August 31, 2023 • 50 mins
#030 Keith Liao shares his career journey from Physical Therapists to Cornell MBA & climbing gym business owner. Alternative career change to business owner.
Keith, a California native, pursued an economics degree at UCLA before attending PT school in Boston. He later obtained an MBA from Cornell University. With a business-oriented mindset, Keith became a traveling physical therapist, but after three years, he sought better opportunities and pursued an MBA. During his studies, he interned with the National Park Service and later joined Booz Allen Hamilton as a federal consultant. When the pandemic hit, Keith returned to Cornell and seized the chance to establish his own climbing gym, personally overseeing its construction. As the gym became self-sufficient, Keith found a consulting job at Potrero Group, aligning with his previous experience. Today, he owns the gym, works as a contract consultant, and founded an education startup called Aedify, using his physical therapy skills to excel in his new endeavors.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
RR Intro (00:00):
Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
Are you a rehab professionalready to transition to an
alternative career, hearinspiring stories from
others just like you, andlearn the best ways to
bridge your career gap?
This podcast has you covered.
Now, here's your host,Doctor of Physical Therapy
and podcaster Tanner Welsch
Tanner Welsch (00:20):
Keith, we'll just start off
like we do with everyone.
Just imagine, like we'resitting across from each other
at a coffee shop, having a,just a simple conversation.
It's going to be very similarto the discovery call and the
goal is just really to captureyour journey and story and get
a flow going and go from there.
, I'll just have you Keithintroduce who you are,
(00:42):
where you're from, whereyou went to PT school and
what you're currently doing.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (00:47):
Sure.
So I'm Keith I, I wentto PT school in Boston.
Institute of Health Professions.
I grew up in California gotan undergrad in economics
at UCLA, and then wentto Boston for PT school.
And then I also have an MBAfrom Cornell University.
Tanner Welsch (01:10):
Congrats, man,
Shek-hung Keith Liao (01:11):
A lot of time schooling.
Tanner Welsch (01:13):
for sure.
So what are you currentlydoing right now?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (01:18):
Yeah.
So right now, I think if there'sone word to describe me, or
at least one phrase, I wouldsay, I always respond and say
I'm a serial entrepreneur.
And that's because I'm doinga few things right now.
I am managing a climbinggym that I started remotely.
So I have a General manageron site that manages it and
(01:40):
I, I take care of some ofthe administrative duties.
And then I am a contractconsultant at a, I would
say a boutique consultingfirm in the public lands
and sustainability industry.
Tanner Welsch (01:53):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (01:54):
And then I've also founded a
company called Edify, whichis an education startup.
And we're focused on gamifyingeducation starting with
Gamifying personal finance.
Tanner Welsch (02:06):
Cool.
You wear a lot of hats
Shek-hung Keith Liao (02:11):
Yes.
Yes.
And I guess you could say I'malso an army military spouse.
So that maybe might bringinto context like why I've
managed the gym remotelyrather than in person.
Tanner Welsch (02:22):
For sure.
That totally makes sense.
Okay.
So that's what you're doing.
Now let's bridge the gap with,Starting back when you
graduated PT school, whatdid you start doing after
you graduated PT school?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (02:35):
yeah, so once when I graduated I've
always wanted to thought thatI once I was felt ready, I
would open up my own clinic.
But I didn't know whereto open the clinic.
I.
I thought Boston might beokay, but just wasn't really
sure and I knew, I wasn'tready as a new grad to do it.
Tanner Welsch (02:57):
Sure.
Shek-hung Keith L (02:58):
I ended up...
At the clinic that I wasbasically doing that last
internship with I met atraveling PT who, told me,
oh, hey, you should trytraveling it, pays more you
get to see different places.
And so I'm thinking,oh, this is great.
You know, I make more money.
And then I also.
maybe have a chance to scoutout different areas of the
(03:21):
United States where I canopen up a practice or just be
exposed to a little bit more.
Tanner Welsch (03:27):
For sure.
what made you, like, howdid you know you wanted
to open up a practice likearound PT school time?
Like, how did you know that?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (03:35):
Yeah.
My undergrad was ineconomics major in
economics and accountings.
So I've always been at leastsomewhat business minded.
And just go before goinginto PT school, that was.
I knew I was interested inkind of medicine now orthopedic
stuff and helping people throughtheir, musculoskeletal problems.
(03:56):
But I also knew I wanted tomaybe have the chance to flex
my business mindset and alsoadd that extra component to PT.
Tanner Welsch (04:07):
For sure.
So did you go like fromyour accounting economics
degree right into PT school?
Shek- (04:15):
No, so technically PT was already my second career.
Tanner Welsch (04:19):
Okay.
Shek-hun (04:20):
I graduated and was an accountant for, I think,
two to three months, and itwas mind numbingly boring.
I sat at a desk for eighthours, I don't know, like
clicking on numbers and stuff.
And especially as a collegegrad, at that level,
it's just very thought,it's very thoughtless.
(04:42):
And I always liked working out.
So I was like, I'm sittingat a desk 40 hours a week.
I want to get out there andtalk to people from my job.
And I got a personaltraining certification
became a personal trainer.
And then that was for abouta year and then I got a job
as a physical therapy aidfor about a year and then
in the midst of all thatI was like, Oh, I should
(05:04):
become a physical therapist.
Tanner Welsch (05:06):
Okay.
So it was like a bit ofa transition into, to
getting to PT school.
It wasn't your firstchoice right away.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (05:12):
Yeah.
Tanner Welsch (05:14):
Okay.
So you graduate PT school, youwant to open a business, really
not sure where I imagine you're,you're working for a while
as a PT, what's next for you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (05:24):
Yeah, that's, that was my question
before I got my MBA was, Ipracticed for about two, maybe
almost three years at thatpoint so I felt comfortable.
As a physical therapist,like I felt okay I can treat
a patient pretty decently.
And I started looking into anOCS, or something just to
(05:49):
take me to the next level.
I'd taken a bit of continuinged courses by that time.
And I that just didn'tfeel it didn't feel
right to me at the OCS.
I don't know there's thereare there's a study in
JOSPT that shows there'sno correlation between a
residency and better outcomes.
(06:11):
I don't know if youread that study it.
It says fellowships have betteroutcome, but people who've
done fellowships but peoplewho've done residencies or
have the certification doesn't.
necessarily have betteroutcomes, they actually have
worse outcomes than a new grad.
Yeah that's the deal with SPT.
It didn't inspire me.
It was too much work and toomuch money to do it while
(06:31):
you don't get paid more.
And I didn't feel like an OCSor something like that would
allow me to market myself betterif I opened a clinic as well.
Tanner Welsch (06:42):
Sure.
Sh (06:43):
Basically, I started looking at alternative options then.
Tanner Welsch (06:48):
Okay.
You realize this OCS thing'snot really a good idea.
It didn't really make sense.
What are these other optionsthat you're looking at and
what brought them to the table?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (06:57):
Yeah, so I was using Epic, the macro
documentation at that time.
And I was getting, I wasactually really good at it.
I created all all these smartphrases that are where I would
type up my documentation,like really quickly.
And then I was a littleangry at just like how
poorly designed it was.
So I like started browsingon their website for
like jobs with them.
(07:19):
I applied to a bunchand never got a reply.
But that kind of at least putme on the, okay here's maybe
some non clinical healthcarejobs I should look at.
So I started looking at thatand then I'm not really sure
how I landed on an MBA, I think.
I think most people know thedegree at least, so I probably
started looking and I'm like,okay, these are the average
(07:40):
salaries coming out of an MBA.
Seems like it's one of the fewthings that Makes it worth it.
Like one of the few, if I wentback and I don't know, got
a public some other master'sdegree might not be worth
the money just because wedo make okay money as PTs.
I'd say okay.
So you get above that.
It does take a little bit more.
(08:02):
And just my natural interest inbusiness made, I think it, it
was, it seemed like a good fit.
So
Tanner Welsch (08:08):
for sure.
Makes sense.
Okay.
And that's, that was bridgingthe gap to getting the MBA.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (08:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was still, the, obviouslythe application processes.
Yeah.
Quite involved, I would say.
So
Tanner Welsch (08:25):
So I, I'm curious, like what, I imagine
it was really competitivetrying to get into, such
a prestigious school.
Can you share some light on,maybe a little bit about what
the process was like, or maybewhat helped you stand out for
those that maybe you're lookingto getting, wanting MBA as well.
Oh, wow.
Shek-hung (08:44):
yeah, so the process is it's going into it.
I didn't know about the process.
And, for physical therapyschool, we, it's tough to get
into physical therapy school,you need good grades, you need
the volunteer hours, and thenyou need good GRE, I think.
But you can, you just applythrough PT CAS, and Honestly,
(09:07):
the amount, what kind of schoolyou go to doesn't, I don't
think has a big difference.
And I think you can getin off a high GRE score.
But I will say like I hada pretty high GRE score.
I had four prereqs donegoing into PT school and
Four out of 13, right?
So I applied to 20different schools through
(09:28):
BTCAS and got in about 10.
And so I just, it was justa pure numbers approach.
But then I'll, I guess onthe other hand with the
MBA program that I thoughtI could do the same.
And I took the GMAT I spentI, basically, because I was
between travel contracts, I hada month, I just basically spent
eight hours a day studying forthe GMAT for a month and again,
(09:49):
got a pretty good score on itthat I felt like I could apply
to any school and I basicallyapplied to the top ten schools,
just and it didn't work at all,
Tanner Welsch (10:01):
Oh
Shek-hung Keith Liao (10:02):
Yeah, you really can't get in
just off a high score or youthere's a lot of networking,
you actually literally haveto call up like two, three
students at each school, talkto them and then mention them
in your essay, be like, Okay,I talked to that student.
This is why I wantto go to this school.
And if you do, if you have todo that for 10 schools, that's
(10:24):
a lot of additional work.
Yeah.
That's the process.
It's still an applicationand there's some like videos
and stuff, but it involvesa lot of like visitation
and networking that wasn'tpart of the PT process.
Tanner Welsch (10:38):
Definitely, that is something brand
new that we don't run intoin the kind of PT realm.
On a prior episode with Adam,he was in the IT realm and he's
explained something very similarthat you're expected to go on
to LinkedIn or these other kindof networks and have a coffee
(11:00):
chat, talking to employees.
They're at these businessesthat you want to get
into and learn more aboutthe company, et cetera.
So it's a very big networkingheavy aspect to be able to get
into that particular company.
And in this case, it's the samefor getting into that school.
So that's really unique.
Thank you for sharing that
Shek-hung Keith Liao (11:19):
Yeah, I actually the coffee chat
is a very good term for that.
That's, I think, also calledlike that in the MBA world.
Tanner Welsch (11:27):
for sure.
Okay.
So you did the coffee chats anddid some networking and is that
really what do you feel got youinto the Cornell MBA program?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (11:39):
So I think I basically applied to
the first, the top 10 and Ididn't get into a single one.
I got an interview at one place,the 10th, the number 10th ranked
place, and I didn't accept itbeyond that I was on the wait
list MBA programs, they havethree rounds to get in per year.
So there's like roundone, round two, where it's
(12:01):
like fall, spring, andthen like late spring.
Tanner Welsch (12:04):
Mm.
Shek-hung Ke (12:04):
Oh, that was fall.
That was the first round.
And then the second round,I was like I clearly
don't know what I'm doing.
Tanner Welsch (12:11):
Mm.
Shek-hung Ke (12:12):
And I hired an MBA admissions consultant.
Who basically told me all thethings, she was like, oh, you
have to talk to some currentstudents and she introduced
me to some current students,I put them in my essays.
And then I started gettinginto schools but she also
did manage my, I'd sayexpectations on where the type
(12:33):
of schools I should apply to.
Tanner Welsch (12:35):
Mm.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (12:36):
Just coming out of PT school
they're telling you, you gota doctorate, they really try
to loft up what the professionis, and having got the MGH,
which, it's a decent hospital.
Just it's not quite as valuedoutside of the PT realm,
the me or the way you work.
Yeah, just, she told me to setmy sights more on the 10 to
(12:59):
20 rank school range in that,that by itself helped a lot.
Tanner Welsch (13:04):
Okay.
Cool.
That's, so that's gettinginto the MBA at Cornell.
How long was that program?
What was that like?
And then we'll lead intokind of what was after
the program for you.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (13:17):
Yeah.
So the program was two years.
And between the first andsecond year, there's a three
month internship that's paid.
It's a, it's, it's two years,but not technically two years,
because it's, that threemonth internship is well paid.
For me I took an internshipat the National Park Service
doing internal consulting.
(13:37):
Unfortunately, that wasa, probably, that was the
lowest paid internship,probably, in the NEA program.
Tanner Welsch (13:45):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (13:45):
Probably.
But it was too good.
It's National Park Serviceis too good to pass up.
I was like, this is anopportunity of a lifetime.
So the school actually paidme an extra stipend because it
was such a low pay internship.
They wanted to make up for it.
Tanner Welsch (14:02):
Cool.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (14:04):
Yeah, so that, that's fantastic, right?
That's great that the schoolkind of support me right
so that's something that Ifound, I read really much
appreciated that appreciatedthat I gave up a bit, but to
still take on, I would saylike a very good internship
very prestigious internship
Tanner Welsch (14:23):
For sure.
Shek-hun (14:25):
in school itself it's.
I'd say the first six monthsor so, it's almost all,
it's basically a six monthpreparation into how to
interview and apply for jobs.
It's not academic at all,like really academics are put
(14:45):
to the side, like you haveto take these core classes
that do give you the generalbusiness understanding,
but that's not the emphasisis practicing interviews.
It was And like I so inconsulting to when you
interview for a consultinginternship or job, you have
to go through somethingcalled a case interview.
(15:07):
And it's where they giveyou they'll say this company
wants to develop a newproduct in Latin America.
Should they do it or not?
And then they give you likecharts and some stuff, and
then you have to spend thenext 10 minutes explaining
your reason for why theyshould do that or not.
(15:27):
Very difficult, right?
It's very on the spot.
There's a.
Some crazy mental math youhave to do to interpret the
charts and like equations.
And I spent, I did 90practice interviews for those.
The first semester, so in eachpractice interview probably
takes about 30 minutes.
So that's just the firstsemester of school.
(15:47):
That's in addition tojust regular, standard
interviews as well.
Tanner Welsch (15:51):
Sure.
So this is like a lot ofpreparation for you for
the, at least the initialpart of the MBA program.
And then you did the internshipin the middle, right?
And then the last part ismore kind of coursework.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (16:06):
Yeah, I'd say last part that the
second half of the MBA, thesecond year, it's Depending on
whether you've landed a job, somany interns at the end of the
summer, the company will say,Hey, we want you to come back.
Here's our offer to you.
And especially those people,once they've accepted the offer,
all they have to do is pass andthey have a high paying job.
(16:29):
Oh, there's twoschools of people.
One school people will, theyjust, they end up going,
they, they spend their bonus.
The bonus is like 30to 50, 000, right?
So that's the signing bonus.
And they'll spend it onlike vacations and just
eating at fancy restaurants.
(16:49):
And then there's the otherschool of people which I felt
like I probably more belong towas take as many classes as we
can because it's the same costand we're not going to, likely
not going to be in school again.
Really like I, I took likeas many courses as I could.
I even took stuff likeI took a lot of health
administration courses withanother Cornell program, and
(17:12):
I took caving, and random flyfishing, and that, everything
just Cornell had to offer.
So, yeah,
Tanner Wels (17:18):
That's really cool.
I didn't know that therewas such a variety at
in the MBA program ofcourses you could take.
So that's cool.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (17:25):
yeah, I think the nice thing about
a school like Cornell is thatIt does allow you to take
courses with the undergrads orlike with the other programs
so versus maybe a smaller,more specialized school.
Tanner Welsch (17:41):
Okay.
It makes sense.
So you graduate with the MBAget us to whatever's next.
I don't know if the climbinggym was actually next in
order or what is next for you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (17:53):
Yeah, so after that was, I was not
one of the people who actuallyhad a return offer from the
internship and simply that'sbecause the National Park
Service doesn't have that.
It's purely an internshipI was applying to jobs.
I didn't really want to dothe traditional consulting.
The traditional consultingis you fly out one day
(18:14):
to the client site, youreturn Thursday every week.
You work 60 to 80 hours.
So people do that forabout two to three years
and then typically theyleave and then take a job
at a corporate company.
Solaris was fantastic.
It's about 180, 000 with50, 000 sign on bonus and
like about 20, 000 to 30,000 in yearly bonuses.
(18:39):
So it makes up for the amountof work you have to do,
but I didn't feel like it.
I didn't feel like I wantedto put myself through that.
Tanner Welsch (18:48):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (18:49):
So I ended up actually taking a
federal consulting job witha big federal contractor
called Booz Allen Hamilton,where they put me on the
National Park Service team.
Really, I.
Basically used my experiencefrom the internship to land
this job, and the locationwas in Denver, so I moved
out there, and basically.
(19:11):
Took a job working with them.
Tanner Welsch (19:13):
Okay, that makes sense.
Nice.
Okay, you got the contractthe contract gig all set up.
When did this climbinggym come into play?
What's next here?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (19:23):
yeah.
Oh Bruce Allen Hamiltonwasn't the contract.
It was a salary regularsalaried consultant gig.
Just so I did that fortwo years, COVID came.
I came back.
I went back to Cornell becausemy girlfriend at the time was
still going to school there.
So I, with COVID, I wasable to work remotely and
(19:44):
not have to work in Denver.
Went back to the Cornellarea and she is my wife now,
by the way yeah thank you.
I'd say, honestly, that'sprobably the, my best outcome
from the MBA, actually, justmeeting.
Yeah, I'm not sayingthis because I think she
will listen to this, butAnyways, so I went back to, to,
to Ithaca, where Cornell is.
(20:05):
And I'm just a big rockclimber myself and with COVID
shutting down and then theCornell has a very small
climbing gym that's very busy.
There just wasn't anotherclimbing gym in the area.
So I saw that as anopportunity to just.
open one myself.
And fortunately, I found adecent location pretty quickly.
(20:26):
And this kind of justwent down that path.
Tanner Welsch (20:29):
It, was that kind of your main...
I guess income sourcewhenever you went back to
the Cornell area, to bewith your girlfriend, was
that kind of your main job,Keith and income, or were
you doing other things too?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (20:44):
so I, because I was able to work
remotely in my consulting job,I didn't have to quit until
the day the gym open basically.
So the entire time it was underconstruction or even just I was
looking for places I was makingthe consulting income remotely
so that was very beneficial.
(21:05):
I quit, like I had set I setmy quit date the day the gym
open, so I didn't have kindof a break in the income.
Tanner Welsch (21:13):
perfect.
That's smart.
Like nice, smoothtransition there.
What was your lifelike at that time?
Or what was your schedule life?
That seems like a lot to juggle.
You're doing the consultingand then you're trying to
open up this climbing gym.
Can you talk to us a littlebit about, What that was
like, maybe some struggles youhad going through that time.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (21:29):
Yeah I.
It's very expensive toopen a climbing gym.
And fortunately, Ithacais a small community, so
I don't have to, I didn'thave to open a giant one.
I was starting small.
It's just bouldering, no ropesa community oriented gym.
But the way I did I basically.
Open it at about half or evena third the cost of what it
(21:52):
takes to normally open one.
And that's because I drilledevery single hole in the
climbing walls myself.
Well, My wife alsohelped me do that.
And it's about 8, 000 holes.
So 8, 000 half inch holes intothree quarter inch plywood.
Tanner Welsch (22:09):
Oh my gosh.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (22:10):
Yeah, so that saved me a lot of
money, but basically I wouldfinish my job for the day and
doing the consulting work.
And then I would go to, theplace where the gym that we
rented out, which, obviouslywasn't open then at night.
And then me and my wife, agirlfriend at that time would
drill holes.
And for two to three hours,like we'd watch a Netflix
(22:32):
movie while doing it.
so, And then.
Basically, I did alot of it myself,
Tanner Welsch (22:37):
was your consulting thing like a
kind of nine to five andthen after you, you did
this or what was that like?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (22:45):
Yeah that's partly why I did, I took
that federal consulting jobthat I previously mentioned
that, regular consulting.
It's like Monday flying outMonday through Thursday,
60, 80 hours of work.
Federal consultingpays much less.
But it's about a nine, it's anine to five, if even like you,
(23:06):
if you're waiting on a federalclient and they're working five
hours a day, you're, you endup working five hours a day.
So yeah I, it that takingthat job gave me the
ability to do my own thing.
Since I, I wasn'tworking 12 hours a day,
Tanner Welsch (23:22):
okay.
For sure.
That totally makes
Shek-hung Keith Liao (23:24):
I will say, at the expense
of extra income I, Thejob was about 100, 000.
Which, it's decentfor PD, but I.
It's the average it salarycoming out of Cornell's
MBA is about 130, 000.
So I was way under that.
Tanner Welsch (23:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Thanks for sharing thewhat that was like.
I was curious, how, likethe hours and time and like
how you managed to get thisthing started and what you
were doing at the time.
Totally makes sense.
What was it like whenever youquit the consulting thing, you
opened up the gym full time.
Talk to us about that.
(24:02):
How did you go from there towhatever was next for you?
And what was it like?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (24:07):
yeah going from consulting to
do my own little business.
I basically I was workingat home at by that time, I
went from advising people onactually 9 billion in federal
funding I was on the GreatAmerican Outdoors Act project,
where, the government gave theNational Park Service 9 billion
(24:27):
of funding and we were helpingthem figure out how to use it.
Tanner Welsch (24:31):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (24:32):
So I went from that to Basically
working at the front desk inCrocs every single day, which
like my early employees willstill texting me like, Hey,
you still using those Crocsor like they'll send Crocs.
Tanner Welsch (24:48):
That's awesome.
Shek-hung (24:48):
I love Crocs and it's perfect for climbing.
Yeah, it went from big stuffto very small, more hands on
personal stuff, which, youknow I having a good balance
of the, like having somebusiness, but also some personal
face to face interaction.
Tanner Welsch (25:04):
For sure.
Shek- (25:04):
and just became more of a local business owner type.
Tanner Welsch (25:09):
Okay.
So you quit your kind of maingig with the consulting and then
you started doing the gym fulltime, you're wearing your Crocs.
And what was it like, goingfrom starting this own local
gym and business to basicallyeventually getting it to
where you hire employees.
Management and it'sstarting to run itself
(25:29):
and you can step away.
So what was that process like?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (25:33):
Yeah.
So I I mentioned earlierthat because my wife is a
veterinarian in the armyand we knew she was in
school, but she was underbasically an army scholarship.
So we knew that she would haveto be stationed elsewhere after
she graduated and that was.
(25:54):
When I opened the gym, it wasabout in about two years that we
knew we would have to do that.
So basically, I knew Iwould have about a year
at the gym to get the gymready to be made remotely.
So really, my goal was, geteverything running fine, write
down and develop processesthat other people can follow.
(26:16):
And then used.
That entire time to scout andsearch for a general manager to
which I who I trust to, to doall of them and fortunately I
did run into basically someonewho was a regular climber to.
I is now a fantastic generalmanager like I just, she's
(26:36):
really great she's local andI absolutely trust her and
she gets climbing so it'swhich is not easy to find in
Ithaca just because it's a notit's not a climbing community
it's not if you were to go toBoulder, Colorado, you would,
you could just turn around andfind a climber but in Ithaca,
there's not many climbers.
Tanner Welsch (26:55):
Okay.
That makes sense.
So was she actually like alocal that, that was very
frequent there and, you gotto know her and recognize her
coming in as a local and youguys just started talking and
this opportunity just came up.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (27:07):
Yeah, so she actually had asked to be a
route setter which is, you Everyweek we take down a section of
the holds from the walls, butwe do we take down the holes
from a section of the walls, andthen rearrange them to create
new routes for the climbers.
And she had asked to be one ofthose, and I had hired her for
(27:28):
that I basically already fromthat I already knew gotten to
know her and knew her styleand you know just could just
see that she was a responsibleperson who was passionate about
climbing which is very much wasexactly who I was looking for.
Tanner Welsch (27:42):
Perfect.
Okay, that makes sense.
Awesome, man.
That's great.
Cause one of my thoughtswas like how did you
actually hire somebody?
What's that process like?
And it was actually moreinternal than what I
thought it was going to be.
I thought you're going to haveto use some outside sources
and go through a bunch ofapplications, but it turns
out she was actually local andstarted as an employee with you.
(28:03):
And then the managementposition came open and
the rest is history.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (28:08):
Yeah the nice thing about that was
with the climbing gym is thatbasically all the locals, like
we, we know them and anytimewe need to hire we pretty
much just try to do it eitherinternally or with people, with
the regulars, because sincewe know them and there's no,
it's, it saves us the workof having to look through
applications come up with ajob description, look through
(28:29):
applications, interview people,and that, that saves a lot of
time For a small gym like us.
Tanner Welsch (28:34):
For sure.
Makes sense.
Okay, so you got the time frame,you and your wife are going
to be leaving in two years.
You found a general manager.
What's next, man?
What's next for you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (28:45):
Yeah that, with the general manager
I'm managing the gym remotely,but, my goal and also I think
what is ideal is to make Sure.
I keep developing processesthat allows me to.
Not be spending a lot of timedoing work on the gym, even if
it's like random remote stuff.
For example I still oversee thiskids summer camps because just
(29:10):
the process is very, there'sno like software that does
it all for you that does it.
That makes sense likefinancially for us.
But eventually I'llautomate that away as well.
So basically right now Ispend about five hours,
five to maybe 10 hours max.
If it's a busy week of likekids camps, I spend about
(29:30):
five hours a week doinggym administrative work.
So from that, I was like,Okay, I have a little too
much time on my hands.
I came across Potrero Group,which is the boutique consulting
firm I was talking about.
And they do a lot of work withthe National Park Service.
They do a lot of work withNational Park Service basically
partners who fundraise for them.
(29:52):
And just with my experiencebeing an internal consultant
and then being a federalconsultant for the National
Park Service, I applied tothe, job website, and they were
like, okay, we actually need acontract consultant, which is
perfect for me because I'm notlooking for a full time job.
I'm looking for somethingthat'll, keep me busy, give
(30:14):
me a little extra money.
And then get me back intothe big business side.
I probably spend about 15 hoursa week working there currently.
Tanner Welsch (30:26):
Was that were you like searching for a
consulting kind of job and youwere looking to see what was
available because you had a lotmore time on your hands since
this was running itself andthis is actually what you found
and it ended up working out.
S (30:40):
Actually, I wasn't searching.
I was just on LinkedIn andthe National Park Service
internal consulting team.
The group, there's, we havean alumni group on LinkedIn,
and portrayal group, they hadposted in there looking for
another consultant, so I just,I was like, oh, that seems
interesting, and I applied,so it was more just, I think,
(31:03):
just happened to be goodluck and timing with that,
and it ended up, reallywell, and I think it works
out for them, becausethey're also a, they're a
boutique consulting point.
They're not big in, certainprojects don't land.
They can't just keep asalaried consultant on
full time, but I'm fine.
If I'm fine, like not workingfor a week and because my gym
(31:24):
still gives me the income.
Tanner Welsch (31:26):
Definitely.
This other job that youmentioned or kind of business,
I'm, I don't know how topronounce it, but edify.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (31:35):
oh yeah.
Edify.
Yeah.
Tanner Welsch (31:36):
Okay.
Edify.
How does that fit intoall this timeline?
Like, how did that start?
Yeah.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (31:42):
Yeah I, at the national park service
internship they placed me atone park with another consultant
who was also doing internship.
And I we got along really well.
We've, we thought we workeda lot really well together.
At the end of the summer Okay.
we worked along great together.
We, our skills reallythey don't match.
(32:04):
They actually covereach other's weaknesses.
We were like, we should startsomething together, and we went
our separate ways found, gotthese jobs but at my consult
federal consulting job I hadto do a lot of data analytics.
To analyze data.
And I ended up like learningPython and all sorts of
different data analytics.
(32:25):
And I was like, this issomething that the MBA program
doesn't cover, but it's reallyneeded in real life on the job.
So I texted him, I was like,Hey, do you need to do this?
And he said, Yeah Icould learn it as well.
And it seems really useful.
So basically I taught it tohim and then we were like,
okay, this seems very useful.
(32:46):
So we startedteaching it to others.
And basically there weformed an education company
Tanner Welsch (32:53):
cool.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (32:53):
yeah and then we've changed it and
pivoted the company, and nowwe're basically making education
gamifying it a little bit more.
Tanner Welsch (33:02):
Okay, so if you could, say maybe in a sentence
or two what Aedify is or doesor offers, what would that be?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (33:12):
Right now we offer a text based like
Dungeons and Dragons like gamethat teaches personal finance.
We use it in conjunctionwith just teaching
people personal finances.
The game is basicallythe homework.
And then we're working on thedevelopment of a video game
that teaches personal finance.
Tanner Welsch (33:33):
very cool.
That's interesting, man.
Shek-h (33:36):
Might have been a little bit more than a sentence,
Tanner Welsch (33:38):
That's okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (33:39):
then this would be what gamifying
stuff that teaches peoplelike real life skills.
Tanner Welsch (33:45):
For sure.
That's brilliant.
I love it.
What are some...
Really challenges that youhad, going from PT school,
going through everything thatwe talked about to getting to
where you are today and how didyou overcome these challenges
Shek-hung Keith Liao (34:00):
Yeah, I'd say one is really,
it is hard to give up PT.
Like I didn't hate PT.
I there's a, I have a lotof criticisms maybe of
the healthcare industry oreven, and I definitely know
I didn't want to work init for another 20 years.
But I thought I was areally good PT, I still
(34:22):
think I'm a really goodPT, and I still enjoy it.
And I actually think I don'tknow, this might sound, I
hope this doesn't come acrossas arrogant, but I think I
have a lot of talent in PTthat I thought, I'm like,
am I wasting this talent, orMy I should I be treating
patients like I'm great at it.
So really hard to getover that mentally.
(34:46):
And honestly, it's more justtime like I, I always even in
MBA school, I still saw myselfas a physical therapist, not
as an MBA or business students.
It's been what like fouryears since I practiced.
And I never, I almost forgetthat I like I rarely introduce
(35:07):
myself as a physical therapistanymore, just because I'm not.
Oh, but I do still takecontinuing courses I still
keep my license, and eventhough I don't have a
intention to treat anymore Istill like to be involved and
stay updated in the field sothat does help a little bit.
Tanner Welsch (35:26):
For sure.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (35:27):
And I think also understanding that.
The skills in PT translateswell to business, even if the
business world doesn't see that.
I think it's The other wayaround, we provide a lot
of value because, I'm goinginto these businesses.
I'm telling them, I'm likebasically assessing the problems
and telling them, here's whatI recommend you should do.
(35:50):
And we do that, like eight to10 times a day with patients.
I don't know, maybe at someof the worst places like 20,
30 times but but yeah, so andjust even the client management
skills, how do you handle adifficult clients like We've
handled it way more thanany other business person.
And then also bringing in theevidence based mindset, like
(36:13):
we are trained, like to lookat the data, to look at the
papers and evidence reallyto understand, Hey, this is
why something works and not.
And that's something I feellike the business field is
tries to do, but they don'thave a doctorate in it, Right.
They don't have.
Three, three years ofeducation to do to learn
that and I'm coming in andI'm bringing in say, I think
(36:35):
I add a PT is really justadd an extra dimension.
And that's that way I don't feellike my education and PT or my
experience as a PT is wasted.
I just don't use.
I just don't practiceclinically, but it's
still valuable experienceto my current work.
Tanner Welsch (36:53):
Absolutely.
And I just want to emphasizethat, Yeah, you, I think
relate to a lot of peoplebecause you're identifying
with this identity asa physical therapist.
It's got to be hard to letgo because we've invested so
much time and energy into it.
But the point is that you can doit and you do have transferable
(37:13):
skills to make it happen.
It's important for listenersto know and understand
that these transferableskills are really valuable.
And as many other guests haveexplained and shared that
have transitioned to severaldifferent career types and
different, jobs and they'redoing different things and
have different lifestyles.
(37:35):
The interpersonal skills that wegain being therapist actually
end up being very valuabletransitioning to other careers.
So if it's something you'rethinking about, I'd be happy
to talk with you about itand help you in any way I can
to maybe clarify a directionfor you or help you get
where you're wanting to go.
So feel free to, youhop on the rehab rebels.
(37:59):
org.
website and click on contact,or you can shoot me an email
at Tanner at RehabRebels.
org and I'll get you, get anemail and would be happy to
talk to anybody that, wantsa transition, but maybe they
just don't know how or whereto start or where to go.
(38:20):
Or maybe they're alongthe process and having
some difficulties.
Yeah, feel free to reach out.
Would love to helpany way I can.
So get after it.
Shek-hung Kei (38:29):
Yeah, definitely.
I wish the business worldwould value PTs more.
That's like I could go onfor a long time about the
lack of respect physicaltherapists get in that setting.
Yeah.
Tanner Welsch (38:41):
For sure.
I think they get a lackof respect pretty much
everywhere to be honest.
and Some of it too, Keith,is people just don't know
what exactly we do and it'sa shame and that's why I
think maybe we aren't asrespected as we should be and
people don't see the valuethat we can bring as PTs or
transitioning to other careersor whatever, so what does your
(39:06):
day to day life look like?
Uh huh, uh huh, mm hmm, Huh,
Shek-hung Keith Liao (39:08):
So day to day, let's, so usually
because I have so manydifferent things, it's, I don't
really have a set schedule,which I generally prefer.
But I do start every morningwith 30 minutes of stretching
and therapeutic exercises andthat's because I do attribute
(39:28):
quitting PT and taking a deskjob to my current back pain
which, I don't know how muchit has to do with just aging,
congenital neural, neuralforamen, that kind of stuff, but
I do have a few herniations, Ialways struggle with stretching
but, Then I do about a 15minutes to an hour of Cayuga
Climbs work and that involvesbasically I do the accounting.
(39:52):
I look at the previous daytransactions and it's just
see how many visitors we got.
I post on our social media.
And then I take care ofemails and like just the
emails that come to me.
And then throughout the day.
I'm sometimes I'm textingmy gentleman manager
like back and forth.
So that's Not, it'shard to quantify that.
(40:14):
And then I'll usually dowith one to two hours of
Aedify work where I'm either,working on the product or
finding a new customer ordesigning a new curriculum
or looking or ask or writingapplications for VCs to fund us.
And then about three to fivehours of portrayal group
consulting work which is becausethey're, they are West Coast
(40:36):
based and I'm on the EastCoast, which is why no one.
No one is really working forthem until about noon, so
they don't work really well.
That's why I do all my ownwork in the morning and
they work in the afternoon.
Tanner Welsch (40:49):
That makes sense.
Who do you feel would bea good, fit for being a
consultant or a business owner?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (40:56):
Yeah.
I'd say business owner isit's tough to tell like the
first six months I openeda gym, I felt like I always
had a little stress likewhat if something goes wrong.
And like it was always thereat the back of my mind so
I, I do feel like it canbe stressful and like I
am always texting people.
(41:17):
I don't I guess notalways texting people.
It's just that I will.
Get a text at like 10pm orsomething and I don't mind
that myself because it's mybusiness but consultant wise
I'd say most physical therapistshave the skills and generally
the personality to become afantastic consultants, like for
the reasons I mentioned earlierBut I think like consultant
(41:41):
and MBA is it's I almost viewedit almost interchangeably.
Tanner Welsch (41:45):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (41:46):
And it's, I'd say, don't be intimidated
by the business side of it.
It's not actually, dependingon the demographics, it's,
there's often an easier pathto be an MBA consultant.
Asian males are not inthe easier demographic for
Recruiting for an MBA or MBAadmissions, I'd say, I don't
(42:09):
know how that comes acrossbasically in MBA programs.
They have somethingspecifically called
underrepresented minorities,There's like special
programs for like that givesspecial scholarships and
considerations and even preMBA opportunities for them.
So it's more like that.
I'm not like talking some weirdlike affirmative action, like
(42:32):
political stance or anything.
It's more that there are a lot.
I do find some women maybewho aren't already in business
are intimidated by thethought of an MBA, but it's
actually a very welcomingenvironment that, and there's
like specific scholarshipscalled the Forte Foundation,
where almost like all womenwho apply to an MBA get, get
(42:53):
like a 50, 000 scholarship.
It's more, I'm more referringto stuff like that, that where
they, there's a, it helpsthem get rid of that barrier.
Tanner Welsch (43:03):
Okay.
Thanks for theclarification, man.
Cause I was just I reallydidn't know what you meant
and I probably should
Shek-hung Keith Liao (43:08):
Yeah,
Tanner Welsch (43:09):
well, what
Shek-hung (43:09):
like, oh man, I feel like, I didn't elaborate.
Yeah, no, and then just,it's just there are a lot
of Asian males and whitemales in an anime program.
So there's no specificscholarships for white
male or Asian male versus.
Tanner Welsch (43:23):
For sure.
Thanks for clarifying that okay.
So that makes sense.
That makes sense.
That's something that youpointed out to that a lot
of business owners that haveinterviewed mentioned is pretty
much, you're available allthe time to basically manage
your clients or your business.
And so I think that's somethingthat, It's important to
(43:44):
recognize like it's not just anine to five and then at five
you can leave everything atyour job and then just go home.
It can come with you at times.
Have you found that tobe challenging or, are
there certain resourcesor tools that you've used
to help you manage that?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (44:00):
yeah, I think my own personality is
more okay with that, because,on the other hand, I don't
have to sit at a desk 40 hoursa day, or 40 hours a week.
And I think it does help that?
it's like if itwas someone else's.
If I was a consultant andsomeone was texting me at 10 p.
m.
at night, I wouldn't be happy.
(44:22):
And that, that doeshappen in consulting.
So I think it's a, it is alittle different when it's your
business, but you do have tohave the personality for it.
But I'm not sure exactlyhow to gauge that.
Tanner Welsch (44:34):
for sure.
Something I realized is.
It was a really a struggle forme at first because you know
shifting because I do homehealth physical therapy So
sometimes we do have some thingsthat come up that may be after
five that we got to deal withlike scheduling patients, but
You know for me it was reallybeing doing a shift from being
(44:56):
a PT to you know Trying to getthis business off the ground,
you know running rehab rebelsand going back and forth and
I've gotten I feel like it'sbecome more comfortable, but
it was definitely like, mypersonality type is I want
to stick to one thing, finishit all, and then go to the
other thing and not do thisbounce back and forth thing.
So that was a challenge for me.
(45:18):
And I, if there's anything Icould, maybe help with that has
helped me is really just tryingto keep things organized within
Your computer or your phone,like I have, tabs specifically
for rehab rebel stuff.
And then I have, a separatesection for home health.
And so I, it can, it's easy forme to get where I need to go.
(45:40):
That way it's easier forme to switch back and forth
between these things andkeep things organized.
So that's my little 10cents on the trying to
juggle a business and thenwork like a primary job.
So yeah.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (45:52):
Yeah, definitely, especially
after seeing patients allday, sometimes your brain
just needs to relax, right?
Tanner Welsch (45:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
What have you realizedfrom this journey, Keith,
from PT school going fromPT school to where you are
today, or maybe some lifeawareness, some realizations
that, that you've gainedthat you didn't have before?
Shek-h (46:13):
Yeah I think ultimately, I did, I got away from
PT because I wanted to.
That's still, there was a lotof reasons like financial, I,
I can talk for 30 minutes aboutall the detailed reasons, but
ultimately, I think lookingback, it was just I wanted to do
it and I don't regret it at all.
(46:36):
And I'm not thinking I'mnot going back and looking
at Oh, how much money couldI have if I'd stayed in PT
and open my own practice?
Versus now I'm not doingthose calculations.
I like I'm very happy with thepath I've chosen and I'm very
glad I just Decided to do it.
And I didn't get stucksaying, Oh, how I'm taking
(46:58):
out this massive loan or likeI'm spending two years of
no income while paying theschool a bunch of income.
And then, ultimately, likeI said, I met my wife there,
which I, I would not havemet if I didn't go to an
MBA and really open upmy social circles as well.
Yeah, it's just like I gotto know a whole bunch of
(47:19):
different people that aren'tPTs and now they work in all
sorts of different fieldsand just really made my
life a lot more interesting.
Tanner Welsch (47:27):
For sure.
So it was worth it, man.
It was an adventureand it was worth it.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (47:32):
Yeah, I mean I think just especially
as financially minded personlike I do think about that a
lot, whether something's worthit but I think just I'm glad I
didn't over overly analyze it.
as a from afinancial standpoint.
Tanner Welsch (47:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or exactly.
That's what I was thinking,or like overly emphasize
the finances part of itbecause there's other
non maybe quantifiable.
Things that came out of it thataren't really related to the
finance and how can you put ahow can you put a value on it?
Like you meetingyour wife, right?
So
Shek-hung Keith Liao (48:07):
Exactly.
Tanner Welsch (48:08):
that's really cool I just have a couple
more questions for you andthen we'll wrap up here.
Do you have any bookrecommendations for?
Rehab rebel listeners that youknow, maybe want to start their
own business or transitionto something different or
create their own PT business
Shek-hung (48:27):
Book recommendations.
No, I actually, I don't generalI generally read fiction.
Tanner Welsch (48:32):
Okay.
Okay.
Shek-hu (48:34):
Yeah, so I almost don't read nonfiction books.
I find fiction helps meescape from reality and
while still Bringing abit of a social thing.
And hence, that's actuallywhy I'm making video games
that teach people things,because I like the blend of
like fiction, but it's still,you still learn from it.
Tanner Welsch (48:52):
If there's anybody that maybe is
wanting to reach out to youand, ask you some questions
or just connect with you,where can they find you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (48:59):
Yeah.
Let me see.
Tanner Welsch (49:02):
Like LinkedIn or do you have a social,
presence or what do you think?
Shek-hung (49:08):
Actually, they could just email me at keith.
lau at gmail.
com k e i t h dotl i a o at gmail.
com.
mean, that's theeasiest way, yeah.
Tanner Welsch (49:21):
If you reach out to Keith, be sure to
include rehab rebels connectionin the subject line or
in the body of the email.
So he knows how youheard about him.
Keith, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
It's really been a pleasure.
Enjoyed talking to you andyou sharing your story.
Shek-hung Keith Li (49:40):
Sounds good.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed talking toyou and like hopefully keep
in touch and look forwardto your episodes coming out.
So
Tanner Welsch (49:49):
Thank you.
Cool.
All right.
Have a good day and havea good weekend, Keith.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (49:52):
Yep.
Thanks.
Yep.
Bye.
RR Ourto (49:54):
Thank you for listening to the
Rehab Rebels podcast.
If this podcast was useful,make sure to hit that subscribe
button and leave a review.
For more information abouttransitioning to alternative
careers, head to rehabrebels.orgor follow us on Instagram
at Rehab Rebels Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
Are you a rehab professionalready to transition to an
alternative career, hearinspiring stories from
others just like you, andlearn the best ways to
bridge your career gap?
This podcast has you covered.
Now, here's your host,Doctor of Physical Therapy
and podcaster Tanner Welsch
Tanner Welsch (00:20):
Keith, we'll just start off
like we do with everyone.
Just imagine, like we'resitting across from each other
at a coffee shop, having a,just a simple conversation.
It's going to be very similarto the discovery call and the
goal is just really to captureyour journey and story and get
a flow going and go from there.
, I'll just have you Keithintroduce who you are,
(00:42):
where you're from, whereyou went to PT school and
what you're currently doing.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (00:47):
Sure.
So I'm Keith I, I wentto PT school in Boston.
Institute of Health Professions.
I grew up in California gotan undergrad in economics
at UCLA, and then wentto Boston for PT school.
And then I also have an MBAfrom Cornell University.
Tanner Welsch (01:10):
Congrats, man,
Shek-hung Keith Liao (01:11):
A lot of time schooling.
Tanner Welsch (01:13):
for sure.
So what are you currentlydoing right now?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (01:18):
Yeah.
So right now, I think if there'sone word to describe me, or
at least one phrase, I wouldsay, I always respond and say
I'm a serial entrepreneur.
And that's because I'm doinga few things right now.
I am managing a climbinggym that I started remotely.
So I have a General manageron site that manages it and
(01:40):
I, I take care of some ofthe administrative duties.
And then I am a contractconsultant at a, I would
say a boutique consultingfirm in the public lands
and sustainability industry.
Tanner Welsch (01:53):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (01:54):
And then I've also founded a
company called Edify, whichis an education startup.
And we're focused on gamifyingeducation starting with
Gamifying personal finance.
Tanner Welsch (02:06):
Cool.
You wear a lot of hats
Shek-hung Keith Liao (02:11):
Yes.
Yes.
And I guess you could say I'malso an army military spouse.
So that maybe might bringinto context like why I've
managed the gym remotelyrather than in person.
Tanner Welsch (02:22):
For sure.
That totally makes sense.
Okay.
So that's what you're doing.
Now let's bridge the gap with,Starting back when you
graduated PT school, whatdid you start doing after
you graduated PT school?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (02:35):
yeah, so once when I graduated I've
always wanted to thought thatI once I was felt ready, I
would open up my own clinic.
But I didn't know whereto open the clinic.
I.
I thought Boston might beokay, but just wasn't really
sure and I knew, I wasn'tready as a new grad to do it.
Tanner Welsch (02:57):
Sure.
Shek-hung Keith L (02:58):
I ended up...
At the clinic that I wasbasically doing that last
internship with I met atraveling PT who, told me,
oh, hey, you should trytraveling it, pays more you
get to see different places.
And so I'm thinking,oh, this is great.
You know, I make more money.
And then I also.
maybe have a chance to scoutout different areas of the
(03:21):
United States where I canopen up a practice or just be
exposed to a little bit more.
Tanner Welsch (03:27):
For sure.
what made you, like, howdid you know you wanted
to open up a practice likearound PT school time?
Like, how did you know that?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (03:35):
Yeah.
My undergrad was ineconomics major in
economics and accountings.
So I've always been at leastsomewhat business minded.
And just go before goinginto PT school, that was.
I knew I was interested inkind of medicine now orthopedic
stuff and helping people throughtheir, musculoskeletal problems.
(03:56):
But I also knew I wanted tomaybe have the chance to flex
my business mindset and alsoadd that extra component to PT.
Tanner Welsch (04:07):
For sure.
So did you go like fromyour accounting economics
degree right into PT school?
Shek- (04:15):
No, so technically PT was already my second career.
Tanner Welsch (04:19):
Okay.
Shek-hun (04:20):
I graduated and was an accountant for, I think,
two to three months, and itwas mind numbingly boring.
I sat at a desk for eighthours, I don't know, like
clicking on numbers and stuff.
And especially as a collegegrad, at that level,
it's just very thought,it's very thoughtless.
(04:42):
And I always liked working out.
So I was like, I'm sittingat a desk 40 hours a week.
I want to get out there andtalk to people from my job.
And I got a personaltraining certification
became a personal trainer.
And then that was for abouta year and then I got a job
as a physical therapy aidfor about a year and then
in the midst of all thatI was like, Oh, I should
(05:04):
become a physical therapist.
Tanner Welsch (05:06):
Okay.
So it was like a bit ofa transition into, to
getting to PT school.
It wasn't your firstchoice right away.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (05:12):
Yeah.
Tanner Welsch (05:14):
Okay.
So you graduate PT school, youwant to open a business, really
not sure where I imagine you're,you're working for a while
as a PT, what's next for you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (05:24):
Yeah, that's, that was my question
before I got my MBA was, Ipracticed for about two, maybe
almost three years at thatpoint so I felt comfortable.
As a physical therapist,like I felt okay I can treat
a patient pretty decently.
And I started looking into anOCS, or something just to
(05:49):
take me to the next level.
I'd taken a bit of continuinged courses by that time.
And I that just didn'tfeel it didn't feel
right to me at the OCS.
I don't know there's thereare there's a study in
JOSPT that shows there'sno correlation between a
residency and better outcomes.
(06:11):
I don't know if youread that study it.
It says fellowships have betteroutcome, but people who've
done fellowships but peoplewho've done residencies or
have the certification doesn't.
necessarily have betteroutcomes, they actually have
worse outcomes than a new grad.
Yeah that's the deal with SPT.
It didn't inspire me.
It was too much work and toomuch money to do it while
(06:31):
you don't get paid more.
And I didn't feel like an OCSor something like that would
allow me to market myself betterif I opened a clinic as well.
Tanner Welsch (06:42):
Sure.
Sh (06:43):
Basically, I started looking at alternative options then.
Tanner Welsch (06:48):
Okay.
You realize this OCS thing'snot really a good idea.
It didn't really make sense.
What are these other optionsthat you're looking at and
what brought them to the table?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (06:57):
Yeah, so I was using Epic, the macro
documentation at that time.
And I was getting, I wasactually really good at it.
I created all all these smartphrases that are where I would
type up my documentation,like really quickly.
And then I was a littleangry at just like how
poorly designed it was.
So I like started browsingon their website for
like jobs with them.
(07:19):
I applied to a bunchand never got a reply.
But that kind of at least putme on the, okay here's maybe
some non clinical healthcarejobs I should look at.
So I started looking at thatand then I'm not really sure
how I landed on an MBA, I think.
I think most people know thedegree at least, so I probably
started looking and I'm like,okay, these are the average
(07:40):
salaries coming out of an MBA.
Seems like it's one of the fewthings that Makes it worth it.
Like one of the few, if I wentback and I don't know, got
a public some other master'sdegree might not be worth
the money just because wedo make okay money as PTs.
I'd say okay.
So you get above that.
It does take a little bit more.
(08:02):
And just my natural interest inbusiness made, I think it, it
was, it seemed like a good fit.
So
Tanner Welsch (08:08):
for sure.
Makes sense.
Okay.
And that's, that was bridgingthe gap to getting the MBA.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (08:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was still, the, obviouslythe application processes.
Yeah.
Quite involved, I would say.
So
Tanner Welsch (08:25):
So I, I'm curious, like what, I imagine
it was really competitivetrying to get into, such
a prestigious school.
Can you share some light on,maybe a little bit about what
the process was like, or maybewhat helped you stand out for
those that maybe you're lookingto getting, wanting MBA as well.
Oh, wow.
Shek-hung (08:44):
yeah, so the process is it's going into it.
I didn't know about the process.
And, for physical therapyschool, we, it's tough to get
into physical therapy school,you need good grades, you need
the volunteer hours, and thenyou need good GRE, I think.
But you can, you just applythrough PT CAS, and Honestly,
(09:07):
the amount, what kind of schoolyou go to doesn't, I don't
think has a big difference.
And I think you can getin off a high GRE score.
But I will say like I hada pretty high GRE score.
I had four prereqs donegoing into PT school and
Four out of 13, right?
So I applied to 20different schools through
(09:28):
BTCAS and got in about 10.
And so I just, it was justa pure numbers approach.
But then I'll, I guess onthe other hand with the
MBA program that I thoughtI could do the same.
And I took the GMAT I spentI, basically, because I was
between travel contracts, I hada month, I just basically spent
eight hours a day studying forthe GMAT for a month and again,
(09:49):
got a pretty good score on itthat I felt like I could apply
to any school and I basicallyapplied to the top ten schools,
just and it didn't work at all,
Tanner Welsch (10:01):
Oh
Shek-hung Keith Liao (10:02):
Yeah, you really can't get in
just off a high score or youthere's a lot of networking,
you actually literally haveto call up like two, three
students at each school, talkto them and then mention them
in your essay, be like, Okay,I talked to that student.
This is why I wantto go to this school.
And if you do, if you have todo that for 10 schools, that's
(10:24):
a lot of additional work.
Yeah.
That's the process.
It's still an applicationand there's some like videos
and stuff, but it involvesa lot of like visitation
and networking that wasn'tpart of the PT process.
Tanner Welsch (10:38):
Definitely, that is something brand
new that we don't run intoin the kind of PT realm.
On a prior episode with Adam,he was in the IT realm and he's
explained something very similarthat you're expected to go on
to LinkedIn or these other kindof networks and have a coffee
(11:00):
chat, talking to employees.
They're at these businessesthat you want to get
into and learn more aboutthe company, et cetera.
So it's a very big networkingheavy aspect to be able to get
into that particular company.
And in this case, it's the samefor getting into that school.
So that's really unique.
Thank you for sharing that
Shek-hung Keith Liao (11:19):
Yeah, I actually the coffee chat
is a very good term for that.
That's, I think, also calledlike that in the MBA world.
Tanner Welsch (11:27):
for sure.
Okay.
So you did the coffee chats anddid some networking and is that
really what do you feel got youinto the Cornell MBA program?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (11:39):
So I think I basically applied to
the first, the top 10 and Ididn't get into a single one.
I got an interview at one place,the 10th, the number 10th ranked
place, and I didn't accept itbeyond that I was on the wait
list MBA programs, they havethree rounds to get in per year.
So there's like roundone, round two, where it's
(12:01):
like fall, spring, andthen like late spring.
Tanner Welsch (12:04):
Mm.
Shek-hung Ke (12:04):
Oh, that was fall.
That was the first round.
And then the second round,I was like I clearly
don't know what I'm doing.
Tanner Welsch (12:11):
Mm.
Shek-hung Ke (12:12):
And I hired an MBA admissions consultant.
Who basically told me all thethings, she was like, oh, you
have to talk to some currentstudents and she introduced
me to some current students,I put them in my essays.
And then I started gettinginto schools but she also
did manage my, I'd sayexpectations on where the type
(12:33):
of schools I should apply to.
Tanner Welsch (12:35):
Mm.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (12:36):
Just coming out of PT school
they're telling you, you gota doctorate, they really try
to loft up what the professionis, and having got the MGH,
which, it's a decent hospital.
Just it's not quite as valuedoutside of the PT realm,
the me or the way you work.
Yeah, just, she told me to setmy sights more on the 10 to
(12:59):
20 rank school range in that,that by itself helped a lot.
Tanner Welsch (13:04):
Okay.
Cool.
That's, so that's gettinginto the MBA at Cornell.
How long was that program?
What was that like?
And then we'll lead intokind of what was after
the program for you.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (13:17):
Yeah.
So the program was two years.
And between the first andsecond year, there's a three
month internship that's paid.
It's a, it's, it's two years,but not technically two years,
because it's, that threemonth internship is well paid.
For me I took an internshipat the National Park Service
doing internal consulting.
(13:37):
Unfortunately, that wasa, probably, that was the
lowest paid internship,probably, in the NEA program.
Tanner Welsch (13:45):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (13:45):
Probably.
But it was too good.
It's National Park Serviceis too good to pass up.
I was like, this is anopportunity of a lifetime.
So the school actually paidme an extra stipend because it
was such a low pay internship.
They wanted to make up for it.
Tanner Welsch (14:02):
Cool.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (14:04):
Yeah, so that, that's fantastic, right?
That's great that the schoolkind of support me right
so that's something that Ifound, I read really much
appreciated that appreciatedthat I gave up a bit, but to
still take on, I would saylike a very good internship
very prestigious internship
Tanner Welsch (14:23):
For sure.
Shek-hun (14:25):
in school itself it's.
I'd say the first six monthsor so, it's almost all,
it's basically a six monthpreparation into how to
interview and apply for jobs.
It's not academic at all,like really academics are put
(14:45):
to the side, like you haveto take these core classes
that do give you the generalbusiness understanding,
but that's not the emphasisis practicing interviews.
It was And like I so inconsulting to when you
interview for a consultinginternship or job, you have
to go through somethingcalled a case interview.
(15:07):
And it's where they giveyou they'll say this company
wants to develop a newproduct in Latin America.
Should they do it or not?
And then they give you likecharts and some stuff, and
then you have to spend thenext 10 minutes explaining
your reason for why theyshould do that or not.
(15:27):
Very difficult, right?
It's very on the spot.
There's a.
Some crazy mental math youhave to do to interpret the
charts and like equations.
And I spent, I did 90practice interviews for those.
The first semester, so in eachpractice interview probably
takes about 30 minutes.
So that's just the firstsemester of school.
(15:47):
That's in addition tojust regular, standard
interviews as well.
Tanner Welsch (15:51):
Sure.
So this is like a lot ofpreparation for you for
the, at least the initialpart of the MBA program.
And then you did the internshipin the middle, right?
And then the last part ismore kind of coursework.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (16:06):
Yeah, I'd say last part that the
second half of the MBA, thesecond year, it's Depending on
whether you've landed a job, somany interns at the end of the
summer, the company will say,Hey, we want you to come back.
Here's our offer to you.
And especially those people,once they've accepted the offer,
all they have to do is pass andthey have a high paying job.
(16:29):
Oh, there's twoschools of people.
One school people will, theyjust, they end up going,
they, they spend their bonus.
The bonus is like 30to 50, 000, right?
So that's the signing bonus.
And they'll spend it onlike vacations and just
eating at fancy restaurants.
(16:49):
And then there's the otherschool of people which I felt
like I probably more belong towas take as many classes as we
can because it's the same costand we're not going to, likely
not going to be in school again.
Really like I, I took likeas many courses as I could.
I even took stuff likeI took a lot of health
administration courses withanother Cornell program, and
(17:12):
I took caving, and random flyfishing, and that, everything
just Cornell had to offer.
So, yeah,
Tanner Wels (17:18):
That's really cool.
I didn't know that therewas such a variety at
in the MBA program ofcourses you could take.
So that's cool.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (17:25):
yeah, I think the nice thing about
a school like Cornell is thatIt does allow you to take
courses with the undergrads orlike with the other programs
so versus maybe a smaller,more specialized school.
Tanner Welsch (17:41):
Okay.
It makes sense.
So you graduate with the MBAget us to whatever's next.
I don't know if the climbinggym was actually next in
order or what is next for you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (17:53):
Yeah, so after that was, I was not
one of the people who actuallyhad a return offer from the
internship and simply that'sbecause the National Park
Service doesn't have that.
It's purely an internshipI was applying to jobs.
I didn't really want to dothe traditional consulting.
The traditional consultingis you fly out one day
(18:14):
to the client site, youreturn Thursday every week.
You work 60 to 80 hours.
So people do that forabout two to three years
and then typically theyleave and then take a job
at a corporate company.
Solaris was fantastic.
It's about 180, 000 with50, 000 sign on bonus and
like about 20, 000 to 30,000 in yearly bonuses.
(18:39):
So it makes up for the amountof work you have to do,
but I didn't feel like it.
I didn't feel like I wantedto put myself through that.
Tanner Welsch (18:48):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (18:49):
So I ended up actually taking a
federal consulting job witha big federal contractor
called Booz Allen Hamilton,where they put me on the
National Park Service team.
Really, I.
Basically used my experiencefrom the internship to land
this job, and the locationwas in Denver, so I moved
out there, and basically.
(19:11):
Took a job working with them.
Tanner Welsch (19:13):
Okay, that makes sense.
Nice.
Okay, you got the contractthe contract gig all set up.
When did this climbinggym come into play?
What's next here?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (19:23):
yeah.
Oh Bruce Allen Hamiltonwasn't the contract.
It was a salary regularsalaried consultant gig.
Just so I did that fortwo years, COVID came.
I came back.
I went back to Cornell becausemy girlfriend at the time was
still going to school there.
So I, with COVID, I wasable to work remotely and
(19:44):
not have to work in Denver.
Went back to the Cornellarea and she is my wife now,
by the way yeah thank you.
I'd say, honestly, that'sprobably the, my best outcome
from the MBA, actually, justmeeting.
Yeah, I'm not sayingthis because I think she
will listen to this, butAnyways, so I went back to, to,
to Ithaca, where Cornell is.
(20:05):
And I'm just a big rockclimber myself and with COVID
shutting down and then theCornell has a very small
climbing gym that's very busy.
There just wasn't anotherclimbing gym in the area.
So I saw that as anopportunity to just.
open one myself.
And fortunately, I found adecent location pretty quickly.
(20:26):
And this kind of justwent down that path.
Tanner Welsch (20:29):
It, was that kind of your main...
I guess income sourcewhenever you went back to
the Cornell area, to bewith your girlfriend, was
that kind of your main job,Keith and income, or were
you doing other things too?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (20:44):
so I, because I was able to work
remotely in my consulting job,I didn't have to quit until
the day the gym open basically.
So the entire time it was underconstruction or even just I was
looking for places I was makingthe consulting income remotely
so that was very beneficial.
(21:05):
I quit, like I had set I setmy quit date the day the gym
open, so I didn't have kindof a break in the income.
Tanner Welsch (21:13):
perfect.
That's smart.
Like nice, smoothtransition there.
What was your lifelike at that time?
Or what was your schedule life?
That seems like a lot to juggle.
You're doing the consultingand then you're trying to
open up this climbing gym.
Can you talk to us a littlebit about, What that was
like, maybe some struggles youhad going through that time.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (21:29):
Yeah I.
It's very expensive toopen a climbing gym.
And fortunately, Ithacais a small community, so
I don't have to, I didn'thave to open a giant one.
I was starting small.
It's just bouldering, no ropesa community oriented gym.
But the way I did I basically.
Open it at about half or evena third the cost of what it
(21:52):
takes to normally open one.
And that's because I drilledevery single hole in the
climbing walls myself.
Well, My wife alsohelped me do that.
And it's about 8, 000 holes.
So 8, 000 half inch holes intothree quarter inch plywood.
Tanner Welsch (22:09):
Oh my gosh.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (22:10):
Yeah, so that saved me a lot of
money, but basically I wouldfinish my job for the day and
doing the consulting work.
And then I would go to, theplace where the gym that we
rented out, which, obviouslywasn't open then at night.
And then me and my wife, agirlfriend at that time would
drill holes.
And for two to three hours,like we'd watch a Netflix
(22:32):
movie while doing it.
so, And then.
Basically, I did alot of it myself,
Tanner Welsch (22:37):
was your consulting thing like a
kind of nine to five andthen after you, you did
this or what was that like?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (22:45):
Yeah that's partly why I did, I took
that federal consulting jobthat I previously mentioned
that, regular consulting.
It's like Monday flying outMonday through Thursday,
60, 80 hours of work.
Federal consultingpays much less.
But it's about a nine, it's anine to five, if even like you,
(23:06):
if you're waiting on a federalclient and they're working five
hours a day, you're, you endup working five hours a day.
So yeah I, it that takingthat job gave me the
ability to do my own thing.
Since I, I wasn'tworking 12 hours a day,
Tanner Welsch (23:22):
okay.
For sure.
That totally makes
Shek-hung Keith Liao (23:24):
I will say, at the expense
of extra income I, Thejob was about 100, 000.
Which, it's decentfor PD, but I.
It's the average it salarycoming out of Cornell's
MBA is about 130, 000.
So I was way under that.
Tanner Welsch (23:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Thanks for sharing thewhat that was like.
I was curious, how, likethe hours and time and like
how you managed to get thisthing started and what you
were doing at the time.
Totally makes sense.
What was it like whenever youquit the consulting thing, you
opened up the gym full time.
Talk to us about that.
(24:02):
How did you go from there towhatever was next for you?
And what was it like?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (24:07):
yeah going from consulting to
do my own little business.
I basically I was workingat home at by that time, I
went from advising people onactually 9 billion in federal
funding I was on the GreatAmerican Outdoors Act project,
where, the government gave theNational Park Service 9 billion
(24:27):
of funding and we were helpingthem figure out how to use it.
Tanner Welsch (24:31):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (24:32):
So I went from that to Basically
working at the front desk inCrocs every single day, which
like my early employees willstill texting me like, Hey,
you still using those Crocsor like they'll send Crocs.
Tanner Welsch (24:48):
That's awesome.
Shek-hung (24:48):
I love Crocs and it's perfect for climbing.
Yeah, it went from big stuffto very small, more hands on
personal stuff, which, youknow I having a good balance
of the, like having somebusiness, but also some personal
face to face interaction.
Tanner Welsch (25:04):
For sure.
Shek- (25:04):
and just became more of a local business owner type.
Tanner Welsch (25:09):
Okay.
So you quit your kind of maingig with the consulting and then
you started doing the gym fulltime, you're wearing your Crocs.
And what was it like, goingfrom starting this own local
gym and business to basicallyeventually getting it to
where you hire employees.
Management and it'sstarting to run itself
(25:29):
and you can step away.
So what was that process like?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (25:33):
Yeah.
So I I mentioned earlierthat because my wife is a
veterinarian in the armyand we knew she was in
school, but she was underbasically an army scholarship.
So we knew that she would haveto be stationed elsewhere after
she graduated and that was.
(25:54):
When I opened the gym, it wasabout in about two years that we
knew we would have to do that.
So basically, I knew Iwould have about a year
at the gym to get the gymready to be made remotely.
So really, my goal was, geteverything running fine, write
down and develop processesthat other people can follow.
(26:16):
And then used.
That entire time to scout andsearch for a general manager to
which I who I trust to, to doall of them and fortunately I
did run into basically someonewho was a regular climber to.
I is now a fantastic generalmanager like I just, she's
(26:36):
really great she's local andI absolutely trust her and
she gets climbing so it'swhich is not easy to find in
Ithaca just because it's a notit's not a climbing community
it's not if you were to go toBoulder, Colorado, you would,
you could just turn around andfind a climber but in Ithaca,
there's not many climbers.
Tanner Welsch (26:55):
Okay.
That makes sense.
So was she actually like alocal that, that was very
frequent there and, you gotto know her and recognize her
coming in as a local and youguys just started talking and
this opportunity just came up.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (27:07):
Yeah, so she actually had asked to be a
route setter which is, you Everyweek we take down a section of
the holds from the walls, butwe do we take down the holes
from a section of the walls, andthen rearrange them to create
new routes for the climbers.
And she had asked to be one ofthose, and I had hired her for
(27:28):
that I basically already fromthat I already knew gotten to
know her and knew her styleand you know just could just
see that she was a responsibleperson who was passionate about
climbing which is very much wasexactly who I was looking for.
Tanner Welsch (27:42):
Perfect.
Okay, that makes sense.
Awesome, man.
That's great.
Cause one of my thoughtswas like how did you
actually hire somebody?
What's that process like?
And it was actually moreinternal than what I
thought it was going to be.
I thought you're going to haveto use some outside sources
and go through a bunch ofapplications, but it turns
out she was actually local andstarted as an employee with you.
(28:03):
And then the managementposition came open and
the rest is history.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (28:08):
Yeah the nice thing about that was
with the climbing gym is thatbasically all the locals, like
we, we know them and anytimewe need to hire we pretty
much just try to do it eitherinternally or with people, with
the regulars, because sincewe know them and there's no,
it's, it saves us the workof having to look through
applications come up with ajob description, look through
(28:29):
applications, interview people,and that, that saves a lot of
time For a small gym like us.
Tanner Welsch (28:34):
For sure.
Makes sense.
Okay, so you got the time frame,you and your wife are going
to be leaving in two years.
You found a general manager.
What's next, man?
What's next for you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (28:45):
Yeah that, with the general manager
I'm managing the gym remotely,but, my goal and also I think
what is ideal is to make Sure.
I keep developing processesthat allows me to.
Not be spending a lot of timedoing work on the gym, even if
it's like random remote stuff.
For example I still oversee thiskids summer camps because just
(29:10):
the process is very, there'sno like software that does
it all for you that does it.
That makes sense likefinancially for us.
But eventually I'llautomate that away as well.
So basically right now Ispend about five hours,
five to maybe 10 hours max.
If it's a busy week of likekids camps, I spend about
(29:30):
five hours a week doinggym administrative work.
So from that, I was like,Okay, I have a little too
much time on my hands.
I came across Potrero Group,which is the boutique consulting
firm I was talking about.
And they do a lot of work withthe National Park Service.
They do a lot of work withNational Park Service basically
partners who fundraise for them.
(29:52):
And just with my experiencebeing an internal consultant
and then being a federalconsultant for the National
Park Service, I applied tothe, job website, and they were
like, okay, we actually need acontract consultant, which is
perfect for me because I'm notlooking for a full time job.
I'm looking for somethingthat'll, keep me busy, give
(30:14):
me a little extra money.
And then get me back intothe big business side.
I probably spend about 15 hoursa week working there currently.
Tanner Welsch (30:26):
Was that were you like searching for a
consulting kind of job and youwere looking to see what was
available because you had a lotmore time on your hands since
this was running itself andthis is actually what you found
and it ended up working out.
S (30:40):
Actually, I wasn't searching.
I was just on LinkedIn andthe National Park Service
internal consulting team.
The group, there's, we havean alumni group on LinkedIn,
and portrayal group, they hadposted in there looking for
another consultant, so I just,I was like, oh, that seems
interesting, and I applied,so it was more just, I think,
(31:03):
just happened to be goodluck and timing with that,
and it ended up, reallywell, and I think it works
out for them, becausethey're also a, they're a
boutique consulting point.
They're not big in, certainprojects don't land.
They can't just keep asalaried consultant on
full time, but I'm fine.
If I'm fine, like not workingfor a week and because my gym
(31:24):
still gives me the income.
Tanner Welsch (31:26):
Definitely.
This other job that youmentioned or kind of business,
I'm, I don't know how topronounce it, but edify.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (31:35):
oh yeah.
Edify.
Yeah.
Tanner Welsch (31:36):
Okay.
Edify.
How does that fit intoall this timeline?
Like, how did that start?
Yeah.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (31:42):
Yeah I, at the national park service
internship they placed me atone park with another consultant
who was also doing internship.
And I we got along really well.
We've, we thought we workeda lot really well together.
At the end of the summer Okay.
we worked along great together.
We, our skills reallythey don't match.
(32:04):
They actually covereach other's weaknesses.
We were like, we should startsomething together, and we went
our separate ways found, gotthese jobs but at my consult
federal consulting job I hadto do a lot of data analytics.
To analyze data.
And I ended up like learningPython and all sorts of
different data analytics.
(32:25):
And I was like, this issomething that the MBA program
doesn't cover, but it's reallyneeded in real life on the job.
So I texted him, I was like,Hey, do you need to do this?
And he said, Yeah Icould learn it as well.
And it seems really useful.
So basically I taught it tohim and then we were like,
okay, this seems very useful.
(32:46):
So we startedteaching it to others.
And basically there weformed an education company
Tanner Welsch (32:53):
cool.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (32:53):
yeah and then we've changed it and
pivoted the company, and nowwe're basically making education
gamifying it a little bit more.
Tanner Welsch (33:02):
Okay, so if you could, say maybe in a sentence
or two what Aedify is or doesor offers, what would that be?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (33:12):
Right now we offer a text based like
Dungeons and Dragons like gamethat teaches personal finance.
We use it in conjunctionwith just teaching
people personal finances.
The game is basicallythe homework.
And then we're working on thedevelopment of a video game
that teaches personal finance.
Tanner Welsch (33:33):
very cool.
That's interesting, man.
Shek-h (33:36):
Might have been a little bit more than a sentence,
Tanner Welsch (33:38):
That's okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (33:39):
then this would be what gamifying
stuff that teaches peoplelike real life skills.
Tanner Welsch (33:45):
For sure.
That's brilliant.
I love it.
What are some...
Really challenges that youhad, going from PT school,
going through everything thatwe talked about to getting to
where you are today and how didyou overcome these challenges
Shek-hung Keith Liao (34:00):
Yeah, I'd say one is really,
it is hard to give up PT.
Like I didn't hate PT.
I there's a, I have a lotof criticisms maybe of
the healthcare industry oreven, and I definitely know
I didn't want to work init for another 20 years.
But I thought I was areally good PT, I still
(34:22):
think I'm a really goodPT, and I still enjoy it.
And I actually think I don'tknow, this might sound, I
hope this doesn't come acrossas arrogant, but I think I
have a lot of talent in PTthat I thought, I'm like,
am I wasting this talent, orMy I should I be treating
patients like I'm great at it.
So really hard to getover that mentally.
(34:46):
And honestly, it's more justtime like I, I always even in
MBA school, I still saw myselfas a physical therapist, not
as an MBA or business students.
It's been what like fouryears since I practiced.
And I never, I almost forgetthat I like I rarely introduce
(35:07):
myself as a physical therapistanymore, just because I'm not.
Oh, but I do still takecontinuing courses I still
keep my license, and eventhough I don't have a
intention to treat anymore Istill like to be involved and
stay updated in the field sothat does help a little bit.
Tanner Welsch (35:26):
For sure.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (35:27):
And I think also understanding that.
The skills in PT translateswell to business, even if the
business world doesn't see that.
I think it's The other wayaround, we provide a lot
of value because, I'm goinginto these businesses.
I'm telling them, I'm likebasically assessing the problems
and telling them, here's whatI recommend you should do.
(35:50):
And we do that, like eight to10 times a day with patients.
I don't know, maybe at someof the worst places like 20,
30 times but but yeah, so andjust even the client management
skills, how do you handle adifficult clients like We've
handled it way more thanany other business person.
And then also bringing in theevidence based mindset, like
(36:13):
we are trained, like to lookat the data, to look at the
papers and evidence reallyto understand, Hey, this is
why something works and not.
And that's something I feellike the business field is
tries to do, but they don'thave a doctorate in it, Right.
They don't have.
Three, three years ofeducation to do to learn
that and I'm coming in andI'm bringing in say, I think
(36:35):
I add a PT is really justadd an extra dimension.
And that's that way I don't feellike my education and PT or my
experience as a PT is wasted.
I just don't use.
I just don't practiceclinically, but it's
still valuable experienceto my current work.
Tanner Welsch (36:53):
Absolutely.
And I just want to emphasizethat, Yeah, you, I think
relate to a lot of peoplebecause you're identifying
with this identity asa physical therapist.
It's got to be hard to letgo because we've invested so
much time and energy into it.
But the point is that you can doit and you do have transferable
(37:13):
skills to make it happen.
It's important for listenersto know and understand
that these transferableskills are really valuable.
And as many other guests haveexplained and shared that
have transitioned to severaldifferent career types and
different, jobs and they'redoing different things and
have different lifestyles.
(37:35):
The interpersonal skills that wegain being therapist actually
end up being very valuabletransitioning to other careers.
So if it's something you'rethinking about, I'd be happy
to talk with you about itand help you in any way I can
to maybe clarify a directionfor you or help you get
where you're wanting to go.
So feel free to, youhop on the rehab rebels.
(37:59):
org.
website and click on contact,or you can shoot me an email
at Tanner at RehabRebels.
org and I'll get you, get anemail and would be happy to
talk to anybody that, wantsa transition, but maybe they
just don't know how or whereto start or where to go.
(38:20):
Or maybe they're alongthe process and having
some difficulties.
Yeah, feel free to reach out.
Would love to helpany way I can.
So get after it.
Shek-hung Kei (38:29):
Yeah, definitely.
I wish the business worldwould value PTs more.
That's like I could go onfor a long time about the
lack of respect physicaltherapists get in that setting.
Yeah.
Tanner Welsch (38:41):
For sure.
I think they get a lackof respect pretty much
everywhere to be honest.
and Some of it too, Keith,is people just don't know
what exactly we do and it'sa shame and that's why I
think maybe we aren't asrespected as we should be and
people don't see the valuethat we can bring as PTs or
transitioning to other careersor whatever, so what does your
(39:06):
day to day life look like?
Uh huh, uh huh, mm hmm, Huh,
Shek-hung Keith Liao (39:08):
So day to day, let's, so usually
because I have so manydifferent things, it's, I don't
really have a set schedule,which I generally prefer.
But I do start every morningwith 30 minutes of stretching
and therapeutic exercises andthat's because I do attribute
(39:28):
quitting PT and taking a deskjob to my current back pain
which, I don't know how muchit has to do with just aging,
congenital neural, neuralforamen, that kind of stuff, but
I do have a few herniations, Ialways struggle with stretching
but, Then I do about a 15minutes to an hour of Cayuga
Climbs work and that involvesbasically I do the accounting.
(39:52):
I look at the previous daytransactions and it's just
see how many visitors we got.
I post on our social media.
And then I take care ofemails and like just the
emails that come to me.
And then throughout the day.
I'm sometimes I'm textingmy gentleman manager
like back and forth.
So that's Not, it'shard to quantify that.
(40:14):
And then I'll usually dowith one to two hours of
Aedify work where I'm either,working on the product or
finding a new customer ordesigning a new curriculum
or looking or ask or writingapplications for VCs to fund us.
And then about three to fivehours of portrayal group
consulting work which is becausethey're, they are West Coast
(40:36):
based and I'm on the EastCoast, which is why no one.
No one is really working forthem until about noon, so
they don't work really well.
That's why I do all my ownwork in the morning and
they work in the afternoon.
Tanner Welsch (40:49):
That makes sense.
Who do you feel would bea good, fit for being a
consultant or a business owner?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (40:56):
Yeah.
I'd say business owner isit's tough to tell like the
first six months I openeda gym, I felt like I always
had a little stress likewhat if something goes wrong.
And like it was always thereat the back of my mind so
I, I do feel like it canbe stressful and like I
am always texting people.
(41:17):
I don't I guess notalways texting people.
It's just that I will.
Get a text at like 10pm orsomething and I don't mind
that myself because it's mybusiness but consultant wise
I'd say most physical therapistshave the skills and generally
the personality to become afantastic consultants, like for
the reasons I mentioned earlierBut I think like consultant
(41:41):
and MBA is it's I almost viewedit almost interchangeably.
Tanner Welsch (41:45):
Okay.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (41:46):
And it's, I'd say, don't be intimidated
by the business side of it.
It's not actually, dependingon the demographics, it's,
there's often an easier pathto be an MBA consultant.
Asian males are not inthe easier demographic for
Recruiting for an MBA or MBAadmissions, I'd say, I don't
(42:09):
know how that comes acrossbasically in MBA programs.
They have somethingspecifically called
underrepresented minorities,There's like special
programs for like that givesspecial scholarships and
considerations and even preMBA opportunities for them.
So it's more like that.
I'm not like talking some weirdlike affirmative action, like
(42:32):
political stance or anything.
It's more that there are a lot.
I do find some women maybewho aren't already in business
are intimidated by thethought of an MBA, but it's
actually a very welcomingenvironment that, and there's
like specific scholarshipscalled the Forte Foundation,
where almost like all womenwho apply to an MBA get, get
(42:53):
like a 50, 000 scholarship.
It's more, I'm more referringto stuff like that, that where
they, there's a, it helpsthem get rid of that barrier.
Tanner Welsch (43:03):
Okay.
Thanks for theclarification, man.
Cause I was just I reallydidn't know what you meant
and I probably should
Shek-hung Keith Liao (43:08):
Yeah,
Tanner Welsch (43:09):
well, what
Shek-hung (43:09):
like, oh man, I feel like, I didn't elaborate.
Yeah, no, and then just,it's just there are a lot
of Asian males and whitemales in an anime program.
So there's no specificscholarships for white
male or Asian male versus.
Tanner Welsch (43:23):
For sure.
Thanks for clarifying that okay.
So that makes sense.
That makes sense.
That's something that youpointed out to that a lot
of business owners that haveinterviewed mentioned is pretty
much, you're available allthe time to basically manage
your clients or your business.
And so I think that's somethingthat, It's important to
(43:44):
recognize like it's not just anine to five and then at five
you can leave everything atyour job and then just go home.
It can come with you at times.
Have you found that tobe challenging or, are
there certain resourcesor tools that you've used
to help you manage that?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (44:00):
yeah, I think my own personality is
more okay with that, because,on the other hand, I don't
have to sit at a desk 40 hoursa day, or 40 hours a week.
And I think it does help that?
it's like if itwas someone else's.
If I was a consultant andsomeone was texting me at 10 p.
m.
at night, I wouldn't be happy.
(44:22):
And that, that doeshappen in consulting.
So I think it's a, it is alittle different when it's your
business, but you do have tohave the personality for it.
But I'm not sure exactlyhow to gauge that.
Tanner Welsch (44:34):
for sure.
Something I realized is.
It was a really a struggle forme at first because you know
shifting because I do homehealth physical therapy So
sometimes we do have some thingsthat come up that may be after
five that we got to deal withlike scheduling patients, but
You know for me it was reallybeing doing a shift from being
(44:56):
a PT to you know Trying to getthis business off the ground,
you know running rehab rebelsand going back and forth and
I've gotten I feel like it'sbecome more comfortable, but
it was definitely like, mypersonality type is I want
to stick to one thing, finishit all, and then go to the
other thing and not do thisbounce back and forth thing.
So that was a challenge for me.
(45:18):
And I, if there's anything Icould, maybe help with that has
helped me is really just tryingto keep things organized within
Your computer or your phone,like I have, tabs specifically
for rehab rebel stuff.
And then I have, a separatesection for home health.
And so I, it can, it's easy forme to get where I need to go.
(45:40):
That way it's easier forme to switch back and forth
between these things andkeep things organized.
So that's my little 10cents on the trying to
juggle a business and thenwork like a primary job.
So yeah.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (45:52):
Yeah, definitely, especially
after seeing patients allday, sometimes your brain
just needs to relax, right?
Tanner Welsch (45:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
What have you realizedfrom this journey, Keith,
from PT school going fromPT school to where you are
today, or maybe some lifeawareness, some realizations
that, that you've gainedthat you didn't have before?
Shek-h (46:13):
Yeah I think ultimately, I did, I got away from
PT because I wanted to.
That's still, there was a lotof reasons like financial, I,
I can talk for 30 minutes aboutall the detailed reasons, but
ultimately, I think lookingback, it was just I wanted to do
it and I don't regret it at all.
(46:36):
And I'm not thinking I'mnot going back and looking
at Oh, how much money couldI have if I'd stayed in PT
and open my own practice?
Versus now I'm not doingthose calculations.
I like I'm very happy with thepath I've chosen and I'm very
glad I just Decided to do it.
And I didn't get stucksaying, Oh, how I'm taking
(46:58):
out this massive loan or likeI'm spending two years of
no income while paying theschool a bunch of income.
And then, ultimately, likeI said, I met my wife there,
which I, I would not havemet if I didn't go to an
MBA and really open upmy social circles as well.
Yeah, it's just like I gotto know a whole bunch of
(47:19):
different people that aren'tPTs and now they work in all
sorts of different fieldsand just really made my
life a lot more interesting.
Tanner Welsch (47:27):
For sure.
So it was worth it, man.
It was an adventureand it was worth it.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (47:32):
Yeah, I mean I think just especially
as financially minded personlike I do think about that a
lot, whether something's worthit but I think just I'm glad I
didn't over overly analyze it.
as a from afinancial standpoint.
Tanner Welsch (47:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or exactly.
That's what I was thinking,or like overly emphasize
the finances part of itbecause there's other
non maybe quantifiable.
Things that came out of it thataren't really related to the
finance and how can you put ahow can you put a value on it?
Like you meetingyour wife, right?
So
Shek-hung Keith Liao (48:07):
Exactly.
Tanner Welsch (48:08):
that's really cool I just have a couple
more questions for you andthen we'll wrap up here.
Do you have any bookrecommendations for?
Rehab rebel listeners that youknow, maybe want to start their
own business or transitionto something different or
create their own PT business
Shek-hung (48:27):
Book recommendations.
No, I actually, I don't generalI generally read fiction.
Tanner Welsch (48:32):
Okay.
Okay.
Shek-hu (48:34):
Yeah, so I almost don't read nonfiction books.
I find fiction helps meescape from reality and
while still Bringing abit of a social thing.
And hence, that's actuallywhy I'm making video games
that teach people things,because I like the blend of
like fiction, but it's still,you still learn from it.
Tanner Welsch (48:52):
If there's anybody that maybe is
wanting to reach out to youand, ask you some questions
or just connect with you,where can they find you?
Shek-hung Keith Liao (48:59):
Yeah.
Let me see.
Tanner Welsch (49:02):
Like LinkedIn or do you have a social,
presence or what do you think?
Shek-hung (49:08):
Actually, they could just email me at keith.
lau at gmail.
com k e i t h dotl i a o at gmail.
com.
mean, that's theeasiest way, yeah.
Tanner Welsch (49:21):
If you reach out to Keith, be sure to
include rehab rebels connectionin the subject line or
in the body of the email.
So he knows how youheard about him.
Keith, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
It's really been a pleasure.
Enjoyed talking to you andyou sharing your story.
Shek-hung Keith Li (49:40):
Sounds good.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed talking toyou and like hopefully keep
in touch and look forwardto your episodes coming out.
So
Tanner Welsch (49:49):
Thank you.
Cool.
All right.
Have a good day and havea good weekend, Keith.
Shek-hung Keith Liao (49:52):
Yep.
Thanks.
Yep.
Bye.
RR Ourto (49:54):
Thank you for listening to the
Rehab Rebels podcast.
If this podcast was useful,make sure to hit that subscribe
button and leave a review.
For more information abouttransitioning to alternative
careers, head to rehabrebels.orgor follow us on Instagram
at Rehab Rebels Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
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