December 31, 2024 • 31 mins
Award-winning author and storyteller Joe Lansdale -- screenwriter (Bubba Ho-Tep) and novelist (Hap and Leonard series), discusses his East Texas roots and eclectic influences in our latest episode. Joe discuss growing up, and his life and literary influences. This episode offers a rich tapestry of narratives that are both personal and universal. Tune in to hear Joe reflect the art of storytelling, and how his Texas roots have helped shape Joe's distinctive voice in the literary world.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbe and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Welcome to another edition of Talking Texas History
.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSoske.
Gene, we have a key guest today.
You know I was thinking beforewe started this that who is the
most famous person we've everinterviewed before.
It's not either one of us, forsure.
On here and now I think we'regoing to call my fellow
Nacogdoches resident, Joe, andI's fellow Nacogdoches resident,
(01:05):
Brad Mullen, telling Brad,you're no longer the most famous
person that's been on TalkingTexas History, Because today we
have noted author, screenplayartist and martial arts
instructor, Joe Lansdale, wholives here in Nacogdoches.
Joe, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I am doing good.
I hope you guys are doing welltoo.
We're fine.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, Joe, you are a real polymath, and by that I
don't mean that you can doalgebra in your head.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
No I cannot.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean that you really do have a tremendous
range of traits that you can doand talents that you do.
And I've actually heard of yourself-defense school that you
started a couple of years ago,but I didn't put it together
until Scott said you know whydon't we talk to Joe Lonsdale?
(01:55):
Because I'm going to tell youthis, I've known about you for
about 25 years now.
When I met my wife when we wewere dating.
One of the things she said isyou have to watch this movie.
She goes it's the best, it's myfavorite movie in the whole
wide world.
And I said what is it?
(02:16):
She goes it's called bubbahotep.
And I was like, well, what inthe world is that about?
And she said, well, you got towatch it.
And so we did.
And I'm going to say she's verydisappointed.
She couldn't be with us thismorning, but she's going to
listen to this as soon as wefinish recording.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Good good Well, apparently.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I think that's a good measurement for your future.
Success as a marriage is ifthey like Bubba Hotep.
I think you're right.
It seems to have worked so far,so let's get a.
Tell everybody else a littlebit about you and where you're
from, where you grew up andthings like that.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well, you know, I'm an East Texan.
I was born in Gladewater, texas, and then I moved to Mount
Enterprise, for I guess I wasprobably about five when we
moved there and left when I wasaround 11, close to 12, moved
back to Gladewater and Igraduated at Gladewater.
I took a year at Tyler JuniorCollege where I caused a big
(03:15):
problem with the hair caseLansdale et al versus TJC.
And then I went to Universityof Texas for about a semester
and a half and dropped out andafter that I took a few courses.
I moved to Berkeley for alittle while but I took a few
courses in SFA when I moved backat SFA, when I moved back and I
never finished the degree but Iwas writing all during this
(03:37):
time and one day I looked up andsaid you know, I don't want to
finish the degree.
I'm, I'm doing it now.
You know I don't need to finishit.
You know I kind of regret thatI didn't.
I would like to have had thedegree because I love university
, love college, I love the wholeeducational thing.
When I was at TJC last nightjust walking through the halls
(03:57):
is, you know, it's nice, I likeit.
And same way when I was at SFAand later taught writing classes
there.
But you know I was alreadydoing it, so I said I'm going to
go for it.
So that's kind of a nutshellbackground.
I mean I can certainly tell youmore if you need more.
But that gives you the kind ofborn here.
(04:18):
Here I am.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
That's an East Texas, an East Texas son, for sure.
Well, this is kind of relatedto that.
An East Texas, an East Texasson, for sure, well, this is
kind of related to that.
So I guess you know I've talked, gene and I, we are authors.
I don't think I want to callourselves writers because I
don't know how creative we arein things we write, being too
academic.
But I've talked to some andthere's always I always say ask
(04:41):
them did you always want to be awriter, or is this something
that's kind of developed becauseit was what your interest?
And then also, what are yourbiggest influence?
Who are your biggest influenceson how you write and what you
write?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, you know, I think I can.
I don't know what I wasthinking about in the womb, but
by the time I discovered comicbooks and discovered pencils, I
wanted to write and draw and Iwanted to write comic books.
Now I wasn't thinking this ismy career.
I was four years old.
But what I was thinking is Iwant to tell stories and
something connected with me, myfather.
(05:15):
We were a pretty poor bunch andmy father was a great
storyteller, and so I had thatgoing too.
And I remember when I was a kidwe lived in a house that faced
a drive in, looked over a honkytonk.
We were on a hill, looked overa honky tonk at a drive in
theater, and I remember her wesat in chairs looking out the
window and and her telling mewhat all the cartoon characters
(05:38):
were saying.
And then, years later, when Isaw those cartoons.
I said my mom was a dad burnliar.
That's kind of thatstorytelling tradition I had.
You know, my grandmother wasborn in the 1880s and as a child
she saw one of Buffalo billswhile West show, wow.
And yeah, she came to Texas ata covered wagon, all that stuff.
(06:00):
So she told me a lot of greatstories.
And then, you know, karen'sgrandfather came to Texas in the
covered wagon thing too.
He died when they were 100years old, and my grandmother
too.
She lived nearly to 100.
And both of them had thoseexperiences which we shared, and
her grandfather had been aPinkerton.
(06:22):
So, and possibly in Chicago, hewas probably a Pinkerton about
the same time Hammett was, but Idon't think they crossed paths
or were in the same place, butthey were both doing Pinkerton
work, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well, what about those?
I mean, if somebody said oh,I'm sorry, let me finish your
question.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I realize I just those are the things that got me
going.
But the influences were reallycomic books first.
Comic books are the mostimportant thing that I ever
discovered because they made mewant to tell stories.
They also blended concepts andideas.
They might have a sciencefictional Western blend or a
mystery science fiction blend orall these things, and so I
(07:02):
think that that locked in.
And I remember Roy Rogers theywould be riding the horse and
there'd be airplanes and therewould be stop and use the
telephone and Gene Autry, royRogers or Gene Autry.
So those were alreadymultiverse stories, you know,
because they in some ways werealmost contemporary but not
quite, and a lot of people don'trealize that a lot of those
(07:25):
things like the phone and allthat, those actually were before
the 20th century and into theearly 20th century, which is
kind of when those stories seemto take place.
So those were influences.
And when I was a kid I used towatch the old movies that they
were putting on and HopalongCassidy, and then later there
was a TV show Hopalong Cassidy,lone Ranger, stuff that all the
(07:48):
kids Tarzan primarily.
But then I discovered classicillustrated comics and I started
going.
Well, wait a minute, what?
What's the tale of two cities?
And so I would go to thebookmobile, which is what we had
in Mount Enterprise, and Iwould get a tale of two cities
if it were there and whateverwas there.
And my mom gave me a big volumeof edgar allen pole.
(08:08):
And I mean, I was a young child, I mean I will say this, I was
a precocious little guy, so Iwas reading all of that.
Then I discovered edgar riceburroughs and I not only wanted
to be a writer, I had to be oneafter that, because that's
catnip for 11 or 12 in that era,I guess.
So yeah, that's right and he'sstill my sentimental favorite
(08:29):
writer.
Is that right?
Yeah, I guess probably Twain orHarper Lee's novel To Kill a
Mockingbird is my favorite novel, favorite film.
But she only wrote one book andone later.
It was kind of the first bookdone.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, that's the whole thing.
When they found that a book,you know what, after she died,
and yeah, safety deposit, well,what it was, it was not a new
book.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
It was the first draft kind of of.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Kind of of uh, to kill a mockingbird and uh,
atticus is not a perfect guy inthat it's a much more realistic
now I started to say that wouldbe something that would I would,
I think would be, you know,because Atticus is kind of this
almost Christ-like figure inthat.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And I think she made the right choice, even though,
you know, I think she meant tomake him a kind of a superhero
not quite that, but somethinglike that because he was wise
and he was Solomon in that book,but in the other one he was
more like David.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
He was flawed.
David's always the moreinteresting story.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Not in this case.
Not in this case, but it is.
It is an interesting book.
I think it's kind of underratedbut I don't think it's a great
piece compared to her other book, but anyway.
And Richard Matheson, who wroteI am legend and many of them
highlight zone episodes, tons ofshort stories, novels.
And then there was CharlesBeaumont, ray Bradbury, who I
and I knew Madison and Bradburya little bit, so that was great.
(09:52):
I got to spend some time withthem and knew them.
And then I knew Robert Block,who wrote Psycho and I did.
But all these people I didn'tknow then and they were
influenced me.
Frederick Brown, flanneryO'Connor is my favorite short
story writer.
And then Hemingway I love theway he could, you know, be
poetic and muscular at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, that's.
That's a good description.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
The Great Gatsby is one of my favorite books, but I
mean, this list could go on andon and on, but what happened is
they all went into a blender.
I didn't want to mix them, Iwanted to blend them, which is a
different concept, I think.
So anyway, those are among manyof the.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Those are some of the most disparate influences.
I've ever heard somebody sayever.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
A blender is exactly right.
You know, when I was a kid, Ifound in the closet these stacks
of old.
I think they were lifemagazines and they were.
They weren't ancient but theywere old.
You know, they were therebefore I was born, I think, or
when I was a baby one of the twoand I found the old man in the
sea and one of the I think itwas a life magazine, almost
(10:56):
certain.
I read it when I was a kid andI didn't like it because he
didn't get the fish.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
When you're a kid you don't quite understand, no, but
when I?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
reread it.
I liked it a lot.
It's not my favorite Hemingwayby any means, but his short
stories are absolutely masterful.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Hemingway.
He's one of those.
Everybody and I like Hemingway,but I find it so terse
sometimes that it's hard to read.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I kind of like that.
As a writer myself, I'm kind ofa blend between that's not
necessarily Hemingway, but thatstyle and Fitzgerald you know.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
But I think Hemingway was talking about and he's told
this interviewer that when hewas writing a farewell to arms
the last page, you know where heand Frederick and I forget the
girl's name were rolling acrossLake Como and leaving.
He wrote, he, he wrote drafts,he wrote 87 drafts of that last
(12:04):
drafts in it.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
They published that Is that right?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And he said yeah, the last one he's finally decided.
Well, it's adequate, and it's,of course, one of the most
beautifully written pieces thatyou've ever read.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
She's, she's in the room and he walks out of the
room and you know, because it'sover, it's not her, it's, you
know.
But the and the description isall through that novel are
fantastic and I always liked.
I liked a couple, I liked acouple of the novels that were
posthumous that a lot of peopledon't like, but I Islands in the
Stream is my favorite Hemingway.
(12:37):
Oh, yeah, it doesn't holdtogether altogether, but the
individual novellas I guess youwould call them yeah, were
chapters novellas, but they werefantastic.
And, uh, I, I like garden ofeden because it was so unique.
I've not even read that.
Yeah, it's unique, I mean inthat he's kind of a
cross-dresser character, thecharacter that in the book, and
(12:58):
at the same time he's writingthis uh story about africa,
which is just, you know,fascinating.
And the thing is I'm notinterested in bullfighting, I'm
not a big game hunter or a biggame fisher, but when I read
this stuff I say this is thereal deal.
You know, this is the stuff.
When he got a little bit later,some of the books like Across
the River Into the Trees, hekind of got across the river
(13:21):
into the trees because, you know, there's not so much book there
as it is a travel log throughItaly with a guy lusting after a
young, younger woman.
So you know, I still I thinkhe's, he's one of those guys
people like to crap on and he'sgot a lot to be crapped on
because he could be a real jerkyou know, that's what I hear.
(13:43):
Yeah, but I and another biginfluence on me is Raymond
Chandler and James Kane.
I love those guys and andthey're, they've been, a big
influence.
But if I get to talking aboutinfluences Carson McCuller, you
know it goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
How about Robert Howard?
Oh, and.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Robert E Howard.
Yeah, Robert E Howard had abeing a Texan too.
I made a connection.
The first book I read of himwas called Wolf's Head and it
had an introduction about himbeing a writer, and it nailed
everything that I thought about.
And the main thing he said is Idon't have some son of a bitch
standing over me telling me whatto do, or worse to that effect,
(14:19):
you know.
And I thought, yeah, that'swhat I want, Because I didn't
have a good job.
I did all these jobs where youknow I worked in the Rosefields.
I actually dug ditches.
My mother used to say if youdon't get a college education,
you're going to end up diggingditches.
First job digging ditches andfor plumbing and stuff like that
.
So you know, I I did all thoseblue collar jobs and I wanted to
(14:40):
have a freedom from that.
And eventually, you know, bythe time of 1981, I went
full-time.
I was 29 and that's all I'vedone ever since.
I'd already sold before thatbut couldn't go full-time to
then?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
how about william owens?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I, I, he, I read one book by him.
It was uh, the 30s right or the, was it about uh, this, this
stubborn soil yeah, that's it.
That's the only one I've read.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
If he did, I'm unaware of it.
He wrote a book on the Titanictoo, I believe.
But you know, the thing abouthim is, and the reason I ask
this, is because in that book,which I mean golly that that
that book really really struckme and I mean I found myself.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
It did me too.
I mean, I found myself it didme too.
I mean I just recalled it nowthat you've talked about it.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, but he used East Texas as a setting and it
was almost a character in thebook.
So, let me ask you a questionabout your writing.
You use East Texas too.
What does that mean for you andwhy do you use it?
Is it just a good setting or isit something beyond that?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Well, I'm going to jump back before I answer that.
I'm going to also mentionSteinbeck, who I like a lot.
Okay, yeah, east Texas is acharacter, and I think the best
work that I enjoy is frequentlythe locale is a personality.
There are some kinds of booksyou can write, too, that have no
, not even the characters areimportant at all because the
book is a personality.
There are some kinds of booksyou can write, too, that have no
, not even the characters areimportant at all, because the
(16:08):
book is the character, the bookthe style, that's the character.
A lot of Ray Bradbury stuffdoesn't have real characters in
it, but it's a metaphor and it'sstylistic, but it always has
the places that he's lived orbeen and they stand out.
And I wanted to do that, Iwanted to be able to do that,
and when I read Twain or HarperLee, I thought I know those
(16:33):
places because they're verysimilar to me, especially when I
was growing up in the 50s and60s, very different than it is
now, considerably so, and Idon't just mean the technology,
I mean everything in general,and I think it's in many ways
for the better and other waysfor the worse.
I think that's true of everygeneration.
So when I was growing up, Ispent a lot of time in the woods
(16:54):
and it wasn't uncommon, youknow, you get on your bicycle in
the morning and you go play andyou come back in the evening I
hear my mom yelling my name, youknow.
And so I would come in and bedone, and then I would, uh, you
know, do whatever you know,homework I do not doing enough
of it and uh, I would uh, reador watch television, or, you
know, in the back, then youdidn't have television like you
(17:17):
do now.
You had three channels and whenI was a kid it wasn't even on
all day, it was on part of theday and it didn't go past 10 or
10, 30, you know, and then theystarted the night show and all
that.
So all of those things werefactors.
But at the same time I wasspending a lot of time.
Within the text East Texasgeography, I was on the lakes, I
was on the, in the riverbottoms, you know, I I fished,
(17:40):
and back then we used to huntsquirrels.
We ate them.
You know that it was importantto us to get to get squirrels
because, uh, we ate them.
You know that that was, it wasimportant to us to get to get
squirrels.
We you know my.
I remember I went squirrelhunting when I was pretty young
and I was kind of enjoyingkilling squirrels and my dad
said, hey, come here and we'reselling that log right there.
He said when you like, when youstart liking to see them fall,
you need to sit down and have aconversation with yourself oh,
(18:02):
wow this is for food, you knowokay, and I never did that again
the same.
He says it's not a sport becausethey're not shooting back
that's that.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, my dad tells the story of he grew up and they
grew up in west texas byabilene and they were
sharecroppers and they were poor.
But his dad lost a job at acotton gin one time and he said
they'd always gone hunting.
But he realized this time,going with his dad, it was
different because his dad wasbeing very diligent about what
he shot and how much he shot andthen he finally asked us it was
(18:32):
because this is what we weregoing to eat that night.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, and it was very different uh to go hunting in
that yeah, my father had beenborn of a sharecropper family
and so, uh, and you know, uh,they were dirt poor.
We were poor growing up, butnot like that.
And then the Great Depressioncame along and they were even
poorer, you know.
And but the 50s supposedly theboom time my dad had one period
(18:57):
where he was doing pretty goodwhen I was real small, but most
of the time it was hand to mouth, you know, and so we were.
We were poor, but we didn'tthink of ourselves that way.
Mouth, you know, and so we were.
We were poor, but we didn'tthink of ourselves that way.
We thought ourselves as broke.
Because that gives you theopportunity later that you're
going to succeed, you know, andhe never succeeded greatly, but
if you look at it from where hecame from, he was quite the
success.
He always put the roof over ourhead and food on the table and
(19:20):
he couldn't read or write Really.
Yeah, and my mother was a greatreader, you know.
She read everything and she wasvery encouraging for me and my
dad always encouraged me to be awriter.
He always encouraged me to getan education.
He knew how hard it had beenfor him and he wasn't that.
Don't get above your raisin.
You know they were buff, let'sget above your raisin, Except
(19:42):
for those things that they thinkare important.
My dad said I asked one thing ofyou and I said, what's that
your character?
And I'm like, okay, okay, I getit, that's right, you know.
And but his parents andeverybody, they'd all been
sharecroppers and he had donesharecropping and he'd had a
rough life and the geography Ilived in influenced me.
(20:04):
But the geography he told meabout that they lived in was
even harsher, because he wasborn in 1909.
He died in 1901, I think, andmy mother in 1914, I believe.
So they had stories whichpretty much covered a large part
of the century and mygrandmother told me ghost
stories and all that sort ofstuff.
(20:24):
And my grandmother told meghost stories and all that sort
of stuff.
But all of those things rangespecially true when you went
down into the woods and youheard the stories about the goat
man that was supposed to bedown there at the swinging
bridge, they call it, theswinging bridge.
It's still an urban legend, yeah, and we used to go down to it,
or the one that they said wasthe one.
I think there actually had beenmore, but there was one that
(20:45):
was noted as the swinging bridgeand it was just cables and I
think it still had boards thatyou could walk on them, but I
vaguely remember that.
But we would go down there tofish and hang out and there was
an old graveyard that was kindof grown up in the woods and I
remember going down there andthey had like a recording of a
dying rabbit, which is the mostawful damn thing you ever heard,
(21:08):
because they scream and I'dnever heard a rabbit scream, you
know.
And so they played thatrecording and we turn out all
the lights and you'd see allthese eyes gathering around,
just creepy as hell, you know,and it was, and then when they
would turn it off and gone.
You know whatever thosecreatures were, you know, uh,
and it was, uh, and then whenthey would turn it off, they're
gone.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You know whatever those creatures were, you know
they were when the lights cameon, they didn't want to be
around, but see that's all partof that environment, it's all
part of that attitude, it's allpart of that.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
this is mysterious, this is different, and I was on
the river all the time, you know, and you would lots of water,
moccasins and, uh, I never.
Actually, back then alligatorswere rare because they had
mostly been killed.
Yeah, yeah they didn't migrateyet.
Yeah, but you know, I rememberseeing one in the water and a
dead one in the back of a pickup.
Well then, we're blue collarworkers all around me and that's
(22:00):
also part of your environment.
When you read Robert E Howard,all of his people really are
people like iron mill workers.
And even if they're Conanbecause there's those guys,
because no matter what you writeabout, you're always writing
about now in a way.
You're always writing aboutyour background in a way.
And when I first startedwriting and I would send these
(22:21):
stories to New York or you know,for trying to be published, I
think I started out trying towrite stories about New York and
Los Angeles, which were notvery successful, because I think
the biggest town I'd been to bythat time was Tyler and it was
like 30,000 then.
So they write back now and theyweren't.
So I started writing about myown place and I sent it in and
they said I'll never forget this.
(22:43):
I got a reject said why don'tyou write about someplace real?
really oh he did that really,really, uh, aggravated me and I
started writing.
Even I doubled down on it andused to.
If I went to new york when Iwas in my early 30s I think
that's the first time I'dstarted going out of the state
(23:03):
in any big way uh, they wouldalways think I was stupid
because I had an accent.
Yeah, oh yeah, and I use thatagainst them.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I do too.
I do the same thing.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Yeah, everything.
Oh, this old boy.
He don't know what he's doing,but I I may not have been the
brightest person in the world,but I, you know I wasn't an
idiot and but they assumed youwere because you have an accent,
as if that you know.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, we know that that kind of brings up what I'm
thinking of.
I said you know you're most howmany I'm trying.
I'm going to say it wrong.
Are there 12 Happen Leonardbooks?
Speaker 3 (23:38):
There are 14, with one coming out.
Oh, one's coming out next time.
And I'm writing a 15th.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Oh, wow.
Well, they're your mostenduring characters.
Of course, hap and Leonard livein Laborde, texas, which is
obviously East Texas, but we'vebeen talking about it.
So tell me, where would we goto see Laborde?
What is it?
What is it in our area?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
It's borrowed because it's partly Nacogdoches and
it's partly Tilo.
If you put those two togetheryou've got most of it.
But that doesn't mean Iwouldn't borrow here or there.
I'm like a magpie I'll borrowwhatever.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
That's interesting, and those are the characters
Happen Leonard, I meanthemselves.
I always tell people thatLansdale has created two of the
most unique literary charactersI've ever encountered, because
there's nothing out there that Iknow of that are like them and
they're just.
I mean, think about it, it'syou got a guy that is on the
(24:41):
surface.
I always say, you first, youknow, when you, when you first
encounter a pap, oh, this isyour typical East Texas white
dude, you know, and he looksthat way and sounds that way if
you're talking about him on film.
But then you find out he's muchdifferent.
He's not the same guy.
He protested against theVietnam War.
(25:01):
He even went to prison justbecause he didn't want to go
fight in the war.
And then he's friends with withwith Leonard, who is an
African-American guy, who's gaybut then went and fought in
Vietnam.
Yes, oh yeah.
Well, that's the thing too.
These two guys.
They beat the hell out ofeverybody all the time when they
encounter, which is fine andgreat.
(25:23):
So how did you come up withthese guys?
For one thing, did you basethem on something?
And I have to ask you this Isthere anything autobiographical
there about those?
There's a lot of it'sautobiographical.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
A lot of my work is autobiographical and not
necessarily always what happenedto me, what happened people
around me autobiographical inthat sense.
But also the hap is definitelyme at that era, you know, and I
was a vietnam war resistor and Iwas.
They were sending me to prisonand I I didn't, whatever reason.
They gave me a one Y and sentme home.
It's a long story, but I meanthey had me come and I was the
(25:57):
only person that refused to join, and so they sent me to a table
and they said well, are you aconscientious objector?
I said no, I don't believe inthis war.
But a conscientious objector, Isaid would you?
They said would you defendyourself?
I said yeah.
They said would you have foughtin World War II?
I said yeah, but this one, no.
And I think you know, all theseyears later, 54,000 soldiers
(26:20):
dead.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
For what reason?
Speaker 3 (26:23):
And now it's one of our biggest trade partners and
people go there for vacations.
So you know, if they werereally looking, then you could
see that this, this, this wasn'tgoing anywhere.
And I told him all that.
And my brother now he was acaptain, he was in Vietnam, I
think three times, and he's 17years older than me and or was
he died about two weeks ago.
(26:43):
Three weeks ago, oh reallySorry to hear that.
Oh, thank you, but he and I haddifferent views on where we
close and we got along fine, butwe had very different views.
And so they sent me in to seethe psychiatrist because they
didn't know what to do with me.
They sent me home first.
They go home, get prepared andcome back.
Getting prepared for me isprobably folding two pairs of
(27:04):
underwear, it's about all.
And so then I went back, gotthe bus back.
I will tell you this, thoughthey did give you a box lunch
coming and going.
Oh well, there you go.
So both of my trips.
And then they sent me in to seethe psychiatrist.
After they talked to me, Istill wasn't going to do it and
they said well, you can teachmartial arts.
And I said I would love toteach martial arts.
(27:25):
But I said I'm against this warand it would critical for me to
do that.
And they said, well, we could.
You're, you're officer material.
Yeah, we can turn you.
I said, first of all, I don'tbelieve you, and then, second of
all, even if I believed you,it's still the same thing, you
know.
And so I?
They said, well, you knowwhat's going to happen.
I said prison 18 months.
And they said, right, I said Iknow.
And then that's when they sentme in to see the psychiatrist
(27:56):
and I was in there 15 minutes.
He gave me a, one wine.
They sent me home.
I remember being in just kindof a cloud all the way home,
going, wow, what happened.
So, unlike that, I didn't.
I didn't end up having to go toprison, but I knew a few people
that did and so, um, I'm surethat influenced it and Leonard
was.
I knew a few gay martialartists that nobody else knew
was gay and they were just tough, tough people and I thought,
wow, you know this is not,doesn't fit the stereotype?
(28:17):
It sure doesn't, because it'sjust like everybody else you'd
be.
You know, heterosexual,homosexual people are varied.
You have some people that seemobviously one way or the other,
and then others who don't, andyou, you know, you can't make
that judgment, and so to me Ididn't even intend to put him in
there.
I was writing the story SavageSeason, and here's Hap out, you
know, shooting skeet with thisLeonard, and then Trudy shows up
(28:40):
and then later Leonard comesback and I go who is this guy?
Why am I writing about this?
And I had seen and this is rareback then Now it's not, but
back then I saw a black personon TV that was a Republican and
that was like seeing a dodo bird, what.
But of course now things havechanged, but back then that was
very, very rare, and so thatthat went into it, and I was
(29:04):
working in the Rose Fields atthat.
Well, I had worked in the RoseFields.
I wasn't that time.
I'd worked in the Rose Fieldsand I had them working in the
Rose Fields.
I wasn't that time.
I'd worked in the Rose Fieldsand I had them working in the
Rose Fields.
I had worked in aluminum chairfactories and and I had worked
in mobile home factories.
I was a janitor at SFA for sixyears maybe, and then one at
medical.
I was a janitor at medicalcenter and then the high school,
(29:27):
and then that's yeah, bobLaborde whereorde was thus the
town.
Laborde was my boss and afriend of mine.
He died, I think, probably inhis forties I can't remember now
but he may be a little bitolder than that but he was a
young man and he, he ran a frameshop downtown at some point.
He did a variety of things.
(29:48):
The frame shop is sort of theframe shop in Colden July and I
turned the main character into aframer.
But OK, so you see, you, do you?
And it's more complicated thanthat.
I mean, if you really stop andthink, when I wrote the Bottoms,
which is my most, I guess,famous book, that was stories
based on my mom and dad told meand my own experiences, even in
(30:12):
my time, which were not thatvaried from the 30s a little bit
more money, but all the racism,that was there, the true racism
.
It's bad now in some ways, butboy, back back then my God just
awful, and so I use a lot ofthat and I've used it in other
books.
So I use a lot of that and I'veused it in other books.
But I use the 30s because I wasfascinated with the Great
(30:33):
Depression and I was fascinatedwith the river bottoms because I
grew up in them and I wasfascinated with all those old
stories.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So John, I'll say that this has been such a great
conversation.
We're going to do somethingthat we hardly ever have done.
This is going to be a two partis what this is going to be.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, we're going to have part one.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
No, you didn't.
No, we wanted to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, let's go ahead and stop it right here, and then
we'll pick back up where wecame at.
So thanks a lot, everybody, forlistening, and we'll see you at
part two coming up in just acouple of weeks.
Bye-bye you.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbe and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Welcome to another edition of Talking Texas History
.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSoske.
Gene, we have a key guest today.
You know I was thinking beforewe started this that who is the
most famous person we've everinterviewed before.
It's not either one of us, forsure.
On here and now I think we'regoing to call my fellow
Nacogdoches resident, Joe, andI's fellow Nacogdoches resident,
(01:05):
Brad Mullen, telling Brad,you're no longer the most famous
person that's been on TalkingTexas History, Because today we
have noted author, screenplayartist and martial arts
instructor, Joe Lansdale, wholives here in Nacogdoches.
Joe, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I am doing good.
I hope you guys are doing welltoo.
We're fine.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, Joe, you are a real polymath, and by that I
don't mean that you can doalgebra in your head.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
No I cannot.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean that you really do have a tremendous
range of traits that you can doand talents that you do.
And I've actually heard of yourself-defense school that you
started a couple of years ago,but I didn't put it together
until Scott said you know whydon't we talk to Joe Lonsdale?
(01:55):
Because I'm going to tell youthis, I've known about you for
about 25 years now.
When I met my wife when we wewere dating.
One of the things she said isyou have to watch this movie.
She goes it's the best, it's myfavorite movie in the whole
wide world.
And I said what is it?
(02:16):
She goes it's called bubbahotep.
And I was like, well, what inthe world is that about?
And she said, well, you got towatch it.
And so we did.
And I'm going to say she's verydisappointed.
She couldn't be with us thismorning, but she's going to
listen to this as soon as wefinish recording.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Good good Well, apparently.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I think that's a good measurement for your future.
Success as a marriage is ifthey like Bubba Hotep.
I think you're right.
It seems to have worked so far,so let's get a.
Tell everybody else a littlebit about you and where you're
from, where you grew up andthings like that.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well, you know, I'm an East Texan.
I was born in Gladewater, texas, and then I moved to Mount
Enterprise, for I guess I wasprobably about five when we
moved there and left when I wasaround 11, close to 12, moved
back to Gladewater and Igraduated at Gladewater.
I took a year at Tyler JuniorCollege where I caused a big
(03:15):
problem with the hair caseLansdale et al versus TJC.
And then I went to Universityof Texas for about a semester
and a half and dropped out andafter that I took a few courses.
I moved to Berkeley for alittle while but I took a few
courses in SFA when I moved backat SFA, when I moved back and I
never finished the degree but Iwas writing all during this
(03:37):
time and one day I looked up andsaid you know, I don't want to
finish the degree.
I'm, I'm doing it now.
You know I don't need to finishit.
You know I kind of regret thatI didn't.
I would like to have had thedegree because I love university
, love college, I love the wholeeducational thing.
When I was at TJC last nightjust walking through the halls
(03:57):
is, you know, it's nice, I likeit.
And same way when I was at SFAand later taught writing classes
there.
But you know I was alreadydoing it, so I said I'm going to
go for it.
So that's kind of a nutshellbackground.
I mean I can certainly tell youmore if you need more.
But that gives you the kind ofborn here.
(04:18):
Here I am.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
That's an East Texas, an East Texas son, for sure.
Well, this is kind of relatedto that.
An East Texas, an East Texasson, for sure, well, this is
kind of related to that.
So I guess you know I've talked, gene and I, we are authors.
I don't think I want to callourselves writers because I
don't know how creative we arein things we write, being too
academic.
But I've talked to some andthere's always I always say ask
(04:41):
them did you always want to be awriter, or is this something
that's kind of developed becauseit was what your interest?
And then also, what are yourbiggest influence?
Who are your biggest influenceson how you write and what you
write?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, you know, I think I can.
I don't know what I wasthinking about in the womb, but
by the time I discovered comicbooks and discovered pencils, I
wanted to write and draw and Iwanted to write comic books.
Now I wasn't thinking this ismy career.
I was four years old.
But what I was thinking is Iwant to tell stories and
something connected with me, myfather.
(05:15):
We were a pretty poor bunch andmy father was a great
storyteller, and so I had thatgoing too.
And I remember when I was a kidwe lived in a house that faced
a drive in, looked over a honkytonk.
We were on a hill, looked overa honky tonk at a drive in
theater, and I remember her wesat in chairs looking out the
window and and her telling mewhat all the cartoon characters
(05:38):
were saying.
And then, years later, when Isaw those cartoons.
I said my mom was a dad burnliar.
That's kind of thatstorytelling tradition I had.
You know, my grandmother wasborn in the 1880s and as a child
she saw one of Buffalo billswhile West show, wow.
And yeah, she came to Texas ata covered wagon, all that stuff.
(06:00):
So she told me a lot of greatstories.
And then, you know, karen'sgrandfather came to Texas in the
covered wagon thing too.
He died when they were 100years old, and my grandmother
too.
She lived nearly to 100.
And both of them had thoseexperiences which we shared, and
her grandfather had been aPinkerton.
(06:22):
So, and possibly in Chicago, hewas probably a Pinkerton about
the same time Hammett was, but Idon't think they crossed paths
or were in the same place, butthey were both doing Pinkerton
work, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well, what about those?
I mean, if somebody said oh,I'm sorry, let me finish your
question.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I realize I just those are the things that got me
going.
But the influences were reallycomic books first.
Comic books are the mostimportant thing that I ever
discovered because they made mewant to tell stories.
They also blended concepts andideas.
They might have a sciencefictional Western blend or a
mystery science fiction blend orall these things, and so I
(07:02):
think that that locked in.
And I remember Roy Rogers theywould be riding the horse and
there'd be airplanes and therewould be stop and use the
telephone and Gene Autry, royRogers or Gene Autry.
So those were alreadymultiverse stories, you know,
because they in some ways werealmost contemporary but not
quite, and a lot of people don'trealize that a lot of those
(07:25):
things like the phone and allthat, those actually were before
the 20th century and into theearly 20th century, which is
kind of when those stories seemto take place.
So those were influences.
And when I was a kid I used towatch the old movies that they
were putting on and HopalongCassidy, and then later there
was a TV show Hopalong Cassidy,lone Ranger, stuff that all the
(07:48):
kids Tarzan primarily.
But then I discovered classicillustrated comics and I started
going.
Well, wait a minute, what?
What's the tale of two cities?
And so I would go to thebookmobile, which is what we had
in Mount Enterprise, and Iwould get a tale of two cities
if it were there and whateverwas there.
And my mom gave me a big volumeof edgar allen pole.
(08:08):
And I mean, I was a young child, I mean I will say this, I was
a precocious little guy, so Iwas reading all of that.
Then I discovered edgar riceburroughs and I not only wanted
to be a writer, I had to be oneafter that, because that's
catnip for 11 or 12 in that era,I guess.
So yeah, that's right and he'sstill my sentimental favorite
(08:29):
writer.
Is that right?
Yeah, I guess probably Twain orHarper Lee's novel To Kill a
Mockingbird is my favorite novel, favorite film.
But she only wrote one book andone later.
It was kind of the first bookdone.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, that's the whole thing.
When they found that a book,you know what, after she died,
and yeah, safety deposit, well,what it was, it was not a new
book.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
It was the first draft kind of of.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Kind of of uh, to kill a mockingbird and uh,
atticus is not a perfect guy inthat it's a much more realistic
now I started to say that wouldbe something that would I would,
I think would be, you know,because Atticus is kind of this
almost Christ-like figure inthat.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And I think she made the right choice, even though,
you know, I think she meant tomake him a kind of a superhero
not quite that, but somethinglike that because he was wise
and he was Solomon in that book,but in the other one he was
more like David.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
He was flawed.
David's always the moreinteresting story.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Not in this case.
Not in this case, but it is.
It is an interesting book.
I think it's kind of underratedbut I don't think it's a great
piece compared to her other book, but anyway.
And Richard Matheson, who wroteI am legend and many of them
highlight zone episodes, tons ofshort stories, novels.
And then there was CharlesBeaumont, ray Bradbury, who I
and I knew Madison and Bradburya little bit, so that was great.
(09:52):
I got to spend some time withthem and knew them.
And then I knew Robert Block,who wrote Psycho and I did.
But all these people I didn'tknow then and they were
influenced me.
Frederick Brown, flanneryO'Connor is my favorite short
story writer.
And then Hemingway I love theway he could, you know, be
poetic and muscular at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, that's.
That's a good description.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
The Great Gatsby is one of my favorite books, but I
mean, this list could go on andon and on, but what happened is
they all went into a blender.
I didn't want to mix them, Iwanted to blend them, which is a
different concept, I think.
So anyway, those are among manyof the.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Those are some of the most disparate influences.
I've ever heard somebody sayever.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
A blender is exactly right.
You know, when I was a kid, Ifound in the closet these stacks
of old.
I think they were lifemagazines and they were.
They weren't ancient but theywere old.
You know, they were therebefore I was born, I think, or
when I was a baby one of the twoand I found the old man in the
sea and one of the I think itwas a life magazine, almost
(10:56):
certain.
I read it when I was a kid andI didn't like it because he
didn't get the fish.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
When you're a kid you don't quite understand, no, but
when I?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
reread it.
I liked it a lot.
It's not my favorite Hemingwayby any means, but his short
stories are absolutely masterful.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Hemingway.
He's one of those.
Everybody and I like Hemingway,but I find it so terse
sometimes that it's hard to read.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I kind of like that.
As a writer myself, I'm kind ofa blend between that's not
necessarily Hemingway, but thatstyle and Fitzgerald you know.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
But I think Hemingway was talking about and he's told
this interviewer that when hewas writing a farewell to arms
the last page, you know where heand Frederick and I forget the
girl's name were rolling acrossLake Como and leaving.
He wrote, he, he wrote drafts,he wrote 87 drafts of that last
(12:04):
drafts in it.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
They published that Is that right?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And he said yeah, the last one he's finally decided.
Well, it's adequate, and it's,of course, one of the most
beautifully written pieces thatyou've ever read.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
She's, she's in the room and he walks out of the
room and you know, because it'sover, it's not her, it's, you
know.
But the and the description isall through that novel are
fantastic and I always liked.
I liked a couple, I liked acouple of the novels that were
posthumous that a lot of peopledon't like, but I Islands in the
Stream is my favorite Hemingway.
(12:37):
Oh, yeah, it doesn't holdtogether altogether, but the
individual novellas I guess youwould call them yeah, were
chapters novellas, but they werefantastic.
And, uh, I, I like garden ofeden because it was so unique.
I've not even read that.
Yeah, it's unique, I mean inthat he's kind of a
cross-dresser character, thecharacter that in the book, and
(12:58):
at the same time he's writingthis uh story about africa,
which is just, you know,fascinating.
And the thing is I'm notinterested in bullfighting, I'm
not a big game hunter or a biggame fisher, but when I read
this stuff I say this is thereal deal.
You know, this is the stuff.
When he got a little bit later,some of the books like Across
the River Into the Trees, hekind of got across the river
(13:21):
into the trees because, you know, there's not so much book there
as it is a travel log throughItaly with a guy lusting after a
young, younger woman.
So you know, I still I thinkhe's, he's one of those guys
people like to crap on and he'sgot a lot to be crapped on
because he could be a real jerkyou know, that's what I hear.
(13:43):
Yeah, but I and another biginfluence on me is Raymond
Chandler and James Kane.
I love those guys and andthey're, they've been, a big
influence.
But if I get to talking aboutinfluences Carson McCuller, you
know it goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
How about Robert Howard?
Oh, and.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Robert E Howard.
Yeah, Robert E Howard had abeing a Texan too.
I made a connection.
The first book I read of himwas called Wolf's Head and it
had an introduction about himbeing a writer, and it nailed
everything that I thought about.
And the main thing he said is Idon't have some son of a bitch
standing over me telling me whatto do, or worse to that effect,
(14:19):
you know.
And I thought, yeah, that'swhat I want, Because I didn't
have a good job.
I did all these jobs where youknow I worked in the Rosefields.
I actually dug ditches.
My mother used to say if youdon't get a college education,
you're going to end up diggingditches.
First job digging ditches andfor plumbing and stuff like that
.
So you know, I I did all thoseblue collar jobs and I wanted to
(14:40):
have a freedom from that.
And eventually, you know, bythe time of 1981, I went
full-time.
I was 29 and that's all I'vedone ever since.
I'd already sold before thatbut couldn't go full-time to
then?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
how about william owens?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I, I, he, I read one book by him.
It was uh, the 30s right or the, was it about uh, this, this
stubborn soil yeah, that's it.
That's the only one I've read.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
If he did, I'm unaware of it.
He wrote a book on the Titanictoo, I believe.
But you know, the thing abouthim is, and the reason I ask
this, is because in that book,which I mean golly that that
that book really really struckme and I mean I found myself.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
It did me too.
I mean, I found myself it didme too.
I mean I just recalled it nowthat you've talked about it.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, but he used East Texas as a setting and it
was almost a character in thebook.
So, let me ask you a questionabout your writing.
You use East Texas too.
What does that mean for you andwhy do you use it?
Is it just a good setting or isit something beyond that?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Well, I'm going to jump back before I answer that.
I'm going to also mentionSteinbeck, who I like a lot.
Okay, yeah, east Texas is acharacter, and I think the best
work that I enjoy is frequentlythe locale is a personality.
There are some kinds of booksyou can write, too, that have no
, not even the characters areimportant at all because the
book is a personality.
There are some kinds of booksyou can write, too, that have no
, not even the characters areimportant at all, because the
(16:08):
book is the character, the bookthe style, that's the character.
A lot of Ray Bradbury stuffdoesn't have real characters in
it, but it's a metaphor and it'sstylistic, but it always has
the places that he's lived orbeen and they stand out.
And I wanted to do that, Iwanted to be able to do that,
and when I read Twain or HarperLee, I thought I know those
(16:33):
places because they're verysimilar to me, especially when I
was growing up in the 50s and60s, very different than it is
now, considerably so, and Idon't just mean the technology,
I mean everything in general,and I think it's in many ways
for the better and other waysfor the worse.
I think that's true of everygeneration.
So when I was growing up, Ispent a lot of time in the woods
(16:54):
and it wasn't uncommon, youknow, you get on your bicycle in
the morning and you go play andyou come back in the evening I
hear my mom yelling my name, youknow.
And so I would come in and bedone, and then I would, uh, you
know, do whatever you know,homework I do not doing enough
of it and uh, I would uh, reador watch television, or, you
know, in the back, then youdidn't have television like you
(17:17):
do now.
You had three channels and whenI was a kid it wasn't even on
all day, it was on part of theday and it didn't go past 10 or
10, 30, you know, and then theystarted the night show and all
that.
So all of those things werefactors.
But at the same time I wasspending a lot of time.
Within the text East Texasgeography, I was on the lakes, I
was on the, in the riverbottoms, you know, I I fished,
(17:40):
and back then we used to huntsquirrels.
We ate them.
You know that it was importantto us to get to get squirrels
because, uh, we ate them.
You know that that was, it wasimportant to us to get to get
squirrels.
We you know my.
I remember I went squirrelhunting when I was pretty young
and I was kind of enjoyingkilling squirrels and my dad
said, hey, come here and we'reselling that log right there.
He said when you like, when youstart liking to see them fall,
you need to sit down and have aconversation with yourself oh,
(18:02):
wow this is for food, you knowokay, and I never did that again
the same.
He says it's not a sport becausethey're not shooting back
that's that.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, my dad tells the story of he grew up and they
grew up in west texas byabilene and they were
sharecroppers and they were poor.
But his dad lost a job at acotton gin one time and he said
they'd always gone hunting.
But he realized this time,going with his dad, it was
different because his dad wasbeing very diligent about what
he shot and how much he shot andthen he finally asked us it was
(18:32):
because this is what we weregoing to eat that night.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, and it was very different uh to go hunting in
that yeah, my father had beenborn of a sharecropper family
and so, uh, and you know, uh,they were dirt poor.
We were poor growing up, butnot like that.
And then the Great Depressioncame along and they were even
poorer, you know.
And but the 50s supposedly theboom time my dad had one period
(18:57):
where he was doing pretty goodwhen I was real small, but most
of the time it was hand to mouth, you know, and so we were.
We were poor, but we didn'tthink of ourselves that way.
Mouth, you know, and so we were.
We were poor, but we didn'tthink of ourselves that way.
We thought ourselves as broke.
Because that gives you theopportunity later that you're
going to succeed, you know, andhe never succeeded greatly, but
if you look at it from where hecame from, he was quite the
success.
He always put the roof over ourhead and food on the table and
(19:20):
he couldn't read or write Really.
Yeah, and my mother was a greatreader, you know.
She read everything and she wasvery encouraging for me and my
dad always encouraged me to be awriter.
He always encouraged me to getan education.
He knew how hard it had beenfor him and he wasn't that.
Don't get above your raisin.
You know they were buff, let'sget above your raisin, Except
(19:42):
for those things that they thinkare important.
My dad said I asked one thing ofyou and I said, what's that
your character?
And I'm like, okay, okay, I getit, that's right, you know.
And but his parents andeverybody, they'd all been
sharecroppers and he had donesharecropping and he'd had a
rough life and the geography Ilived in influenced me.
(20:04):
But the geography he told meabout that they lived in was
even harsher, because he wasborn in 1909.
He died in 1901, I think, andmy mother in 1914, I believe.
So they had stories whichpretty much covered a large part
of the century and mygrandmother told me ghost
stories and all that sort ofstuff.
(20:24):
And my grandmother told meghost stories and all that sort
of stuff.
But all of those things rangespecially true when you went
down into the woods and youheard the stories about the goat
man that was supposed to bedown there at the swinging
bridge, they call it, theswinging bridge.
It's still an urban legend, yeah, and we used to go down to it,
or the one that they said wasthe one.
I think there actually had beenmore, but there was one that
(20:45):
was noted as the swinging bridgeand it was just cables and I
think it still had boards thatyou could walk on them, but I
vaguely remember that.
But we would go down there tofish and hang out and there was
an old graveyard that was kindof grown up in the woods and I
remember going down there andthey had like a recording of a
dying rabbit, which is the mostawful damn thing you ever heard,
(21:08):
because they scream and I'dnever heard a rabbit scream, you
know.
And so they played thatrecording and we turn out all
the lights and you'd see allthese eyes gathering around,
just creepy as hell, you know,and it was, and then when they
would turn it off and gone.
You know whatever thosecreatures were, you know, uh,
and it was, uh, and then whenthey would turn it off, they're
gone.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You know whatever those creatures were, you know
they were when the lights cameon, they didn't want to be
around, but see that's all partof that environment, it's all
part of that attitude, it's allpart of that.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
this is mysterious, this is different, and I was on
the river all the time, you know, and you would lots of water,
moccasins and, uh, I never.
Actually, back then alligatorswere rare because they had
mostly been killed.
Yeah, yeah they didn't migrateyet.
Yeah, but you know, I rememberseeing one in the water and a
dead one in the back of a pickup.
Well then, we're blue collarworkers all around me and that's
(22:00):
also part of your environment.
When you read Robert E Howard,all of his people really are
people like iron mill workers.
And even if they're Conanbecause there's those guys,
because no matter what you writeabout, you're always writing
about now in a way.
You're always writing aboutyour background in a way.
And when I first startedwriting and I would send these
(22:21):
stories to New York or you know,for trying to be published, I
think I started out trying towrite stories about New York and
Los Angeles, which were notvery successful, because I think
the biggest town I'd been to bythat time was Tyler and it was
like 30,000 then.
So they write back now and theyweren't.
So I started writing about myown place and I sent it in and
they said I'll never forget this.
(22:43):
I got a reject said why don'tyou write about someplace real?
really oh he did that really,really, uh, aggravated me and I
started writing.
Even I doubled down on it andused to.
If I went to new york when Iwas in my early 30s I think
that's the first time I'dstarted going out of the state
(23:03):
in any big way uh, they wouldalways think I was stupid
because I had an accent.
Yeah, oh yeah, and I use thatagainst them.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I do too.
I do the same thing.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Yeah, everything.
Oh, this old boy.
He don't know what he's doing,but I I may not have been the
brightest person in the world,but I, you know I wasn't an
idiot and but they assumed youwere because you have an accent,
as if that you know.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, we know that that kind of brings up what I'm
thinking of.
I said you know you're most howmany I'm trying.
I'm going to say it wrong.
Are there 12 Happen Leonardbooks?
Speaker 3 (23:38):
There are 14, with one coming out.
Oh, one's coming out next time.
And I'm writing a 15th.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Oh, wow.
Well, they're your mostenduring characters.
Of course, hap and Leonard livein Laborde, texas, which is
obviously East Texas, but we'vebeen talking about it.
So tell me, where would we goto see Laborde?
What is it?
What is it in our area?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
It's borrowed because it's partly Nacogdoches and
it's partly Tilo.
If you put those two togetheryou've got most of it.
But that doesn't mean Iwouldn't borrow here or there.
I'm like a magpie I'll borrowwhatever.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
That's interesting, and those are the characters
Happen Leonard, I meanthemselves.
I always tell people thatLansdale has created two of the
most unique literary charactersI've ever encountered, because
there's nothing out there that Iknow of that are like them and
they're just.
I mean, think about it, it'syou got a guy that is on the
(24:41):
surface.
I always say, you first, youknow, when you, when you first
encounter a pap, oh, this isyour typical East Texas white
dude, you know, and he looksthat way and sounds that way if
you're talking about him on film.
But then you find out he's muchdifferent.
He's not the same guy.
He protested against theVietnam War.
(25:01):
He even went to prison justbecause he didn't want to go
fight in the war.
And then he's friends with withwith Leonard, who is an
African-American guy, who's gaybut then went and fought in
Vietnam.
Yes, oh yeah.
Well, that's the thing too.
These two guys.
They beat the hell out ofeverybody all the time when they
encounter, which is fine andgreat.
(25:23):
So how did you come up withthese guys?
For one thing, did you basethem on something?
And I have to ask you this Isthere anything autobiographical
there about those?
There's a lot of it'sautobiographical.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
A lot of my work is autobiographical and not
necessarily always what happenedto me, what happened people
around me autobiographical inthat sense.
But also the hap is definitelyme at that era, you know, and I
was a vietnam war resistor and Iwas.
They were sending me to prisonand I I didn't, whatever reason.
They gave me a one Y and sentme home.
It's a long story, but I meanthey had me come and I was the
(25:57):
only person that refused to join, and so they sent me to a table
and they said well, are you aconscientious objector?
I said no, I don't believe inthis war.
But a conscientious objector, Isaid would you?
They said would you defendyourself?
I said yeah.
They said would you have foughtin World War II?
I said yeah, but this one, no.
And I think you know, all theseyears later, 54,000 soldiers
(26:20):
dead.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
For what reason?
Speaker 3 (26:23):
And now it's one of our biggest trade partners and
people go there for vacations.
So you know, if they werereally looking, then you could
see that this, this, this wasn'tgoing anywhere.
And I told him all that.
And my brother now he was acaptain, he was in Vietnam, I
think three times, and he's 17years older than me and or was
he died about two weeks ago.
(26:43):
Three weeks ago, oh reallySorry to hear that.
Oh, thank you, but he and I haddifferent views on where we
close and we got along fine, butwe had very different views.
And so they sent me in to seethe psychiatrist because they
didn't know what to do with me.
They sent me home first.
They go home, get prepared andcome back.
Getting prepared for me isprobably folding two pairs of
(27:04):
underwear, it's about all.
And so then I went back, gotthe bus back.
I will tell you this, thoughthey did give you a box lunch
coming and going.
Oh well, there you go.
So both of my trips.
And then they sent me in to seethe psychiatrist.
After they talked to me, Istill wasn't going to do it and
they said well, you can teachmartial arts.
And I said I would love toteach martial arts.
(27:25):
But I said I'm against this warand it would critical for me to
do that.
And they said, well, we could.
You're, you're officer material.
Yeah, we can turn you.
I said, first of all, I don'tbelieve you, and then, second of
all, even if I believed you,it's still the same thing, you
know.
And so I?
They said, well, you knowwhat's going to happen.
I said prison 18 months.
And they said, right, I said Iknow.
And then that's when they sentme in to see the psychiatrist
(27:56):
and I was in there 15 minutes.
He gave me a, one wine.
They sent me home.
I remember being in just kindof a cloud all the way home,
going, wow, what happened.
So, unlike that, I didn't.
I didn't end up having to go toprison, but I knew a few people
that did and so, um, I'm surethat influenced it and Leonard
was.
I knew a few gay martialartists that nobody else knew
was gay and they were just tough, tough people and I thought,
wow, you know this is not,doesn't fit the stereotype?
(28:17):
It sure doesn't, because it'sjust like everybody else you'd
be.
You know, heterosexual,homosexual people are varied.
You have some people that seemobviously one way or the other,
and then others who don't, andyou, you know, you can't make
that judgment, and so to me Ididn't even intend to put him in
there.
I was writing the story SavageSeason, and here's Hap out, you
know, shooting skeet with thisLeonard, and then Trudy shows up
(28:40):
and then later Leonard comesback and I go who is this guy?
Why am I writing about this?
And I had seen and this is rareback then Now it's not, but
back then I saw a black personon TV that was a Republican and
that was like seeing a dodo bird, what.
But of course now things havechanged, but back then that was
very, very rare, and so thatthat went into it, and I was
(29:04):
working in the Rose Fields atthat.
Well, I had worked in the RoseFields.
I wasn't that time.
I'd worked in the Rose Fieldsand I had them working in the
Rose Fields.
I wasn't that time.
I'd worked in the Rose Fieldsand I had them working in the
Rose Fields.
I had worked in aluminum chairfactories and and I had worked
in mobile home factories.
I was a janitor at SFA for sixyears maybe, and then one at
medical.
I was a janitor at medicalcenter and then the high school,
(29:27):
and then that's yeah, bobLaborde whereorde was thus the
town.
Laborde was my boss and afriend of mine.
He died, I think, probably inhis forties I can't remember now
but he may be a little bitolder than that but he was a
young man and he, he ran a frameshop downtown at some point.
He did a variety of things.
(29:48):
The frame shop is sort of theframe shop in Colden July and I
turned the main character into aframer.
But OK, so you see, you, do you?
And it's more complicated thanthat.
I mean, if you really stop andthink, when I wrote the Bottoms,
which is my most, I guess,famous book, that was stories
based on my mom and dad told meand my own experiences, even in
(30:12):
my time, which were not thatvaried from the 30s a little bit
more money, but all the racism,that was there, the true racism
.
It's bad now in some ways, butboy, back back then my God just
awful, and so I use a lot ofthat and I've used it in other
books.
So I use a lot of that and I'veused it in other books.
But I use the 30s because I wasfascinated with the Great
(30:33):
Depression and I was fascinatedwith the river bottoms because I
grew up in them and I wasfascinated with all those old
stories.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So John, I'll say that this has been such a great
conversation.
We're going to do somethingthat we hardly ever have done.
This is going to be a two partis what this is going to be.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, we're going to have part one.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
No, you didn't.
No, we wanted to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, let's go ahead and stop it right here, and then
we'll pick back up where wecame at.
So thanks a lot, everybody, forlistening, and we'll see you at
part two coming up in just acouple of weeks.
Bye-bye you.
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