April 21, 2025 • 32 mins
You can’t build a successful business without relationships - and you can’t have relationships without conflict.
In this powerful conversation, I’m joined by Dr. Donna Marino, a licensed clinical psychologist and family business consultant, to talk about one thing most female entrepreneurs avoid (but desperately need to get better at): CONFLICT.
The truth is that your ability to navigate conflict directly impacts your long-term business success. Whether it’s with a client, contractor, collaborator, or vendor, knowing how to stay grounded and handle hard conversations is a leadership skill we all need.
In this episode, we talk about:
• Why conflict is a normal and necessary part of doing business
• How emotional dysregulation hijacks your brain - and what to do instead
• How to prep for tough conversations so they don’t spiral into drama
• How to build your "conflict courage muscle"
If you've ever bitten your tongue, avoided an issue, or said “it’s fine” when it really wasn’t - this episode will give you the tools (and the mindset) to handle things differently next time.
Links & References:
- Join us at our next PWR Virtual Speed Networking Event!
- For even deeper connections, check out the Powerful Women Rising Community!
- Connect with Dr. Marino on LinkedIn
- Listen to Dr. Marino's Courageous Conflict podcast!
Connect with Your Host!
Melissa Snow is a Business Relationship Strategist dedicated to empowering women in entrepreneurship. She founded the Powerful Women Rising Community, which provides female business owners with essential support and resources for business growth.
Melissa's other mission is to revolutionize networking, promoting authenticity and genuine connections over sleazy sales tactics. She runs an incredible monthly Virtual Speed Networking Event which you can attend once at no cost using the code FIRSTTIME
She lives in Colorado Springs with two girl dogs, two boy cats and any number of foster kittens. She loves iced coffee, Taylor Swift, and Threads.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello Dr Donna.
Welcome to the Powerful WomenRising podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thank you so much.
I'm really happy to be heretoday.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yes, me too.
We're talking about a reallyinteresting topic today, and I
think this is a great topicbecause it's not one that you
often think of when you think ofentrepreneurship or running a
business, but it's somethingthat comes up a lot, that I feel
like people don't talk about alot, so this is going to be
(00:30):
really good.
Before we dive in, telleverybody a little bit about you
and about what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Sure, my name is Dr Donna Marino and I'm a licensed
clinical psychologist, but whatI do now is I do advisory and
consulting with familybusinesses, and so I kind of do
the marriage between businessand psychology and help families
navigate all of the dynamicsand history and influences that
(01:02):
comes through being a family andenters into that family
business.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
That's awesome.
That's such a specific nichetoo, which is very cool, but I
also think it applies to a lotof different business
relationships too, especiallywhat we're talking about today
with conflict.
Like I, have friends who hadbusiness partnerships that they
were in for many, many yearsthat ended badly.
I have people who were inbusiness partnerships for many
(01:28):
years that ended nicely, andeven just relationships with
clients or potential clients orformer clients.
There's going to be conflicteverywhere, and so I'm excited
to talk to you about the bestways for us to navigate that,
whether it is with our family,in our business or with other
people.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Oh, absolutely.
And I would even say, melissa,that solopreneurs still have
conflict.
It comes up with their vendorsand the people they contract
with and the programs they buyto grow their businesses.
So unfortunately, we can't getaway from it, so we might as
well just dive in.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, I can attest to that, because I have tried to
get away from it and it turnsout you can't.
Full disclosure.
I am like about as conflictavoidant as they come, so this
is going to be great.
I don't even like to say theword.
So okay, when we are talkingabout conflict in a relationship
(02:29):
, what are some tips that youhave for navigating that
conflict or communicating aboutthat conflict or dealing with it
in a way that we can do ourbest to try to preserve the
relationship?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, so I know the quick pat answer is empathy.
Right, but empathy is hard anddo we really know what it is?
It's sort of one of those wordsthat gets thrown around a lot.
What I think, before you caneven have empathy, is to be able
to not make assumptions, to beable to kind of create some kind
(03:07):
of neutral ground there whereyou can say, actually, I don't
know how that person is feeling,I can't put myself in their
shoes yet because I don't knowhow they're feeling.
I don't know what happened tothem on their way walking into
my office or before they pickedup the phone to call me, giving
(03:28):
people some grace by being moreof a blank slate and thinking
I'm telling myself a storyalready that's got me riled up
as to why this person did thisor said this or what they meant.
But that's just my story.
Can I get the facts?
(03:49):
Can I see what's going on forthis person?
And try to just kind of erasethat whiteboard before you start
talking.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
How do we do that, though, if we're having a lot of
emotion?
Yeah, specifically, a lot ofanger.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yes, you know you can't run into something when
you're high with emotion.
When you get high with emotionlike that, your frontal lobe
just basically shuts down.
You go into fight, flight orfreeze.
Your whole sympathetic nervoussystem is fired up and what the
(04:26):
body does is it shuts off thoselogical thinking areas of the
brain and all your limbs andeverything are actually what are
getting the blood circulationand all of that because it's
preparing you for a fight and toeither get out of there or to
go to fisticuffs.
(04:46):
So while you're in that heat ofthat anger, that's really not
the time to do anything.
Don't make a decision, don'thave a conversation, walk away,
go for a run, go for a drive ifyou can do it safely.
But do something first as arelease and then when your brain
comes back online again, thenyou can approach it.
(05:09):
But a lot of times, whether itis panic, we tell people to
breathe.
Well, that's great, but we'vejust got to get through the
moment.
And if they can breathe, great.
But we have to work at justresettling that nervous system
before we can move into alogical mind.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
That makes sense.
Okay, so I have gone for a walkor I've pet the cat or listen
to music.
Whatever I'm going to do, I'vecalmed down a little bit.
I'm able to come into theconversation thinking like, okay
, let me not make assumptions,let me just see where this
person's coming from and, youknow, kind of check it out and
see if maybe what I'm assumingis actually true or maybe it's
(05:53):
not.
So what do I do then when I gointo that conversation and I'm
trying to come from that place,but the other person is coming
from the like, angry, accusatory, defensive place?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm going to say there's one more step before you
walk into the room, right?
So now you've calmed down, youcan organize your thoughts and
you need to think about okay, ifother days of the week and
other moments I actually likethis person, respect this person
, believe they have goodintentions, asking yourself kind
(06:28):
of the question well, if thatperson is truly all those things
, why would this happen?
And just getting yourself intoa place of knowing that we're
coming from good intent, tryingto consider what is our mutual
purpose in this, what is ourmutual ground.
(06:49):
You know, if you work togetherin a business, can I agree that
we both want what's best for thebusiness, and maybe I don't
agree with what they did, but atthe end of the day, we both
have this in common.
And then next, asking yourselfwhat do I want out of this
conversation?
You need to walk in thereknowing that, regardless of how
(07:14):
that person's feeling, how angrythey might still be, what's my
intention?
What do I want?
What do I have control of toinfluence that?
And then, what do I need to letgo?
Another thing I'll throw inthere and I know it's a lot is
really thinking about the personwho's on the other side and how
(07:37):
do they communicate?
What do you know about them asfar as their triggers, their
defenses?
It's really I think about, withleadership, any relationship if
there is something I want, howdo I need to communicate it to
get it?
It's not necessarily the way wewould communicate it.
(08:00):
That person may take ininformation differently than me,
they may process longer, theymay be more emotional, all of
these things.
So it's really, you know, if Ihad to summarize all that, it's
really kind of zoning in on whoit is you're approaching, what
it is you have in common andwhat it is you want, and then
(08:24):
you get to get into the room.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Okay.
So if I'm in the room now, I'vedone all those things, and do
you ever recommend setting someground rules before you have the
conversation?
Like listen, I know this is avery emotionally charged
situation.
You're frustrated, I'mfrustrated.
Can we agree that we're goingto sit here until it's resolved
(08:50):
and no one's going to storm out?
Or can we agree we're not goingto yell and call each other
names, especially if that'ssomething that has happened in
the past?
You know this is a thing thathappens with this person.
Is that something that'shelpful?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Absolutely Is that something that's helpful
Absolutely.
And you know, when I facilitatefamily meetings, I have a list
of ground rules that I print outand they have to sign off on
that they agree to.
So in certain contexts that aremore formalized, like saying
(09:29):
okay, I really need to have thisconversation with you I know
that this triggers both of ourbuttons I want to agree that
we'll talk about behaviors, notcharacter or person.
We will keep it in the firstperson as much as we can.
This is what I saw.
This is what I felt.
Is that what you intended?
(09:50):
And if you need a break, please, if any, if either of us needs
a break because we're overheatedin this, let's say I need five
and then come back.
And if you come back and stillneed five, you can do that, but
there's no storming off andthere's no just forgetting about
(10:13):
it and not resolving it.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, and then when you storm off, I don't have
to wonder like is he comingback?
Are we still having thisconversation?
Do I keep sitting here?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, and this works with spouses, it works with kids
.
It's, you know, relationships.
There's often one person whoescalates and attacks right,
goes the more aggressive, and Idon't mean like physically
attacks, but they're all riledup.
And then there's the person whohates the conflict and shrinks
(10:47):
and will shut up and likeanything to make this over and
they shrink right.
So you have to find space forboth those people.
If that person is getting toooverwhelmed to be able to engage
, they need to be able to calltimeout.
But that person who's pursuing,if you don't give them a, I'm
(11:10):
taking a timeout.
It doesn't mean I'm notlistening, it doesn't mean we
won't finish this, but I amgetting so flooded I need to
reset myself so that personknows you're not blowing me off,
we will finish this.
It may not be as quick as Iwant, because usually that
person is just so eager to getto the end of it and they want
(11:33):
to engage and the other personis just like I said they're
flooded, their physiology can'ttake anymore and that's why they
start shutting down that makessense.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I feel like all of this sounds good in theory and I
picture like I'm a veryemotionally intelligent person
who's good at relationships andcommunication and I'm having a
conflict with another person whois also very emotionally
intelligent and good atrelationships and communication.
So we're going to follow theserules and we're going to do
these things and it's going tobe great.
(12:06):
How do we handle it when it'snot great?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
You know there's several ways For one.
You may have to do it in smallsnippets, kind of like I'm
saying where you okay, we'llcome back to this tomorrow.
Sometimes you need thatobjective third person, right,
so a facilitator.
It could be a therapist if it'sa marital relationship, or just
(12:33):
another non-partial personwho's in the office or you know,
depending on what thatrelationship is.
You don't want to put people inthe middle, but sometimes we
need help having thoseconversations.
I think that what I love incoaching is working with both
(12:53):
the individuals and the peopletogether and you really get a
picture of where each person iscoming from and what they really
mean and what they're reallytrying to say and what you know
what insecurities are gettingkicked up, and then you can help
facilitate that conversationbecause you kind of know who
they are.
But you know, when it's justthe two of you, you can do
(13:17):
things too, like you know,taking it off site into a more
pleasurable activity orsomething, just trying to
diffuse those defenses andreally rely on the relationship.
If there's a relationship underall that fighting, there's a
(13:38):
good bedrock.
Keep coming back to that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I love that, because that's one of the things
that I teach is that businessesare built on relationships,
right?
Regardless of what kind ofrelationship it is, whether it's
a referral partner or a clientor a vendor.
If you've put in the work andthe effort to have that
foundation, I think it's goingto be easier to navigate these
(14:05):
conflicts together.
And, to your point too, youhave more of an understanding
that, like, okay, we both are onthe same page in terms of what
we're trying to accomplish here.
Like, if it's a vendor thatyou're having a conflict with,
you both have the same goal ofserving your clients well.
Right, they want you to behappy.
You want your clients to behappy, because that's how we get
(14:28):
referrals and we get morebusiness.
We're all in that together.
So how do we then make surethat you are able to accomplish
your part, I'm able toaccomplish my part, and if you
have that relationship, you knowthat that person is not trying
to screw you over.
You know that they aretrustworthy.
You know that they are just asinvested in you coming out of
(14:51):
this happy as they arethemselves coming out of it
happy, and I think that wouldprobably make a big difference
too.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Definitely, and I think, as women, more of the
problem starts because we doavoid conflict, and when we hire
our vendors especially us, youknow, solopreneurs we hire
within a close network.
We want to help each other, wewant to help each other grow our
businesses, and then whensomething's not quite right,
(15:21):
it's very uncomfortable.
We like that other person, weknow them, we trust them, and
then, though, if we don't saysomething first, we rob our
friend who's running thisbusiness, an opportunity to grow
and to fix something in a safeenvironment, before it happens
(15:42):
with a client that might not beas gracious or understanding.
So a lot of it is reallydismantling our beliefs around
conflict and what it is and whatit does, because a lot of women
it's.
You know, I like this person, Idon't want to hurt her feelings
, but we can't get better andgrow and, you know, avoid more
(16:08):
risky situations if we're notopen enough to share with each
other.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Right, yeah, and I love what you said about kind of
reframing it as you're actuallydoing the person a favor in
some ways by addressing theconflict, because I think you
know I know a lot of people arelike me that we feel like, well,
if I say something that's mean,like I'm much better about this
than it used to be.
But I remember I took my nieceout to lunch one day and she was
(16:35):
probably eight or nine at thetime, and her lunch came with a
little bowl of ice cream and sheate like a couple bites of it.
And then she was like I'mreally full.
I'm like, well, you don't haveto eat it all.
And she said, no, I'm going toeat it because I don't want to
hurt his feelings, meaning thewaiter who brought her the ice
cream.
(16:57):
Oh my goodness, Honey, I promisethat waiter does not care if
you eat the ice cream or not,Like he's not emotionally
invested in this ice cream.
But we have this feeling, Ithink, especially among women
and we could get into the wholepatriarchy and where it comes
from but that addressingconflict or expressing that
we're unhappy with something ismean and we're going to hurt
(17:19):
people's feelings and we need tojust be nice and not rock the
boat.
But I love how you reframed itas like giving other people the
opportunity to learn, to grow,to make it right with you.
Otherwise you just walk awayand are like okay, well, I'll
never work with him or recommendanyone work with him ever again
, and that's not fair to thatperson either.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Right and you never gave them a chance to fix it.
And now you have a bad taste inyour mouth.
You won't recommend them andthat can be the thing that
damages your relationship,because there's maybe some
passive-aggressive stuff comingout or maybe some avoidance
coming out.
I have to tell you there's afamily business near us that is
(18:03):
a bakery, and the first cake Iordered from them was just
amazing.
It is now my favorite cake everand so I had high expectations.
I ordered our next cake and itwas for my daughter's birthday
and she wanted this specificheart cake and it looked
phenomenal.
(18:24):
But when I cut into it, itwasn't what we ordered.
On the inside.
They had made a mistake and Iwent back to them and I told
them and they credited me.
I just told them.
They credited me the wholeamount of this very expensive
cake and I was like no, youdon't have to do that, we ate it
(18:46):
.
It just wasn't.
And they were like nope, andthey refused to not give it to
us.
I wrote them the most glowingreview on Google, put up all the
pictures.
I still go there.
I refer them to everyone, right?
So here's this like mistakethat I could have been like well
they were.
They were good the one time,but then they I could have been
(19:11):
like, well, they were good theone time.
But then I brought it up and itgave them a huge opportunity,
because I get alerts all thetime about how many people have
looked at those cake pictures.
If you can reframe it that,this really is an opportunity
and it may be uncomfortable forme, but it's actually a gift to
that person.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah.
Now if you get the courage toaddress it and you try to do
them this favor because you'resuch a nice person, and they
tell you to pound sand, that'sdifferent.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, yeah, that's a big piece of it.
This has been coming up a lotin my meetings with people is
learning how to do what you havecontrol over have the
conversation and let go of allthe stuff you don't.
And that is very hard but it'svery life-changing to do that,
(20:07):
to know.
I came, I brought this to theirattention and gave them an
opportunity to fix it, to makeit right, and they chose not to.
Or I entered this reallyhigh-conflict conversation at
work where this person called meout in front of everyone in a
meeting and it wasn't even mymistake.
(20:28):
They just didn't understand theprocess.
I offered the opportunity tofix it.
They chose not to.
Okay, now I know the characterof that person and I can make
better choices for myself.
You know looking at that, butit's hard because people want to
enter these conversations andknow what's going to happen and
(20:51):
that they are guaranteed theresult they want if they have
the conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, we want to know it's going to go exactly how we
planned it in our minds,otherwise I'm out.
So I think there is an elementof this that I want to touch on
before we wrap up too.
That is about kind of what'sgoing on inside, and I know
there's a lot that goes intoavoiding conflict or being able
(21:19):
to face conflict, but I think abig part of it is courage and
just developing that courage togive yourself a voice to say
what you need to say, andparticularly for women, who are
in male-dominated fields, Iwould imagine that's even more
difficult.
So what advice do you have forentrepreneurs, women in
(21:40):
particular?
To start to develop more ofthat courage.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, it's a muscle like anything else.
So you don't go to the gym andlift a weight one time and be
like, yes, I am strong and Inever have to do that again.
Unfortunately, right,unfortunately, it's something
you develop over time and youcan take it in tidbits, speaking
up in a meeting or having aprivate conversation, starting
(22:08):
with someone who feels reallysafe to you first, you know,
because some women, even inclose relationships, can't speak
up and say those things.
Sometimes it's the closerelationships that are the
hardest too.
So picking some of that lowhanging fruit, it can even be as
simple, as I know women whosomeone will bring, like the
(22:30):
wrong food to the table or thewrong order oh, I said no cheese
and there's cheese on this.
Well, I'll just eat it anyway.
As simple as I'm sorry, thiswasn't my order and sending it
back.
So looking for thoseopportunities for growth and not
expecting yourself to be ableto do it all at once, but to
(22:51):
make these changes, and settingyour mind on continuous
improvement rather than anovernight like whammo.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, and I can see that in myown.
I mean, I totally was thatwoman.
I will just eat it without thecheese, I will.
I don't know what that is, it'snot what I asked for, but I'll
eat it anyway.
I was totally her.
I'm not her anymore now and mythe niece, who is now 18, still
sometimes she'll, she'll be like, isn't that embarrassing?
(23:22):
I'm like it's not embarrassing.
I'm like I paid $6 for thiscoffee.
This is going to taste exactlyhow I imagined it was going to
taste when I forked over my $6.
Like that's, why would I notsay something?
And I'm nice about it, I'malways nice about it, but I'm
going to get the coffee that Iordered and I.
But I do think, looking back onyou know my journey with
(23:46):
conflict or even just speakingup for myself and what could be
perceived as conflict, itdefinitely did get better over
time the more I was able to doit and I think practicing in
situations like that, where youdon't have a lot at stake, right
, like if I tell the person atStarbucks, like this isn't what
(24:06):
I ordered, can you remake it?
And they hate me forever.
I don't care, like I don't evenknow their name.
Well, I do know their namebecause I go to Starbucks a lot,
but you know what I mean asopposed to like starting with a
conversation with my dad aboutsomething highly contentious,
right, like there's a lot moreat stake in that conversation.
(24:27):
And I think starting with thoseKind of easier situations and
showing yourself like, ok, Istood up for myself, I gave
myself a voice, I asked for whatI needed and everything was
fine.
Nobody died.
Everything worked out Makes ita little bit easier.
In the more hard situationsworked out makes it a little bit
(24:49):
easier in the more hardsituations.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, you're like collecting your success arrows
right and as you build that,you're like, okay, there's
another in the quiver and I cando this.
And also, you know, I want tosay sometimes people think,
because I advocate for thesekinds of discussions, this is
not about just trying to haveconflict everywhere you go, but
(25:12):
being willing to have the braveconversation, and that's what it
is.
You said courage.
It is, it's courageous, it'sbrave as women.
There's a lot of culturalmessaging about both genders,
about what it means to be maleor what it means to be female
and what gender means.
(25:34):
We're going through a wholetransition right now.
With that, it's even right orwrong, it's just it's here and
now that we're conscious of itall, it's our time to
reconstruct that and to look atwhat no longer serves us.
(25:56):
A lot of this behavior came outof evolution and it was
survival of the species.
But evolution takes a long timeand we are not the same as we
were when this all began andit's getting to really know
ourselves.
It's that piece of emotionalintelligence of really knowing
(26:17):
ourselves and knowing reallythat we have something to offer
and that our voice is valued andbeing brave is important not
just for us but all thegenerations of women to come
behind us.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, yeah.
All the girls who think theyneed to eat their ice cream so
they don't hurt the waiter'sfeelings yes, they need to see
us be like, yeah, I don't wantthis ice cream, thanks.
And see him be like, okay, no,biggie, yeah, I love that, the
ripple effect of things.
For sure, this has been so good.
I feel like we could keep goingfor another hour, but let's
(26:56):
wrap it up for today.
If people want to connect withyou more, if they want to learn
more about what you do, what isthe best way for them to get in
touch with you?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
All my handles are the same, so it's Dr D-R Donna
Marino, m-a-r-i-n-o.
So, whether that's LinkedIn ormy website or Instagram, and
always feel free to drop me aline I do answer my emails and
LinkedIn messengers and love tohear from people.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Awesome, I will put those links in the show notes,
but super easy when it's thesame everywhere.
I tell people that too.
I'm like it's the name of mybusiness, it's my Instagram,
it's my the name of my podcast.
Like just put powerful womenrising anywhere in the universe,
you will find me somehow.
Perfect, I love it.
Thank you so much, donna.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thank you.
Hello Dr Donna.
Welcome to the Powerful WomenRising podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thank you so much.
I'm really happy to be heretoday.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yes, me too.
We're talking about a reallyinteresting topic today, and I
think this is a great topicbecause it's not one that you
often think of when you think ofentrepreneurship or running a
business, but it's somethingthat comes up a lot, that I feel
like people don't talk about alot, so this is going to be
(00:30):
really good.
Before we dive in, telleverybody a little bit about you
and about what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Sure, my name is Dr Donna Marino and I'm a licensed
clinical psychologist, but whatI do now is I do advisory and
consulting with familybusinesses, and so I kind of do
the marriage between businessand psychology and help families
navigate all of the dynamicsand history and influences that
(01:02):
comes through being a family andenters into that family
business.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
That's awesome.
That's such a specific nichetoo, which is very cool, but I
also think it applies to a lotof different business
relationships too, especiallywhat we're talking about today
with conflict.
Like I, have friends who hadbusiness partnerships that they
were in for many, many yearsthat ended badly.
I have people who were inbusiness partnerships for many
(01:28):
years that ended nicely, andeven just relationships with
clients or potential clients orformer clients.
There's going to be conflicteverywhere, and so I'm excited
to talk to you about the bestways for us to navigate that,
whether it is with our family,in our business or with other
people.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Oh, absolutely.
And I would even say, melissa,that solopreneurs still have
conflict.
It comes up with their vendorsand the people they contract
with and the programs they buyto grow their businesses.
So unfortunately, we can't getaway from it, so we might as
well just dive in.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, I can attest to that, because I have tried to
get away from it and it turnsout you can't.
Full disclosure.
I am like about as conflictavoidant as they come, so this
is going to be great.
I don't even like to say theword.
So okay, when we are talkingabout conflict in a relationship
(02:29):
, what are some tips that youhave for navigating that
conflict or communicating aboutthat conflict or dealing with it
in a way that we can do ourbest to try to preserve the
relationship?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, so I know the quick pat answer is empathy.
Right, but empathy is hard anddo we really know what it is?
It's sort of one of those wordsthat gets thrown around a lot.
What I think, before you caneven have empathy, is to be able
to not make assumptions, to beable to kind of create some kind
(03:07):
of neutral ground there whereyou can say, actually, I don't
know how that person is feeling,I can't put myself in their
shoes yet because I don't knowhow they're feeling.
I don't know what happened tothem on their way walking into
my office or before they pickedup the phone to call me, giving
(03:28):
people some grace by being moreof a blank slate and thinking
I'm telling myself a storyalready that's got me riled up
as to why this person did thisor said this or what they meant.
But that's just my story.
Can I get the facts?
(03:49):
Can I see what's going on forthis person?
And try to just kind of erasethat whiteboard before you start
talking.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
How do we do that, though, if we're having a lot of
emotion?
Yeah, specifically, a lot ofanger.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yes, you know you can't run into something when
you're high with emotion.
When you get high with emotionlike that, your frontal lobe
just basically shuts down.
You go into fight, flight orfreeze.
Your whole sympathetic nervoussystem is fired up and what the
(04:26):
body does is it shuts off thoselogical thinking areas of the
brain and all your limbs andeverything are actually what are
getting the blood circulationand all of that because it's
preparing you for a fight and toeither get out of there or to
go to fisticuffs.
(04:46):
So while you're in that heat ofthat anger, that's really not
the time to do anything.
Don't make a decision, don'thave a conversation, walk away,
go for a run, go for a drive ifyou can do it safely.
But do something first as arelease and then when your brain
comes back online again, thenyou can approach it.
(05:09):
But a lot of times, whether itis panic, we tell people to
breathe.
Well, that's great, but we'vejust got to get through the
moment.
And if they can breathe, great.
But we have to work at justresettling that nervous system
before we can move into alogical mind.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
That makes sense.
Okay, so I have gone for a walkor I've pet the cat or listen
to music.
Whatever I'm going to do, I'vecalmed down a little bit.
I'm able to come into theconversation thinking like, okay
, let me not make assumptions,let me just see where this
person's coming from and, youknow, kind of check it out and
see if maybe what I'm assumingis actually true or maybe it's
(05:53):
not.
So what do I do then when I gointo that conversation and I'm
trying to come from that place,but the other person is coming
from the like, angry, accusatory, defensive place?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm going to say there's one more step before you
walk into the room, right?
So now you've calmed down, youcan organize your thoughts and
you need to think about okay, ifother days of the week and
other moments I actually likethis person, respect this person
, believe they have goodintentions, asking yourself kind
(06:28):
of the question well, if thatperson is truly all those things
, why would this happen?
And just getting yourself intoa place of knowing that we're
coming from good intent, tryingto consider what is our mutual
purpose in this, what is ourmutual ground.
(06:49):
You know, if you work togetherin a business, can I agree that
we both want what's best for thebusiness, and maybe I don't
agree with what they did, but atthe end of the day, we both
have this in common.
And then next, asking yourselfwhat do I want out of this
conversation?
You need to walk in thereknowing that, regardless of how
(07:14):
that person's feeling, how angrythey might still be, what's my
intention?
What do I want?
What do I have control of toinfluence that?
And then, what do I need to letgo?
Another thing I'll throw inthere and I know it's a lot is
really thinking about the personwho's on the other side and how
(07:37):
do they communicate?
What do you know about them asfar as their triggers, their
defenses?
It's really I think about, withleadership, any relationship if
there is something I want, howdo I need to communicate it to
get it?
It's not necessarily the way wewould communicate it.
(08:00):
That person may take ininformation differently than me,
they may process longer, theymay be more emotional, all of
these things.
So it's really, you know, if Ihad to summarize all that, it's
really kind of zoning in on whoit is you're approaching, what
it is you have in common andwhat it is you want, and then
(08:24):
you get to get into the room.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Okay.
So if I'm in the room now, I'vedone all those things, and do
you ever recommend setting someground rules before you have the
conversation?
Like listen, I know this is avery emotionally charged
situation.
You're frustrated, I'mfrustrated.
Can we agree that we're goingto sit here until it's resolved
(08:50):
and no one's going to storm out?
Or can we agree we're not goingto yell and call each other
names, especially if that'ssomething that has happened in
the past?
You know this is a thing thathappens with this person.
Is that something that'shelpful?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Absolutely Is that something that's helpful
Absolutely.
And you know, when I facilitatefamily meetings, I have a list
of ground rules that I print outand they have to sign off on
that they agree to.
So in certain contexts that aremore formalized, like saying
(09:29):
okay, I really need to have thisconversation with you I know
that this triggers both of ourbuttons I want to agree that
we'll talk about behaviors, notcharacter or person.
We will keep it in the firstperson as much as we can.
This is what I saw.
This is what I felt.
Is that what you intended?
(09:50):
And if you need a break, please, if any, if either of us needs
a break because we're overheatedin this, let's say I need five
and then come back.
And if you come back and stillneed five, you can do that, but
there's no storming off andthere's no just forgetting about
(10:13):
it and not resolving it.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, and then when you storm off, I don't have
to wonder like is he comingback?
Are we still having thisconversation?
Do I keep sitting here?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, and this works with spouses, it works with kids
.
It's, you know, relationships.
There's often one person whoescalates and attacks right,
goes the more aggressive, and Idon't mean like physically
attacks, but they're all riledup.
And then there's the person whohates the conflict and shrinks
(10:47):
and will shut up and likeanything to make this over and
they shrink right.
So you have to find space forboth those people.
If that person is getting toooverwhelmed to be able to engage
, they need to be able to calltimeout.
But that person who's pursuing,if you don't give them a, I'm
(11:10):
taking a timeout.
It doesn't mean I'm notlistening, it doesn't mean we
won't finish this, but I amgetting so flooded I need to
reset myself so that personknows you're not blowing me off,
we will finish this.
It may not be as quick as Iwant, because usually that
person is just so eager to getto the end of it and they want
(11:33):
to engage and the other personis just like I said they're
flooded, their physiology can'ttake anymore and that's why they
start shutting down that makessense.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I feel like all of this sounds good in theory and I
picture like I'm a veryemotionally intelligent person
who's good at relationships andcommunication and I'm having a
conflict with another person whois also very emotionally
intelligent and good atrelationships and communication.
So we're going to follow theserules and we're going to do
these things and it's going tobe great.
(12:06):
How do we handle it when it'snot great?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
You know there's several ways For one.
You may have to do it in smallsnippets, kind of like I'm
saying where you okay, we'llcome back to this tomorrow.
Sometimes you need thatobjective third person, right,
so a facilitator.
It could be a therapist if it'sa marital relationship, or just
(12:33):
another non-partial personwho's in the office or you know,
depending on what thatrelationship is.
You don't want to put people inthe middle, but sometimes we
need help having thoseconversations.
I think that what I love incoaching is working with both
(12:53):
the individuals and the peopletogether and you really get a
picture of where each person iscoming from and what they really
mean and what they're reallytrying to say and what you know
what insecurities are gettingkicked up, and then you can help
facilitate that conversationbecause you kind of know who
they are.
But you know, when it's justthe two of you, you can do
(13:17):
things too, like you know,taking it off site into a more
pleasurable activity orsomething, just trying to
diffuse those defenses andreally rely on the relationship.
If there's a relationship underall that fighting, there's a
(13:38):
good bedrock.
Keep coming back to that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I love that, because that's one of the things
that I teach is that businessesare built on relationships,
right?
Regardless of what kind ofrelationship it is, whether it's
a referral partner or a clientor a vendor.
If you've put in the work andthe effort to have that
foundation, I think it's goingto be easier to navigate these
(14:05):
conflicts together.
And, to your point too, youhave more of an understanding
that, like, okay, we both are onthe same page in terms of what
we're trying to accomplish here.
Like, if it's a vendor thatyou're having a conflict with,
you both have the same goal ofserving your clients well.
Right, they want you to behappy.
You want your clients to behappy, because that's how we get
(14:28):
referrals and we get morebusiness.
We're all in that together.
So how do we then make surethat you are able to accomplish
your part, I'm able toaccomplish my part, and if you
have that relationship, you knowthat that person is not trying
to screw you over.
You know that they aretrustworthy.
You know that they are just asinvested in you coming out of
(14:51):
this happy as they arethemselves coming out of it
happy, and I think that wouldprobably make a big difference
too.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Definitely, and I think, as women, more of the
problem starts because we doavoid conflict, and when we hire
our vendors especially us, youknow, solopreneurs we hire
within a close network.
We want to help each other, wewant to help each other grow our
businesses, and then whensomething's not quite right,
(15:21):
it's very uncomfortable.
We like that other person, weknow them, we trust them, and
then, though, if we don't saysomething first, we rob our
friend who's running thisbusiness, an opportunity to grow
and to fix something in a safeenvironment, before it happens
(15:42):
with a client that might not beas gracious or understanding.
So a lot of it is reallydismantling our beliefs around
conflict and what it is and whatit does, because a lot of women
it's.
You know, I like this person, Idon't want to hurt her feelings
, but we can't get better andgrow and, you know, avoid more
(16:08):
risky situations if we're notopen enough to share with each
other.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Right, yeah, and I love what you said about kind of
reframing it as you're actuallydoing the person a favor in
some ways by addressing theconflict, because I think you
know I know a lot of people arelike me that we feel like, well,
if I say something that's mean,like I'm much better about this
than it used to be.
But I remember I took my nieceout to lunch one day and she was
(16:35):
probably eight or nine at thetime, and her lunch came with a
little bowl of ice cream and sheate like a couple bites of it.
And then she was like I'mreally full.
I'm like, well, you don't haveto eat it all.
And she said, no, I'm going toeat it because I don't want to
hurt his feelings, meaning thewaiter who brought her the ice
cream.
(16:57):
Oh my goodness, Honey, I promisethat waiter does not care if
you eat the ice cream or not,Like he's not emotionally
invested in this ice cream.
But we have this feeling, Ithink, especially among women
and we could get into the wholepatriarchy and where it comes
from but that addressingconflict or expressing that
we're unhappy with something ismean and we're going to hurt
(17:19):
people's feelings and we need tojust be nice and not rock the
boat.
But I love how you reframed itas like giving other people the
opportunity to learn, to grow,to make it right with you.
Otherwise you just walk awayand are like okay, well, I'll
never work with him or recommendanyone work with him ever again
, and that's not fair to thatperson either.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Right and you never gave them a chance to fix it.
And now you have a bad taste inyour mouth.
You won't recommend them andthat can be the thing that
damages your relationship,because there's maybe some
passive-aggressive stuff comingout or maybe some avoidance
coming out.
I have to tell you there's afamily business near us that is
(18:03):
a bakery, and the first cake Iordered from them was just
amazing.
It is now my favorite cake everand so I had high expectations.
I ordered our next cake and itwas for my daughter's birthday
and she wanted this specificheart cake and it looked
phenomenal.
(18:24):
But when I cut into it, itwasn't what we ordered.
On the inside.
They had made a mistake and Iwent back to them and I told
them and they credited me.
I just told them.
They credited me the wholeamount of this very expensive
cake and I was like no, youdon't have to do that, we ate it
(18:46):
.
It just wasn't.
And they were like nope, andthey refused to not give it to
us.
I wrote them the most glowingreview on Google, put up all the
pictures.
I still go there.
I refer them to everyone, right?
So here's this like mistakethat I could have been like well
they were.
They were good the one time,but then they I could have been
(19:11):
like, well, they were good theone time.
But then I brought it up and itgave them a huge opportunity,
because I get alerts all thetime about how many people have
looked at those cake pictures.
If you can reframe it that,this really is an opportunity
and it may be uncomfortable forme, but it's actually a gift to
that person.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah.
Now if you get the courage toaddress it and you try to do
them this favor because you'resuch a nice person, and they
tell you to pound sand, that'sdifferent.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, yeah, that's a big piece of it.
This has been coming up a lotin my meetings with people is
learning how to do what you havecontrol over have the
conversation and let go of allthe stuff you don't.
And that is very hard but it'svery life-changing to do that,
(20:07):
to know.
I came, I brought this to theirattention and gave them an
opportunity to fix it, to makeit right, and they chose not to.
Or I entered this reallyhigh-conflict conversation at
work where this person called meout in front of everyone in a
meeting and it wasn't even mymistake.
(20:28):
They just didn't understand theprocess.
I offered the opportunity tofix it.
They chose not to.
Okay, now I know the characterof that person and I can make
better choices for myself.
You know looking at that, butit's hard because people want to
enter these conversations andknow what's going to happen and
(20:51):
that they are guaranteed theresult they want if they have
the conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, we want to know it's going to go exactly how we
planned it in our minds,otherwise I'm out.
So I think there is an elementof this that I want to touch on
before we wrap up too.
That is about kind of what'sgoing on inside, and I know
there's a lot that goes intoavoiding conflict or being able
(21:19):
to face conflict, but I think abig part of it is courage and
just developing that courage togive yourself a voice to say
what you need to say, andparticularly for women, who are
in male-dominated fields, Iwould imagine that's even more
difficult.
So what advice do you have forentrepreneurs, women in
(21:40):
particular?
To start to develop more ofthat courage.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, it's a muscle like anything else.
So you don't go to the gym andlift a weight one time and be
like, yes, I am strong and Inever have to do that again.
Unfortunately, right,unfortunately, it's something
you develop over time and youcan take it in tidbits, speaking
up in a meeting or having aprivate conversation, starting
(22:08):
with someone who feels reallysafe to you first, you know,
because some women, even inclose relationships, can't speak
up and say those things.
Sometimes it's the closerelationships that are the
hardest too.
So picking some of that lowhanging fruit, it can even be as
simple, as I know women whosomeone will bring, like the
(22:30):
wrong food to the table or thewrong order oh, I said no cheese
and there's cheese on this.
Well, I'll just eat it anyway.
As simple as I'm sorry, thiswasn't my order and sending it
back.
So looking for thoseopportunities for growth and not
expecting yourself to be ableto do it all at once, but to
(22:51):
make these changes, and settingyour mind on continuous
improvement rather than anovernight like whammo.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, and I can see that in myown.
I mean, I totally was thatwoman.
I will just eat it without thecheese, I will.
I don't know what that is, it'snot what I asked for, but I'll
eat it anyway.
I was totally her.
I'm not her anymore now and mythe niece, who is now 18, still
sometimes she'll, she'll be like, isn't that embarrassing?
(23:22):
I'm like it's not embarrassing.
I'm like I paid $6 for thiscoffee.
This is going to taste exactlyhow I imagined it was going to
taste when I forked over my $6.
Like that's, why would I notsay something?
And I'm nice about it, I'malways nice about it, but I'm
going to get the coffee that Iordered and I.
But I do think, looking back onyou know my journey with
(23:46):
conflict or even just speakingup for myself and what could be
perceived as conflict, itdefinitely did get better over
time the more I was able to doit and I think practicing in
situations like that, where youdon't have a lot at stake, right
, like if I tell the person atStarbucks, like this isn't what
(24:06):
I ordered, can you remake it?
And they hate me forever.
I don't care, like I don't evenknow their name.
Well, I do know their namebecause I go to Starbucks a lot,
but you know what I mean asopposed to like starting with a
conversation with my dad aboutsomething highly contentious,
right, like there's a lot moreat stake in that conversation.
(24:27):
And I think starting with thoseKind of easier situations and
showing yourself like, ok, Istood up for myself, I gave
myself a voice, I asked for whatI needed and everything was
fine.
Nobody died.
Everything worked out Makes ita little bit easier.
In the more hard situationsworked out makes it a little bit
(24:49):
easier in the more hardsituations.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, you're like collecting your success arrows
right and as you build that,you're like, okay, there's
another in the quiver and I cando this.
And also, you know, I want tosay sometimes people think,
because I advocate for thesekinds of discussions, this is
not about just trying to haveconflict everywhere you go, but
(25:12):
being willing to have the braveconversation, and that's what it
is.
You said courage.
It is, it's courageous, it'sbrave as women.
There's a lot of culturalmessaging about both genders,
about what it means to be maleor what it means to be female
and what gender means.
(25:34):
We're going through a wholetransition right now.
With that, it's even right orwrong, it's just it's here and
now that we're conscious of itall, it's our time to
reconstruct that and to look atwhat no longer serves us.
(25:56):
A lot of this behavior came outof evolution and it was
survival of the species.
But evolution takes a long timeand we are not the same as we
were when this all began andit's getting to really know
ourselves.
It's that piece of emotionalintelligence of really knowing
(26:17):
ourselves and knowing reallythat we have something to offer
and that our voice is valued andbeing brave is important not
just for us but all thegenerations of women to come
behind us.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, yeah.
All the girls who think theyneed to eat their ice cream so
they don't hurt the waiter'sfeelings yes, they need to see
us be like, yeah, I don't wantthis ice cream, thanks.
And see him be like, okay, no,biggie, yeah, I love that, the
ripple effect of things.
For sure, this has been so good.
I feel like we could keep goingfor another hour, but let's
(26:56):
wrap it up for today.
If people want to connect withyou more, if they want to learn
more about what you do, what isthe best way for them to get in
touch with you?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
All my handles are the same, so it's Dr D-R Donna
Marino, m-a-r-i-n-o.
So, whether that's LinkedIn ormy website or Instagram, and
always feel free to drop me aline I do answer my emails and
LinkedIn messengers and love tohear from people.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Awesome, I will put those links in the show notes,
but super easy when it's thesame everywhere.
I tell people that too.
I'm like it's the name of mybusiness, it's my Instagram,
it's my the name of my podcast.
Like just put powerful womenrising anywhere in the universe,
you will find me somehow.
Perfect, I love it.
Thank you so much, donna.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thank you.
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