January 27, 2025 • 49 mins
Gaslight
Gradebook Categories
What is included in a grade?
Assessments
Gatekeep - Student Perceptions on Standards-Based Grading in the World Language Classroom by our own Bryan Smith!
History of SBG
SBG in Bryan’s Classes
What Kids Like, and What They Don’t
Girlboss
Clarity, Rubrics, Consistency
Helping Get Classwork and Homework Done
Change One Thing at a Time!
References
Webinar for Tumbao Bilingual Books’ newest book - We Celebrate Juneteenth Unidos - hosted by AC Quintero
Text us about how you’ve Gaslit, or Girlbossed your language classroom.
Email us at info@slayyypod.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
bill (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of SLA second
(00:04):
language acquisition foreveryone this week We're going
to be talking about standardsbased grading and we are lucky
enough to have our own residentexpert brian So, brian, could
you quickly?
Help us review the definition ofStandard based grading so we're
(00:24):
all on the same page here.
Bryan (00:26):
So the definition of standards based grading is using
a set of external criteria asthe basis of students grades.
So that may be your statestandards that may be, you know,
the actual world readinessstandards.
something that is kind of sayinglike this is what students
should be able to do.
It's clearly defined and it laysout your objectives and you're
(00:47):
only using the results ofassessments based on those
standards with clearlycommunicated goals and criteria
with the students for to formthe grades and not including
behavioral factors in studentsgrades.
And there are a lot of reasonsbehind that, which we'll get
into in a bit.
bill (01:03):
So with that in mind Some ways that I have gaslit myself
in my grading practices is Iknow in my heart that I should
be basing grades on whatstudents can do in relation to
Standards because within theworld language education world,
(01:25):
we have pretty clear categories,I guess, for our grades, we've
got the five C's, which is aneasy thing to start with.
So maybe you categorize yourgrade book by the five C's, the
compare communication, culture,comparison, connection, and
communities.
Maybe you go in a little bitmore specific and only focus on.
(01:49):
The communication standards anddivide your gradebook into
interpersonal communication,interpretive communication, and
presentational communication.
Some other people go to the fourskills, reading, writing,
listening, speaking.
And with all of those things inmind something that I've kind of
like ended up on iscomprehension and production as
(02:12):
my two categories for my grades.
Cause one, I can't do the mathof how to make sure that all of
them numbers like are the sameand even with like automatic.
Grade weighting in like alearning management system, like
Canvas, it still can like getuneven.
(02:33):
So like if I only have, if Ihave three categories or two
categories and it's 50 50, but Ionly have one grade in one
category, but four grades in theother one, that one assignment.
Is Say 50 percent of thestudents overall grade.
(02:53):
I So like public trying tofigure out how to not sure that
that's balanced throughout hasbeen a struggle for me.
And
Bryan (03:01):
citizens themselves.
And we want
bill (03:03):
I
Bryan (03:04):
that we do
bill (03:05):
want to make sure that, I mean,
Bryan (03:07):
for
bill (03:07):
the reason that people do.
Bryan (03:09):
And I think
bill (03:10):
is because
Bryan (03:11):
should be looking
bill (03:12):
communication includes listening and speaking.
Or writing and responding orsigning and responding with
science.
But so it's hard to like, justbreak that down into those two
categories for me, if I'm justusing my production and
comprehension categories.
But yeah, I think that's one waythat we gaslight ourselves is
(03:35):
like just Deciding, trying tofigure out what's best for the
gradebook, what's best forreporting.
student progress.
And yeah, so that's something Ithink about a lot.
I have done the comprehensionand production grade book
categories for the past coupleyears and it seems to be the one
(03:57):
that I most align with thethings that I do formally assess
in class.
So I don't know, what about you?
Have, how have your like gradebook categories or I don't know,
have your grade book categoriesevolved, I guess.
Bryan (04:12):
I think before I get into that, I actually want to ask you
a question, Bill.
when you said that you'reworried about balancing the
weights and like you get theexample of having like one
assessment in one category andlike four in another Can you
talk a little bit, does that,can you say a little bit about
why, like, what the issue inparticular with that is with
(04:34):
you?
Like,
bill (04:35):
Yeah.
Bryan (04:35):
are your concerns, the problems that that might cause
for students?
bill (04:38):
Yeah.
So I think that if, and I thinkthis happens in like first, like
people who do straight points aswell.
Like the first grade that youput in a total points grade book
is determining the grade at thatpoint.
And you have to have more gradesfor that to have less of a, for
(05:01):
that less of an effect if Idon't have anything in the grade
book, but yeah.
Only 10 points are available andyou get six out of 10 on
whatever it is.
Then you're stuck with that sixout of 10 until the next time we
get a grade with the part aboutbalancing just like two
(05:22):
categories for me is I have tolike I don't think I have a
solid answer on how much I thinka single assignment should be
worth.
in a student's overall grade.
So at my at a previous schoolthat I worked at we weren't
allowed to have anything, anyone assignment be worth more
(05:44):
than 10 percent of a student'soverall grade.
And which more or less madesense to me, like a grading
period is about 10 weeks.
So like an assignment per week,if you've got 10 assignments,
each one's worth 10 percent ofyour overall grade.
So that's kind of like works forme.
So I guess that's just like howmuch of their grade should be
(06:07):
from like what amount of time,maybe.
Bryan (06:10):
So you basically believe that a grade should represent,
like, a whole picture of asemester from beginning to end,
including performances at thebeginning, middle, and end?
bill (06:21):
I think so.
I think I want the score to beas accurate as possible for as
long as possible.
So I might have a really goodread on students reading or
listening comprehension becauseI've assessed that formally more
and that's going to becommunicated in, or at least
that's how I think they can becommunicated in a grade book.
(06:44):
But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I, you, you're, you're askingquestions to make me think about
it even more than or more than Ihave.
Bryan (06:54):
Well yeah, that is what I spend a huge amount of time
trying to get people to do.
So we're, one of the reasonswe're talking about this is
because I, this is the topic ofmy master's thesis.
I wrote my thesis on studentperspectives on standards based
grading in the world languageclassroom.
And I go really into lot of thedifferent trains of thought that
(07:17):
have existed in terms of What isa grade?
What does it mean?
How do we communicate it?
What is a grade in worldlanguage?
And, you know, what are thebenefits, consequences of how we
talk about grades in worldlanguage and through the lens of
standard space grading.
So it's really interesting tohear from another teacher and
like what their perspectivesare, because I've been on a
really long journey with thisand I'm pretty comfortable, I'd
(07:40):
say maybe 95 percent comfortablewith where I'm at right now.
But Yeah, there's always,there's always been and there
always will be a diversity ofperspectives.
But I just think that there area few, like, key we can ask
ourselves when we're wondering,like, what we should do with our
own particular gradebooks.
What I I guess I can start with,like, where I started.
(08:02):
So I think, you know, like manyteachers, I replicated what
existed when I was in schoolwhen I first started teaching.
So we had like the test categoryand the homework category and
the project category.
And I used that for a few yearsand you know, nobody ever really
questioned it because that'swhat everyone was so used to.
But then I, you know I thinkthere was A new teacher at my
(08:25):
school who came in the door withstairs based grading like they
had already used it in theirprevious teaching assignment.
And so I got really curiousabout it because a lot of the
things that they were talkingabout, like I was like, what?
Like, I've never thought of itthat way.
Or like, that's just completelydifferent from anything I've
seen before.
(08:46):
So I got really intrigued andlearn to learn some more about
it.
But I was just reallyintimidated at first because
because it was such a shift Fromwhat I've done before.
So it took me a few more yearsto actually start implementing
it.
Presentational communicationshould be we did actually use
the, the names of the differentmodes of communication, but I
think that there are just someconcepts behind it that I didn't
(09:08):
quite grasp yet.
So like a, like, differentphases of my implementation of
it.
And so now I'm fully all the wayin SPG.
My grade book, at my currentschool, we still use primarily,
well, only the communicationstandard, but within the three
different modes.
So interpretive, interpersonal,presentational.
And then we have like kind of another category for other things.
(09:32):
And so because I believe that agrade should represent what a
student knows and is able to doafter, at the end of a learning
sequence, because, you know,when you out their transcript,
you're saying like, this is whatthe student learned from me,
right?
For pretty much any class, ifyou ask teachers, that's what
they would probably say.
They think their grades shouldrepresent, although they might
(09:53):
say that there are other thingswithin it, you know, that they
value and may be part of it, butFor me, because of that their
final performance in thissemester I do performance based
assessments constitutes 90percent of their grade and 10
percent is reserved for theother that we do and all the
teachers in my department, weuse the same waiting for each of
the levels and the percentagesshift a little bit, depending on
(10:17):
the level.
So, for example, in levels oneand two, interpretive
communication is about.
40 percent of their grades.
Because we believe that it'sreally important for students to
comprehend the input thatthey're receiving.
That's where they will get thewhat they need to build the
system of language in order todevelop their proficiency.
And then at the end of theprogram, then the AP level
(10:40):
presentational is the largestportion of it, because that's
when their production skills arethings that they really need to
work on.
Although all students, We mustnot forget that all students
need comprehensible input andinteraction in the language.
It never stops being important,but there are other skills that
students want to develop more asyou go up in those proficiency
(11:02):
levels.
that's kind of where I'm at.
It gets a bit more complex thanthat, but that's just a broad
overview of what I'm doing rightnow.
Ben, what's going on with you?
FishRod (11:12):
Yeah, my great book is a mess and always has been a
mess will continue for a whileto be a mess as I'm like, still
trying to figure this out formyself.
When I started teaching, I hadbeen through a program that had
taught me about the use ofrubrics and talking clarity with
like very clear success criteriaand, and lesson planning and all
that sort of stuff.
and then I landed in a districtthat was actually integrating
(11:35):
standards based grading into thesecondary level and was in year
question mark of that.
I don't know.
I never received any trainingabout it which I think was part
of the problem for me and maybe,you know, previewing the.
The gatekeep section is like,yeah, if you don't know what it
is, then it is confusing,intimidating, and can lead to
stress and anxiety.
What I was finding myself doingwas, first of all, my district,
(11:58):
I think, had too many powerstandards.
I think for standards basedgrading, you need to really hone
in on, like, what are thesestandards, the most important
things.
We had actual communicationstandards, I believe, thrown in
there.
But then there were also like,common core standards.
in as well, which I think crosscurricularly is like, yeah, it's
good to collaborate with yourcolleagues in language arts.
(12:21):
We do, you know, we're in thesame of stuff, you know, and
that they want to, there to bemore cross curricular
connections.
In reality, again, no trainingon that.
I was not trained as an ELAteacher.
Was kind of like, okay, like I'dcame from a, you know from
learning in a pretty traditionalway and then, you know, getting
more proficiency oriented stuffin college.
And then was suddenly inStanford's grading world with no
(12:43):
support.
So that I think the clarity andtraining would have helped me a
lot.
And then I moved to a districtthat has a traditional grade
book.
And it was kind of up to me tochoose.
And I also have been differentlyby level and using the modes of
communication for my grade bookcategories.
So as it stands right now, Iactually have interpretive
reading and listening separatedout and weighted pretty heavily
(13:07):
each.
And then interpersonal.
then presentational, and thoseare just kind of all together
because I didn't, I wasn't doingenough interpersonal writing to
make that worth its owncategory.
And then presentational, I wasnot doing tons of anyways
because the approach I wasusing.
And then I kind of added on inrecent years Fifth, I guess
would be fifth category that isreflection which I kind of use
(13:28):
as a catch all to, you know,writing in English or thinking
about culture, thinking about,you know their own progress,
sort of metacognition stuff thatdoesn't quite fit into the, the
purview of, you know, You know,language use but more like
reflection on the, the process Iput into kind of a separate
category.
And I've been pretty contentwith that kind of layout for now
and kind of like you, Brian, mylower levels, I want to say, I
(13:51):
think my level one, twointerpretive categories together
add up to 70 percent and itmight be like 10 percent each
for presentational.
Interpersonal and thenreflection, but then it tilts
gradually because I was teachingto an AP program.
By the end, it was 22.
5 percent for each of thosemodes, because that roughly
reflects the kind of modes onthe AP exam is that, you know,
(14:13):
22.
5 percent of the grade is areading grade.
And then there's the listeningand reading is 22.
5%.
Well, I guess in that test is25%.
But in my grade, you know, allthat being said, with a still a
10 percent reflection categoryon top.
But I find like I have beenreckoning with myself about how
I use grades and what theyactually communicate and
reflecting on the need forbetter assessment practices and
(14:35):
myself.
Like, what is, you know, what amI counting as assessment?
What is just like a randompiddly little assignment?
and I have been using kind ofthe great book recently.
And putting formatives in whichI know is like kind of like a
like maybe don't do that butputting them in for like one
point where like a summative isworth and it's a hundred points.
So it has a hopefully minoreffect on the actual grade, but
(14:57):
also helps me keep track betterof what students have done and
not done as a way ofcommunicating that with them and
their families.
You know, to indicate like, Oh,so and so is not doing
classwork.
The evidence I have of that isall these like missing things
that show up in the grade bookthat we all have access to.
And I kind of feel okay withthat now, but I think.
I think I'm, I'm on a quest forbetter assessments for myself
(15:18):
and better clarity as to likewhat the preparation for the
assessment looks like studentsall having the same rubrics.
I've been getting better.
My presentational rubrics arevery uniform now I'm kind of
like in a swamp mire of questionmarks for myself presently and
then interpretive.
I feel pretty comfortable withmy rubric.
But so for me, all that beingsaid thank you for hearing my
life story is I.
(15:39):
I'm interested in the, in thetenets of standards based
grading, and I have not quite,made it work for myself in a way
that I feel like 100 percentconfident behind.
So I was happy to read yourstudy, Brian to learn more just
about standards based grading ingeneral, but then also see kind
of the effects that it had.
Bryan (15:56):
It's great.
Yeah, I also, my, my like wiggleroom category is primarily a
reflection for most of my, I doactually count, like, housework,
homework assignments for mymiddle school class, just
because I found over the yearsthat they're just not at the
metacognitive level to be ableto not have that kind of thing
graded.
(16:16):
So I make an exception for them,but the high schoolers, yeah, I
actually don't.
The individual assignments arenot part of their grade
calculation, but as I willdiscuss later, that does not
mean it doesn't affect theirgrade.
Yes.
bill (16:31):
So, So, one thing that I had thought about, like, with
that, like, extra category,like, I also have one of those.
I just call it classwork and,you know use the vocabulary.
Students are familiar with andyeah, everything else gets
thrown in there.
Nothing, that's all for metypically just like completion
(16:52):
stuff because I want you to doit on your own, on your own, but
we're going to review ittogether.
So I'm going to collect it andlike put in a couple points for
you to show that you are doingthe things that I'm asking.
And hopefully listening, well,doing the things that I'm as
that I am saying will bebeneficial for your learn
(17:15):
overall learning and whatever.
Like, this isn't a waste of timeso make sure you're doing it,
and I know points motivate you.
And, but at one point, I hadthought about using that extra
category as maybe like, Theother four C's and using it as
like a reflection portfolio.
I never looked any more intothat, but like, that's
(17:38):
definitely like I thought that Ihad because a lot like one, it's
hard to grade like culturalunderstandings, but unless
you've got like concrete facts,but what actual has said in like
their interculturalcommunication, reflection and
stuff is like, it's okay to useL1 in that for that stuff.
So.
(17:59):
Yeah, why don't I just havethem, like, reflect on the
stuff, the cultural things thatwe're doing in class, and then,
like, maybe I, like, assessingthat could be assessing the
reflection could be something,like, shows thoughtful
comparison, something.
Bryan (18:17):
Yeah.
I'm pretty much doing that.
Like, that's so my extracategories, reflection, and they
also have a language andcultural journal that they keep
throughout the semester.
I will talk about that more whenwe get to girl busing.
But I just wanted to reflect onone more gaslight that I did.
I did do one year where I didnot like classic homework, like
(18:38):
did not affect their grades atall in any way.
I'm It was a disaster.
I really tried to do my best.
And I learned a lot from it.
And like I said, it stilldoesn't technically directly
affect their grade.
But there's, I've got somestrategies to make it work
better.
And I feel a lot better about itnow.
So,
FishRod (18:58):
Where students were just not doing the homework,
right?
Bryan (19:01):
they
FishRod (19:01):
like, yeah.
Tell
Bryan (19:03):
part of that goes is connected to just being
comfortable with the idea ofstandard space grading and like
understanding like what it meansand why teachers are doing it
and like all those things.
And so that does take a whilefor students and their families
and the school community to getused to.
So the first year that youimplement things, it might be a
(19:26):
rough transition period.
But I just recommend that peoplehold on to.
something that they value and becomfortable changing at least
one thing.
You don't have to throw thewhole baby out with the
bathwater right away, althoughyou can just be prepared for, I
don't know, getting splashedwhen you do that.
FishRod (19:43):
Us about the study, Brian.
Bryan (19:45):
So I'm opening the gates for you.
Feel free to download the PDF ofmy thesis.
Please don't print it out.
But, you know,
FishRod (19:52):
This is a, this is a direct attack.
I printed it out.
I read everything on paper.
I'm sorry everyone.
I'm sorry the environment.
I'm sorry the world.
Bryan (19:58):
I should have put that, like, message people sometimes
have in their email, like,please consider the environment
before printing this message,like, on the first page.
But anyway.
So, as I said, the title isStudent Perspectives on Standard
Space Grading in the WorldLanguage Classroom.
So, in reviewing literature onstandard space grading, there is
basically nothing published.
(20:19):
There was nothing published inthe year of 2023 to 2024 on
world language specifically.
And there was to very fewstudies were published included
student voices.
Most of the studies talked aboutteacher perspectives,
administrative perspectives.
Sometimes they would get intofamily perspectives, but there
wasn't a lot on studentperspectives.
(20:40):
So I thought that was somethingimportant to add to the
literature.
And so I conducted a mixedmethods case study with my own
students as participants.
There are pros and cons to doingthat, but the pro is it's easy
for a teacher to do that becauseyou have direct access to your
own students and you can reflecton things that you've tried and
(21:03):
everything has greater contextversus if you observe at a
different school, for example,you might have.
Fewer threats to reliability dueto pressures that students might
feel to say what they think youwant to say.
But at the same time, it's likeyou don't really know what's
been going on in that classroomwith those students, with that
(21:25):
teacher.
So having her being in it is areally a really valuable lens to
take.
The actual study itself involveda survey that student, an
anonymous survey that studentstook and also focus groups group
interviews.
So I, you know, as part of mymaster's thesis, I implemented
(21:46):
this I let students and theirparents know about it.
They had to get permission slipsformed for parents to give their
consent and everything.
you know, advertised it as like,Hey, come at lunch.
Like, We'll talk about thisstudy and, I don't know, give
you some French snacks orsomething.
To get them all recruited andbuzzed about wanting to
participate it was voluntary ofcourse.
(22:08):
So standards based gradingemerged as an alternative
grading practice in about the90s to early 2000s.
Like, people started talkingabout it in the 1990s and, you
know, started implementing it inearnest in the early 2000s
because there were a lot ofissues that have been identified
with traditional gradingpractices.
(22:30):
One of those issues, forexample, if you look at the
typical 100 point grading scalewhere, you know, like 100 to 90
something is an A and like 80something is a B in those
grading scales.
to get an F that starts at like60 percent to 59 percent, and if
you like drew a circle and like,you know, portioned out
(22:53):
percentage of the circle likevisually looked at it, you would
see that like over half of theentire scale is based on
failure.
There's a lot greateropportunity for students to fail
using that kind of calculationthan there are for students to
be successful.
and people have found issue withthat.
(23:13):
also the idea of an omnibusgrade, which is having one
measure, such as a letter gradeor a number on the percentage
scale, represent a huge varietyof different things.
So as I mentioned in thebeginning, traditional grades
will include tests, quizzes,projects, homework, classwork.
(23:35):
Participation some people evengrade like coming to class on
time or not being in class,things like that.
And that really starts to muddythe meaning of like, okay, well,
what does this A, what does thisB, what does this C really mean?
Especially if you are someonewho has no contact, like you
Don't know who this teacher is.
Don't know what they did.
You're reviewing theirtranscript or something.
(23:57):
You have no idea what has goneinto that a what has gone into
that beat.
So yeah, that's an area ofconcern where having clear
established criteria based onexternal standards that define,
like again, what students shouldbe doing should be able to do
what they're being assessed onvery clearly.
And having that be the basis ofthe grade.
(24:19):
That's why that came about.
There's also a huge lens onequity because as we know
students who are, who have beenhistorically disadvantaged in
schools a lot of Where thatcomes from are the traditional
grading practices.
So students who working tosupport their family have to
watch younger siblings becausetheir parents aren't at home,
(24:40):
may not have a lot of time to dohomework when they go home
versus students who do not haveto think about that kind of
thing.
And maybe you have parents whoare highly educated and can help
them with their homework.
They do not.
You know, they're going to havemore success completing homework
assignments and also just theidea of kind of walking in the
door with skills alreadypossessed.
(25:01):
So if you had the opportunityto, I don't know, attend an
immersion school or somethinglike that before starting the
class, you are going to have aneasier time than someone who
didn't have that opportunity.
So there's just a lot ofdifferent factors that go into
why basing a grade on What hasbeen taught and assessed in the
(25:22):
classroom?
And also, I think personally,that's related to why I wait so
heavily the final assessment,because, you know it gives those
students who didn't walk in thedoor with skills already a
chance to actually just developthose skills and then finally
display them.
So I don't want students to bepunished for poor early
(25:43):
performance when I when I thinkmost teachers are like the
traditional system is to averageall of the scores throughout the
semester throughout the year.
And the effect of that is that.
Students who start out at aSprint will maintain that pace
in front of everyone else theentire time because they got an
A on the first test, then theygot a B on the next one versus
(26:05):
someone who got a D on the firsttest, and then a C.
And so what I found in the pastis that students who were
already starting out strong kindof felt like, eh, you know, I
know my grade is safe, so Idon't really have to put in that
much effort towards the end ofthe semester.
And they kind of check outbecause they know that they
don't really have to pass thefinal exam or whatever.
(26:25):
And then I saw students whoreally, really put in the
effort.
They came in for extra help.
They, you know, you know, didall that they could to improve
their grades, and they got amarvelous grade on the final,
but because of those earlierpoor grades that affected the
final grade that they eventuallyearned on their transcript.
So This is an idea to addresssome of those concerns.
(26:46):
So, as I mentioned my system isincluding the, well, okay, I
guess a better way to explain itis that when students take an
assessment, I put every, youknow, all the scores into the
gradebook, and then when theytake the next one, I replace
them.
So it's like, they see how theydid on this one my gradebook is
set up as the rubric is, so eachLike assignment is really a
(27:10):
criterion on the rubric so theycan them and their parents can
look and see what areas are theystrong in what areas do they
need improvement on?
And then, you know, the nexttime.
It's, you know, the gradesupdated to show where they
currently are at because I thinkit's important for grades to
show, to get accurateinformation on students current
progress.
And I do still keep the scoresfrom the previous ones, but it's
(27:34):
just like, it's in a like zerocategory.
So like all the rubrics andthings are in there so they can
see how they've done over time.
And also through my learningmanagement system, I've got a
way, like there is a anintentional standards gradebook
so students can actually liketrack each of their, you know,
their performance on each of thestandards like in a visual way
that I think is helpful forthem.
(27:55):
So that's kind of the systemthat I'm using and it is very
different to certainly what theteacher I replaced did and what
many other teachers at mycurrent school do.
But we do have a lot of teachersin the math and science
departments that usestandardized grading at my
school.
So it's not like a completelyforeign concept to them, which I
think helped a lot with ourimplementation.
bill (28:16):
So we use canvas at my school and there is the.
The mastery grade book orlearning mastery grade book,
which is like, they call themoutcomes, but you put in all of
the different standards forgotthe word you put in all the
standards and then in eachassignment, you attach it to one
of them.
So no matter what it is nomatter what the assignment is,
(28:36):
so I guess you couldtheoretically attach it to do
different outcomes.
But I don't understand becausethis is like my problem all
together with the whole thing ofgrading is like, I don't know
how to do the numbers.
So like it gives all thesedifferent options.
Like, do you want to do adecaying average?
Do you want to do overall?
And like, I don't know what anyof those, how any of those math
(28:58):
things would work out so that Icould figure out whether or not
it is an appropriate tool touse.
Silence.
Silence.
(29:24):
Silence.
Bryan (29:34):
called mastery.
And so I put in a score out of 4because I grade things on the 4
point scale for each assessment.
And those are the, Quote unquoteassignments that I attached the
standards to.
So that's why when they lookedat the mastery tab, they can
track their progress on thestandards, but then there's
other, you know, the actualgrade calculation happens in the
(29:56):
other.
So it's kind of hard to talkabout just with words and not
seeing what it looks like, but Ifound a solution for that.
That works for me and it mightwork for others.
So, yeah.
so this being kind of thebackground of the study my
questionnaire that studentsfilled out was really just based
on their experiences.
So do you like standards basedgrading?
(30:19):
Does it feel like an appropriateway to measure your learning?
In general, in this class, inother classes do you feel that
you understand?
strengths and weaknesses betterusing it.
Do you think other classesshould implement standards based
grading, things like that, andthe results of that, just
(30:40):
quickly looking of graphs I'vegot here.
So I, I, I broke.
the results down into groupingsby grade level and gender
because that's where thedifferences started to show up.
and what I found was thatstudents who were younger and
also students who were new tothe school had a much more
(31:02):
positive opinion of standardspace grading because they
didn't really know anything elseversus the older students who
had been used to kind of the waythings had been.
at the school before I startedchanging things had the most
negative views on it, whichmakes sense if you think about
it, you know walking intosomething for the first time
(31:22):
versus, you know, You know, thedouble, you know, I guess from
the student perspective and thenfor some reason, male students
seem to like it a little bitbetter than female students.
I don't know what the reasonsfor that could be.
And I also, like I said,conducted focus group interviews
with groups of students thatcontained, mix of different
grade levels and genders and allthat.
(31:44):
And they had some reallyinteresting things to say.
So, for example, a lot of themcompared my system with the
standard space grading system inmath where I guess the way it
works with the math contentstandards is like, you know how
to divide, check, you know howto multiply, multiply, check.
And so it's just like reallylike very content based, like,
(32:06):
Topic that topics differenttopics that would be covered
throughout the year, and itseems that when students
demonstrate mastery of that orskill or whatever it is when
it's taught, they're like good.
It goes in their gradebook, andit cannot go if they have
mastered it.
The grade for that cannot drop.
So they feel that.
(32:26):
more at ease, I guess, becausethey have that idea of like,
well I've mastered like eightout of the 10 standards.
And so there's only two left forthe final.
And so I'm not that worriedabout it essentially.
And so they also talked aboutthe benefits that they saw with
my system.
They really like that havingeverything broken down by skill
(32:47):
is It provides more clarity forthem in terms of knowing what
they need to improve on.
And it's a lot better than justhaving, like, test category B,
you know, because that doesn'tnecessarily help them know what
they're good at and what they,you know, need to work on.
And then overall, for the mostpart students said that they
felt like not includingclasswork and homework in their
(33:09):
grade increased theirprocrastination.
And that they felt more anxietyover the final because it's such
a huge part.
I mean, it's 90 percent of theirgrade.
although students did comment onkind of.
know, getting used to thesystem.
Like, definitely the first yearwas a little scary for them
because it was so different.
(33:30):
But like the second year ofimplementation, some of them
said, like, I kind of figuredout, you know, what I need to do
to be successful.
And so I think it's reallyimportant to just keep that in
mind.
If you are implementing standardspace grading that just initial
reactions do not necessarily,they don't necessarily that what
(33:52):
you're doing is or wrong, it'sjust that humans tend to react
to new and different things,especially something that is so
emotionally charged like grades.
I don't know, they can havestrong reactions to those and
it's just the communicationabout what you're doing and why
and just being very open andtransparent about everything is
(34:14):
Super important for that.
So yeah that was just kind of aglimpse into some of the results
that I got.
and then just going into a bitmore of like, what, what does it
all mean?
You know students kind of someof them, one, one finding that I
thought was pretty interestingis that they, they seem to think
that standard space grading wasparticularly good.
(34:36):
The ones who had positiveopinions, I was particularly
good for humanities class, likeworld language, because they're
like, you know, it's not justabout numbers.
It's not like getting an averageon, you know, math tests or
whatever.
It's about learning cumulative,because your proficiency
development is something thatdevelops over time.
And They thought thattraditional grading has some
(34:59):
advantages for them as studentsthat were taken away by
standards based grading.
And again, just a reminder thatthis is the student perspective
on it.
So they believe that averagingtheir grades recognizes their
effort over time.
They believed that having a 100point scale increased precision
in grading, although there isn'tmuch evidence to support that
(35:19):
that's actually true.
If you take two essays and putthem in front of English
teachers and say, which one isthe 87 percent and which one is
the 86 percent, they're not, noteacher, no two teachers are
going to give the same answer.
So, The hundred point scale isan illusion of precision, but
they don't necessarily knowthat.
And they also commented on thebenefit of, like, kind of
bargaining with their teachers,like, hey, I got a 97.
(35:43):
5, why not 98%?
And I guess that works for them.
I don't know.
But, you know, I don't, I mean,Everything is just based on
rubrics and performance.
And so you can't really even dothat in my grading system.
and it may just be that studentswho prefer traditional systems,
especially at a quote unquotehigh performing school, like the
(36:03):
one that I teach at, might havesome cultural Alignment with the
culture that is behind thetraditional system, which would
be, you know white, upper middleclass, highly educated, like
having that sort of backgroundwhere I think a lot of the, I
don't know, initial, where a lotof this, I guess, the
(36:24):
traditional system came frompeople who had similar
backgrounds.
And so.
The values that were instilledin them in terms of like what
they need to do in the classroommight or how they need to even
behave in the classroom becausewe know that students who have
like kind of a cultural mismatchwith their teacher certain
behaviors might be seen as, youknow.
being lazy or beingargumentative or something like
(36:46):
that.
But, you know there's just, youjust always have to remember
that there's a cultural lens toeverything.
And so some students might havebenefits by being in alignment
with that.
FishRod (36:57):
I think that also, I mean, it just reveals to that
how much of grading sometimesboils down to mind reading, like
expecting students to try tolike figure out what a teacher
likes.
I'm thinking of like a horrorstory.
One of my students told me inthe past that was like, I was
supposed to represent what Ilearned about chemical
properties or something in somesort of quote creative way.
And I got marched down on thecreativity aspect of it.
(37:20):
I was like, you're in a scienceclass.
You showed you're learning aboutthe science and the science
class.
Like, isn't that the standard?
And they were like, I similarlydon't understand what's going
on.
But, but that requires a levelof, like, understanding of what
the teacher thinks, quote,creativity is an apparent lack
of clarity about what that is.
And then obviously, You can'tmeet the standard if you don't
(37:40):
know what it is, right?
Like you can't, there's no way.
And so, yeah, that's, I thinkthe removing those aspects of
like, what if I just talk to theteacher one more time and annoy
them into the thing where it'slike, I don't know, if you have
a students based system, youcould just be like, let's look
at your assessment.
You did this, the end,
Bryan (37:58):
so I actually do want to share.
I had the grade bargainingconversation while having
standardized grading, and I wantto give these kids credit
because they actually did awonderful job.
I still said no, but they did awonderful job at attempting to
convince me because I was like,okay, we can have a meeting.
We can talk about your grade.
(38:18):
If you can show me based on therubrics, how your performance
matches the higher level.
And so they made a PowerPointpresentation in which they
included samples of their workand, you know, the different
performance levels on therubric.
And they tried to, you know,argue their case.
Perhaps one of them will be afuture lawyer.
(38:41):
I mean, I'm proud that they didthat, but it's still just, it
didn't quite, it didn't, itdidn't make the mark.
They
FishRod (38:47):
ultimately, that's what grading.
That's what the hard part is,like, communicating this to
young people is that, like,Okay.
We know these performancedescriptors so well because we
have studied them and theydescribe language in a very
abstract way that is like, youknow, it's our specialty.
It's like a technical language,right.
That we speak.
We have perceptions about itthat are informed by a bit more
(39:08):
expertise than they have byvirtue of time and dedicated
study.
And so, you know, we, we try tohave to try to make those
judgments as best we can withthat expertise.
And, you know, a kid is justmight just want to name, or it
might just, you know, feel thepressure to do that for all the
reasons that you describedearlier.
Bryan (39:25):
and I mean, we can't forget that a lot of students,
the high school, well, thosethat are interested in attending
college, see it as like the pathto college and everything is
about that college and thoseacceptance letters that they get
or don't get and, you know,there's just so many pressures
that these students are under,but one moment that I would like
to highlight from that is thatessentially, like, where we
(39:48):
agreed was a huge part of theOkay.
I guess for like level four forme is I'm using complex
sentences and I taught themthroughout the year, like what a
complex census is.
And so we were looking at thiswork sample that they put on
their PowerPoint and I was like,is that a complex sentence?
And they're like, no, I waslike, what about that?
(40:08):
Is that a complaint?
And they're like, no.
So eventually they're like, Oh,I see.
The rubric is actually, youknow, there are reasons why you
gave me this great.
I was like, yeah, yeah
bill (40:16):
I've got a couple of questions
Bryan (40:19):
Yeah, go ahead.
bill (40:20):
Did students in their responses ever say say anything
about how they felt aboutfeedback in this process, or was
there any difference betweenlike what kind of feedback they
get in like a non standard basedclass versus a standard based
(40:42):
class,
Bryan (40:43):
well, I mean, it was interesting because I asked
them, you know, like, let's sayyou got an 87 percent on the
test and I don't know, English,math, whatever, social studies
class does that help you knowwhat you need to do to get
better?
And the student was like, yeah,and I was like, can you explain
that?
And they said like, Oh, well,you know, I just need to answer
(41:04):
questions more correctly so thatI get an 88%.
And I'm like, that doesn't, Imean, that's not like actionable
bill (41:10):
get there though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bryan (41:12):
you know?
So yeah, but once again, themost of the positive comments
were around the additionalclarity and like understanding
of strengths and weaknesses thatwere inherent in the standards
based grading system that I use.
So based on all of this, whatare my recommendations for
teachers?
(41:32):
I think that you have tounderstand your teaching context
and Like, if you are going tosolo be the only standards based
grading teacher in your entireschool, you need to be prepared
for pushback, and you need tomake sure that your
administration is going tosupport you in doing that.
I do not want any of you to getfired, okay?
So, you need to make sure thatyou will have the necessary
(41:56):
backup that you likely will needif that is the case.
if you are in maybe the oppositesituation where your district
has decided are doing standardsbased grading, well you better
ask a lot of questions about howthey plan on, you know, pushing
out the implementation.
Are they going to providetraining for teachers?
How are they
FishRod (42:15):
Please.
Bryan (42:16):
training?
What things do they expectteachers to actually change?
Because a lot of studies foundthat districts that just pushed
it out on people they failedbecause the teachers didn't have
the time to really Kind ofinternalize the potential
tenants of standards basedgrading and figure out how it
works for them personally.
Those things just take time.
(42:37):
Developing the communicationskills about it takes time.
So, they recommended that, like,you just change one thing at a
time.
Like, maybe we just talk abouthomework and how that factors
into grades this year.
And then next year, we can talkabout, you know, Turning things
in late and you know, just likeone thing at a time.
bill (42:55):
It's almost as if, like, we as adults know what we want
in our learning process and,like, don't just push all of
this new stuff at me at once.
And expect me to actuallyimplement it well but at the
same time like we push a lot oflike elementary and middle
(43:17):
school and high school kids tolike get through all the content
in a year.
Bryan (43:22):
Yeah
bill (43:23):
just a perspective, like and they are, they're, they're
doing that in seven, eightclasses.
We're doing it with one.
Bryan (43:30):
being a
bill (43:31):
Yeah, go ahead.
Yep.
Bryan (43:32):
job.
bill (43:33):
yes, yes, yes, yes.
100 percent that.
100 percent that.
Bryan (43:38):
so some more recommendations that I have just
trying to advocate for commonpractices, whether that's
between
FishRod (43:43):
Okay.
Let's go ahead and finish up.
I love how you guys are so well,it's the best.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love you too.
Yeah.
Love.
Love.
Love.
Love.
Love.
Love.
I'm going to go ahead and closethe meeting.
Bryan (44:20):
that their procrastination had increased.
So, one thing that I have doneat least for the
procrastination, is thatstudents in my classes are not
allowed to have more than threemissing assignments.
If they do, they have to write aletter to their parents.
In which they say, Dear Parent,I am missing X, Y, Z assignment.
(44:42):
I plan, these are missingbecause of X, A, B, C reasons.
I plan to turn them in on Gdate.
And they have to get it signedand their parent has to email me
to prove that they actually readthe letter.
Now, I will say that a lot ofstudents don't actually follow
through with all of those steps.
But, just kind of like, I, youknow, I hand them the letter.
I don't like make a huge dealabout it.
(45:03):
I'm just like, You know, andthey look at it and they're
like, Oh, no, like that makesthem like something about that
makes them think concretelyabout like what things they've
turned in or not.
And they know that if they havemore than 3 missing by the end
of the grading period, if it's aprogress report, they get a D
minus because I've been told I'mnot allowed to give students
incompletes, what I used to do.
(45:24):
you figure out what works foryou.
And then at the end of thesemester, I will reduce their
final grade on the 4 point scaleby 0.
5.
For each multiple of three.
students do not want that tohappen.
And the result is that I havethink out of all of my students
only two of them have theirgrades reduced at the end of
last semester.
(45:44):
And I'd say there's like over a90 percent turn in rate on
assignments.
Versus when I first usedstandard space grading it was
more like 50%.
So it's been a huge, hugeimprovement, just doing that.
And in terms of recognizingeffort, I mean, I think it's
just teaching students that
FishRod (46:01):
And oh, Yeah.
Yeah.
we've got that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Bryan (46:21):
because I found that students you know, I also offer
them the opportunity toreassess.
I consider, you know, each newassessment replacing their grade
A form of reassessment, but likeI said, you can retake something
if you want, but you have toprove to me that you've done
something to prepare for that.
You can't just like.
Take it and then come back thenext day without doing anything
different because they'llprobably get the same score.
(46:41):
And so I talked to them aboutwhy that's valuable because it's
like, Hey, like, the point ofthis class is for me to help you
to do better.
And so if we're not spending alot of time about, you know,
talking about what things youcan do to do better, you might
not do better.
I mean, you may, but like, it'sjust something, a tool that they
can use, right?
and stickers.
Students love stickers.
(47:01):
I don't know.
One
FishRod (47:03):
What is standards based grading positions on stickers?
I think that, I mean, we're,we're kind of sliding into the,
the, the girl boss universe.
And that was like, one of my bigtakeaways from reading your
paper was like, okay, retakes isthe way to go.
We have to find ways to makethat sustainable for ourselves,
but also useful for them fortheir learning and that it's
(47:23):
focused on learning and notpoint accumulation.
Another takeaway I had fromreading is like, the clarity of
rubrics and consistency offormatting is super important
because that the standard is notchanging.
Right?
So the rubrics should be clear.
And the formatting helpsstudents feel less, anxious.
I appreciated that your studentssaid that, like the using the AP
grading scale made sense becauseI think that referencing it to
(47:45):
something like a language theyalready speak, like an AP exam
helps it kind of find thatweight in reality for them,
which again, like grades arevery abstract and learning is
kind of an abstract thing.
And so, but I think that, youknow it requires that kind of
nuance.
And that's sort of like, theysaid, like, you know, languages
of subjectivity subjective.
And that's what, like, therubrics on the on the AP exam
(48:07):
are holistic, right?
Like, they're not, they're notthese, like, very specific
points.
They're pretty, I thinksubjective is not the right
word, but they're very, they'remore broad than like an analytic
rubric.
And so I think, you know, havingboth like analytic rubrics to
help push the performances, butthen the you know, holistic
grades that reflect thatlanguage acquisition is messy
and crazy.
Bryan (48:26):
yeah, something that really helped that has been
helping and I encourage everyoneto do is to look at exemplars.
So I.
Have students look at actualpast AP tests.
You know, the college boardposts them online.
So I'm like, Hey, let's look atthis.
What score do you think theyearned?
Let's talk about why.
That's the first thing we do.
And we continue doing thatthroughout the year.
(48:46):
And then I started doing that inmy low levels too.
I'm like, Hey, this student gota three.
Let's talk about why, or like,what score do you think this
student get?
And so they, they get a clearerpicture in their mind of like
what the performance they'reaiming for actually looks like.
FishRod (48:58):
Brian Girlboss is so hard that we'll let, we'll let
him have the, that final word.
Go forth, Gatekeep Girlboss, andslay.
bill (49:06):
Bye.
Bryan (49:07):
Bye.
Hello and welcome to another episode of SLA second
(00:04):
language acquisition foreveryone this week We're going
to be talking about standardsbased grading and we are lucky
enough to have our own residentexpert brian So, brian, could
you quickly?
Help us review the definition ofStandard based grading so we're
(00:24):
all on the same page here.
Bryan (00:26):
So the definition of standards based grading is using
a set of external criteria asthe basis of students grades.
So that may be your statestandards that may be, you know,
the actual world readinessstandards.
something that is kind of sayinglike this is what students
should be able to do.
It's clearly defined and it laysout your objectives and you're
(00:47):
only using the results ofassessments based on those
standards with clearlycommunicated goals and criteria
with the students for to formthe grades and not including
behavioral factors in studentsgrades.
And there are a lot of reasonsbehind that, which we'll get
into in a bit.
bill (01:03):
So with that in mind Some ways that I have gaslit myself
in my grading practices is Iknow in my heart that I should
be basing grades on whatstudents can do in relation to
Standards because within theworld language education world,
(01:25):
we have pretty clear categories,I guess, for our grades, we've
got the five C's, which is aneasy thing to start with.
So maybe you categorize yourgrade book by the five C's, the
compare communication, culture,comparison, connection, and
communities.
Maybe you go in a little bitmore specific and only focus on.
(01:49):
The communication standards anddivide your gradebook into
interpersonal communication,interpretive communication, and
presentational communication.
Some other people go to the fourskills, reading, writing,
listening, speaking.
And with all of those things inmind something that I've kind of
like ended up on iscomprehension and production as
(02:12):
my two categories for my grades.
Cause one, I can't do the mathof how to make sure that all of
them numbers like are the sameand even with like automatic.
Grade weighting in like alearning management system, like
Canvas, it still can like getuneven.
(02:33):
So like if I only have, if Ihave three categories or two
categories and it's 50 50, but Ionly have one grade in one
category, but four grades in theother one, that one assignment.
Is Say 50 percent of thestudents overall grade.
(02:53):
I So like public trying tofigure out how to not sure that
that's balanced throughout hasbeen a struggle for me.
And
Bryan (03:01):
citizens themselves.
And we want
bill (03:03):
I
Bryan (03:04):
that we do
bill (03:05):
want to make sure that, I mean,
Bryan (03:07):
for
bill (03:07):
the reason that people do.
Bryan (03:09):
And I think
bill (03:10):
is because
Bryan (03:11):
should be looking
bill (03:12):
communication includes listening and speaking.
Or writing and responding orsigning and responding with
science.
But so it's hard to like, justbreak that down into those two
categories for me, if I'm justusing my production and
comprehension categories.
But yeah, I think that's one waythat we gaslight ourselves is
(03:35):
like just Deciding, trying tofigure out what's best for the
gradebook, what's best forreporting.
student progress.
And yeah, so that's something Ithink about a lot.
I have done the comprehensionand production grade book
categories for the past coupleyears and it seems to be the one
(03:57):
that I most align with thethings that I do formally assess
in class.
So I don't know, what about you?
Have, how have your like gradebook categories or I don't know,
have your grade book categoriesevolved, I guess.
Bryan (04:12):
I think before I get into that, I actually want to ask you
a question, Bill.
when you said that you'reworried about balancing the
weights and like you get theexample of having like one
assessment in one category andlike four in another Can you
talk a little bit, does that,can you say a little bit about
why, like, what the issue inparticular with that is with
(04:34):
you?
Like,
bill (04:35):
Yeah.
Bryan (04:35):
are your concerns, the problems that that might cause
for students?
bill (04:38):
Yeah.
So I think that if, and I thinkthis happens in like first, like
people who do straight points aswell.
Like the first grade that youput in a total points grade book
is determining the grade at thatpoint.
And you have to have more gradesfor that to have less of a, for
(05:01):
that less of an effect if Idon't have anything in the grade
book, but yeah.
Only 10 points are available andyou get six out of 10 on
whatever it is.
Then you're stuck with that sixout of 10 until the next time we
get a grade with the part aboutbalancing just like two
(05:22):
categories for me is I have tolike I don't think I have a
solid answer on how much I thinka single assignment should be
worth.
in a student's overall grade.
So at my at a previous schoolthat I worked at we weren't
allowed to have anything, anyone assignment be worth more
(05:44):
than 10 percent of a student'soverall grade.
And which more or less madesense to me, like a grading
period is about 10 weeks.
So like an assignment per week,if you've got 10 assignments,
each one's worth 10 percent ofyour overall grade.
So that's kind of like works forme.
So I guess that's just like howmuch of their grade should be
(06:07):
from like what amount of time,maybe.
Bryan (06:10):
So you basically believe that a grade should represent,
like, a whole picture of asemester from beginning to end,
including performances at thebeginning, middle, and end?
bill (06:21):
I think so.
I think I want the score to beas accurate as possible for as
long as possible.
So I might have a really goodread on students reading or
listening comprehension becauseI've assessed that formally more
and that's going to becommunicated in, or at least
that's how I think they can becommunicated in a grade book.
(06:44):
But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I, you, you're, you're askingquestions to make me think about
it even more than or more than Ihave.
Bryan (06:54):
Well yeah, that is what I spend a huge amount of time
trying to get people to do.
So we're, one of the reasonswe're talking about this is
because I, this is the topic ofmy master's thesis.
I wrote my thesis on studentperspectives on standards based
grading in the world languageclassroom.
And I go really into lot of thedifferent trains of thought that
(07:17):
have existed in terms of What isa grade?
What does it mean?
How do we communicate it?
What is a grade in worldlanguage?
And, you know, what are thebenefits, consequences of how we
talk about grades in worldlanguage and through the lens of
standard space grading.
So it's really interesting tohear from another teacher and
like what their perspectivesare, because I've been on a
really long journey with thisand I'm pretty comfortable, I'd
(07:40):
say maybe 95 percent comfortablewith where I'm at right now.
But Yeah, there's always,there's always been and there
always will be a diversity ofperspectives.
But I just think that there area few, like, key we can ask
ourselves when we're wondering,like, what we should do with our
own particular gradebooks.
What I I guess I can start with,like, where I started.
(08:02):
So I think, you know, like manyteachers, I replicated what
existed when I was in schoolwhen I first started teaching.
So we had like the test categoryand the homework category and
the project category.
And I used that for a few yearsand you know, nobody ever really
questioned it because that'swhat everyone was so used to.
But then I, you know I thinkthere was A new teacher at my
(08:25):
school who came in the door withstairs based grading like they
had already used it in theirprevious teaching assignment.
And so I got really curiousabout it because a lot of the
things that they were talkingabout, like I was like, what?
Like, I've never thought of itthat way.
Or like, that's just completelydifferent from anything I've
seen before.
(08:46):
So I got really intrigued andlearn to learn some more about
it.
But I was just reallyintimidated at first because
because it was such a shift Fromwhat I've done before.
So it took me a few more yearsto actually start implementing
it.
Presentational communicationshould be we did actually use
the, the names of the differentmodes of communication, but I
think that there are just someconcepts behind it that I didn't
(09:08):
quite grasp yet.
So like a, like, differentphases of my implementation of
it.
And so now I'm fully all the wayin SPG.
My grade book, at my currentschool, we still use primarily,
well, only the communicationstandard, but within the three
different modes.
So interpretive, interpersonal,presentational.
And then we have like kind of another category for other things.
(09:32):
And so because I believe that agrade should represent what a
student knows and is able to doafter, at the end of a learning
sequence, because, you know,when you out their transcript,
you're saying like, this is whatthe student learned from me,
right?
For pretty much any class, ifyou ask teachers, that's what
they would probably say.
They think their grades shouldrepresent, although they might
(09:53):
say that there are other thingswithin it, you know, that they
value and may be part of it, butFor me, because of that their
final performance in thissemester I do performance based
assessments constitutes 90percent of their grade and 10
percent is reserved for theother that we do and all the
teachers in my department, weuse the same waiting for each of
the levels and the percentagesshift a little bit, depending on
(10:17):
the level.
So, for example, in levels oneand two, interpretive
communication is about.
40 percent of their grades.
Because we believe that it'sreally important for students to
comprehend the input thatthey're receiving.
That's where they will get thewhat they need to build the
system of language in order todevelop their proficiency.
And then at the end of theprogram, then the AP level
(10:40):
presentational is the largestportion of it, because that's
when their production skills arethings that they really need to
work on.
Although all students, We mustnot forget that all students
need comprehensible input andinteraction in the language.
It never stops being important,but there are other skills that
students want to develop more asyou go up in those proficiency
(11:02):
levels.
that's kind of where I'm at.
It gets a bit more complex thanthat, but that's just a broad
overview of what I'm doing rightnow.
Ben, what's going on with you?
FishRod (11:12):
Yeah, my great book is a mess and always has been a
mess will continue for a whileto be a mess as I'm like, still
trying to figure this out formyself.
When I started teaching, I hadbeen through a program that had
taught me about the use ofrubrics and talking clarity with
like very clear success criteriaand, and lesson planning and all
that sort of stuff.
and then I landed in a districtthat was actually integrating
(11:35):
standards based grading into thesecondary level and was in year
question mark of that.
I don't know.
I never received any trainingabout it which I think was part
of the problem for me and maybe,you know, previewing the.
The gatekeep section is like,yeah, if you don't know what it
is, then it is confusing,intimidating, and can lead to
stress and anxiety.
What I was finding myself doingwas, first of all, my district,
(11:58):
I think, had too many powerstandards.
I think for standards basedgrading, you need to really hone
in on, like, what are thesestandards, the most important
things.
We had actual communicationstandards, I believe, thrown in
there.
But then there were also like,common core standards.
in as well, which I think crosscurricularly is like, yeah, it's
good to collaborate with yourcolleagues in language arts.
(12:21):
We do, you know, we're in thesame of stuff, you know, and
that they want to, there to bemore cross curricular
connections.
In reality, again, no trainingon that.
I was not trained as an ELAteacher.
Was kind of like, okay, like I'dcame from a, you know from
learning in a pretty traditionalway and then, you know, getting
more proficiency oriented stuffin college.
And then was suddenly inStanford's grading world with no
(12:43):
support.
So that I think the clarity andtraining would have helped me a
lot.
And then I moved to a districtthat has a traditional grade
book.
And it was kind of up to me tochoose.
And I also have been differentlyby level and using the modes of
communication for my grade bookcategories.
So as it stands right now, Iactually have interpretive
reading and listening separatedout and weighted pretty heavily
(13:07):
each.
And then interpersonal.
then presentational, and thoseare just kind of all together
because I didn't, I wasn't doingenough interpersonal writing to
make that worth its owncategory.
And then presentational, I wasnot doing tons of anyways
because the approach I wasusing.
And then I kind of added on inrecent years Fifth, I guess
would be fifth category that isreflection which I kind of use
(13:28):
as a catch all to, you know,writing in English or thinking
about culture, thinking about,you know their own progress,
sort of metacognition stuff thatdoesn't quite fit into the, the
purview of, you know, You know,language use but more like
reflection on the, the process Iput into kind of a separate
category.
And I've been pretty contentwith that kind of layout for now
and kind of like you, Brian, mylower levels, I want to say, I
(13:51):
think my level one, twointerpretive categories together
add up to 70 percent and itmight be like 10 percent each
for presentational.
Interpersonal and thenreflection, but then it tilts
gradually because I was teachingto an AP program.
By the end, it was 22.
5 percent for each of thosemodes, because that roughly
reflects the kind of modes onthe AP exam is that, you know,
(14:13):
22.
5 percent of the grade is areading grade.
And then there's the listeningand reading is 22.
5%.
Well, I guess in that test is25%.
But in my grade, you know, allthat being said, with a still a
10 percent reflection categoryon top.
But I find like I have beenreckoning with myself about how
I use grades and what theyactually communicate and
reflecting on the need forbetter assessment practices and
(14:35):
myself.
Like, what is, you know, what amI counting as assessment?
What is just like a randompiddly little assignment?
and I have been using kind ofthe great book recently.
And putting formatives in whichI know is like kind of like a
like maybe don't do that butputting them in for like one
point where like a summative isworth and it's a hundred points.
So it has a hopefully minoreffect on the actual grade, but
(14:57):
also helps me keep track betterof what students have done and
not done as a way ofcommunicating that with them and
their families.
You know, to indicate like, Oh,so and so is not doing
classwork.
The evidence I have of that isall these like missing things
that show up in the grade bookthat we all have access to.
And I kind of feel okay withthat now, but I think.
I think I'm, I'm on a quest forbetter assessments for myself
(15:18):
and better clarity as to likewhat the preparation for the
assessment looks like studentsall having the same rubrics.
I've been getting better.
My presentational rubrics arevery uniform now I'm kind of
like in a swamp mire of questionmarks for myself presently and
then interpretive.
I feel pretty comfortable withmy rubric.
But so for me, all that beingsaid thank you for hearing my
life story is I.
(15:39):
I'm interested in the, in thetenets of standards based
grading, and I have not quite,made it work for myself in a way
that I feel like 100 percentconfident behind.
So I was happy to read yourstudy, Brian to learn more just
about standards based grading ingeneral, but then also see kind
of the effects that it had.
Bryan (15:56):
It's great.
Yeah, I also, my, my like wiggleroom category is primarily a
reflection for most of my, I doactually count, like, housework,
homework assignments for mymiddle school class, just
because I found over the yearsthat they're just not at the
metacognitive level to be ableto not have that kind of thing
graded.
(16:16):
So I make an exception for them,but the high schoolers, yeah, I
actually don't.
The individual assignments arenot part of their grade
calculation, but as I willdiscuss later, that does not
mean it doesn't affect theirgrade.
Yes.
bill (16:31):
So, So, one thing that I had thought about, like, with
that, like, extra category,like, I also have one of those.
I just call it classwork and,you know use the vocabulary.
Students are familiar with andyeah, everything else gets
thrown in there.
Nothing, that's all for metypically just like completion
(16:52):
stuff because I want you to doit on your own, on your own, but
we're going to review ittogether.
So I'm going to collect it andlike put in a couple points for
you to show that you are doingthe things that I'm asking.
And hopefully listening, well,doing the things that I'm as
that I am saying will bebeneficial for your learn
(17:15):
overall learning and whatever.
Like, this isn't a waste of timeso make sure you're doing it,
and I know points motivate you.
And, but at one point, I hadthought about using that extra
category as maybe like, Theother four C's and using it as
like a reflection portfolio.
I never looked any more intothat, but like, that's
(17:38):
definitely like I thought that Ihad because a lot like one, it's
hard to grade like culturalunderstandings, but unless
you've got like concrete facts,but what actual has said in like
their interculturalcommunication, reflection and
stuff is like, it's okay to useL1 in that for that stuff.
So.
(17:59):
Yeah, why don't I just havethem, like, reflect on the
stuff, the cultural things thatwe're doing in class, and then,
like, maybe I, like, assessingthat could be assessing the
reflection could be something,like, shows thoughtful
comparison, something.
Bryan (18:17):
Yeah.
I'm pretty much doing that.
Like, that's so my extracategories, reflection, and they
also have a language andcultural journal that they keep
throughout the semester.
I will talk about that more whenwe get to girl busing.
But I just wanted to reflect onone more gaslight that I did.
I did do one year where I didnot like classic homework, like
(18:38):
did not affect their grades atall in any way.
I'm It was a disaster.
I really tried to do my best.
And I learned a lot from it.
And like I said, it stilldoesn't technically directly
affect their grade.
But there's, I've got somestrategies to make it work
better.
And I feel a lot better about itnow.
So,
FishRod (18:58):
Where students were just not doing the homework,
right?
Bryan (19:01):
they
FishRod (19:01):
like, yeah.
Tell
Bryan (19:03):
part of that goes is connected to just being
comfortable with the idea ofstandard space grading and like
understanding like what it meansand why teachers are doing it
and like all those things.
And so that does take a whilefor students and their families
and the school community to getused to.
So the first year that youimplement things, it might be a
(19:26):
rough transition period.
But I just recommend that peoplehold on to.
something that they value and becomfortable changing at least
one thing.
You don't have to throw thewhole baby out with the
bathwater right away, althoughyou can just be prepared for, I
don't know, getting splashedwhen you do that.
FishRod (19:43):
Us about the study, Brian.
Bryan (19:45):
So I'm opening the gates for you.
Feel free to download the PDF ofmy thesis.
Please don't print it out.
But, you know,
FishRod (19:52):
This is a, this is a direct attack.
I printed it out.
I read everything on paper.
I'm sorry everyone.
I'm sorry the environment.
I'm sorry the world.
Bryan (19:58):
I should have put that, like, message people sometimes
have in their email, like,please consider the environment
before printing this message,like, on the first page.
But anyway.
So, as I said, the title isStudent Perspectives on Standard
Space Grading in the WorldLanguage Classroom.
So, in reviewing literature onstandard space grading, there is
basically nothing published.
(20:19):
There was nothing published inthe year of 2023 to 2024 on
world language specifically.
And there was to very fewstudies were published included
student voices.
Most of the studies talked aboutteacher perspectives,
administrative perspectives.
Sometimes they would get intofamily perspectives, but there
wasn't a lot on studentperspectives.
(20:40):
So I thought that was somethingimportant to add to the
literature.
And so I conducted a mixedmethods case study with my own
students as participants.
There are pros and cons to doingthat, but the pro is it's easy
for a teacher to do that becauseyou have direct access to your
own students and you can reflecton things that you've tried and
(21:03):
everything has greater contextversus if you observe at a
different school, for example,you might have.
Fewer threats to reliability dueto pressures that students might
feel to say what they think youwant to say.
But at the same time, it's likeyou don't really know what's
been going on in that classroomwith those students, with that
(21:25):
teacher.
So having her being in it is areally a really valuable lens to
take.
The actual study itself involveda survey that student, an
anonymous survey that studentstook and also focus groups group
interviews.
So I, you know, as part of mymaster's thesis, I implemented
(21:46):
this I let students and theirparents know about it.
They had to get permission slipsformed for parents to give their
consent and everything.
you know, advertised it as like,Hey, come at lunch.
Like, We'll talk about thisstudy and, I don't know, give
you some French snacks orsomething.
To get them all recruited andbuzzed about wanting to
participate it was voluntary ofcourse.
(22:08):
So standards based gradingemerged as an alternative
grading practice in about the90s to early 2000s.
Like, people started talkingabout it in the 1990s and, you
know, started implementing it inearnest in the early 2000s
because there were a lot ofissues that have been identified
with traditional gradingpractices.
(22:30):
One of those issues, forexample, if you look at the
typical 100 point grading scalewhere, you know, like 100 to 90
something is an A and like 80something is a B in those
grading scales.
to get an F that starts at like60 percent to 59 percent, and if
you like drew a circle and like,you know, portioned out
(22:53):
percentage of the circle likevisually looked at it, you would
see that like over half of theentire scale is based on
failure.
There's a lot greateropportunity for students to fail
using that kind of calculationthan there are for students to
be successful.
and people have found issue withthat.
(23:13):
also the idea of an omnibusgrade, which is having one
measure, such as a letter gradeor a number on the percentage
scale, represent a huge varietyof different things.
So as I mentioned in thebeginning, traditional grades
will include tests, quizzes,projects, homework, classwork.
(23:35):
Participation some people evengrade like coming to class on
time or not being in class,things like that.
And that really starts to muddythe meaning of like, okay, well,
what does this A, what does thisB, what does this C really mean?
Especially if you are someonewho has no contact, like you
Don't know who this teacher is.
Don't know what they did.
You're reviewing theirtranscript or something.
(23:57):
You have no idea what has goneinto that a what has gone into
that beat.
So yeah, that's an area ofconcern where having clear
established criteria based onexternal standards that define,
like again, what students shouldbe doing should be able to do
what they're being assessed onvery clearly.
And having that be the basis ofthe grade.
(24:19):
That's why that came about.
There's also a huge lens onequity because as we know
students who are, who have beenhistorically disadvantaged in
schools a lot of Where thatcomes from are the traditional
grading practices.
So students who working tosupport their family have to
watch younger siblings becausetheir parents aren't at home,
(24:40):
may not have a lot of time to dohomework when they go home
versus students who do not haveto think about that kind of
thing.
And maybe you have parents whoare highly educated and can help
them with their homework.
They do not.
You know, they're going to havemore success completing homework
assignments and also just theidea of kind of walking in the
door with skills alreadypossessed.
(25:01):
So if you had the opportunityto, I don't know, attend an
immersion school or somethinglike that before starting the
class, you are going to have aneasier time than someone who
didn't have that opportunity.
So there's just a lot ofdifferent factors that go into
why basing a grade on What hasbeen taught and assessed in the
(25:22):
classroom?
And also, I think personally,that's related to why I wait so
heavily the final assessment,because, you know it gives those
students who didn't walk in thedoor with skills already a
chance to actually just developthose skills and then finally
display them.
So I don't want students to bepunished for poor early
(25:43):
performance when I when I thinkmost teachers are like the
traditional system is to averageall of the scores throughout the
semester throughout the year.
And the effect of that is that.
Students who start out at aSprint will maintain that pace
in front of everyone else theentire time because they got an
A on the first test, then theygot a B on the next one versus
(26:05):
someone who got a D on the firsttest, and then a C.
And so what I found in the pastis that students who were
already starting out strong kindof felt like, eh, you know, I
know my grade is safe, so Idon't really have to put in that
much effort towards the end ofthe semester.
And they kind of check outbecause they know that they
don't really have to pass thefinal exam or whatever.
(26:25):
And then I saw students whoreally, really put in the
effort.
They came in for extra help.
They, you know, you know, didall that they could to improve
their grades, and they got amarvelous grade on the final,
but because of those earlierpoor grades that affected the
final grade that they eventuallyearned on their transcript.
So This is an idea to addresssome of those concerns.
(26:46):
So, as I mentioned my system isincluding the, well, okay, I
guess a better way to explain itis that when students take an
assessment, I put every, youknow, all the scores into the
gradebook, and then when theytake the next one, I replace
them.
So it's like, they see how theydid on this one my gradebook is
set up as the rubric is, so eachLike assignment is really a
(27:10):
criterion on the rubric so theycan them and their parents can
look and see what areas are theystrong in what areas do they
need improvement on?
And then, you know, the nexttime.
It's, you know, the gradesupdated to show where they
currently are at because I thinkit's important for grades to
show, to get accurateinformation on students current
progress.
And I do still keep the scoresfrom the previous ones, but it's
(27:34):
just like, it's in a like zerocategory.
So like all the rubrics andthings are in there so they can
see how they've done over time.
And also through my learningmanagement system, I've got a
way, like there is a anintentional standards gradebook
so students can actually liketrack each of their, you know,
their performance on each of thestandards like in a visual way
that I think is helpful forthem.
(27:55):
So that's kind of the systemthat I'm using and it is very
different to certainly what theteacher I replaced did and what
many other teachers at mycurrent school do.
But we do have a lot of teachersin the math and science
departments that usestandardized grading at my
school.
So it's not like a completelyforeign concept to them, which I
think helped a lot with ourimplementation.
bill (28:16):
So we use canvas at my school and there is the.
The mastery grade book orlearning mastery grade book,
which is like, they call themoutcomes, but you put in all of
the different standards forgotthe word you put in all the
standards and then in eachassignment, you attach it to one
of them.
So no matter what it is nomatter what the assignment is,
(28:36):
so I guess you couldtheoretically attach it to do
different outcomes.
But I don't understand becausethis is like my problem all
together with the whole thing ofgrading is like, I don't know
how to do the numbers.
So like it gives all thesedifferent options.
Like, do you want to do adecaying average?
Do you want to do overall?
And like, I don't know what anyof those, how any of those math
(28:58):
things would work out so that Icould figure out whether or not
it is an appropriate tool touse.
Silence.
Silence.
(29:24):
Silence.
Bryan (29:34):
called mastery.
And so I put in a score out of 4because I grade things on the 4
point scale for each assessment.
And those are the, Quote unquoteassignments that I attached the
standards to.
So that's why when they lookedat the mastery tab, they can
track their progress on thestandards, but then there's
other, you know, the actualgrade calculation happens in the
(29:56):
other.
So it's kind of hard to talkabout just with words and not
seeing what it looks like, but Ifound a solution for that.
That works for me and it mightwork for others.
So, yeah.
so this being kind of thebackground of the study my
questionnaire that studentsfilled out was really just based
on their experiences.
So do you like standards basedgrading?
(30:19):
Does it feel like an appropriateway to measure your learning?
In general, in this class, inother classes do you feel that
you understand?
strengths and weaknesses betterusing it.
Do you think other classesshould implement standards based
grading, things like that, andthe results of that, just
(30:40):
quickly looking of graphs I'vegot here.
So I, I, I broke.
the results down into groupingsby grade level and gender
because that's where thedifferences started to show up.
and what I found was thatstudents who were younger and
also students who were new tothe school had a much more
(31:02):
positive opinion of standardspace grading because they
didn't really know anything elseversus the older students who
had been used to kind of the waythings had been.
at the school before I startedchanging things had the most
negative views on it, whichmakes sense if you think about
it, you know walking intosomething for the first time
(31:22):
versus, you know, You know, thedouble, you know, I guess from
the student perspective and thenfor some reason, male students
seem to like it a little bitbetter than female students.
I don't know what the reasonsfor that could be.
And I also, like I said,conducted focus group interviews
with groups of students thatcontained, mix of different
grade levels and genders and allthat.
(31:44):
And they had some reallyinteresting things to say.
So, for example, a lot of themcompared my system with the
standard space grading system inmath where I guess the way it
works with the math contentstandards is like, you know how
to divide, check, you know howto multiply, multiply, check.
And so it's just like reallylike very content based, like,
(32:06):
Topic that topics differenttopics that would be covered
throughout the year, and itseems that when students
demonstrate mastery of that orskill or whatever it is when
it's taught, they're like good.
It goes in their gradebook, andit cannot go if they have
mastered it.
The grade for that cannot drop.
So they feel that.
(32:26):
more at ease, I guess, becausethey have that idea of like,
well I've mastered like eightout of the 10 standards.
And so there's only two left forthe final.
And so I'm not that worriedabout it essentially.
And so they also talked aboutthe benefits that they saw with
my system.
They really like that havingeverything broken down by skill
(32:47):
is It provides more clarity forthem in terms of knowing what
they need to improve on.
And it's a lot better than justhaving, like, test category B,
you know, because that doesn'tnecessarily help them know what
they're good at and what they,you know, need to work on.
And then overall, for the mostpart students said that they
felt like not includingclasswork and homework in their
(33:09):
grade increased theirprocrastination.
And that they felt more anxietyover the final because it's such
a huge part.
I mean, it's 90 percent of theirgrade.
although students did comment onkind of.
know, getting used to thesystem.
Like, definitely the first yearwas a little scary for them
because it was so different.
(33:30):
But like the second year ofimplementation, some of them
said, like, I kind of figuredout, you know, what I need to do
to be successful.
And so I think it's reallyimportant to just keep that in
mind.
If you are implementing standardspace grading that just initial
reactions do not necessarily,they don't necessarily that what
(33:52):
you're doing is or wrong, it'sjust that humans tend to react
to new and different things,especially something that is so
emotionally charged like grades.
I don't know, they can havestrong reactions to those and
it's just the communicationabout what you're doing and why
and just being very open andtransparent about everything is
(34:14):
Super important for that.
So yeah that was just kind of aglimpse into some of the results
that I got.
and then just going into a bitmore of like, what, what does it
all mean?
You know students kind of someof them, one, one finding that I
thought was pretty interestingis that they, they seem to think
that standard space grading wasparticularly good.
(34:36):
The ones who had positiveopinions, I was particularly
good for humanities class, likeworld language, because they're
like, you know, it's not justabout numbers.
It's not like getting an averageon, you know, math tests or
whatever.
It's about learning cumulative,because your proficiency
development is something thatdevelops over time.
And They thought thattraditional grading has some
(34:59):
advantages for them as studentsthat were taken away by
standards based grading.
And again, just a reminder thatthis is the student perspective
on it.
So they believe that averagingtheir grades recognizes their
effort over time.
They believed that having a 100point scale increased precision
in grading, although there isn'tmuch evidence to support that
(35:19):
that's actually true.
If you take two essays and putthem in front of English
teachers and say, which one isthe 87 percent and which one is
the 86 percent, they're not, noteacher, no two teachers are
going to give the same answer.
So, The hundred point scale isan illusion of precision, but
they don't necessarily knowthat.
And they also commented on thebenefit of, like, kind of
bargaining with their teachers,like, hey, I got a 97.
(35:43):
5, why not 98%?
And I guess that works for them.
I don't know.
But, you know, I don't, I mean,Everything is just based on
rubrics and performance.
And so you can't really even dothat in my grading system.
and it may just be that studentswho prefer traditional systems,
especially at a quote unquotehigh performing school, like the
(36:03):
one that I teach at, might havesome cultural Alignment with the
culture that is behind thetraditional system, which would
be, you know white, upper middleclass, highly educated, like
having that sort of backgroundwhere I think a lot of the, I
don't know, initial, where a lotof this, I guess, the
(36:24):
traditional system came frompeople who had similar
backgrounds.
And so.
The values that were instilledin them in terms of like what
they need to do in the classroommight or how they need to even
behave in the classroom becausewe know that students who have
like kind of a cultural mismatchwith their teacher certain
behaviors might be seen as, youknow.
being lazy or beingargumentative or something like
(36:46):
that.
But, you know there's just, youjust always have to remember
that there's a cultural lens toeverything.
And so some students might havebenefits by being in alignment
with that.
FishRod (36:57):
I think that also, I mean, it just reveals to that
how much of grading sometimesboils down to mind reading, like
expecting students to try tolike figure out what a teacher
likes.
I'm thinking of like a horrorstory.
One of my students told me inthe past that was like, I was
supposed to represent what Ilearned about chemical
properties or something in somesort of quote creative way.
And I got marched down on thecreativity aspect of it.
(37:20):
I was like, you're in a scienceclass.
You showed you're learning aboutthe science and the science
class.
Like, isn't that the standard?
And they were like, I similarlydon't understand what's going
on.
But, but that requires a levelof, like, understanding of what
the teacher thinks, quote,creativity is an apparent lack
of clarity about what that is.
And then obviously, You can'tmeet the standard if you don't
(37:40):
know what it is, right?
Like you can't, there's no way.
And so, yeah, that's, I thinkthe removing those aspects of
like, what if I just talk to theteacher one more time and annoy
them into the thing where it'slike, I don't know, if you have
a students based system, youcould just be like, let's look
at your assessment.
You did this, the end,
Bryan (37:58):
so I actually do want to share.
I had the grade bargainingconversation while having
standardized grading, and I wantto give these kids credit
because they actually did awonderful job.
I still said no, but they did awonderful job at attempting to
convince me because I was like,okay, we can have a meeting.
We can talk about your grade.
(38:18):
If you can show me based on therubrics, how your performance
matches the higher level.
And so they made a PowerPointpresentation in which they
included samples of their workand, you know, the different
performance levels on therubric.
And they tried to, you know,argue their case.
Perhaps one of them will be afuture lawyer.
(38:41):
I mean, I'm proud that they didthat, but it's still just, it
didn't quite, it didn't, itdidn't make the mark.
They
FishRod (38:47):
ultimately, that's what grading.
That's what the hard part is,like, communicating this to
young people is that, like,Okay.
We know these performancedescriptors so well because we
have studied them and theydescribe language in a very
abstract way that is like, youknow, it's our specialty.
It's like a technical language,right.
That we speak.
We have perceptions about itthat are informed by a bit more
(39:08):
expertise than they have byvirtue of time and dedicated
study.
And so, you know, we, we try tohave to try to make those
judgments as best we can withthat expertise.
And, you know, a kid is justmight just want to name, or it
might just, you know, feel thepressure to do that for all the
reasons that you describedearlier.
Bryan (39:25):
and I mean, we can't forget that a lot of students,
the high school, well, thosethat are interested in attending
college, see it as like the pathto college and everything is
about that college and thoseacceptance letters that they get
or don't get and, you know,there's just so many pressures
that these students are under,but one moment that I would like
to highlight from that is thatessentially, like, where we
(39:48):
agreed was a huge part of theOkay.
I guess for like level four forme is I'm using complex
sentences and I taught themthroughout the year, like what a
complex census is.
And so we were looking at thiswork sample that they put on
their PowerPoint and I was like,is that a complex sentence?
And they're like, no, I waslike, what about that?
(40:08):
Is that a complaint?
And they're like, no.
So eventually they're like, Oh,I see.
The rubric is actually, youknow, there are reasons why you
gave me this great.
I was like, yeah, yeah
bill (40:16):
I've got a couple of questions
Bryan (40:19):
Yeah, go ahead.
bill (40:20):
Did students in their responses ever say say anything
about how they felt aboutfeedback in this process, or was
there any difference betweenlike what kind of feedback they
get in like a non standard basedclass versus a standard based
(40:42):
class,
Bryan (40:43):
well, I mean, it was interesting because I asked
them, you know, like, let's sayyou got an 87 percent on the
test and I don't know, English,math, whatever, social studies
class does that help you knowwhat you need to do to get
better?
And the student was like, yeah,and I was like, can you explain
that?
And they said like, Oh, well,you know, I just need to answer
(41:04):
questions more correctly so thatI get an 88%.
And I'm like, that doesn't, Imean, that's not like actionable
bill (41:10):
get there though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bryan (41:12):
you know?
So yeah, but once again, themost of the positive comments
were around the additionalclarity and like understanding
of strengths and weaknesses thatwere inherent in the standards
based grading system that I use.
So based on all of this, whatare my recommendations for
teachers?
(41:32):
I think that you have tounderstand your teaching context
and Like, if you are going tosolo be the only standards based
grading teacher in your entireschool, you need to be prepared
for pushback, and you need tomake sure that your
administration is going tosupport you in doing that.
I do not want any of you to getfired, okay?
So, you need to make sure thatyou will have the necessary
(41:56):
backup that you likely will needif that is the case.
if you are in maybe the oppositesituation where your district
has decided are doing standardsbased grading, well you better
ask a lot of questions about howthey plan on, you know, pushing
out the implementation.
Are they going to providetraining for teachers?
How are they
FishRod (42:15):
Please.
Bryan (42:16):
training?
What things do they expectteachers to actually change?
Because a lot of studies foundthat districts that just pushed
it out on people they failedbecause the teachers didn't have
the time to really Kind ofinternalize the potential
tenants of standards basedgrading and figure out how it
works for them personally.
Those things just take time.
(42:37):
Developing the communicationskills about it takes time.
So, they recommended that, like,you just change one thing at a
time.
Like, maybe we just talk abouthomework and how that factors
into grades this year.
And then next year, we can talkabout, you know, Turning things
in late and you know, just likeone thing at a time.
bill (42:55):
It's almost as if, like, we as adults know what we want
in our learning process and,like, don't just push all of
this new stuff at me at once.
And expect me to actuallyimplement it well but at the
same time like we push a lot oflike elementary and middle
(43:17):
school and high school kids tolike get through all the content
in a year.
Bryan (43:22):
Yeah
bill (43:23):
just a perspective, like and they are, they're, they're
doing that in seven, eightclasses.
We're doing it with one.
Bryan (43:30):
being a
bill (43:31):
Yeah, go ahead.
Yep.
Bryan (43:32):
job.
bill (43:33):
yes, yes, yes, yes.
100 percent that.
100 percent that.
Bryan (43:38):
so some more recommendations that I have just
trying to advocate for commonpractices, whether that's
between
FishRod (43:43):
Okay.
Let's go ahead and finish up.
I love how you guys are so well,it's the best.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love you too.
Yeah.
Love.
Love.
Love.
Love.
Love.
Love.
I'm going to go ahead and closethe meeting.
Bryan (44:20):
that their procrastination had increased.
So, one thing that I have doneat least for the
procrastination, is thatstudents in my classes are not
allowed to have more than threemissing assignments.
If they do, they have to write aletter to their parents.
In which they say, Dear Parent,I am missing X, Y, Z assignment.
(44:42):
I plan, these are missingbecause of X, A, B, C reasons.
I plan to turn them in on Gdate.
And they have to get it signedand their parent has to email me
to prove that they actually readthe letter.
Now, I will say that a lot ofstudents don't actually follow
through with all of those steps.
But, just kind of like, I, youknow, I hand them the letter.
I don't like make a huge dealabout it.
(45:03):
I'm just like, You know, andthey look at it and they're
like, Oh, no, like that makesthem like something about that
makes them think concretelyabout like what things they've
turned in or not.
And they know that if they havemore than 3 missing by the end
of the grading period, if it's aprogress report, they get a D
minus because I've been told I'mnot allowed to give students
incompletes, what I used to do.
(45:24):
you figure out what works foryou.
And then at the end of thesemester, I will reduce their
final grade on the 4 point scaleby 0.
5.
For each multiple of three.
students do not want that tohappen.
And the result is that I havethink out of all of my students
only two of them have theirgrades reduced at the end of
last semester.
(45:44):
And I'd say there's like over a90 percent turn in rate on
assignments.
Versus when I first usedstandard space grading it was
more like 50%.
So it's been a huge, hugeimprovement, just doing that.
And in terms of recognizingeffort, I mean, I think it's
just teaching students that
FishRod (46:01):
And oh, Yeah.
Yeah.
we've got that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Bryan (46:21):
because I found that students you know, I also offer
them the opportunity toreassess.
I consider, you know, each newassessment replacing their grade
A form of reassessment, but likeI said, you can retake something
if you want, but you have toprove to me that you've done
something to prepare for that.
You can't just like.
Take it and then come back thenext day without doing anything
different because they'llprobably get the same score.
(46:41):
And so I talked to them aboutwhy that's valuable because it's
like, Hey, like, the point ofthis class is for me to help you
to do better.
And so if we're not spending alot of time about, you know,
talking about what things youcan do to do better, you might
not do better.
I mean, you may, but like, it'sjust something, a tool that they
can use, right?
and stickers.
Students love stickers.
(47:01):
I don't know.
One
FishRod (47:03):
What is standards based grading positions on stickers?
I think that, I mean, we're,we're kind of sliding into the,
the, the girl boss universe.
And that was like, one of my bigtakeaways from reading your
paper was like, okay, retakes isthe way to go.
We have to find ways to makethat sustainable for ourselves,
but also useful for them fortheir learning and that it's
(47:23):
focused on learning and notpoint accumulation.
Another takeaway I had fromreading is like, the clarity of
rubrics and consistency offormatting is super important
because that the standard is notchanging.
Right?
So the rubrics should be clear.
And the formatting helpsstudents feel less, anxious.
I appreciated that your studentssaid that, like the using the AP
grading scale made sense becauseI think that referencing it to
(47:45):
something like a language theyalready speak, like an AP exam
helps it kind of find thatweight in reality for them,
which again, like grades arevery abstract and learning is
kind of an abstract thing.
And so, but I think that, youknow it requires that kind of
nuance.
And that's sort of like, theysaid, like, you know, languages
of subjectivity subjective.
And that's what, like, therubrics on the on the AP exam
(48:07):
are holistic, right?
Like, they're not, they're notthese, like, very specific
points.
They're pretty, I thinksubjective is not the right
word, but they're very, they'remore broad than like an analytic
rubric.
And so I think, you know, havingboth like analytic rubrics to
help push the performances, butthen the you know, holistic
grades that reflect thatlanguage acquisition is messy
and crazy.
Bryan (48:26):
yeah, something that really helped that has been
helping and I encourage everyoneto do is to look at exemplars.
So I.
Have students look at actualpast AP tests.
You know, the college boardposts them online.
So I'm like, Hey, let's look atthis.
What score do you think theyearned?
Let's talk about why.
That's the first thing we do.
And we continue doing thatthroughout the year.
(48:46):
And then I started doing that inmy low levels too.
I'm like, Hey, this student gota three.
Let's talk about why, or like,what score do you think this
student get?
And so they, they get a clearerpicture in their mind of like
what the performance they'reaiming for actually looks like.
FishRod (48:58):
Brian Girlboss is so hard that we'll let, we'll let
him have the, that final word.
Go forth, Gatekeep Girlboss, andslay.
bill (49:06):
Bye.
Bryan (49:07):
Bye.
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