April 15, 2025 • 34 mins
From department stores to frontier towns, the Jewish experience in Texas reveals a fascinating but often overlooked dimension of the state's cultural landscape. In this conversation with Dr. Bryan E. Stone, professor at Del Mar College and author of The Chosen Folks: Jews on the Frontiers of Texas, we'll learn about Jewish Texans as an often overlooked story.
Despite their small numbers, Jewish Texans wielded remarkable influence, Stone's explains that Jews are a "quintessential frontier people". His observations offers a fresh perspective on their experience as cultural navigators who defined themselves against majority cultures while building bridges between different worlds.
This conversation fills a crucial gap in Texas historiography while reminding us that history isn't merely an academic subject but the living context that shapes our everyday lives. Listen now to discover this hidden dimension of Texas heritage that challenges conventional understandings of the Lone Star State.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbeck and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Scott, we have a new showplanned for everyone.
We've been on a little bit of ahiatus here.
You've been on sabbatical andI've been sick with some
(01:00):
respiratory problems, actuallysince about December of 2024.
Gotten better, gotten worse,gotten better, gotten worse,
gotten better.
So we're ready to get startedwith some new shows and, scott,
I'm going to let you introducethis one.
Okay, why don't you introduceour special guest today?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, gene, we have with us today Brian Stone.
He's at Delmore College,correct, brian?
That's correct.
So, just as we do with all ofour guests, brian, how about you
just get us started?
Tell us about yourself, yourbackground, your education, your
current position, all that goodbio stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Sure, sure.
My name is Brian Edward Stone.
I am a professor of history atDel Mar College, which is the
two-year community college inCorpus Christi.
I have been here now for 21years.
Wow, I have to remind myself.
I know I have to go back andcount it up on my abacus,
otherwise I forget.
But yeah, 21 years Before thatI did a five-year stint at a
(01:52):
community college in Montana andI was doing my grad work in
Austin before that, at UT.
So I have a doctorate inAmerican Studies from University
of Texas and Native Texangenerations.
Where'd you grow up, Brian?
Dallas Grew up in Dallas,Although I was born in Houston.
Grew up in Dallas.
Sometimes say I grew up inAustin because that's where
(02:13):
college is.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
There, you go.
We all grew up when we were incollege, right?
Yeah, you know, that's one ofthose things we Texans know.
You know, if you're living inDallas, you don't want to tell
people you're from Houston andvice versa, because they'll make
fun of you, Right.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, that's true, I never.
I never had that problem I love.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I love how my friends Jean one of them that are from
Houston they call Dallas NorthOklahoma or South Oklahoma.
Yeah, which, which you know,and so I just tell my that's
West Louisiana.
He doesn't call you a Yankee,does he Sometimes?
Gene's from New Braunfels.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Uh-huh, yeah Well.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Brian, you're unique for being on here.
No-transcript in the Lone StarState.
Although it's actually veryvibrant and very varied, it's
(03:11):
not exactly the first thing thatcomes to mind for many people
when they think of Texas and itshistory.
And with all that in mind, whydon't you give our listeners a
few things that you think theyshould know?
If you said you, our listenersa few things that you think they
should know, if you said no, wehad a great Paul Carlson junior
in mind, mentor at Texas Tech.
Every time we were in class andhe was testing, he would say
give me three things that I needto know about.
(03:33):
So how, about three things thatwe need?
to know about Jews in Texas.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Good, I'm going to give you a fourth unrequested.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That's even better.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
There are other scholars of Texas Jewish history
and I don't want to take all ofthe credit.
There's a sort of small cadreof us doing a lot of really good
work, including some gradstudents who deserve not to be
overlooked.
But as far as sort of what Iwould summarize it, I would
point out that there has been aJewish population in Texas since
there was Texas.
(04:02):
It's been here the entire time,1836 and beyond.
It's a very small community.
It always has been Best.
Statistics put it at roughlyabout half a percent of the
Texas population, One half of 1%, 0.6% roughly, which is very
(04:23):
small.
But it's had, I guess I'd sayan outsized influence that
because of where Jewish Texanskind of placed themselves, this
kind of economic niche that theyfound, they tended to be far
more visible than their numberswould kind of suggest.
They were running Main Streetstores, they were running
well-known businesses, they wereNeiman Marcus, they were Sanger
(04:43):
Brothers, and it gave them kindof a visibility above and
beyond what they ordinarilywould have had with such a small
population.
And so that would be anotherthing.
I'd also say there's been alittle more inroad being made in
terms of awareness of thiscommunity.
I happened to pick up a copyjust the other day of Ben
Johnson's new book on Texas andit's got several references to
(05:06):
the Jews in the state which isoh, is that right, I've got it.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I just got it.
I haven't read it.
Well, you know, the index wasthe first thing I looked at.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Yeah, but I was thrilled to see that, as far as
I know, the first Texas historysurvey that includes anything of
substance at all about theJewish community.
So I was really glad, reallygrateful to see that and that's
a sign, I think, that as a fieldit's becoming a little more
familiar and a little moreacknowledged by Texas historians
(05:33):
, which I'm glad for.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Well, that's great.
You know, this popped in myhead.
A question.
I think about this and I always, you know, when we think about
the experiences of so manygroups in here.
When we think about theexperiences of so many groups in
here, I think the perception ofso many people is that Jews,
particularly in the UnitedStates, aren't urban people and
they tend to congregate in urbanareas.
But that's not alwaysnecessarily the case in Texas,
(05:57):
is it?
They also have an experienceoutside the city.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
That's right, that's a good point.
It wasn't true.
It mostly is now.
And today the Jewish populationis probably 90% urban or
suburban.
(06:20):
But at the beginning andthrough really World War II
you're absolutely right it wasdispersed throughout the state.
I think around 1900 it was likemaybe 30 or 40 percent urban
and the rest were scattered,little towns, little communities
all across the state.
I mean literally hundreds oftowns um the, the move to the
suburbs and the move to thecities, of course, since world
war ii is pretty universal, uh,and they've been part of that,
(06:40):
yeah, um, but but yeah, in the19th century and early 20th they
were quite scattered.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And we could even call them a frontier people.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Well, you could.
Somebody should write that theyshould, couldn't they?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You know, one part of this that's very prominent when
you talk about the history ofthe Jewish people in Texas, of
course, is the whole experiencesof the Galveston movement and
Rabbi Cohen that's going on inthat.
So, and I think that's anotherthing it's I mean it's a
significant part of late 19thcentury Texas history.
That is other than a couple ofbooks, and I know I'm in an
(07:19):
article here and there and someof the things that you've come
up with.
It's not discussed that much.
So why don't we also talk alittle bit about that?
Where I was, the GalvestonMovement, sure Sure.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So let me describe what it is first and kind of
talk about ithistoriographically.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I'm going to let you do that instead of me.
I might screw it up, I'll do it.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Starting in 1907, this was an organized effort led
out of New York City to try todivert Jewish immigration that
was coming from Europe at thattime and, of course, enormous
numbers to try to divert it fromNew York to the American West.
The goal was to try to dispersethis flow of immigration away
(08:02):
from the big cities,particularly the Lower East Side
of New York, and to try tospread it more broadly
throughout the United States.
The concern of the movement'sleaders was that the kind of
large urban center of the LowerEast Side was going to give rise
to anti-Semitism.
It was lack of opportunity forthe Jewish immigrants who
(08:23):
arrived there and the hope wasthat they might do better in a
place like.
They selected Galveston as therecipient destination, started
selling the idea to potentialJews in Russia, people who were
planning to come but hadn'tselected a destination yet, and
(08:45):
encouraged them to buy theirticket to Galveston instead of
New York.
If they did, then they would bematched with a job somewhere in
the interior, sent there on thetrain at no cost to them and
sort of connected to the Jewishcommunity in that place that
would look after them, take careof them, get them situated.
And so from 1907 until itstopped in 1914, this brought
(09:06):
about 10,000 Russian Jewsdirectly through Texas to more
than 200 places around theUnited States, but about a
quarter of them stayed in Texasto more than 200 places around
the United States, but about aquarter of them stayed in Texas.
And so they helped to kind ofsupport or augment Jewish
communities in Dallas andHouston and San Antonio,
certainly El Paso, but also bigcommunities in Kansas City and
(09:28):
Minneapolis and Denver, losAngeles got this kind of influx
of Jewish migration that helpedthem build institutions and to
support those communities.
And so it is a Texas, it is apiece of Texas history, no doubt
because Texas was the center ofit.
And Henry Cohen, who youmentioned, who was the rabbi in
Galveston for 60 years, I thinkwas really a focus of the
(09:52):
movement.
He was not really its leader ororganizer, but he was kind of
the main ambassador.
He was the guy who met theships at the dock, welcomed
everybody in, spoke to them inYiddish, which not a lot of
Texans could do and sort ofhelped them navigate through the
customs process.
The immigration process, easedtheir concerns, found them
(10:14):
kosher food and lodging if theyneeded it and sort of took care
of them for the day or two theywere in Galveston.
So it is a very interestingmoment in Texas history and in
American Jewish history.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's a significant moment.
You know there's large areasparticularly, but even things.
For example, marshall in EastTexas.
Significant Jewish populationin Marshall Two mayors.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Two Jewish mayors of Marshall married to each other
but nevertheless and you couldsee something similar in a lot
of towns throughout Texas theGalveston movement put them in
probably 25 or 30 Texascommunities and some of them
stayed.
A lot of them moved on, butTyler got like 80, you know just
these sort of ridiculousnumbers of people coming to
(10:58):
small towns, and so it certainlyhas some impact on those towns.
That is something that, frankly, has not been studied.
The movement from the sort ofground level.
How did this affect towns likeTyler or even Houston?
How did it affect the Jewishcommunities in those towns?
That's research that I'mactually trying to do now.
(11:18):
I haven't made a ton ofprogress, but I'm working on
that.
It's been looked at sort offrom the big level, the national
movement.
It hasn't been looked at as howdid this actually affect
communities and individuals, andthat's something I really would
like to look at.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
When you get it all worked out.
I know a journal, stephen FAustin, that would really love
to have an article.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
That's good to know.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I'm working on it.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
The problem is it's 10,000 people and it's 236
communities.
Yeah, God, just having time todo these things is just yeah.
The granular research on thattakes some time, so I'm working
as many classes as you have todo it.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
you know your day job takes away from doing some of
that right yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I'm curious about is there's probably not a large
Jewish population.
How do you maintain in thosesituations?
How do you maintain your faith?
How do you maintain yourculture?
You know, I guess they couldmaybe have temples in the homes,
(12:17):
meeting in the homes at first.
How do you do it?
Do you join other faiths?
Do you let you know thequestion of you know, reform
Judaism, which is, I've heardsome people say, is very akin to
Protestantism, that a lot ofAmericanisms have joined into
(12:39):
that, and I know that some moreorthodox or conservatives may
not be as agreeable to that intoday's world.
But how did people maintaintheir faith in those days?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, I mean that's a big question and that's
obviously one of the criticalones.
I mean that's a big questionand that's obviously one of the
critical ones.
The first thing that I'd say isthat those who came to Texas,
those who were willing to comehere in the 19th century, when
there were hardly any Jewishinstitutions and a very small
community and no rabbis, maybeone or two and particularly if
(13:11):
they're going to move out tosome little town, they're not
going to have a very significantcommunity those people are not
the most diligent in theirpractice, right.
Those are not the most pious.
The people who come under thosecircumstances are the ones who
are willing to be flexible andwilling to adapt, at least up to
a point.
Right, they're not going toadapt away everything, but
they'll do those things, thoseobservances that they can
(13:34):
maintain within that environment.
Sometimes they would sort oftravel long distances to get to
synagogue, at least once in awhile.
Sometimes they would orderkosher food if that was
important to them and bring ithome.
But for the most part they just, in those kinds of
circumstances, just had to adapt.
(13:54):
You know, adapt had to do whatthey could.
One of I think the most partthey just in those kinds of
circumstances, just had to adapt.
You know, adapt had to do whatthey could.
One of, I think, the mostimportant narratives here,
though one of the most importantstories, is how effectively
they did that even under thosecircumstances that sense of
Jewish identity was not lost, atleast by a critical number of
them.
In bigger cities obviously it'seasier, and once larger numbers
of immigrants start to come init does get more complex.
(14:18):
But not really until after 1900or so around 1900, was there a
significant Orthodox community.
The early immigrants who came,or migrants who came, were
predominantly Reformed, which,as you say, was the group that
is somewhat more, I guess,progressive maybe is a word or
reformist adaptable less rigidin sort of their understanding
(14:43):
of their observance them wereliterally right off the boat
from Russia and were much moretraditional in their views and
they were going to have to findcommunities that would support
(15:04):
that.
Often they did, as you said,practice in their own homes If
there wasn't a synagogue.
The Riskin family who I'vewritten about recently ran a
sort of, I guess, an informalkind of temple worship space
above the store in theirapartment in downtown Eagle Pass
and brought in a Torah, thescroll, to worship with and held
(15:27):
services there regularly thatthey led themselves and that was
a pretty typical experience.
That was in the 1950s and 60s,but that kind of thing went on
all the way back.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
They would do what they could given their
circumstances.
Yeah, in this, this wholeexperience, whole experience, is
uh something, something you'vewritten about.
I'm gonna kind of ask you knowyou might think we can go ahead,
it's kind of my segue before weget into this.
You've written about how Jewishimmigrants fit in to a dominant
Anglo society in Texas.
You know, in finding that place, that they could fit in.
(16:05):
Give us kind of a glimpse atwhat you found about how that
worked and what some of thedevelopment Sure.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Well, it opens a very complicated thing, because
Jewish racial identity isextremely complex and difficult
to define.
There are Jews who are membersof virtually every racial group
that we would recognize on theplanet.
There are Black Jews, latinoJews, asian Jews, you know, but
here in the United States, andparticularly in Texas, the
(16:33):
majority are Ashkenazic, meaningof European background, and so
they're white right, or at leastas Texans understand what white
means.
You know, jews are white Right,but Judaism is, of course, not
a race unto itself.
It's, it's a religion andtherefore it can, at least
(16:56):
primarily it is, and so there'san element of choice, of, of
selection.
A person can choose theirdegree of observance, or can
choose to convert in or convertout, which are generally not
thought to be true of raceracial groups.
And so it's a race but it's nota race.
It's kind of like a race butit's kind of not like a race.
(17:17):
And so, placed within thisframework of Texas history and
Texas society, they tend to fallinto the Anglo category, just
because Texas historians,unfortunately, have not
permitted very many categories,right, you're basically, you're
white or Anglo, you're Hispanic,you're Mexican, or you're Black
or you're Native, and therearen't really a lot of ways to
(17:40):
fit into the interstices betweenthose.
And Jews really are in themiddle sort of among those.
They're white but not quite.
As it's often said, white butnot white the same way that
other Anglo groups are.
There's always a difference,there's always an awareness that
(18:00):
we're in that group but not inthat group.
And so, on the one hand, beingwhite of course gave them, in a
place like Texas, tremendousadvantage, tremendous privilege.
They were white in a segregatedlike Texas tremendous advantage
, tremendous privilege.
They were white in a segregatedsociety for much of the 20th
(18:21):
century and that certainly gavethem advantage over being black
or Latino.
But at the same time, withinwhite society they tend not to
fit as well, you know, ascomfortably as they might wish.
And so trying to sort ofnavigate those lines, to be in a
group but not in the group atthe same time, or of a group and
not of it at the same, time waskind of always the difficulty.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
It brings up something you know cause it
probably in Texas, but of coursenationwide also.
When you talk about the Jewishexperience and this whole idea
of you, know where do you go inthe society.
The civil rights movement,brian kind of, was a watershed
event for jews to some extent,because it was almost like, okay
, we've had this white and I maybe getting a little wrong white
(19:03):
privilege to some extent, butnow we identify more with the
oppressed in this situation,because there were so many jews
that were prominent leaders inthe civil rights movement.
Did that go on in in Texas?
How much tech did that?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
happen.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Before you get to that, let me ask another
question which I think probablyneeds to be addressed first.
So you're saying that most areAshkenazi, but were there
Hasidic that came in at all?
We don't see that very often,except in more modern times.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
More recently.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not aware ofany Hasidic communities.
I mean Orthodox communities,meaning more traditionally
minded, but not Hasidic, whichis a particular sect.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And which is mostly Russian, and they themselves in
the 1870s had experiencedpogroms and other things in
europe.
So I mean we unfortunately inour history have a long there's
a long story of anti-semitismthat traces back thousands of
(20:10):
years.
So you know sc Scott's questionabout how Jewish people in the
civil rights movement, I mean inSouthern history, there is a
rich tradition where Jewishgroups often sided with civil
rights organizations.
However, there were some thatdid not.
(20:32):
So now I guess I wanted to getthat out there and throw that
into the mix before you answerthe question.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Okay, very good, it's all a little, I think, a little
more nuanced than we're able toget here, because I mean, yes,
there were Jews in the South andnationally who did certainly
advocate on behalf of civilrights.
When we think about Jewishinvolvement in civil rights in
the South, though, we're usuallythinking of people who came
from the North, activists whocame down during Freedom Summer,
(21:05):
or attorneys who came down andworked in legal practice to
defend civil rights.
The local Southern Jewishcommunities were, maybe
understandably, but a littlewary, to say the least, of sort
of getting out in front of thatissue.
There were, as I'm sure youknow, there were many acts of
violence against Jewishinstitutions throughout the
(21:27):
South.
The synagogue in Atlanta wasblown up, jewish community
center in Nashville was blown up.
There were bombings here andthere all through the era, and
that had the intended effect ofgetting Jewish communities whose
synagogues, those, were to be alittle reluctant to put a
target on themselves, and so,whatever their personal views
(21:49):
might have been, which, I dothink, leaned certainly in favor
of civil rights, but they werenot usually among the activists,
at least those who were locatedin the South, and that's true
in Texas, there were certainlysympathizers of civil rights,
and some very vocally, but byand large the Jewish community
tended to be under the radar,whatever their views might have
(22:14):
been.
I think an important elementthere too to remember is that
because of, again, the economicniche that they were in, where
Jews tended to be store owners,shopkeepers, department store
owners, they were the ones doingthe segregating.
To a great degree right, it wastheir businesses where
segregation occurred and thatput them in a very difficult
(22:34):
position because they couldn'treally go against the tide of
public opinion if they wanted tosurvive and they couldn't break
the law if they wanted tosurvive.
But at the same time that couldnot have been comfortable for
people who are aware that theyalso have a difference and that
in a society where difference ismistreated, you don't want to
(22:56):
be on the on the downside ofthat, on the opposite side of
that, and so it makes.
The civil rights era was anextremely fraught one, you know,
for everybody, but but in thiskind of particular way, I think,
for the Jewish community yeah,they had to.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
There was a thin line that you had to traverse there.
Well, you and I we gave alittle.
We gave a little humorous nod,of course, in our discussion
earlier, but I want to go backto it to some extent, because
you're the author of a veryimportant book, I think, in
Texas history, one that you'regoing to pick up and start
reading about Jews in Texas.
I always tell everybody this isthe first one to pick up to
(23:30):
give you some insight.
It's, the title is the ChosenFolks.
Jews on the Frontiers of TexasCome up from the University of
Texas Press and in the book andthis is what always brings up to
me and, being somewhat of aWestern historian, it always
hits me this way you call Jews aquintessential frontier people
and I think that's just utterlyfascinating.
(23:51):
Why do you say so?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Give our listeners some reason why you say that
when I started trying to writethis book and it was my graduate
, my dissertation in grad school, that became a book and I was
trying to sort of figure out howto explain a lot of what we've
been talking about, about howJews kind of place themselves
within this matrix of othergroups and of Texas society, and
I found the frontier kind of auseful metaphor, I guess, or a
(24:18):
frame of reference, not so muchthe way that of course, it used
to be used, that, frederickJackson Turner, this is a line
with civilization on one sideand you know, not that, but the
kind of new Western historianway, which was pretty new
actually at the time.
I was doing this work ofthinking of it more as sort of a
conceptual space.
That's like the place thatcontains the differences between
(24:41):
the groups on either side.
And so the frontier is theplace where there's one kind of
people on one side and anotherkind of people on the other side
and they're interacting orcompeting or confronting each
other.
And they're interacting orcompeting or confronting each
other and, as I thought aboutthat, I sort of realizing Jews
are in that sense always amongthese groups of others.
They're navigating thesefrontiers all around them,
(25:03):
everywhere, almost everywherethey've ever lived, they've been
a minority.
I think this is true.
They've been a minority groupin more places than probably
anyone else who's ever lived,and so that experience of having
to interact with a majorityculture and define yourself in
contrast to that majorityculture, is in a way kind of a
very distinctively Jewishexperience.
(25:24):
And that's the frontierexperience.
And so I sort of realized, inthis sense they're like on a
frontier, and I found all kindsof ways throughout the book to
kind of extend that metaphor toa lot of the experiences they
had later, the historicalexperiences, to realize this is
a case of navigating thatcontrast or understanding that
difference.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So that's kind of what I meant by that and, like I
said, it's outstanding folks.
Thank you for that I appreciatethat and you've got a book
that's just come out, a uniquework that you just edited.
On your latest book it's I.
You know.
It's one of those fascinatingand valuable historical studies
that are hard to do, where youtake someone else's work that
(26:06):
they did at their during theircontemporary time to some extent
, and then you edit it and offeranalysis of it.
The title it's it's a.
It's a journal that you took upthat was kept by Morris Riskin,
an Eagle Pass merchant right.
It's titled Neither Fish NorFowl, a Mercantile Jewish Family
on the Rio Grande, and, ofcourse, eagle Pass.
We don't think about Jews inEagle Pass, do we?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
No, no, nobody does.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So give us an overview and an insight into
that work and how you came aboutit and all the not-appropriate
things about a new club.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Sure, well, I mean very fortunately, this one was
brought to me.
It was published by the TexasTech University Press and they
received the manuscript andwanted to publish it, but it
needed editorial work.
It was in pretty good shape,but it just needed academic
paraphernalia and all of that,and so they were looking for
somebody to do it, and I haddone a similar book a few years
(26:58):
before.
This is actually the secondmemoir that I've edited, and so
I was thrilled to be invited in,because the book is amazing.
It was written by Morris Riskin, r-i-s-k-i-n-d, who was born in
Eagle Pass in 1911.
This is a little town on theTexas border, of course, with
Mexico, and his parents, whowere both immigrants from Russia
(27:21):
, had arrived in Eagle Pass byway of Chicago.
You know, as one does thedirect train from Chicago to
Eagle Pass.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
The cultural shock picture I can't even imagine.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Morris's dad started the department store clothing
store, the cultural shockpicture 50s and 60s and 70s.
And he writes about beingJewish in this sort of
unexpected place and how theymaintain their practice and
identity with a very smallnumber of other Jews in the area
, connecting with othercommunities in Del Rio and
(28:06):
McAllen and Brownsville and sortof trying to kind of hold the
community together on the border.
And it's a really it's his lifestory, it's Morris's life
pretty much beginning to end,but it's got so much detail in
it about what it's like to justlive in this particular
environment, not just as Jewish,but what Eagle Pass was like in
the teens and 20s and 30s andduring the war and it's, I think
(28:30):
, really interesting from thatstandpoint.
But of course it is about aJewish community sort of holding
it together under difficultcircumstances, how they connect
with the non-Jewish community,which is of course a much larger
community, and also the store,the history of the business and
what it was to sort of run adowntown department store, how
(28:50):
they acquire merchandise, howthey make selections about what
to carry, relations withemployees and clientele who come
up from Mexico to either workfor them or shop with them and
sort of treating this as ahistory of a border business,
and so it's very interestingfrom that standpoint as well.
It's a good border history.
(29:12):
My role was to basically takeMorris's manuscript that his son
, peter Riskind, had kind ofworked up into something
publishable and just kind of thenarrative needed some tweaking,
it needed a little cutting andpasting, but mostly to write an
introduction, write footnotes,try to explain what all these
things are.
Morris was an extremelyknowledgeable guy for living
(29:35):
where he lived.
He was extremely well-read andextremely worldly, traveled a
lot, lived in Los Angeles for 16years, was a lawyer and had a
very sophisticated outlook onthings, and so some of what he
throws into the text has to bekind of explained.
He drops these references andit's like you know what is he
(29:56):
talking about.
So I wrote a lot of footnotessort of explaining every
reference and person and theTexas history that he refers to,
and that was a big part of whatmy role was.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah, you did a good job.
It's very well cited and notedabout this that you get a good
sense on that.
You know, it's kind of anamazing thing.
I mean, when you say we comeinto Eagle Pass, I mean there
couldn't have been that manyJews in Eagle Pass other than
the Ritzan on this, but theacceptance there seemed to be.
(30:34):
They didn't.
You know, looking at the book,then you look at this, there
doesn't seem to be a whole lotof lack of acceptance amongst
people in Eagle Patch of theRitz Because in fact they were
considered very prominentmembers of the community.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
That's true, the population there, the Jewish
population, was never more than60.
60 people at its peak, and thatwas around World War Two, when
there were soldiers stationedthere from around the country,
some of whom were Jewish, whichaugmented the number, but there
were only three or four familiesthat were there for more than a
few years.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So it was a very small community, so so.
So go ahead.
How?
How, when you're, when you'vegot a community that small and
you're kind of isolated, how dowe marry?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Oh boy, there's.
That's a great.
There's a great story in thebook.
Morris's parents were marriedbefore they got here, as were
most of the other Jewishfamilies.
They married wherever they camefrom.
Morris met his wife during theyears he was living in Los
Angeles and she was born andraised there.
He went to college and lawschool in LA high school and
college and law school and hemet her in Los Angeles and then,
(31:49):
after he moved back to EaglePass, he started writing her
letters trying to sort of youknow woo her long distance and
she bought it.
I mean, he somehow convincedher leave Los Angeles, marry me,
move to Eagle Pass.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I'd like to have been the person looking at her face
when she got off the train inEagle.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Pass, or what a hero he must have been, I mean like
the seducer of all time, I don'tknow.
But he persuaded her and theymarried and she moved to Eagle
Pass and she lived there herwhole life.
She learned Spanish and fitinto the community there, and so
his children.
(32:28):
They raised four kids.
He and his wife Ruth raisedfour kids in Eagle Pass and I
think they all married peoplethey met at school.
They all went out of state tocollege, and so I assume that's
where their spouses came from.
But it was always, of course, aconcern, and not just in Eagle
Pass.
I mean, we were talking aboutall the little Texas communities
(32:49):
.
A lot of them had to travel tofind spouses.
They'd take a trip up northsomewhere and come back with a
wife.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that went on quite often, you
know, yeah Well, all thefascinating folks.
It's that the latest book,neither fishing or foul, a
mercantile Jewish family on thereal grant.
You don't have it yet.
Pick it up Texas tech press.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
John Brock, if you're listening, I'm selling books
for you, that's right.
I want a commission, john.
I want a commission.
So, brian, we ask people aquestion, we ask everybody this
as Brian Stone.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
What do you know try to get across to students about
history and teaching andeducation is that history is not
a subject of study.
History is our lives, that welive in it, that everyone
experiences it, everyone is aparticipant and a creator of
(33:48):
history, that it's not a subjectisolated from our experience,
but it is our experience andtherefore it, hopefully, is
something that they can connectto on a more personal level,
rather than just memorize thesenames or memorize the names of
these battles or whatever, butto realize that it's a living
thing that sort of surroundsthem.
(34:09):
And that's certainly true now,I mean, we are in the middle of
it.
I think we're experiencing alot more history than we would
like, and I think to understandthe subject that way helps make
it more meaningful and morerelevant and also, I think,
helps, hopefully, peopleunderstand what's happening to
them.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, that's you know what.
That's much more profound thanI could come up with.
So I think that's great.
I didn't know that's much moreprofound than.
I could come up with, so Ithink that's great.
Ron, thank you so much forcoming back and doing this.
This is this has been great.
It's a great, one of our greatpodcasts.
I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
So thank you all very much.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbeck and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Scott, we have a new showplanned for everyone.
We've been on a little bit of ahiatus here.
You've been on sabbatical andI've been sick with some
(01:00):
respiratory problems, actuallysince about December of 2024.
Gotten better, gotten worse,gotten better, gotten worse,
gotten better.
So we're ready to get startedwith some new shows and, scott,
I'm going to let you introducethis one.
Okay, why don't you introduceour special guest today?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, gene, we have with us today Brian Stone.
He's at Delmore College,correct, brian?
That's correct.
So, just as we do with all ofour guests, brian, how about you
just get us started?
Tell us about yourself, yourbackground, your education, your
current position, all that goodbio stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Sure, sure.
My name is Brian Edward Stone.
I am a professor of history atDel Mar College, which is the
two-year community college inCorpus Christi.
I have been here now for 21years.
Wow, I have to remind myself.
I know I have to go back andcount it up on my abacus,
otherwise I forget.
But yeah, 21 years Before thatI did a five-year stint at a
(01:52):
community college in Montana andI was doing my grad work in
Austin before that, at UT.
So I have a doctorate inAmerican Studies from University
of Texas and Native Texangenerations.
Where'd you grow up, Brian?
Dallas Grew up in Dallas,Although I was born in Houston.
Grew up in Dallas.
Sometimes say I grew up inAustin because that's where
(02:13):
college is.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
There, you go.
We all grew up when we were incollege, right?
Yeah, you know, that's one ofthose things we Texans know.
You know, if you're living inDallas, you don't want to tell
people you're from Houston andvice versa, because they'll make
fun of you, Right.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, that's true, I never.
I never had that problem I love.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I love how my friends Jean one of them that are from
Houston they call Dallas NorthOklahoma or South Oklahoma.
Yeah, which, which you know,and so I just tell my that's
West Louisiana.
He doesn't call you a Yankee,does he Sometimes?
Gene's from New Braunfels.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Uh-huh, yeah Well.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Brian, you're unique for being on here.
No-transcript in the Lone StarState.
Although it's actually veryvibrant and very varied, it's
(03:11):
not exactly the first thing thatcomes to mind for many people
when they think of Texas and itshistory.
And with all that in mind, whydon't you give our listeners a
few things that you think theyshould know?
If you said you, our listenersa few things that you think they
should know, if you said no, wehad a great Paul Carlson junior
in mind, mentor at Texas Tech.
Every time we were in class andhe was testing, he would say
give me three things that I needto know about.
(03:33):
So how, about three things thatwe need?
to know about Jews in Texas.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Good, I'm going to give you a fourth unrequested.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That's even better.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
There are other scholars of Texas Jewish history
and I don't want to take all ofthe credit.
There's a sort of small cadreof us doing a lot of really good
work, including some gradstudents who deserve not to be
overlooked.
But as far as sort of what Iwould summarize it, I would
point out that there has been aJewish population in Texas since
there was Texas.
(04:02):
It's been here the entire time,1836 and beyond.
It's a very small community.
It always has been Best.
Statistics put it at roughlyabout half a percent of the
Texas population, One half of 1%, 0.6% roughly, which is very
(04:23):
small.
But it's had, I guess I'd sayan outsized influence that
because of where Jewish Texanskind of placed themselves, this
kind of economic niche that theyfound, they tended to be far
more visible than their numberswould kind of suggest.
They were running Main Streetstores, they were running
well-known businesses, they wereNeiman Marcus, they were Sanger
(04:43):
Brothers, and it gave them kindof a visibility above and
beyond what they ordinarilywould have had with such a small
population.
And so that would be anotherthing.
I'd also say there's been alittle more inroad being made in
terms of awareness of thiscommunity.
I happened to pick up a copyjust the other day of Ben
Johnson's new book on Texas andit's got several references to
(05:06):
the Jews in the state which isoh, is that right, I've got it.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I just got it.
I haven't read it.
Well, you know, the index wasthe first thing I looked at.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Yeah, but I was thrilled to see that, as far as
I know, the first Texas historysurvey that includes anything of
substance at all about theJewish community.
So I was really glad, reallygrateful to see that and that's
a sign, I think, that as a fieldit's becoming a little more
familiar and a little moreacknowledged by Texas historians
(05:33):
, which I'm glad for.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Well, that's great.
You know, this popped in myhead.
A question.
I think about this and I always, you know, when we think about
the experiences of so manygroups in here.
When we think about theexperiences of so many groups in
here, I think the perception ofso many people is that Jews,
particularly in the UnitedStates, aren't urban people and
they tend to congregate in urbanareas.
But that's not alwaysnecessarily the case in Texas,
(05:57):
is it?
They also have an experienceoutside the city.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
That's right, that's a good point.
It wasn't true.
It mostly is now.
And today the Jewish populationis probably 90% urban or
suburban.
(06:20):
But at the beginning andthrough really World War II
you're absolutely right it wasdispersed throughout the state.
I think around 1900 it was likemaybe 30 or 40 percent urban
and the rest were scattered,little towns, little communities
all across the state.
I mean literally hundreds oftowns um the, the move to the
suburbs and the move to thecities, of course, since world
war ii is pretty universal, uh,and they've been part of that,
(06:40):
yeah, um, but but yeah, in the19th century and early 20th they
were quite scattered.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And we could even call them a frontier people.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Well, you could.
Somebody should write that theyshould, couldn't they?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You know, one part of this that's very prominent when
you talk about the history ofthe Jewish people in Texas, of
course, is the whole experiencesof the Galveston movement and
Rabbi Cohen that's going on inthat.
So, and I think that's anotherthing it's I mean it's a
significant part of late 19thcentury Texas history.
That is other than a couple ofbooks, and I know I'm in an
(07:19):
article here and there and someof the things that you've come
up with.
It's not discussed that much.
So why don't we also talk alittle bit about that?
Where I was, the GalvestonMovement, sure Sure.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So let me describe what it is first and kind of
talk about ithistoriographically.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I'm going to let you do that instead of me.
I might screw it up, I'll do it.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Starting in 1907, this was an organized effort led
out of New York City to try todivert Jewish immigration that
was coming from Europe at thattime and, of course, enormous
numbers to try to divert it fromNew York to the American West.
The goal was to try to dispersethis flow of immigration away
(08:02):
from the big cities,particularly the Lower East Side
of New York, and to try tospread it more broadly
throughout the United States.
The concern of the movement'sleaders was that the kind of
large urban center of the LowerEast Side was going to give rise
to anti-Semitism.
It was lack of opportunity forthe Jewish immigrants who
(08:23):
arrived there and the hope wasthat they might do better in a
place like.
They selected Galveston as therecipient destination, started
selling the idea to potentialJews in Russia, people who were
planning to come but hadn'tselected a destination yet, and
(08:45):
encouraged them to buy theirticket to Galveston instead of
New York.
If they did, then they would bematched with a job somewhere in
the interior, sent there on thetrain at no cost to them and
sort of connected to the Jewishcommunity in that place that
would look after them, take careof them, get them situated.
And so from 1907 until itstopped in 1914, this brought
(09:06):
about 10,000 Russian Jewsdirectly through Texas to more
than 200 places around theUnited States, but about a
quarter of them stayed in Texasto more than 200 places around
the United States, but about aquarter of them stayed in Texas.
And so they helped to kind ofsupport or augment Jewish
communities in Dallas andHouston and San Antonio,
certainly El Paso, but also bigcommunities in Kansas City and
(09:28):
Minneapolis and Denver, losAngeles got this kind of influx
of Jewish migration that helpedthem build institutions and to
support those communities.
And so it is a Texas, it is apiece of Texas history, no doubt
because Texas was the center ofit.
And Henry Cohen, who youmentioned, who was the rabbi in
Galveston for 60 years, I thinkwas really a focus of the
(09:52):
movement.
He was not really its leader ororganizer, but he was kind of
the main ambassador.
He was the guy who met theships at the dock, welcomed
everybody in, spoke to them inYiddish, which not a lot of
Texans could do and sort ofhelped them navigate through the
customs process.
The immigration process, easedtheir concerns, found them
(10:14):
kosher food and lodging if theyneeded it and sort of took care
of them for the day or two theywere in Galveston.
So it is a very interestingmoment in Texas history and in
American Jewish history.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's a significant moment.
You know there's large areasparticularly, but even things.
For example, marshall in EastTexas.
Significant Jewish populationin Marshall Two mayors.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Two Jewish mayors of Marshall married to each other
but nevertheless and you couldsee something similar in a lot
of towns throughout Texas theGalveston movement put them in
probably 25 or 30 Texascommunities and some of them
stayed.
A lot of them moved on, butTyler got like 80, you know just
these sort of ridiculousnumbers of people coming to
(10:58):
small towns, and so it certainlyhas some impact on those towns.
That is something that, frankly, has not been studied.
The movement from the sort ofground level.
How did this affect towns likeTyler or even Houston?
How did it affect the Jewishcommunities in those towns?
That's research that I'mactually trying to do now.
(11:18):
I haven't made a ton ofprogress, but I'm working on
that.
It's been looked at sort offrom the big level, the national
movement.
It hasn't been looked at as howdid this actually affect
communities and individuals, andthat's something I really would
like to look at.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
When you get it all worked out.
I know a journal, stephen FAustin, that would really love
to have an article.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
That's good to know.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I'm working on it.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
The problem is it's 10,000 people and it's 236
communities.
Yeah, God, just having time todo these things is just yeah.
The granular research on thattakes some time, so I'm working
as many classes as you have todo it.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
you know your day job takes away from doing some of
that right yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I'm curious about is there's probably not a large
Jewish population.
How do you maintain in thosesituations?
How do you maintain your faith?
How do you maintain yourculture?
You know, I guess they couldmaybe have temples in the homes,
(12:17):
meeting in the homes at first.
How do you do it?
Do you join other faiths?
Do you let you know thequestion of you know, reform
Judaism, which is, I've heardsome people say, is very akin to
Protestantism, that a lot ofAmericanisms have joined into
(12:39):
that, and I know that some moreorthodox or conservatives may
not be as agreeable to that intoday's world.
But how did people maintaintheir faith in those days?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, I mean that's a big question and that's
obviously one of the criticalones.
I mean that's a big questionand that's obviously one of the
critical ones.
The first thing that I'd say isthat those who came to Texas,
those who were willing to comehere in the 19th century, when
there were hardly any Jewishinstitutions and a very small
community and no rabbis, maybeone or two and particularly if
(13:11):
they're going to move out tosome little town, they're not
going to have a very significantcommunity those people are not
the most diligent in theirpractice, right.
Those are not the most pious.
The people who come under thosecircumstances are the ones who
are willing to be flexible andwilling to adapt, at least up to
a point.
Right, they're not going toadapt away everything, but
they'll do those things, thoseobservances that they can
(13:34):
maintain within that environment.
Sometimes they would sort oftravel long distances to get to
synagogue, at least once in awhile.
Sometimes they would orderkosher food if that was
important to them and bring ithome.
But for the most part they just, in those kinds of
circumstances, just had to adapt.
(13:54):
You know, adapt had to do whatthey could.
One of I think the most partthey just in those kinds of
circumstances, just had to adapt.
You know, adapt had to do whatthey could.
One of, I think, the mostimportant narratives here,
though one of the most importantstories, is how effectively
they did that even under thosecircumstances that sense of
Jewish identity was not lost, atleast by a critical number of
them.
In bigger cities obviously it'seasier, and once larger numbers
of immigrants start to come init does get more complex.
(14:18):
But not really until after 1900or so around 1900, was there a
significant Orthodox community.
The early immigrants who came,or migrants who came, were
predominantly Reformed, which,as you say, was the group that
is somewhat more, I guess,progressive maybe is a word or
reformist adaptable less rigidin sort of their understanding
(14:43):
of their observance them wereliterally right off the boat
from Russia and were much moretraditional in their views and
they were going to have to findcommunities that would support
(15:04):
that.
Often they did, as you said,practice in their own homes If
there wasn't a synagogue.
The Riskin family who I'vewritten about recently ran a
sort of, I guess, an informalkind of temple worship space
above the store in theirapartment in downtown Eagle Pass
and brought in a Torah, thescroll, to worship with and held
(15:27):
services there regularly thatthey led themselves and that was
a pretty typical experience.
That was in the 1950s and 60s,but that kind of thing went on
all the way back.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
They would do what they could given their
circumstances.
Yeah, in this, this wholeexperience, whole experience, is
uh something, something you'vewritten about.
I'm gonna kind of ask you knowyou might think we can go ahead,
it's kind of my segue before weget into this.
You've written about how Jewishimmigrants fit in to a dominant
Anglo society in Texas.
You know, in finding that place, that they could fit in.
(16:05):
Give us kind of a glimpse atwhat you found about how that
worked and what some of thedevelopment Sure.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Well, it opens a very complicated thing, because
Jewish racial identity isextremely complex and difficult
to define.
There are Jews who are membersof virtually every racial group
that we would recognize on theplanet.
There are Black Jews, latinoJews, asian Jews, you know, but
here in the United States, andparticularly in Texas, the
(16:33):
majority are Ashkenazic, meaningof European background, and so
they're white right, or at leastas Texans understand what white
means.
You know, jews are white Right,but Judaism is, of course, not
a race unto itself.
It's, it's a religion andtherefore it can, at least
(16:56):
primarily it is, and so there'san element of choice, of, of
selection.
A person can choose theirdegree of observance, or can
choose to convert in or convertout, which are generally not
thought to be true of raceracial groups.
And so it's a race but it's nota race.
It's kind of like a race butit's kind of not like a race.
(17:17):
And so, placed within thisframework of Texas history and
Texas society, they tend to fallinto the Anglo category, just
because Texas historians,unfortunately, have not
permitted very many categories,right, you're basically, you're
white or Anglo, you're Hispanic,you're Mexican, or you're Black
or you're Native, and therearen't really a lot of ways to
(17:40):
fit into the interstices betweenthose.
And Jews really are in themiddle sort of among those.
They're white but not quite.
As it's often said, white butnot white the same way that
other Anglo groups are.
There's always a difference,there's always an awareness that
(18:00):
we're in that group but not inthat group.
And so, on the one hand, beingwhite of course gave them, in a
place like Texas, tremendousadvantage, tremendous privilege.
They were white in a segregatedlike Texas tremendous advantage
, tremendous privilege.
They were white in a segregatedsociety for much of the 20th
(18:21):
century and that certainly gavethem advantage over being black
or Latino.
But at the same time, withinwhite society they tend not to
fit as well, you know, ascomfortably as they might wish.
And so trying to sort ofnavigate those lines, to be in a
group but not in the group atthe same time, or of a group and
not of it at the same, time waskind of always the difficulty.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
It brings up something you know cause it
probably in Texas, but of coursenationwide also.
When you talk about the Jewishexperience and this whole idea
of you, know where do you go inthe society.
The civil rights movement,brian kind of, was a watershed
event for jews to some extent,because it was almost like, okay
, we've had this white and I maybe getting a little wrong white
(19:03):
privilege to some extent, butnow we identify more with the
oppressed in this situation,because there were so many jews
that were prominent leaders inthe civil rights movement.
Did that go on in in Texas?
How much tech did that?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
happen.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Before you get to that, let me ask another
question which I think probablyneeds to be addressed first.
So you're saying that most areAshkenazi, but were there
Hasidic that came in at all?
We don't see that very often,except in more modern times.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
More recently.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not aware ofany Hasidic communities.
I mean Orthodox communities,meaning more traditionally
minded, but not Hasidic, whichis a particular sect.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And which is mostly Russian, and they themselves in
the 1870s had experiencedpogroms and other things in
europe.
So I mean we unfortunately inour history have a long there's
a long story of anti-semitismthat traces back thousands of
(20:10):
years.
So you know sc Scott's questionabout how Jewish people in the
civil rights movement, I mean inSouthern history, there is a
rich tradition where Jewishgroups often sided with civil
rights organizations.
However, there were some thatdid not.
(20:32):
So now I guess I wanted to getthat out there and throw that
into the mix before you answerthe question.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Okay, very good, it's all a little, I think, a little
more nuanced than we're able toget here, because I mean, yes,
there were Jews in the South andnationally who did certainly
advocate on behalf of civilrights.
When we think about Jewishinvolvement in civil rights in
the South, though, we're usuallythinking of people who came
from the North, activists whocame down during Freedom Summer,
(21:05):
or attorneys who came down andworked in legal practice to
defend civil rights.
The local Southern Jewishcommunities were, maybe
understandably, but a littlewary, to say the least, of sort
of getting out in front of thatissue.
There were, as I'm sure youknow, there were many acts of
violence against Jewishinstitutions throughout the
(21:27):
South.
The synagogue in Atlanta wasblown up, jewish community
center in Nashville was blown up.
There were bombings here andthere all through the era, and
that had the intended effect ofgetting Jewish communities whose
synagogues, those, were to be alittle reluctant to put a
target on themselves, and so,whatever their personal views
(21:49):
might have been, which, I dothink, leaned certainly in favor
of civil rights, but they werenot usually among the activists,
at least those who were locatedin the South, and that's true
in Texas, there were certainlysympathizers of civil rights,
and some very vocally, but byand large the Jewish community
tended to be under the radar,whatever their views might have
(22:14):
been.
I think an important elementthere too to remember is that
because of, again, the economicniche that they were in, where
Jews tended to be store owners,shopkeepers, department store
owners, they were the ones doingthe segregating.
To a great degree right, it wastheir businesses where
segregation occurred and thatput them in a very difficult
(22:34):
position because they couldn'treally go against the tide of
public opinion if they wanted tosurvive and they couldn't break
the law if they wanted tosurvive.
But at the same time that couldnot have been comfortable for
people who are aware that theyalso have a difference and that
in a society where difference ismistreated, you don't want to
(22:56):
be on the on the downside ofthat, on the opposite side of
that, and so it makes.
The civil rights era was anextremely fraught one, you know,
for everybody, but but in thiskind of particular way, I think,
for the Jewish community yeah,they had to.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
There was a thin line that you had to traverse there.
Well, you and I we gave alittle.
We gave a little humorous nod,of course, in our discussion
earlier, but I want to go backto it to some extent, because
you're the author of a veryimportant book, I think, in
Texas history, one that you'regoing to pick up and start
reading about Jews in Texas.
I always tell everybody this isthe first one to pick up to
(23:30):
give you some insight.
It's, the title is the ChosenFolks.
Jews on the Frontiers of TexasCome up from the University of
Texas Press and in the book andthis is what always brings up to
me and, being somewhat of aWestern historian, it always
hits me this way you call Jews aquintessential frontier people
and I think that's just utterlyfascinating.
(23:51):
Why do you say so?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Give our listeners some reason why you say that
when I started trying to writethis book and it was my graduate
, my dissertation in grad school, that became a book and I was
trying to sort of figure out howto explain a lot of what we've
been talking about, about howJews kind of place themselves
within this matrix of othergroups and of Texas society, and
I found the frontier kind of auseful metaphor, I guess, or a
(24:18):
frame of reference, not so muchthe way that of course, it used
to be used, that, frederickJackson Turner, this is a line
with civilization on one sideand you know, not that, but the
kind of new Western historianway, which was pretty new
actually at the time.
I was doing this work ofthinking of it more as sort of a
conceptual space.
That's like the place thatcontains the differences between
(24:41):
the groups on either side.
And so the frontier is theplace where there's one kind of
people on one side and anotherkind of people on the other side
and they're interacting orcompeting or confronting each
other.
And they're interacting orcompeting or confronting each
other and, as I thought aboutthat, I sort of realizing Jews
are in that sense always amongthese groups of others.
They're navigating thesefrontiers all around them,
(25:03):
everywhere, almost everywherethey've ever lived, they've been
a minority.
I think this is true.
They've been a minority groupin more places than probably
anyone else who's ever lived,and so that experience of having
to interact with a majorityculture and define yourself in
contrast to that majorityculture, is in a way kind of a
very distinctively Jewishexperience.
(25:24):
And that's the frontierexperience.
And so I sort of realized, inthis sense they're like on a
frontier, and I found all kindsof ways throughout the book to
kind of extend that metaphor toa lot of the experiences they
had later, the historicalexperiences, to realize this is
a case of navigating thatcontrast or understanding that
difference.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So that's kind of what I meant by that and, like I
said, it's outstanding folks.
Thank you for that I appreciatethat and you've got a book
that's just come out, a uniquework that you just edited.
On your latest book it's I.
You know.
It's one of those fascinatingand valuable historical studies
that are hard to do, where youtake someone else's work that
(26:06):
they did at their during theircontemporary time to some extent
, and then you edit it and offeranalysis of it.
The title it's it's a.
It's a journal that you took upthat was kept by Morris Riskin,
an Eagle Pass merchant right.
It's titled Neither Fish NorFowl, a Mercantile Jewish Family
on the Rio Grande, and, ofcourse, eagle Pass.
We don't think about Jews inEagle Pass, do we?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
No, no, nobody does.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So give us an overview and an insight into
that work and how you came aboutit and all the not-appropriate
things about a new club.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Sure, well, I mean very fortunately, this one was
brought to me.
It was published by the TexasTech University Press and they
received the manuscript andwanted to publish it, but it
needed editorial work.
It was in pretty good shape,but it just needed academic
paraphernalia and all of that,and so they were looking for
somebody to do it, and I haddone a similar book a few years
(26:58):
before.
This is actually the secondmemoir that I've edited, and so
I was thrilled to be invited in,because the book is amazing.
It was written by Morris Riskin, r-i-s-k-i-n-d, who was born in
Eagle Pass in 1911.
This is a little town on theTexas border, of course, with
Mexico, and his parents, whowere both immigrants from Russia
(27:21):
, had arrived in Eagle Pass byway of Chicago.
You know, as one does thedirect train from Chicago to
Eagle Pass.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
The cultural shock picture I can't even imagine.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Morris's dad started the department store clothing
store, the cultural shockpicture 50s and 60s and 70s.
And he writes about beingJewish in this sort of
unexpected place and how theymaintain their practice and
identity with a very smallnumber of other Jews in the area
, connecting with othercommunities in Del Rio and
(28:06):
McAllen and Brownsville and sortof trying to kind of hold the
community together on the border.
And it's a really it's his lifestory, it's Morris's life
pretty much beginning to end,but it's got so much detail in
it about what it's like to justlive in this particular
environment, not just as Jewish,but what Eagle Pass was like in
the teens and 20s and 30s andduring the war and it's, I think
(28:30):
, really interesting from thatstandpoint.
But of course it is about aJewish community sort of holding
it together under difficultcircumstances, how they connect
with the non-Jewish community,which is of course a much larger
community, and also the store,the history of the business and
what it was to sort of run adowntown department store, how
(28:50):
they acquire merchandise, howthey make selections about what
to carry, relations withemployees and clientele who come
up from Mexico to either workfor them or shop with them and
sort of treating this as ahistory of a border business,
and so it's very interestingfrom that standpoint as well.
It's a good border history.
(29:12):
My role was to basically takeMorris's manuscript that his son
, peter Riskind, had kind ofworked up into something
publishable and just kind of thenarrative needed some tweaking,
it needed a little cutting andpasting, but mostly to write an
introduction, write footnotes,try to explain what all these
things are.
Morris was an extremelyknowledgeable guy for living
(29:35):
where he lived.
He was extremely well-read andextremely worldly, traveled a
lot, lived in Los Angeles for 16years, was a lawyer and had a
very sophisticated outlook onthings, and so some of what he
throws into the text has to bekind of explained.
He drops these references andit's like you know what is he
(29:56):
talking about.
So I wrote a lot of footnotessort of explaining every
reference and person and theTexas history that he refers to,
and that was a big part of whatmy role was.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah, you did a good job.
It's very well cited and notedabout this that you get a good
sense on that.
You know, it's kind of anamazing thing.
I mean, when you say we comeinto Eagle Pass, I mean there
couldn't have been that manyJews in Eagle Pass other than
the Ritzan on this, but theacceptance there seemed to be.
(30:34):
They didn't.
You know, looking at the book,then you look at this, there
doesn't seem to be a whole lotof lack of acceptance amongst
people in Eagle Patch of theRitz Because in fact they were
considered very prominentmembers of the community.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
That's true, the population there, the Jewish
population, was never more than60.
60 people at its peak, and thatwas around World War Two, when
there were soldiers stationedthere from around the country,
some of whom were Jewish, whichaugmented the number, but there
were only three or four familiesthat were there for more than a
few years.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So it was a very small community, so so.
So go ahead.
How?
How, when you're, when you'vegot a community that small and
you're kind of isolated, how dowe marry?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Oh boy, there's.
That's a great.
There's a great story in thebook.
Morris's parents were marriedbefore they got here, as were
most of the other Jewishfamilies.
They married wherever they camefrom.
Morris met his wife during theyears he was living in Los
Angeles and she was born andraised there.
He went to college and lawschool in LA high school and
college and law school and hemet her in Los Angeles and then,
(31:49):
after he moved back to EaglePass, he started writing her
letters trying to sort of youknow woo her long distance and
she bought it.
I mean, he somehow convincedher leave Los Angeles, marry me,
move to Eagle Pass.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I'd like to have been the person looking at her face
when she got off the train inEagle.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Pass, or what a hero he must have been, I mean like
the seducer of all time, I don'tknow.
But he persuaded her and theymarried and she moved to Eagle
Pass and she lived there herwhole life.
She learned Spanish and fitinto the community there, and so
his children.
(32:28):
They raised four kids.
He and his wife Ruth raisedfour kids in Eagle Pass and I
think they all married peoplethey met at school.
They all went out of state tocollege, and so I assume that's
where their spouses came from.
But it was always, of course, aconcern, and not just in Eagle
Pass.
I mean, we were talking aboutall the little Texas communities
(32:49):
.
A lot of them had to travel tofind spouses.
They'd take a trip up northsomewhere and come back with a
wife.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that went on quite often, you
know, yeah Well, all thefascinating folks.
It's that the latest book,neither fishing or foul, a
mercantile Jewish family on thereal grant.
You don't have it yet.
Pick it up Texas tech press.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
John Brock, if you're listening, I'm selling books
for you, that's right.
I want a commission, john.
I want a commission.
So, brian, we ask people aquestion, we ask everybody this
as Brian Stone.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
What do you know try to get across to students about
history and teaching andeducation is that history is not
a subject of study.
History is our lives, that welive in it, that everyone
experiences it, everyone is aparticipant and a creator of
(33:48):
history, that it's not a subjectisolated from our experience,
but it is our experience andtherefore it, hopefully, is
something that they can connectto on a more personal level,
rather than just memorize thesenames or memorize the names of
these battles or whatever, butto realize that it's a living
thing that sort of surroundsthem.
(34:09):
And that's certainly true now,I mean, we are in the middle of
it.
I think we're experiencing alot more history than we would
like, and I think to understandthe subject that way helps make
it more meaningful and morerelevant and also, I think,
helps, hopefully, peopleunderstand what's happening to
them.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, that's you know what.
That's much more profound thanI could come up with.
So I think that's great.
I didn't know that's much moreprofound than.
I could come up with, so Ithink that's great.
Ron, thank you so much forcoming back and doing this.
This is this has been great.
It's a great, one of our greatpodcasts.
I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
So thank you all very much.
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