Multitalented and multipassionate with Orla Fitzmaurice

Episode Transcript
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Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show
that gives you a virtual seatat the bar for the real
conversations that happenbetween entrepreneurs.
I'm interviewing all kinds ofbusiness owners, from those just
a few years into freelancing toCEOs helming nine figure
companies.
If you've ever worried thateveryone else just seems to get
it and you're missing somethingor messing things up, this show

(00:24):
is for you.
I'm your host, Angie Coley, andlet's get to it.
Hey and welcome back toPermission to Kick Ass.
With me today is my new friend,Orla Fitzmaurice.
Say hi, Hi.
You know what?

Orla Fitzmaurice (00:43):
Before I get down the rabbit hole, just tell
us a little bit about what youdo and what brought you here
today.
So I am a web and graphicdesigner.
I am living in Ireland and Iconcentrate mainly on helping
women to create sustainableself-employment so not
self-employment that's going toburn them out, self-employment
that feels like it's going tonourish them.
And a lot of my work is donethrough live one-to-one sessions

(01:03):
, so they're seeing the workbeing done live on my computer
as it's happening.

Is that the design work you're doing?
Live with them on the computer?
Yeah, that's really cool.

Is that?

intimidating to like have somebody watch over
your show.
I can't have people watch mewrite.

No, not at all .
You think it would be.
But it's funny because I'vebeen a custom web designer for,
I think, like 20, 25 years atthis stage and, as technology
has progressed and all the restof it, I guess I've been doing
it so long that it's morenatural to me.
And it was post my diagnosiswith ADHD as well.
A couple of years ago I foundthe big, long projects.
It just it had been draining me.

(01:41):
I hadn't realized, and that waswhen I kind of decided to
change it.
And it turns out I thrive inchaos, like so I really thrive
in the chaos.
And you know, like when you'redesigning with someone in front
of you and you see their facialexpressions and you know,
because a lot of people,especially in Ireland now I
don't know if this is a culturalthing too they'll say what you
know.
They'll say one thing to pleaseyou, but you can see it in
their face.

(02:01):
They're like that's not theright direction, let's amend
here, and then you can see itwhen they're like oh my God,
that's exactly what I wanted.
So it's really exciting andit's fun and it's really
interactive and it's actually alot lighter, I find, and the
work is done way faster.

Ooh, that's such an interesting approach, and I
think for a couple of reasons,because for I think there's a
lot of ADHD listeners to thisshow just by nature of who I am,
but one we tend to be hyperaware of other people's like
energetic states, facialexpressions, changes in, like
shift in posture, stuff likethat we're hyper aware.

(02:37):
And then there's also thisoverthinking thing that I think
tends to happen when you go intothe cave to create 100%.
Yeah, I wouldn't say that I'vegotten to the live creation
point because, like I said, Idon't like writing with people.
There's something about like myfingers just stopped working.
I can type upwards of like 70,80 words a minute, but if

(03:00):
somebody is watching me type ona screen like I cannot spell for
the life of me.
It's ridiculous.
I've learned that all of theprocesses that I used to use to
develop copy were just likeadding a whole bunch of
unnecessary steps, putting spacebetween me and the client and
then leaving me by myself tooverthink stuff and then be

(03:21):
completely overwhelmed when,like I'd get on a review meeting
with them, I could see theirfacial expressions.
I know something's wrong, but Idon't even begin to know how to
unpack it.
I think that's just such a coolapproach.

Yeah, it's really, really interesting and
it was funny because I did acourse coaching recently as well
and one guy compared it to he'sa musician and he compared it
to like when they do jazz orinstrumentation.
He's like it's like everybodyknows their own part and nobody
knows what the other person isgoing to do, but somehow when
they play together, it createssomething completely unique
every time and that's what itfeels like.

(03:52):
It's like I know the web designbit.
I know what it takes to getyour business in front of people
and the other person knowstheir business and they know who
they are and they know whatthey want it to be.
But no matter how many briefmeetings you take and no matter
how many, how well you spec outthat design, you can't know the
business.
Like your client knows thebusiness and then doing it

(04:15):
together like it creates thissomething that I could I could
never create on my own, to behonest.
Like I think I can do somethingreally great, but it's still my
design perspective beingoverlaid, whereas here it's a
real blend and it does.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.

I love that too.
You know, I've been doingsomething experimental for the
and I'm about I'm literally justabout to formalize this into an
offer that goes on to my site,um, but I've been doing an
intensive with people.
That's basically the, the copyand marketing version of that,
and it stems a lot, actually alot, from the conversations on
the show.
I'd be listening to these showsto get the show notes down like

(04:47):
review, all of the audio chops,hi James editor, extraordinaire
for anybody that needs them.
And I'd just be going oh,brilliant one-liner, oh, this
needs to be the title.
Like.
I just hear you and all of mywonderful guests say such
wonderful things off the cuffand I started to get curious
like what if I use all of thesepodcast interview skills I've

(05:08):
developed, plus my years as astrategist, just like asking
people about their business andjust got people to talk through
their marketing so that I couldpull their words straight from
them and turn it into marketing.
And it happened like with aclient recently.
It was so much fun.
I showed her her website, likewe redid her website, and I

(05:30):
showed her one page and shelooks at one line and goes it's
that same thing we're reviewinglive on a call, she goes.
Who said that?
And I was like that's, that'syou.
And she goes yeah, I sound sosmart.
And I was like you are thatsmart?
You're brilliant.
I really love being able toshow you that you already had
the words to say what you neededto say.

Somebody just needed to pull it out of you, so
I always find that as well,like, the words are always there
and but they're never the onesthat they'll write down.
When you give them the briefform or when you ask them to
describe it, they're never goingto say it.
It's the words when you'redoing something else and they're
thinking about something else,and then they just riff it off
and he was like that is it.
That's the secret sauce exactly?

I wonder you know this.
This just has me curious.
So, like we're gonna followthis shiny rabbit hole, do you
think it has anything to do withkind of being able to get into
a flow state a little bit easierwhen there's almost like an
audience or a collaborationgoing versus by yourself?

I think there is the case of that and being
able to get into flow flow state.
I can definitely get into aflow state on my own too, I mean
for sure like hyper focus in.
But there's something magicthat happens when I'm with
people, though, as well, andit's the reason why I actually
schedule all of my face-to-face,my Zoom type meetings, in the
afternoons, because it's kind ofmy lowest energy time.

(06:40):
Like I'm a morning person, I amlike a first thing, a lark I
have to anyway with two kids.
I did that even before that.
But in the afternoons, when myenergy dips, I find when I'm on
with people, it's just like Ilove talking to people, I love
chatting with people and findingout what they want and just
getting really into it.
So I find it like I just comeon and I think a lot of people

(07:02):
do where people, people,everybody is.
Yeah, most people are yeah,that's fantastic.

Well, how did you?
I mean, you said you've been inthis for a long time.
Did you always know you wantedto be a graphic designer?
Or did you fall into it?
How did that?

oh my god no, no, no, would you believe.
I wanted to do archaeology in aplace here called UCC and I was
kind of talked out of thatbecause it was like that might
not be the best career and I wasalways very malleable.
And so I was talked intoeconomics and finance and when I

(07:39):
tell anyone this they thinkit's freaking hilarious, because
I also have dyscalculia, so Ican't see or visualize or work
with numbers in any way, shapeor form.
But somehow I managed to get adegree in economics.

I thought I had a hard time with numbers, but when
I met another person whodescribed that to me and I just
went like, wow, I know, I don'thave dyslexia, but I know,
sometimes I transpose words andthen have a moment of like wait,
what was that?
No, that was a completelydifferent word I can't imagine
getting an economics degreegoing on.
Oh goodness, you're my hero.

I got past it.
Like.
I got through it Like I actuallyworked in finance as well for a
year or two after that, like,and it was the same thing, I got
through it because I got thelogic you know like so I was
always able to show the work andlike I would, like I was I'm
still, I'm like I takeridiculous amount of notes for
everything, and so I was likereally clear on like you could
see that I had done the work andso I always got the points for
work.
But the answers were alwayswrong and it used to drive my

(08:37):
boss in finance crazy.
He was like you've done it allperfectly.
What is wrong with this?

Oh, perfectly, what is wrong with this?
Oh goodness.
Yeah, I feel like as I'vegotten older, I used to be like
a stickler for for details, forgrammar.
I was that sorry guys, don't atme, I was that asshole that was
online correcting people'sgrammar, and since then I've had
the fortune to meet lovelypeople with dyscalculia,
dyslexia, and I've come tounderstand that, like guys, if
somebody can't spell, ifsomebody can't math, that has
nothing to do with theirintellect, it has nothing to do

(09:09):
with their value as a person.
Like, maybe, stop being ajackass, all right?

uh, random rant over yeah, my partner's
still a little particular forthe for for grammar, and so he
pulls me up at times, but then Ihave pushed back the whole time
because I'm like sometimes when, when I write a certain way,
it's because there's a reasonfor the need for that expression
, and I don't care about thatcomma, it's not right for me.

Exactly.
Oh, I had that experience lastyear when I had a friend who
wanted to help with editing andproofreading my book and a lot
of the changes that she madewhich I mean like I don't fault
her for this, this is her style,right but was to formalize
things a little bit more, makeit a little bit more
professional.
And I was like no, I chosethose words with intent.

(09:52):
Every single word that made itonto that page is intentional
and like, yeah, a little bitwordy, we could probably afford
to cut it down a little bit, butlike, change the language?
I don't think so.
Said with all of the love Hi,you're out there and you know
who you are.
I adore you.

Oh look, I'm the same Like when Phil, like he
, I ask him to read over.
Sometimes, not every time,sometimes I'm like I don't need
an editor today, thank you.
Sometimes I ask him to readover and I appreciate it and I
keep some of them, but others,like no, that just changes the
feel I want from this and it'sjust like all of art, I guess.
But writing is just another art.

Some of it has to have creative expression,
exactly exactly, and it's thatindividual expression that
actually makes it make adifference, that helps people
really resonate with something.
I want to go back for a secondto archaeology, like how deep
into that did you go?
Was it just an interest, orhave you always kind of kept up
with it, even though you didn'tdo it formally?

No, I haven't.
I loved history.
I loved history and it was mytop subject in school, so I'd
got top, top marks when I cameout from.
For us it's the leaving cert.
So that's why I had assumedthat I would like to do that.
But no, I didn't keep up withit.
I went through the economicsscience.
I loved the economics.
You know again, there's greatlogic in economics.
And now it's funny, for a good,I think 20 years maybe, maybe

(11:12):
less I was like why did I dothat?
Like I knew that that was notsomething I wanted to do, it was
a crazy thing to do, and I justallowed myself to just be like,
yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll go thedirection of the right thing to
do.
But now I'm finding myselfgoing back more and more into
economics.
As I become more, I guess,socially aware and, I suppose,

(11:33):
socially active, I find myselfleaning back more and more on my
economics degree and I'menjoying it more, but like, yeah
, yeah.
So it's just interesting to seehow things can come full circle
.
Things that you think you mightnever use come back.

Oh, absolutely For the longest time after I fell
into the world of copywritingand marketing strategy, I
wouldn't tell people about mymaster's degree and I don't say
that to be fancy schmancy oranything like that.
But I do have a master's degreeand it is a it's a weird hybrid
creative business degree fromCarnegie Mellon and it was meant

(12:07):
to be for the entertainmentindustry.
Like the gap between bridgingthe gap between the people who
would go it's called showbusiness, not show art and the
people that are you don't have abusiness without the art, right
?
So they needed somebody tounderstand the value of both the
business perspective and theand the creative side.
I loved that degree and also Iwas telling another guest just a

(12:28):
couple of weeks ago I beatmyself up for the longest time
because I got good marks, butthere were a lot of things that
just didn't make sense to meuntil I went out and started a
business of my own.
Like my brain just doesn't seemto be able to process high
concept stuff without liketangible examples from my own
life.

Yes, definitely, I totally agree with
that as well.
I'm the exact same.

Oh goodness, you know, the reason that I took it
back to archaeology and I gotreally curious about that was
like I wonder if there's aparallel and this is total
creative brain at play betweenlike you're helping people dig
up their vision for theirwebsite and like it's all fit
together all along.

Yeah, well, it's funny I say that I didn't
keep up with archeology, but Ihad a project that I started
like before I even was doing webdesign as as a service and that
was called cottageology and itwas all around like preserving
and restoring Irish cottages,because there's no protection
for cottages in Ireland.

(13:29):
They would be our traditionalvernacular architecture, as in.
They would be the types ofdwellings that would have been
made by hands of the localpeople, you know, with the
materials that are availablelocally to them, but there's no
protections for them.
So I had started that a longtime ago, but there's no
protections for them.
So I had started that a longtime ago and one particular
project that I took on with itwas going back and finding all

(13:49):
of the old streets that were theold city cottages in Dublin,
the Dublin City Cottages Projectand it was so fascinating and
there was a kind of anarchaeological element to it
because, of course, a lot ofthem have been replaced with,
like, high rises and all therest of it.
So it was like finding imagesof the old streets or finding
references to them on old booksand then overlaying maps on top

(14:09):
of each other to show how thearea had progressed.
So that was utterly fascinating.
So I said, you know, I said Ididn't, but actually all these
things weave in and out over theyears.

Yeah, I mean like, exactly like I said, with
getting that degree, I've cometo realize since then right, so
I thought I was going to beShonda.
I was going to be Shonda Rhimes.
I wanted to create worlds andrun my own shows and I love
television and film andeverything about it.
And then I got laid off by theOprah Winfrey Network.
Sorry, Oprah, We've got beef,but you can fix it by putting me

(14:41):
on your favorite things list.
I fell into copywriting when Icouldn't get another job in TV
development and it's been 14years and I found that I had a
passion and a skill for that andit's been really fun.
And it took me until a coupleyears ago to realize like, oh,
creative business degree,copywriting all the graphic

(15:03):
designers and the photographersthat I know, all of the artists
like creative business degree.
It's not just I can't help it,guys, Sometimes I'm slow.

I think we all are and nothing makes sense
until we look back.
You know it doesn't make sense.
At the time, often like I feltlike my whole career has been
like this weird, like jumpingaround the place to all these
different things and all out ofcontrol, and there's something
wrong with me and all the restof that.
And it's like now I'm lookingback and like, no, that
economics and finance degree isawesome.
Why were you so down on that?

Every step I took gave me a different piece of the
puzzle.
And when I take time to lookback and I think that's the key
when I take time to look back,I've got a much clearer vision,
because more of the pieces arenow into place.
Or I think we get into dangerand I think I've mentioned this
on the show before isentrepreneurship is very forward
looking, right, like you've gotthe vision.
You got a reverse engineer fromthe 10 year plan, the five year

(15:57):
plan, to where you are today,so that you know what you're
doing next.
But while we're focused onthose future steps and
everything we got to do today tobring about that future, we
forget to turn around and lookbehind us and go oh, look at how
far I've come, right.
And look at all the people thatare coming up after me who are
aiming for me.
You know, not in a take you,not in a take you out sense, but

(16:19):
like they're aiming for mebecause I'm their model of who
they want to be, while I'mlooking at this other person
over here and going I'll neverbe there, they're looking at me
like that.
I don't know.
To me that's just a greatreminder from time to time to go
.

I actually run this course as well on CBT for
adult ADHD with thepsychotherapist and that is the
one thing that fascinates mewith every person on the course.
Right, it starts like it's aneight week long course and it
starts at the start and it'slike everyone is so down about

(16:51):
themselves and it's so.
It's all so hard and all thatyou know yourself not that
people not having been diagnosedyet or very recently diagnosed,
all in adulthood, so carryingall that baggage and if I had
only known when I was youngerand they'd be like my life is
such a mess.
And if I had only known andhonestly, by the nearly, by the
end, of course, every single oneof them will have unfolded like
a flower and they have the mostincredible experiences.
I mean like, oh yes, I was anastronaut for NASA and they'll

(17:15):
be like my life is a mess andI've wasted it all and you sit
in there going your life isincredible.
Look at all these strands,every single one of them.
I don't think there's oneperson I've met on that course
over.
I don't know.
We've done it for a good fewyears now.
That hasn't fascinated me andthey're just fished and they
can't see it themselves.

Exactly.
This is yet another reason whyI love having these
conversations, like both thepodcast conversations and the
work.
The new work that I've beendoing with the clients is, um I
call it like, at the risk ofbeing overly poetic I get to be
this awesomeness mirror, justreflecting your own awesomeness
right back at you and being like, do you not see how fucking

(17:57):
cool you are?
I see it.
Let me show you, um, and I likeI've I've teared up on some of
these episodes've I've teared upon some of these episodes.
I've teared up on some of thesecalls just going like it feels
good to make people feel good.
So trolls, internet trolls outthere like maybe try going out
and making people feel goodinstead of feel like shit, that
there's a strategy for you,absolutely absolutely.

I just that fascinates me.
It's like why, with what I meanclearly, the not just trolls,
but people who you know sayhackers, with the amount of
intelligence they have and withthe amount of social awareness
they have, because they do to acertain degree to manipulate in
that way, oh my gosh, the worldneeds you to do good things.
Please bring your skills to dogood things to do good things.

Well, yeah, and we won't get into the pathology of
that.
Some people just live to createchaos and destruction, and I
guess that's part of life'sbalance.
Right, we can't all think thesame or operate the same, but
Some people do.

but I think, like the hurt people hurt people
Like I just there's no badperson, you know so there's just
somebody who has an experiencethat led them here, but they can
change that, you know.
Know, like I, definitely likehave this whole thing about like
this invisible minds thing,like where you know so many of
these minds in this world, likeevery I think every single
person has such unlimitedpotential, like there's a spark

(19:13):
of genius in every single person, including the people who do
bad.
It's just they've had badexperience or they've been
funneled in the wrong direction,and we have so many people
working crappy ass jobs thatcould do incredible things, but
the world's just not built tooptimize for them, for a good
environment for humans.
It really isn't, and so it's nosurprise when we get people

(19:34):
doing things that are way offcenter like that.

Yeah, oh God, it was amazing.
Like I'm not going to go toodown the road into politics, but
I do remember reading this onestory a while back that was
inspiring.
I think it was during thepandemic or something like that.
A lot of the inmates in oneparticular prison were able to
bank extra money, for whateverreason, and because they're no
longer competing for resources,because some people have more

(19:58):
money than others, everybody canafford to live.
The crime rate inside theprison went down, like the
violence, the theft, anythinglike that, and I was like it's
so much.
It's interesting to me how thegreed kind of plays a role in
this.
Like gosh, we're going, we'regoing deep into it now.
But like this, this tendency tohoard everything and guard it

(20:21):
against theft, versus thisgenerosity and making sure
everybody has enough, which isactually the crime deterrent and
the lessener absolutely.

And it's not that we always want to be
looking back, because I don't.
I mean, I think like obviouslythings are so much better now.
You know like objectivelythings are better.
But like when I think back tothe cottages, for example, like
vernacular architecture inIreland back in back in the day
and there was a lot of thingswrong in Ireland back then don't
I want to paint a rosy picture,but when you needed a house,

(20:53):
your community came together andeveryone worked together to
build your house.
When you're at the stage whereyou needed a home and your
neighbors came and they broughtwhat they had and then you would
go and you would build thehouse for their child when it
came their time.
And now we have people justhoarding houses.
You know, like when did we turnhouses into investments?
And I'm not saying that to giveout about the people who invest

(21:13):
in them, but to give out aboutthe systems that facilitate a
home being a source of passiveincome.
It should never be their homes.
There's so many people homelessLike so these just a society.
There's just a lot gone awry insociety.

Like way far sideways.
Absolutely agree with you onthat score.
I'm not going to go down thatpath.
I can race on that for days.
Okay, so we're going to go allthe way back to the beginning.
You told me that you've beendoing this for over 20 years now
this graphic design right?
What was that progression likefor you building the business,
Like, I know that that's kind ofa high level question, but,

(21:53):
like the learning curve, how didyou get from beginner to now?

oh, you know, I guess like how most people get
into um, graphic design, Iwould say so I had a long path
before that, even from theeconomics and finance and the
like.
So I went through a fewdifferent things.
I ended up working as anarchitectural technician for a
few years.
I mean, I moved through so manydifferent paths before I got
here.
But it was setting up a companywith a friend of mine.
Oh my gosh, what is the name?

(22:21):
Oh, buyers Broker.
Yeah, it's like that long ago.
Yeah, it's like still one of mybest friends.
We set up this company, buyersBroker.
We needed a website, likewebsites back then cost a
fortune.
It was all custom HTML, justplain vanilla HTML and CSS, and
I was like I need this website.
So I was like I bet I canfigure this out.

(22:42):
I'm just going to go figure itout.
And in the process of figuringit out, a couple of other people
needed websites.
So I started just helping themout and this was great fun.
So it just progressed fromthere and I mean, over the years
I did add on, I did like aninteractive media course, which
I loved.
So that introduced me to a lotof the different elements.
Then like a full year longinteractive media and then a
couple of years after that I didlike a post graduate year long

(23:08):
course again on innovationmanagement.
Business innovation managementyeah, business innovation
management, that's right and soit's just.
It's been a progression alongthe way and just continuous
learning, continuous moving,which you have to do in any
design role but any technicaldesign role especially, you've
got no choice.
You know, like, even now youknow, I don't feel stressed

(23:30):
about AI coming on.
I'm like, bring it on, this isgreat.
Like this is something new thatI have to learn now and move it
in other direction and I use itjudiciously with the work that
I do.
So it's like, yeah, it gets usto where we need to get to
faster, because I mostly workwith people at the very early
stages, so they don't have bigbudgets, they don't have them.
I'd love if I could get acopywriter in for every single

(23:50):
project or like a brandingdesigner for every project, but
that's not at lower budgets.
It's not possible when peopleare getting started.
So it's just really, reallyinteresting to be able to use
all these tools, and that formeda big part of so.
A big part of it was that Ineeded to change how I worked.
Not only did I get thediagnosis with ADHD, I also had
become a mum, and so you knowlike maternity, when you're

(24:15):
self-employed and the soleincome earner for your family,
is no joke, no joke.
So everything needed to change,and so this technology was
advancing so much that I coulddo this work life Like, without

(24:35):
the advent of things like Canva,without the advent of tools
that move us along likeWordPress even was so fast.
But I moved into Squarespacebecause I had been a custom web
designer with WordPress for solong I can't remember.
But moving into other platformsallowed me to build fast,
iteratively and allowed me tohand control over to my clients,
which is what's made thispossible.

Oh, I love that perspective shift too, because
there is.
I mean, we all know thatthere's a lot of fear around AI
and how it could replace jobs,and I'm not here to downplay
that, I'm not here to say it'snot true.
It's like any other revolutionthat we've been through, from
when the automobile came aboutto, you know, when the internet
came about.
These are disruptive things.

(25:12):
These are disruptive thingsEven when the cell phones came
out and the smartphones.
Like I remember going in gradschool from having a Palm Pilot,
a little handheld schedulingdevice, to the first iterations
of smartphones and like how fastthings have progressed since
then.
Like talk about industries thathave gone under.
Those kinds of personalplanners just don't exist

(25:34):
anymore because we've alreadygot tools that handle all of
that Right.
So I don't mean to make lightof that, and I know I'm kind of
like all of the places I'msaying this, but there's
creative ways for these newproblems to be solved.
Like I know I hired a designerwho creates Canva graphics for
me.
All of the show notes that I dofor permission to kick ass are

(25:57):
Canva graphics.
That she designs the book covershe designed in Canva and it's
like so there's a space wherethese two things coincide,
because I have no design, I haveno desire to get into Canva and
figure out color palettes andmargins, and no, you need a pro.
And then, uh, for, for thethings that I can do myself or

(26:20):
that my team can do, likechanging out the numbers of an
episode and a picture and atitle, then yeah, let's do that.
Let's make this a lot easier,reduce some of the back and
forth, some of the grunt workthat you know like nobody wants
to change all of that stuff.
It's's such a yeah.

And it is like AI is coming for a lot of jobs,
like you said.
I don't want to downplay iteither.
It is scary, but it isinevitable.
In another way and again, justlike the housing thing, it is
down to our governments in orderto protect people here.
This is not an individualbottle, you know.
So it is down to thegovernments to rein a lot of

(26:57):
this in, to provide socialprotections for the people who
will be harmed by this, becausethere will be people, but
everybody has the choice to tryand move with it to.
No, I'm actually going to takeback choice.
We have no choice.
It's here.
There's no going back, you knowso, like all of these things,
but I find it exciting.

I think so too, yeah yeah, and like there's the
fear there and you can.
I was just talking to a clientabout this the other day.
I can't remember where I heardthe quote, so if you're
listening to this and you wantto write in and tell me where,
where this quote comes from, Iwould be grateful.
Um, the difference between fearand excitement is the breath,
and I believe that because I canfeel the same sensations in my

(27:35):
body when I'm terrified as I dowhen I'm getting ready to walk
out onto a stage and like I'mexcited to sing for people.
The breath, like it's all thesame stuff.
You're already familiar with itand I say that to say this, you
can reframe how you're feelingabout this by focusing on the
breath, by going okay, I hearyou.

(27:55):
This is scary and intimidating.
How could I make this work forme instead of what am I going to
do now?
Why is this happening?
Talk about a useless question.
Why is this happening?

Yeah, and I mean I have no doubt, like I
have no doubt, like it's comingfrom me.
I'm, I'm design, graphic design.
I mean it's already here for me.
It's already taking hugeswathes of what I do, but at the
end of the day there'ssomething again magic about
doing the live work.
That's face to face, that'speople to people, and no machine
can get that.
yet I don't think that's goingto come for a long time and

(28:25):
that's where I bring my magic,and my client brings their magic
, and there's no replacing thatright now, thankfully.

Thankfully, yeah Well, I mean like there's
there's plenty of templates andstuff like that out there, but
and maybe it's just me and myspectacular ability to find
ingenious ways to fuck things upright, be able to figure out

(28:52):
how to put it back, and I willspend hours raging at this
template, whereas working withsomebody like you live.
I go what did I do?
How do I put it back?
And you go take it over andwe're over it in 30 seconds.
Like I, will always be somebodythat prefers to work with
people as much as possible.

But you know, I'm a web designer and, honestly
, when it comes to like doing myown website, it is the thing I
hate doing the most in the world, because doing my own website
it is the thing I hate doing themost in the world, because
doing my own work it tends to beit's a whole other ballgame.
You know, when I'm my ownclient, I'm my worst client.
You know my website's alwaysthe last thing that gets done.
You know like I love doing thiswith other people, so like
there's so many elements todesign that we don't even think

(29:30):
about and that's part of it too,you know.
So it is always having somebodyelse give you that perspective,
take you out of your own head,even when it's for yourself,
it's really valuable.

Oh God, I've talked to so many people because
that's part of the work that Ido with that offer that I told
you about.
I always tell them welcome tothe Cobbler's Kids Club.
Like we're over here not wearingany damn shoes because we're
too busy making them foreverybody else.
And I even had my coach tell me.

(30:03):
You know I was feeling nervousat the beginning of this year
about making sales becausebefore I'd always been referral
based.
But, like a lot of folks, thisyear I've had to go out and
learn how to make high ticketsales on my own and it's been a
wonderful learning curve becausebefore I've had people tell me
I wasn't a salesperson.
Sorry to say I am a salespersonnow to those people that didn't
believe but whatever, I'm notthere yet, I'm all ears, girl.

I'm all ears because I'm not there yet.

Well, he taught me to embrace the imperfection and
like, in my case, awkward.
He asked me what's coming upwhen you have these sales calls?
And I said I just feel awkward.
I don't like promoting myselflike this.
I know that the service isvaluable, so it's not like an
insecurity thing.
I know that I'm doing somethingto help people, but I just
don't like talking about it.

(30:44):
And he goes can you lean intothe awkwardness?
And I was like maybe.
So I tried it on the very nextsales call where I just went to
somebody and was like all right,here comes the awkward sales
pitch Look, look, I'll be superupfront.
I don't have a slide deck, Idon't have a big polished speech
.
That's really not how I work.
Like I'm not the world's bestsalesperson.

(31:06):
I don't honestly give a damnabout that.
I give a damn about doing goodwork on this marketing campaign.
And like here are all the waysthat I can help you.
And then I gave them therundown.
Like here are all the ways thatI can help you.
And then I gave them therundown.
Like here's what it is, here'show it works, here's what it
costs.
Let me know if you're in andpeople were, they were saying
yes to that, to me not having apolished presentation and just

(31:26):
being like I'm turning red inthe chest and I'm like my
anxiety was palpable, but Ithink it was just the fact that
I was upfront and genuine aboutit and like this is not no, this
is not the slick salespresentation.

I think people like that, though, cause I
always find, when I talk tosomebody and it's not the slick
sales presentation, but it feelsgenuine and honest Like yeah,
that's someone I feel I want towork with.
I don't want perfect, I mean.
I'm anything but perfect.
Yes, I want to feel comfortable.
It's the person.
We're buying the person a lotof the time, you know.
I want to feel comfortable withthis person, but feel heard by
this person, Feel heard and feelsupported.

That's something that I work on with a lot of the
newer folks that I coach too.
It's like there's a differencebetween listening to respond and
listening to understand.

Absolutely.

Oh my gosh yeah if you're listening to them just to
formulate your next very wittyand smart sounding answer, so
that they know exactly just howbrilliant you are and they
instantly want to buy from you.
Like you're not in theconversation, you're
manipulating the conversation.
You're not showing your trueself to the person because
you're not actually present andlike this just leads to all

(32:35):
kinds of further communicationon down the line.

In my opinion, Absolutely, and like so, a big
part of web design over theyears has been.
You have to be somewhat of aconsultant and you end up in
coaching territory Justnaturally, by virtue of what you
do.
So that was why I did thecoaching course this year the
basic level coaching Cause I waslike, okay, I need to make sure

(33:00):
I'm not doing harm here.
You know, because there's acertain amount that you're
giving advice and I want to bebetter at this, not.
And then I learned.
And then I learned thatcoaching is not about giving
advice at all.
It is not coaching is just aboutlistening and being curious and
what bringing out theamazingness that's in the person
.
I mean the the course wasphenomenal, like it's for me.
I don't want to go into purecoaching fully, but through

(33:22):
facilitating women becomingcomfortable with their own
sustainable business goals, Ilove it from that perspective.
So as a blend with what I do, Ilove it.
But it was mind blowing to me Imean the coach, the course,
that it was amazing, but thiswhole idea it is not.
I hadn't made the distinctionbetween consulting and coaching,
which is why it's so importantthat people train.

Yes, consultants tell you what to do.
Coaches help you find theanswers that you already have.
I was trying not to laugh whileyou were explaining all that,
cause my brain just went back tolike how is archeology coming
back up again?
Like, because coaches reallyhelp you dig through all the
shit that you've accumulatedover the years, all of the
conflicting voices, all of theshiny object courses that you've

(34:02):
taken as an entrepreneur, andget clear on what you really
want and what makes sense to youand your people and tie those
strands together, Like that'swhat I found some of the biggest
part is that really listeningand they can't see the strands
because they're in it, Just likewith the design, I'm in it and
it's so hard to design formyself.

But when you can be the person who comes in
from outside listening, it'slike oh, but you just said you
did this a few minutes ago.
It's like oh, and I love thatwhen everyone's like oh, oh,
yeah.

Oh gosh, I think this is hilarious.
I'm a big fan of collaborationversus competition and not too
long ago I realized that therewas another marketer who was
doing a very similar offer to me.
Like it was an intensiveexperience.
There's a lot of interview,there's a lot of like
co-creation and at first I had,I had, like a little mini pity
party, like somebody else foundit first and they talk about it

(34:53):
way better than I do because Isuck at talking about it, like
the self-promotion thing, thenot having the best perspective.
And then, like I had my brief,I'm talking about like 15
seconds at most worth ofwallowing before I went.
You know what.
No, reach out to this person,start a conversation, say hey,

(35:14):
I'm doing something similar.
If you're open to it, I'd loveto ask you some questions about
your offer, what you're up to,and I'd love to find out how I
can promote and support you.
And it turns out like we'retalking about it.
She's got a completely differentvibe from me, even though it's
the almost exact same service.
She's got this wonderful likeshout out to Zafira Rajan, she's
brilliant.
She's got this whole like spa,tranquility, you know, serenity,

(35:36):
water, hot.
I think she has like a um, acold plunge and a sauna and
stuff like that, like all ofthese offers that are packaged
into this kind of spa, uh,imagery, and I was like anybody
that knows me knows I'm morelike kick down the wall, light
something on fire.
This is a rock show.
There's space for both of us tohave the exact same offer,

(35:58):
because we're for reallydifferent people.
Um, although I think it wouldsurprise people to know I, I
really love spas.
It's like I would live in oneif I could you all.

Do you like another spa?
I do like.
I like one too.
It's very intermittent that Iend up there, but I do do like
it.

Oh gosh, where do I want to go with my next
question?
I mean, this is alsofascinating to me, like the
conversation around not beingour own best advocates, figuring
out how to position ourselves,learning all of this new
technology that you talked about.
Like you were talking earlierabout the progression, and I
know that you said you've beendoing this over 20 years, how

(36:38):
many different kinds oftechnology did you have to learn
, would you say?

Yeah, I don't know.
I've never really sat down tothink about it because I think
this is again an ADHD thing, butI get excited when there's
something new coming along, youknow it's like oh, something new
to dig my teeth into.
Where's this going?
to take me and it's often like Iwould say definitely 50% of the
time it's a distraction.
Maybe another 30% of the timeit's like could be useful but

(37:05):
just gets forgotten about andthen, like 20% of it, becomes
incredibly core to what you do.
And so that's a small hit ratereally for the amount of time
that I spend discovering newthings, but it does mean I'm
open to a lot.
And then those tangents againget pulled in, those threads get
pulled in another way.
You know they shape your movein another direction or whatever
.
But to say like the sales partof it I find so hard because,

(37:29):
like you, it's so funny.
You said that I had the exactsame experience before having
the kids.
It was all custom web designand all quite high end, but it
was all referral and it was alsovery high pressure.
Like high pressure to the pointthat I remember having Ruby and
I had an emergency in section,a very, very difficult time, and
I was back on the computer.

(37:51):
My legs were not unfrozen yetfrom the epidural and I was on
the computer trying to finish aproject that I was working on
that had to be done.
It had run over like it was abig, big project for a big
website here, a town basedwebsite, and it just had run
over with all of the differentpeople involved and so, yeah,
that was just a super amount ofstress and then I had to take it

(38:12):
easy.
Over a couple of years I didand I didn't.
That's part of a whole otherarea, but like now I'm really
struggling, I guess.
I guess I struggle to find myfeet with the sales part of
things.
You know, because before withbig projects, referrals work,
you know like you can get one ortwo referrals a month, or three
or four referrals a month, andthat's you said, you know,

(38:33):
whereas definitely working theway I do now, when it's
definitely more startup basedpeople at the earlier stages,
you need a lot of referrals inorder to be able to keep a
family of four going.
Yes, so this is the area Ireally want to focus on this
year for myself is getting morecomfortable with being, you know
, with creating offers anddelivering them, whereas now I

(38:53):
tend to just okay.
It's actually a ridiculoussituation.
I don't even have testimonialsup on my website, like I had
this old website and trying tomake it into the new one, I just
yeah.
Again, our own websites getleft at the very end of the mile
.

Well, but that's the funny thing too.
I think, like having the idealwebsite does hold a lot of
people back from going out thereand making sales, because that
fear is like what if they go andcheck me out and the message
doesn't match what I'm sayingand I'm like this is all
communication.
Guys, and we as people,especially in this age of like
putting screens between us andnot really getting good at

(39:29):
talking to people and being justcomfortable, just comfortable
we're just going to make upwords, uncomfortable Talking to
other people and dealing withhard feelings and hard
conversations.
Right, you can get better atall of this and you can manage
that, and you could just tellpeople how this works.

Do the simple thing.
Yeah, I mean, this is somethingthat people come to me the
whole time when we're talkingabout websites and it's like I
need to get the SEO and all therest.
And I am just like stop, stop,stop, stop.
Okay, you do not have thebudget for SEO and even if you
did, it is so in flux right nowand like, yes, we're going to
create a super website for youright now, but it is still just

(40:08):
a business card.
You know it is a big oldbusiness card, no one's going to
go there unless you bring themthere.
And that's the fact of thematter.
And I've had so many people sayyou don't need a website now.
You just need to, you know, geton LinkedIn and do your thing.
And I really push back on thatbecause I think if you're
someone who is really confidentalready and like happy to hop up

(40:29):
onto TikTok and like get going,great maybe, then you don't
need a website.
That's a really.
There's none of my clients thathave fit into that mode.
Also, if you have a hugenetwork already and you have
huge connections and you onlyneed one or two really big
corporate clients for the year,yeah, you probably don't need a
website.
Then for nearly everybody else,Dang.

(40:51):
If I'm going to take on aservice, the first thing I do is
look for their website.
It does not need to be perfect,but if they don't have an
online presence, I'm veryunlucky to buy, you know, cause
I don't trust it.
Then I'm like, okay, theyhaven't invested in themselves
or they're not taking themselves, I suppose, seriously enough,
and I know that that's a logicalfallacy.
Of course they've investedthemselves.
In other words, Of coursethey're taking themselves
seriously enough.
They're trading, they're doingtheir thing, but I do think that

(41:11):
having that one little piece ofspace online gives you so much
credibility.
But especially for my clients.
What it really does is that itsets them up themselves because
they've sat down and done thework of what is my business, who
is it for?
Does this reflect me?
And then they just feel reallyconfident when somebody asks
them about their business, evenif the words won't come out when

(41:33):
they're in public, they can sayyou can just check me out here,
you know, at my website.
So it just gives that beautifulground to stand on.

Thank you for sharing all of that, cause I
know I have definitely said onthis show before I'm a big, I'm
one of those advocates.
Probably in another time, if weweren't talking like this would
have been like at loggerheads,like just not agreeing on this.
I don't know why.
I'm being awkward about it.
Whatever, all right.
So I used to.
I still tell people you don'tneed a website, but I think

(42:02):
that's because a lot of thepeople that I deal with are
copywriters and or or beginningstage creative entrepreneurs who
will use the website as astalling mechanism Like they
have fallen for the narrativethat you need to build this
great, big old funnel and onceyou get all of those pieces
right, the business is justgoing to fall in your lap.

(42:24):
And to those people I say thoseare the ones that I specifically
say your website does notmatter right now.
You need to go out and figureout how you can help people.
Don't worry about yourmessaging if you don't even know
what you're offering to people.
Go talk to somebody, listen foran opportunity to help, like
when they say oh God, I justreally.
You know, I hate writing emails.
That is the bane of myexistence.
And you go, well, I happen towrite emails.

(42:46):
Is that something that you needhelp with?
Let's talk, we can figure out.
Maybe we can work togetherright, a sales conversation can
be just that easy.
And then, after you work with acertain number of people on
those emails, you start tonotice patterns and now you can
go back to your website and belike okay, so with my last few
clients, we worked on thisproblem, this problem, this
problem.
Now you've got the words foryour website.

And that's exactly why I changed that.
That's.
There was a good few reasons,but that was the biggest reason
why I moved to co-creationbecause I was creating these
beautiful WordPress sites and,honestly, they frightened the
shit out of my clients to go inthere and make a change Like I'm
going to break it.
I've spent all this money.
I'm going to break it.

That's me.

I was like this is not right.
Like this is just not right.
This is crazy, like as far asI'm concerned, because like it's
just my personality I have toget in, I have to break stuff
and make it to know and I needto do that.
It's like the way my brainworks, like I have to be able to
take it apart or I don't wantit.
You know, it's like I don't, Ican't have something that's just
like pristine and sitting therelike to be admired.
It just doesn't work for me.
But with co-creation, the pointis is to get them to go in there

(43:45):
, because I can see all of theseclients that I have.
They think they know what theirbusiness is, they think they
know who their customer is, butuntil you've been in front of
your first year's worth ofclients, you don't know.
So, yes, get a website done,but my God, make sure you can
get right in there and makechanges, because every client
you take on is going to changewho your customer is, what your
business is, who you think youare on a fundamental level.

(44:08):
And, honestly, it's justthere's no excuses these days
because you can pop on Canva nowand two clicks you can have a
website on Canva as part of yourCanva plan and like they're
great.
You know they're not a fullwebsite, but it is enough to get
you started.
That's enough for me to hireyou is knowing that you're
professional.
You've just got this page.

It is done.
You, you can do that for freeright now in the free plans.
Exactly.
I totally I co-sign thatbecause I think that that's
that's the wheel spinning thatI'm talking about, exactly Like
somebody that's going oh God,well, I can't get out there and
get business until I spend atleast $5,000 creating this
website and getting all of mybusiness cards and stuff like
that.
I go to events and people askme for my business card and I
tell them I don't have one.
I don't have one either, youdon't have a business card Like,

(44:54):
yeah, okay, so I'll be honest,if you give me your business
card, I'm probably going tothrow it away because my brain
doesn't retain information thatway.
What I would rather do is havea really deep conversation with
just a few people and my brainetches your face into the
database and I go oh, I knowthis person, even if next time

(45:15):
we walk into the room and I'mlike what is your name?
My brain yeets names for somereason, but I always recognize
faces.
Oh my God, I remember.
You Remind me what your name isreal quick.
It's so good to see you give mea hug, like much rather do that
than pass around business cards.

I'm like I'll look at a business card a couple
days later and go who.

The hell was that I ?

told you that's exactly like I've got.
I find them every so often.
I'm like gosh.
I don't even remember who thatperson is, you know like it's
the conversation and, honestly,it's when it comes to the
networking, it's linkedin,because I connect to them and
then I hear the message againand that reinforces who that
person was like.
So, like I would rather, when Ihave a chat to somebody, I
don't really care about yourbusiness card, I just want to
connect to you and you know,that's what it's, that's what

(45:57):
all the business is, isn't itjust connecting to you?
And that's what a website does.
It really gives you a point ofconnection and it really helps
you refine your message and ithelps you refine where you are,
and that again I keep runningback to like I swear to God, my
own best sales card here.
I should record this, in fact,to co-creation again, to stop

(46:17):
the procrastination it is donein a day and I mean it.
Like we hop on, you know, for asession and it is done in that
four hour session.
We press publish at the endbecause it is.
There's no way that I want youto have a perfect website.
If it's perfect, you are notgoing to touch it.
This thing is so perfect, Ican't touch it.
I need the clients to be inthere making changes.

(46:39):
I need them to be in thereadding new clients up feeling
like that they can change thiscopy because it doesn't
represent them anymore.
They just have to get thatfluidity and then add to this
yes, when the time is right,then and you know, what your
message is.
Oh, my god, there are so manyamazing designers out there.
There's so many amazing customweb designers moved to those
agencies who will take your handand create something kick-ass

(47:01):
for you.
Go there, it's just incrediblepeople for all stages of this
process.
So it's just right stage, rightservice.

Oh yeah, I think that brings it full circle
perfectly.
Like, if you're scared of AI,connection is the thing Like
that's going to become even moreimportant as technology gets
more advanced being able tobuild and maintain real, actual
human relationships and I'm notjust talking about superficial.

(47:31):
We're all smiley, happy all thetime, right, the people that
know me, the people that seethis side of me, the podcast
host, the chipper, happy one.
Don't know how many times I'vecanceled recordings because I'm
having a bad day, or like oneday I pinched my shoulder and I
was in severe pain, like I can'tbring this person out.
On those days I'm not shiny andhappy all the time.

(47:54):
But I also know that therelationships I've built, I've
put more into thoserelationships so that I can
withdraw a little bit every oncein a while when I need a little
bit of grace and understandingMe.
Having a bad day doesn'tdestroy anything.

Yeah, I'm the exact same.
It's great that this isbecoming more socially
acceptable.
Now, like you, don't have toshow up as all business,
business, business all day long.
Like you know, we do want to dobusiness with people, and
people have families.
People have lives.
Contrary to popular belief overthe last hundred years, people
have hormones.
Like your body reactsdifferently on different days,
there's external circumstancesand life is messy, and that's

(48:36):
why business has to besustainable.
And I don't mean ecologicallysustainable That'd be great too
I mean sustainable for you, foryour family, for your community,
for everything.
Know, yes, it's just crazy thatthis has become this hammer on
the head thing when it should besomething that's so beautiful,
so sustainable and so connecting.

Yes, every time oh, and you can't tell me that
perfection is what people admire.
Nope, like nothing on thisearth, like, even if you look at
the, the, the canvasesunderneath the, the leonardo da
vinci paintings.

You can see how many different layers.

Yeah, so there's layers, onions have layers,
people have layers.
We're gonna quote track to wrapup this episode.
All right, before I go all theway down the rabbit hole, please
this has been fantastic Tell usa little bit more about how we
can learn about this wonderfulwebsite in a day process.

You can just go to my website fancy that,
which is just orlafitscom.
So, yeah, everything is upthere, or it should be up there.
It's up there imperfectly, buthave a chat.
The main thing is just have achat, because I do think that
I'm sure there's lots of otherpeople doing this too, but it is
a relationship and so it'sabout just having a chat and
seeing if you feel comfortablewith me, I feel comfortable with

(49:56):
you, and then you createsomething great.
So it is just about having achat and seeing if it's the
right road for you, and if it'snot, I generally advise people.
Then it's like, okay, I don'tthink this is the right road for
you right now, but I think thismay be, and that could be just
me explaining what you do to getit up yourself, like using
things like Canva and all that,or it could be saying no, I

(50:17):
think you're at that next stage.
You need to work with an agency, you need to work with custom
designers, you need to move tothat stage.
So it's very much aboutfiguring out what's the right
path for you.
But, yeah, all my stuff linksto all of the many myriad things
that I end up doing are onorlapetscom.

Awesome.
I'll make sure there's aclickable link in the show notes
.
Thank you again for being sucha wonderful guest.
Thank you so much.
That's all for now.
If you want to keep thatkick-ass energy high, please
take a minute to share thisepisode with someone that might
need a high-octane dose of youCan Do it.
Don't forget to rate, reviewand subscribe to the Permission
to Kick-Ass podcast on ApplePodcasts, spotify and wherever
you stream your podcasts.
I'm your host, angie Coley, andI'm here rooting for you.

(51:00):
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