October 20, 2023 • 43 mins
When it comes to talking about "gun culture" in the US, it's time challenge our understanding and reshape the discourse. This week. hosts Kelly and JJ sat down with with David Joy, a North Carolina native, award-winning novelist, and gun owner. This episode is a deep dive into how some folks form a collective relationship with firearms, a connection rooted in hunting traditions yet challenged by the shifting landscape of gun laws and culture.
Together, we go beyond the polarizing narratives, confronting the militarization of gun culture, and the differing perspectives shaped by socio-economic backgrounds and geographical location. We shed light on how legal loopholes have allowed controversial weapons like ghost guns into the market, while also debunking myths surrounding gun laws and the NRA's role in gun reform, revealing the power of money in this debate. Lastly, we delve into the uncomfortable intersection of gun culture, gun reform, and white supremacy.
Further reading:
Gun Culture Is My Culture. And I Fear for What It Has Become (New York Times)
Guns in America (Time)
Many gun owners support gun control. So why don't they speak out? (NPR)
Guns, Lies, and Fear (Center for American Progress)
For more information on Brady, follow us on social media @Bradybuzz or visit our website at bradyunited.org.
Full transcripts and bibliographies of this episode are available at bradyunited.org/podcast.
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255.
In a crisis? Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a Crisis Counselor 24/7.
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells for their long-standing legal support
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is the legal disclaimer, where I tell you
that the views, thoughts andopinion shared on this podcast
belong solely to our guests andhosts, and not necessarily Brady
or Brady's affiliates.
Please note this podcastcontains discussions of violence
that some people may finddisturbing.
It's okay, we find itdisturbing too.
Hey, everybody, welcome back toanother episode of Red Glue and
(00:44):
Brady.
I'm one of your hosts, jj, andI'm Kelly, your other host, and
today, yet again, kelly hasbrought me a new friend who is
far cooler than me.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah.
So I was at a conferenceearlier this year in Asheville,
north Carolina, and that's whereI met our guest today, david
Joy, and he and I could not havemore different backgrounds.
He is a self-described mountainboy who lives in the country,
he owns guns, he carries guns.
I'm from the city and I don'town a gun at all.
(01:14):
And you know he's white, I'mblack, all these things right.
And so the way the narrative isaround gun violence prevention
and race in America, and evenwhether you live in the city or
the country, would have us betotally at odds, right, but
we're not.
And I think that interaction,that experience, at least for me
, was another reminder that,despite what the media tries to
(01:37):
say, despite what the NRA triesto say, despite what I might
even think and feel in terms ofwho is quote unquote someone I
can handle with or not, andthose things do not really
reflect the human experiencesthat we all have, which is that
we want to be safe, we want tobe able to live our lives
without the threat of gunviolence.
And so when I heard David speakabout his experiences growing
(01:59):
up with guns, his experiencesnow with guns and also the way
that he feels misrepresented bythe rhetoric from the NRA and
the culture I knew he had tocome on.
So glad that he agreed to do so.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I'm going to feel super corny saying this,
especially because David is anovelist I'm so a much better
writer than I am but he was anabsolute joy to have on the
podcast and I think, kelly, Ijust everything you just said,
breaking down how the imagesthat we have in our head about
who is for gun violenceprevention work, who is against
gun violence prevention workcompletely wrong.
I had.
The only way to fix this andmake this better is for us to
(02:33):
keep talking to one another.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I'm David Joy.
I'm from North Carolina and themountains of North Carolina and
my profession is that I'm anovelist, but really means I
just try to get by doing aslittle as I can.
But yeah, for the most partthat's me.
I'm born and raised in NorthCarolina.
12th generation NorthCarolinian make my living as a
writer.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I was going to say and like multiple award-winning,
very well-respected writer too,lest our listeners think that
you're dropping like ChickTracks in people's houses and
stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, like Hell in a man with the back of my truck.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
As someone who loves creative writing, I feel like
trying to write a book is sohard, so I just I would need to
brag on you, even if you'regoing to be humble, because that
is quite a feat to do it morethan one.
In addition to writing novels,you've written other pieces, and
in a piece you wrote for theNew York Times identified
yourself as a member of Americangun culture, and so I'm
wondering if you could telllisteners a little bit about
(03:28):
your relationship to guns andgun ownership.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah, yeah, I grew up , you know.
I really can't remember a timein my life where guns weren't
present.
So as a very little kid, youknow, my father had the
traditional gun rack on the wallbehind the television and kept
rifles and a couple of shotgunsup there.
He was never big intocollecting guns or had lots of
guns, but he'd hunted all hislife and so most of my
(03:54):
relationship with guns and gunculture was rooted in a
tradition of hunting.
And that's kind of how I grewup and that's really how I
operate now, you know before Ileft to come here.
I was hanging out in a gun shop15 minutes ago.
My best friend is a gunsmith.
I own lots of guns.
(04:15):
Guns interest me, but most ofthe guns that interest me and,
like I said, my relationshipwith firearms, going back has
always been deeply rooted inhunting.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And I think that that's really intriguing to our
listeners.
We've been privileged enough tohave a lot of authors come on
the podcast, and we've had a lotof gun owners come on the
podcast.
One of the things that I thinkgets distilled in your work
especially in the New York Timespiece that Kelly detailed is, I
think you really go into theculture in a way that we haven't
discussed on this podcastbefore, which is the many
(04:46):
different uses that they are andthat folks can have a positive
and a negative relationship withthem, maybe simultaneously.
Yeah, yeah.
But it can be a reallycomplicated feeling for somebody
who still owns them.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know, I think there
was a cultural shift that tookplace that for me, I can, in my
mind, it's very easy to lookback and see.
You know the point in time thatthat took place as not
coincidental, as root and cause.
You know I think that there was.
There was very much a shift ingun culture that took place
(05:19):
after 9-11.
For me, it boils down toIslamophobia, you know,
xenophobia that they're comingfor us, and all of a sudden
there was this shift to wheregun culture became militarized
in a way that it had not beenbefore.
And so I think one of thethings for me when I'm talking
(05:39):
about gun culture is recognizingthat the culture that I grew up
in you know how I grew uparound firearms is not something
that a 20-year-old kid wouldeven understand at this point in
time.
So the only gun culture thatyou know a 20-year-old kid knows
at this point is a postman 11gun culture, which I think is
(06:03):
very different.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So even you know like a Gen Z or a Gen Alpha kid kind
of growing up same town as you,you know same, like all things
being equal.
But just like that, the benefitof time and history has kind of
altered that kind of theirrelationship.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean you know and I think youknow it wasn't that the types
of weapons that are beingmarketed pretty much solely at
this point, the guns thatthey're pushing are a very
specific type of gun.
It's not that those guns didnot exist in the before, because
they most assuredly did, butthat was not what you tended to
(06:39):
see, even if you think aboutlike something silly, like Bass
Pro Shots or Cabela's and likeback in the 90s they used to
send, like this, one catalog ayear that was like the size of
the yellow pages, everythingthat they carried had all the
guns that they carry and youwould look through that well,
you would never encounter typesof things that are on the front
(07:00):
of the small newspaper insertsthat they used to advertise
those places.
There was just a.
There was a very real anddefinitive shift that took place
in the early 2000s and I thinkit's hard to deny why that shift
took place.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Could you walk us through, for those of us who
aren't familiar sort of what wasthe culture like that you
experienced when you grew up,versus what is today?
What is what are in thosecatalogs?
What are they showing?
What are they saying?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, you know, I think that for a whole lot of
people you always you had alwaysgrown up around guns.
You were, you knew not to touchthem.
You know there, you weretrained with them.
But it was more like I said itwas, it was hunting related and
so, like, the very first gunsthat kids always got were like
(07:51):
single shot 22 rifles or singleshot shotguns, and there was
this stage in development whereit was just all tied to hunting.
And that's not to say thatthere wasn't recreational
shooting as well, because therewas, but we weren't.
The things that you saw, thethings that you held, the things
that were in the home, were allprimarily shotguns of different
(08:17):
types and bolt-action.
Right, it wasn't AR-15s, youknow, it wasn't even.
There weren't even lots ofpistols.
I don't think and that's not tosay that there were that
culture was there as well.
I think that there wereespecially people shooting
recreationally with pistols, buteven just you didn't see that
as much.
It was still very much tied toa sporting culture.
(08:41):
Just that's the shift.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And do you recall having that?
There was this conversationabout Second Amendment or Second
Amendment extremism.
Was that even something thatwas kind of floating around in
gun enthusiast circles, or wasit something that wasn't?
I feel like the AR-15 hasbecome such an emblem of that
that I think that it's changedthe conversation.
But I'm just curious if that'sbeen your experience.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
So if I think back of early media for me the only
time as a kid it's funny thethings that wind up sticking in
your memory as far as bigcultural events that you watch
take place on the news.
So I can't remember Ruby Ridge,but I can remember the
conversations that were centeredaround Ruby Ridge and I can
(09:26):
remember kind of a glance intosome of what that culture might
look like through that.
But no, not in the same way.
And I would say again, it's notthat it did not exist.
It did exist, but it did notexist at the level that it does
now.
It was not riding behind aminivan and they have a stick
(09:49):
figure family on the back andit's different types of assault
weapons.
It's not an AR-15 bumpersticker that says assault life
Like it wasn't this culturalphenomenon that it is now.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
It's almost become a dog whistle for other things too
that have been culturally tiedto it Totally absolutely, and
you told us you live in NorthCarolina.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
You've been there for generations in your family.
I'm wondering obviously you'resituated where you're situated.
So this might be an unfairquestion, but when you look at
gun culture today, do you see anoverarching gun culture or does
it differ, depending, perhaps,on where you live, if you live
in a city or the country, or ifyou're rich or poor?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I think that there's a whole lot of things going on.
So, for instance, I mentionedthat my best friend is a
gunsmith.
You know that 20 minutes ago Iwas sitting in a gun store.
He's someone who pretty muchonly wants to work on old guns,
like that's what interests him.
He has no interest in ARs.
Most of the people who come inthere don't have any interest in
(10:53):
them.
I think the thing that gets lostfrom inside gun culture.
You know where all thedifferent people are, but from
the outside gun culture onlylooks one way and it never looks
like me.
It never looks like somebodywho is actively looking for gun
reform, who actively wants tohave those conversations.
(11:16):
It never looks like somebodywho has no interest, desire to
ever own or shoot an AR-15.
Don't even think thatpersonally.
Don't think that they shouldexist.
That type of person from theoutside does not.
You know I don't exist, right?
You know, if you were to asksomebody from the outside what
(11:38):
gun culture looks like, I thinkit's rarely somebody who would
entertain discussions of gunreform and the truth is that I
think that they actually make upthe vast majority of gun owners
in this country.
One of the biggest things thathappened after I wrote that
essay for New York Timesmagazine was I just had all
(12:01):
these people reaching out to me,thinking me for the things that
I'd said, because they felt thesame way and they knew that it
was a voice that had not beengiven a stage.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I'm curious, because you're definitely not the first
person that I've heard say that,and as somebody who now I just
move back to my hometown, so nowI interact with a lot more gun
owners than I did when I livedout here in DC Like, I've heard
this conversation a lot, butthen when I hear repeatedly,
though, from gun owners is thatpeople aren't sharing this as
publicly right.
They're not sharing it outsideof their circle, and I'm
(12:34):
wondering if there's a reasonwhy folks aren't sharing it, or
are they and we're just notlistening the right way?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
I think it's.
You know, sensibility is notsexy, right?
Like the only thing that sellsis extremism from either side,
like whoever screams the loudestgets handed the microphone
We've and that's another hugecultural shift is that as a
country, we've lost the abilityto entertain any type of civil
(13:03):
discourse.
You know the only thing, theonly people that we give the
stage are the people who arescreaming at the tops of their
lungs, and so I think that thereare people who are having these
conversations and who arewilling to make those types of
statements, and nobody wants tolisten to it.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And I'm wondering.
It sounds like when you say gunculture from the outside but
doesn't look like you.
Who do you?
How do I say this?
How do you feel that you'vebeen or you are?
People who think like you aremisrepresented by people in the
gun violence prevention movementand by people who would say
they may not be, but who wouldsay it's claimed that they're
(13:46):
speaking for gun owners.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So people who are, you know, trying to think of the
right word.
I would be called a fud by gunculture, and that's meant as a
derogatory term.
It's meant as someone who youknow, who only wants firearms
for hunting.
You know, and that's not thetruth.
I have a firearm on my personas we're having this
(14:08):
conversation.
I think that if someone wants todefend their home, defend their
person, they should absolutelybe able to own firearms.
But I think that we havelaunched the way that we've
allowed that industry to wigglearound legalities at the expense
of human life for profit, Ithink is disgusting.
(14:29):
And so, from the outside, Ijust don't think that very many
people who aren't gun owners,who are actively seeking gun
reform, realize that they haveallies within the gun owner
community, that there are lotsof people who are willing to
entertain those conversations.
Even something like somethingthat we get that gets thrown
(14:53):
around all the time is waitingperiods.
You know, I don't know how manyfirearms I've bought this year.
I would say I'm bad to like,buy and sell, but let's just say
it was three or four let's sayit was three.
If you had told me that I had Idon't know pick a waiting period
, name it 30 days, 60 days, 90days, I don't care, I really
(15:17):
don't, and you and I are goingto have this conversation now
forever.
The majority of people at thatgun shop that I'm always in
would not care.
I think that if you need a gunright this very second, you've
got something else going onright and that's probably not
going to be the thing that'sgoing to help that situation.
Like, if you walk into a storeit's like I need a gun, I need a
(15:39):
gun right this minute.
I need it for this reason.
But so what I'm getting at isthat I think that there are
parts of that conversation thatget talked about often where,
from the outside, you wouldthink there aren't any gun
owners who are with us on this,and I think that there are a
whole lot of gun owners whowould love to have meaningful
(16:03):
conversations about whatsensible gun reform could look
like in this country.
So one of the things thathappened after I wrote that
essay was that so many peoplereached out to me wishing that
there was an organizationoutside of the NRA that
represented gun owners.
(16:23):
And I thought, the more I'vethought about it, I think I
could really see something likethat gaining foot to where it
was fuds like me, you know whereit was people who you know, who
were wanting to have theseconversations and who were
wanting to sit down at the table.
And when you tell me somethingthat makes sense to you, maybe
(16:47):
it doesn't make sense to me.
I know for a fact that you andI are not going to agree on
everything with regards to gunreform, but I know that if we
sit at that table and we sit atthat table from a place of
mutual respect and where we'reboth trying to accomplish
something we're going to findsome middle ground.
You know, what I would love tosee is for a community to take
(17:13):
its voice back.
The NRA does not speak for me.
The NRA does not speak for themajority of gun owners, you know
.
But they do right.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Their money makes it seem like they do.
They've got the biggestmegaphone.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, and they do.
At the end of the day, you know, the things that they say are
what become my voice, because Idon't have one, you know, on
that issue.
But I would love to see sometype of organization you know
start up like.
But as far as things that youcan do, you know, I think, just
(17:47):
recognizing that there areplenty of people who are willing
to entertain that conversationand to not lose hope, because
the only thing you're hearingare people who you know, who
don't see any room for change.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Could we take a second?
So you said FUD.
I've never heard that before.
What is that?
An acronym?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
or no, it's Elmer FUD , so like pictures.
Oh, so they use.
So Elmer FUD.
You know walking around with ashotgun, I'm going to get you.
You ask when we'll have it.
The term FUD is thrown aroundto represent, like I said, it's
a derogatory term and the reasonit's derogatory or used in that
(18:31):
sense is because it's typicallypeople like me who are
entertaining.
You know conversations about gunreform.
You know the people that arehard and fast.
Second amendment they don'twant to give anything, they
don't think that anything shouldbe limited.
That's a very difficultconversation for me, and part of
(18:54):
the reason is that you'realready, there's already piles
of things that I cannot own.
Right Like a hard and faststance to the second amendment
in my mind would be that if Iwanted, if I was capable of
funding nuclear weapons, that Ishould be able to have them,
that I should be able to haveanything.
And there are already piles ofthings that I'm not allowed to
(19:16):
own.
I'm not allowed to own shortbarreled shotguns, I'm not
allowed to own short barreledrifles, I'm not allowed to own
machine guns, or at least Iwould have to jump through a
whole lot more hoops if I wasgoing to own, and so what I'm
getting at is that the verypeople who are arguing that this
(19:38):
should be an unlimited rightare already working from a
stance of being limited, likethere are already things that
you can own.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I think the argument in response, though, from some
folks or at least that I'veheard, or that Kelly and I get
yelled at on the internet aboutis that those limits shouldn't
exist.
You know so that they'realready working under a limited
and unfair system, but I thinkthat that kind of gets to.
What you're pointing at is thatthere's a lot to unpack that's
already present in there.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Well, I think what that gets to is that nobody in
their right mind would agreethat you should operate from a
system of zero limitation, thatif somebody like Elon Musk, who
quite literally does have themoney to fund something like a
nuclear program if he wanted to,could do that, like that's the
(20:28):
other side of the argument, likeif there's no limit, there's no
limits, and I don't think thatvery many people, very many
sensible people, would say yeah,that's what we should have.
And I think when it gets tothat point, it's very easy to
dismiss that argument entirelyand realize that you have to
operate from some type oflimitation.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And you mentioned that you, even though people
like to say, oh, you only wantguns for hunting, that you also
have guns for defense, justcertain types of guns, and I'm
wondering how do you weigh yourpersonal calculus when deciding
I want to keep a gun for selfdefense, because that's
something to your point?
We don't necessarily have thoseconversations all the time and
(21:12):
I'm just curious about if you'recomfortable, how you sort of
decided you're going to get afirearm.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I think the decision for me boils down to the world
that we live in now and it boilsdown to my personal history of
having experienced gun trauma,having a gun put to my head when
I was a kid.
That was something thatabsolutely altered every, that
altered something very deeplyabout my personality, which is
(21:40):
to say that when I walk into aWal-Mart, I know where every
exit is in the Wal-Mart in mytown, like it's ingrained in my
head.
I know the things that I wouldlikely try to get behind if I
could not get to an exit.
My brain is constantly workinglike that because it's had to in
the past and I think, knowinghow responsible I am with
(22:04):
firearms, I think it became.
It just became something that Iwanted to have, and so the
majority of the time I carry, Ido carry a pistol with me.
When it comes to the types ofweapons that I like to own or
that interest me, and whythey're not, because the other
side that is a very legitimateargument is that an AR-15 could
(22:27):
be used for all types ofsensible things, and it can.
You could most certainly havefun shooting them recreationally
.
You could most certainlychamber them in a caliber to
where it's a very viable huntingoption.
You could most.
There are lots of things.
Whatever it is, we talk aboutARs, and we talk about ARs for a
(22:48):
reason, which is that, time andtime again, that tends to be
the rifle that's used in massshooter events.
For me, it becomes a matter ofrecognizing a very serious
problem in this country,thinking that we have to try to
do something to rectify that,and if it means taking away
(23:12):
certain types of weapons andlimiting those types of weapons,
then that's something that, forme, makes sense.
I would be up for areclassification of those
weapons, like a reclassificationof those weapons under Title II
, so that they're under the samethings as short barrel rifles
or short barrel shotguns, sothat, yes, you can own it, but
(23:35):
you're gonna have to jumpthrough a lot more hoops to do
it, which means that I can'twalk into a store and buy an
AR-15 and a couple thousandrounds of 223 and a bucket
marketed as a freedom bucket andthen walk outside the door and
mow down a supermarket.
I think the ease with which wecan buy weapons in this country
(23:58):
and weapons of that caliber inthis country is disgusting.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Do you think and so I'm just curious, because we've
talked about a few things nowwaiting periods,
reclassification of kind of Iwould say like high capacity
firearms what are some otherreforms that you think that
folks or at least gun owners whoare like you would be likely to
go for?
That again, maybe the gunman'sprevention movement isn't maybe
(24:25):
reaching it too appropriately.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I think a major thing is a failure on the ATF.
It stopped letting thesemanufacturers wiggle around
legalities.
Like you have laws in place,and so you think about a weapon
like the shock wave, which is asclassified as AOW as any other
weapon which you look at.
(24:49):
You shoot one.
You know for a fact that it's ashort barreled shotgun, right,
and they're figuring out a wayto classify the short barreled
shotgun as illegal.
The AOW is not.
They found a way to wigglearound legalities to sell
something that should be that isillegal.
You think about, you know.
(25:10):
So one of the big things that'sbeen playing out recently is
braces on your pistols, right,and the reason that's a big deal
is because the minute you put abrace on it, it's not a pistol,
right, it's a short barreledrifle.
Well, stop fucking letting themjump around, right, like you
know what they're trying to do.
(25:31):
And that's the type of thingthat makes no sense to me.
It makes no sense to me why youwould allow a product like a
bump stock or a product like anecho trick, why the ATF is
allowing products that solepurpose is to increase the rate
of fire in semi-automaticweapons.
Why is that allowed?
(25:52):
And that's what I mean bythings that are like that is
lunacy, and that's not a matterof new laws.
That's a matter of stop lettingthem wiggle around laws that
already exist.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
I think like a blatant example.
The one that crushes me isghost guns.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
As a whole.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
It's not a gun, but like it's not an IKEA table,
Like I know what it is.
We all know what it is.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Everyone knows what they are, but legally yeah, and
those are the sorts of things Imean, sometimes to your point,
when we have these laws.
A lot of times when I talk topeople and these tend to be
people who aren't in gun cultthey think we have more laws
than we already have.
I don't know if that's theexperience within circles of
people who do own guns, but alot of people think, oh, but
(26:39):
there are universal, there arewaiting periods or there are
these laws and then you tellthem there are universal
background checks.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, so these laws do have teeth.
If you get caught with a gun,yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
And then I tell people like, oh no, ghost guns
are not.
And then they're shocked, andso I wonder if some of it is
just sort of clarifying some ofthese myths that we have laws,
there's a lot of things, or thatwe're enforcing the laws
effectively yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah Well, like, for instance, me, I have a concealed
carry permit, so when Ipurchase a gun, I have to fill
out paperwork on it, just likeyou would in North Carolina for
anything else.
But he does not have to call ina background check, which to me
is problematic, right, Becauseyou're assuming that nothing has
(27:22):
happened since that concealedcarry was issued.
I may have a restraining orderfor domestic violence, which
should be a trigger, right?
That should be something thatlimits my ability to buy another
firearm, Like the system thatwe have doesn't even function,
and I think that on both sidesnobody knows what's going on,
(27:43):
and the politicians mostassuredly don't.
They think that it's cute toput an AR-15 pen on the lapel of
a suit and that it meanssomething.
Again, it's disgusting.
You know what has happened inthis country and I don't.
You know that buddy of mine.
He's not the kind of person whowould talk with you, and what I
(28:04):
mean by that is he's old andmountain people don't talk to
nobody.
But I truly wish that he would,because he has witnessed first
hand what every aspect oflegislation has, how it has
affected things since he startedthat gun shop in the 80s, and
so I think that it's hard tohave conversations about.
(28:28):
You know the legislation thatdoes exist, because the average
person does not know it.
I think it's also becomes veryhard to have conversations about
firearms because people whodon't know firearms, they don't
know it.
So, like when you start talkingabout firearms, terms get thrown
(28:48):
around and the minute theterminology is wrong that's one
of the things that they love tolatch on to right.
It's like well, what do youmean by that?
Do you know what I've saidbefore?
That I think that if apresident did nothing but codify
language around firearms, thatwould be a major accomplishment,
to where, suddenly, we wereable to have a real conversation
(29:12):
and be talking about the samethings.
You know we're not operatingfrom any type of dictionary.
The terms get thrown aroundloosely and the truth is we
don't know what we're talkingabout half the time and all of
that is working very muchagainst us.
And on the other end of that,you have a whole lot of money
(29:35):
constantly trying to make thatconversation more difficult.
You know, if you remember whenyou and I met and we were on
that panel and one of thequestions at the end was whether
or not it had to do with moneyand the answer that was given
was that no, I don't think ithas to do with money.
And then they asked mesomething after and it was like
(29:58):
it absolutely has to do withmoney.
You know, everything in thiscountry has to do with money,
and that's what makes it so damndifficult is that you can be
sensible and you can learn goodthings, but you're up against an
unfathomable amount of money.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And that kind of brings me to another thing in
addition to money.
So much this conversation.
From what I've experienced isfear, and one of the things that
comes up a lot is obviouslythere's some people that are
just cynical actors, but thereare a lot of people who are just
genuinely, for a lot of goodreasons.
The world is scary in a lot ofways and are just trying to
grapple with.
How do I protect myself?
(30:36):
And you've written a lot aboutfear and relationships and I'm
wondering the role that you seefear playing, whether it's in
the misrepresentations aroundgun culture or the conversations
we have about policy or reform.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I think I just got off of.
I had a novel come out about amonth, about two months ago now,
but so I was on tour for thatnovel for about a month and a
half, and that novel primarilywrestles with issues of white
supremacy.
I was in a conversation withsomeone, though, and a woman,
and we were talking about, likeI think, that white.
(31:15):
I think that the burden of thatconversation rests solely on
white people, on white America,to be having that conversation,
and I was talking about that,and a woman blurted out she said
but what if it gets you killed?
And I had a couple of differentresponses, which was one the
(31:37):
danger that I have to live within a moment like that is
incomparable to the danger thata black American has to live
with 24 hours a day.
So suck it up, sally.
But at the end of the day, Irecognized that she had a very
legitimate and real fear, whichis that she felt that if she
(32:00):
were to stand up publicly and,let's say, to go to a BLM march
or something, that she would beplacing herself in a very real
danger of being killed.
And it was hard to wrestlearound that For me.
I refuse to let fear ever be anobstacle with righteousness, so
(32:23):
if I know what the right thingto do is, then fear can never be
a limitation of that, and Ithink, in the end, what I told
her was I said that theconversations that need to be
had don't have to be had onstreet corners.
I said they need to be takenplace at the kitchen table and
on the front porch with yourfriends and your family, and
(32:45):
that's the truth of it.
But ultimately, what I was leftwith was just this is exactly
what you're talking about, whichis that for so many Americans
right now, they live in aconstant state of fear and panic
that at any moment somethingcould happen and it could.
I can't imagine being a parent.
I don't have children.
I can't fathom what it would belike to load that child up onto
(33:10):
a school bus every morning orto drop them off in front of a
school and know that at anymoment something could happen.
My partner works at auniversity.
I'm sitting across from thatuniversity right now.
I would say that it's only amatter of time before they have
it, have some type of event takeplace at that university.
And yeah, I think that for themajority of Americans it's
(33:34):
become so second nature to usthat it's just expected we could
end this phone call and all ofus look at our phones and there
have been another shootingbecause it happens with that
type of frequency.
It also makes.
That's what makes it sodifficult to entertain this
conversation Like I think aboutthat essay for the New York
(33:55):
Times magazine.
We worked on that for nearly ayear and a half and it was
because every time we would getinto edits another event would
take place, the conversationwould shift.
It was like trying to holdwater in your hands.
It was constantly moving andslipping through your fingers
and you never could pin it downbecause the conversation was
(34:15):
constantly changing.
You think about a moment likethe man walking into that
supermarket in Buffalo, new Yorkand what took place on that day
and within a week nobody wastalking about Buffalo, new York.
And there's multiple reasonsthey weren't.
For one it was because it hadtargeted a black community and
(34:38):
it was easy enough to move on.
But why was it easy enough tomove on?
What happened that next week?
It'll be the vaulties, that'sexactly right.
The conversation happens withsuch frequency, those events
happen with such frequency thatit becomes impossible.
It's constantly putting us inthe ditch.
(34:59):
Or you think about somebodylike Stephen Pat and you think
about what that conversationlooked like following Stephen
Pat, and then all of a sudden,we're somewhere else again.
It's just constantly.
Those events are running theconversation into the ditch over
and over again and neverallowing us to maintain any kind
(35:22):
of direct course.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
It's interesting too, because when you mentioned
before, the lay of the land hasbecome that you have two very
loud opposing sides and then themajority of folks in between is
that I think the little avatarshave been created too of what
somebody looks like, who's forwhat somebody who looks like is
against.
I think earlier when youmentioned you said something
about how gun owners don't looklike you, and you were referring
to holding the values that youhold or having its opinion.
(35:47):
But it's interesting because ifI think of what somebody who's
like a gun bouncer mentionedadvocate in DC thinks a gun
owner looks like, you're theavatar of it.
You're a guy, you're a ruralsouthern guy with a beard,
you're white, our folks can'tsee it, but you got a lovely hat
Like.
People were like yeah, ofcourse, that's what a gun owner
looks like.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
It makes it difficult , I think, then to then have a
conversation, because then folkslike your friend who's a
gunsmith, who I'd want to talkto, one culturally probably just
don't want to talk to astranger, but then also two very
few people want to go into aconversation where they think
they've already been prejudgedand found wanting and they don't
want a conversation wherethey're just going to get yelled
(36:29):
.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I think this is true of themajority of conversations that
need to be taken place in thiscountry.
We are an air conditionedculture who refuses to be made
uncomfortable and I'm especiallyspeaking about white America,
which is to say that we refuseto be made uncomfortable for any
(36:50):
extended period of time and Ithink that that's something that
we are going to have to address, Like we're going to have to
start laying the ugly out on thetable and entertaining very
difficult conversations andremain uncomfortable for very
(37:10):
long, extended periods of timeIf we're going to make headway
on any of the issues that arereally ripping this country
apart.
And the saddest part of thatand when I lose hope the most is
when I look at the people thatwe elect, and this is a crowd.
I truly think that this isalong both sides.
(37:33):
These are people who it is.
It is.
You know it's pageantry.
None of them are having realconversations.
You know it's all theatrics,it's all the show, and I just
think about how sad that makesme.
The only time I'm ever hopefulis when I spend time with people
(37:54):
who are younger than me.
So, after the school shootingsthat are that first school
shooting that UNC Chapel Hillearlier this year.
You know they had another eventa couple weeks after that.
I don't know, Did either of yousee the front page of that
school?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
All of the text messages.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yeah, Text messages of students during that event
and one of the students said Icouldn't believe how unprepared
my teachers were.
And a teacher who I know, aprofessor that I know at the
university I'm sitting across,who I'm friends with, hosted
(38:35):
something on Facebook about howdisturbing he found that was
something that was expected ofhim.
And what I told him is I saidyou're talking about a
generation who, at every levelof education, has had active
shooter training and who has hadteachers who they knew had
(38:58):
active shooter training.
So why would you not expectthis kid to carry the
expectation that you'd thatyou'd have?
Of course, of course they'regoing to think that, but what
I'm getting at is that you'vegot an entire generation of kids
who have grown up not kneelingin the middle of a hallway
against the lockers, pray that atornado don't knock the windows
(39:20):
out, who are being taught tobarricade doors so that they
don't get shot and who live witha very real fear of that.
I find it hard to believe thatgeneration is not going to, is
not going to, make some very bigshifts and I think part of the
scrambling that we're seeing onso many levels, you know, with
(39:41):
book bands and this, and that is, this last grasp for power,
because we're a country that isat a fracture point.
Something has to give, and I dofind hope in a generation who
is fed up.
You know, I don't think that youcan have a conversation about
(40:02):
gun culture and gun reformwithout also having very real
conversations about Americancapitalism and white supremacy.
You know, all of these thingsare walking hand in hand and I
think that makes it verydifficult to untangle.
I don't think that we talkenough about gun culture and
(40:22):
race.
You know I don't think that wetalk enough about gun laws and
white supremacy in this country.
I think when most people thinkmilitia, you know they're
thinking about militias thatthat were developed, you know,
to fight the British.
They're most assuredly notthinking about militias whose
primary fear were were revoltsby, you know, people enslaved.
(40:46):
That's where those laws comefrom.
You know all of this isconnected.
All of it is deeply connected,and it's deeply connected in a
system that was founded upon andperpetuated by white supremacy
and where profits were alwaysthe driving factor.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
And even you know, when I think militia, I grew up
in Michigan, so I think Michiganmilitia, you know like that's
where, which is a whole form ofextremism today.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
So and then tied in two with that race conversation
is also that rural and urbandivide too.
And then how folks like do youfire arms ownership and you race
within those two differentcontexts?
as well because that's so tiedto then, to class and everything
else.
Just love to have you come back.
Or we should do a book club foryour book, because I do say
it's fiction for our listeners,but I think it distills a lot of
(41:40):
.
I honestly think sometimesfiction is one of the best ways
we can do this, because itdoesn't feel like you're
directly confronting orattacking people with that
uncomfortable feeling, but youdo have to unpack all of these
things through humanrelationships.
So it's a, I think, a muchlighter lift for most people and
has a heavier impact.
And where can folks find you andyour work if they listen to
(42:02):
this?
And we're like.
We like him we need more.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
So my books you can find anywhere.
But you know, and if you justwanted to read that piece that
was in New York Times Magazine,you know if you search my name
and gun it would probably pop up.
But you know I maintainInstagram and Twitter and all of
that.
But yeah, the you know my workas far as the books, so you can
(42:24):
find them wherever books you'resold Perfect.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I'll link to them in the description of the episode.
Yeah and again, thank you somuch.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Thank you, so much Thank you, thank y'all.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Hey want to share with the podcast.
Listeners can now get in touchwith us here at Red Blue and
Brady via phone or text message.
We call or text us at480-744-3452 with your thoughts.
Questions concerns ideas, catpictures, whatever.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Thanks for listening.
As always, brady's lifesavingwork in Congress, the courts and
communities across the countryis made possible thanks to you.
For more information on Bradyor how to get involved in the
fight against gun violence,please like and subscribe to the
podcast.
Get in touch with us atBradyUnitedorg or on social at
Brady Buzz.
Be brave and remember.
(43:12):
Take action, not size.
This is the legal disclaimer, where I tell you
that the views, thoughts andopinion shared on this podcast
belong solely to our guests andhosts, and not necessarily Brady
or Brady's affiliates.
Please note this podcastcontains discussions of violence
that some people may finddisturbing.
It's okay, we find itdisturbing too.
Hey, everybody, welcome back toanother episode of Red Glue and
(00:44):
Brady.
I'm one of your hosts, jj, andI'm Kelly, your other host, and
today, yet again, kelly hasbrought me a new friend who is
far cooler than me.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah.
So I was at a conferenceearlier this year in Asheville,
north Carolina, and that's whereI met our guest today, david
Joy, and he and I could not havemore different backgrounds.
He is a self-described mountainboy who lives in the country,
he owns guns, he carries guns.
I'm from the city and I don'town a gun at all.
(01:14):
And you know he's white, I'mblack, all these things right.
And so the way the narrative isaround gun violence prevention
and race in America, and evenwhether you live in the city or
the country, would have us betotally at odds, right, but
we're not.
And I think that interaction,that experience, at least for me
, was another reminder that,despite what the media tries to
(01:37):
say, despite what the NRA triesto say, despite what I might
even think and feel in terms ofwho is quote unquote someone I
can handle with or not, andthose things do not really
reflect the human experiencesthat we all have, which is that
we want to be safe, we want tobe able to live our lives
without the threat of gunviolence.
And so when I heard David speakabout his experiences growing
(01:59):
up with guns, his experiencesnow with guns and also the way
that he feels misrepresented bythe rhetoric from the NRA and
the culture I knew he had tocome on.
So glad that he agreed to do so.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I'm going to feel super corny saying this,
especially because David is anovelist I'm so a much better
writer than I am but he was anabsolute joy to have on the
podcast and I think, kelly, Ijust everything you just said,
breaking down how the imagesthat we have in our head about
who is for gun violenceprevention work, who is against
gun violence prevention workcompletely wrong.
I had.
The only way to fix this andmake this better is for us to
(02:33):
keep talking to one another.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I'm David Joy.
I'm from North Carolina and themountains of North Carolina and
my profession is that I'm anovelist, but really means I
just try to get by doing aslittle as I can.
But yeah, for the most partthat's me.
I'm born and raised in NorthCarolina.
12th generation NorthCarolinian make my living as a
writer.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I was going to say and like multiple award-winning,
very well-respected writer too,lest our listeners think that
you're dropping like ChickTracks in people's houses and
stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, like Hell in a man with the back of my truck.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
As someone who loves creative writing, I feel like
trying to write a book is sohard, so I just I would need to
brag on you, even if you'regoing to be humble, because that
is quite a feat to do it morethan one.
In addition to writing novels,you've written other pieces, and
in a piece you wrote for theNew York Times identified
yourself as a member of Americangun culture, and so I'm
wondering if you could telllisteners a little bit about
(03:28):
your relationship to guns andgun ownership.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah, yeah, I grew up , you know.
I really can't remember a timein my life where guns weren't
present.
So as a very little kid, youknow, my father had the
traditional gun rack on the wallbehind the television and kept
rifles and a couple of shotgunsup there.
He was never big intocollecting guns or had lots of
guns, but he'd hunted all hislife and so most of my
(03:54):
relationship with guns and gunculture was rooted in a
tradition of hunting.
And that's kind of how I grewup and that's really how I
operate now, you know before Ileft to come here.
I was hanging out in a gun shop15 minutes ago.
My best friend is a gunsmith.
I own lots of guns.
(04:15):
Guns interest me, but most ofthe guns that interest me and,
like I said, my relationshipwith firearms, going back has
always been deeply rooted inhunting.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And I think that that's really intriguing to our
listeners.
We've been privileged enough tohave a lot of authors come on
the podcast, and we've had a lotof gun owners come on the
podcast.
One of the things that I thinkgets distilled in your work
especially in the New York Timespiece that Kelly detailed is, I
think you really go into theculture in a way that we haven't
discussed on this podcastbefore, which is the many
(04:46):
different uses that they are andthat folks can have a positive
and a negative relationship withthem, maybe simultaneously.
Yeah, yeah.
But it can be a reallycomplicated feeling for somebody
who still owns them.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know, I think there
was a cultural shift that tookplace that for me, I can, in my
mind, it's very easy to lookback and see.
You know the point in time thatthat took place as not
coincidental, as root and cause.
You know I think that there was.
There was very much a shift ingun culture that took place
(05:19):
after 9-11.
For me, it boils down toIslamophobia, you know,
xenophobia that they're comingfor us, and all of a sudden
there was this shift to wheregun culture became militarized
in a way that it had not beenbefore.
And so I think one of thethings for me when I'm talking
(05:39):
about gun culture is recognizingthat the culture that I grew up
in you know how I grew uparound firearms is not something
that a 20-year-old kid wouldeven understand at this point in
time.
So the only gun culture thatyou know a 20-year-old kid knows
at this point is a postman 11gun culture, which I think is
(06:03):
very different.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So even you know like a Gen Z or a Gen Alpha kid kind
of growing up same town as you,you know same, like all things
being equal.
But just like that, the benefitof time and history has kind of
altered that kind of theirrelationship.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean you know and I think youknow it wasn't that the types
of weapons that are beingmarketed pretty much solely at
this point, the guns thatthey're pushing are a very
specific type of gun.
It's not that those guns didnot exist in the before, because
they most assuredly did, butthat was not what you tended to
(06:39):
see, even if you think aboutlike something silly, like Bass
Pro Shots or Cabela's and likeback in the 90s they used to
send, like this, one catalog ayear that was like the size of
the yellow pages, everythingthat they carried had all the
guns that they carry and youwould look through that well,
you would never encounter typesof things that are on the front
(07:00):
of the small newspaper insertsthat they used to advertise
those places.
There was just a.
There was a very real anddefinitive shift that took place
in the early 2000s and I thinkit's hard to deny why that shift
took place.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Could you walk us through, for those of us who
aren't familiar sort of what wasthe culture like that you
experienced when you grew up,versus what is today?
What is what are in thosecatalogs?
What are they showing?
What are they saying?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, you know, I think that for a whole lot of
people you always you had alwaysgrown up around guns.
You were, you knew not to touchthem.
You know there, you weretrained with them.
But it was more like I said itwas, it was hunting related and
so, like, the very first gunsthat kids always got were like
(07:51):
single shot 22 rifles or singleshot shotguns, and there was
this stage in development whereit was just all tied to hunting.
And that's not to say thatthere wasn't recreational
shooting as well, because therewas, but we weren't.
The things that you saw, thethings that you held, the things
that were in the home, were allprimarily shotguns of different
(08:17):
types and bolt-action.
Right, it wasn't AR-15s, youknow, it wasn't even.
There weren't even lots ofpistols.
I don't think and that's not tosay that there were that
culture was there as well.
I think that there wereespecially people shooting
recreationally with pistols, buteven just you didn't see that
as much.
It was still very much tied toa sporting culture.
(08:41):
Just that's the shift.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And do you recall having that?
There was this conversationabout Second Amendment or Second
Amendment extremism.
Was that even something thatwas kind of floating around in
gun enthusiast circles, or wasit something that wasn't?
I feel like the AR-15 hasbecome such an emblem of that
that I think that it's changedthe conversation.
But I'm just curious if that'sbeen your experience.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
So if I think back of early media for me the only
time as a kid it's funny thethings that wind up sticking in
your memory as far as bigcultural events that you watch
take place on the news.
So I can't remember Ruby Ridge,but I can remember the
conversations that were centeredaround Ruby Ridge and I can
(09:26):
remember kind of a glance intosome of what that culture might
look like through that.
But no, not in the same way.
And I would say again, it's notthat it did not exist.
It did exist, but it did notexist at the level that it does
now.
It was not riding behind aminivan and they have a stick
(09:49):
figure family on the back andit's different types of assault
weapons.
It's not an AR-15 bumpersticker that says assault life
Like it wasn't this culturalphenomenon that it is now.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
It's almost become a dog whistle for other things too
that have been culturally tiedto it Totally absolutely, and
you told us you live in NorthCarolina.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
You've been there for generations in your family.
I'm wondering obviously you'resituated where you're situated.
So this might be an unfairquestion, but when you look at
gun culture today, do you see anoverarching gun culture or does
it differ, depending, perhaps,on where you live, if you live
in a city or the country, or ifyou're rich or poor?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I think that there's a whole lot of things going on.
So, for instance, I mentionedthat my best friend is a
gunsmith.
You know that 20 minutes ago Iwas sitting in a gun store.
He's someone who pretty muchonly wants to work on old guns,
like that's what interests him.
He has no interest in ARs.
Most of the people who come inthere don't have any interest in
(10:53):
them.
I think the thing that gets lostfrom inside gun culture.
You know where all thedifferent people are, but from
the outside gun culture onlylooks one way and it never looks
like me.
It never looks like somebodywho is actively looking for gun
reform, who actively wants tohave those conversations.
(11:16):
It never looks like somebodywho has no interest, desire to
ever own or shoot an AR-15.
Don't even think thatpersonally.
Don't think that they shouldexist.
That type of person from theoutside does not.
You know I don't exist, right?
You know, if you were to asksomebody from the outside what
(11:38):
gun culture looks like, I thinkit's rarely somebody who would
entertain discussions of gunreform and the truth is that I
think that they actually make upthe vast majority of gun owners
in this country.
One of the biggest things thathappened after I wrote that
essay for New York Timesmagazine was I just had all
(12:01):
these people reaching out to me,thinking me for the things that
I'd said, because they felt thesame way and they knew that it
was a voice that had not beengiven a stage.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I'm curious, because you're definitely not the first
person that I've heard say that,and as somebody who now I just
move back to my hometown, so nowI interact with a lot more gun
owners than I did when I livedout here in DC Like, I've heard
this conversation a lot, butthen when I hear repeatedly,
though, from gun owners is thatpeople aren't sharing this as
publicly right.
They're not sharing it outsideof their circle, and I'm
(12:34):
wondering if there's a reasonwhy folks aren't sharing it, or
are they and we're just notlistening the right way?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
I think it's.
You know, sensibility is notsexy, right?
Like the only thing that sellsis extremism from either side,
like whoever screams the loudestgets handed the microphone
We've and that's another hugecultural shift is that as a
country, we've lost the abilityto entertain any type of civil
(13:03):
discourse.
You know the only thing, theonly people that we give the
stage are the people who arescreaming at the tops of their
lungs, and so I think that thereare people who are having these
conversations and who arewilling to make those types of
statements, and nobody wants tolisten to it.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And I'm wondering.
It sounds like when you say gunculture from the outside but
doesn't look like you.
Who do you?
How do I say this?
How do you feel that you'vebeen or you are?
People who think like you aremisrepresented by people in the
gun violence prevention movementand by people who would say
they may not be, but who wouldsay it's claimed that they're
(13:46):
speaking for gun owners.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So people who are, you know, trying to think of the
right word.
I would be called a fud by gunculture, and that's meant as a
derogatory term.
It's meant as someone who youknow, who only wants firearms
for hunting.
You know, and that's not thetruth.
I have a firearm on my personas we're having this
(14:08):
conversation.
I think that if someone wants todefend their home, defend their
person, they should absolutelybe able to own firearms.
But I think that we havelaunched the way that we've
allowed that industry to wigglearound legalities at the expense
of human life for profit, Ithink is disgusting.
(14:29):
And so, from the outside, Ijust don't think that very many
people who aren't gun owners,who are actively seeking gun
reform, realize that they haveallies within the gun owner
community, that there are lotsof people who are willing to
entertain those conversations.
Even something like somethingthat we get that gets thrown
(14:53):
around all the time is waitingperiods.
You know, I don't know how manyfirearms I've bought this year.
I would say I'm bad to like,buy and sell, but let's just say
it was three or four let's sayit was three.
If you had told me that I had Idon't know pick a waiting period
, name it 30 days, 60 days, 90days, I don't care, I really
(15:17):
don't, and you and I are goingto have this conversation now
forever.
The majority of people at thatgun shop that I'm always in
would not care.
I think that if you need a gunright this very second, you've
got something else going onright and that's probably not
going to be the thing that'sgoing to help that situation.
Like, if you walk into a storeit's like I need a gun, I need a
(15:39):
gun right this minute.
I need it for this reason.
But so what I'm getting at isthat I think that there are
parts of that conversation thatget talked about often where,
from the outside, you wouldthink there aren't any gun
owners who are with us on this,and I think that there are a
whole lot of gun owners whowould love to have meaningful
(16:03):
conversations about whatsensible gun reform could look
like in this country.
So one of the things thathappened after I wrote that
essay was that so many peoplereached out to me wishing that
there was an organizationoutside of the NRA that
represented gun owners.
(16:23):
And I thought, the more I'vethought about it, I think I
could really see something likethat gaining foot to where it
was fuds like me, you know whereit was people who you know, who
were wanting to have theseconversations and who were
wanting to sit down at the table.
And when you tell me somethingthat makes sense to you, maybe
(16:47):
it doesn't make sense to me.
I know for a fact that you andI are not going to agree on
everything with regards to gunreform, but I know that if we
sit at that table and we sit atthat table from a place of
mutual respect and where we'reboth trying to accomplish
something we're going to findsome middle ground.
You know, what I would love tosee is for a community to take
(17:13):
its voice back.
The NRA does not speak for me.
The NRA does not speak for themajority of gun owners, you know
.
But they do right.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Their money makes it seem like they do.
They've got the biggestmegaphone.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, and they do.
At the end of the day, you know, the things that they say are
what become my voice, because Idon't have one, you know, on
that issue.
But I would love to see sometype of organization you know
start up like.
But as far as things that youcan do, you know, I think, just
(17:47):
recognizing that there areplenty of people who are willing
to entertain that conversationand to not lose hope, because
the only thing you're hearingare people who you know, who
don't see any room for change.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Could we take a second?
So you said FUD.
I've never heard that before.
What is that?
An acronym?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
or no, it's Elmer FUD , so like pictures.
Oh, so they use.
So Elmer FUD.
You know walking around with ashotgun, I'm going to get you.
You ask when we'll have it.
The term FUD is thrown aroundto represent, like I said, it's
a derogatory term and the reasonit's derogatory or used in that
(18:31):
sense is because it's typicallypeople like me who are
entertaining.
You know conversations about gunreform.
You know the people that arehard and fast.
Second amendment they don'twant to give anything, they
don't think that anything shouldbe limited.
That's a very difficultconversation for me, and part of
(18:54):
the reason is that you'realready, there's already piles
of things that I cannot own.
Right Like a hard and faststance to the second amendment
in my mind would be that if Iwanted, if I was capable of
funding nuclear weapons, that Ishould be able to have them,
that I should be able to haveanything.
And there are already piles ofthings that I'm not allowed to
(19:16):
own.
I'm not allowed to own shortbarreled shotguns, I'm not
allowed to own short barreledrifles, I'm not allowed to own
machine guns, or at least Iwould have to jump through a
whole lot more hoops if I wasgoing to own, and so what I'm
getting at is that the verypeople who are arguing that this
(19:38):
should be an unlimited rightare already working from a
stance of being limited, likethere are already things that
you can own.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I think the argument in response, though, from some
folks or at least that I'veheard, or that Kelly and I get
yelled at on the internet aboutis that those limits shouldn't
exist.
You know so that they'realready working under a limited
and unfair system, but I thinkthat that kind of gets to.
What you're pointing at is thatthere's a lot to unpack that's
already present in there.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Well, I think what that gets to is that nobody in
their right mind would agreethat you should operate from a
system of zero limitation, thatif somebody like Elon Musk, who
quite literally does have themoney to fund something like a
nuclear program if he wanted to,could do that, like that's the
(20:28):
other side of the argument, likeif there's no limit, there's no
limits, and I don't think thatvery many people, very many
sensible people, would say yeah,that's what we should have.
And I think when it gets tothat point, it's very easy to
dismiss that argument entirelyand realize that you have to
operate from some type oflimitation.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And you mentioned that you, even though people
like to say, oh, you only wantguns for hunting, that you also
have guns for defense, justcertain types of guns, and I'm
wondering how do you weigh yourpersonal calculus when deciding
I want to keep a gun for selfdefense, because that's
something to your point?
We don't necessarily have thoseconversations all the time and
(21:12):
I'm just curious about if you'recomfortable, how you sort of
decided you're going to get afirearm.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I think the decision for me boils down to the world
that we live in now and it boilsdown to my personal history of
having experienced gun trauma,having a gun put to my head when
I was a kid.
That was something thatabsolutely altered every, that
altered something very deeplyabout my personality, which is
(21:40):
to say that when I walk into aWal-Mart, I know where every
exit is in the Wal-Mart in mytown, like it's ingrained in my
head.
I know the things that I wouldlikely try to get behind if I
could not get to an exit.
My brain is constantly workinglike that because it's had to in
the past and I think, knowinghow responsible I am with
(22:04):
firearms, I think it became.
It just became something that Iwanted to have, and so the
majority of the time I carry, Ido carry a pistol with me.
When it comes to the types ofweapons that I like to own or
that interest me, and whythey're not, because the other
side that is a very legitimateargument is that an AR-15 could
(22:27):
be used for all types ofsensible things, and it can.
You could most certainly havefun shooting them recreationally
.
You could most certainlychamber them in a caliber to
where it's a very viable huntingoption.
You could most.
There are lots of things.
Whatever it is, we talk aboutARs, and we talk about ARs for a
(22:48):
reason, which is that, time andtime again, that tends to be
the rifle that's used in massshooter events.
For me, it becomes a matter ofrecognizing a very serious
problem in this country,thinking that we have to try to
do something to rectify that,and if it means taking away
(23:12):
certain types of weapons andlimiting those types of weapons,
then that's something that, forme, makes sense.
I would be up for areclassification of those
weapons, like a reclassificationof those weapons under Title II
, so that they're under the samethings as short barrel rifles
or short barrel shotguns, sothat, yes, you can own it, but
(23:35):
you're gonna have to jumpthrough a lot more hoops to do
it, which means that I can'twalk into a store and buy an
AR-15 and a couple thousandrounds of 223 and a bucket
marketed as a freedom bucket andthen walk outside the door and
mow down a supermarket.
I think the ease with which wecan buy weapons in this country
(23:58):
and weapons of that caliber inthis country is disgusting.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Do you think and so I'm just curious, because we've
talked about a few things nowwaiting periods,
reclassification of kind of Iwould say like high capacity
firearms what are some otherreforms that you think that
folks or at least gun owners whoare like you would be likely to
go for?
That again, maybe the gunman'sprevention movement isn't maybe
(24:25):
reaching it too appropriately.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I think a major thing is a failure on the ATF.
It stopped letting thesemanufacturers wiggle around
legalities.
Like you have laws in place,and so you think about a weapon
like the shock wave, which is asclassified as AOW as any other
weapon which you look at.
(24:49):
You shoot one.
You know for a fact that it's ashort barreled shotgun, right,
and they're figuring out a wayto classify the short barreled
shotgun as illegal.
The AOW is not.
They found a way to wigglearound legalities to sell
something that should be that isillegal.
You think about, you know.
(25:10):
So one of the big things that'sbeen playing out recently is
braces on your pistols, right,and the reason that's a big deal
is because the minute you put abrace on it, it's not a pistol,
right, it's a short barreledrifle.
Well, stop fucking letting themjump around, right, like you
know what they're trying to do.
(25:31):
And that's the type of thingthat makes no sense to me.
It makes no sense to me why youwould allow a product like a
bump stock or a product like anecho trick, why the ATF is
allowing products that solepurpose is to increase the rate
of fire in semi-automaticweapons.
Why is that allowed?
(25:52):
And that's what I mean bythings that are like that is
lunacy, and that's not a matterof new laws.
That's a matter of stop lettingthem wiggle around laws that
already exist.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
I think like a blatant example.
The one that crushes me isghost guns.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
As a whole.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
It's not a gun, but like it's not an IKEA table,
Like I know what it is.
We all know what it is.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Everyone knows what they are, but legally yeah, and
those are the sorts of things Imean, sometimes to your point,
when we have these laws.
A lot of times when I talk topeople and these tend to be
people who aren't in gun cultthey think we have more laws
than we already have.
I don't know if that's theexperience within circles of
people who do own guns, but alot of people think, oh, but
(26:39):
there are universal, there arewaiting periods or there are
these laws and then you tellthem there are universal
background checks.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, so these laws do have teeth.
If you get caught with a gun,yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
And then I tell people like, oh no, ghost guns
are not.
And then they're shocked, andso I wonder if some of it is
just sort of clarifying some ofthese myths that we have laws,
there's a lot of things, or thatwe're enforcing the laws
effectively yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah Well, like, for instance, me, I have a concealed
carry permit, so when Ipurchase a gun, I have to fill
out paperwork on it, just likeyou would in North Carolina for
anything else.
But he does not have to call ina background check, which to me
is problematic, right, Becauseyou're assuming that nothing has
(27:22):
happened since that concealedcarry was issued.
I may have a restraining orderfor domestic violence, which
should be a trigger, right?
That should be something thatlimits my ability to buy another
firearm, Like the system thatwe have doesn't even function,
and I think that on both sidesnobody knows what's going on,
(27:43):
and the politicians mostassuredly don't.
They think that it's cute toput an AR-15 pen on the lapel of
a suit and that it meanssomething.
Again, it's disgusting.
You know what has happened inthis country and I don't.
You know that buddy of mine.
He's not the kind of person whowould talk with you, and what I
(28:04):
mean by that is he's old andmountain people don't talk to
nobody.
But I truly wish that he would,because he has witnessed first
hand what every aspect oflegislation has, how it has
affected things since he startedthat gun shop in the 80s, and
so I think that it's hard tohave conversations about.
(28:28):
You know the legislation thatdoes exist, because the average
person does not know it.
I think it's also becomes veryhard to have conversations about
firearms because people whodon't know firearms, they don't
know it.
So, like when you start talkingabout firearms, terms get thrown
(28:48):
around and the minute theterminology is wrong that's one
of the things that they love tolatch on to right.
It's like well, what do youmean by that?
Do you know what I've saidbefore?
That I think that if apresident did nothing but codify
language around firearms, thatwould be a major accomplishment,
to where, suddenly, we wereable to have a real conversation
(29:12):
and be talking about the samethings.
You know we're not operatingfrom any type of dictionary.
The terms get thrown aroundloosely and the truth is we
don't know what we're talkingabout half the time and all of
that is working very muchagainst us.
And on the other end of that,you have a whole lot of money
(29:35):
constantly trying to make thatconversation more difficult.
You know, if you remember whenyou and I met and we were on
that panel and one of thequestions at the end was whether
or not it had to do with moneyand the answer that was given
was that no, I don't think ithas to do with money.
And then they asked mesomething after and it was like
(29:58):
it absolutely has to do withmoney.
You know, everything in thiscountry has to do with money,
and that's what makes it so damndifficult is that you can be
sensible and you can learn goodthings, but you're up against an
unfathomable amount of money.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And that kind of brings me to another thing in
addition to money.
So much this conversation.
From what I've experienced isfear, and one of the things that
comes up a lot is obviouslythere's some people that are
just cynical actors, but thereare a lot of people who are just
genuinely, for a lot of goodreasons.
The world is scary in a lot ofways and are just trying to
grapple with.
How do I protect myself?
(30:36):
And you've written a lot aboutfear and relationships and I'm
wondering the role that you seefear playing, whether it's in
the misrepresentations aroundgun culture or the conversations
we have about policy or reform.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I think I just got off of.
I had a novel come out about amonth, about two months ago now,
but so I was on tour for thatnovel for about a month and a
half, and that novel primarilywrestles with issues of white
supremacy.
I was in a conversation withsomeone, though, and a woman,
and we were talking about, likeI think, that white.
(31:15):
I think that the burden of thatconversation rests solely on
white people, on white America,to be having that conversation,
and I was talking about that,and a woman blurted out she said
but what if it gets you killed?
And I had a couple of differentresponses, which was one the
(31:37):
danger that I have to live within a moment like that is
incomparable to the danger thata black American has to live
with 24 hours a day.
So suck it up, sally.
But at the end of the day, Irecognized that she had a very
legitimate and real fear, whichis that she felt that if she
(32:00):
were to stand up publicly and,let's say, to go to a BLM march
or something, that she would beplacing herself in a very real
danger of being killed.
And it was hard to wrestlearound that For me.
I refuse to let fear ever be anobstacle with righteousness, so
(32:23):
if I know what the right thingto do is, then fear can never be
a limitation of that, and Ithink, in the end, what I told
her was I said that theconversations that need to be
had don't have to be had onstreet corners.
I said they need to be takenplace at the kitchen table and
on the front porch with yourfriends and your family, and
(32:45):
that's the truth of it.
But ultimately, what I was leftwith was just this is exactly
what you're talking about, whichis that for so many Americans
right now, they live in aconstant state of fear and panic
that at any moment somethingcould happen and it could.
I can't imagine being a parent.
I don't have children.
I can't fathom what it would belike to load that child up onto
(33:10):
a school bus every morning orto drop them off in front of a
school and know that at anymoment something could happen.
My partner works at auniversity.
I'm sitting across from thatuniversity right now.
I would say that it's only amatter of time before they have
it, have some type of event takeplace at that university.
And yeah, I think that for themajority of Americans it's
(33:34):
become so second nature to usthat it's just expected we could
end this phone call and all ofus look at our phones and there
have been another shootingbecause it happens with that
type of frequency.
It also makes.
That's what makes it sodifficult to entertain this
conversation Like I think aboutthat essay for the New York
(33:55):
Times magazine.
We worked on that for nearly ayear and a half and it was
because every time we would getinto edits another event would
take place, the conversationwould shift.
It was like trying to holdwater in your hands.
It was constantly moving andslipping through your fingers
and you never could pin it downbecause the conversation was
(34:15):
constantly changing.
You think about a moment likethe man walking into that
supermarket in Buffalo, new Yorkand what took place on that day
and within a week nobody wastalking about Buffalo, new York.
And there's multiple reasonsthey weren't.
For one it was because it hadtargeted a black community and
(34:38):
it was easy enough to move on.
But why was it easy enough tomove on?
What happened that next week?
It'll be the vaulties, that'sexactly right.
The conversation happens withsuch frequency, those events
happen with such frequency thatit becomes impossible.
It's constantly putting us inthe ditch.
(34:59):
Or you think about somebodylike Stephen Pat and you think
about what that conversationlooked like following Stephen
Pat, and then all of a sudden,we're somewhere else again.
It's just constantly.
Those events are running theconversation into the ditch over
and over again and neverallowing us to maintain any kind
(35:22):
of direct course.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
It's interesting too, because when you mentioned
before, the lay of the land hasbecome that you have two very
loud opposing sides and then themajority of folks in between is
that I think the little avatarshave been created too of what
somebody looks like, who's forwhat somebody who looks like is
against.
I think earlier when youmentioned you said something
about how gun owners don't looklike you, and you were referring
to holding the values that youhold or having its opinion.
(35:47):
But it's interesting because ifI think of what somebody who's
like a gun bouncer mentionedadvocate in DC thinks a gun
owner looks like, you're theavatar of it.
You're a guy, you're a ruralsouthern guy with a beard,
you're white, our folks can'tsee it, but you got a lovely hat
Like.
People were like yeah, ofcourse, that's what a gun owner
looks like.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
It makes it difficult , I think, then to then have a
conversation, because then folkslike your friend who's a
gunsmith, who I'd want to talkto, one culturally probably just
don't want to talk to astranger, but then also two very
few people want to go into aconversation where they think
they've already been prejudgedand found wanting and they don't
want a conversation wherethey're just going to get yelled
(36:29):
.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I think this is true of themajority of conversations that
need to be taken place in thiscountry.
We are an air conditionedculture who refuses to be made
uncomfortable and I'm especiallyspeaking about white America,
which is to say that we refuseto be made uncomfortable for any
(36:50):
extended period of time and Ithink that that's something that
we are going to have to address, Like we're going to have to
start laying the ugly out on thetable and entertaining very
difficult conversations andremain uncomfortable for very
(37:10):
long, extended periods of timeIf we're going to make headway
on any of the issues that arereally ripping this country
apart.
And the saddest part of thatand when I lose hope the most is
when I look at the people thatwe elect, and this is a crowd.
I truly think that this isalong both sides.
(37:33):
These are people who it is.
It is.
You know it's pageantry.
None of them are having realconversations.
You know it's all theatrics,it's all the show, and I just
think about how sad that makesme.
The only time I'm ever hopefulis when I spend time with people
(37:54):
who are younger than me.
So, after the school shootingsthat are that first school
shooting that UNC Chapel Hillearlier this year.
You know they had another eventa couple weeks after that.
I don't know, Did either of yousee the front page of that
school?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
All of the text messages.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yeah, Text messages of students during that event
and one of the students said Icouldn't believe how unprepared
my teachers were.
And a teacher who I know, aprofessor that I know at the
university I'm sitting across,who I'm friends with, hosted
(38:35):
something on Facebook about howdisturbing he found that was
something that was expected ofhim.
And what I told him is I saidyou're talking about a
generation who, at every levelof education, has had active
shooter training and who has hadteachers who they knew had
(38:58):
active shooter training.
So why would you not expectthis kid to carry the
expectation that you'd thatyou'd have?
Of course, of course they'regoing to think that, but what
I'm getting at is that you'vegot an entire generation of kids
who have grown up not kneelingin the middle of a hallway
against the lockers, pray that atornado don't knock the windows
(39:20):
out, who are being taught tobarricade doors so that they
don't get shot and who live witha very real fear of that.
I find it hard to believe thatgeneration is not going to, is
not going to, make some very bigshifts and I think part of the
scrambling that we're seeing onso many levels, you know, with
(39:41):
book bands and this, and that is, this last grasp for power,
because we're a country that isat a fracture point.
Something has to give, and I dofind hope in a generation who
is fed up.
You know, I don't think that youcan have a conversation about
(40:02):
gun culture and gun reformwithout also having very real
conversations about Americancapitalism and white supremacy.
You know, all of these thingsare walking hand in hand and I
think that makes it verydifficult to untangle.
I don't think that we talkenough about gun culture and
(40:22):
race.
You know I don't think that wetalk enough about gun laws and
white supremacy in this country.
I think when most people thinkmilitia, you know they're
thinking about militias thatthat were developed, you know,
to fight the British.
They're most assuredly notthinking about militias whose
primary fear were were revoltsby, you know, people enslaved.
(40:46):
That's where those laws comefrom.
You know all of this isconnected.
All of it is deeply connected,and it's deeply connected in a
system that was founded upon andperpetuated by white supremacy
and where profits were alwaysthe driving factor.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
And even you know, when I think militia, I grew up
in Michigan, so I think Michiganmilitia, you know like that's
where, which is a whole form ofextremism today.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
So and then tied in two with that race conversation
is also that rural and urbandivide too.
And then how folks like do youfire arms ownership and you race
within those two differentcontexts?
as well because that's so tiedto then, to class and everything
else.
Just love to have you come back.
Or we should do a book club foryour book, because I do say
it's fiction for our listeners,but I think it distills a lot of
(41:40):
.
I honestly think sometimesfiction is one of the best ways
we can do this, because itdoesn't feel like you're
directly confronting orattacking people with that
uncomfortable feeling, but youdo have to unpack all of these
things through humanrelationships.
So it's a, I think, a muchlighter lift for most people and
has a heavier impact.
And where can folks find you andyour work if they listen to
(42:02):
this?
And we're like.
We like him we need more.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
So my books you can find anywhere.
But you know, and if you justwanted to read that piece that
was in New York Times Magazine,you know if you search my name
and gun it would probably pop up.
But you know I maintainInstagram and Twitter and all of
that.
But yeah, the you know my workas far as the books, so you can
(42:24):
find them wherever books you'resold Perfect.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I'll link to them in the description of the episode.
Yeah and again, thank you somuch.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Thank you, so much Thank you, thank y'all.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Hey want to share with the podcast.
Listeners can now get in touchwith us here at Red Blue and
Brady via phone or text message.
We call or text us at480-744-3452 with your thoughts.
Questions concerns ideas, catpictures, whatever.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Thanks for listening.
As always, brady's lifesavingwork in Congress, the courts and
communities across the countryis made possible thanks to you.
For more information on Bradyor how to get involved in the
fight against gun violence,please like and subscribe to the
podcast.
Get in touch with us atBradyUnitedorg or on social at
Brady Buzz.
Be brave and remember.
(43:12):
Take action, not size.
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