January 4, 2025 • 20 mins
The script discusses the Detroit Lions' Pro Bowl selections, a significant representation for the team. Highlighted players include Jared Goff, Amon-Ra St. Brown, Frank Ragnow, Penei Sewell, Jack Fox, Jahmyr Gibbs, and Brian Branch. The discussion emphasizes KerbyJoseph's significant performance as a safety, his Pro Bowl snub, and speculation on the reasoning behind it. Comparisons with other players, voting processes, and statistical accomplishments are examined, especially focusing on Joseph's interceptions and overall impact.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason Harwood (00:04):
right, Jacob.
Pro Bowl team was announced forour Detroit Lions.
We are well represented thisyear.
This is the first time I've seenso many Lions names ever listed
on a Pro Bowl sheet.
Jacob (00:16):
Exactly, usually it's like, did we make it?
Did somebody make it?
Like, please let somebody be onthere.
And now we're flooded withselections.
Jason Harwood (00:24):
Yeah, they don't have the same rule in the NFL
where every team getsrepresented like they do in
baseball, in baseball, all stargames, everyone has to be
represented for a lot of time,the lines wouldn't have a
representative, or, we get JackFox in there, we get our
Jacob (00:38):
Yeah.
Jason Harwood (00:38):
you know, that, that was our, that's where we
could hang our hat, So startersjerr golf well, deserved fourth
selection for the pro bowl.
So that's awesome.
I'm in raw St.
Brown.
You know, he's going to make it.
Although he didn't make it lastyear.
The initial ball, right?
He gets in the pro, it gets inthe all pro, but doesn't get a
pro ball.
They made sure to not make thesame mistake this time.
(01:00):
boy, Frank rag.
Now he's in pen, a soul, youknow, he was going to make it.
And then.
The player I mentioned before,Jack Fox.
He plays about half the gamesfor Lions because, we don't have
to punt.
But when we do need him, hecomes up huge.
Who made it for the reserves,Jacob?
Jacob (01:17):
Reserves.
So Jameer Gibbs, obviously verydeserving, top running back in
the league right now for sure.
He's put up there.
I don't know if you saw, theyposted a statistic earlier.
I think it was Justin Rogers weenvision Jameer Gibbs kind of
being like a Alvin Kamara typeback.
And, you know, it's the secondseason and he's already, I think
it's the scrimmage yards, right?
He's already surpassed thescrimmage yards from Alvin
Kamara.
Jason Harwood (01:37):
Yeah, that, that Alvin Kamara has ever done.
So
Jacob (01:40):
Great.
Jason Harwood (01:41):
know last year when he, uh, when Jameer was a
rookie, we were hoping AlvinKamara, thing would come to
fruition and he's more than donethat and what's crazy is that,
splitting time for the most partwhen Dave Montgomery isn't hurt,
he's splitting time.
He's not on the field all thetime, which is even more
impressive that he's able to putup those stats.
Jacob (02:03):
Exactly.
He doesn't have as many touchesas some of these other running
backs.
And he's still able to do, youknow, a really good job.
On the reserve, first time,safety Brian Branch.
Also, very deserving, veryhardworking player, constantly.
Just a huge part of our defense.
Jason Harwood (02:18):
Yeah, just.
Yeah, getting the recognition,Tom Grousey will be all mad that
he's, Packers missed on branchand we capitalized on letting
him fall to us.
So love having branch out there.
We also had along with thoseseven players, which is the
second most in the league, theRavens had nine players elected,
(02:39):
the Lions had seven.
but we also had 11 players namedas alternates for the pro bowl,
which.
Again, insane.
Jacob (02:48):
I know we mentioned it on the pod, but if you didn't hear
that, but most of these guyswere, you know, top 3 or top 5
in the fan vote, and that wasannounced just a couple days
before they had the actualofficial, final voting results.
So, I believe the fan vote wassupposed to count for a third,
right?
They split it into three andthey all held equal weight?
Jason Harwood (03:07):
Um, is it
Jacob (03:09):
That's the part.
Jason Harwood (03:10):
this before the last game of the season?
Jacob (03:13):
Yes, that's what I was just gonna say, is I don't
understand.
And, for the fan vote to end,and then right after that, the
player and coaches vote, like,Who voted on this?
When did they vote on this?
Did they vote on this monthsago?
Jason Harwood (03:24):
Yeah.
Jacob (03:24):
Because a lot changes towards the end of the year.
Can you imagine voting on MVPlike in the middle of the
season?
Jason Harwood (03:30):
Well, I mean, Kirby Joseph, who we're going to
talk about in a little bit, gottwo interceptions on Monday.
When did this vote go down?
He leads the league inintercept.
I, I don't get it, man.
let's, uh, all those questionsare, uh, I guess for another
podcast, but yeah, it, it floorsme a little bit that we don't
the whole season play out.
(03:52):
Let's talk about this Kirby theleague leader in interceptions
with nine, it's not even thefirst alternative.
The second alternative, why doyou think he got left off?
We'll start there.
Yep.
Jacob (04:11):
perception that people have of him that he's a dirty
player.
It really makes me, there's twothings that could have happened.
We kind of just mentioned theone.
Either the voting between thecoaches and the players
happened.
A week, you know, a couple ofweeks or a month ago or
something like way in advancebefore that, you know, multi
interception game, becausebefore that he kind of was neck
and neck with McKinney as far asthe stats and everything went,
(04:33):
they had the same number ofinterceptions, you know, it was
kind of give or take maybe, youknow, coaches and players are
voting.
They're like, Hey, there's a lotof lions in here.
Packers need represented.
We'll put McKinney in here.
Who knows if that's how thatconversation went.
But the other thing is just theperception that he.
Is a dirty player.
And you know, when you see that,that's all the Twitter rage and
everything that's going on rightnow.
(04:54):
That's really the only thingthat I, the only argument that I
see being made against him isjust that he's a dirty player,
right?
I mean, that's, you know, youput any stat line that you can
think of out there and heabsolutely deserves a pro bono
nod and he really should be inthe defensive player of the year
running.
I feel like he is.
I know he's not, uh, you know,being a public name, he's not
(05:16):
one of the betting names rightnow, but.
You know, the stats speak forthemselves and nobody can,
nobody can defend XavierMcKinney starting over him
without mentioning theperception that he's a dirty
player and he has one penaltythis year for unnecessary
roughness.
Jason Harwood (05:33):
Yeah.
And that was just this pastweek, uh, for protecting Terry
and Arnold.
It was after the play and itwasn't a dirty hit or anything.
He just
Jacob (05:41):
Right,
Jason Harwood (05:42):
shoved them.
And,
Jacob (05:43):
right.
Jason Harwood (05:45):
yeah.
I get with that.
When you look at his.
He was doesn't hit people in thehelmets.
I know, I know the thought is a,it's a dirty player.
Cause two players went out withthese I, those things happen
like low hits happen all thetime.
You don't want to hit peoplehigh because you don't want to
give them a concussion.
(06:06):
And so you hit them low andKirby's not the biggest guy.
The two players that he didcause knee injuries to were big
tight ends, huge tight ends.
He's not going to come in andhit them.
He's got to hit them low to getthem down.
It just happened that he causedthat a knee injury happened.
But the, I think that that'smore of coincidence that those
(06:28):
cause knee injuries and notsomething that he's trying to
do.
Jacob (06:33):
Yeah.
I mean, even when he returnedthe interception, he got hit low
and he got flipped up to that's,that's a football play.
I mean, that's how a tackleworks.
And you know, it's harder forthe receiver maybe to get ready
for it when they're catching andturning around, but at the same
time, you can't get ran over,and that's kind of what the NFL
wants.
You don't want to go low, youwant to go for their hips, or
below, you want to drop down.
(06:54):
It kind of was just the perfectstorm, and it's just really
unfortunate that it happenedtwice.
But there was no way, you know,even if Kirby thought, like, I'm
gonna take this guy's knee out,it's not that easy to just lay a
perfect hit with your helmet onsomebody's knee, that's not what
he was going for.
Jason Harwood (07:09):
I think another thing that couples in there is
just what Stafford, was miked upand basically called out Kirby
after the, after, he hit thetight end for the Rams and they,
basically said, I've seen you ontape, you're a dirty player.
And I think the general publicran with that and, then it's all
the rage on.
On social media, which isunfortunate because Kirby's
(07:31):
having an amazing year.
He deserves this recognition.
So talk about it.
What, what stats you got to backup your claim that Kirby should
be taken over Xavier
Jacob (07:40):
got all the stats.
So these are all provided fromPro Football Focus.
Some of them are ratings, butsome of these are actual
statistics as well.
Xavier McKinney was voted thestarter for the Pro Bowl.
The first alternate was theAtlanta Falcons Jesse Bates.
And then you have Kirby Joseph,who is the second alternate.
So just right from the jump,their pro football focus grade,
Kirby leads with a 90.
7, Xavier is 87.
(08:01):
1, Jesse Bates is 81.
3, Rush defense, actually XavierMcKinney is last of these three
with a 69.
4, uh, Jesse is 84.
9, Kirby is 82.
6, and then the coverage grade,Kirby's 91.
5, Xavier 90.
4, Jesse 80.
8.
So of the pro football focusratings, which I know those you
(08:23):
can kind of give and take orwhatever, I mean, Kirby leads in
two of them and he's second inone.
So, you know, like I said, profootball focus, give or take,
whatever.
But I mean, if we're gonna breakdown, here's the stats, okay?
Missed tackles, Jesse Bates has14 missed tackles.
Xavier and Kirby both have fivea piece catches allowed.
(08:45):
Kirby's allowed 16 catchesXavier, 23, Jesse, 27, um,
interceptions.
We already know that, butJesse's got six.
Xavier's got seven.
Kirby's got nine.
You want to talk abouttouchdowns?
You like the defensive scores?
Xavier scored or Xavier is the.
Only one of those three to notscore a touchdown.
Jason Harwood (09:03):
Mm hmm.
Jacob (09:04):
Jesse took one back, Kirby took one back in a huge
way against the Packers.
And then the other, like, uh,the other argument that I saw
somebody make is like, well, youknow, you have to, you have to
take team performance inconsideration where the one seed
we're fighting for the one seedthat, you know, that makes no
sense either, especially forJesse Bates that he put in above
him as the alternate, I, youknow, by and large, it's a
(09:28):
popularity contest and I don'tknow about you.
I'm less concerned about thispobo.
I am concerned, as we were forAmun Ra last year, what this
means for his All Pro status.
Because he deserves that firstteam All Pro.
And I hope that this doesn'tdeter in any way, or this
conversation doesn't, you know,lead in some sort of way where
(09:49):
he doesn't get that.
Jason Harwood (09:51):
yeah, I agree.
Some of the stats that I thinkalso are pretty eye popping are,
we talked about this on the pod,I think with Morgan this last
week, you the league with nineinterceptions, but the QB passer
rating against him is 25.
4, which is the lowest in theleague.
And also the sixth lowest sinceI've been keeping the sat in
(10:13):
2016.
So this is all time level of,production that we're getting
Kirby.
mentioned as 25.
4 passer rating.
If you look at Xavier McKinney,he's at 57.
9.
So you could double Kirby's.
Passer rating against it.
He'd still be lower than XavierMcKinney.
Kirby's only allowed 133 yardspassing.
Whereas Xavier McKinney is up to261 yards.
(10:37):
I will say the advantage XavierMcKinney has is that he does
have a sack and he has four QBpressures.
Generally the lines do not sendJoseph on that.
Whether that's a scheme thing,or, I don't know.
Kirby's that effective in thatarea.
So Xavier McKinney does havethat, but even that it's one
sack.
Both of them are playing.
Pretty far from the line ofscrimmage.
(10:58):
So it's hard for them to get atackle for loss.
But yeah, they, Kirby's got themalmost on all levels.
And I think you're right.
It's all down to a perceptionthing, which is really
unfortunate for Kirby.
Now, some of these things I willmention that things like purple
nods and stuff like that almostare like a year behind sometimes
(11:19):
Kirby's name is out there.
So he's got to give the benefitof the doubt next year when the
players vote and the coachesvote.
That's another thing I don'treally like about when we talked
about the players and coachesvote.
If you're someone in the AFC andyou never saw Kirby play, you
don't know.
You're not like watching tape ofplayers that you don't play
against.
Yes, they, players and coachesshould have a vote, but they're
(11:40):
limited on what they're going tosee or what they have access to.
Um, so I, that's not the end allbe all either players and
coaches voting either.
Jacob (11:49):
Right.
Absolutely.
Just because you had mentionedit, I just wanted to look and
see.
And we, we've sent Kirby.
Kirby's, uh, rushed three timesthis year.
Three snaps, Kirby's rushed.
And that's it.
It just doesn't happen veryoften.
Jason Harwood (12:02):
No, and what was funny is that his one
interception that he did returnfor a touchdown, the Packers was
very close to the line and Ikind of was rushing and then
step back and just got in thepassing lane.
So, know, he can play out closeto the line of scrimmage and
that was obviously a gamechanging play.
One thing that I will say isthat a lot of Kirby's
(12:23):
interceptions.
I looked at all his Xaviers andI've seen all of Kirby's.
Kirby's, there was a fairamount, especially at the
beginning of the season, in theend zone.
And those were game changingplays.
I can even, the first game ofthe year when he stole one from
Stafford, you know, that wasright before the half, he, he
picked that ball off.
That was huge in that game.
(12:44):
Obviously, returning one for atouchdown, huge in that game.
Xaviers did, has not had any inthe red zone, as far as I could,
remember, and certainly none inthe end zone.
So, I mean, Kirby's taken it offin, in key times.
Man,
Jacob (13:05):
didn't make the pro bowl.
We still think, I mean, he stillshould be at the front runner
for all pro.
They're still talking about himbeing an all pro and he still is
being thrown around as defensiveplayer of the year.
Right now the favorite fordefensive player of the year is
Patrick Sertan from the Broncos.
And the second favorite rightnow is TJ Watt.
Do you think there's anypossibility, um, that Kirby wins
(13:28):
it?
And then while we're talkingabout it too, I mean, do you
think that Patrick Surtain, uh,you know, obviously he's the
favorite, but do you think thathe's deserving of defensive
player of the year?
And is it because of the factthat there has not been like a
standout player?
Is it because it's wide open?
There's not anybody breaking anyrecords.
(13:49):
Do you think that's why Kirbyand Patrick Surtain are like in
the conversation?
TJ Watt is in the conversationbecause he's TJ Watt.
He's not performing at the levelthat he has.
Okay.
Okay.
(14:11):
Okay.
Jason Harwood (14:23):
wouldn't is if you weren't having quarterbacks,
just having more.
seasons.
And then you had a season likeSaquon where he's, you know,
close to breaking the record orsomething like that.
But this year we've had someawesome quarterback.
So one, a quarterback is goingto get it in defensive line.
It's who can rush thequarterback.
Who's going to affect gameplaythat, that way, usually a.
(14:45):
I'll play with a sack.
However, with them both beinglow and, that's why you have
Patrick Satane and Kirby inthere.
I don't think either one of themwin.
I'm biased because I want to sayKirby's going to do it, but I
just don't, he won't have thevotes votes to get there,
especially with him not makingthe pro ball.
What about you?
(15:05):
are you?
Jacob (15:06):
Well, I mean, it's, it's definitely just a popularity
contest.
T.
J.
Watts actually fourth in sacksright now.
Trey Hendrickson leads theleague in sacks and Trey
Hendrickson is nowhere to befound on there.
Jason Harwood (15:16):
Niles.
Yeah.
Yep.
Jacob (15:17):
Yep.
And mile.
And then daniel Hunter, is closefalling on behind, but yeah, it
is just one of those things.
Historically, a defensivelineman, defensive end.
It's Defensive tackle.
Aaron Donald obviously did itfor a little bit.
Then linebacker, I actually wentback to look just to see as far
as defensive backs for defensiveplayer of the year, Stefan
Gilmore, um, won in 2019 withthe Patriots.
(15:40):
Um, and he had hardly any stats.
Like there were no, that's thething about cornerbacks, right?
Is, you know, and Patrick Sertanthis year, I think he's got like
four interceptions.
Uh, it's just, you know, theimpact that he has on the game
because they're not throwing tothem.
Jason Harwood (15:53):
Yep.
Jacob (15:55):
So, and that's also a perception thing, you know,
they're not throwing at him, sothen the stats aren't there, the
catches aren't there as much,and then, But, uh, yeah, so
that's when Gilmore won last,but the safety that won most
recently was in 2010, it wasTroy Palomalu.
Troy Palomalu that year had 63tackles, 7 interceptions, and 1
(16:16):
sack.
And he was the defensive playerof the year.
But, you know, like I said,
Jason Harwood (16:22):
though.
Jacob (16:23):
right.
No, absolutely.
But it is a popularity thing.
Jason Harwood (16:26):
It is,
Jacob (16:27):
It's who has the most hype.
Jason Harwood (16:30):
it, it is, but I would say with Troy, if you
watched him play, is that heaffected a lot of plays, even if
he didn't make the tackle orwhatever, he, he could affect
the play.
So, I mean, that's really hardwhen you just look at those
stats.
I don't, who votes for theplayer of the year, is it media
or
Jacob (16:48):
It's associated press.
So I think that's the mediathing.
Jason Harwood (16:51):
Right.
You have some media members thatdo their research and do their,
our journalists and, and seeeverything.
And then you have other peoplethat, yeah, it's a popularity
contest or, now it's a socialmedia contest.
Um,
Jacob (17:04):
The thing about Palomalo, which maybe that's a good thing
for Kirby Joseph going forwardtoo, is that Palomalo's best
years were probably leading upto that.
I mean, he was alreadyestablished.
He was, you know, when you'retalking about all over the field
and everything, that's alreadythe type of player that he was.
And then this particular year,when he won defensive player of
the year, it wasn't really Youknow, off the rails, crazy.
(17:25):
You know, it was more so likethere's nobody else.
And then you've got TroyPalomaro.
He's the name he's still playingat a high level.
It's, you know, that's why Isaid before, it just comes down
to a lot of it is just apopularity contest and less
about what you put on the field.
Jason Harwood (17:40):
I don't know why that I think you know, that's
what I said before about theproblems being like a year
behind, it takes a little bit toget, The benefit of the doubt.
And so like, okay, he's havinga, you know, he's having a Kirby
Joseph year.
So yeah, we're going to put himin the pro bowl.
He deserves it, whether it's hisbest year or not.
So I,
Jacob (17:56):
Like I'm in raw, hopefully.
I mean, you know,
Jason Harwood (17:59):
I'm hoping that Kirby gets at nine
interceptions.
Just this past week, the one wasa gift.
That was a bad throw by BrockPurdy, but the second one.
That was all Kirby reading theeyes and doing his thing and
anticipate it.
And that's what changed thisyear.
He's able to do that.
And both those interceptions, ifwe don't get those, lines don't
win that game.
(18:20):
I mean, line, they don't winthat game.
They don't get both thoseinterceptions.
Jacob (18:25):
yes, but I don't, you know, I don't think they take
that into consideration, thegrand scheme of things, the
level of,
Jason Harwood (18:32):
no, I'm just saying
Jacob (18:33):
they just look at the number.
Jason Harwood (18:34):
Yeah, no, I
Jacob (18:35):
Obviously, it's a huge.
Jason Harwood (18:37):
Yeah, it's it's gigantic So but anything else
you want to add to the kirbyargument?
Jacob (18:44):
No, I think I've, I rest my case.
Jason Harwood (18:47):
Yeah, I know I hope that he gets in well,
hopefully he doesn't even haveto play because we're Preparing
for the Superbowl, right?
But
Jacob (18:54):
Right,
Jason Harwood (18:55):
hope for all pro he gets, he gets his nod.
He deserves it.
He's having an amazing year and,uh, he's going to, regardless,
he's going to earn a bigcontract.
Hopefully it's with the lions.
Jacob (19:06):
right.
Hey, he said before the season,he said, I want to lead the
league in interceptions.
And you know, when we hear that,we're like, you know, awesome,
which we already knew, like,awesome.
He's a hard worker.
You know, he's setting goals.
He's got high hopes for theteam.
And then to see it, you know,come to fruition and to see him
actually leading the league ininterceptions and still playing
high, you know, it's justawesome.
Jason Harwood (19:28):
I agree.
Yeah.
When he said that, and I sawthose in the book, I was like,
Oh, that'd be pretty cool if hegot, if he could get like four
or five or something like that.
And I didn't think that he wouldlead the league.
It's not that I don't thinkKirby, it's hard to get
interceptions and some of themare luck.
Dude.
You can look into some of that.
But he's had his fair share of,he used his skill and, and got a
(19:51):
vast majority of thoseinterceptions where, he read the
play.
Right.
Jacob (19:55):
Right.
Jason Harwood (19:56):
All right, Jacob, I think we can take off here.
It's, uh, you can like, andsubscribe.
If you like what you heard, sendus in the comments.
Is there something we'remissing?
Is there someone else that,deserves to be up there that we
should have talked about who isyour defensive player of the
year?
So Jacob, I'm Jason.
Let's go lions.
right, Jacob.
Pro Bowl team was announced forour Detroit Lions.
We are well represented thisyear.
This is the first time I've seenso many Lions names ever listed
on a Pro Bowl sheet.
Jacob (00:16):
Exactly, usually it's like, did we make it?
Did somebody make it?
Like, please let somebody be onthere.
And now we're flooded withselections.
Jason Harwood (00:24):
Yeah, they don't have the same rule in the NFL
where every team getsrepresented like they do in
baseball, in baseball, all stargames, everyone has to be
represented for a lot of time,the lines wouldn't have a
representative, or, we get JackFox in there, we get our
Jacob (00:38):
Yeah.
Jason Harwood (00:38):
you know, that, that was our, that's where we
could hang our hat, So startersjerr golf well, deserved fourth
selection for the pro bowl.
So that's awesome.
I'm in raw St.
Brown.
You know, he's going to make it.
Although he didn't make it lastyear.
The initial ball, right?
He gets in the pro, it gets inthe all pro, but doesn't get a
pro ball.
They made sure to not make thesame mistake this time.
(01:00):
boy, Frank rag.
Now he's in pen, a soul, youknow, he was going to make it.
And then.
The player I mentioned before,Jack Fox.
He plays about half the gamesfor Lions because, we don't have
to punt.
But when we do need him, hecomes up huge.
Who made it for the reserves,Jacob?
Jacob (01:17):
Reserves.
So Jameer Gibbs, obviously verydeserving, top running back in
the league right now for sure.
He's put up there.
I don't know if you saw, theyposted a statistic earlier.
I think it was Justin Rogers weenvision Jameer Gibbs kind of
being like a Alvin Kamara typeback.
And, you know, it's the secondseason and he's already, I think
it's the scrimmage yards, right?
He's already surpassed thescrimmage yards from Alvin
Kamara.
Jason Harwood (01:37):
Yeah, that, that Alvin Kamara has ever done.
So
Jacob (01:40):
Great.
Jason Harwood (01:41):
know last year when he, uh, when Jameer was a
rookie, we were hoping AlvinKamara, thing would come to
fruition and he's more than donethat and what's crazy is that,
splitting time for the most partwhen Dave Montgomery isn't hurt,
he's splitting time.
He's not on the field all thetime, which is even more
impressive that he's able to putup those stats.
Jacob (02:03):
Exactly.
He doesn't have as many touchesas some of these other running
backs.
And he's still able to do, youknow, a really good job.
On the reserve, first time,safety Brian Branch.
Also, very deserving, veryhardworking player, constantly.
Just a huge part of our defense.
Jason Harwood (02:18):
Yeah, just.
Yeah, getting the recognition,Tom Grousey will be all mad that
he's, Packers missed on branchand we capitalized on letting
him fall to us.
So love having branch out there.
We also had along with thoseseven players, which is the
second most in the league, theRavens had nine players elected,
(02:39):
the Lions had seven.
but we also had 11 players namedas alternates for the pro bowl,
which.
Again, insane.
Jacob (02:48):
I know we mentioned it on the pod, but if you didn't hear
that, but most of these guyswere, you know, top 3 or top 5
in the fan vote, and that wasannounced just a couple days
before they had the actualofficial, final voting results.
So, I believe the fan vote wassupposed to count for a third,
right?
They split it into three andthey all held equal weight?
Jason Harwood (03:07):
Um, is it
Jacob (03:09):
That's the part.
Jason Harwood (03:10):
this before the last game of the season?
Jacob (03:13):
Yes, that's what I was just gonna say, is I don't
understand.
And, for the fan vote to end,and then right after that, the
player and coaches vote, like,Who voted on this?
When did they vote on this?
Did they vote on this monthsago?
Jason Harwood (03:24):
Yeah.
Jacob (03:24):
Because a lot changes towards the end of the year.
Can you imagine voting on MVPlike in the middle of the
season?
Jason Harwood (03:30):
Well, I mean, Kirby Joseph, who we're going to
talk about in a little bit, gottwo interceptions on Monday.
When did this vote go down?
He leads the league inintercept.
I, I don't get it, man.
let's, uh, all those questionsare, uh, I guess for another
podcast, but yeah, it, it floorsme a little bit that we don't
the whole season play out.
(03:52):
Let's talk about this Kirby theleague leader in interceptions
with nine, it's not even thefirst alternative.
The second alternative, why doyou think he got left off?
We'll start there.
Yep.
Jacob (04:11):
perception that people have of him that he's a dirty
player.
It really makes me, there's twothings that could have happened.
We kind of just mentioned theone.
Either the voting between thecoaches and the players
happened.
A week, you know, a couple ofweeks or a month ago or
something like way in advancebefore that, you know, multi
interception game, becausebefore that he kind of was neck
and neck with McKinney as far asthe stats and everything went,
(04:33):
they had the same number ofinterceptions, you know, it was
kind of give or take maybe, youknow, coaches and players are
voting.
They're like, Hey, there's a lotof lions in here.
Packers need represented.
We'll put McKinney in here.
Who knows if that's how thatconversation went.
But the other thing is just theperception that he.
Is a dirty player.
And you know, when you see that,that's all the Twitter rage and
everything that's going on rightnow.
(04:54):
That's really the only thingthat I, the only argument that I
see being made against him isjust that he's a dirty player,
right?
I mean, that's, you know, youput any stat line that you can
think of out there and heabsolutely deserves a pro bono
nod and he really should be inthe defensive player of the year
running.
I feel like he is.
I know he's not, uh, you know,being a public name, he's not
(05:16):
one of the betting names rightnow, but.
You know, the stats speak forthemselves and nobody can,
nobody can defend XavierMcKinney starting over him
without mentioning theperception that he's a dirty
player and he has one penaltythis year for unnecessary
roughness.
Jason Harwood (05:33):
Yeah.
And that was just this pastweek, uh, for protecting Terry
and Arnold.
It was after the play and itwasn't a dirty hit or anything.
He just
Jacob (05:41):
Right,
Jason Harwood (05:42):
shoved them.
And,
Jacob (05:43):
right.
Jason Harwood (05:45):
yeah.
I get with that.
When you look at his.
He was doesn't hit people in thehelmets.
I know, I know the thought is a,it's a dirty player.
Cause two players went out withthese I, those things happen
like low hits happen all thetime.
You don't want to hit peoplehigh because you don't want to
give them a concussion.
(06:06):
And so you hit them low andKirby's not the biggest guy.
The two players that he didcause knee injuries to were big
tight ends, huge tight ends.
He's not going to come in andhit them.
He's got to hit them low to getthem down.
It just happened that he causedthat a knee injury happened.
But the, I think that that'smore of coincidence that those
(06:28):
cause knee injuries and notsomething that he's trying to
do.
Jacob (06:33):
Yeah.
I mean, even when he returnedthe interception, he got hit low
and he got flipped up to that's,that's a football play.
I mean, that's how a tackleworks.
And you know, it's harder forthe receiver maybe to get ready
for it when they're catching andturning around, but at the same
time, you can't get ran over,and that's kind of what the NFL
wants.
You don't want to go low, youwant to go for their hips, or
below, you want to drop down.
(06:54):
It kind of was just the perfectstorm, and it's just really
unfortunate that it happenedtwice.
But there was no way, you know,even if Kirby thought, like, I'm
gonna take this guy's knee out,it's not that easy to just lay a
perfect hit with your helmet onsomebody's knee, that's not what
he was going for.
Jason Harwood (07:09):
I think another thing that couples in there is
just what Stafford, was miked upand basically called out Kirby
after the, after, he hit thetight end for the Rams and they,
basically said, I've seen you ontape, you're a dirty player.
And I think the general publicran with that and, then it's all
the rage on.
On social media, which isunfortunate because Kirby's
(07:31):
having an amazing year.
He deserves this recognition.
So talk about it.
What, what stats you got to backup your claim that Kirby should
be taken over Xavier
Jacob (07:40):
got all the stats.
So these are all provided fromPro Football Focus.
Some of them are ratings, butsome of these are actual
statistics as well.
Xavier McKinney was voted thestarter for the Pro Bowl.
The first alternate was theAtlanta Falcons Jesse Bates.
And then you have Kirby Joseph,who is the second alternate.
So just right from the jump,their pro football focus grade,
Kirby leads with a 90.
7, Xavier is 87.
(08:01):
1, Jesse Bates is 81.
3, Rush defense, actually XavierMcKinney is last of these three
with a 69.
4, uh, Jesse is 84.
9, Kirby is 82.
6, and then the coverage grade,Kirby's 91.
5, Xavier 90.
4, Jesse 80.
8.
So of the pro football focusratings, which I know those you
(08:23):
can kind of give and take orwhatever, I mean, Kirby leads in
two of them and he's second inone.
So, you know, like I said, profootball focus, give or take,
whatever.
But I mean, if we're gonna breakdown, here's the stats, okay?
Missed tackles, Jesse Bates has14 missed tackles.
Xavier and Kirby both have fivea piece catches allowed.
(08:45):
Kirby's allowed 16 catchesXavier, 23, Jesse, 27, um,
interceptions.
We already know that, butJesse's got six.
Xavier's got seven.
Kirby's got nine.
You want to talk abouttouchdowns?
You like the defensive scores?
Xavier scored or Xavier is the.
Only one of those three to notscore a touchdown.
Jason Harwood (09:03):
Mm hmm.
Jacob (09:04):
Jesse took one back, Kirby took one back in a huge
way against the Packers.
And then the other, like, uh,the other argument that I saw
somebody make is like, well, youknow, you have to, you have to
take team performance inconsideration where the one seed
we're fighting for the one seedthat, you know, that makes no
sense either, especially forJesse Bates that he put in above
him as the alternate, I, youknow, by and large, it's a
(09:28):
popularity contest and I don'tknow about you.
I'm less concerned about thispobo.
I am concerned, as we were forAmun Ra last year, what this
means for his All Pro status.
Because he deserves that firstteam All Pro.
And I hope that this doesn'tdeter in any way, or this
conversation doesn't, you know,lead in some sort of way where
(09:49):
he doesn't get that.
Jason Harwood (09:51):
yeah, I agree.
Some of the stats that I thinkalso are pretty eye popping are,
we talked about this on the pod,I think with Morgan this last
week, you the league with nineinterceptions, but the QB passer
rating against him is 25.
4, which is the lowest in theleague.
And also the sixth lowest sinceI've been keeping the sat in
(10:13):
2016.
So this is all time level of,production that we're getting
Kirby.
mentioned as 25.
4 passer rating.
If you look at Xavier McKinney,he's at 57.
9.
So you could double Kirby's.
Passer rating against it.
He'd still be lower than XavierMcKinney.
Kirby's only allowed 133 yardspassing.
Whereas Xavier McKinney is up to261 yards.
(10:37):
I will say the advantage XavierMcKinney has is that he does
have a sack and he has four QBpressures.
Generally the lines do not sendJoseph on that.
Whether that's a scheme thing,or, I don't know.
Kirby's that effective in thatarea.
So Xavier McKinney does havethat, but even that it's one
sack.
Both of them are playing.
Pretty far from the line ofscrimmage.
(10:58):
So it's hard for them to get atackle for loss.
But yeah, they, Kirby's got themalmost on all levels.
And I think you're right.
It's all down to a perceptionthing, which is really
unfortunate for Kirby.
Now, some of these things I willmention that things like purple
nods and stuff like that almostare like a year behind sometimes
(11:19):
Kirby's name is out there.
So he's got to give the benefitof the doubt next year when the
players vote and the coachesvote.
That's another thing I don'treally like about when we talked
about the players and coachesvote.
If you're someone in the AFC andyou never saw Kirby play, you
don't know.
You're not like watching tape ofplayers that you don't play
against.
Yes, they, players and coachesshould have a vote, but they're
(11:40):
limited on what they're going tosee or what they have access to.
Um, so I, that's not the end allbe all either players and
coaches voting either.
Jacob (11:49):
Right.
Absolutely.
Just because you had mentionedit, I just wanted to look and
see.
And we, we've sent Kirby.
Kirby's, uh, rushed three timesthis year.
Three snaps, Kirby's rushed.
And that's it.
It just doesn't happen veryoften.
Jason Harwood (12:02):
No, and what was funny is that his one
interception that he did returnfor a touchdown, the Packers was
very close to the line and Ikind of was rushing and then
step back and just got in thepassing lane.
So, know, he can play out closeto the line of scrimmage and
that was obviously a gamechanging play.
One thing that I will say isthat a lot of Kirby's
(12:23):
interceptions.
I looked at all his Xaviers andI've seen all of Kirby's.
Kirby's, there was a fairamount, especially at the
beginning of the season, in theend zone.
And those were game changingplays.
I can even, the first game ofthe year when he stole one from
Stafford, you know, that wasright before the half, he, he
picked that ball off.
That was huge in that game.
(12:44):
Obviously, returning one for atouchdown, huge in that game.
Xaviers did, has not had any inthe red zone, as far as I could,
remember, and certainly none inthe end zone.
So, I mean, Kirby's taken it offin, in key times.
Man,
Jacob (13:05):
didn't make the pro bowl.
We still think, I mean, he stillshould be at the front runner
for all pro.
They're still talking about himbeing an all pro and he still is
being thrown around as defensiveplayer of the year.
Right now the favorite fordefensive player of the year is
Patrick Sertan from the Broncos.
And the second favorite rightnow is TJ Watt.
Do you think there's anypossibility, um, that Kirby wins
(13:28):
it?
And then while we're talkingabout it too, I mean, do you
think that Patrick Surtain, uh,you know, obviously he's the
favorite, but do you think thathe's deserving of defensive
player of the year?
And is it because of the factthat there has not been like a
standout player?
Is it because it's wide open?
There's not anybody breaking anyrecords.
(13:49):
Do you think that's why Kirbyand Patrick Surtain are like in
the conversation?
TJ Watt is in the conversationbecause he's TJ Watt.
He's not performing at the levelthat he has.
Okay.
Okay.
(14:11):
Okay.
Jason Harwood (14:23):
wouldn't is if you weren't having quarterbacks,
just having more.
seasons.
And then you had a season likeSaquon where he's, you know,
close to breaking the record orsomething like that.
But this year we've had someawesome quarterback.
So one, a quarterback is goingto get it in defensive line.
It's who can rush thequarterback.
Who's going to affect gameplaythat, that way, usually a.
(14:45):
I'll play with a sack.
However, with them both beinglow and, that's why you have
Patrick Satane and Kirby inthere.
I don't think either one of themwin.
I'm biased because I want to sayKirby's going to do it, but I
just don't, he won't have thevotes votes to get there,
especially with him not makingthe pro ball.
What about you?
(15:05):
are you?
Jacob (15:06):
Well, I mean, it's, it's definitely just a popularity
contest.
T.
J.
Watts actually fourth in sacksright now.
Trey Hendrickson leads theleague in sacks and Trey
Hendrickson is nowhere to befound on there.
Jason Harwood (15:16):
Niles.
Yeah.
Yep.
Jacob (15:17):
Yep.
And mile.
And then daniel Hunter, is closefalling on behind, but yeah, it
is just one of those things.
Historically, a defensivelineman, defensive end.
It's Defensive tackle.
Aaron Donald obviously did itfor a little bit.
Then linebacker, I actually wentback to look just to see as far
as defensive backs for defensiveplayer of the year, Stefan
Gilmore, um, won in 2019 withthe Patriots.
(15:40):
Um, and he had hardly any stats.
Like there were no, that's thething about cornerbacks, right?
Is, you know, and Patrick Sertanthis year, I think he's got like
four interceptions.
Uh, it's just, you know, theimpact that he has on the game
because they're not throwing tothem.
Jason Harwood (15:53):
Yep.
Jacob (15:55):
So, and that's also a perception thing, you know,
they're not throwing at him, sothen the stats aren't there, the
catches aren't there as much,and then, But, uh, yeah, so
that's when Gilmore won last,but the safety that won most
recently was in 2010, it wasTroy Palomalu.
Troy Palomalu that year had 63tackles, 7 interceptions, and 1
(16:16):
sack.
And he was the defensive playerof the year.
But, you know, like I said,
Jason Harwood (16:22):
though.
Jacob (16:23):
right.
No, absolutely.
But it is a popularity thing.
Jason Harwood (16:26):
It is,
Jacob (16:27):
It's who has the most hype.
Jason Harwood (16:30):
it, it is, but I would say with Troy, if you
watched him play, is that heaffected a lot of plays, even if
he didn't make the tackle orwhatever, he, he could affect
the play.
So, I mean, that's really hardwhen you just look at those
stats.
I don't, who votes for theplayer of the year, is it media
or
Jacob (16:48):
It's associated press.
So I think that's the mediathing.
Jason Harwood (16:51):
Right.
You have some media members thatdo their research and do their,
our journalists and, and seeeverything.
And then you have other peoplethat, yeah, it's a popularity
contest or, now it's a socialmedia contest.
Um,
Jacob (17:04):
The thing about Palomalo, which maybe that's a good thing
for Kirby Joseph going forwardtoo, is that Palomalo's best
years were probably leading upto that.
I mean, he was alreadyestablished.
He was, you know, when you'retalking about all over the field
and everything, that's alreadythe type of player that he was.
And then this particular year,when he won defensive player of
the year, it wasn't really Youknow, off the rails, crazy.
(17:25):
You know, it was more so likethere's nobody else.
And then you've got TroyPalomaro.
He's the name he's still playingat a high level.
It's, you know, that's why Isaid before, it just comes down
to a lot of it is just apopularity contest and less
about what you put on the field.
Jason Harwood (17:40):
I don't know why that I think you know, that's
what I said before about theproblems being like a year
behind, it takes a little bit toget, The benefit of the doubt.
And so like, okay, he's havinga, you know, he's having a Kirby
Joseph year.
So yeah, we're going to put himin the pro bowl.
He deserves it, whether it's hisbest year or not.
So I,
Jacob (17:56):
Like I'm in raw, hopefully.
I mean, you know,
Jason Harwood (17:59):
I'm hoping that Kirby gets at nine
interceptions.
Just this past week, the one wasa gift.
That was a bad throw by BrockPurdy, but the second one.
That was all Kirby reading theeyes and doing his thing and
anticipate it.
And that's what changed thisyear.
He's able to do that.
And both those interceptions, ifwe don't get those, lines don't
win that game.
(18:20):
I mean, line, they don't winthat game.
They don't get both thoseinterceptions.
Jacob (18:25):
yes, but I don't, you know, I don't think they take
that into consideration, thegrand scheme of things, the
level of,
Jason Harwood (18:32):
no, I'm just saying
Jacob (18:33):
they just look at the number.
Jason Harwood (18:34):
Yeah, no, I
Jacob (18:35):
Obviously, it's a huge.
Jason Harwood (18:37):
Yeah, it's it's gigantic So but anything else
you want to add to the kirbyargument?
Jacob (18:44):
No, I think I've, I rest my case.
Jason Harwood (18:47):
Yeah, I know I hope that he gets in well,
hopefully he doesn't even haveto play because we're Preparing
for the Superbowl, right?
But
Jacob (18:54):
Right,
Jason Harwood (18:55):
hope for all pro he gets, he gets his nod.
He deserves it.
He's having an amazing year and,uh, he's going to, regardless,
he's going to earn a bigcontract.
Hopefully it's with the lions.
Jacob (19:06):
right.
Hey, he said before the season,he said, I want to lead the
league in interceptions.
And you know, when we hear that,we're like, you know, awesome,
which we already knew, like,awesome.
He's a hard worker.
You know, he's setting goals.
He's got high hopes for theteam.
And then to see it, you know,come to fruition and to see him
actually leading the league ininterceptions and still playing
high, you know, it's justawesome.
Jason Harwood (19:28):
I agree.
Yeah.
When he said that, and I sawthose in the book, I was like,
Oh, that'd be pretty cool if hegot, if he could get like four
or five or something like that.
And I didn't think that he wouldlead the league.
It's not that I don't thinkKirby, it's hard to get
interceptions and some of themare luck.
Dude.
You can look into some of that.
But he's had his fair share of,he used his skill and, and got a
(19:51):
vast majority of thoseinterceptions where, he read the
play.
Right.
Jacob (19:55):
Right.
Jason Harwood (19:56):
All right, Jacob, I think we can take off here.
It's, uh, you can like, andsubscribe.
If you like what you heard, sendus in the comments.
Is there something we'remissing?
Is there someone else that,deserves to be up there that we
should have talked about who isyour defensive player of the
year?
So Jacob, I'm Jason.
Let's go lions.
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