February 11, 2025 • 21 mins
EPISODE THREE – Jeremy Dutcher and 2 Spirited People of the 1st Nations
“The Indigenous Renaissance has begun.”
In part one, Daniel speaks with warm and wonderful composer/musician Jeremy Dutcher from Jeremy’s home in Montreal a few weeks before the Pink Awards, Canada’s top LGBTQ+ Activist Award Ceremony. Jeremy talks about where his queer and Indigenous identities intersect, and how that opens up a conversation about middle people that the entire 2SLGBTQ+ community can participate in.
Part two features a conversation with Keith McCrady and Denise McLeod of 2 Spirited People of the 1st Nations from their offices in Toronto. They speak about the fluidness of 2-Spiritedness and their own journeys toward understanding its place in their lives and in their communities. The episode features Jeremy at the Pink Awards LGBTQ+ event, performing People are Rising from his Polaris Prize winning album Motewolonuwok.
Queer Joy is a seven part podcast celebrating the 2024 Pink Triangle Press Pink Awards.
The PTP Pink Awards are a national pay-it-forward celebration of queer excellence where community champions choose changemaking charities from the queer community to uplift and amplify. In 2024 we celebrated champions writer/actor/producer Elliot Page, musician/composer Jeremy Dutcher, activist Latoya Nugent, athlete Marie-Philip Poulin, musician/composer Rufus Wainwright and our legacy award winner philanthropist Salah Bachir. Join host Daniel MacIvor where he shares unforgettable moments from the awards and interviews where he sits down for honest and insightful conversations with our Champions and their chosen charities. Experience Queer Joy with Daniel MacIvor, some true queer Champions and our PTP Pink Awards with host Queen Priyanka
Pink Triangle Press formed in 1971 as a collective to publish The Body Politic – a monthly newspaper that is regarded today as a game-changer in the queer media landscape. And in 1984 as an offshoot of The Body Politic PTP formed Xtra Magazine, more focused on social life and culture, lighter fare, available free in bars. And when The Body Politic closed its operation in 1987 Xtra took over as PTP’s main publication mixing arts and culture coverage with harder news stories. There were print editions published out of Toronto, Vancouver and Ottawa. In 2015 Xtra moved entirely online where it continues the legacy of the original publication with award-winning journalism that strives to be – as its banner proudly states – queering the conversation. Check them out at xtramagazine.com.
#podcast #awards #queer
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hi, I'm Daniel MacIvor, and this is Queer Joy, the PTP Pink Awards
2024. Join us as we celebrate the champions and change makers of the
inaugural year of these new awards for queer excellence. This episode,
Jeremy Dutcher and 2 Spirited People of the 1st Nations. When I was
first brought on to help produce the awards ceremony and its content,
(00:29):
there was one champion already in place, Jeremy Dutcher. I had been aware
of Jeremy as a Polaris Prize winning musician, now outspoken queer comrade.
His pronouns are he/they or Nikom in his language, Wolastoqiyik. And as
a fellow East Coaster, he was born and raised in New Brunswick in
Wolastoq, colonially known as Fredericton and the Tobique First Nation.
(00:51):
I was also aware of his determined work to revitalize the Wolastoqey language.
But it wasn't until I got lost in Motewolonuwok, his 2024 Polaris winning
album, an unprecedented second Polaris Prize for an artist, that I really
understood the power of his art. It's an amazing piece of work and
in fact his single, "Pomawsuwinuwok Wonakiyawolotuwok", or People are Rising
(01:12):
ended up on my end of year list on my music app as
one of my most played songs of the year. This is Jeremy performing
that song at the Pink Awards in November of 2024 in Toronto. To
(02:29):
talk with Jeremy is to be struck by his warmth. Despite his movie
star good looks and reputation as a fashion icon, he emanates a deep
hearted down to earthness. And his activism is like that too.
It is ever present, but never heavy, always looking forward and focused
on opportunity. This is Jeremy after a live studio performance at KEXP Public
(02:51):
Radio in Seattle. Let's start getting creative about reimagining what seats
of power actually look like. As a matriarchal people, it looks very different
from what's going on right now. Like maybe we need to abolish these
governments and just put some grandmas, some matriarchs, just let them drive
the bus for a while. I first had the opportunity to talk to
(03:12):
Jeremy while he was doing an artist residency on Fogo Island in Newfoundland,
and then later, I talked with him while he was sitting on the
back fire escape at his home in Montreal. This is that conversation.
I was recently listening to the interview you gave after the live concert
at the NPR station in Seattle... At KEXP? Yeah, yeah. And I loved
how you described what you do. Oh God, what did I say?
(03:34):
I play the piano and do some singing.
It's a bit of an undersell. Well, let me tell you.
No, let me tell you, because we have
thing called the law of humility. This is like a fundamental teaching,
and so I have to honor that all the time. So,
yeah, sometimes I minimize maybe what I do or... What did I say
(03:55):
again? I play some piano and do some singing? You said,
I play the piano and do some singing. That might be my new
bio line. Okay. I wanted to start by talking about your own journey
in coming to terms with your queer identity meeting your indigenous identity.
Oh, Daniel, you're starting with the small questions, eh? Just the easy
over the plate ones. Well, no. I mean, specifically in terms of,
(04:17):
as you talked about before, the challenges for queer and indigenous youth
generally. Yeah. Well, I mean, because it's such a critical time
being a youth and trying to figure out how you fit,
where you fall in this big human story,
I always think about the limits of our language are the limits of
(04:40):
our mind. Until we can name it, until we can speak about it,
we can't really understand it. So it wasn't until I started to meet
other people that sat at that intersection between indigenous identity and
LGBT identity, 2 spirit people, that it really kind of came home to
me that, yeah, there's a way to integrate all of you.
(05:02):
You don't have to choose. You don't have to separate yourself.
In the KEXP interview, you talked about respecting the teaching of balance.
This feels like that. Right. When we think about balance and when we
talk about balance, I think as middle people, as people who sit maybe
even in between genders, we have a lot to offer the human family
(05:25):
when it comes to balance, because so many of us have those balance
of the masculine and the feminine inside of ourselves. And so I think
it's a beautiful gift that our queer kin can offer to everyone,
is to seek that balance and find... So there's this... We're reaching towards
(05:45):
each other, I think, all the time. Everybody. But I think it's the
queer people, it's the middle people that have that gift. We're born with
that. And it's the world of homophobia and transphobia and dogmatism that
takes us away from that teaching. And so what is it that we
offer, practically offer the human family? The truth is that queer people
(06:10):
are in every facet of every way of being, and we've hidden that
to think like, oh, gay only looks like this, or like lesbians only
look like this, and we've narrowed ourselves into these boxes. That's why
I like using the word queer, 'cause I think it's this beautiful umbrella
that can hold us all and all of those diverse experiences within us.
(06:32):
But it is that because... And that's our strength. It's because
rainbow people are coming from every nation, every occupation, every vocation,
every denomination. It's like we are everywhere. And so when we come together
as those people from every corner, those conversations that we can have
(06:55):
are really generative and are really unique. So I think that's one of
our collectivity and how we come together outside of our cultural community
or religious community. We find our own way together. And I think through
that we weave our experiences in a way that makes us really strong
(07:16):
as a community. So you talk about the middle people, and the middle
is something, a place we can be born into, but is it something
that we should be all striving toward? I think it goes back to
that understanding of balance, that when we are too much in one direction,
we're outside of the truth. So I think
(07:37):
where we can offer that light to people is to say that there's
beauty in the middle and there's a lot of... If we're only listening
to either end of that spectrum, then we're really missing so much in
between. So I think we just have to keep insisting on our middleness
or our refusal to choose. I think those non binary kin are some
(08:01):
of the most brave because they're really stepping outside of a whole system
that we've constructed as humans. Something that came up when we talked
when you were on Fogo Island, was the most basic binary to smash
was the binary of knowing and not knowing? Yeah.
Yes, exactly. Right, or good and evil is another one of those.
(08:23):
We have this tendency to boil down our experience into this and that
and black and white and good and evil and those binaries.
I think we're in a time when, and it is those non binary
people that are leading the way and showing us that actually to choose
another way is a very valid choice and maybe the most valid choice.
(08:45):
That's another gift that we offer to people. Something else that we talked
about in that Fogo conversation was the use of 2S in the LGBTQ
acronym. So when considering the expansiveness of two spiritedness, that
usage can be reductive? Yeah, definitely. I think there's
this tendency to be reductive when we want to be inclusive.
(09:09):
So we say, oh, well, we really want to do 2 spirit work,
and we want to include indigenous people in this LGBT work we're doing.
So we put a 2S in our acronym,
which is, it's a symbol. But if it's not backed up by real
consideration and work, I feel like it loses the spirit of the gesture.
(09:34):
So I hope that we can go past tokenism and really start to
work together. But in my mind, it all comes down to relationships and
relationship building. And if we're not actually going
to where indigenous people are, coming to our gatherings, showing up...
(09:54):
I always say, anywhere in North America, anywhere on Twitter island that
you go, you go to any major city, and you're gonna be close
to a reservation. You're gonna be close to a place where native people
gather. So I think it's really important for all of us,
even newcomers who just arrived here, to go get to know your neighbors,
get to know the people of this place. And in our languages that
(10:16):
come from this land, there's a lot of teachings and understandings that
I think can benefit all of humanity. And 2 spirit, and that middle
path is one of those ways, I think. So if you want to
be an ally, it's got to go further than just speaking it. We
gotta actually show up for each other and get to know each other.
(10:37):
After the break, we'll meet Jeremy's changemaker. This is Queer Joy,
celebrating the champions and changemakers of the 2024 PTP Pink Awards,
and I'm Daniel MacIvor. The 2024 PTP Pink Awards was made possible by
(11:00):
the generous support of our sponsors. And we are deeply grateful for the
generosity of our title sponsor, Deciem, The Abnormal Beauty Company. Thanks
to Sara Fromstein and the entire Deciem team.
Welcome back to Queer Joy. I'm Daniel MacIvor. And this is Jeremy Dutcher.
(11:21):
At the 2024 PTP Pink Awards. When I first moved to this place,
my mother, she said, now when you go, go meet the native people.
She's like, that's the first thing you do when you go somewhere new.
You go meet your new hosts. And so I started to look into
native organizations here in the city. Even just to see the name of
this organization on a poster is a statement of self determination that
(11:48):
we are here and that queer people, 2 spirit people, LGBT indigenous people,
have a place in our community. I heard this beautiful quote once.
It said, the place where discriminations meet is a dangerous place to live.
And so when we talk about people living at the intersection of queer
identity, of Indigenous identity, those are people that need a lot of support.
And this organization particularly has been a light. And so when I first
(12:12):
went to that organization, it was like the first week I moved here,
I was like in my early 20s. I was super nervous.
I knew one person in town, but I went to that organization and
there was about a staff of less than 10. And I was just
talking to the organization tonight. They have more than 80 staff now.
So this is a... Yeah. I don't wanna talk too much.
(12:36):
I wanna just invite them up. Please welcome tonight our representatives
from 2 spirit People of the First Nations. Give it up. 2 Spirited
People of the 1st Nations is a Tkaronto, or colonially Toronto,
based organization that describes itself as helping two spirited people
to nurture and grow within their sacred roles and celebrate their strengths
(12:56):
and to provide physical, emotional, mental and spiritual advocacy and support
to community members who are facing the effects of historic and ongoing
colonial violence so that they may thrive within their communities and nations.
Multidisciplinary 2 spirit artist Tyler J. Sloane spoke with 2 Spirited
People of the 1st Nations at their office in downtown Toronto. 0:13:17.2Denise
D. McLeod (13:17):
Hi, my name is Denise B. McLeod. I'm the Board President
of 2 Spirited People of the 1st Nations. I am Anishinaabe from Sagamok Anishnawbek
First Nations. I am Eagle Clan. I use she and her pronoun.
My name is Keith McCrady. I also go by Mahogany Makwa.
I'm from Biinjitiwaabik Zaaging Anishinaabek. I'm Ojibwe and Cree. I'm part
(13:41):
of the Bear Clan. And my role here at 2 Spirited People of
the 1st Nations is the executive director. I have no preferred pronouns,
which is very different than I go by all pronouns. It's a way
to honor me knowing that English isn't our chosen language. Tyler asked
Keith and Denise how they felt about Jeremy choosing 2 Spirited People of
the 1st Nations as his changemaker. Well, when I first heard this,
(14:04):
I was obviously quite excited. I'm actually a huge music fan,
so I was quite excited because I own their vinyl. But also one
of the key things for an organization is to have unrestricted funds,
and it's pretty important to be able to have access for self determination.
0:14:21.5Denise D. McLeod (14:20):
I know Jeremy from community, and I love their
music and also own their albums. And Jeremy is such a huge supporter
and very well spoken, outgoing advocate for 2 Spirited People and for the
Indigenous community as a whole. So Jeremy said something six or seven years
(14:42):
ago at this point, and it was, be ready for the Indigenous renaissance.
And I remember thinking like 1, yes, and 2, I used that sentence
so much when I was teaching and talking about how all of the
things I'm teaching you or all of the trauma that Indigenous peoples have
(15:02):
experienced, it's also, we're also thriving. We're also building and making
and creating. And Indigenous folks are often painted as we're very old time
or primitive, or we don't have the same skills to be artists as
the West. And Jeremy took all of the things that the West taught
(15:23):
them and blew it out of the water and made it...
The first album is so important. I'm not Mi'kmaq. I don't speak the
Mi'kmaq language. I know that Anishinaabe is under the same language umbrella,
but it feels, it felt new and exciting. I just think about that
time, really important time, where the renaissance is happening in this
(15:47):
Indigenous renaissance. That first album of Jeremy's that Denise is talking
about is 'Wolastoqiyik Lintuwakonawa', that Jeremy's website describes as
a post classical rearrangement of traditional music that Jeremy rediscovered
at the Canadian Museum of History from 1907. These were wax cylinders of
his ancestors singing forgotten songs of the Wolastoqey Nation. The Guardian
(16:09):
describes the album as avant garde neo opera. It was heralded internationally,
won Jeremy his first Polaris Prize, and set the stage for Jeremy working
with colonial perceived urban notions like opera, inside explorations of
his own ancestors and land based culture, and as Denise said,
blowing the old ideas out of the water. Keith had this to say
(16:30):
about Jeremy's two sided perspective. Finding ways to connect with the urban
community, but also still connect with the Indigenous community is a challenge.
And so, I'm really happy that someone like Jeremy could say,
you get to do whatever you want, be whoever you want.
You could pick things that you like of the Western world,
(16:51):
but you can still honor your own traditions and your own language and
your own values, so. So part of the Indigenous renaissance is embracing
what Indigenous people have called two eyed seeing, living inside Indigenous
knowledge and using what's useful from the colonization project to move
forward inside this system. And part of that moving forward is understanding
how two spiritedness exists inside the LGBTQ acronym. Not only is there
(17:16):
a question about reductiveness and false equivalencies, two spiritedness
is a broader idea than strictly sexuality or gender, as people also argue
transness is, and two spiritedness itself is a fluid idea. Denise had this
to say about her journey. 0:17:31.8Denise D. McLeod (17:29):
My understanding of
my own two spiritedness, it has been an evolution. I always knew that
I was queer and understood 2 spirit to be a role in community.
And I was, at the time when I started figuring out my gender
(17:51):
and my identity, my sexual identity, I knew that 2 spirit was
a role within community that I didn't want to pick up. That wasn't
my... I did not want to do that right away. And I was
like, I don't know if I'm ready for this responsibility. And also understanding
that 2 spirit means something different to everyone and that's okay.
(18:11):
Like there are no wrong teachings, there are no bad teachings.
There are only teachings. And so for me, I do define myself as
two spirited in a way that is more my sexuality based rather than
my gender. And also understanding that over the last 10 ish years,
there also have been other terms that have been started to be coined
(18:31):
in English to define the intricate relationship between indigeneity and
our queerness, that we have been told that it was always something to
be ashamed of or that it didn't exist prior to colonization when we
know that's absolutely incorrect. And I really enjoy that we are starting
(18:54):
to find different ways to identify ourselves as queer, gay, lesbian,
trans, indigenous people. As I said off the top, Jeremy was the first
champion to come on board with the Pink Awards. He was the first
to say yes. With his belief in us came confidence, and helped us
to realize a very special event, a very special moment of joy for
(19:15):
our community. Thanks for walking with us, Jeremy. Thanks to Amelia Moses
in Montreal and Tyler J. Sloane in Toronto. Please join us for our
next episode with warrior activist Latoya Nugent and her changemaker, Among
Friends. I'll leave the last words to Denise and Keith. This has been
Queer Joy. Thanks for listening. 0:19:45.0Denise D. McLeod (19:33):
I introduce
myself in the language so that our ancestors know that we are still
here. My government name is Denise McLeod and I am the Board President,
(19:57):
and I'm honored to share the stage with Keith, the Executive Director.
So I'm Keith and I'm really happy to be here. So since I've
been at this agency, I haven't really had a chance. It's been six
years and there's been a lot of growth and a lot of change
and I haven't had a chance to be proud. And so I'm very
(20:18):
proud and I'm proud of our community. I'm also proud to have people
to look up to like Jeremy who really understand what it takes to
be successful in a system that was built to make us fail.
I can't pretend that this was made for us. And we're gonna still
(20:41):
thrive, and we're gonna say, if you wanna work with us,
great. If you don't, just get out of the way. Right? 'Cause we're
really ready to do the work. And so I just appreciate everyone here
tonight that honors and respects that. Queer Joy is a production of Pink
(21:06):
Triangle Press.
Hi, I'm Daniel MacIvor, and this is Queer Joy, the PTP Pink Awards
2024. Join us as we celebrate the champions and change makers of the
inaugural year of these new awards for queer excellence. This episode,
Jeremy Dutcher and 2 Spirited People of the 1st Nations. When I was
first brought on to help produce the awards ceremony and its content,
(00:29):
there was one champion already in place, Jeremy Dutcher. I had been aware
of Jeremy as a Polaris Prize winning musician, now outspoken queer comrade.
His pronouns are he/they or Nikom in his language, Wolastoqiyik. And as
a fellow East Coaster, he was born and raised in New Brunswick in
Wolastoq, colonially known as Fredericton and the Tobique First Nation.
(00:51):
I was also aware of his determined work to revitalize the Wolastoqey language.
But it wasn't until I got lost in Motewolonuwok, his 2024 Polaris winning
album, an unprecedented second Polaris Prize for an artist, that I really
understood the power of his art. It's an amazing piece of work and
in fact his single, "Pomawsuwinuwok Wonakiyawolotuwok", or People are Rising
(01:12):
ended up on my end of year list on my music app as
one of my most played songs of the year. This is Jeremy performing
that song at the Pink Awards in November of 2024 in Toronto. To
(02:29):
talk with Jeremy is to be struck by his warmth. Despite his movie
star good looks and reputation as a fashion icon, he emanates a deep
hearted down to earthness. And his activism is like that too.
It is ever present, but never heavy, always looking forward and focused
on opportunity. This is Jeremy after a live studio performance at KEXP Public
(02:51):
Radio in Seattle. Let's start getting creative about reimagining what seats
of power actually look like. As a matriarchal people, it looks very different
from what's going on right now. Like maybe we need to abolish these
governments and just put some grandmas, some matriarchs, just let them drive
the bus for a while. I first had the opportunity to talk to
(03:12):
Jeremy while he was doing an artist residency on Fogo Island in Newfoundland,
and then later, I talked with him while he was sitting on the
back fire escape at his home in Montreal. This is that conversation.
I was recently listening to the interview you gave after the live concert
at the NPR station in Seattle... At KEXP? Yeah, yeah. And I loved
how you described what you do. Oh God, what did I say?
(03:34):
I play the piano and do some singing.
It's a bit of an undersell. Well, let me tell you.
No, let me tell you, because we have
thing called the law of humility. This is like a fundamental teaching,
and so I have to honor that all the time. So,
yeah, sometimes I minimize maybe what I do or... What did I say
(03:55):
again? I play some piano and do some singing? You said,
I play the piano and do some singing. That might be my new
bio line. Okay. I wanted to start by talking about your own journey
in coming to terms with your queer identity meeting your indigenous identity.
Oh, Daniel, you're starting with the small questions, eh? Just the easy
over the plate ones. Well, no. I mean, specifically in terms of,
(04:17):
as you talked about before, the challenges for queer and indigenous youth
generally. Yeah. Well, I mean, because it's such a critical time
being a youth and trying to figure out how you fit,
where you fall in this big human story,
I always think about the limits of our language are the limits of
(04:40):
our mind. Until we can name it, until we can speak about it,
we can't really understand it. So it wasn't until I started to meet
other people that sat at that intersection between indigenous identity and
LGBT identity, 2 spirit people, that it really kind of came home to
me that, yeah, there's a way to integrate all of you.
(05:02):
You don't have to choose. You don't have to separate yourself.
In the KEXP interview, you talked about respecting the teaching of balance.
This feels like that. Right. When we think about balance and when we
talk about balance, I think as middle people, as people who sit maybe
even in between genders, we have a lot to offer the human family
(05:25):
when it comes to balance, because so many of us have those balance
of the masculine and the feminine inside of ourselves. And so I think
it's a beautiful gift that our queer kin can offer to everyone,
is to seek that balance and find... So there's this... We're reaching towards
(05:45):
each other, I think, all the time. Everybody. But I think it's the
queer people, it's the middle people that have that gift. We're born with
that. And it's the world of homophobia and transphobia and dogmatism that
takes us away from that teaching. And so what is it that we
offer, practically offer the human family? The truth is that queer people
(06:10):
are in every facet of every way of being, and we've hidden that
to think like, oh, gay only looks like this, or like lesbians only
look like this, and we've narrowed ourselves into these boxes. That's why
I like using the word queer, 'cause I think it's this beautiful umbrella
that can hold us all and all of those diverse experiences within us.
(06:32):
But it is that because... And that's our strength. It's because
rainbow people are coming from every nation, every occupation, every vocation,
every denomination. It's like we are everywhere. And so when we come together
as those people from every corner, those conversations that we can have
(06:55):
are really generative and are really unique. So I think that's one of
our collectivity and how we come together outside of our cultural community
or religious community. We find our own way together. And I think through
that we weave our experiences in a way that makes us really strong
(07:16):
as a community. So you talk about the middle people, and the middle
is something, a place we can be born into, but is it something
that we should be all striving toward? I think it goes back to
that understanding of balance, that when we are too much in one direction,
we're outside of the truth. So I think
(07:37):
where we can offer that light to people is to say that there's
beauty in the middle and there's a lot of... If we're only listening
to either end of that spectrum, then we're really missing so much in
between. So I think we just have to keep insisting on our middleness
or our refusal to choose. I think those non binary kin are some
(08:01):
of the most brave because they're really stepping outside of a whole system
that we've constructed as humans. Something that came up when we talked
when you were on Fogo Island, was the most basic binary to smash
was the binary of knowing and not knowing? Yeah.
Yes, exactly. Right, or good and evil is another one of those.
(08:23):
We have this tendency to boil down our experience into this and that
and black and white and good and evil and those binaries.
I think we're in a time when, and it is those non binary
people that are leading the way and showing us that actually to choose
another way is a very valid choice and maybe the most valid choice.
(08:45):
That's another gift that we offer to people. Something else that we talked
about in that Fogo conversation was the use of 2S in the LGBTQ
acronym. So when considering the expansiveness of two spiritedness, that
usage can be reductive? Yeah, definitely. I think there's
this tendency to be reductive when we want to be inclusive.
(09:09):
So we say, oh, well, we really want to do 2 spirit work,
and we want to include indigenous people in this LGBT work we're doing.
So we put a 2S in our acronym,
which is, it's a symbol. But if it's not backed up by real
consideration and work, I feel like it loses the spirit of the gesture.
(09:34):
So I hope that we can go past tokenism and really start to
work together. But in my mind, it all comes down to relationships and
relationship building. And if we're not actually going
to where indigenous people are, coming to our gatherings, showing up...
(09:54):
I always say, anywhere in North America, anywhere on Twitter island that
you go, you go to any major city, and you're gonna be close
to a reservation. You're gonna be close to a place where native people
gather. So I think it's really important for all of us,
even newcomers who just arrived here, to go get to know your neighbors,
get to know the people of this place. And in our languages that
(10:16):
come from this land, there's a lot of teachings and understandings that
I think can benefit all of humanity. And 2 spirit, and that middle
path is one of those ways, I think. So if you want to
be an ally, it's got to go further than just speaking it. We
gotta actually show up for each other and get to know each other.
(10:37):
After the break, we'll meet Jeremy's changemaker. This is Queer Joy,
celebrating the champions and changemakers of the 2024 PTP Pink Awards,
and I'm Daniel MacIvor. The 2024 PTP Pink Awards was made possible by
(11:00):
the generous support of our sponsors. And we are deeply grateful for the
generosity of our title sponsor, Deciem, The Abnormal Beauty Company. Thanks
to Sara Fromstein and the entire Deciem team.
Welcome back to Queer Joy. I'm Daniel MacIvor. And this is Jeremy Dutcher.
(11:21):
At the 2024 PTP Pink Awards. When I first moved to this place,
my mother, she said, now when you go, go meet the native people.
She's like, that's the first thing you do when you go somewhere new.
You go meet your new hosts. And so I started to look into
native organizations here in the city. Even just to see the name of
this organization on a poster is a statement of self determination that
(11:48):
we are here and that queer people, 2 spirit people, LGBT indigenous people,
have a place in our community. I heard this beautiful quote once.
It said, the place where discriminations meet is a dangerous place to live.
And so when we talk about people living at the intersection of queer
identity, of Indigenous identity, those are people that need a lot of support.
And this organization particularly has been a light. And so when I first
(12:12):
went to that organization, it was like the first week I moved here,
I was like in my early 20s. I was super nervous.
I knew one person in town, but I went to that organization and
there was about a staff of less than 10. And I was just
talking to the organization tonight. They have more than 80 staff now.
So this is a... Yeah. I don't wanna talk too much.
(12:36):
I wanna just invite them up. Please welcome tonight our representatives
from 2 spirit People of the First Nations. Give it up. 2 Spirited
People of the 1st Nations is a Tkaronto, or colonially Toronto,
based organization that describes itself as helping two spirited people
to nurture and grow within their sacred roles and celebrate their strengths
(12:56):
and to provide physical, emotional, mental and spiritual advocacy and support
to community members who are facing the effects of historic and ongoing
colonial violence so that they may thrive within their communities and nations.
Multidisciplinary 2 spirit artist Tyler J. Sloane spoke with 2 Spirited
People of the 1st Nations at their office in downtown Toronto. 0:13:17.2Denise
D. McLeod (13:17):
Hi, my name is Denise B. McLeod. I'm the Board President
of 2 Spirited People of the 1st Nations. I am Anishinaabe from Sagamok Anishnawbek
First Nations. I am Eagle Clan. I use she and her pronoun.
My name is Keith McCrady. I also go by Mahogany Makwa.
I'm from Biinjitiwaabik Zaaging Anishinaabek. I'm Ojibwe and Cree. I'm part
(13:41):
of the Bear Clan. And my role here at 2 Spirited People of
the 1st Nations is the executive director. I have no preferred pronouns,
which is very different than I go by all pronouns. It's a way
to honor me knowing that English isn't our chosen language. Tyler asked
Keith and Denise how they felt about Jeremy choosing 2 Spirited People of
the 1st Nations as his changemaker. Well, when I first heard this,
(14:04):
I was obviously quite excited. I'm actually a huge music fan,
so I was quite excited because I own their vinyl. But also one
of the key things for an organization is to have unrestricted funds,
and it's pretty important to be able to have access for self determination.
0:14:21.5Denise D. McLeod (14:20):
I know Jeremy from community, and I love their
music and also own their albums. And Jeremy is such a huge supporter
and very well spoken, outgoing advocate for 2 Spirited People and for the
Indigenous community as a whole. So Jeremy said something six or seven years
(14:42):
ago at this point, and it was, be ready for the Indigenous renaissance.
And I remember thinking like 1, yes, and 2, I used that sentence
so much when I was teaching and talking about how all of the
things I'm teaching you or all of the trauma that Indigenous peoples have
(15:02):
experienced, it's also, we're also thriving. We're also building and making
and creating. And Indigenous folks are often painted as we're very old time
or primitive, or we don't have the same skills to be artists as
the West. And Jeremy took all of the things that the West taught
(15:23):
them and blew it out of the water and made it...
The first album is so important. I'm not Mi'kmaq. I don't speak the
Mi'kmaq language. I know that Anishinaabe is under the same language umbrella,
but it feels, it felt new and exciting. I just think about that
time, really important time, where the renaissance is happening in this
(15:47):
Indigenous renaissance. That first album of Jeremy's that Denise is talking
about is 'Wolastoqiyik Lintuwakonawa', that Jeremy's website describes as
a post classical rearrangement of traditional music that Jeremy rediscovered
at the Canadian Museum of History from 1907. These were wax cylinders of
his ancestors singing forgotten songs of the Wolastoqey Nation. The Guardian
(16:09):
describes the album as avant garde neo opera. It was heralded internationally,
won Jeremy his first Polaris Prize, and set the stage for Jeremy working
with colonial perceived urban notions like opera, inside explorations of
his own ancestors and land based culture, and as Denise said,
blowing the old ideas out of the water. Keith had this to say
(16:30):
about Jeremy's two sided perspective. Finding ways to connect with the urban
community, but also still connect with the Indigenous community is a challenge.
And so, I'm really happy that someone like Jeremy could say,
you get to do whatever you want, be whoever you want.
You could pick things that you like of the Western world,
(16:51):
but you can still honor your own traditions and your own language and
your own values, so. So part of the Indigenous renaissance is embracing
what Indigenous people have called two eyed seeing, living inside Indigenous
knowledge and using what's useful from the colonization project to move
forward inside this system. And part of that moving forward is understanding
how two spiritedness exists inside the LGBTQ acronym. Not only is there
(17:16):
a question about reductiveness and false equivalencies, two spiritedness
is a broader idea than strictly sexuality or gender, as people also argue
transness is, and two spiritedness itself is a fluid idea. Denise had this
to say about her journey. 0:17:31.8Denise D. McLeod (17:29):
My understanding of
my own two spiritedness, it has been an evolution. I always knew that
I was queer and understood 2 spirit to be a role in community.
And I was, at the time when I started figuring out my gender
(17:51):
and my identity, my sexual identity, I knew that 2 spirit was
a role within community that I didn't want to pick up. That wasn't
my... I did not want to do that right away. And I was
like, I don't know if I'm ready for this responsibility. And also understanding
that 2 spirit means something different to everyone and that's okay.
(18:11):
Like there are no wrong teachings, there are no bad teachings.
There are only teachings. And so for me, I do define myself as
two spirited in a way that is more my sexuality based rather than
my gender. And also understanding that over the last 10 ish years,
there also have been other terms that have been started to be coined
(18:31):
in English to define the intricate relationship between indigeneity and
our queerness, that we have been told that it was always something to
be ashamed of or that it didn't exist prior to colonization when we
know that's absolutely incorrect. And I really enjoy that we are starting
(18:54):
to find different ways to identify ourselves as queer, gay, lesbian,
trans, indigenous people. As I said off the top, Jeremy was the first
champion to come on board with the Pink Awards. He was the first
to say yes. With his belief in us came confidence, and helped us
to realize a very special event, a very special moment of joy for
(19:15):
our community. Thanks for walking with us, Jeremy. Thanks to Amelia Moses
in Montreal and Tyler J. Sloane in Toronto. Please join us for our
next episode with warrior activist Latoya Nugent and her changemaker, Among
Friends. I'll leave the last words to Denise and Keith. This has been
Queer Joy. Thanks for listening. 0:19:45.0Denise D. McLeod (19:33):
I introduce
myself in the language so that our ancestors know that we are still
here. My government name is Denise McLeod and I am the Board President,
(19:57):
and I'm honored to share the stage with Keith, the Executive Director.
So I'm Keith and I'm really happy to be here. So since I've
been at this agency, I haven't really had a chance. It's been six
years and there's been a lot of growth and a lot of change
and I haven't had a chance to be proud. And so I'm very
(20:18):
proud and I'm proud of our community. I'm also proud to have people
to look up to like Jeremy who really understand what it takes to
be successful in a system that was built to make us fail.
I can't pretend that this was made for us. And we're gonna still
(20:41):
thrive, and we're gonna say, if you wanna work with us,
great. If you don't, just get out of the way. Right? 'Cause we're
really ready to do the work. And so I just appreciate everyone here
tonight that honors and respects that. Queer Joy is a production of Pink
(21:06):
Triangle Press.
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.