April 21, 2025 • 58 mins
Gaslight
Isolated Vocabulary
Useful Vocabulary Lists
Idioms and Stock Phrases
Use Language in Context
Perceived Fluency and Proficiency Ratings
It’s Giving Library
Speaking to the Heart
What Even Is Fluency?
Lowering Cognitive Load for Speaker and Listener
Girlboss
Sentence Builders / Chat Mats
Filler Phrases and Repair Phrases
Rejoinders
Teach via Classroom Passwords
Total Verbal Response
How We Present Vocab - Planning Ahead
References
The Art and Science of Creating Sentence Builders by Gianfranco Conti
Text us about how you’ve Gaslit, or Girlbossed your language classroom.
Email us at info@slayyypod.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
FishRod (00:00):
Hi everybody, and welcome back to another episode
(00:02):
of Slay second LanguageAcquisition for everyone.
We are down a sick Brian.
Brian cannot catch a break.
So we are down to Brian today,but we are here to talk to you
this episode about, multi wordsequences.
Ooh.
bill (00:18):
Ooh.
FishRod (00:19):
is defined as a routinized string of recurring
words that have frequentlyappear together or are
statistically strongly with eachother.
So we're here to talk about,word language chunks, as it
were.
bill (00:33):
Yeah, I remember like when I was in undergrad and like
first learning about languageteaching, I just heard about
chunks all the time.
FishRod (00:42):
Generally the thrust of the, the article is that
teaching
bill (00:46):
I,
FishRod (00:46):
chunks is generally a good thing.
We'll
bill (00:49):
mm-hmm.
FishRod (00:49):
how that is during when we un gatekeep the research.
But.
How, what are some ways thatyou've gaslit yourself?
In what ways has yourinstruction not been chunky and
funky?
bill (01:04):
Yeah.
Well, I think that at somepoints it has been chunky but
not so funky or vice, viceversa.
Yeah.
So, when I was reading throughthis article, when I was reading
through this article what I keptthinking back to was how when we
(01:25):
introduced vocabulary tostudents, a lot of times, how we
were taught as teachers was withcapitalists, or maybe we weren't
taught that, but that was, wewere given a textbook that just
had up.
List of words.
Maybe sometimes they includedlike an article or a
(01:47):
preposition, which I'll touch ona little bit later.
But, they weren't usefullanguage chunks, like they
didn't really do anything.
So maybe a textbook in Spanishhas, number on us or two be a
(02:09):
age or to have a number of yearsand while that is a chunk s to
have 15 years to be 15 years oldwhile that is indeed a chunk of
language it isn't as useful asthings could be.
(02:29):
So like if, because we don't say10 s over and over and over, or
that's not something that, isexplaining exactly like it'll
happen, but it's not whatstudents need in order to
communicate something aboutthemselves.
(02:49):
So instead of maybe say like, ifthe capitalist says tens, maybe
a better phrase would be tango.
He can say onos.
So they just learned that phraseas a whole, which is a complete
sentence.
It communicates something aboutthe person.
(03:10):
And it takes minimal change to.
Make it be personalized.
So like, I'm not gonna, Ipersonally am not gonna say
tangle Quin say onions because Idon't have 15 years.
But for high school studentslearning a language, like that's
gonna be a really useful phrasefor them.
So one, one way that I, I thinkthat I might have, thought I was
(03:36):
doing the right thing, but havelearned better since is the
language chunks need to besomething that is actually
usable rather than somethingthat students still need to pick
apart, change around so that itworks for them, if that makes
(03:57):
sense.
FishRod (03:57):
think when we, when we teach those individual words,
then students, when they'retrying to compose their messages
to us, like in the language byduring
bill (04:06):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (04:07):
are taking apart those phrases in English, word by
word, and
bill (04:13):
Right?
FishRod (04:13):
look for the Spanish, the German, the French
equivalent.
bill (04:16):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (04:16):
In the other live and in the moment.
And so, you know, that can leadto problems with word order and
bill (04:23):
Right.
FishRod (04:24):
that just don't make sense.
And you know, german is likeEnglish and that you say I am
blank years old versus Frenchand Spanish, which say I have
this many years.
And so again, you, you get kidsin the languages kind of doing
the wrong things.
I've had a Spanish speaker comeinto my class actually and say I
have 15 years in German becausethey
bill (04:44):
Right,
FishRod (04:44):
in that sort of way.
But I've also had, when teachingSpanish kids, you know, I, I'm
sure every Spanish teacher isnodding their head when they
hear they have heard so quins,you're
bill (04:53):
right.
FishRod (04:53):
not actually correct.
And we
bill (04:55):
I.
FishRod (04:55):
to be able to access those, like you said, the useful
stuff instead of.
every utterance word by word,because that is also another
great way to make using anotherlanguage.
Feel painful.
bill (05:08):
Right.
Like if you have to select everysingle word and are trying to
make a one-to-one connection,for everything that you wanna
say, that's going to one putpotentially, like, get you lost
in translation.
FishRod (05:22):
Mm-hmm.
bill (05:23):
But like in production and comprehension as well.
Like if, if we don't understandlike, what someone's actually
trying to say it, like the, thearticle talks about idiomatic
expressions a little bit and,idiomatic expressions don't
translate word for word.
It's not a one-to-onetranslation.
For example, when I did my studyabroad, I was in Costa Rica, out
(05:50):
there.
And, I learned the phrase, whichI learned later that it might
have been a phrase that was moreused by an older generation.
So me as a 20-year-old soundedweird, but yeah.
So like there's the phrase like,like literally to iron the ear,
(06:12):
but it means to like go to bed.
Like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm gonnago.
I'm gonna go to bed, I'm gonnago iron my ear.
And I said that.
Once because it was a usefulphrase.
I didn't really have to changeit.
And like, I just wanted to saylike, I'm gonna go to bed.
And like my friends looked atme, we were like, where did you
(06:33):
learn that?
Like, are you staying with agrandma?
Which as I went on, I learnedlike more than just, like say
that, but it, you know, just alittle bit of a generational
difference.
But I didn't have to think aboutwhen I, when I was saying the
phrase like, I wasn't thinkingIron Ear, I was thinking, I'm
(07:00):
gonna go to bed, because like,that's the meaning that it
carries.
So, that might have alsoactually been the way that I
learned the word to iron, butthat's like beside the point,
FishRod (07:12):
I think,
bill (07:13):
anyway.
Yeah.
FishRod (07:14):
words, like the, where we want our students to get is
fable that, you know, like thedreaming and the language, the,
bill (07:21):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (07:22):
without
bill (07:22):
funny
FishRod (07:23):
single word.
bill (07:24):
in a language that Oh,
FishRod (07:25):
them to have that the, the fluency, right.
The, to not go be going back andforth, back and forth, back and
forth to kind of eventually gettheir brain into whatever mode.
bill (07:36):
mm-hmm.
FishRod (07:36):
that teaching words, you know, makes it, like we
said, it just kinda makes itthis game of like, switching out
this word or that.
When really, like when you and Iare talking right now, I'm
groups of words and using,gathering words as like an
unusual phrase.
So like, my brain just had
bill (07:52):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (07:53):
hard of like what I was saying, but I'm like gathering
groups of words and using themaltogether in these like linked
structures more than they areindividual words that I'm
thinking about to use to expresswhat I'm thinking.
And we
bill (08:06):
Yeah.
FishRod (08:06):
get that way in their production of the L two, but we
don't do that through individualwords.
I think that that the likeindividual words teaching also
speaks to, to me, immediatelyputs me into tra traditional
teaching methods and notteaching for proficiency and not
using something, an approachlike CCLT or whatever it may be,
(08:30):
kind of in the proficiency veinbecause Yeah, it is, it is
determined by a textbook thatis, I.
Not really informed by howbrains acquire languages.
And it says to me that kids arereceiving messages in individual
words instead of receivingcontextualized messages.
But the way that students aregonna understand intuitively
(08:51):
grammar and understandintuitively what word belongs
where is by hearing lots oflanguage, like contextualized,
comprehensible language byreading lots of contextualized,
comprehensible language and.
AAB list just doesn't count likethat does, it just doesn't have
the same interest, it doesn'thave the same kind of necessity
that makes you want to read it.
(09:13):
And so you're gonna get lessacquisition out of that list
anyways.
It just doesn't stick.
And we want them to develop thatsort of intuition something is
right or wrong based on their,the ear that they've developed,
the, you know, their internalear that they've developed by
listening and reading a bunch.
I think people can do thingswith vocab list and if I, you
know, try to pretend over herethat I've, like never given a
(09:34):
vocab list, that would be a lie.
But I think that when that isour focus, and when we, we think
about vocabulary in this way andwe try to get our students to
think about vocab as these justlists of isolated words, then
we're doing a disservice toourselves and them
bill (09:51):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (09:52):
putting our teaching into that mode.
That just isn't as effective fora lot of reasons.
bill (09:56):
Yeah.
So something that that remindsme of, like, I have, I've had
students throughout the yearsthat have said, oh, like I want
to do some more independentstudy on my own, or like, at
home.
'cause like, I don't give formalhomework.
So students sometimes be like,oh, like what can I do?
(10:19):
Like, so I try to give them somesuggestions, which we can talk
about some other time.
But, what I've heard kind offrequently from, from students
is that like, oh yeah, like Ijust wanna, take whatever we
read in class and go home andjust translate it.
And what that, what, like the,the problems that come up with
(10:41):
that.
It are like, well, not everygroup of words needs to be
translated word for word.
And we almost kind of see that alittle bit with like in Spanish,
at least, like the phrase I callmyself, like the literal
(11:02):
translation, like I said, I callmyself, but sometimes we tell
students it means my name is, soonce students learn the word for
is they think may my yamo nameis, is.
(11:24):
So we're giving them chunkssometimes.
But, I feel that if we're notgiving them what it actually
means and giving them like aliteral translation versus, I
don't know, a, an everydaytranslation, I guess, that is
(11:44):
going to put things in the wrongparts of their brain.
Like if they're connecting Maywith my and Yamal with name,
then that might cause issueswith comprehension or production
later.
I think the same would go forin, in Spanish.
The verb that we teach as tolike, so like gusta doesn't
(12:08):
literally mean too, like itmeans like.
Something is like a pleasingexperience to me.
I try not to say it like likeI'm not going to, if we co we in
everyday speech translate to Ilike apples.
But if we take it literally,that apples are pleasing to me,
(12:32):
like that's not how we talk in,in English often anyway.
Especially now for teenagers.
Like, oh, this, this applepleases me or whatever.
Like we, we, we just don't, wedon't talk that way.
So if, so we try to translatethings or we try to establish
(12:53):
meaning in like student terms,but that's not always.
Like how we actually need toexplain the term, if that makes
sense.
FishRod (13:06):
Students need to know that language exists in a
variety of contexts and use itin a lot of different ways, and
that is through exposure.
I, I found, I've been thinkingabout how
bill (13:16):
exposure.
FishRod (13:17):
robust even is
bill (13:19):
exposure.
FishRod (13:20):
If my students get too hung up on translations, it
means that I've been doing a lotof translations in class.
Like I, I do choral
bill (13:26):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (13:27):
of texts that we've written together or that we're
reading together.
But if I, I find that if I dotoo much of that, then kids get
really hung up on individualwords a little bit more.
I think if there are other waysthat I can get them to show
comprehension through drawings,through gestures, through you
know, indication of yes or no orlike, you know, sorts of voting
(13:47):
with their bodies or so, youknow, any
bill (13:49):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (13:49):
that we can check for comprehension, that they're
getting more holistic languageand not getting bogged down by
the individual words, which iswhere I would want them to get
eventually.
bill (13:58):
Right.
And question real quick aboutthat.
Like, do you think that, whichI, I know that what the, what
this article says, so I'm, butI'm gonna like ask first, if,
like, I understand that likeit's really easy to tell
students.
Make gusta means I like, andthen we throw an in on if I like
(14:20):
more than one thing.
But like, maybe, maybe there's aquestion on like when, or is if
there is a point in which wecircle back and say like, Ooh,
actually here's how this works.
Now that you've been using it,now we can correct it a little
(14:43):
bit.
Or at least I can maybe try tomake you a little bit conscious
of like what, what it means ifyou say this versus what you
say, what it means if you saythis.
FishRod (14:54):
Remember.
bill (14:55):
So even like maybe establishing meaning of student
production, I guess.
And do you think if there islike a certain point at which we
should be moving towardssomething like that, like, if I
teach in Spanish one on day one,do I go back a little like
(15:20):
halfway through the year and belike, Hey, you remember when I
told you on the very first daythat me gusta means I like,
well, it's not exactly that.
It let's deconstruct it a littlebit or like, let's give, or
maybe at me as the teacher, I'mgoing to give a lot more
examples of I like a pluralthing versus I like a singular
thing or, I, we like something,whatever, all that.
(15:45):
Like, is there a point that westart talking yet about that?
Or at least make, I guesspopups, like when, when do we
just start doing popups on thosekinds of things?
FishRod (15:56):
I wonder if it's one of those things where we forefront
the, it's almost like when wetalk about quotation marks,
teaching grammar andcomprehension based teaching is
that
bill (16:06):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (16:06):
the end quotes is that we, the students need robust
exposure to the language andcontext before you can
contextualize any discussion ofhow form works in a language.
bill (16:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
FishRod (16:19):
I'm wondering if the, that is again, just like a
matter of feel where either thestudents start asking questions
or
bill (16:25):
Which is a great time to answer them.
FishRod (16:28):
Yes, absolutely.
Or you have given so much inputon, on certain structures or
certain constructions, like yousaid, like, whatever it is,
bill (16:39):
Right.
FishRod (16:39):
and that they have been understood in context and you're
certain of that, that once youfeel that the students are
confident with it, then youcould go back and maybe break it
down.
Well, and even in like Mesta,they're gonna see meh in other
bill (16:52):
Right.
FishRod (16:52):
a like, like as a pronoun in other situations.
And so that is gonna come up andmaybe, maybe that will pique
their curiosity.
There was like, oh, it was a,when he gave me something, I
used that same word that I usedin Megha.
Right.
So,
bill (17:04):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (17:05):
I'm wondering if that, again, is just like a matter of
feel for us as teachers aboutour students' level of
comprehension and like howacquired those things feel when
we make the transition to beinga little bit more analytical in
comparison with the language.
Because I'm, my thinking is atfirst, like, yeah, like right
off the beginning, I want theconversation.
(17:28):
We have to be like, my name isso-and-so.
What's, what's, what's yourname?
Oh, your name is this.
Hey, everybody there so-and-so'sname is, this is so-and-so's
name this, or so-and-so's namethis, right?
Like,
bill (17:37):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (17:38):
so easy, digestible.
right at the beginning andimmediate feelings of success.
And I would
bill (17:45):
Yes.
FishRod (17:45):
like if it was like, Hey, when I said that it like,
and immediately into grammarexplanation that it
bill (17:51):
Yeah.
FishRod (17:52):
like is like, has like a dampening effect on motivation
or it just breaks the flow alittle bit more
bill (17:57):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (17:57):
can circle back to, circle back to that later as it
were.
bill (18:02):
Yeah.
And also like something to keepin mind is like sometime going
back to like students askquestions like, oh, that, like,
that shows me that they'removing past just meaning.
Like they're getting themeaning.
And now they have freed up andthey, they understand it so well
(18:22):
that their brain has freed upspace for them to pay attention
to something else.
If that's something studentsnotice something, I explain it.
I.
I can't expect them to just getit right because they still have
to process it and they mightjust be a little bit more
conscious of what it is thatthey're saying or of what
(18:45):
they're trying to say.
But it doesn't, just'cause I'veexplained it doesn't mean that
they're going to fix, I'mputting that in quotes.
Fix like a, a non-normativelanguage structure.
FishRod (19:00):
Sure.
bill (19:01):
So, alright.
We've been
FishRod (19:03):
talking
bill (19:03):
gaslighting for a while.
I know so many, so many things.
FishRod (19:07):
these individual phrases and so
bill (19:09):
Yeah.
FishRod (19:10):
The, because the point is that this article is about
multi word sequences, m
bill (19:13):
Right.
Let's dive in.
FishRod (19:15):
how they, yeah.
Like, yeah, uncap this, keep
bill (19:17):
Yeah.
FishRod (19:17):
for us.
bill (19:18):
So this, the article that we read for this episode is
titled the Role of Multi WordSequences in Fluent Speech, the
Case of Listener Based Judgmentin Second Language,
argumentative Speech.
And this is in studies andsecond language acquisition.
Great journal if you're able toaccess.
(19:39):
It is by Karu, AWA and ShungSuzuki.
So right off the bat, multi wordsequences kind of touched on
that, what that means already.
But.
Like, if you've got a singleword, obviously that's not multi
word.
So we just jump up to the twoword pairs.
(20:00):
And so that, are, those arecalled bigrams.
And the study also looked attrigrams, so two word groupings
and three word groupings.
And, so to start off, like they,the, the authors talked about
the perceived fluency and usageof multi word sequences.
(20:25):
So as you might be able toimagine if you give a student a
multi word sequence, like, andwhere they don't have to break
down the different parts of thephrase, and we're just told
like, we use MEO when you'reintroducing yourself.
MEO bill, bin May O'Brien, whatthat, how that might be
(20:50):
perceived by a listener, whichcould you could you help me,
like, help remind me of who theywere asking to like do the
perception of fluency?
FishRod (21:06):
Their Raiders are, were also L two learners of English.
bill (21:11):
Okay.
FishRod (21:11):
perceived to have the higher proficiency level so that
the, the study subjects werekind of in the, in the B one
neighborhood, in the SR rankingsystem.
bill (21:20):
Okay.
FishRod (21:20):
the Raiders were trained teachers who were like
PhD candidates and had takencourses in linguistics and were
giving a training course.
But their linguistic skills wererated closer to like a C one
level.
bill (21:34):
Okay.
FishRod (21:34):
like a major, step up in
bill (21:37):
Yeah.
FishRod (21:37):
closer to native, like in quotation marks production
or, you know, standardizedproduction than the learners who
were the, you know, the subjectsof the study.
But that also, they mentionedthat as part of the limitations
is that it was more, you know,this was a L two learner
judging, an L two learner.
And there might
bill (21:56):
Right,
FishRod (21:57):
perceptions if, like an L one speaker of a language was
judging an L two speaker of alanguage.
So
bill (22:02):
right.
FishRod (22:02):
a thought, an aside.
bill (22:03):
So some things that they looked at were like speech rate.
So if we're able to pull outthese like two or three word
phrases, and like theycommunicate a thought that we
have, like, we're gonna be ableto spit that chunk out pretty
quickly, because we've alreadygot in our head.
(22:24):
So, it could improve like theperception of speech rate.
So if you don't have to stop andthink, what is the next word
that I'm going to say?
But you've got a chunk of wordsthat you can just say like, off
the, like, I don't know.
Off the cuff.
That's the phrase.
Thank you.
I didn't have that multi wordsequence.
(22:47):
Yeah, that is exactly.
So, and I did not have thatmulti word sequence ready to go.
But, that's one thing that theylooked at, like if you're able
to say things quicker, when it,when it is a chunk of, of
language.
It also they, they looked atpause frequency.
So again, if we have these readyto go phrases.
(23:12):
We probably don't have to pauseas frequently to think about
what the next thing that wewanna say.
They also brought upself-repair.
So when you do make a mistake orI'm saying mistake, even though
I've got thoughts on what alanguage mistake is, check out t
with BVP or talking L two.
(23:33):
With BVP, they had an entireepisode on if errors are even
real in language learning, but,like being able to fix, like if
a student says, I'm gonna keepgoing back to like, or, or
whatever.
But if they say, if they intendto say, but they say MEMA with
(23:53):
an A at the end having thischunk of language in their head,
they'll be able to like repairit.
They'll be able to likeself-correct.
And be like, oh no.
And, and keep going on.
Like, I, I was just talking tostudents earlier this week about
how like, I wanna get you to thepoint where, you know what
(24:13):
sounds right, like, but in orderto know what sounds right.
You have to have a lot, a lot ofinput so that you're like, oh,
I've heard these things before,but I've heard I've not heard
them in that order.
Or I've not heard them in thatconstruction before.
So that it like helps students,when it, when they're talking
(24:36):
with someone else, likeunderstand what is or is not,
common speech.
So in that, when people areusing these multi word
sequences, it improves theirperceived fluency.
It makes, it makes you sound,more fluent if you can just
(24:56):
rattle off, some things andanother one in Spanish anyway,
like they, based on kwando, likefrom time to time.
If, like, I don't know if I'veever, I mean now that I'm, I'm
like a fluent speaker of thelanguage.
I know what every single one ofthose words mean.
But, if I were to, again, if Iwere to translate it literally,
(25:18):
it's like from time and when,which is again, going back, it's
not a one-to-one translation,but like, if we have the
meaning, then it doesn't matterif it's a one-to-one translation
because we know the message thatwe're trying to explain and we
get our message across to ourother interlocutors.
(25:41):
Multi word sequences also help,it mirrors native speaker
patterns.
Native speaker patterns.
So, there's so many things thatwe say every single day that are
chunked language.
So, for example, idiomaticexpressions, like I even saw
(26:02):
this like today in class, we'rewatching Pan's Labyrinth in
Spanish four rate film.
Make sure that it's anappropriate film for you to show
at your school.
But it's a great film and the,the word to heal came up like to
heal someone, someone is sick,heal them, or someone has an
(26:22):
injury, heal them.
And I know that you've broughtup before, maybe like you using
passwords in class.
And I have as well, one of myphrases this year was Ana, heel,
heel, little frog tale, if youdon't heel today, you'll heal
tomorrow.
(26:43):
So like I know if I, if someone,if I hear someone say that, like
I know that I don't have tothink about every single word in
that I know that they're wishingme well.
And so when you can rattle offsomething like that, it shows
like, it gives you like someidiomatic expressions, or other,
(27:04):
or communication strategies thatnative speakers use.
And they do talk about how.
Like in for beginners, likebasic locations, like, what's
something in French or German?
Sorry, Brian's not here.
What's something in German?
Like, what's that?
FishRod (27:23):
was ready though.
I was, I was like, gem, like, Ilike, right?
bill (27:26):
Yeah, yeah,
FishRod (27:27):
or like, you
bill (27:28):
yeah, yeah.
FishRod (27:29):
a great one because it's the same thing I call
bill (27:31):
I,
FishRod (27:31):
just like, F finish.
bill (27:32):
yeah.
FishRod (27:33):
Yep.
There you go.
German, like, Eski is, there is,or there are, but it literally
means
bill (27:38):
Okay.
FishRod (27:38):
which my kids are always like, it's giving.
bill (27:40):
giving
FishRod (27:41):
no, no, no, no.
And I'm like, please
bill (27:43):
slate,
FishRod (27:45):
Yeah, but those, those phrases like you, you just kind
of have to like, I can't belike, es skip means it gives,
because then
bill (27:51):
right?
FishRod (27:51):
I don't know you for our listeners, if you're not
aware, that is a you know,colloquial thing to just
describe how the the vibe thatsomething is giving.
bill (28:01):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (28:03):
you know, I think if I, if I taught it in that way, it
would be funny and memorable.
But I think it wouldaccidentally, you know, if I was
like, oh, escaped.
Means there is a library.
But if I taught that kind of inthe English way, they're like,
it's giving
bill (28:16):
It is giving library.
FishRod (28:18):
I'm not trying to say this room is like a library.
I'm saying this room isliterally a li there is a
library at our school.
So yeah, the, again, the, thelike literal or, or you know,
like colloquial translation andstuff like that.
It's
bill (28:30):
Right.
FishRod (28:30):
of be very clear.
bill (28:32):
Also something that, just like with your, with your
example there, something thatlike clicked into my mind was
in, in Spanish, the, the phrasethere is, is I just one word
and, I see students like kind ofgo in reverse from, instead of,
from like Spanish to English,English to Spanish.
(28:53):
Like I see a lot of, I ace.
For, to say there is, but I'mlike, oh, that would just mean
like there is, is, which islike, that's just silly.
I know what you're trying tosay, but I get, but, but, but it
is what?
It's and then so for beginners,like some basic colocation basic
grouping, basic bios, trigramsand then the article talked
(29:18):
about in, for more advanced,learners using idiomatic
expressions.
So, like, and or, like which,eh, the English compare English
(29:40):
thing, version of thattranslation I guess would be
something like every cloud has asilver lining, but like the
literal translation, forsomething good comes from, from
bad things.
Like anytime there's somethingbad, something good will come.
And again, you don't need tounderstand every single word of
that to be able to learn thatphrase and learn the sentiment
(30:04):
behind it, which is going toone, lead to you sounding more
fluent.
But also, being able to usethose kinds of phrases.
It's what is going to helpstudents that are already
performing maybe at like, Idon't know, intermediate, low,
(30:26):
intermediate, mid is using theseextended colocations, these
idiomatic phrases are what, andlike sounding, I'm putting this
in quotes, sounding more native,like is what's going to help
them get a better.
Rating on like a proficiencytest.
Like I know with a stamp beingable to use idiomatic
(30:49):
expressions and culturallanguage, it shows a deeper
understanding of the languagethat you already have.
So if I know that this phrasethat doesn't exactly translate
works in whatever context I'mwriting about, and whoever's
writing my writing or speakingor whatever, it's going to
(31:13):
demonstrate to that person thatnot only do I understand how to
put language together, I alsounderstand that that I, that I
need to add something to mylanguage to really demonstrate
that not only do I know how totranslate words, but I can like,
(31:38):
share my heart in the language,which I am gonna say.
Dr.
Bruno, she's at Michigan State.
She had posted on social media awhile ago about like, artificial
intelligence, ai she had postedon, on social media about how
like, you know, AI can translatefor us, but it can't really
(32:01):
like, help you speak tosomeone's heart.
So like, it doesn't, translatorsin general as well, like don't
understand sentiment of what wewant to say.
So by using some of these likemulti word sequences, we can
take all of like the meaningthat we have, that we want to
(32:23):
communicate and share itsuccinctly in a culturally
appropriate way.
And I think that's just realcool.
So long story short, I, theselike groupings of phrases.
Or groupings of words can help,students communicate more
(32:45):
easily.
It can help them be perceived asmore fluent and when you're
thinking about how to organize,like the vocabulary that you're
giving to students, see how youcan put some words together that
are like natural combinationsthat will be used over and over
and over.
FishRod (33:05):
What I appreciate about this is that, you know, it kind
of laid out what fluency is, isthat there's fluency of the, the
use a model from sitz which it,there's fluency of the
utterance.
There's cognitive fluency andthen perceived fluency.
So utterance is just literallyhow
bill (33:24):
Thank you.
FishRod (33:24):
are you getting the words across your lips?
What sort of pauses are youtaking, that sort of things.
Cognitive fluency is then likehow you're processing the
language, like how quickly it'smoving through your brain and,
and through the brain of yourlistener, that sort of thing.
And perceived fluency is thensomebody else is listening to
you.
Do they perceive that you'refluent?
And what, you know, what doesthat look like?
And that kind of in the, theliterature review was, it was
(33:46):
helpful and interesting for meto see that.
Y yes.
Like most of people's perceivedfluency is based on their rate
of speech.
How often do they stop to takepauses and how many words can
they get their tongue in acertain amount of time.
And so what was cool is thenwhen you have this study.
They controlled for the rate ofspeech because they were like,
(34:09):
yeah, we understand that ifpeople speak faster, people
perceive them to be more fluent,just as like a fluent as an
idea.
And we know that that is thebiggest component of their
fluency score.
So they controlled for that andsaid, okay, we're gonna take
people who are saying roughlythe amount, same amount of words
at the same time.
You know, we're gonna put theirkind of samples next to each
other.
(34:29):
But then compare was using moreof these diagrams and trigrams,
which again are two word phrasesthree word phrases.
You know, even the, the examplethat they gave is like, agree
with is a
bill (34:41):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (34:42):
that
bill (34:43):
Yeah.
FishRod (34:43):
just say as a thing.
So I agree with the speaker, butif you said, I agree, the
speaker.
Even with the same speed, itsounds, it might sound less
fluent.
And
bill (34:53):
Yeah.
FishRod (34:53):
You know, in Spanish,
bill (34:55):
Yep.
FishRod (34:55):
like this, that's a phrase.
If you can just get I agree.
I I am, I am in agreement with Iam of the agreement.
bill (35:02):
In concordance with,
FishRod (35:04):
Exactly, yeah.
That if you,
bill (35:05):
yeah.
FishRod (35:05):
that speed is rate of speech of neutralized.
It's the people that are usingthat, these more, like you said,
native like con connections,these more native like groupings
of words that are gettingperceived as being slightly more
fluent.
bill (35:23):
Hmm.
FishRod (35:24):
You know, fluency is one of those things.
It comes up in my class all thetime.
Like, how do you know whenyou're fluent?
What do I gotta do to be fluent?
What does fluency look like?
And I, I think when we'reteaching in a communicative way,
we need to like, be able to putmarkers on our students' path of
like, I.
You fluently communicated yourage, you know, like you fluently
communicated
bill (35:41):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (35:42):
likes and interests and who's in your, who's, like,
who's close in your socialcircle, that sort of thing.
You know, whatever it is.
Like we need to put thosemarkers on there, but, you know,
kids are also competitive withthemselves and want to put
little you know, these kind of,wanna speak faster and speak
more words and all these sortsof things.
And so if we can give them thesephrases, it's nice also to just
(36:02):
pump them up with like, yeah,and you sound like a native
speaker.
Like you sound like a
bill (36:06):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (36:06):
like an Austrian when you say, you know, when you say
blah, blah blah.
And then like, rattle off a listof things versus like stopping
and being like, a lot of my kidshave, have hit me with like the
deist, which is just the, is, itdoesn't even make sense in
German.
But it's
bill (36:21):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (36:22):
like English braining it still.
But
bill (36:24):
Alright.
FishRod (36:25):
once they get like steeped as a construction, then
they can rattle off lists ofstuff like all the time.
And so yeah, we want them tospeak faster.
Like that is a huge component oftheir fluency.
But what if you neutralize forthat?
It's the people that are usingthese natural groupings of words
together.
And again, it's even as these,as small as groupings as two and
three words that are makingthese speakers come across as
(36:47):
more fluent to the personlistening to them.
Another part that wasinteresting to me that I enjoyed
reading was about that, becauseyour brain not necessarily just
access one word at a time when
bill (37:02):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:03):
Like we're not just going dpe, dpe, dpe.
We actually are activatingpathways of multiple words at
the same time.
When you're learning thesegroups of bigrams and trigrams
or longer phrases that just kindof go all together, like De San
Juan, like that sort of thing.
bill (37:16):
Quad grams
FishRod (37:18):
that's it.
Quad Yeah.
Quadgrams,
bill (37:20):
in qua.
Anyway, sorry.
FishRod (37:23):
But like that, when you're learning those.
learning that as like one thing.
So you're not learning
bill (37:29):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:29):
you're learning one thing.
So when your brain is accessingit, it's not using energy to
access four things, it is using
bill (37:35):
Yep.
FishRod (37:36):
to
bill (37:36):
L
FishRod (37:37):
the one
bill (37:37):
Yeah.
Lowering the, lowering thecognitive load,
FishRod (37:40):
when you, when you lower their cognitive load, they
are feeling more fluent becausethey're again,
bill (37:46):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:46):
one thing versus four things.
And not struggling to pull eachword out, but then the person
listening to them, cognitiveload is also reduced because
they are hearing.
The group, which to them is alsoone thing.
bill (37:59):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:59):
they're activating networks of language versus,
again, trying to pluckindividual words out, which have
been learned kind of inisolation.
bill (38:05):
Yeah.
FishRod (38:06):
exist in isolation in the brain.
And so it is helps, it's aprocessing advantage for the
speaker, but also for thelistener.
And so I think again, thatspeaks to like the power of
teaching these that go togetherbecause they are learning them
together.
They are then accessing them alltogether.
bill (38:24):
I'm wondering about from, from the production side, we see
that it's easier to pull outthese two, three forward
groupings and just like spit'emout.
But I'm also thinking about howmuch, I mean, you've already
said this, I'm just restating, Iguess, but like, it's easier to
(38:48):
guess what's going to come nextand when, when you're listening
to someone, when you're readingsomething, it's easier to guess
what comes next.
It's easier to have like, alittle bit more context when
you're like, oh, I know thiswhole phrase already.
So like, it's easier to justlike, which good thing, bad
thing, I guess.
(39:09):
Like it's easier to just likeskim over.
Yeah, like if it looks familiarenough and it, and the meaning
works, it's easier to go on tothe next part that maybe you
isn't as clear.
But then your brain has thepower to think a little bit more
about it.
Like taking apart the individualparts of individual pieces of
(39:33):
the word, the, the morphemes, ifyou will, and be like, oh, that
goes there, that goes there,that goes there.
And all of those things areconnected, and now I know what
it means.
And so I, I don't know.
I would be interested in like afurther study about, what
learners, like what learnersguess would come next.
(39:54):
I guess.
Like if you give learners likethe start of one of these multi
word sequences like.
What do they think is gonna comenext, or something like that.
But that's just my teacherresearcher brain.
Just a thought.
FishRod (40:11):
If we know that, if we know that teaching and learning
multi learn word sequences makesour learners be perceived as
more fluent, how can we go aboutdoing that in instruction?
How can we girl, boss usingthose multi word sequences in
our fluent speech.
bill (40:31):
Yeah.
So one of the tools that I liketo use, although again, it's,
it's a tool.
I use this from time to time.
Sentence builders, or you mightknow them as substitution
tables.
So in a sentence builder orsubstitution table, it sometimes
(40:51):
looks like a bunch of columns.
So in, I'm going to give a very,very rudimentary example, but
maybe we can find a link tosomething to post in the, in the
notes.
So maybe the first column haslike subject pronouns.
And I'll just do like a simplesubject verb object.
(41:13):
The second column has, maybedifferent, just like I, so I'm
thinking Spanish like I walk, Italk, I run, and then, and the
next column it would be like.
Con amigos with friends or soloby myself.
(41:38):
Something like that.
So again, bad example, like avery rudimentary example.
But the idea is that if you takesomething from the first column,
something from the secondcolumn, something from the third
column, no matter what it is inthe list it will make like a
logical cent or not, maybe notlogical, but like, dramatically
correct sentence.
FishRod (41:59):
Yeah, sure.
bill (42:00):
It, and what you can do in those is make it so that it,
these word groupings have to gotogether.
So, we've already got columns,but then you start adding rows.
So like, you have to selectsomething from each column, but
then the rows have to line up.
(42:22):
So.
Maybe in the first column, inthe first row, there's, first
column, first row.
There's just the subject pronounI in the second column.
First row you got a coupledifferent I forms of verbs.
Again, that's for Spanish orsome other conjugation
(42:44):
languages.
And then the third column, itwould be like prepositional
phrases, objects, adverbs oftime, something like that.
That could go potentially withjust that first row or maybe it
goes with anything.
So you have to take column one,row one, column two, row one,
(43:08):
but then maybe column three, anyof'em can go with any of the
other rows.
And again.
Theoretically makes agrammatically correct sentence.
Now, what this does is it forcesstudents to, create
grammatically correct sentencesin a way that like, one lowering
(43:31):
cognitive load.
I know that these two rows haveto have something in common, and
then the third row, somewhatever.
But, then for, well, for me, themagic comes from going from,
again, like individual words.
So instead of just like, firstcolumn being subject pronouns,
(43:53):
let's just get rid of that.
And then the second column,instead of like, Camino put Yo
Camino, so they have to use thatchunk.
And then that chunk has to gowith whatever in the next column
to make, again, grammatically,but perhaps not logically,
comprehensible sentence.
(44:15):
And if you use the, if you everlook into the sentence builder
website, like you can set thesethings up so that, like say I do
something that I've, I've donethis year is like I, medical
recommendations, so I've got aheadache.
(44:36):
Okay.
And then that might be like thephrase, that might be the multi
word sequence.
I have a headache.
Or like, with subjunctive, likeI suggest that, like the, that
needs to go with it.
So like, if I'm trying to teachthe students that, like, when
you're giving suggestions, youneed to have a, the, the word
(44:57):
that in Spanish, even though wemight not say it in English,
just by like showing'em in thesentence builder over and over
and over, that this, this wordand this word have to go
together.
That's gonna hopefully, I guess,I need to do more research into
like what these like subsubstitution tables or sentence
builders.
(45:17):
I need to do more research intothem.
I've only done them likepractically and they're fun.
Like I, I like them.
I think I've seen some goodresults from using them.
But again, like it's, it's allabout like patterns and I.
Making sure that the words thatare supposed to go together
completely go together.
So that's something that I've,I've done that I've found, to be
(45:41):
at least like n noticeablyhelpful.
FishRod (45:45):
I've seen that for German as well.
And a lot of the times, like yousaid, the options that you're
choosing from in any givencolumn or row.
Are not just individual words.
So it'll be
bill (45:56):
correct?
FishRod (45:56):
with my friends la say three word
bill (45:58):
Yes.
FishRod (45:59):
with
bill (45:59):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (46:00):
as a three word phrase.
Right?
And so I think that those can behelpful ways to model those,
know, phrases that they wanna beable to whip out at any time.
They don't want to have to belike,
bill (46:08):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (46:09):
what's the word for my, what's the word for, you know,
they, they don't need to analyzeit, they just need to be able to
whip out though with my friends,with my family.
And so I think, yeah, that canbe a good way to model those
like diagrams and diagrams and,
bill (46:20):
Yeah.
FishRod (46:21):
so I've used those to a certain extent.
And I used use you knowAmerican, US American listeners
might be, you know, have seen aconference session or two about
chat mats, which function in asimilar
bill (46:32):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (46:32):
Often
bill (46:32):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
For sure.
FishRod (46:34):
groupings of words together versus just one
individual word.
So it's putting language incontext, like, here's how you
might use it in a sentenceversus in a very dry list that
doesn't, you know, I.
Show usage doesn't show realworld communication.
I think another thing we can
bill (46:50):
S.
FishRod (46:50):
the service of our students is to teach them like
fillers and repair phrases.
Because even if, you know, ifthey pause and are trying to
draw on their, their individualword knowledge to try to figure
out how to say what they want tosay a way, a simple way to make
them perhaps feel more fluentand then again to look more
fluent is just to teach them thelittle, you know, or the, you
bill (47:14):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (47:15):
I've been thinking about or I wonder if, those
sorts of phrases that we usewhen we're buying ourselves time
and our thinking even in our Lone to them time, but also it's
something that they can accessas a phrase quickly when they
maybe do need to think a littlebit more thoroughly about what's
trying to
bill (47:34):
Yep.
FishRod (47:35):
and what's coming next.
bill (47:36):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (47:37):
so
bill (47:37):
In Spanish four, we're in Spanish four.
We're really trying to getplace,
FishRod (47:42):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
bill (47:42):
place, place.
What else?
And, and anything else?
FishRod (47:46):
do I tell, I tell my students also too, like we, I do
rejoinder in class, which are
bill (47:51):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (47:52):
useful phrases that you know, pop people pop into
conversations as a way to showagreement or disagreement or
express frustration or concernor doubt or all sorts of things.
And again, there are, you knowsomething, it's something like,
like, don't, you don't say,
bill (48:08):
Yes.
FishRod (48:09):
how nice.
These are the sorts of thingsthat if you're popping into
conversation, I tell mystudents, you sound so German,
you sound so Austrian.
That can be a way, you know,increased perceived fluency, but
also give students some, some, away to contribute to
conversations
bill (48:24):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (48:24):
not ready to contribute full sentences right away, or if
they, you know, theconversations as they do go by
so fast, like they can still.
Be a part of them and beunderstanding and maybe, you
know, when they have time tospeak for themselves can do
that, but they can justinterject with these short
memorized phrases.
And I use them in the classroomas like they're posted on my
wall.
(48:45):
I teach them explicitly.
We review them over and overagain, but I've also used them
as classroom passwords.
bill (48:51):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (48:52):
the phrase in my opinion in German is so silly.
It's, which literally means myopinion after.
like, it is just like, oh God,like it's so terrible to try to
teach individually.
But if you can just get the kidssaying that phrase over and over
again, then they're whippingthat phrase out in speaking in
writing because it just came asa group.
(49:12):
And you don't have to
bill (49:13):
Yeah.
FishRod (49:13):
'cause, because I've also had students try to go the
other way around and try to doin my mine, which is like not
quite as I,
bill (49:20):
Yeah.
FishRod (49:21):
not idiomatic.
So you know, getting, gettingthose phrases and teaching them
it just as memorized phrases asgroups.
However you have to.
I use, I the ones that when Ihave memorized phrases that I
have a hard time teaching in theclassroom.
I just make it into a passwordfor the class so that the
students have to say it to mebefore they come in.
So that
bill (49:39):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (49:39):
have to retrieve it frequently, every day for at
least a week.
And when we review them, I cansay like, Hey, look at all these
passwords are, are helpfulthings to throw into any
conversation.
So that can
bill (49:51):
Yeah.
FishRod (49:52):
teach those sort of phrases that are fillers or
repair or easy to throw intosentences.
bill (49:59):
And then one thing that I was reminded of as you were
talking about rejoins, issomething that I've done
recently to a girl boss, some ofthese s's, is I actually, I went
onto Canva without the s, notthe learning management system,
(50:20):
but the design software.
And I just created like, theselike two by three, maybe not,
maybe not even that.
Little cards that, have.
I made three different cards.
So in, in my classroom I've got,things of chairs and threes.
(50:42):
So three different rejoindercards, or I made three different
cards with a different list ofrejoins on each of the three.
So in each set of three, there'ssay like 18 different rejoinder,
and I just took some packingtape and taped them down onto
(51:02):
the desk.
So, students have thoserejoinders and a variety of
rejoinders just ready to go atany given point, but they only
have like six in front of'em.
But I do change seats enoughthat students get at least, get
at least exposure to thedifferent sets of rejoinders.
(51:25):
And then.
I, because I started this at theend of the year.
I haven't done this yet, but myhope is to maybe every quarter
or at the semester, change outthe rejoinder on, on the
desktops.
So that when they just lookdown, like, and I tell them, I'm
like, like, use these phraseslike one, you're gonna sound
(51:47):
real cool because like, my, myfavorite one that I've got on on
there is, like from from PuertoRico WIPA
FishRod (51:57):
Mm-hmm.
bill (51:58):
which I translate, because of Justin Silke Bailey as wow,
we z.
And so like, that's like areally fun, fun thing to use and
to like embed that with likeTPR, like instead of a total
physical response, it's like atotal verbal response.
(52:19):
So like the other day in, inSpanish one, we learned the
phrase to have fun.
So I told students like, everysingle time that I say the
phrase to have fun, you need tosay and like, sound like you're
having fun.
And that showed me that one,they're hearing the word and
hopefully like connecting themeaning with, with something
(52:41):
like energetic.
And then just randomly I saidthe phrase to have fun.
And a student with a zeroprompting just shouted wipa.
It's been a couple days since,since we, since we did that.
Like, it just like automatic, itwas a lot of fun.
So
FishRod (52:58):
I've been thinking, I went to a session with Paul Les,
the Montana language Teacher ofthe year a couple years ago.
And he, one of his phrases thatI was like, oh my gosh, why
haven't I been teaching this wassh Vita in German, which is
like, it literally means alreadyagain.
So it can either be like yetagain or kinda like, not this
again, sort of, and that isanother one that my students
(53:20):
have weaponized and use all thetime.
If like, something weird happensin my classroom, which it often
does, they're just like, notthis again.
And I'm like, I'm like, I'mlike, that's fair.
Drag me.
But I think, I, I think myfinal, my, my final like girl
bossy thought is, is how we planand teach.
Like we need to be looking aheadto the sort of communicative
(53:43):
demands that we wanna make ofour students.
We need to think about what wewant them to express or
interpret in terms of meaning,and then provide vocabulary
that's presented in such a waythat it's immediately useful for
them for the purposes of thosecommunicative goals.
Like again, if we want to beable to describe people, we need
to have words in describinglanguage, in useful forms for
(54:05):
that sort of thing.
If we want to express opinions,we need to have expressive
opinion language that is in theform that you're gonna say it in
or that you're gonna write itin.
And so having those phrases, youknow, instead of, you know,
listing the infinitive orlisting, you know, single words,
just having a set phrase alreadyconjugated whatever.
(54:25):
And then if, you know, should aword come up in a different
context with a slightlydifferent conjugation, different
subject, whatever it might be,you can sometimes just, you
know, activate that in thestudent's brain just by saying.
original phrase that theylearned and like the context
that they learned it, and thenjust kind of changing, you know,
transferring the context.
And so I think that we need tothink ahead of like what we're
(54:47):
gonna ask our students to do andthen make our, you know,
vocabulary presentations.
However, if it's throughstories, if it's through PQA, if
it's through, you know, picturesand sorts of things we need to
make those, thinking of howwe're going to be asking the
students to process thelanguage, but then also how we
in this unit, in thisinstructional sequence want them
(55:09):
to then use it.
And so we need to be able topresent it in that way.
So it takes a little bit offorethought of, you know, like,
know, I, I need them to be ableto make medical recommendations,
like you said.
So I need to have my opinionphrases conjugated probably to
the yo form, to the I formbecause it's you giving the
opinion.
So you don't wanna give them,you give, okay.
(55:31):
I am of the opinion that, youknow, those sorts of things.
So using that as a planningconsideration to get these
useful word phrases, multi wordsequences, just ease.
So easy to access because theyhave been presented in the way
that we're going to use them.
We've used them then in thatway.
(55:51):
And to build that fluency andbuild that sense of
accomplishment for our studentsbecause that's what we want.
bill (55:58):
Slay.
FishRod (55:58):
left?
Diva Diva girl.
bill (56:00):
Not for me.
I will say that.
It has been sad to not haveBrian with us these past couple
episodes, but I'm glad to talkwith you and hopefully our next
episode, which, I mean, what isthis episode?
18?
FishRod (56:18):
It will be episode 18.
bill (56:20):
Yeah, we've got two more left and then we're gonna take a
break for the summer.
Right.
It seems like the plan seemslike the plan.
So, we look forward toconnecting you all back with
Brian in, in the coming weeks.
And until then, get out thereand slate.
(56:42):
Bye.
Oh, one more thing.
Over the past year, I have beendoing the full parent share,
which is a program that they doto connect, mentors and mentees.
And I have really dropped theball these past couple episodes
because, my parent sharepartner, Elizabeth has been
(57:05):
asking me to give her a littleshout out.
So I, and I have not, she saidshe listened to us every single
time an episode drops.
So, shout out to Elizabeth.
And the word that she's beenwanting me to say was Cat.
So she wanted me to send alittle signal to her.
So I think, I think thisexplicit mention of her name
(57:27):
probably is a little bit betterthan saying the word cat.
But, hi Elizabeth
FishRod (57:32):
Hi,
bill (57:33):
and Slay.
FishRod (57:34):
too.
Okay, go forth and slate.
bill (57:36):
Bye bye.
Hi everybody, and welcome back to another episode
(00:02):
of Slay second LanguageAcquisition for everyone.
We are down a sick Brian.
Brian cannot catch a break.
So we are down to Brian today,but we are here to talk to you
this episode about, multi wordsequences.
Ooh.
bill (00:18):
Ooh.
FishRod (00:19):
is defined as a routinized string of recurring
words that have frequentlyappear together or are
statistically strongly with eachother.
So we're here to talk about,word language chunks, as it
were.
bill (00:33):
Yeah, I remember like when I was in undergrad and like
first learning about languageteaching, I just heard about
chunks all the time.
FishRod (00:42):
Generally the thrust of the, the article is that
teaching
bill (00:46):
I,
FishRod (00:46):
chunks is generally a good thing.
We'll
bill (00:49):
mm-hmm.
FishRod (00:49):
how that is during when we un gatekeep the research.
But.
How, what are some ways thatyou've gaslit yourself?
In what ways has yourinstruction not been chunky and
funky?
bill (01:04):
Yeah.
Well, I think that at somepoints it has been chunky but
not so funky or vice, viceversa.
Yeah.
So, when I was reading throughthis article, when I was reading
through this article what I keptthinking back to was how when we
(01:25):
introduced vocabulary tostudents, a lot of times, how we
were taught as teachers was withcapitalists, or maybe we weren't
taught that, but that was, wewere given a textbook that just
had up.
List of words.
Maybe sometimes they includedlike an article or a
(01:47):
preposition, which I'll touch ona little bit later.
But, they weren't usefullanguage chunks, like they
didn't really do anything.
So maybe a textbook in Spanishhas, number on us or two be a
(02:09):
age or to have a number of yearsand while that is a chunk s to
have 15 years to be 15 years oldwhile that is indeed a chunk of
language it isn't as useful asthings could be.
(02:29):
So like if, because we don't say10 s over and over and over, or
that's not something that, isexplaining exactly like it'll
happen, but it's not whatstudents need in order to
communicate something aboutthemselves.
(02:49):
So instead of maybe say like, ifthe capitalist says tens, maybe
a better phrase would be tango.
He can say onos.
So they just learned that phraseas a whole, which is a complete
sentence.
It communicates something aboutthe person.
(03:10):
And it takes minimal change to.
Make it be personalized.
So like, I'm not gonna, Ipersonally am not gonna say
tangle Quin say onions because Idon't have 15 years.
But for high school studentslearning a language, like that's
gonna be a really useful phrasefor them.
So one, one way that I, I thinkthat I might have, thought I was
(03:36):
doing the right thing, but havelearned better since is the
language chunks need to besomething that is actually
usable rather than somethingthat students still need to pick
apart, change around so that itworks for them, if that makes
(03:57):
sense.
FishRod (03:57):
think when we, when we teach those individual words,
then students, when they'retrying to compose their messages
to us, like in the language byduring
bill (04:06):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (04:07):
are taking apart those phrases in English, word by
word, and
bill (04:13):
Right?
FishRod (04:13):
look for the Spanish, the German, the French
equivalent.
bill (04:16):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (04:16):
In the other live and in the moment.
And so, you know, that can leadto problems with word order and
bill (04:23):
Right.
FishRod (04:24):
that just don't make sense.
And you know, german is likeEnglish and that you say I am
blank years old versus Frenchand Spanish, which say I have
this many years.
And so again, you, you get kidsin the languages kind of doing
the wrong things.
I've had a Spanish speaker comeinto my class actually and say I
have 15 years in German becausethey
bill (04:44):
Right,
FishRod (04:44):
in that sort of way.
But I've also had, when teachingSpanish kids, you know, I, I'm
sure every Spanish teacher isnodding their head when they
hear they have heard so quins,you're
bill (04:53):
right.
FishRod (04:53):
not actually correct.
And we
bill (04:55):
I.
FishRod (04:55):
to be able to access those, like you said, the useful
stuff instead of.
every utterance word by word,because that is also another
great way to make using anotherlanguage.
Feel painful.
bill (05:08):
Right.
Like if you have to select everysingle word and are trying to
make a one-to-one connection,for everything that you wanna
say, that's going to one putpotentially, like, get you lost
in translation.
FishRod (05:22):
Mm-hmm.
bill (05:23):
But like in production and comprehension as well.
Like if, if we don't understandlike, what someone's actually
trying to say it, like the, thearticle talks about idiomatic
expressions a little bit and,idiomatic expressions don't
translate word for word.
It's not a one-to-onetranslation.
For example, when I did my studyabroad, I was in Costa Rica, out
(05:50):
there.
And, I learned the phrase, whichI learned later that it might
have been a phrase that was moreused by an older generation.
So me as a 20-year-old soundedweird, but yeah.
So like there's the phrase like,like literally to iron the ear,
(06:12):
but it means to like go to bed.
Like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm gonnago.
I'm gonna go to bed, I'm gonnago iron my ear.
And I said that.
Once because it was a usefulphrase.
I didn't really have to changeit.
And like, I just wanted to saylike, I'm gonna go to bed.
And like my friends looked atme, we were like, where did you
(06:33):
learn that?
Like, are you staying with agrandma?
Which as I went on, I learnedlike more than just, like say
that, but it, you know, just alittle bit of a generational
difference.
But I didn't have to think aboutwhen I, when I was saying the
phrase like, I wasn't thinkingIron Ear, I was thinking, I'm
(07:00):
gonna go to bed, because like,that's the meaning that it
carries.
So, that might have alsoactually been the way that I
learned the word to iron, butthat's like beside the point,
FishRod (07:12):
I think,
bill (07:13):
anyway.
Yeah.
FishRod (07:14):
words, like the, where we want our students to get is
fable that, you know, like thedreaming and the language, the,
bill (07:21):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (07:22):
without
bill (07:22):
funny
FishRod (07:23):
single word.
bill (07:24):
in a language that Oh,
FishRod (07:25):
them to have that the, the fluency, right.
The, to not go be going back andforth, back and forth, back and
forth to kind of eventually gettheir brain into whatever mode.
bill (07:36):
mm-hmm.
FishRod (07:36):
that teaching words, you know, makes it, like we
said, it just kinda makes itthis game of like, switching out
this word or that.
When really, like when you and Iare talking right now, I'm
groups of words and using,gathering words as like an
unusual phrase.
So like, my brain just had
bill (07:52):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (07:53):
hard of like what I was saying, but I'm like gathering
groups of words and using themaltogether in these like linked
structures more than they areindividual words that I'm
thinking about to use to expresswhat I'm thinking.
And we
bill (08:06):
Yeah.
FishRod (08:06):
get that way in their production of the L two, but we
don't do that through individualwords.
I think that that the likeindividual words teaching also
speaks to, to me, immediatelyputs me into tra traditional
teaching methods and notteaching for proficiency and not
using something, an approachlike CCLT or whatever it may be,
(08:30):
kind of in the proficiency veinbecause Yeah, it is, it is
determined by a textbook thatis, I.
Not really informed by howbrains acquire languages.
And it says to me that kids arereceiving messages in individual
words instead of receivingcontextualized messages.
But the way that students aregonna understand intuitively
(08:51):
grammar and understandintuitively what word belongs
where is by hearing lots oflanguage, like contextualized,
comprehensible language byreading lots of contextualized,
comprehensible language and.
AAB list just doesn't count likethat does, it just doesn't have
the same interest, it doesn'thave the same kind of necessity
that makes you want to read it.
(09:13):
And so you're gonna get lessacquisition out of that list
anyways.
It just doesn't stick.
And we want them to develop thatsort of intuition something is
right or wrong based on their,the ear that they've developed,
the, you know, their internalear that they've developed by
listening and reading a bunch.
I think people can do thingswith vocab list and if I, you
know, try to pretend over herethat I've, like never given a
(09:34):
vocab list, that would be a lie.
But I think that when that isour focus, and when we, we think
about vocabulary in this way andwe try to get our students to
think about vocab as these justlists of isolated words, then
we're doing a disservice toourselves and them
bill (09:51):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (09:52):
putting our teaching into that mode.
That just isn't as effective fora lot of reasons.
bill (09:56):
Yeah.
So something that that remindsme of, like, I have, I've had
students throughout the yearsthat have said, oh, like I want
to do some more independentstudy on my own, or like, at
home.
'cause like, I don't give formalhomework.
So students sometimes be like,oh, like what can I do?
(10:19):
Like, so I try to give them somesuggestions, which we can talk
about some other time.
But, what I've heard kind offrequently from, from students
is that like, oh yeah, like Ijust wanna, take whatever we
read in class and go home andjust translate it.
And what that, what, like the,the problems that come up with
(10:41):
that.
It are like, well, not everygroup of words needs to be
translated word for word.
And we almost kind of see that alittle bit with like in Spanish,
at least, like the phrase I callmyself, like the literal
(11:02):
translation, like I said, I callmyself, but sometimes we tell
students it means my name is, soonce students learn the word for
is they think may my yamo nameis, is.
(11:24):
So we're giving them chunkssometimes.
But, I feel that if we're notgiving them what it actually
means and giving them like aliteral translation versus, I
don't know, a, an everydaytranslation, I guess, that is
(11:44):
going to put things in the wrongparts of their brain.
Like if they're connecting Maywith my and Yamal with name,
then that might cause issueswith comprehension or production
later.
I think the same would go forin, in Spanish.
The verb that we teach as tolike, so like gusta doesn't
(12:08):
literally mean too, like itmeans like.
Something is like a pleasingexperience to me.
I try not to say it like likeI'm not going to, if we co we in
everyday speech translate to Ilike apples.
But if we take it literally,that apples are pleasing to me,
(12:32):
like that's not how we talk in,in English often anyway.
Especially now for teenagers.
Like, oh, this, this applepleases me or whatever.
Like we, we, we just don't, wedon't talk that way.
So if, so we try to translatethings or we try to establish
(12:53):
meaning in like student terms,but that's not always.
Like how we actually need toexplain the term, if that makes
sense.
FishRod (13:06):
Students need to know that language exists in a
variety of contexts and use itin a lot of different ways, and
that is through exposure.
I, I found, I've been thinkingabout how
bill (13:16):
exposure.
FishRod (13:17):
robust even is
bill (13:19):
exposure.
FishRod (13:20):
If my students get too hung up on translations, it
means that I've been doing a lotof translations in class.
Like I, I do choral
bill (13:26):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (13:27):
of texts that we've written together or that we're
reading together.
But if I, I find that if I dotoo much of that, then kids get
really hung up on individualwords a little bit more.
I think if there are other waysthat I can get them to show
comprehension through drawings,through gestures, through you
know, indication of yes or no orlike, you know, sorts of voting
(13:47):
with their bodies or so, youknow, any
bill (13:49):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (13:49):
that we can check for comprehension, that they're
getting more holistic languageand not getting bogged down by
the individual words, which iswhere I would want them to get
eventually.
bill (13:58):
Right.
And question real quick aboutthat.
Like, do you think that, whichI, I know that what the, what
this article says, so I'm, butI'm gonna like ask first, if,
like, I understand that likeit's really easy to tell
students.
Make gusta means I like, andthen we throw an in on if I like
(14:20):
more than one thing.
But like, maybe, maybe there's aquestion on like when, or is if
there is a point in which wecircle back and say like, Ooh,
actually here's how this works.
Now that you've been using it,now we can correct it a little
(14:43):
bit.
Or at least I can maybe try tomake you a little bit conscious
of like what, what it means ifyou say this versus what you
say, what it means if you saythis.
FishRod (14:54):
Remember.
bill (14:55):
So even like maybe establishing meaning of student
production, I guess.
And do you think if there islike a certain point at which we
should be moving towardssomething like that, like, if I
teach in Spanish one on day one,do I go back a little like
(15:20):
halfway through the year and belike, Hey, you remember when I
told you on the very first daythat me gusta means I like,
well, it's not exactly that.
It let's deconstruct it a littlebit or like, let's give, or
maybe at me as the teacher, I'mgoing to give a lot more
examples of I like a pluralthing versus I like a singular
thing or, I, we like something,whatever, all that.
(15:45):
Like, is there a point that westart talking yet about that?
Or at least make, I guesspopups, like when, when do we
just start doing popups on thosekinds of things?
FishRod (15:56):
I wonder if it's one of those things where we forefront
the, it's almost like when wetalk about quotation marks,
teaching grammar andcomprehension based teaching is
that
bill (16:06):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (16:06):
the end quotes is that we, the students need robust
exposure to the language andcontext before you can
contextualize any discussion ofhow form works in a language.
bill (16:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
FishRod (16:19):
I'm wondering if the, that is again, just like a
matter of feel where either thestudents start asking questions
or
bill (16:25):
Which is a great time to answer them.
FishRod (16:28):
Yes, absolutely.
Or you have given so much inputon, on certain structures or
certain constructions, like yousaid, like, whatever it is,
bill (16:39):
Right.
FishRod (16:39):
and that they have been understood in context and you're
certain of that, that once youfeel that the students are
confident with it, then youcould go back and maybe break it
down.
Well, and even in like Mesta,they're gonna see meh in other
bill (16:52):
Right.
FishRod (16:52):
a like, like as a pronoun in other situations.
And so that is gonna come up andmaybe, maybe that will pique
their curiosity.
There was like, oh, it was a,when he gave me something, I
used that same word that I usedin Megha.
Right.
So,
bill (17:04):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (17:05):
I'm wondering if that, again, is just like a matter of
feel for us as teachers aboutour students' level of
comprehension and like howacquired those things feel when
we make the transition to beinga little bit more analytical in
comparison with the language.
Because I'm, my thinking is atfirst, like, yeah, like right
off the beginning, I want theconversation.
(17:28):
We have to be like, my name isso-and-so.
What's, what's, what's yourname?
Oh, your name is this.
Hey, everybody there so-and-so'sname is, this is so-and-so's
name this, or so-and-so's namethis, right?
Like,
bill (17:37):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (17:38):
so easy, digestible.
right at the beginning andimmediate feelings of success.
And I would
bill (17:45):
Yes.
FishRod (17:45):
like if it was like, Hey, when I said that it like,
and immediately into grammarexplanation that it
bill (17:51):
Yeah.
FishRod (17:52):
like is like, has like a dampening effect on motivation
or it just breaks the flow alittle bit more
bill (17:57):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (17:57):
can circle back to, circle back to that later as it
were.
bill (18:02):
Yeah.
And also like something to keepin mind is like sometime going
back to like students askquestions like, oh, that, like,
that shows me that they'removing past just meaning.
Like they're getting themeaning.
And now they have freed up andthey, they understand it so well
(18:22):
that their brain has freed upspace for them to pay attention
to something else.
If that's something studentsnotice something, I explain it.
I.
I can't expect them to just getit right because they still have
to process it and they mightjust be a little bit more
conscious of what it is thatthey're saying or of what
(18:45):
they're trying to say.
But it doesn't, just'cause I'veexplained it doesn't mean that
they're going to fix, I'mputting that in quotes.
Fix like a, a non-normativelanguage structure.
FishRod (19:00):
Sure.
bill (19:01):
So, alright.
We've been
FishRod (19:03):
talking
bill (19:03):
gaslighting for a while.
I know so many, so many things.
FishRod (19:07):
these individual phrases and so
bill (19:09):
Yeah.
FishRod (19:10):
The, because the point is that this article is about
multi word sequences, m
bill (19:13):
Right.
Let's dive in.
FishRod (19:15):
how they, yeah.
Like, yeah, uncap this, keep
bill (19:17):
Yeah.
FishRod (19:17):
for us.
bill (19:18):
So this, the article that we read for this episode is
titled the Role of Multi WordSequences in Fluent Speech, the
Case of Listener Based Judgmentin Second Language,
argumentative Speech.
And this is in studies andsecond language acquisition.
Great journal if you're able toaccess.
(19:39):
It is by Karu, AWA and ShungSuzuki.
So right off the bat, multi wordsequences kind of touched on
that, what that means already.
But.
Like, if you've got a singleword, obviously that's not multi
word.
So we just jump up to the twoword pairs.
(20:00):
And so that, are, those arecalled bigrams.
And the study also looked attrigrams, so two word groupings
and three word groupings.
And, so to start off, like they,the, the authors talked about
the perceived fluency and usageof multi word sequences.
(20:25):
So as you might be able toimagine if you give a student a
multi word sequence, like, andwhere they don't have to break
down the different parts of thephrase, and we're just told
like, we use MEO when you'reintroducing yourself.
MEO bill, bin May O'Brien, whatthat, how that might be
(20:50):
perceived by a listener, whichcould you could you help me,
like, help remind me of who theywere asking to like do the
perception of fluency?
FishRod (21:06):
Their Raiders are, were also L two learners of English.
bill (21:11):
Okay.
FishRod (21:11):
perceived to have the higher proficiency level so that
the, the study subjects werekind of in the, in the B one
neighborhood, in the SR rankingsystem.
bill (21:20):
Okay.
FishRod (21:20):
the Raiders were trained teachers who were like
PhD candidates and had takencourses in linguistics and were
giving a training course.
But their linguistic skills wererated closer to like a C one
level.
bill (21:34):
Okay.
FishRod (21:34):
like a major, step up in
bill (21:37):
Yeah.
FishRod (21:37):
closer to native, like in quotation marks production
or, you know, standardizedproduction than the learners who
were the, you know, the subjectsof the study.
But that also, they mentionedthat as part of the limitations
is that it was more, you know,this was a L two learner
judging, an L two learner.
And there might
bill (21:56):
Right,
FishRod (21:57):
perceptions if, like an L one speaker of a language was
judging an L two speaker of alanguage.
So
bill (22:02):
right.
FishRod (22:02):
a thought, an aside.
bill (22:03):
So some things that they looked at were like speech rate.
So if we're able to pull outthese like two or three word
phrases, and like theycommunicate a thought that we
have, like, we're gonna be ableto spit that chunk out pretty
quickly, because we've alreadygot in our head.
(22:24):
So, it could improve like theperception of speech rate.
So if you don't have to stop andthink, what is the next word
that I'm going to say?
But you've got a chunk of wordsthat you can just say like, off
the, like, I don't know.
Off the cuff.
That's the phrase.
Thank you.
I didn't have that multi wordsequence.
(22:47):
Yeah, that is exactly.
So, and I did not have thatmulti word sequence ready to go.
But, that's one thing that theylooked at, like if you're able
to say things quicker, when it,when it is a chunk of, of
language.
It also they, they looked atpause frequency.
So again, if we have these readyto go phrases.
(23:12):
We probably don't have to pauseas frequently to think about
what the next thing that wewanna say.
They also brought upself-repair.
So when you do make a mistake orI'm saying mistake, even though
I've got thoughts on what alanguage mistake is, check out t
with BVP or talking L two.
(23:33):
With BVP, they had an entireepisode on if errors are even
real in language learning, but,like being able to fix, like if
a student says, I'm gonna keepgoing back to like, or, or
whatever.
But if they say, if they intendto say, but they say MEMA with
(23:53):
an A at the end having thischunk of language in their head,
they'll be able to like repairit.
They'll be able to likeself-correct.
And be like, oh no.
And, and keep going on.
Like, I, I was just talking tostudents earlier this week about
how like, I wanna get you to thepoint where, you know what
(24:13):
sounds right, like, but in orderto know what sounds right.
You have to have a lot, a lot ofinput so that you're like, oh,
I've heard these things before,but I've heard I've not heard
them in that order.
Or I've not heard them in thatconstruction before.
So that it like helps students,when it, when they're talking
(24:36):
with someone else, likeunderstand what is or is not,
common speech.
So in that, when people areusing these multi word
sequences, it improves theirperceived fluency.
It makes, it makes you sound,more fluent if you can just
(24:56):
rattle off, some things andanother one in Spanish anyway,
like they, based on kwando, likefrom time to time.
If, like, I don't know if I'veever, I mean now that I'm, I'm
like a fluent speaker of thelanguage.
I know what every single one ofthose words mean.
But, if I were to, again, if Iwere to translate it literally,
(25:18):
it's like from time and when,which is again, going back, it's
not a one-to-one translation,but like, if we have the
meaning, then it doesn't matterif it's a one-to-one translation
because we know the message thatwe're trying to explain and we
get our message across to ourother interlocutors.
(25:41):
Multi word sequences also help,it mirrors native speaker
patterns.
Native speaker patterns.
So, there's so many things thatwe say every single day that are
chunked language.
So, for example, idiomaticexpressions, like I even saw
(26:02):
this like today in class, we'rewatching Pan's Labyrinth in
Spanish four rate film.
Make sure that it's anappropriate film for you to show
at your school.
But it's a great film and the,the word to heal came up like to
heal someone, someone is sick,heal them, or someone has an
(26:22):
injury, heal them.
And I know that you've broughtup before, maybe like you using
passwords in class.
And I have as well, one of myphrases this year was Ana, heel,
heel, little frog tale, if youdon't heel today, you'll heal
tomorrow.
(26:43):
So like I know if I, if someone,if I hear someone say that, like
I know that I don't have tothink about every single word in
that I know that they're wishingme well.
And so when you can rattle offsomething like that, it shows
like, it gives you like someidiomatic expressions, or other,
(27:04):
or communication strategies thatnative speakers use.
And they do talk about how.
Like in for beginners, likebasic locations, like, what's
something in French or German?
Sorry, Brian's not here.
What's something in German?
Like, what's that?
FishRod (27:23):
was ready though.
I was, I was like, gem, like, Ilike, right?
bill (27:26):
Yeah, yeah,
FishRod (27:27):
or like, you
bill (27:28):
yeah, yeah.
FishRod (27:29):
a great one because it's the same thing I call
bill (27:31):
I,
FishRod (27:31):
just like, F finish.
bill (27:32):
yeah.
FishRod (27:33):
Yep.
There you go.
German, like, Eski is, there is,or there are, but it literally
means
bill (27:38):
Okay.
FishRod (27:38):
which my kids are always like, it's giving.
bill (27:40):
giving
FishRod (27:41):
no, no, no, no.
And I'm like, please
bill (27:43):
slate,
FishRod (27:45):
Yeah, but those, those phrases like you, you just kind
of have to like, I can't belike, es skip means it gives,
because then
bill (27:51):
right?
FishRod (27:51):
I don't know you for our listeners, if you're not
aware, that is a you know,colloquial thing to just
describe how the the vibe thatsomething is giving.
bill (28:01):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (28:03):
you know, I think if I, if I taught it in that way, it
would be funny and memorable.
But I think it wouldaccidentally, you know, if I was
like, oh, escaped.
Means there is a library.
But if I taught that kind of inthe English way, they're like,
it's giving
bill (28:16):
It is giving library.
FishRod (28:18):
I'm not trying to say this room is like a library.
I'm saying this room isliterally a li there is a
library at our school.
So yeah, the, again, the, thelike literal or, or you know,
like colloquial translation andstuff like that.
It's
bill (28:30):
Right.
FishRod (28:30):
of be very clear.
bill (28:32):
Also something that, just like with your, with your
example there, something thatlike clicked into my mind was
in, in Spanish, the, the phrasethere is, is I just one word
and, I see students like kind ofgo in reverse from, instead of,
from like Spanish to English,English to Spanish.
(28:53):
Like I see a lot of, I ace.
For, to say there is, but I'mlike, oh, that would just mean
like there is, is, which islike, that's just silly.
I know what you're trying tosay, but I get, but, but, but it
is what?
It's and then so for beginners,like some basic colocation basic
grouping, basic bios, trigramsand then the article talked
(29:18):
about in, for more advanced,learners using idiomatic
expressions.
So, like, and or, like which,eh, the English compare English
(29:40):
thing, version of thattranslation I guess would be
something like every cloud has asilver lining, but like the
literal translation, forsomething good comes from, from
bad things.
Like anytime there's somethingbad, something good will come.
And again, you don't need tounderstand every single word of
that to be able to learn thatphrase and learn the sentiment
(30:04):
behind it, which is going toone, lead to you sounding more
fluent.
But also, being able to usethose kinds of phrases.
It's what is going to helpstudents that are already
performing maybe at like, Idon't know, intermediate, low,
(30:26):
intermediate, mid is using theseextended colocations, these
idiomatic phrases are what, andlike sounding, I'm putting this
in quotes, sounding more native,like is what's going to help
them get a better.
Rating on like a proficiencytest.
Like I know with a stamp beingable to use idiomatic
(30:49):
expressions and culturallanguage, it shows a deeper
understanding of the languagethat you already have.
So if I know that this phrasethat doesn't exactly translate
works in whatever context I'mwriting about, and whoever's
writing my writing or speakingor whatever, it's going to
(31:13):
demonstrate to that person thatnot only do I understand how to
put language together, I alsounderstand that that I, that I
need to add something to mylanguage to really demonstrate
that not only do I know how totranslate words, but I can like,
(31:38):
share my heart in the language,which I am gonna say.
Dr.
Bruno, she's at Michigan State.
She had posted on social media awhile ago about like, artificial
intelligence, ai she had postedon, on social media about how
like, you know, AI can translatefor us, but it can't really
(32:01):
like, help you speak tosomeone's heart.
So like, it doesn't, translatorsin general as well, like don't
understand sentiment of what wewant to say.
So by using some of these likemulti word sequences, we can
take all of like the meaningthat we have, that we want to
(32:23):
communicate and share itsuccinctly in a culturally
appropriate way.
And I think that's just realcool.
So long story short, I, theselike groupings of phrases.
Or groupings of words can help,students communicate more
(32:45):
easily.
It can help them be perceived asmore fluent and when you're
thinking about how to organize,like the vocabulary that you're
giving to students, see how youcan put some words together that
are like natural combinationsthat will be used over and over
and over.
FishRod (33:05):
What I appreciate about this is that, you know, it kind
of laid out what fluency is, isthat there's fluency of the, the
use a model from sitz which it,there's fluency of the
utterance.
There's cognitive fluency andthen perceived fluency.
So utterance is just literallyhow
bill (33:24):
Thank you.
FishRod (33:24):
are you getting the words across your lips?
What sort of pauses are youtaking, that sort of things.
Cognitive fluency is then likehow you're processing the
language, like how quickly it'smoving through your brain and,
and through the brain of yourlistener, that sort of thing.
And perceived fluency is thensomebody else is listening to
you.
Do they perceive that you'refluent?
And what, you know, what doesthat look like?
And that kind of in the, theliterature review was, it was
(33:46):
helpful and interesting for meto see that.
Y yes.
Like most of people's perceivedfluency is based on their rate
of speech.
How often do they stop to takepauses and how many words can
they get their tongue in acertain amount of time.
And so what was cool is thenwhen you have this study.
They controlled for the rate ofspeech because they were like,
(34:09):
yeah, we understand that ifpeople speak faster, people
perceive them to be more fluent,just as like a fluent as an
idea.
And we know that that is thebiggest component of their
fluency score.
So they controlled for that andsaid, okay, we're gonna take
people who are saying roughlythe amount, same amount of words
at the same time.
You know, we're gonna put theirkind of samples next to each
other.
(34:29):
But then compare was using moreof these diagrams and trigrams,
which again are two word phrasesthree word phrases.
You know, even the, the examplethat they gave is like, agree
with is a
bill (34:41):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (34:42):
that
bill (34:43):
Yeah.
FishRod (34:43):
just say as a thing.
So I agree with the speaker, butif you said, I agree, the
speaker.
Even with the same speed, itsounds, it might sound less
fluent.
And
bill (34:53):
Yeah.
FishRod (34:53):
You know, in Spanish,
bill (34:55):
Yep.
FishRod (34:55):
like this, that's a phrase.
If you can just get I agree.
I I am, I am in agreement with Iam of the agreement.
bill (35:02):
In concordance with,
FishRod (35:04):
Exactly, yeah.
That if you,
bill (35:05):
yeah.
FishRod (35:05):
that speed is rate of speech of neutralized.
It's the people that are usingthat, these more, like you said,
native like con connections,these more native like groupings
of words that are gettingperceived as being slightly more
fluent.
bill (35:23):
Hmm.
FishRod (35:24):
You know, fluency is one of those things.
It comes up in my class all thetime.
Like, how do you know whenyou're fluent?
What do I gotta do to be fluent?
What does fluency look like?
And I, I think when we'reteaching in a communicative way,
we need to like, be able to putmarkers on our students' path of
like, I.
You fluently communicated yourage, you know, like you fluently
communicated
bill (35:41):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (35:42):
likes and interests and who's in your, who's, like,
who's close in your socialcircle, that sort of thing.
You know, whatever it is.
Like we need to put thosemarkers on there, but, you know,
kids are also competitive withthemselves and want to put
little you know, these kind of,wanna speak faster and speak
more words and all these sortsof things.
And so if we can give them thesephrases, it's nice also to just
(36:02):
pump them up with like, yeah,and you sound like a native
speaker.
Like you sound like a
bill (36:06):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (36:06):
like an Austrian when you say, you know, when you say
blah, blah blah.
And then like, rattle off a listof things versus like stopping
and being like, a lot of my kidshave, have hit me with like the
deist, which is just the, is, itdoesn't even make sense in
German.
But it's
bill (36:21):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (36:22):
like English braining it still.
But
bill (36:24):
Alright.
FishRod (36:25):
once they get like steeped as a construction, then
they can rattle off lists ofstuff like all the time.
And so yeah, we want them tospeak faster.
Like that is a huge component oftheir fluency.
But what if you neutralize forthat?
It's the people that are usingthese natural groupings of words
together.
And again, it's even as these,as small as groupings as two and
three words that are makingthese speakers come across as
(36:47):
more fluent to the personlistening to them.
Another part that wasinteresting to me that I enjoyed
reading was about that, becauseyour brain not necessarily just
access one word at a time when
bill (37:02):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:03):
Like we're not just going dpe, dpe, dpe.
We actually are activatingpathways of multiple words at
the same time.
When you're learning thesegroups of bigrams and trigrams
or longer phrases that just kindof go all together, like De San
Juan, like that sort of thing.
bill (37:16):
Quad grams
FishRod (37:18):
that's it.
Quad Yeah.
Quadgrams,
bill (37:20):
in qua.
Anyway, sorry.
FishRod (37:23):
But like that, when you're learning those.
learning that as like one thing.
So you're not learning
bill (37:29):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:29):
you're learning one thing.
So when your brain is accessingit, it's not using energy to
access four things, it is using
bill (37:35):
Yep.
FishRod (37:36):
to
bill (37:36):
L
FishRod (37:37):
the one
bill (37:37):
Yeah.
Lowering the, lowering thecognitive load,
FishRod (37:40):
when you, when you lower their cognitive load, they
are feeling more fluent becausethey're again,
bill (37:46):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:46):
one thing versus four things.
And not struggling to pull eachword out, but then the person
listening to them, cognitiveload is also reduced because
they are hearing.
The group, which to them is alsoone thing.
bill (37:59):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (37:59):
they're activating networks of language versus,
again, trying to pluckindividual words out, which have
been learned kind of inisolation.
bill (38:05):
Yeah.
FishRod (38:06):
exist in isolation in the brain.
And so it is helps, it's aprocessing advantage for the
speaker, but also for thelistener.
And so I think again, thatspeaks to like the power of
teaching these that go togetherbecause they are learning them
together.
They are then accessing them alltogether.
bill (38:24):
I'm wondering about from, from the production side, we see
that it's easier to pull outthese two, three forward
groupings and just like spit'emout.
But I'm also thinking about howmuch, I mean, you've already
said this, I'm just restating, Iguess, but like, it's easier to
(38:48):
guess what's going to come nextand when, when you're listening
to someone, when you're readingsomething, it's easier to guess
what comes next.
It's easier to have like, alittle bit more context when
you're like, oh, I know thiswhole phrase already.
So like, it's easier to justlike, which good thing, bad
thing, I guess.
(39:09):
Like it's easier to just likeskim over.
Yeah, like if it looks familiarenough and it, and the meaning
works, it's easier to go on tothe next part that maybe you
isn't as clear.
But then your brain has thepower to think a little bit more
about it.
Like taking apart the individualparts of individual pieces of
(39:33):
the word, the, the morphemes, ifyou will, and be like, oh, that
goes there, that goes there,that goes there.
And all of those things areconnected, and now I know what
it means.
And so I, I don't know.
I would be interested in like afurther study about, what
learners, like what learnersguess would come next.
(39:54):
I guess.
Like if you give learners likethe start of one of these multi
word sequences like.
What do they think is gonna comenext, or something like that.
But that's just my teacherresearcher brain.
Just a thought.
FishRod (40:11):
If we know that, if we know that teaching and learning
multi learn word sequences makesour learners be perceived as
more fluent, how can we go aboutdoing that in instruction?
How can we girl, boss usingthose multi word sequences in
our fluent speech.
bill (40:31):
Yeah.
So one of the tools that I liketo use, although again, it's,
it's a tool.
I use this from time to time.
Sentence builders, or you mightknow them as substitution
tables.
So in a sentence builder orsubstitution table, it sometimes
(40:51):
looks like a bunch of columns.
So in, I'm going to give a very,very rudimentary example, but
maybe we can find a link tosomething to post in the, in the
notes.
So maybe the first column haslike subject pronouns.
And I'll just do like a simplesubject verb object.
(41:13):
The second column has, maybedifferent, just like I, so I'm
thinking Spanish like I walk, Italk, I run, and then, and the
next column it would be like.
Con amigos with friends or soloby myself.
(41:38):
Something like that.
So again, bad example, like avery rudimentary example.
But the idea is that if you takesomething from the first column,
something from the secondcolumn, something from the third
column, no matter what it is inthe list it will make like a
logical cent or not, maybe notlogical, but like, dramatically
correct sentence.
FishRod (41:59):
Yeah, sure.
bill (42:00):
It, and what you can do in those is make it so that it,
these word groupings have to gotogether.
So, we've already got columns,but then you start adding rows.
So like, you have to selectsomething from each column, but
then the rows have to line up.
(42:22):
So.
Maybe in the first column, inthe first row, there's, first
column, first row.
There's just the subject pronounI in the second column.
First row you got a coupledifferent I forms of verbs.
Again, that's for Spanish orsome other conjugation
(42:44):
languages.
And then the third column, itwould be like prepositional
phrases, objects, adverbs oftime, something like that.
That could go potentially withjust that first row or maybe it
goes with anything.
So you have to take column one,row one, column two, row one,
(43:08):
but then maybe column three, anyof'em can go with any of the
other rows.
And again.
Theoretically makes agrammatically correct sentence.
Now, what this does is it forcesstudents to, create
grammatically correct sentencesin a way that like, one lowering
(43:31):
cognitive load.
I know that these two rows haveto have something in common, and
then the third row, somewhatever.
But, then for, well, for me, themagic comes from going from,
again, like individual words.
So instead of just like, firstcolumn being subject pronouns,
(43:53):
let's just get rid of that.
And then the second column,instead of like, Camino put Yo
Camino, so they have to use thatchunk.
And then that chunk has to gowith whatever in the next column
to make, again, grammatically,but perhaps not logically,
comprehensible sentence.
(44:15):
And if you use the, if you everlook into the sentence builder
website, like you can set thesethings up so that, like say I do
something that I've, I've donethis year is like I, medical
recommendations, so I've got aheadache.
(44:36):
Okay.
And then that might be like thephrase, that might be the multi
word sequence.
I have a headache.
Or like, with subjunctive, likeI suggest that, like the, that
needs to go with it.
So like, if I'm trying to teachthe students that, like, when
you're giving suggestions, youneed to have a, the, the word
(44:57):
that in Spanish, even though wemight not say it in English,
just by like showing'em in thesentence builder over and over
and over, that this, this wordand this word have to go
together.
That's gonna hopefully, I guess,I need to do more research into
like what these like subsubstitution tables or sentence
builders.
(45:17):
I need to do more research intothem.
I've only done them likepractically and they're fun.
Like I, I like them.
I think I've seen some goodresults from using them.
But again, like it's, it's allabout like patterns and I.
Making sure that the words thatare supposed to go together
completely go together.
So that's something that I've,I've done that I've found, to be
(45:41):
at least like n noticeablyhelpful.
FishRod (45:45):
I've seen that for German as well.
And a lot of the times, like yousaid, the options that you're
choosing from in any givencolumn or row.
Are not just individual words.
So it'll be
bill (45:56):
correct?
FishRod (45:56):
with my friends la say three word
bill (45:58):
Yes.
FishRod (45:59):
with
bill (45:59):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (46:00):
as a three word phrase.
Right?
And so I think that those can behelpful ways to model those,
know, phrases that they wanna beable to whip out at any time.
They don't want to have to belike,
bill (46:08):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (46:09):
what's the word for my, what's the word for, you know,
they, they don't need to analyzeit, they just need to be able to
whip out though with my friends,with my family.
And so I think, yeah, that canbe a good way to model those
like diagrams and diagrams and,
bill (46:20):
Yeah.
FishRod (46:21):
so I've used those to a certain extent.
And I used use you knowAmerican, US American listeners
might be, you know, have seen aconference session or two about
chat mats, which function in asimilar
bill (46:32):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (46:32):
Often
bill (46:32):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
For sure.
FishRod (46:34):
groupings of words together versus just one
individual word.
So it's putting language incontext, like, here's how you
might use it in a sentenceversus in a very dry list that
doesn't, you know, I.
Show usage doesn't show realworld communication.
I think another thing we can
bill (46:50):
S.
FishRod (46:50):
the service of our students is to teach them like
fillers and repair phrases.
Because even if, you know, ifthey pause and are trying to
draw on their, their individualword knowledge to try to figure
out how to say what they want tosay a way, a simple way to make
them perhaps feel more fluentand then again to look more
fluent is just to teach them thelittle, you know, or the, you
bill (47:14):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (47:15):
I've been thinking about or I wonder if, those
sorts of phrases that we usewhen we're buying ourselves time
and our thinking even in our Lone to them time, but also it's
something that they can accessas a phrase quickly when they
maybe do need to think a littlebit more thoroughly about what's
trying to
bill (47:34):
Yep.
FishRod (47:35):
and what's coming next.
bill (47:36):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (47:37):
so
bill (47:37):
In Spanish four, we're in Spanish four.
We're really trying to getplace,
FishRod (47:42):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
bill (47:42):
place, place.
What else?
And, and anything else?
FishRod (47:46):
do I tell, I tell my students also too, like we, I do
rejoinder in class, which are
bill (47:51):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (47:52):
useful phrases that you know, pop people pop into
conversations as a way to showagreement or disagreement or
express frustration or concernor doubt or all sorts of things.
And again, there are, you knowsomething, it's something like,
like, don't, you don't say,
bill (48:08):
Yes.
FishRod (48:09):
how nice.
These are the sorts of thingsthat if you're popping into
conversation, I tell mystudents, you sound so German,
you sound so Austrian.
That can be a way, you know,increased perceived fluency, but
also give students some, some, away to contribute to
conversations
bill (48:24):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (48:24):
not ready to contribute full sentences right away, or if
they, you know, theconversations as they do go by
so fast, like they can still.
Be a part of them and beunderstanding and maybe, you
know, when they have time tospeak for themselves can do
that, but they can justinterject with these short
memorized phrases.
And I use them in the classroomas like they're posted on my
wall.
(48:45):
I teach them explicitly.
We review them over and overagain, but I've also used them
as classroom passwords.
bill (48:51):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (48:52):
the phrase in my opinion in German is so silly.
It's, which literally means myopinion after.
like, it is just like, oh God,like it's so terrible to try to
teach individually.
But if you can just get the kidssaying that phrase over and over
again, then they're whippingthat phrase out in speaking in
writing because it just came asa group.
(49:12):
And you don't have to
bill (49:13):
Yeah.
FishRod (49:13):
'cause, because I've also had students try to go the
other way around and try to doin my mine, which is like not
quite as I,
bill (49:20):
Yeah.
FishRod (49:21):
not idiomatic.
So you know, getting, gettingthose phrases and teaching them
it just as memorized phrases asgroups.
However you have to.
I use, I the ones that when Ihave memorized phrases that I
have a hard time teaching in theclassroom.
I just make it into a passwordfor the class so that the
students have to say it to mebefore they come in.
So that
bill (49:39):
Mm-hmm.
FishRod (49:39):
have to retrieve it frequently, every day for at
least a week.
And when we review them, I cansay like, Hey, look at all these
passwords are, are helpfulthings to throw into any
conversation.
So that can
bill (49:51):
Yeah.
FishRod (49:52):
teach those sort of phrases that are fillers or
repair or easy to throw intosentences.
bill (49:59):
And then one thing that I was reminded of as you were
talking about rejoins, issomething that I've done
recently to a girl boss, some ofthese s's, is I actually, I went
onto Canva without the s, notthe learning management system,
(50:20):
but the design software.
And I just created like, theselike two by three, maybe not,
maybe not even that.
Little cards that, have.
I made three different cards.
So in, in my classroom I've got,things of chairs and threes.
(50:42):
So three different rejoindercards, or I made three different
cards with a different list ofrejoins on each of the three.
So in each set of three, there'ssay like 18 different rejoinder,
and I just took some packingtape and taped them down onto
(51:02):
the desk.
So, students have thoserejoinders and a variety of
rejoinders just ready to go atany given point, but they only
have like six in front of'em.
But I do change seats enoughthat students get at least, get
at least exposure to thedifferent sets of rejoinders.
(51:25):
And then.
I, because I started this at theend of the year.
I haven't done this yet, but myhope is to maybe every quarter
or at the semester, change outthe rejoinder on, on the
desktops.
So that when they just lookdown, like, and I tell them, I'm
like, like, use these phraseslike one, you're gonna sound
(51:47):
real cool because like, my, myfavorite one that I've got on on
there is, like from from PuertoRico WIPA
FishRod (51:57):
Mm-hmm.
bill (51:58):
which I translate, because of Justin Silke Bailey as wow,
we z.
And so like, that's like areally fun, fun thing to use and
to like embed that with likeTPR, like instead of a total
physical response, it's like atotal verbal response.
(52:19):
So like the other day in, inSpanish one, we learned the
phrase to have fun.
So I told students like, everysingle time that I say the
phrase to have fun, you need tosay and like, sound like you're
having fun.
And that showed me that one,they're hearing the word and
hopefully like connecting themeaning with, with something
(52:41):
like energetic.
And then just randomly I saidthe phrase to have fun.
And a student with a zeroprompting just shouted wipa.
It's been a couple days since,since we, since we did that.
Like, it just like automatic, itwas a lot of fun.
So
FishRod (52:58):
I've been thinking, I went to a session with Paul Les,
the Montana language Teacher ofthe year a couple years ago.
And he, one of his phrases thatI was like, oh my gosh, why
haven't I been teaching this wassh Vita in German, which is
like, it literally means alreadyagain.
So it can either be like yetagain or kinda like, not this
again, sort of, and that isanother one that my students
(53:20):
have weaponized and use all thetime.
If like, something weird happensin my classroom, which it often
does, they're just like, notthis again.
And I'm like, I'm like, I'mlike, that's fair.
Drag me.
But I think, I, I think myfinal, my, my final like girl
bossy thought is, is how we planand teach.
Like we need to be looking aheadto the sort of communicative
(53:43):
demands that we wanna make ofour students.
We need to think about what wewant them to express or
interpret in terms of meaning,and then provide vocabulary
that's presented in such a waythat it's immediately useful for
them for the purposes of thosecommunicative goals.
Like again, if we want to beable to describe people, we need
to have words in describinglanguage, in useful forms for
(54:05):
that sort of thing.
If we want to express opinions,we need to have expressive
opinion language that is in theform that you're gonna say it in
or that you're gonna write itin.
And so having those phrases, youknow, instead of, you know,
listing the infinitive orlisting, you know, single words,
just having a set phrase alreadyconjugated whatever.
(54:25):
And then if, you know, should aword come up in a different
context with a slightlydifferent conjugation, different
subject, whatever it might be,you can sometimes just, you
know, activate that in thestudent's brain just by saying.
original phrase that theylearned and like the context
that they learned it, and thenjust kind of changing, you know,
transferring the context.
And so I think that we need tothink ahead of like what we're
(54:47):
gonna ask our students to do andthen make our, you know,
vocabulary presentations.
However, if it's throughstories, if it's through PQA, if
it's through, you know, picturesand sorts of things we need to
make those, thinking of howwe're going to be asking the
students to process thelanguage, but then also how we
in this unit, in thisinstructional sequence want them
(55:09):
to then use it.
And so we need to be able topresent it in that way.
So it takes a little bit offorethought of, you know, like,
know, I, I need them to be ableto make medical recommendations,
like you said.
So I need to have my opinionphrases conjugated probably to
the yo form, to the I formbecause it's you giving the
opinion.
So you don't wanna give them,you give, okay.
(55:31):
I am of the opinion that, youknow, those sorts of things.
So using that as a planningconsideration to get these
useful word phrases, multi wordsequences, just ease.
So easy to access because theyhave been presented in the way
that we're going to use them.
We've used them then in thatway.
(55:51):
And to build that fluency andbuild that sense of
accomplishment for our studentsbecause that's what we want.
bill (55:58):
Slay.
FishRod (55:58):
left?
Diva Diva girl.
bill (56:00):
Not for me.
I will say that.
It has been sad to not haveBrian with us these past couple
episodes, but I'm glad to talkwith you and hopefully our next
episode, which, I mean, what isthis episode?
18?
FishRod (56:18):
It will be episode 18.
bill (56:20):
Yeah, we've got two more left and then we're gonna take a
break for the summer.
Right.
It seems like the plan seemslike the plan.
So, we look forward toconnecting you all back with
Brian in, in the coming weeks.
And until then, get out thereand slate.
(56:42):
Bye.
Oh, one more thing.
Over the past year, I have beendoing the full parent share,
which is a program that they doto connect, mentors and mentees.
And I have really dropped theball these past couple episodes
because, my parent sharepartner, Elizabeth has been
(57:05):
asking me to give her a littleshout out.
So I, and I have not, she saidshe listened to us every single
time an episode drops.
So, shout out to Elizabeth.
And the word that she's beenwanting me to say was Cat.
So she wanted me to send alittle signal to her.
So I think, I think thisexplicit mention of her name
(57:27):
probably is a little bit betterthan saying the word cat.
But, hi Elizabeth
FishRod (57:32):
Hi,
bill (57:33):
and Slay.
FishRod (57:34):
too.
Okay, go forth and slate.
bill (57:36):
Bye bye.
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