Ep. 15: SLAyyy Supporting Students with Dyslexia with Sara Lee

Gaslight
Lack of Training and Preparation
Reading IEPs and 504s
Diagnosis - or No?

Gatekeep - Sara Lee, 2024 Southwest Conference on Language Teaching TOY
Formative Assessment to Evaluate Strengths and Needs
Teaching for Proficiency
What About Explicit Grammar Teaching?
Anxiety!
Theory: Mental-Graphemic Representation

Girlboss
Readable Fonts
Identify the “Easy” Spelling Rules
Differentiation
Alternatives to Writing
Pro Tip!
Equality and Equity: Are Accommodations “Fair?”
The Most Efficient Thing is the Thing That Benefits the Largest Number of Students
What is the Learner Able to Do?

References
Lexend Font
OpenDyslexic Font
Supporting Language Students with Dyslexia - blog post at The Comprehensible Classroom by Kelly Brandon and Elicia Cárdenas
German Educational Multiplier (GEM) Network for German Teachers

Text us about how you’ve Gaslit, or Girlbossed your language classroom.

Email us at [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

FishRod (00:00):
Hi everybody, and welcome back to Slay Second
Language Acquisition forEveryone.
This week we are honored to haveyet another guest who was
highlighted in the ActfulTeacher of the Year process.
Through this process, teachersacross our country get to learn
and meet and enjoy the expertiseand experience and wisdom of so

(00:22):
many teachers of so many greatindividuals that, that we just
got highlighted through thisprocess.
So we are very thrilled to haveyet another in Sarah Lee, who is
our guest today Sarah Lee.
It was the 2023 Arizona LanguageAssociation Teacher of the Year,
the 2024 Southwest Conference.
on language teaching teacher ofthe year and was an actual

(00:44):
teacher of the year candidate inNovember of 2024 representing
Southwest Colt.
And Sarah, we are so excitedthat you're here.
Welcome to the podcast.

Sara (00:53):
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
It's so great to be on here.

FishRod (00:57):
Yay.
so Sarah told us a little bitabout your teaching background,
what you teach, where you teachand how you got to where you are
now.

Sara (01:05):
Okay so I'm an associate teaching professor at Arizona
State University.
I'm teaching German, I'mteaching really all different
levels, from German 101 from thebeginners up to our higher
undergraduate classes.
I developed a fairy tales class,although I'm a linguist, so my
heart is really in everythinglinguistics and especially I

(01:27):
developed a class on languageand disability, and that is That
is my hard child.
So that is the class I I loveteaching.
Did I get here?
Oh my goodness.
This is, I mean, how, how muchtime do we have?
Right?
I I grew up in Germany.
I went to school in Germany.
I I.
I didn't quite know what to do,I was never a great student, and

(01:50):
now I know that I was never agreat student because it was all
just lecturing, and it was alljust like, totally not the way
that I learn, and absolutely notthe way that I teach and so I
was struggling in school, andthere was always the question,
oh, is she really?
you know, smart enough.
Do you think she can do it ornot?
And then eventually I was like,well, I'm at least nice to

(02:11):
children.
So I'm going to become anelementary school teacher
because it's like, you know, soyeah, so I did my, it's called
Erste Staatsexamen.
So it's kind of like a BA inelementary school teaching.
And then when I got my degree,They sent me for my teacher
training into the middle ofnowhere, you know German

(02:33):
Germany, in Sauerland, intiefster Sauerland.
And I was like, no.
And then my brother was actuallydoing a study abroad at Michigan
State.
And so I visited him and I waslike, I was talking to some
professors there and they werelike, Hey, don't you want a TA
ship?
We still have a TA ship open andyou could come and get your
master's here.
And I was like, okay.
And so I went to Michigan Stateand got my master's in German.

(02:57):
And then I went back to Germanyand I was thinking about what I
could do, for my master'sthesis, and my mom, I was really
interested in linguistics, andmy mom, she was a family
counselor, and she was workingwith a dyslexia institute in
Germany, and she was telling meabout it, and I was like, oh,
that sounds so interesting.

(03:19):
So I actually wrote my master'sthesis on dyslexia in German.
And then when I came back toGermany, I actually got an offer
to work at that DyslexiaInstitute.
And so I worked there for a fewyears and I really didn't want
to go back to Germany.
I felt like I wasn't ready, butmy parents were like, yeah, come

(03:39):
on and you have a job and thisis so awesome.
And well, and then I met myhusband who is from England, but
who actually just moved to theUS.
And so we had a long distancerelationship.
for a while.
And now I ended up here again.
And, then I was actually, Idesperately wanted to do, so I

(04:01):
got also my second so calledZweite Staatsexamen, so like a
master's in teaching for middleschool.
And I really wanted to teachmiddle school again because I
love middle schoolers becausethey, I think middle schoolers
need the best teachers becausethey have no idea who they are.

FishRod (04:17):
And how

Sara (04:18):
yeah, exactly.
You're an elementary schoolteacher and a high school
teacher.
both at the same time whenyou're teaching middle school.
And so that's why I, love middleschoolers.
And I wanted to start teachinghere in Arizona.
And it took forever to get myteaching credentials transferred
from Germany.
And during that time I got anoffer to teach at ASU because

(04:40):
they didn't care about myteaching credentials.
And so somehow I got stuckthere.
So that was my weird, weird wayto where I am right now.

FishRod (04:51):
life finds a way that's amazing.

Sara (04:54):
Yeah.

FishRod (04:55):
we we, I, I have to mention for the good of the
order that we are down a billthis evening cause he is not
feeling well.
But Bill and I are high schoolteachers.
I was a former middle schoolteacher and I think Brian is
teaching at the middle school inhis district.
Jerry teaching one course rightnow, Brian,

Bryan (05:11):
Yeah, I teach one course at the middle school and the
rest in the high school.
So.
Both.

FishRod (05:17):
that?
How's that middle school?

Bryan (05:19):
You know, it definitely takes a lot of energy, but I do
enjoy it because you're right,it is kind of like there, I
mean, there are middle schoolsthat are between like the
cuteness that you might see inelementary kids and then like
excitement about learning andalso like the ability to, you
know, do a little bit more thanyou might be able to go without

(05:40):
elementary kids.
So I like it.
But yeah, it definitely tires meout.

FishRod (05:44):
That's a personality thing.
That's so funny to find to finda middle school person here.
That's so great.
so it sounds like you had a lotof experience with professional
experience working specificallyin the realm of dyslexia.
And dyslexia therapy and servingstudents with dyslexia, and
we're so happy to have you onthe podcast to talk about this.
I think I'm speaking frompersonal experience.
Just as a general educationteacher, this feels like an area

(06:07):
where we don't get enoughprofessional development, or it
is spotty, or you have to seekit out and sometimes it is luck
if you come across a greatresource or great you know,
trainer, or whoever it is toshare these ideas with.
So we're so happy that you'rehere.
Brian, speaking now between meand Brian again as Gen Ed
teachers, Brian, where's somespots where we have in Gaslight

(06:28):
Land, where we have maybe notlived up to the promise of
serving our dyslexic students toour best?

Bryan (06:35):
You know, I have to admit, I've never had a dyslexic
student, so I can't say a wholelot.
But I mean, I guess I can talk abit about what I've tried to do
in case I might have a studentthat could be undiagnosed or
something like that.
I know that there are certain,like, I mean, this might be
something that you're planningto talk about, but I know that

(06:56):
there are certain fonts that,you know are easier for students
with dyslexia to read.
I think it's the ones that don'thave serif, and so I've tried to
make as many of my, like Textsthat I create for my class in
the language to use those, like,sans serif fonts.
And I think even for, like,students who don't have

(07:18):
dyslexia, it just seems a littlebit easier for them to read.
Like, they're already reading ina different language than their
first language, and so justmaking, like, presenting things
in a way that seemsapproachable.
Has seemed to, I mean, Iactually don't know if it's
effective because like I said, Idon't know, I don't think I've
had any students that havedyslexia, but I guess I'm just

(07:39):
saying that I'm open to learningmore.
What about you?

FishRod (07:43):
I think for me, I I had a couple moments this year where
I recognized that I had not readmy students IEPs or 504
documents.
And just to be totallytransparent, that's a, that's a
thing that I think is soimportant and you would hear me
say that in a presentation at aprofessional conference, like
the IEP is a legal document,read the individualized
education plan for each studentthat has one read all the 504

(08:07):
documents, understand theaccommodations and implement
them.
And I've had some moments thisyear where.
I have, I don't know.
I think I did this.
This is so embarrassing, but Imade a comment like, oh, you
know, like, oh, so and so'shandwriting, like, wow, sure is
lovely.
And they're like, I havedyslexia.
And I was like, I am so sorry.
I am the meanest person.
I am so, so sorry.

(08:28):
That's right.
It is totally not your fault.
You're learning anotherlanguage.
I'm so sorry.
But again, that was me.
Like, you know, we have a lot ofyou know, plates that we are
spending at the same time asteacher, but it really, really
is fundamental.
Yeah.
To do the universalaccessibility things like you
were talking about, Brian, but Ithink also then looking into the
specifics for the students thatare in the room, knowing them

(08:48):
very well, and then doing themwith fidelity.
Again, I'm so embarrassed thatthis happened, this, and this
was not super long ago.
So I'm like, Oh gosh.
So

Bryan (08:58):
Yeah.

FishRod (08:58):
everybody.

Bryan (09:00):
And I think, too, I believe, I mean, there is, I
mean, I'm sure there's overlap,but isn't there a difference
between dyslexia and dysgraphia?
Because I've had students withdysgraphia, who have trouble
with handwriting, which mightoverlap, but I don't believe is
exactly the same as dyslexia.

(09:20):
So, I've thought about thingsthat I've done to help those
students, which is mostlyallowing them to type.
Which is kind of a pretty simplesolution, although it comes with
lots of caveats because, youknow, as language teachers we
want students to learn how to beable to produce the language as
accurately as they can and withthe advent of spellcheck and

(09:43):
Students already not really, Imean, I think being able to use
a tool like spellcheck requireslike knowing what it's supposed
to look like.
And so sometimes I thinkstudents aren't using it as well
as, or as effectively as theycould be.
And so that's something elsethat I'm open to learning more
about.

FishRod (10:01):
I think the other thing too for me is that I, you know,
we talk a lot about acquisitionand that it's piecemeal and that
there is going to be influencefrom the first languages.
And so I always, I'm like,should I worry about dyslexia
here when I see this?
Or is this indicative of ordysgraphia?
You know, is this is indicativeof something, you know,

(10:22):
neurological or something that Ijust don't see or that is
undiagnosed, like you said, or.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That I apparently forgot to readand remember the documents
about, you know so like, what isthe difference between something
that is a developmental form forsomeone who's acquiring the
language for the first time andsomething that might give us
pause in that room might requireaccommodation, remediation, some
sort of extra support.

(10:44):
Then, lucky us, we have exactlythe person in the room that we
would want to talk to aboutthese things who, who winced
with me at my story ofembarrassment, but also is
celebrating our, you know, ourconversation and wanting to help
us move forward.
So, Sarah.
Please tell us, what do ourteachers need to know?
What does the S.
L.
A.
Y.
audience need to know to S.

(11:05):
L.
A.
Y.
supporting students withdyslexia in the classroom?

Sara (11:08):
Okay.
And the, the most importantthing dear Slayers, is really
to, for you to listen to thisand to be interested is the most
important thing because thepoint is that, that we rarely in
our teacher training we don'treally hear about dyslexia.

(11:30):
It's just not one of these bigthings.
So what helps our students withdyslexia the most by far is to
have you on their side.
And even if you're, if yourealize afterwards, oh my
goodness, I shouldn't have saidthat, saying, I'm so sorry, that
was mean, or that wasn't good,and showing them your human side
and saying, hey, this was amistake I made, because I'm

(11:53):
human as well, right, that makesyou relatable, and that makes
you relatable.
Human.
And so for you to show thisinterest in, in your students
and just trying to, to be therefor them and have understanding,
that is 90 percent of, of yourjob.
So even if a student is comingto you and is saying, Hey I'm

(12:14):
struggling with this.
And you say, okay, I hear you.
Let's sit down.
Let's talk about it.
That's 90%.
And now I'm going to tell youabout the other 10%.
So

FishRod (12:22):
Thank you, thank you for I will sleep easier tonight.
for that, thank you for that.

Sara (12:27):
I mean, honestly, this

FishRod (12:28):
That is

Sara (12:30):
is to, to show that empathy and to show them that we
believe in them and that they,that their worries are, are
meaningful to us and that wetake them seriously is more
important than anything else.
That just, that's just foreverything.
It comes to, you've talked aboutso much, you've talked about the
IEP and the 504 and, and allthat.

(12:52):
Yeah.
I think something, some, youcall it the gaslighting that's
still going on, that I wouldreally, really like to address
overall, and that is my overallgoal before I retire, I hope
that I'm going to be gettingthere, so I only have another
couple of decades to do that, isto, is to get away from has this

(13:15):
or has a diagnosis of this,because the truth is that When
you think of, and we are gettingmore into the understanding of,
that there is this range.
For someone to say, this personhas dyslexia and this person
doesn't have dyslexia, it needsjust a completely random person
to say, this is where we call itdyslexia and this is where we're

(13:38):
not calling it dyslexia.
And that is just completelyunrealistic.
We cannot rely on just having anarbitrary point where we say now
a person has a diagnosis,because the truth is that as
teachers, what we have to do iswe have to take each student,
each learner in their ownmakeup, in their strength and in

(13:59):
their challenges, and we'relooking at what are their needs
and how can we help them.
So actually, my goal would be toget away from the diagnosis,
that we get away from having aword for What someone is or what
they have and going towardslet's address the heterogeneity
that we have in our classroomand say this these are the needs

(14:21):
of the students and this is howwe help them and that is also
something that I'm trying to doin my workshops that I'm saying
it is not our job job to have adiagnosis it's not our job to
say If this child is presentingor this learner is presenting
with this, this disabilitywe're, so to say, are going to
give them our teacher medicine,right?
That's not how it works.
But we're saying what our jobis, we're looking at what, what

(14:43):
do they show and whatproficiency levels do they show
already and what skills havethey acquired already and which
skills have Do they, have theynot acquired and therefore we
have to look at them.
So really the, the mostimportant first step is an
assessment and that sounds like,Oh my goodness, how should I
know what, how to do anassessment?
Because I'm just a regularlanguage teacher.

(15:04):
I'm not a dyslexia specialist,right?
But assessment is as simple as.
What we do all the time everyday in our classroom is we have
a, for example, a written textand we're looking at what are
developmentally appropriateerrors that we, when it comes to
spelling, that we expect of ourlearners, and what are errors
that are maybe out of the norm,and why are they out of the

(15:26):
norm.
for example, if I have astudent, and we do that all the
time, if I have a student whoconstantly doesn't use any
capitalization in their writing,what we would do as teachers is
we say, okay, let's talk aboutcapitalization, right?
And that's what we do with allother spelling errors as well.
What we can do best as teachersis to look at what our learners

(15:48):
present to us not just theerrors that they make, but also
the skills that they havealready acquired, so we know
what their strength is and howwe can build on that, and at the
same time, what, where can weaddress something that they may
not have acquired yet.
And that is, sounds, I know thatsounds like, okay, that's great
theory, but how do you put thatinto practice, right?

(16:10):
So, of course a lot harder, butthere is this ideal of what you
can do if you had all thisknowledge about, you know, the
linguistics of it and thedyslexia and how to help someone
and auditory processing and allthat goes into it.
but you can always start withthe tools that you already have
and the tools that you alreadyuse, and that's my best advice

(16:32):
for, for teachers to startthere.

FishRod (16:35):
a relief to hear and that's interesting.
What I've been thinking aboutwhile you've been talking about
this is that I'm going from theassumption that we're giving
assessments of real languageuse, as in teaching for
proficiency, right?
That we are not, you know,hammering a grammar point and
then testing the hammering ofthat grammar point.
That we're learning about theworld you know, through

(16:56):
interpretive texts and, andlistening texts and
conversations and havinginterpersonal discussions and
pairs and and then givingpresentational tasks that these
are tied to actual communicationhow does the, like, grammar
hammer teaching world kind ofinto this or how does it, how
can a heavy focus on explicitgrammar maybe be harmful or

(17:19):
maybe like what could be theeffects of that, I guess, for a
dyslexic learner or for general,you know, for a learner without
dyslexia.
Hmm.

Sara (17:38):
Because you may get very different answers depending on
who you're asking.
so from a dyslexia standpoint,I've actually, my experience is
that there are students andlearners who actually appreciate
this grammar hammering becauseit is something that they have
control over.
When they have such problem withreading and spelling and
writing.
Then they feel like they're,they're, it's chaos and they,

(17:58):
they're not in control.
And so grammar is a verycontrolled thing and a logical
thing that they can apply andthat they feel like they can
actually, they can be successfulin.
So as a short term psychologicalaspect, it's definitely Good to
do that.
Putting on my teacher hat.
Don't do that.
Don't do grammar

FishRod (18:17):
Yes.

Sara (18:17):
grammar

FishRod (18:18):
Thank you.

Sara (18:19):
It's like, I'm so opinionated about that because
this is about proficiency andcommunication.
And this is like sending ourkids out there to be able to
speak and to enjoy and you know,dive into the culture.
So let's stop with this fanaticfocus on grammar, because that's
just, sorry, that just my, Ispoke there from, from my

(18:42):
teacher heart.

FishRod (18:44):
Okay.
That is a welcome viewpoint inthis podcast.

Bryan (18:46):
It's interesting to hear you say this because it's kind
of like making my wheels turnand think back to things that
have happened, like hearingcomments from students about
how, you know, I really justwant to do worksheets.
And like, just really thinkinglike, what could possibly make a
teenager want to do worksheets.
And so then I think like, well,maybe they might have, you know,

(19:06):
some degree of dyslexia or somekind of reason behind wanting
that, you know, that's not just,I don't like the activities that
we're doing in class, you know,like there could be something
behind that kind of comment.

Sara (19:20):
Oh, absolutely.
Because in order to be enjoyinga fully Like a class that is
really just focused onproficiency and speaking and you
have to put yourself out there.
It's freaking exhausting to behaving these come like to come
to never know what's coming,right?
When you think of, I don't knowif you've ever like talked about

(19:40):
executive functions, but theexecutive function of like
having this mental flexibility.
That is in our classroom 100%.
So it is actually a mentalrelief for our students to just
do worksheets.
And that's not just for studentswith dyslexia.
That's for a lot of students.
And that's why they're cravingit sometimes because they, they
need a break from our creative,communicative classroom.

FishRod (20:03):
I mean, yeah, the true interpersonal communication
does, you don't know what theother person is going to say,
like, in the, in the mark of agood interpersonal task is that
you don't know what they'regoing to say in advance that
you're seeking some sort of newinformation or to come to a
compromise or agreement.
And I can see, I can very muchsee how, you know, that, that,
that, that kind of uncertaintywhere you enter with it.

(20:24):
And that is where a lot of themagic in our language teaching
happens that we feel so much joyfrom that something unexpected
happens.
Someone makes an unexpectedcomment about something and it
really feels a discussion or,you know you know, a total side
path that you go into theconversation where you fall down
a rabbit hole together.
And that's delightful.
I always tell my kids like,don't get me started on like
East Germany stuff.

(20:44):
Cause I lived in the former Eastand that is just like, I will
just go, I'll be like, Oh, youwant to talk about that?
And like, blah, blah, blah.
But that's the joy of it, butthe danger then is, yeah, you're
in a very uncontrolled, like,the purpose is that it is
uncontrolled and that whathappens next, question mark,
maybe it's good, maybe it's bad.

Sara (21:02):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
I always, I picture it stillwhen, you know, when you're a 14
year old teenager and you'rejust thinking that the whole
world is constantly looking atyou and just waiting for you to
do, like, the wrong step and,like, you're so hyper aware of,
like, your peer group and theclass and feeling like you're
constantly, you have the focuson you constantly, and I feel,

(21:25):
and I think that's even Mm hmm.
For my college students, whenthey come into the classroom,
you have to be really willing tobe vulnerable in our classroom
to start learning a language theway we teach it.
And I appreciate that aboutevery one of my students.
At the same time, I think thereare a lot of ways of making it
more, making it easier for them.
So for example, when I work withstudents who have super high

(21:48):
anxiety, I, for example, I askthem if they feel better when we
do partner or group speakingassessments, I sometimes sit
with my back to them so theydon't feel watched.
while they are speaking to lowerthe anxiety levels that they
have.
And I think that is, again, thisgoes back to what I said at the

(22:09):
beginning, when we as teachersjust show respect for them and
for their mental health in that,you know, in our classroom, I
think it is so incrediblyimportant to support them and,
and to just do everything toshow them that we take them
seriously.

FishRod (22:25):
Excellent.
I'm hearing approach them,approach each learner as
individuals and try tounderstand their strengths and
where they're coming from andhow they're attacking any sort
of, you know, communicativetask.
Know, and get away from labelingas much as we can.
I think those are useful tostart conversations, but they
are not the end of theconversation.

Sara (22:42):
Right.

FishRod (22:43):
and what are some other strategies?
What are some other things thatmaybe through your experience or
research that you found to justlike that really support those
students with dyslexia,

Sara (22:53):
Mm hmm.

FishRod (22:53):
further along?

Sara (22:54):
Mm hmm.
So, something that I would liketo, to share with you guys, and
of course, all the listeners, ifyou're interested, so one of the
things that I like to do to giveyou A feeling for how, what it,
what it's like to be a learnerwith dyslexia is So, usually,
how we start learning alanguage, and this is for the

(23:14):
first language that we learn howto read and write, is that We
are learning, usually aroundpreschool age, that there are
certain sounds, and the soundsare connected to letters, right?
So when we learn to, to write,we are thinking about what do we
want to write, we have a word, acertain word, for example, mom,
and then we are learning thatthat consists of the sounds and

(23:35):
then we're trying to findletters that are representing
those sounds.
The next step of, and thenpretty much when we're reading,
it's the other way around.
We see the letters and we'retrying to make sense of them as
the phonemes, so the sounds.
And then the next step that ishappening almost parallel is
when we have, for example, inEnglish, the sight words.
So and a good, way to show youhow that works is Oh, actually,

(23:59):
I want you to unmute yourself.
And I want you to, ah, I know Iwant you to to speak while you
think you have to speak outloud.
I want you to say the wordtomato backwards for me.

FishRod (24:13):
Oooooooots.
O'tem, O'tem.

Sara (24:18):
Ah,

Bryan (24:18):
I can't do it.
I don't know.

FishRod (24:20):
us.

Sara (24:21):
beautiful.
Okay, so I have to tell thelisteners what just happened
because I can see you two.
So what just happened is both ofthem actually looked up.
Like, either to the left or theright, they opened their eyes a
little bit wider, and they weretrying to see the word in front
of their, in their eye.
They were trying to read the,the word backwards.

(24:44):
They were seeing the image, andthey were trying to read it
backwards.
By the way, I would never, everdo this in a classroom where
without, I'm telling you, hey,just, do this now.
And you could actually, by theway, also a little bit see how
you were like, Oh my goodness,what's she doing now with us?
So, so

FishRod (25:01):
talking about anxiety.
Please.

Sara (25:03):
So yes, please don't do that with your own people.
I feel comfortable enough that Ithink, I hope, you know.
Yeah, you may not invite meback, but so what just happened
is you all looked up, you bothlooked up and you try to see the
word written in front of yourMRI, and then you try to read it
backwards.
What that is, it's the so calledmental graphemic representation.

(25:23):
So what your brain does is it'staking pretty much the picture,
the written picture, and youstore it in front of your NRI,
and you can pull it up wheneveryou need it.
So when you're reading, you'renot translating letters to
sounds anymore, but you see theword as a whole.
Your brain is telling you, oh,this is the word umbrella.
If you see these letters, andmaybe you've seen those funny

(25:45):
things when the letters arescrambled, but if you have the
first and last letter and youstill know what the content,
yeah, it's like it's going, it'sall over social media, right?
That's you activating yourmental graphemic representation.
where your brain is saying, Hey,in that combination, it is most
likely this word.
And especially if I have a wholesentence.
this mental graphemicrepresentation is super

(26:05):
important when we're reading, ofcourse, because we're doing the
so called whole word reading,but it's also important when
we're writing because we're nottranslating.
sounds into letters anymore whenwe're right, but what you do is
pretty much you just copy itfrom the inner eye that you have
and you copy the word there andthen you probably know when you
write a text that you say, oh,that, that word looks weird.

(26:28):
Let me double check.
you have that feeling, what yourbrain is doing, it's telling you
Hey, this doesn't work.
Like, this mental graphemicrepresentation that I have does
not match what you just wrote,so let's go back.
And if you're unsure, then youcan maybe apply some rules.
So what's happening is, if Igave you a new word that doesn't

(26:48):
exist, you could not just, you,you don't have to go back to
the, to this phoneme graphemecorrespondence, so the letter
sound correspondence.
But what you do is your braineven Internalizes spelling
structures that are very common.
So in English, for example, thesuper silent E at the end, at at
the end, right Plain and sameand game.

(27:11):
So if I ask you, how would youwrite the words?
Now I can't think of one theyall exist tame and fame.
And ba if I ask you how to spellit, how to spell the word ba,
you could probably either sayBAME, or BAIE b.
A I M, BAME, because you wouldyou would transfer those

(27:35):
structures that you haveinternalized to new words
without even thinking aboutthem, without knowing those
spelling rules.
And so when we talk aboutdyslexia, we have pretty much
the severity of dyslexia, whereI said it's You know, the, the
starting point of dyslexia isartificially chosen by our
society.
But what's really happening iswhen you are a very, very strong

(27:59):
speller, then your phonemegrapheme correspondence, so the
sound letter correspondence, andyour mental graphemic
representation are super strong.
And you can see that with, youknow, if you did this tomato
thing, some people can do itimmediately.
because they have such strongmentographemic representation.
the more intense the dyslexiais, the more the person is going

(28:22):
to struggle.
So almost all people with adiagnosed dyslexia are having
mentographemic representationproblems.
And if you have a very severedyslexia, then you actually have
phoneme grapheme correspondenceproblems.
So problems with the with theprocessing of the phonemes and
the auditory processing and thephonological processing are then

(28:43):
really impacted.

Bryan (28:44):
This is fascinating.
Thank you for sharing that withus.

FishRod (28:47):
Yes.
I'm thinking then about likewhen, when we, we make that
transfer, you know me and Sarahare, have the luck, the luxury
of teaching the world's mostbeautiful language, which is
German.
And then the phoneme, graphemecorrespondence is pretty high in
Spanish as well.
Brian has the distinct pleasureof teaching French, which is fun

(29:09):
and special when it comes tospelling.
But I'm thinking from the, onthe spectrum from, you know,
German, which is fairly, fairlyone to one in most cases in
terms of like, this looks likethis, sounds like this, and you
can sound it out pretty prettystraightforwardly, and Spanish
is fairly similar all the way tolanguages like English or French
that have, you know, or I'm, Idon't know how to pronounce

(29:30):
Gaelic, and so when I see allthose letters, I, you know, go
like, well, what's happeningthere What are some ways that we
can support, what are thestrategies then, is it, does it
help to say things like, youknow, like, Oh, in German, when
you see this letter, it makesthis sound always like, and I
think that just feels like bestpractice anyways, but is that
something that we do more?
Is that something we emphasize?
Like, what, what do we do?

Sara (29:50):
that's such a, such a, there's so many wonderful
questions in there.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
So, anything that, that isreally building up this, the,
the phonological processing, sohelping our students, because
it's not, it's on the one hand,it is, being able to
differentiate the sounds inhearing, but it's also being
able then to produce thosesounds.

(30:11):
And if I can't differentiatethem in hearing, I'm not going
to be able to produce them.
So especially when we also havenew sounds that are new to the
language, it actually takespractice to keep on saying them
and then also being able to hearthem and then also being able to
say that.
what's up, what's really, reallyinteresting is and very, very
difficult when it comes todyslexia and second language

(30:33):
acquisition.
It can present significantlydifferent from first language
acquisition if we do use theseold terms of first language,
second language, right?
So I mean them in the broadestterm possible.
Because if you are a, if yougrew up monolingual with German,
in Germany, Yeah.
Yeah.
Because German, exactly like yousaid, is so much straightforward

(30:55):
when it comes to spelling, only,only about 10 percent of people
are have a diagnosis ofdyslexia, whereas in English
speaking countries usually thenumber is around 20%.
And that is not because are somuch smarter.
No, it really is not.

(31:16):
But it simply has to do with thelinguistic makeup of the
language.
And that also means We have tolook at what was the language
that the learner really startedto write and read, and what is
our second language, so how arethey interconnected, which
means, in translation, if I'm aGerman speaker who wasn't

(31:36):
considered Having dyslexia inGerman growing up, and then I
learn English, and suddenly I'mreally struggling because
English is not asstraightforward.
The other way around, my Englishspeakers who grew up here
speaking English and who arelearning German, they suddenly
show far fewer spelling errorsand have less problems with

(31:57):
reading because German is somuch more straightforward.
Which also means, my dearlisteners, please advocate for
people learning German becauseit is so much easier.
Sorry, I just had

FishRod (32:11):
Sorry, sorry.

Sara (32:13):
This is not just something I say because I teach German,
but this is something I saybecause I truly mean it when it
comes to Latin, when it comes toSpanish, when it comes to
German.
It is so much easier to studythose languages for when you
know that you have trouble withthe grammar.
Okay.
Mental morphemic representationor the phoneme grapheme
correspondence.
100%.

FishRod (32:35):
then more, you know, is going to have to do a lot more
like you're going to see a lotof letters that look like this
and it's going to make thissound just like very strongly
make those connections for them.

Bryan (32:44):
So hearing you say that made me wonder about, you know,
non alphabetic languages such asJapanese, which is another
language that I know.
So I just did a quick Googlesearch as you were talking
because I was curious, like,what is the rate of dyslexia in
Japan?
And I'm seeing a study that saysit's 0.
98 percent, which says it's 10times lower than Western

(33:04):
countries.
And you know, like, I Ipersonally have the experience
of learning Japanese as a newlanguage, and there are like
three different writing systemsin one, and it can be very
challenging for people for whomthat's not their first language,
so that's very surprising to meto To see that the rate of
diagnosed dyslexia is so low incomparison to, you know, English

(33:25):
speaking countries.
And, I mean, I guess I don'treally know why, but it's just a
curious data point.

Sara (33:32):
It, it really, really is.
And there's so much that goesinto it, because at the same
time, because most of the, ofthese Asian languages, they are,
when you look at the I don'tknow the exact numbers, but how
many hours it takes to get to acertain proficiency level, you
know, those languages are theones that take forever, because
pretty much in Japanese 101, thegoal is to know at the end a

(33:55):
certain amount, like a smallamount of words, because they
are so much harder to, tomemorize.
Whereas when I take German orFrench, at the end of 101,
imagine how many hundred wordsthey are supposed to know, and
when it comes to writing, howpretty much they should be able
to write.
Almost everything, even if theydon't know the meaning of the

(34:15):
word.
So that is, I mean, that isdefinitely one of the things.
The other thing that's alsoreally important to mention is,
we're always talking aboutdyslexia, but dyslexia is one of
those one of those learningdisabilities.
that often comes with a lot ofcomorbidities.
So it is really, reallydifficult to say when it comes

(34:36):
to, for example, the visualprocessing.
So is the visual processing alsoimpacted by this learning
disability, yes or no?
No.
And this is really hard todifferentiate what is a
comorbidity, what is maybe adifferent disability that, that
goes with it.
Maybe the dyslexia is, oh, Justthe the consequence of something

(34:59):
else that is there.
So that's why I'm, coming backto what I said at the beginning.
Thankfully, we as teachers, itis not our responsibility to
diagnose people.
It is not our responsibility.
I Barely ever, no, I never, likeI, when someone comes to me and
shares that they have, that theyhave dyslexia, then I say, okay,

(35:21):
thank you for letting me know,but what I really trust is that
I'm looking at their proficiencyand their errors and how they
work, because that's where theyneed help, and not everyone who
is diagnosed with dyslexia isstruggling in my classroom, and
I have a lot of people who arestruggling in my classroom who
are not diagnosed, so it's notmy job to diagnose them, and
it's not my job to say, I onlydo this if you have a diagnosis

(35:44):
of this kind or that kind, butin the end what matters to us is
helping each individual student.
And picking them up where theyare and trying to help them as
best as we can.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.

FishRod (35:56):
Brian kind of alluded this to this earlier about the
kind of, you know, what are somelow hanging fruit kind of like
tier one interventions that weapply to the entire class.
And he was talking about.
font.
I also got on the like dyslexiafriendly font train.
I use Lex end for most of mytyped resources.
I make myself and there wasanother one.
I think there was one, it wascalled open that was like a, an

(36:18):
open source dyslexia friendlyfont as well.
And I can't remember the exactname of it.
I'll find it in the backgroundin just a second.
So using dyslexia friendly fontsand obviously trying to make
our.
less cluttered.
I think that helps a lot ofstudents, especially who
approach reading with anxiety,just to, you know, about blocks
of text.
That's going to help morestudents than just the students

(36:41):
with dyslexia.
Working on strong to show thesounds of the language, like,
oh, you know, in English, thismight make this sound, but in
German, it makes this sound,like making, helping make those
correspondences more explicitand clear as we're still
communicating in the languageand using the language for
communication.
What are some other kind of, Idon't know, maybe low hanging
fruit practices that we canapply in our classroom that will

(37:03):
serve everyone in the end,

Sara (37:05):
Mm

FishRod (37:05):
then also maybe specifically give a boost to our
dyslexic students.

Sara (37:08):
Yeah, that's, that's a great question.
So, really the most importantthing for us as teachers is to
realize if, if you, if we were,let's be honest, talk about the
ideal.
The ideal is that we have ateacher who is a trained
linguist when it comes todyslexia, who knows about
dyslexia in the first language,in the second language, and who,

(37:32):
who has at least 20 hours a weekto just work with this one
student.
So, just not happening.
Like, I I'm trying to do as muchas I can, but when I talk about
the ideal, situation, I'm notdoing that because I don't have
the time.
And I have small classes stilldon't have the time to do it
because it's unrealistic.

(37:52):
So we have to get away from thisideal and we have to see what
works for our classroom.
So rather than addressing thedyslexia itself, the best that
we can do when it comes toaddressing the dyslexia would be
the you know, the, the phonetictraining that we do with them
and to work with the with thespelling.

(38:14):
Rules that are easy.
So for example, for German, itwould be the capitalization of
the nouns or for English, itwould be with a super silent E
at the end.
So something that is true for,let's say 90, 90, 95 percent of
the time, and it's easy to dothat.
So that is when it comes tospelling.
For everything else, the, the,the low hanging fruit that you

(38:34):
can do that are especially likereally, really efficient is to
make our classroom easier forour students with dyslexia.
So, for example, if yourstudents are old enough and it's
you're allowed to do that, letthem take pictures of, for
example, the whiteboard or of aPowerPoint, rather than having
them write something down.
So whenever you can avoidwriting in the classroom, avoid

(38:57):
it.
Have them do something else.
Have them do it in, in Verbalform.
So, instead of a vocab quiz, dothe vocab quiz if it's really
about the meaning of the word.
Just do a quick oral test, andhowever you give the test, the
vocab quiz in written form, justdo the same thing in oral form.

(39:17):
So, that would already take alot of pressure from the
student.
When it comes to writing in agroup, let them decide, the
group decide who's going towrite on the whiteboard.
So the person who's really,really afraid to write on the
whiteboard because they could,you know, make spelling errors,
don't do that.
Don't ever have someone read outloud in class who doesn't want

(39:38):
to do it.
Always choose.
And I love that both of you are,like, nodding, like, of course,
right?
And this is, that makes me sohappy because see how you are
already doing exactly the rightthing without, because you're
like, yes, absolutely.
Ben is by the way, dancing rightnow.
I wish you could see that.
So like a lot of the things thatwe do anyways, in order to not

(40:03):
have students have this highanxiety.
And when we just translate thatto reading and writing, that is
the best you can do for yourstudents, the low hanging fruit,
but low hanging means.
sounds like they're notefficient.
That's actually the mostimportant thing you can do
because it is the everyday thingthat makes your students feel
comfortable in your classroom.
And so if you do that, see,you're already doing all the

(40:26):
right things.

FishRod (40:28):
Come for

Bryan (40:29):
I just

FishRod (40:29):
for the affirmation.

Bryan (40:31):
It makes me kind of reflect on my own, like, teacher
education.
And, you know, like, back in theday when I was learning about
different disabilities and howto support students, I felt like
I felt a huge amount of pressureof, I need to be the expert on
every possible kind of student,and I must have 100 different
strategies that I can pull outof my, you know, giant tool belt

(40:52):
or whatever, and, you know, knowexactly, like a surgeon, when to
apply them.
But, like you said, the mostefficient thing is the thing
that benefits the largest numberof students, and that's the best
thing that we can do, because ifwe are just, you know, having
that pressure on ourselves ofhaving to, you know, be perfect
all the time, like, that's justnot realistic.

(41:13):
And then we'll start to feel badabout it and then feel, like,
doubt our own teaching skills.
But I think the best teachersknow that, like, like you said,
it's just those universalpractices that benefit most to
all students whether they haveany kind of diagnosis or not.
So yeah, just, I hope people canreflect on that for themselves
too.

Sara (41:33):
and, and I think, and there's, this is, this is so
important, exactly what you justsaid.
If you, Brian, if you asked yourstudents, if you meet them ten
years later, and you ask them,Hey, what did you like about my
class?
Or why did you continue learningFrench?
They're gonna either say,because you made class fun, Or,

(41:53):
because I felt good aboutFrench.
Or because you, you made me feelgood in that class.
And that is all, those are allthe things.
So, it always comes back tothat.
I do have actually, I was justthinking of one little trick
that may be new to you, that I,that I love to do.
Which is, When you have studentswrite a text and when you ask

(42:16):
them to check their own text,when we, when we talk about the
metrographemic representation,so this picture that you have in
front of your NRI our brain is,when we're reading what our

FishRod (42:28):
Okay.
So this is a.
This is a, this is a.
This is a.
This is a.

Sara (42:40):
what comes next.
So a really great tip what to dois to tell the students to read
their text backwards.
So start with the last word andthen the second last to last and
then the third to last.
Because this way you're forcingyour mental graphemic
representation to focus on eachword because it's not about the
context, but it is about eachindividual word.

(43:00):
So isolating this word for yourmantrographemic representation
is really an efficient tool tofind errors.

FishRod (43:06):
We were not nodding vigorously while she said this
because we were both going, Oh,you know, like internally mind
blown.
Amazing.
I hear sometimes, you know wecan do our best efforts to make
it.
Yeah.
A student's students, allstudents feel comfortable and
implement these best practices alow anxiety classroom that
really serves everyone's brains.
And, know, we're doing the bestwe can.

(43:28):
And like Brian said, we can'tbeat ourselves up for not being
the expert on every single thingthat a kid could bring into the
classroom, but they also bringattitudes from outside the
classroom into the classroomabout the world, but then about
themselves as well.
I'm thinking, do you have anyadvice or thoughts about, you
know, a student, I have had astudent say, you know, I can't
read and they're in high schooland they're clearly have been

(43:49):
reading for a long time inEnglish.
You know, you're passing theirclasses and moving on and say,
and have knowledge of the world.
And, you know, so there's still,they're learning through
reading, but are still coming inwith that mindset.
Do you have any advice for howwe might address that?

Sara (44:02):
that's such a great question.
Yes, absolutely.
So I would always start withwhat are, what is the learner
able to do?
So, when they say, I can't read,then I would say, well, you
can't read a word, you can'tread your name, where does it
start, and pretty much puttingthe responsibility back on them
and saying you know, for them toand when they say, well, I don't

(44:26):
think I can read a wholesentence in German, then I'm
happy that they give me thatinformation, because even though
I may think, well, that is nottrue, you can, that's, that's
how they feel, and that's howthey may downplay their ability,
because they're so afraid offailing and failure, so they
want, they want to downplay whatthey can actually do and cannot
do.
So, if you do have the time, todo that, to sit down with a

(44:50):
learner, and then pretty muchstart on, even if it's just the
one word, even if it's like thesimplest word that you work with
in 101 but, and then just throwa lot of praise at them, because
I, I mean, taught all ages fromelementary school now to college
kids, and I have, I've yet tomeet a learner who doesn't love

(45:11):
praise.
And so I think that that is ourstrongest tool that we really
have.
So I would, I would absolutely,absolutely start there.
I do have kind of like a moralquestion or moral problem,
though, for you, I'm reallycurious to hear your, your
opinion, and then I can give youmy opinion or my thoughts on it.

(45:32):
So when it comes toaccommodations, when it comes to
accommodations, a discussionthat I always, or often have
with, with my fellow teachers isaccommodations are fair?
So we're talking about equity,right?
We're talking about equality.
Ideally, we want to achieveequity, so picking them up where

(45:55):
they are and helping themaccordingly being successful.
And we have that conversation alot at the university level,
where the question is, well, ifthese students get more time,
for example, to take a test, orif I don't grade their spelling
errors, but they get the samedegree than someone else, didn't
get these accommodations, is thedegree worth the same if you get

(46:17):
a degree with accommodations?
And that's the same with a highschool diploma, right?
When the student or the learneralways had double the time for
everything, is it worth the sameas for someone who didn't have
double the time?
that is, yeah, I want to hearyour opinion on this or your
thoughts on this.

FishRod (46:35):
My first instinct when you started talking about this
is wondering about like isspecific time pressures Why are
the time pressures there?
Is the exam an hour becauseclass is an hour long?
Is in that is convenient for meto grade and us and plan for?
You know, what what are the timepressures specifically for
things that you get more time?

(46:57):
I also think about how the taskwould be applied in the real
world and, you know, sometimesI'll see notes about
presentational tasks or, or, youknow, commentary about
presentational tasks wherestudents are directed to give
speeches off the cuff or, orwhatever it is, or, you know,
all these sorts of things forwhich they don't have
preparation, but for which I, inthe real world, If I were giving

(47:18):
a presentation, even to mycolleagues, who know that I'm a
teacher and, you know,improvising sometimes and that
sort of thing, I might, I wouldmight still prepare myself some
notes to look down at.
So I think it's for me that myfirst question is, can I look at
the things that I'm asking themto do and asking what are these
constraints that I'm placing ontheir performance are just
artificial?
There because of my convenienceor because of the structure of

(47:40):
our school and, and, and such,or is it something that is
necessary I might, you know,give access to a dictionary if,
you know, if they are polishingup a piece of presentational
writing, but they're not goingto have access to that in a live
interpersonal conversation.
So that does not seem like a,you know, like a logical
accommodation and stuff likethat.
So I think really being clearwith yourself about the task and

(48:00):
what those.
Yes.
restrictions are before youstart, you know, devaluing the
work that the student producedwith the little boost.

Bryan (48:08):
As an advocate for standards based grading, I would
encourage all teachers to focuson what is it that you want
students to learn from yourclass and know, like, what are
the outcomes that are expectedand how is that It has to be
generalizable so that it is notjust about you are able to take
a one hour long test.

(48:29):
It should be something like youare able to communicate in the
language using this amount of,you know, these kinds of
structure about these kinds oftopics.
And that can Manifest in a lotof different ways and if it can
manifest in a lot of differentways, like you could have them
do a project, you could havethem do an oral assessment,
whatever, whatever.
Why would you then say that astudent who needs accommodations

(48:53):
that can do those things in thisspecific way shouldn't deserve
the same benefits as a studentwho meets the criteria?
meets the standards in adifferent way.
Like, I just, I, I don't, Iwould not be able to defend the
argument that those things arenot fair.
In fact, making them separate,or, you know, not equal would be

(49:14):
very unfair.
Because students haveaccommodations for a very good
reason.
And I think that if we have,like, very clear in our minds,
again, what our expectations arefor our students, and they are
something that can be assessedin a variety of different ways,
then that should includemodifications or, you know, to

(49:36):
the, the constraints of theassessments.

Sara (49:39):
And this is why you two are amazing teachers, because
that would have been 100 percentmy response to this.
If we do true proficiency basedteaching and assessments then,
and using universal design tounderstand that there is
different different pathways totesting proficiency, then we

(50:00):
don't have this challenge andthis is not what our world looks
like.
Like my students who aregraduating and going into the
workforce, they are not going tobe sitting down to take
standardized tests, right?
They are, they are working,they're having jobs where they
are applying what they've, whatthey've learned and how they,
what they've learned.
They're growing constantly intheir job.

(50:22):
And so that's exactly.
I thought I wanted to make it alittle challenging for you and
you just, you are the best.
That is awesome.

FishRod (50:31):
We both ate our pre, our pre podcast snack and came
ready to play.
We were, were ready.

Sara (50:38):
awesome.
This is really great.
It makes me so happy that yousaid that.

Bryan (50:42):
And I guess I, like, I can hear the concern that a
teacher who might I say thatwhen being presented with, you
know, challenging thoughts, suchas, like, you know, is this
fair, is this equitable, becausethey just, they might just have
it in their mind that, fair isequal, rather than fair is

(51:02):
equitable, and, like, I thinkpeople throw the word equity
around it without necessarilyknowing what it means, and it
necessarily means that thingsare different for different
people because people needdifferent things.
So

Sara (51:15):
yes, yes, 100%.
And that's why, I think it isalso going back to, we shouldn't
have groups.
That's why, you know, I find theword inclusion is so important,
but at the same time, so, sodangerous, because it means that
you're a special group and thatyou you need to You know, what's
normal?

(51:35):
I always say when we talk aboutdisability, when we talk about
neurodiversity, we have todefine a normal and normal is
non existent.
Every, every, label that we puton people is, is just an
arbitrary label that societydecided this is where it starts
or this is when, when you getthis label.
And so understanding it asAgain, this heterogeneity,

(51:57):
everyone has their own needs andstrength.
And this is what we're buildingon.
And we are all one group withour with our abilities.
I think that's super important.
And that's why a lot of thethings that we talked today
about with taking the picturesor something like maybe allowing
an audio book when you when youdon't like you know, like my 14

(52:18):
year old just had to read a bookand said, you know what, I
really would prefer to listen tothe audio book because I, I like
that as input.
And I was like, go ahead.
Yeah, absolutely.
Perfect.
You know, and like having all ofthese.
all these teacher tricks that weuse and allowing that for the
whole class and saying, yeah,pick whatever you need and what

(52:38):
works for you.
And I'm your biggest fan ofgiving this to you and fearing
you on.
I think that is, that isabsolutely the way to go.

Bryan (52:47):
I just want to add one more comment like I'm just
reflecting back on aconversation that I had recently
at my school at our leadershipmeeting where we basically
talked about this very thing andthey're like, you know like how
many minutes is double time andlike, is it fair if we give like
two extra minutes and all thesethings and I was just like,
Okay.
What are you guys talking about?

(53:07):
If my student comes to me andsays, Hey, I need more time, I
give it to them.
I don't ask questions.
I want them to finish.
So I give it to them.
That's my opinion on that.

Sara (53:16):
Thank you for that.
So important.
So important.

FishRod (53:20):
Amazing.
We have, we have been girlbossing so hard.
We we have, we have girl busedto the moon and back in this in
this podcast.
And we're, again, we're sothankful that you're here to, to
talk about this.
To, to maybe to, as a way ofwrapping up the, the girl
bossing that we have been doing,we seamlessly transitioned into,
looking at the current landscapeof education policy and changes

(53:43):
that might be coming down thepipeline at the local or state
or national level, is there any,you know, encouragement or
thoughts that you can give ourlisteners about how to continue
supporting students withdisabilities, with dyslexia, as
we are moving forward?

Sara (54:02):
Oh, this is so difficult.
And it is difficult because as,as we've talked, I think I've
made my point really clear thatI would like to move away from
looking at the disability andsaying, hey, let's let's look at
heterogeneity in every studentand what they need and how we
can support them.
is that at the same time, thepositive aspect of having a

(54:23):
diagnosis is also that we dosometimes get more support and
we get more time, and if we wereto say, hey, we're taking away
all the 504s and all the IEPsand we're saying, hey, we just
look at what they need, then ourclasses would just grow bigger
and bigger and bigger andteachers had less time and had

(54:44):
less time to actually work witheach student.
So, what I, what I hope whatwe're going to get to is that
teachers are trusted to knowbest of how they can help the
students.
I absolutely believe that 99.
99 percent of teachers areteachers because we care about
students and because we careabout people and because we want

(55:05):
the best for them.
And that means when we have thattrust, that we also make, we
have the power to make thedecision what our students need,
exactly what Brian just said.
I want them to succeed.
So I give them the extra timebecause I You know, I have that
for all of your listeners tolisten because in their free
time, because they want to learnmore and they want to get input

(55:26):
and we want to learn from eachother.
Right.
So give the teachers the, thepower back that we know what
we're doing.
And I think that's really,really important.
What I personally really dislikeis that the whole idea of
disabilities is has become a bithas become a political point.
I think that is really, reallydangerous for our society

(55:47):
because this is not about anykind of politics.
This is about what do ourstudents need and how can we
best support them?
Is it always to put, you know,labels on them or diagnosis on
them?
I don't think so, but I can alsosee advantages.
But more so.
How can we help our, ourlearners?
And so I think what we have todo is we have to go back into

(56:10):
our own bubble in which we live,which is in our classroom.
To say, I try to, to not listento the noise that is outside and
where, where there's this big,Discussion of what is disability
or not or which rights do theyhave or not and see this is my
student and this is how I cansupport my student and I think

(56:30):
this is how we can, if we startthere, if we start in our own
classroom and then we make itbigger into our language
programs into other languages atour schools and then maybe at
conferences and then on anational level.
I think that is the most naturalway of how we can grow out of
this These extreme views on whatit is and really start to focus

(56:54):
again on what really, reallymatters, which is our students.

FishRod (56:58):
It's sort of the mic dropped.
My goodness, Brian, do you haveany do you have any additional
thoughts, comments, questions,concerns?

Sara (57:04):
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for everyone who
made it to this point, because Ireally, really appreciate it,
because all you teachers, we areall so super busy, so for you to
take the time to listen to thisThank you, thank you, and I
thank you from your students,who are going to be very
appreciative of you spending thetime outside of school to learn

(57:25):
more and to engage and to think.

Bryan (57:28):
Yeah I don't really have much else, but I do want to
express my gratitude for youjoining us.
And I certainly learned a lotand it's got my wheels turning,
like I said, thinking about morethings that I can do to support
my students.

FishRod (57:41):
So thank you, Sarah Lee, for your, your expertise
and for sharing your wisdom andyour experience.
We are so grateful and we hopeour learners took as much from
it as we did.
go forth and slay supportingyour students with dyslexia and
other disabilities or slaysupporting your students exactly
in who they are.
Bye.

Bryan (58:02):
Bye.

Sara (58:03):
Tschüss!