In this episode of Resilience Gone Wild, Jessica Morgenthau sits down with Nicolas Prophte to explore the evolution of denim, the challenges of sustainability in fashion, and the critical role of mindset in transforming the industry. Nicolas shares his personal journey through the denim world, highlighting how consumer behavior, industry practices, and technological advancements are shaping the future of sustainable fashion. The conversation delves into the importance of building a reverse supply chain, the impact of fast fashion marketing, and the need for brands to commit to transparency and sustainable sourcing. With insights into recycled cotton, digital printing innovations, and the power of consumer demand, this episode calls for a collective effort to push the denim industry toward a more responsible future.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hello. Welcome to Resilience Gone Wild. I am
here as I love being with my fabulous
producer, Kai Sorensen,
director of podcasts for BLI.
And how are you? We haven't really chatted
that much lately. Yeah. Doing okay. I mean,
man, it'd be great if we could connect
every day. Right? But I know you you're
out there
volunteering your time to to Loggerhead right now,
(00:24):
and I don't know. It always seems like
every other day you're in a golf tournament,
which makes me jealous because we have to
put golf in. Canceled today. Which is why
we're a crazy storm last night with this
amazing, amazing lightning that we were watching for
a while, and it was Wow. Really close.
So we were outside, and then we weren't
outside.
I'm not really sure if lightning can go
through a doorway or not. But
Not the podcast for that.
(00:47):
Yeah. No. One of my favorite things is
to be on a porch covered with during
a thunderstorm. I just Yeah. That's what I
grew up doing. I'm from Nebraska, so big,
big thunderstorms there. So it's very, nostalgic feeling
for a thunderstorm to come through. It's good
to feel nature. Right? Like, to have that
in your hands. The power of it. As
long as there's no tornado behind it, you
know, you're always Yeah. Down for a thunderstorm.
(01:07):
Yep. And we do have some in Florida.
You have a lot more in Nebraska, but
we do have some here.
But so this has been a fascinating series,
and I know you've gotten a lot of
direct feedback, which is, you know, awesome when
someone texts like, please text us. You enjoyed
the episode. It was great. Yeah. I got
a number of I usually get a few,
and I I got, like, this swarm of
people who said that and I haven't had
(01:29):
a chance to check-in to say what exactly
resonated, but I think it was about people
coming out and and really fully being themselves,
which is really what indigo is about. Like,
you know, there's so much superpower hiding within
each and every one of us that Right.
We're we think we're humble, but we're really
just not giving our all to our life
and being in our full and giving our
(01:49):
all to others and to the world. So
yeah. Yeah. You know, it was something,
because often as I'm editing your podcast, you
know, it's a great opportunity for me to
journal after the fact. Awesome. And, you know,
it's so interesting
how, I don't know, maybe
half of your time, you're
you lean into a superpower, right? Like maybe
(02:09):
detail oriented or empathetic or, you know, those
kinds of things that you, like, wanna, you
highlight about yourself. And then there's, like, another
part of your life where you don't really
lean into those superpowers
in times where you need them, like maybe
in times of conflict or,
times of uncertainty. So it was really fascinating
being able to identify
what I perceive as a superpower of mine
(02:30):
and then Share, share, share. Come on. No
humility. Give us one.
And I'm gonna say I knew that about
you, right? But go ahead. I think the,
one of the superpowers I was circling in
my journal was empathy, but empathy for yourself
is something I lack.
Right? So it's like it's really powerful when
you can identify that emotion you have for
someone else, like my son or a best
(02:52):
friend or my wife,
but then Or your dog. Or my dog,
which Elroy. We went to the vet. I'll
tell you about it in a bit. But
how often do I have empathy for myself?
How often do I cut myself slack or
give myself grace? And it's just really interesting
how you can just, like, flip that conversation
for yourself. And Kai and I have talked
about you know, you and I have talked
about perfectionism
(03:12):
and the challenges that we have with it
and just having to say it's good enough
to just move on because you otherwise, you
get stuck. And, you know, empathy for yours
for ourselves
around
just,
being okay with that and and honoring that
and honoring the emotions that are so tough
to deal with when we don't wanna say
we're finished because it's not perfect. Perfect,
(03:33):
right?
Right, absolutely. And, you know, on the pragmatic
side of this series is this denim, right?
So, like, being a lot more conscious of,
you know, I love denim. I'm in a
psych rock band. I don't know, you knew
that. So there's a lot of denim being
worn,
in my life. You know, noticing,
like, I have this vintage
Calvin Klein
denim jacket that I love, and the quality
(03:53):
is amazing. It's probably been around for fifty
years, and it'll be around, I hope Miles
will wear it someday. It'll be one of
those pieces. But then I have- Recycling and
reusing. Exactly. Yeah. But then I have this
pair of denim jeans
that I got at Target because I needed
some jeans, and when I wear them now,
I'm like, these are gonna fall apart in
a year. I don't even think they're actually
denim. It's just that
(04:15):
oil, that petroleum based
issue that we kind of been talking about.
It's so funny, though, right? Like, did you
even think of this before the episode? Like,
before listening? Like, we're not aware of stuff,
right? We're absolutely not aware, but it's so
easy to go to a thrift store
and find exactly what you're looking for and
I guess when it concerns denim. But, tell
(04:35):
us a little bit about Nicholas before we
get to the interview. Yeah. I mean, I
met him online, one of my just amazing
connections that I've made on LinkedIn with so
many brilliant people. And he is just trying
to change the space of fast fashion,
fast fashion,
and the,
and the world that
is behind the scenes
(04:55):
needs to be uncovered like indigo. You know,
we think indigo is just this this, like,
lovely little green plant, and then it turns
out it has this unbelievable hidden
stuff behind it. Sometimes
that's not such a good story. Right? So
when you look at fast fashion and you
look at the history of denim and what's
really going on in the world of that
we live in around everything we wear. I
(05:17):
mean, we're not even gonna talk about food
or anything else right now. We're just talking
about clothing. And if we really start to
uncover
what's hiding, it's a really ugly story, but
it can be a really beautiful one if
we start with, you know, he's he's got
this
huge thing called denim deal. He's got all
these partnerships all around the world, big in
Egypt with Egyptian cotton and trying to use
(05:39):
a minimum of 20% recycled in the future
of cotton and and denim. And it really
changes everything. I mean, the scale of clothing
Yeah. Around the world. Just think about it.
I don't even know what the numbers are.
Trillions of dollars, right,
of both waste and cost. I mean, in
places like South America, there's deserts that are
literally
(05:59):
being taken over by
dumps of fashion, of clothing that is just
thrown out. I mean, literally covering deserts worth
where people, somebody's decided that that is useless
land and that's what it should be used
for. Yeah. Honestly, probably the pair of jeans
I bought at Target, the ones that didn't
pass quality check are probably
in
(06:19):
those piles
in the desert. Yeah. Or somebody who wore
it a couple times and said, Ah, this
isn't really my thing. I'm throwing it out.
Yeah. Yeah. Or giving it away to the
thrift shop and nobody wanted it.
Yeah, and I think one thing that popped
up for me with Nicholas is just how
impressive
he is, his passion. And, again, I think
we saw this, and we'll see this in
some interviews coming up with the Tasmanian devils.
(06:41):
But how is it never too late
in your life
to make that pivot and to make that
shift? Yeah, I did. Because he's he had
an entire career before
he realized
that his pursuits and passions were actually elsewhere
on and maybe a little
contradictory to the career he was leading. So
just really fascinating stuff.
(07:02):
And you get you make a really important
point. I mean, in both of these cases
that Kai's noting about the, the really awesome
guy that we talked to about, Tasmanian devils,
who's in Mhmm. Australia, is that it's it
gets uncomfortable
in life when you're doing work and you're
living just in conflict with your values. If
something just doesn't feel right and you're on
this just churning conveyor belt of doing doing,
(07:26):
and you don't stop because you're like, oh,
it's okay. It's okay. It's, you know, this
is the way the world works. I can't
really fight the world. And then you stop
and you say, wait. I can change the
way I behave, the way I live my
life, the way living my purpose instead of
being uncomfortable. It, you know, it changes everything
and changes the world. So in both of
these cases, you know, there was this huge
(07:46):
shift of
how they were living their lives and and
how they decided to live their lives.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
But shifting topics a little bit, you were
telling me a really interesting story about I
was at Friends that were visiting a national
park that kind of been affected by a
lot of the cuts we've seen lately? Yeah,
some friends were planning a vacation,
around now, and they were planning to go
(08:07):
to the national parks. It's not a it's
busy always in the national parks. As they've
been around since 1916 being protected, and it
it, they decided to travel outside The United
States instead. The they had become aware that
there was this massive firing from our current
government of all the ranger like, a a
ton of rangers and the people who literally
(08:28):
take care of the bathrooms and have the
keys to everything and keep us safe
and and make make these places accessible and
safe for both humans and nature.
And it was really beautiful to hear that
the judicial system has put a stop to
those fires. I mean, all those people, thousand
plus people, had been fired and had to
figure out what to do with themselves and
(08:50):
had to and these are not highly paid
people in the first place. So Mhmm. You
know, they're probably living hand to mouth and
just A labor of love. Labor of love.
Right? And then had to figure it all
out. So, hopefully,
many or most of them or all of
them are gonna be back, and they've gotta
hire now for the seasonal
workers for the the busy times. And I'm
just I'm really happy that there's a personally,
(09:11):
that there's a lot of other structure that
exists in this country
to stop
at least some of the damage that's being
done to our environment and our world of
nature here. I mean, you know, the drill,
drill, drill and the cutting down of national
parks for forestry and, you know, the water
pollution that's gonna happen and all the other
(09:31):
ripple effects that are are not that long
term, but longer term than let's just cut
a tree and make it into something for
today. -Mm -You know, it's a huge issue
in this day and age.
Yeah, you know, my mother-in-law was just here,
and she's from DC, and, you know,
my wife, my father-in-law
had a career in USAID, and my sister-in-law
(09:52):
was working for USAID. And I think in
those instances, it's not that you lost your
job. It's your entire industry is gone. So,
like, as you go into the job market,
there's no, like, someone else can help you
out because it just doesn't exist. And not
only that, all of these extremely capable and
(10:12):
master to doctorate level types of positions are
just, that are open in in like private
sectors are just
flooded with thousands of candidates. So I know
it's really scary for a lot of people
out there who have lost their jobs in
this way, but it's encouraging to, as you
say, see that some of these
checks and balances maybe are starting to work.
I mean, there's a lot to remain to
(10:34):
be seen, but the fact that we're entering
spring
into the the vacation time and, you know,
fingers crossed,
you know, our parks will be staffed and
we'll be able to enjoy
what is so beautiful about this country is
is the National Park Service. So Yeah. Let's
cross my fingers.
Yeah. So on a positive note, before we
get to the interview, wanna read a review?
(10:55):
Sure.
Alright. Does beak or ring a bell? Does
not.
Must beak is obviously their username. So beak
twenty four, five stars. Get inspired. Jessica has
a wonderful way of tying in themes that
relate to human experiences with those of our
neighbors of the animal kingdom and the natural
world around us. The topics are relevant, captivating,
and they give the listener a broader view
(11:15):
of how resilience
can be a powerful and positive force in
our lives, an enjoyable podcast, and a must
listen for inspiration and personal growth.
Thank you, Beak twenty four. So, so appreciate
you're posting the review and that we're so
thrilled that it's resonating and bringing you joy
and resilience. So thank you. And if you're
listening right now, before we get to the
(11:36):
interview, just hit pause real quick. Actually, don't
hit the hit pause. If you're not driving,
just go leave us a review. It really
does help the podcast stay relevant
in the machine, in the algorithm, in what
controls, the podcasting world. We want this message
of resilience and and love for nature to
get to the right people. So just leave
us a review and we'd really appreciate it.
All right, should we get to the interview?
(11:58):
Yeah, great. All right, here we go.
Welcome, Nicholas Proft.
You can correct me because it's French and
I'm doing, I tried. So, you know, I
tried to learn French many a time and
it's, there's a mind block. That's the thing,
Jessica. It's never too late. There's a mindset,
you see? You're right. We can learn anything.
(12:18):
But you have to prioritize.
Or and you get to prioritize.
So we can talk about French later. But
it is a total mindset. It's a mind
block that when I was in second grade,
my teacher
made me feel
stupid in the way I was pronouncing the
word for hello, which I am so uncomfortable
pronouncing. So I went to Paris, and I
(12:39):
went to the Sorbonne, and I tried to
learn French. And, like, it went on like
that, and it's still you're a hun %
right. It's a mindset, and that is what
we're here to talk about. So awesome. Isn't
it great how everything works out that way?
Okay. So I am so excited that you're
here. I'm gonna let you introduce yourself, but
just to, like, give a couple of key
points that that will light me up and
(13:00):
everybody else up. We're talking denim. We're talking
fast fashion versus
transformative
ways of, you know, transforming your mindset around
getting away from fast fashion and recycled cotton
and changing
the way we think about how we use
stuff and clothing and take care of our
(13:21):
world. So, yes. Okay. So tell us about
yourself. Yay. Myself, Basa. So I'm French,
of 53 years old.
My old career in the fashion industry by
choice and or in coincidence, but we can
come back after to that, why why I
came to the fashion industry.
And,
mainly on the brand side. So I always
work on the brand side,
(13:42):
always the head of
strategy of sourcing, strategy of buying, relationship with
the suppliers industry,
strategy in terms of sustainability, what we can
make in innovation, and my specialite specialty, let's
say expertise,
it's denim. I've done many, many all product
categories in my life. But the one I
stick with, the ones really in my vein,
(14:04):
my blue blood is really the Indigo so
it's the denim industry. For me
it's sorry if I pause here but it's
extremely
creative
industry, complex also I would say. But it's
a it's a kind of community that we
have. We know
we're like a big family, but, very interesting.
I've always been passionate about this, by by
(14:26):
this industry. So yeah. It's so interesting though
because you, you know, anything you don't know
about seems simple. Right? Like, so denim seems
like there's just how complicated, but it is,
as you just said, it's super complex
and interesting, and it's about community, and it's
about the whole system. So, yeah, you're go
ahead.
Yeah, it's extremely fragmented. You know, there is
(14:47):
many, many hands,
many suppliers, many different step in the production
process. It's very unique, indigo.
Why why we use this old plant? We
don't use plant anymore, unfortunately. It's petrol based
dye stuff. That's the problem. But it comes
from a very very long time Indigo to
us even the Egyptian fan. It's a long
time ago that we play with Indigo as
(15:07):
a dye stuff for and and it's quite
fascinating. So a lot of people, a lot
of countries, but also yeah big dilemma on
the last twenty years, thirty years,
Realizing,
producing this iconic, because for me, the most
fashion iconic is a pair of jeans. If
you look at the story of jeans coming
from, let's say Genova in Italy, coming from
US, or has been a long story, but
(15:30):
very iconic for the music music sides, movies.
I think it's still relevant. All generations,
young generation, everybody adopts this pair of fabric.
So that's why also I was quite, inspired
by the mindset and the to be the
rebel. Kind of, I'm a, I'm a kind
of rebel. Rebel, you know, always contest the
status quo, but we'll come back to that.
(15:50):
But that's, that's the product category I always
embrace. Yeah. Did you say you're like a
river? Is that what you just said?
No. I said the rebellion rebellion spirits, you
know?
Rebellion rebellion, you know, the name is always
yeah. Yeah. A little bit the guys'
parties,
thinking out of the box. It's a little
bit different. Yeah. I told my producer that
(16:11):
you reminded me of Bono. And honestly, like,
there's just so many players. So I'm sure
I'm not the only person who's ever said
that. But make sure, everybody, that you turn
on the YouTube video versus just the audio,
and you'll see what I'm talking about. So,
yeah, rebellion, like, shaking things up. I remember
the first conversation we had. It was all
about and that's what you're doing. Right? Like,
you're you can't transform
(16:31):
without breaking
the system
and recreating it and transforming it. So that's
so interesting, though, about indigo.
I hadn't thought about indigo. We didn't talk
about indigo. I did an article
recently in my newsletter about the finding blue
and blue purplys
are in nature are is not easy. Right?
Like, there's these incredibly complex
(16:54):
processes
to be able to find to create the
dye
in nature that's used in all of these
ancient, you know, whether it's
the, the tallit in the Jewish world or
it was the Mayan blue and and the
indigo of genes and and just the fact
that indigo is part of the Rojibib rainbow,
which is, you know, a color that I
don't think people think about. So, I look
(17:16):
forward to you telling us more about indigo
because I think it has a really deep
spiritual history I think. Unfortunately, the reality the
reality of the indigo we know today it's,
it's it's it's not very inspiring. Look, it's
a it's a synthetic molecule.
I think it's been invented by Bayer in
nineteenth century
And and in a way so it's it's
a petrol base. Right. We're trying to get
(17:37):
away from petrol based.
Yeah. We do it better. We we are
we are trying. I think we in my
career, I could play you can play with
the natural we call it indigo fair plant
mainly
was in India, and I think they're they're
still trying not to to get it back.
Because don't don't don't forget this ancestral
expertise or know how also was lost because
there was no demand. And they lost it,
(17:59):
but I think they're trying not to get
it back. I'm in contact with some of
the some of the suppliers in India that
they they use this plant, but in a
more modern way. I mean, I'm not going
to go too too technical, but that they
can produce big batch at scale,
saying that it's it's a natural beta. So
that's that there is a lot of stuff.
I work
with a big company
(18:21):
in US, at that time, Stony Creek.
It's, farmers in US
also planting indigo, back
and and try to have this, this new,
and try to create a kind of ecosystem
with big brands in US and and the
demands was was difficult. I think the the
problem of
it's like it's like polyester in a fast
(18:42):
fashion. It's it's so cheap, indigo, synthetic indigo.
And when you come back to this natural
base, the the price, you multiply by 10
by 20.
So the economical or the business model is
extremely, challenging.
But it's it's quite fascinating. There's a lot
of stuff happening the last
few years. New tech,
new startup looking at biosynthetic
(19:03):
or biosynthetic of indigo.
So using really, food waste, using different different
things. So really, it's bi biochemistry is exploding
everywhere, I believe. And and some of them
based in US, but also in France, are
attacking specifically the indigo market because it's huge.
Indigo market, it's six. I think we're producing
6,000,000,000
pair of genes per year. So you can
(19:24):
imagine the amount of indigo,
molecule and chemistry that you need. Some of
some of the shakers
are arriving in the market to contest and
to take part of a piece of this,
of this, of this, monopole of a few,
few groups having this synthetic molecule enhancement.
So that's Wow. And that there is some
changes happening now, small scale. But
(19:45):
I believe that in few years, there will
be there will be newcomers. And we are
looking also at
sorry. I'm going technical. But digital
indigo digital printing.
Wow. It's also quite interesting what's happening now.
So we could,
we could avoid this long
process and water consumption energy
(20:05):
with digital printing, but with Indigo. And you
can replicate exactly the same details, the fading,
the Wait. Wait. So you can use three
d printing
and put the fiber, the natural fiber
of or recycled, partially recycled cotton
through a three d printer, if I have
the right technology. It's not a three d
printer. It's a it's a classic printer, ink
(20:26):
printer, but you could replicate on the on
the grayish fabric, on the cotton, or even
on the blend.
Put it on top. So you print it.
Yeah. And you can just print on top
of it and you can you can you
can print reverse. Well, the backside and the
side.
And, and I saw some samples. It's quite
amazing. Even me as an expert,
visually, I could not feel the difference. I
could not see the difference. Yeah. There were
(20:48):
some
some guys working on that since few years
now, but we can now we can see
some very, very nice samples.
There is a lot of technology behind. There
is a lot of,
software, AI,
how to help,
to have really these super refined details. And,
it's it's quite mind blowing. And and the
lead time and the the flexibility,
(21:08):
it's very interesting. So things are moving.
It's amazing. So, you know, it's a this
just to to the aspect of system, you
know, who would have thought, I didn't,
that when you think about creating the 6,000,000,000
pairs of denim jeans that get they get
made every year, that the we're not just
talking about the material. We're talking about the
color
(21:30):
of the and the indigo and the complexity
of that and then the whole system that's
needed and getting away from, you know, reusing
and recycling
so that we're not using all new material
and
and just throwing old stuff out and
finding new ways to replace whatever the artificial,
the synthetic
inputs are to the system. Because it what
(21:51):
do we wanna wear in our bodies? What
do we wanna put in our bodies? I
mean, there's there needs to be more thought,
right, about what we're
doing, not just to our world, but our
own bodies as well.
Yeah. But look look
you can debate on the consumer behavior. But
do do they think some of them, yes.
Probably they do. But most of them, what
is the act of the buying act? What
(22:12):
is the trigger? Yeah? Right. And I think
brands are extremely or fast fashion or
tough as fashion. They are here to stimulate
you all the time, to bombarding you, and
that you have to consume things that you
don't need at the end of the day.
But, but, and unfortunately,
the fashion industry in general, but also the
denim industry, a pair of jeans became a
(22:32):
commodity year by year,
decade by decade. Look, I have twenty five
years experience.
I've been buying
my whole life.
I can tell you that
twenty five from the price we can buy
a pair of jeans today in Bangladesh or
twenty five years ago,
probably decreased.
It decreased.
So the FOB, the added value, it becomes
(22:54):
a very commodity. And after
you you wonder why,
who's skipping one of the step? Who is
skipping something on the human side? It's not
normal that we have inflation for the last
twenty five years, inflation. So as a consumer,
you pay more. But from a buying perspective,
I can tell you the price are the
tighter or even lower than before. So there
is something
(23:14):
purely mathematic here that's not working. So so
there is something wrong here. And I'm I'm
sure you know, though, every all the inputs
to the system. So we're talking labor, how
we value
human labor,
and how we value the destruction of of
our planet
and whether we care or not. And those
are just two of the pieces of the
inputs. Yeah. I mean, there's there you get
(23:35):
your circular economy and your recycled and, you
know, all of this
transformative thinking about caring
about how the system works and and wondering
why some things are cheaper than they should
be and some things are not. Let me
ask stop you for one sec because I
I love to hear the story of how
people make these transformations
from you started in and spent your life
(23:56):
in branding and in denim and in a
and in fashion. And
then,
among other experiences, probably, you went to Ghana,
right, and had this, like, moment
that changed some of your thinking and transformed
your goals and purpose. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So Tell us that story.
It was not Ghana, but it was look.
(24:18):
No. It's okay. It's okay. No problem. You
I had the chance to have
quite a lot of responsibility young. So I
I traveled a lot my whole life. Probably
today for the younger generation,
it would be even more difficult to be
exposed to the real industry. But I have
the chance
to very soon to to travel to Bangladesh,
to India, to Pakistan, to Cambodia, all the
(24:39):
Southeast Of Asia.
And from the books that I learned because
I'm a textile engineer
you you are confronted to the the yeah
the the rough reality of what is a
what is a factory.
How it's made.
Who are the people behind the machines?
In which condition they are working.
You can imagine Bangladesh or India with 35
degrees or 40 degrees outside,
(25:00):
sometimes without any echo you can imagine. But
I think you see what it's in the
factories because don't forget that they customize and
you're more than welcome as a buyer, so
everything is prepared
probably a month before.
So what you see is always the best.
Yeah? You will never see the worst. But
if you're curious and if you see around
the around the factory
(25:22):
going at the corner, you can see also,
yeah, the rivers. You can see the condition,
the life condition of these people where they're
living close by the factory.
I remember my first trip in China. Yeah.
People were living in the factory. Yeah. That
was the Chinese model twenty five years ago,
and they will come back only for the
Chinese New Year to their to their homeland,
to their family.
(25:42):
So the it was really
it was really shocking for me, yeah, because
they were here twenty four hours at the
service of the bus. And if they were
late or lead time squeezing for the buyers,
they had to, yeah, probably work
shift, night shift, day shift, weekends.
So you're confronted and you you say, wow.
That's
tough. That's tough. But I was young. I
(26:03):
know what I was
I have to prove myself. I have to
make the best. So you look at it.
You understand it. But in a way, you
have to deliver.
You have to deliver for the brands. You
have to make your own job. So you
continue.
Step by step, I think this,
you get immaturity, you get, get more concerned.
And twenty five years ago, nobody was really
talking about sustainability.
(26:23):
Nobody was talking about resources.
Social a little bit. The the the the
mindset start to change, yeah, fifteen years ago.
At least the denim industry was quite
finger pointed,
because of the laundry system, because of the
washes, industrial washes. So in a way, we
were the first one not targeted.
(26:43):
The first one asking the question, are we
doing the right stuff?
Can we do it in a different way?
So I think it's it's starting to germ
here the idea. Can we change a little
bit the process to be
less water consumption? How we can have a
look at the chemistry?
We've understood exposure of chemistry, you know, a
lot of
handwork with chemistry, with chemicals, with spray, hand
(27:05):
scrapping,
this huge factory. You could see 5,000 people,
scrapping the jeans like that with the dust
and etcetera.
So they start they start to reflect on
some of the people, yeah, like startup to
say, look, probably we have a better technology
to avoid all this. And, of course, to
make a business case. There is always a
business case. So step by step,
the journey came down and and, even me,
always interested about innovative process,
(27:28):
being more and more interested,
still looking at the product as
we need to deliver and we need to
create a desirable
product for a brand.
That's part of the DNA of a brand,
and that's why we we want to refer
to the consumer. But at the same time,
looking with the how is made, it's also
as much as important. And I think step
by step, I shift my mindset. Year by
(27:48):
year, I move away a little bit,
delegated all the the buying process, etcetera. And
I was more focused on the how how
we can
create still this beautiful pair of jeans
but in a more sustainable and responsible way.
So it shifts. So it's exposure. Exposure to
factories.
So on one side
and the other exposure is
(28:10):
how how brands behave.
How how top leadership
behave.
It's it's all about numbers, it's all about
shareholders, it's about
EBITDA, it's about margins, about selling the company,
how much we can sell for. So it's
it's it's purely dollars at the end of
(28:30):
the day. And the way they they were
behaving on the other side,
the way we were buying to the factory,
these two worlds for me was so far
away, two universe. I was saying, my God,
I'm working in the system, yeah, in a
way. I'm an actor of,
and I'm I'm I'm part of it. So
you start to reflect,
yeah, okay, I'm part of it. This is
(28:51):
this is why I'm paying my invoice or
the education of my daughters.
But can can can I challenge the system?
Can I think a little bit out of
the box and yeah? Creative thinking and and
try to
you cannot escape to the the worst and
to the, you know, to the financial metrics,
or you can you can release the pressure,
but try to offer something different.
So I think these two extremes from one
(29:13):
side to the other,
how I could could contribute to something different
and how to address some of these issues.
There's a few a number of things that
that just are sparking in me that I
want to follow-up with you and and then
ask you to tell the story about the
the decision
to to do something different, like, to to
break away from being part of that system
(29:34):
and to to take the risk and move
forward and and break break out. But one
of the things that's occurring to me is
it's interesting, like, you know, fast fashion versus
jeans. I always think of denim as this,
like, resilient,
duration oriented
material.
Plan to keep jeans and use them longer,
(29:55):
and that's like a point of at least
I thought it was, a point of pride
that this is a longer use item
and that,
it can get beaten up and it can
get reused and that kind of thing.
So that's one question, you know,
that that sort
of give, I would think, gives you kind
of an advantage for stepping into a new
way to think about,
(30:17):
how you buy your jeans that fits with
that more
long lasting rugged mentality.
So I'll start there. Does anything come up
around that, or I have that wrong?
No, no, no, no. Look,
the the the the the the story of
a pair of jeans is it's it's coming
from workwear. It's workwear. So it started I
know some still some suppliers in Italy are
starting to produce fabric in in the sixties,
(30:39):
seventies.
The first market was workwear. It was not
the fashion. So really to have this rough
I'm not going back to the cowboy or
whatever, but this rough divorce rough fabric that
can can long last, and you don't wash
it or whatever. So that that was the
the first purpose of of indigo fabric.
But step by step, I should fashion step
in the functionality. This appeal the fade out.
(31:00):
And today, if you look at we talk
about durability. I'm working on durability
because I think it's one of the angle
that legislation is going to step in. And
they are right, by the way. Durability of
a product, of a lifetime product,
what it is, how we measure it. And
I think if you look at durability of
pair of jeans today, my god, some of
it's it's a you you throw it away.
(31:20):
I mean, it's it's the quality
no. The fabric,
the the way
you you cannot buy you cannot buy
a pair of jeans at $19.19 dollars and
expect
something sustainable and durable, as a quality. That's
not possible. And it's not,
because as I said before,
something had be squeezed on the yarn, on
the fabric, on the Right.
(31:41):
So so yeah. So so that's why durability,
unfortunately. But I think it's going to be,
at least in Europe,
durability, it's one of angle that legislation is
really stepping.
Got it. And I think it's a good
direction.
Yeah. It's just an interesting thing. Like, you
know, what's the I was an identity consultant
years ago. You know, what's the identity of
jeans? And you take this durability and work
(32:03):
workhorse
that you only have to have one or
two pairs and they last you forever and
you you know, it goes on like that.
Two, it being a fast fashion, disposable,
poor quality
thing. I mean, you're you have to come
from that and now try to get it
pulled back into redefining it again as that
durable
quality fabric
(32:24):
and try to reuse that stuff they've come
up with. You imagine the paradox.
We use a raw fabric
foam, denim fabric. And what do we do?
We use it
artificially
in big industrial laundry to make it pre
worn for the consumer. So in a way
Right. From a very high quality point of
view of the fabric, we do the whole
(32:44):
we we do everything reverse.
We we are going to use it and
to make it the cotton is lost and
because it's a it's a stonewashed, there is
a lot of mechanical
and abrasion, etcetera.
Right. So we we had the final product
less durable. And during all this process, we
consume water,
chemistry,
expose people with, with with the with bad
(33:05):
processes. So we do completely things with us.
So if you want to have the best
pair of jeans today, it's
a
rinse, a robe, like I do. You buy
a raw fabric or raw jeans, and it's
going to fade on you. It's going to
be your own personality,
and you don't wash it. Yeah. That's the
best way. We we we we we, yeah,
we try to reproduce this work. And and
we're even tearing them. Like, we're the most
(33:27):
the more expense the more rips in them,
the more expensive they. Yeah. And we repair
them, and we will sell it. And it's
they are the most expensive ones because there
were many labor beyond. So tell us about
your break you know, your breakout, and you're
starting your own world, you know, your own
new approach to denim and and this,
this whole goal of of not starting from
(33:50):
scratch with new material every time and use
it and creating a healthier system and a
circular system that's not completely dependent on some
artificial short term bottom line that isn't even
really calculated correctly. So, look, the the approach
we have so this the the deal is
a foundation. So we are an NGO, so
there is no no money involved. But what
what we try to do is
to simplify for the brands, for the industry.
(34:12):
Great. Before you go on, just start what
just because I know what you just said,
but just slow that down and just describe
that. So your role is not production. Your
role is advising. Right?
So you're an NGO. We we are an
NGO,
and we build this ecosystem,
this collaborative
platform
between public, so governments,
authorities, and private. And private, it's brands, but
(34:34):
also the all industry stakeholders involved.
So with what we're trying to do is
to stimulate together and to focus and to
align
on only one metric that we choose.
It's
the the minimum of 20% post consumer recycled
cotton in a new fabric in the denim
world.
So we want to have this metric
aligned between legislature, legislator
(34:57):
brands, and industry stakeholders.
Let's guide. Instead of focusing
every brand has their own strategy or fiber
strategy or whatever. We just say, guys, the
best sustainable cotton is the recycled one.
So from waste, that's the best one. We
don't have to go to landfill, for to
agriculture, or whatever. This is that's something we
take from waste, post consumer waste. That's very
(35:18):
important. Post consumer, not industrial waste. And how
we can recreate
yarn or fabric with it. So we we
just established this very it's not a basic
standard, but, very clear
industry KPI that can be measured,
that can be verified,
and that can be monitored by everybody.
We said, guys, can we make sure that
(35:38):
it becomes
a industry standard for the all industry? So
step by step, what you try to do
is to bring brands on board,
brings a legislator. So the Dutch government was
really the our first sponsor at that time,
still still with us. And to to to
be aligned also with the we call it
EPR, so Extended Product Service Possibility because step
by step, even in US, California just signed
(36:01):
the bill a few a few a few
months ago, that the brands distributing or producing
this this, this, this article will be responsible
also for the for the landfill and for
the the end of life of the product.
Yeah. So in a way, we we try
to look at
let's leverage the power of legislation,
how we can find a very pragmatic solutions
for the for the market,
(36:21):
and to be concrete in the action and
collaboration.
So the technology
is here. It's at scale, but some of
the brands are still reluctant
to adopt this KPI.
Some of the industry, they don't know about
the technology it is. So we are here
to produce,
to connect, and to, connect the dots between
all the stakeholders and to make sure we
(36:41):
have this reverse supply chain extremely effective. And
that step by step we create a movement.
More and more demand.
This is the the scale. Scale is very
important. More and more demand and we are
more and more aligned. And then
the the business model, the pricing, the costing,
everything's go down. So at the beginning was
a little bit of roller coaster. I think
we we were one of the leader of
(37:03):
the front runners.
But step by step with volumes when you
when you bring millions of pieces and you
ask the same thing to the industry, the
industry
is extremely capable to adapt, to invest,
if only if they have visibility and commitment
from the brands.
So that's what we do the the last
the last four years successfully in Europe. We
started in Netherlands.
(37:23):
And now we are expanding. We are going
to launch in France. We are going to
launch in Germany.
We're in discussion with India. And I'm I'm
approaching also The US market to see, how
we can build such an organization also, in
North America.
So you're saying the producers have the technologies
there, the will is there because it makes
it's an economic good economic choice,
(37:45):
especially if they're responsible for the downstream
impact
of production to use 20% that's already been
produced and doesn't have to go through that
whole process and cotton doesn't have to be
grown and dyed and all that. But it's
the brands that have to decide
that it's a
value add to their brand.
Right? The the the the the mindset shift
(38:06):
for us,
the most difficult is to foster the demand,
to make sure brands are collaborating,
contributing,
asking for this KPI.
There is still, for many reason or different
region of the world, but different lack of
expertise,
some of them, about what is circularity, what
is recycled cotton fiber. There is less and
(38:27):
less technical expertise in brands. There is a
lack of maturity most of the time. And
and after, there is plenty of excuses. Quality
is not going to be the same as
virgin cotton. It's going to be more pricing
because my margin. So there there is a
there is a lot of excuses from the
rest not to adopt it. So this is
where we have to step in. This is
where we have we are not in education,
(38:47):
but we provide a lot of webinars,
workshops,
proof of concept, and pilots to show them
guys,
look, this is the same fabric
without recycled cotton and with only virgin cotton.
Can you make the difference?
We did organize this blind test. It was
quite funny, to be honest. Look at Pepsi.
Recycled or not recycled. No, no, no. Same
(39:07):
fabric and say, guys, look, same fabric. One
is with recycled and one is without.
Designers, they think they know forever or buyers
or whatever, sourcing manager or quality manager. They
had no clue. They could not distinguish. Well,
you said earlier that you couldn't even tell,
and this is not what you do. But,
but sometimes we have to arrive to this
kind of workshop, extremely concrete with meals in
(39:28):
the room,
providing all the collection. And we said, guys,
it's very simple. Everything you bring here in
this room, in this showroom, it's with 20%
post consumer recycled cotton. That's mandatory. There is
nothing else.
And and and people were surprised because you
you still have meat buster in this industry.
But even the younger generation, they they don't
(39:49):
there there is no, there is no the
expertise doesn't go back to the young generation.
And I feel guilty sometimes, to be honest.
And that's why also one of my center
of interest is not to change, but how
we can make sure that these young designers,
young product developers,
we give them the tools to start in
the right path. Because, my God, if you
want to change, we need to change the
young generation.
(40:10):
Yeah. And and you had mentioned to me
before this that you're getting into the schools.
You're getting into the schools where the designers
are being trained
and giving them this insight so that they
come out without the myths from the older
generations telling them that this is no good.
Yeah.
Can you you you can do two reactions
because I I know the the dinosaurs also,
and suddenly,
(40:31):
they discover they have they feel guilty. So
you you yeah. Like like like me in
a way. You feel guilty before because we
didn't know, to be honest. We were not
aware of what we were doing. And and
now you said, no. Now let's do the
right stuff. So in a way, our responsibility,
we knew the the before and the after.
But for the young generation, we have to
get only the after. And they don't need
to know and spend time on what how
(40:51):
it was before. And, that's why we we
spend quite a lot of time with with
schools in Amsterdam, in Paris,
how to but they they are more receptive
for the, you know, for the cause, first.
Well, they've got all this new anxiety thing
going. Right? So this gives them
some some empowerment
to say, I can do something. Like, there
(41:13):
is something positive that exists that works
to take a step forward.
And and you want you can feel they
are they really want to contribute. They want
to be part of the change. Mhmm. And
so I think I think they will be
part of it. I'm I'm more
concerned on how the brands can provide this
education because
internally,
unfortunately, there is not such knowledge, expertise sharing
(41:35):
in brands today. It's it's, yeah, it's a
you're a product developer, you're a designer, you
design your product. But there is there is
no ingredients. We don't give them these tools.
That's the problem, I believe. Why? What changed?
I don't know. The it's,
and and the name especially, it's not a
t shirt. It's not a so you you
need to know a little bit a little
bit behind the scene how who are the
(41:56):
males, who are the guys, who are the
good ones, the bad ones. And, you need
to have a minimum of technical
knowledge or, base to understand a little bit
the dynamics here. And I think we don't
provide or some some people come from design
from another project to denim. So it's so
we try to build this community, but there
there is not such a educational platform. I
(42:16):
mean, I'm picturing that in the past when
it all started, which wasn't that long ago,
that you understood
where it all came from. Like, you understood
the whole supply chain and that you were
starting with cotton. You know, you were starting
with the farmer. You were starting with how
it all
moves forward and what the all the parts
of the puzzle are. And now you've got
(42:37):
just you're sitting in front of a computer
and just typing stuff, you know, and looking
at pictures. Is is that, you know, is
that the big change? And if so,
do you bring people back
to where it starts in nature and get
them to understand? Is that helpful?
Look.
Incorporate. I'm not I cannot say name, but
I have the chance to work in different,
(42:59):
different size. Yeah.
The first part of my career,
I never touched a system.
My people or my designers, my product developers,
what they were doing
every day is to touch product, to touch
fabrics,
creating technical packs at the minimum. Yeah.
But they they were really on product %
(43:20):
of the time. %.
If you look now, what what what what's
the role and the job description of a
product developer
today, in a in a corporate,
but you spend 98%
behind the computer
feeding the system, feeding the ERP, feeding the
all these software,
where is coming from the content.
(43:41):
So you became a secretary
to feed the monster
and the objective is to make reports.
Yeah. Make reports. Report is very important.
This report culture, how many it is or
sometimes traceability.
Let's put everything in the computer and we
can trace everything.
It's all data and it depends on what
you do with the data. It's all data.
(44:02):
There's no. They put data.
How much time they spend on product? Not
a lot. I can tell you the frustration
of the young generation not spending time on
fitting,
on fabric research,
on whatever, on the inspiring trip. We used
to travel for inspiring to Tokyo, to Japan
to see new things.
Yeah. This is there is not so much
happening these days. It's it's really behind the
(44:24):
computer.
So is that it sounds like that's some
of what you're doing, like, that you're getting
people to come out and touch the difference
between the fabrics. And
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For example, to to to
kill this mid buster about recycled cotton, it's
bad quality.
Visually, it's bad. So we we tackled the
contrary. Yeah. Like, look. This all the fabrics.
These jeans have been made with this, this,
this, this. And show them. Touch them. Wear
(44:46):
them. Try on,
and tell me the difference. Did you see
did you feel any difference? And we even
showed the lab report about,
steering strengths, long distance have the data and
the reports. Yeah. Yeah. This you can have
it. So look, on top of it, the
the as durable as a virgin cotton. So
can you tell me now what should be
the excuse not to adopt it? So that's
that's why we try to reverse the equation.
(45:08):
There is no more excuses not to adopt
such a metric. We have to make it
very
accessible,
understandable,
and very pragmatic with with showcase some product.
That's the best thing.
So it sounds like it's going well. You've
got this just tell us about, like, this
bigger goal. Like, where where are you going
from here? What are some of your dreams
about where this, you know, where this goes
(45:29):
next? You know, we like to dream
The first three years in just in Netherlands,
we
we we produce
around 12,000,000
pair of jeans with this 20%,
post consumer recycled cotton.
The initial target given by the Dutch woman
was 3,000,000. So we multiplied by four,
the initial target. So we were extremely Wow.
(45:49):
Happy.
And now for for the global perspective, because
now we want to become global, we would
like to reach a billion
pair of genes by twenty thirteen, five years,
because if we reach the right guys, the
right brands,
the right industry, we believe that we can
we can tackle 20% of the yearly market
production. Tipping point? Is that the tipping point?
(46:11):
Like, if you feel like you can get
to a billion pairs
and make it somewhat global that, like, it'll
be an acceptable
brand,
identity. So so that's why we choose this
metric of 20% because
it's already,
there. The technology exists. It's quite scalable already.
So it's not it's not too too, too
(46:33):
demanding because if we put the bar too
high,
if we keep the number of the impact
would be less. Yeah? So we try to
choose, a metric that we we we drive
a big impact. I prefer to do a
billion genes with 20% POCR than
than 10,000 genes with % recycled
cotton. Yeah. Because we we have to we
have to look at the scale and how
(46:54):
many
metric tons of waste, post consumer waste, we
are going to, put it back in the
loop.
This is our this is our objective. So
that's why we chose this metric because it's
with a little effort, it's achievable.
And it touches 6,000,000
people instead of only 10,000 people. So they're
part of the the new system.
(47:15):
Exactly. You transform step by step the industry,
and everybody knows about knows about the Dunningdale
in the industry.
We try to be a little bit everywhere
in the world to speak about it, and
I think the industry is quite enthusiastic.
The the only thing is that, Nicolas, amazing
or whatever, we have the technology, but we
need demand. We we need to get the
orders.
And that's that's that's the thing. I mean,
(47:35):
it happens the same with, you know, chemical
recycling fibers in in the in the in
The Nordics, in Europe,
with this renew sale, bankrupt, or etcetera.
The concept is there. Everything is there. But
if there is no demand, this this company
go bankruptcy. So so that's why we we
choose we choose this metric that it's already
at scale and mature, the technology that we
can scale, scale around.
(47:57):
Well, it's interesting because the sale has to
be if you need demand,
the brand has to claim something that people
want.
So we need to claim that it's a
good thing to recycle. It's a good thing
to have five to not keep abusing the
earth and and to save
6,000,000,000
times 20% of the amount of cotton that's
(48:18):
not used, like and indigo and chemicals and
all the rest of it. Like, how's how's
that going? Because that's the your n g
you know, big part of your NGO's role.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. So So this is probably
the the phase the b two c because
we have probably the power, even as an
NGO,
as a done deal, as a foundation,
I think we have to
we have to work on the narrative regarding
(48:39):
the consumer. Because is is in the equation
is the is the one the is the
one's going to decide. And if we can
have direct access us
directly the storytelling,
inspiring storytelling to the consumer, I can tell
you the brands will run to us.
So this is the next phase of our
strategy. It's how we can provide added value
(48:59):
for the brand but with the consumer as
a target.
What would be the narrative? What how are
we going to tell our story
that it's a good thing to buy such
a product and the reason are
and I think we have to be completely
disruptive in the way we communicate that.
Because if you look the last ten, fifteen
years with the greenwashing, I think we have
been it was a tsunami of cacophony of
(49:22):
messages or whatever. I think we have to
think through and offer something a little bit
different, completely different to the consumer. And so
we are working on that. I think this
is a
the big piece that could also attract the
brands and there they will because you know
brands now what's happening They are so
scared with regulation coming. So it's not the
greenwashing
anymore. It's the greenwashing. So they stop any
(49:44):
communication.
So probably they were not doing a lot
anyway. But even people still doing stuff, they
don't they'd rather not to communicate. If you
say nothing, you can't get sued.
Right? You don't make any claims then, right?
It's a legal risk now. And, in a
way, sometimes we laugh with some some of
my colleagues,
but legal department took over the sustainable department.
(50:06):
They are the ones saying, yes. Incredible.
And most of the most of the time
is no. No. We don't go to this,
initiative. We don't go because we don't understand
it. We are not sure. And from a
legal perspective, we are at risk.
It's unbelievable.
This business has been ruled by the, yeah,
by the by the league. It's,
it depends which area in the world. Yeah.
(50:26):
But even then, so we we we believe
that if we if we work on this
directly communication to the consumer,
Why this pair of jeans is different, this
added value, whatever the the $20 retail more
and we'll adopt it. It is not going
to be easy again about adopt a communication
coming from somebody outside.
(50:46):
But we we make sure that everything that
we can claim would be back up with
report data certification. And the and this is
where we have the added value of self
the Dunningdale. It's we can prove.
Right. If you don't do that, we don't
know be proud of it. Be proud to
to share this truth of what we have
done. So I think this is where we
need to to step in. But I really
believe on the leverage
(51:08):
of authorities and legislation because has to be
mandatory. We need to squeeze a little bit
the pressure, but the consumer trigger is probably
the most powerful.
So the consumer has to be asking. So
let me ask you this. We'll wrap it
up with, what can we do
as consumers
to help move this along in denim and
in and in the world in general? Like,
what are the messages?
(51:28):
How can we help? And
then tell me what your dream tell us
what are your dreams? Because I think there's
something even
The first thing, the customer, look, it's
obviously you're attracted or not by this pair
of clothes whatever is the name whatever. So
I think this this
desirability
is still there. I mean you look good,
you feel good in this
(51:48):
cardigan or whatever. So I think I still
believe in in design. I still believe in
in creation and and how to attract the
consumer. So I think that's that's the first
thing we should steal. But after don't look
immediately to the the price tag. Yeah? Because
it's,
yeah, it's cheap. It's whatever it is. And
and most of the time, yeah, you don't
look where where where it's been made.
(52:09):
But you should look a little bit the
few information you have on the product, but
you don't have a lot, to be honest.
If you have a made in, normally, it's
it's mandatory in Europe. But look what it
has been made. And I think try to
think about it because you don't see the
other side of the the equation or this
little hands behind the
the the screen or behind the product who
has made all the effort and the way
they
(52:29):
live or whatever their stories, think about it.
But people are very compressive bias.
They please them first, but they don't think
through how they make it. That's the mentality.
That's the transformation we need, right? We need
some people, us to think about why is
this so cheap? What possibly could be happening
to create a pair of jeans that cost
$19
(52:50):
that I paid the same amount
forty years ago for? Like, what is not
working in this system that shouldn't you know,
what shouldn't be happening that's allowing me to
do this versus, hey. Yeah. I get to
get another pair of jeans that I'll wear
for one week.
Yeah. It's it's hard, but in a way,
if you look at the
the the economical situation in Europe, the consumer
(53:10):
behavior is shifting also because, yeah, the inflation
or whatever is is getting tougher, and people
buying cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. So it's
we are in this, you know, in this
this lab of this wheel and it's difficult
to get it out and how we can
give alternative to the consumers
and try to explain them. But there is
very, very I think France is not because
I'm French, but they try step by step
(53:32):
to sensualize even with, TV show TV,
spots
about recycling, reuse, repairs,
on textile,
on the electronics.
I think France in terms of consummation and
trying to engage the consumer, trying his best.
I'm not I'm not saying it's is it
working or not? But I think they this
(53:52):
they really step in, in this communication side.
France is certainly ahead of you. Yeah. France
I mean, on reporting, on requirements
that, you know, the the downstream, the upstream,
the whole cycle,
like, it's a lot of heavy stuff for
companies that do business in in France, but
somebody's gotta be in the lead. So thank
you. Yeah. Yeah. Because you need a front
(54:13):
runner. You need a leader. You need a
proof of concept, and you you and you
you have it has to be successful. And
step by step, you have the the followers
who jump in, and that's that's what we
try to do in the Zilliny deal to
get to get the right team, the right
brands, not because of the size, but inspiring
brands,
more front runners, good image. And then then
the others will come. It's it's always that.
(54:34):
That you need to create this this movement,
this energy. And step by step, you grow
like a snowball and it's become bigger. And
there are one momentum you're in magnet. Everybody
won't jump on us. So that's we are
in this phase now. We're not yet the
magnet, but we're we're a little snowball.
There's energy. From a per from a personal
experience, it's extremely motivating to do that than
(54:55):
to bring a a bottom line of margin
or EBITDA. It's so much more. Like, what
do you spend your days doing? You you
talk about things you wanna be talking about,
not about the margin
and the Exactly. So the east decimal
point. Try try try my best to change
the mindset of people. But that's that's where
we are. Oh, words of wisdom. What do
you got for us? Tell tell us how
(55:16):
we can all transform
the world.
Yeah. All transform. Yeah. Behaviors. Do do do
you need to buy all this stuff first?
Buy less, buy better.
And the few ones you buy,
try to understand,
how they have been made. Do you need
all this stuff? I'm wondering, I'm I'm not
a minimalist guy or whatever, but do do
(55:36):
we need to consume all this stuff? Do
you need all that? And when you when
you choose something, choose wisely, choose quality. That's
that's that's my wise words.
And I'm gonna add choose things that
you know are safe for your body when
you put them on your body or as
safe as possible.
As safe as possible. Exactly. And
thank you
(55:58):
So much. Such a joy hearing and so
important, the work you're doing. It's the the
energy that needs to transform the whole fashion
industry and to have to start somewhere and
and thank you for being the one to
start it. Thank you, Jessica.
(56:20):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(56:40):
Anything else to add, Miles?
Hello. Welcome to Resilience Gone Wild. I am
here as I love being with my fabulous
producer, Kai Sorensen,
director of podcasts for BLI.
And how are you? We haven't really chatted
that much lately. Yeah. Doing okay. I mean,
man, it'd be great if we could connect
every day. Right? But I know you you're
out there
volunteering your time to to Loggerhead right now,
(00:24):
and I don't know. It always seems like
every other day you're in a golf tournament,
which makes me jealous because we have to
put golf in. Canceled today. Which is why
we're a crazy storm last night with this
amazing, amazing lightning that we were watching for
a while, and it was Wow. Really close.
So we were outside, and then we weren't
outside.
I'm not really sure if lightning can go
through a doorway or not. But
Not the podcast for that.
(00:47):
Yeah. No. One of my favorite things is
to be on a porch covered with during
a thunderstorm. I just Yeah. That's what I
grew up doing. I'm from Nebraska, so big,
big thunderstorms there. So it's very, nostalgic feeling
for a thunderstorm to come through. It's good
to feel nature. Right? Like, to have that
in your hands. The power of it. As
long as there's no tornado behind it, you
know, you're always Yeah. Down for a thunderstorm.
(01:07):
Yep. And we do have some in Florida.
You have a lot more in Nebraska, but
we do have some here.
But so this has been a fascinating series,
and I know you've gotten a lot of
direct feedback, which is, you know, awesome when
someone texts like, please text us. You enjoyed
the episode. It was great. Yeah. I got
a number of I usually get a few,
and I I got, like, this swarm of
people who said that and I haven't had
(01:29):
a chance to check-in to say what exactly
resonated, but I think it was about people
coming out and and really fully being themselves,
which is really what indigo is about. Like,
you know, there's so much superpower hiding within
each and every one of us that Right.
We're we think we're humble, but we're really
just not giving our all to our life
and being in our full and giving our
(01:49):
all to others and to the world. So
yeah. Yeah. You know, it was something,
because often as I'm editing your podcast, you
know, it's a great opportunity for me to
journal after the fact. Awesome. And, you know,
it's so interesting
how, I don't know, maybe
half of your time, you're
you lean into a superpower, right? Like maybe
(02:09):
detail oriented or empathetic or, you know, those
kinds of things that you, like, wanna, you
highlight about yourself. And then there's, like, another
part of your life where you don't really
lean into those superpowers
in times where you need them, like maybe
in times of conflict or,
times of uncertainty. So it was really fascinating
being able to identify
what I perceive as a superpower of mine
(02:30):
and then Share, share, share. Come on. No
humility. Give us one.
And I'm gonna say I knew that about
you, right? But go ahead. I think the,
one of the superpowers I was circling in
my journal was empathy, but empathy for yourself
is something I lack.
Right? So it's like it's really powerful when
you can identify that emotion you have for
someone else, like my son or a best
(02:52):
friend or my wife,
but then Or your dog. Or my dog,
which Elroy. We went to the vet. I'll
tell you about it in a bit. But
how often do I have empathy for myself?
How often do I cut myself slack or
give myself grace? And it's just really interesting
how you can just, like, flip that conversation
for yourself. And Kai and I have talked
about you know, you and I have talked
about perfectionism
(03:12):
and the challenges that we have with it
and just having to say it's good enough
to just move on because you otherwise, you
get stuck. And, you know, empathy for yours
for ourselves
around
just,
being okay with that and and honoring that
and honoring the emotions that are so tough
to deal with when we don't wanna say
we're finished because it's not perfect. Perfect,
(03:33):
right?
Right, absolutely. And, you know, on the pragmatic
side of this series is this denim, right?
So, like, being a lot more conscious of,
you know, I love denim. I'm in a
psych rock band. I don't know, you knew
that. So there's a lot of denim being
worn,
in my life. You know, noticing,
like, I have this vintage
Calvin Klein
denim jacket that I love, and the quality
(03:53):
is amazing. It's probably been around for fifty
years, and it'll be around, I hope Miles
will wear it someday. It'll be one of
those pieces. But then I have- Recycling and
reusing. Exactly. Yeah. But then I have this
pair of denim jeans
that I got at Target because I needed
some jeans, and when I wear them now,
I'm like, these are gonna fall apart in
a year. I don't even think they're actually
denim. It's just that
(04:15):
oil, that petroleum based
issue that we kind of been talking about.
It's so funny, though, right? Like, did you
even think of this before the episode? Like,
before listening? Like, we're not aware of stuff,
right? We're absolutely not aware, but it's so
easy to go to a thrift store
and find exactly what you're looking for and
I guess when it concerns denim. But, tell
(04:35):
us a little bit about Nicholas before we
get to the interview. Yeah. I mean, I
met him online, one of my just amazing
connections that I've made on LinkedIn with so
many brilliant people. And he is just trying
to change the space of fast fashion,
fast fashion,
and the,
and the world that
is behind the scenes
(04:55):
needs to be uncovered like indigo. You know,
we think indigo is just this this, like,
lovely little green plant, and then it turns
out it has this unbelievable hidden
stuff behind it. Sometimes
that's not such a good story. Right? So
when you look at fast fashion and you
look at the history of denim and what's
really going on in the world of that
we live in around everything we wear. I
(05:17):
mean, we're not even gonna talk about food
or anything else right now. We're just talking
about clothing. And if we really start to
uncover
what's hiding, it's a really ugly story, but
it can be a really beautiful one if
we start with, you know, he's he's got
this
huge thing called denim deal. He's got all
these partnerships all around the world, big in
Egypt with Egyptian cotton and trying to use
(05:39):
a minimum of 20% recycled in the future
of cotton and and denim. And it really
changes everything. I mean, the scale of clothing
Yeah. Around the world. Just think about it.
I don't even know what the numbers are.
Trillions of dollars, right,
of both waste and cost. I mean, in
places like South America, there's deserts that are
literally
(05:59):
being taken over by
dumps of fashion, of clothing that is just
thrown out. I mean, literally covering deserts worth
where people, somebody's decided that that is useless
land and that's what it should be used
for. Yeah. Honestly, probably the pair of jeans
I bought at Target, the ones that didn't
pass quality check are probably
in
(06:19):
those piles
in the desert. Yeah. Or somebody who wore
it a couple times and said, Ah, this
isn't really my thing. I'm throwing it out.
Yeah. Yeah. Or giving it away to the
thrift shop and nobody wanted it.
Yeah, and I think one thing that popped
up for me with Nicholas is just how
impressive
he is, his passion. And, again, I think
we saw this, and we'll see this in
some interviews coming up with the Tasmanian devils.
(06:41):
But how is it never too late
in your life
to make that pivot and to make that
shift? Yeah, I did. Because he's he had
an entire career before
he realized
that his pursuits and passions were actually elsewhere
on and maybe a little
contradictory to the career he was leading. So
just really fascinating stuff.
(07:02):
And you get you make a really important
point. I mean, in both of these cases
that Kai's noting about the, the really awesome
guy that we talked to about, Tasmanian devils,
who's in Mhmm. Australia, is that it's it
gets uncomfortable
in life when you're doing work and you're
living just in conflict with your values. If
something just doesn't feel right and you're on
this just churning conveyor belt of doing doing,
(07:26):
and you don't stop because you're like, oh,
it's okay. It's okay. It's, you know, this
is the way the world works. I can't
really fight the world. And then you stop
and you say, wait. I can change the
way I behave, the way I live my
life, the way living my purpose instead of
being uncomfortable. It, you know, it changes everything
and changes the world. So in both of
these cases, you know, there was this huge
(07:46):
shift of
how they were living their lives and and
how they decided to live their lives.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
But shifting topics a little bit, you were
telling me a really interesting story about I
was at Friends that were visiting a national
park that kind of been affected by a
lot of the cuts we've seen lately? Yeah,
some friends were planning a vacation,
around now, and they were planning to go
(08:07):
to the national parks. It's not a it's
busy always in the national parks. As they've
been around since 1916 being protected, and it
it, they decided to travel outside The United
States instead. The they had become aware that
there was this massive firing from our current
government of all the ranger like, a a
ton of rangers and the people who literally
(08:28):
take care of the bathrooms and have the
keys to everything and keep us safe
and and make make these places accessible and
safe for both humans and nature.
And it was really beautiful to hear that
the judicial system has put a stop to
those fires. I mean, all those people, thousand
plus people, had been fired and had to
figure out what to do with themselves and
(08:50):
had to and these are not highly paid
people in the first place. So Mhmm. You
know, they're probably living hand to mouth and
just A labor of love. Labor of love.
Right? And then had to figure it all
out. So, hopefully,
many or most of them or all of
them are gonna be back, and they've gotta
hire now for the seasonal
workers for the the busy times. And I'm
just I'm really happy that there's a personally,
(09:11):
that there's a lot of other structure that
exists in this country
to stop
at least some of the damage that's being
done to our environment and our world of
nature here. I mean, you know, the drill,
drill, drill and the cutting down of national
parks for forestry and, you know, the water
pollution that's gonna happen and all the other
(09:31):
ripple effects that are are not that long
term, but longer term than let's just cut
a tree and make it into something for
today. -Mm -You know, it's a huge issue
in this day and age.
Yeah, you know, my mother-in-law was just here,
and she's from DC, and, you know,
my wife, my father-in-law
had a career in USAID, and my sister-in-law
(09:52):
was working for USAID. And I think in
those instances, it's not that you lost your
job. It's your entire industry is gone. So,
like, as you go into the job market,
there's no, like, someone else can help you
out because it just doesn't exist. And not
only that, all of these extremely capable and
(10:12):
master to doctorate level types of positions are
just, that are open in in like private
sectors are just
flooded with thousands of candidates. So I know
it's really scary for a lot of people
out there who have lost their jobs in
this way, but it's encouraging to, as you
say, see that some of these
checks and balances maybe are starting to work.
I mean, there's a lot to remain to
(10:34):
be seen, but the fact that we're entering
spring
into the the vacation time and, you know,
fingers crossed,
you know, our parks will be staffed and
we'll be able to enjoy
what is so beautiful about this country is
is the National Park Service. So Yeah. Let's
cross my fingers.
Yeah. So on a positive note, before we
get to the interview, wanna read a review?
(10:55):
Sure.
Alright. Does beak or ring a bell? Does
not.
Must beak is obviously their username. So beak
twenty four, five stars. Get inspired. Jessica has
a wonderful way of tying in themes that
relate to human experiences with those of our
neighbors of the animal kingdom and the natural
world around us. The topics are relevant, captivating,
and they give the listener a broader view
(11:15):
of how resilience
can be a powerful and positive force in
our lives, an enjoyable podcast, and a must
listen for inspiration and personal growth.
Thank you, Beak twenty four. So, so appreciate
you're posting the review and that we're so
thrilled that it's resonating and bringing you joy
and resilience. So thank you. And if you're
listening right now, before we get to the
(11:36):
interview, just hit pause real quick. Actually, don't
hit the hit pause. If you're not driving,
just go leave us a review. It really
does help the podcast stay relevant
in the machine, in the algorithm, in what
controls, the podcasting world. We want this message
of resilience and and love for nature to
get to the right people. So just leave
us a review and we'd really appreciate it.
All right, should we get to the interview?
(11:58):
Yeah, great. All right, here we go.
Welcome, Nicholas Proft.
You can correct me because it's French and
I'm doing, I tried. So, you know, I
tried to learn French many a time and
it's, there's a mind block. That's the thing,
Jessica. It's never too late. There's a mindset,
you see? You're right. We can learn anything.
(12:18):
But you have to prioritize.
Or and you get to prioritize.
So we can talk about French later. But
it is a total mindset. It's a mind
block that when I was in second grade,
my teacher
made me feel
stupid in the way I was pronouncing the
word for hello, which I am so uncomfortable
pronouncing. So I went to Paris, and I
(12:39):
went to the Sorbonne, and I tried to
learn French. And, like, it went on like
that, and it's still you're a hun %
right. It's a mindset, and that is what
we're here to talk about. So awesome. Isn't
it great how everything works out that way?
Okay. So I am so excited that you're
here. I'm gonna let you introduce yourself, but
just to, like, give a couple of key
points that that will light me up and
(13:00):
everybody else up. We're talking denim. We're talking
fast fashion versus
transformative
ways of, you know, transforming your mindset around
getting away from fast fashion and recycled cotton
and changing
the way we think about how we use
stuff and clothing and take care of our
(13:21):
world. So, yes. Okay. So tell us about
yourself. Yay. Myself, Basa. So I'm French,
of 53 years old.
My old career in the fashion industry by
choice and or in coincidence, but we can
come back after to that, why why I
came to the fashion industry.
And,
mainly on the brand side. So I always
work on the brand side,
(13:42):
always the head of
strategy of sourcing, strategy of buying, relationship with
the suppliers industry,
strategy in terms of sustainability, what we can
make in innovation, and my specialite specialty, let's
say expertise,
it's denim. I've done many, many all product
categories in my life. But the one I
stick with, the ones really in my vein,
(14:04):
my blue blood is really the Indigo so
it's the denim industry. For me
it's sorry if I pause here but it's
extremely
creative
industry, complex also I would say. But it's
a it's a kind of community that we
have. We know
we're like a big family, but, very interesting.
I've always been passionate about this, by by
(14:26):
this industry. So yeah. It's so interesting though
because you, you know, anything you don't know
about seems simple. Right? Like, so denim seems
like there's just how complicated, but it is,
as you just said, it's super complex
and interesting, and it's about community, and it's
about the whole system. So, yeah, you're go
ahead.
Yeah, it's extremely fragmented. You know, there is
(14:47):
many, many hands,
many suppliers, many different step in the production
process. It's very unique, indigo.
Why why we use this old plant? We
don't use plant anymore, unfortunately. It's petrol based
dye stuff. That's the problem. But it comes
from a very very long time Indigo to
us even the Egyptian fan. It's a long
time ago that we play with Indigo as
(15:07):
a dye stuff for and and it's quite
fascinating. So a lot of people, a lot
of countries, but also yeah big dilemma on
the last twenty years, thirty years,
Realizing,
producing this iconic, because for me, the most
fashion iconic is a pair of jeans. If
you look at the story of jeans coming
from, let's say Genova in Italy, coming from
US, or has been a long story, but
(15:30):
very iconic for the music music sides, movies.
I think it's still relevant. All generations,
young generation, everybody adopts this pair of fabric.
So that's why also I was quite, inspired
by the mindset and the to be the
rebel. Kind of, I'm a, I'm a kind
of rebel. Rebel, you know, always contest the
status quo, but we'll come back to that.
(15:50):
But that's, that's the product category I always
embrace. Yeah. Did you say you're like a
river? Is that what you just said?
No. I said the rebellion rebellion spirits, you
know?
Rebellion rebellion, you know, the name is always
yeah. Yeah. A little bit the guys'
parties,
thinking out of the box. It's a little
bit different. Yeah. I told my producer that
(16:11):
you reminded me of Bono. And honestly, like,
there's just so many players. So I'm sure
I'm not the only person who's ever said
that. But make sure, everybody, that you turn
on the YouTube video versus just the audio,
and you'll see what I'm talking about. So,
yeah, rebellion, like, shaking things up. I remember
the first conversation we had. It was all
about and that's what you're doing. Right? Like,
you're you can't transform
(16:31):
without breaking
the system
and recreating it and transforming it. So that's
so interesting, though, about indigo.
I hadn't thought about indigo. We didn't talk
about indigo. I did an article
recently in my newsletter about the finding blue
and blue purplys
are in nature are is not easy. Right?
Like, there's these incredibly complex
(16:54):
processes
to be able to find to create the
dye
in nature that's used in all of these
ancient, you know, whether it's
the, the tallit in the Jewish world or
it was the Mayan blue and and the
indigo of genes and and just the fact
that indigo is part of the Rojibib rainbow,
which is, you know, a color that I
don't think people think about. So, I look
(17:16):
forward to you telling us more about indigo
because I think it has a really deep
spiritual history I think. Unfortunately, the reality the
reality of the indigo we know today it's,
it's it's it's not very inspiring. Look, it's
a it's a synthetic molecule.
I think it's been invented by Bayer in
nineteenth century
And and in a way so it's it's
a petrol base. Right. We're trying to get
(17:37):
away from petrol based.
Yeah. We do it better. We we are
we are trying. I think we in my
career, I could play you can play with
the natural we call it indigo fair plant
mainly
was in India, and I think they're they're
still trying not to to get it back.
Because don't don't don't forget this ancestral
expertise or know how also was lost because
there was no demand. And they lost it,
(17:59):
but I think they're trying not to get
it back. I'm in contact with some of
the some of the suppliers in India that
they they use this plant, but in a
more modern way. I mean, I'm not going
to go too too technical, but that they
can produce big batch at scale,
saying that it's it's a natural beta. So
that's that there is a lot of stuff.
I work
with a big company
(18:21):
in US, at that time, Stony Creek.
It's, farmers in US
also planting indigo, back
and and try to have this, this new,
and try to create a kind of ecosystem
with big brands in US and and the
demands was was difficult. I think the the
problem of
it's like it's like polyester in a fast
(18:42):
fashion. It's it's so cheap, indigo, synthetic indigo.
And when you come back to this natural
base, the the price, you multiply by 10
by 20.
So the economical or the business model is
extremely, challenging.
But it's it's quite fascinating. There's a lot
of stuff happening the last
few years. New tech,
new startup looking at biosynthetic
(19:03):
or biosynthetic of indigo.
So using really, food waste, using different different
things. So really, it's bi biochemistry is exploding
everywhere, I believe. And and some of them
based in US, but also in France, are
attacking specifically the indigo market because it's huge.
Indigo market, it's six. I think we're producing
6,000,000,000
pair of genes per year. So you can
(19:24):
imagine the amount of indigo,
molecule and chemistry that you need. Some of
some of the shakers
are arriving in the market to contest and
to take part of a piece of this,
of this, of this, monopole of a few,
few groups having this synthetic molecule enhancement.
So that's Wow. And that there is some
changes happening now, small scale. But
(19:45):
I believe that in few years, there will
be there will be newcomers. And we are
looking also at
sorry. I'm going technical. But digital
indigo digital printing.
Wow. It's also quite interesting what's happening now.
So we could,
we could avoid this long
process and water consumption energy
(20:05):
with digital printing, but with Indigo. And you
can replicate exactly the same details, the fading,
the Wait. Wait. So you can use three
d printing
and put the fiber, the natural fiber
of or recycled, partially recycled cotton
through a three d printer, if I have
the right technology. It's not a three d
printer. It's a it's a classic printer, ink
(20:26):
printer, but you could replicate on the on
the grayish fabric, on the cotton, or even
on the blend.
Put it on top. So you print it.
Yeah. And you can just print on top
of it and you can you can you
can print reverse. Well, the backside and the
side.
And, and I saw some samples. It's quite
amazing. Even me as an expert,
visually, I could not feel the difference. I
could not see the difference. Yeah. There were
(20:48):
some
some guys working on that since few years
now, but we can now we can see
some very, very nice samples.
There is a lot of technology behind. There
is a lot of,
software, AI,
how to help,
to have really these super refined details. And,
it's it's quite mind blowing. And and the
lead time and the the flexibility,
(21:08):
it's very interesting. So things are moving.
It's amazing. So, you know, it's a this
just to to the aspect of system, you
know, who would have thought, I didn't,
that when you think about creating the 6,000,000,000
pairs of denim jeans that get they get
made every year, that the we're not just
talking about the material. We're talking about the
color
(21:30):
of the and the indigo and the complexity
of that and then the whole system that's
needed and getting away from, you know, reusing
and recycling
so that we're not using all new material
and
and just throwing old stuff out and
finding new ways to replace whatever the artificial,
the synthetic
inputs are to the system. Because it what
(21:51):
do we wanna wear in our bodies? What
do we wanna put in our bodies? I
mean, there's there needs to be more thought,
right, about what we're
doing, not just to our world, but our
own bodies as well.
Yeah. But look look
you can debate on the consumer behavior. But
do do they think some of them, yes.
Probably they do. But most of them, what
is the act of the buying act? What
(22:12):
is the trigger? Yeah? Right. And I think
brands are extremely or fast fashion or
tough as fashion. They are here to stimulate
you all the time, to bombarding you, and
that you have to consume things that you
don't need at the end of the day.
But, but, and unfortunately,
the fashion industry in general, but also the
denim industry, a pair of jeans became a
(22:32):
commodity year by year,
decade by decade. Look, I have twenty five
years experience.
I've been buying
my whole life.
I can tell you that
twenty five from the price we can buy
a pair of jeans today in Bangladesh or
twenty five years ago,
probably decreased.
It decreased.
So the FOB, the added value, it becomes
(22:54):
a very commodity. And after
you you wonder why,
who's skipping one of the step? Who is
skipping something on the human side? It's not
normal that we have inflation for the last
twenty five years, inflation. So as a consumer,
you pay more. But from a buying perspective,
I can tell you the price are the
tighter or even lower than before. So there
is something
(23:14):
purely mathematic here that's not working. So so
there is something wrong here. And I'm I'm
sure you know, though, every all the inputs
to the system. So we're talking labor, how
we value
human labor,
and how we value the destruction of of
our planet
and whether we care or not. And those
are just two of the pieces of the
inputs. Yeah. I mean, there's there you get
(23:35):
your circular economy and your recycled and, you
know, all of this
transformative thinking about caring
about how the system works and and wondering
why some things are cheaper than they should
be and some things are not. Let me
ask stop you for one sec because I
I love to hear the story of how
people make these transformations
from you started in and spent your life
(23:56):
in branding and in denim and in a
and in fashion. And
then,
among other experiences, probably, you went to Ghana,
right, and had this, like, moment
that changed some of your thinking and transformed
your goals and purpose. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So Tell us that story.
It was not Ghana, but it was look.
(24:18):
No. It's okay. It's okay. No problem. You
I had the chance to have
quite a lot of responsibility young. So I
I traveled a lot my whole life. Probably
today for the younger generation,
it would be even more difficult to be
exposed to the real industry. But I have
the chance
to very soon to to travel to Bangladesh,
to India, to Pakistan, to Cambodia, all the
(24:39):
Southeast Of Asia.
And from the books that I learned because
I'm a textile engineer
you you are confronted to the the yeah
the the rough reality of what is a
what is a factory.
How it's made.
Who are the people behind the machines?
In which condition they are working.
You can imagine Bangladesh or India with 35
degrees or 40 degrees outside,
(25:00):
sometimes without any echo you can imagine. But
I think you see what it's in the
factories because don't forget that they customize and
you're more than welcome as a buyer, so
everything is prepared
probably a month before.
So what you see is always the best.
Yeah? You will never see the worst. But
if you're curious and if you see around
the around the factory
(25:22):
going at the corner, you can see also,
yeah, the rivers. You can see the condition,
the life condition of these people where they're
living close by the factory.
I remember my first trip in China. Yeah.
People were living in the factory. Yeah. That
was the Chinese model twenty five years ago,
and they will come back only for the
Chinese New Year to their to their homeland,
to their family.
(25:42):
So the it was really
it was really shocking for me, yeah, because
they were here twenty four hours at the
service of the bus. And if they were
late or lead time squeezing for the buyers,
they had to, yeah, probably work
shift, night shift, day shift, weekends.
So you're confronted and you you say, wow.
That's
tough. That's tough. But I was young. I
(26:03):
know what I was
I have to prove myself. I have to
make the best. So you look at it.
You understand it. But in a way, you
have to deliver.
You have to deliver for the brands. You
have to make your own job. So you
continue.
Step by step, I think this,
you get immaturity, you get, get more concerned.
And twenty five years ago, nobody was really
talking about sustainability.
(26:23):
Nobody was talking about resources.
Social a little bit. The the the the
mindset start to change, yeah, fifteen years ago.
At least the denim industry was quite
finger pointed,
because of the laundry system, because of the
washes, industrial washes. So in a way, we
were the first one not targeted.
(26:43):
The first one asking the question, are we
doing the right stuff?
Can we do it in a different way?
So I think it's it's starting to germ
here the idea. Can we change a little
bit the process to be
less water consumption? How we can have a
look at the chemistry?
We've understood exposure of chemistry, you know, a
lot of
handwork with chemistry, with chemicals, with spray, hand
(27:05):
scrapping,
this huge factory. You could see 5,000 people,
scrapping the jeans like that with the dust
and etcetera.
So they start they start to reflect on
some of the people, yeah, like startup to
say, look, probably we have a better technology
to avoid all this. And, of course, to
make a business case. There is always a
business case. So step by step,
the journey came down and and, even me,
always interested about innovative process,
(27:28):
being more and more interested,
still looking at the product as
we need to deliver and we need to
create a desirable
product for a brand.
That's part of the DNA of a brand,
and that's why we we want to refer
to the consumer. But at the same time,
looking with the how is made, it's also
as much as important. And I think step
by step, I shift my mindset. Year by
(27:48):
year, I move away a little bit,
delegated all the the buying process, etcetera. And
I was more focused on the how how
we can
create still this beautiful pair of jeans
but in a more sustainable and responsible way.
So it shifts. So it's exposure. Exposure to
factories.
So on one side
and the other exposure is
(28:10):
how how brands behave.
How how top leadership
behave.
It's it's all about numbers, it's all about
shareholders, it's about
EBITDA, it's about margins, about selling the company,
how much we can sell for. So it's
it's it's purely dollars at the end of
(28:30):
the day. And the way they they were
behaving on the other side,
the way we were buying to the factory,
these two worlds for me was so far
away, two universe. I was saying, my God,
I'm working in the system, yeah, in a
way. I'm an actor of,
and I'm I'm I'm part of it. So
you start to reflect,
yeah, okay, I'm part of it. This is
(28:51):
this is why I'm paying my invoice or
the education of my daughters.
But can can can I challenge the system?
Can I think a little bit out of
the box and yeah? Creative thinking and and
try to
you cannot escape to the the worst and
to the, you know, to the financial metrics,
or you can you can release the pressure,
but try to offer something different.
So I think these two extremes from one
(29:13):
side to the other,
how I could could contribute to something different
and how to address some of these issues.
There's a few a number of things that
that just are sparking in me that I
want to follow-up with you and and then
ask you to tell the story about the
the decision
to to do something different, like, to to
break away from being part of that system
(29:34):
and to to take the risk and move
forward and and break break out. But one
of the things that's occurring to me is
it's interesting, like, you know, fast fashion versus
jeans. I always think of denim as this,
like, resilient,
duration oriented
material.
Plan to keep jeans and use them longer,
(29:55):
and that's like a point of at least
I thought it was, a point of pride
that this is a longer use item
and that,
it can get beaten up and it can
get reused and that kind of thing.
So that's one question, you know,
that that sort
of give, I would think, gives you kind
of an advantage for stepping into a new
way to think about,
(30:17):
how you buy your jeans that fits with
that more
long lasting rugged mentality.
So I'll start there. Does anything come up
around that, or I have that wrong?
No, no, no, no. Look,
the the the the the the story of
a pair of jeans is it's it's coming
from workwear. It's workwear. So it started I
know some still some suppliers in Italy are
starting to produce fabric in in the sixties,
(30:39):
seventies.
The first market was workwear. It was not
the fashion. So really to have this rough
I'm not going back to the cowboy or
whatever, but this rough divorce rough fabric that
can can long last, and you don't wash
it or whatever. So that that was the
the first purpose of of indigo fabric.
But step by step, I should fashion step
in the functionality. This appeal the fade out.
(31:00):
And today, if you look at we talk
about durability. I'm working on durability
because I think it's one of the angle
that legislation is going to step in. And
they are right, by the way. Durability of
a product, of a lifetime product,
what it is, how we measure it. And
I think if you look at durability of
pair of jeans today, my god, some of
it's it's a you you throw it away.
(31:20):
I mean, it's it's the quality
no. The fabric,
the the way
you you cannot buy you cannot buy
a pair of jeans at $19.19 dollars and
expect
something sustainable and durable, as a quality. That's
not possible. And it's not,
because as I said before,
something had be squeezed on the yarn, on
the fabric, on the Right.
(31:41):
So so yeah. So so that's why durability,
unfortunately. But I think it's going to be,
at least in Europe,
durability, it's one of angle that legislation is
really stepping.
Got it. And I think it's a good
direction.
Yeah. It's just an interesting thing. Like, you
know, what's the I was an identity consultant
years ago. You know, what's the identity of
jeans? And you take this durability and work
(32:03):
workhorse
that you only have to have one or
two pairs and they last you forever and
you you know, it goes on like that.
Two, it being a fast fashion, disposable,
poor quality
thing. I mean, you're you have to come
from that and now try to get it
pulled back into redefining it again as that
durable
quality fabric
(32:24):
and try to reuse that stuff they've come
up with. You imagine the paradox.
We use a raw fabric
foam, denim fabric. And what do we do?
We use it
artificially
in big industrial laundry to make it pre
worn for the consumer. So in a way
Right. From a very high quality point of
view of the fabric, we do the whole
(32:44):
we we do everything reverse.
We we are going to use it and
to make it the cotton is lost and
because it's a it's a stonewashed, there is
a lot of mechanical
and abrasion, etcetera.
Right. So we we had the final product
less durable. And during all this process, we
consume water,
chemistry,
expose people with, with with the with bad
(33:05):
processes. So we do completely things with us.
So if you want to have the best
pair of jeans today, it's
a
rinse, a robe, like I do. You buy
a raw fabric or raw jeans, and it's
going to fade on you. It's going to
be your own personality,
and you don't wash it. Yeah. That's the
best way. We we we we we, yeah,
we try to reproduce this work. And and
we're even tearing them. Like, we're the most
(33:27):
the more expense the more rips in them,
the more expensive they. Yeah. And we repair
them, and we will sell it. And it's
they are the most expensive ones because there
were many labor beyond. So tell us about
your break you know, your breakout, and you're
starting your own world, you know, your own
new approach to denim and and this,
this whole goal of of not starting from
(33:50):
scratch with new material every time and use
it and creating a healthier system and a
circular system that's not completely dependent on some
artificial short term bottom line that isn't even
really calculated correctly. So, look, the the approach
we have so this the the deal is
a foundation. So we are an NGO, so
there is no no money involved. But what
what we try to do is
to simplify for the brands, for the industry.
(34:12):
Great. Before you go on, just start what
just because I know what you just said,
but just slow that down and just describe
that. So your role is not production. Your
role is advising. Right?
So you're an NGO. We we are an
NGO,
and we build this ecosystem,
this collaborative
platform
between public, so governments,
authorities, and private. And private, it's brands, but
(34:34):
also the all industry stakeholders involved.
So with what we're trying to do is
to stimulate together and to focus and to
align
on only one metric that we choose.
It's
the the minimum of 20% post consumer recycled
cotton in a new fabric in the denim
world.
So we want to have this metric
aligned between legislature, legislator
(34:57):
brands, and industry stakeholders.
Let's guide. Instead of focusing
every brand has their own strategy or fiber
strategy or whatever. We just say, guys, the
best sustainable cotton is the recycled one.
So from waste, that's the best one. We
don't have to go to landfill, for to
agriculture, or whatever. This is that's something we
take from waste, post consumer waste. That's very
(35:18):
important. Post consumer, not industrial waste. And how
we can recreate
yarn or fabric with it. So we we
just established this very it's not a basic
standard, but, very clear
industry KPI that can be measured,
that can be verified,
and that can be monitored by everybody.
We said, guys, can we make sure that
(35:38):
it becomes
a industry standard for the all industry? So
step by step, what you try to do
is to bring brands on board,
brings a legislator. So the Dutch government was
really the our first sponsor at that time,
still still with us. And to to to
be aligned also with the we call it
EPR, so Extended Product Service Possibility because step
by step, even in US, California just signed
(36:01):
the bill a few a few a few
months ago, that the brands distributing or producing
this this, this, this article will be responsible
also for the for the landfill and for
the the end of life of the product.
Yeah. So in a way, we we try
to look at
let's leverage the power of legislation,
how we can find a very pragmatic solutions
for the for the market,
(36:21):
and to be concrete in the action and
collaboration.
So the technology
is here. It's at scale, but some of
the brands are still reluctant
to adopt this KPI.
Some of the industry, they don't know about
the technology it is. So we are here
to produce,
to connect, and to, connect the dots between
all the stakeholders and to make sure we
(36:41):
have this reverse supply chain extremely effective. And
that step by step we create a movement.
More and more demand.
This is the the scale. Scale is very
important. More and more demand and we are
more and more aligned. And then
the the business model, the pricing, the costing,
everything's go down. So at the beginning was
a little bit of roller coaster. I think
we we were one of the leader of
(37:03):
the front runners.
But step by step with volumes when you
when you bring millions of pieces and you
ask the same thing to the industry, the
industry
is extremely capable to adapt, to invest,
if only if they have visibility and commitment
from the brands.
So that's what we do the the last
the last four years successfully in Europe. We
started in Netherlands.
(37:23):
And now we are expanding. We are going
to launch in France. We are going to
launch in Germany.
We're in discussion with India. And I'm I'm
approaching also The US market to see, how
we can build such an organization also, in
North America.
So you're saying the producers have the technologies
there, the will is there because it makes
it's an economic good economic choice,
(37:45):
especially if they're responsible for the downstream
impact
of production to use 20% that's already been
produced and doesn't have to go through that
whole process and cotton doesn't have to be
grown and dyed and all that. But it's
the brands that have to decide
that it's a
value add to their brand.
Right? The the the the the mindset shift
(38:06):
for us,
the most difficult is to foster the demand,
to make sure brands are collaborating,
contributing,
asking for this KPI.
There is still, for many reason or different
region of the world, but different lack of
expertise,
some of them, about what is circularity, what
is recycled cotton fiber. There is less and
(38:27):
less technical expertise in brands. There is a
lack of maturity most of the time. And
and after, there is plenty of excuses. Quality
is not going to be the same as
virgin cotton. It's going to be more pricing
because my margin. So there there is a
there is a lot of excuses from the
rest not to adopt it. So this is
where we have to step in. This is
where we have we are not in education,
(38:47):
but we provide a lot of webinars,
workshops,
proof of concept, and pilots to show them
guys,
look, this is the same fabric
without recycled cotton and with only virgin cotton.
Can you make the difference?
We did organize this blind test. It was
quite funny, to be honest. Look at Pepsi.
Recycled or not recycled. No, no, no. Same
(39:07):
fabric and say, guys, look, same fabric. One
is with recycled and one is without.
Designers, they think they know forever or buyers
or whatever, sourcing manager or quality manager. They
had no clue. They could not distinguish. Well,
you said earlier that you couldn't even tell,
and this is not what you do. But,
but sometimes we have to arrive to this
kind of workshop, extremely concrete with meals in
(39:28):
the room,
providing all the collection. And we said, guys,
it's very simple. Everything you bring here in
this room, in this showroom, it's with 20%
post consumer recycled cotton. That's mandatory. There is
nothing else.
And and and people were surprised because you
you still have meat buster in this industry.
But even the younger generation, they they don't
(39:49):
there there is no, there is no the
expertise doesn't go back to the young generation.
And I feel guilty sometimes, to be honest.
And that's why also one of my center
of interest is not to change, but how
we can make sure that these young designers,
young product developers,
we give them the tools to start in
the right path. Because, my God, if you
want to change, we need to change the
young generation.
(40:10):
Yeah. And and you had mentioned to me
before this that you're getting into the schools.
You're getting into the schools where the designers
are being trained
and giving them this insight so that they
come out without the myths from the older
generations telling them that this is no good.
Yeah.
Can you you you can do two reactions
because I I know the the dinosaurs also,
and suddenly,
(40:31):
they discover they have they feel guilty. So
you you yeah. Like like like me in
a way. You feel guilty before because we
didn't know, to be honest. We were not
aware of what we were doing. And and
now you said, no. Now let's do the
right stuff. So in a way, our responsibility,
we knew the the before and the after.
But for the young generation, we have to
get only the after. And they don't need
to know and spend time on what how
(40:51):
it was before. And, that's why we we
spend quite a lot of time with with
schools in Amsterdam, in Paris,
how to but they they are more receptive
for the, you know, for the cause, first.
Well, they've got all this new anxiety thing
going. Right? So this gives them
some some empowerment
to say, I can do something. Like, there
(41:13):
is something positive that exists that works
to take a step forward.
And and you want you can feel they
are they really want to contribute. They want
to be part of the change. Mhmm. And
so I think I think they will be
part of it. I'm I'm more
concerned on how the brands can provide this
education because
internally,
unfortunately, there is not such knowledge, expertise sharing
(41:35):
in brands today. It's it's, yeah, it's a
you're a product developer, you're a designer, you
design your product. But there is there is
no ingredients. We don't give them these tools.
That's the problem, I believe. Why? What changed?
I don't know. The it's,
and and the name especially, it's not a
t shirt. It's not a so you you
need to know a little bit a little
bit behind the scene how who are the
(41:56):
males, who are the guys, who are the
good ones, the bad ones. And, you need
to have a minimum of technical
knowledge or, base to understand a little bit
the dynamics here. And I think we don't
provide or some some people come from design
from another project to denim. So it's so
we try to build this community, but there
there is not such a educational platform. I
(42:16):
mean, I'm picturing that in the past when
it all started, which wasn't that long ago,
that you understood
where it all came from. Like, you understood
the whole supply chain and that you were
starting with cotton. You know, you were starting
with the farmer. You were starting with how
it all
moves forward and what the all the parts
of the puzzle are. And now you've got
(42:37):
just you're sitting in front of a computer
and just typing stuff, you know, and looking
at pictures. Is is that, you know, is
that the big change? And if so,
do you bring people back
to where it starts in nature and get
them to understand? Is that helpful?
Look.
Incorporate. I'm not I cannot say name, but
I have the chance to work in different,
(42:59):
different size. Yeah.
The first part of my career,
I never touched a system.
My people or my designers, my product developers,
what they were doing
every day is to touch product, to touch
fabrics,
creating technical packs at the minimum. Yeah.
But they they were really on product %
(43:20):
of the time. %.
If you look now, what what what what's
the role and the job description of a
product developer
today, in a in a corporate,
but you spend 98%
behind the computer
feeding the system, feeding the ERP, feeding the
all these software,
where is coming from the content.
(43:41):
So you became a secretary
to feed the monster
and the objective is to make reports.
Yeah. Make reports. Report is very important.
This report culture, how many it is or
sometimes traceability.
Let's put everything in the computer and we
can trace everything.
It's all data and it depends on what
you do with the data. It's all data.
(44:02):
There's no. They put data.
How much time they spend on product? Not
a lot. I can tell you the frustration
of the young generation not spending time on
fitting,
on fabric research,
on whatever, on the inspiring trip. We used
to travel for inspiring to Tokyo, to Japan
to see new things.
Yeah. This is there is not so much
happening these days. It's it's really behind the
(44:24):
computer.
So is that it sounds like that's some
of what you're doing, like, that you're getting
people to come out and touch the difference
between the fabrics. And
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For example, to to to
kill this mid buster about recycled cotton, it's
bad quality.
Visually, it's bad. So we we tackled the
contrary. Yeah. Like, look. This all the fabrics.
These jeans have been made with this, this,
this, this. And show them. Touch them. Wear
(44:46):
them. Try on,
and tell me the difference. Did you see
did you feel any difference? And we even
showed the lab report about,
steering strengths, long distance have the data and
the reports. Yeah. Yeah. This you can have
it. So look, on top of it, the
the as durable as a virgin cotton. So
can you tell me now what should be
the excuse not to adopt it? So that's
that's why we try to reverse the equation.
(45:08):
There is no more excuses not to adopt
such a metric. We have to make it
very
accessible,
understandable,
and very pragmatic with with showcase some product.
That's the best thing.
So it sounds like it's going well. You've
got this just tell us about, like, this
bigger goal. Like, where where are you going
from here? What are some of your dreams
about where this, you know, where this goes
(45:29):
next? You know, we like to dream
The first three years in just in Netherlands,
we
we we produce
around 12,000,000
pair of jeans with this 20%,
post consumer recycled cotton.
The initial target given by the Dutch woman
was 3,000,000. So we multiplied by four,
the initial target. So we were extremely Wow.
(45:49):
Happy.
And now for for the global perspective, because
now we want to become global, we would
like to reach a billion
pair of genes by twenty thirteen, five years,
because if we reach the right guys, the
right brands,
the right industry, we believe that we can
we can tackle 20% of the yearly market
production. Tipping point? Is that the tipping point?
(46:11):
Like, if you feel like you can get
to a billion pairs
and make it somewhat global that, like, it'll
be an acceptable
brand,
identity. So so that's why we choose this
metric of 20% because
it's already,
there. The technology exists. It's quite scalable already.
So it's not it's not too too, too
(46:33):
demanding because if we put the bar too
high,
if we keep the number of the impact
would be less. Yeah? So we try to
choose, a metric that we we we drive
a big impact. I prefer to do a
billion genes with 20% POCR than
than 10,000 genes with % recycled
cotton. Yeah. Because we we have to we
have to look at the scale and how
(46:54):
many
metric tons of waste, post consumer waste, we
are going to, put it back in the
loop.
This is our this is our objective. So
that's why we chose this metric because it's
with a little effort, it's achievable.
And it touches 6,000,000
people instead of only 10,000 people. So they're
part of the the new system.
(47:15):
Exactly. You transform step by step the industry,
and everybody knows about knows about the Dunningdale
in the industry.
We try to be a little bit everywhere
in the world to speak about it, and
I think the industry is quite enthusiastic.
The the only thing is that, Nicolas, amazing
or whatever, we have the technology, but we
need demand. We we need to get the
orders.
And that's that's that's the thing. I mean,
(47:35):
it happens the same with, you know, chemical
recycling fibers in in the in the in
The Nordics, in Europe,
with this renew sale, bankrupt, or etcetera.
The concept is there. Everything is there. But
if there is no demand, this this company
go bankruptcy. So so that's why we we
choose we choose this metric that it's already
at scale and mature, the technology that we
can scale, scale around.
(47:57):
Well, it's interesting because the sale has to
be if you need demand,
the brand has to claim something that people
want.
So we need to claim that it's a
good thing to recycle. It's a good thing
to have five to not keep abusing the
earth and and to save
6,000,000,000
times 20% of the amount of cotton that's
(48:18):
not used, like and indigo and chemicals and
all the rest of it. Like, how's how's
that going? Because that's the your n g
you know, big part of your NGO's role.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. So So this is probably
the the phase the b two c because
we have probably the power, even as an
NGO,
as a done deal, as a foundation,
I think we have to
we have to work on the narrative regarding
(48:39):
the consumer. Because is is in the equation
is the is the one the is the
one's going to decide. And if we can
have direct access us
directly the storytelling,
inspiring storytelling to the consumer, I can tell
you the brands will run to us.
So this is the next phase of our
strategy. It's how we can provide added value
(48:59):
for the brand but with the consumer as
a target.
What would be the narrative? What how are
we going to tell our story
that it's a good thing to buy such
a product and the reason are
and I think we have to be completely
disruptive in the way we communicate that.
Because if you look the last ten, fifteen
years with the greenwashing, I think we have
been it was a tsunami of cacophony of
(49:22):
messages or whatever. I think we have to
think through and offer something a little bit
different, completely different to the consumer. And so
we are working on that. I think this
is a
the big piece that could also attract the
brands and there they will because you know
brands now what's happening They are so
scared with regulation coming. So it's not the
greenwashing
anymore. It's the greenwashing. So they stop any
(49:44):
communication.
So probably they were not doing a lot
anyway. But even people still doing stuff, they
don't they'd rather not to communicate. If you
say nothing, you can't get sued.
Right? You don't make any claims then, right?
It's a legal risk now. And, in a
way, sometimes we laugh with some some of
my colleagues,
but legal department took over the sustainable department.
(50:06):
They are the ones saying, yes. Incredible.
And most of the most of the time
is no. No. We don't go to this,
initiative. We don't go because we don't understand
it. We are not sure. And from a
legal perspective, we are at risk.
It's unbelievable.
This business has been ruled by the, yeah,
by the by the league. It's,
it depends which area in the world. Yeah.
(50:26):
But even then, so we we we believe
that if we if we work on this
directly communication to the consumer,
Why this pair of jeans is different, this
added value, whatever the the $20 retail more
and we'll adopt it. It is not going
to be easy again about adopt a communication
coming from somebody outside.
(50:46):
But we we make sure that everything that
we can claim would be back up with
report data certification. And the and this is
where we have the added value of self
the Dunningdale. It's we can prove.
Right. If you don't do that, we don't
know be proud of it. Be proud to
to share this truth of what we have
done. So I think this is where we
need to to step in. But I really
believe on the leverage
(51:08):
of authorities and legislation because has to be
mandatory. We need to squeeze a little bit
the pressure, but the consumer trigger is probably
the most powerful.
So the consumer has to be asking. So
let me ask you this. We'll wrap it
up with, what can we do
as consumers
to help move this along in denim and
in and in the world in general? Like,
what are the messages?
(51:28):
How can we help? And
then tell me what your dream tell us
what are your dreams? Because I think there's
something even
The first thing, the customer, look, it's
obviously you're attracted or not by this pair
of clothes whatever is the name whatever. So
I think this this
desirability
is still there. I mean you look good,
you feel good in this
(51:48):
cardigan or whatever. So I think I still
believe in in design. I still believe in
in creation and and how to attract the
consumer. So I think that's that's the first
thing we should steal. But after don't look
immediately to the the price tag. Yeah? Because
it's,
yeah, it's cheap. It's whatever it is. And
and most of the time, yeah, you don't
look where where where it's been made.
(52:09):
But you should look a little bit the
few information you have on the product, but
you don't have a lot, to be honest.
If you have a made in, normally, it's
it's mandatory in Europe. But look what it
has been made. And I think try to
think about it because you don't see the
other side of the the equation or this
little hands behind the
the the screen or behind the product who
has made all the effort and the way
they
(52:29):
live or whatever their stories, think about it.
But people are very compressive bias.
They please them first, but they don't think
through how they make it. That's the mentality.
That's the transformation we need, right? We need
some people, us to think about why is
this so cheap? What possibly could be happening
to create a pair of jeans that cost
$19
(52:50):
that I paid the same amount
forty years ago for? Like, what is not
working in this system that shouldn't you know,
what shouldn't be happening that's allowing me to
do this versus, hey. Yeah. I get to
get another pair of jeans that I'll wear
for one week.
Yeah. It's it's hard, but in a way,
if you look at the
the the economical situation in Europe, the consumer
(53:10):
behavior is shifting also because, yeah, the inflation
or whatever is is getting tougher, and people
buying cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. So it's
we are in this, you know, in this
this lab of this wheel and it's difficult
to get it out and how we can
give alternative to the consumers
and try to explain them. But there is
very, very I think France is not because
I'm French, but they try step by step
(53:32):
to sensualize even with, TV show TV,
spots
about recycling, reuse, repairs,
on textile,
on the electronics.
I think France in terms of consummation and
trying to engage the consumer, trying his best.
I'm not I'm not saying it's is it
working or not? But I think they this
(53:52):
they really step in, in this communication side.
France is certainly ahead of you. Yeah. France
I mean, on reporting, on requirements
that, you know, the the downstream, the upstream,
the whole cycle,
like, it's a lot of heavy stuff for
companies that do business in in France, but
somebody's gotta be in the lead. So thank
you. Yeah. Yeah. Because you need a front
(54:13):
runner. You need a leader. You need a
proof of concept, and you you and you
you have it has to be successful. And
step by step, you have the the followers
who jump in, and that's that's what we
try to do in the Zilliny deal to
get to get the right team, the right
brands, not because of the size, but inspiring
brands,
more front runners, good image. And then then
the others will come. It's it's always that.
(54:34):
That you need to create this this movement,
this energy. And step by step, you grow
like a snowball and it's become bigger. And
there are one momentum you're in magnet. Everybody
won't jump on us. So that's we are
in this phase now. We're not yet the
magnet, but we're we're a little snowball.
There's energy. From a per from a personal
experience, it's extremely motivating to do that than
(54:55):
to bring a a bottom line of margin
or EBITDA. It's so much more. Like, what
do you spend your days doing? You you
talk about things you wanna be talking about,
not about the margin
and the Exactly. So the east decimal
point. Try try try my best to change
the mindset of people. But that's that's where
we are. Oh, words of wisdom. What do
you got for us? Tell tell us how
(55:16):
we can all transform
the world.
Yeah. All transform. Yeah. Behaviors. Do do do
you need to buy all this stuff first?
Buy less, buy better.
And the few ones you buy,
try to understand,
how they have been made. Do you need
all this stuff? I'm wondering, I'm I'm not
a minimalist guy or whatever, but do do
(55:36):
we need to consume all this stuff? Do
you need all that? And when you when
you choose something, choose wisely, choose quality. That's
that's that's my wise words.
And I'm gonna add choose things that
you know are safe for your body when
you put them on your body or as
safe as possible.
As safe as possible. Exactly. And
thank you
(55:58):
So much. Such a joy hearing and so
important, the work you're doing. It's the the
energy that needs to transform the whole fashion
industry and to have to start somewhere and
and thank you for being the one to
start it. Thank you, Jessica.
(56:20):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(56:40):
Anything else to add, Miles?
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