October 28, 2024 • 51 mins
This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier review the All Blacks win over Japan in Yokohama and look ahead to Sunday morning's big test against England, we also review the NPC final and sit down with New Zealand Rugby chief executive Mark Robinson in London to chat some of the burning issues in the sport.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Yet inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliot Smith, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome into Rugby Direct to the podcast in just a second,
But just want to apologize for some of the audigo
issues in this week's podcast. The perils of doing it
over Internet and separate hemispheres sounds like I am underwater
here in London and while it was gray and rainy
here in London today, I'm going to assure you I
(00:47):
did it above ground. So apologies for the internet issues.
Hopefully you enjoy the podcast None of the Least plenty
on it today and including into with Mark Robinson, New
Zealand Rugby Chief Executive, so hopefully you can enjoy doun
the Least. Apologies again for the audigo issues, but on
with the pod.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Welcome into Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Talor By foot Solutions lifting you and your business to
a higher level. We've seen off Yokohama and Tokyo and
we've moved through London for a pleasure to be over there.
Over here, Elligant Fifth and Liam Apier big episode of
Rugby Direct coming up for an interview with Mark Robinson,
New Zealand Rugby Chief Executive.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
So I hope you'll.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Stick around for that, both with them a few hours
ago around a number of New Zealand rugby issues, including
the decision to endorse Print Robinson as World Rugby Chair.
I still will have that at the end of the
podcast to David Liam welcome and look, the Wellington Lyons
are at top of the pops in the NPC there.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Indeed, Elliott, big week for yourself and Rugby Directs. But
I do have an apology to make first up, because
I've been touting the fact that the lines are going
to go back to back all year and clearly how
I have offended out tuner lucky Brethren because of course
they won the MPC last year and we happened to
(02:14):
largely miss that competition being in France for the World Cup.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
But two titles in three years.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Very pleased to welcome you aboard the Lions train, so
congratulations to you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Very happy, Yeah, delighted, delighted to win for season and charge.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
That's the kind of.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Expect that I bring as a hand a Crusader fan.
So you are very very welcome to that an ancient fan.
Let's get into the MPCs shortly, but first and foremost
ill Black against Japan. This is a weird old game,
and your respects. I thought Bill Blacks at one point
(02:55):
looked like it'd score every time they got the ball
and hands and others. The defense was lacking the mats
and sloppy eerrors. It's a really really hard game to
try and provide any sort of analysis on, but we
will attempt to.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
What did you make it that perm.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Yeah, it was a bit all over the show, wasn't it?
Like you say?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
The All Blacks cracked the fifty points after forty four minutes,
and they ran rampant in the second quarter of the
first half, conceited a couple of early tries or some
really soft rough defense, but then broke Japan open it well,
played with real pace, skill offloading, and had it all
(03:38):
their own way. Some really second rate defending from Japan,
you know, tackling that you wouldn't expect to see in
the NPCs as a comparison.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
So some major question marks.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I think about where Japan are at in that department overall.
And then for a number of different reasons. The All
Blacks went off the boil, didn't they. Scott Robinson unloaded
the bench in the fifty first minute, sent on four
or five players, and the All Blacks became really disjointed,
and the second half fades that we've become accustomed to
this year throughout the Rugby Championship struck again.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
So it left a bit of a sense of frustration.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Bill Blacks probably could have would have should have gone
on and won that game by you know, eighty odd
points had they kept their momentum and attacking intents and
level of skill going. But it was a really frustrating
watch in the second half. But I guess for a
number of individuals they played well. But then big concerns
(04:43):
about how the introduction of the bench goes and those
sorts of things. But hard to take too much out
of that game overall, given what's to come this weekend
with England, the level of opposition and just the nature
of the team.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
It was very much a second string All Blacks team,
wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
It was a second string team And the fact I've
seemed to live in players through London early a couple
of days before that game signaled their intent and then
what they were planning to do around that, and obviously
we talked about the team name.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Last week.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
It was relatively I guess standout performance from an All
Blacks perspective for Mine Wallace a p once again. I
thought Boody Proctor was excellent. I tho Cam Regard had
a maybe a mixed game, has fifty or four minutes
of game time and this first get back and more
(05:38):
than a year. But some of those stand out there
that you know, I'm going to push for what he's
going to be in the starting side. He was thinking
this week against England, but you know Billy Proctor is
in the conversation. I think for a starting role at
some point on this tour. Again, Cam Royguard would surprise
me to become the BNK this week and start begging violent.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
But I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
There were too many other players that really hammered down
the door and said you've got to throw out your selections.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
She can pick me booking him or at the Avivan
Nex week.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
No, I tend to agree with.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I think Patrick Twopolotu lead really well carrying lineouts his
first test as All Black captain, and I was largely
impressed with Mark t Lea as well, his first start
for a long time on the left edge, but Caleb
Clark's got that position nailed down. I thought Mark to
Lea outplayed Sevie Reese, but the fact that Sevie was
(06:33):
pulled after fifty minutes and has been heavily favored on
the right wing suggests that he'll retain that role for England.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
So yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I don't think there were any other compelling performances that
said to Scott Robinson, you must pick me. Wallace a
tt was a revelation again from number eight, but you
do feel that the All Blacks are largely set on
their loose Ford trio at the moment, given those those
injuries to Luke Jacobson and Don Papali and Ethan Blackheader,
(07:07):
so I suspect they'll go Wallace teasing will go back
to six this weekend. I thought some of Penny Female
largely made an impact physically in particular, which we've been
looking for from him after not really featuring since England
and July. So maybe he comes into contention for the
bench this coming weekend in London. But yeah, I think
(07:32):
given how the lack of impact from Japan and particularly
on defense. Probably expected a bit more from some players
in that team, And I agree about cam royguard seen
his first kickout on the fall, had another one charged,
scored a late trial, was held up once, but still
probably feeling his way back in to that level of rugby.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
What about Japan before we.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Go back to the All Blacks, Elliot, they have rarely
gone backwards because two years ago they pushed the All
Blacks seven point defeat.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
I think it was in Tokyo. I think there are
only two plays.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Isn't that in this team under any Jones that's played
their Blacks last time? But does it say that the
top league, and for all you know, the extolling of
that level of rugby and the influx of foreigners and
the money around that competition, is the top league preparing
Japan for test rugby.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well it's hard to make that argument because I thought
the best player was the fullback Yazaki, who is currently
owned the university and is essentially an amateur player, hasn't
played professional rugby and is now going back to the
university to continue to study rather than play for Japan.
If I understand it, or the matches up here in
(08:52):
the Northern Hemisphere, so I thought he was the best player,
and he hasn't played top league. So look, I think
there are a few things that Michael Leak injured that
glorious team from twenty fifteen and a lot of players
stuck around to twenty nineteen, but perhaps a generation or
(09:13):
a few years to really until they see the fruits
of those players, and you know, Japanese schoolboys ken whatever
that were inspired by that twenty fifteen and twenty nineteen
performance to be rising through the ranks and playing teith rugby.
So I think there's a little bit of growing pains
for japan there, And also think, you know, two years
(09:35):
ago in the performance, they're being coached by a better
coach and all want to see there in Jammie Joseph
than Eddie Jones. So I don't know that any Jones
is the right coach to lead the team forward. There
were certainly fine that are going backward that last year's
World Cup, still under Jamie Joseph, but I think, yeah,
until they get some of this generation that comes through
(09:56):
from the twenty fifteen twenty nineteen those young kids are
inspired by that, I think it could be a tricky
old period to Japan over the next two years.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
Yeah, I agree, and I think while the top league is.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
A a very desirable destination for foreigners, it's clearly one
of the highest paid leagues in the world for the
top rugby players out there, it's not necessarily developing Japanese
rugby because, like you say, some of these players are
a long way off where they need to be and
(10:29):
Anitie Jones has a lot of work with that team.
Just going back to the All Blacks, one player we
didn't touch on was Damien McKenzie, and I guess this
was a bit of a chance for him to roam
free and players natural game after being benched for the
final Rugby Championship game with Boden Barrett taking.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
That starting jersey.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
And for me earlier I thought it was a largely
underwhelming performance from McKenzie. He made a couple of try
saving tackles and there were a couple of assists in there,
but there were a lot of errors, a lot of
wayward kicking, and it wasn't the performance for me that
that he needed to say, I'm going to stand my
(11:12):
authority here and we gain this ten jersey. So I
think if we weren't sure that Boden was going back
to ten and McKenzie probably to the bench for England.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
I think we probably are now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I say so. Look he was I thought underwhelming is
the right word that you used the one tactle went
out in the full when all Blacks were in the
second half scenario where they hadn't seen a lot of
ball and depend things more willing to just attack and
hold onto the ball rather than be forced into making
tackles against All Black. They got the ball back on
one occasion and we're playing on counter attack and picked
(11:47):
the ball out in the full. It was just not
the kind of performing the Damien McKenzie needed trying stampers
authority and so I want that.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
In Jersey for this end if he had to it.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
The interesting thing is whether they now go Boden Barrett
you can start all three of the big death matches
with which respected at leat at the end, or whether
they do of mckin the practice Charmigast France. That's going
to be intriguing over the next three while. But I
did think that Damien McKinley just think quite have the
performance that he would be after against Japan. I guess
(12:22):
and if we look so we've sort of touched on
it already, but buy and lies this team to play
England the early Friday and wanting to do time kind
of picked itself, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
I think it does.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Yeah, you've got those eleven guys, like you say, who
went up to London early. That the front row that
they've used all year, barring Ethan the Groet's injury, so
he'll come back in Scott Barrick and to provide in
the second row.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I think they'll go Sam Kine at seven.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Wallace, I think they'll go him back to six, although
I would personally like to see him stay at number eight.
So I think that that loos for trailer will remain
in tech Courtez Ratima at half back, Boding at ten
and Jordie I guess is the only real question around
his knee injury. But if he's fit, you'd suspect he
(13:11):
comes back into the midfield. Sevu I think takes the
right wing, Will Jordan at fallback, Caleb Clarke on the left.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
So the bench is a wee bit contestable. Can Roygart
and t J.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Pedonara and Summer Penny you would think comes on as
the loose Ford cover. Given that the injury is there,
where do you see that the most contestable areas.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I really don't see too many contestable areas, so you
appy much no there. I think perhaps that the right
wing berth is the most contestable one. I think mat
of it, it was by and large pretty good to a
couple of defensive slips. They've had one good, really good
spot tackle that I recall in that game. I would
go much to later on the right wing over every reason.
I'm just not sure whether Scott Robertson will do that.
(13:59):
Robertson told me at the airports in Tokyo Sunday morning
that Jordy Barron's fit ready to go, so on the
basis of that, I think it's too many selection issues
around that. I guess they'll rotate the props over the
next three weeks. Potentially in one of these games we
might see to Mighty Williams and passibly OOTI.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
But again, but I think now they'll have to come
off the bench.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
So I don't think there's too many selection quandaries really
for Scott Robertson. I think it's fairly straightforward, and I
guess this is the game.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's an interesting one, isn't it, Liam?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Because England haven't played some that Eden Park chest and
back in July. The All Blacks have played plenty since then.
Scott Robinson said, The've grown a lot since then. They've
I've learned a lot more about the game, planned the
way they want to play. So they need to put
that in practice Saturday afternoon here in London.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Well that makes a fascinating backdrop, doesn't it. The All
Blacks saying they they've evolved. I've changed, They've grown, They've learned,
and I think they have. They've had two tests against
the World champions spring Box in South Africa and while
they lost those, they'll take a lot from that.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Leo McDonald was running the attack back in July.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
He's not I think the All Blacks attack has evolved quite.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Significantly since then.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Scott Hansen's taken that on board and there's been a
real drive I think to play a bit freer rather
than being quite so structured. And England's like you said,
they haven't played since then, but they too have had
massive changes. They've lost Felix Jones, who was such a
key part of their success in July.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
While they lost those two games.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
They put the All Blacks under massive pressure with their
blitz rush defense and with him going, how does that
affect that element of their game. Marrow ToJ was a
massive presence, put the All Blacks under big heat at
the line out and the breakdown, so he'll be a
big factor.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
But also Henry Slade's he said, shoulder surgery.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
The English midfielder only had one game back at the
weekend and he's basically the folk room of that rush
defensive print pressure in the in the English midfield, so
interesting to see whether they pick him after fifty odd
minutes of rugby since July. England also don't have Alex Mitchell,
who was very dynamic from half back.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
He's injured, so some big changes for England.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
They lost their strength and conditioning coach to Ireland as well,
so not sure how much that would affect them, but
I think Felix Jones.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Is a massive loss.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Interestingly, also Elliott, this is only England's i think, their
third game from their last sixteen tests at Twickenham, so
they'll be very very keen to make an impression and
send a bit of a statement back at home.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
They certainly will be on always a special occasion when
the All Blacks come to town in England host them
at Wickham. So looking forward to that live commentary for
Sunday morning on youtabk z MBI gold my Heart Radio
can follow the live log on Indian herold Co in
Zen and all the reaction from Liam. Well there let's
wrap up the NPC final, Liam, when the Wellington lines
(17:16):
over by one hundred minutes to get there, but they did.
I'll be honest if I think been the highlights of
it followed along on golds Tall commentary over the course
of the weekends on Saturday in Japan. But look at
you know, I think when any final goes to ext
retirement to represent that those two teams are the best
(17:39):
in the competition and Wellington just managed to get there
those in front of the green.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
It was a very fitting final.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Elliott typical day and Wellington gal for force wins and
heavy rain. But despite those difficult conditions, the skill level,
the intent was certainly there and and you're right, these
were the two best teams in the competition this season
and they went back and forth. Wellington dominated the first
(18:08):
plenty came back in the second to again the leads.
Wellington scored a late try but couldn't nail the conversion
and then got like penalty Callum Harken about a forty
odd meter penalty and Wellington managed to cling on, but
it was it was a dramatic climac, a lot of
lot of passion around and I think a very special
(18:31):
triumph for Wellington given Connor Garden Baship's passing four months ago,
his brother Jackson playing his hundredth game in the final,
and some very you know, deep connections throughout that team
to Connor, so a lot of emotion around that for Wellington.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
But what a season from Bayer plenty as well.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
That was their first final, first top flight provincial final,
they won the inaugural NPC forty five years ago and
this was a really compelling season in the way they
played and some very senior leaders within the team. So
a great final, great triumph for Wellington. But it has
(19:13):
been a magnificent MPC season that's really put provincial rugby
back on the map.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It has indeed year I want to get stuck into
that in the final four shortly as well the next
one in PC season and.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Hopefully that is the benchmark.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Now for the NBC going forward, time out of quick back,
quick break on Rugby Direct and we'll back with the
second half after this.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Every try, try and sixty six, every tackle tackles, get
up again.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
Before it's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
You are backwards Rugby Direct on our for final four
four Rugby topics that Leam I gets stuck into. You've
got Rugby out thing that livin George the form of Wallaby.
Australian Britt Robinson to be the World Rugby Tier goes
to a vote in November the fourteenth. He is up
against the Frenchman ad del Latif Fnanzi and the Italian
(20:21):
Andre Renaldo. Look I guess Liam Mark Robinson later in
the podcast going to elaborate on those reasons as to
why they're supporting Britt Robinson. Not a huge surprise given
the twan thousand and five and then no, I'm quite
well Britt Robinson. But they've laid the cards on the table.
It's going to be fascinated to see how the threat
(20:41):
plays out of the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
It is indeed all let because you know World Rugby
is a very political beast we have seen in previous.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
Times.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
The World Cup was supposed to go to South Africa
and then it went to France. Augustine pi show went
very close a couple of I think it was the
last World Rugby chairman election, and some late brown paper
bags or phone calls swayed a couple of the island
nations to vote for Bill Beaumont's to do a second term.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
So I think you're right.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
No great surprise that Miss Zellan's endorsed Brett Robertson, but
it is interesting because he's the favorite now with John
Jeffries pulling out a basically throwing a big tantrum after
Scotland weren't going to support their man, so that really
reshuffled the pack and laid the backdrop for this vote.
(21:42):
Fifty two votes cast by secret ballot on November fourteen.
You'll be floating around the traps there, So interesting to
see how that plays out. And the Southern Hemisphere have
never had a World Rugby Chairman Elliott in the history.
So has the world game moved on from those divisions
(22:03):
or are they still entrenched. How much of a fact
did you think that will be in this vote.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I think highly highly effect.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
They just need to look into any commentary on the
twenty minute retard and it just splits down Northern Hemisphere
Southern Hemisphere divide, So I think big time. But I
do think it's going to be interesting to see with
the Benazi and Ronaldo how they can manage to garner
the vote.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Do you think Six Nations is going to be quite
important to them?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Or England's already backed for at Robinson, so you know
then it's going to be split. They're going to have
to try and run the table around some of those
other Six Nations countries. I'm not sure that they'll be
able to do entirely, so they may split the vote.
It may need to be one of those is dropping
out if that block is going to get through. So
I don't think that it's three candidates at the moment.
(22:53):
Is going to be to see where there's on the
ballot day and whether they can win the electoral college. Certainly,
I think it's election happening in November, So looking forward
to that unfolding, I think I would say the sad
and a couple of hours ago before recording Mark Robinson's
going our freedom at the Times of London and an
(23:13):
interview there as well. They're open minded to the all
blacks playing in the Middle East. I guess where your
reaction to that is that it's not really a surprise.
We asked Mark Robinson the same question, if I recall,
and we spoke to him earlier in the year in
our first interview with him around it, and they were
open minded there as well. But you see the day
with the all Blacks said in the Middle East, and
(23:35):
what would your reaction be to that?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I think it's a matter of time, Elliott.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
If you look around the world at most global sports, tennis,
Formula one, boxing, cricket, there's an infinite number of example
sevens has already been there, and we only have to
look at the Nation's Championship conversation around guitar and their bids.
(24:00):
I think it's a matter of time before that event
and some capacity, whether it be the final or some
weekend on matches ends up there.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
And New Zealand Rugby are very.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Transparent, aren't they about chasing money at the moment going
to Japan. I think they'll go to potentially the States
next year, taking all black matches off shore. To try
and maximize the revenue at least once or twice a season.
So I think it is inevitable, and I think there
will be an inevitable backlash whenever that happens, because of
(24:39):
depending on where they go, because some Middle Eastern states
are more progressive than others, but some of them certainly
have some some elements of their culture that don't sit
well with you know, where we live in terms of
how they treat women and human rights issues. So I
(25:02):
think if, when, if, when that day does come, New
Zealand rugby will have to a bit of criticism and
face up to the fact that there are some uncomfortable
truths in some of those nations as well.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Absolutely, I think the battle against sports washing has been lost.
It's over, it's been dumb, it's been over a flat
some time, and it's for me. It's not ca'se a
Rugby being left behind necessarily, but I just don't see
the value in rugby really making moral stands. Almost feels
(25:39):
like if you can't beat them and join them scenario.
Ever else is getting on board it Feldhill for rugby
there would be major issue. Daddi Arabia for example, you
know the black Beriens certainly ain't going to go play
in Daudi Arabia. You wouldn't have thought, and they played
golf and lyddy Cos played in Daddi Arabia before. But
I suspect that the black Beans won't be getting there
(26:01):
anytime soon. But I just feel that the battles kind
of been lost. And we can harp on about sports washing,
but the reality of toward it like the way that
things have gone, and that might sound pessimistic, but and go, well,
what's the point in anything? But to me it feels
like the indevidsibility and it will happen at some point,
doesn't step in the next decade. Talking number three, let's
(26:24):
circle back to the NPC. As you said a few
I think can you figure on why and how do
you think that will affect the end our path where
review is due to land and you to be communicated
to the province of any day.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Now, I think first and foremost, the on field product
has been exceptional, and that's due to rule changes. Progressive
rule changes around designed to speed up the game, whether
it be shot clocks of scrums and lineouts and the
ball at the base of the ruck, conversions just the
(26:59):
general intent to minimize stoppages, play the game at pace,
and I think your real willingness to embrace attacking intent
from coaches and players. The quality of the competition, the
competitiveness across the boards, it really has been a revelation
this year. And I think also a factor in that
(27:19):
has been the realization of the context of this competition
and where it sets of fans.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
And the need to go back to smaller venues.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
You look at Plenty success and going to the Totonga
domain selling that out a couple of times this year,
even Wellington trying to go to potidor Auckland going to
Auckland Grammar. I think the Stags had you know, seven
odd thousand that's Stag Day and their local rivalry with Otago.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
So but those local rivalries are real.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
They're basically the lifeblood, aren't they the of the competition
and the Heartland Championship as well.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
I think the final of that between teams Valley and
was a mid canry.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Had you know, six odd thousand supporters in a town
of five thousand people. So right throughout the levels of
rugby fans of flocking back and I think crowds and
viewership we're both up this year, so really positive signs.
In terms of the Pathway review, I don't see it
having a major impact and I think that will create
(28:24):
a bit of a backlash. I think there is a
need to streamline some of the duplication with academies that
we've got throughout New Zealand, but.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
There's all sorts of spin offs that come with that.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Do you want all New Zealand Rugby's talent congregating in
the big city centers in the Super Rugby bases? How
does that affect the grassroots game and the provincial sensors.
So every decision has unintended consequences, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
So Super Raby wants one thing, the.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Province is one another, and it's not an easy thing
to sort out.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
No, it's not, And I'm not sure it would have
picked the Pathways review at all.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I think I mean too late for that, But I
think there are definitely some streamlining that could be happening
in some of the academy is not saying all they should.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Be funneled into Super Rugby Academy, but there.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Could be some further steps there around that that you
know could be taken away and put into streamline focus
rather than the sort of two step approach that is
there at the moment. So I think they can that
can certainly be tweaked, but I don't think there's too
much else that'll be taken out of this year's NBC.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
On that topic, then what does the perfect NBC format
look like? The here have we got it at the moment?
Speaker 5 (29:48):
I think we do.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I think going back to one division has been a success.
Everyone playing everyone and the competitiveness largely across the board.
I think, you know, man or two struggled a bit
this year, but they were still reasonably competitive by plenty
of making the final for the first time, Auckland having
a poor season and being tipped up, you know, Canterbury
(30:12):
struggling early and coming back late. That there was just
the competitiveness across the board I think sets the benchmark
for any competition. You want to turn up each week,
each game and not know who's going to win.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
So I think the just the distribution of talents.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
I think provinces are largely working out that that they
need to go local and bring in, you know, promote
from within. We've seen a bit of an influx of
Australian talent. Tane Edmund was a real success for North
Harbor and there were a couple of other examples as well,
so I think certainly in some hemisphere capacity that competition
(30:55):
is envy of Australia that love the equivalent. Obviously South
Africa is the Curry Cup, which is a great breeding
gap ground for them. But I think the format worked
really well this year, and I think the n PC
is as remains a really critical pathway to promote, you know,
the next generation of New Zealand talent.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I do think this possibility could bend off a couple
of teams from the First Division or the MBC and
then go into a promotion relegation scenario.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
I can remember the.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
A Young Slash old enough to remember teenh Country and
the Top Light in the mid nineteen nineties. I'd love
to get promotion relegation put of back in it and
go back to say a ten team First Division then
split off around that.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
I don't know that it will ever happen, but I
would love to see promotion relegation back in the mix.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Central Viking xerition.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, look, I think there is at a time the
drums are beating. It didn't work first time around, but
any good ideas that we're explored for the second time
and those orange and blue jerseys were you know, something
to behold. So if we can see that back then
I think it's happy days ahead. Hey, let's move on
there to my chat with Mark Robinson. Sat down with
(32:14):
them at a cafe in Kensington Euly Gert today Monday
here in London about a whole range of rugby issue
including their endorsement of Robinson as the World Rugby Chair
head of that boat next month.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Let's take a listening to that.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Ended up Chief executive Mark Robinson. Good to be sitting
it's a rainy or day in London, but be good
to catch up in Kensington and.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
A test week in London's always prettypecial, isn't it.
Speaker 7 (32:41):
Yeah, it's pretty cool to be back in this part
of the world, isn't it. There's definitely a lot of
hype around the whole autumn series which has built up
these amazing fixtures. I guess we're a little bit ahead
of the rest of them with this game just outside
the Red nine window, but there's a huge amount of
excitement building. Feels like a lot of hype from expect Kiwis,
(33:02):
and we know the English are certainly wanting to know
in their own lines, right what happened in July with
a couple of close games there, So you got to
be a big.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Week It's been a big weekend as well. Japan, let's
start there. It's an important market to the New Zealand rugby.
What do you get out of these test matches I
suppose going up to Japan playing the All Blacks, but
also when the Maldi All Blacks go up All Black
swifteen what are the vital things you get out of
these Japane trips.
Speaker 7 (33:25):
Well, the basis for the memory of understanding we signed
at the start last year was to make sure we
had more regular contact in that market. So historically we'd
gone out once in every four or five years look
to have a sort of strong commercial outcome from a
one off event, but it wasn't really allowing us to
(33:46):
build good partnerships and long term connections with the fans.
So as I'm sure people will see over the last
two years, we've been up there a lot in July
and October and even with Super Rugby preseason games last year,
so all of that just builds more continuity, more relationships
with existing partners where we have quite a on portfolio
(34:09):
of commercial partners now and prospects as well as the fans.
And you know, I think you would have seen through
the week just the way the Japanese fans are connecting
with our teams is fantastic.
Speaker 8 (34:18):
So look, it's it's been a really.
Speaker 7 (34:20):
Really successful first sort of eighty months to two years
in this and certainly the weekend and the week of
the match allowed us to build on that with.
Speaker 8 (34:31):
Any at a welcoming event.
Speaker 7 (34:32):
We had a whole range of meetings with existing partners,
new prospects as well as Jay are a few about
not only our EMOU but works such as the Nation's
Cup and things that are happening at World Rugby as well.
Speaker 8 (34:45):
So or in all a really productive time.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
While that was happening with just before combination of a
big NPC season at which it seemed that interest levels
had increased, I guess it was as pretty ange and
bad plenty.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
There was some upsets along the way. What do you
make of the.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
NBC season and the context of I guess we're news
on rugby season at the moment.
Speaker 7 (35:03):
Well, we've always been massive supporters of the competition, but
we've also been really clear that, you know, we need
to make it work, like a lot of things in rugby,
within a financial envelope. So yeah, all the great things
we've seen in the competition over the years, the history,
the connection to community, the provincial rivalries, and the emerging
talent and the great stories of an unearthing.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Future stars were all there to see.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
But as you say, some really nice sort of competitive
tension around uncertainty of results, which she helped give the competition
a lot of new impetus, I guess, especially since the
start in the middle stage, it felt like there was
lots of things happening every weekend, there were sort of
you know, some upset results, which was fantastic, and then
into the playoffs we saw some really high quality rugby.
(35:48):
I think from what we've seen, certainly the attendances and
the social media footprint's been really really.
Speaker 8 (35:56):
Positive, and I think the style.
Speaker 7 (35:59):
Of rugby built on what we saw in Super Rugby Pacific,
where again we had record viewership and social media footprint
and just a whole lot of positives entiment around the
laws we've been leading globally, I guess, and the shape
of the game and just how expensive and and sort
of free flowing the games have been so overalllready positive.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Where does that lean into with the pathways work that
is ongoing around the game in New Zealand. Does the
NPC that we've just seen help provide some data around
where this competition needs to go?
Speaker 8 (36:32):
Yeah, I mean that works. I think has been really clear.
Speaker 7 (36:35):
It's coming to a close now and we're going out
to share that with stakeholders in the.
Speaker 8 (36:38):
Next week or two.
Speaker 7 (36:43):
I mean it does validate, you know, the importance of
the competition. But as I say, we've always recognized it's
got an important place in New Zealand right be. It's
just how we make that fit within all the other
pathways and competitions we're doing. And so we're looking forward
to sitting down showing an update of the reports in
the near future, and then sitting down in December with
(37:04):
all the stakeholders again and mapping out a work plan
for twenty twenty five to how we work through this
sort of this reset work that we're looking to from
the end of twenty five Star to twenty six, where
we hope to put everything together and come up with
a more financially sustainable model.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
I can't say too much, but is it a dramatic
reset you're looking at at this point in time?
Speaker 7 (37:22):
Oh, look at this is really good for the work
to go and get in front of the stakeholders first
and foremost, and we want to be able to share
it with them. They are independent reports, so you know
we're not going to be saying too much more about
them other than just sharing initially and gaining some initial
feedback and views and providing some clarifications to question. So
that's what the next steps about. Would be unfair to
(37:43):
talk about it any more than that.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
The stage's been a couple of weeks coming up for
rugby or Wild's context. As this podcast goes up, you've
just announced the NZR is backing Brett Robinson, the Australian
for World Rugby chare ahead of the other two candidates.
Speaker 6 (37:56):
Why Brett Robinson? Why is either the News on Rugby choice?
Speaker 7 (37:59):
Well, I guess we've been considering this decision now for
the last two to three months, and certainly our start
point wasn't to focus on personalities or Northern Hemisphere, Southern
Hemisphere or anything like that. It was really about looking
at what we think the future of the game needs
now and establishing a set of criteria to match that,
(38:20):
to consider the candidates against and for us.
Speaker 8 (38:24):
You know, some of the things that came through as
we thought were important were, you.
Speaker 7 (38:29):
Know, someone with a clear vision for the game, that
was progressive, that recognizes games got to evolve.
Speaker 8 (38:36):
In different areas on and off the field.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
Someone that was deeply connected to and passionate about the game,
but had also worked in environments that were large and
complex and multi dimensional in terms of stakeholder demands and
that sort of thing. So when you weigh all of
that up and you think about issues such as as
player welfare, where you know, Brett's worked in this space
(39:02):
as a medical doctor and being involved in high performance sport,
you know he understands the chill into the sport in
that Australian market. There are clearly, you know, some some
rival codes which are focusing on you know, how they
connect in terms of the entertainment space with with fans.
So he brings a unique lens there. I think he
(39:22):
understands the emerging market space really well in terms of
the opportunities because the proximity of Australia in the United
States and Japan. So there are a range of different
things where we think he against.
Speaker 8 (39:36):
That criteria were established.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Was a preferred candidate, did you We presented to by
Benazzi of France, RONALDA.
Speaker 6 (39:42):
Vetaly did Bendiji on Ragy here From those two.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
We've had conversations with them through the last little while,
you know, and I think when we look at again
where we see the future of the game, we think
that that, Yeah, Brett's it's just a strong candidate.
Speaker 8 (40:04):
For all the reasons I talked about before.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I feel confident you could work with one of those
two if they did get the numb is in a
couple of weeks time.
Speaker 8 (40:09):
Oh look, I'm sure you know.
Speaker 7 (40:11):
It's like any of these situations that democratic process is.
No one's sure about how things will play out. But
I'm sure you just you have to get on and
make things work. In New Zealand would put its best
foot forward to make sure that it's considered in the
setup of any new board in any new working structure
(40:33):
across world.
Speaker 6 (40:33):
Rugby in a couple of weeks time.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
The vote as well on the twenty minute red card
Global trial going aheads. It's obviously in the Automnations series,
but one of the candidates, Benazzi France, was saying that
he doesn't it's on his mandate that he doesn't agree
with it. Where do you think that is at in
terms of a world rugby context and will this twenty
minute red card, which New Zealand Rugby has been quite
(40:56):
at the forefront of go ahead in terms of a
global trial.
Speaker 8 (41:00):
Well, I we'd like to think.
Speaker 7 (41:01):
So it's I mean, it's really positive development that we're
playing the trial over the next few weeks. Six nations
have signed that off. It seems clear that you know,
every nation apart from France are supportive of it, even
though you know Ireland sort of signaled some concern with
the previosideration of the of the proposal. The current proposal
(41:25):
lands well with them as well. So, look, this is
a proposal that's been play now for over five years.
It's been through an awful lot of competitions and trials
and research and been fed into different forums, and we
think it's just a common sense next step for the
(41:46):
game that balances all the right things in terms of
player welfare demands which are critically important, as well as
balancing the needs of the fans to have a contest
which is not lost because of being ruined by a
red card, and the game has changed so much in
terms of the way red card tore rewarded.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Now.
Speaker 7 (42:06):
Historically they were about it deliberate sort of foul play.
Now they obviously can be issued for incidents which are
more accidental by nature at times and very subjective at
times as well, and their incident rate has increased. So,
you know, it just makes perfect sense for us because
of the combination of the fan experience, looking after teams
(42:28):
interests and play welfare that this has continue to be
worked upon and we're only you know, when you think back,
we're the only probably contact sport in the world where
we create this sort of mismatch in our in our sport,
and when you're talking about premium events around things like
World Cups, Rugby Championships, Six Nations Nations Cup in the future,
we think we've got to move with the times.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Do you think there's a bit of confusion around it,
that the fact that a full red card in theory
does still exist for fuggish behavior, and maybe that there's
a bit of confusion from some of those countries that
oppose it, that you can replace a player they don't
come back on after twenty minutes, maybe.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
An orange card or some sort of brand.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
From a branding perspective, it maybe needs to be sort
of slightly to eat possibly.
Speaker 8 (43:10):
I mean, you raise a fair question.
Speaker 7 (43:12):
I mean, we've been really concerned that some countries who
have registered their concern with it and not agreed with
it haven't fully understood the proposal in previous forums. So
we're certainly hoping that that's not the case when people
come to vote on this. But you're right that safeguard
around deliberate foul play that we hardly ever see, you know,
(43:35):
in the game at all nowadays, is still covered for.
And then, as we say, the more newer development of
incidents around possibly things that are more accidental by nature
can be covered with more fairly with a twenty minute situation.
So look, yes, I think it's been an issue for
us that it hasn't been well understood or well researched
(43:56):
enough by others. But I think hopefully we're getting to
a situation now where by the vast majority of countries
are supportive.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
The South African Tours story is ticked along throughout the
course of maybe about a year or so. Now it's
you know, when the deal Blacks were there, it sounded
like it was not far away from being announced. Still
on track for this to go ahead in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 7 (44:17):
Yeah, Look, we are making good progress as it relates
to all the emerging competitions for the twenty twenty six
media rite cycle twenty twenty six to twenty thirty Nations Cup.
We're having meetings through this next few weeks and we've
got meetings on those with all of the major nations
(44:39):
attending in Dublin a few weeks time around the same
time as the as the elections, and absolutely the South
Africa All Blacks tours are still on track, so you.
Speaker 8 (44:50):
Know, we're trying to where we can.
Speaker 7 (44:53):
I think we'll finalize these in the next and the
next few weeks. It would be great to be out
in the market with them soon after.
Speaker 8 (44:58):
So look at these things.
Speaker 7 (45:00):
As I've said several times this year, they just take
a bit of time. That some of them represent significant
changes to calendars and there's just a few things we
need to make sure we get right before signed them off.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Anyways, with the Nation's Championship and these tour concepts, it's
one of the biggest changes really since maybe Argentina came
into RAGA Championship, but if you go back probably to
the professional era when the Try Nations came in.
Speaker 7 (45:20):
Yeah, that's right. You know, when you look ahead for
this next cycle from twenty twenty six, it's probably one
of the most exciting five year periods of the game
as it rates to fans in New Zealand, and they
are major changes, you know.
Speaker 8 (45:36):
I haven't.
Speaker 7 (45:38):
The feedback largely around the South Africa All Blacks model
seems really positive.
Speaker 8 (45:42):
We've got two Lines tours.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
I met with the Lines this morning here in London
and the women's and mens to both huge amount of
excitement building the air and we'll continue we'll probably pick
up speed on the work programs around the twenty twenty
nine Men's tour.
Speaker 8 (45:58):
In the early part of next year.
Speaker 7 (45:59):
We've got the Global Club Competition which is being worked
on as well Nations Cup. As you say, so, look,
I just think it's remarkable time for fans in New
Zealer to get excited about world class rugby coming into.
Speaker 8 (46:13):
Our shores in the next sort of while.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
And yeah, we do need to make sure we get
all of the preparation for that being on if we can.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Black fernds this year, but up but down. We're in
London at the moment, which is going to be the
side of the World Cup final in just under a
year's time. I guess where do you see the black
ferns and where they're at? After a couple of losses
to England who are in an imperious form at the
moment and Ireland was a surprise loss, where do you
see there out of year at from the World Cup?
Speaker 8 (46:39):
Well, look, I think I was here back in September.
Speaker 7 (46:44):
I think it was when we played England at Twickenham,
and I think people would all recognize we made some
really strong progress leading into that game and played really
well for long periods, so the direction of travel.
Speaker 8 (46:57):
Then we were really positive about.
Speaker 7 (46:59):
Clearly the Irish game was a bit of a setback
and Ellen and the team have sort of registered their
disappointment with that, and then we saw them come back
and I thought played really well against France again. So
obviously we'd all like to see more consistency as and
I think we're always disappointed when in any team in
black losers, but I think overall probably take stock of things,
(47:22):
get everyrun home and go through a really good thorough
review and find out how we can wrap all the
possible support around the team leading into Super Rugby opicking
next year. We've got you know, a good amount of
Test matches leading into the World Cup and just set
the team up for all the possible success we can with,
(47:42):
you know, if we need more resourcing or if we
need more competitions or fixtures, sorry, then that'll be the
things we sort of decide at the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Probably I haven't touched on the All Blacks, but a
big obviously three weeks coming up or four weeks coming
up in Europe for the side, I guess on the
back of that Japan results and Scott Robertson's first year,
your assessment of sort of where the All Blacks sit
on the cusp of these big tests coming up.
Speaker 7 (48:06):
Yeah, I mean overall we're we're reasonably positive. We think
the direction of travel overall has been clear for people
to see that, you know, always disappointing to lose, and
again Scott and the team clearly, you know, felt frustrating
those losses earlier in the in the in the campaign,
in the test season, but they really fine margins around
(48:28):
the international game, and we saw that especially in South Africa.
Exciting to see the emergence of such great young talent
coming through and seeing opportunities provided for some of those players.
I think a large season like this, even though it's
hugely challenging, has provided that basis for a new group
to come together and develop some cohesion on and off
(48:48):
the field, and I think we just got to remember
that not only is it a new group on and
off the field, this is probably one of the toughest
schedules we've had in many years with the way the
calendar has worked out. So overall, you know, we're pretty positive.
Well again, there'll be quite an extensive review at the
end of the year having a look at all the
things and where we can developing the growth in the environment,
(49:10):
but as we sit here right now, we're reasonably positive.
Speaker 6 (49:13):
It's finished positive as well.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Community rugby figures understand up, which is it must be
incredibly welcoming for New Zealand rugby because some of those
has been challenging areas, some of those key demographics, so
to get them reversed or going the right direction must
be pretty pleasing.
Speaker 8 (49:29):
Yeah, it is. And then it's a second year in
a row. We've had.
Speaker 7 (49:33):
A good uplift in community numbers some of those key markers,
you know, teenage boys especially is often quite a strong
mark for how the community game's going.
Speaker 8 (49:42):
So to have two years.
Speaker 7 (49:44):
In a row with LYFT in those areas is really positive.
Speaker 8 (49:47):
Great year for women and girls. We've seen the continued building.
Speaker 7 (49:50):
Off Rugby World Cup a couple of years ago, which
has been fantastic, and even in senior men's club rugby
seeing growth as well. So look, we're not sitting on
our laurels at all here. We know, you know, there's
always work to be done in this area, but overall
we know we're being really progressive and challenging status quo
around formats, laws, different trials and we'll continue to do that.
(50:14):
Steve Lancaster and his team have done some great work
in this area and I think we're developing some real
momentum in this space. So look, we've got you know,
more resourcing as we've seen going into that space than
we have historically and we think it's starting to pay
dividends at the moment.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Mark Robinson, never a quiet time in rugby, is it.
Thank you very much for joining us in London and
we're shing the best of luck navigating all those meetings
over the next few weeks.
Speaker 8 (50:36):
Great to see Ali, Thanks very much, Mark.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Robinson, the on Rugby, Jeryfory appreciative of his time as
always on the podcast, and Liam, that will about do
us big tests this weekend.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
A prediction before we wrap up, before we wrap.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Up, Yes, big challenge Elliott at Twickenham.
Speaker 5 (50:54):
I think what was it last time.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
There the All Blacks collapsed to draw at the back
end of the twenty twenty two season. I'm going to
say the All Blacks win this weekend in a very
tight fixture, maybe by three five points, and I think
it would be a bit of a dark sign if
they don't. Winning at Twickenham is tough, but I think
(51:18):
England currently not where Island or France are. So if
they don't win this weekend it's real back to the
world territory for Scott Robinson. So the All Blacks to
win in a very tight contest.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
All right, So the All Blacks by five.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Thank you Liam, as always, look forward to catching up
next week from Dublin and checking it again on the podcast.
Speaker 5 (51:41):
Cheers mate, go well, that.
Speaker 8 (51:43):
Has been right.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
We direct with four Cliff Solutions, lifting you and your
business to a high and level of Thanks is always
for laughing bys English and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Yet inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliot Smith, powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome into Rugby Direct to the podcast in just a second,
But just want to apologize for some of the audigo
issues in this week's podcast. The perils of doing it
over Internet and separate hemispheres sounds like I am underwater
here in London and while it was gray and rainy
here in London today, I'm going to assure you I
(00:47):
did it above ground. So apologies for the internet issues.
Hopefully you enjoy the podcast None of the Least plenty
on it today and including into with Mark Robinson, New
Zealand Rugby Chief Executive, so hopefully you can enjoy doun
the Least. Apologies again for the audigo issues, but on
with the pod.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Welcome into Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Talor By foot Solutions lifting you and your business to
a higher level. We've seen off Yokohama and Tokyo and
we've moved through London for a pleasure to be over there.
Over here, Elligant Fifth and Liam Apier big episode of
Rugby Direct coming up for an interview with Mark Robinson,
New Zealand Rugby Chief Executive.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
So I hope you'll.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Stick around for that, both with them a few hours
ago around a number of New Zealand rugby issues, including
the decision to endorse Print Robinson as World Rugby Chair.
I still will have that at the end of the
podcast to David Liam welcome and look, the Wellington Lyons
are at top of the pops in the NPC there.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Indeed, Elliott, big week for yourself and Rugby Directs. But
I do have an apology to make first up, because
I've been touting the fact that the lines are going
to go back to back all year and clearly how
I have offended out tuner lucky Brethren because of course
they won the MPC last year and we happened to
(02:14):
largely miss that competition being in France for the World Cup.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
But two titles in three years.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Very pleased to welcome you aboard the Lions train, so
congratulations to you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Very happy, Yeah, delighted, delighted to win for season and charge.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
That's the kind of.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Expect that I bring as a hand a Crusader fan.
So you are very very welcome to that an ancient fan.
Let's get into the MPCs shortly, but first and foremost
ill Black against Japan. This is a weird old game,
and your respects. I thought Bill Blacks at one point
(02:55):
looked like it'd score every time they got the ball
and hands and others. The defense was lacking the mats
and sloppy eerrors. It's a really really hard game to
try and provide any sort of analysis on, but we
will attempt to.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
What did you make it that perm.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Yeah, it was a bit all over the show, wasn't it?
Like you say?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
The All Blacks cracked the fifty points after forty four minutes,
and they ran rampant in the second quarter of the
first half, conceited a couple of early tries or some
really soft rough defense, but then broke Japan open it well,
played with real pace, skill offloading, and had it all
(03:38):
their own way. Some really second rate defending from Japan,
you know, tackling that you wouldn't expect to see in
the NPCs as a comparison.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
So some major question marks.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I think about where Japan are at in that department overall.
And then for a number of different reasons. The All
Blacks went off the boil, didn't they. Scott Robinson unloaded
the bench in the fifty first minute, sent on four
or five players, and the All Blacks became really disjointed,
and the second half fades that we've become accustomed to
this year throughout the Rugby Championship struck again.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
So it left a bit of a sense of frustration.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Bill Blacks probably could have would have should have gone
on and won that game by you know, eighty odd
points had they kept their momentum and attacking intents and
level of skill going. But it was a really frustrating
watch in the second half. But I guess for a
number of individuals they played well. But then big concerns
(04:43):
about how the introduction of the bench goes and those
sorts of things. But hard to take too much out
of that game overall, given what's to come this weekend
with England, the level of opposition and just the nature
of the team.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
It was very much a second string All Blacks team,
wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
It was a second string team And the fact I've
seemed to live in players through London early a couple
of days before that game signaled their intent and then
what they were planning to do around that, and obviously
we talked about the team name.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Last week.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
It was relatively I guess standout performance from an All
Blacks perspective for Mine Wallace a p once again. I
thought Boody Proctor was excellent. I tho Cam Regard had
a maybe a mixed game, has fifty or four minutes
of game time and this first get back and more
(05:38):
than a year. But some of those stand out there
that you know, I'm going to push for what he's
going to be in the starting side. He was thinking
this week against England, but you know Billy Proctor is
in the conversation. I think for a starting role at
some point on this tour. Again, Cam Royguard would surprise
me to become the BNK this week and start begging violent.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
But I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
There were too many other players that really hammered down
the door and said you've got to throw out your selections.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
She can pick me booking him or at the Avivan
Nex week.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
No, I tend to agree with.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I think Patrick Twopolotu lead really well carrying lineouts his
first test as All Black captain, and I was largely
impressed with Mark t Lea as well, his first start
for a long time on the left edge, but Caleb
Clark's got that position nailed down. I thought Mark to
Lea outplayed Sevie Reese, but the fact that Sevie was
(06:33):
pulled after fifty minutes and has been heavily favored on
the right wing suggests that he'll retain that role for England.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
So yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I don't think there were any other compelling performances that
said to Scott Robinson, you must pick me. Wallace a
tt was a revelation again from number eight, but you
do feel that the All Blacks are largely set on
their loose Ford trio at the moment, given those those
injuries to Luke Jacobson and Don Papali and Ethan Blackheader,
(07:07):
so I suspect they'll go Wallace teasing will go back
to six this weekend. I thought some of Penny Female
largely made an impact physically in particular, which we've been
looking for from him after not really featuring since England
and July. So maybe he comes into contention for the
bench this coming weekend in London. But yeah, I think
(07:32):
given how the lack of impact from Japan and particularly
on defense. Probably expected a bit more from some players
in that team, And I agree about cam royguard seen
his first kickout on the fall, had another one charged,
scored a late trial, was held up once, but still
probably feeling his way back in to that level of rugby.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
What about Japan before we.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Go back to the All Blacks, Elliot, they have rarely
gone backwards because two years ago they pushed the All
Blacks seven point defeat.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
I think it was in Tokyo. I think there are
only two plays.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Isn't that in this team under any Jones that's played
their Blacks last time? But does it say that the
top league, and for all you know, the extolling of
that level of rugby and the influx of foreigners and
the money around that competition, is the top league preparing
Japan for test rugby.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well it's hard to make that argument because I thought
the best player was the fullback Yazaki, who is currently
owned the university and is essentially an amateur player, hasn't
played professional rugby and is now going back to the
university to continue to study rather than play for Japan.
If I understand it, or the matches up here in
(08:52):
the Northern Hemisphere, so I thought he was the best player,
and he hasn't played top league. So look, I think
there are a few things that Michael Leak injured that
glorious team from twenty fifteen and a lot of players
stuck around to twenty nineteen, but perhaps a generation or
(09:13):
a few years to really until they see the fruits
of those players, and you know, Japanese schoolboys ken whatever
that were inspired by that twenty fifteen and twenty nineteen
performance to be rising through the ranks and playing teith rugby.
So I think there's a little bit of growing pains
for japan there, And also think, you know, two years
(09:35):
ago in the performance, they're being coached by a better
coach and all want to see there in Jammie Joseph
than Eddie Jones. So I don't know that any Jones
is the right coach to lead the team forward. There
were certainly fine that are going backward that last year's
World Cup, still under Jamie Joseph, but I think, yeah,
until they get some of this generation that comes through
(09:56):
from the twenty fifteen twenty nineteen those young kids are
inspired by that, I think it could be a tricky
old period to Japan over the next two years.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
Yeah, I agree, and I think while the top league is.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
A a very desirable destination for foreigners, it's clearly one
of the highest paid leagues in the world for the
top rugby players out there, it's not necessarily developing Japanese
rugby because, like you say, some of these players are
a long way off where they need to be and
(10:29):
Anitie Jones has a lot of work with that team.
Just going back to the All Blacks, one player we
didn't touch on was Damien McKenzie, and I guess this
was a bit of a chance for him to roam
free and players natural game after being benched for the
final Rugby Championship game with Boden Barrett taking.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
That starting jersey.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
And for me earlier I thought it was a largely
underwhelming performance from McKenzie. He made a couple of try
saving tackles and there were a couple of assists in there,
but there were a lot of errors, a lot of
wayward kicking, and it wasn't the performance for me that
that he needed to say, I'm going to stand my
(11:12):
authority here and we gain this ten jersey. So I
think if we weren't sure that Boden was going back
to ten and McKenzie probably to the bench for England.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
I think we probably are now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I say so. Look he was I thought underwhelming is
the right word that you used the one tactle went
out in the full when all Blacks were in the
second half scenario where they hadn't seen a lot of
ball and depend things more willing to just attack and
hold onto the ball rather than be forced into making
tackles against All Black. They got the ball back on
one occasion and we're playing on counter attack and picked
(11:47):
the ball out in the full. It was just not
the kind of performing the Damien McKenzie needed trying stampers
authority and so I want that.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
In Jersey for this end if he had to it.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
The interesting thing is whether they now go Boden Barrett
you can start all three of the big death matches
with which respected at leat at the end, or whether
they do of mckin the practice Charmigast France. That's going
to be intriguing over the next three while. But I
did think that Damien McKinley just think quite have the
performance that he would be after against Japan. I guess
(12:22):
and if we look so we've sort of touched on
it already, but buy and lies this team to play
England the early Friday and wanting to do time kind
of picked itself, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
I think it does.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Yeah, you've got those eleven guys, like you say, who
went up to London early. That the front row that
they've used all year, barring Ethan the Groet's injury, so
he'll come back in Scott Barrick and to provide in
the second row.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I think they'll go Sam Kine at seven.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Wallace, I think they'll go him back to six, although
I would personally like to see him stay at number eight.
So I think that that loos for trailer will remain
in tech Courtez Ratima at half back, Boding at ten
and Jordie I guess is the only real question around
his knee injury. But if he's fit, you'd suspect he
(13:11):
comes back into the midfield. Sevu I think takes the
right wing, Will Jordan at fallback, Caleb Clarke on the left.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
So the bench is a wee bit contestable. Can Roygart
and t J.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Pedonara and Summer Penny you would think comes on as
the loose Ford cover. Given that the injury is there,
where do you see that the most contestable areas.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I really don't see too many contestable areas, so you
appy much no there. I think perhaps that the right
wing berth is the most contestable one. I think mat
of it, it was by and large pretty good to a
couple of defensive slips. They've had one good, really good
spot tackle that I recall in that game. I would
go much to later on the right wing over every reason.
I'm just not sure whether Scott Robertson will do that.
(13:59):
Robertson told me at the airports in Tokyo Sunday morning
that Jordy Barron's fit ready to go, so on the
basis of that, I think it's too many selection issues
around that. I guess they'll rotate the props over the
next three weeks. Potentially in one of these games we
might see to Mighty Williams and passibly OOTI.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
But again, but I think now they'll have to come
off the bench.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
So I don't think there's too many selection quandaries really
for Scott Robertson. I think it's fairly straightforward, and I
guess this is the game.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's an interesting one, isn't it, Liam?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Because England haven't played some that Eden Park chest and
back in July. The All Blacks have played plenty since then.
Scott Robinson said, The've grown a lot since then. They've
I've learned a lot more about the game, planned the
way they want to play. So they need to put
that in practice Saturday afternoon here in London.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Well that makes a fascinating backdrop, doesn't it. The All
Blacks saying they they've evolved. I've changed, They've grown, They've learned,
and I think they have. They've had two tests against
the World champions spring Box in South Africa and while
they lost those, they'll take a lot from that.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Leo McDonald was running the attack back in July.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
He's not I think the All Blacks attack has evolved quite.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Significantly since then.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Scott Hansen's taken that on board and there's been a
real drive I think to play a bit freer rather
than being quite so structured. And England's like you said,
they haven't played since then, but they too have had
massive changes. They've lost Felix Jones, who was such a
key part of their success in July.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
While they lost those two games.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
They put the All Blacks under massive pressure with their
blitz rush defense and with him going, how does that
affect that element of their game. Marrow ToJ was a
massive presence, put the All Blacks under big heat at
the line out and the breakdown, so he'll be a
big factor.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
But also Henry Slade's he said, shoulder surgery.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
The English midfielder only had one game back at the
weekend and he's basically the folk room of that rush
defensive print pressure in the in the English midfield, so
interesting to see whether they pick him after fifty odd
minutes of rugby since July. England also don't have Alex Mitchell,
who was very dynamic from half back.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
He's injured, so some big changes for England.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
They lost their strength and conditioning coach to Ireland as well,
so not sure how much that would affect them, but
I think Felix Jones.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Is a massive loss.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Interestingly, also Elliott, this is only England's i think, their
third game from their last sixteen tests at Twickenham, so
they'll be very very keen to make an impression and
send a bit of a statement back at home.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
They certainly will be on always a special occasion when
the All Blacks come to town in England host them
at Wickham. So looking forward to that live commentary for
Sunday morning on youtabk z MBI gold my Heart Radio
can follow the live log on Indian herold Co in
Zen and all the reaction from Liam. Well there let's
wrap up the NPC final, Liam, when the Wellington lines
(17:16):
over by one hundred minutes to get there, but they did.
I'll be honest if I think been the highlights of
it followed along on golds Tall commentary over the course
of the weekends on Saturday in Japan. But look at
you know, I think when any final goes to ext
retirement to represent that those two teams are the best
(17:39):
in the competition and Wellington just managed to get there
those in front of the green.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
It was a very fitting final.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Elliott typical day and Wellington gal for force wins and
heavy rain. But despite those difficult conditions, the skill level,
the intent was certainly there and and you're right, these
were the two best teams in the competition this season
and they went back and forth. Wellington dominated the first
(18:08):
plenty came back in the second to again the leads.
Wellington scored a late try but couldn't nail the conversion
and then got like penalty Callum Harken about a forty
odd meter penalty and Wellington managed to cling on, but
it was it was a dramatic climac, a lot of
lot of passion around and I think a very special
(18:31):
triumph for Wellington given Connor Garden Baship's passing four months ago,
his brother Jackson playing his hundredth game in the final,
and some very you know, deep connections throughout that team
to Connor, so a lot of emotion around that for Wellington.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
But what a season from Bayer plenty as well.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
That was their first final, first top flight provincial final,
they won the inaugural NPC forty five years ago and
this was a really compelling season in the way they
played and some very senior leaders within the team. So
a great final, great triumph for Wellington. But it has
(19:13):
been a magnificent MPC season that's really put provincial rugby
back on the map.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It has indeed year I want to get stuck into
that in the final four shortly as well the next
one in PC season and.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Hopefully that is the benchmark.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Now for the NBC going forward, time out of quick back,
quick break on Rugby Direct and we'll back with the
second half after this.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Every try, try and sixty six, every tackle tackles, get
up again.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
Before it's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
You are backwards Rugby Direct on our for final four
four Rugby topics that Leam I gets stuck into. You've
got Rugby out thing that livin George the form of Wallaby.
Australian Britt Robinson to be the World Rugby Tier goes
to a vote in November the fourteenth. He is up
against the Frenchman ad del Latif Fnanzi and the Italian
(20:21):
Andre Renaldo. Look I guess Liam Mark Robinson later in
the podcast going to elaborate on those reasons as to
why they're supporting Britt Robinson. Not a huge surprise given
the twan thousand and five and then no, I'm quite
well Britt Robinson. But they've laid the cards on the table.
It's going to be fascinated to see how the threat
(20:41):
plays out of the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
It is indeed all let because you know World Rugby
is a very political beast we have seen in previous.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
Times.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
The World Cup was supposed to go to South Africa
and then it went to France. Augustine pi show went
very close a couple of I think it was the
last World Rugby chairman election, and some late brown paper
bags or phone calls swayed a couple of the island
nations to vote for Bill Beaumont's to do a second term.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
So I think you're right.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
No great surprise that Miss Zellan's endorsed Brett Robertson, but
it is interesting because he's the favorite now with John
Jeffries pulling out a basically throwing a big tantrum after
Scotland weren't going to support their man, so that really
reshuffled the pack and laid the backdrop for this vote.
(21:42):
Fifty two votes cast by secret ballot on November fourteen.
You'll be floating around the traps there, So interesting to
see how that plays out. And the Southern Hemisphere have
never had a World Rugby Chairman Elliott in the history.
So has the world game moved on from those divisions
(22:03):
or are they still entrenched. How much of a fact
did you think that will be in this vote.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I think highly highly effect.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
They just need to look into any commentary on the
twenty minute retard and it just splits down Northern Hemisphere
Southern Hemisphere divide, So I think big time. But I
do think it's going to be interesting to see with
the Benazi and Ronaldo how they can manage to garner
the vote.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Do you think Six Nations is going to be quite
important to them?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Or England's already backed for at Robinson, so you know
then it's going to be split. They're going to have
to try and run the table around some of those
other Six Nations countries. I'm not sure that they'll be
able to do entirely, so they may split the vote.
It may need to be one of those is dropping
out if that block is going to get through. So
I don't think that it's three candidates at the moment.
(22:53):
Is going to be to see where there's on the
ballot day and whether they can win the electoral college. Certainly,
I think it's election happening in November, So looking forward
to that unfolding, I think I would say the sad
and a couple of hours ago before recording Mark Robinson's
going our freedom at the Times of London and an
(23:13):
interview there as well. They're open minded to the all
blacks playing in the Middle East. I guess where your
reaction to that is that it's not really a surprise.
We asked Mark Robinson the same question, if I recall,
and we spoke to him earlier in the year in
our first interview with him around it, and they were
open minded there as well. But you see the day
with the all Blacks said in the Middle East, and
(23:35):
what would your reaction be to that?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I think it's a matter of time, Elliott.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
If you look around the world at most global sports, tennis,
Formula one, boxing, cricket, there's an infinite number of example
sevens has already been there, and we only have to
look at the Nation's Championship conversation around guitar and their bids.
(24:00):
I think it's a matter of time before that event
and some capacity, whether it be the final or some
weekend on matches ends up there.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
And New Zealand Rugby are very.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Transparent, aren't they about chasing money at the moment going
to Japan. I think they'll go to potentially the States
next year, taking all black matches off shore. To try
and maximize the revenue at least once or twice a season.
So I think it is inevitable, and I think there
will be an inevitable backlash whenever that happens, because of
(24:39):
depending on where they go, because some Middle Eastern states
are more progressive than others, but some of them certainly
have some some elements of their culture that don't sit
well with you know, where we live in terms of
how they treat women and human rights issues. So I
(25:02):
think if, when, if, when that day does come, New
Zealand rugby will have to a bit of criticism and
face up to the fact that there are some uncomfortable
truths in some of those nations as well.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Absolutely, I think the battle against sports washing has been lost.
It's over, it's been dumb, it's been over a flat
some time, and it's for me. It's not ca'se a
Rugby being left behind necessarily, but I just don't see
the value in rugby really making moral stands. Almost feels
(25:39):
like if you can't beat them and join them scenario.
Ever else is getting on board it Feldhill for rugby
there would be major issue. Daddi Arabia for example, you
know the black Beriens certainly ain't going to go play
in Daudi Arabia. You wouldn't have thought, and they played
golf and lyddy Cos played in Daddi Arabia before. But
I suspect that the black Beans won't be getting there
(26:01):
anytime soon. But I just feel that the battles kind
of been lost. And we can harp on about sports washing,
but the reality of toward it like the way that
things have gone, and that might sound pessimistic, but and go, well,
what's the point in anything? But to me it feels
like the indevidsibility and it will happen at some point,
doesn't step in the next decade. Talking number three, let's
(26:24):
circle back to the NPC. As you said a few
I think can you figure on why and how do
you think that will affect the end our path where
review is due to land and you to be communicated
to the province of any day.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Now, I think first and foremost, the on field product
has been exceptional, and that's due to rule changes. Progressive
rule changes around designed to speed up the game, whether
it be shot clocks of scrums and lineouts and the
ball at the base of the ruck, conversions just the
(26:59):
general intent to minimize stoppages, play the game at pace,
and I think your real willingness to embrace attacking intent
from coaches and players. The quality of the competition, the
competitiveness across the boards, it really has been a revelation
this year. And I think also a factor in that
(27:19):
has been the realization of the context of this competition
and where it sets of fans.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
And the need to go back to smaller venues.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
You look at Plenty success and going to the Totonga
domain selling that out a couple of times this year,
even Wellington trying to go to potidor Auckland going to
Auckland Grammar. I think the Stags had you know, seven
odd thousand that's Stag Day and their local rivalry with Otago.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
So but those local rivalries are real.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
They're basically the lifeblood, aren't they the of the competition
and the Heartland Championship as well.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
I think the final of that between teams Valley and
was a mid canry.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Had you know, six odd thousand supporters in a town
of five thousand people. So right throughout the levels of
rugby fans of flocking back and I think crowds and
viewership we're both up this year, so really positive signs.
In terms of the Pathway review, I don't see it
having a major impact and I think that will create
(28:24):
a bit of a backlash. I think there is a
need to streamline some of the duplication with academies that
we've got throughout New Zealand, but.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
There's all sorts of spin offs that come with that.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Do you want all New Zealand Rugby's talent congregating in
the big city centers in the Super Rugby bases? How
does that affect the grassroots game and the provincial sensors.
So every decision has unintended consequences, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
So Super Raby wants one thing, the.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Province is one another, and it's not an easy thing
to sort out.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
No, it's not, And I'm not sure it would have
picked the Pathways review at all.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I think I mean too late for that, But I
think there are definitely some streamlining that could be happening
in some of the academy is not saying all they should.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Be funneled into Super Rugby Academy, but there.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Could be some further steps there around that that you
know could be taken away and put into streamline focus
rather than the sort of two step approach that is
there at the moment. So I think they can that
can certainly be tweaked, but I don't think there's too
much else that'll be taken out of this year's NBC.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
On that topic, then what does the perfect NBC format
look like? The here have we got it at the moment?
Speaker 5 (29:48):
I think we do.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I think going back to one division has been a success.
Everyone playing everyone and the competitiveness largely across the board.
I think, you know, man or two struggled a bit
this year, but they were still reasonably competitive by plenty
of making the final for the first time, Auckland having
a poor season and being tipped up, you know, Canterbury
(30:12):
struggling early and coming back late. That there was just
the competitiveness across the board I think sets the benchmark
for any competition. You want to turn up each week,
each game and not know who's going to win.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
So I think the just the distribution of talents.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
I think provinces are largely working out that that they
need to go local and bring in, you know, promote
from within. We've seen a bit of an influx of
Australian talent. Tane Edmund was a real success for North
Harbor and there were a couple of other examples as well,
so I think certainly in some hemisphere capacity that competition
(30:55):
is envy of Australia that love the equivalent. Obviously South
Africa is the Curry Cup, which is a great breeding
gap ground for them. But I think the format worked
really well this year, and I think the n PC
is as remains a really critical pathway to promote, you know,
the next generation of New Zealand talent.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I do think this possibility could bend off a couple
of teams from the First Division or the MBC and
then go into a promotion relegation scenario.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
I can remember the.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
A Young Slash old enough to remember teenh Country and
the Top Light in the mid nineteen nineties. I'd love
to get promotion relegation put of back in it and
go back to say a ten team First Division then
split off around that.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
I don't know that it will ever happen, but I
would love to see promotion relegation back in the mix.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Central Viking xerition.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, look, I think there is at a time the
drums are beating. It didn't work first time around, but
any good ideas that we're explored for the second time
and those orange and blue jerseys were you know, something
to behold. So if we can see that back then
I think it's happy days ahead. Hey, let's move on
there to my chat with Mark Robinson. Sat down with
(32:14):
them at a cafe in Kensington Euly Gert today Monday
here in London about a whole range of rugby issue
including their endorsement of Robinson as the World Rugby Chair
head of that boat next month.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Let's take a listening to that.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Ended up Chief executive Mark Robinson. Good to be sitting
it's a rainy or day in London, but be good
to catch up in Kensington and.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
A test week in London's always prettypecial, isn't it.
Speaker 7 (32:41):
Yeah, it's pretty cool to be back in this part
of the world, isn't it. There's definitely a lot of
hype around the whole autumn series which has built up
these amazing fixtures. I guess we're a little bit ahead
of the rest of them with this game just outside
the Red nine window, but there's a huge amount of
excitement building. Feels like a lot of hype from expect Kiwis,
(33:02):
and we know the English are certainly wanting to know
in their own lines, right what happened in July with
a couple of close games there, So you got to
be a big.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Week It's been a big weekend as well. Japan, let's
start there. It's an important market to the New Zealand rugby.
What do you get out of these test matches I
suppose going up to Japan playing the All Blacks, but
also when the Maldi All Blacks go up All Black
swifteen what are the vital things you get out of
these Japane trips.
Speaker 7 (33:25):
Well, the basis for the memory of understanding we signed
at the start last year was to make sure we
had more regular contact in that market. So historically we'd
gone out once in every four or five years look
to have a sort of strong commercial outcome from a
one off event, but it wasn't really allowing us to
(33:46):
build good partnerships and long term connections with the fans.
So as I'm sure people will see over the last
two years, we've been up there a lot in July
and October and even with Super Rugby preseason games last year,
so all of that just builds more continuity, more relationships
with existing partners where we have quite a on portfolio
(34:09):
of commercial partners now and prospects as well as the fans.
And you know, I think you would have seen through
the week just the way the Japanese fans are connecting
with our teams is fantastic.
Speaker 8 (34:18):
So look, it's it's been a really.
Speaker 7 (34:20):
Really successful first sort of eighty months to two years
in this and certainly the weekend and the week of
the match allowed us to build on that with.
Speaker 8 (34:31):
Any at a welcoming event.
Speaker 7 (34:32):
We had a whole range of meetings with existing partners,
new prospects as well as Jay are a few about
not only our EMOU but works such as the Nation's
Cup and things that are happening at World Rugby as well.
Speaker 8 (34:45):
So or in all a really productive time.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
While that was happening with just before combination of a
big NPC season at which it seemed that interest levels
had increased, I guess it was as pretty ange and
bad plenty.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
There was some upsets along the way. What do you
make of the.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
NBC season and the context of I guess we're news
on rugby season at the moment.
Speaker 7 (35:03):
Well, we've always been massive supporters of the competition, but
we've also been really clear that, you know, we need
to make it work, like a lot of things in rugby,
within a financial envelope. So yeah, all the great things
we've seen in the competition over the years, the history,
the connection to community, the provincial rivalries, and the emerging
talent and the great stories of an unearthing.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Future stars were all there to see.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
But as you say, some really nice sort of competitive
tension around uncertainty of results, which she helped give the competition
a lot of new impetus, I guess, especially since the
start in the middle stage, it felt like there was
lots of things happening every weekend, there were sort of
you know, some upset results, which was fantastic, and then
into the playoffs we saw some really high quality rugby.
(35:48):
I think from what we've seen, certainly the attendances and
the social media footprint's been really really.
Speaker 8 (35:56):
Positive, and I think the style.
Speaker 7 (35:59):
Of rugby built on what we saw in Super Rugby Pacific,
where again we had record viewership and social media footprint
and just a whole lot of positives entiment around the
laws we've been leading globally, I guess, and the shape
of the game and just how expensive and and sort
of free flowing the games have been so overalllready positive.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Where does that lean into with the pathways work that
is ongoing around the game in New Zealand. Does the
NPC that we've just seen help provide some data around
where this competition needs to go?
Speaker 8 (36:32):
Yeah, I mean that works. I think has been really clear.
Speaker 7 (36:35):
It's coming to a close now and we're going out
to share that with stakeholders in the.
Speaker 8 (36:38):
Next week or two.
Speaker 7 (36:43):
I mean it does validate, you know, the importance of
the competition. But as I say, we've always recognized it's
got an important place in New Zealand right be. It's
just how we make that fit within all the other
pathways and competitions we're doing. And so we're looking forward
to sitting down showing an update of the reports in
the near future, and then sitting down in December with
(37:04):
all the stakeholders again and mapping out a work plan
for twenty twenty five to how we work through this
sort of this reset work that we're looking to from
the end of twenty five Star to twenty six, where
we hope to put everything together and come up with
a more financially sustainable model.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
I can't say too much, but is it a dramatic
reset you're looking at at this point in time?
Speaker 7 (37:22):
Oh, look at this is really good for the work
to go and get in front of the stakeholders first
and foremost, and we want to be able to share
it with them. They are independent reports, so you know
we're not going to be saying too much more about
them other than just sharing initially and gaining some initial
feedback and views and providing some clarifications to question. So
that's what the next steps about. Would be unfair to
(37:43):
talk about it any more than that.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
The stage's been a couple of weeks coming up for
rugby or Wild's context. As this podcast goes up, you've
just announced the NZR is backing Brett Robinson, the Australian
for World Rugby chare ahead of the other two candidates.
Speaker 6 (37:56):
Why Brett Robinson? Why is either the News on Rugby choice?
Speaker 7 (37:59):
Well, I guess we've been considering this decision now for
the last two to three months, and certainly our start
point wasn't to focus on personalities or Northern Hemisphere, Southern
Hemisphere or anything like that. It was really about looking
at what we think the future of the game needs
now and establishing a set of criteria to match that,
(38:20):
to consider the candidates against and for us.
Speaker 8 (38:24):
You know, some of the things that came through as
we thought were important were, you.
Speaker 7 (38:29):
Know, someone with a clear vision for the game, that
was progressive, that recognizes games got to evolve.
Speaker 8 (38:36):
In different areas on and off the field.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
Someone that was deeply connected to and passionate about the game,
but had also worked in environments that were large and
complex and multi dimensional in terms of stakeholder demands and
that sort of thing. So when you weigh all of
that up and you think about issues such as as
player welfare, where you know, Brett's worked in this space
(39:02):
as a medical doctor and being involved in high performance sport,
you know he understands the chill into the sport in
that Australian market. There are clearly, you know, some some
rival codes which are focusing on you know, how they
connect in terms of the entertainment space with with fans.
So he brings a unique lens there. I think he
(39:22):
understands the emerging market space really well in terms of
the opportunities because the proximity of Australia in the United
States and Japan. So there are a range of different
things where we think he against.
Speaker 8 (39:36):
That criteria were established.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Was a preferred candidate, did you We presented to by
Benazzi of France, RONALDA.
Speaker 6 (39:42):
Vetaly did Bendiji on Ragy here From those two.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
We've had conversations with them through the last little while,
you know, and I think when we look at again
where we see the future of the game, we think
that that, Yeah, Brett's it's just a strong candidate.
Speaker 8 (40:04):
For all the reasons I talked about before.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I feel confident you could work with one of those
two if they did get the numb is in a
couple of weeks time.
Speaker 8 (40:09):
Oh look, I'm sure you know.
Speaker 7 (40:11):
It's like any of these situations that democratic process is.
No one's sure about how things will play out. But
I'm sure you just you have to get on and
make things work. In New Zealand would put its best
foot forward to make sure that it's considered in the
setup of any new board in any new working structure
(40:33):
across world.
Speaker 6 (40:33):
Rugby in a couple of weeks time.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
The vote as well on the twenty minute red card
Global trial going aheads. It's obviously in the Automnations series,
but one of the candidates, Benazzi France, was saying that
he doesn't it's on his mandate that he doesn't agree
with it. Where do you think that is at in
terms of a world rugby context and will this twenty
minute red card, which New Zealand Rugby has been quite
(40:56):
at the forefront of go ahead in terms of a
global trial.
Speaker 8 (41:00):
Well, I we'd like to think.
Speaker 7 (41:01):
So it's I mean, it's really positive development that we're
playing the trial over the next few weeks. Six nations
have signed that off. It seems clear that you know,
every nation apart from France are supportive of it, even
though you know Ireland sort of signaled some concern with
the previosideration of the of the proposal. The current proposal
(41:25):
lands well with them as well. So, look, this is
a proposal that's been play now for over five years.
It's been through an awful lot of competitions and trials
and research and been fed into different forums, and we
think it's just a common sense next step for the
(41:46):
game that balances all the right things in terms of
player welfare demands which are critically important, as well as
balancing the needs of the fans to have a contest
which is not lost because of being ruined by a
red card, and the game has changed so much in
terms of the way red card tore rewarded.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Now.
Speaker 7 (42:06):
Historically they were about it deliberate sort of foul play.
Now they obviously can be issued for incidents which are
more accidental by nature at times and very subjective at
times as well, and their incident rate has increased. So,
you know, it just makes perfect sense for us because
of the combination of the fan experience, looking after teams
(42:28):
interests and play welfare that this has continue to be
worked upon and we're only you know, when you think back,
we're the only probably contact sport in the world where
we create this sort of mismatch in our in our sport,
and when you're talking about premium events around things like
World Cups, Rugby Championships, Six Nations Nations Cup in the future,
we think we've got to move with the times.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Do you think there's a bit of confusion around it,
that the fact that a full red card in theory
does still exist for fuggish behavior, and maybe that there's
a bit of confusion from some of those countries that
oppose it, that you can replace a player they don't
come back on after twenty minutes, maybe.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
An orange card or some sort of brand.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
From a branding perspective, it maybe needs to be sort
of slightly to eat possibly.
Speaker 8 (43:10):
I mean, you raise a fair question.
Speaker 7 (43:12):
I mean, we've been really concerned that some countries who
have registered their concern with it and not agreed with
it haven't fully understood the proposal in previous forums. So
we're certainly hoping that that's not the case when people
come to vote on this. But you're right that safeguard
around deliberate foul play that we hardly ever see, you know,
(43:35):
in the game at all nowadays, is still covered for.
And then, as we say, the more newer development of
incidents around possibly things that are more accidental by nature
can be covered with more fairly with a twenty minute situation.
So look, yes, I think it's been an issue for
us that it hasn't been well understood or well researched
(43:56):
enough by others. But I think hopefully we're getting to
a situation now where by the vast majority of countries
are supportive.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
The South African Tours story is ticked along throughout the
course of maybe about a year or so. Now it's
you know, when the deal Blacks were there, it sounded
like it was not far away from being announced. Still
on track for this to go ahead in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 7 (44:17):
Yeah, Look, we are making good progress as it relates
to all the emerging competitions for the twenty twenty six
media rite cycle twenty twenty six to twenty thirty Nations Cup.
We're having meetings through this next few weeks and we've
got meetings on those with all of the major nations
(44:39):
attending in Dublin a few weeks time around the same
time as the as the elections, and absolutely the South
Africa All Blacks tours are still on track, so you.
Speaker 8 (44:50):
Know, we're trying to where we can.
Speaker 7 (44:53):
I think we'll finalize these in the next and the
next few weeks. It would be great to be out
in the market with them soon after.
Speaker 8 (44:58):
So look at these things.
Speaker 7 (45:00):
As I've said several times this year, they just take
a bit of time. That some of them represent significant
changes to calendars and there's just a few things we
need to make sure we get right before signed them off.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Anyways, with the Nation's Championship and these tour concepts, it's
one of the biggest changes really since maybe Argentina came
into RAGA Championship, but if you go back probably to
the professional era when the Try Nations came in.
Speaker 7 (45:20):
Yeah, that's right. You know, when you look ahead for
this next cycle from twenty twenty six, it's probably one
of the most exciting five year periods of the game
as it rates to fans in New Zealand, and they
are major changes, you know.
Speaker 8 (45:36):
I haven't.
Speaker 7 (45:38):
The feedback largely around the South Africa All Blacks model
seems really positive.
Speaker 8 (45:42):
We've got two Lines tours.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
I met with the Lines this morning here in London
and the women's and mens to both huge amount of
excitement building the air and we'll continue we'll probably pick
up speed on the work programs around the twenty twenty
nine Men's tour.
Speaker 8 (45:58):
In the early part of next year.
Speaker 7 (45:59):
We've got the Global Club Competition which is being worked
on as well Nations Cup. As you say, so, look,
I just think it's remarkable time for fans in New
Zealer to get excited about world class rugby coming into.
Speaker 8 (46:13):
Our shores in the next sort of while.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
And yeah, we do need to make sure we get
all of the preparation for that being on if we can.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Black fernds this year, but up but down. We're in
London at the moment, which is going to be the
side of the World Cup final in just under a
year's time. I guess where do you see the black
ferns and where they're at? After a couple of losses
to England who are in an imperious form at the
moment and Ireland was a surprise loss, where do you
see there out of year at from the World Cup?
Speaker 8 (46:39):
Well, look, I think I was here back in September.
Speaker 7 (46:44):
I think it was when we played England at Twickenham,
and I think people would all recognize we made some
really strong progress leading into that game and played really
well for long periods, so the direction of travel.
Speaker 8 (46:57):
Then we were really positive about.
Speaker 7 (46:59):
Clearly the Irish game was a bit of a setback
and Ellen and the team have sort of registered their
disappointment with that, and then we saw them come back
and I thought played really well against France again. So
obviously we'd all like to see more consistency as and
I think we're always disappointed when in any team in
black losers, but I think overall probably take stock of things,
(47:22):
get everyrun home and go through a really good thorough
review and find out how we can wrap all the
possible support around the team leading into Super Rugby opicking
next year. We've got you know, a good amount of
Test matches leading into the World Cup and just set
the team up for all the possible success we can with,
(47:42):
you know, if we need more resourcing or if we
need more competitions or fixtures, sorry, then that'll be the
things we sort of decide at the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Probably I haven't touched on the All Blacks, but a
big obviously three weeks coming up or four weeks coming
up in Europe for the side, I guess on the
back of that Japan results and Scott Robertson's first year,
your assessment of sort of where the All Blacks sit
on the cusp of these big tests coming up.
Speaker 7 (48:06):
Yeah, I mean overall we're we're reasonably positive. We think
the direction of travel overall has been clear for people
to see that, you know, always disappointing to lose, and
again Scott and the team clearly, you know, felt frustrating
those losses earlier in the in the in the campaign,
in the test season, but they really fine margins around
(48:28):
the international game, and we saw that especially in South Africa.
Exciting to see the emergence of such great young talent
coming through and seeing opportunities provided for some of those players.
I think a large season like this, even though it's
hugely challenging, has provided that basis for a new group
to come together and develop some cohesion on and off
(48:48):
the field, and I think we just got to remember
that not only is it a new group on and
off the field, this is probably one of the toughest
schedules we've had in many years with the way the
calendar has worked out. So overall, you know, we're pretty positive.
Well again, there'll be quite an extensive review at the
end of the year having a look at all the
things and where we can developing the growth in the environment,
(49:10):
but as we sit here right now, we're reasonably positive.
Speaker 6 (49:13):
It's finished positive as well.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Community rugby figures understand up, which is it must be
incredibly welcoming for New Zealand rugby because some of those
has been challenging areas, some of those key demographics, so
to get them reversed or going the right direction must
be pretty pleasing.
Speaker 8 (49:29):
Yeah, it is. And then it's a second year in
a row. We've had.
Speaker 7 (49:33):
A good uplift in community numbers some of those key markers,
you know, teenage boys especially is often quite a strong
mark for how the community game's going.
Speaker 8 (49:42):
So to have two years.
Speaker 7 (49:44):
In a row with LYFT in those areas is really positive.
Speaker 8 (49:47):
Great year for women and girls. We've seen the continued building.
Speaker 7 (49:50):
Off Rugby World Cup a couple of years ago, which
has been fantastic, and even in senior men's club rugby
seeing growth as well. So look, we're not sitting on
our laurels at all here. We know, you know, there's
always work to be done in this area, but overall
we know we're being really progressive and challenging status quo
around formats, laws, different trials and we'll continue to do that.
(50:14):
Steve Lancaster and his team have done some great work
in this area and I think we're developing some real
momentum in this space. So look, we've got you know,
more resourcing as we've seen going into that space than
we have historically and we think it's starting to pay
dividends at the moment.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Mark Robinson, never a quiet time in rugby, is it.
Thank you very much for joining us in London and
we're shing the best of luck navigating all those meetings
over the next few weeks.
Speaker 8 (50:36):
Great to see Ali, Thanks very much, Mark.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Robinson, the on Rugby, Jeryfory appreciative of his time as
always on the podcast, and Liam, that will about do
us big tests this weekend.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
A prediction before we wrap up, before we wrap.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Up, Yes, big challenge Elliott at Twickenham.
Speaker 5 (50:54):
I think what was it last time.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
There the All Blacks collapsed to draw at the back
end of the twenty twenty two season. I'm going to
say the All Blacks win this weekend in a very
tight fixture, maybe by three five points, and I think
it would be a bit of a dark sign if
they don't. Winning at Twickenham is tough, but I think
(51:18):
England currently not where Island or France are. So if
they don't win this weekend it's real back to the
world territory for Scott Robinson. So the All Blacks to
win in a very tight contest.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
All right, So the All Blacks by five.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Thank you Liam, as always, look forward to catching up
next week from Dublin and checking it again on the podcast.
Speaker 5 (51:41):
Cheers mate, go well, that.
Speaker 8 (51:43):
Has been right.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
We direct with four Cliff Solutions, lifting you and your
business to a high and level of Thanks is always
for laughing bys English and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
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