October 3, 2024 • 30 mins
Charles Waite, who teaches Texas History at UT-RGV, joins Gene and Scott to survey the fascinating landscape of teaching Texas history, academia, and personal anecdotes. Our conversation is steeped in nostalgia, as we reminisce about our shared experiences at Texas State University - San Marcos (Southwest Texas State) left an indelible mark on our academic journeys.
Our conversation with Chuck demonstrates the trials and triumphs of pursuing an academic career. Together, we discuss the evolving challenges of the academic job market and the dedication required to thrive in such a competitive environment. As Chuck recounts his path to becoming a history professor, we explore the influences of mentors and teaching styles that shaped his approach to education, emphasizing the importance of cultural diversity in teaching Texas history along the dynamic Texas-Mexico border.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbe and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I am Scott Sosby.
Gene, we continue our I thinkit's our we're going through our
week of your old my old homeweek.
Home week from people atSouthwest Texas State, which I
don't can we say Southwest TexasState anymore, or is it like
somebody?
The police are going to comerain down on us and make it say
Texas State?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
The police are going to come rain down on us and make
it say Texas Tech.
Well, we're talking withprobably my oldest friend from
college, and that is CharlesWade.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hello how are you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
We all three went together.
We were in graduate schooltogether at Texas Tech, and so
this is old home week for a lotof us, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Right, but Chuck and I started at San Marcos in.
I started there in ninety,ninety, eighty, nine, ninety.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, I started OK man, that's a long time that is
a long time ago.
That was long before.
It's longer the more you thinkabout it, chuck, that was a long
time ago, but Chuck is now downat the University of Texas Rio
Grande Valley, which is arelatively new school.
When did they go together?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
They merged.
Whatever they did, theycombined in 2015.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
2015.
I couldn't remember exactlywhen that was.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, we were UTPA in Edinburgh and UTBTSC in
Brownsville.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I guess it all worked out and y'all did all right.
Yeah, it kind of surprised uswith it.
Well, we know all about you,Chuck, but maybe not everybody
in the audience does.
So why don't you start us offby telling us about yourself,
education, how you gotinterested in history, where
you're from, what you do, allthose kind of good things?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
All right, well, hello folks.
Education, how you gotinterested in history, where
you're from, what you do, allthose kind of good things.
All right, well, hello folks.
My focus is US history,especially the South, the Old
South, the Civil War era andTexas history.
I've been at what used to bePan Am's UTRGV now since 2004,
which seems like forever ago andteaching various classes there.
(02:46):
I'm excited to be on theprogram here.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You got degrees at UT right.
Did you get your?
When you got your diploma fromSouthwest Texas State, did you
send it back and get the onethat says Texas State on it?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
now, sure, you had the original one still.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I guess they got you to do that right.
And then, of course, youcompleted your doctorate at
Texas Tech.
We were all there and, you know, every time people get together
we start reminiscing, I suppose, and many of these people maybe
people in our audience haven'theard of, but everybody has
memories of graduate school.
Why don't you tell our audiencewho are some of the most
(03:22):
memorable professors you had andgive some insight?
Most memorable professors youhad, and it gives some insight.
What made them so memorable andwhat do you think you learned
from them more than anythingelse?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, I remember let's see what was it.
Summer of 87 at UT Austin, Ihad a when they used to call it
Western Civ.
I had a Western Civ class, butour prof was a guy named Carlos
Le Gray from Italy, and theapproach he had to teaching the
class was to go in and throw uphis hands or talk with his hands
(03:51):
a lot, and he would saysomething like good day students
, Welcome, friends of the FrenchRevolution.
And should we rise up and killthe aristocrats, or should there
be a counter-revolution withNapoleon?
We argued all this stuff.
We read about the Frenchrevolution, we read the
communist manifesto, we read anextremely depressing book called
(04:14):
life in Auschwitz, and Iremember a lot from that class.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
What we do in the classroom, we all model shows.
In fact, one of my thing I'mtalking about I had been here
four or five years and I was ina graduate seminar class and I
remember that my eyesight hadstarted to go and so I got some
glasses and they were resting onmy nose and I leaned forward on
the chair and I said look class.
And I just kind of calledmyself and I said, oh my God,
(04:42):
I'm turning into Paul Carlsonright here before my eyes.
But we all modeled ourselves onsome people.
Is there somebody that you sawwith it that you said this is
who I model myself on in theclassroom?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Carlson kind of borrow a little bit.
Don Walker is a good one.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think we all have a little bit of Don Walker.
He did the nice folksy approachto Texas history.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
That's true.
Go out back to the building heyboys, let me buy you lunch and
talk about Texas.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
He has the best opening line.
I still use it In a Texashistory class when he taught the
undergraduate Texas history.
Now listen, if you're in thisclass and you think you're going
to come in here and listen tothis gun smoking bullshit,
you're in the wrong class.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Wow, that is a good opening line.
They remember that.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Was that Carlson that said that?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
No, it was Don Walker .
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Don Walker said it.
So, chuck, you TA'd for Carlsonright.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah yeah, my first semester.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So I remember that Chuck would, because Chuck and I
were roommates and Chuck wouldcome home.
Chuck says Carlson ends theclass with hug somebody, it'll
make you feel better.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, he gave a little snippet on your way out
and he's like the gruff voiceagain.
He'd say hey class, hug someone, it'll make you feel better.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Don't hug me though, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Don't hug me, doc.
You do that.
You do that these days youmight get in trouble.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's right.
Remember the day I showed upfor classes started my
introduction to graduate schoolthrough Dr Carlson was oh wait,
you're here.
You're late.
We got a lot of shit to do.
Yes, sir, All right, but he wasright, we did have a lot of
shit to do.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
First time I ever met him, I told him this story.
He claims that he didn't dothis, but I should have recorded
it because he did, because hewas the graduate advisor.
And when I came in and he wasthe graduate advisor, and when I
came in, and he was thegraduate advisor when I came to
go to graduate school, and soyou know, in those days you had
just went and showed him yourlittle card and they, you know,
signed off on it.
So I gave him my card.
He's sitting behind his deskleaning back in his chair and he
(06:55):
couldn't see, and so he'saccordion arming out there at
that card and he goes why thehell do you want to take these
classes?
And I didn't know what to sayand I just said one of them is
your class, sir.
And he goes damned if it isn't.
Damned if it isn't.
And he started laughing.
He signed my card and went on.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
That was my experience.
I took whatever there was thefirst semester and then I go to
sign up for the spring and hesays what idiot signed you up
for these classes?
You did, sir.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's your introduction to grad school.
So, Chuck, what?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
made you with all these great stories?
What made you decide to be ahistory professor?
That when I okay, I started asan undergrad, I wanted to be an
engineering major.
My dad was an engineer, youknow he made decent money and
all that I could.
As an undergrad, I wanted to bean engineering major.
My dad was an engineer, youknow he made decent money and
all that.
I could get a job, but bad idea, because there's lots of math
and science Next semester.
After that I'll be a businessmajor.
Didn't want to do that either.
Finally, rick realized I couldbe a history major.
(08:02):
I thought, well, this is good,I'll get a master's degree,
teach at a JUCO or somethingcommunity college.
And then I found out a lot ofPhDs are going there.
So it was kind of like stack upthe degrees so you'll get a job
, and it worked out well in theend.
It's a strange process, how thehiring has gone over the years.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So you just kept going to school, basically.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, yeah, stay out of.
Vietnam.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
That's right.
Well, you know, the hiringprocess is one of those things
we're talking about now, but wewere talking before this about
how hard now, if you get a PhD,whether you're going to get a
job or not in the historyprofession, that's probably next
to nothing.
If you get a PhD, whetheryou're going to get a job or not
in the history profession,that's probably next to nothing.
All three of us finishedroughly the same time.
When did you finish your degree, chuck?
2002?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
99, I did my defense.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Oh, did you really that?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
early.
Oh, Chuck finished his classesand he pushed through that
dissertation.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, the dissertation was when you
finished your dissertation.
It was in 99?
, was it that early?
Yeah, the dissertation was wait.
When you finished yourdissertation was in 99?
, was it that early?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, August of 99.
Really I couldn't do this today, but I buckled down and just
cranked out a chapter everycouple months and got through it
.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Okay, well, I thought it was a little later than that
.
Then I finished in 2004, which,gene, also right, because we
graduated at the same time, geneand I yeah, yeah.
Gene was on the 40-year plan ofgoing through and we all three
got jobs at tenure-trackuniversities when we were told
(09:37):
that was fairly rare, but itactually wasn't.
Now it really is, and the jobprocess and the job market is
really really tight these days.
If somebody came to you, Chuck,and said I'm thinking of going
to graduate school and getting aPhD in history, Honestly, what
would you tell them?
What advice would you give?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
honestly, I'd say it's a bad idea if you want a
job.
When a student comes by andasks me about that, I say,
basically, sit down and shut thedoor and I've got some things
to tell you.
And you've got a hugeinvestment of time, first of all
, if you want to spend the nextfive years going to school five
years or more huge investment ofmoney and then the chances of a
(10:18):
job on the other side.
Now, having said that, it's agreat job and I hate to rain on
anybody's parade and not havethem sign up because of me, but
they've got to know what's aheadof them.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm kind of in the same situation, although you
know, we're all getting prettyold, maybe we're all going to
retire soon and open up a bunchof positions for some of these
young PhDs to come along andfill our shoes.
Well, they won't be able tofill our shoes, but they can try
.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So do you remember Don Walker?
And I don't, you know, saddestmaybe this is you and me, chuck.
Don Walker sat us down and saidboys, we're outside smoking a
cigarette.
Boys, you know, whenever youget your PhDs you know he shook
his finger a lot there's goingto be a lot of openings, right,
(11:09):
there's going to be all theseopenings and you guys are going
to fill them.
And, as it turned out, I thinkwe were told later on that our
group Scott, Chuck, myself werethe last ones to get tenure
track positions out of the gate.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I think that's right.
Well, maybe Leland did.
Leland did pretty quickly.
Oh, he doesn't count becausehe's already quit.
Yeah, there's not very many,that's for sure.
And and always the here's theanalogy I use is that you know
the famous when they talk aboutthe profession.
(11:52):
Uh, the famous example so manypeople use when we were in
graduate school was the factthat I think it was in 1986 that
ucla alone produced more PhDsthat year in history than there
were jobs open in the wholeUnited States.
Wow the 80s were that time ofjust it was just barren.
There was like it is now, wherenothing was happening and
(12:15):
people were not getting jobs.
But then in the late 1990s,those, all those people that
were hired in the 70s and theearly 60s and the 70s began to
retire and so the jobs openedback up and the window came open
.
And we got to slide into thatwindow.
But, man, about 2008, 2009,that window slammed shut.
(12:39):
Nobody's opened it back upreally, since then.
Then it's a.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
It's a tight market, but it still is a good market
well, maybe we're the ones thathave to retire it up, but that's
what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
We are.
Well, all three of us teachtexas history.
It's what we, that's our mainthing that we teach.
Uh, what do you we've talked onthis with with?
This is a question we ask a lotof professors and they come on
our class, on our show what take?
What do you want your students,chuck, when your students leave
your classroom at the end ofyour Texas history class, what
(13:10):
do you want them to take awayfrom your class?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I've gotten away from the.
You memorize this fact, thisdate, this governor, this
president and more towards.
Here in Texas, you've got atleast four or five different
cultures coming together.
You start out with NativeAmericans, then you get the
Spanish, the French, laterGerman immigrants, african
(13:36):
Americans, people from the oldSouth, lower South, upper South,
midwestwest, everywhere else,and it all makes this big.
Um, I don't know this, this mix.
I think it's very interestingthat culture is a big thing
these days, especially where Iam, it's close to another, being
in the middle of another one.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That's true, it's.
I mean, I mean, definitely theborder is a different culture.
Well, I mean, I teach that Ihave a whole section on border
culture, uh, and, and it reallyis a unique culture.
I'm not so sure.
I don't know, chuck, you'redown there in the guts of it and
I've always maintained I don'tknow whether this is true, but
(14:13):
50 years from now, that borderculture that may be the culture
in the whole of the state.
It may become the dominantculture in Texas, which is not a
bad thing If I'm still alive.
The food will be better thefood will be better, that's for
damn sure.
We need some of that borderculture to come to East Texas to
teach these people how to makeTex-Mex food.
(14:34):
I'll tell you that right now.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Well, we've got a.
There's a program here what dothey call it?
B3 Scholars.
They have these classes thathave a multicultural element and
, yeah, the language.
Once you understand thelanguage and the culture and how
it all fits together, it'sabout 50 years from now.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I don't know what's going to happen.
How many students do you allhave that are from Mexico, that
come over we?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
usually have.
Okay, I've got sections of 30and then, um, if I'm in
edinburgh, which is about 20miles from the border, we might
have two or three either crossfrom reynosa somewhere else
across the border, or maybe theygrew up in mexico.
Now you get up brownsville andteach there, which I do
(15:22):
sometimes, and Matamoros isright next door.
Some people are just crossingand then you can see the river
almost from the university.
So it's much more enmeshedthere.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I guess that was more my point.
How many people are actually?
They live in Matamoros orReynoso and then they come and
commute to school at UTRGB.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Not as many as they did.
Reynoso's had some issues inthe last few years and it's
tough to get across the border,but Brownsville's still more
back and forth in Brownsvilleand whenever border stuff comes
up about, clamp down the border,longer wait times, that sort of
thing.
It always affects us.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Right, I'm sure, I'm sure, without a doubt, that
would be the case.
Well, something else in theclassroom that we all do, you
know, Gina and I did a in fact Ilistened to it the other day
while I was working out, as amatter of fact back in I guess
we did it in October last of howto arrange your class and how
to arrange your history classand how you teach it, and one of
(16:26):
the things we talked about wascertain themes that we all have
in a class.
So in your classes not justyour Texas history class maybe,
Chuck, but even when you teachthe US history surveys are there
certain themes that you like tohit on and make sure you are
brought out in your class,certain theme that you like to
hit on and make sure you arebrought out in your class.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah, well, I do the chronological theme, you know,
pre-columbian, colonial, earlyRepublic, and then onto the 20th
century, and then the culturalthing, and if you got a theme
that they understand it better,I'm always kind of changing them
, like the one, the one leadingup to.
I'm always kind of changingthem Like the one leading up to
(17:03):
the Civil War is divergence ofopinion over slavery and
religion and territorialexpansion.
Something they can get theirhands around and it gives some
coherence to a lesson, but thethemes are always changing.
It seems like.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Do your themes change ?
You know, scott, when Chuck andI were at San Marcos there was
a professor named Yeager whotaught there.
He taught modern US graduateand then he taught the second
half US survey and I guess hetaught the first half too.
But he had these themes One thefirst theme for the US survey,
and I guess he taught the firsthalf too, but he had these
themes One the first theme forthe US.
(17:46):
Let me see if I can rememberthis.
This was in the 80s and 90s.
See if I can remember that farback.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
He was the Hamilton versus Jefferson guy.
Yes, that was his theme.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
That was theme one Hamilton versus Jefferson.
You know, big government or notbig government, but active
government versus kind oflaissez-faire government.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, and he had them do readings that were consensus
or conflict.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Right, that was a bit .
Can you imagine?
I don't.
That was an advanced level book.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And that was the big part of colonial history.
I mean, that's what they allargued over.
I don't know that that's a bigis it?
Is that a big part of colonialhistorians these days?
I don't know whether they stillargue that consensus conflict
thing like they used to do.
Well, now it's.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Atlantic world.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
It's not that, oh it's all part of the Atlantic
world.
I mean.
Think about how much I meaneven all of us.
We change how much way historyis taught.
We've all been doing this for along time.
What about you, Chuck?
What do you think is thebiggest change in how history is
taught?
I say this I'm in the.
(18:57):
I succeeded in parts inMcDonald East Texas Historical
Association and I've got theseold file cabinets here.
I was just going through themthe other day.
There were some of his oldexams.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
He left his stuff there.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
His old exams that he gave were kind of illuminating.
He asked questions of some ofhis Texas history exams.
These were some of thequestions on his exams how many
cannon were at the Alamo?
Who was the secretary, meansecretary?
Who was franklin pierce'ssecond secretary of war?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
wow we would never think of asking questions like
hey then, but that wasconsidered history you say that,
but what was the name of thehistory club at tech DD Tompkins
, right?
Oh, yeah, and where did thatname come from?
(19:50):
It was a comp question.
It was a comprehensive question.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
He was Monroe's vice president, but that's just it.
Would anybody ask acomprehensive question like that
now?
Would either one of us if wewere given one, why would you?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I'd be afraid of the answer.
Who was DD Tompkins?
Speaker 1 (20:08):
given one.
Why would you?
I'd be afraid of the answer.
Who was dd thomas?
Well, for the record, franklinpierce's second, uh uh,
secretary of war was jeffersondavis, but which is probably why
I asked yeah, but it's changeda lot.
So what?
What do you think has changed?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
most of all, chuck I like asking them in any class,
and especially in Texas history.
I try to get them to do essayquestions and writing
assignments where they'rethinking about something that
they might not remember who aSecretary of War is or which
order the presidents are butthey can put a theme together,
have some coherence to theiressay.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I agree.
I've gone to where it's almostall take-home essay.
Now with the growth of AI andall this you know.
I may have to rethink how we'regoing to have to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Do you have a policy yet?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have to have.
That's one thing we've had atour beginning of meetings this
semester.
We have to include a policy onAI in our syllabi.
I mean it's a tool.
It's a tool that you can useand it can be a very good tool
to use, but it can also becomejust another crutch.
I say it's a lot of how you askthe questions, and if you do a
(21:22):
good job in how you ask thequestions, you're going to
reduce the reliance on AI toproduce the answers to a
question.
If I ask an AI, hey, how manycannon were there in the Alamo?
They might give me an answer.
You know what the totallycorrect answer to how many
cannon were at the Alamo is,don't you?
What's that?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Not enough.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
That's true.
Well, if they could takesomething like cannon the Alamo
and make it into a story thatsomebody would find interesting,
that's not produced by AI, andthen they could point out well,
this is why the cannon mattered,and the rifles and the muskets
the Mexican soldiers had it's.
Ai is not at the point it cando that yet, Is it that's?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
that's right.
And, but that's what studentscan take from that and do that
of course you know I don't wantto get too pedantic, but you
know the weapons at the Alamomattered.
It mattered that the Mexicansoldiers were using surplus
Napoleonic war muskets that werenot accurate and had a killing
range of maybe 50 yards at most,while the Tex texian soldiers
(22:30):
are using up-to-date long rifleswith killing range of 200 to
250 yards that made a bigdifference, that's.
That's how 187 people couldhold off a thousand uh on an
attack in that regard.
So, and that's the kind of thingI think we want our students to
be able to take away from, uh,when they do that, and that's
one thing I think we want ourstudents to be able to take away
from when they do that, andthat's one thing.
I think history has changed inthat regard, that we do.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, and the same story happens 10 years later.
The US Army is down here inSouth Texas and then across the
border and they're using more orless modern equipment, and the
Mexican Army?
Its gunpowder is bad.
They don't get enough to eat.
They're having revolutions.
It was a disaster Once theycould see the threads where this
happens and Mexico loses thewar.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
They're thinking when your commanders are siphoning
off most of the money thatshould have gone to soldiers
from the very top.
That tends to happen, doesn'tit?
I love it when I tell mystudents quite often I said
y'all don't understand.
Mexican history is sofascinating.
It is just unbelievablyfascinating.
And what goes on throughoutmexican history will blow your
(23:41):
mind if you go and try to studyit and see how how it has
progressed and and the levels ofcorruption, of course, are
unbelievable.
I mean, you know, us historyhas.
The levels of corruption, ofcourse, are unbelievable.
I mean, us history has itslevels of corruptions.
And then there's something elsethat goes on beyond that, as
we've been.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
How has technology, how has this stuff changed for
you?
What have been some of thebiggest challenges?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
The big thing to me is the PowerPoints in the
classroom and putting in videoclips and all that.
The more I'm going to put oneof these together.
I try to think that the wordsdon't matter as much.
You've got a few sentences herethat can follow the story, but
the images Right.
I remember kind of laughing atsome of the folks in tech would
wheel the PowerPoint thing intotheir classroom.
(24:24):
Why do you need to do that?
They got a book but the bookcan't project Like.
I showed them an imageyesterday of the Virgin of
Guadalupe.
I said, okay, here's why thisis important in South Texas and
in Mexico.
Because you have a fairly darkskin iteration of the Virgin,
mexican peasants can look up toher Catholicism extremely
(24:46):
important.
The whole visual aspect of thatyou just didn't have before.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
We were in graduate school, remember they didn't
issue us computers.
Our offices didn't havecomputers.
Now, that would be so foreignto walk into any office now and
there is no computer.
Gene has that old photograph hedigs out every once in a while
of us many, many, many, many,many years ago sitting around
with no computers.
I mean, we had a phone.
(25:14):
That was the biggest technologywe had.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
You had the old system where once a semester you
wheeled in the video equipmentand you showed for the whole
hour.
You showed a video, Right.
I can't imagine holding yourattention for an hour with one
video.
You couldn't hold theirattention for an hour.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Well, you can't hold their attention for an hour now,
for anything.
That's how it works.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, not only that, but I remember still having to
load and I knew this because Idid it in high school for all
the teachers how to load a filmprojector.
Then we moved into video, Thenwe moved into DVDs.
Now it's all streaming.
So I've got a whole box of DVDsthat I used to show in class.
Now it's all streaming.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
We had a whole it was a big thing a DVD library where
students could come and checkout historical films and all
that stuff and it was justtaking space and we gave them
away and sold them all hereabout four or five years ago
just to close that down becausethey we didn't need it, because
it was right, it was outside andit didn't work out any uh, you
(26:21):
know, I was doing some researchlast summer and, um, I was in
baton rouge at the lsu archivesand I wanted to look at
something on microfiche andyou've got these very skilled
archivists and they're askingeach other hey, who knows how to
read?
microfiche.
They don't know what it is andthey don't have those machines
(26:42):
anymore.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
No, eventually we got something out there and kind of
managed to print off some pages.
But if I entered a search,especially colonial atlantic
world history, of our resourceshere, so much of it's microfiche
yeah, I wish I could pan over.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I've got sitting in my corner like this, uh, a
microfilm machine that I haveused.
When I get them over, I meanthis thing's years old and it's.
The ones over in the researchlibrary are not even closer with
this looks like and how itworks.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, I remember going to the tech library at
night with a big roll full ofdimes to do the microfilm
printouts from newspapers,dissertation, and that's all
online now.
Oh, here we go.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It's all, yeah's all online now.
Oh, here we go.
It's all it's, yeah, it's.
The technology has changed.
Like she said, you're doingsome research.
Why don't you tell us what?
What are you working on thesedays?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, the last couple of years I've been looking at
soldiers from the US and theMexican American war and how
they personal accounts and UShistory and that kind of very
traditional kind of history.
But you put a cultural spin onit and a religious spin.
These guys will come fromMaryland or Virginia or some
(27:57):
other place in Texas.
They encounter a whole newculture once they get south of
Corpus Christi.
Some of them are Catholics.
In fact I'm in the process ofordering the diary, the journal.
I think he was a Jesuit priestwho went along with the army to
reassure the Mexican people thathey, we're not here to steal
(28:17):
your gold crucifixes, we're notgoing to dishonor your women
much, but they're basicallyselling the US Army to the
Mexican army.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, that was important stuff, right, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
And the more I look into maybe it's because of where
I am, but the more I look intothat era, so much of Texas is
what it is because of that eratheir territorial expansion
where the border is.
Do you see, I read a letterfrom one guy who he was sick.
He's writing back to his wifeand he's saying oh my God, I'm
in Comargo here and it's 115degrees and I have a fever.
(28:54):
It was nice and you cansympathize with that, more than
how many cannons are in thelocal Presidio or something.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, that sounds interesting, so that you're
going to produce a manuscript onthat?
Is that the goal?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Yeah, interesting.
So you're going to produce amanuscript on that.
Is that the goal?
Yeah, yeah, the pace is notsuper fast right now.
Well, nobody wants to.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
We end our podcast with a question to our guests,
giving them the opportunity towax philosophically or to pass
on the nugget of knowledge thatmay spur some young mind to go
off into some sort of just justjust monumental spasms of
(29:36):
intellectualism.
So we ask you chuck way whatyou know what?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
okay, I can only think of like anecdotal things,
but here's something I want tothrow in on a class one day.
Go in and say class, who wasWilliam Jennings Bryan and why?
Was he important Because nobodyknows that anymore.
Oh, he was a guy from Nebraska.
He was a populist, yeah, andthen the Scopes trial,
(30:09):
fundamentalism, all of that.
He's somebody that's.
A lot of people have beenoverlooked in US history, and so
what's the answer?
The answer is learn somethingabout him.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Hey, thanks a lot, Chuck.
Thank you have a great one.
Okay, friends, talk to youlater.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Bye-bye.
A lot, chuck.
Thank you, have a great one.
Okay, friends, talk to youlater.
Bye-bye, bye.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbe and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I am Scott Sosby.
Gene, we continue our I thinkit's our we're going through our
week of your old my old homeweek.
Home week from people atSouthwest Texas State, which I
don't can we say Southwest TexasState anymore, or is it like
somebody?
The police are going to comerain down on us and make it say
Texas State?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
The police are going to come rain down on us and make
it say Texas Tech.
Well, we're talking withprobably my oldest friend from
college, and that is CharlesWade.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hello how are you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
We all three went together.
We were in graduate schooltogether at Texas Tech, and so
this is old home week for a lotof us, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Right, but Chuck and I started at San Marcos in.
I started there in ninety,ninety, eighty, nine, ninety.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, I started OK man, that's a long time that is
a long time ago.
That was long before.
It's longer the more you thinkabout it, chuck, that was a long
time ago, but Chuck is now downat the University of Texas Rio
Grande Valley, which is arelatively new school.
When did they go together?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
They merged.
Whatever they did, theycombined in 2015.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
2015.
I couldn't remember exactlywhen that was.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, we were UTPA in Edinburgh and UTBTSC in
Brownsville.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I guess it all worked out and y'all did all right.
Yeah, it kind of surprised uswith it.
Well, we know all about you,Chuck, but maybe not everybody
in the audience does.
So why don't you start us offby telling us about yourself,
education, how you gotinterested in history, where
you're from, what you do, allthose kind of good things?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
All right, well, hello folks.
Education, how you gotinterested in history, where
you're from, what you do, allthose kind of good things.
All right, well, hello folks.
My focus is US history,especially the South, the Old
South, the Civil War era andTexas history.
I've been at what used to bePan Am's UTRGV now since 2004,
which seems like forever ago andteaching various classes there.
(02:46):
I'm excited to be on theprogram here.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You got degrees at UT right.
Did you get your?
When you got your diploma fromSouthwest Texas State, did you
send it back and get the onethat says Texas State on it?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
now, sure, you had the original one still.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I guess they got you to do that right.
And then, of course, youcompleted your doctorate at
Texas Tech.
We were all there and, you know, every time people get together
we start reminiscing, I suppose, and many of these people maybe
people in our audience haven'theard of, but everybody has
memories of graduate school.
Why don't you tell our audiencewho are some of the most
(03:22):
memorable professors you had andgive some insight?
Most memorable professors youhad, and it gives some insight.
What made them so memorable andwhat do you think you learned
from them more than anythingelse?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, I remember let's see what was it.
Summer of 87 at UT Austin, Ihad a when they used to call it
Western Civ.
I had a Western Civ class, butour prof was a guy named Carlos
Le Gray from Italy, and theapproach he had to teaching the
class was to go in and throw uphis hands or talk with his hands
(03:51):
a lot, and he would saysomething like good day students
, Welcome, friends of the FrenchRevolution.
And should we rise up and killthe aristocrats, or should there
be a counter-revolution withNapoleon?
We argued all this stuff.
We read about the Frenchrevolution, we read the
communist manifesto, we read anextremely depressing book called
(04:14):
life in Auschwitz, and Iremember a lot from that class.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
What we do in the classroom, we all model shows.
In fact, one of my thing I'mtalking about I had been here
four or five years and I was ina graduate seminar class and I
remember that my eyesight hadstarted to go and so I got some
glasses and they were resting onmy nose and I leaned forward on
the chair and I said look class.
And I just kind of calledmyself and I said, oh my God,
(04:42):
I'm turning into Paul Carlsonright here before my eyes.
But we all modeled ourselves onsome people.
Is there somebody that you sawwith it that you said this is
who I model myself on in theclassroom?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Carlson kind of borrow a little bit.
Don Walker is a good one.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think we all have a little bit of Don Walker.
He did the nice folksy approachto Texas history.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
That's true.
Go out back to the building heyboys, let me buy you lunch and
talk about Texas.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
He has the best opening line.
I still use it In a Texashistory class when he taught the
undergraduate Texas history.
Now listen, if you're in thisclass and you think you're going
to come in here and listen tothis gun smoking bullshit,
you're in the wrong class.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Wow, that is a good opening line.
They remember that.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Was that Carlson that said that?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
No, it was Don Walker .
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Don Walker said it.
So, chuck, you TA'd for Carlsonright.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah yeah, my first semester.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So I remember that Chuck would, because Chuck and I
were roommates and Chuck wouldcome home.
Chuck says Carlson ends theclass with hug somebody, it'll
make you feel better.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, he gave a little snippet on your way out
and he's like the gruff voiceagain.
He'd say hey class, hug someone, it'll make you feel better.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Don't hug me though, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Don't hug me, doc.
You do that.
You do that these days youmight get in trouble.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's right.
Remember the day I showed upfor classes started my
introduction to graduate schoolthrough Dr Carlson was oh wait,
you're here.
You're late.
We got a lot of shit to do.
Yes, sir, All right, but he wasright, we did have a lot of
shit to do.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
First time I ever met him, I told him this story.
He claims that he didn't dothis, but I should have recorded
it because he did, because hewas the graduate advisor.
And when I came in and he wasthe graduate advisor, and when I
came in, and he was thegraduate advisor when I came to
go to graduate school, and soyou know, in those days you had
just went and showed him yourlittle card and they, you know,
signed off on it.
So I gave him my card.
He's sitting behind his deskleaning back in his chair and he
(06:55):
couldn't see, and so he'saccordion arming out there at
that card and he goes why thehell do you want to take these
classes?
And I didn't know what to sayand I just said one of them is
your class, sir.
And he goes damned if it isn't.
Damned if it isn't.
And he started laughing.
He signed my card and went on.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
That was my experience.
I took whatever there was thefirst semester and then I go to
sign up for the spring and hesays what idiot signed you up
for these classes?
You did, sir.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's your introduction to grad school.
So, Chuck, what?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
made you with all these great stories?
What made you decide to be ahistory professor?
That when I okay, I started asan undergrad, I wanted to be an
engineering major.
My dad was an engineer, youknow he made decent money and
all that I could.
As an undergrad, I wanted to bean engineering major.
My dad was an engineer, youknow he made decent money and
all that.
I could get a job, but bad idea, because there's lots of math
and science Next semester.
After that I'll be a businessmajor.
Didn't want to do that either.
Finally, rick realized I couldbe a history major.
(08:02):
I thought, well, this is good,I'll get a master's degree,
teach at a JUCO or somethingcommunity college.
And then I found out a lot ofPhDs are going there.
So it was kind of like stack upthe degrees so you'll get a job
, and it worked out well in theend.
It's a strange process, how thehiring has gone over the years.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So you just kept going to school, basically.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, yeah, stay out of.
Vietnam.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
That's right.
Well, you know, the hiringprocess is one of those things
we're talking about now, but wewere talking before this about
how hard now, if you get a PhD,whether you're going to get a
job or not in the historyprofession, that's probably next
to nothing.
If you get a PhD, whetheryou're going to get a job or not
in the history profession,that's probably next to nothing.
All three of us finishedroughly the same time.
When did you finish your degree, chuck?
2002?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
99, I did my defense.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Oh, did you really that?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
early.
Oh, Chuck finished his classesand he pushed through that
dissertation.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, the dissertation was when you
finished your dissertation.
It was in 99?
, was it that early?
Yeah, the dissertation was wait.
When you finished yourdissertation was in 99?
, was it that early?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, August of 99.
Really I couldn't do this today, but I buckled down and just
cranked out a chapter everycouple months and got through it
.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Okay, well, I thought it was a little later than that
.
Then I finished in 2004, which,gene, also right, because we
graduated at the same time, geneand I yeah, yeah.
Gene was on the 40-year plan ofgoing through and we all three
got jobs at tenure-trackuniversities when we were told
(09:37):
that was fairly rare, but itactually wasn't.
Now it really is, and the jobprocess and the job market is
really really tight these days.
If somebody came to you, Chuck,and said I'm thinking of going
to graduate school and getting aPhD in history, Honestly, what
would you tell them?
What advice would you give?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
honestly, I'd say it's a bad idea if you want a
job.
When a student comes by andasks me about that, I say,
basically, sit down and shut thedoor and I've got some things
to tell you.
And you've got a hugeinvestment of time, first of all
, if you want to spend the nextfive years going to school five
years or more huge investment ofmoney and then the chances of a
(10:18):
job on the other side.
Now, having said that, it's agreat job and I hate to rain on
anybody's parade and not havethem sign up because of me, but
they've got to know what's aheadof them.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm kind of in the same situation, although you
know, we're all getting prettyold, maybe we're all going to
retire soon and open up a bunchof positions for some of these
young PhDs to come along andfill our shoes.
Well, they won't be able tofill our shoes, but they can try
.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So do you remember Don Walker?
And I don't, you know, saddestmaybe this is you and me, chuck.
Don Walker sat us down and saidboys, we're outside smoking a
cigarette.
Boys, you know, whenever youget your PhDs you know he shook
his finger a lot there's goingto be a lot of openings, right,
(11:09):
there's going to be all theseopenings and you guys are going
to fill them.
And, as it turned out, I thinkwe were told later on that our
group Scott, Chuck, myself werethe last ones to get tenure
track positions out of the gate.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I think that's right.
Well, maybe Leland did.
Leland did pretty quickly.
Oh, he doesn't count becausehe's already quit.
Yeah, there's not very many,that's for sure.
And and always the here's theanalogy I use is that you know
the famous when they talk aboutthe profession.
(11:52):
Uh, the famous example so manypeople use when we were in
graduate school was the factthat I think it was in 1986 that
ucla alone produced more PhDsthat year in history than there
were jobs open in the wholeUnited States.
Wow the 80s were that time ofjust it was just barren.
There was like it is now, wherenothing was happening and
(12:15):
people were not getting jobs.
But then in the late 1990s,those, all those people that
were hired in the 70s and theearly 60s and the 70s began to
retire and so the jobs openedback up and the window came open
.
And we got to slide into thatwindow.
But, man, about 2008, 2009,that window slammed shut.
(12:39):
Nobody's opened it back upreally, since then.
Then it's a.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
It's a tight market, but it still is a good market
well, maybe we're the ones thathave to retire it up, but that's
what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
We are.
Well, all three of us teachtexas history.
It's what we, that's our mainthing that we teach.
Uh, what do you we've talked onthis with with?
This is a question we ask a lotof professors and they come on
our class, on our show what take?
What do you want your students,chuck, when your students leave
your classroom at the end ofyour Texas history class, what
(13:10):
do you want them to take awayfrom your class?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I've gotten away from the.
You memorize this fact, thisdate, this governor, this
president and more towards.
Here in Texas, you've got atleast four or five different
cultures coming together.
You start out with NativeAmericans, then you get the
Spanish, the French, laterGerman immigrants, african
(13:36):
Americans, people from the oldSouth, lower South, upper South,
midwestwest, everywhere else,and it all makes this big.
Um, I don't know this, this mix.
I think it's very interestingthat culture is a big thing
these days, especially where Iam, it's close to another, being
in the middle of another one.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That's true, it's.
I mean, I mean, definitely theborder is a different culture.
Well, I mean, I teach that Ihave a whole section on border
culture, uh, and, and it reallyis a unique culture.
I'm not so sure.
I don't know, chuck, you'redown there in the guts of it and
I've always maintained I don'tknow whether this is true, but
(14:13):
50 years from now, that borderculture that may be the culture
in the whole of the state.
It may become the dominantculture in Texas, which is not a
bad thing If I'm still alive.
The food will be better thefood will be better, that's for
damn sure.
We need some of that borderculture to come to East Texas to
teach these people how to makeTex-Mex food.
(14:34):
I'll tell you that right now.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Well, we've got a.
There's a program here what dothey call it?
B3 Scholars.
They have these classes thathave a multicultural element and
, yeah, the language.
Once you understand thelanguage and the culture and how
it all fits together, it'sabout 50 years from now.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I don't know what's going to happen.
How many students do you allhave that are from Mexico, that
come over we?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
usually have.
Okay, I've got sections of 30and then, um, if I'm in
edinburgh, which is about 20miles from the border, we might
have two or three either crossfrom reynosa somewhere else
across the border, or maybe theygrew up in mexico.
Now you get up brownsville andteach there, which I do
(15:22):
sometimes, and Matamoros isright next door.
Some people are just crossingand then you can see the river
almost from the university.
So it's much more enmeshedthere.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I guess that was more my point.
How many people are actually?
They live in Matamoros orReynoso and then they come and
commute to school at UTRGB.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Not as many as they did.
Reynoso's had some issues inthe last few years and it's
tough to get across the border,but Brownsville's still more
back and forth in Brownsvilleand whenever border stuff comes
up about, clamp down the border,longer wait times, that sort of
thing.
It always affects us.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Right, I'm sure, I'm sure, without a doubt, that
would be the case.
Well, something else in theclassroom that we all do, you
know, Gina and I did a in fact Ilistened to it the other day
while I was working out, as amatter of fact back in I guess
we did it in October last of howto arrange your class and how
to arrange your history classand how you teach it, and one of
(16:26):
the things we talked about wascertain themes that we all have
in a class.
So in your classes not justyour Texas history class maybe,
Chuck, but even when you teachthe US history surveys are there
certain themes that you like tohit on and make sure you are
brought out in your class,certain theme that you like to
hit on and make sure you arebrought out in your class.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah, well, I do the chronological theme, you know,
pre-columbian, colonial, earlyRepublic, and then onto the 20th
century, and then the culturalthing, and if you got a theme
that they understand it better,I'm always kind of changing them
, like the one, the one leadingup to.
I'm always kind of changingthem Like the one leading up to
(17:03):
the Civil War is divergence ofopinion over slavery and
religion and territorialexpansion.
Something they can get theirhands around and it gives some
coherence to a lesson, but thethemes are always changing.
It seems like.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Do your themes change ?
You know, scott, when Chuck andI were at San Marcos there was
a professor named Yeager whotaught there.
He taught modern US graduateand then he taught the second
half US survey and I guess hetaught the first half too.
But he had these themes One thefirst theme for the US survey,
and I guess he taught the firsthalf too, but he had these
themes One the first theme forthe US.
(17:46):
Let me see if I can rememberthis.
This was in the 80s and 90s.
See if I can remember that farback.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
He was the Hamilton versus Jefferson guy.
Yes, that was his theme.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
That was theme one Hamilton versus Jefferson.
You know, big government or notbig government, but active
government versus kind oflaissez-faire government.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, and he had them do readings that were consensus
or conflict.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Right, that was a bit .
Can you imagine?
I don't.
That was an advanced level book.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And that was the big part of colonial history.
I mean, that's what they allargued over.
I don't know that that's a bigis it?
Is that a big part of colonialhistorians these days?
I don't know whether they stillargue that consensus conflict
thing like they used to do.
Well, now it's.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Atlantic world.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
It's not that, oh it's all part of the Atlantic
world.
I mean.
Think about how much I meaneven all of us.
We change how much way historyis taught.
We've all been doing this for along time.
What about you, Chuck?
What do you think is thebiggest change in how history is
taught?
I say this I'm in the.
(18:57):
I succeeded in parts inMcDonald East Texas Historical
Association and I've got theseold file cabinets here.
I was just going through themthe other day.
There were some of his oldexams.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
He left his stuff there.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
His old exams that he gave were kind of illuminating.
He asked questions of some ofhis Texas history exams.
These were some of thequestions on his exams how many
cannon were at the Alamo?
Who was the secretary, meansecretary?
Who was franklin pierce'ssecond secretary of war?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
wow we would never think of asking questions like
hey then, but that wasconsidered history you say that,
but what was the name of thehistory club at tech DD Tompkins
, right?
Oh, yeah, and where did thatname come from?
(19:50):
It was a comp question.
It was a comprehensive question.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
He was Monroe's vice president, but that's just it.
Would anybody ask acomprehensive question like that
now?
Would either one of us if wewere given one, why would you?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I'd be afraid of the answer.
Who was DD Tompkins?
Speaker 1 (20:08):
given one.
Why would you?
I'd be afraid of the answer.
Who was dd thomas?
Well, for the record, franklinpierce's second, uh uh,
secretary of war was jeffersondavis, but which is probably why
I asked yeah, but it's changeda lot.
So what?
What do you think has changed?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
most of all, chuck I like asking them in any class,
and especially in Texas history.
I try to get them to do essayquestions and writing
assignments where they'rethinking about something that
they might not remember who aSecretary of War is or which
order the presidents are butthey can put a theme together,
have some coherence to theiressay.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I agree.
I've gone to where it's almostall take-home essay.
Now with the growth of AI andall this you know.
I may have to rethink how we'regoing to have to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Do you have a policy yet?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have to have.
That's one thing we've had atour beginning of meetings this
semester.
We have to include a policy onAI in our syllabi.
I mean it's a tool.
It's a tool that you can useand it can be a very good tool
to use, but it can also becomejust another crutch.
I say it's a lot of how you askthe questions, and if you do a
(21:22):
good job in how you ask thequestions, you're going to
reduce the reliance on AI toproduce the answers to a
question.
If I ask an AI, hey, how manycannon were there in the Alamo?
They might give me an answer.
You know what the totallycorrect answer to how many
cannon were at the Alamo is,don't you?
What's that?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Not enough.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
That's true.
Well, if they could takesomething like cannon the Alamo
and make it into a story thatsomebody would find interesting,
that's not produced by AI, andthen they could point out well,
this is why the cannon mattered,and the rifles and the muskets
the Mexican soldiers had it's.
Ai is not at the point it cando that yet, Is it that's?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
that's right.
And, but that's what studentscan take from that and do that
of course you know I don't wantto get too pedantic, but you
know the weapons at the Alamomattered.
It mattered that the Mexicansoldiers were using surplus
Napoleonic war muskets that werenot accurate and had a killing
range of maybe 50 yards at most,while the Tex texian soldiers
(22:30):
are using up-to-date long rifleswith killing range of 200 to
250 yards that made a bigdifference, that's.
That's how 187 people couldhold off a thousand uh on an
attack in that regard.
So, and that's the kind of thingI think we want our students to
be able to take away from, uh,when they do that, and that's
one thing I think we want ourstudents to be able to take away
from when they do that, andthat's one thing.
I think history has changed inthat regard, that we do.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, and the same story happens 10 years later.
The US Army is down here inSouth Texas and then across the
border and they're using more orless modern equipment, and the
Mexican Army?
Its gunpowder is bad.
They don't get enough to eat.
They're having revolutions.
It was a disaster Once theycould see the threads where this
happens and Mexico loses thewar.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
They're thinking when your commanders are siphoning
off most of the money thatshould have gone to soldiers
from the very top.
That tends to happen, doesn'tit?
I love it when I tell mystudents quite often I said
y'all don't understand.
Mexican history is sofascinating.
It is just unbelievablyfascinating.
And what goes on throughoutmexican history will blow your
(23:41):
mind if you go and try to studyit and see how how it has
progressed and and the levels ofcorruption, of course, are
unbelievable.
I mean, you know, us historyhas.
The levels of corruption, ofcourse, are unbelievable.
I mean, us history has itslevels of corruptions.
And then there's something elsethat goes on beyond that, as
we've been.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
How has technology, how has this stuff changed for
you?
What have been some of thebiggest challenges?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
The big thing to me is the PowerPoints in the
classroom and putting in videoclips and all that.
The more I'm going to put oneof these together.
I try to think that the wordsdon't matter as much.
You've got a few sentences herethat can follow the story, but
the images Right.
I remember kind of laughing atsome of the folks in tech would
wheel the PowerPoint thing intotheir classroom.
(24:24):
Why do you need to do that?
They got a book but the bookcan't project Like.
I showed them an imageyesterday of the Virgin of
Guadalupe.
I said, okay, here's why thisis important in South Texas and
in Mexico.
Because you have a fairly darkskin iteration of the Virgin,
mexican peasants can look up toher Catholicism extremely
(24:46):
important.
The whole visual aspect of thatyou just didn't have before.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
We were in graduate school, remember they didn't
issue us computers.
Our offices didn't havecomputers.
Now, that would be so foreignto walk into any office now and
there is no computer.
Gene has that old photograph hedigs out every once in a while
of us many, many, many, many,many years ago sitting around
with no computers.
I mean, we had a phone.
(25:14):
That was the biggest technologywe had.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
You had the old system where once a semester you
wheeled in the video equipmentand you showed for the whole
hour.
You showed a video, Right.
I can't imagine holding yourattention for an hour with one
video.
You couldn't hold theirattention for an hour.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Well, you can't hold their attention for an hour now,
for anything.
That's how it works.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, not only that, but I remember still having to
load and I knew this because Idid it in high school for all
the teachers how to load a filmprojector.
Then we moved into video, Thenwe moved into DVDs.
Now it's all streaming.
So I've got a whole box of DVDsthat I used to show in class.
Now it's all streaming.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
We had a whole it was a big thing a DVD library where
students could come and checkout historical films and all
that stuff and it was justtaking space and we gave them
away and sold them all hereabout four or five years ago
just to close that down becausethey we didn't need it, because
it was right, it was outside andit didn't work out any uh, you
(26:21):
know, I was doing some researchlast summer and, um, I was in
baton rouge at the lsu archivesand I wanted to look at
something on microfiche andyou've got these very skilled
archivists and they're askingeach other hey, who knows how to
read?
microfiche.
They don't know what it is andthey don't have those machines
(26:42):
anymore.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
No, eventually we got something out there and kind of
managed to print off some pages.
But if I entered a search,especially colonial atlantic
world history, of our resourceshere, so much of it's microfiche
yeah, I wish I could pan over.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I've got sitting in my corner like this, uh, a
microfilm machine that I haveused.
When I get them over, I meanthis thing's years old and it's.
The ones over in the researchlibrary are not even closer with
this looks like and how itworks.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, I remember going to the tech library at
night with a big roll full ofdimes to do the microfilm
printouts from newspapers,dissertation, and that's all
online now.
Oh, here we go.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It's all, yeah's all online now.
Oh, here we go.
It's all it's, yeah, it's.
The technology has changed.
Like she said, you're doingsome research.
Why don't you tell us what?
What are you working on thesedays?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, the last couple of years I've been looking at
soldiers from the US and theMexican American war and how
they personal accounts and UShistory and that kind of very
traditional kind of history.
But you put a cultural spin onit and a religious spin.
These guys will come fromMaryland or Virginia or some
(27:57):
other place in Texas.
They encounter a whole newculture once they get south of
Corpus Christi.
Some of them are Catholics.
In fact I'm in the process ofordering the diary, the journal.
I think he was a Jesuit priestwho went along with the army to
reassure the Mexican people thathey, we're not here to steal
(28:17):
your gold crucifixes, we're notgoing to dishonor your women
much, but they're basicallyselling the US Army to the
Mexican army.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, that was important stuff, right, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
And the more I look into maybe it's because of where
I am, but the more I look intothat era, so much of Texas is
what it is because of that eratheir territorial expansion
where the border is.
Do you see, I read a letterfrom one guy who he was sick.
He's writing back to his wifeand he's saying oh my God, I'm
in Comargo here and it's 115degrees and I have a fever.
(28:54):
It was nice and you cansympathize with that, more than
how many cannons are in thelocal Presidio or something.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, that sounds interesting, so that you're
going to produce a manuscript onthat?
Is that the goal?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Yeah, interesting.
So you're going to produce amanuscript on that.
Is that the goal?
Yeah, yeah, the pace is notsuper fast right now.
Well, nobody wants to.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
We end our podcast with a question to our guests,
giving them the opportunity towax philosophically or to pass
on the nugget of knowledge thatmay spur some young mind to go
off into some sort of just justjust monumental spasms of
(29:36):
intellectualism.
So we ask you chuck way whatyou know what?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
okay, I can only think of like anecdotal things,
but here's something I want tothrow in on a class one day.
Go in and say class, who wasWilliam Jennings Bryan and why?
Was he important Because nobodyknows that anymore.
Oh, he was a guy from Nebraska.
He was a populist, yeah, andthen the Scopes trial,
(30:09):
fundamentalism, all of that.
He's somebody that's.
A lot of people have beenoverlooked in US history, and so
what's the answer?
The answer is learn somethingabout him.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Hey, thanks a lot, Chuck.
Thank you have a great one.
Okay, friends, talk to youlater.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Bye-bye.
A lot, chuck.
Thank you, have a great one.
Okay, friends, talk to youlater.
Bye-bye, bye.
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