February 11, 2025 • 31 mins
Part 2 of our conversation with Joe Lansdale, an award-winning author and screenwriter, as he unpacks the influences of East Texas history on his storytelling. Lansdale shares insights on writing for screen adaptations and reflects on the evolution of characters across various mediums, all while urging listeners to remember past lessons as they weave their personal narratives.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbe and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm Scott Sospe.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Today we're going to pick up on part two of our
discussion with award-winningauthor, screenwriter,
storyteller East Texas' very ownJoe Lansdale.
You may be familiar with hisHap and Leonard series or even
the film Bubba Hotep.
Joe's got great stories for usand we're going to pick up on
(01:07):
part two now.
We hope you had a great newyear and it's going well for you
.
We're ready to continue ourseason three with part two of
East Texas Literary Journeyswith Joe Lonsdale.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You know I think I have told you this before you
know when you read.
When you read something, youknow when it's a good writer.
It's when you picture somethingin your head and who they are,
of course, and you get pictures.
And I had photos in my head ofHap and Leonard.
And then I saw the televisionseries.
It was on the Sundance Networkand Purfoy and Michael Kenneth
(01:44):
Williams.
When I saw them, I said theSundance network and Purfoy and
Kenneth, michael KennethWilliams.
When I saw them, I said that'shappened, leonard, that's what
they look like.
They did a great job castingthose guys.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
They did, you know, and James was having he's
British and so he was having alittle trouble with the accent,
so I was on set a lot, so he wastrying to pick up that and I
told him one day I said, man,man, you're gonna have to find
something in the middle you'rejust gonna put your eye out
trying to get this accent.
I you know I said if I waslistening to it I'm not sure I'd
understand it, but but the uhum thing was is they were really
(02:17):
dedicated to it and christinahendrix in the first season was
just wonderful and she nailedeverything.
You know, when I first met hersure, her accent was there
because she was in character,you know, and she she was a
great actress.
All the people in it were and,uh, they filmed that in Baton
Rouge, which is not thatdifferent from East Texas, and
uh, so, yeah, it was a very,very good series and I liked
(02:40):
them.
They made changes sometimes Idisagreed with, but on the whole
I thought they were reallyclose.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah you know it's one of those that the first
season was the best season forme.
They seemed to.
They seemed to get away fromwhat made the first season work,
so much as they went later onwhat they do they do four
seasons, three three.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I liked all three seasons.
They're all good, but yeahseason to me was gold and
there's some things, like I said, I have some, some beefs here
and there, but it was.
It was very successful.
Help my book sales Cold in Julywas a good film.
They made that with Don Johnson, sam Shepard and Michael C Hall
.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And then the Thicket's out now, which is
based on my novel the Thicket.
Yeah, I saw that that's out.
I need to.
I need to watch that.
It's on Tubi right.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
It's probably less like my book than any of the
others.
Is that right and uh, but it'sstill a good film.
But if I were to say is it likemy book, I'd say 40% you know,
you know what?
You still get a hundred percentof a check right.
(03:48):
I got a hundred percent and theand the other um.
The other things, though, weremuch closer, and I felt very
happy and satisfied with them,and I felt that people who
watched them would get my work.
That would be.
Those were my stories, eventhough there were alterations.
It was very close, and so I waspleased with that.
And bubba Hotep, of course,I've been very fortunate with
and I don't tell how manyoptions and screenplays I've
(04:10):
written that never got made, butI got paid for.
I did stuff for Ridley Scott,you know David Lynch options,
stuff of mine, I mean, so I'vebeen very fortunate in that way.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, you know, let me, let me jump in here.
I want to bring in somethingthat you mentioned earlier.
You're talking about racism andI've seen Bubba Hotep, but
you're talking about a half andLeonard you talk about.
You have this theme in there aswell, where you have a main
character who's black andanother main character who's
(04:42):
who's white, and it's it's theirfriendship and one of the
things when I saw bubba hotepand I don't know how much of
this was you and your writing,or the, the, uh, the
interpretation that the directorgave or that the two actors
gave, uh, and great actors,right, great actors, um, in that
(05:03):
and it's a.
You know, it's kind of a out inthe one, and the first time you
watch it it's kind of a I don'tknow what.
The first time you watch itit's kind of silly, uh, and the
premise is kind of silly.
But as I was talking to youright before we got started, the
more I think about it.
I do think about it quite a bitis there is a deep, there is a
deep level.
There's a deep thing to itabout how we perceive reality
and aging.
(05:24):
But the other thing that Ithink is interesting is at the
very end, there's thistransformation where Bruce's
character Elvis, who's notreally Elvis, or maybe he is
really Elvis.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I let people find that out for themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Goes to Ossie Davis's Jack Kennedy, and it's that he
says, mr President, right, whichhe had not said.
The whole movie.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And then at the very end, he says I'm going to take
it that this person is just likeI.
Really believe that I'm Elvis.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
And it was also that he had presidential behavior.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right, and I think that I thought that was very
interesting in that movie isthat, and it was also that he
had presidential behavior.
These two guys who are polaropposites in so many respects
(06:25):
and yet they have this common.
What are you trying to say?
What are you trying to sayabout racism and people?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I'm trying to say that you know, once you know
somebody, you might have atotally different opinion than
what you've been taught.
You know, if you're told blackpeople are bad and you grow up
with that all your life, butyou're not really spending time
with black people outside ofmaybe occasional cross path work
or whatever, especially duringthe era that I grew up, is that
(06:51):
I'm saying that you learn moreabout people by being around
them.
You learn more about peoplewhen they have the same
opportunities and then you seepeople be able to grow beyond
where they are, because a lot oftimes people, white people when
I was growing up, a lot of themwould think well, why don't
they do better if they're sogood?
Well, because they didn't havethe opportunity to do better.
They couldn't.
(07:12):
You know, when I was a kid theycouldn't even go to the same
schools until I got a littleolder.
But when they integrated butfor that there was segregation
they, you know, they go to arestaurant.
They're not going in thatrestaurant, but they might go to
the back and get some food andthey couldn't go to the movie.
They had a separate entranceupstairs, you know, and I
remember seeing them going upthat stairs and I told my I was
(07:35):
a little kid and I told my mom,I said, why are those people
going up that stairs?
She said I don't know, it's notright, but and it don't want to
always be that way.
And at the moment, in thatmoment, I don't know that, it
was an epiphany tip for me, butI never forgot it and later on I
thought about that a lot andI've seen racism change it.
(07:57):
I'm not going to try to saythere's no racism, but I don't
think it's the problem.
It was in the 50s and 60s and70s because they really had no
recourse, none whatsoever.
You know.
Courts were going to ruleagainst them.
There wasn't going to be anopportunity to get above your
standards because you couldn'tget those jobs.
They wouldn't hire you, youknow.
And so a lot of that stuffchanged and started changing in
(08:19):
the late 60s, but it didn'treally impact East Texas almost
till the 80s, you know.
And through the 70s there werestill areas that were segregated
, you know, secretly segregated,but still segregated.
So I've seen all of that happenand so racism and seeing it is
built within me.
And you know, I certainlydidn't suffer from being white,
(08:43):
but I still was veryunderstanding of it because I
was doing the same job as theywere.
We were working in the RoseFields and the aluminum chair.
Well, not the aluminum chairfactory, I don't think they
hired blacks in the aluminumchair factory, but in all of the
field work, for instance.
But a lot of those people, theynever did anything else but that
, not because they didn't wantto, not because they might not
(09:04):
have had the intelligence orwhatever.
They did not have theopportunity, and it wasn't even
making your own opportunity.
They couldn't make their ownopportunity.
They were up against thatceiling and that was it.
Well, that's changeddramatically.
I mean, I remember you neversaw a black lawyer, never saw a
black doctor, and you only sawblack teachers if they were
teaching at the segregatedschool, when they integrated the
(09:28):
school.
I don't remember us having anyBlack teachers.
It could have been something,but I don't think so.
I don't think we had any Blackteachers because they weren't
considered smart enough.
You know you don't go to adoctor that's Black or a woman.
They don't go to a doctorthat's a woman.
They don't know what they'redoing, which is, and you know,
my doctor is female, and so allof these things have changed and
I know many black people thatare in fine professions now.
(09:51):
So I don't, I don't want to saygee, it's all gone.
But I tell you what you don'twant to go back in time and the
good old days as people talkabout weren't that good if you
were black or if you were gay.
You're not living in those days.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And to tell you the truth.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
There was no air conditioning, you didn't have a
lot of the medical help that youhave now.
You didn't have a lot of thedrugs and the technology.
There's things I wish I couldgo back to if I could pick and
choose.
I like the sort of openness wehad, you know, and we didn't
everybody didn't.
Every time you went to a store,I mean like a government
building, you didn't have to gothrough a metal detector and you
(10:30):
know things have changed, andsome of it for a reason.
But that saddens me.
But when I look at like racismand homophobia and all that that
, that still exists but not likeit did.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
It's different, Although I worry sometimes these
days that we're regressing abit.
We are.
We are regressing.
We talk about the Hap andLeonard and these others.
But you've also written anumber of books.
I don't know I'm calling themthis.
I don't know if you'd call thissupernatural Westerns to some
extent, or Westerns and it,which is nobody, does that
(11:04):
hardly at all.
So tell us about those, how youcan see those and how you know.
How do they fit into the genre,how accepted are they?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
I guess is the right way for that well, you know to
also to jump a little forward,there are I influenced a lot of
people now who are writing thosekinds of things and uh, and
I've influenced people thatdon't know, I influenced the
people that influenced them.
There are a lot of peoplewriting happen Leonard way style
type things that didn't do it.
(11:33):
And the black writers and uh,hispanic writers and uh, female
writers like May Cobb, I meanthere's so many and they were
all influenced by my work.
That feels good.
You know, gay writers, allthose people they said, oh, I
read that.
I didn't even know you could dothat.
So when I did the Weird Western,there had been, like Robert
Howard did Weird Westerns.
He did some great short storiesand so I'm sure that influence
(11:57):
was there and there were.
I read these old dime novels.
There was a collection I pickedup of hardback and then they
had a run of I think Ballantyneor somebody did a run of these
old things and Dead in the West.
The first one.
I was influenced very much by afilm called Curse of the Undead
, oh really, and it was avampire Western.
(12:33):
And then, yeah, you know whatwas it?
Billy the Kid Meets Dracula andstuff like that.
Was it Billy the Kid MeetsDracula and stuff like that, and
Frankenstein's Daughter, andyou know there were all kinds of
Westerns that were being made.
You know they even made aWestern that was all with little
people.
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yes, I've seen footage of that.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It was such a fad and such a thing.
So all of that stuff probablyinfluenced and and the dime
novels robert e, howard and uh.
But when I started writing uhdead in the west, curse of the
undead, was was a big influence.
I think I even mentioned thatat first, plus comics like jonah
hex and later on, which I wrotelater, but at that time I
(13:17):
believe jonahx is being muchmore weird than they actually
were.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I guess it's the thicket I have not read it,
though Nobody else was doing it.
I have not read the thicket,which is the movie that just
came out either, and I guess itfits into that that genre Is it?
Not a weird one, okay.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
It's a.
It's a historical.
Okay, my favorite of my booksactually the bottoms is the most
famous and the one they eventeach in college and in high
schools and stuff.
But the uh is paradise sky oh,yeah, yeah yeah, absolute
favorite of all my books is thatright?
I don't know, people can decideon that or another, but it's
certainly my favorite.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Okay, I've got to ask you, because my wife wants to
know this what inspired BubbaHotep?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Is it a play on the on the word succubus?
Speaker 3 (14:10):
No, but, but it is.
I came up with a title BubbaHotep as a joke, and I but that
title stuck with me.
I thought that's kind of funny.
And so one day I got a um, wedid things by letter then and
phone.
I either got a letter or a call.
I don't remember what PaulSalmon was doing an anthology
called Elvis is dead, and therewas Lee uh, I mean Lou Reed and
(14:33):
a bunch of offbeat writers weredoing stories, and so he said
would you do a story for this?
And I went, yeah, I'll do it.
And I didn't really have anyidea.
But when my brother who is, Itold you, before, 17 years older
than me, lived in Memphis, hetried to record at Sun Records.
His wife that he met theregraduated high school with Elvis
Presley.
So he was introduced to Elvisand he even went to a
(14:58):
broadcasting school one time andwas trying to get into that and
he was sitting talking toanother guy that was there.
She was also trying to get in.
They were both desperate to geta job and that was Johnny Cash.
And then, weirdly, my daughter,who's a singer and songwriter,
was produced by Johnny Cash'sson in her last two albums, and
(15:19):
so that connection was there,you know and this is before my
daughter was born, though, but Imean the connection with with
Elvis, and that era was thereand my brother trying to record
his son records.
In the meantime, as a child, uh,when I was about 11, um,
kennedy was assassinated.
So that impacted me a lot,because there was nothing like
that.
At that time, everybody feltlike assassinations of a
(15:42):
president were in the past thatwas Garfield and things like
that but that hit me.
And then at one point, mymother was in a car wreck and
had to be in a nursing home, andyou know she never came out of
it.
She had damage to her that youcouldn't take care of her
yourself because it was 24-7.
So I would go, I would be inthat nursing home a lot,
(16:02):
visiting with her, and you knowthis, and that my brother too,
and I would listen toconversations that people were
having, and a lot of them wereabout nobody remembers me now.
All the things I did in my lifedon't matter, no matter how much
I was lauded, and I thought,well, that's going to be true
for a lot of people.
Right, and you may beremembered, you don't know.
(16:24):
Elvis is certainly remembered.
But he had reached the point inmy story where that didn't
matter anymore, cause, you know,we all, we all arrive at the
same destination, sure, and soall of that influence, bubba
hotel, and when I wrote it Ithought it was, and Don nails
that story.
It's probably 98% what I wrote.
(16:46):
There are the 2%.
There's some changes that Ithink, and I understand why he
did them.
One was money and another wasthat he needed a different kind
of introduction here orsomething like that.
But and he removed somecharacters.
You know, I even had Dillinger.
I personally thought there wereDillinger in there, and so some
of those things were movies.
That just didn't have enough,you know.
(17:08):
But all of that came togetherand I sent the story and after I
sent it I said that is onecrazy story.
And I wrote a withdrawal letterand I was going to pull the
story and before I could send itthe acceptance came.
So this is our best story, thisis our favorite in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I thought yeah, I always knew that.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Well, that's a great background to that.
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, it's such a fascinating story and I think
it's what people have thoughtabout when they think of you.
Probably that's the first thingthat comes to mind.
But you've done other things inhollywood.
You've done other things andwork with movies and things.
So you always hear all thistalk about how the industry is
such cutthroat and how it's.
You know people go there andthey change.
(17:54):
You worked a lot with hollywoodbut still live in natchitoches
so you hadn't gone completelyCalifornia, right.
What's it like?
What's it like being in thatindustry, writing screenplays,
dealing with all the people inthe movie industry?
Just give us a little idea ofwhat it's like to do that.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well, all the bad stuff you heard is true.
There are a lot of great peoplein it.
I mean, you know actors likeBruce and James and Mike bless
his heart, and so many othersare are.
You know, bill Paxton was afriend of mine and you know a
lot of those people.
They're all.
They were all great people andthere are great.
You know Don Coscarelli, whodirected Bubba and also he did
(18:30):
another one of mine calledincident on and off of Mount
Road for masters of horrorshowtime, you know, and they
were great people there andwe're still all friends, you
know, and but when you get intoit, the industry itself is an
entity unto itself and it's it'san evil bastard because it
doesn't care about you.
It's there to exploit you.
(18:51):
That's what it's for.
You have to realize that whenyou make it, you know you're
there.
They have lawyers there thatare only there to exploit you.
And sounds kind of like collegeadministrators, and so you know
it's a tough industry it reallyis.
But you know, I wrote a scriptfor the second season of Happen
Leonard and I got banned fromthe set in the from the on the
(19:16):
second season.
I didn't get to go to the set,and that's because the
showrunner who's a friend ofmine now, john Worth but what
happened is James had called meand told me what they were
thinking about doing and doingthis this is a big variation
from the book and I said I hateto have my name on something
like that.
You know, I said that's awful.
And so James went back and toldhim.
(19:36):
But what he told me is that Idon't want to do it.
I think Lansdale's right and sohe wouldn't do it.
So they were going to do it myway and they did.
But what happened was that Igot to do the script but they
said well, you can take yourname off of it.
I said no, no, no words, punishmyself because I don't like
what you're doing and you're,you're paying me for that script
(19:57):
and it's an acknowledgementI'll have.
And they did some tinkeringwith it, but it's pretty much
what I wrote.
But, um, you know, so I hadthat and then later John
actually I, my agent was tellingme that he even said it in some
article somewhere that I wasright and he was wrong and that
he shouldn't have done it.
But we, we became friends.
I, I really liked John.
I think he's extremely talented, but I do think when the show,
(20:19):
the first season, which was alsothe showrunner, was also the
director was great but it was alot of work.
So they got a guy that did TVand knew how to put TV together.
But I think it suffered becauseof that and I think it was.
In some ways it was much better.
But in some ways it sufferedbecause of that because I think
that the way Jim made it waslike a little like a six part
(20:41):
movie and it felt more movielike than television life.
But that doesn't mean I didn'tlike second and third.
I did.
I, I love that whole series andyou know I got to meet people
like Lou Gossett and stuff likeall of that, cause I was back by
the third season.
They, they, let me.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, they let you back on set after the third
season.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I'm just listening because this is it's a
fascinating.
So I've got two questions andI'll ask the first one here what
does it feel like to have stuffyou've written, that being
produced by somebody else in adifferent medium film,
(21:29):
television reinterpreted andyour characters come to life?
I mean Scott and I many of thepeople who listen are authors.
Right, we write, but it's goingto be a long time before
anybody puts anything I write tofilm.
Right, if you're waiting for abook for me to write, don't wait
for the movie.
(21:49):
I can tell you that.
But for you, what is?
What is that like to see thattranslation?
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Nervous, you know, uh , the thing is, if you sign the
contract and take the money,then you, you know, being a
whiner doesn't, doesn't pay.
But I've often been with someof them, given the opportunity
to have my own say, and I alwayssay that when I'm a uh, like a
producer, sometimes a producerI've also been, you know, a
(22:17):
producer on some stuff, whichmeans that I have a say and but
yet they can do anything theywant, no matter what I say.
But it's, you know, I felt like, uh, what I say, but it's, you
know, I, I felt like, uh, whenit's good, I feel fortunate, and
mostly I've, I've beenfortunate, but I would like to
control more and in fact I'mtrying to produce more.
I want to direct a film of myown and, uh, that we're working
(22:41):
on that and we'll see.
So there there is that need forme to have more input than I've
had in the past.
And it's not that I won'tchange even my own work.
I have.
I've done adaptations of my ownwork and I've written scripts
that were not my own work.
I did adaptations for George RRMartin of Howard Waldrop short
(23:02):
story and I did one of Howard'snovels Vincent D'Onofrio did,
directed and starred in thelittle short one which will
eventually come out.
But he made changes afterchanges were made, but they were
all.
They were all good changes.
You know, I didn't have anyproblem with that and first of
all it wasn't my story but Iadapted as close as I could so I
(23:23):
didn't have to feel bad that ifthey change things where it was
a little different, then youknow I didn't have to say, well,
I did that.
But the things they did didn'treally matter, they improved it
and most of the time that's notthe case.
So you feel, you always feel alittle, a little nervous, I mean
.
And when Love, death and Robotsadapted three of my stories, I
(23:44):
liked all three of them.
I thought one of them theyswitched the character that ends
up not turning out well, let'sput it that way, and I thought
that was a mistake.
But it's a beautiful and prettyclose to my story.
They just pretty literally putmy stories there.
So that felt good.
Creepshow did what me and myson and daughter wrote.
(24:05):
Uh called the companion and itwas changed quite a bit.
I read the script.
I liked the script.
I didn't love the, the actualresult.
You know, I thought which onewas it, which one was it Uh,
it's a creep show the firstseason of the revival, you know
the series, not the movie creepshow.
No, no, no, it's a good seriesand uh, but uh, it was the first
(24:27):
season and I think it was likeone of the first three episodes
or something.
I think they would do two eachtime, if I remember correctly.
And uh, you know, I wroteBatman, the animated series, and
when I wrote for that, theypretty much did my scripts.
As I wrote them, I sort ofpre-directed them, which has
made me, you know, practice, uh,with the idea of directing in a
way, even though they werescripts.
(24:48):
And I remember on they have abox set and Bruce Timm says I
wish we could print his scriptson here, you know, because I
think my scripts were fun,because I put stuff in it that
the audience will never see butthat the people looking at it
will see.
And script writing is not ablueprint.
When people tell you that, Ialways cringe because blueprints
are no fun to read.
But what you want to do is youdon't want to overdo it and you
(25:13):
don't want to tell the directorhow to do it.
And the animation, I felt alittle different.
But it's a different animal,it's a very different animal and
the best of the screenplayshould be fun to read, just like
anything else, it almost shouldbe like a prose poem and moving
you from one scene to another,and a lot of people don't feel
that way and a lot of thingsthat are filmed are filmed as
(25:37):
blueprints.
But I believe that you need tobring yourself to it without
taking away, if it's anadaptation, without taking away
the author, and I always believethat you can do things closer
to what they did than a lot ofpeople do.
When they'll tell you, oh, theyjust won't shoot, or they'll
say film and a book aren't thesame, I always go, oh, really,
no joke.
I knew that I've actuallywritten a lot of screenplays,
(26:00):
but the thing is is that a lotof times they don't change it
because of that.
They change it because theywant to.
They change it because they hadideas that they have never used
and did not have enough talentto put together, so they weld it
to somebody else's idea.
And then the screenwriter Iwant to be known for my work,
not this guy so they begin tochange it.
And even in the televisionseries Happen Lender, which I
(26:23):
love, you have a writer's room,and I don't love writer's rooms,
even though you know that,because you got too many cooks
and uh, and then everybody wantsto put their piece in and, and
as a business they try to dothat.
This person, you know that dogthat peed on that hydrant, I did
that, you know and you go yeah,really Well, that made a big
difference, didn't it?
But it's just, you know stufflike that, and but overall I've
(26:47):
been very fortunate.
But yeah, it's always a nervouskind of situation.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
OK, so this podcast is about Texas history and you
know we say at the beginningit's about people who write it
and people who've lived it.
You're one of those peoplewho've lived it and made it so
and you've kind of talked aboutthis already.
So I'm going to ask you just tokind of round up those thoughts
again how has Texas historyhelped to shape your work.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
When I was growing up , texas history was taught in
schools and it was a veryimportant part of what we were
taught and I never thought ofmyself as a kid, as an American.
I was a Texan.
As I grew older, of course, Ibegan to understand it was a
bigger situation, but we werereally taught to respect and
love Texas history.
Some of the Texas history wewere taught has changed because
(27:39):
more information has come along,but I always felt that we had a
unique place here and I feltlike that we had a unique
history, having been a countryand having all the things.
We had a unique place here andI felt like that we had a unique
history, having been a countryand having all the things we had
happened good, bad, however youwant to perceive them.
I thought that this place hasalmost a magical feel, almost a
magical realism about it whichinfluenced what I did.
(28:01):
And so, to me, texas history,history in general I'm a big.
I almost, you know, majored inoh, I did major in history
briefly, but I just I lovehistory.
It's very important to me andit's been the result of me
writing things like the Thicket,the Bottoms, you know, sunset
and Sawdust, a Fine Dark Line,paradise Sky, which is, yeah and
(28:25):
Edge of Dark Water, other booksbut my love of history, those
are all historicals.
My love of history hasinfluenced that and it's also
made me excited.
And what scares me these daysis nobody learns from history
anymore.
Maybe we never did and we don'tlearn from history.
(28:46):
We just repeat the same foolishthings over and over and over.
And I keep thinking it's rightthere, just look at it, look
what we did before, don't dothat again.
See how it worked out.
And so to me it's also.
It's informative.
It teaches you how to live.
It teaches you how to respectwhat's gone before without
accepting everything that's gonebefore you know.
(29:08):
So, to me, very important.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
We always want to leave our guests.
We always ask a question at theend of every one of our
programs.
If we have a signature for thetens of people who listen to our
podcast, this must be it.
So we always give the lastquestion to the guests and this
is their chance to leave us withwords of wisdom.
So we ask joe lonsdale, what doyou know?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
not much and when you get a list, then you know, you
know.
But I would say, for writing,I'll give you a writing tip
write like everybody you know isdead, don't write oh wow, that
is good don't write for friends.
Don't do that.
Now.
Some people have the ability tohave an idea about what the
audience want and I'm nothingagainst that.
(29:50):
I mean, I've been trying tosell out forever but it just
doesn't happen.
And I just felt that when Itried to do that, when I first
started, I was looking for youknow what's the slant?
Well, the slant changes by thetime you get finished and also
it takes away from your ownpersonal or the depth of your
(30:11):
personal involvement in the work.
And, like you were just talkingabout, I can bring history, I
can bring my own past and I canput it in what are commonly
thought of as genre novels,which I love.
But I also love literature andmainstream novels, but I think
the best genre novels areliterature.
I mean, I'd argue all day longthat Raymond Chandler and James
(30:31):
Cain wrote literature.
You know crime backgrounds, butit's literature and Ray
Bradford and a lot of otherwriters that worked in those
fields.
So I think that's what I'velearned for me to be able to
have the career I've had, whichhas been really good, is write
like everybody I know is dead.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
That is great.
We've had some really goodideas.
People ended with that's one ofthe best, and I've never heard
that.
Of course, as a historian, weget to do that a lot.
Everybody is dead.
Everybody is dead.
We're right about it.
So, joe, this has beenfantastic.
Thank you so much for agreeingto come on with us.
Thank you.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbe and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm Scott Sospe.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Today we're going to pick up on part two of our
discussion with award-winningauthor, screenwriter,
storyteller East Texas' very ownJoe Lansdale.
You may be familiar with hisHap and Leonard series or even
the film Bubba Hotep.
Joe's got great stories for usand we're going to pick up on
(01:07):
part two now.
We hope you had a great newyear and it's going well for you
.
We're ready to continue ourseason three with part two of
East Texas Literary Journeyswith Joe Lonsdale.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You know I think I have told you this before you
know when you read.
When you read something, youknow when it's a good writer.
It's when you picture somethingin your head and who they are,
of course, and you get pictures.
And I had photos in my head ofHap and Leonard.
And then I saw the televisionseries.
It was on the Sundance Networkand Purfoy and Michael Kenneth
(01:44):
Williams.
When I saw them, I said theSundance network and Purfoy and
Kenneth, michael KennethWilliams.
When I saw them, I said that'shappened, leonard, that's what
they look like.
They did a great job castingthose guys.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
They did, you know, and James was having he's
British and so he was having alittle trouble with the accent,
so I was on set a lot, so he wastrying to pick up that and I
told him one day I said, man,man, you're gonna have to find
something in the middle you'rejust gonna put your eye out
trying to get this accent.
I you know I said if I waslistening to it I'm not sure I'd
understand it, but but the uhum thing was is they were really
(02:17):
dedicated to it and christinahendrix in the first season was
just wonderful and she nailedeverything.
You know, when I first met hersure, her accent was there
because she was in character,you know, and she she was a
great actress.
All the people in it were and,uh, they filmed that in Baton
Rouge, which is not thatdifferent from East Texas, and
uh, so, yeah, it was a very,very good series and I liked
(02:40):
them.
They made changes sometimes Idisagreed with, but on the whole
I thought they were reallyclose.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah you know it's one of those that the first
season was the best season forme.
They seemed to.
They seemed to get away fromwhat made the first season work,
so much as they went later onwhat they do they do four
seasons, three three.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I liked all three seasons.
They're all good, but yeahseason to me was gold and
there's some things, like I said, I have some, some beefs here
and there, but it was.
It was very successful.
Help my book sales Cold in Julywas a good film.
They made that with Don Johnson, sam Shepard and Michael C Hall
.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And then the Thicket's out now, which is
based on my novel the Thicket.
Yeah, I saw that that's out.
I need to.
I need to watch that.
It's on Tubi right.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
It's probably less like my book than any of the
others.
Is that right and uh, but it'sstill a good film.
But if I were to say is it likemy book, I'd say 40% you know,
you know what?
You still get a hundred percentof a check right.
(03:48):
I got a hundred percent and theand the other um.
The other things, though, weremuch closer, and I felt very
happy and satisfied with them,and I felt that people who
watched them would get my work.
That would be.
Those were my stories, eventhough there were alterations.
It was very close, and so I waspleased with that.
And bubba Hotep, of course,I've been very fortunate with
and I don't tell how manyoptions and screenplays I've
(04:10):
written that never got made, butI got paid for.
I did stuff for Ridley Scott,you know David Lynch options,
stuff of mine, I mean, so I'vebeen very fortunate in that way.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, you know, let me, let me jump in here.
I want to bring in somethingthat you mentioned earlier.
You're talking about racism andI've seen Bubba Hotep, but
you're talking about a half andLeonard you talk about.
You have this theme in there aswell, where you have a main
character who's black andanother main character who's
(04:42):
who's white, and it's it's theirfriendship and one of the
things when I saw bubba hotepand I don't know how much of
this was you and your writing,or the, the, uh, the
interpretation that the directorgave or that the two actors
gave, uh, and great actors,right, great actors, um, in that
(05:03):
and it's a.
You know, it's kind of a out inthe one, and the first time you
watch it it's kind of a I don'tknow what.
The first time you watch itit's kind of silly, uh, and the
premise is kind of silly.
But as I was talking to youright before we got started, the
more I think about it.
I do think about it quite a bitis there is a deep, there is a
deep level.
There's a deep thing to itabout how we perceive reality
and aging.
(05:24):
But the other thing that Ithink is interesting is at the
very end, there's thistransformation where Bruce's
character Elvis, who's notreally Elvis, or maybe he is
really Elvis.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I let people find that out for themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Goes to Ossie Davis's Jack Kennedy, and it's that he
says, mr President, right, whichhe had not said.
The whole movie.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And then at the very end, he says I'm going to take
it that this person is just likeI.
Really believe that I'm Elvis.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
And it was also that he had presidential behavior.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right, and I think that I thought that was very
interesting in that movie isthat, and it was also that he
had presidential behavior.
These two guys who are polaropposites in so many respects
(06:25):
and yet they have this common.
What are you trying to say?
What are you trying to sayabout racism and people?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I'm trying to say that you know, once you know
somebody, you might have atotally different opinion than
what you've been taught.
You know, if you're told blackpeople are bad and you grow up
with that all your life, butyou're not really spending time
with black people outside ofmaybe occasional cross path work
or whatever, especially duringthe era that I grew up, is that
(06:51):
I'm saying that you learn moreabout people by being around
them.
You learn more about peoplewhen they have the same
opportunities and then you seepeople be able to grow beyond
where they are, because a lot oftimes people, white people when
I was growing up, a lot of themwould think well, why don't
they do better if they're sogood?
Well, because they didn't havethe opportunity to do better.
They couldn't.
(07:12):
You know, when I was a kid theycouldn't even go to the same
schools until I got a littleolder.
But when they integrated butfor that there was segregation
they, you know, they go to arestaurant.
They're not going in thatrestaurant, but they might go to
the back and get some food andthey couldn't go to the movie.
They had a separate entranceupstairs, you know, and I
remember seeing them going upthat stairs and I told my I was
(07:35):
a little kid and I told my mom,I said, why are those people
going up that stairs?
She said I don't know, it's notright, but and it don't want to
always be that way.
And at the moment, in thatmoment, I don't know that, it
was an epiphany tip for me, butI never forgot it and later on I
thought about that a lot andI've seen racism change it.
(07:57):
I'm not going to try to saythere's no racism, but I don't
think it's the problem.
It was in the 50s and 60s and70s because they really had no
recourse, none whatsoever.
You know.
Courts were going to ruleagainst them.
There wasn't going to be anopportunity to get above your
standards because you couldn'tget those jobs.
They wouldn't hire you, youknow.
And so a lot of that stuffchanged and started changing in
(08:19):
the late 60s, but it didn'treally impact East Texas almost
till the 80s, you know.
And through the 70s there werestill areas that were segregated
, you know, secretly segregated,but still segregated.
So I've seen all of that happenand so racism and seeing it is
built within me.
And you know, I certainlydidn't suffer from being white,
(08:43):
but I still was veryunderstanding of it because I
was doing the same job as theywere.
We were working in the RoseFields and the aluminum chair.
Well, not the aluminum chairfactory, I don't think they
hired blacks in the aluminumchair factory, but in all of the
field work, for instance.
But a lot of those people, theynever did anything else but that
, not because they didn't wantto, not because they might not
(09:04):
have had the intelligence orwhatever.
They did not have theopportunity, and it wasn't even
making your own opportunity.
They couldn't make their ownopportunity.
They were up against thatceiling and that was it.
Well, that's changeddramatically.
I mean, I remember you neversaw a black lawyer, never saw a
black doctor, and you only sawblack teachers if they were
teaching at the segregatedschool, when they integrated the
(09:28):
school.
I don't remember us having anyBlack teachers.
It could have been something,but I don't think so.
I don't think we had any Blackteachers because they weren't
considered smart enough.
You know you don't go to adoctor that's Black or a woman.
They don't go to a doctorthat's a woman.
They don't know what they'redoing, which is, and you know,
my doctor is female, and so allof these things have changed and
I know many black people thatare in fine professions now.
(09:51):
So I don't, I don't want to saygee, it's all gone.
But I tell you what you don'twant to go back in time and the
good old days as people talkabout weren't that good if you
were black or if you were gay.
You're not living in those days.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And to tell you the truth.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
There was no air conditioning, you didn't have a
lot of the medical help that youhave now.
You didn't have a lot of thedrugs and the technology.
There's things I wish I couldgo back to if I could pick and
choose.
I like the sort of openness wehad, you know, and we didn't
everybody didn't.
Every time you went to a store,I mean like a government
building, you didn't have to gothrough a metal detector and you
(10:30):
know things have changed, andsome of it for a reason.
But that saddens me.
But when I look at like racismand homophobia and all that that
, that still exists but not likeit did.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
It's different, Although I worry sometimes these
days that we're regressing abit.
We are.
We are regressing.
We talk about the Hap andLeonard and these others.
But you've also written anumber of books.
I don't know I'm calling themthis.
I don't know if you'd call thissupernatural Westerns to some
extent, or Westerns and it,which is nobody, does that
(11:04):
hardly at all.
So tell us about those, how youcan see those and how you know.
How do they fit into the genre,how accepted are they?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
I guess is the right way for that well, you know to
also to jump a little forward,there are I influenced a lot of
people now who are writing thosekinds of things and uh, and
I've influenced people thatdon't know, I influenced the
people that influenced them.
There are a lot of peoplewriting happen Leonard way style
type things that didn't do it.
(11:33):
And the black writers and uh,hispanic writers and uh, female
writers like May Cobb, I meanthere's so many and they were
all influenced by my work.
That feels good.
You know, gay writers, allthose people they said, oh, I
read that.
I didn't even know you could dothat.
So when I did the Weird Western,there had been, like Robert
Howard did Weird Westerns.
He did some great short storiesand so I'm sure that influence
(11:57):
was there and there were.
I read these old dime novels.
There was a collection I pickedup of hardback and then they
had a run of I think Ballantyneor somebody did a run of these
old things and Dead in the West.
The first one.
I was influenced very much by afilm called Curse of the Undead
, oh really, and it was avampire Western.
(12:33):
And then, yeah, you know whatwas it?
Billy the Kid Meets Dracula andstuff like that.
Was it Billy the Kid MeetsDracula and stuff like that, and
Frankenstein's Daughter, andyou know there were all kinds of
Westerns that were being made.
You know they even made aWestern that was all with little
people.
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yes, I've seen footage of that.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It was such a fad and such a thing.
So all of that stuff probablyinfluenced and and the dime
novels robert e, howard and uh.
But when I started writing uhdead in the west, curse of the
undead, was was a big influence.
I think I even mentioned thatat first, plus comics like jonah
hex and later on, which I wrotelater, but at that time I
(13:17):
believe jonahx is being muchmore weird than they actually
were.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I guess it's the thicket I have not read it,
though Nobody else was doing it.
I have not read the thicket,which is the movie that just
came out either, and I guess itfits into that that genre Is it?
Not a weird one, okay.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
It's a.
It's a historical.
Okay, my favorite of my booksactually the bottoms is the most
famous and the one they eventeach in college and in high
schools and stuff.
But the uh is paradise sky oh,yeah, yeah yeah, absolute
favorite of all my books is thatright?
I don't know, people can decideon that or another, but it's
certainly my favorite.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Okay, I've got to ask you, because my wife wants to
know this what inspired BubbaHotep?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Is it a play on the on the word succubus?
Speaker 3 (14:10):
No, but, but it is.
I came up with a title BubbaHotep as a joke, and I but that
title stuck with me.
I thought that's kind of funny.
And so one day I got a um, wedid things by letter then and
phone.
I either got a letter or a call.
I don't remember what PaulSalmon was doing an anthology
called Elvis is dead, and therewas Lee uh, I mean Lou Reed and
(14:33):
a bunch of offbeat writers weredoing stories, and so he said
would you do a story for this?
And I went, yeah, I'll do it.
And I didn't really have anyidea.
But when my brother who is, Itold you, before, 17 years older
than me, lived in Memphis, hetried to record at Sun Records.
His wife that he met theregraduated high school with Elvis
Presley.
So he was introduced to Elvisand he even went to a
(14:58):
broadcasting school one time andwas trying to get into that and
he was sitting talking toanother guy that was there.
She was also trying to get in.
They were both desperate to geta job and that was Johnny Cash.
And then, weirdly, my daughter,who's a singer and songwriter,
was produced by Johnny Cash'sson in her last two albums, and
(15:19):
so that connection was there,you know and this is before my
daughter was born, though, but Imean the connection with with
Elvis, and that era was thereand my brother trying to record
his son records.
In the meantime, as a child, uh,when I was about 11, um,
kennedy was assassinated.
So that impacted me a lot,because there was nothing like
that.
At that time, everybody feltlike assassinations of a
(15:42):
president were in the past thatwas Garfield and things like
that but that hit me.
And then at one point, mymother was in a car wreck and
had to be in a nursing home, andyou know she never came out of
it.
She had damage to her that youcouldn't take care of her
yourself because it was 24-7.
So I would go, I would be inthat nursing home a lot,
(16:02):
visiting with her, and you knowthis, and that my brother too,
and I would listen toconversations that people were
having, and a lot of them wereabout nobody remembers me now.
All the things I did in my lifedon't matter, no matter how much
I was lauded, and I thought,well, that's going to be true
for a lot of people.
Right, and you may beremembered, you don't know.
(16:24):
Elvis is certainly remembered.
But he had reached the point inmy story where that didn't
matter anymore, cause, you know,we all, we all arrive at the
same destination, sure, and soall of that influence, bubba
hotel, and when I wrote it Ithought it was, and Don nails
that story.
It's probably 98% what I wrote.
(16:46):
There are the 2%.
There's some changes that Ithink, and I understand why he
did them.
One was money and another wasthat he needed a different kind
of introduction here orsomething like that.
But and he removed somecharacters.
You know, I even had Dillinger.
I personally thought there wereDillinger in there, and so some
of those things were movies.
That just didn't have enough,you know.
(17:08):
But all of that came togetherand I sent the story and after I
sent it I said that is onecrazy story.
And I wrote a withdrawal letterand I was going to pull the
story and before I could send itthe acceptance came.
So this is our best story, thisis our favorite in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I thought yeah, I always knew that.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Well, that's a great background to that.
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, it's such a fascinating story and I think
it's what people have thoughtabout when they think of you.
Probably that's the first thingthat comes to mind.
But you've done other things inhollywood.
You've done other things andwork with movies and things.
So you always hear all thistalk about how the industry is
such cutthroat and how it's.
You know people go there andthey change.
(17:54):
You worked a lot with hollywoodbut still live in natchitoches
so you hadn't gone completelyCalifornia, right.
What's it like?
What's it like being in thatindustry, writing screenplays,
dealing with all the people inthe movie industry?
Just give us a little idea ofwhat it's like to do that.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well, all the bad stuff you heard is true.
There are a lot of great peoplein it.
I mean, you know actors likeBruce and James and Mike bless
his heart, and so many othersare are.
You know, bill Paxton was afriend of mine and you know a
lot of those people.
They're all.
They were all great people andthere are great.
You know Don Coscarelli, whodirected Bubba and also he did
(18:30):
another one of mine calledincident on and off of Mount
Road for masters of horrorshowtime, you know, and they
were great people there andwe're still all friends, you
know, and but when you get intoit, the industry itself is an
entity unto itself and it's it'san evil bastard because it
doesn't care about you.
It's there to exploit you.
(18:51):
That's what it's for.
You have to realize that whenyou make it, you know you're
there.
They have lawyers there thatare only there to exploit you.
And sounds kind of like collegeadministrators, and so you know
it's a tough industry it reallyis.
But you know, I wrote a scriptfor the second season of Happen
Leonard and I got banned fromthe set in the from the on the
(19:16):
second season.
I didn't get to go to the set,and that's because the
showrunner who's a friend ofmine now, john Worth but what
happened is James had called meand told me what they were
thinking about doing and doingthis this is a big variation
from the book and I said I hateto have my name on something
like that.
You know, I said that's awful.
And so James went back and toldhim.
(19:36):
But what he told me is that Idon't want to do it.
I think Lansdale's right and sohe wouldn't do it.
So they were going to do it myway and they did.
But what happened was that Igot to do the script but they
said well, you can take yourname off of it.
I said no, no, no words, punishmyself because I don't like
what you're doing and you're,you're paying me for that script
(19:57):
and it's an acknowledgementI'll have.
And they did some tinkeringwith it, but it's pretty much
what I wrote.
But, um, you know, so I hadthat and then later John
actually I, my agent was tellingme that he even said it in some
article somewhere that I wasright and he was wrong and that
he shouldn't have done it.
But we, we became friends.
I, I really liked John.
I think he's extremely talented, but I do think when the show,
(20:19):
the first season, which was alsothe showrunner, was also the
director was great but it was alot of work.
So they got a guy that did TVand knew how to put TV together.
But I think it suffered becauseof that and I think it was.
In some ways it was much better.
But in some ways it sufferedbecause of that because I think
that the way Jim made it waslike a little like a six part
(20:41):
movie and it felt more movielike than television life.
But that doesn't mean I didn'tlike second and third.
I did.
I, I love that whole series andyou know I got to meet people
like Lou Gossett and stuff likeall of that, cause I was back by
the third season.
They, they, let me.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, they let you back on set after the third
season.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I'm just listening because this is it's a
fascinating.
So I've got two questions andI'll ask the first one here what
does it feel like to have stuffyou've written, that being
produced by somebody else in adifferent medium film,
(21:29):
television reinterpreted andyour characters come to life?
I mean Scott and I many of thepeople who listen are authors.
Right, we write, but it's goingto be a long time before
anybody puts anything I write tofilm.
Right, if you're waiting for abook for me to write, don't wait
for the movie.
(21:49):
I can tell you that.
But for you, what is?
What is that like to see thattranslation?
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Nervous, you know, uh , the thing is, if you sign the
contract and take the money,then you, you know, being a
whiner doesn't, doesn't pay.
But I've often been with someof them, given the opportunity
to have my own say, and I alwayssay that when I'm a uh, like a
producer, sometimes a producerI've also been, you know, a
(22:17):
producer on some stuff, whichmeans that I have a say and but
yet they can do anything theywant, no matter what I say.
But it's, you know, I felt like, uh, what I say, but it's, you
know, I, I felt like, uh, whenit's good, I feel fortunate, and
mostly I've, I've beenfortunate, but I would like to
control more and in fact I'mtrying to produce more.
I want to direct a film of myown and, uh, that we're working
(22:41):
on that and we'll see.
So there there is that need forme to have more input than I've
had in the past.
And it's not that I won'tchange even my own work.
I have.
I've done adaptations of my ownwork and I've written scripts
that were not my own work.
I did adaptations for George RRMartin of Howard Waldrop short
(23:02):
story and I did one of Howard'snovels Vincent D'Onofrio did,
directed and starred in thelittle short one which will
eventually come out.
But he made changes afterchanges were made, but they were
all.
They were all good changes.
You know, I didn't have anyproblem with that and first of
all it wasn't my story but Iadapted as close as I could so I
(23:23):
didn't have to feel bad that ifthey change things where it was
a little different, then youknow I didn't have to say, well,
I did that.
But the things they did didn'treally matter, they improved it
and most of the time that's notthe case.
So you feel, you always feel alittle, a little nervous, I mean
.
And when Love, death and Robotsadapted three of my stories, I
(23:44):
liked all three of them.
I thought one of them theyswitched the character that ends
up not turning out well, let'sput it that way, and I thought
that was a mistake.
But it's a beautiful and prettyclose to my story.
They just pretty literally putmy stories there.
So that felt good.
Creepshow did what me and myson and daughter wrote.
(24:05):
Uh called the companion and itwas changed quite a bit.
I read the script.
I liked the script.
I didn't love the, the actualresult.
You know, I thought which onewas it, which one was it Uh,
it's a creep show the firstseason of the revival, you know
the series, not the movie creepshow.
No, no, no, it's a good seriesand uh, but uh, it was the first
(24:27):
season and I think it was likeone of the first three episodes
or something.
I think they would do two eachtime, if I remember correctly.
And uh, you know, I wroteBatman, the animated series, and
when I wrote for that, theypretty much did my scripts.
As I wrote them, I sort ofpre-directed them, which has
made me, you know, practice, uh,with the idea of directing in a
way, even though they werescripts.
(24:48):
And I remember on they have abox set and Bruce Timm says I
wish we could print his scriptson here, you know, because I
think my scripts were fun,because I put stuff in it that
the audience will never see butthat the people looking at it
will see.
And script writing is not ablueprint.
When people tell you that, Ialways cringe because blueprints
are no fun to read.
But what you want to do is youdon't want to overdo it and you
(25:13):
don't want to tell the directorhow to do it.
And the animation, I felt alittle different.
But it's a different animal,it's a very different animal and
the best of the screenplayshould be fun to read, just like
anything else, it almost shouldbe like a prose poem and moving
you from one scene to another,and a lot of people don't feel
that way and a lot of thingsthat are filmed are filmed as
(25:37):
blueprints.
But I believe that you need tobring yourself to it without
taking away, if it's anadaptation, without taking away
the author, and I always believethat you can do things closer
to what they did than a lot ofpeople do.
When they'll tell you, oh, theyjust won't shoot, or they'll
say film and a book aren't thesame, I always go, oh, really,
no joke.
I knew that I've actuallywritten a lot of screenplays,
(26:00):
but the thing is is that a lotof times they don't change it
because of that.
They change it because theywant to.
They change it because they hadideas that they have never used
and did not have enough talentto put together, so they weld it
to somebody else's idea.
And then the screenwriter Iwant to be known for my work,
not this guy so they begin tochange it.
And even in the televisionseries Happen Lender, which I
(26:23):
love, you have a writer's room,and I don't love writer's rooms,
even though you know that,because you got too many cooks
and uh, and then everybody wantsto put their piece in and, and
as a business they try to dothat.
This person, you know that dogthat peed on that hydrant, I did
that, you know and you go yeah,really Well, that made a big
difference, didn't it?
But it's just, you know stufflike that, and but overall I've
(26:47):
been very fortunate.
But yeah, it's always a nervouskind of situation.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
OK, so this podcast is about Texas history and you
know we say at the beginningit's about people who write it
and people who've lived it.
You're one of those peoplewho've lived it and made it so
and you've kind of talked aboutthis already.
So I'm going to ask you just tokind of round up those thoughts
again how has Texas historyhelped to shape your work.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
When I was growing up , texas history was taught in
schools and it was a veryimportant part of what we were
taught and I never thought ofmyself as a kid, as an American.
I was a Texan.
As I grew older, of course, Ibegan to understand it was a
bigger situation, but we werereally taught to respect and
love Texas history.
Some of the Texas history wewere taught has changed because
(27:39):
more information has come along,but I always felt that we had a
unique place here and I feltlike that we had a unique
history, having been a countryand having all the things.
We had a unique place here andI felt like that we had a unique
history, having been a countryand having all the things we had
happened good, bad, however youwant to perceive them.
I thought that this place hasalmost a magical feel, almost a
magical realism about it whichinfluenced what I did.
(28:01):
And so, to me, texas history,history in general I'm a big.
I almost, you know, majored inoh, I did major in history
briefly, but I just I lovehistory.
It's very important to me andit's been the result of me
writing things like the Thicket,the Bottoms, you know, sunset
and Sawdust, a Fine Dark Line,paradise Sky, which is, yeah and
(28:25):
Edge of Dark Water, other booksbut my love of history, those
are all historicals.
My love of history hasinfluenced that and it's also
made me excited.
And what scares me these daysis nobody learns from history
anymore.
Maybe we never did and we don'tlearn from history.
(28:46):
We just repeat the same foolishthings over and over and over.
And I keep thinking it's rightthere, just look at it, look
what we did before, don't dothat again.
See how it worked out.
And so to me it's also.
It's informative.
It teaches you how to live.
It teaches you how to respectwhat's gone before without
accepting everything that's gonebefore you know.
(29:08):
So, to me, very important.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
We always want to leave our guests.
We always ask a question at theend of every one of our
programs.
If we have a signature for thetens of people who listen to our
podcast, this must be it.
So we always give the lastquestion to the guests and this
is their chance to leave us withwords of wisdom.
So we ask joe lonsdale, what doyou know?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
not much and when you get a list, then you know, you
know.
But I would say, for writing,I'll give you a writing tip
write like everybody you know isdead, don't write oh wow, that
is good don't write for friends.
Don't do that.
Now.
Some people have the ability tohave an idea about what the
audience want and I'm nothingagainst that.
(29:50):
I mean, I've been trying tosell out forever but it just
doesn't happen.
And I just felt that when Itried to do that, when I first
started, I was looking for youknow what's the slant?
Well, the slant changes by thetime you get finished and also
it takes away from your ownpersonal or the depth of your
(30:11):
personal involvement in the work.
And, like you were just talkingabout, I can bring history, I
can bring my own past and I canput it in what are commonly
thought of as genre novels,which I love.
But I also love literature andmainstream novels, but I think
the best genre novels areliterature.
I mean, I'd argue all day longthat Raymond Chandler and James
(30:31):
Cain wrote literature.
You know crime backgrounds, butit's literature and Ray
Bradford and a lot of otherwriters that worked in those
fields.
So I think that's what I'velearned for me to be able to
have the career I've had, whichhas been really good, is write
like everybody I know is dead.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
That is great.
We've had some really goodideas.
People ended with that's one ofthe best, and I've never heard
that.
Of course, as a historian, weget to do that a lot.
Everybody is dead.
Everybody is dead.
We're right about it.
So, joe, this has beenfantastic.
Thank you so much for agreeingto come on with us.
Thank you.
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