February 17, 2025 • 48 mins
Dr. Kirk Pomper, a Professor of Horticulture at Kentucky State University, is an expert on the pawpaw. He takes us on a journey through the lush history and remarkable qualities of this native North American fruit. With its unique tropical notes the pawpaw stands out as both a horticultural gem and a culinary curiosity.
Together, we unravel the complexities of cultivating pawpaws, exploring everything from grafting techniques to the challenges of pollination. Learn how these trees rely on less-than-common pollinators like flies and beetles, and the surprising tricks enthusiasts use to attract them. Dr. Pomper shares insights into breeding strategies aimed at overcoming obstacles like disease and perishability, all while striving to enhance yield and fruit quality. It's a fascinating look at how innovation and passion intersect in the world of plant science.
Finally, we glimpse into the future of pawpaw commercialization, as breeders work tirelessly to refine this fruit for broader appeal and distribution. From improving storage methods to refining sweetness and flavor, the path to making pawpaws a household name is filled with excitement and opportunity. As consumer interest in local and exotic foods grows, the pawpaw might just find its place in gardens and kitchens across America. Join us for a lively conversation bridging the past, present, and potential future of this captivating fruit!
To learn more, read the article "Comparison of Grafting and Budding Propagation Techniques for Cultivars of the North American Pawpaw" published in HortTechnology https://doi.org/10.21273/HORTTECH05463-24.
Visit the Kentucky State University Pawpaw Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/ksu.pawpaw.
View "All ABout Pawpaws" at https://youtu.be/VCU4yktHvik?si=RFXMaS6e8DeQa2tV.
Learn more about the American Society for Horticultural Science (ASHS) at https://ashs.org/.
HortTechnology, HortScience and the Journal of the American Society for Horticultural Science are all open-access and peer-reviewed journals, published by the American Society of Horticultural Science (ASHS). Find them at journals.ashs.org.
Consider becoming an ASHS member at https://ashs.org/page/Becomeamember!
You can also find the official webpage for Plants, People, Science at ashs.org/plantspeoplesciencepodcast, and we encourage you to send us feedback or suggestions at https://ashs.org/webinarpodcastsuggestion.
Podcast transcripts are available at https://plantspeoplescience.buzzsprout.com.
On LinkedIn find Sam Humphrey at linkedin.com/in/samson-humphrey. Curt Rom is at https://www.linkedin.com/in/curt-rom-611085134/. Lena Wilson is at https://www.linkedin.com/in/lena-wilson-2531a5141/.
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Samson Humphrey (00:12):
Welcome to Plants People Science, a podcast
by the American Society forHorticultural Science where we
talk about all thingshorticulture.
I'm your co-host, SamsonHumphrey, a PhD student
researcher at the University ofTennessee, Knoxville, along with
my co-host, Curt Rom.
Curt, how are you doing?
Curt Rom (00:29):
Hi, Sam, I'm doing real well.
Yeah, I'm a universityprofessor of horticulture,
really emphasizing pomology,fruit crops, but kind of a
generalist here at theUniversity of Arkansas.
But I'm doing well.
You know, it's the last threeweeks of the semester and
there's always a lot ofexcitement with the first three
(00:49):
weeks of the semester, and thenthere's a new level of
excitement, bordering on anxiety, with the last three weeks of
the semester.
But I promise you, professorslook forward to the end of the
semester every bit as much asthe students do.
And of course we're in theholiday season just upon us.
Samson Humphrey (01:08):
I'm surprised to hear that you're excited for
it.
Curt Gardener, Curt Rom.
Curt Rom (01:14):
Oh well, you know, I should tell you that, since I
was talking about my gardens, wehaven't had a frost yet.
So in my garden, my hostas arestill growing, I still have
pansies, I have impatiens, Ihave lantana, and I'm
maintaining them, I'm stillcultivating them.
I have marigolds still growing,I have coreopsis still growing.
(01:40):
What's even more exciting, everyholiday season I buy
poinsettias, then at the end ofthe holiday season, I kind of
prune them back and I kind ofspoil them a little bit.
I take them, put them in mygreenhouse and then, as soon as
we get past the first frost, Iplant them in my garden.
(02:00):
I plant them in what I calloutside of the fence garden,
which I don't give as much careto, and there's deer pressure.
Well, poinsettias are a deerresistant plant and for the
first time ever since we've nothit frost, we're at about 230
days, 240 days.
(02:21):
My poinsettias in my garden arestarting to turn color because
of the day length.
I've never, ever had that theyalways have gotten.
Usually our first frost isOctober 10th, so we're a full
month late on our frost.
Samson Humphrey (02:37):
We're going to have to get a picture of you in
front of those plants, like asthe as the picture for this for
today's episode.
That's hilarious.
Curt Rom (02:44):
Well, it's fun.
Actually, part of the reason Igrow them is because they're a
fun plant to propagate in myclasses, and so I always take
cuttings and then we'llpropagate them and we'll try a
couple different methods ofpropagation.
But they do root pretty easily,especially in various forms of
(03:04):
synthetic substrates and media.
So it's fun.
I have a dozen little six inchpoinsettias.
Since I don't do that tillSeptember, they're only going to
be six or eight inches tall andspread.
So I have potted poinsettiasI'll bring into my office.
They're also starting to turncolor because of daylight
(03:25):
poinsettias I'll bring into myoffice.
Samson Humphrey (03:26):
They're also starting to turn color because
of daylight.
Oh, that's exciting.
I have an exciting gardeningnews flash for you too, kurt.
As you know, I am not agardener in my personal life,
but during my master's I didstrawberry research and I had
this extra research plant that Itotally abused.
I didn't water it for two weeks.
I like increased thetemperature to like 30 degrees
(03:48):
and then I decreased thetemperature for like two weeks
to 18 degrees.
I think it was very.
It was a cold temperature forthis plant that wasn't getting
water and should have died.
It's it's peers.
The other plants did die, butthis plant survived all ons and
it now has its first flower.
So I have, I think, thestrongest strawberry plant in
(04:11):
the world.
I'll keep you updated on how itgoes.
Curt Rom (04:13):
Yeah, plants are amazingly resilient.
You know, talk about plants weprobably ought to get into
today's content.
You know I go to the farmer'smarket in my family orchard.
I used to farmer's market and acouple of weeks ago, starting
in about the second week ofSeptember, it's a big time at
our farmer's market because wehave a farmer that sells pawpaws
(04:36):
and it's kind of exciting, youknow, and so it's going to be
fun today to talk about pawpaws.
Samson Humphrey (04:45):
Fantastic Curt.
Let's give the episode a listen.
Good morning, Dr Pomper.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Kirk Pomper (05:04):
I'm happy to be here.
Samson Humphrey (05:06):
Could you please take a second to
introduce yourself?
What is it that you do?
Kirk Pomper (05:11):
So I'm Kirk Pomper.
I'm a professor of horticulturehere at Kentucky State
University, and so I'mconducting research and
extension work, mainly in Pawpaw, and I'm also teaching plant
science and horticulturalclasses.
Curt Rom (05:28):
Hello, dr Pomper.
It's good to see you again.
Another pomological colleagueand friend, yep, good to see you
.
So you know, we've known eachother a long, long time and in
my mind I kind of think of youas the pawpaw scientist.
You know you're the pawpaw guy,but you know for our listeners,
(05:49):
you know, although I grew up inthe South and we live in the
South, we know about pawpaws.
But let's start with somebasics.
Kirk Pomper (06:02):
What is a pawpaw?
Sure, so a pawpaw, it's anative tree fruit.
It's actually the largestnative tree fruit in North
America and kind of looks like agreen potato and when you cut
into it when it's ripe, it hassomewhere between an orange and
a yellow flesh, has a verystrong tropical-like aroma and
(06:24):
flavor and that's due to itsbeing in the same family,
actually, as Soursop andCherimoya.
It's in the Ananasia family.
So it's unique in that it's theonly temperate member that at
least grows all the way up intoKentucky and further north of
that family.
So people have probably walkedby it or driven by it if they've
(06:48):
come to this part of thecountry and they don't even
realize it, but it's out there.
Curt Rom (06:53):
You know, I see it when I go hiking in the Ozarks.
I often see it.
It's a native plant here.
But what's its natural rangebiologically?
Where does it exist and wherehas it evolved?
Kirk Pomper (07:06):
So the native range for pawpaw right now it's
basically as far west as kind ofeastern Texas, eastern Nebraska
, eastern Iowa and as far northas southern Ontario actually,
and I guess as far south asright along Florida, louisiana,
(07:26):
toward the coast where there'sstill some chilling, and so it
covers quite a large range ofeastern United States.
And you know, I guess throughthe last ice age it probably
pushed down into the moresouthern states and then as the
ice receded it kind of came backup and repopulated and it may
(07:48):
be there are some other Asiminaspecies that grow in southern
Georgia and Florida.
Asimina parviflora is one ofthose.
So it may have intergraced alittle bit with some of those
other ones, but it is truly theonly member of that family that
has large fruit and flavorfulfruit.
Samson Humphrey (08:10):
You described how it has these large fruits.
How large are these fruitsexactly and what do they taste
like?
Kirk Pomper (08:17):
Sure, we're usually seeing a fruit that's maybe
about 100 grams or so At leastthat's what we're hoping for I
mean on a tree and in a cluster.
So they'll flower in April herein Kentucky and the same tree
will flower over maybe severalweeks, and so then you're going
to get clusters that ripen in,say, late August and through
(08:40):
September, even early October,depending on the variety or
where it was originally from,and you'll have a range of fruit
sizes, but on average we'relooking for something that's
over 120 grams.
We find a lot of those superiorvarieties being 250, 300 gram
average.
And so it's, you know,definitely has a lot of
(09:01):
different kind of flavors, justlike an apple.
There's many pawpaw varietiesout there that have different
flavor profiles and some arebetter than others.
If you ever see a pawpaw in thewild, if you see a very long
pawpaw, a long, narrow pawpaw,that probably isn't very good.
That probably means it's mostlyseed right and not much pulp.
(09:21):
But if it's kind of egg-shapedand very round, that usually
means there's a higherpulp-to-seed ratio, and that's
what we're looking for in ourvarieties.
We're looking for maybe 5% or6% seed by weight.
Samson Humphrey (09:36):
I've also heard that bruised pawpaws are
something I should look for.
What does it look like when oneof these pawpaws is good to eat
, aside from being egg-shaped?
Kirk Pomper (09:47):
Sure, yeah, basically, when they start to
ripen they're softening, andthat's the real key.
Then you'll start having thisaroma of kind of tropical-like
aroma.
Now they will bruise prettyeasily.
So it's best if you can go upand actually pick them, just
about like a ripe peach right.
You'll reach up and it'll justkind of easily pull off the tree
(10:09):
, and that's probably the besttime.
If they're on the ground, ifthey start just like a pop, like
a banana, they will start toover ripen and they'll get kind
of brown.
And when they bruise they'llalso get this kind of brown and
you'll start gettingcaramelization flavors.
But then if they're bruised,it'll especially create some off
(10:29):
flavors.
Now there's a real range offlavors out in the wild.
You'll find turpentine flavorseven in the wild, and that's the
genetics of papa.
And so then when thatover-ripens, that can even be
worse than turpentine.
Then when that over ripens,that can even be worse than
turpentine.
So anyways, yeah, it's best toactually harvest off the tree
and kind of ripen them up.
(10:50):
That's the best thing thatyou'd want to look for.
Curt Rom (10:59):
So you were mentioning its native range and it's been
here for quite a time.
I'd like to ask a little bitabout the pattern of consumption
and development of this.
I assume that this fruit was a,since it is a fruit that's
native here and you said it'sour largest fruiting plant, was
this a food source forindigenous peoples here and for
early settlers during thewestward expansion, as they're
(11:21):
moving across the Appalachiansand over here into the central
part of the United States?
Was it a pioneer fruit and hasit kind of been more
domesticated now?
Kirk Pomper (11:32):
So if you can kind of give us a little bit of its
consumption history, Sure,there's several articles out
there and basically what isthought is that Native Americans
especially were probablyharvesting and bringing the
fruit further north as the iceage started to recede and it was
(11:52):
a favorite food of NativeAmericans in the area.
So they were definitely eatingpawpaw and using the bark of the
tree for different things.
And there was actually anoriginal paper 1905, by Little,
who talked about the greatpotential of the pawpaw.
And in about 1917, there wasactually a contest by the
(12:18):
American Genetics Association totry and find the best pawpaw,
and so they put out a requestfor folks to send fruit.
And people did send fruit andthere was, you know, there were
some winners and actually inthat paper it was quoted with
intelligent breeding, you know,pawpaw would become a really
large commercial fruit in theUnited States, but it just
(12:38):
didn't happen, and that's mainlybecause of that perishability
factor.
They're only really able tokind of maintain a good eating
quality for about a week unlessthey're refrigerated, and so
there wasn't a lot ofrefrigeration.
Back then Blueberry was a nativefruit that was also catching on
but didn't requirerefrigeration, so that kind of
(13:01):
came on as the native fruit thatfolks were wanting to grow.
But so that's.
You know.
Pawpaw has a history.
Through the years now it's hada lot of folks just kind of
producing the fruit Enthusiastsin the Northern Nut Grower
Association and NAFEX and someother organizations that kind of
(13:22):
kept alive NAFEX and some otherorganizations that kind of kept
alive.
And then around the 1980ssomeone named Neil Peterson
became very interested inbreeding pawpaw and some really
good varieties came out of that.
And then of course at K-State anumber of folks have been here,
but I've been here since 1998,and we've been breeding pawpaws
now too and had some goodreleases.
Curt Rom (13:42):
So it then has been domesticated and there is
cultivation now, and can youkind of tell us where it is
being cultivated, Sure?
Kirk Pomper (13:51):
Sure, yeah, and in fact we have a little better
idea now what's really going on,because there's enough people
actually growing pawpaw now.
That was included in the last2022 ag census and that was the
first time it was included 100farmers in many states.
(14:12):
There's just under 100 farmersin Kentucky commercially growing
pawpaw.
Ohio is probably the largest.
They have 165 growers.
North Carolina, indiana,tennessee, west Virginia there's
kind of a whole stretch offolks growing pawpaws in those
areas, and probably the largestcommercial use right now for
(14:36):
pawpaw, besides farmer's marketsand gourmet markets and organic
groceries, is the fermentationindustry.
A lot of people are makingpawpaw wine, pawpaw beer.
Of course, here in Kentuckywe're the home of bourbon and so
there are folks also distillingand making pawpaw brandy and
you can buy that at severaldifferent distilleries, so
(14:57):
that's probably the largestcommercial market right now for
pawpaw.
Curt Rom (15:00):
Oh, thanks, that's pretty interesting.
I enjoyed hearing that.
Samson Humphrey (15:05):
That's fascinating too.
If I were to find a pawpaw farmand visit and walk onto that
farm, what would I see around me?
Kirk Pomper (15:15):
Sure You'd see something.
Visit and walk onto that farm.
What would I see around me?
Sure You'd see something, youknow?
If so, there's basically twopop-up production methods kind
of going on right now.
And one is the classichorticultural orchard system.
Right, and we've worked on thatquite a bit, and there are
folks out there basically wedon't.
We don't have rootstocks, sothese are more kind of
(15:37):
traditionally spaced trees,maybe 8 to 10 feet apart, in
alleyways maybe 15 to 20 feetacross, and so you'll see maybe
just lines of trees beingplanted right now.
And then there are some who aretrying to grow it in patches in
native settings, and so there'sfolks who found really good
(15:59):
patches with pretty goodgenetics and so they're removing
the overhanging trees becauseit is a native understory tree,
even though it can survivereally well out in full sun
after it's about a year old, andso those folks are trying to
coax along those fruit toproduce and going out.
Samson Humphrey (16:23):
And you see a lot of that kind of wild
production in Ohio as a majorarea.
Wow, so you mentioned a yearold just now.
I assume it takes a lot longerfor them to grow big enough to
produce fruit.
How long does it take, and isanything done to shorten the
production cycle?
Kirk Pomper (16:36):
We've definitely been interested in trying to
find a way to kind of bring onthe fruit production faster.
And so right now mainly we havegrafted trees on rootstock.
So that's just seedlingrootstock and the grafted trees
will actually produce flowersand fruit.
Maybe at three years You'll seeflowers even maybe at two years
(16:57):
, because that's a mature bud,so it's grown out and so it's
going to flower and fruit faster.
And really when they get toabout 10 feet they're going to
hold the most fruit, or 10, 15feet tall.
And then we've got seedlingtrees.
A lot of people are trying togrow seedling trees.
Of course you don't know whatthe, just as I say, just like
(17:17):
your kids or other things, youknow they're never this, they're
not quite duplicates, and so inthe horticulture world we've
got a lot of diversity in theseeds.
So folks are planting seedlings, but they don't always get the
best quality.
You know that tree has to gothrough a period of juvenility
before it'll flower, so that canbe maybe even six, seven years
(17:39):
before you'll get your firstfruit.
Curt Rom (17:42):
What's the form of grafting that's typically used
on pawpaws?
Kirk Pomper (17:46):
We spend quite a bit of time on that.
Really, the best methods areeither chip budding or whip and
tongue.
Whip and tongue is mostly usedacross the nursery industry
right now, along with chipbudding or whip and tongue.
Whip and tongue is mostly usedacross the nursery industry
right now, along with chipbudding.
The only thing that doesn'treally work well with pawpaw is
inverted T budding.
That failed, actually, butother than that, most other
(18:10):
forms of crafting or buddingwork very well with pawpaw, and
there's been a lot of work donewith propagation, a lot of
interest in propagation, becausethe trees are very highly
sought after and so nurseriesare selling out of trees very
quickly.
Grafted trees usually sell fromanywhere from about $25 to $100
(18:30):
, depending on the variety each,and so they're very sought
after right now.
So folks are really interestedin trying to graft their own
trees if possible.
Curt Rom (18:40):
Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it was my
kind of understandingbiologically that pawpaw almost
has kind of a dimorphic lifecycle, that in the juvenile
stage it's a shade-loving plantand then when it passes
juvenility, enters its maturitystage, it is a full sun plant.
(19:02):
Is that correct?
And if that's true, do we skipthat shade-requiring stage by
grafting mature material?
Kirk Pomper (19:14):
So it really only comes down to when the seedlings
first germinate, until theyreach about a foot and a half,
about 18 inches.
That's when they really requireshade, or they can be in a
greenhouse.
They're more sensitive to UVlight at that time and so after
they get to that size, even ifthey're established in the field
, even if they're established inthe field, you will be able to
(19:35):
graft and not have to shade.
Now, that said, they willbenefit from tree tubes or tree
shelters at the first year, andour experience has also been
that if you have maybe some windprotection, if you've got maybe
(19:57):
trees nearby or a windbreak,that also benefits the
establishment of the trees.
At K-State we have nowindbreaks.
It's a strong wind.
As I say, it's like we'reselecting for the fittest at
this point.
Curt Rom (20:05):
Survival of the fittest in the research field?
Pretty much, yes, well, but youdo, by grafting or budding that
mature material, you doincrease the precocity of it
compared to a seedling.
Kirk Pomper (20:18):
Yeah, very much so.
Yeah, After you know I've got alittle over-release.
That's a variety of pop at homeand you know it's only about
three and a half feet tall andit has flower buds all over it.
So yeah, it doesn't.
It's really about just atwo-year, one-year delay, and
they already put out flower buds.
You don't necessarily want themto set that fruit then, you
(20:39):
want them to keep building thearchitecture of the tree, but
you will have fruit maybe withinthree to four years with a
grafted tree where it's six toseven, with the seedling.
Curt Rom (20:49):
Okay, so, following my interest in the biology of it,
tell me about the pollinationrequirements for this.
Does it requirecross-pollination, is it
self-fertile, and what is thepollinator that's needed for
pawpaw Sure?
Kirk Pomper (21:06):
That's a good question.
Actually I've had severalgraduate students in the last
few years trying to look at someof those questions.
Trying to look at some of thosequestions and right now, I
guess, going to theself-fertility or whether they
are self-compatible first.
So I did have a student whomade a number of crosses and
then we grew out the seedlings,we did DNA fingerprinting to
(21:29):
really kind of understandwhether some of those fruit and
with the seeds inside wereactually the result of some
selfing or crossing.
And we do find maybe 5%, 10% ofthe fruit on the tree was the
result of a self and then therest are crosses.
And so I think, even though wetend to say pawpaw is
(21:50):
self-incompatible, and there maybe some trees that very much
are, you know, and somevarieties, but I'd say they're
of self-unfruitful they justdon't set as many fruit, nearly
as many fruit, if they aren'tcross-pollinating.
So that said, pollen transferwith pollinators, you know they.
I've worked with papayas, I saidalmost like 27, 28 years.
(22:11):
I've seen bees in the orchardseveral times.
I think they were lost tryingto get back to their hives.
But honeybees do not pollinatepawpaws, it really comes down to
flies and beetles.
And I actually had a studentover the last two years putting
out cages with tanglefoot aroundthe flowers and then around
(22:33):
just branches trying to see whatinsects we gather that are
coming and visiting.
And you know, basically we'reseeing a lot of flies but we're
also seeing lady beetles andwe're seeing a number of other
insects.
We do see ants too, so allthese could be carrying pollen.
You know, probably the flies andthe lady beetles are the most
(22:54):
active of the pollinatorsprobably, and so we think at
this point we've got pretty gooddata that those are the most
prevalent pollinators.
So there are some other insectstoo.
He has a whole range of insectsthat he's been studiously
taking out of Tanglefoot, offthese traps and trying to ID,
and so he will have ananesthesis done pretty soon.
(23:16):
But basically, you know, we'retrying to attract non-bee
pollinators, we're attractingflies, and so they do have kind
of a meaty, kind of maroonflower kind of reminds you of
something that would attractflies and kind of a fetid odor.
So you can kind of see wheremaybe flies would be attracted.
(23:37):
And so we always kind of kidabout if you don't have a lot of
pawpaws, you might want to putout something to attract them
and people will honestly putroadkill out in the patches or
chicken parts or other things toattract the flies.
Curt Rom (23:56):
So that's an interesting intercropping system
, yes, but the bottom line isreally a commercial pawpaw
grower would benefit from amulti-cultivar block, not only
to spread production risk, butalso to enhance pollination and
cropping.
Kirk Pomper (24:13):
Absolutely.
We recommend at least threevarieties and unfortunately I
can't really tell you whichthree are the best to cross
right now.
I've worked with hazelnutself-incompatibility for a while
and that's really welldocumented.
But we've been struggling along, trying to really figure that
out in pawpaw yet.
Samson Humphrey (24:32):
That's fascinating.
What are some of the challenges?
You see pawpaw yet.
That's fascinating.
What are the?
What are some of the challengesyou see pawpaw growers facing?
Kirk Pomper (24:38):
Well, I think I think, like any new crop,
especially a perennial crop, youknow, people need to be willing
to wait to get that first fruitand so, especially with our
small, we have a lot of smallfarmers in Kentucky, about
65,000 farms and about 80% ofthem are, you know, under 200
acres.
Many, many folks we work withare making, you know, 25,000 a
(25:04):
year and they just have 10 acresand some of them are really
dependent upon that income froma small crop and so come from a
small crop and so you know a lotof interest in pawpaw in that
way.
So yeah, I think that's, youknow, the major thrust right now
is kind of our small growersbut they're not only growing
(25:25):
pawpaw, you know, and that's theother thing is try a few trees,
understand it, realize it willtake maybe five years to really
come into production and then onto the in those markets as you
build up your understanding ofthe trees, and that's what we
recommend to growers how manycultivars, how many varieties
(25:45):
exist of pawpaw?
Samson Humphrey (25:46):
you've mentioned some already, but how
many are there?
Kirk Pomper (25:50):
well, there's, there's many, many and you, and
there's probably over 50 rightnow commercially available, and
some of them, as I said, there'sseveral major kind of groups of
pawpaws that are out there.
Carwin Davis was breedingpawpaw in Michigan a while back,
(26:11):
and so there's quite a fewreleases like Tattoo and Taylor
from his program.
And then Neil Peterson has somereally good varieties that are
exceptional, like Shenandoah,susquehanna.
His naming system is namingafter Native American rivers,
and so Tallahatchie, wabash,shenandoah, and then K-State's
(26:34):
released three.
Now we have KSU Atwood, ksuBenson and then KSU Chappelle,
and they're really goodvarieties.
They ripen at slightlydifferent times KSU Benson
earlier, ksu Atwood later, ksuChappelle, kind of in the middle
, and so we're going to have twomore released next year, and
then we are breeding.
Right now we have lots ofseedlings out there from the
(26:57):
result of crosses that we'relooking at.
Samson Humphrey (27:00):
That's so cool.
Is there any differentiationbetween pawpaws that are meant
for eating and pawpaws that aremeant for making alcohol, like
you mentioned earlier?
Kirk Pomper (27:09):
That's a good question, you know.
I do think unfortunately poorerquality or poor tasting pawpaws
actually that bad flavor comesthrough sometimes in the wine.
You know I had some pawpaw winethat someone had made and I
could definitely taste thebitterness right that you
sometimes get with wild pawpawsand it came through in the wine.
(27:32):
So I think we're going to haveto be careful, as we, you know,
develop as an industry, torealize that you know, some of
the wild selections or wildtrees are producing some fruit
that really shouldn't probablybe used even in processing
(27:59):
breeding program.
Curt Rom (28:00):
What's your strategy on that?
Is it kind of a typicalrecurrent mass selection, where
you're identifying parents withunique characteristics and
trying to create offspring thatwould be selected for those
traits that you're interested in?
What's your strategy and how doyou do your breeding?
Kirk Pomper (28:14):
Yeah, that's a good question, and you know we've
got several parents that wereally are using heavily, and
one of them is sunflower and itoriginally was selected in
Kansas.
It's a very productive tree.
You know very kind of, I wouldsay, mid-sized fruit of a good
(28:35):
quality but not the best flavor,but it's very productive.
And then another one that welike using is Susco Hannah,
which is from Neil Peterson'sprogram, probably the most liked
pawpaw in taste tests that wedo, just that.
It has such a good flavor andunfortunately it's one of the
lightest producing varietiesthat's out there, and so we are
(28:57):
using those two in quite a fewof our crosses.
But there's some others tooChappelle and Atwood we've used
and some others.
There's some other material toothat we are looking at that has
less problems with disease.
Now we really only have onedisease that really is a problem
(29:18):
with pom-pom and that's a blackspot and it's a phyllosticta
organism, and sometimes there'stwo other fungal organisms that
will be together with that, butthey have black spots and are
chronic spots then on the leavesand they will get black spots
on the fruit and then when youhave a rainstorm right, the
(29:40):
fruit expands, cracks and ruinsthe fruit.
So there are some varietiesthat are definitely more
susceptible to the black spotand then some that are a little
more tolerant.
I had one I really thought wasresistant, but over time it
started, its resistance brokedown.
But so that's one thing we'rereally interested in, also the
(30:01):
yield.
So that's the main reasons whywe're looking at some of those
parents.
So right now we're just doingdirect crosses, we're not doing
any kind of back crossing.
At this point we're not quitethat far along.
So we're just looking atprogeny and right now some of
the best crosses are about yearfive, and so we're starting to
(30:23):
see already some precocitydifferences.
I'm seeing fruit on some ofthose trees this year.
Next year should be a reallygood year for us to look at some
of that material and hopefullyit won't be a drought year.
I hope it'll be a good, nicerainy year Not too rainy, but
that we'll be able to look foryield fruit quality.
Curt Rom (30:43):
If I will stick to incidents, so I understand you
know yield and quality of coursestick to incidence.
So, yeah, I understand.
Yeah, yield and quality, ofcourse, are always primary
characteristics.
Are there other characteristicsthat you would also hope?
I mean, it's such a fragilefruit.
I would assume that you'reprobably also evaluating for
things that are a little lessfragile and from a commercial
(31:03):
standpoint, is it good to havethe fruit all ripen at once?
You know, as a former applebreeder, you know we wanted one
harvest apples, right, but inpeaches it was a little bit the
opposite.
You know, for commercial freshmarket peaches, you know you
wanted to spread that harvestwindow over seven to 15 days and
(31:27):
have multiple pigs.
Yeah, what's the strategy?
That?
The other characteristics thatyou might be looking at.
Kirk Pomper (31:35):
We really haven't seen any concentrated ripening
on any material I've beenlooking at, and so everything is
pretty much you know.
It's flowering over severalweeks and then it's ripening
over several weeks and worsethan that.
You know a cluster right.
They'll often come in clustersthat one cluster will ripen,
fruit will ripen on the samecluster at different times, and
(31:57):
so it's you know.
It's just a real problem.
We've tried doing some things tomaybe concentrate ripening with
ethafon applications.
It didn't work very well, sothat's a problem.
I would love to find a moreconcentrated ripening, but we
haven't seen it.
Other things we're looking atyes, we'd like a firm pawpaw
(32:20):
that would ship better, andsescohand is probably the
firmest pawpaw that we haveright now.
That's also why we're usingthat, but it's still not firm
enough to really not bruise, andwe were talking about bruising
earlier.
You know, if we're trying toship at any distance at all and
it's soft, you're going to getbruising, you're going to get
off flavors, and so we'relooking for a firmer pawpaw.
(32:41):
Another thing would be with acolor break.
I really like to have a colorbreak, and so right now you'll
have pawpaws and some varietiesespecially.
They're green and they're softand they're ready to be picked.
But you're going to, you haveto go feel through the tree to
figure out if they're actuallyripe.
So I would love to have ayellow color break.
(33:03):
There are some varieties thathave a little bit of a yellowing
on the skin but it's not realreliable.
Like Pia, golden is one thatdoes get a little yellow.
But we've also looked and thesoftness correlation with the
color is not real great.
You know, it's there a littlebit but not great.
So I'm always telling people ifyou see a very yellow pawpaw
(33:25):
fruit, let us know, because we'dbe very interested in that
material.
So, those are some other things.
We also don't want it realsweet.
We run around 20 to 25 bricks.
We don't want a 27 or 30-brickpawpaw.
It's so sweet people will notlike it right.
So that's also sometimes kindof a cloying, just too sweet of
(33:49):
fruit and no aftertaste.
Of course that's the otherthing.
We don't maybe a melonaftertaste, which we have in
some, but we don't want a bitteraftertaste in any way.
Curt Rom (34:00):
That makes a lot of sense to me and that would lead
to increased consumer acceptanceetc.
Going back to kind of an earlypart of our conversation, you
were saying now the USDA iskeeping statistics on it, which
means that it's expanding inproduction.
What do you see as theforefront or the next steps for
(34:21):
commercialization and expandingof production systems?
Kirk Pomper (34:25):
Sure.
So you know, I think right now,based on the varieties we have,
we definitely have a nice nichecommercial market for fresh
market pawpaws at farmer'smarkets and local groceries.
If we're going to make thatnext step to ship, we're going
to need different varieties thatare firmer, don't bruise as
(34:45):
easily.
But if we don't have that, thenext step would also be
processing, and so we'veactually spent quite a bit of
time on that.
Right now and this is similarwith cherimoya and some of the
other sour sop that you'll findin the tropics we don't really
have a good method to remove theskin, and so what we'll do is
we're going to end up havingpeople cut the fruit in half, or
(35:10):
they'll just kind of rip thefruit in half and they'll
squeeze out the pulp and theseed.
And then we have a number ofdifferent devices that are
either mechanized or handcranked that you know, basically
like a saucer or a RoboCoop ifyou've ever seen something like
that which will separate thepulp and the seed very
effectively.
And so you know, that's kind ofour stopping area right now.
(35:34):
We can't get the skin off.
If I could find a really greatfood I guess technology person
and also find the right variety.
If I had a little tougher skin,I think that would actually
help me with trying to get thatskin off right too.
Right now the skin is not realthick, it kind of doesn't come
(35:57):
off, and if you leave any skinin it will kind of get bitter
and it's really not a.
It will ruin the pulp, sothat's, but that's where we're
at right now.
I know a lot of'll ruin thepulp, so that's, but that's
where we're at right now.
I know a lot of people like thepulp and so there's definitely
a market out there for processedpulp.
And the question is how muchfaster can we make that right
now?
Because we do have a lot ofpeople processing pulp right now
(36:19):
in smaller quantities or 5,000pounds, I've heard, and things
like that.
But if we want to get beyondthat, we need to have a little
more mechanization.
Curt Rom (36:31):
You mentioned you need some technological advances.
So along kind of that line, Imean we're both pomologists,
we're fruit scientists.
What are the really bigquestions you see out there?
Horticultural, the horticultureresearch questions, scientific
questions.
That's kind of one part of thisquestion I'm asking you.
The other part is is what's thescience and the research
(36:55):
questions that really have youexcited as a scientist?
Kirk Pomper (37:00):
Well, you know, I think the major problem that we
have across horticulture andmaybe all areas of ag right now
is labor and aging farmers andgrowers Right, and so we do need
ways to mechanize or or reducelabor in terms of the production
(37:20):
or or any step right now, andso I think that's that's
something we need to be aware ofand thinking about.
And so for me, with pawpaw,that's kind of going into trying
to maybe do high densitysystems and trying to trellis
more and make the labor probablyis highest for harvest in
(37:44):
pawpaw right now.
So if I can reduce the labor onharvesting, that's going to be
a significant step.
So I forgot what the secondpart of your question was.
What's?
Curt Rom (37:53):
got you excited.
I mean, are there physiologicalquestions?
You know we're facingincredibly variable weather.
What's the response toenvironment, you know?
Are there questions about theprimary transport, carbohydrates
light response, temperatureresponse, chill.
You know what are the questionsthat just have you like man,
(38:17):
I'm ready to go to work tomorrow.
Kirk Pomper (38:19):
Well, I think the biggest things are actually
trying to understand thepollination mechanisms and then
doing some more breeding.
I really would like to be ableto figure out what, what
varieties should be planted withwhich varieties to be able to
optimize pollination.
So that's.
We're going to keep working onthat.
I'm also looking at at acontrolled atmosphere, storage
(38:41):
of pawpaw.
That's something that a studentworking on right now, trying to
keep the fruit longer so it canbe sold longer.
So that's another area ofinterest.
You know, I do think you know,I know that I guess I will say
breeders always have all the fun, right?
Curt Rom (38:58):
But you're creating new things.
I mean, it's veryentrepreneurial.
Kirk Pomper (39:01):
Right.
So that's where a lot of myinterest is, too, on what we
have out there, what we're goingto be seeing in those
selections that we've made, andthen trying to go through and
see if we see some with some ofthese better characteristics
that we think of.
So that I really do like a lot.
(39:25):
But there's many things aboutpop-up that I find interesting,
and I do think that it's a cropthat will continue to grow in
this space right now as peoplecare about local foods and want
to try new things, because whowould have thought people would
like kiwis and mangoes as muchas they do now?
Right, it shows that folks aremore accepting of things that
(39:45):
they haven't been eating.
They're willing to trydifferent things.
Curt Rom (39:48):
Well, you know that makes sense.
That always makes me rememberan oft-quoted quote from Thomas
Jefferson that the greatestservice which can be rendered to
a country is to add a usefulplant or crop to its culture,
crop to its culture.
So, maya can see how that wouldget you excited to know.
I mean, you're really kind oflike living the dream of adding
(40:10):
a new fruit, a new crop, both tothe farm enterprise but also to
our plates.
It sounds very exciting.
Samson Humphrey (40:24):
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.
It sounds like you're doing alot of really exciting work and
that you've been studying thisfruit for a couple decades now.
You've had a really rich pawpawcareer, and so I'm curious.
Maybe I'm making a hastyassumption here, but I assume
that when you were a littleplant science student figuring
out what you wanted to dosomeday, I'm assuming that you
(40:46):
didn't see pawpaws in yourfuture.
I'm curious as someone who'shad such a rich and exciting
career.
What would you recommendstudents keep in mind as they
emerge?
Kirk Pomper (40:59):
Sure.
Well, you know I look at mypath to where I am and you know
I've worked on a lot ofdifferent crops.
I've worked on everything fromorchids to beans, to
strawberries, to hazelnuts andpawpaw, and I've been around a
lot of other students who areworking with a lot of different
things.
And that's what I always tellmy students Make sure you know
(41:22):
what you're going to, know yourproject, but also make sure you
know what other students aredoing too.
You cannot accumulate enoughknowledge.
The more breadth of knowledgeyou have of all horticulture,
that's going to serve you reallywell down the line, because you
never know what path you mighttake.
You may end up all of a suddenwith an opportunity to go and
work in a totally different crop, and yet you know something
(41:43):
about it, or at least you canreason out and do the critical
thinking that you need to do,because you have talked to
somebody already.
So that's why I do tell peopleto be the sponge.
Try to learn as much as you canabout the other folks around
you, because I was lucky enoughto be around a number of
different crops and projects toofolks growing grapes and
(42:04):
hazelnuts when I was a PhDstudent, and that really helped.
Curt Rom (42:08):
Well, and here you are .
You are the guy that picked uppawpaws and put them in your
basket and have made a careerout of that.
Well, Dr Pomper, I want tothank you.
This was a really enjoyableconversation.
I know I learned a lot.
I'm sure our listeners learneda lot.
Also, thank you for working onpawpaw.
You know it's a lot of us workon other crops that are real
(42:31):
popular, but if we don't havescientists that are working on
these new crops, yeah, we don'tlive to the challenge that
Thomas Jefferson gave us.
So thank you for doing thatwork, Really appreciate it.
It was a great conversation.
I enjoyed it.
What did you think, Samson?
Samson Humphrey (42:51):
I love it.
I knew nothing, next to nothing, about pawpaw before this
conversation and I'm about to goout and find one and maybe
multiple.
I'll have to try multiple ofthem and eat them this weekend
and let you know what I think,kurt.
Kirk Pomper (43:05):
Absolutely.
Curt Rom (43:06):
Yeah, we have a pawpaw farmer locally sells at our
farmer's market, and actuallyone of my horticulture
classmates.
So it's always kind of fun andto me it's one of those crops
that it's only at the farmer'smarket for about three weeks and
so people kind of wait for itand, talking to the one or two
(43:28):
farmers that sell it, they don'tkeep them very long because
people know it's here today andgone tomorrow.
Well, this was lots of fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Dr Popper, thanks for joiningus today.
Thank you I really enjoyed it.
Samson Humphrey (43:48):
Hey, Kurt, that was a fantastic episode, don't
you think?
Curt Rom (44:05):
Yeah, I really enjoyed that.
You know, I've known Dr Pomperfor 30 years or something and
I've heard him we were friendsthrough the ASHS and I've heard
him speak on elements of hisresearch, but it was fascinating
to me to hear about croppingand production.
Samson Humphrey (44:18):
Yeah, I had only ever heard of this plant as
like just a wild.
You know, I took my littlebotany course the first year of
college and I could recognizethe plant, like in a forest, but
it was always in Florida.
It was always very small andwasn't the big crop that it
(44:39):
seems to be up a little bitfarther north.
I was really fascinated to hearhow many growers there are for
this plant.
He was giving numbers like inthe hundreds of growers
throughout several statesgrowing pawpaw and selling
pawpaw.
I was really surprised by that.
Curt Rom (44:57):
Yeah, and then the fact that it's now a USDA census
crop I mean, it's a recognized,legitimate horticultural crop.
It's something to pay attentionto.
And you know, I was alsointerested in his talking about
the work that he does and I wasfascinated by the breeding work
(45:18):
and the research that supportshis breeding work related to
pollination, propagation, earlycultivation.
Samson Humphrey (45:26):
Yeah, so many reasons to be excited and so
many avenues for collaboration.
He was talking aboutcollaborating with people in
different fields.
Yeah it seems like a reallyexciting place to be.
To learn more about this topic,visit the Facebook page KSU
Pawpaw.
(45:46):
That's KSU as in.
Kentucky State University.
Additionally, there will be aPawpaw conference next September
, hosted by Kentucky StateUniversity and other science
organizations, so keep an eye onthe Facebook page for more news
.
You should also check out DrPomper's lecture on YouTube
titled All About Pawpaw Growing,harvesting and Eating America's
(46:06):
Forgotten Superfruit.
He also has recently publisheda paper titled Comparison of
Grafting and Budding PropagationTechniques for Cultivars of the
North American Pawpaw.
He published this in thejournal Hort Technology, which
is one of the open sourcepeer-reviewed journals published
by the American Society forHorticultural Science.
You can reach out to him atkirkpomper at kysuedu and you
(46:30):
can follow him on LinkedIn formore information.
Curt Rom (46:34):
If this podcast and interview resonates with you, I
strongly recommend you renewingyour membership or joining the
American Society forHorticultural Science.
If you'd like more informationabout the American Society for
Horticultural Science in general, you can go to the website
ashsorg.
Samson Humphrey (46:56):
Thank you, kurt , this has been fantastic.
Curt Rom (46:59):
Thank you, samson, I enjoyed it a lot.
The ASHS podcast Plants, peopleand Science is made possible by
member dues and volunteerism.
Please go to ashsorg to learnmore.
If you're not already a memberof the ASHS, we invite you to
(47:27):
join.
Ashs is a not-for-profit andyour donations are
tax-deductible.
Samson Humphrey (47:31):
This episode was hosted by Samson Humphrey
and Kurt Rome.
Special thanks to our audioengineer, andrew Sheldorf, our
research specialists Lena Wilsonand Andrew Sheldorf, our ASHS
support team, sarah Powell andSally Murphy, and our musician
John Clark.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to Plants People Science, a podcast
by the American Society forHorticultural Science where we
talk about all thingshorticulture.
I'm your co-host, SamsonHumphrey, a PhD student
researcher at the University ofTennessee, Knoxville, along with
my co-host, Curt Rom.
Curt, how are you doing?
Curt Rom (00:29):
Hi, Sam, I'm doing real well.
Yeah, I'm a universityprofessor of horticulture,
really emphasizing pomology,fruit crops, but kind of a
generalist here at theUniversity of Arkansas.
But I'm doing well.
You know, it's the last threeweeks of the semester and
there's always a lot ofexcitement with the first three
(00:49):
weeks of the semester, and thenthere's a new level of
excitement, bordering on anxiety, with the last three weeks of
the semester.
But I promise you, professorslook forward to the end of the
semester every bit as much asthe students do.
And of course we're in theholiday season just upon us.
Samson Humphrey (01:08):
I'm surprised to hear that you're excited for
it.
Curt Gardener, Curt Rom.
Curt Rom (01:14):
Oh well, you know, I should tell you that, since I
was talking about my gardens, wehaven't had a frost yet.
So in my garden, my hostas arestill growing, I still have
pansies, I have impatiens, Ihave lantana, and I'm
maintaining them, I'm stillcultivating them.
I have marigolds still growing,I have coreopsis still growing.
(01:40):
What's even more exciting, everyholiday season I buy
poinsettias, then at the end ofthe holiday season, I kind of
prune them back and I kind ofspoil them a little bit.
I take them, put them in mygreenhouse and then, as soon as
we get past the first frost, Iplant them in my garden.
(02:00):
I plant them in what I calloutside of the fence garden,
which I don't give as much careto, and there's deer pressure.
Well, poinsettias are a deerresistant plant and for the
first time ever since we've nothit frost, we're at about 230
days, 240 days.
(02:21):
My poinsettias in my garden arestarting to turn color because
of the day length.
I've never, ever had that theyalways have gotten.
Usually our first frost isOctober 10th, so we're a full
month late on our frost.
Samson Humphrey (02:37):
We're going to have to get a picture of you in
front of those plants, like asthe as the picture for this for
today's episode.
That's hilarious.
Curt Rom (02:44):
Well, it's fun.
Actually, part of the reason Igrow them is because they're a
fun plant to propagate in myclasses, and so I always take
cuttings and then we'llpropagate them and we'll try a
couple different methods ofpropagation.
But they do root pretty easily,especially in various forms of
(03:04):
synthetic substrates and media.
So it's fun.
I have a dozen little six inchpoinsettias.
Since I don't do that tillSeptember, they're only going to
be six or eight inches tall andspread.
So I have potted poinsettiasI'll bring into my office.
They're also starting to turncolor because of daylight
(03:25):
poinsettias I'll bring into myoffice.
Samson Humphrey (03:26):
They're also starting to turn color because
of daylight.
Oh, that's exciting.
I have an exciting gardeningnews flash for you too, kurt.
As you know, I am not agardener in my personal life,
but during my master's I didstrawberry research and I had
this extra research plant that Itotally abused.
I didn't water it for two weeks.
I like increased thetemperature to like 30 degrees
(03:48):
and then I decreased thetemperature for like two weeks
to 18 degrees.
I think it was very.
It was a cold temperature forthis plant that wasn't getting
water and should have died.
It's it's peers.
The other plants did die, butthis plant survived all ons and
it now has its first flower.
So I have, I think, thestrongest strawberry plant in
(04:11):
the world.
I'll keep you updated on how itgoes.
Curt Rom (04:13):
Yeah, plants are amazingly resilient.
You know, talk about plants weprobably ought to get into
today's content.
You know I go to the farmer'smarket in my family orchard.
I used to farmer's market and acouple of weeks ago, starting
in about the second week ofSeptember, it's a big time at
our farmer's market because wehave a farmer that sells pawpaws
(04:36):
and it's kind of exciting, youknow, and so it's going to be
fun today to talk about pawpaws.
Samson Humphrey (04:45):
Fantastic Curt.
Let's give the episode a listen.
Good morning, Dr Pomper.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Kirk Pomper (05:04):
I'm happy to be here.
Samson Humphrey (05:06):
Could you please take a second to
introduce yourself?
What is it that you do?
Kirk Pomper (05:11):
So I'm Kirk Pomper.
I'm a professor of horticulturehere at Kentucky State
University, and so I'mconducting research and
extension work, mainly in Pawpaw, and I'm also teaching plant
science and horticulturalclasses.
Curt Rom (05:28):
Hello, dr Pomper.
It's good to see you again.
Another pomological colleagueand friend, yep, good to see you
.
So you know, we've known eachother a long, long time and in
my mind I kind of think of youas the pawpaw scientist.
You know you're the pawpaw guy,but you know for our listeners,
(05:49):
you know, although I grew up inthe South and we live in the
South, we know about pawpaws.
But let's start with somebasics.
Kirk Pomper (06:02):
What is a pawpaw?
Sure, so a pawpaw, it's anative tree fruit.
It's actually the largestnative tree fruit in North
America and kind of looks like agreen potato and when you cut
into it when it's ripe, it hassomewhere between an orange and
a yellow flesh, has a verystrong tropical-like aroma and
(06:24):
flavor and that's due to itsbeing in the same family,
actually, as Soursop andCherimoya.
It's in the Ananasia family.
So it's unique in that it's theonly temperate member that at
least grows all the way up intoKentucky and further north of
that family.
So people have probably walkedby it or driven by it if they've
(06:48):
come to this part of thecountry and they don't even
realize it, but it's out there.
Curt Rom (06:53):
You know, I see it when I go hiking in the Ozarks.
I often see it.
It's a native plant here.
But what's its natural rangebiologically?
Where does it exist and wherehas it evolved?
Kirk Pomper (07:06):
So the native range for pawpaw right now it's
basically as far west as kind ofeastern Texas, eastern Nebraska
, eastern Iowa and as far northas southern Ontario actually,
and I guess as far south asright along Florida, louisiana,
(07:26):
toward the coast where there'sstill some chilling, and so it
covers quite a large range ofeastern United States.
And you know, I guess throughthe last ice age it probably
pushed down into the moresouthern states and then as the
ice receded it kind of came backup and repopulated and it may
(07:48):
be there are some other Asiminaspecies that grow in southern
Georgia and Florida.
Asimina parviflora is one ofthose.
So it may have intergraced alittle bit with some of those
other ones, but it is truly theonly member of that family that
has large fruit and flavorfulfruit.
Samson Humphrey (08:10):
You described how it has these large fruits.
How large are these fruitsexactly and what do they taste
like?
Kirk Pomper (08:17):
Sure, we're usually seeing a fruit that's maybe
about 100 grams or so At leastthat's what we're hoping for I
mean on a tree and in a cluster.
So they'll flower in April herein Kentucky and the same tree
will flower over maybe severalweeks, and so then you're going
to get clusters that ripen in,say, late August and through
(08:40):
September, even early October,depending on the variety or
where it was originally from,and you'll have a range of fruit
sizes, but on average we'relooking for something that's
over 120 grams.
We find a lot of those superiorvarieties being 250, 300 gram
average.
And so it's, you know,definitely has a lot of
(09:01):
different kind of flavors, justlike an apple.
There's many pawpaw varietiesout there that have different
flavor profiles and some arebetter than others.
If you ever see a pawpaw in thewild, if you see a very long
pawpaw, a long, narrow pawpaw,that probably isn't very good.
That probably means it's mostlyseed right and not much pulp.
(09:21):
But if it's kind of egg-shapedand very round, that usually
means there's a higherpulp-to-seed ratio, and that's
what we're looking for in ourvarieties.
We're looking for maybe 5% or6% seed by weight.
Samson Humphrey (09:36):
I've also heard that bruised pawpaws are
something I should look for.
What does it look like when oneof these pawpaws is good to eat
, aside from being egg-shaped?
Kirk Pomper (09:47):
Sure, yeah, basically, when they start to
ripen they're softening, andthat's the real key.
Then you'll start having thisaroma of kind of tropical-like
aroma.
Now they will bruise prettyeasily.
So it's best if you can go upand actually pick them, just
about like a ripe peach right.
You'll reach up and it'll justkind of easily pull off the tree
(10:09):
, and that's probably the besttime.
If they're on the ground, ifthey start just like a pop, like
a banana, they will start toover ripen and they'll get kind
of brown.
And when they bruise they'llalso get this kind of brown and
you'll start gettingcaramelization flavors.
But then if they're bruised,it'll especially create some off
(10:29):
flavors.
Now there's a real range offlavors out in the wild.
You'll find turpentine flavorseven in the wild, and that's the
genetics of papa.
And so then when thatover-ripens, that can even be
worse than turpentine.
Then when that over ripens,that can even be worse than
turpentine.
So anyways, yeah, it's best toactually harvest off the tree
and kind of ripen them up.
(10:50):
That's the best thing thatyou'd want to look for.
Curt Rom (10:59):
So you were mentioning its native range and it's been
here for quite a time.
I'd like to ask a little bitabout the pattern of consumption
and development of this.
I assume that this fruit was a,since it is a fruit that's
native here and you said it'sour largest fruiting plant, was
this a food source forindigenous peoples here and for
early settlers during thewestward expansion, as they're
(11:21):
moving across the Appalachiansand over here into the central
part of the United States?
Was it a pioneer fruit and hasit kind of been more
domesticated now?
Kirk Pomper (11:32):
So if you can kind of give us a little bit of its
consumption history, Sure,there's several articles out
there and basically what isthought is that Native Americans
especially were probablyharvesting and bringing the
fruit further north as the iceage started to recede and it was
(11:52):
a favorite food of NativeAmericans in the area.
So they were definitely eatingpawpaw and using the bark of the
tree for different things.
And there was actually anoriginal paper 1905, by Little,
who talked about the greatpotential of the pawpaw.
And in about 1917, there wasactually a contest by the
(12:18):
American Genetics Association totry and find the best pawpaw,
and so they put out a requestfor folks to send fruit.
And people did send fruit andthere was, you know, there were
some winners and actually inthat paper it was quoted with
intelligent breeding, you know,pawpaw would become a really
large commercial fruit in theUnited States, but it just
(12:38):
didn't happen, and that's mainlybecause of that perishability
factor.
They're only really able tokind of maintain a good eating
quality for about a week unlessthey're refrigerated, and so
there wasn't a lot ofrefrigeration.
Back then Blueberry was a nativefruit that was also catching on
but didn't requirerefrigeration, so that kind of
(13:01):
came on as the native fruit thatfolks were wanting to grow.
But so that's.
You know.
Pawpaw has a history.
Through the years now it's hada lot of folks just kind of
producing the fruit Enthusiastsin the Northern Nut Grower
Association and NAFEX and someother organizations that kind of
(13:22):
kept alive NAFEX and some otherorganizations that kind of kept
alive.
And then around the 1980ssomeone named Neil Peterson
became very interested inbreeding pawpaw and some really
good varieties came out of that.
And then of course at K-State anumber of folks have been here,
but I've been here since 1998,and we've been breeding pawpaws
now too and had some goodreleases.
Curt Rom (13:42):
So it then has been domesticated and there is
cultivation now, and can youkind of tell us where it is
being cultivated, Sure?
Kirk Pomper (13:51):
Sure, yeah, and in fact we have a little better
idea now what's really going on,because there's enough people
actually growing pawpaw now.
That was included in the last2022 ag census and that was the
first time it was included 100farmers in many states.
(14:12):
There's just under 100 farmersin Kentucky commercially growing
pawpaw.
Ohio is probably the largest.
They have 165 growers.
North Carolina, indiana,tennessee, west Virginia there's
kind of a whole stretch offolks growing pawpaws in those
areas, and probably the largestcommercial use right now for
(14:36):
pawpaw, besides farmer's marketsand gourmet markets and organic
groceries, is the fermentationindustry.
A lot of people are makingpawpaw wine, pawpaw beer.
Of course, here in Kentuckywe're the home of bourbon and so
there are folks also distillingand making pawpaw brandy and
you can buy that at severaldifferent distilleries, so
(14:57):
that's probably the largestcommercial market right now for
pawpaw.
Curt Rom (15:00):
Oh, thanks, that's pretty interesting.
I enjoyed hearing that.
Samson Humphrey (15:05):
That's fascinating too.
If I were to find a pawpaw farmand visit and walk onto that
farm, what would I see around me?
Kirk Pomper (15:15):
Sure You'd see something.
Visit and walk onto that farm.
What would I see around me?
Sure You'd see something, youknow?
If so, there's basically twopop-up production methods kind
of going on right now.
And one is the classichorticultural orchard system.
Right, and we've worked on thatquite a bit, and there are
folks out there basically wedon't.
We don't have rootstocks, sothese are more kind of
(15:37):
traditionally spaced trees,maybe 8 to 10 feet apart, in
alleyways maybe 15 to 20 feetacross, and so you'll see maybe
just lines of trees beingplanted right now.
And then there are some who aretrying to grow it in patches in
native settings, and so there'sfolks who found really good
(15:59):
patches with pretty goodgenetics and so they're removing
the overhanging trees becauseit is a native understory tree,
even though it can survivereally well out in full sun
after it's about a year old, andso those folks are trying to
coax along those fruit toproduce and going out.
Samson Humphrey (16:23):
And you see a lot of that kind of wild
production in Ohio as a majorarea.
Wow, so you mentioned a yearold just now.
I assume it takes a lot longerfor them to grow big enough to
produce fruit.
How long does it take, and isanything done to shorten the
production cycle?
Kirk Pomper (16:36):
We've definitely been interested in trying to
find a way to kind of bring onthe fruit production faster.
And so right now mainly we havegrafted trees on rootstock.
So that's just seedlingrootstock and the grafted trees
will actually produce flowersand fruit.
Maybe at three years You'll seeflowers even maybe at two years
(16:57):
, because that's a mature bud,so it's grown out and so it's
going to flower and fruit faster.
And really when they get toabout 10 feet they're going to
hold the most fruit, or 10, 15feet tall.
And then we've got seedlingtrees.
A lot of people are trying togrow seedling trees.
Of course you don't know whatthe, just as I say, just like
(17:17):
your kids or other things, youknow they're never this, they're
not quite duplicates, and so inthe horticulture world we've
got a lot of diversity in theseeds.
So folks are planting seedlings, but they don't always get the
best quality.
You know that tree has to gothrough a period of juvenility
before it'll flower, so that canbe maybe even six, seven years
(17:39):
before you'll get your firstfruit.
Curt Rom (17:42):
What's the form of grafting that's typically used
on pawpaws?
Kirk Pomper (17:46):
We spend quite a bit of time on that.
Really, the best methods areeither chip budding or whip and
tongue.
Whip and tongue is mostly usedacross the nursery industry
right now, along with chipbudding or whip and tongue.
Whip and tongue is mostly usedacross the nursery industry
right now, along with chipbudding.
The only thing that doesn'treally work well with pawpaw is
inverted T budding.
That failed, actually, butother than that, most other
(18:10):
forms of crafting or buddingwork very well with pawpaw, and
there's been a lot of work donewith propagation, a lot of
interest in propagation, becausethe trees are very highly
sought after and so nurseriesare selling out of trees very
quickly.
Grafted trees usually sell fromanywhere from about $25 to $100
(18:30):
, depending on the variety each,and so they're very sought
after right now.
So folks are really interestedin trying to graft their own
trees if possible.
Curt Rom (18:40):
Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it was my
kind of understandingbiologically that pawpaw almost
has kind of a dimorphic lifecycle, that in the juvenile
stage it's a shade-loving plantand then when it passes
juvenility, enters its maturitystage, it is a full sun plant.
(19:02):
Is that correct?
And if that's true, do we skipthat shade-requiring stage by
grafting mature material?
Kirk Pomper (19:14):
So it really only comes down to when the seedlings
first germinate, until theyreach about a foot and a half,
about 18 inches.
That's when they really requireshade, or they can be in a
greenhouse.
They're more sensitive to UVlight at that time and so after
they get to that size, even ifthey're established in the field
, even if they're established inthe field, you will be able to
(19:35):
graft and not have to shade.
Now, that said, they willbenefit from tree tubes or tree
shelters at the first year, andour experience has also been
that if you have maybe some windprotection, if you've got maybe
(19:57):
trees nearby or a windbreak,that also benefits the
establishment of the trees.
At K-State we have nowindbreaks.
It's a strong wind.
As I say, it's like we'reselecting for the fittest at
this point.
Curt Rom (20:05):
Survival of the fittest in the research field?
Pretty much, yes, well, but youdo, by grafting or budding that
mature material, you doincrease the precocity of it
compared to a seedling.
Kirk Pomper (20:18):
Yeah, very much so.
Yeah, After you know I've got alittle over-release.
That's a variety of pop at homeand you know it's only about
three and a half feet tall andit has flower buds all over it.
So yeah, it doesn't.
It's really about just atwo-year, one-year delay, and
they already put out flower buds.
You don't necessarily want themto set that fruit then, you
(20:39):
want them to keep building thearchitecture of the tree, but
you will have fruit maybe withinthree to four years with a
grafted tree where it's six toseven, with the seedling.
Curt Rom (20:49):
Okay, so, following my interest in the biology of it,
tell me about the pollinationrequirements for this.
Does it requirecross-pollination, is it
self-fertile, and what is thepollinator that's needed for
pawpaw Sure?
Kirk Pomper (21:06):
That's a good question.
Actually I've had severalgraduate students in the last
few years trying to look at someof those questions.
Trying to look at some of thosequestions and right now, I
guess, going to theself-fertility or whether they
are self-compatible first.
So I did have a student whomade a number of crosses and
then we grew out the seedlings,we did DNA fingerprinting to
(21:29):
really kind of understandwhether some of those fruit and
with the seeds inside wereactually the result of some
selfing or crossing.
And we do find maybe 5%, 10% ofthe fruit on the tree was the
result of a self and then therest are crosses.
And so I think, even though wetend to say pawpaw is
(21:50):
self-incompatible, and there maybe some trees that very much
are, you know, and somevarieties, but I'd say they're
of self-unfruitful they justdon't set as many fruit, nearly
as many fruit, if they aren'tcross-pollinating.
So that said, pollen transferwith pollinators, you know they.
I've worked with papayas, I saidalmost like 27, 28 years.
(22:11):
I've seen bees in the orchardseveral times.
I think they were lost tryingto get back to their hives.
But honeybees do not pollinatepawpaws, it really comes down to
flies and beetles.
And I actually had a studentover the last two years putting
out cages with tanglefoot aroundthe flowers and then around
(22:33):
just branches trying to see whatinsects we gather that are
coming and visiting.
And you know, basically we'reseeing a lot of flies but we're
also seeing lady beetles andwe're seeing a number of other
insects.
We do see ants too, so allthese could be carrying pollen.
You know, probably the flies andthe lady beetles are the most
(22:54):
active of the pollinatorsprobably, and so we think at
this point we've got pretty gooddata that those are the most
prevalent pollinators.
So there are some other insectstoo.
He has a whole range of insectsthat he's been studiously
taking out of Tanglefoot, offthese traps and trying to ID,
and so he will have ananesthesis done pretty soon.
(23:16):
But basically, you know, we'retrying to attract non-bee
pollinators, we're attractingflies, and so they do have kind
of a meaty, kind of maroonflower kind of reminds you of
something that would attractflies and kind of a fetid odor.
So you can kind of see wheremaybe flies would be attracted.
(23:37):
And so we always kind of kidabout if you don't have a lot of
pawpaws, you might want to putout something to attract them
and people will honestly putroadkill out in the patches or
chicken parts or other things toattract the flies.
Curt Rom (23:56):
So that's an interesting intercropping system
, yes, but the bottom line isreally a commercial pawpaw
grower would benefit from amulti-cultivar block, not only
to spread production risk, butalso to enhance pollination and
cropping.
Kirk Pomper (24:13):
Absolutely.
We recommend at least threevarieties and unfortunately I
can't really tell you whichthree are the best to cross
right now.
I've worked with hazelnutself-incompatibility for a while
and that's really welldocumented.
But we've been struggling along, trying to really figure that
out in pawpaw yet.
Samson Humphrey (24:32):
That's fascinating.
What are some of the challenges?
You see pawpaw yet.
That's fascinating.
What are the?
What are some of the challengesyou see pawpaw growers facing?
Kirk Pomper (24:38):
Well, I think I think, like any new crop,
especially a perennial crop, youknow, people need to be willing
to wait to get that first fruitand so, especially with our
small, we have a lot of smallfarmers in Kentucky, about
65,000 farms and about 80% ofthem are, you know, under 200
acres.
Many, many folks we work withare making, you know, 25,000 a
(25:04):
year and they just have 10 acresand some of them are really
dependent upon that income froma small crop and so come from a
small crop and so you know a lotof interest in pawpaw in that
way.
So yeah, I think that's, youknow, the major thrust right now
is kind of our small growersbut they're not only growing
(25:25):
pawpaw, you know, and that's theother thing is try a few trees,
understand it, realize it willtake maybe five years to really
come into production and then onto the in those markets as you
build up your understanding ofthe trees, and that's what we
recommend to growers how manycultivars, how many varieties
(25:45):
exist of pawpaw?
Samson Humphrey (25:46):
you've mentioned some already, but how
many are there?
Kirk Pomper (25:50):
well, there's, there's many, many and you, and
there's probably over 50 rightnow commercially available, and
some of them, as I said, there'sseveral major kind of groups of
pawpaws that are out there.
Carwin Davis was breedingpawpaw in Michigan a while back,
(26:11):
and so there's quite a fewreleases like Tattoo and Taylor
from his program.
And then Neil Peterson has somereally good varieties that are
exceptional, like Shenandoah,susquehanna.
His naming system is namingafter Native American rivers,
and so Tallahatchie, wabash,shenandoah, and then K-State's
(26:34):
released three.
Now we have KSU Atwood, ksuBenson and then KSU Chappelle,
and they're really goodvarieties.
They ripen at slightlydifferent times KSU Benson
earlier, ksu Atwood later, ksuChappelle, kind of in the middle
, and so we're going to have twomore released next year, and
then we are breeding.
Right now we have lots ofseedlings out there from the
(26:57):
result of crosses that we'relooking at.
Samson Humphrey (27:00):
That's so cool.
Is there any differentiationbetween pawpaws that are meant
for eating and pawpaws that aremeant for making alcohol, like
you mentioned earlier?
Kirk Pomper (27:09):
That's a good question, you know.
I do think unfortunately poorerquality or poor tasting pawpaws
actually that bad flavor comesthrough sometimes in the wine.
You know I had some pawpaw winethat someone had made and I
could definitely taste thebitterness right that you
sometimes get with wild pawpawsand it came through in the wine.
(27:32):
So I think we're going to haveto be careful, as we, you know,
develop as an industry, torealize that you know, some of
the wild selections or wildtrees are producing some fruit
that really shouldn't probablybe used even in processing
(27:59):
breeding program.
Curt Rom (28:00):
What's your strategy on that?
Is it kind of a typicalrecurrent mass selection, where
you're identifying parents withunique characteristics and
trying to create offspring thatwould be selected for those
traits that you're interested in?
What's your strategy and how doyou do your breeding?
Kirk Pomper (28:14):
Yeah, that's a good question, and you know we've
got several parents that wereally are using heavily, and
one of them is sunflower and itoriginally was selected in
Kansas.
It's a very productive tree.
You know very kind of, I wouldsay, mid-sized fruit of a good
(28:35):
quality but not the best flavor,but it's very productive.
And then another one that welike using is Susco Hannah,
which is from Neil Peterson'sprogram, probably the most liked
pawpaw in taste tests that wedo, just that.
It has such a good flavor andunfortunately it's one of the
lightest producing varietiesthat's out there, and so we are
(28:57):
using those two in quite a fewof our crosses.
But there's some others tooChappelle and Atwood we've used
and some others.
There's some other material toothat we are looking at that has
less problems with disease.
Now we really only have onedisease that really is a problem
(29:18):
with pom-pom and that's a blackspot and it's a phyllosticta
organism, and sometimes there'stwo other fungal organisms that
will be together with that, butthey have black spots and are
chronic spots then on the leavesand they will get black spots
on the fruit and then when youhave a rainstorm right, the
(29:40):
fruit expands, cracks and ruinsthe fruit.
So there are some varietiesthat are definitely more
susceptible to the black spotand then some that are a little
more tolerant.
I had one I really thought wasresistant, but over time it
started, its resistance brokedown.
But so that's one thing we'rereally interested in, also the
(30:01):
yield.
So that's the main reasons whywe're looking at some of those
parents.
So right now we're just doingdirect crosses, we're not doing
any kind of back crossing.
At this point we're not quitethat far along.
So we're just looking atprogeny and right now some of
the best crosses are about yearfive, and so we're starting to
(30:23):
see already some precocitydifferences.
I'm seeing fruit on some ofthose trees this year.
Next year should be a reallygood year for us to look at some
of that material and hopefullyit won't be a drought year.
I hope it'll be a good, nicerainy year Not too rainy, but
that we'll be able to look foryield fruit quality.
Curt Rom (30:43):
If I will stick to incidents, so I understand you
know yield and quality of coursestick to incidence.
So, yeah, I understand.
Yeah, yield and quality, ofcourse, are always primary
characteristics.
Are there other characteristicsthat you would also hope?
I mean, it's such a fragilefruit.
I would assume that you'reprobably also evaluating for
things that are a little lessfragile and from a commercial
(31:03):
standpoint, is it good to havethe fruit all ripen at once?
You know, as a former applebreeder, you know we wanted one
harvest apples, right, but inpeaches it was a little bit the
opposite.
You know, for commercial freshmarket peaches, you know you
wanted to spread that harvestwindow over seven to 15 days and
(31:27):
have multiple pigs.
Yeah, what's the strategy?
That?
The other characteristics thatyou might be looking at.
Kirk Pomper (31:35):
We really haven't seen any concentrated ripening
on any material I've beenlooking at, and so everything is
pretty much you know.
It's flowering over severalweeks and then it's ripening
over several weeks and worsethan that.
You know a cluster right.
They'll often come in clustersthat one cluster will ripen,
fruit will ripen on the samecluster at different times, and
(31:57):
so it's you know.
It's just a real problem.
We've tried doing some things tomaybe concentrate ripening with
ethafon applications.
It didn't work very well, sothat's a problem.
I would love to find a moreconcentrated ripening, but we
haven't seen it.
Other things we're looking atyes, we'd like a firm pawpaw
(32:20):
that would ship better, andsescohand is probably the
firmest pawpaw that we haveright now.
That's also why we're usingthat, but it's still not firm
enough to really not bruise, andwe were talking about bruising
earlier.
You know, if we're trying toship at any distance at all and
it's soft, you're going to getbruising, you're going to get
off flavors, and so we'relooking for a firmer pawpaw.
(32:41):
Another thing would be with acolor break.
I really like to have a colorbreak, and so right now you'll
have pawpaws and some varietiesespecially.
They're green and they're softand they're ready to be picked.
But you're going to, you haveto go feel through the tree to
figure out if they're actuallyripe.
So I would love to have ayellow color break.
(33:03):
There are some varieties thathave a little bit of a yellowing
on the skin but it's not realreliable.
Like Pia, golden is one thatdoes get a little yellow.
But we've also looked and thesoftness correlation with the
color is not real great.
You know, it's there a littlebit but not great.
So I'm always telling people ifyou see a very yellow pawpaw
(33:25):
fruit, let us know, because we'dbe very interested in that
material.
So, those are some other things.
We also don't want it realsweet.
We run around 20 to 25 bricks.
We don't want a 27 or 30-brickpawpaw.
It's so sweet people will notlike it right.
So that's also sometimes kindof a cloying, just too sweet of
(33:49):
fruit and no aftertaste.
Of course that's the otherthing.
We don't maybe a melonaftertaste, which we have in
some, but we don't want a bitteraftertaste in any way.
Curt Rom (34:00):
That makes a lot of sense to me and that would lead
to increased consumer acceptanceetc.
Going back to kind of an earlypart of our conversation, you
were saying now the USDA iskeeping statistics on it, which
means that it's expanding inproduction.
What do you see as theforefront or the next steps for
(34:21):
commercialization and expandingof production systems?
Kirk Pomper (34:25):
Sure.
So you know, I think right now,based on the varieties we have,
we definitely have a nice nichecommercial market for fresh
market pawpaws at farmer'smarkets and local groceries.
If we're going to make thatnext step to ship, we're going
to need different varieties thatare firmer, don't bruise as
(34:45):
easily.
But if we don't have that, thenext step would also be
processing, and so we'veactually spent quite a bit of
time on that.
Right now and this is similarwith cherimoya and some of the
other sour sop that you'll findin the tropics we don't really
have a good method to remove theskin, and so what we'll do is
we're going to end up havingpeople cut the fruit in half, or
(35:10):
they'll just kind of rip thefruit in half and they'll
squeeze out the pulp and theseed.
And then we have a number ofdifferent devices that are
either mechanized or handcranked that you know, basically
like a saucer or a RoboCoop ifyou've ever seen something like
that which will separate thepulp and the seed very
effectively.
And so you know, that's kind ofour stopping area right now.
(35:34):
We can't get the skin off.
If I could find a really greatfood I guess technology person
and also find the right variety.
If I had a little tougher skin,I think that would actually
help me with trying to get thatskin off right too.
Right now the skin is not realthick, it kind of doesn't come
(35:57):
off, and if you leave any skinin it will kind of get bitter
and it's really not a.
It will ruin the pulp, sothat's, but that's where we're
at right now.
I know a lot of'll ruin thepulp, so that's, but that's
where we're at right now.
I know a lot of people like thepulp and so there's definitely
a market out there for processedpulp.
And the question is how muchfaster can we make that right
now?
Because we do have a lot ofpeople processing pulp right now
(36:19):
in smaller quantities or 5,000pounds, I've heard, and things
like that.
But if we want to get beyondthat, we need to have a little
more mechanization.
Curt Rom (36:31):
You mentioned you need some technological advances.
So along kind of that line, Imean we're both pomologists,
we're fruit scientists.
What are the really bigquestions you see out there?
Horticultural, the horticultureresearch questions, scientific
questions.
That's kind of one part of thisquestion I'm asking you.
The other part is is what's thescience and the research
(36:55):
questions that really have youexcited as a scientist?
Kirk Pomper (37:00):
Well, you know, I think the major problem that we
have across horticulture andmaybe all areas of ag right now
is labor and aging farmers andgrowers Right, and so we do need
ways to mechanize or or reducelabor in terms of the production
(37:20):
or or any step right now, andso I think that's that's
something we need to be aware ofand thinking about.
And so for me, with pawpaw,that's kind of going into trying
to maybe do high densitysystems and trying to trellis
more and make the labor probablyis highest for harvest in
(37:44):
pawpaw right now.
So if I can reduce the labor onharvesting, that's going to be
a significant step.
So I forgot what the secondpart of your question was.
What's?
Curt Rom (37:53):
got you excited.
I mean, are there physiologicalquestions?
You know we're facingincredibly variable weather.
What's the response toenvironment, you know?
Are there questions about theprimary transport, carbohydrates
light response, temperatureresponse, chill.
You know what are the questionsthat just have you like man,
(38:17):
I'm ready to go to work tomorrow.
Kirk Pomper (38:19):
Well, I think the biggest things are actually
trying to understand thepollination mechanisms and then
doing some more breeding.
I really would like to be ableto figure out what, what
varieties should be planted withwhich varieties to be able to
optimize pollination.
So that's.
We're going to keep working onthat.
I'm also looking at at acontrolled atmosphere, storage
(38:41):
of pawpaw.
That's something that a studentworking on right now, trying to
keep the fruit longer so it canbe sold longer.
So that's another area ofinterest.
You know, I do think you know,I know that I guess I will say
breeders always have all the fun, right?
Curt Rom (38:58):
But you're creating new things.
I mean, it's veryentrepreneurial.
Kirk Pomper (39:01):
Right.
So that's where a lot of myinterest is, too, on what we
have out there, what we're goingto be seeing in those
selections that we've made, andthen trying to go through and
see if we see some with some ofthese better characteristics
that we think of.
So that I really do like a lot.
(39:25):
But there's many things aboutpop-up that I find interesting,
and I do think that it's a cropthat will continue to grow in
this space right now as peoplecare about local foods and want
to try new things, because whowould have thought people would
like kiwis and mangoes as muchas they do now?
Right, it shows that folks aremore accepting of things that
(39:45):
they haven't been eating.
They're willing to trydifferent things.
Curt Rom (39:48):
Well, you know that makes sense.
That always makes me rememberan oft-quoted quote from Thomas
Jefferson that the greatestservice which can be rendered to
a country is to add a usefulplant or crop to its culture,
crop to its culture.
So, maya can see how that wouldget you excited to know.
I mean, you're really kind oflike living the dream of adding
(40:10):
a new fruit, a new crop, both tothe farm enterprise but also to
our plates.
It sounds very exciting.
Samson Humphrey (40:24):
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.
It sounds like you're doing alot of really exciting work and
that you've been studying thisfruit for a couple decades now.
You've had a really rich pawpawcareer, and so I'm curious.
Maybe I'm making a hastyassumption here, but I assume
that when you were a littleplant science student figuring
out what you wanted to dosomeday, I'm assuming that you
(40:46):
didn't see pawpaws in yourfuture.
I'm curious as someone who'shad such a rich and exciting
career.
What would you recommendstudents keep in mind as they
emerge?
Kirk Pomper (40:59):
Sure.
Well, you know I look at mypath to where I am and you know
I've worked on a lot ofdifferent crops.
I've worked on everything fromorchids to beans, to
strawberries, to hazelnuts andpawpaw, and I've been around a
lot of other students who areworking with a lot of different
things.
And that's what I always tellmy students Make sure you know
(41:22):
what you're going to, know yourproject, but also make sure you
know what other students aredoing too.
You cannot accumulate enoughknowledge.
The more breadth of knowledgeyou have of all horticulture,
that's going to serve you reallywell down the line, because you
never know what path you mighttake.
You may end up all of a suddenwith an opportunity to go and
work in a totally different crop, and yet you know something
(41:43):
about it, or at least you canreason out and do the critical
thinking that you need to do,because you have talked to
somebody already.
So that's why I do tell peopleto be the sponge.
Try to learn as much as you canabout the other folks around
you, because I was lucky enoughto be around a number of
different crops and projects toofolks growing grapes and
(42:04):
hazelnuts when I was a PhDstudent, and that really helped.
Curt Rom (42:08):
Well, and here you are .
You are the guy that picked uppawpaws and put them in your
basket and have made a careerout of that.
Well, Dr Pomper, I want tothank you.
This was a really enjoyableconversation.
I know I learned a lot.
I'm sure our listeners learneda lot.
Also, thank you for working onpawpaw.
You know it's a lot of us workon other crops that are real
(42:31):
popular, but if we don't havescientists that are working on
these new crops, yeah, we don'tlive to the challenge that
Thomas Jefferson gave us.
So thank you for doing thatwork, Really appreciate it.
It was a great conversation.
I enjoyed it.
What did you think, Samson?
Samson Humphrey (42:51):
I love it.
I knew nothing, next to nothing, about pawpaw before this
conversation and I'm about to goout and find one and maybe
multiple.
I'll have to try multiple ofthem and eat them this weekend
and let you know what I think,kurt.
Kirk Pomper (43:05):
Absolutely.
Curt Rom (43:06):
Yeah, we have a pawpaw farmer locally sells at our
farmer's market, and actuallyone of my horticulture
classmates.
So it's always kind of fun andto me it's one of those crops
that it's only at the farmer'smarket for about three weeks and
so people kind of wait for itand, talking to the one or two
(43:28):
farmers that sell it, they don'tkeep them very long because
people know it's here today andgone tomorrow.
Well, this was lots of fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Dr Popper, thanks for joiningus today.
Thank you I really enjoyed it.
Samson Humphrey (43:48):
Hey, Kurt, that was a fantastic episode, don't
you think?
Curt Rom (44:05):
Yeah, I really enjoyed that.
You know, I've known Dr Pomperfor 30 years or something and
I've heard him we were friendsthrough the ASHS and I've heard
him speak on elements of hisresearch, but it was fascinating
to me to hear about croppingand production.
Samson Humphrey (44:18):
Yeah, I had only ever heard of this plant as
like just a wild.
You know, I took my littlebotany course the first year of
college and I could recognizethe plant, like in a forest, but
it was always in Florida.
It was always very small andwasn't the big crop that it
(44:39):
seems to be up a little bitfarther north.
I was really fascinated to hearhow many growers there are for
this plant.
He was giving numbers like inthe hundreds of growers
throughout several statesgrowing pawpaw and selling
pawpaw.
I was really surprised by that.
Curt Rom (44:57):
Yeah, and then the fact that it's now a USDA census
crop I mean, it's a recognized,legitimate horticultural crop.
It's something to pay attentionto.
And you know, I was alsointerested in his talking about
the work that he does and I wasfascinated by the breeding work
(45:18):
and the research that supportshis breeding work related to
pollination, propagation, earlycultivation.
Samson Humphrey (45:26):
Yeah, so many reasons to be excited and so
many avenues for collaboration.
He was talking aboutcollaborating with people in
different fields.
Yeah it seems like a reallyexciting place to be.
To learn more about this topic,visit the Facebook page KSU
Pawpaw.
(45:46):
That's KSU as in.
Kentucky State University.
Additionally, there will be aPawpaw conference next September
, hosted by Kentucky StateUniversity and other science
organizations, so keep an eye onthe Facebook page for more news
.
You should also check out DrPomper's lecture on YouTube
titled All About Pawpaw Growing,harvesting and Eating America's
(46:06):
Forgotten Superfruit.
He also has recently publisheda paper titled Comparison of
Grafting and Budding PropagationTechniques for Cultivars of the
North American Pawpaw.
He published this in thejournal Hort Technology, which
is one of the open sourcepeer-reviewed journals published
by the American Society forHorticultural Science.
You can reach out to him atkirkpomper at kysuedu and you
(46:30):
can follow him on LinkedIn formore information.
Curt Rom (46:34):
If this podcast and interview resonates with you, I
strongly recommend you renewingyour membership or joining the
American Society forHorticultural Science.
If you'd like more informationabout the American Society for
Horticultural Science in general, you can go to the website
ashsorg.
Samson Humphrey (46:56):
Thank you, kurt , this has been fantastic.
Curt Rom (46:59):
Thank you, samson, I enjoyed it a lot.
The ASHS podcast Plants, peopleand Science is made possible by
member dues and volunteerism.
Please go to ashsorg to learnmore.
If you're not already a memberof the ASHS, we invite you to
(47:27):
join.
Ashs is a not-for-profit andyour donations are
tax-deductible.
Samson Humphrey (47:31):
This episode was hosted by Samson Humphrey
and Kurt Rome.
Special thanks to our audioengineer, andrew Sheldorf, our
research specialists Lena Wilsonand Andrew Sheldorf, our ASHS
support team, sarah Powell andSally Murphy, and our musician
John Clark.
Thanks for listening.
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