March 25, 2025 • 48 mins
Are you struggling with infertility? In this episode, I talk with Liz Gray, LCSW, RPT about her IVF journey through an HSP lens and:
• The physical, emotional, and mental impact of infertility treatment
• Why you should ask questions and trust your instincts when interviewing providers
• Transitioning into parenthood and navigating postpartum as a highly sensitive person
Liz is a Highly Sensitive Person, certified EMDR therapist and clinical supervisor, wife, human & goldendoodle momma, organizer, forever learner, quiet leader, social introvert, think-outside-the-box creator, trauma survivor, and infertility warrior. She is the proud co-founder of the Trauma-Informed Maternal Health Directory, which connects women to safe, highly qualified trauma-informed providers while they navigate infertility, pregnancy, and new parenthood. Liz lives outside of Chicago, IL with her husband, mini goldendoodle, and 8-month old son.
Keep in touch with Liz:
• Website: https://www.maternaltraumasupport.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maternaltraumasupport
Resources Mentioned:
• The Trauma-Informed Maternal Health Network: https://www.maternaltraumasupport.com/provider.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz Gray (00:00):
Throughout the infertility journey, my
pregnancy, during the birth,postpartum, I've come across
providers who have done so muchharm, and it's not okay.
I want to empower other womenthat it's okay to say no, it's
okay to fire a provider for anyreason.
It's not just okay, but it'sessential to have a team of
(00:20):
people that you feel safe andcomfortable with, because
infertility and pregnancy arethe most vulnerable times that a
person might ever go through intheir life.
April Snow (00:40):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(01:02):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withLiz Gray about her journey of
infertility, the emotional andphysical impact of doing IVF as
a sensitive person, and hereventual transition into
parenthood.
Liz is a highly sensitiveperson, certified EMDR,
therapist and clinicalsupervisor, organizer, creator,
(01:24):
trauma survivor and infertilitywarrior.
She is the proud co-founder ofthe Trauma-Informed Maternal
Health Directory, which connectswomen to safe, highly qualified
trauma-informed providers whilethey navigate infertility,
pregnancy and new parenthood.
Liz lives outside of Chicago,illinois, with her husband,
golden Doodle, and eighth-monthmonth old son.
(01:45):
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(02:08):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Welcome Liz.
(02:32):
I'm so happy to have you hereon the podcast today.
Liz Gray (02:36):
I am so excited to be here, knowing you as a friend,
as a colleague yes.
April Snow (02:41):
I know we go way back and we've done other
projects together, colleague.
Yes, I know we go way back andwe've done other projects
together, and it's sweet to becoming together again in this
space and hearing more of yourpersonal story.
So before we get started,though, I always like to ask
people what your HSP discoverystory is, how and when you
realize that you're a highlysensitive person.
Liz Gray (02:59):
I wish I had a really exciting story to share with you
, or even knew the exact momentthat I found out that I was HSP.
But I don't remember exactly.
It was probably seven or eightyears ago, and my guess is that
I just stumbled across something, and it might've been your
Facebook group that you have forhighly sensitive therapists.
It might've been an article ora blog or a podcast.
(03:21):
Again, I don't remember theexact context, but what I do
remember is learning that therewas a name for what I'd
experienced my whole life, andso that aha moment of discovery
and feeling like, wow, this isactually.
I want this to be a piece of myidentity because it fits, and
(03:44):
that I kind of just took off andsince then that is.
You know, that's where I foundmy best friends and connected
with you.
April Snow (03:53):
Oh, I love that.
I want this to be a piece of myidentity.
That is so empowering.
It feels so good to hear it andthere is something about that
right having the context.
Oh, this is why I am the way Iam, and oftentimes the actual
moment kind of fades in thedistance, but just that feeling
(04:13):
of okay, I know myself is really, really powerful and, yeah,
it's so much community comes out.
I can't I just can't believehow many people I've connected
with since realizing that I'm anHSP, you being one of them.
It's incredible, from all overthe place.
Liz Gray (04:29):
Yeah, and I think for HSPs we need deep connection.
And looking back, realizingthat most of the people in my
life pre-HSP discovery are notsensitive, and I felt like
really didn't understand me.
April Snow (04:44):
Yeah, it's true.
You start to realize, oh, Ineed more people like myself in
my life and I think there's morespace to be fully sensitive and
just let those parts of you outand not be the caregiver all
the time, or the one who putsthemselves aside or the
empathetic one, however you wantto hold it.
So, yeah, a lot of things shiftafter that aha moment.
Liz Gray (05:07):
Yes, personally and professionally, because I
started working with primarilyhighly sensitive women in their
mid-twenties, thirties as atherapist, and so that has been
really amazing too, even thoughmy clients don't know a ton
about really my personal historyor even the ways in which I'm
(05:30):
highly sensitive.
But a lot of them say, Liz,just knowing that you're an HSP,
that's enough.
That's enough.
That feels really good.
April Snow (05:37):
Doesn't it?
It's like just being able to bewith.
There's something differentabout being with an HSP in
friendship, community andrelationship of any kind.
It's like I can just relax, Ican be myself and I get it
Exactly.
Liz Gray (05:50):
And it shows a different.
Yeah, it shows a differentlyfor all of us, but it's like
this common language.
April Snow (05:55):
Exactly you can settle into.
Well, speaking of your work, Iknow you have since kind of
switched your work based on yourpersonal experience with
infertility, with IVF.
So I'm curious, how has beingan HSP impacted that experience
as much as you can tell?
Liz Gray (06:12):
I would say it's impacted that in every single
way.
We probably don't even haveenough time for me to go into
all of it.
But when I was preparing to talkwith you today I was just I was
really reflecting on myexperience as an HSP.
So I actually went through theHSP test on Dr Lane's website
(06:33):
again just to re-acclimatemyself with some of the traits
and where I fit in and thenthinking about my infertility
journey and then theintersection between the two and
one of the things so I guess Ican kind of talk about in terms
of like physical, mental andemotional impacts that it had.
So I'll just go into each ofthose.
In terms of the physical impactthat IVF had on me is, first of
(06:58):
all I just want to name thatanyone going through infertility
is well, first of all a warrior, but it's going to look
different for every person, butthere are definitely some
commonalities.
So I would say the physicalimpact is essentially just for a
little bit of backgroundcontext, for a menstruating
(07:20):
woman, generally her ovaries arethe size of thumbs, so one egg
is released each month duringovulation and the cycle repeats
During IVF.
One of the phases is ovarianstimulation.
You might hear people say likeI'm doing stims that's kind of
(07:40):
the abbreviation that you know.
It's easier to say that andessentially we are doing
injections to ourselves.
I didn't know that ahead oftime, so it's just doing
injections and also takingmedication multiple ways.
I had to take medication fivedifferent ways, which I didn't
know about that either.
April Snow (08:00):
Can we pause there for a second?
Can you tell me what the fiveways are?
If you're comfortable, yeah ofcourse.
Liz Gray (08:06):
So there's the injections, and those are.
You know you often mix themedications yourself and then
either do the injectionsyourself or, if you have a
partner to do that.
I also know some people whothey and their partner were not
able to do it, so they wouldeither go to their clinic, but
that's a couple of times a day,every day, for it could be up to
(08:30):
, you know, two weeks whenyou're in this phase, or I do
know of some places thatactually like there's a nurse
who you can hire and have themcome to your house and do it.
April Snow (08:40):
But so there's the injections, there's oral pills,
there is like, for example, Ihad to put estrogen patches on
my stomach at times, and thenthere are like vaginal
suppositories wow, that's a lotof just thinking about the
amount of overwhelm that wouldcause the not just the tracking
(09:02):
of what to do, but also thephysical sensations of applying
medication in so many differentways.
It's a lot on a sensitive bodyanybody but sensitive body.
Liz Gray (09:13):
Yes, it is, and you know, for me, I think for my
sensitivity, like my musclestend to twitch, and so they were
twitching even more duringstims, I get itchy.
Sometimes I was even more itchy.
I feel bloated.
Sometimes I felt even morebloated, which, to go back to
what I was saying earlier,typically, you know, a woman's
ovaries are the size of thumbs.
(09:34):
By the end of stims, whenyou're ready for the egg
retrieval, ovaries are the sizeof tennis balls.
April Snow (09:39):
Wow, that's a big change.
Liz Gray (09:43):
Huge.
So you are so bloated and thenthere's a fear of, like I was
doing pole dancing well before Istarted and, and you know, I
had to stop because there's thisfear that like something could
get twisted or torn internally.
So there really is a lot ofwear and tear that happens on
(10:04):
the body and then there's nauseaand GI issues and just so much
and bruising from the injectionsand it's a lot.
April Snow (10:18):
Yeah, everything is disrupted and you kind of have
to halt also how you're takingcare of yourself, even Exactly.
Liz Gray (10:24):
Yeah, and it really just thinking about the schedule
like sometimes I had to takeoral pills three times a day and
do injections two to threetimes a day and they're
different.
So you have to be so organizedand scheduled and even me, who
is very organized, it's stillreally overwhelming.
(10:46):
And then there's the fear of ohmy gosh, if I mess up, if I
forget something, if Iaccidentally take it twice, or
what if I leave the medicationout.
I mean, these medications are$25,000.
April Snow (10:59):
Right.
The stakes are so high on everylevel financially, logistically
I mean, this is your shot to dothis.
Yeah, exactly.
Liz Gray (11:08):
So that I would say is kind of an overview of the
physical impacts.
You know, mentally, I think, asan HSP and also someone who is
an overthinker and anxious, Iwas always thinking three, five,
10 steps ahead.
April Snow (11:26):
Sure, you have to.
Liz Gray (11:27):
Yeah, and planning for ?
I mean, I was I was about tosay planning for the best and
worst case scenario.
I don't even think I was ableto plan for the best case
scenario.
I think I couldn't allow myselfto even think about being
pregnant, having a baby, becauseI was so tunnel vision.
I had to just get through thisphase.
April Snow (11:48):
You're just focusing that on applying the
medications going through theIVF process, but not able to
even let yourself think what'snext.
Exactly, it makes sense, yeah,yeah.
Liz Gray (11:58):
And what was really interesting is typically in my
relationship.
My husband is.
Much more of the interesting istypically in my relationship my
husband is much more of the Idon't want to say pessimist,
I'll say realist where he cankind of jump to a conclusion of
like oh, we're doomed you know,but he tends to be, and I'm much
more patient and optimistic andlike, okay, hold on, like let's
(12:23):
take a step back, let's pause.
And our roles kind of switchedwhen we were going for IVF and
that was really surprising toboth of us.
So, for example, I ended updoing three retrievals back to
back to back, and which was alot of my body too, I mean.
Some people take breaks, takelong breaks in between, but I
(12:44):
kind of was like well, we're onthis train, let's just keep
going.
Yep.
And after my first eggretrieval I believe I got 22
eggs, were, you know, taken- I'mactually going to look up my
stats.
So let's see the first retrieval.
(13:04):
Oh, actually, 20 eggs wereretrieved, which you find out
the day of.
So I woke up, I was put under,woke up and they say, hey, you
got 20 eggs.
So I'm thinking, oh my gosh,that's incredible.
That's a good number.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, the thing is well, it'salso like kind of the Goldilocks
, because too many.
I mean some people can have 30,60 eggs retrieved, and that is,
(13:26):
but oftentimes those eggs aren'tmature, so actually, that's you
know they can hyper stimulateor overstimulate, sorry, but
then there's some people thatdon't get enough and maybe only
get one, two or three eggs youknow that are retrieved.
So it's like it's just thisnumbers game.
So like 20 felt like a reallygood number, right.
(13:47):
And then the next day theycalled me and said of those 20,
12 of those are mature eggs andnine were fertilized.
April Snow (13:57):
Okay, so it quickly drops down.
You're less than half now ofwhat you thought you had.
Liz Gray (14:02):
Exactly.
And then you have to wait acouple of days until they call
it's blastocysts, that they saylike, hey, this is how many made
it to blast.
Out of the 20 eggs, only two ofmy embryos, so that's after the
egg and the sperm have beenfertilized.
Of those nine, two of them madeit to blast Wow.
(14:24):
And then we got ours testedeach time, which is Genetic
testing.
Genetic testing, and you haveto send the embryos out and it
can take a couple of weeks andit's not covered by insurance.
Right, a lot of this is out ofpocket, a lot of it, and I'll
get into the financial piecelater, and it's a couple, the
(14:45):
financial piece later, sure, andit's a couple thousand dollars
each time.
Wow, and so of those two, oneof them was a healthy embryo and
one was unhealthy.
April Snow (14:55):
Wow, so you go from 20 to.
What an emotional rollercoaster.
Liz Gray (14:59):
Such an emotional roller coaster, and I remember
the exact moment that we gotthat call.
I was in my bedroom and I wasjust devastated because here I
am, knowing that I was probablygoing to do multiple retrievals,
because my insurance allowed usto bank embryos, which means
you can basically do multiplerounds of retrievals and kind of
(15:21):
store your embryos, whereasother plans sometimes, or a
doctor or patient might decidetogether.
We'll do a retrieval and thenwe'll do the transfer, the
embryo transfer.
April Snow (15:32):
So either you transfer or you bank it.
Pretty much, yeah.
Liz Gray (15:35):
And then there's fresh transfers and frozen transfers.
I mean, there's so manydifferent variations.
It's a lot.
April Snow (15:42):
I mean there's thinking about overthinking.
There's so many ways that youcould just get frozen in this
process.
Liz Gray (15:49):
Totally, and it is so it's like literally learning a
new language.
It is so complicated andcomplex.
So we knew early on we weregoing to do a couple retrievals.
Our insurance allowed four ayear and so I kind of went in
saying I'm going to do four.
That's kind of where my mindwas, and I just remember getting
(16:10):
the phone call that only one ofthem was healthy and being
absolutely devastated and, ofcourse, thinking like, oh my
gosh, like what if we only getone or zero the next time?
April Snow (16:26):
Right, and this is a trend.
Liz Gray (16:28):
Exactly yeah, and my husband and I was just so amazed
by him.
He said Liz, this is so good.
It means that this is working.
I have faith in this process.
April Snow (16:40):
Wow, oh, what a bright light to come in and help
you see that Like, oh, this isactually.
There's still hope.
Yes, because we have onehealthy embryo.
Liz Gray (16:50):
Exactly, yeah, and I was like we only have one.
And he's like, but we have one,we have one yes.
And you know, it was just.
It was really helpful for me tokind of step out of the the
pity and sadness and to be ableto say, wow, okay, because we
(17:10):
had been given a 1% chance toconceive, naturally.
So really, if you think aboutit, it's pretty incredible that
we had this true embryo.
Yeah, it's a miracle, yeah, andI'll just really quickly.
So the second retrieval I had25 eggs that were retrieved and
then I don't have to go throughall the numbers, but we ended up
(17:31):
with six embryos that gottested and were viable.
Four of them were viable andthen one wasn't and one was when
we had to get retested.
Anyway, that ended up being anunhealthy one.
So four out of six of thoseended up being healthy.
Now let me also say that whatreally complicated this is that,
(17:52):
out of those five now embryosthat we had that were healthy,
all five were girls.
No way, and I had my heart seton a boy.
April Snow (18:02):
Okay, okay.
So there's still.
There's so many layers andpotential for disappointment
along the way.
Exactly, wow, okay.
Liz Gray (18:12):
And we had to decide are we going to do a third
retrieval before we knew whatthe results of the second
retrieval were Right Also, so itwas just.
It's such a just, this game ofwaiting and making decisions,
and parts of it are so fastfaster than like you have to
make a split second decisionright, and there are parts that
(18:32):
are so painfully slow that itfeels like time is just stopped.
April Snow (18:39):
Yes, this is.
I mean, this is high pressurefor anyone, but I'm just
thinking as an HSP who isliterally wired to process
slowly, to think about decisionsfor a really long time, who has
to kind of minimize stimulationphysically, emotionally,
mentally.
This is, you're puttingyourself through the ringer.
Liz Gray (18:58):
Yes, in every way physically, but also it's this
mental game that you have toplay and emotionally, just the
impact of having, you know, itwas five different ways that I
took medications, but it was intotal.
I took 17 different types ofmedications.
Wow, that's a lot, a lot.
And my doctor, who was fabulous, was very, I say, aggressive
(19:21):
with her treatment, meaning thatshe really pushed, you know, my
body to the limit because sheknew that I could get more.
April Snow (19:31):
Right, but at some point does that?
Yes, you could, but is it atsome point I don't want to, or
it's too much?
Even though physically I can,maybe, emotionally I can't.
Liz Gray (19:43):
I think.
For me it was almost like it'seither all or nothing.
April Snow (19:47):
Yeah, you have to keep going.
Liz Gray (19:49):
Yeah.
But, I also know that for a lotof people they need a slower
pace, they need a gentler courseof treatment, and what's funny
is like typically, I would bethat person who needs a lot of
time because, as you werementioning, like, I need a lot
of time to process and but alsomaybe there was a fear that if I
(20:09):
took a pause, I wouldn't beable to start up again.
April Snow (20:12):
Well, that too, it's just thinking about what you
already know about this process.
There's going to be such a deepresistance from your nervous
system next time, knowing justhow intense it is and depleting
it is.
So at this point it's like,well, it's better to keep going.
Liz Gray (20:28):
Yeah, and actually so there's a so there's so many
different procedures, butthere's something called duo
stim, which is essentially doingtwo egg retrievals in one cycle
, so not giving my body time toadjust after that egg retrieval
and like get my period and thenstart up again.
It's basically like a couple ofdays after you start the stims
(20:52):
again, just go right back intoit, Yep.
And so our plan after the firstretrieval actually was to go
right into the next one and doduo stim.
But I developed mild OHSS,which is when your ovaries hyper
overstimulate, and so I didactually have to give my body a
little bit of a rest, and when Isay a little bit of a rest, the
(21:15):
typical amount, you know like acouple extra days.
But my body was like nope, wecan't go right into it too much.
April Snow (21:21):
Yeah, sometimes your body will tell you the answer.
Liz Gray (21:24):
Exactly.
April Snow (21:26):
Throughout this.
I mean, we've talked about whyit could be harder as an HSP,
but is there any parts of beingsensitive that actually was
helpful during this process?
Liz Gray (21:34):
well, I think thinking things, you know, having a plan
a, b, c, um.
I think some of that wasdefinitely helpful at times I'm
not going to say all the time.
Probably one of the biggestpieces that was helpful is my
need for connection is so deepthat I ended up finding really
(21:59):
amazing providers who weretrauma-informed and sensitive
and who really guided methroughout the process.
April Snow (22:08):
Yeah, it seemed like that was a bolster throughout,
whether it be with your husband,whether it be with your doctor
saying you can do this, let'shelp you see the bigger picture
here, to help you keep going.
That's so important to have theright people around you, and I
mean at any time in life, butespecially when you're going
through something so vulnerableand high stakes.
(22:28):
That makes sense.
So, those relational gifts ofbeing sensitive, you pick the
right people I did, and maybehaving good intuition helps too.
I wonder, as an HSP, likeknowing like this person feels
right.
I wonder if that came in at all.
Liz Gray (22:45):
Yeah, and knowing when the person didn't feel right
also, yes, and part of thereason that and we'll get into
this at the end but part of thereason I created a new business
and formed a national directoryis because my first doctor,
before the one that I'm talkingabout, was terribly insensitive
(23:07):
and really activated my traumaand it was such an upsetting
experience that I went throughthat.
I, you know I tend to I don'tget angry very often, but when
there's an injustice and whenI'm personally affected by it,
that's when I tend to act and Iactually kind of love that
(23:28):
specific type of anger thatcomes up in me, because it's
like fire, it just feels like Ihave to do something about it.
And I think my sensitivityreally played into that, because
it was just this again, thispassion, this fire, and you know
it ended up getting me to whereI am now.
April Snow (23:52):
You know it ended up getting me to where I am now.
Yeah, it's so empowering anduseful because you know we're
emotionally impacted.
But then we can channel thatemotion into action and there's
no other choice.
Like I don't want other peopleto go through what I've went
through.
Liz Gray (24:03):
That's exactly what I've said since the beginning.
April Snow (24:05):
Right and I know well I imagine.
I don't know for sure, butthat's what helps spark you into
saying I'm going to help otherpeople find the right providers
because I don't want them to gothrough what I just went through
.
Liz Gray (24:16):
Yes, yeah, my pregnancy.
During the birth postpartum,I've come across providers who
have done so much harm and it'snot okay, first of all, but I
(24:36):
want to empower other women thatit's okay to say no, it's okay
to fire a provider for anyreason, it's okay to.
It's not just okay, but it'sessential to have a team of
people that you feel safe andcomfortable with, because
infertility and pregnancy, Ithink especially, are the most
vulnerable times that a personmight ever go through in their
(24:59):
life.
April Snow (25:00):
We are a very vulnerable population.
Absolutely, and it's okay tohave standards of who you want
to bring into that process withyou.
High standards, high standards,high standards.
Yes, exactly.
Yep, I want to talk aboutparenting, but before we do, I'd
love to pause on this point alittle bit.
Let's say someone is startingthe process of looking for a
(25:22):
provider.
What would you say is a big redflag to look for in a provider?
Liz Gray (25:29):
Oh, a red flag?
Okay, I thought you were goingto ask okay, what should they
look for?
So something that I starteddoing is actually doing a couple
of consultations and interviewswith providers before deciding
to work with them.
Smart and I mean, I will saythat to interview doctors at an
infertility clinic, you have tobe registered as a new patient.
(25:52):
So it is paperwork.
I mean it felt like I wassigning my life away just
filling out so many forms aboutmy history.
I mean, you know, essentially,think about when you're going to
a new doctor, but this is likesuper intense.
So I just know that it'sprobably going to be a process,
but I'd much rather someone gothrough and meet with the doctor
(26:15):
and decide this isn't right andto like go through and get
weeks, months in and realizethis isn't the right person and
then have to switch anyway,right?
So I think again.
Ok, I know I went to.
What should you do?
April Snow (26:31):
but with that being, said let's talk about both.
Yeah, yeah.
Liz Gray (26:34):
Yeah, I think there's a lot to learn though, during
those consultations.
Oh, and what I was going to sayis a red flag is if the
provider doesn't have an answerto the question like tell me how
you're trauma informed or tellme how you support patients
emotionally.
Yes, because that's somethingthat was, for me, personally,
(26:57):
very important was to find aprovider who understood the
nuances and the sensitivity ofworking with someone who was
going through infertility andthen pregnancy and had a history
of sexual trauma Like to me.
I needed to have that extradegree of sensitivity and I
didn't think there were too manywrong ways to answer that
(27:18):
question until I asked thequestion and the answers were
really telling and reallydisappointing, ranging from oh,
I don't know, I've never thoughtabout that Whoa?
Yep To the midwife who I endedup choosing, giving just such a
beautiful answer, which she gavespecific examples of how she
(27:40):
asked for consent and, you know,wants to know about my history.
And then she also said and Ilearned from my patients too,
and so I realized yep, exactly,she was collaborative, she
wanted to know from me also, andthat felt so safe.
And that was the answer Ididn't even know I was looking
for, but I was.
April Snow (28:02):
That's it.
You know when you feel safe.
Yeah, and you brought up a goodpoint, which is even if you
think you know the answer, askthe question anyway.
Just in case.
You said, I don't think thatthere would be a wrong answer to
these questions, but you foundout there was Not everyone's
trauma-informed, not everyone iscollaborative.
I think we have theseassumptions about providers that
(28:23):
this is how they should be, buta lot of times they're not.
We have to ask those questions,lettuce or not.
Liz Gray (28:28):
We have to ask those questions and what I found too,
with medical providersspecifically, is they can be a
fantastic medical doctor, yes,and the bedside manner may not
be so great.
And I think that's what can bereally challenging.
Is that conflict, thatdisconnect, when you get someone
who gives you really greatmedical care and they can do
(28:49):
harm, emotional harm.
April Snow (28:52):
Absolutely, they could be a very skilled medical
clinician.
But then, right, that emotionalpiece is just as important.
If they're not trauma-informed,if they're not client or
patient oriented, they could.
I mean, this is a veryvulnerable process, as you
shared.
You need someone who's going tofeel safe in that.
Yeah.
Liz Gray (29:12):
And speaking of that first reproductive
endocrinologist, the infertilitydoctor that we met with, she
was TikTok famous, I mean, sheis like very well known in the
field.
And she is again great at whatshe does.
But I felt like a number to herand to the clinic as a whole
(29:36):
and I think that's another pieceof especially going through
infertility as an HSP is.
We can read people really well.
You know when you're beingtreated well or not you know
when you're being kind ofshuffled around and like not
that I expect the red carpetrolled out for me but, I, expect
communication, I expect respect, and even the basics weren't
(29:59):
there.
April Snow (30:00):
Yeah, exactly, it's a good reminder.
You know when something's offas an HSP.
Oh yeah, trust it.
Just because someone has areally strong reputation or has
a really successful clinic, it'sokay if you choose something
that's less shiny, if it worksfor you and it feels safer and
more welcoming.
(30:20):
I mean, this is such animportant time to be picky, if
you can be.
Liz Gray (30:25):
Yeah, and there's a lot at stake and there's so much
trust that you have to put intoyour doctor who's really
guiding you and making a lot ofdecisions and, you know, using
their expertise, because this isall new and scary and yeah, so
it's just so important that youfind someone who you feel like
is really seeing you as a humanbeing and as a person, not just
(30:47):
as a number and someone to addto their, you know, stats of
positive pregnancy test Exactly,and this is personal.
April Snow (30:55):
Yeah, so you've gone through this IVF process and
I'm wondering if we can now talkabout what was the transition
like moving from that intoparenting and I know not
everyone gets to do that, but Iwonder if we could speak to that
process.
Yeah, hard.
Liz Gray (31:12):
It was very challenging and I think what
made it so hard for me is just acouple extenuating
circumstances.
One is having my birth planessentially ripped up in a
million different pieces andtossed out the window and lit on
(31:34):
fire and stopped on.
I mean all the things it'sheartbreaking.
Yeah, it was, and it didn't gothe way I planned.
You know, my plan was to I mean, I interviewed multiple
midwives.
I knew I wanted a midwiferather than an OBGYN, and so I,
you know, saw this midwifepractice throughout my entire
(31:55):
pregnancy.
I picked out there were threedifferent birthing suites.
I got to go and I chose themiddle one, like this is, you
know, birthing suite number two.
It's this beautiful room with abig tub, like I wanted to do a
water birth and I had to gettransferred to the hospital.
April Snow (32:12):
So all of this planning and I know you're such
an organized person and youprobably had this you get
settled into this version of it,right, Like this is what I'm
expecting, and then it just getsthrown out the window.
So hard as an HSP, hard ingeneral, also hard as an HSP
when we need more time forchange.
Liz Gray (32:31):
Exactly and well time I got, because the labor was 57
hours total 57 hours.
Liz 57 hours.
April Snow (32:42):
Wow.
Liz Gray (32:44):
I had no idea how high of a pain tolerance I had until
I went through that Sure,because 44 of those hours were
actually unmedicated.
April Snow (32:54):
Sure.
Until finally, almost two days,you're in labor with nothing to
manage the pain.
Exactly, yeah.
Liz Gray (33:01):
Minor.
You know, I was open toanything really, except I really
didn't want an epidural.
But once I finally agreed to doit, it was the biggest relief
and I was like why didn't I dothis earlier?
But no, I know why?
But still okay.
It wasn't so bad, but I thinkwhat was disappointing is it
wasn't my choice.
(33:22):
That's the hardest part, right,yeah, so you know.
And then eventually to have itwas never an emergency but it
definitely was an unexpectedC-section.
So to have that, to have areally, really insensitive
doctor who something I've alsostruggled with is with her she
(33:44):
provided fantastic medical careand her bedside manner was so I
want to say, laughable.
But there's nothing funny aboutit, but it's.
It's like you can't evenbelieve it how bad it is Exactly
.
And I felt it, my husband feltit, my doula felt it, I mean it
was.
It was pretty awful thetreatment that that we all
received.
(34:04):
But so, yeah, combination ofthis change in birth plan,
C-section slash, traumatic birthand then developing postpartum
depression made it really hardfor me to connect with my son
for a good three, four, almostfive months.
(34:25):
We had some major feeding issueswith him where I felt like all
I was doing was breastfeedinghim but he still wasn't gaining
his birth weight fast enough.
And so there's this added layerof our pediatrician basically
thinking that we were neglectingour child and not feeding him.
(34:45):
And it was um To be in such adaze from.
I mean, I was on very heavypainkillers after the C-section,
I was on barely any sleep, andthen to have a physician
(35:06):
basically say I think that youare not feeding your son and
they diagnosed him incorrectlyas failure to thrive.
It was devastating, I mean justthe scariest thing.
And to feel so unheard,unlisted to.
They weren't like anything thatmy husband and I were trying to
(35:29):
say or explain.
It was very much dismissed andit was literally like talking to
a wall and we did end upswitching providers and letting
that one know why.
But that was just another pieceof all of it that made it
really hard to connect.
April Snow (35:46):
Oh my gosh, I mean here you've already gone through
IVF, which I haven't personallyexperienced, but just having
supported clients through thatprocess and friends, it wreaks
havoc on your physical andemotional body, as you shared.
And now to then go through along, unexpected labor process
and then, on top of that, nowyou're getting accused of not
(36:07):
taking care of your child whenyou're working so incredibly
hard to do everything you canwhile you're going through
postpartum Yep.
And this is so difficult, likeand I can just imagine just the
feeling of what these doctorsare saying to you and not being
heard in this Like I'mstruggling.
Liz Gray (36:29):
Yeah, and what's really interesting, I think
about the first visit of thepediatrician, where I mean this
just gives you a sense of whereI was mentally we brought a
diaper bag.
All I had in there was thehospital paperwork.
I didn't have any diapers orwipes or anything, even though I
(36:49):
, like I knew that it made sense.
But also I'm like, oh, we livefive minutes away, he's not
going to need a diaper change.
April Snow (36:55):
Well was.
Liz Gray (36:57):
I wrong, and you know, and to be looked at like
judgmentally, like oh, youdidn't bring diapers, let me see
if we have any versus whatshould have happened was oh my
gosh, this happens all the time,whether or not it does you know
, or this is the first time thishas happened.
Of course.
(37:17):
You're exhausted, you'rehealing, I'm going to bring you
some diapers Actually, in fact,I'm going to bring you a couple
extra and you know, I think.
I needed to be nurtured andnormalized and in that moment
that was just one of manymoments where I felt so judged
and incompetent and already Iwas feeling that myself, I was
(37:40):
judging myself and I was feelinglike an incompetent parent.
But then to have other peopleessentially say that to you it's
not okay.
April Snow (37:50):
And you're so right that in that moment you needed
compassion.
Yeah, and you're so right thatin that moment you needed
compassion.
Yeah, I mean, they have a newmom in front of them who, I mean
they should know what new momsgo through.
They see it every single day,how much of a struggle that is.
I mean, even if you were fullyresourced mentally, emotionally,
(38:17):
physically you still might notknow to bring a diaper if you're
five minutes away.
Right, yeah, let's think aboutthis and have a little grace
instead of being critical andmaking you feel worse than you
already do.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, it justamazes me how many providers
don't have that bedside mannerwhen they're in the job of
caring for people and astherapists, it's so unfathomable
(38:39):
to me, but I know that they'rekind of in a different space and
they're just going through thephysical motions of care.
But I mean, it causes a lot ofharm.
I know we both have seen peopleon the other side of that.
Yeah, absolutely, and lived itpersonally as well.
Liz Gray (38:55):
Yeah, and one of the hardest parts is my strong
intuition has really guided methroughout my entire life, even
before I knew what it was orunderstood.
Yeah Right, and when I wasexperiencing postpartum
depression, I felt like thatintuition that I typically had
was so off and I couldn't relyon that part of me, that
(39:21):
unexplained part, that says whensomething feels off or not.
And you know, I talked about ita lot with my therapist and she
just had to keep reminding me,liz, but you did know, you knew
that this wasn't the rightdoctor.
You knew it wasn't failure tothrive because, fast forward, it
(39:42):
was a tongue and a lip tie thatmy son had.
Oh see, that's very different.
So different than failure tothrive.
And it took, I mean because inthe hospital when I was there
for my recovery, a differentpediatrician came in every day
and checked on him.
So we had four pediatricians, Ithink, see him over the days,
(40:04):
and then at the practice that weleft, there were three
different doctors, so we saw allthem.
So that's seven doctors Plus.
We ended up seeing two at a newpractice that we're at now.
Not a single one even mentionedthe possibility of a tongue tie
and maybe didn't even check,Didn't check, Didn't even
consider it.
Wow, it was all I mean thediagnoses we got again failure
(40:25):
to thrive.
One doctor said he was a lazyeater.
April Snow (40:29):
Oh, here we go with the labels yeah, a lazy eater
versus maybe thinking about whatare the other options.
This makes me so angry, I know.
Liz Gray (40:38):
I know I get really fired up when I talk about this
because and so I had to reallyfight to get the correct
diagnosis and ended up meetingwith a I'd already been seeing a
lactation consultant who itjust wasn't quite the right fit,
and so I ended up meeting witha new one who, right away, was
like I see some red flags forTugtai.
(41:01):
She said I want you to meet withthe speech therapist.
I'm also going to give you areferral to a pediatric dentist
and also a doctor who is apediatrician and a lactation
consultant, so she can help youkind of rule out what's going on
, cause it might be something onyour end, it might be your
son's end, or it might be bothRight, and I'm like, oh my gosh,
(41:22):
this is what I needed.
Like yeah, and we met with allthose people and, you know,
within a couple of weeks we hadthe tongue and lip tie procedure
, the frenectomy, and that day,either that day or the next day,
my son was actually like ableto turn his head while he
breastfed rather than you know,like contorting his body and
(41:46):
knee contort.
I mean, just the way that wewere both kind of having to move
our bodies in this reallyunnatural position was like.
I think back to him and I'mlike, oh, this poor little guy.
He was just so tight, his wholebody was so tight and all he
wanted to do was just likerelease and be free.
And then he was and then he was.
April Snow (42:08):
Oh, I'm just curious what's happened since that
procedure.
I mean, it's such a testamentto find the right providers.
Trust your instincts, advocatefor yourself.
So after that happens, I'mcurious what?
What's next?
Liz Gray (42:23):
Yeah, so at that point , when we met with that new
lactation consultant, he was, Ibelieve, the second percentile
for weight for his age.
So we were and he'd always beenreally small for his age, but
that, you know, secondpercentile we definitely were.
There were some concerns, right, we wanted to make sure that he
(42:44):
was gaining weight.
And after the tongue and liptie release, after me being
taught how to use the pump,having being, yeah, being fitted
correctly because all thesethings too, I couldn't.
I didn't have the brain powerto figure it.
(43:04):
Even though I tried, I couldn'tfigure this out on my own so to
have the resources and the toolsto actually be able to produce
enough milk to figure out how tofeed him.
We did drop, actually at onepoint below, like the percentile
chart, so he was not even on it, which again was very
concerning.
But we got back up and slowlycrept up and crept up, and crept
(43:28):
up and at his nine monthappointment he was in the 44th
percentile.
So amazing.
Yes, the boy loves to eat.
April Snow (43:38):
He's making up for lost time.
Liz Gray (43:40):
He is, but he is just like the sweetest, funniest
little ball of personality.
He is highly sensitive also likehis mama and he's just doing so
amazing.
We just came back from a tripto Mexico.
We flew with him and he was sogreat it, oh, I love it.
(44:00):
Yeah, things are really turningaround and and being a mom is
still very challenging.
There's no doubt about it.
It's really hard.
I'm still pumping for fivetimes a day to give him milk,
but it's also.
He was meant to be my well.
I'm still pumping for fivetimes a day to give him milk,
but it's also.
He was meant to be my well.
I'm trying to think of how Iwant to say this.
Sometimes I look at him and I'mjust like I'm so happy I'm your
(44:24):
mom, like I just am so luckythat I get to be your mom.
April Snow (44:27):
Yes, isn't it so beautiful?
Yeah, and you, I mean you, wentthrough all of this and here he
is.
What an incredible story, yeah,of perseverance and strength
and resilience, and both of youreally.
Yeah, I mean, he's a fighter.
Liz Gray (44:45):
He was stuck, I mean, birth was so long, it's because
his head was like lodged in aweird place and he doesn does
have kind of a big head.
So you know, yeah, but both ofus together have really, and my
husband my husband.
April Snow (45:01):
I'll include him in this.
Yes, of course.
Liz Gray (45:03):
You know, I think the three of us make a really great
little team you do you so?
April Snow (45:08):
do Well, Liz, if there's any message you can
leave.
Sensitive listeners who have,maybe are starting or going
through the infertility, goingthrough their infertility
journey or going through IVFwhat would you want to say to
them?
You're not alone.
Liz Gray (45:25):
And it's okay to need extra support.
It's okay to release peoplefrom your life, whether
permanently or temporarily, whoare able to be emotionally
supportive or supportive inother ways that you might need.
And to find people, whetherit's personally you know, having
(45:51):
friends, whether it's joiningan infertility group led by a
therapist, or whether it isfinding individual providers who
specialize in infertility andreally understand the nuances
and the language, and it's okayto fire a provider who doesn't
(46:11):
fit those high expectations thatyou have and that you really
deserve.
April Snow (46:17):
Yeah, that you should have.
Yeah, thank you.
It's such a good reminder thatcommunity is important here more
than ever, as you go throughthis, and I'll be sure to share
your resources in the show notes, your website, your social
media.
Also, you have your maternaltrauma support network for both
parents and providers, correct?
Liz Gray (46:41):
Yeah, so it's a national online directory that
connects women and birthingpeople to trauma informed
providers who specialize ininfertility, pregnancy,
postpartum and early parenthood.
April Snow (46:49):
Beautiful, such an important resource.
Well, liz, thank you so muchfor being here with us today.
Liz Gray (46:56):
Thank you so much, April, and your listeners.
April Snow (47:06):
Thanks so much for joining me and Liz for today's
conversation.
What I hope you'll remember isthat it's okay to ask questions
and trust your gut when choosingwhich medical providers to work
with.
If you're currentlyexperiencing infertility and
looking for resources andproviders, or you're a provider
yourself, you can check outLiz's trauma-informed maternal
(47:28):
health network at the link inthe show notes.
Use code podcast for 20% off anannual membership.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
(47:49):
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
Throughout the infertility journey, my
pregnancy, during the birth,postpartum, I've come across
providers who have done so muchharm, and it's not okay.
I want to empower other womenthat it's okay to say no, it's
okay to fire a provider for anyreason.
It's not just okay, but it'sessential to have a team of
(00:20):
people that you feel safe andcomfortable with, because
infertility and pregnancy arethe most vulnerable times that a
person might ever go through intheir life.
April Snow (00:40):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(01:02):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withLiz Gray about her journey of
infertility, the emotional andphysical impact of doing IVF as
a sensitive person, and hereventual transition into
parenthood.
Liz is a highly sensitiveperson, certified EMDR,
therapist and clinicalsupervisor, organizer, creator,
(01:24):
trauma survivor and infertilitywarrior.
She is the proud co-founder ofthe Trauma-Informed Maternal
Health Directory, which connectswomen to safe, highly qualified
trauma-informed providers whilethey navigate infertility,
pregnancy and new parenthood.
Liz lives outside of Chicago,illinois, with her husband,
golden Doodle, and eighth-monthmonth old son.
(01:45):
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(02:08):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Welcome Liz.
(02:32):
I'm so happy to have you hereon the podcast today.
Liz Gray (02:36):
I am so excited to be here, knowing you as a friend,
as a colleague yes.
April Snow (02:41):
I know we go way back and we've done other
projects together, colleague.
Yes, I know we go way back andwe've done other projects
together, and it's sweet to becoming together again in this
space and hearing more of yourpersonal story.
So before we get started,though, I always like to ask
people what your HSP discoverystory is, how and when you
realize that you're a highlysensitive person.
Liz Gray (02:59):
I wish I had a really exciting story to share with you
, or even knew the exact momentthat I found out that I was HSP.
But I don't remember exactly.
It was probably seven or eightyears ago, and my guess is that
I just stumbled across something, and it might've been your
Facebook group that you have forhighly sensitive therapists.
It might've been an article ora blog or a podcast.
(03:21):
Again, I don't remember theexact context, but what I do
remember is learning that therewas a name for what I'd
experienced my whole life, andso that aha moment of discovery
and feeling like, wow, this isactually.
I want this to be a piece of myidentity because it fits, and
(03:44):
that I kind of just took off andsince then that is.
You know, that's where I foundmy best friends and connected
with you.
April Snow (03:53):
Oh, I love that.
I want this to be a piece of myidentity.
That is so empowering.
It feels so good to hear it andthere is something about that
right having the context.
Oh, this is why I am the way Iam, and oftentimes the actual
moment kind of fades in thedistance, but just that feeling
(04:13):
of okay, I know myself is really, really powerful and, yeah,
it's so much community comes out.
I can't I just can't believehow many people I've connected
with since realizing that I'm anHSP, you being one of them.
It's incredible, from all overthe place.
Liz Gray (04:29):
Yeah, and I think for HSPs we need deep connection.
And looking back, realizingthat most of the people in my
life pre-HSP discovery are notsensitive, and I felt like
really didn't understand me.
April Snow (04:44):
Yeah, it's true.
You start to realize, oh, Ineed more people like myself in
my life and I think there's morespace to be fully sensitive and
just let those parts of you outand not be the caregiver all
the time, or the one who putsthemselves aside or the
empathetic one, however you wantto hold it.
So, yeah, a lot of things shiftafter that aha moment.
Liz Gray (05:07):
Yes, personally and professionally, because I
started working with primarilyhighly sensitive women in their
mid-twenties, thirties as atherapist, and so that has been
really amazing too, even thoughmy clients don't know a ton
about really my personal historyor even the ways in which I'm
(05:30):
highly sensitive.
But a lot of them say, Liz,just knowing that you're an HSP,
that's enough.
That's enough.
That feels really good.
April Snow (05:37):
Doesn't it?
It's like just being able to bewith.
There's something differentabout being with an HSP in
friendship, community andrelationship of any kind.
It's like I can just relax, Ican be myself and I get it
Exactly.
Liz Gray (05:50):
And it shows a different.
Yeah, it shows a differentlyfor all of us, but it's like
this common language.
April Snow (05:55):
Exactly you can settle into.
Well, speaking of your work, Iknow you have since kind of
switched your work based on yourpersonal experience with
infertility, with IVF.
So I'm curious, how has beingan HSP impacted that experience
as much as you can tell?
Liz Gray (06:12):
I would say it's impacted that in every single
way.
We probably don't even haveenough time for me to go into
all of it.
But when I was preparing to talkwith you today I was just I was
really reflecting on myexperience as an HSP.
So I actually went through theHSP test on Dr Lane's website
(06:33):
again just to re-acclimatemyself with some of the traits
and where I fit in and thenthinking about my infertility
journey and then theintersection between the two and
one of the things so I guess Ican kind of talk about in terms
of like physical, mental andemotional impacts that it had.
So I'll just go into each ofthose.
In terms of the physical impactthat IVF had on me is, first of
(06:58):
all I just want to name thatanyone going through infertility
is well, first of all a warrior, but it's going to look
different for every person, butthere are definitely some
commonalities.
So I would say the physicalimpact is essentially just for a
little bit of backgroundcontext, for a menstruating
(07:20):
woman, generally her ovaries arethe size of thumbs, so one egg
is released each month duringovulation and the cycle repeats
During IVF.
One of the phases is ovarianstimulation.
You might hear people say likeI'm doing stims that's kind of
(07:40):
the abbreviation that you know.
It's easier to say that andessentially we are doing
injections to ourselves.
I didn't know that ahead oftime, so it's just doing
injections and also takingmedication multiple ways.
I had to take medication fivedifferent ways, which I didn't
know about that either.
April Snow (08:00):
Can we pause there for a second?
Can you tell me what the fiveways are?
If you're comfortable, yeah ofcourse.
Liz Gray (08:06):
So there's the injections, and those are.
You know you often mix themedications yourself and then
either do the injectionsyourself or, if you have a
partner to do that.
I also know some people whothey and their partner were not
able to do it, so they wouldeither go to their clinic, but
that's a couple of times a day,every day, for it could be up to
(08:30):
, you know, two weeks whenyou're in this phase, or I do
know of some places thatactually like there's a nurse
who you can hire and have themcome to your house and do it.
April Snow (08:40):
But so there's the injections, there's oral pills,
there is like, for example, Ihad to put estrogen patches on
my stomach at times, and thenthere are like vaginal
suppositories wow, that's a lotof just thinking about the
amount of overwhelm that wouldcause the not just the tracking
(09:02):
of what to do, but also thephysical sensations of applying
medication in so many differentways.
It's a lot on a sensitive bodyanybody but sensitive body.
Liz Gray (09:13):
Yes, it is, and you know, for me, I think for my
sensitivity, like my musclestend to twitch, and so they were
twitching even more duringstims, I get itchy.
Sometimes I was even more itchy.
I feel bloated.
Sometimes I felt even morebloated, which, to go back to
what I was saying earlier,typically, you know, a woman's
ovaries are the size of thumbs.
(09:34):
By the end of stims, whenyou're ready for the egg
retrieval, ovaries are the sizeof tennis balls.
April Snow (09:39):
Wow, that's a big change.
Liz Gray (09:43):
Huge.
So you are so bloated and thenthere's a fear of, like I was
doing pole dancing well before Istarted and, and you know, I
had to stop because there's thisfear that like something could
get twisted or torn internally.
So there really is a lot ofwear and tear that happens on
(10:04):
the body and then there's nauseaand GI issues and just so much
and bruising from the injectionsand it's a lot.
April Snow (10:18):
Yeah, everything is disrupted and you kind of have
to halt also how you're takingcare of yourself, even Exactly.
Liz Gray (10:24):
Yeah, and it really just thinking about the schedule
like sometimes I had to takeoral pills three times a day and
do injections two to threetimes a day and they're
different.
So you have to be so organizedand scheduled and even me, who
is very organized, it's stillreally overwhelming.
(10:46):
And then there's the fear of ohmy gosh, if I mess up, if I
forget something, if Iaccidentally take it twice, or
what if I leave the medicationout.
I mean, these medications are$25,000.
April Snow (10:59):
Right.
The stakes are so high on everylevel financially, logistically
I mean, this is your shot to dothis.
Yeah, exactly.
Liz Gray (11:08):
So that I would say is kind of an overview of the
physical impacts.
You know, mentally, I think, asan HSP and also someone who is
an overthinker and anxious, Iwas always thinking three, five,
10 steps ahead.
April Snow (11:26):
Sure, you have to.
Liz Gray (11:27):
Yeah, and planning for ?
I mean, I was I was about tosay planning for the best and
worst case scenario.
I don't even think I was ableto plan for the best case
scenario.
I think I couldn't allow myselfto even think about being
pregnant, having a baby, becauseI was so tunnel vision.
I had to just get through thisphase.
April Snow (11:48):
You're just focusing that on applying the
medications going through theIVF process, but not able to
even let yourself think what'snext.
Exactly, it makes sense, yeah,yeah.
Liz Gray (11:58):
And what was really interesting is typically in my
relationship.
My husband is.
Much more of the interesting istypically in my relationship my
husband is much more of the Idon't want to say pessimist,
I'll say realist where he cankind of jump to a conclusion of
like oh, we're doomed you know,but he tends to be, and I'm much
more patient and optimistic andlike, okay, hold on, like let's
(12:23):
take a step back, let's pause.
And our roles kind of switchedwhen we were going for IVF and
that was really surprising toboth of us.
So, for example, I ended updoing three retrievals back to
back to back, and which was alot of my body too, I mean.
Some people take breaks, takelong breaks in between, but I
(12:44):
kind of was like well, we're onthis train, let's just keep
going.
Yep.
And after my first eggretrieval I believe I got 22
eggs, were, you know, taken- I'mactually going to look up my
stats.
So let's see the first retrieval.
(13:04):
Oh, actually, 20 eggs wereretrieved, which you find out
the day of.
So I woke up, I was put under,woke up and they say, hey, you
got 20 eggs.
So I'm thinking, oh my gosh,that's incredible.
That's a good number.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, the thing is well, it'salso like kind of the Goldilocks
, because too many.
I mean some people can have 30,60 eggs retrieved, and that is,
(13:26):
but oftentimes those eggs aren'tmature, so actually, that's you
know they can hyper stimulateor overstimulate, sorry, but
then there's some people thatdon't get enough and maybe only
get one, two or three eggs youknow that are retrieved.
So it's like it's just thisnumbers game.
So like 20 felt like a reallygood number, right.
(13:47):
And then the next day theycalled me and said of those 20,
12 of those are mature eggs andnine were fertilized.
April Snow (13:57):
Okay, so it quickly drops down.
You're less than half now ofwhat you thought you had.
Liz Gray (14:02):
Exactly.
And then you have to wait acouple of days until they call
it's blastocysts, that they saylike, hey, this is how many made
it to blast.
Out of the 20 eggs, only two ofmy embryos, so that's after the
egg and the sperm have beenfertilized.
Of those nine, two of them madeit to blast Wow.
(14:24):
And then we got ours testedeach time, which is Genetic
testing.
Genetic testing, and you haveto send the embryos out and it
can take a couple of weeks andit's not covered by insurance.
Right, a lot of this is out ofpocket, a lot of it, and I'll
get into the financial piecelater, and it's a couple, the
(14:45):
financial piece later, sure, andit's a couple thousand dollars
each time.
Wow, and so of those two, oneof them was a healthy embryo and
one was unhealthy.
April Snow (14:55):
Wow, so you go from 20 to.
What an emotional rollercoaster.
Liz Gray (14:59):
Such an emotional roller coaster, and I remember
the exact moment that we gotthat call.
I was in my bedroom and I wasjust devastated because here I
am, knowing that I was probablygoing to do multiple retrievals,
because my insurance allowed usto bank embryos, which means
you can basically do multiplerounds of retrievals and kind of
(15:21):
store your embryos, whereasother plans sometimes, or a
doctor or patient might decidetogether.
We'll do a retrieval and thenwe'll do the transfer, the
embryo transfer.
April Snow (15:32):
So either you transfer or you bank it.
Pretty much, yeah.
Liz Gray (15:35):
And then there's fresh transfers and frozen transfers.
I mean, there's so manydifferent variations.
It's a lot.
April Snow (15:42):
I mean there's thinking about overthinking.
There's so many ways that youcould just get frozen in this
process.
Liz Gray (15:49):
Totally, and it is so it's like literally learning a
new language.
It is so complicated andcomplex.
So we knew early on we weregoing to do a couple retrievals.
Our insurance allowed four ayear and so I kind of went in
saying I'm going to do four.
That's kind of where my mindwas, and I just remember getting
(16:10):
the phone call that only one ofthem was healthy and being
absolutely devastated and, ofcourse, thinking like, oh my
gosh, like what if we only getone or zero the next time?
April Snow (16:26):
Right, and this is a trend.
Liz Gray (16:28):
Exactly yeah, and my husband and I was just so amazed
by him.
He said Liz, this is so good.
It means that this is working.
I have faith in this process.
April Snow (16:40):
Wow, oh, what a bright light to come in and help
you see that Like, oh, this isactually.
There's still hope.
Yes, because we have onehealthy embryo.
Liz Gray (16:50):
Exactly, yeah, and I was like we only have one.
And he's like, but we have one,we have one yes.
And you know, it was just.
It was really helpful for me tokind of step out of the the
pity and sadness and to be ableto say, wow, okay, because we
(17:10):
had been given a 1% chance toconceive, naturally.
So really, if you think aboutit, it's pretty incredible that
we had this true embryo.
Yeah, it's a miracle, yeah, andI'll just really quickly.
So the second retrieval I had25 eggs that were retrieved and
then I don't have to go throughall the numbers, but we ended up
(17:31):
with six embryos that gottested and were viable.
Four of them were viable andthen one wasn't and one was when
we had to get retested.
Anyway, that ended up being anunhealthy one.
So four out of six of thoseended up being healthy.
Now let me also say that whatreally complicated this is that,
(17:52):
out of those five now embryosthat we had that were healthy,
all five were girls.
No way, and I had my heart seton a boy.
April Snow (18:02):
Okay, okay.
So there's still.
There's so many layers andpotential for disappointment
along the way.
Exactly, wow, okay.
Liz Gray (18:12):
And we had to decide are we going to do a third
retrieval before we knew whatthe results of the second
retrieval were Right Also, so itwas just.
It's such a just, this game ofwaiting and making decisions,
and parts of it are so fastfaster than like you have to
make a split second decisionright, and there are parts that
(18:32):
are so painfully slow that itfeels like time is just stopped.
April Snow (18:39):
Yes, this is.
I mean, this is high pressurefor anyone, but I'm just
thinking as an HSP who isliterally wired to process
slowly, to think about decisionsfor a really long time, who has
to kind of minimize stimulationphysically, emotionally,
mentally.
This is, you're puttingyourself through the ringer.
Liz Gray (18:58):
Yes, in every way physically, but also it's this
mental game that you have toplay and emotionally, just the
impact of having, you know, itwas five different ways that I
took medications, but it was intotal.
I took 17 different types ofmedications.
Wow, that's a lot, a lot.
And my doctor, who was fabulous, was very, I say, aggressive
(19:21):
with her treatment, meaning thatshe really pushed, you know, my
body to the limit because sheknew that I could get more.
April Snow (19:31):
Right, but at some point does that?
Yes, you could, but is it atsome point I don't want to, or
it's too much?
Even though physically I can,maybe, emotionally I can't.
Liz Gray (19:43):
I think.
For me it was almost like it'seither all or nothing.
April Snow (19:47):
Yeah, you have to keep going.
Liz Gray (19:49):
Yeah.
But, I also know that for a lotof people they need a slower
pace, they need a gentler courseof treatment, and what's funny
is like typically, I would bethat person who needs a lot of
time because, as you werementioning, like, I need a lot
of time to process and but alsomaybe there was a fear that if I
(20:09):
took a pause, I wouldn't beable to start up again.
April Snow (20:12):
Well, that too, it's just thinking about what you
already know about this process.
There's going to be such a deepresistance from your nervous
system next time, knowing justhow intense it is and depleting
it is.
So at this point it's like,well, it's better to keep going.
Liz Gray (20:28):
Yeah, and actually so there's a so there's so many
different procedures, butthere's something called duo
stim, which is essentially doingtwo egg retrievals in one cycle
, so not giving my body time toadjust after that egg retrieval
and like get my period and thenstart up again.
It's basically like a couple ofdays after you start the stims
(20:52):
again, just go right back intoit, Yep.
And so our plan after the firstretrieval actually was to go
right into the next one and doduo stim.
But I developed mild OHSS,which is when your ovaries hyper
overstimulate, and so I didactually have to give my body a
little bit of a rest, and when Isay a little bit of a rest, the
(21:15):
typical amount, you know like acouple extra days.
But my body was like nope, wecan't go right into it too much.
April Snow (21:21):
Yeah, sometimes your body will tell you the answer.
Liz Gray (21:24):
Exactly.
April Snow (21:26):
Throughout this.
I mean, we've talked about whyit could be harder as an HSP,
but is there any parts of beingsensitive that actually was
helpful during this process?
Liz Gray (21:34):
well, I think thinking things, you know, having a plan
a, b, c, um.
I think some of that wasdefinitely helpful at times I'm
not going to say all the time.
Probably one of the biggestpieces that was helpful is my
need for connection is so deepthat I ended up finding really
(21:59):
amazing providers who weretrauma-informed and sensitive
and who really guided methroughout the process.
April Snow (22:08):
Yeah, it seemed like that was a bolster throughout,
whether it be with your husband,whether it be with your doctor
saying you can do this, let'shelp you see the bigger picture
here, to help you keep going.
That's so important to have theright people around you, and I
mean at any time in life, butespecially when you're going
through something so vulnerableand high stakes.
(22:28):
That makes sense.
So, those relational gifts ofbeing sensitive, you pick the
right people I did, and maybehaving good intuition helps too.
I wonder, as an HSP, likeknowing like this person feels
right.
I wonder if that came in at all.
Liz Gray (22:45):
Yeah, and knowing when the person didn't feel right
also, yes, and part of thereason that and we'll get into
this at the end but part of thereason I created a new business
and formed a national directoryis because my first doctor,
before the one that I'm talkingabout, was terribly insensitive
(23:07):
and really activated my traumaand it was such an upsetting
experience that I went throughthat.
I, you know I tend to I don'tget angry very often, but when
there's an injustice and whenI'm personally affected by it,
that's when I tend to act and Iactually kind of love that
(23:28):
specific type of anger thatcomes up in me, because it's
like fire, it just feels like Ihave to do something about it.
And I think my sensitivityreally played into that, because
it was just this again, thispassion, this fire, and you know
it ended up getting me to whereI am now.
April Snow (23:52):
You know it ended up getting me to where I am now.
Yeah, it's so empowering anduseful because you know we're
emotionally impacted.
But then we can channel thatemotion into action and there's
no other choice.
Like I don't want other peopleto go through what I've went
through.
Liz Gray (24:03):
That's exactly what I've said since the beginning.
April Snow (24:05):
Right and I know well I imagine.
I don't know for sure, butthat's what helps spark you into
saying I'm going to help otherpeople find the right providers
because I don't want them to gothrough what I just went through
.
Liz Gray (24:16):
Yes, yeah, my pregnancy.
During the birth postpartum,I've come across providers who
have done so much harm and it'snot okay, first of all, but I
(24:36):
want to empower other women thatit's okay to say no, it's okay
to fire a provider for anyreason, it's okay to.
It's not just okay, but it'sessential to have a team of
people that you feel safe andcomfortable with, because
infertility and pregnancy, Ithink especially, are the most
vulnerable times that a personmight ever go through in their
(24:59):
life.
April Snow (25:00):
We are a very vulnerable population.
Absolutely, and it's okay tohave standards of who you want
to bring into that process withyou.
High standards, high standards,high standards.
Yes, exactly.
Yep, I want to talk aboutparenting, but before we do, I'd
love to pause on this point alittle bit.
Let's say someone is startingthe process of looking for a
(25:22):
provider.
What would you say is a big redflag to look for in a provider?
Liz Gray (25:29):
Oh, a red flag?
Okay, I thought you were goingto ask okay, what should they
look for?
So something that I starteddoing is actually doing a couple
of consultations and interviewswith providers before deciding
to work with them.
Smart and I mean, I will saythat to interview doctors at an
infertility clinic, you have tobe registered as a new patient.
(25:52):
So it is paperwork.
I mean it felt like I wassigning my life away just
filling out so many forms aboutmy history.
I mean, you know, essentially,think about when you're going to
a new doctor, but this is likesuper intense.
So I just know that it'sprobably going to be a process,
but I'd much rather someone gothrough and meet with the doctor
(26:15):
and decide this isn't right andto like go through and get
weeks, months in and realizethis isn't the right person and
then have to switch anyway,right?
So I think again.
Ok, I know I went to.
What should you do?
April Snow (26:31):
but with that being, said let's talk about both.
Yeah, yeah.
Liz Gray (26:34):
Yeah, I think there's a lot to learn though, during
those consultations.
Oh, and what I was going to sayis a red flag is if the
provider doesn't have an answerto the question like tell me how
you're trauma informed or tellme how you support patients
emotionally.
Yes, because that's somethingthat was, for me, personally,
(26:57):
very important was to find aprovider who understood the
nuances and the sensitivity ofworking with someone who was
going through infertility andthen pregnancy and had a history
of sexual trauma Like to me.
I needed to have that extradegree of sensitivity and I
didn't think there were too manywrong ways to answer that
(27:18):
question until I asked thequestion and the answers were
really telling and reallydisappointing, ranging from oh,
I don't know, I've never thoughtabout that Whoa?
Yep To the midwife who I endedup choosing, giving just such a
beautiful answer, which she gavespecific examples of how she
(27:40):
asked for consent and, you know,wants to know about my history.
And then she also said and Ilearned from my patients too,
and so I realized yep, exactly,she was collaborative, she
wanted to know from me also, andthat felt so safe.
And that was the answer Ididn't even know I was looking
for, but I was.
April Snow (28:02):
That's it.
You know when you feel safe.
Yeah, and you brought up a goodpoint, which is even if you
think you know the answer, askthe question anyway.
Just in case.
You said, I don't think thatthere would be a wrong answer to
these questions, but you foundout there was Not everyone's
trauma-informed, not everyone iscollaborative.
I think we have theseassumptions about providers that
(28:23):
this is how they should be, buta lot of times they're not.
We have to ask those questions,lettuce or not.
Liz Gray (28:28):
We have to ask those questions and what I found too,
with medical providersspecifically, is they can be a
fantastic medical doctor, yes,and the bedside manner may not
be so great.
And I think that's what can bereally challenging.
Is that conflict, thatdisconnect, when you get someone
who gives you really greatmedical care and they can do
(28:49):
harm, emotional harm.
April Snow (28:52):
Absolutely, they could be a very skilled medical
clinician.
But then, right, that emotionalpiece is just as important.
If they're not trauma-informed,if they're not client or
patient oriented, they could.
I mean, this is a veryvulnerable process, as you
shared.
You need someone who's going tofeel safe in that.
Yeah.
Liz Gray (29:12):
And speaking of that first reproductive
endocrinologist, the infertilitydoctor that we met with, she
was TikTok famous, I mean, sheis like very well known in the
field.
And she is again great at whatshe does.
But I felt like a number to herand to the clinic as a whole
(29:36):
and I think that's another pieceof especially going through
infertility as an HSP is.
We can read people really well.
You know when you're beingtreated well or not you know
when you're being kind ofshuffled around and like not
that I expect the red carpetrolled out for me but, I, expect
communication, I expect respect, and even the basics weren't
(29:59):
there.
April Snow (30:00):
Yeah, exactly, it's a good reminder.
You know when something's offas an HSP.
Oh yeah, trust it.
Just because someone has areally strong reputation or has
a really successful clinic, it'sokay if you choose something
that's less shiny, if it worksfor you and it feels safer and
more welcoming.
(30:20):
I mean, this is such animportant time to be picky, if
you can be.
Liz Gray (30:25):
Yeah, and there's a lot at stake and there's so much
trust that you have to put intoyour doctor who's really
guiding you and making a lot ofdecisions and, you know, using
their expertise, because this isall new and scary and yeah, so
it's just so important that youfind someone who you feel like
is really seeing you as a humanbeing and as a person, not just
(30:47):
as a number and someone to addto their, you know, stats of
positive pregnancy test Exactly,and this is personal.
April Snow (30:55):
Yeah, so you've gone through this IVF process and
I'm wondering if we can now talkabout what was the transition
like moving from that intoparenting and I know not
everyone gets to do that, but Iwonder if we could speak to that
process.
Yeah, hard.
Liz Gray (31:12):
It was very challenging and I think what
made it so hard for me is just acouple extenuating
circumstances.
One is having my birth planessentially ripped up in a
million different pieces andtossed out the window and lit on
(31:34):
fire and stopped on.
I mean all the things it'sheartbreaking.
Yeah, it was, and it didn't gothe way I planned.
You know, my plan was to I mean, I interviewed multiple
midwives.
I knew I wanted a midwiferather than an OBGYN, and so I,
you know, saw this midwifepractice throughout my entire
(31:55):
pregnancy.
I picked out there were threedifferent birthing suites.
I got to go and I chose themiddle one, like this is, you
know, birthing suite number two.
It's this beautiful room with abig tub, like I wanted to do a
water birth and I had to gettransferred to the hospital.
April Snow (32:12):
So all of this planning and I know you're such
an organized person and youprobably had this you get
settled into this version of it,right, Like this is what I'm
expecting, and then it just getsthrown out the window.
So hard as an HSP, hard ingeneral, also hard as an HSP
when we need more time forchange.
Liz Gray (32:31):
Exactly and well time I got, because the labor was 57
hours total 57 hours.
Liz 57 hours.
April Snow (32:42):
Wow.
Liz Gray (32:44):
I had no idea how high of a pain tolerance I had until
I went through that Sure,because 44 of those hours were
actually unmedicated.
April Snow (32:54):
Sure.
Until finally, almost two days,you're in labor with nothing to
manage the pain.
Exactly, yeah.
Liz Gray (33:01):
Minor.
You know, I was open toanything really, except I really
didn't want an epidural.
But once I finally agreed to doit, it was the biggest relief
and I was like why didn't I dothis earlier?
But no, I know why?
But still okay.
It wasn't so bad, but I thinkwhat was disappointing is it
wasn't my choice.
(33:22):
That's the hardest part, right,yeah, so you know.
And then eventually to have itwas never an emergency but it
definitely was an unexpectedC-section.
So to have that, to have areally, really insensitive
doctor who something I've alsostruggled with is with her she
(33:44):
provided fantastic medical careand her bedside manner was so I
want to say, laughable.
But there's nothing funny aboutit, but it's.
It's like you can't evenbelieve it how bad it is Exactly
.
And I felt it, my husband feltit, my doula felt it, I mean it
was.
It was pretty awful thetreatment that that we all
received.
(34:04):
But so, yeah, combination ofthis change in birth plan,
C-section slash, traumatic birthand then developing postpartum
depression made it really hardfor me to connect with my son
for a good three, four, almostfive months.
(34:25):
We had some major feeding issueswith him where I felt like all
I was doing was breastfeedinghim but he still wasn't gaining
his birth weight fast enough.
And so there's this added layerof our pediatrician basically
thinking that we were neglectingour child and not feeding him.
(34:45):
And it was um To be in such adaze from.
I mean, I was on very heavypainkillers after the C-section,
I was on barely any sleep, andthen to have a physician
(35:06):
basically say I think that youare not feeding your son and
they diagnosed him incorrectlyas failure to thrive.
It was devastating, I mean justthe scariest thing.
And to feel so unheard,unlisted to.
They weren't like anything thatmy husband and I were trying to
(35:29):
say or explain.
It was very much dismissed andit was literally like talking to
a wall and we did end upswitching providers and letting
that one know why.
But that was just another pieceof all of it that made it
really hard to connect.
April Snow (35:46):
Oh my gosh, I mean here you've already gone through
IVF, which I haven't personallyexperienced, but just having
supported clients through thatprocess and friends, it wreaks
havoc on your physical andemotional body, as you shared.
And now to then go through along, unexpected labor process
and then, on top of that, nowyou're getting accused of not
(36:07):
taking care of your child whenyou're working so incredibly
hard to do everything you canwhile you're going through
postpartum Yep.
And this is so difficult, likeand I can just imagine just the
feeling of what these doctorsare saying to you and not being
heard in this Like I'mstruggling.
Liz Gray (36:29):
Yeah, and what's really interesting, I think
about the first visit of thepediatrician, where I mean this
just gives you a sense of whereI was mentally we brought a
diaper bag.
All I had in there was thehospital paperwork.
I didn't have any diapers orwipes or anything, even though I
(36:49):
, like I knew that it made sense.
But also I'm like, oh, we livefive minutes away, he's not
going to need a diaper change.
April Snow (36:55):
Well was.
Liz Gray (36:57):
I wrong, and you know, and to be looked at like
judgmentally, like oh, youdidn't bring diapers, let me see
if we have any versus whatshould have happened was oh my
gosh, this happens all the time,whether or not it does you know
, or this is the first time thishas happened.
Of course.
(37:17):
You're exhausted, you'rehealing, I'm going to bring you
some diapers Actually, in fact,I'm going to bring you a couple
extra and you know, I think.
I needed to be nurtured andnormalized and in that moment
that was just one of manymoments where I felt so judged
and incompetent and already Iwas feeling that myself, I was
(37:40):
judging myself and I was feelinglike an incompetent parent.
But then to have other peopleessentially say that to you it's
not okay.
April Snow (37:50):
And you're so right that in that moment you needed
compassion.
Yeah, and you're so right thatin that moment you needed
compassion.
Yeah, I mean, they have a newmom in front of them who, I mean
they should know what new momsgo through.
They see it every single day,how much of a struggle that is.
I mean, even if you were fullyresourced mentally, emotionally,
(38:17):
physically you still might notknow to bring a diaper if you're
five minutes away.
Right, yeah, let's think aboutthis and have a little grace
instead of being critical andmaking you feel worse than you
already do.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, it justamazes me how many providers
don't have that bedside mannerwhen they're in the job of
caring for people and astherapists, it's so unfathomable
(38:39):
to me, but I know that they'rekind of in a different space and
they're just going through thephysical motions of care.
But I mean, it causes a lot ofharm.
I know we both have seen peopleon the other side of that.
Yeah, absolutely, and lived itpersonally as well.
Liz Gray (38:55):
Yeah, and one of the hardest parts is my strong
intuition has really guided methroughout my entire life, even
before I knew what it was orunderstood.
Yeah Right, and when I wasexperiencing postpartum
depression, I felt like thatintuition that I typically had
was so off and I couldn't relyon that part of me, that
(39:21):
unexplained part, that says whensomething feels off or not.
And you know, I talked about ita lot with my therapist and she
just had to keep reminding me,liz, but you did know, you knew
that this wasn't the rightdoctor.
You knew it wasn't failure tothrive because, fast forward, it
(39:42):
was a tongue and a lip tie thatmy son had.
Oh see, that's very different.
So different than failure tothrive.
And it took, I mean because inthe hospital when I was there
for my recovery, a differentpediatrician came in every day
and checked on him.
So we had four pediatricians, Ithink, see him over the days,
(40:04):
and then at the practice that weleft, there were three
different doctors, so we saw allthem.
So that's seven doctors Plus.
We ended up seeing two at a newpractice that we're at now.
Not a single one even mentionedthe possibility of a tongue tie
and maybe didn't even check,Didn't check, Didn't even
consider it.
Wow, it was all I mean thediagnoses we got again failure
(40:25):
to thrive.
One doctor said he was a lazyeater.
April Snow (40:29):
Oh, here we go with the labels yeah, a lazy eater
versus maybe thinking about whatare the other options.
This makes me so angry, I know.
Liz Gray (40:38):
I know I get really fired up when I talk about this
because and so I had to reallyfight to get the correct
diagnosis and ended up meetingwith a I'd already been seeing a
lactation consultant who itjust wasn't quite the right fit,
and so I ended up meeting witha new one who, right away, was
like I see some red flags forTugtai.
(41:01):
She said I want you to meet withthe speech therapist.
I'm also going to give you areferral to a pediatric dentist
and also a doctor who is apediatrician and a lactation
consultant, so she can help youkind of rule out what's going on
, cause it might be something onyour end, it might be your
son's end, or it might be bothRight, and I'm like, oh my gosh,
(41:22):
this is what I needed.
Like yeah, and we met with allthose people and, you know,
within a couple of weeks we hadthe tongue and lip tie procedure
, the frenectomy, and that day,either that day or the next day,
my son was actually like ableto turn his head while he
breastfed rather than you know,like contorting his body and
(41:46):
knee contort.
I mean, just the way that wewere both kind of having to move
our bodies in this reallyunnatural position was like.
I think back to him and I'mlike, oh, this poor little guy.
He was just so tight, his wholebody was so tight and all he
wanted to do was just likerelease and be free.
And then he was and then he was.
April Snow (42:08):
Oh, I'm just curious what's happened since that
procedure.
I mean, it's such a testamentto find the right providers.
Trust your instincts, advocatefor yourself.
So after that happens, I'mcurious what?
What's next?
Liz Gray (42:23):
Yeah, so at that point , when we met with that new
lactation consultant, he was, Ibelieve, the second percentile
for weight for his age.
So we were and he'd always beenreally small for his age, but
that, you know, secondpercentile we definitely were.
There were some concerns, right, we wanted to make sure that he
(42:44):
was gaining weight.
And after the tongue and liptie release, after me being
taught how to use the pump,having being, yeah, being fitted
correctly because all thesethings too, I couldn't.
I didn't have the brain powerto figure it.
(43:04):
Even though I tried, I couldn'tfigure this out on my own so to
have the resources and the toolsto actually be able to produce
enough milk to figure out how tofeed him.
We did drop, actually at onepoint below, like the percentile
chart, so he was not even on it, which again was very
concerning.
But we got back up and slowlycrept up and crept up, and crept
(43:28):
up and at his nine monthappointment he was in the 44th
percentile.
So amazing.
Yes, the boy loves to eat.
April Snow (43:38):
He's making up for lost time.
Liz Gray (43:40):
He is, but he is just like the sweetest, funniest
little ball of personality.
He is highly sensitive also likehis mama and he's just doing so
amazing.
We just came back from a tripto Mexico.
We flew with him and he was sogreat it, oh, I love it.
(44:00):
Yeah, things are really turningaround and and being a mom is
still very challenging.
There's no doubt about it.
It's really hard.
I'm still pumping for fivetimes a day to give him milk,
but it's also.
He was meant to be my well.
I'm still pumping for fivetimes a day to give him milk,
but it's also.
He was meant to be my well.
I'm trying to think of how Iwant to say this.
Sometimes I look at him and I'mjust like I'm so happy I'm your
(44:24):
mom, like I just am so luckythat I get to be your mom.
April Snow (44:27):
Yes, isn't it so beautiful?
Yeah, and you, I mean you, wentthrough all of this and here he
is.
What an incredible story, yeah,of perseverance and strength
and resilience, and both of youreally.
Yeah, I mean, he's a fighter.
Liz Gray (44:45):
He was stuck, I mean, birth was so long, it's because
his head was like lodged in aweird place and he doesn does
have kind of a big head.
So you know, yeah, but both ofus together have really, and my
husband my husband.
April Snow (45:01):
I'll include him in this.
Yes, of course.
Liz Gray (45:03):
You know, I think the three of us make a really great
little team you do you so?
April Snow (45:08):
do Well, Liz, if there's any message you can
leave.
Sensitive listeners who have,maybe are starting or going
through the infertility, goingthrough their infertility
journey or going through IVFwhat would you want to say to
them?
You're not alone.
Liz Gray (45:25):
And it's okay to need extra support.
It's okay to release peoplefrom your life, whether
permanently or temporarily, whoare able to be emotionally
supportive or supportive inother ways that you might need.
And to find people, whetherit's personally you know, having
(45:51):
friends, whether it's joiningan infertility group led by a
therapist, or whether it isfinding individual providers who
specialize in infertility andreally understand the nuances
and the language, and it's okayto fire a provider who doesn't
(46:11):
fit those high expectations thatyou have and that you really
deserve.
April Snow (46:17):
Yeah, that you should have.
Yeah, thank you.
It's such a good reminder thatcommunity is important here more
than ever, as you go throughthis, and I'll be sure to share
your resources in the show notes, your website, your social
media.
Also, you have your maternaltrauma support network for both
parents and providers, correct?
Liz Gray (46:41):
Yeah, so it's a national online directory that
connects women and birthingpeople to trauma informed
providers who specialize ininfertility, pregnancy,
postpartum and early parenthood.
April Snow (46:49):
Beautiful, such an important resource.
Well, liz, thank you so muchfor being here with us today.
Liz Gray (46:56):
Thank you so much, April, and your listeners.
April Snow (47:06):
Thanks so much for joining me and Liz for today's
conversation.
What I hope you'll remember isthat it's okay to ask questions
and trust your gut when choosingwhich medical providers to work
with.
If you're currentlyexperiencing infertility and
looking for resources andproviders, or you're a provider
yourself, you can check outLiz's trauma-informed maternal
(47:28):
health network at the link inthe show notes.
Use code podcast for 20% off anannual membership.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
(47:49):
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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