October 24, 2024 • 45 mins
This week, I sat down with my friend Jen Baxter, a copywriter and content strategist who's lived an incredible life. We talked about all the ups and downs of entrepreneurship, along with the importance of betting on yourself. If you've ever fantasized about running away to Bali and seeing what happens, you might wanna hit that play button NOW.
Can't-Miss Moments:
- One-way ticket to paradise: Jen's one of the few people I've met who have flown off to a tropical island with no real plan in mind. Here's what happened...
- Answering the important questions: do you still get to call yourself an entrepreneur or a freelancer if you take a job?
- SPOILER ALERT: stop treating your life and your business like you can put a coin in a machine, punch a button, and pull out happiness! Here's what to do if you find yourself following the so-called "success steps"...
- You do NOT need to change everything about who you are to build something incredible. Jen and I explore the difference between trying to fit in and understanding you belong...
- How to tell if a slick copywriter or marketer is blowing smoke up your ass (Jen and I share what to look for, how to ID red flags, and when to run screaming for the hills)...
Jen's bio:
Jen Baxter is the Copy Queen authors call when they're tired of feeling like book marketing is a necessary evil. Based in Austin, Texas (by way of San Francisco in a classic "it's not just about the job" move), she turns marketing your non-fiction book from "Ugh, do I have to?" into "Hey, this is actually kind of fun."
How? By crafting stories and strategies that not only sell books but build lasting connections with raving fans. After navigating the waters of a hybrid publishing company (a tale worthy of its own chapter), Jen now coaches best-selling and emerging authors to find their groove on platforms like Substack.
She's convinced that people still love books, a vibrant email list is key to reaching them, and the iconic British red phone boxes are due for a comeback.
Through her weekly Substack, The Skillful Scribbler, she spins life's raw material into stories that make you laugh, reflect, and occasionally snort – all while serving up actionable tips for authors to identify, attract, and grow a tribe of loyal readers ready to buy their book.
Resources and links:
Let's collab:
Let's connect:
If you dig the show and want to help bring more episodes to the world, consider buying a coffee for the production team!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show
that gives you a virtual seatat the bar for the real
conversations that happenbetween entrepreneurs.
I'm interviewing all kinds ofbusiness owners, from those just
a few years into freelancing toCEOs helming nine-figure
companies.
If you've ever worried thateveryone else just seems to get
it and you're missing somethingor messing things up, this show
(00:24):
is for you.
I'm your host, angie Coley, andlet's get to it and welcome
back to Permission to Kick Ass.
With me today is my friend, jenBaxter.
Say hi, hi.
I'm excited for this onebecause you've got a lot of fun
stuff to tell us, especiallyabout your recent trip to
Morocco.
But before we get into that,tell me a little bit more about
(00:47):
what you do.
Jen Baxter (00:48):
Hey, angie, I'm excited to be here and talk to
you because you always bring thegood vibes and I need them
right now, so that's great.
So I'm a copywriter and acontent strategist.
I have most recently workedwith authors, helping them do
their author websites and launchtheir books and create an
online community of readers, andI also have a regular
(01:09):
newsletter called the SkillfulScribbler.
That's on Substack, and I'vebeen growing that for the past
eight, nine months too.
Angie Colee (01:16):
Well, that's fantastic.
What got you into that?
Jen Baxter (01:19):
The newsletter or the copywriting, or both or both
, let's get into both newsletteror the copywriting, or both or
both, let's get into both.
So copywriting, I'd say,happened about 10 years ago.
I was traveling, which willbring it back to Morocco, but I
had a really stable corporatecareer in healthcare and I went
through some personal challengesfor a couple of years before my
(01:40):
parents died of cancer and atthe end of it I was like I just
I need to change some things.
So I bought a one-way ticket toBali, indonesia.
I was going to stay for threemonths, travel around Southeast
Asia, come back, look foranother job, do the right thing.
And I ended up staying forthree years and during that time
I ended up doing freelancewriting and photography and I
(02:01):
discovered Copyblogger and thelovely Sonia Simone and so right
.
So I came back from that andthis.
I sort of had this feeling.
I'm from San Francisco and Ijust had this feeling if I don't
sort of put my flag in theground now and start to at least
attempt to become a writer, afreelance writer, I will never
(02:21):
do it Like I will get a job andI'll go back into the same old
grind and I'll say I'm doing iton the side, but I won't really
do it.
So I landed in San Franciscobecause that's where I'm from
and that's my support system.
Not the brightest thing to tryto launch a freelance career in
the most expensive city in theUS.
I gotta say I don't advise it,but the support system is really
(02:44):
important, something like that.
So I just I started pitchingand I started doing some social
media stuff and I was listeningto a lot of copy blogger and
that's really how I startedlearning.
And then I connected with thelovely Sonia Simone, who has
been a mentor since then andfrom there I did some online
courses and then I connectedwith you because I really
(03:06):
started to understand the powerof all these great women
copywriters online that werementoring people.
So through Marcella Allison, Imet you really helpful and I
feel like that's part of whatkept me going was that I found
this group of women writersonline that I was like oh, I can
do this Like this, this fits.
You know what I mean.
(03:27):
So I just experimented.
I did a lot of content for realestate agents, I did some
copywriting for coaches, I didwebsites, like whatever I could
get my hands on, and a lot oftimes it was like a very fallow
time right, like definitely thehills and valleys, and then
(03:48):
COVID came and I was like allright, like many clients went
away, like it did for everybody,and I thought I've got to do
something that kind of helps meand helps other people, and I
had been doing these writingcircles for women for a long
time free writing circles, sonot about being a better writer,
not about writing your weeklyemails, but actually an
(04:10):
emotional release, about gettingstuff out on the page, about
helping you emotionally,mentally, physically, and also
to like calm your nervous systemright, to just kind of write to
prompts and get all that stuffthat you're stuffing down out.
And it went really well duringCOVID, right Like I had a lot of
women signing up becauseeverybody needed that safe space
(04:32):
.
So I created a safe space.
There's no talking or chatter.
We did that for a couple monthsand then I got a job in Austin,
texas, with a book publishingcompany, and so I picked up
everything at the end of 2021and said, okay, I'm going to
trust my gut and start this bookpublishing company, start with
(04:53):
it.
And I moved to Austin and didthat for about two years and
during that time that's when Ireally took my newsletter
seriously, working for Scribe,because I saw how important it
was for authors to have anewsletter and have an audience
when they launched their books.
I mean, there's just no wayaround it, right, and it was
something that I had fromcopywriting like I had been
(05:15):
doing it for years, but it wasso hard to keep it going and it
was also so hard to find theconsistency in it, right,
because sometimes I'm writingabout copywriting and then I
started doing the writingcircles and I'd write about that
, and then I did somephotography workshops with
companies and I'd write aboutthat.
So I sort of had this mishmashof like a little over a hundred
(05:36):
people who I'd write to, but Ididn't really have any goals
let's just put it that way Likethere was no strategy behind it.
So once I moved to Austin andstarted working with authors, I
was like, oh no, this, this issomething that, like, I have to
do for myself.
It was kind of that edge Ineeded to scratch for myself.
So then the job went awaybecause the company filed
(06:01):
bankruptcy and laid everybodyoff.
Angie Colee (06:03):
That is a juicy story, by the way.
Everybody like we're notsharing anything that hasn't
been extensively written aboutin the public.
If you want all of the tea andall of the drama and to more
deeply understand the giganticupheaval that was Jen's
experience with this company, golook up Scribe Media.
Jen Baxter (06:21):
Go look on LinkedIn.
Angie Colee (06:25):
It's crazy and this is why, like I constantly rail
about, business is hard right,I'm not trying.
I'm not one of those internetgurus out there telling you well
, if you just invest in mysystem, you're going to be
sipping Mai Tais on the beach.
You've all heard me rant aboutlaptops.
Go nowhere near the beach.
We're not at no, no sand in thelaptop.
(06:45):
No, working at the beach.
That's not happening.
But also, god, at the end of theday, I don't want to show up
someday and have the rug rippedout from under me because, you
know, a partner has abscondedwith all the all of the money, a
CEO has made a decision thatsuddenly means everybody is laid
off.
Like I could lose a client,that could be my nasty surprise
(07:08):
for the day.
But the likelihood that I'mgoing to be fired from my own
business any day that I show uppretty, I mean I'm in good with
the boss, she's me and I respectmy ability to hustle and I you
know this.
This phrase keeps coming backup to me and I feel the need to
mention it today.
When you build a business, trynot to build it on the wrong
(07:30):
things.
Right, it's not about theplatform, it's not about the
system.
It's not about the niche, it'snot about any of that.
A bird does not sit on a branchbecause it trusts the branch
not to break.
The bird trusts itself to flyaway Right, and I think that
that's the attitude that we allneed to bring into everything we
do, not just business.
(07:50):
But I trust myself to recoverfrom this.
This branch I'm sitting oncould break and I will be fine.
Jen Baxter (07:57):
No great yeah, Because I do feel like there are
inflection points in life whereyou have the choice of betting
on yourself I think that's thebest way to put it and sometimes
it doesn't make sense to bet onyourself, right?
I've been in financialsituations, health situations
where, like I have to say, whenI started the scribe job,
(08:17):
unbeknownst to me, like I had aheart arrhythmia condition that
I did not know about when Istarted and nobody at scribe
knew either the whole time.
So thank God, I had the healthinsurance.
Angie Colee (08:26):
And thank God I had a job.
Jen Baxter (08:27):
That was really easy for me to do.
Authors were happy, I enjoyedworking with them, I delivered
good websites, I did goodwriting for them and I could
also manage this.
So that was a huge I mean.
I do feel like.
In fact, I feel like this is agood conversation for us to have
.
I have learned that, like youhave, it's this fine balance of
(08:48):
learning when to bet on yourselfand then when to say, okay,
actually I need the extrasupport, and like I need the
health insurance and I need the401k, and that makes more sense
now because actually that willhelp me emotionally,
psychologically, to feel secureand get that regular paycheck.
But it doesn't mean that it'sgoing to always be that way.
There will come another point,another choice where it'll be
(09:12):
time to bet on myself.
Angie Colee (09:13):
Yes, yes, exactly, you know.
I'm glad that you brought thatup too, because the rants that I
was on before made it soundlike never trust a job.
And that is not the implication.
I'm not an always or neverperson, I am a you know, we have
all of these wonderful shadesof gray about humanity.
We have so many possibilities.
It's never either or.
I just said I'm not an alwaysor never person.
(09:35):
I said it's never either or,but I think you get what it like
.
We contain multitudesSimultaneously.
Things can be true Like I don'tthink a job is the way to go if
you want to have the kind ofsuccess that most of us dream
about, and also some people findsuccess at jobs, and also some
people don't really enjoy theprocess of entrepreneurship,
Like.
All of these things can be true.
It's up to us to figure out ourown path and what is worth the
(09:58):
struggle, the juice that's worththe squeeze.
Jen Baxter (10:01):
Yeah, I agree, and I would add to that too, in terms
of being a human like, we haveto be flexible about what we
need right.
So even if you have started abusiness that you are 100% in on
, there could come a time inyour family where you need to
take a step back and take asteady job in order to keep that
(10:23):
dream going, to actually makeit be healthy.
So I feel like that's a verybig learning that I have.
You know, I'm grateful that Iwent all in on the writing
because it has led me on like apersonal growth path that I
would not have experienced.
And it's more than just oh, youknow you decide whether or not
you want to be working foryourself or you want to work for
someone else.
And it's even more than just oh, you know you decide whether or
(10:43):
not you want to be working foryourself or you want to work for
someone else.
And it's even more than decidewhen it's about recognizing okay
, I'm tired and I'm not going tobe doing great stuff and the
pitching is not going to happenbecause I'm not bringing myself
to it.
How can I now make a betterchoice where I'm taking care of
everything so that I can relax alittle and then the writing
(11:04):
will get better, I'll get moreexcited about pitching, I'll
find more interestingopportunities, because I've kind
of taken care of that baselevel for now and to also set
yourself up, I mean, I thinkthis is where my newsletter has
come in in the last eight months.
Like before Scribe, beforeeverything imploded, I had
(11:25):
already started a sub stackbecause I was already thinking
to myself okay, here's the thing, now that I'm relaxed and now
that I actually feel financiallysecure and emotionally secure
and I'm in a good place, thiswon't last forever.
I know that right right, there'slike a sweet spot, right Right,
like things are going well,things are, you're being taken
care of, but it will change andwhen it changes, I need to have
(11:48):
something that I can lean into,where I'm betting on myself.
Right, because life goes backand forth.
So that's really how it startsmy free time.
Because I had this itch I hadto scratch, which is one, like I
think it's the email list forme that really I really need to
(12:10):
get under my belt.
Like I need to have thatbecause that I understand how
that works in terms of a writingpractice and I understand how
that works in terms of sellingthings and finding new clients
and having that regularfoundation, right.
But at the same time too, I waslike, if this goes away, like I
have got to have something elsewhere I can better myself in
(12:30):
place, and there were no signs.
I mean, I can say I'm not goingto say that there were no signs
, because obviously there weresigns.
Angie Colee (12:37):
There was probably some your unconscious picked up
on that.
Jen Baxter (12:40):
That's exactly what I was going to say Exactly Like
there must've been a lot ofsigns and I was, you know, being
positive about things going.
Oh no, it'll be fine, it'll befine.
And then, at the end of the day, like I was right, like I was
like, oh shit, I've got to dothis.
And so, instead of rushing tofind another job right away in a
panic because that's when Imean, I've learned, that's when
(13:03):
you know, I want to go findanother job right away and I had
enough saved up and I had thisnewsletter started where I was
like I've got to bet on myselffor a couple months and I need
to at least figure this out andhave my own foundation, and then
I'll get another job.
Like it's not, it won't be acrisis thing.
It'll be like, okay, I'm ready.
I'm actually ready for a steadypaycheck now.
(13:24):
I'm ready for a one-day, like Iwant the health insurance, and
then I'll kind of bring my bestgame for you.
So I do feel like.
I do feel like entrepreneurs ingeneral.
We don't talk about that enough.
You know what I mean that thisgoing back and forth, depending
on what life throws at you.
Angie Colee (13:43):
I think there are a lot of people that feel a lot
of shame.
I know I've certainly hadguests on where we talked about
that Like, does that make me afailure?
Am I allowed to call myself anentrepreneur?
I remember that one that's oneof I'm not supposed to say
favorites, but that was one ofmy favorite conversations
because I think that that comesup a lot, especially in creative
circles.
That's Carolyn and Anian inepisode seven and you know she's
(14:07):
.
She's somebody who is like you,freelanced a lot and gone in
house and was like do you know?
That was something I was scaredof.
Do I get to call myself anentrepreneur If I've got a day
job?
The answer is yes.
You get to call yourself anentrepreneur If you feel like an
entrepreneur.
What show were you listening to?
It's called permission to kickass.
There's your little aside,right.
You get to call yourselfwhatever you want to call
(14:29):
yourself.
Just don't call yourself ashitty name in front of me,
because you know I'll get up ona soapbox and tell you that's
not true.
Steps forward, steps back,steps, side steps.
This journey is full of all ofthem.
Missed steps, right.
Nobody knows where this isgoing to go.
All we can do is go.
I'm setting my target for thereand I think that's.
(14:51):
I think I've figured out a wayto get there, and you have to
adjust along the way.
It's all you can do.
Jen Baxter (14:55):
I know that is such good advice.
That is such good advicebecause I do feel like when
you're struggling and you're ina little bit of panic mode
because you are struggling, youfeel at least I have felt like
everybody already knows thesteps and I got left out of, I
missed that class, I didn't takethe right notes right, or I
(15:17):
didn't take the right onlinecourse because I missed the
steps and now I'm skipping oversteps trying to catch up with
everybody else, and actuallyit's not like that.
Angie Colee (15:28):
Yeah, some people have an escalator.
They never had to worry aboutthe steps.
And some people have, like alittle step ladders worth of
steps.
And some people have, like,have you ever been to Columbia?
There was a rock I climbedthere called Del Pinole, with
over 600 steps.
So some people have Del Pinoleclimbing up and up and up and up
in a zigzag.
(15:48):
The steps don't exist.
I was talking with anotherguest about that earlier.
We got to stop expecting.
If I put my coin in thismachine and I push the right
sequence of buttons, myhappiness will come out.
I have followed all of thesteps, I have done all of the
steps.
I have done all of the things.
Why did I not get that, with allof the love I have, is
(16:09):
entitlement and it's unrealisticand it's like the thing that we
I really and I say this as muchto myself as to anybody
listening we have got to stoppretending like it's possible to
have all the answers.
Whether someone else has allthe answers or if we only work
(16:30):
hard enough, we can come up withall the answers.
None of us knows what the hellwe're doing.
We have a pretty good idea ofwhat should happen next, but you
know I've told this ties backinto kind of like guarantees
with copywriting.
I've had clients ask me beforewhat can you guarantee me?
I said I can't guarantee youanything Really.
And they're like, well, whyshould I work with you?
And I said, look, let me breakdown guarantees and why I won't
(16:52):
do it and why.
I think anybody who isguaranteeing you you really got
to look at their motivations andtheir track record to see if
they're trying to pull one overon you, because guarantees are
pretty hard in this industry.
You want to know why?
I know Because in January andFebruary of 2021, hell, aka
Texas, froze over.
A lot of marketing campaignsfailed that day.
(17:13):
A lot of really good marketingcampaigns failed that day when
Texas went off the grid andfroze.
So there are no guarantees.
A pandemic happened in 2020that a lot of people are still
reeling from.
There are multiple world warshappening around the world right
now.
Nobody knows what's going tohappen.
So we got to stop pretendinglike there are steps somewhere
(17:37):
and if only I discover the step,the steps, I will finally get
my happiness.
You can be happy right here andright now, and it may be a bit
of work on self and to like,refocus on the things that
you've got going for you insteadof stressing about the things
that you don't have yet yet.
But there you go.
We're just going to get rantytoday, that's well, I'm rancy or
(18:00):
not.
Jen Baxter (18:01):
I just had an aha moment that I had to write down
while you were on that, becauseI've never seen, I've never
thought of it like entitlement.
So, thank you, I'm going toboom like I'm going to have to
sit with that for a minute LikeI want to have one on this
Namaste.
Hang on for a second Pause, hitpause, because I've never
thought of expecting to know allthe steps as entitlement and I
(18:26):
guess you're right, like I thinkyou're right.
I mean, I, I have a lot of that.
I mean I know I have a lot ofthat in my life already.
So I'm not it's not like, oh, Ididn't know, but I didn't
understand that, that kind ofthinking.
I never realized that before.
But I would agree with you onthat.
Actually, because it is.
It's an experiment.
It's not a series of steps.
Angie Colee (18:46):
It's actually an experiment of trying different
things, paying attention to whatthe outcomes are and then
making decisions based on thatpractice is built around that,
that not everybody has the samesupport system, like you
mentioned access to resources,the ability to move fast, the
(19:11):
ability to absorb losses right,because if you're playing from a
I don't have much money, I'mgoing to try stuff.
Some people will approach itfrom a well, I got nothing to
lose, I'm going to throweverything I have into it.
And some people will approachit from a well, I've got to
protect what little I havebecause I can't afford to be
homeless on the streets.
So they will make more cautious, smaller, slower steps forward.
(19:32):
Does that make their journeyany less important or less
impactful or less meaningfulthan somebody who shot for the
stars?
I don't think so.
I think we've all got a part toplay, no matter how fast or
slow we're going.
I, just I, and this is, like Isaid again, as much to me as to
(19:53):
anybody listening.
I constantly feel like I haveto remind myself that my value
was just having thisconversation yesterday with a
mastermind, so it's super timely.
My value, your value, listener,your value, jen, is not measured
by what you can do for people.
You are already valuable.
Your business does not have tobe successful for you to be
valuable.
You do not have to have all ofthe money in the world to be
valuable.
You don't have to earn this.
(20:14):
You have it already.
And if there are people outthere telling you that you're
not valuable, fuck those people.
Not literally, they haven'tearned that, but like no, no.
You are a miracle.
Yeah, we that, but like no, noyou are a miracle.
Jen Baxter (20:27):
Yeah, we're going to get ranty today, I agree with
you.
I agree with you about that,although I forget that a hundred
percent when I have to pay myrent and the Cobra insurance.
So that's just why I'm heretoday with you, cause I'm like
Angie will totally cheer me up.
So what I want to come back toagain the other thing you said
that I wrote down is about theguarantee people asking for
(20:48):
copyrighted guarantees.
So this was a huge aha momentwhen I decided, oh, you know,
the newsletter is actuallyhaving a renaissance right now,
but like, I'm gonna hop on thatbecause I've come far enough and
it's such a good writingpractice and I understand the
basics.
And the aha moment was look ittakes.
There are many different factorsthat make your thing sell and I
(21:13):
can be the best writer in theworld.
Angie can be the most strategic, focused, I mean, and she's
done it right, like cha-chingcopywriter you have.
But if you don't have the rightlist of people and the right
offer for those people andsomething really valuable in you
that connects with them, ain'tlike, ain't no writer gonna help
(21:33):
you make money, like it justdoesn't work that way.
And it's like it took me on.
It took me a like a lot of hard, the lesson of hard knocks to
realize, oh, it's not just me,actually, but what is me is it's
on me to tell that person, youknow what.
There's some pieces that youreally need to place, and if you
(21:54):
don't have those, mycopywriting is not going to help
you as much as you want.
Right, and that's like a bigthing to a know and another
thing to be able to say tosomeone when you, you know, want
the job.
Angie Colee (22:06):
Oh yes, oh yes.
Jen Baxter (22:09):
Right, but it's the truth.
It is the truth Right.
And it doesn't mean that thatperson can't get those things in
place Right?
It just means that they don'thave them.
Therefore, you have to tempertheir expectations about the
results.
Angie Colee (22:23):
Yeah, for anybody who has never heard me rant
about copy before, if you'rebrand new to the show,
copywriters are specialtywriters who focus on marketing
and advertising.
So a lot of us work in sales.
But there's there's also theMad Men branch, right, that do
big marketing campaigns andGeico and Superbowl commercials
and stuff like that.
Jen and I well, you, youmentioned that you're in content
(22:43):
I'm more direct response.
So like sales oriented, and I'mvery proud to say I've sold
over $100 million worth ofproduct and I've done it without
selling my soul, like I havevery much stood on.
If I can't sell this to mylittle old grandma without
feeling like a piece of shit, Iwill not sell it.
I have quit jobs for that.
(23:04):
I have refused to run campaignsfor that.
I've parted ways with clientsand lost like five figures a
month in revenue because Iwouldn't do that.
So, like there's a way to be inalignment with your soul and
sell stuff, I feel very stronglyabout that and I fell early in
my career for that line of likea copy is the magic, it's what
(23:24):
makes it work.
It is not.
And anybody that tries to sellyou that line, they're literally
just trying to get money fromyou right, you need to have an
offer, you need to have peoplewho want to work with you and
want that thing that you have tooffer.
And once those things are inplace, what I do, what Jen does,
can take it, take your resultsand exponentially, multiply them
(23:46):
exponentially, like I've doneit exponentially.
I'm not even lying, but I can'twrite magic.
I really wish I could, becauseI'm a Disney girl at heart, but
I can't.
Jen Baxter (23:59):
It's funny, yeah, so of course.
And that I mean I feel likeactually you becoming a mentor
in the Marcella Allison group Iknow it's been through many
iterations, right, but was sohelpful to me because I so
respect who you've worked forand who you've worked with and
the results and then to hearthat and understand that like
(24:21):
that's what a mentor does, right, it level, sets your
expectations about what'spossible and then it helps you
move forward in a realistic way,saying, oh, it's actually not
about this thing, that I thoughtit was about it's actually
about me just taking the nextstep and understanding what my
strengths are and seeing theplaying field and being able to
explain that playing fieldrealistically to my clients and
(24:46):
like I saw this new skepticismthat's got, I mean, obviously a
lot of the shrinkage that'shappening now in the marketplace
and, like the slowdown in manyof the industries that I'm
involved in, we're recordingthis in May of 2024.
Angie Colee (24:59):
I'm not sure when it's going to air yet, but like
there's there's a lot ofhesitancy and there's a lot of
skepticism, especially incoaching and online marketing,
online businesses and thingslike that, and I think
well-deserved, because for toolong there were people out there
that would say anything to makethe sale, yeah, and they didn't
care about the results, theyjust cared about the sale.
And so I've speculated.
(25:21):
I was like, ok, this, thispendulum is going to swing from
wild West to.
We can say whatever we want inthe name of being able to go.
I sold all the things right, umto no, like how, how do you
sell when all of the tricksdon't work because the audience
is too savvy for your tricks?
That's how you know when you'rereally skilled.
Jen Baxter (25:40):
So it's interesting.
So what that makes me thinkabout is, um, one of the ways
that I bet on myself after thescribe thing imploded and I
decided, ok, I'm going toembrace the newsletter.
Renaissance is.
I joined Shrimp Club with LauraBelgray.
So a little shout out to Laura,and basically because I needed
to laugh and I really wanted tosurround myself with the support
(26:02):
group, right.
But this is the thing Laura isreally good at entertaining
people.
Like her emails are funny,right.
And even when you get a lot ofsales emails which inevitably
sorry, but they a lot of salesemails a sequence can get
annoying when you're not, youknow, up for that.
But like, the personal storiesthat come before them are still
(26:24):
good, right.
And so that's where I was likeyou know, I really want to get
good at those personal storiesbecause I had gotten that
feedback from other people,people who are on my list, old
clients and stuff who wereopening my emails all the time.
But not even like for a women'swriting group, I had some men
photographers opening it.
So I emailed this guy, theseguys, and I was like I just have
(26:45):
to ask, like what is it thatyou like?
Like I'm so curious, it'll helpme.
And they were like oh, I lovehow you can tell stories about
your life and then you pull itaround to writing or you pull it
around to something you know Imay not be interested in your
group, but actually I just lovegetting to know you like that.
And so I was like, ah, okay, sothat's kind of what.
(27:07):
Obviously, what I'm doing, thatI like to do, that's resonating
with people right.
So now I'm gonna bet on myselfand learn from the person who I
I think does that best on theinternet right now.
Like there are a lot of peoplethat do really well, but Laura,
we like she makes you laugh.
So I feel like that is whatI've learned in the last six
months.
People really want thatconnection.
I mean, you know what we'retalking about with Laura, and
Trill Club is different, becauseit is.
(27:29):
You do have to have a, you haveto be at a certain financial
point in your business to investin something like that.
But what I've realized is thatthis is what people are
responding to.
They want more one-on-one stuff, they want more real connection
.
They want funny personalstories, because we're all
struggling with a lot of thethings that you and I have been
talking about and feeling likeokay, I'm tired of online
(27:52):
courses and steps, I can't doany more steps, I just want to
meet people and have the supportsystem.
Oh man, this is, this is all sogreat.
Angie Colee (27:59):
Um, where do I want to go next?
This is all so great.
Where do I want to go next?
I've written down so manythings.
One I didn't know that you hadlike okay, so this is the ADHD
portion of the conversation.
Right, I'm just going to abruptleft turn.
Here we go.
I had no idea that you justlike up and went to Bali.
That is fantastic.
(28:19):
What inspired that?
Jen Baxter (28:22):
Angie, that's such a perfect.
You're really going back now,but it's such a personal.
I'm just gonna say it.
It's gonna, I mean, the rightpeople will listen to this and
resonate with it.
And if you don't resonate withthis, probably shouldn't, you
know, hang it together, but so.
I was at a very real point in mylife where I was um talk about
following the steps, like I hadcarved out a nice little box for
(28:44):
myself and would not allowmyself to get out of it.
And part of that was necessity,which was, you know, I had two
older parents that were dying ofcancer pretty much around the
same time and it was reallystressful.
And I had a job in healthcare,so I was living in a hospital 24
seven.
I was on the business side, butstill I was talking to doctors
(29:05):
all the time and doingpresentations.
And so I hit a point after thatwhere, after they passed, like
I really needed time off, but Iwas not.
I was.
My identity was so wrapped upin my career.
I felt like that was the onlysecurity I had.
And so a friend of mine said tome you know, I'm beginning
(29:26):
massages from this woman.
Yeah, you know how to go.
I think it'll really help you.
And so I went to this woman inSan Francisco who was basically
an energy worker and I had neverbeen to one, I'd never heard of
one, and like it was really thebeginning of my spiritual
awakening in a lot of ways,because I was very much in a box
and I had been in therapy and Iobviously knew I needed a lot
(29:46):
of support during that time.
But I went to this woman.
She never gave me a massage,she never touched me in like the
two years I went to work.
She just did a lot of differentthings.
And all this stuff startedchanging.
Like a whole series of thingshappened and at some point I
said I feel like I'm supposed toquit my job and like travel and
(30:08):
I had had watched a few friendsdo that we were all single,
none of us had kids and over thecourse of my parents being
really ill, I'd watch people goto India and Thailand and
Vietnam was a big thing, and Iwas seeing all this on Facebook
and I was thinking to myselfliterally like every day, like
that will never be my life, thatwill never be me, that's okay.
And then one of them was likesister, it's time you have to
(30:29):
quit your job and go travel.
Like you, you're not married,you don't have kids, you're
doing this to yourself, right?
You have plenty of money rightnow.
Like, you're fine, go travel.
I was like really, and I wastraining for this the San
Francisco to LA, the AIDS ride,the bike ride and I fell off my
bike a year to the date that mymom died and I had to take time
off for her.
(30:50):
So on the that anniversary andtaking that time off, I was like
recovering from a broken wristand I was having all these sort
of awakenings and I said to thiswoman like I think I'm supposed
to quit my job.
She's like that's the firstthing that you've said since I
met you that has made any sense.
I said I don't, I don't evenknow where I go or what I do.
(31:11):
I don't, I don't even know.
She's like we'll get on thetable and we'll ask and we'll
figure it out.
So I caught on her table, shemoved her hands around, she did
some stuff and she said Bali,I'm getting Bali, there's a
group of people you need to meetin Bali.
And like that was the firstmoment.
I guess I really that was notthe first moment in my life.
I've trusted myself once ortwice before then but that was
(31:31):
one of those pivotal momentswhere I'm like I've got nothing
else, I'm just going to do it.
And I started talking to peoplelike that.
Like I talked to I had afinancial advisor and I said
that to her and she said that'sa great idea, like if advisor.
And I said that to her and shesaid that's a great idea, like
if you need permission to dothat, I'm giving you permission.
I talked to my boss and my bosssaid you know what, if you were
anyone else at this stage intheir career, I'd try to talk
(31:53):
them out of it, seeing whatyou've been through in the last
few years.
He's like if that way, that'swhat your intuition is telling
you, you've got to follow it.
It's I.
He's like I've lived a longtime.
This, this is what you have todo.
And I was like all right, sothat was how it happened.
I mean, I'm not kidding, I gotthat information, I trusted it.
I knew life had to change.
That was in my sphere.
(32:15):
Like that was the thing.
That was the next step for meto take.
It was just a matter of whetheror not I would let myself take
it.
And I did, and take it and Idid.
And once I got there, I got oneon a one-way ticket, because a
friend of mine said you know,look, if you can afford it, just
buy the one-way ticket.
She's like you know, don't,don't.
I was going to come back forsomeone's wedding and she said,
(32:35):
unless they're your sister oryour best friend, they will not
know that you're not there ontheir special day.
Like, buy the one-way ticketand if you want to come home
because you're scared or it'snot going well or whatever, you
can come home from anywhere andit's not a big deal.
So I did and then I had stayedfor like three years.
It's crazy.
Angie Colee (32:55):
I love that it was amazing.
Jen Baxter (32:57):
It was, in so many ways I mean, made.
Obviously it made a hugedifference, but it has given me
a foundation inside to check inwith.
Am I not doing this because I'mso scared?
Or am I not doing this becauseit's actually not the next thing
for me to do like the door'snot open?
What's the difference betweenthe door being open and me being
(33:19):
too afraid to step through it?
or it actually just not beingopen and I need to look
somewhere else for where thereis no door, because by no
account was there any reasonthat I should end up in that
experience well, and I love thatdistinction.
Angie Colee (33:35):
Like, looking at this, is there really something
that, like, that door is notopen to me, or is this just fear
talking?
I think we don't really examineour fears often enough to be
able to be that real withourselves.
And I've had similar instancesOne I've talked about on this
show before and it's sointeresting to me that both of
(33:56):
our decisions like that happenedin or around San Francisco.
I was living in San Jose areaat the time when, basically,
like I had to either go home andmove back in with parents and
go back to waiting tables or Ihad to, like, take a stand and I
actually moved into my car andwas homeless for a little while.
But the day that I lost theapartment and had to turn over
(34:19):
keys is the day that I got myfirst part-time junior
copywriting role.
So, like there was something inthe universe, there was
something within me that justsaid stay here, and it didn't
make.
This is the point that I'mtrying to circle around to.
Sometimes things that you feelcalled to do don't make a damn
bit of sense to anybody else inyour life, or they only make
sense to a few people that youtrust, and I'm glad that the
(34:39):
people that you asked werepeople that you could trust with
that dream, who wouldn't golike, oh my God, that's dumb.
Here are all the reasons whydon't do that.
That's usually their fearCrapping all over you.
I was grateful for it.
So, like I left San Francisco,I had an abusive relationship
there I decided to escape toJacksonville, florida, get as
far away as possible, right, andI had a girlfriend there who I
(35:04):
was talking with, a man that Ihad been flirting with for like
20 years Shout out to Mark ifyou're listening and he he's
from New Zealand.
And he jokingly told me hey,you should meet me in Fiji,
that's like halfway.
And I was like that's nothalfway, that's like three hours
for you and like 30 hours forme.
I told this to my friend inpassing and she goes you should
meet him in Fiji, why not?
You're young, you're single,you got a job, you can go to
(35:26):
Fiji, it's fine.
No-transcript, right?
There's no reason I can't go toFiji.
Like, all of the excuses thatI've come up with are bullshit.
So I would have to take timeoff work.
I've got a new job, okay, cool.
So you take time off work andyou tell them.
I'm fortunate enough to begoing to Fiji.
I'm really excited about this.
(35:47):
Thanks, thanks for theopportunity.
I'll make it work, all right.
Uh, go hang out with people Idon't really know very well in
Fiji.
Cool, it's an adventure.
I don't know anybody in Fiji.
We'll just explore and see whathappens.
Right, and I know that, likethere's, there's definitely some
privilege involved in this.
Right, I had the money, I hadthe time, I had the job, I had
the support.
(36:08):
Not everybody can uproot and goto Bali and Fiji, and I totally
understand that.
But does this stop the factthat, like, maybe you need to
move to this state, next stateover, maybe you need to go to a
new city, maybe you need to takesome time off work and ask
yourself if this is really thepath for you?
Right, everybody's journey isdifferent.
I'm not saying that you need touproot to another country or
(36:32):
put it all on a credit card oranything like that, but I'm a
big fan of trusting that littlevoice inside you that says this
is the next step, even when itdoesn't make sense.
Like, sit with it, examine.
Is this fear talking?
Is this excitement talking?
Is this an option that I couldactually take.
I wonder what would happen ifand treat it exactly like you
(36:53):
said earlier, jen, as anexperiment.
See what happens.
Jen Baxter (36:56):
So what I love about what you just shared, too, is
the timing of this.
The timing is always a signright.
So you gave up the keys to yourapartment, you're in your car
and that's when the job camethrough.
That is a timing that ought tonot be ignored.
Angie Colee (37:17):
The irony of that one is not lost on me, like I've
told people before.
Why I think that that is soimportant is if I hadn't trusted
myself, I would have been onthe road to Texas when the job
offer came through.
I literally would not have beenthere to accept the job if I
hadn't trusted myself.
Sorry and I interrupted you.
You sounded like you were on aroll.
Please continue.
Jen Baxter (37:38):
No, that that was the role, that was it.
Like I was listening to whatyou were saying and I'm like oh,
these are the inflection points, that where you get the I mean,
it's like the experiment thatwe're talking about you get the
feedback.
You get the feedback that like,yes, that's the, that's the
step, that's the door that wasopen.
Angie Colee (37:55):
Yes, and it's only possible to see whether it was
the right step or not afteryou've already taken it.
And I think that's the key too,that so many of us we sit here
before taking that step and weanalyze and evaluate every
single possible pro and con andworst case scenario and make all
the plans and stuff like thatand never actually take the step
(38:16):
.
And sometimes it's just assimple as taking the step and
see what happens.
Does that give us more data?
Did nothing happen?
Did everything happen?
Did it all come crashing down?
Okay, well, maybe that was abad step.
Is it recoverable?
Absolutely, as long as you'vegot a breath in your body, you
can figure things out, yeah.
Jen Baxter (38:36):
I mean before Bali, I would say you just described
how I used to do thingsperfectly, which was literally
especially for jobs writing downthe pros and cons right,
analyzing everything and alsoknowing inside that that's not
the way I make decisions,knowing full well inside that
that is not how I make decisions.
But I was not going to make amistake, I was going to do it
(38:58):
right, so nobody could shit onme.
It's pretty much how I wasliving my life.
That was the deal.
Angie Colee (39:06):
Another guest that I was recording with earlier.
We talked about that.
I think the difference betweenfitting in, which is basically
adjusting all of yourself tomeet somebody else's
expectations, versus belongingwhen you are exactly who you
feel like you need to be and youstill can walk into the room
and know I belong here withouthaving to change anything about
(39:28):
yourself it's like too many ofus conflate the two.
I conflated it too.
I've told that story many timesabout how early in my copy
career I wasn't, didn't have thewild hair, didn't have the
piercings.
I would show up in a blazer wasusually pretty quiet because
I've been told all my life I'm alittle bit too loud.
And then I told a story about amosh pit fight and people
started going who is this?
(39:49):
Why don't I know that about you?
Because I was told it was badand it was inappropriate and it
was unprofessional.
What yeah?
But after a while I got tired offitting in because it made me
miserable and it didn't seem tobe making anybody else happier.
So why the hell are we evenfucking doing this?
If you don't like me, don'tlisten to this show, Don't show
up Like.
(40:09):
If you see me in a room, walkto another room.
It's really that simple, guys.
We've got to stop pretendinglike we don't have any agency in
all of this stuff.
We got the snaps.
We got the snaps.
Well, that feels like a goodplace to like wrap it up in a
nice neat little bow.
Thank you so much for beingsuch a fantastic guest and for
following me all over the map onthat conversation, but I loved
(40:30):
it.
Please tell us more where wecan learn about you and your
business and the newsletterstuff.
Let's, let's, get into it.
Jen Baxter (40:36):
I know Well actually that's kind of the perfect note
, because so the newsletter isreally all about me coming up
with a writing practice formyself and kind of scratching
this itch about like beingconsistent and let's do this and
the writing circles.
It started out revolving aroundwriting circles, where that's
what we do.
We kind of do that on the page,just what Angie and I are doing
(40:57):
.
Right, we start with a prompt,but really it's about creating a
safe space that you can justrant and get it all out and
that's how you understand what'shappening inside, like all the
things that you're shoving downright.
So that's what the practice mywriting practice is about in my
writing service.
So if that excites, you comecheck me out on Substack at the
(41:18):
Spillful Scribbler.
However, it is also evolvedinto something else, which is
now that I've kind of grown.
Now that I have grown ithaven't kind of grown it, I have
grown it and I've learned a lotabout Substack in the process.
And also I've become an emailmarketer helping authors launch
their books.
I really love coaching peopleto start their own email list,
(41:42):
whether it's Substack.
Like I have a niche expertisein Substack right now, so I can
totally help you get started onthat.
But, like you know, convertkitI know that it's not about the
email platform.
It's actually about consistencyand it's a lot about what Angie
and I were talking about, like,okay, am I going to do this?
Because I'm betting on myselfand I realized that it's an
experiment and I have to writeevery week, or maybe I have to
write twice a month.
But actually I'm doing this fora reason inside me that, will
(42:07):
you know, equate to dollars atsome point, or equate to being a
better writer, or equate toconnecting with the right people
.
Whatever your goal is, like, Iactually am enjoying helping
those people go from zero to 500.
Right, so, like I kind ofdecided, like that's my thing.
That was.
What I struggled with the mostwas being the person that like
(42:27):
actually went from zero to 500and still hovered at around a
hundred and something for likeeight years because I was sort
of doing things.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
I'm sometimes writing aboutthis, sometimes I'm writing
about that, sometimes I'm notwriting for months, right, so
that's really like what theSubstack is about.
So, come on over, it's JenBaxter at Substack, or the
(42:50):
Skillful Scribbler.
And then also, if Substack issomething you're interested in,
I'm going to give Angie a linkand I've got a few starter
videos so that you can justcheck it out and see.
But also if writing is, if it'sthe writing that you're
struggling with, and especiallywriting consistently.
The writing circles are greatand you can check me out at
jenbaxtercom where I do a lot ofwriting coaching now and it's
(43:14):
really around your newsletter,email marketing and you know,
finding your voice is what Iwould actually say, like I'm
moving more into right, likethis time of betting on myself.
What's really kind of comingout is I really love people,
helping them find their voice onthe page, right, like you know,
how do you have a conversationlike this and how do you turn
that into a newsletter?
Angie Colee (43:34):
So I can't wait to see what I write about from this
.
Jen Baxter (43:37):
I know, because this is the stuff.
This is the stuff that peoplewant to read right now.
This is the connection that weneed, so I should set myself a
little goal of how manynewsletters can I turn in to
turn this podcast into about thetopics that we covered you know
, yeah, that would be fantastic.
Angie Colee (43:53):
Topics that we covered.
You know, yeah, that would befantastic, and I want, I want
every single one of them, please.
What a perfect little way topunctuate all of this the world
is dying for in this age ofartificial intelligence, in this
uh, you know sea of beige thatwe are trending toward, with
everybody starting to sound thesame Every time you got the
little gremlin that pops up inyour head and says this is not
(44:15):
the way it's supposed to be.
I'm supposed to sound like this, I'm supposed to do that.
This is what so-and-so saysFuck it, do it your way.
Permission to kick ass granted,there we go.
Jen Baxter (44:24):
Thank you, yeah, and that's, it's the.
That's the great place to do itright, like your own little
list where you get to have yourown little thoughts and ideas
and find the people that you cantalk to Exactly, exactly, well.
Angie Colee (44:38):
Thank you so much again for being such a fantastic
guest.
I really appreciate you.
Jen Baxter (44:42):
So fun, you're so fun to talk to.
Angie Colee (44:48):
That's all for now.
If you want to keep thatkick-ass energy high, please
take a minute to share thisepisode with someone that might
need a high-octane dose of youCan Do it.
Don't forget to rate, reviewand subscribe to the Permission
to Kick Ass podcast on ApplePodcasts, spotify and wherever
you stream your podcasts.
I'm your host, angie Coley, andI'm here rooting for you.
Thanks for listening and let'sgo kick some ass.
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show
that gives you a virtual seatat the bar for the real
conversations that happenbetween entrepreneurs.
I'm interviewing all kinds ofbusiness owners, from those just
a few years into freelancing toCEOs helming nine-figure
companies.
If you've ever worried thateveryone else just seems to get
it and you're missing somethingor messing things up, this show
(00:24):
is for you.
I'm your host, angie Coley, andlet's get to it and welcome
back to Permission to Kick Ass.
With me today is my friend, jenBaxter.
Say hi, hi.
I'm excited for this onebecause you've got a lot of fun
stuff to tell us, especiallyabout your recent trip to
Morocco.
But before we get into that,tell me a little bit more about
(00:47):
what you do.
Jen Baxter (00:48):
Hey, angie, I'm excited to be here and talk to
you because you always bring thegood vibes and I need them
right now, so that's great.
So I'm a copywriter and acontent strategist.
I have most recently workedwith authors, helping them do
their author websites and launchtheir books and create an
online community of readers, andI also have a regular
(01:09):
newsletter called the SkillfulScribbler.
That's on Substack, and I'vebeen growing that for the past
eight, nine months too.
Angie Colee (01:16):
Well, that's fantastic.
What got you into that?
Jen Baxter (01:19):
The newsletter or the copywriting, or both or both
, let's get into both newsletteror the copywriting, or both or
both, let's get into both.
So copywriting, I'd say,happened about 10 years ago.
I was traveling, which willbring it back to Morocco, but I
had a really stable corporatecareer in healthcare and I went
through some personal challengesfor a couple of years before my
(01:40):
parents died of cancer and atthe end of it I was like I just
I need to change some things.
So I bought a one-way ticket toBali, indonesia.
I was going to stay for threemonths, travel around Southeast
Asia, come back, look foranother job, do the right thing.
And I ended up staying forthree years and during that time
I ended up doing freelancewriting and photography and I
(02:01):
discovered Copyblogger and thelovely Sonia Simone and so right
.
So I came back from that andthis.
I sort of had this feeling.
I'm from San Francisco and Ijust had this feeling if I don't
sort of put my flag in theground now and start to at least
attempt to become a writer, afreelance writer, I will never
(02:21):
do it Like I will get a job andI'll go back into the same old
grind and I'll say I'm doing iton the side, but I won't really
do it.
So I landed in San Franciscobecause that's where I'm from
and that's my support system.
Not the brightest thing to tryto launch a freelance career in
the most expensive city in theUS.
I gotta say I don't advise it,but the support system is really
(02:44):
important, something like that.
So I just I started pitchingand I started doing some social
media stuff and I was listeningto a lot of copy blogger and
that's really how I startedlearning.
And then I connected with thelovely Sonia Simone, who has
been a mentor since then andfrom there I did some online
courses and then I connectedwith you because I really
(03:06):
started to understand the powerof all these great women
copywriters online that werementoring people.
So through Marcella Allison, Imet you really helpful and I
feel like that's part of whatkept me going was that I found
this group of women writersonline that I was like oh, I can
do this Like this, this fits.
You know what I mean.
(03:27):
So I just experimented.
I did a lot of content for realestate agents, I did some
copywriting for coaches, I didwebsites, like whatever I could
get my hands on, and a lot oftimes it was like a very fallow
time right, like definitely thehills and valleys, and then
(03:48):
COVID came and I was like allright, like many clients went
away, like it did for everybody,and I thought I've got to do
something that kind of helps meand helps other people, and I
had been doing these writingcircles for women for a long
time free writing circles, sonot about being a better writer,
not about writing your weeklyemails, but actually an
(04:10):
emotional release, about gettingstuff out on the page, about
helping you emotionally,mentally, physically, and also
to like calm your nervous systemright, to just kind of write to
prompts and get all that stuffthat you're stuffing down out.
And it went really well duringCOVID, right Like I had a lot of
women signing up becauseeverybody needed that safe space
(04:32):
.
So I created a safe space.
There's no talking or chatter.
We did that for a couple monthsand then I got a job in Austin,
texas, with a book publishingcompany, and so I picked up
everything at the end of 2021and said, okay, I'm going to
trust my gut and start this bookpublishing company, start with
(04:53):
it.
And I moved to Austin and didthat for about two years and
during that time that's when Ireally took my newsletter
seriously, working for Scribe,because I saw how important it
was for authors to have anewsletter and have an audience
when they launched their books.
I mean, there's just no wayaround it, right, and it was
something that I had fromcopywriting like I had been
(05:15):
doing it for years, but it wasso hard to keep it going and it
was also so hard to find theconsistency in it, right,
because sometimes I'm writingabout copywriting and then I
started doing the writingcircles and I'd write about that
, and then I did somephotography workshops with
companies and I'd write aboutthat.
So I sort of had this mishmashof like a little over a hundred
(05:36):
people who I'd write to, but Ididn't really have any goals
let's just put it that way Likethere was no strategy behind it.
So once I moved to Austin andstarted working with authors, I
was like, oh no, this, this issomething that, like, I have to
do for myself.
It was kind of that edge Ineeded to scratch for myself.
So then the job went awaybecause the company filed
(06:01):
bankruptcy and laid everybodyoff.
Angie Colee (06:03):
That is a juicy story, by the way.
Everybody like we're notsharing anything that hasn't
been extensively written aboutin the public.
If you want all of the tea andall of the drama and to more
deeply understand the giganticupheaval that was Jen's
experience with this company, golook up Scribe Media.
Jen Baxter (06:21):
Go look on LinkedIn.
Angie Colee (06:25):
It's crazy and this is why, like I constantly rail
about, business is hard right,I'm not trying.
I'm not one of those internetgurus out there telling you well
, if you just invest in mysystem, you're going to be
sipping Mai Tais on the beach.
You've all heard me rant aboutlaptops.
Go nowhere near the beach.
We're not at no, no sand in thelaptop.
(06:45):
No, working at the beach.
That's not happening.
But also, god, at the end of theday, I don't want to show up
someday and have the rug rippedout from under me because, you
know, a partner has abscondedwith all the all of the money, a
CEO has made a decision thatsuddenly means everybody is laid
off.
Like I could lose a client,that could be my nasty surprise
(07:08):
for the day.
But the likelihood that I'mgoing to be fired from my own
business any day that I show uppretty, I mean I'm in good with
the boss, she's me and I respectmy ability to hustle and I you
know this.
This phrase keeps coming backup to me and I feel the need to
mention it today.
When you build a business, trynot to build it on the wrong
(07:30):
things.
Right, it's not about theplatform, it's not about the
system.
It's not about the niche, it'snot about any of that.
A bird does not sit on a branchbecause it trusts the branch
not to break.
The bird trusts itself to flyaway Right, and I think that
that's the attitude that we allneed to bring into everything we
do, not just business.
(07:50):
But I trust myself to recoverfrom this.
This branch I'm sitting oncould break and I will be fine.
Jen Baxter (07:57):
No great yeah, Because I do feel like there are
inflection points in life whereyou have the choice of betting
on yourself I think that's thebest way to put it and sometimes
it doesn't make sense to bet onyourself, right?
I've been in financialsituations, health situations
where, like I have to say, whenI started the scribe job,
(08:17):
unbeknownst to me, like I had aheart arrhythmia condition that
I did not know about when Istarted and nobody at scribe
knew either the whole time.
So thank God, I had the healthinsurance.
Angie Colee (08:26):
And thank God I had a job.
Jen Baxter (08:27):
That was really easy for me to do.
Authors were happy, I enjoyedworking with them, I delivered
good websites, I did goodwriting for them and I could
also manage this.
So that was a huge I mean.
I do feel like.
In fact, I feel like this is agood conversation for us to have
.
I have learned that, like youhave, it's this fine balance of
(08:48):
learning when to bet on yourselfand then when to say, okay,
actually I need the extrasupport, and like I need the
health insurance and I need the401k, and that makes more sense
now because actually that willhelp me emotionally,
psychologically, to feel secureand get that regular paycheck.
But it doesn't mean that it'sgoing to always be that way.
There will come another point,another choice where it'll be
(09:12):
time to bet on myself.
Angie Colee (09:13):
Yes, yes, exactly, you know.
I'm glad that you brought thatup too, because the rants that I
was on before made it soundlike never trust a job.
And that is not the implication.
I'm not an always or neverperson, I am a you know, we have
all of these wonderful shadesof gray about humanity.
We have so many possibilities.
It's never either or.
I just said I'm not an alwaysor never person.
(09:35):
I said it's never either or,but I think you get what it like
.
We contain multitudesSimultaneously.
Things can be true Like I don'tthink a job is the way to go if
you want to have the kind ofsuccess that most of us dream
about, and also some people findsuccess at jobs, and also some
people don't really enjoy theprocess of entrepreneurship,
Like.
All of these things can be true.
It's up to us to figure out ourown path and what is worth the
(09:58):
struggle, the juice that's worththe squeeze.
Jen Baxter (10:01):
Yeah, I agree, and I would add to that too, in terms
of being a human like, we haveto be flexible about what we
need right.
So even if you have started abusiness that you are 100% in on
, there could come a time inyour family where you need to
take a step back and take asteady job in order to keep that
(10:23):
dream going, to actually makeit be healthy.
So I feel like that's a verybig learning that I have.
You know, I'm grateful that Iwent all in on the writing
because it has led me on like apersonal growth path that I
would not have experienced.
And it's more than just oh, youknow you decide whether or not
you want to be working foryourself or you want to work for
someone else.
And it's even more than just oh, you know you decide whether or
(10:43):
not you want to be working foryourself or you want to work for
someone else.
And it's even more than decidewhen it's about recognizing okay
, I'm tired and I'm not going tobe doing great stuff and the
pitching is not going to happenbecause I'm not bringing myself
to it.
How can I now make a betterchoice where I'm taking care of
everything so that I can relax alittle and then the writing
(11:04):
will get better, I'll get moreexcited about pitching, I'll
find more interestingopportunities, because I've kind
of taken care of that baselevel for now and to also set
yourself up, I mean, I thinkthis is where my newsletter has
come in in the last eight months.
Like before Scribe, beforeeverything imploded, I had
(11:25):
already started a sub stackbecause I was already thinking
to myself okay, here's the thing, now that I'm relaxed and now
that I actually feel financiallysecure and emotionally secure
and I'm in a good place, thiswon't last forever.
I know that right right, there'slike a sweet spot, right Right,
like things are going well,things are, you're being taken
care of, but it will change andwhen it changes, I need to have
(11:48):
something that I can lean into,where I'm betting on myself.
Right, because life goes backand forth.
So that's really how it startsmy free time.
Because I had this itch I hadto scratch, which is one, like I
think it's the email list forme that really I really need to
(12:10):
get under my belt.
Like I need to have thatbecause that I understand how
that works in terms of a writingpractice and I understand how
that works in terms of sellingthings and finding new clients
and having that regularfoundation, right.
But at the same time too, I waslike, if this goes away, like I
have got to have something elsewhere I can better myself in
(12:30):
place, and there were no signs.
I mean, I can say I'm not goingto say that there were no signs
, because obviously there weresigns.
Angie Colee (12:37):
There was probably some your unconscious picked up
on that.
Jen Baxter (12:40):
That's exactly what I was going to say Exactly Like
there must've been a lot ofsigns and I was, you know, being
positive about things going.
Oh no, it'll be fine, it'll befine.
And then, at the end of the day, like I was right, like I was
like, oh shit, I've got to dothis.
And so, instead of rushing tofind another job right away in a
panic because that's when Imean, I've learned, that's when
(13:03):
you know, I want to go findanother job right away and I had
enough saved up and I had thisnewsletter started where I was
like I've got to bet on myselffor a couple months and I need
to at least figure this out andhave my own foundation, and then
I'll get another job.
Like it's not, it won't be acrisis thing.
It'll be like, okay, I'm ready.
I'm actually ready for a steadypaycheck now.
(13:24):
I'm ready for a one-day, like Iwant the health insurance, and
then I'll kind of bring my bestgame for you.
So I do feel like.
I do feel like entrepreneurs ingeneral.
We don't talk about that enough.
You know what I mean that thisgoing back and forth, depending
on what life throws at you.
Angie Colee (13:43):
I think there are a lot of people that feel a lot
of shame.
I know I've certainly hadguests on where we talked about
that Like, does that make me afailure?
Am I allowed to call myself anentrepreneur?
I remember that one that's oneof I'm not supposed to say
favorites, but that was one ofmy favorite conversations
because I think that that comesup a lot, especially in creative
circles.
That's Carolyn and Anian inepisode seven and you know she's
(14:07):
.
She's somebody who is like you,freelanced a lot and gone in
house and was like do you know?
That was something I was scaredof.
Do I get to call myself anentrepreneur If I've got a day
job?
The answer is yes.
You get to call yourself anentrepreneur If you feel like an
entrepreneur.
What show were you listening to?
It's called permission to kickass.
There's your little aside,right.
You get to call yourselfwhatever you want to call
(14:29):
yourself.
Just don't call yourself ashitty name in front of me,
because you know I'll get up ona soapbox and tell you that's
not true.
Steps forward, steps back,steps, side steps.
This journey is full of all ofthem.
Missed steps, right.
Nobody knows where this isgoing to go.
All we can do is go.
I'm setting my target for thereand I think that's.
(14:51):
I think I've figured out a wayto get there, and you have to
adjust along the way.
It's all you can do.
Jen Baxter (14:55):
I know that is such good advice.
That is such good advicebecause I do feel like when
you're struggling and you're ina little bit of panic mode
because you are struggling, youfeel at least I have felt like
everybody already knows thesteps and I got left out of, I
missed that class, I didn't takethe right notes right, or I
(15:17):
didn't take the right onlinecourse because I missed the
steps and now I'm skipping oversteps trying to catch up with
everybody else, and actuallyit's not like that.
Angie Colee (15:28):
Yeah, some people have an escalator.
They never had to worry aboutthe steps.
And some people have, like alittle step ladders worth of
steps.
And some people have, like,have you ever been to Columbia?
There was a rock I climbedthere called Del Pinole, with
over 600 steps.
So some people have Del Pinoleclimbing up and up and up and up
in a zigzag.
(15:48):
The steps don't exist.
I was talking with anotherguest about that earlier.
We got to stop expecting.
If I put my coin in thismachine and I push the right
sequence of buttons, myhappiness will come out.
I have followed all of thesteps, I have done all of the
steps.
I have done all of the things.
Why did I not get that, with allof the love I have, is
(16:09):
entitlement and it's unrealisticand it's like the thing that we
I really and I say this as muchto myself as to anybody
listening we have got to stoppretending like it's possible to
have all the answers.
Whether someone else has allthe answers or if we only work
(16:30):
hard enough, we can come up withall the answers.
None of us knows what the hellwe're doing.
We have a pretty good idea ofwhat should happen next, but you
know I've told this ties backinto kind of like guarantees
with copywriting.
I've had clients ask me beforewhat can you guarantee me?
I said I can't guarantee youanything Really.
And they're like, well, whyshould I work with you?
And I said, look, let me breakdown guarantees and why I won't
(16:52):
do it and why.
I think anybody who isguaranteeing you you really got
to look at their motivations andtheir track record to see if
they're trying to pull one overon you, because guarantees are
pretty hard in this industry.
You want to know why?
I know Because in January andFebruary of 2021, hell, aka
Texas, froze over.
A lot of marketing campaignsfailed that day.
(17:13):
A lot of really good marketingcampaigns failed that day when
Texas went off the grid andfroze.
So there are no guarantees.
A pandemic happened in 2020that a lot of people are still
reeling from.
There are multiple world warshappening around the world right
now.
Nobody knows what's going tohappen.
So we got to stop pretendinglike there are steps somewhere
(17:37):
and if only I discover the step,the steps, I will finally get
my happiness.
You can be happy right here andright now, and it may be a bit
of work on self and to like,refocus on the things that
you've got going for you insteadof stressing about the things
that you don't have yet yet.
But there you go.
We're just going to get rantytoday, that's well, I'm rancy or
(18:00):
not.
Jen Baxter (18:01):
I just had an aha moment that I had to write down
while you were on that, becauseI've never seen, I've never
thought of it like entitlement.
So, thank you, I'm going toboom like I'm going to have to
sit with that for a minute LikeI want to have one on this
Namaste.
Hang on for a second Pause, hitpause, because I've never
thought of expecting to know allthe steps as entitlement and I
(18:26):
guess you're right, like I thinkyou're right.
I mean, I, I have a lot of that.
I mean I know I have a lot ofthat in my life already.
So I'm not it's not like, oh, Ididn't know, but I didn't
understand that, that kind ofthinking.
I never realized that before.
But I would agree with you onthat.
Actually, because it is.
It's an experiment.
It's not a series of steps.
Angie Colee (18:46):
It's actually an experiment of trying different
things, paying attention to whatthe outcomes are and then
making decisions based on thatpractice is built around that,
that not everybody has the samesupport system, like you
mentioned access to resources,the ability to move fast, the
(19:11):
ability to absorb losses right,because if you're playing from a
I don't have much money, I'mgoing to try stuff.
Some people will approach itfrom a well, I got nothing to
lose, I'm going to throweverything I have into it.
And some people will approachit from a well, I've got to
protect what little I havebecause I can't afford to be
homeless on the streets.
So they will make more cautious, smaller, slower steps forward.
(19:32):
Does that make their journeyany less important or less
impactful or less meaningfulthan somebody who shot for the
stars?
I don't think so.
I think we've all got a part toplay, no matter how fast or
slow we're going.
I, just I, and this is, like Isaid again, as much to me as to
(19:53):
anybody listening.
I constantly feel like I haveto remind myself that my value
was just having thisconversation yesterday with a
mastermind, so it's super timely.
My value, your value, listener,your value, jen, is not measured
by what you can do for people.
You are already valuable.
Your business does not have tobe successful for you to be
valuable.
You do not have to have all ofthe money in the world to be
valuable.
You don't have to earn this.
(20:14):
You have it already.
And if there are people outthere telling you that you're
not valuable, fuck those people.
Not literally, they haven'tearned that, but like no, no.
You are a miracle.
Yeah, we that, but like no, noyou are a miracle.
Jen Baxter (20:27):
Yeah, we're going to get ranty today, I agree with
you.
I agree with you about that,although I forget that a hundred
percent when I have to pay myrent and the Cobra insurance.
So that's just why I'm heretoday with you, cause I'm like
Angie will totally cheer me up.
So what I want to come back toagain the other thing you said
that I wrote down is about theguarantee people asking for
(20:48):
copyrighted guarantees.
So this was a huge aha momentwhen I decided, oh, you know,
the newsletter is actuallyhaving a renaissance right now,
but like, I'm gonna hop on thatbecause I've come far enough and
it's such a good writingpractice and I understand the
basics.
And the aha moment was look ittakes.
There are many different factorsthat make your thing sell and I
(21:13):
can be the best writer in theworld.
Angie can be the most strategic, focused, I mean, and she's
done it right, like cha-chingcopywriter you have.
But if you don't have the rightlist of people and the right
offer for those people andsomething really valuable in you
that connects with them, ain'tlike, ain't no writer gonna help
(21:33):
you make money, like it justdoesn't work that way.
And it's like it took me on.
It took me a like a lot of hard, the lesson of hard knocks to
realize, oh, it's not just me,actually, but what is me is it's
on me to tell that person, youknow what.
There's some pieces that youreally need to place, and if you
(21:54):
don't have those, mycopywriting is not going to help
you as much as you want.
Right, and that's like a bigthing to a know and another
thing to be able to say tosomeone when you, you know, want
the job.
Angie Colee (22:06):
Oh yes, oh yes.
Jen Baxter (22:09):
Right, but it's the truth.
It is the truth Right.
And it doesn't mean that thatperson can't get those things in
place Right?
It just means that they don'thave them.
Therefore, you have to tempertheir expectations about the
results.
Angie Colee (22:23):
Yeah, for anybody who has never heard me rant
about copy before, if you'rebrand new to the show,
copywriters are specialtywriters who focus on marketing
and advertising.
So a lot of us work in sales.
But there's there's also theMad Men branch, right, that do
big marketing campaigns andGeico and Superbowl commercials
and stuff like that.
Jen and I well, you, youmentioned that you're in content
(22:43):
I'm more direct response.
So like sales oriented, and I'mvery proud to say I've sold
over $100 million worth ofproduct and I've done it without
selling my soul, like I havevery much stood on.
If I can't sell this to mylittle old grandma without
feeling like a piece of shit, Iwill not sell it.
I have quit jobs for that.
(23:04):
I have refused to run campaignsfor that.
I've parted ways with clientsand lost like five figures a
month in revenue because Iwouldn't do that.
So, like there's a way to be inalignment with your soul and
sell stuff, I feel very stronglyabout that and I fell early in
my career for that line of likea copy is the magic, it's what
(23:24):
makes it work.
It is not.
And anybody that tries to sellyou that line, they're literally
just trying to get money fromyou right, you need to have an
offer, you need to have peoplewho want to work with you and
want that thing that you have tooffer.
And once those things are inplace, what I do, what Jen does,
can take it, take your resultsand exponentially, multiply them
(23:46):
exponentially, like I've doneit exponentially.
I'm not even lying, but I can'twrite magic.
I really wish I could, becauseI'm a Disney girl at heart, but
I can't.
Jen Baxter (23:59):
It's funny, yeah, so of course.
And that I mean I feel likeactually you becoming a mentor
in the Marcella Allison group Iknow it's been through many
iterations, right, but was sohelpful to me because I so
respect who you've worked forand who you've worked with and
the results and then to hearthat and understand that like
(24:21):
that's what a mentor does, right, it level, sets your
expectations about what'spossible and then it helps you
move forward in a realistic way,saying, oh, it's actually not
about this thing, that I thoughtit was about it's actually
about me just taking the nextstep and understanding what my
strengths are and seeing theplaying field and being able to
explain that playing fieldrealistically to my clients and
(24:46):
like I saw this new skepticismthat's got, I mean, obviously a
lot of the shrinkage that'shappening now in the marketplace
and, like the slowdown in manyof the industries that I'm
involved in, we're recordingthis in May of 2024.
Angie Colee (24:59):
I'm not sure when it's going to air yet, but like
there's there's a lot ofhesitancy and there's a lot of
skepticism, especially incoaching and online marketing,
online businesses and thingslike that, and I think
well-deserved, because for toolong there were people out there
that would say anything to makethe sale, yeah, and they didn't
care about the results, theyjust cared about the sale.
And so I've speculated.
(25:21):
I was like, ok, this, thispendulum is going to swing from
wild West to.
We can say whatever we want inthe name of being able to go.
I sold all the things right, umto no, like how, how do you
sell when all of the tricksdon't work because the audience
is too savvy for your tricks?
That's how you know when you'rereally skilled.
Jen Baxter (25:40):
So it's interesting.
So what that makes me thinkabout is, um, one of the ways
that I bet on myself after thescribe thing imploded and I
decided, ok, I'm going toembrace the newsletter.
Renaissance is.
I joined Shrimp Club with LauraBelgray.
So a little shout out to Laura,and basically because I needed
to laugh and I really wanted tosurround myself with the support
(26:02):
group, right.
But this is the thing Laura isreally good at entertaining
people.
Like her emails are funny,right.
And even when you get a lot ofsales emails which inevitably
sorry, but they a lot of salesemails a sequence can get
annoying when you're not, youknow, up for that.
But like, the personal storiesthat come before them are still
(26:24):
good, right.
And so that's where I was likeyou know, I really want to get
good at those personal storiesbecause I had gotten that
feedback from other people,people who are on my list, old
clients and stuff who wereopening my emails all the time.
But not even like for a women'swriting group, I had some men
photographers opening it.
So I emailed this guy, theseguys, and I was like I just have
(26:45):
to ask, like what is it thatyou like?
Like I'm so curious, it'll helpme.
And they were like oh, I lovehow you can tell stories about
your life and then you pull itaround to writing or you pull it
around to something you know Imay not be interested in your
group, but actually I just lovegetting to know you like that.
And so I was like, ah, okay, sothat's kind of what.
(27:07):
Obviously, what I'm doing, thatI like to do, that's resonating
with people right.
So now I'm gonna bet on myselfand learn from the person who I
I think does that best on theinternet right now.
Like there are a lot of peoplethat do really well, but Laura,
we like she makes you laugh.
So I feel like that is whatI've learned in the last six
months.
People really want thatconnection.
I mean, you know what we'retalking about with Laura, and
Trill Club is different, becauseit is.
(27:29):
You do have to have a, you haveto be at a certain financial
point in your business to investin something like that.
But what I've realized is thatthis is what people are
responding to.
They want more one-on-one stuff, they want more real connection
.
They want funny personalstories, because we're all
struggling with a lot of thethings that you and I have been
talking about and feeling likeokay, I'm tired of online
(27:52):
courses and steps, I can't doany more steps, I just want to
meet people and have the supportsystem.
Oh man, this is, this is all sogreat.
Angie Colee (27:59):
Um, where do I want to go next?
This is all so great.
Where do I want to go next?
I've written down so manythings.
One I didn't know that you hadlike okay, so this is the ADHD
portion of the conversation.
Right, I'm just going to abruptleft turn.
Here we go.
I had no idea that you justlike up and went to Bali.
That is fantastic.
(28:19):
What inspired that?
Jen Baxter (28:22):
Angie, that's such a perfect.
You're really going back now,but it's such a personal.
I'm just gonna say it.
It's gonna, I mean, the rightpeople will listen to this and
resonate with it.
And if you don't resonate withthis, probably shouldn't, you
know, hang it together, but so.
I was at a very real point in mylife where I was um talk about
following the steps, like I hadcarved out a nice little box for
(28:44):
myself and would not allowmyself to get out of it.
And part of that was necessity,which was, you know, I had two
older parents that were dying ofcancer pretty much around the
same time and it was reallystressful.
And I had a job in healthcare,so I was living in a hospital 24
seven.
I was on the business side, butstill I was talking to doctors
(29:05):
all the time and doingpresentations.
And so I hit a point after thatwhere, after they passed, like
I really needed time off, but Iwas not.
I was.
My identity was so wrapped upin my career.
I felt like that was the onlysecurity I had.
And so a friend of mine said tome you know, I'm beginning
(29:26):
massages from this woman.
Yeah, you know how to go.
I think it'll really help you.
And so I went to this woman inSan Francisco who was basically
an energy worker and I had neverbeen to one, I'd never heard of
one, and like it was really thebeginning of my spiritual
awakening in a lot of ways,because I was very much in a box
and I had been in therapy and Iobviously knew I needed a lot
(29:46):
of support during that time.
But I went to this woman.
She never gave me a massage,she never touched me in like the
two years I went to work.
She just did a lot of differentthings.
And all this stuff startedchanging.
Like a whole series of thingshappened and at some point I
said I feel like I'm supposed toquit my job and like travel and
(30:08):
I had had watched a few friendsdo that we were all single,
none of us had kids and over thecourse of my parents being
really ill, I'd watch people goto India and Thailand and
Vietnam was a big thing, and Iwas seeing all this on Facebook
and I was thinking to myselfliterally like every day, like
that will never be my life, thatwill never be me, that's okay.
And then one of them was likesister, it's time you have to
(30:29):
quit your job and go travel.
Like you, you're not married,you don't have kids, you're
doing this to yourself, right?
You have plenty of money rightnow.
Like, you're fine, go travel.
I was like really, and I wastraining for this the San
Francisco to LA, the AIDS ride,the bike ride and I fell off my
bike a year to the date that mymom died and I had to take time
off for her.
(30:50):
So on the that anniversary andtaking that time off, I was like
recovering from a broken wristand I was having all these sort
of awakenings and I said to thiswoman like I think I'm supposed
to quit my job.
She's like that's the firstthing that you've said since I
met you that has made any sense.
I said I don't, I don't evenknow where I go or what I do.
(31:11):
I don't, I don't even know.
She's like we'll get on thetable and we'll ask and we'll
figure it out.
So I caught on her table, shemoved her hands around, she did
some stuff and she said Bali,I'm getting Bali, there's a
group of people you need to meetin Bali.
And like that was the firstmoment.
I guess I really that was notthe first moment in my life.
I've trusted myself once ortwice before then but that was
(31:31):
one of those pivotal momentswhere I'm like I've got nothing
else, I'm just going to do it.
And I started talking to peoplelike that.
Like I talked to I had afinancial advisor and I said
that to her and she said that'sa great idea, like if advisor.
And I said that to her and shesaid that's a great idea, like
if you need permission to dothat, I'm giving you permission.
I talked to my boss and my bosssaid you know what, if you were
anyone else at this stage intheir career, I'd try to talk
(31:53):
them out of it, seeing whatyou've been through in the last
few years.
He's like if that way, that'swhat your intuition is telling
you, you've got to follow it.
It's I.
He's like I've lived a longtime.
This, this is what you have todo.
And I was like all right, sothat was how it happened.
I mean, I'm not kidding, I gotthat information, I trusted it.
I knew life had to change.
That was in my sphere.
(32:15):
Like that was the thing.
That was the next step for meto take.
It was just a matter of whetheror not I would let myself take
it.
And I did, and take it and Idid.
And once I got there, I got oneon a one-way ticket, because a
friend of mine said you know,look, if you can afford it, just
buy the one-way ticket.
She's like you know, don't,don't.
I was going to come back forsomeone's wedding and she said,
(32:35):
unless they're your sister oryour best friend, they will not
know that you're not there ontheir special day.
Like, buy the one-way ticketand if you want to come home
because you're scared or it'snot going well or whatever, you
can come home from anywhere andit's not a big deal.
So I did and then I had stayedfor like three years.
It's crazy.
Angie Colee (32:55):
I love that it was amazing.
Jen Baxter (32:57):
It was, in so many ways I mean, made.
Obviously it made a hugedifference, but it has given me
a foundation inside to check inwith.
Am I not doing this because I'mso scared?
Or am I not doing this becauseit's actually not the next thing
for me to do like the door'snot open?
What's the difference betweenthe door being open and me being
(33:19):
too afraid to step through it?
or it actually just not beingopen and I need to look
somewhere else for where thereis no door, because by no
account was there any reasonthat I should end up in that
experience well, and I love thatdistinction.
Angie Colee (33:35):
Like, looking at this, is there really something
that, like, that door is notopen to me, or is this just fear
talking?
I think we don't really examineour fears often enough to be
able to be that real withourselves.
And I've had similar instancesOne I've talked about on this
show before and it's sointeresting to me that both of
(33:56):
our decisions like that happenedin or around San Francisco.
I was living in San Jose areaat the time when, basically,
like I had to either go home andmove back in with parents and
go back to waiting tables or Ihad to, like, take a stand and I
actually moved into my car andwas homeless for a little while.
But the day that I lost theapartment and had to turn over
(34:19):
keys is the day that I got myfirst part-time junior
copywriting role.
So, like there was something inthe universe, there was
something within me that justsaid stay here, and it didn't
make.
This is the point that I'mtrying to circle around to.
Sometimes things that you feelcalled to do don't make a damn
bit of sense to anybody else inyour life, or they only make
sense to a few people that youtrust, and I'm glad that the
(34:39):
people that you asked werepeople that you could trust with
that dream, who wouldn't golike, oh my God, that's dumb.
Here are all the reasons whydon't do that.
That's usually their fearCrapping all over you.
I was grateful for it.
So, like I left San Francisco,I had an abusive relationship
there I decided to escape toJacksonville, florida, get as
far away as possible, right, andI had a girlfriend there who I
(35:04):
was talking with, a man that Ihad been flirting with for like
20 years Shout out to Mark ifyou're listening and he he's
from New Zealand.
And he jokingly told me hey,you should meet me in Fiji,
that's like halfway.
And I was like that's nothalfway, that's like three hours
for you and like 30 hours forme.
I told this to my friend inpassing and she goes you should
meet him in Fiji, why not?
You're young, you're single,you got a job, you can go to
(35:26):
Fiji, it's fine.
No-transcript, right?
There's no reason I can't go toFiji.
Like, all of the excuses thatI've come up with are bullshit.
So I would have to take timeoff work.
I've got a new job, okay, cool.
So you take time off work andyou tell them.
I'm fortunate enough to begoing to Fiji.
I'm really excited about this.
(35:47):
Thanks, thanks for theopportunity.
I'll make it work, all right.
Uh, go hang out with people Idon't really know very well in
Fiji.
Cool, it's an adventure.
I don't know anybody in Fiji.
We'll just explore and see whathappens.
Right, and I know that, likethere's, there's definitely some
privilege involved in this.
Right, I had the money, I hadthe time, I had the job, I had
the support.
(36:08):
Not everybody can uproot and goto Bali and Fiji, and I totally
understand that.
But does this stop the factthat, like, maybe you need to
move to this state, next stateover, maybe you need to go to a
new city, maybe you need to takesome time off work and ask
yourself if this is really thepath for you?
Right, everybody's journey isdifferent.
I'm not saying that you need touproot to another country or
(36:32):
put it all on a credit card oranything like that, but I'm a
big fan of trusting that littlevoice inside you that says this
is the next step, even when itdoesn't make sense.
Like, sit with it, examine.
Is this fear talking?
Is this excitement talking?
Is this an option that I couldactually take.
I wonder what would happen ifand treat it exactly like you
(36:53):
said earlier, jen, as anexperiment.
See what happens.
Jen Baxter (36:56):
So what I love about what you just shared, too, is
the timing of this.
The timing is always a signright.
So you gave up the keys to yourapartment, you're in your car
and that's when the job camethrough.
That is a timing that ought tonot be ignored.
Angie Colee (37:17):
The irony of that one is not lost on me, like I've
told people before.
Why I think that that is soimportant is if I hadn't trusted
myself, I would have been onthe road to Texas when the job
offer came through.
I literally would not have beenthere to accept the job if I
hadn't trusted myself.
Sorry and I interrupted you.
You sounded like you were on aroll.
Please continue.
Jen Baxter (37:38):
No, that that was the role, that was it.
Like I was listening to whatyou were saying and I'm like oh,
these are the inflection points, that where you get the I mean,
it's like the experiment thatwe're talking about you get the
feedback.
You get the feedback that like,yes, that's the, that's the
step, that's the door that wasopen.
Angie Colee (37:55):
Yes, and it's only possible to see whether it was
the right step or not afteryou've already taken it.
And I think that's the key too,that so many of us we sit here
before taking that step and weanalyze and evaluate every
single possible pro and con andworst case scenario and make all
the plans and stuff like thatand never actually take the step
(38:16):
.
And sometimes it's just assimple as taking the step and
see what happens.
Does that give us more data?
Did nothing happen?
Did everything happen?
Did it all come crashing down?
Okay, well, maybe that was abad step.
Is it recoverable?
Absolutely, as long as you'vegot a breath in your body, you
can figure things out, yeah.
Jen Baxter (38:36):
I mean before Bali, I would say you just described
how I used to do thingsperfectly, which was literally
especially for jobs writing downthe pros and cons right,
analyzing everything and alsoknowing inside that that's not
the way I make decisions,knowing full well inside that
that is not how I make decisions.
But I was not going to make amistake, I was going to do it
(38:58):
right, so nobody could shit onme.
It's pretty much how I wasliving my life.
That was the deal.
Angie Colee (39:06):
Another guest that I was recording with earlier.
We talked about that.
I think the difference betweenfitting in, which is basically
adjusting all of yourself tomeet somebody else's
expectations, versus belongingwhen you are exactly who you
feel like you need to be and youstill can walk into the room
and know I belong here withouthaving to change anything about
(39:28):
yourself it's like too many ofus conflate the two.
I conflated it too.
I've told that story many timesabout how early in my copy
career I wasn't, didn't have thewild hair, didn't have the
piercings.
I would show up in a blazer wasusually pretty quiet because
I've been told all my life I'm alittle bit too loud.
And then I told a story about amosh pit fight and people
started going who is this?
(39:49):
Why don't I know that about you?
Because I was told it was badand it was inappropriate and it
was unprofessional.
What yeah?
But after a while I got tired offitting in because it made me
miserable and it didn't seem tobe making anybody else happier.
So why the hell are we evenfucking doing this?
If you don't like me, don'tlisten to this show, Don't show
up Like.
(40:09):
If you see me in a room, walkto another room.
It's really that simple, guys.
We've got to stop pretendinglike we don't have any agency in
all of this stuff.
We got the snaps.
We got the snaps.
Well, that feels like a goodplace to like wrap it up in a
nice neat little bow.
Thank you so much for beingsuch a fantastic guest and for
following me all over the map onthat conversation, but I loved
(40:30):
it.
Please tell us more where wecan learn about you and your
business and the newsletterstuff.
Let's, let's, get into it.
Jen Baxter (40:36):
I know Well actually that's kind of the perfect note
, because so the newsletter isreally all about me coming up
with a writing practice formyself and kind of scratching
this itch about like beingconsistent and let's do this and
the writing circles.
It started out revolving aroundwriting circles, where that's
what we do.
We kind of do that on the page,just what Angie and I are doing
(40:57):
.
Right, we start with a prompt,but really it's about creating a
safe space that you can justrant and get it all out and
that's how you understand what'shappening inside, like all the
things that you're shoving downright.
So that's what the practice mywriting practice is about in my
writing service.
So if that excites, you comecheck me out on Substack at the
(41:18):
Spillful Scribbler.
However, it is also evolvedinto something else, which is
now that I've kind of grown.
Now that I have grown ithaven't kind of grown it, I have
grown it and I've learned a lotabout Substack in the process.
And also I've become an emailmarketer helping authors launch
their books.
I really love coaching peopleto start their own email list,
(41:42):
whether it's Substack.
Like I have a niche expertisein Substack right now, so I can
totally help you get started onthat.
But, like you know, convertkitI know that it's not about the
email platform.
It's actually about consistencyand it's a lot about what Angie
and I were talking about, like,okay, am I going to do this?
Because I'm betting on myselfand I realized that it's an
experiment and I have to writeevery week, or maybe I have to
write twice a month.
But actually I'm doing this fora reason inside me that, will
(42:07):
you know, equate to dollars atsome point, or equate to being a
better writer, or equate toconnecting with the right people
.
Whatever your goal is, like, Iactually am enjoying helping
those people go from zero to 500.
Right, so, like I kind ofdecided, like that's my thing.
That was.
What I struggled with the mostwas being the person that like
(42:27):
actually went from zero to 500and still hovered at around a
hundred and something for likeeight years because I was sort
of doing things.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
I'm sometimes writing aboutthis, sometimes I'm writing
about that, sometimes I'm notwriting for months, right, so
that's really like what theSubstack is about.
So, come on over, it's JenBaxter at Substack, or the
(42:50):
Skillful Scribbler.
And then also, if Substack issomething you're interested in,
I'm going to give Angie a linkand I've got a few starter
videos so that you can justcheck it out and see.
But also if writing is, if it'sthe writing that you're
struggling with, and especiallywriting consistently.
The writing circles are greatand you can check me out at
jenbaxtercom where I do a lot ofwriting coaching now and it's
(43:14):
really around your newsletter,email marketing and you know,
finding your voice is what Iwould actually say, like I'm
moving more into right, likethis time of betting on myself.
What's really kind of comingout is I really love people,
helping them find their voice onthe page, right, like you know,
how do you have a conversationlike this and how do you turn
that into a newsletter?
Angie Colee (43:34):
So I can't wait to see what I write about from this
.
Jen Baxter (43:37):
I know, because this is the stuff.
This is the stuff that peoplewant to read right now.
This is the connection that weneed, so I should set myself a
little goal of how manynewsletters can I turn in to
turn this podcast into about thetopics that we covered you know
, yeah, that would be fantastic.
Angie Colee (43:53):
Topics that we covered.
You know, yeah, that would befantastic, and I want, I want
every single one of them, please.
What a perfect little way topunctuate all of this the world
is dying for in this age ofartificial intelligence, in this
uh, you know sea of beige thatwe are trending toward, with
everybody starting to sound thesame Every time you got the
little gremlin that pops up inyour head and says this is not
(44:15):
the way it's supposed to be.
I'm supposed to sound like this, I'm supposed to do that.
This is what so-and-so saysFuck it, do it your way.
Permission to kick ass granted,there we go.
Jen Baxter (44:24):
Thank you, yeah, and that's, it's the.
That's the great place to do itright, like your own little
list where you get to have yourown little thoughts and ideas
and find the people that you cantalk to Exactly, exactly, well.
Angie Colee (44:38):
Thank you so much again for being such a fantastic
guest.
I really appreciate you.
Jen Baxter (44:42):
So fun, you're so fun to talk to.
Angie Colee (44:48):
That's all for now.
If you want to keep thatkick-ass energy high, please
take a minute to share thisepisode with someone that might
need a high-octane dose of youCan Do it.
Don't forget to rate, reviewand subscribe to the Permission
to Kick Ass podcast on ApplePodcasts, spotify and wherever
you stream your podcasts.
I'm your host, angie Coley, andI'm here rooting for you.
Thanks for listening and let'sgo kick some ass.
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