do it.
I spent a lot of time with Godwhere my finances were concerned,
(15:21):
where my life was concerned,raising my children, all of that.
And it was God, I don'tknow how to do this.
And the Bible says that Holy spiritwill bring us into all truth.
So I leaned on that and I wasnot double minded anymore.
I didn't think God
wanted it for somebodyelse, but not for me.
And I didn't think that, you know,this was for a specific group of
people, but not the single people.
This was only for married and notyou or you you're some cop how
(15:44):
damage because you're divorced.
I had to let this mind be in me,which is also in Christ Jesus
and whatever he said about me.
That was what I said about mebecause I believe that life and
death are in the power of the tongue.
So I am debt free.
God wants me blessed.
God wants me wealthy.
And I
just had to begin to change.
That tone change that self talk check.
(16:06):
God wants my children blessed.
God wants the third and fourthgeneration to have something.
He wants you to leave aninheritance for your children.
You know, I had to believe itand then start living it out.
and that's, I think how I function now,
but I really had to lean into theLord in those early days of a total
(16:28):
new life that I hadn't planned.
Joy Hunt (16:30):
Yeah, I think you hit something there with those things that we tell
ourselves and like affirmations andthings like that can have a funny place
in the church space sometimes becausewe are not like prosperity gospel here.
We are not, you know, Oh, just becauseI said it, but it matters what I say
to myself because I'm going to actbased on what I think about myself.
Shakema Wilson (16:54):
Right.
Joy Hunt (16:55):
sometimes I have to go back and say, speak God's truth back over my
life until I start to think that way,be transformed by renewing your mind.
Right.
and sometimes in a practical sense,what that is going to look like
is speaking those things that thesecular world would call affirmations.
Right.
And we're really, we're inour case, we're affirming.
what God said about us.
(17:17):
We're affirming what God's best is for us.
whether it's that dream that he'sspoken into our hearts or whether
it's something that he's called us to,or whether it's, just his scriptural
truths about our identity, that we haveto change that pattern in our brain
Shakema Wilson (17:32):
For
Joy Hunt (17:32):
that changes the pattern in our heart.
And that changes, literallychanges our behavior.
If you don't think it's possible.
If you don't think it's even inyour, like, if the box doesn't even
exist for it to be possible, right?
Then you're not going to act insuch a way as to follow God's
lead in that part of your life.
Shakema Wilson (17:51):
Absolutely.
Joy Hunt (17:52):
So how has becoming debt free changed the way that you
approach ministry and the way that yourespond to God's leading in ministry?
Shakema Wilson (18:02):
I think becoming debt free now allows me to move
freely in ministry because I cantravel, I can go places and not worry
about how am I going to pay for it.
I don't have to miss anopportunity because I don't
have the money to do something.
I know how to save up.
It's not like I justrandomly go out and just.
(18:24):
But I'm asking God, I'mreally checking with the Lord.
Is this something that youwant me to be a part of?
And if it is, give me the
strategy on how to save, how to do it.
When I go places I cangive into the kingdom.
I'm not just barely making it there, but
I can get there and have somethingto sew into that ministry
that's feeding me.
(18:45):
the Lord spoke to me.
I travel minister quite a, quite often.
I don't travel.
All that far when I have to drive.
So within my drivingareas, a couple of states.
So the Lord spoke to me years ago andhe said, Shakima, when you go to places,
if they give you a love offering,I want you to put that money up.
Don't spend it.
I want you to put it up because you'regoing to have to go places multiple times.
(19:09):
So I don't ever ask for anhonorarium for people to bring me in.
You want me to come praise God.
I'm happy to share the word of God.
If you want to bless me,that's perfectly fine.
I appreciate that as well.
But the Lord had alreadyplanned for me to travel.
So he says, if they give you a loveoffering, then you take that you tie and
then you put the remainder in your accountbecause you might have to travel again.
(19:32):
So that money is sittingand it accrues interest.
And, It allows me to go fromplace to place to place.
And I'm not taxing the host church whowants me to come in where you got to
buy my plane ticket and that you gotto get my rental car and you got to
meet me at the airport in a Bentley.
And I need to have, you know, I needa driver and all this other stuff.
(19:53):
I'm a five star, six star hotel.
You know, I'm just a regularperson who believes that the Lord
wants me to preach the gospel.
He provides a way for me
to do that.
And so I never want to be aburden to people that he wants
me to go and share with again, ifthey want to bless me, perfect.
If they die, never go thinking,Oh my God, I wonder what they're
(20:14):
going to bless me with today.
Because I'm like, when you are, when youdepth, when I'm, Because I'm debt free.
I always believe that God has takencare of me before I even go a place.
Wherever I go, the Bible says, whereverthe sole of your foot tread, right?
So I believe that wherever I go,I have dominion in that area.
I don't worry about,
Joy Hunt (20:35):
Okay.
Shakema Wilson (20:38):
about finances because God's taken care of it and he's
shown me how to do it if I need to.
And I never want people, evenin my ministry now, I don't
regularly take up offerings.
We meet every week.
It's my time.
I give it for free.
If people want to bless me fine.
That's not the general.
I have two people that bless meevery single month with something and
(21:00):
I'm thankful for that.
But there's a whole lot ofother people that just come and
that, Hey, listen, that's finebecause God's going to take care.
But I never want the, people tofeel like I'm pressing on their
neck for them to give because Ineed their money to pay my bills.
I have a job
that is.
I'm bi vocational, so I work a secular joband I do this out of the love for the lord
(21:25):
that's in my heart, not for the money.
So anytime, money comes up, I'm veryleery because I never want people
who might be in my situation, the
situation I was in, struggling, feelinglike they got, oh god, now I gotta,
what, what can I not pay so I can givesomething into this cause or Pastor's
asking for an offering so I guess wegonna have to be a little lean over
(21:46):
here I just don't want any of that.
So I try to teach Uh, responsiblemoney management, biblical money
management, forget responsible,biblical money management.
So that people don't haveto feel that way either.
Joy Hunt (21:58):
Mm-hmm . what I love about that is that God has put you, positioned you
financially in a place to be able to servepeople that just like you couldn't cover
that first financial peace class right.
but he's positioned you for that,to be able to serve people in
dealing with those situations.
(22:19):
and at the same time, because you havebeen obedient and in having yourself
be in a healthy financial place,you're able to kind of so forward
with every one of those opportunitiesand you're able to, you know, like, I
think none of us would have a problemwith the speakers that go that have to
have a speaker fee, but you have theflexibility to not need that to live on
(22:43):
because you have your other job, but alsobecause you've got this mess cleaned up.
Shakema Wilson (22:47):
Right.
Joy Hunt (22:48):
Yeah.
so then as, someone who teachesothers, like you just said about,
you know, biblical financialmanagement, What would you say is the
biggest obstacle people face when itcomes to handling money God's way?
Shakema Wilson (23:01):
I think it's a mindset.
most people can't see themselvesdebt free or they don't see
themselves the way that God sees us.
Right?
we don't see ourselves as jointheirs with Jesus Christ, but
that's what the Bible says.
So he didn't lack for anything,we shouldn't lack for anything.
Comparison is also another problem.
We see somebody with a new car,we think we gotta get a new car.
(23:23):
Your car that you have currently,is paid off, you don't owe anybody.
you see your neighbor has something new.
So now you got to go get something new.
And now you are stuck under the weightof the interest and all of the payments
you can't make.
So comparison for sure.
I want this, I don't haveenough patience to wait, save.
(23:44):
To put aside or, believe the Lordthat somebody wants to bless us.
I think we have to do our part.
God's going to do his part.
We do our part, but God never callsus to look at what our neighbor has.
It says, don't come atwhat your neighbor has.
And so we cover it andthen we get in problems.
And then we want God to come to our rescuebecause he is our hero and he does rescue
us, but not from making poor decisions.
(24:06):
And then we blame him because weput ourself in a bad decision.
In the cyclical, kind of thing, like,well, God didn't want me to be blessed.
Yes, he did.
He just didn't want you to do it that way.
So it is definitely a mindset, a mindsetshift that needs to happen to the majority
of people on how to deal with yourmoney, the way God says to deal with it.
Joy Hunt (24:28):
Yeah, so how do we then, deal with shifting that mindset?
Shakema Wilson (24:32):
I think when you.
For Christians, right?
My son, it's always a big joke aroundhere when we talk about the brethren.
I remember preaching one timeand, and I was talking about
the brethren and my, you know,
my sister is always here withme and my son was like, mom,
don't you mean the sistering?
Joy Hunt (24:48):
deal with that?
Shakema Wilson (24:50):
the brethren, it, the Bible is for us.
It's for the people whoclaim that we are Christians.
We believe in Jesus.
We walk like Jesus.
So if the Bible is for us and Godhas clearly marked out biblically,
what Biblical finances should
look like, should we not then apply thatto our lives, no matter what anybody
(25:12):
else has to say about it, if we applythe biblical principles, the way that
the Lord set it out, then we would allbe in the best position to be able to do
not just for our family, but for others.
And so.
I think it's really getting a revelation
about what the, what theword says about finances.
(25:34):
And most people glance over that partbecause we get hung up on the tithe.
Oh, I don't have 10%.
Well, if God trusts God for the 90, right,that 10 percent ain't going to do nothing.
It don't matter what,
got all this debt anyway, youain't even gonna miss that.
So just.
God for the 90, but we holdon so much to that 10%.
(25:56):
If you believe in biblical tithing, I do.
I know people say that'sold covenant, whatever.
God's going to give me credit for it.
Cause I do it anyway.
and, and offer, but I'm
at a position now, but why am I fightingover that 10 when God has freely given
me the 90 to use is self management.
It's it's family management.
It's the husband trying to be the headof the household and he's bad with money.
(26:19):
And
so because he has to be the headof the household, wife is so much
better at it, but he can't lose
his head of the household statusso he won't let her manage it.
So it's all of these differentdynamics that have no business
in, in a kingdom household at all.
Who's better?
Let them do it.
We all sit down and talk about it,and we, we manage it the way God does.
(26:41):
So,
Joy Hunt (26:42):
Delegation, like any good manager would know, right?
Shakema Wilson (26:45):
Saying we're a budget committee of one.
Joy Hunt (26:47):
Gotta go have a budget committee meeting with myself.
Shakema Wilson (26:49):
That's right.
And I'm gonna argue justfor the sake of arguing.
Joy Hunt (26:53):
There you go.
So what practical advice wouldyou give to pastors who want to be
able to disciple their people inbiblical financial principles and
be more effective in that area?
Shakema Wilson (27:04):
So I think, the truth of the matter is
your opinion is not necessary.
Your experience could be helpful.
But your
opinion is not necessary.
God has marked it out clearly in his wordhow we're supposed to manage our finances.
(27:24):
And so when you stick to thatpractical teaching, because it's
very practical, it's not impractical,it's not beyond the reach of people.
We can get it, but we wantto insert our opinions on how
we think it should be done.
No, no, no.
We're going to go ahead and just.
Teach it the way that it's,it's laid out here for us.
If you
(27:44):
have an experience that can speak tosomething and we can see that there's been
fruit from that, that's helpful, but itis not necessary that you insert yourself
into a place that God clearly has already,if he gave us the word and, and the word
can do so many things, what more words canyou, can yours add Just teach this, right?
Just teach, just teach the principles,but then also compassion for people
(28:09):
because it took me six yearsto get that aha moment.
I was doing the, I was doing thebudget, but I wasn't, I wasn't
gazelle intense for six years.
So we need compassion.
You keep teaching.
Do not become a crutch for people.
Don't always get people out.
No, give them solutions or a problem.
(28:30):
Help them problem solve on how todo it because the church becomes
Jesus when we always pay inthe light bill and all of that.
We not Jesus.
Jesus says we don't.
We gonna help you but we gonnahelp you biblically to get yourself
in a better financial position.
Joy Hunt (28:47):
that's so good the way that you said that I was thinking
actually have a conversation I hadin the airport with a pastor in
an island in the Caribbean, of whichname I do not remember at the moment.
But he was telling me that the problemthey have in their church because this is
what happens when you wear a A money shirtwith a Bible verse on it in the airport.
He was telling the problem that theyhave in their church is that the culture
(29:11):
expects the church to Solve all theproblems and while there isn't a place
for that that's not good for people,
Shakema Wilson (29:18):
For
sure.
Joy Hunt (29:19):
and so then how do you Meet the need when there's a real need but then
also build a bridge to say, okay Likewe're not going to enable you to stay
where you are because that's not healthy
Shakema Wilson (29:33):
Right.
Joy Hunt (29:33):
There's a difference between helping somebody out who just lost
their job or helping somebody out who'sgoing through, you know, a medical
crisis or something and continuing toenable, enable them on a long term.
And so, and then he said, what'shappened in that culture is they've
swung too far to that one side, right?
And then some churches are too far tothe other side or just don't have the
(29:54):
resources on the other side, which isa, you know, a different situation.
And so, but the best gift wecan give our people financially.
Is to be able to walk them through,
Shakema Wilson (30:05):
Yes.
Joy Hunt (30:06):
like, let's not stay there.
Shakema Wilson (30:08):
Right.
And I think, you know, when you findyourself working in tandem with the
Holy Spirit, that's exactly what it'slike as a pastor when you walk in beside
Families, but we're help not manipulation.
We only going to help you.
If you do this, we're goingto help you, but these are the
requirements to get this help.
I need you to attend this meeting.
(30:28):
I need you to
do whatever the process is,but we sometimes in our.
Ambition to help inour exuberance to help.
we take away the requirements or we take
away the additional things to help.
We want to immediately meet the need.
And once you do that, people are gone.
(30:49):
People gone until thenext time they need it.
It's almost like a crackheadtrying to get a hit.
I'm good after you give methat, but I'm, yeah, I'm good.
As soon as that craving again, orI've spent wrong, or this thing
comes due again, we're back againto the church to help one more time.
And so you've drained yourresources dry because most people
are hand out and nobody's giving.
(31:11):
Hands up.
Look, I can't, I can'tbe down here with you.
This is not my life, but I've beenthere before and I can show you how to
get out of this place if you want that.
Joy Hunt (31:21):
And I'm not going to help you stay there, either.
Shakema Wilson (31:23):
Sure.
That's not what I'm here for.
Joy Hunt (31:25):
Yeah, so I've known some churches who have, you know, if people
get assistance with certain things,depending on the situation, right?
You know, but that some churches willsay, okay, like we can help you with
this, but you need to go through financialpeace, or we can help you this, but you
need to meet with a coach and here'ssomebody that we work with, right?
Or different kinds of things so thatwe're not helping you stay where we are.
(31:47):
We actually are giving you that step up.
So a lot of our pastors, you know, We'rewanting to disciple our people, but
we're also, you know, a lot of pastorsare struggling with their own finances.
So what encouragement would you give tosomebody who just feels overwhelmed by
their own financial situation right now?
Shakema Wilson (32:07):
I think you just have to sit down and have that meeting.
That meeting is important, whether you'remeeting with your spouse or meeting with
yourself or meeting with somebody toreally get a handle on what it looks like.
It can be very scary to sit down andlook at those numbers, but once you
can then formulate a plan.
(32:28):
If I know what's in front of me,now I know how to deal with it.
Just putting your head underthe covers is not working.
Clearly it's not worked before.
So now let's be really courageous andlook at and be truthful and honest.
Put everything out there.
every single thing out there.
And then you begin to tackleit one bite at a time.
(32:51):
You may not have somebody giveto the church thousands and
thousands or give to you personally
thousands and thousands, but the Lordhas a way to get out of the places that
we're in debt is no, is no different.
He wants us out of this.
He shows us how.
So I say, you gotta takea real good look at it.
And if you're not capable, Ask for help.
(33:12):
Yes, you're the lead senior pastorof the third holy ghost denomination.
Amen.
But I need some help and that'swhere I think that ministry friends
are important find somebody Thatyou can sit down with that says hey,
listen, this is exactly where I am.
It's no judgment zone, but we'regonna You know, sometimes we got
to go through the process before we
(33:33):
can take the people through the process.
That's where yourexperience becomes helpful.
Hey, I did this too.
I was at a point in my life thatpeople can understand to know that,
hey, you didn't have it all together,but you do need to get it together.
Joy Hunt (33:49):
Yeah, and it's a process.
And.
I think sometimes we're afraidto talk about it until we've
arrived at a certain point.
And I think there's a value insaying, this is where I'm growing.
Shakema Wilson (34:02):
Sure.
Joy Hunt (34:03):
or like you don't have to have arrived at being debt free to
be living that lifestyle, you know,and to be like, I'm making progress.
I'm feeling traction.
I am, I remember tellingpeople I felt fine.
I didn't feel financial peace afterpaying off my last student loan.
I felt financial peace a month into,Learning how to do a budget and working
(34:26):
a plan and realizing it's actuallyworking like I'm actually like, Oh,
I'm walking in obedience and I'mdoing what I'm supposed to be doing
and I'm actually getting traction.
And so I didn't have to wait tillthree and a half years later when
I was done cleaning up that big oldmess I had, even the people around me
started benefiting from my journey.
in those first couple months,because I wouldn't shut up about it.
Shakema Wilson (34:49):
Well, here I am 15 years later
Joy Hunt (34:50):
You're in good company.
Shakema Wilson (34:52):
it's 15 years and it's made the biggest impact in my life
because I don't feel like I'm behind.
I don't feel like everybody else isdoing things that I can't, but I do
understand being the head leader.
it can be a little bit naturallyor humanly shameful that you don't
have all the answers, but And heleads and guides us into all truth.
(35:16):
Holy spirit does.
So I think once we get over ourselvesand over people and what they're
going to think, then we can, youknow, we can move forward in things.
There
were people who talkedabout me real bad, real bad.
I remember, I rememberit was one Christmas.
This was, Oh, several, several years ago.
And there was a particularfamily that needed some help,
(35:39):
but they always needed help.
And I remember always needing help, butI was talking to another couple and the
husband, not even the wife, the husbandsaid, Shakima, He said, you came a long
way, girl.
He said, I would throw myhead in with you anytime.
He said, because you'regoing to go after it.
You're going to get it.
You're going to, you'regoing to make it happen.
He said, I've seen you digyourself out of some problems.
(36:01):
And he said, yeah, I'll go inwith you anytime, but you're
constantly getting people out.
And I'm just not at that point anymore.
I'm not at the point of shame.
If I, if I have an issue, I knowhow to say, Hey, I got an issue.
Now you can't trust everybody with that.
You just
have to have.
a solid group, a solid person, one or two.
(36:22):
The Bible says that there'ssafety in a multitude of counsel.
Sometimes you do need,you need the counsel.
We always trying to provideit, but sometimes we need it.
Don't allow yourself not to getministry just because you're trying to
feed the ministry or do the ministry.
You need ministry too.
Joy Hunt (36:39):
yes, as pastors, we need friends who are in ministry.
one of those first criticalrelationships with me was meeting
with a Christian therapist
Shakema Wilson (36:46):
Yeah.
Joy Hunt (36:47):
and it was a game changer and you know what, I saw her last
week, and because it's not, I don'tjust get my oil changed on my car
when my car is going to break down,I keep maintaining it long after that
and, but I can, I feel like aspastors, it can be hard to find
some of those, Hard to know where weshould take some of those questions
or hard to find those relationships.
(37:08):
And, you know, as you're, you'resharing, I was thinking, you know, I'm
not ashamed if I have to go ask themechanic to work on my car or if I have
to ask people for it, can you recommenda few good mechanics around here?
But we feel that way when we need helpwith something that's on the inside.
Shakema Wilson (37:26):
Oh, For sure.
Because of the judgment, we alwaysthink that there's going to be
judgment and there might be, butthen those are not your people.
But I think as pastors,we have to Ask for help.
And we also have to be safe spaces.
If I've gone through and I know what it'slike, then I have to now offer myself as a
(37:46):
safe space for the next person who'scoming to say, Hey, I can't share
this with my congregation, but Ineed somebody to share this with.
So I'm gonna get what I need,but I'm also going to give what?
I needed when I needed it.
Joy Hunt (38:01):
Yes, yes, yeah, for sure.
I love that.
so, as we get ready to close here,Shakima, can you share just where people
can connect with you online and learnmore about the work that you're doing?
Shakema Wilson (38:11):
Absolutely.
So you can follow me onFacebook, Shakima Wilson.
I'm the lady with the microphonein her mouth, really big.
I'm also on YouTube, one mom, twogirls, two boys, eight in all.
Those are all numbers.
Most people get confusedabout the eight is
myself, my four children, thefather, son, and Holy spirit.
(38:31):
You can also be on Instagramas Shakima underscore Wilson
and Tik TOK as Shakima one mom.
So I'm out here doing all the things.
I do a lot of things, mostlymoney and momming and Jesus.
We do that first
Joy Hunt (38:47):
Well, that just plays into all the other ones, right?
Shakema Wilson (38:50):
thing.
Joy Hunt (38:51):
That's right.
Well, Shakima, thank you somuch for your time today.
And I just, I knew when we gotintroduced, and then when we had our first
conversation, that we were gonna click.
And so this has been areally fun time with you.
Shakema Wilson (39:05):
so much.
Joy Hunt (39:09):
Thank you for listening to today's show.
I'd love to know what you think about it.
You can leave a comment on the shownotes at pastorsandmoney.com/podcast,
or email me at joy@pastorsandmoney.com.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, share, and leave a review.
This helps us to get the wordout and invite more people
into these conversations.
(39:30):
If you'd like to connect, you canfind me on Instagram or Facebook.
@ PastorsandMoney.
I can't wait to talk again soon.
Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast.
I'm Joy Suzanne Hunt, pastor and financialcoach, bringing you conversations
about personal finance, church financeand how we disciple our churches in
the areas of finance and stewardship.
You can find the episode show notes,and more at pastorsandmoney.com.
And here's the show.
(00:36):
Shakema Wilson is a singlemom, a social media influencer,
a teacher, and a minister.
She is a proud mom of four, and sheloves coffee, Jesus, and her family.
She desires to see women healed andwhole and to equip them to be good women,
wives, and mothers, and she has a passionand a burden for marriage and family.
Shakema, welcome to the podcast.
Shakema Wilson (00:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
Joy Hunt (00:59):
I am so glad you were able to join me today, and can you start by
just sharing a little bit about yourministry journey and how you got started
Shakema Wilson (01:08):
Absolutely.
So, picture it, Sicily, 1942, right?
Here I was, I was at a place inHamilton, Alabama called the ramp.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with it,but, it's a ministry that our church was
in fellowship with, and we were at theirwinter retreat and I just found myself.
(01:30):
I've always loved the Lord, butI found myself plastered to the
floor, feeling like the Lord wascalling me to something else.
I didn't know whatsomething else was, but I
knew that it was morethan what I was doing now.
And like I said, I've always loved God.
It wasn't, I just need more of God.
It was like, God needed meto do something for him.
(01:50):
And so in my, I'll dowhatever you want to do, Lord.
I felt very disqualified becauseof my background, because of where
I came from, because of the traumathat I experienced in my life.
And so I kind of ran fromthe call for about two years.
Joy Hunt (02:06):
Okay.
Shakema Wilson (02:07):
Because I could not believe in my head that
God would use somebody like me.
I just thought I was too damaged.
I
didn't have enough.
Joy Hunt (02:16):
Know
Shakema Wilson (02:17):
didn't feel like he could restore me even though
he had already restored me.
I didn't feel like he couldrestore me to service.
I felt like he could restore meto himself, but not to service.
Like I couldn't do anything otherthan just serve him and him alone.
I couldn't lead people.
I just did not have the rightframe of mind to think that yes,
God can use anybody he wants to.
(02:38):
And so when I decided to accept thecalling about two years later, it's
when the Lord really catapultedme into ministry, but it would
then still be, you know, sometime.
Much later before the ministrywas fully, fully birthed.
So that's just kind of thebeginning of, of all the things.
Joy Hunt (03:02):
Can you tell us just a little bit about, the ministry
that you're involved in now?
Shakema Wilson (03:05):
Absolutely.
So the Lord graced me, blessed me to beable to start a ministry called first
love ministries with Shakima Wilson.
I just put my name at the end of that.
So people could identify withthe, you know, most people
are facial recognition, that
kind of thing.
And I thought the Lord was going togive me the 20 somethings because I was
in my late 30s, just about to be 40.
(03:28):
And I said, God, Okay.
you're going to giveme these 20 somethings.
I'm going to be ableto tell them something.
And God gave me women twice my age.
And I felt again, very disqualified.
God, these people have lived.
They have lived.
Done all of the things.
What is it that youwant me to do with them?
And he said, Shakima, youtell them they have value.
So my first group, there are three armsunderneath this group, were called my
(03:49):
daughters of grace.
And those ladies were in theirsixties when they came to be with me.
And they have, since we've sunsettedthose ladies because they're now
in their seventies and they are notquite savvy with the technology.
In 2020, right as we were goinginto lockdown during the pandemic,
the Lord gave me a verse.
He said, and likewise, the olderwomen shall teach the younger women.
(04:11):
And I said, well, that'sa very good verse.
And I really like it, butI can't rightly recall.
the verse reference.
So I went searching for it and Ididn't realize at the time that
it was Titus 2 verses 3 through 5,
where God wanted me tobegin to teach women.
And he said, I don't wantyou to ask anybody that you
know to be a part of this.
I want you to learn.
Put it out there to your YouTubechannel, your YouTube following.
(04:34):
I had a YouTube channel at the time.
I still do.
And, I invited women, just randomwomen from All over because
we were going into lockdown.
The only place we could meetpeople were not going to church,
but we could meet virtually.
And so I put a call out ahundred women accepted the call.
68 ladies joined me onthe very first meet.
And we'd gone between, you know, wevacillated between numbers, but we,
(04:58):
have now been meeting four years.
The first Saturday in June had madefour years for us, for Titus Two Women.
And we're from all across the world.
We meet in from the United States,Canada, South Africa, Australia.
In the island, St.
Lucia, where we meet from everywhere.
(05:18):
And, that's called tightest two women.
And then on Sunday nights, becauseI'm single, I needed things to
do and people to hang out with.
So I invited ladies to just comebring your beverage of choice.
Mine is coffee.
Generally.
And we just talk about life, anything.
It's not
Christianese.
It's talk about the real thingsthat you're dealing with.
(05:40):
And that is calledcoffee and conversation.
So, it's a, ministry full of womentrying to teach women how to be the
best them they can be, because thataffects all of their home life, who
they are as women, who they are aswives and who they are as mothers.
Joy Hunt (05:56):
That's wonderful.
So, then I remember from our conversationbefore that, you said you're debt
free other than your house, right?
Shakema Wilson (06:04):
Yes,
ma'am.
Joy Hunt (06:05):
Oh, you should have seen your face when I said that.
Shakema Wilson (06:07):
Yes, ma'am.
Joy Hunt (06:09):
That's right.
So can you tell me a little bit about,what that turning point was when you
decided to become debt free also.
Cause I feel like you have this twostory, you've got your ministry story
and you've also got your debt free storyhappening kind of in parallel, right?
Shakema Wilson (06:22):
Absolutely.
So I found myself, singlemom at, 33 years old.
I didn't plan that I was married at thetime, but the person I was married to
did not choose to remain in the marriage.
And here I am with fourchildren, one, a four month old
Here I am trying to figure outhow to make it on one income.
We end up taking a class, financialpeace university through my church.
(06:44):
And I was on board.
I was in it to win.
It did not have the initial ahundred dollars to take the class.
The Lord provided that money for me.
And for like six years I was doingthe budgets and I was tracking,
but I was not gazelle intense.
I didn't, I had not fullygrasped that revelation.
(07:04):
I could pay the bills and I could, I don'teven think I had gotten anything paid off
at that point, but I was doing the budget.
So I felt good.
I was like, Oh, this is wonderful.
You
can do this.
But then I changed my eating habitsand I started to do a ketogenic eating.
And I felt like a.
Fog had been lifted off of my brainand I heard the Lord very specifically.
(07:28):
He said, Shakima, I want youto chunk every single dime
you get towards this debt.
And at that time I had started theYouTube channel and we were making
about a hundred and some dollars.
And he said, every dime you getincome tax, any money that you get
that's over and above your bills, youstart chunking it towards that debt.
(07:48):
And people would lookat me like I was crazy.
Joy Hunt (07:50):
Okay.
Shakema Wilson (07:51):
I wouldn't spend all of my money, but the, I don't have a problem
paying this interest.
This interest is getting me,let me just try to get this
interest monkey off my back.
And so I just began to chunk every, Ihad little smaller kids at that time.
So of course I got, you know,a little bit of tax money back
then.
And I just began to chunkeverything towards it.
(08:12):
I believe in 2019 the Lord allowed us topay our very last Student loan payment.
You know, when my ex left, he left mewith all the debt and my name was on it.
And I told God, I said, I, because myname is here, I'm going to pay what I owe.
That
was, that was my heart.
I wanted the Lord to know thatwhatever you give me, steward over.
(08:34):
I'm a steward.
I might not have done this well, and Igot myself into some problems, but I'm
going to get out of this with your help.
And he just said, Chunk that debt.
And I just began like a crazy person.
I mean, everything.
And eventually I paid the last.
Student loan payment.
We had some supernaturaldebt cancellation things.
(08:55):
I had a credit card company send me arefund because I had said, I've never
in my life had any, I called them.
I'm like, I surely am not done pay.
I should have been payingfor years and years.
They said, ma'am, your account is closed.
I don't know.
I'm like, you gotta be.
And they sent me a check back.
I was like, Wow.
(09:16):
it had to be the Lord because that'sthe only thing that I could think of.
I'd never heard that before.
Joy Hunt (09:22):
Wow, that's incredible.
I don't know that I've heard and I,you know, I'm a financial coach and I
don't think I've heard that 1 before.
Shakema Wilson (09:27):
I was so taken aback because I called them.
I said, are you sure?
Did you make a mistake?
Cause I wanted to be integrous in my deal.
I didn't want to, youknow, take anybody's money.
They said, man, we,
your account is closed.
And I was like, Oh my God,
Joy Hunt (09:42):
Wow.
Shakema Wilson (09:43):
natural.
Joy Hunt (09:43):
so in that process of becoming debt free, what were some of
the biggest challenges that you faced?
Shakema Wilson (09:50):
I think the main thing was, just not having a lot of income.
Where am I going to find themoney to pay extra when I'm just
scraping by on the bills as it is.
For me, it all started with
my groceries.
I sat down and I said, God,I don't know how to do this.
I need you to help me.
(10:11):
And the Lord said one word to me.
He said, coupon.
And this was back in thecoupon days when everybody.
Couponing and all the things.
And I was like, okay,whatever you say, God.
And when I first started it,I wasn't doing very well.
I spent a lot of money justtrying to use my coupons.
Taught me supernaturally becausethere weren't a lot of people
(10:31):
teaching it then, but he taught mesupernaturally how to understand the
coupon and community and I began to get
hundreds of dollars ofgroceries for small amounts.
And my little bit that I had set aside,I could take that and then chunk it
towards whatever, debt that I had.
So it started like that, but itwas like, how am I, we couldn't
(10:53):
even make it on two incomes.
How in the world am I going to pay
debt, plus the bills, plus to havekids and all these other things.
So I didn't.
Believe that I could do it, but Iwas telling someone last night, we
were actually having a conversation.
I said, the Bible tells us that a doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways,
but we think that that is in a bad thing.
(11:14):
You know, you, you, you'redouble minded if you, uh, go
out and cheat on your husband.
Well, you double minded whenyou don't believe the Lord.
you in faith one minuteand out of faith the next.
I'm in faith.
He, he can do it.
No, he can't.
So now this is why you are unstable.
This is why your household is in chaos.
This is why you don't have any good.
financial decisions.
This is why you don't have anymoney because you can't determine
(11:35):
that God wants you to be debt free.
He does because how can we financethe kingdom if we have debt
hanging over our head and I'mpaying interest to somebody else.
Joy Hunt (11:43):
Oh, that's good.
That's good.
How can we finance the kingdom ifwe've got it hanging over our heads?
Shakema Wilson (11:49):
You can't.
And my whole prayer was, Lord,I want, I don't want, I never
asked God to make me rich.
I asked God to give me seed to sell.
And the word says that hegives seed to the sower.
So God, would you give me enough thatI can take care of my household, but
then I can give into the kingdom.
It's not my
business what the kingdom doeswith it once I release it.
But at least I know those seedsare doing something for you.
(12:12):
And so I couldn't do that having thatdebt, but I had to have a mind to believe
that God wanted me out of debt so thatI could do this next piece for him.
Joy Hunt (12:22):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so good.
He doesn't, you know, the, the verse,the proverb, and I, I always forget
which, which one it is, but the one thatsays the borrower is slave to the lender
Shakema Wilson (12:32):
Mm hmm.
Joy Hunt (12:33):
and like his heart is not for us to be in slavery.
That's not God's heart for us.
And so, like, for me, I don'tknow how many times I'd read my
Bible straight through before
that verse clicked for me.
I'm like, oh,
Shakema Wilson (12:49):
right,
Joy Hunt (12:49):
oh, I don't want that.
And also that's not what God wants for me.
So, then he has provideda way out already.
Shakema Wilson (12:57):
But we're so used to it.
Specifically, those of us who havegrown up in that always borrowing,
always borrowing, or that's what,you know, that's what your parents
did, your grandparents did.
Nobody would ever get free.
when we become new creatures andwe're adopted into the family
of Christ, your family changes,
that means all the behaviors, theattitudes, the mannerisms, and all
(13:18):
of that of your heavenly father nowsuperseding Trump, that of your earthly
family.
And so you should be doing whathe was doing versus what they were
doing or what you were taught.
So it took a while to getmy brain to that point.
Like I said, six years,I was doing the budget.
But I wasn't making anytraction or headway on the debt.
Joy Hunt (13:36):
Now, I think, that when you were first in that situation,
you needed to learn the budget tosurvive and probably even wrapping
your mind around the next step.
would have beenoverwhelming at that point.
you're just trying to keep your headabove water, not just financially, but
emotionally and with all the familystuff and logistics involved with
(13:56):
being a single mom of four, whichwas not in your game plan, right?
There's this saying about whenthe student is ready, the teacher
appears and you had the rightknowledge, but until you were ready.
Shakema Wilson (14:07):
right,
Joy Hunt (14:08):
Then, then that's when you got that Holy Spirit in edge,
so okay, let's kick this into gear.
She's ready.
Let's go.
Shakema Wilson (14:14):
He was always there.
He just needed to be on board, right?
And so I'm thankful that at the, atcertain point, I was able to get it.
Like, thank you Jesusfor letting me get it.
I appreciate it.
Joy Hunt (14:26):
Yeah.
for sure.
so what I think you've already answeredsome of this, but I'd like to know more
about the role that your faith playedin getting, in becoming debt free.
Shakema Wilson (14:36):
I think, for me, my faith is the heart of who I am.
You know, I am nobody else.
Outside of the Lord, you know, there isa particular, verse of scripture that
says in him, do I live, move and have
my being.
And so everything about my life, oncewhat I thought was, was not there anymore.
I didn't have anybody else to leanand depend on except the Lord.
(14:57):
I had my church familyand they were there.
But I didn't need a crutch anymore.
I needed a firm
foundation on which to, build thisnew life that I found myself in.
And so I said, God, it's you and me.
It's you and me and these kids,whatever you want me to do, let me know.
And I'm going to be faithfuland, diligent to do it.
I spent a lot of time with Godwhere my finances were concerned,
(15:21):
where my life was concerned,raising my children, all of that.
And it was God, I don'tknow how to do this.
And the Bible says that Holy spiritwill bring us into all truth.
So I leaned on that and I wasnot double minded anymore.
I didn't think God
wanted it for somebodyelse, but not for me.
And I didn't think that, you know,this was for a specific group of
people, but not the single people.
This was only for married and notyou or you you're some cop how
(15:44):
damage because you're divorced.
I had to let this mind be in me,which is also in Christ Jesus
and whatever he said about me.
That was what I said about mebecause I believe that life and
death are in the power of the tongue.
So I am debt free.
God wants me blessed.
God wants me wealthy.
And I
just had to begin to change.
That tone change that self talk check.
(16:06):
God wants my children blessed.
God wants the third and fourthgeneration to have something.
He wants you to leave aninheritance for your children.
You know, I had to believe itand then start living it out.
and that's, I think how I function now,
but I really had to lean into theLord in those early days of a total
(16:28):
new life that I hadn't planned.
Joy Hunt (16:30):
Yeah, I think you hit something there with those things that we tell
ourselves and like affirmations andthings like that can have a funny place
in the church space sometimes becausewe are not like prosperity gospel here.
We are not, you know, Oh, just becauseI said it, but it matters what I say
to myself because I'm going to actbased on what I think about myself.
Shakema Wilson (16:54):
Right.
Joy Hunt (16:55):
sometimes I have to go back and say, speak God's truth back over my
life until I start to think that way,be transformed by renewing your mind.
Right.
and sometimes in a practical sense,what that is going to look like
is speaking those things that thesecular world would call affirmations.
Right.
And we're really, we're inour case, we're affirming.
what God said about us.
(17:17):
We're affirming what God's best is for us.
whether it's that dream that he'sspoken into our hearts or whether
it's something that he's called us to,or whether it's, just his scriptural
truths about our identity, that we haveto change that pattern in our brain
Shakema Wilson (17:32):
For
Joy Hunt (17:32):
that changes the pattern in our heart.
And that changes, literallychanges our behavior.
If you don't think it's possible.
If you don't think it's even inyour, like, if the box doesn't even
exist for it to be possible, right?
Then you're not going to act insuch a way as to follow God's
lead in that part of your life.
Shakema Wilson (17:51):
Absolutely.
Joy Hunt (17:52):
So how has becoming debt free changed the way that you
approach ministry and the way that yourespond to God's leading in ministry?
Shakema Wilson (18:02):
I think becoming debt free now allows me to move
freely in ministry because I cantravel, I can go places and not worry
about how am I going to pay for it.
I don't have to miss anopportunity because I don't
have the money to do something.
I know how to save up.
It's not like I justrandomly go out and just.
(18:24):
But I'm asking God, I'mreally checking with the Lord.
Is this something that youwant me to be a part of?
And if it is, give me the
strategy on how to save, how to do it.
When I go places I cangive into the kingdom.
I'm not just barely making it there, but
I can get there and have somethingto sew into that ministry
that's feeding me.
(18:45):
the Lord spoke to me.
I travel minister quite a, quite often.
I don't travel.
All that far when I have to drive.
So within my drivingareas, a couple of states.
So the Lord spoke to me years ago andhe said, Shakima, when you go to places,
if they give you a love offering,I want you to put that money up.
Don't spend it.
I want you to put it up because you'regoing to have to go places multiple times.
(19:09):
So I don't ever ask for anhonorarium for people to bring me in.
You want me to come praise God.
I'm happy to share the word of God.
If you want to bless me,that's perfectly fine.
I appreciate that as well.
But the Lord had alreadyplanned for me to travel.
So he says, if they give you a loveoffering, then you take that you tie and
then you put the remainder in your accountbecause you might have to travel again.
(19:32):
So that money is sittingand it accrues interest.
And, It allows me to go fromplace to place to place.
And I'm not taxing the host church whowants me to come in where you got to
buy my plane ticket and that you gotto get my rental car and you got to
meet me at the airport in a Bentley.
And I need to have, you know, I needa driver and all this other stuff.
(19:53):
I'm a five star, six star hotel.
You know, I'm just a regularperson who believes that the Lord
wants me to preach the gospel.
He provides a way for me
to do that.
And so I never want to be aburden to people that he wants
me to go and share with again, ifthey want to bless me, perfect.
If they die, never go thinking,Oh my God, I wonder what they're
(20:14):
going to bless me with today.
Because I'm like, when you are, when youdepth, when I'm, Because I'm debt free.
I always believe that God has takencare of me before I even go a place.
Wherever I go, the Bible says, whereverthe sole of your foot tread, right?
So I believe that wherever I go,I have dominion in that area.
I don't worry about,
Joy Hunt (20:35):
Okay.
Shakema Wilson (20:38):
about finances because God's taken care of it and he's
shown me how to do it if I need to.
And I never want people, evenin my ministry now, I don't
regularly take up offerings.
We meet every week.
It's my time.
I give it for free.
If people want to bless me fine.
That's not the general.
I have two people that bless meevery single month with something and
(21:00):
I'm thankful for that.
But there's a whole lot ofother people that just come and
that, Hey, listen, that's finebecause God's going to take care.
But I never want the, people tofeel like I'm pressing on their
neck for them to give because Ineed their money to pay my bills.
I have a job
that is.
I'm bi vocational, so I work a secular joband I do this out of the love for the lord
(21:25):
that's in my heart, not for the money.
So anytime, money comes up, I'm veryleery because I never want people
who might be in my situation, the
situation I was in, struggling, feelinglike they got, oh god, now I gotta,
what, what can I not pay so I can givesomething into this cause or Pastor's
asking for an offering so I guess wegonna have to be a little lean over
(21:46):
here I just don't want any of that.
So I try to teach Uh, responsiblemoney management, biblical money
management, forget responsible,biblical money management.
So that people don't haveto feel that way either.
Joy Hunt (21:58):
Mm-hmm . what I love about that is that God has put you, positioned you
financially in a place to be able to servepeople that just like you couldn't cover
that first financial peace class right.
but he's positioned you for that,to be able to serve people in
dealing with those situations.
(22:19):
and at the same time, because you havebeen obedient and in having yourself
be in a healthy financial place,you're able to kind of so forward
with every one of those opportunitiesand you're able to, you know, like, I
think none of us would have a problemwith the speakers that go that have to
have a speaker fee, but you have theflexibility to not need that to live on
(22:43):
because you have your other job, but alsobecause you've got this mess cleaned up.
Shakema Wilson (22:47):
Right.
Joy Hunt (22:48):
Yeah.
so then as, someone who teachesothers, like you just said about,
you know, biblical financialmanagement, What would you say is the
biggest obstacle people face when itcomes to handling money God's way?
Shakema Wilson (23:01):
I think it's a mindset.
most people can't see themselvesdebt free or they don't see
themselves the way that God sees us.
Right?
we don't see ourselves as jointheirs with Jesus Christ, but
that's what the Bible says.
So he didn't lack for anything,we shouldn't lack for anything.
Comparison is also another problem.
We see somebody with a new car,we think we gotta get a new car.
(23:23):
Your car that you have currently,is paid off, you don't owe anybody.
you see your neighbor has something new.
So now you got to go get something new.
And now you are stuck under the weightof the interest and all of the payments
you can't make.
So comparison for sure.
I want this, I don't haveenough patience to wait, save.
(23:44):
To put aside or, believe the Lordthat somebody wants to bless us.
I think we have to do our part.
God's going to do his part.
We do our part, but God never callsus to look at what our neighbor has.
It says, don't come atwhat your neighbor has.
And so we cover it andthen we get in problems.
And then we want God to come to our rescuebecause he is our hero and he does rescue
us, but not from making poor decisions.
(24:06):
And then we blame him because weput ourself in a bad decision.
In the cyclical, kind of thing, like,well, God didn't want me to be blessed.
Yes, he did.
He just didn't want you to do it that way.
So it is definitely a mindset, a mindsetshift that needs to happen to the majority
of people on how to deal with yourmoney, the way God says to deal with it.
Joy Hunt (24:28):
Yeah, so how do we then, deal with shifting that mindset?
Shakema Wilson (24:32):
I think when you.
For Christians, right?
My son, it's always a big joke aroundhere when we talk about the brethren.
I remember preaching one timeand, and I was talking about
the brethren and my, you know,
my sister is always here withme and my son was like, mom,
don't you mean the sistering?
Joy Hunt (24:48):
deal with that?
Shakema Wilson (24:50):
the brethren, it, the Bible is for us.
It's for the people whoclaim that we are Christians.
We believe in Jesus.
We walk like Jesus.
So if the Bible is for us and Godhas clearly marked out biblically,
what Biblical finances should
look like, should we not then apply thatto our lives, no matter what anybody
(25:12):
else has to say about it, if we applythe biblical principles, the way that
the Lord set it out, then we would allbe in the best position to be able to do
not just for our family, but for others.
And so.
I think it's really getting a revelation
about what the, what theword says about finances.
(25:34):
And most people glance over that partbecause we get hung up on the tithe.
Oh, I don't have 10%.
Well, if God trusts God for the 90, right,that 10 percent ain't going to do nothing.
It don't matter what,
got all this debt anyway, youain't even gonna miss that.
So just.
God for the 90, but we holdon so much to that 10%.
(25:56):
If you believe in biblical tithing, I do.
I know people say that'sold covenant, whatever.
God's going to give me credit for it.
Cause I do it anyway.
and, and offer, but I'm
at a position now, but why am I fightingover that 10 when God has freely given
me the 90 to use is self management.
It's it's family management.
It's the husband trying to be the headof the household and he's bad with money.
(26:19):
And
so because he has to be the headof the household, wife is so much
better at it, but he can't lose
his head of the household statusso he won't let her manage it.
So it's all of these differentdynamics that have no business
in, in a kingdom household at all.
Who's better?
Let them do it.
We all sit down and talk about it,and we, we manage it the way God does.
(26:41):
So,
Joy Hunt (26:42):
Delegation, like any good manager would know, right?
Shakema Wilson (26:45):
Saying we're a budget committee of one.
Joy Hunt (26:47):
Gotta go have a budget committee meeting with myself.
Shakema Wilson (26:49):
That's right.
And I'm gonna argue justfor the sake of arguing.
Joy Hunt (26:53):
There you go.
So what practical advice wouldyou give to pastors who want to be
able to disciple their people inbiblical financial principles and
be more effective in that area?
Shakema Wilson (27:04):
So I think, the truth of the matter is
your opinion is not necessary.
Your experience could be helpful.
But your
opinion is not necessary.
God has marked it out clearly in his wordhow we're supposed to manage our finances.
(27:24):
And so when you stick to thatpractical teaching, because it's
very practical, it's not impractical,it's not beyond the reach of people.
We can get it, but we wantto insert our opinions on how
we think it should be done.
No, no, no.
We're going to go ahead and just.
Teach it the way that it's,it's laid out here for us.
If you
(27:44):
have an experience that can speak tosomething and we can see that there's been
fruit from that, that's helpful, but itis not necessary that you insert yourself
into a place that God clearly has already,if he gave us the word and, and the word
can do so many things, what more words canyou, can yours add Just teach this, right?
Just teach, just teach the principles,but then also compassion for people
(28:09):
because it took me six yearsto get that aha moment.
I was doing the, I was doing thebudget, but I wasn't, I wasn't
gazelle intense for six years.
So we need compassion.
You keep teaching.
Do not become a crutch for people.
Don't always get people out.
No, give them solutions or a problem.
(28:30):
Help them problem solve on how todo it because the church becomes
Jesus when we always pay inthe light bill and all of that.
We not Jesus.
Jesus says we don't.
We gonna help you but we gonnahelp you biblically to get yourself
in a better financial position.
Joy Hunt (28:47):
that's so good the way that you said that I was thinking
actually have a conversation I hadin the airport with a pastor in
an island in the Caribbean, of whichname I do not remember at the moment.
But he was telling me that the problemthey have in their church because this is
what happens when you wear a A money shirtwith a Bible verse on it in the airport.
He was telling the problem that theyhave in their church is that the culture
(29:11):
expects the church to Solve all theproblems and while there isn't a place
for that that's not good for people,
Shakema Wilson (29:18):
For
sure.
Joy Hunt (29:19):
and so then how do you Meet the need when there's a real need but then
also build a bridge to say, okay Likewe're not going to enable you to stay
where you are because that's not healthy
Shakema Wilson (29:33):
Right.
Joy Hunt (29:33):
There's a difference between helping somebody out who just lost
their job or helping somebody out who'sgoing through, you know, a medical
crisis or something and continuing toenable, enable them on a long term.
And so, and then he said, what'shappened in that culture is they've
swung too far to that one side, right?
And then some churches are too far tothe other side or just don't have the
(29:54):
resources on the other side, which isa, you know, a different situation.
And so, but the best gift wecan give our people financially.
Is to be able to walk them through,
Shakema Wilson (30:05):
Yes.
Joy Hunt (30:06):
like, let's not stay there.
Shakema Wilson (30:08):
Right.
And I think, you know, when you findyourself working in tandem with the
Holy Spirit, that's exactly what it'slike as a pastor when you walk in beside
Families, but we're help not manipulation.
We only going to help you.
If you do this, we're goingto help you, but these are the
requirements to get this help.
I need you to attend this meeting.
(30:28):
I need you to
do whatever the process is,but we sometimes in our.
Ambition to help inour exuberance to help.
we take away the requirements or we take
away the additional things to help.
We want to immediately meet the need.
And once you do that, people are gone.
(30:49):
People gone until thenext time they need it.
It's almost like a crackheadtrying to get a hit.
I'm good after you give methat, but I'm, yeah, I'm good.
As soon as that craving again, orI've spent wrong, or this thing
comes due again, we're back againto the church to help one more time.
And so you've drained yourresources dry because most people
are hand out and nobody's giving.
(31:11):
Hands up.
Look, I can't, I can'tbe down here with you.
This is not my life, but I've beenthere before and I can show you how to
get out of this place if you want that.
Joy Hunt (31:21):
And I'm not going to help you stay there, either.
Shakema Wilson (31:23):
Sure.
That's not what I'm here for.
Joy Hunt (31:25):
Yeah, so I've known some churches who have, you know, if people
get assistance with certain things,depending on the situation, right?
You know, but that some churches willsay, okay, like we can help you with
this, but you need to go through financialpeace, or we can help you this, but you
need to meet with a coach and here'ssomebody that we work with, right?
Or different kinds of things so thatwe're not helping you stay where we are.
(31:47):
We actually are giving you that step up.
So a lot of our pastors, you know, We'rewanting to disciple our people, but
we're also, you know, a lot of pastorsare struggling with their own finances.
So what encouragement would you give tosomebody who just feels overwhelmed by
their own financial situation right now?
Shakema Wilson (32:07):
I think you just have to sit down and have that meeting.
That meeting is important, whether you'remeeting with your spouse or meeting with
yourself or meeting with somebody toreally get a handle on what it looks like.
It can be very scary to sit down andlook at those numbers, but once you
can then formulate a plan.
(32:28):
If I know what's in front of me,now I know how to deal with it.
Just putting your head underthe covers is not working.
Clearly it's not worked before.
So now let's be really courageous andlook at and be truthful and honest.
Put everything out there.
every single thing out there.
And then you begin to tackleit one bite at a time.
(32:51):
You may not have somebody giveto the church thousands and
thousands or give to you personally
thousands and thousands, but the Lordhas a way to get out of the places that
we're in debt is no, is no different.
He wants us out of this.
He shows us how.
So I say, you gotta takea real good look at it.
And if you're not capable, Ask for help.
(33:12):
Yes, you're the lead senior pastorof the third holy ghost denomination.
Amen.
But I need some help and that'swhere I think that ministry friends
are important find somebody Thatyou can sit down with that says hey,
listen, this is exactly where I am.
It's no judgment zone, but we'regonna You know, sometimes we got
to go through the process before we
(33:33):
can take the people through the process.
That's where yourexperience becomes helpful.
Hey, I did this too.
I was at a point in my life thatpeople can understand to know that,
hey, you didn't have it all together,but you do need to get it together.
Joy Hunt (33:49):
Yeah, and it's a process.
And.
I think sometimes we're afraidto talk about it until we've
arrived at a certain point.
And I think there's a value insaying, this is where I'm growing.
Shakema Wilson (34:02):
Sure.
Joy Hunt (34:03):
or like you don't have to have arrived at being debt free to
be living that lifestyle, you know,and to be like, I'm making progress.
I'm feeling traction.
I am, I remember tellingpeople I felt fine.
I didn't feel financial peace afterpaying off my last student loan.
I felt financial peace a month into,Learning how to do a budget and working
(34:26):
a plan and realizing it's actuallyworking like I'm actually like, Oh,
I'm walking in obedience and I'mdoing what I'm supposed to be doing
and I'm actually getting traction.
And so I didn't have to wait tillthree and a half years later when
I was done cleaning up that big oldmess I had, even the people around me
started benefiting from my journey.
in those first couple months,because I wouldn't shut up about it.
Shakema Wilson (34:49):
Well, here I am 15 years later
Joy Hunt (34:50):
You're in good company.
Shakema Wilson (34:52):
it's 15 years and it's made the biggest impact in my life
because I don't feel like I'm behind.
I don't feel like everybody else isdoing things that I can't, but I do
understand being the head leader.
it can be a little bit naturallyor humanly shameful that you don't
have all the answers, but And heleads and guides us into all truth.
(35:16):
Holy spirit does.
So I think once we get over ourselvesand over people and what they're
going to think, then we can, youknow, we can move forward in things.
There
were people who talkedabout me real bad, real bad.
I remember, I rememberit was one Christmas.
This was, Oh, several, several years ago.
And there was a particularfamily that needed some help,
(35:39):
but they always needed help.
And I remember always needing help, butI was talking to another couple and the
husband, not even the wife, the husbandsaid, Shakima, He said, you came a long
way, girl.
He said, I would throw myhead in with you anytime.
He said, because you'regoing to go after it.
You're going to get it.
You're going to, you'regoing to make it happen.
He said, I've seen you digyourself out of some problems.
(36:01):
And he said, yeah, I'll go inwith you anytime, but you're
constantly getting people out.
And I'm just not at that point anymore.
I'm not at the point of shame.
If I, if I have an issue, I knowhow to say, Hey, I got an issue.
Now you can't trust everybody with that.
You just
have to have.
a solid group, a solid person, one or two.
(36:22):
The Bible says that there'ssafety in a multitude of counsel.
Sometimes you do need,you need the counsel.
We always trying to provideit, but sometimes we need it.
Don't allow yourself not to getministry just because you're trying to
feed the ministry or do the ministry.
You need ministry too.
Joy Hunt (36:39):
yes, as pastors, we need friends who are in ministry.
one of those first criticalrelationships with me was meeting
with a Christian therapist
Shakema Wilson (36:46):
Yeah.
Joy Hunt (36:47):
and it was a game changer and you know what, I saw her last
week, and because it's not, I don'tjust get my oil changed on my car
when my car is going to break down,I keep maintaining it long after that
and, but I can, I feel like aspastors, it can be hard to find
some of those, Hard to know where weshould take some of those questions
or hard to find those relationships.
(37:08):
And, you know, as you're, you'resharing, I was thinking, you know, I'm
not ashamed if I have to go ask themechanic to work on my car or if I have
to ask people for it, can you recommenda few good mechanics around here?
But we feel that way when we need helpwith something that's on the inside.
Shakema Wilson (37:26):
Oh, For sure.
Because of the judgment, we alwaysthink that there's going to be
judgment and there might be, butthen those are not your people.
But I think as pastors,we have to Ask for help.
And we also have to be safe spaces.
If I've gone through and I know what it'slike, then I have to now offer myself as a
(37:46):
safe space for the next person who'scoming to say, Hey, I can't share
this with my congregation, but Ineed somebody to share this with.
So I'm gonna get what I need,but I'm also going to give what?
I needed when I needed it.
Joy Hunt (38:01):
Yes, yes, yeah, for sure.
I love that.
so, as we get ready to close here,Shakima, can you share just where people
can connect with you online and learnmore about the work that you're doing?
Shakema Wilson (38:11):
Absolutely.
So you can follow me onFacebook, Shakima Wilson.
I'm the lady with the microphonein her mouth, really big.
I'm also on YouTube, one mom, twogirls, two boys, eight in all.
Those are all numbers.
Most people get confusedabout the eight is
myself, my four children, thefather, son, and Holy spirit.
(38:31):
You can also be on Instagramas Shakima underscore Wilson
and Tik TOK as Shakima one mom.
So I'm out here doing all the things.
I do a lot of things, mostlymoney and momming and Jesus.
We do that first
Joy Hunt (38:47):
Well, that just plays into all the other ones, right?
Shakema Wilson (38:50):
thing.
Joy Hunt (38:51):
That's right.
Well, Shakima, thank you somuch for your time today.
And I just, I knew when we gotintroduced, and then when we had our first
conversation, that we were gonna click.
And so this has been areally fun time with you.
Shakema Wilson (39:05):
so much.
Joy Hunt (39:09):
Thank you for listening to today's show.
I'd love to know what you think about it.
You can leave a comment on the shownotes at pastorsandmoney.com/podcast,
or email me at joy@pastorsandmoney.com.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, share, and leave a review.
This helps us to get the wordout and invite more people
into these conversations.
(39:30):
If you'd like to connect, you canfind me on Instagram or Facebook.
@ PastorsandMoney.
I can't wait to talk again soon.
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