June 18, 2024 • 32 mins
Join us in this episode of Talking Texas History as we sit down with Gary Pinkerton. Discover the historical importance of Trammell's Trace, and get a sneak peek into Gary's upcoming projects. He also talks about the Alliance for Texas History, a new organization focused on preserving and promoting Texas history. Stay tuned for updates on Gary's latest book ventures!
Learn more about Gary and his publications at his website: https://garylpinkerton.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
This is Talking Texas History.
Well, welcome to anotheredition of Talking Texas History
(00:45):
.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSosby.
Scott, today we are inHuntsville, texas, and we are at
the East Texas HistoricalAssociation-sponsored New Deal
Symposium.
How long has this been going on?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Well, as we talked about, we started this.
Our very first one was in 2013,and we held in greenville at
the cotton museum, and we'veheld one every year, except for
in 2018.
Uh, some things came up, wedidn't have one and then covid
caused us to lose two, so thisis our ninth one that we've held
, so it's become an institutionnow.
We hold every year, every everyjune.
(01:20):
We hold this.
Next year we'll hold it.
We don't have a location yet.
We're negotiating between acouple of places, but it will be
in June next year for our 10thanniversary of the Texas New
Deal Symposium.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, this week we have actually my ex-neighbor or
you know, lived in theneighborhood.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
He moved out to get away from you, right I?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
don't doubt that.
That's what I'm thinking.
It's Gary Pinkerton.
Gary, welcome to Talking TexasHistory.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thanks, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Gary, you had a lot of things going on in your life
here recently, we're glad tofind.
In fact, it took us a while toget you on because you were so
damn busy.
We had so many things going on.
We're going to get into a lotof those things, but start off
like we almost always do.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Tell us about yourself and particularly, I
think our listeners will be veryinterested in, let's say, the
path you took to studying andwriting about Texas history.
Well, it is.
You know, history discovered me, I have to say, back in around
2004,.
My father made an offhandcomment about Trammell's Trace,
and so when I asked him whatthat was, he said oh, that's
that rut over there across thepasture that you used to play in
when you were a kid and it is arut.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I'm like what.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I looked at my mom and she gave me that look like
you should have been payingattention, and I knew nothing
about it but started to pullthat thread and discovered a lot
of information, not a lot offacts about it.
There had been some researchdone in the 1940s by James and
Mary Dawson.
That was helpful to get started, but I quickly discovered that
(02:57):
that was a major route forimmigration, particularly the
formation of Austin's Colonyright there across the pasture
of our family farm, and so itwas very personal and I'm
terminally curious.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's a good quality to have.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
It is.
It'll be on my headstone.
So, you know, researched a lotof years of back and forth and
my wife and my mother finallyganged up on me and got me past
the footnotes and the indexingand turned that into a book in
2016.
But you know, any researcherhas hopefully a limited number
(03:34):
of rabbit trails that come upwhen you're doing that core
research that you're trying topay attention to.
There are all kinds ofdistractions and I've picked up
a few of those that have turnedinto another book about a
treasure legend in east texas,some spanish expedition or
(03:55):
spanish trails prior to the, theaustin colony, and an
autobiography of the guy whopretended to be a world's
greatest underwater treasurehunter but who actually never
got wet.
That's one of my favorites.
Two of those the Paper Diver isthe title of the book that's
(04:16):
coming out later this year fromMcFarlane, and Bridles and
Biscuits is the book aboutSpanish colonial trails during
that late 17th century.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
There may be some people on here who don't know
anything about Trammell's Trace,and the book won an award.
Right, it's won an award.
So great book, great topic.
But let's tell people whatTrammell's Trace is about and
where.
Your book, if you don't mind,follows that trail Sure.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Trammell's Trace was the first road into Texas used
by Anglos to migrate into thearea of Boston's colony.
So it had been a cattle tradingtrail for centuries and
Trammell essentially followedthe same lines corridors to get
(05:15):
from Fulton, arkansas, at thegreat bend of the Red River it
takes a 90-degree turn there,just outside the Texarkana and
wove down through seven countiesinto Nacogdoches where it
joined up with El Comité Real,which ran east and west.
And you know when I say joinedup most of the roads, there were
(05:37):
more roads around Nacogdochesthan there were through
Nacogdoches, so that's a goodthing.
They were avoiding variousauthorities there over the
decades.
But it really exploded for useby Anglos when news of Austin's
colony came up.
So if somebody's pre-Republicancestors came from Tennessee,
(05:59):
missouri, arkansas, kentucky inthat direction, they likely came
down Trammell's Trace intoTexas.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Tell us something because you know and I think
people you know.
When people hear about a trailand a trace and all these very
things, I think they have somesort of conception in their mind
, like we've been living bypopular culture in movies, like
you know, this is this big wagontrail or something, but it
wasn't.
I mean in the origin, what itlooked like.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Tell people what it really looked like, because I
think they'll be surprised bythat.
Yeah, it was, you know.
I've got a great photo thatRachel Gallant at Kettle Mounds
State Historic Site took of atortoise making its way through
some tall grass and behind itthe grass is pressed down, so
even a turtle can make a trailand with more use they become
wider and and, uh, you know,better defined.
(06:53):
But multiple, multiple accountsof the route from uh Fulton
down to Nacogdoches were thatthe trail was, you know, was
flooded or lost, or, uh, youknow, same thing happens on back
roads now, if it's muddy you doa turnout, or somebody found a
better way, or there were signssaying that the trail goes here.
(07:14):
But it only went to their housebecause they wanted to see some
eggs, had lived in Arkansas andwas enlisted by the military in
1846, I believe to lead theminto Texas.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
But that's how it got the name.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
The name came earlier .
He was credited with makingsome of the trail from the Red
River connection and one branchof Trammell's Trace went up near
Jonesboro, pecan Point,clarksville area and he was
credited with widening thattrail to get some of those
people down into Austin's colony.
But it was very ill-defined andyou know, at that time 21,
(08:00):
trammell was credited with usingchopping axes to widen the
trail to get wagons andlivestock down.
Until that time it was justwide enough for a horse and a
little-used trail is going togrow over just like your
backyard would if you don't tendto it.
Especially in East Texas.
Yeah, no kidding.
So yeah, it was a very not aclearly defined route.
(08:23):
There were no signs, there wereno hotels, there were no hotels
, there were no stopovers.
There were river crossingswhere, you know, depending on
the level of the water, peoplewould pile up behind that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
But a trace is a good name for it.
You know, I always say I wasborn in the right centuries
because I wouldn't want to livein any of that thing.
My idea of roughing it is theydon't put a mint on your pillow
at the end of the night.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I know right.
So I don't want to stay in anyplace like that, With no power.
Here in Huntsville it wouldhave melted, that was.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This brings up something else I want you to put
, because this is really great.
You know there's this whole Idon't know what you call it a
strata in our profession anddiscipline, that some people
like to create division betweenthis idea of academic historians
, lay historians and this typeof thing, and you obviously were
not academically trained as ahistorian, social worker.
But you turned yourself into aresearcher because, it's obvious
(09:12):
, anybody who completes a numberof books you are.
Tell our audience a little bitabout how you came to that and
how you found it, because Ireally want them to know.
Look, you don't have to be thisprofessionally trained
historian to find these types ofresearch principles, so just
kind of talk a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, one of the things I found that served me in
my career that's just kind ofthe way I look at things is that
if I can understand something,I can explain it to people.
I can explain it to people.
So I worked in HR and trainingfor most of my career and being
(09:55):
able to interpret sometimeswordy or obscure or scholarly
efforts to explain history don'tmeet everyone's ears the same
way, Exactly right, and so if Ipull on it hard enough and I'm
able to explain it to myself, Ifeel like I can be a good
interpreter of that informationto others.
And because I want to explainit to myself, that's really
(10:17):
where it starts.
So you know, you know, I got amaster's degree in social work
and had to do a thesis years ago, so I understood how, the rigor
of documentation and whatfootnotes are.
I call footnotes the root canalof writing.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Man, I'm going to remember that, because that's
what it is, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
So a lot of people stop right there at that ledge
before they jump off.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Right, that's a great description.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So I just take it as part of my mission is to explain
these things in a way thatother people who might generate
interest Well I think that'sgreat, because we talk about
this and I say this all the timeis that many, many academic,
professional, historians, if youwant to call it that one of
their biggest failings is wedon't write for everybody and we
(11:13):
just write for each other, andwe have to stop doing that.
And I think, taking yourconcepts is, you're exactly
right.
If we learn to actuallydisseminate the information we
take in a way that everybody canunderstand, we've accomplished
our job.
That's something we need towork for, and we need people
like you to actually do thosetypes of things.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I mean, I think that you know to follow up kind of on
what Scott's saying is I thinkthat you know, as a social
worker it's not a bad backgroundto have, because you're used to
explaining things to people.
Well, in HR you know you'reprofessionally assigned to give
bad news to people, so you haveto learn how to be diplomatic at
(11:51):
least, and that's part of thething, right, and that's what
makes a good teacher or a goodwriter, and not just writing to
your internal constituents, butto be able to write so that
anybody can understand whatyou're talking about.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah, and I'll give credit to my mother here she's
visiting with my wife came upthis weekend to visit us in
Kingwood, and I have to give hercredit because she, since I was
four years old, was readingbooks, and so I'm an incurable
reader.
The bookshelves in our housethat we moved had to be in the
(12:27):
right place, the right order andthe right sequence.
And so being a reader makes alot of difference as well.
But you know, like Scott said,I don't think we have to get
away from that academic poolbecause I'm amazed by highways
and construction and bigprojects like that, and thank
(12:48):
goodness there are a lot ofengineers who do the research
about the span of that bridge,but there's also a group of
people who make it look pleasantand blend into the scenery and
have a nice fit with thelandscape.
Everywhere except Huntsville,apparently, which is like the
biggest span of unconstructedI-45?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
there is, but they're working on it.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
But there's both sides of that coin that need to
take place, and that's a goodanalogy too.
I like that the deep dive hasto take place, but then you have
to say, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
what that really means is this and that's what so
many are about and make itimportant to that person.
You know, what this means is wethink we are, but sometimes we
don't get there and we needpeople to call us on it.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I'm learning my way into it, so I'll let you know
how it goes.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Gary, you've got another book called True
Believers Treasure Hunters onHendricks Lake.
Tell us a little bit about thatstory.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
That was one of those rabbit trails.
Trammell's Trace crossed nearHendricks Lake, which is just at
the point where Panola,harrison and Rusk County joined,
just south of the Sabine River.
The county line between Ruskand Panola.
When Rusk was formed theboundary of two-thirds of Rusk
(14:05):
County was defined as Trammell'sTrace.
So it was as significant, eventhat late, as a river or a
stream that are commonly used asboundaries like that.
But Hendricks Lake was there.
It's a little oxbow lake and youknow I bumped into this
treasure legend that JohnLafitte had stolen some bars of
(14:26):
silver at the Gulf Coast from aSpanish ship, santa Rosa, and
they were traveling apparentlynorth to St Louis to have it
turned into coins when they wereattacked by Spanish soldiers
and they decided to cut loosesix wagon loads of silver into
this three-quarter mile longOxbow Lake in East Texas.
(14:49):
And this treasure legend hadpersisted, no-transcript.
In the 1880s, in the 1890s, oneadventure newspaper writer had
said that there were holes dugon either side of Trammell's
Trace between the Sabine Riverand the lake, people looking for
(15:09):
stuff.
But this treasure legend hasjust popped up about every 30 to
40 years.
Newspaper articles bloom, paperarticles bloom.
And what interested me, in thelate 1950s there was some
significant efforts by a localTV repairman and some Houston
(15:31):
oil men who had some money tolocate this silver again.
There were underwater metaldetectors, there were dynamiting
dredging all kinds of stuffgoing on in the late 50s.
So what was interesting to meabout this folklore were the
people who actually believed itenough to put into that amount
of effort and money.
Right after I did the book, youknow, got a call from the
(15:57):
History Channel.
Really yeah, the very firstepisode of Beyond Oak Island was
about this Hendrix Laketreasure legend.
I got a kind ofbehind-the-scenes view of how
that gets hyped up.
You'll see me in the canoe ormy kayak.
I was riding shotgun and theysay my job was to look for
(16:18):
snakes.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
That was pretty much it not much history in the
history channel well the lost,you know, lost treasure, mines
and stuff are such their trope.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Well, you know, lost the lost dutch mine in arizona,
and well, at least you werelooking for aliens yeah, no, we
didn't have those yet, but jimbowie's there were a lot of
silver mine there were a lot ofmetal sawmill parts in the
bottom that kept metal detectorslit up.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Has anybody found any treasure?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
No, no, there's no treasure there, you don't think
it's fresh.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
No.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I don't think there's anything ever.
The exact same treasure legend,the same story, the same
scenario is played out fromLittle Rockper on the on that
side of the Sabine.
But yeah, there's, there'snothing there but the.
The power of that legend ispretty persistent.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And well, that's great that you can.
You know when you find thesethings that you go into.
I mean, you talk about therabbit holes.
Every time I start doinganything, these rabbit holes get
to me like well, I need to goback and do that and I need to
remember to go back and do that,and I need to just learn to be
focused.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Some of them are good .
The blinders have to go up.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But that's interesting, the fact that these
myths persist and the peoplelike this poor TV repairman guy.
Maybe he was a local crank, Idon't know, but he was very
determined apparently to go outthere and see if this treasure
really was out there.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And you know, invested time and money, and
people do that all the time.
And you know, the question iswhat do these stories really
tell us about ourselves?
Because that's not the onlytreasure story here in Texas,
right?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
No, they're everywhere.
Yeah, yeah, you know this guyhad hung in there.
He was one of those TVrepairmen that answered one of
those ads in the back of a comicbook kind of thing.
Learn to be a TV repairman.
But he was the TV repairman forCarthage.
One of the photos of him in thelocal newspaper showed this
(18:18):
underwater metal detector hebuilt.
That was about the size of awashing machine tub.
Every good treasure hunter,though, if you want to attract
investors, you've got to havesomething to show, and on one of
his dives he pulled up a metalwagon wheel rim, and there's
pictures of him in the newspaper.
(18:41):
His son gave me that wagon wheelrim, so I now have the
Hendricks Lake wagon wheel rimin my backyard it's the size of
a fire hose wagon that theywould have used on the sawmill
and when they destroyed thesawmills on the bank of
Hendricks Lake.
They just threw tons of metalinto the lake and this is one of
(19:01):
the things they found.
But it's the wagon wheel fromLafitte's six wagon loads of
silver.
Of course it is, and I'm proudto have it.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Let's shift gears just a little bit, gary, as
you've come into this and youtalked about becoming a part of
the discipline coming in, you'vebeen a very integral part of a
new organization, the state ofnew organization that is working
to preserve and chronicle andpromote Texas history, called
the Alliance for Texas History.
You're now recently named themanaging director of that new
(19:34):
organization.
Tell us, tell our listeners,what's the organization's
mission, what's its purpose,what's its future, what's it all
about?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Well, the mission of the Alliance is to make sure
that the focus on capital Hhistory about Texas continues to
focus on all people, allcultures, all backgrounds.
There's a lot of history youknow a lot about.
History has become politicized.
We want to get beyond that anddetermine the facts and make you
(20:04):
know sound scholarly decisionsabout what that data means, what
the events mean and actuallywhat happened.
There's a lot of misinformationthat gets shared about
historical events and we're justtrying to make sure that our
focus for the 21st century is toget a sound basis for
(20:28):
continuing our study.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
History.
As you know, all history hasbeen rife full of mythology.
I mean, some of it is part ofthe discipline.
I suppose dealing with thatTexas history may be the most
rife with some of this is partof the discipline.
I suppose dealing with thatTexas history may be the most
ripe with some of those things,a whole lot of it has come
through.
In fact, what we come tobelieve as facts is folklore.
So that's what I think is greatabout a new organization that's
(20:52):
looking at that and trying tokeep the focus on this.
But this is not just anacademically driven organization
organization, is it?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, no, it's not.
I mean the makeup that we'vegot almost 500 members now and
when you look across the boardat the makeup, there's a lot of
people who are not in academicteaching positions or research
positions that are focused onand supporting the effort to get
(21:20):
Texas history on a sound basisand make sure we continue that
way.
So you know, I think a lot ofit is what we just talked about.
My interest in history is totry to interpret it to others.
Soundbite history is so simpleand easy to take into account,
(21:43):
but there's just always morelayers to what really happened.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Well, that's what I think.
That I mean.
We use the word and a lot ofpeople think of this as a
derogatory word.
We talk about inclusive historyand you know we have a whole
lot of controversy becausethings get politicized by things
.
But inclusive, I think, is theright word for something like
this, because it does includeeverybody and everybody's story
is part of it.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, it is.
It's just odd.
I'd like some historian to tellme how inclusive became a bad
word actually.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I would like someone to tell me.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
It seemed like a good thing.
But, yeah, the Texas HistoricalCommission has a part of their
historical markers that focuseson undertold stories, and that's
a good way to say it.
Dionne Babineau, who spoke atour symposium, has an online
museum of undertold stories, andthere's just a lot that gets
(22:38):
ignored.
The session here at the NewDeal Symposium that just
preceded our getting togetherwas talking about two attorneys
that were kind of the underbellyof a campaign by Lyndon Baines
Johnson.
Not very much is known aboutthese pivotal, key people that
were kind of under the radar.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
You know, some people might say look Texas history,
do you need another organization?
We've got the Texas StateHistorical Association, We've
got the East Texas HistoricalAssociation, We've got the South
Texas Historical Association,the West Texas Historical
Association and we had for awhile there the Central Texas
(23:21):
Historical Association.
Is there that much interest inTexas history?
Do we need another organization?
How would you answer somebodywho asked you that?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Well, I think it does seem to get to the point where
you wonder about all thedivisions, and even beyond Texas
history, western.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
History.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Southern History Association.
We have a lot of members in thealliance who aren't residents,
you know, based in Texas, butstill study Texas history or
have an interest in the missionand I think that the direction
that we're trying to take I meanthe organization just fully
formed in March we're looking toadd to a journal.
(24:04):
Next year We'll have our firstannual, we have a one-day
symposium at the end of Apriland we'll have our first annual
conference next May in SanMarcos, and what we're finding
(24:30):
is that the people who arejoining the alliance are
celebrating our mission, whichis to focus on all the history
of Texas in a way that invitesdiscussion and opens people up
to a better understanding ofthose inclusive histories.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Well, I think that's right.
You can't have.
I mean, somebody could saythere's all these different
organizations.
Do you work counter to eachother?
But they don't, because I thinkthe advantageous thing is they
all start working symbiotic yeah, symbiotically with each other.
And I think they do, and evenif they're not fully now, that
there's in the future that couldhappen, and that's that can be
nothing but a good thing.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Well, and you know you and I and you know we we go
to many different historicalassociations.
You know I didn't even includethe 254 local county historical
associations and all thesemuseums, and the beauty is that
it's an association of differentpeople with maybe different
(25:17):
focuses, foci, and that's myacademic.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Thanks, he looked that up before he got here.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
But you know, and sometimes we see the same people
, sometimes we see somebody new,and there's as you say, they're
not exclusive of one another.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
No, and it really the focus.
I've been part of these TexasHistorical Sessions for years
now and growing up in Texas andhaving that the focus of
research, that's the center ofthe universe for me.
But having these local groupsfocus on things in their
particular region or theirparticular county is important.
(25:57):
The difficult part is to findways to draw those things
together is to find ways to drawthose things together.
There's an unwoven tapestry ofinformation out there and trying
to connect people to others whoare interested in similar
topics is really the difficultpart.
We purposely chose Alliance aspart of our name because we
(26:23):
think that is a critical.
Part of that is that comingtogether part not just the
research, not just the academicbackground, but it's that coming
together that will make adifference in what we're trying
to do.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I'd love to see you know I guess we can use
inclusive as another word Ithink it would be great if,
sometime in the near future, allof these organizations to get
together in one place, have aget together in one place.
We all share things with eachother.
That can only be positive.
I don't know if that could everhappen, but I think that would
be positive.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
How big is your backyard?
I haven't seen it.
Well, you know, it depends onwhere my dogs are running at
that time and how much rain it'sbeen and how much.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Gene's backyard might be bigger now, since he doesn't
have a fence.
Yeah, you can use the neighborsTell us we have to have the
obligatory where people can goto join the Alliance or read
more about it.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Give the email address yeah, the Alliance
website is atxhorg oralliancefortexashistoryorg.
You can go to the website there.
Dot org or alliance for texashistory dot org.
You can go to the website there.
You know there's the the usualthings about how to join, what
our mission, our values are.
The one thing I would urgepeople to take a look at is we
have a, an option there calledtexas history news, and what we
(27:38):
do is just curate links tooutside news about news about
history.
So I call it what's what's newabout.
visited it yet Gene what's newabout what's old is the name of
that page.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We haven't had electricity, Scott.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Okay, so you know.
Then we get updates to that,you know, once a week or so,
just pulling in items fromoutside the outside world and
and doing that ATXHorg is thewebsite.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It's a very good website.
Gary designed the website.
Did you really, I did.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
This is a new thing and I don't know, maybe it's
because I'm old enough toremember this, but when the fact
that history we're having apodcast for heaven's sake, the
new social media aspects oforganizations and historical
associations really talks aboutgetting meeting people where
(28:36):
they are and getting theminterested in new ways.
They're not just coming to auniversity to take a class or
you know a continuing ed placeto take a class on history.
Now you can go on YouTube.
You've got to have a goodwebsite and you've got to have
this other information on there,and it takes people who know
how to do that.
It's quite an undertaking thatthe Alliance took in just a few
(28:59):
months.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, you know I'm like the world of this webmaster
, I think now, but I haven'tdone some of that with the East
Texas Historical Association andkind of getting my skills
weaned with Scott and Crystalallowing me to meddle in their
membership and set up.
It was a nice transition andyou know I'll continue to do
(29:25):
some of those type projects forother organizations as well.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah, he's given a lot of his time, folks and
things.
Well, we wish that and we couldtalk about this forever.
We wish that these things couldlast for a long time, but we
are just 30 minutes is all weare and we're coming to the end
of that.
One thing is you know fromlistening to our podcast, we
always give our guests the lastchance to answer the last
question, which is that person'schance to pontificate on
(29:51):
anything they want.
You notice, we don't let Ginaor I pontificate on whatever we
want.
Oh, never.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
That would never happen.
We have to go for three or fourhours on this podcast and we
know the other people are betterthan us.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
So we ask our last question, and it's for you to
just give us something, a gem ofwisdom, what you want to leave
everybody with.
So this is where we've come toGary Pinkerton what?
Speaker 3 (30:10):
do you know, man?
You know, I think there's a lotof social media PTSD among
people.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
That's a good term.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
And it's fundamentally changed the way we
communicate, how we getinformation, how we connect with
others.
I mean, you just ignore all thetrolling and all the crazy
things people say online.
They would never say tosomebody's face, but somehow
we've got to get a grasp on itbecause it is, you know, it's
(30:47):
like erosion in my mind.
It's really chipping away atsome fundamental, foundational
things about the way wecommunicate, the way we research
, the way we do business.
Good and you know good and bad,but it boils down.
I'll come back to my 91-year-oldmother again.
Just be nice to other people,you know, just find ways to
(31:09):
connect with them emotionally.
Just like you know, it wasn'tthe facts of Trammell's Trace
that got me hooked, it was thatemotional connection I felt to
that history.
And so if we find ways to puthistory in a perspective that
makes someone get chill bumps orwonder about their own family
history, or you hand them alittle thread and they start to
(31:31):
pull it because of something yousaid, that's the most valuable
thing that we can do for peopleand what we're trying to
accomplish.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, I think that's great.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
And I think you've done that.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
You've done that.
You know reading your books.
I can't wait to the.
When is the Spanish Trail book?
Speaker 3 (31:46):
It'll probably be next year, next year sometime.
Yeah, I've just got a copyeditor assigned to that one.
Okay, so you have a copy editorassigned, it's about a.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
That's a minimum of a nine-month process.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
That's a fall, yeah, and probably 12 months.
However, the autobiography ofthe treasure hunter will be
sooner than that.
I've got the page proofs anddoing a final, final, final
markup on that with an index.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
So closer.
Well, Gary Pinkerton, thank youso much.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Appreciate it, guys.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Thank you.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
This is Talking Texas History.
Well, welcome to anotheredition of Talking Texas History
(00:45):
.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSosby.
Scott, today we are inHuntsville, texas, and we are at
the East Texas HistoricalAssociation-sponsored New Deal
Symposium.
How long has this been going on?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Well, as we talked about, we started this.
Our very first one was in 2013,and we held in greenville at
the cotton museum, and we'veheld one every year, except for
in 2018.
Uh, some things came up, wedidn't have one and then covid
caused us to lose two, so thisis our ninth one that we've held
, so it's become an institutionnow.
We hold every year, every everyjune.
(01:20):
We hold this.
Next year we'll hold it.
We don't have a location yet.
We're negotiating between acouple of places, but it will be
in June next year for our 10thanniversary of the Texas New
Deal Symposium.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, this week we have actually my ex-neighbor or
you know, lived in theneighborhood.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
He moved out to get away from you, right I?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
don't doubt that.
That's what I'm thinking.
It's Gary Pinkerton.
Gary, welcome to Talking TexasHistory.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thanks, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Gary, you had a lot of things going on in your life
here recently, we're glad tofind.
In fact, it took us a while toget you on because you were so
damn busy.
We had so many things going on.
We're going to get into a lotof those things, but start off
like we almost always do.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Tell us about yourself and particularly, I
think our listeners will be veryinterested in, let's say, the
path you took to studying andwriting about Texas history.
Well, it is.
You know, history discovered me, I have to say, back in around
2004,.
My father made an offhandcomment about Trammell's Trace,
and so when I asked him whatthat was, he said oh, that's
that rut over there across thepasture that you used to play in
when you were a kid and it is arut.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I'm like what.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I looked at my mom and she gave me that look like
you should have been payingattention, and I knew nothing
about it but started to pullthat thread and discovered a lot
of information, not a lot offacts about it.
There had been some researchdone in the 1940s by James and
Mary Dawson.
That was helpful to get started, but I quickly discovered that
(02:57):
that was a major route forimmigration, particularly the
formation of Austin's Colonyright there across the pasture
of our family farm, and so itwas very personal and I'm
terminally curious.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's a good quality to have.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
It is.
It'll be on my headstone.
So, you know, researched a lotof years of back and forth and
my wife and my mother finallyganged up on me and got me past
the footnotes and the indexingand turned that into a book in
2016.
But you know, any researcherhas hopefully a limited number
(03:34):
of rabbit trails that come upwhen you're doing that core
research that you're trying topay attention to.
There are all kinds ofdistractions and I've picked up
a few of those that have turnedinto another book about a
treasure legend in east texas,some spanish expedition or
(03:55):
spanish trails prior to the, theaustin colony, and an
autobiography of the guy whopretended to be a world's
greatest underwater treasurehunter but who actually never
got wet.
That's one of my favorites.
Two of those the Paper Diver isthe title of the book that's
(04:16):
coming out later this year fromMcFarlane, and Bridles and
Biscuits is the book aboutSpanish colonial trails during
that late 17th century.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
There may be some people on here who don't know
anything about Trammell's Trace,and the book won an award.
Right, it's won an award.
So great book, great topic.
But let's tell people whatTrammell's Trace is about and
where.
Your book, if you don't mind,follows that trail Sure.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Trammell's Trace was the first road into Texas used
by Anglos to migrate into thearea of Boston's colony.
So it had been a cattle tradingtrail for centuries and
Trammell essentially followedthe same lines corridors to get
(05:15):
from Fulton, arkansas, at thegreat bend of the Red River it
takes a 90-degree turn there,just outside the Texarkana and
wove down through seven countiesinto Nacogdoches where it
joined up with El Comité Real,which ran east and west.
And you know when I say joinedup most of the roads, there were
(05:37):
more roads around Nacogdochesthan there were through
Nacogdoches, so that's a goodthing.
They were avoiding variousauthorities there over the
decades.
But it really exploded for useby Anglos when news of Austin's
colony came up.
So if somebody's pre-Republicancestors came from Tennessee,
(05:59):
missouri, arkansas, kentucky inthat direction, they likely came
down Trammell's Trace intoTexas.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Tell us something because you know and I think
people you know.
When people hear about a trailand a trace and all these very
things, I think they have somesort of conception in their mind
, like we've been living bypopular culture in movies, like
you know, this is this big wagontrail or something, but it
wasn't.
I mean in the origin, what itlooked like.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Tell people what it really looked like, because I
think they'll be surprised bythat.
Yeah, it was, you know.
I've got a great photo thatRachel Gallant at Kettle Mounds
State Historic Site took of atortoise making its way through
some tall grass and behind itthe grass is pressed down, so
even a turtle can make a trailand with more use they become
wider and and, uh, you know,better defined.
(06:53):
But multiple, multiple accountsof the route from uh Fulton
down to Nacogdoches were thatthe trail was, you know, was
flooded or lost, or, uh, youknow, same thing happens on back
roads now, if it's muddy you doa turnout, or somebody found a
better way, or there were signssaying that the trail goes here.
(07:14):
But it only went to their housebecause they wanted to see some
eggs, had lived in Arkansas andwas enlisted by the military in
1846, I believe to lead theminto Texas.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
But that's how it got the name.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
The name came earlier .
He was credited with makingsome of the trail from the Red
River connection and one branchof Trammell's Trace went up near
Jonesboro, pecan Point,clarksville area and he was
credited with widening thattrail to get some of those
people down into Austin's colony.
But it was very ill-defined andyou know, at that time 21,
(08:00):
trammell was credited with usingchopping axes to widen the
trail to get wagons andlivestock down.
Until that time it was justwide enough for a horse and a
little-used trail is going togrow over just like your
backyard would if you don't tendto it.
Especially in East Texas.
Yeah, no kidding.
So yeah, it was a very not aclearly defined route.
(08:23):
There were no signs, there wereno hotels, there were no hotels
, there were no stopovers.
There were river crossingswhere, you know, depending on
the level of the water, peoplewould pile up behind that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
But a trace is a good name for it.
You know, I always say I wasborn in the right centuries
because I wouldn't want to livein any of that thing.
My idea of roughing it is theydon't put a mint on your pillow
at the end of the night.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I know right.
So I don't want to stay in anyplace like that, With no power.
Here in Huntsville it wouldhave melted, that was.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This brings up something else I want you to put
, because this is really great.
You know there's this whole Idon't know what you call it a
strata in our profession anddiscipline, that some people
like to create division betweenthis idea of academic historians
, lay historians and this typeof thing, and you obviously were
not academically trained as ahistorian, social worker.
But you turned yourself into aresearcher because, it's obvious
(09:12):
, anybody who completes a numberof books you are.
Tell our audience a little bitabout how you came to that and
how you found it, because Ireally want them to know.
Look, you don't have to be thisprofessionally trained
historian to find these types ofresearch principles, so just
kind of talk a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, one of the things I found that served me in
my career that's just kind ofthe way I look at things is that
if I can understand something,I can explain it to people.
I can explain it to people.
So I worked in HR and trainingfor most of my career and being
(09:55):
able to interpret sometimeswordy or obscure or scholarly
efforts to explain history don'tmeet everyone's ears the same
way, Exactly right, and so if Ipull on it hard enough and I'm
able to explain it to myself, Ifeel like I can be a good
interpreter of that informationto others.
And because I want to explainit to myself, that's really
(10:17):
where it starts.
So you know, you know, I got amaster's degree in social work
and had to do a thesis years ago, so I understood how, the rigor
of documentation and whatfootnotes are.
I call footnotes the root canalof writing.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Man, I'm going to remember that, because that's
what it is, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
So a lot of people stop right there at that ledge
before they jump off.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Right, that's a great description.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So I just take it as part of my mission is to explain
these things in a way thatother people who might generate
interest Well I think that'sgreat, because we talk about
this and I say this all the timeis that many, many academic,
professional, historians, if youwant to call it that one of
their biggest failings is wedon't write for everybody and we
(11:13):
just write for each other, andwe have to stop doing that.
And I think, taking yourconcepts is, you're exactly
right.
If we learn to actuallydisseminate the information we
take in a way that everybody canunderstand, we've accomplished
our job.
That's something we need towork for, and we need people
like you to actually do thosetypes of things.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I mean, I think that you know to follow up kind of on
what Scott's saying is I thinkthat you know, as a social
worker it's not a bad backgroundto have, because you're used to
explaining things to people.
Well, in HR you know you'reprofessionally assigned to give
bad news to people, so you haveto learn how to be diplomatic at
(11:51):
least, and that's part of thething, right, and that's what
makes a good teacher or a goodwriter, and not just writing to
your internal constituents, butto be able to write so that
anybody can understand whatyou're talking about.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah, and I'll give credit to my mother here she's
visiting with my wife came upthis weekend to visit us in
Kingwood, and I have to give hercredit because she, since I was
four years old, was readingbooks, and so I'm an incurable
reader.
The bookshelves in our housethat we moved had to be in the
(12:27):
right place, the right order andthe right sequence.
And so being a reader makes alot of difference as well.
But you know, like Scott said,I don't think we have to get
away from that academic poolbecause I'm amazed by highways
and construction and bigprojects like that, and thank
(12:48):
goodness there are a lot ofengineers who do the research
about the span of that bridge,but there's also a group of
people who make it look pleasantand blend into the scenery and
have a nice fit with thelandscape.
Everywhere except Huntsville,apparently, which is like the
biggest span of unconstructedI-45?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
there is, but they're working on it.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
But there's both sides of that coin that need to
take place, and that's a goodanalogy too.
I like that the deep dive hasto take place, but then you have
to say, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
what that really means is this and that's what so
many are about and make itimportant to that person.
You know, what this means is wethink we are, but sometimes we
don't get there and we needpeople to call us on it.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
I'm learning my way into it, so I'll let you know
how it goes.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Gary, you've got another book called True
Believers Treasure Hunters onHendricks Lake.
Tell us a little bit about thatstory.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
That was one of those rabbit trails.
Trammell's Trace crossed nearHendricks Lake, which is just at
the point where Panola,harrison and Rusk County joined,
just south of the Sabine River.
The county line between Ruskand Panola.
When Rusk was formed theboundary of two-thirds of Rusk
(14:05):
County was defined as Trammell'sTrace.
So it was as significant, eventhat late, as a river or a
stream that are commonly used asboundaries like that.
But Hendricks Lake was there.
It's a little oxbow lake and youknow I bumped into this
treasure legend that JohnLafitte had stolen some bars of
(14:26):
silver at the Gulf Coast from aSpanish ship, santa Rosa, and
they were traveling apparentlynorth to St Louis to have it
turned into coins when they wereattacked by Spanish soldiers
and they decided to cut loosesix wagon loads of silver into
this three-quarter mile longOxbow Lake in East Texas.
(14:49):
And this treasure legend hadpersisted, no-transcript.
In the 1880s, in the 1890s, oneadventure newspaper writer had
said that there were holes dugon either side of Trammell's
Trace between the Sabine Riverand the lake, people looking for
(15:09):
stuff.
But this treasure legend hasjust popped up about every 30 to
40 years.
Newspaper articles bloom, paperarticles bloom.
And what interested me, in thelate 1950s there was some
significant efforts by a localTV repairman and some Houston
(15:31):
oil men who had some money tolocate this silver again.
There were underwater metaldetectors, there were dynamiting
dredging all kinds of stuffgoing on in the late 50s.
So what was interesting to meabout this folklore were the
people who actually believed itenough to put into that amount
of effort and money.
Right after I did the book, youknow, got a call from the
(15:57):
History Channel.
Really yeah, the very firstepisode of Beyond Oak Island was
about this Hendrix Laketreasure legend.
I got a kind ofbehind-the-scenes view of how
that gets hyped up.
You'll see me in the canoe ormy kayak.
I was riding shotgun and theysay my job was to look for
(16:18):
snakes.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
That was pretty much it not much history in the
history channel well the lost,you know, lost treasure, mines
and stuff are such their trope.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Well, you know, lost the lost dutch mine in arizona,
and well, at least you werelooking for aliens yeah, no, we
didn't have those yet, but jimbowie's there were a lot of
silver mine there were a lot ofmetal sawmill parts in the
bottom that kept metal detectorslit up.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Has anybody found any treasure?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
No, no, there's no treasure there, you don't think
it's fresh.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
No.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I don't think there's anything ever.
The exact same treasure legend,the same story, the same
scenario is played out fromLittle Rockper on the on that
side of the Sabine.
But yeah, there's, there'snothing there but the.
The power of that legend ispretty persistent.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And well, that's great that you can.
You know when you find thesethings that you go into.
I mean, you talk about therabbit holes.
Every time I start doinganything, these rabbit holes get
to me like well, I need to goback and do that and I need to
remember to go back and do that,and I need to just learn to be
focused.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Some of them are good .
The blinders have to go up.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But that's interesting, the fact that these
myths persist and the peoplelike this poor TV repairman guy.
Maybe he was a local crank, Idon't know, but he was very
determined apparently to go outthere and see if this treasure
really was out there.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And you know, invested time and money, and
people do that all the time.
And you know, the question iswhat do these stories really
tell us about ourselves?
Because that's not the onlytreasure story here in Texas,
right?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
No, they're everywhere.
Yeah, yeah, you know this guyhad hung in there.
He was one of those TVrepairmen that answered one of
those ads in the back of a comicbook kind of thing.
Learn to be a TV repairman.
But he was the TV repairman forCarthage.
One of the photos of him in thelocal newspaper showed this
(18:18):
underwater metal detector hebuilt.
That was about the size of awashing machine tub.
Every good treasure hunter,though, if you want to attract
investors, you've got to havesomething to show, and on one of
his dives he pulled up a metalwagon wheel rim, and there's
pictures of him in the newspaper.
(18:41):
His son gave me that wagon wheelrim, so I now have the
Hendricks Lake wagon wheel rimin my backyard it's the size of
a fire hose wagon that theywould have used on the sawmill
and when they destroyed thesawmills on the bank of
Hendricks Lake.
They just threw tons of metalinto the lake and this is one of
(19:01):
the things they found.
But it's the wagon wheel fromLafitte's six wagon loads of
silver.
Of course it is, and I'm proudto have it.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Let's shift gears just a little bit, gary, as
you've come into this and youtalked about becoming a part of
the discipline coming in, you'vebeen a very integral part of a
new organization, the state ofnew organization that is working
to preserve and chronicle andpromote Texas history, called
the Alliance for Texas History.
You're now recently named themanaging director of that new
(19:34):
organization.
Tell us, tell our listeners,what's the organization's
mission, what's its purpose,what's its future, what's it all
about?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Well, the mission of the Alliance is to make sure
that the focus on capital Hhistory about Texas continues to
focus on all people, allcultures, all backgrounds.
There's a lot of history youknow a lot about.
History has become politicized.
We want to get beyond that anddetermine the facts and make you
(20:04):
know sound scholarly decisionsabout what that data means, what
the events mean and actuallywhat happened.
There's a lot of misinformationthat gets shared about
historical events and we're justtrying to make sure that our
focus for the 21st century is toget a sound basis for
(20:28):
continuing our study.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
History.
As you know, all history hasbeen rife full of mythology.
I mean, some of it is part ofthe discipline.
I suppose dealing with thatTexas history may be the most
rife with some of this is partof the discipline.
I suppose dealing with thatTexas history may be the most
ripe with some of those things,a whole lot of it has come
through.
In fact, what we come tobelieve as facts is folklore.
So that's what I think is greatabout a new organization that's
(20:52):
looking at that and trying tokeep the focus on this.
But this is not just anacademically driven organization
organization, is it?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, no, it's not.
I mean the makeup that we'vegot almost 500 members now and
when you look across the boardat the makeup, there's a lot of
people who are not in academicteaching positions or research
positions that are focused onand supporting the effort to get
(21:20):
Texas history on a sound basisand make sure we continue that
way.
So you know, I think a lot ofit is what we just talked about.
My interest in history is totry to interpret it to others.
Soundbite history is so simpleand easy to take into account,
(21:43):
but there's just always morelayers to what really happened.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Well, that's what I think.
That I mean.
We use the word and a lot ofpeople think of this as a
derogatory word.
We talk about inclusive historyand you know we have a whole
lot of controversy becausethings get politicized by things
.
But inclusive, I think, is theright word for something like
this, because it does includeeverybody and everybody's story
is part of it.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, it is.
It's just odd.
I'd like some historian to tellme how inclusive became a bad
word actually.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I would like someone to tell me.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
It seemed like a good thing.
But, yeah, the Texas HistoricalCommission has a part of their
historical markers that focuseson undertold stories, and that's
a good way to say it.
Dionne Babineau, who spoke atour symposium, has an online
museum of undertold stories, andthere's just a lot that gets
(22:38):
ignored.
The session here at the NewDeal Symposium that just
preceded our getting togetherwas talking about two attorneys
that were kind of the underbellyof a campaign by Lyndon Baines
Johnson.
Not very much is known aboutthese pivotal, key people that
were kind of under the radar.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
You know, some people might say look Texas history,
do you need another organization?
We've got the Texas StateHistorical Association, We've
got the East Texas HistoricalAssociation, We've got the South
Texas Historical Association,the West Texas Historical
Association and we had for awhile there the Central Texas
(23:21):
Historical Association.
Is there that much interest inTexas history?
Do we need another organization?
How would you answer somebodywho asked you that?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Well, I think it does seem to get to the point where
you wonder about all thedivisions, and even beyond Texas
history, western.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
History.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Southern History Association.
We have a lot of members in thealliance who aren't residents,
you know, based in Texas, butstill study Texas history or
have an interest in the missionand I think that the direction
that we're trying to take I meanthe organization just fully
formed in March we're looking toadd to a journal.
(24:04):
Next year We'll have our firstannual, we have a one-day
symposium at the end of Apriland we'll have our first annual
conference next May in SanMarcos, and what we're finding
(24:30):
is that the people who arejoining the alliance are
celebrating our mission, whichis to focus on all the history
of Texas in a way that invitesdiscussion and opens people up
to a better understanding ofthose inclusive histories.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Well, I think that's right.
You can't have.
I mean, somebody could saythere's all these different
organizations.
Do you work counter to eachother?
But they don't, because I thinkthe advantageous thing is they
all start working symbiotic yeah, symbiotically with each other.
And I think they do, and evenif they're not fully now, that
there's in the future that couldhappen, and that's that can be
nothing but a good thing.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Well, and you know you and I and you know we we go
to many different historicalassociations.
You know I didn't even includethe 254 local county historical
associations and all thesemuseums, and the beauty is that
it's an association of differentpeople with maybe different
(25:17):
focuses, foci, and that's myacademic.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Thanks, he looked that up before he got here.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
But you know, and sometimes we see the same people
, sometimes we see somebody new,and there's as you say, they're
not exclusive of one another.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
No, and it really the focus.
I've been part of these TexasHistorical Sessions for years
now and growing up in Texas andhaving that the focus of
research, that's the center ofthe universe for me.
But having these local groupsfocus on things in their
particular region or theirparticular county is important.
(25:57):
The difficult part is to findways to draw those things
together is to find ways to drawthose things together.
There's an unwoven tapestry ofinformation out there and trying
to connect people to others whoare interested in similar
topics is really the difficultpart.
We purposely chose Alliance aspart of our name because we
(26:23):
think that is a critical.
Part of that is that comingtogether part not just the
research, not just the academicbackground, but it's that coming
together that will make adifference in what we're trying
to do.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I'd love to see you know I guess we can use
inclusive as another word Ithink it would be great if,
sometime in the near future, allof these organizations to get
together in one place, have aget together in one place.
We all share things with eachother.
That can only be positive.
I don't know if that could everhappen, but I think that would
be positive.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
How big is your backyard?
I haven't seen it.
Well, you know, it depends onwhere my dogs are running at
that time and how much rain it'sbeen and how much.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Gene's backyard might be bigger now, since he doesn't
have a fence.
Yeah, you can use the neighborsTell us we have to have the
obligatory where people can goto join the Alliance or read
more about it.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Give the email address yeah, the Alliance
website is atxhorg oralliancefortexashistoryorg.
You can go to the website there.
Dot org or alliance for texashistory dot org.
You can go to the website there.
You know there's the the usualthings about how to join, what
our mission, our values are.
The one thing I would urgepeople to take a look at is we
have a, an option there calledtexas history news, and what we
(27:38):
do is just curate links tooutside news about news about
history.
So I call it what's what's newabout.
visited it yet Gene what's newabout what's old is the name of
that page.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We haven't had electricity, Scott.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Okay, so you know.
Then we get updates to that,you know, once a week or so,
just pulling in items fromoutside the outside world and
and doing that ATXHorg is thewebsite.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It's a very good website.
Gary designed the website.
Did you really, I did.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
This is a new thing and I don't know, maybe it's
because I'm old enough toremember this, but when the fact
that history we're having apodcast for heaven's sake, the
new social media aspects oforganizations and historical
associations really talks aboutgetting meeting people where
(28:36):
they are and getting theminterested in new ways.
They're not just coming to auniversity to take a class or
you know a continuing ed placeto take a class on history.
Now you can go on YouTube.
You've got to have a goodwebsite and you've got to have
this other information on there,and it takes people who know
how to do that.
It's quite an undertaking thatthe Alliance took in just a few
(28:59):
months.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, you know I'm like the world of this webmaster
, I think now, but I haven'tdone some of that with the East
Texas Historical Association andkind of getting my skills
weaned with Scott and Crystalallowing me to meddle in their
membership and set up.
It was a nice transition andyou know I'll continue to do
(29:25):
some of those type projects forother organizations as well.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah, he's given a lot of his time, folks and
things.
Well, we wish that and we couldtalk about this forever.
We wish that these things couldlast for a long time, but we
are just 30 minutes is all weare and we're coming to the end
of that.
One thing is you know fromlistening to our podcast, we
always give our guests the lastchance to answer the last
question, which is that person'schance to pontificate on
(29:51):
anything they want.
You notice, we don't let Ginaor I pontificate on whatever we
want.
Oh, never.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
That would never happen.
We have to go for three or fourhours on this podcast and we
know the other people are betterthan us.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
So we ask our last question, and it's for you to
just give us something, a gem ofwisdom, what you want to leave
everybody with.
So this is where we've come toGary Pinkerton what?
Speaker 3 (30:10):
do you know, man?
You know, I think there's a lotof social media PTSD among
people.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
That's a good term.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
And it's fundamentally changed the way we
communicate, how we getinformation, how we connect with
others.
I mean, you just ignore all thetrolling and all the crazy
things people say online.
They would never say tosomebody's face, but somehow
we've got to get a grasp on itbecause it is, you know, it's
(30:47):
like erosion in my mind.
It's really chipping away atsome fundamental, foundational
things about the way wecommunicate, the way we research
, the way we do business.
Good and you know good and bad,but it boils down.
I'll come back to my 91-year-oldmother again.
Just be nice to other people,you know, just find ways to
(31:09):
connect with them emotionally.
Just like you know, it wasn'tthe facts of Trammell's Trace
that got me hooked, it was thatemotional connection I felt to
that history.
And so if we find ways to puthistory in a perspective that
makes someone get chill bumps orwonder about their own family
history, or you hand them alittle thread and they start to
(31:31):
pull it because of something yousaid, that's the most valuable
thing that we can do for peopleand what we're trying to
accomplish.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, I think that's great.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
And I think you've done that.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
You've done that.
You know reading your books.
I can't wait to the.
When is the Spanish Trail book?
Speaker 3 (31:46):
It'll probably be next year, next year sometime.
Yeah, I've just got a copyeditor assigned to that one.
Okay, so you have a copy editorassigned, it's about a.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
That's a minimum of a nine-month process.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
That's a fall, yeah, and probably 12 months.
However, the autobiography ofthe treasure hunter will be
sooner than that.
I've got the page proofs anddoing a final, final, final
markup on that with an index.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
So closer.
Well, Gary Pinkerton, thank youso much.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Appreciate it, guys.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Thank you.
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