March 25, 2025 • 44 mins
Narcissism has become the diagnosis du jour in our culture, with people quick to label selfish exes and difficult bosses as "narcissists." But what does it really mean to date someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder? Sam and Tim dive deep into this complex topic, examining the crucial difference between everyday selfishness and true narcissism.
The conversation reveals surprising statistics – only 5% of people have diagnosable NPD, with 75% of those being men. This gender disparity raises fascinating questions about how our culture subtly rewards certain narcissistic traits in men while punishing them in women. The hosts break down the nine clinical traits of narcissism and provide practical examples of how these manifest in romantic relationships.
Most valuably, Sam offers a brilliant framework for distinguishing healthy confidence from narcissistic arrogance: "Confidence is growth from the previous self, while arrogance is comparison with others who are below them." This insight helps listeners evaluate their own relationships with new clarity. The discussion also explores the roots of narcissism, challenging the assumption that it stems solely from being over-praised in childhood.
For anyone questioning their relationship dynamics, the episode provides specific behavioral red flags to watch for, along with practical advice for both dating situations and marriages where narcissism may be present. The hosts strike a perfect balance between psychological depth and everyday application, making complex personality dynamics accessible without oversimplification.
Whether you're dating, supporting someone in a difficult relationship, or simply curious about the psychology behind our self-obsessed culture, this episode offers invaluable insights that go far beyond the clickbait understanding of narcissism that dominates today's conversation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
Sam and Tim here talking about,well, first of all, just kind
of mentioning the genuineinterest that a lot of you have
shown in the UFO episodes.
Tim did a great job addressingthat topic and I guess we're
kind of surprised how muchinterest it's garnered.
So Tim says he just scratchedthe surface.
(00:24):
So there's probably plenty morewhere we can discuss at a later
time, but we just thank you fortuning in and providing some
support with that.
And today, though, I wanted totalk about a big topic.
Another one of our famousepisodes from earlier in the
season was is everyone really anarcissist?
(00:45):
That's a big trigger word inculture in the counseling field,
so today just wanted to applythat to what does that look like
in a relationship?
And the question is are youdating a narcissist?
Is that really a thing?
What does that look like?
What are some stats on it?
What are some confusions thatwe have about the topic in
(01:07):
general?
Because there seems to be somemiscommunication but
misconstruing some of the termsthat we see for a certain type
of person and also someone whoactually does have NPD.
So we'll dig into that today.
But yeah, tim, big topic here.
Just in general, when we talkabout narcissism, I guess what
(01:30):
comes to mind when you hear thisword thrown out in culture or
in conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, I think the term is catching on a lot.
In fact, it's probably gettingoverused, like everything else,
like trauma and other wordswords like that.
So it's unfortunate, becausenarcissism, you know, is a
legitimate problem in some areasof society, um, but uh, I think
people are starting to overusethe term and confuse just plain
(01:57):
selfishness with narcissism um,although I do think that social
media does encouragenarcissistic behavior in people
who don't have NPD.
Narcissistic personalitydisorder just normal people.
I think that social media doesencourage a kind of
(02:20):
self-absorbed or self-obsessedbehavior self-absorbed or
self-obsessed behavior and somaybe that's where people are
getting.
It is why people keep throwingout the term oh, narcissist,
that person's a narcissist, he'sa narcissist.
It's like well, people could bebehaving in a certain way that
mimics narcissism, but theycould just be.
You know, just good old, plainselfishness at times.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, there's this therapist who you know.
Another reason plainselfishness, yeah times.
Yeah, yeah, there's thistherapist who you know.
Another reason why thisconversation came up there was a
therapist who was talking abouthow there's even narcissism in
the people who date narcissists.
Right, there's like this ideaof bringing attention to myself
because I survived a narcissistrelationship, and it was an
interesting take.
I was like that's prettyinteresting in that when people
(03:07):
share about this, they're tryingto draw attention to themselves
, whether it be because of pityor just maybe as a source of
understanding, like, oh, becauseI dated a narcissist, I'll be
able to teach you what to lookfor and what to identify, and so
on.
So I just thought it was aninteresting take.
But again, it brings up thisquestion of how do you know if
(03:28):
you're actually dating anarcissist and what does that
actually look like?
So I guess, to start off justdefining the term itself, we're
looking at nine traits, ninefactors here that are identified
for narcissists, that areidentified for narcissists.
So a person who displays thesecharacteristics is most likely
(03:49):
or can be categorized in thenarcissistic personality
disorder.
So the first one lacks empathy,right, the inability to
recognize or identify feelingsand needs of others.
Okay, so thinking about aperson who lacks empathy.
Why are people drawn to that?
Again, I'm going to get intothat a little bit later, but
(04:11):
there's this idea of a personwho lacks empathy, cannot
identify or affirm feelings thatanother person has or their
needs, right On top of that.
Next one is the grandiose senseof self.
So there's this idea thatthey're the best things in
sliced bread or something likethat.
Right so this idea of justgrandiosity, I'm the best that
there is, and so on.
(04:32):
This third one was interestingtoo.
It's the sense of entitlement.
Like, I deserve special type oftreatment and you need to meet
my expectations.
I need to be treateddifferently than everyone else
because I have this set ofskills or this set of abilities
and so on.
Right, so there's a sense ofentitlement that comes with.
That Requires excessiveadmiration.
(04:55):
So there's all these bids andfishing for compliments.
So they often surroundthemselves with people who kind
of provide that excessiveadmiration.
Right Again, that can be theguy, it can be a girl.
Again, we're talking aboutwithin a dating context,
relationship context.
So excessive admiration.
(05:24):
Number five believes that he orshe is special and unique and
can only be understood by, orshould associate with other
special or high status people,right?
So, again, looking at thecircle that this person
surrounds themselves with, usethat as a way to gauge.
Okay, are they also displayingthe same type of characteristics
and traits and are they alsopraising this person for the
traits that they have?
So you'll see those same peoplekind of hang around in the same
circles, but that personthemselves, even within that
(05:47):
group, still believes that theyare more special than everyone
else.
Number six they're preoccupiedwith fantasies of unlimited
success, power, brilliance,beauty and even ideal love.
So these are conversations thatthey're having.
This is what I want, this iswhat I want it to look like.
I can achieve this againsuccess, power, brilliance, and
(06:09):
so on.
Number seven they takeadvantage of others, so they're
exploitative in order to achievetheir own ends.
And again, most of these thingsyou don't see right away.
Some of them are more obviousthan others.
Some of them you only start tosee as you start to know and
engage them on a more personallevel.
Okay, because most people kindof keep a surface level
(06:32):
relationship with acquaintancesand just people that they know
or meet.
Number eight envious of others,or believe that others are
envious of him or her.
So, again, they're alwaysdesiring what someone else has
and think that other people havethe same feeling towards them
and, lastly, shows arrogant,haughty behaviors or attitudes.
(06:55):
So, again, these aren't thingsthat are.
These are things that areeasily noticeable in your
interactions with them.
So you wanna take the way thatI would recommend.
Looking at this is look attheir personal relationships,
people that are close to themfriends, family relationships
and so on and then also look atit from a broader perspective.
(07:15):
What do other people outside ofthat circle say about that
person and what do they knowabout that person?
And I think you can find someoverlap with a number of these
things.
But, again, most of these arepretty obvious.
You meet this person and youget at least four to five of
these characteristics andthat'll probably give you a good
idea that they may have NPD.
(07:35):
Again, we're not diagnosingpeople, but these are some of
those identifying factors.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So let me ask you this then as you went through
that list, I was thinking youknow, almost all of us have
exhibited some aspect of thosetraits at some point in our
lives, like whether that'sgrandiose fantasies or acting
haughty in some ways, maybe notexploiting other people
consciously, but certainlyacting in ways that are very
(08:05):
selfish.
Um, what are some others thatyou read at the beginning?
Um, uh.
Grand use of self entitlement,excessive admiration yeah, you
know we've all kind of actedentitled at times or uh or
wanted admiration, dreamed ofhaving admiration.
You know there's a, there's asaying like everyone wants to be
(08:25):
king, you know, for a day.
So yeah, so like, even everyperson can have something like
what you've read and some aspectof that.
So how do you, how do wedistinguish like for for our
listeners out there who's maybelistening to you and checking
off boxes and they're like oh no, I have NPD.
(08:46):
How do you distinguish betweena true narcissist and someone
who just occasionally exhibitsthese traits?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
I think one of them you kind ofalluded to right now is, if
you're worried about some ofthese characteristics, you're
like, oh man, do I have NPD?
That's probably a.
Now is, if you're worried aboutsome of these characteristics,
you're like, oh man, man, do Ihave NPD?
That's probably a good signbecause you're worried about
coming off as a narcissist, andtrue narcissists don't really
care.
He'll be like, oh yeah, that'sthat's me, that's me to a T and,
you know, continue on withtheir day.
(09:19):
But the other part of it is yourinteractions with these people.
In general, these are morecommon than not.
So, for example, I, you know, Ihad friends who you know they
do something great and then theykind of may get a little puffed
up and have this grandiosesense of self, or maybe they
they are under stress and theystart becoming unempathetic
(09:41):
towards other people.
So they treat people a littlebit crappy for a while because
you know they just want to getsomething done and whatever the
case is.
So there could be lack ofempathy there, but that's not
who they are in general, likemost of your interactions with
this person are positive thanthey are in displaying any of
these traits.
So the commonality again is dothey treat people within their
(10:03):
circle this way and what does itlook like with the general
public?
I guess with people outside ofthat circle is another good way
to kind of assess that.
So I think those would be twogood places to start.
What is your overallinteractions with them?
How do they behave?
If you've noticed a pattern ofbehavior of these, again, it
(10:25):
could be four or five of these.
They don't have to display allof them and some of these can't
even be displayed until you'rein a closer relationship with
them.
But lacking empathy,grandiosense of self, excessive
admiration, these are thingsthat at the surface level you
could kind of see.
So in general, in yourinteractions with them, do you
see these traits more often thannot, and that could tell you a
(10:48):
lot.
Again, personality disordersare common behaviors, common
patterns of relating to otherpeople over an extended period
of time.
So you'll see within a coupleof months, definitely within a
year, whether or not thesethings are identifiable.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
All right, so then let's jump to dating unless you
wanted to sit something farther,okay oh yeah, let's go some
stats yeah, there's some.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
There's some stats here from the cleveland clinic
and I think I mentioned this inthe last episode that we did.
But the reason why this topicof of um npd is is important is
because I started to ask myself,well, how common is this
problem?
Like, what population, whatpercentage of the population
(11:36):
actually has this as adiagnosable disorder?
So Cleveland Clinic kind of didsome research with this and
looked at 5% of people sufferfrom NPD, right?
So this is US data.
So this is US data and it saysaround 75% of people who are
diagnosed with this are men.
(11:56):
So 75% men, 25% women.
So what's with this discrepancyand this is one of the
questions as I was preparing forthis is what is that?
Why is that discrepancy so high?
And what you realize is that alot of these characteristics or
traits in some ways help menmove through society, but at the
(12:22):
extreme level of hurting peoplein the process, hurting
relationships, men tend to bemore independent, focused and
wanting to achieve success, sothey're willing to do whatever
it takes to get to that point,right, so much at the expense of
relationships and NPD affectsrelationships.
(12:43):
So one way could be because ofthat, why that discrepancy is so
high 75% of men and it'srewarded in a lot of ways, right
, because a lot of these thingsthe grandiose sense of self, the
person who has it, who has NPDthey will describe that as super
confident.
Right, I'm confident in myself,confident in my ability.
(13:05):
So how do you discern and we'llget to this later how do you
discern between confidence andhaving a grandiose sense of self
?
Or how do you separateconfidence from having this deep
um, uh, what's the word that inadmiration even for your own,
um, qualities andcharacteristics that you have?
(13:25):
So, or even your success, what,what, what plays into that?
And a lot of these things maybe helpful, but one of the
things that I found out evenmore so was these are a lot of
defense mechanisms so that theydon't get hurt along their
journey to success and to becomethe man that they want to be.
(13:45):
So what you find is that thesemen have also been hurt in early
childhood relationships andeven in some of their adult
relationships.
So the only way to deal withthat in some of their adult
relationships so the only way todeal with that a lot of it is
insecurity.
So that's why they have to bethe ones who are their own
cheerleaders and they have to doit in such a way right.
This is where the grandiosesense of self comes into play.
(14:06):
They have to present themselvesin their minds that they are
the most confident, most capable, most skilled person that they
know.
And then they're trying toconvince other people around
them to also believe that.
And again deals with a hugesense of insecurity.
But it's one way in which theyfind motivation to continue to
(14:26):
be successful.
And you'll see this a lot withpeople who are in business, and
if they are very high up on thepay scale, they're making
millions of dollars.
This is the way that they workthrough.
They have to not care about howthey're affecting other people,
because they're only out fortheir own good.
So there's some utility to it.
(14:48):
But what does that actuallylook like in relationships?
And we'll see that here in alittle bit.
Actually look like inrelationships, and we'll see
that here in a little bit.
So a study done by the Journalof Clinical Psychiatry they
published this in the NationalLibrary of Medicine shows these
three traits in men and twoother traits in women.
So three lack of empathy, senseof entitlement and exploitation
(15:16):
.
Those were threecharacteristics that mostly
showed, or that men scoredhigher when it comes to
displaying these characteristicsFor women.
Interestingly enough, one ofthem was envy and arrogance, and
again, the percentage betweenthese is about plus minus five.
Between these is about plusminus five.
(15:37):
So, for example, for women theyscored 78.4, while men scored
72.
On envy and arrogance, womenscored 42, and men scored 35%.
So interesting how these wouldplay a role in their
relationships.
But really, what you find withboth of these it's a way to
protect the self from being hurt, and so on.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Okay.
So if narcissism ornarcissistic traits are a way of
protecting the self, then whatis the root of narcissism?
Is it nature, is it biology, oris it nurture?
Is it some sort ofenvironmental factor that drives
someone to develop NPD?
And if it's the latter, thenwhat does that say about my
(16:23):
earlier comment about socialmedia driving people toward
narcissistic behavior?
Are people actually developingNPD?
On a mass scale.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, I think it's both, and because one of it is
you're going to have somepersonality traits that are
going to be more prone toshowing some of these behaviors
right To showing a moregrandiose sense of self.
But the grandiose sense of selfcould also be the constant
adoration of the parents and theconstant adoration of other
(16:54):
peers and the adoration ofteachers, right.
So a child starts to believeall of these things.
They've been told this alltheir lives.
Then they grew up, turn 18, 19,20, go out into the real world
and have that belief systemright.
So anything that goes againstthat is a shock to them.
That's why one of the othercharacteristics for those who
(17:17):
struggle with NPD or have NPD isthey don't take criticism well,
and again, a big part of thatcould be because the nurture
part of their upbringing wasalways positive.
This is why we need thatbalance of okay, I'm encouraging
you.
But also this needs to becorrected.
(17:37):
And often those who have thisinflated sense of self, they
haven't been corrected by theirpeers, by their parents, by
their teachers.
Because they have such a greatskill at something right, they
do something so well and that'sthe thing that they're praised
for.
So it would make sense in a lotof ways why they become the way
they become when that's thething that's been highlighted in
(17:59):
their life, right?
So someone who's very skilledat working with people or who
has a I don't know able to usetechnology well is good at
business, whatever the case is,if that's something that's been
highlighted in their lives byall these important people in
their lives, then it would makesense why they would have such a
high belief in that aboutthemselves, right?
(18:20):
So any critique, any criticism,anything that shoots down that
image that they've created orthat others have created for
them, that hurts.
That hurts the self-esteem,that hurts the ego, and the way
to protect against that is nope.
I got to believe what I've beentold my whole life and that's
the only way to survive and pushforward.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So that form of narcissism comes from?
Like an over-receiving or, Iguess, receiving too much praise
when you're younger, not enoughcriticism?
What about those who maybe theylack a parental figure in their
life, maybe there's a fatherwho abandoned them or something
(19:04):
like that?
Do some people develop NPD?
Because it's like acompensation for what they
lacked when they were younger.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, that's a great point, Tim.
You do see that a lot right,they have to.
It becomes a survival instinct.
It's not going to help yousurvive if you're putting
yourself down, if the onlypeople in your life have not
communicated the things thatyou're or have communicated to
you, the things that you're notgood at, right.
(19:32):
So if they say, well, you neverdo this right, you never do
that right, at some pointthere's something that triggers
in the person where it's like Ican't live like this.
So they go to the other extremeand everything is emphasized in
the positive, to the pointwhere it starts to change how
they think about themselves, howthey think about people, right.
So again, as they develop thisnew belief in themselves, in
(19:56):
their confidence in their skills, in their abilities, then they
start to believe that so muchthat now anything that anyone
else says about them doesn'tmatter, right.
So now they're just protectinghow they feel, because they felt
crappy for such a long timebecause of what was said about
them.
Now they just enjoy the feelingof confidence and belief in
their skills that no one's goingto move them from that.
(20:17):
Right, it's very hard to movesomeone from something that's
protected them and that's workedout for them and I think that's
the thing that's, from acultural perspective, is also
influencing people is that we'reseeing narcissistic behaviors
be rewarded.
For example, one of the episodesthat we did before was with
(20:40):
prosperity teachers or popularpastors and so on, this
charismatic type movement, right, the reason why other pastors
or other churches are doing thatis because they're seeing that
it produces results, it bringspeople into the church and it
brings a sense of status to thechurch.
So if something's working andit's being rewarded, it makes it
(21:03):
easier for us to kind ofimitate those behaviors.
And I think when we're seeingthese narcissistic behaviors in
other people and it's beingrewarded with success or
promotion or money orrelationships like, people start
imitating that because theythink that's what brings the
reward.
So for these people who grew upand weren't necessarily hyped
(21:28):
up and highlighted their skillsand their abilities, they have
to create a new sense of selfand if that's working for them
and if that's creating the lifethat they want, why would I give
that up?
Right, it wouldn't make senseuntil they hit these barriers in
relationships, right?
Which brings us to the questionso why are people entering
(21:52):
relationships with narcissists?
What is it about the narcissistthat draws people in, right, and
I think one of thecharacteristics that we can look
at is this charismatic way inrelating to people, right?
Earlier, one of thecharacteristics that we read was
(22:14):
taking advantage of others toachieve his or her own needs.
So a charismatic person can bevery exploitative of others in
praising them and giving themwhat they want, giving them what
they feel that they deserve, inorder to eventually get
(22:34):
something out of them right, outof the feel that they deserve,
in order to eventually getsomething out of them right Out
of the people that they're underthem or the relationship that
they're looking for.
Right?
So if it's sex, they're goingto give the girl whatever they
want until they eventually getthat reward in a sense.
Right, so they're using peoplefor their own benefit.
But it feels good when someoneis praising you and they're
(22:57):
really giving you all thisattention.
That feels good.
So I wonder if that's one piecethat draws people to these
narcissistic type of people, andI mentioned earlier in the
episode another piece could bethis idea of surviving these
difficult people right.
(23:18):
Again, there was anothertherapist and she made this
comment about there's narcissismin dating narcissists.
Right, the person who dates thenarcissist goes back with a
story and talks about how muchof a badge of honor it is to
(23:39):
date a narcissist and survivethem right, survive the whole
dating relationship, like theywere treating me like this, like
that.
And the question she says iswell, what made you stay in that
relationship for so long or whyweren't you able to identify
those things beforehand?
And a big part of this weconfuse confidence with
(23:59):
arrogance.
Arrogance is one of thecharacteristics of a narcissist,
right?
So when someone doesn'tunderstand the difference
between those two, it could bethis person's so confident and
really it's arrogance.
And how do we discern betweenthose two?
And I think one of the thingsthat I was able to identify was
confidence is a growth from theprevious self, so meaning that
(24:25):
the person is measuringthemselves with how they were
three, four, five months ago.
Arrogance is this comparisonwith others who are below them.
So I'm much better than andthey're making this comparison
with other people.
Confidence is kind of like oh,I've grown in this area, so it's
a comparison to the former self.
So I think that's one way tolook at that as well.
(24:45):
And again, these aren't thingsthat you see when you first meet
people.
It's as you start to get toknow people, you start to notice
little differences.
But again, you asked thequestion earlier how do you know
if it's NPD or if it's justthey're displaying this trait?
That seems to line up with oneof these characteristics.
And the key factor to look atis, in general, in your overall
(25:10):
interactions with this personhow have they behaved, and if,
every once in a while, you seethem become a little bit selfish
or talking in a grandiose wayor lacking empathy, whatever the
case is, you can tell thatthat's not usually how they are,
so something else is going onthat could be causing that type
of behavior.
For the narcissist, this istheir general way of operating
(25:33):
in the world.
Again, part of it defensemechanism.
Another part of it is, um,that's just the personality that
they've had to develop in orderto move in life and and move
forward and succeed.
So I think that's one of them.
Um, what was the other questionI had here?
Are people becoming narcissistsbecause that is what is being
(25:56):
rewarded by culture?
So what does that mean?
Are people becoming narcissistsbecause that is what's being
rewarded by culture, if you'reconfident or if you're arrogant
and you treat people in acertain way and that's helping
you move ahead in your career,then why not?
(26:19):
That's kind of like thementality is why wouldn't I do
something that helps me moveforward in my career, but you're
doing that at the expense ofyour relationships.
You're doing that at theexpense of hurting someone else
that you may or may not care for, that at the expense of hurting
someone else that you may ormay not care for.
So even us as a culture, Ithink we tend to praise those
(26:41):
who have a sense of charisma andconfidence that we feel like we
lack.
So there's this other piece,another factor that I wanted to
look at the successful person.
Okay, so success is good, butone of the potential traits that
(27:01):
it shows of narcissism is agrandiose sense of self, or this
preoccupation with fantasies ofunlimited power, brilliance and
beauty.
So someone who's successful mayhave these other factors as
part of it, but not necessarily.
Again, someone who's successfulisn't automatically
(27:23):
narcissistic.
So you got to look are theysuccessful and are they
displaying this grandiose senseof self and are they preoccupied
with power, brilliance andmoney?
And lastly, I think there'sthis other piece of independence
People who are highlyindependent.
We see that as a good thing.
Okay, they don't depend onanyone else.
They're kind of paving theirown way.
(27:43):
They're doing what they need todo, but if in that process,
they don't have empathy forothers or show arrogance in the
process, okay, then that maygive us another some signs of
narcissistic personalitydisorder, okay.
Now, all of this that we'vebeen talking about is to lead up
(28:04):
to the question are you datinga narcissist?
And the idea behind that is isit possible that we're confusing
these positive traits right,confidence, successful,
independence with narcissisticpersonality disorders, and can
people differentiate betweenthose two?
(28:25):
Now, I guess a question for you, tim as I've shared or laid out
those two things has it becomemore clear in here's what's
narcissistic and here's what'sconfidence, success,
independence and so on?
(28:46):
Is there a clear line or do youthink there's still some some
overlap?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Well, I think.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I think, some overlap .
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Well, I think there's still some overlap, because I'm
thinking of a few individualsthat I'm convinced are
narcissists, that I know, andthere's just a way that they act
that gives it away, um, and soI think what would help is, when
(29:13):
we get into this question justso we're not accused of
clickbait, let's get into thequestion about is someone dating
a narcissist?
How do you know?
Or how they maybe talk aboutother people Like I guess what
are some really quick, easythings to recognize that are
like yep, that's a narcissist.
(29:42):
I do think you're right, though, that people can look at
confidence and think, oh, thatperson's arrogant.
Or they can look at success andthink, well, they only got
there by abusing other people.
So, yeah, I think you're rightthere, that people, as I said at
the beginning of the episode,people just throw out the term
narcissism nowadays as a blanketthing for anything and
(30:07):
everything, and that's notreally that helpful.
Certainly there's people whoare arrogant and use other
people to their ends.
It doesn't make them anarcissist.
It could make them a jerk.
Yeah exactly A jerk isn'tnecessarily a narcissist, so
yeah, so I guess with people indating relationships, if they're
(30:30):
really kind of concerned aboutlike am I involved with the
narcissist, or perhaps even in amarriage relationship, what are
some signs, I guess, that theother person is narcissistic or
maybe has NPD.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, that's good, that's good.
So if we go through thesedifferent characteristics, I
think I'll start to flesh out alittle bit more.
So, for example, lackingempathy is probably the clearest
one.
When two people are in arelationship, there's a sense of
care and wanting to understandanother person's feelings and
wanting to see how they can meettheir needs.
(31:06):
Right, we see ourselves ascomplementary, like I want to be
able to meet your needs and youwould meet my needs.
So it's mutual.
It's a mutual commitment towanting to meet the other
person's needs and to understandtheir feelings.
If you're dating a narcissist,there's this idea of I don't
care what you need, here's whatI need.
I don't care how you feel,here's how I feel.
(31:26):
And again, in relationshipsit's not that it happens once,
twice, three times, it's thatthis is the common theme in the
relationship, right?
The common theme is that thisis the common theme in the
relationship, right?
The common theme is that thisperson only cares about what
they need.
They only care about what theywant and how they feel, but when
I share what I'm needing orfeeling, they don't care, right?
(31:48):
So that's probably a verycommon one to address.
Again, think about it in lengthof time.
Is this the most commonbehavior every time throughout
your relationship?
Is this the theme of therelationship?
I think that can help out alittle bit In a behavioral
standpoint.
One of the and this a lot ofpeople who have dated
narcissists.
They describe this behavior.
(32:10):
When walking in public, theperson, the narcissist, walks a
few steps ahead as a way ofcreating the sense of I'm the
important one, you're thesupport and you don't deserve to
kind of be in the spotlight.
So they'll see.
And you may see that if youwant to go and just kind of go
to the mall and people watch,right, you can kind of see these
things kind of play out.
(32:30):
Again, it's not as common as wethink, but if you see it, you
know it and if you see it, youknow it and if you feel it, it's
this idea of this person's theone who needs to have the
spotlight.
The other person is just kindof the support system, right,
the one who's following and soon.
So in that sense again, thatgrandiose sense of self, or even
the need for excessiveadmiration, you'll see that a
(32:58):
lot when there's a couple andyou have one who's praising the
other person for how great theyare as a as a boyfriend, as a
husband, or as a wife, as agirlfriend, and the other person
doesn't say anything in return.
I don't know if you've everbeen around relationships like
that, where there's one who youknow I won the lottery with this
person like they're the bestand so on, and you see no
response from the other partner,like it's just quiet.
Yeah, that's true.
So kind of excessive admiration,but also the idea that they're
(33:23):
special, right, like they're thespecial one in the relationship
.
And if people can kind of seethat there's a clear distinction
when they're around otherpeople, as who is supposed to be
the star and who is just kindof the support, right, so they
want to make it very clear tothemselves and to other people
that they're the important onein the relationship, and it's
(33:45):
very noticeable.
So it's not subtle, it's verynoticeable.
So that's another way in whichyou can tell that as well.
Sense of entitlement that's abig one, right.
They deserve treatment, notjust from the person that
they're dating but also fromother people around them.
And if they as a couple receivespecial treatment from others,
(34:05):
it's because of that, thenarcissist, that they're
receiving that service and thatadmiration, and they'll make it
a point to make sure that theother person in the relationship
knows why they're receivingthat praise, like, oh, this is
because of me, because of allthat I've done, or because of
how I served them, or because ofwhat I did here, right, they
make it very clear to thatperson what their role in the
(34:28):
relationship is.
So it's very much like this andwe're not talking about
biblical roles.
I mean, it is a distinctseparation of I'm here, you're
here and that's.
That's just the way that it isand it'll always be like that so
those?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
so those list people in our show, fans who are just
listening and not watching thevideo.
Can you explain what you didwith your hands?
Oh, like having one one handway up high, one way down low so
the narcissist is like I'm wayup high and my partner's way
down low.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Way down low and it's not like this, right, so I'm
barely kind of creating thespace between my hands, but it's
noticeable, so it's, you know,and he makes sure that other
people know that he is the starand she is not, or vice versa
(35:30):
bad news, what?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
what advice do you have for someone who might be?
Let's start with a datingrelationship.
What advice do you have?
Because maybe that's easierwith dating, um, and how to
handle that.
But what about marriage?
Like somebody might be marriedto a narcissistic person, what,
so let's start with a dating one.
What advice do you have forthem?
And then, what advice do youhave for someone who's like I
think I married a narcissist?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, when you mentioned that, the one with the
dating I'm reminded of.
I think it was BenjaminFranklin.
He said keep your eyes wideopen before marriage and half
shut afterwards.
So this idea of pay attentionto everything before you get
married and then afterwardslearn to let go of a couple of
(36:11):
things that are going to get onyour nerves right.
And I think in dating it's weget excited when we see that
person who's very confident,very accomplished, very well put
together, and we just want tostart the relationship.
So there's no filtering ourprocess, it's just like they're
great, they're attractive, theyseem well put together, they're
(36:33):
independent, all these differentthings again, for both men and
women and we just want to getinto the relationship.
And you get into therelationship and you haven't
filtered out all these otherthings that you're seeing and
you figure out, maybe three, six, nine months down the road,
that all of these traits arestarting to become evident to
you and it makes it harder toget out of a situation like that
(36:56):
Because now especially, there'sbeen physical intimacy, now
you're attached to this personand I think that's what makes it
hard for people to leaverelationships like this.
And I'm trying to think back tohim at some of our episodes.
I don't think we talked aboutthe impact of premarital sex,
but one of the things I haveseen a lot in people that I
counsel it's they may datesomeone for a month and if there
(37:20):
was no physical intimacy theyhurt a little bit but they're
able to move on.
But those who have had sexbefore or during that time they
have such a much harder timeletting go of that person again
because it's created a bond.
And I think that's what happensin this relationship is that
all these things are good.
They seem very, very great atthe beginning.
(37:41):
If they're confident, they makeyou feel good, so it makes it
easy to jump into a relationship.
But if you see thesecharacteristics like again, look
at their close relationships,look at it from a broader
perspective of what other peopleare saying or thinking about
that person, and then see, checkin on your experiences with
that person.
Okay, what am I seeing?
(38:02):
And just paying attention toall of these different things.
How do they talk about money?
How do they talk about success?
How do they talk about otherpeople?
Right, and then you'll start tosee, right, this preoccupation,
maybe with oh you know, I wantto be the best the CEO of said
company and I want to makemillions and I want to do this.
(38:23):
I want to do that.
Okay, just take note.
Okay, good, how do they talkabout other people?
Are they talking about otherpeople in a way where they're
putting them down in order tomake themselves look better in
your eyes?
That could be another factor,right, are they only talking
about themselves?
(38:43):
Do you ever see them praiseother people and lift other
people up in front of you andeven behind their backs?
Right, where they say goodthings about other people, right
?
So all of these are just thingsthat you start to figure out as
you get to know the person moreand more.
So you just got to observe,take note, observe, take note
and again, with time, you startto see the patterns.
A couple of months, I think,two, three months you can start
(39:06):
seeing the patterns Again.
That's depending how much yousee them, how often you hang
around them, around theirfriends and so on.
You start to see thesebehaviors a lot more Again,
spend a lot of time with thatperson and just take note.
So for those who are dating,it's before you start dating
this person.
All of these things are verypositive.
These characteristics may seempositive on the surface.
(39:28):
But again, take your time, slowit down, take note and you'll
start to see these actualcharacteristics.
If they are narcissistic, youwill see these things come up
within a couple months.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Okay, so let's jump to the marriage question.
All of those traits now in amarriage relationship.
What advice do you have forsomeone who feels like maybe I
married a narcissist?
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that one.
It's a.
It's a lot harder, it's muchmore complicated, because what
do you do?
Really?
The line is, do they becomeabusive?
Right, that's, that's reallythe key thing, because, you know
, some people are people who arenarcissists.
They're just annoying, right.
That's really the key thing, atleast for me, because some
people are people who arenarcissists.
They're just annoying, right.
They're annoying to be aroundand it's kind of like I just
(40:15):
can't stand being around you,like you're saying all these
things about other people.
So they're probably receivingthat in some way, shape or form
in the marriage context, so,okay, so it's kind of like just
those things that are annoying.
But another characteristic of anarcissist is that they will
become verbally, emotionally,even physically abusive, right.
So at that point, that's reallythe line.
(40:36):
I think, where I drive was like,okay, um, you're not safe here.
Like what needs to happen here?
You know, do you guys need togo to counseling?
And again, go to counselingtogether and discuss this.
But again, withists, they'reable to manipulate the counselor
unless the counselor isexperienced in working with
narcissists.
And I think that's starting tobecome a niche in the counseling
(40:58):
field where people want tolearn more about narcissism.
So they can deal withnarcissists within the
counseling setting.
So they can deal withnarcissists within the
counseling setting Because,again, if they're very
charismatic and if they areexploitative of other people am
I saying that right?
Exploitative Sounds right.
If they're doing that withother people, then it's likely
(41:20):
that they're going to do thatwith the counselor.
But the counselor, who iswell-informed on how narcissists
behave, they'll be able tocatch that and redirect the
conversation within counseling,right.
But again, any personalitydisorder you're not just NPD,
but most personalities are justdifficult because it becomes a
part of who they are.
That's just how they learn tooperate and again, to break down
(41:44):
these self-defense mechanismsfor them.
I mean, that's a lot of work.
It needs to be done at theindividual level and also at the
relational level, and it's hard.
And how long would thatnarcissist stay within the
counseling setting?
I don't know, right.
So my line is has he becomeabusive?
(42:05):
Right, and typically it's goingto hinge a little bit on
emotional and verbal abuse.
So if they're degrading you,they're putting you down, they
do it in front of other people,right?
And this is where we start topay attention.
So if you're in groups andtypically narcissists will avoid
big groups.
But if you're in group settings, pay attention to that.
(42:26):
All these little signs that I'vebeen mentioning of how they
treat their partner, how theytreat other people.
Just have it as a little flag.
Oh, that's interesting.
Check in with the person.
And again, one thing to takenote of as well is this also
happens to the men.
So typically I'm speaking aboutit from how men treat their
(42:49):
girlfriends or their wives.
But also there's the other one.
It's a little more subtlebecause it's not as common with
women to mistreat their husbands.
So just something to be mindfulof how do they treat them?
How do they talk about them?
Those are just some of theindicators that you can pay
attention as a friend, as thebody of Christ, to ask and be
(43:10):
willing to go there if you seethese red flags, so seek out
church leadership, seek outcounseling.
And again, the final line for meis, once they become
emotionally, verbally abusiveand physically abusive, that's a
really bad sign.
Yeah, I would say, talk to yourpastor, see what the guidance
(43:33):
is after that and a counselor.
Actually, I would say this ifit's become physically abusive,
I already know it's beenemotionally and verbally abusive
, right, because that's the lastbarrier that people reach.
The emotional verbal abuse is alittle bit difficult to define
or to describe.
But if someone has already gotto the physically abusive piece,
I know that the other two havehappened already.
(43:54):
So it's just kind of like thebuild up.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
That's good advice.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah, all right?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, yeah, hopefully this was helpful, guys, and
hopefully you're not dating anurse.
And yeah, yeah, hopefully thiswas helpful, guys, and hopefully
you're not dating a nurse andhopefully, as you are seeing
these things, that you can catchthese things beforehand if
you're thinking about dating umand if you are in a relationship
like that, you know, seek help,ask questions and um, you know,
we'll see how we can help withthat.
But uh, yeah, thank you fortuning in and we'll see you next
(44:23):
time.
All right, everyone welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
Sam and Tim here talking about,well, first of all, just kind
of mentioning the genuineinterest that a lot of you have
shown in the UFO episodes.
Tim did a great job addressingthat topic and I guess we're
kind of surprised how muchinterest it's garnered.
So Tim says he just scratchedthe surface.
(00:24):
So there's probably plenty morewhere we can discuss at a later
time, but we just thank you fortuning in and providing some
support with that.
And today, though, I wanted totalk about a big topic.
Another one of our famousepisodes from earlier in the
season was is everyone really anarcissist?
(00:45):
That's a big trigger word inculture in the counseling field,
so today just wanted to applythat to what does that look like
in a relationship?
And the question is are youdating a narcissist?
Is that really a thing?
What does that look like?
What are some stats on it?
What are some confusions thatwe have about the topic in
(01:07):
general?
Because there seems to be somemiscommunication but
misconstruing some of the termsthat we see for a certain type
of person and also someone whoactually does have NPD.
So we'll dig into that today.
But yeah, tim, big topic here.
Just in general, when we talkabout narcissism, I guess what
(01:30):
comes to mind when you hear thisword thrown out in culture or
in conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, I think the term is catching on a lot.
In fact, it's probably gettingoverused, like everything else,
like trauma and other wordswords like that.
So it's unfortunate, becausenarcissism, you know, is a
legitimate problem in some areasof society, um, but uh, I think
people are starting to overusethe term and confuse just plain
(01:57):
selfishness with narcissism um,although I do think that social
media does encouragenarcissistic behavior in people
who don't have NPD.
Narcissistic personalitydisorder just normal people.
I think that social media doesencourage a kind of
(02:20):
self-absorbed or self-obsessedbehavior self-absorbed or
self-obsessed behavior and somaybe that's where people are
getting.
It is why people keep throwingout the term oh, narcissist,
that person's a narcissist, he'sa narcissist.
It's like well, people could bebehaving in a certain way that
mimics narcissism, but theycould just be.
You know, just good old, plainselfishness at times.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, there's this therapist who you know.
Another reason plainselfishness, yeah times.
Yeah, yeah, there's thistherapist who you know.
Another reason why thisconversation came up there was a
therapist who was talking abouthow there's even narcissism in
the people who date narcissists.
Right, there's like this ideaof bringing attention to myself
because I survived a narcissistrelationship, and it was an
interesting take.
I was like that's prettyinteresting in that when people
(03:07):
share about this, they're tryingto draw attention to themselves
, whether it be because of pityor just maybe as a source of
understanding, like, oh, becauseI dated a narcissist, I'll be
able to teach you what to lookfor and what to identify, and so
on.
So I just thought it was aninteresting take.
But again, it brings up thisquestion of how do you know if
(03:28):
you're actually dating anarcissist and what does that
actually look like?
So I guess, to start off justdefining the term itself, we're
looking at nine traits, ninefactors here that are identified
for narcissists, that areidentified for narcissists.
So a person who displays thesecharacteristics is most likely
(03:49):
or can be categorized in thenarcissistic personality
disorder.
So the first one lacks empathy,right, the inability to
recognize or identify feelingsand needs of others.
Okay, so thinking about aperson who lacks empathy.
Why are people drawn to that?
Again, I'm going to get intothat a little bit later, but
(04:11):
there's this idea of a personwho lacks empathy, cannot
identify or affirm feelings thatanother person has or their
needs, right On top of that.
Next one is the grandiose senseof self.
So there's this idea thatthey're the best things in
sliced bread or something likethat.
Right so this idea of justgrandiosity, I'm the best that
there is, and so on.
(04:32):
This third one was interestingtoo.
It's the sense of entitlement.
Like, I deserve special type oftreatment and you need to meet
my expectations.
I need to be treateddifferently than everyone else
because I have this set ofskills or this set of abilities
and so on.
Right, so there's a sense ofentitlement that comes with.
That Requires excessiveadmiration.
(04:55):
So there's all these bids andfishing for compliments.
So they often surroundthemselves with people who kind
of provide that excessiveadmiration.
Right Again, that can be theguy, it can be a girl.
Again, we're talking aboutwithin a dating context,
relationship context.
So excessive admiration.
(05:24):
Number five believes that he orshe is special and unique and
can only be understood by, orshould associate with other
special or high status people,right?
So, again, looking at thecircle that this person
surrounds themselves with, usethat as a way to gauge.
Okay, are they also displayingthe same type of characteristics
and traits and are they alsopraising this person for the
traits that they have?
So you'll see those same peoplekind of hang around in the same
circles, but that personthemselves, even within that
(05:47):
group, still believes that theyare more special than everyone
else.
Number six they're preoccupiedwith fantasies of unlimited
success, power, brilliance,beauty and even ideal love.
So these are conversations thatthey're having.
This is what I want, this iswhat I want it to look like.
I can achieve this againsuccess, power, brilliance, and
(06:09):
so on.
Number seven they takeadvantage of others, so they're
exploitative in order to achievetheir own ends.
And again, most of these thingsyou don't see right away.
Some of them are more obviousthan others.
Some of them you only start tosee as you start to know and
engage them on a more personallevel.
Okay, because most people kindof keep a surface level
(06:32):
relationship with acquaintancesand just people that they know
or meet.
Number eight envious of others,or believe that others are
envious of him or her.
So, again, they're alwaysdesiring what someone else has
and think that other people havethe same feeling towards them
and, lastly, shows arrogant,haughty behaviors or attitudes.
(06:55):
So, again, these aren't thingsthat are.
These are things that areeasily noticeable in your
interactions with them.
So you wanna take the way thatI would recommend.
Looking at this is look attheir personal relationships,
people that are close to themfriends, family relationships
and so on and then also look atit from a broader perspective.
(07:15):
What do other people outside ofthat circle say about that
person and what do they knowabout that person?
And I think you can find someoverlap with a number of these
things.
But, again, most of these arepretty obvious.
You meet this person and youget at least four to five of
these characteristics andthat'll probably give you a good
idea that they may have NPD.
(07:35):
Again, we're not diagnosingpeople, but these are some of
those identifying factors.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So let me ask you this then as you went through
that list, I was thinking youknow, almost all of us have
exhibited some aspect of thosetraits at some point in our
lives, like whether that'sgrandiose fantasies or acting
haughty in some ways, maybe notexploiting other people
consciously, but certainlyacting in ways that are very
(08:05):
selfish.
Um, what are some others thatyou read at the beginning?
Um, uh.
Grand use of self entitlement,excessive admiration yeah, you
know we've all kind of actedentitled at times or uh or
wanted admiration, dreamed ofhaving admiration.
You know there's a, there's asaying like everyone wants to be
(08:25):
king, you know, for a day.
So yeah, so like, even everyperson can have something like
what you've read and some aspectof that.
So how do you, how do wedistinguish like for for our
listeners out there who's maybelistening to you and checking
off boxes and they're like oh no, I have NPD.
(08:46):
How do you distinguish betweena true narcissist and someone
who just occasionally exhibitsthese traits?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
I think one of them you kind ofalluded to right now is, if
you're worried about some ofthese characteristics, you're
like, oh man, do I have NPD?
That's probably a.
Now is, if you're worried aboutsome of these characteristics,
you're like, oh man, man, do Ihave NPD?
That's probably a good signbecause you're worried about
coming off as a narcissist, andtrue narcissists don't really
care.
He'll be like, oh yeah, that'sthat's me, that's me to a T and,
you know, continue on withtheir day.
(09:19):
But the other part of it is yourinteractions with these people.
In general, these are morecommon than not.
So, for example, I, you know, Ihad friends who you know they
do something great and then theykind of may get a little puffed
up and have this grandiosesense of self, or maybe they
they are under stress and theystart becoming unempathetic
(09:41):
towards other people.
So they treat people a littlebit crappy for a while because
you know they just want to getsomething done and whatever the
case is.
So there could be lack ofempathy there, but that's not
who they are in general, likemost of your interactions with
this person are positive thanthey are in displaying any of
these traits.
So the commonality again is dothey treat people within their
(10:03):
circle this way and what does itlook like with the general
public?
I guess with people outside ofthat circle is another good way
to kind of assess that.
So I think those would be twogood places to start.
What is your overallinteractions with them?
How do they behave?
If you've noticed a pattern ofbehavior of these, again, it
(10:25):
could be four or five of these.
They don't have to display allof them and some of these can't
even be displayed until you'rein a closer relationship with
them.
But lacking empathy,grandiosense of self, excessive
admiration, these are thingsthat at the surface level you
could kind of see.
So in general, in yourinteractions with them, do you
see these traits more often thannot, and that could tell you a
(10:48):
lot.
Again, personality disordersare common behaviors, common
patterns of relating to otherpeople over an extended period
of time.
So you'll see within a coupleof months, definitely within a
year, whether or not thesethings are identifiable.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
All right, so then let's jump to dating unless you
wanted to sit something farther,okay oh yeah, let's go some
stats yeah, there's some.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
There's some stats here from the cleveland clinic
and I think I mentioned this inthe last episode that we did.
But the reason why this topicof of um npd is is important is
because I started to ask myself,well, how common is this
problem?
Like, what population, whatpercentage of the population
(11:36):
actually has this as adiagnosable disorder?
So Cleveland Clinic kind of didsome research with this and
looked at 5% of people sufferfrom NPD, right?
So this is US data.
So this is US data and it saysaround 75% of people who are
diagnosed with this are men.
(11:56):
So 75% men, 25% women.
So what's with this discrepancyand this is one of the
questions as I was preparing forthis is what is that?
Why is that discrepancy so high?
And what you realize is that alot of these characteristics or
traits in some ways help menmove through society, but at the
(12:22):
extreme level of hurting peoplein the process, hurting
relationships, men tend to bemore independent, focused and
wanting to achieve success, sothey're willing to do whatever
it takes to get to that point,right, so much at the expense of
relationships and NPD affectsrelationships.
(12:43):
So one way could be because ofthat, why that discrepancy is so
high 75% of men and it'srewarded in a lot of ways, right
, because a lot of these thingsthe grandiose sense of self, the
person who has it, who has NPDthey will describe that as super
confident.
Right, I'm confident in myself,confident in my ability.
(13:05):
So how do you discern and we'llget to this later how do you
discern between confidence andhaving a grandiose sense of self
?
Or how do you separateconfidence from having this deep
um, uh, what's the word that inadmiration even for your own,
um, qualities andcharacteristics that you have?
(13:25):
So, or even your success, what,what, what plays into that?
And a lot of these things maybe helpful, but one of the
things that I found out evenmore so was these are a lot of
defense mechanisms so that theydon't get hurt along their
journey to success and to becomethe man that they want to be.
(13:45):
So what you find is that thesemen have also been hurt in early
childhood relationships andeven in some of their adult
relationships.
So the only way to deal withthat in some of their adult
relationships so the only way todeal with that a lot of it is
insecurity.
So that's why they have to bethe ones who are their own
cheerleaders and they have to doit in such a way right.
This is where the grandiosesense of self comes into play.
(14:06):
They have to present themselvesin their minds that they are
the most confident, most capable, most skilled person that they
know.
And then they're trying toconvince other people around
them to also believe that.
And again deals with a hugesense of insecurity.
But it's one way in which theyfind motivation to continue to
(14:26):
be successful.
And you'll see this a lot withpeople who are in business, and
if they are very high up on thepay scale, they're making
millions of dollars.
This is the way that they workthrough.
They have to not care about howthey're affecting other people,
because they're only out fortheir own good.
So there's some utility to it.
(14:48):
But what does that actuallylook like in relationships?
And we'll see that here in alittle bit.
Actually look like inrelationships, and we'll see
that here in a little bit.
So a study done by the Journalof Clinical Psychiatry they
published this in the NationalLibrary of Medicine shows these
three traits in men and twoother traits in women.
So three lack of empathy, senseof entitlement and exploitation
(15:16):
.
Those were threecharacteristics that mostly
showed, or that men scoredhigher when it comes to
displaying these characteristicsFor women.
Interestingly enough, one ofthem was envy and arrogance, and
again, the percentage betweenthese is about plus minus five.
Between these is about plusminus five.
(15:37):
So, for example, for women theyscored 78.4, while men scored
72.
On envy and arrogance, womenscored 42, and men scored 35%.
So interesting how these wouldplay a role in their
relationships.
But really, what you find withboth of these it's a way to
protect the self from being hurt, and so on.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Okay.
So if narcissism ornarcissistic traits are a way of
protecting the self, then whatis the root of narcissism?
Is it nature, is it biology, oris it nurture?
Is it some sort ofenvironmental factor that drives
someone to develop NPD?
And if it's the latter, thenwhat does that say about my
(16:23):
earlier comment about socialmedia driving people toward
narcissistic behavior?
Are people actually developingNPD?
On a mass scale.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, I think it's both, and because one of it is
you're going to have somepersonality traits that are
going to be more prone toshowing some of these behaviors
right To showing a moregrandiose sense of self.
But the grandiose sense of selfcould also be the constant
adoration of the parents and theconstant adoration of other
(16:54):
peers and the adoration ofteachers, right.
So a child starts to believeall of these things.
They've been told this alltheir lives.
Then they grew up, turn 18, 19,20, go out into the real world
and have that belief systemright.
So anything that goes againstthat is a shock to them.
That's why one of the othercharacteristics for those who
(17:17):
struggle with NPD or have NPD isthey don't take criticism well,
and again, a big part of thatcould be because the nurture
part of their upbringing wasalways positive.
This is why we need thatbalance of okay, I'm encouraging
you.
But also this needs to becorrected.
(17:37):
And often those who have thisinflated sense of self, they
haven't been corrected by theirpeers, by their parents, by
their teachers.
Because they have such a greatskill at something right, they
do something so well and that'sthe thing that they're praised
for.
So it would make sense in a lotof ways why they become the way
they become when that's thething that's been highlighted in
(17:59):
their life, right?
So someone who's very skilledat working with people or who
has a I don't know able to usetechnology well is good at
business, whatever the case is,if that's something that's been
highlighted in their lives byall these important people in
their lives, then it would makesense why they would have such a
high belief in that aboutthemselves, right?
(18:20):
So any critique, any criticism,anything that shoots down that
image that they've created orthat others have created for
them, that hurts.
That hurts the self-esteem,that hurts the ego, and the way
to protect against that is nope.
I got to believe what I've beentold my whole life and that's
the only way to survive and pushforward.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So that form of narcissism comes from?
Like an over-receiving or, Iguess, receiving too much praise
when you're younger, not enoughcriticism?
What about those who maybe theylack a parental figure in their
life, maybe there's a fatherwho abandoned them or something
(19:04):
like that?
Do some people develop NPD?
Because it's like acompensation for what they
lacked when they were younger.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, that's a great point, Tim.
You do see that a lot right,they have to.
It becomes a survival instinct.
It's not going to help yousurvive if you're putting
yourself down, if the onlypeople in your life have not
communicated the things thatyou're or have communicated to
you, the things that you're notgood at, right.
(19:32):
So if they say, well, you neverdo this right, you never do
that right, at some pointthere's something that triggers
in the person where it's like Ican't live like this.
So they go to the other extremeand everything is emphasized in
the positive, to the pointwhere it starts to change how
they think about themselves, howthey think about people, right.
So again, as they develop thisnew belief in themselves, in
(19:56):
their confidence in their skills, in their abilities, then they
start to believe that so muchthat now anything that anyone
else says about them doesn'tmatter, right.
So now they're just protectinghow they feel, because they felt
crappy for such a long timebecause of what was said about
them.
Now they just enjoy the feelingof confidence and belief in
their skills that no one's goingto move them from that.
(20:17):
Right, it's very hard to movesomeone from something that's
protected them and that's workedout for them and I think that's
the thing that's, from acultural perspective, is also
influencing people is that we'reseeing narcissistic behaviors
be rewarded.
For example, one of the episodesthat we did before was with
(20:40):
prosperity teachers or popularpastors and so on, this
charismatic type movement, right, the reason why other pastors
or other churches are doing thatis because they're seeing that
it produces results, it bringspeople into the church and it
brings a sense of status to thechurch.
So if something's working andit's being rewarded, it makes it
(21:03):
easier for us to kind ofimitate those behaviors.
And I think when we're seeingthese narcissistic behaviors in
other people and it's beingrewarded with success or
promotion or money orrelationships like, people start
imitating that because theythink that's what brings the
reward.
So for these people who grew upand weren't necessarily hyped
(21:28):
up and highlighted their skillsand their abilities, they have
to create a new sense of selfand if that's working for them
and if that's creating the lifethat they want, why would I give
that up?
Right, it wouldn't make senseuntil they hit these barriers in
relationships, right?
Which brings us to the questionso why are people entering
(21:52):
relationships with narcissists?
What is it about the narcissistthat draws people in, right, and
I think one of thecharacteristics that we can look
at is this charismatic way inrelating to people, right?
Earlier, one of thecharacteristics that we read was
(22:14):
taking advantage of others toachieve his or her own needs.
So a charismatic person can bevery exploitative of others in
praising them and giving themwhat they want, giving them what
they feel that they deserve, inorder to eventually get
(22:34):
something out of them right, outof the feel that they deserve,
in order to eventually getsomething out of them right Out
of the people that they're underthem or the relationship that
they're looking for.
Right?
So if it's sex, they're goingto give the girl whatever they
want until they eventually getthat reward in a sense.
Right, so they're using peoplefor their own benefit.
But it feels good when someoneis praising you and they're
(22:57):
really giving you all thisattention.
That feels good.
So I wonder if that's one piecethat draws people to these
narcissistic type of people, andI mentioned earlier in the
episode another piece could bethis idea of surviving these
difficult people right.
(23:18):
Again, there was anothertherapist and she made this
comment about there's narcissismin dating narcissists.
Right, the person who dates thenarcissist goes back with a
story and talks about how muchof a badge of honor it is to
(23:39):
date a narcissist and survivethem right, survive the whole
dating relationship, like theywere treating me like this, like
that.
And the question she says iswell, what made you stay in that
relationship for so long or whyweren't you able to identify
those things beforehand?
And a big part of this weconfuse confidence with
(23:59):
arrogance.
Arrogance is one of thecharacteristics of a narcissist,
right?
So when someone doesn'tunderstand the difference
between those two, it could bethis person's so confident and
really it's arrogance.
And how do we discern betweenthose two?
And I think one of the thingsthat I was able to identify was
confidence is a growth from theprevious self, so meaning that
(24:25):
the person is measuringthemselves with how they were
three, four, five months ago.
Arrogance is this comparisonwith others who are below them.
So I'm much better than andthey're making this comparison
with other people.
Confidence is kind of like oh,I've grown in this area, so it's
a comparison to the former self.
So I think that's one way tolook at that as well.
(24:45):
And again, these aren't thingsthat you see when you first meet
people.
It's as you start to get toknow people, you start to notice
little differences.
But again, you asked thequestion earlier how do you know
if it's NPD or if it's justthey're displaying this trait?
That seems to line up with oneof these characteristics.
And the key factor to look atis, in general, in your overall
(25:10):
interactions with this personhow have they behaved, and if,
every once in a while, you seethem become a little bit selfish
or talking in a grandiose wayor lacking empathy, whatever the
case is, you can tell thatthat's not usually how they are,
so something else is going onthat could be causing that type
of behavior.
For the narcissist, this istheir general way of operating
(25:33):
in the world.
Again, part of it defensemechanism.
Another part of it is, um,that's just the personality that
they've had to develop in orderto move in life and and move
forward and succeed.
So I think that's one of them.
Um, what was the other questionI had here?
Are people becoming narcissistsbecause that is what is being
(25:56):
rewarded by culture?
So what does that mean?
Are people becoming narcissistsbecause that is what's being
rewarded by culture, if you'reconfident or if you're arrogant
and you treat people in acertain way and that's helping
you move ahead in your career,then why not?
(26:19):
That's kind of like thementality is why wouldn't I do
something that helps me moveforward in my career, but you're
doing that at the expense ofyour relationships.
You're doing that at theexpense of hurting someone else
that you may or may not care for, that at the expense of hurting
someone else that you may ormay not care for.
So even us as a culture, Ithink we tend to praise those
(26:41):
who have a sense of charisma andconfidence that we feel like we
lack.
So there's this other piece,another factor that I wanted to
look at the successful person.
Okay, so success is good, butone of the potential traits that
(27:01):
it shows of narcissism is agrandiose sense of self, or this
preoccupation with fantasies ofunlimited power, brilliance and
beauty.
So someone who's successful mayhave these other factors as
part of it, but not necessarily.
Again, someone who's successfulisn't automatically
(27:23):
narcissistic.
So you got to look are theysuccessful and are they
displaying this grandiose senseof self and are they preoccupied
with power, brilliance andmoney?
And lastly, I think there'sthis other piece of independence
People who are highlyindependent.
We see that as a good thing.
Okay, they don't depend onanyone else.
They're kind of paving theirown way.
(27:43):
They're doing what they need todo, but if in that process,
they don't have empathy forothers or show arrogance in the
process, okay, then that maygive us another some signs of
narcissistic personalitydisorder, okay.
Now, all of this that we'vebeen talking about is to lead up
(28:04):
to the question are you datinga narcissist?
And the idea behind that is isit possible that we're confusing
these positive traits right,confidence, successful,
independence with narcissisticpersonality disorders, and can
people differentiate betweenthose two?
(28:25):
Now, I guess a question for you, tim as I've shared or laid out
those two things has it becomemore clear in here's what's
narcissistic and here's what'sconfidence, success,
independence and so on?
(28:46):
Is there a clear line or do youthink there's still some some
overlap?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Well, I think.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I think, some overlap .
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Well, I think there's still some overlap, because I'm
thinking of a few individualsthat I'm convinced are
narcissists, that I know, andthere's just a way that they act
that gives it away, um, and soI think what would help is, when
(29:13):
we get into this question justso we're not accused of
clickbait, let's get into thequestion about is someone dating
a narcissist?
How do you know?
Or how they maybe talk aboutother people Like I guess what
are some really quick, easythings to recognize that are
like yep, that's a narcissist.
(29:42):
I do think you're right, though, that people can look at
confidence and think, oh, thatperson's arrogant.
Or they can look at success andthink, well, they only got
there by abusing other people.
So, yeah, I think you're rightthere, that people, as I said at
the beginning of the episode,people just throw out the term
narcissism nowadays as a blanketthing for anything and
(30:07):
everything, and that's notreally that helpful.
Certainly there's people whoare arrogant and use other
people to their ends.
It doesn't make them anarcissist.
It could make them a jerk.
Yeah exactly A jerk isn'tnecessarily a narcissist, so
yeah, so I guess with people indating relationships, if they're
(30:30):
really kind of concerned aboutlike am I involved with the
narcissist, or perhaps even in amarriage relationship, what are
some signs, I guess, that theother person is narcissistic or
maybe has NPD.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, that's good, that's good.
So if we go through thesedifferent characteristics, I
think I'll start to flesh out alittle bit more.
So, for example, lackingempathy is probably the clearest
one.
When two people are in arelationship, there's a sense of
care and wanting to understandanother person's feelings and
wanting to see how they can meettheir needs.
(31:06):
Right, we see ourselves ascomplementary, like I want to be
able to meet your needs and youwould meet my needs.
So it's mutual.
It's a mutual commitment towanting to meet the other
person's needs and to understandtheir feelings.
If you're dating a narcissist,there's this idea of I don't
care what you need, here's whatI need.
I don't care how you feel,here's how I feel.
(31:26):
And again, in relationshipsit's not that it happens once,
twice, three times, it's thatthis is the common theme in the
relationship, right?
The common theme is that thisis the common theme in the
relationship, right?
The common theme is that thisperson only cares about what
they need.
They only care about what theywant and how they feel, but when
I share what I'm needing orfeeling, they don't care, right?
(31:48):
So that's probably a verycommon one to address.
Again, think about it in lengthof time.
Is this the most commonbehavior every time throughout
your relationship?
Is this the theme of therelationship?
I think that can help out alittle bit In a behavioral
standpoint.
One of the and this a lot ofpeople who have dated
narcissists.
They describe this behavior.
(32:10):
When walking in public, theperson, the narcissist, walks a
few steps ahead as a way ofcreating the sense of I'm the
important one, you're thesupport and you don't deserve to
kind of be in the spotlight.
So they'll see.
And you may see that if youwant to go and just kind of go
to the mall and people watch,right, you can kind of see these
things kind of play out.
(32:30):
Again, it's not as common as wethink, but if you see it, you
know it and if you see it, youknow it and if you feel it, it's
this idea of this person's theone who needs to have the
spotlight.
The other person is just kindof the support system, right,
the one who's following and soon.
So in that sense again, thatgrandiose sense of self, or even
the need for excessiveadmiration, you'll see that a
(32:58):
lot when there's a couple andyou have one who's praising the
other person for how great theyare as a as a boyfriend, as a
husband, or as a wife, as agirlfriend, and the other person
doesn't say anything in return.
I don't know if you've everbeen around relationships like
that, where there's one who youknow I won the lottery with this
person like they're the bestand so on, and you see no
response from the other partner,like it's just quiet.
Yeah, that's true.
So kind of excessive admiration,but also the idea that they're
(33:23):
special, right, like they're thespecial one in the relationship
.
And if people can kind of seethat there's a clear distinction
when they're around otherpeople, as who is supposed to be
the star and who is just kindof the support, right, so they
want to make it very clear tothemselves and to other people
that they're the important onein the relationship, and it's
(33:45):
very noticeable.
So it's not subtle, it's verynoticeable.
So that's another way in whichyou can tell that as well.
Sense of entitlement that's abig one, right.
They deserve treatment, notjust from the person that
they're dating but also fromother people around them.
And if they as a couple receivespecial treatment from others,
(34:05):
it's because of that, thenarcissist, that they're
receiving that service and thatadmiration, and they'll make it
a point to make sure that theother person in the relationship
knows why they're receivingthat praise, like, oh, this is
because of me, because of allthat I've done, or because of
how I served them, or because ofwhat I did here, right, they
make it very clear to thatperson what their role in the
(34:28):
relationship is.
So it's very much like this andwe're not talking about
biblical roles.
I mean, it is a distinctseparation of I'm here, you're
here and that's.
That's just the way that it isand it'll always be like that so
those?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
so those list people in our show, fans who are just
listening and not watching thevideo.
Can you explain what you didwith your hands?
Oh, like having one one handway up high, one way down low so
the narcissist is like I'm wayup high and my partner's way
down low.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Way down low and it's not like this, right, so I'm
barely kind of creating thespace between my hands, but it's
noticeable, so it's, you know,and he makes sure that other
people know that he is the starand she is not, or vice versa
(35:30):
bad news, what?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
what advice do you have for someone who might be?
Let's start with a datingrelationship.
What advice do you have?
Because maybe that's easierwith dating, um, and how to
handle that.
But what about marriage?
Like somebody might be marriedto a narcissistic person, what,
so let's start with a dating one.
What advice do you have forthem?
And then, what advice do youhave for someone who's like I
think I married a narcissist?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, when you mentioned that, the one with the
dating I'm reminded of.
I think it was BenjaminFranklin.
He said keep your eyes wideopen before marriage and half
shut afterwards.
So this idea of pay attentionto everything before you get
married and then afterwardslearn to let go of a couple of
(36:11):
things that are going to get onyour nerves right.
And I think in dating it's weget excited when we see that
person who's very confident,very accomplished, very well put
together, and we just want tostart the relationship.
So there's no filtering ourprocess, it's just like they're
great, they're attractive, theyseem well put together, they're
(36:33):
independent, all these differentthings again, for both men and
women and we just want to getinto the relationship.
And you get into therelationship and you haven't
filtered out all these otherthings that you're seeing and
you figure out, maybe three, six, nine months down the road,
that all of these traits arestarting to become evident to
you and it makes it harder toget out of a situation like that
(36:56):
Because now especially, there'sbeen physical intimacy, now
you're attached to this personand I think that's what makes it
hard for people to leaverelationships like this.
And I'm trying to think back tohim at some of our episodes.
I don't think we talked aboutthe impact of premarital sex,
but one of the things I haveseen a lot in people that I
counsel it's they may datesomeone for a month and if there
(37:20):
was no physical intimacy theyhurt a little bit but they're
able to move on.
But those who have had sexbefore or during that time they
have such a much harder timeletting go of that person again
because it's created a bond.
And I think that's what happensin this relationship is that
all these things are good.
They seem very, very great atthe beginning.
(37:41):
If they're confident, they makeyou feel good, so it makes it
easy to jump into a relationship.
But if you see thesecharacteristics like again, look
at their close relationships,look at it from a broader
perspective of what other peopleare saying or thinking about
that person, and then see, checkin on your experiences with
that person.
Okay, what am I seeing?
(38:02):
And just paying attention toall of these different things.
How do they talk about money?
How do they talk about success?
How do they talk about otherpeople?
Right, and then you'll start tosee, right, this preoccupation,
maybe with oh you know, I wantto be the best the CEO of said
company and I want to makemillions and I want to do this.
(38:23):
I want to do that.
Okay, just take note.
Okay, good, how do they talkabout other people?
Are they talking about otherpeople in a way where they're
putting them down in order tomake themselves look better in
your eyes?
That could be another factor,right, are they only talking
about themselves?
(38:43):
Do you ever see them praiseother people and lift other
people up in front of you andeven behind their backs?
Right, where they say goodthings about other people, right
?
So all of these are just thingsthat you start to figure out as
you get to know the person moreand more.
So you just got to observe,take note, observe, take note
and again, with time, you startto see the patterns.
A couple of months, I think,two, three months you can start
(39:06):
seeing the patterns Again.
That's depending how much yousee them, how often you hang
around them, around theirfriends and so on.
You start to see thesebehaviors a lot more Again,
spend a lot of time with thatperson and just take note.
So for those who are dating,it's before you start dating
this person.
All of these things are verypositive.
These characteristics may seempositive on the surface.
(39:28):
But again, take your time, slowit down, take note and you'll
start to see these actualcharacteristics.
If they are narcissistic, youwill see these things come up
within a couple months.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Okay, so let's jump to the marriage question.
All of those traits now in amarriage relationship.
What advice do you have forsomeone who feels like maybe I
married a narcissist?
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that one.
It's a.
It's a lot harder, it's muchmore complicated, because what
do you do?
Really?
The line is, do they becomeabusive?
Right, that's, that's reallythe key thing, because, you know
, some people are people who arenarcissists.
They're just annoying, right.
That's really the key thing, atleast for me, because some
people are people who arenarcissists.
They're just annoying, right.
They're annoying to be aroundand it's kind of like I just
(40:15):
can't stand being around you,like you're saying all these
things about other people.
So they're probably receivingthat in some way, shape or form
in the marriage context, so,okay, so it's kind of like just
those things that are annoying.
But another characteristic of anarcissist is that they will
become verbally, emotionally,even physically abusive, right.
So at that point, that's reallythe line.
(40:36):
I think, where I drive was like,okay, um, you're not safe here.
Like what needs to happen here?
You know, do you guys need togo to counseling?
And again, go to counselingtogether and discuss this.
But again, withists, they'reable to manipulate the counselor
unless the counselor isexperienced in working with
narcissists.
And I think that's starting tobecome a niche in the counseling
(40:58):
field where people want tolearn more about narcissism.
So they can deal withnarcissists within the
counseling setting.
So they can deal withnarcissists within the
counseling setting Because,again, if they're very
charismatic and if they areexploitative of other people am
I saying that right?
Exploitative Sounds right.
If they're doing that withother people, then it's likely
(41:20):
that they're going to do thatwith the counselor.
But the counselor, who iswell-informed on how narcissists
behave, they'll be able tocatch that and redirect the
conversation within counseling,right.
But again, any personalitydisorder you're not just NPD,
but most personalities are justdifficult because it becomes a
part of who they are.
That's just how they learn tooperate and again, to break down
(41:44):
these self-defense mechanismsfor them.
I mean, that's a lot of work.
It needs to be done at theindividual level and also at the
relational level, and it's hard.
And how long would thatnarcissist stay within the
counseling setting?
I don't know, right.
So my line is has he becomeabusive?
(42:05):
Right, and typically it's goingto hinge a little bit on
emotional and verbal abuse.
So if they're degrading you,they're putting you down, they
do it in front of other people,right?
And this is where we start topay attention.
So if you're in groups andtypically narcissists will avoid
big groups.
But if you're in group settings, pay attention to that.
(42:26):
All these little signs that I'vebeen mentioning of how they
treat their partner, how theytreat other people.
Just have it as a little flag.
Oh, that's interesting.
Check in with the person.
And again, one thing to takenote of as well is this also
happens to the men.
So typically I'm speaking aboutit from how men treat their
(42:49):
girlfriends or their wives.
But also there's the other one.
It's a little more subtlebecause it's not as common with
women to mistreat their husbands.
So just something to be mindfulof how do they treat them?
How do they talk about them?
Those are just some of theindicators that you can pay
attention as a friend, as thebody of Christ, to ask and be
(43:10):
willing to go there if you seethese red flags, so seek out
church leadership, seek outcounseling.
And again, the final line for meis, once they become
emotionally, verbally abusiveand physically abusive, that's a
really bad sign.
Yeah, I would say, talk to yourpastor, see what the guidance
(43:33):
is after that and a counselor.
Actually, I would say this ifit's become physically abusive,
I already know it's beenemotionally and verbally abusive
, right, because that's the lastbarrier that people reach.
The emotional verbal abuse is alittle bit difficult to define
or to describe.
But if someone has already gotto the physically abusive piece,
I know that the other two havehappened already.
(43:54):
So it's just kind of like thebuild up.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
That's good advice.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah, all right?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, yeah, hopefully this was helpful, guys, and
hopefully you're not dating anurse.
And yeah, yeah, hopefully thiswas helpful, guys, and hopefully
you're not dating a nurse andhopefully, as you are seeing
these things, that you can catchthese things beforehand if
you're thinking about dating umand if you are in a relationship
like that, you know, seek help,ask questions and um, you know,
we'll see how we can help withthat.
But uh, yeah, thank you fortuning in and we'll see you next
(44:23):
time.
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