January 16, 2024 • 31 mins
Join us as we sit down with the remarkable Fred Allison, a West Texas native and Marine Corps veteran. From his formative years on a cotton farm to his adventures as a radar intercept officer, Fred's tale intertwines the threads of academia, military service, and personal discovery.
This episode is a treasure trove as we explore Fred's unwavering passion for history, his work as a historian for the Marine Corps and his commitment to honoring the valiant stories of those who served. We talk about his latest work, My Darling Boys: A Family at War, 1941-1947 (UNT Press, 2023), where he explores his family's wartime experiences during World War II.
Get a copy of Fred's book, My Darling Boys at Amazon https://a.co/d/67Bw4JY
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by.
It does not reflect the viewsof the institutions that employ
us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the family.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
(00:36):
I'm Gene Parois.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm Scott Sozby, gene .
Today we have somebody that weprobably don't want to know how
to say how long we've known himfor.
That might date us is correct,right?
Somebody we went to graduateschool with and we've known him
for a long time.
He's had quite the very careerWe've got Fred Allison with us
today.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, this poor guy was my office mate.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That is terrible for him to have to go through that I
know, and he still talks to me.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So, Fred welcome to Talking Texas History.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, glad to be here and I really appreciate the
opportunity to be part of yourshow.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, we're really glad you agreed to join us, and
I'll tell you and I hate to saythis, you know, with old friends
, but sometimes you don't talkto them as often, and the one
thing that you came out withthat we want to talk about today
is you've got a new book out.
(01:34):
But before we get there, let'stell the listeners, who may just
be here in the name FredAllison for the first time, a
little bit about you and whereyou're from.
You're from up in West Texas,right at the top of Texas, right
that's right, right at the topof Texas, up in the Pantanal.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
There I was raised on a West Texas cotton farm
outside of Mule Shoe, texas.
Actually it's on Highway 70between Mule Shoe and Earth.
So that's quite distinguishedupbringing there.
And, yeah, my dad and my unclewho are main characters in the
(02:17):
book my dad, harold Allison, wasin a farming partnership with
his brother, oscar Allison, andthey farmed about close to 2000
acres there outside of Mule Shoeand also a farm in Tulia, texas
, and so that's where I grew up.
I've done a lot of hard workthere, raising cotton and
(02:39):
irrigating, okay.
And then I graduated from highschool in New York In 1968 and
decided to attend North TexasState University and play the
major in journalism.
But I was having way too goodof time at the time when I began
(03:01):
college to really accomplishmuch, and so I actually was on
probation and even expelled onacademic.
No way, yeah, two times.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Your early college career sounds a whole lot like
mine.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Yeah.
So anyway, I remember getting aletter from the dean that went
to my parents too, said we'llgive you one more chance.
I'll never forget one morechance.
So that's when I knew the timehad come, that I had to do it.
And so I did, and pretty muchafter that I was on the dean's
(03:43):
list.
But I changed my major tosecondary education because I
was avoiding foreign languages.
And a friend of mine said ifyou majored in secondary
education you could still getall the history classes you
wanted and not have to takeforeign languages.
Well, that's why I gotcertified as a teacher,
(04:07):
secondary level teacher andafter I graduated I was
wondering what to do with mylife, and my dad and my uncles
had all been aviators in themilitary.
So that was something I'dalways aspire to myself, and I
joined the Marine Corps in orderto do that, because the Marine
Corps offered me an aviationcontract and sort of a guarantee
(04:33):
to go to flight training.
It didn't guarantee that you'regoing to finish flight training
, At least you would get a shotat it.
But so that's what I did andentered the Marine Corps, and
that was one of the best thingsthat ever happened in my life,
because the Marine Corps hasreally been good to me and a lot
better to me than I was forthem.
(04:58):
But went through officerstraining, OCS and the basic
school, Then went down toPensacola for flight training
and ended up being a navalflight officer in the F-4
Phantom fighter aircraft sort ofa Vietnam air fighter.
That all the services flow isvery common.
It's just a great airplane.
(05:18):
My official title guys in theback were called radar intercept
officers and what you did wasyour main job was basically a
weapon system type operator andradar.
Do the radar work in order todo intercepts?
(05:39):
In order to do intercepts, youoperate the radar to find an
enemy aircraft and then you setup a, An intercept, a direction
that you can know.
You can fly your plane tointercept the enemy aircraft.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So you were the one who actually pulled the trigger.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
No, we didn't have any.
They didn't trust us with atrigger in the back, but besides
that, we also backed up thepilot on everything else.
In fact, if you get in a dogfight you, the Rio radar
intercept officer, has a veryimportant function, mainly to
(06:23):
help the pilot keep sight and Todirect the pilot in which way
to turn or do this or do that.
When the pilot often can't seethe enemy aircraft he's fighting
because it might be behind himor or someplace in a Good Rio
never loses sight.
So if you never lose sight ofthe enemy aircraft, you're gonna
(06:44):
be a great.
You're gonna be a great, be agreat real.
And the pilots love you, youknow.
So that's what we did, andthere was a lot to it.
So did that?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
and how long were you in the service?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I was on active duty for about six and a half years
and Then got off of activeactive duty and went into the
reserves.
So I flew the F war out of NavyDallas after I got off active
duty and we had lived and wewere living in Greenville, texas
(07:22):
at that time and, yes, I hadgot married to my, to my bride,
martha McCall in Yuma, and we'restill married now after 45.
Better get this right 44.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
You don't mess this up, fred.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And yeah, cuz she's sitting right here but and four
kids later, but anyway, inGreenville, after got out I
wanted to teach school.
That was in my mind all along.
So I did teach in the middleschool in Greenville and, and
Marty was teaching too.
So we were doing good.
(08:03):
But the problem arose when sheshe got pregnant, we got
pregnant and Having the kids arepretty consistently there.
So I had to find a betterpaying job and I was still with
the reserves, which helps some.
(08:23):
But I got a job with a companycalled roadway express, which is
a trucking company and I was aBasically a manager Kind of did
everything at a small Cityterminal in Greenville and it
paid really good.
So I did that for about nineyears and After, after Martha,
(08:48):
my wife, marty, was able to goback to teaching when our
youngest child or four childStarted school.
Okay, so that's when I startedworking my master's degree over
at East Texas State University,or as it's known now, texas A&M
(09:08):
Commerce, and I just had somegreat, great instructors there
and as I moved along to mymaster's, had to get a thesis
project and Dr James Conrad Idon't know if you don't know he
was the oral historian there.
Yeah, jim, really well yeahsuper guy and he kind of took me
(09:31):
under his wing and and said whydon't you do a thesis on major
field in Greenville, texas,which was a airbase in World War
two it was dropped intoGreenville and do sort of a
Social history on the impactthat a a big base would have on
(09:53):
a little Texas Southern town?
And so that's what I did andthat's when I got into oral
history too, because I starteddoing a lot of interviews with
locals that had been there andwill work too.
And that was just fascinatingand Thank God I finished that up
and I Think Dr Conrad said whydon't you see if the Newspaper
(10:18):
in Greenville would beinterested in publishing that?
Because you know it's all aboutlocal history and World War two
and stuff.
And sure enough they did.
They published the whole thing.
It was like an 11 series of 11issues and and that just sort of
hitting that is.
That's the first time I reallythought I could write something
(10:40):
that people.
It's just an amazing feeling tothink that somebody was going
to read something that I wrote,you know that's much of it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'm still amazed he may read anything I write, so I
understand.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
That was actually.
You were kind of leveragingthat early interest in
journalism and writing andinterviewing as well right and
kind of marrying those to your.
But you said you sound like youhad a passion for history even
as an undergraduate.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well, even as a young boy I remember reading books on
history a lot and one of mydad's friends, a very impressive
gentleman, just out of theclear blue one day gave me a
little book.
I must have been like eight ornine years old.
He gave me a book on World WarII and that's sort of I mean
that I was sort of a parent, Iguess the people that I really
(11:34):
liked history, especiallymilitary history.
So anyway, you know, I've hadan abiding interest in that, I
guess all my life really.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Well, I didn't realize.
I mean, I guess I did, but Iguess I knew this but reminded
the fact that you had studiedunder Conrad.
And you know, I gotta say JimConrad was one of the nicest
people I'd ever met and when Iwas doing my dissertation under
(12:06):
at Tech, there under bar, I wentand Conrad helped me out a lot
too because I was doing gettingon a topic on a politician up
there from from Paris.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So yeah, jim, when I took over here, these text talks
.
Of course Jim is a prominentmember and he was really good to
me in that.
Well, fred, you went on afteryou finished graduate school and
you went to work, went back tothe Marine Corps as you served
as a historian for the MarineCorps.
A lot of people may not knowwhat that.
You know that the all themilitary branches employ these
(12:41):
historians.
So tell everybody kind of whatyou did as a historian for the
Marine Corps.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Okay, yeah, I had continued to serve in the
reserve so I still had anattachment with the Marine Corps
and my as I got on later in mycareer I was promoted to major
and but anyway my airplane wentaway and it was replaced by an
airplane that did not have a guyin the back.
(13:10):
So really I didn't have a jobin the Marine Corps.
But as a reservist you can kindof shop around and see if
there's other billets that youmight get could serve in.
And so a guy told me.
He said you know, the MarineCorps has a history division and
I'd started working on my PhDat that time, so people were
(13:31):
aware of that.
And they said the Marine Corpshas a history division that uses
reserve officers to do fieldhistory work.
He said I want you to see ifyou can get into that
organization.
Well, it was in DC and I was inLubbock at this time.
I'd started my PhD program atTexas Tech.
But anyway, I checked with themand sure enough, I was able to
(13:54):
get into that organization andbecause I lived so far away,
they allowed me to just come inand do all of my drills, that's
the weekend drills that you'resupposed to accomplish.
They allowed me to sort ofstack them and come in and do
(14:15):
like a third of the years likedo four drills, four weekend
drills at one time, and so theywere very helpful there.
And anyway I did that as fieldhistorian in uniform with the
Marine Corps for two years andretired.
(14:37):
That's when I retired.
Okay, so then back to Lubbockand finished up my PhD program,
the coursework and whatnot, andthen after about four years they
had a position come over andfor an oral historian as a
civilian at the Marine Corpshistory division and up in DC.
(15:00):
I was in DC at that time and Iapplied for that and I got that
job because I had been a.
It really helped that I was afield historian and so I had
become associated with thatorganization.
So anyway, that required a movefrom Lubbock to Virginia and we
(15:21):
ended up living in Frederickburg, virginia, but just a real
blessing and I served there like20 years, almost 20 years, so
actually they gave me like 43years in the Marine Corps.
I never, I had never intendedthat.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
That's a long time.
That's it.
That's putting your service infor absolute.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, it was just like I said.
The Marine Corps has been very,very good to me and I just got
some, had some great, was ableto serve with great people and
there's still friends with a lotof them.
And you know, you hear a lot ofpeople talk about the Marine
Corps.
It's always about you know howsort of rough and tough it is,
(16:09):
but it's that.
But it's also they take care oftheir people.
You know, once you're part ofit and you sort of prove and you
can do a credible job, theytake care of you.
They really do so.
But again, a lot of that timewas as a reservist, so it's not
like full time for 43 years, butso but yeah, the services all
(16:31):
do.
They have history organizationsand most of them will all over
much bigger than the MarineCorps.
When I was there in the historydivision they only have like
five or six historians or asother services like the Air
Force or Army or Navy they'llhave, they'll just have bevies
(16:52):
of them and they're allscattered out all over the
United States.
You know, of course they're allbigger services too, but still.
But it was, and my job was, asI said, oral historian, and so
what I got to do was do a lot ofinterviews.
I think I did about 1,100interviews in that 20 years.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
What was your probably most memorable
interview you did with somebody?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Oh yeah, I wouldn't have to say that my most, my
most memorable interview wouldbe, of course, the one I did
this book on that was publishedby North Texas Press to the
World War Two veteran who wasactually from Mule Chateau and
(17:42):
he lived up in Fredericksburg.
But he was just an amazing manand he had been in some of the
most ferocious battles, or twolike Guadalcanal, terawa, saipan
, leading a 37 millimeter gunplatoon, and anyway, I
(18:03):
interviewed him about 30 hours.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, they.
My organization, the historydivision, was very gracious and
allowing me to spend that muchtime on one man or you know,
there's so many other people youcould interview that have done
great things, but they allow meto do that and it turned into a
book.
I edited the interviews andpublished and actually got an
(18:33):
award from the Marine CorpsHeritage Foundation for best
biography career 2018.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Was that the one with Roy Elrod?
Yeah, the.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Roy Elrod book.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Right, we were going to die.
We were going to win or diethere.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, it's a water canal, yeah this exact quote
said that the Marines were not,they were not going to surrender
, they they would die therebefore they would you know,
before they would surrender.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well, you've got a new one coming out, right, you
got a new book coming out justabout to come out, yeah, from
UNT Press, my Darling Boys, afamily awards, a very personal
book.
Won't you tell us about, tellour audience about, how you came
up with that book?
And then did you learnsomething about your family?
And tell us about the booksabout, and did you learn
something about your family?
You didn't know, maybe, whyyou're doing.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, it was really illuminating because, going out
of course, my heroes were my, mydad, who had been a B-25
co-pilot, and his partner andfarming, oscar, who had been a
B-24 turret gunner flightengineer but had been a POW in
Germany, and Lord too.
And then there was thismysterious uncle who was their
(19:48):
younger brother, who had beenkilled.
He was a fighter pilot and hadbeen killed, and they they
really nobody really seemed toknow how he had been killed.
So it was just a.
It was a great, greatinvestigation finding out
exactly how he had been killed,and it was in dogfight against
(20:13):
German fighters.
But, yeah, so much brotherstuff to I, because, though, the
book is about the home fronttoo, not just the brothers that
went to war, but also the familyto stay behind, and so I was
able to do research on World Wartwo, farming and New Mexico.
(20:36):
They were, and their farm wasoutside of Roswell, new Mexico,
and a little town calledHagerman, and my mother's family
.
They were neighbors, so yeahjust learning about those, those
families, and how, how theirlives changed in World War two
(20:59):
and some of the activities thatthey they participated there on
the home front.
These are sacrifices they made.
That was all new to me and thatwas tough to find that
information out because and itreally not, you know, like most
family records they don't reallyrecord what their day-to-day
activities are.
But I was very fortunate thatthere was a large stock of
(21:24):
letters amongst the familymembers.
I think I used 71 letters inthe book and there was many more
that I didn't use.
Well, not many, but maybe 20years, seven, 20 or 30, right,
or they're talking their writingletters to each other, from the
people at home, from the familyat home, to the, to the boys at
(21:48):
war, and they're can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
That and I try to think about that time.
You know, so many, so many ofthem, of the men were often so
much uncertainty about wherethey were going to come back and
then so many Sacrifices andthey were having to make on the
front, home front, and I can'thelp always think I mean, you
know, I don't know that we woulddo that as a nation today.
I don't know if we have thewhat would be the word
intestinal fortitude to gothrough something like that now.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, no, well, I think they actually Scott, I
think they actually they all.
They worried about the samething at that time, to whether
Americans really had the theintestinal fortitude to to make
those sacrifices.
But they did.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
They Dank your day, that's without a doubt.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, we worked out so the title of there the title
of the book Fred.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
That comes from something your grandmother wrote
correct, right, yeah, the boysmother Ali Rizal.
She'd actually been Ali Allisonbefore, but the older boys
father had died, his name of theAllison first and she remarried
(23:01):
to why they grizzled.
So that's sort of confusing.
But yeah, in many of herletters she will refer to her
boys with great affection, likemy darlin, this or that, or even
she even calls so calls themher baby boy, calls them her
baby boy.
I said they had a tremendousamount of affection for her she
(23:23):
was.
She was such a hard-workingmother and I just know that she
would Just did everythingpossible to Raves a good family.
Did you know her?
Yeah, yeah, sure did grandma.
Yeah, she was a.
She was a very Sort of austerewoman, very thin, petite, of
(23:47):
course very nice.
But you know the death of heryounger son, wiley, grizzled
junior.
He was killed in the war andReally I think it really
Traumatized her, a type of PTSDeven right now she just bore
that with her and so she wasjust not not a really Not a
(24:11):
really happy, joyful.
She was always Just a littlebit reticent, I'm just.
She was just suffering fromthat part of the.
Imagine shit.
For so long she did not knowall she knew that he was missing
in action and so for years Well, like years, many months, it
(24:36):
was over a year she did not know.
Can you just imagine livingwith that?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I can't, man, that's got to be um, but that's just
got to be heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, and then and then, when they did report that
he was killed in action, theyweren't able to prove it.
There was no body, there was.
No one saw him crash, theydidn't really know what, and she
was not convinced that he wasdead for the longest time.
So that's a yeah, that's.
(25:11):
But she was a great woman, justyou know, full of love, and it
was, um, there's a great, agreat role model for her.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Had this book, fred, kind of been in the back of your
mind for a long time to do, andit was just when you got the
time, or just the inclination todo it.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
No, after I retired, I started looking into it.
My uncle, oscar, had written amemoir in 1973.
And I had a copy of that andI'd sort of I'd looked at it and
I'd read it.
But when I pulled it out againin 2020, I mean 2020, after I
(25:53):
retired, and I started realreally reading it and focusing
on it and I said, hey, this is apretty pretty good story.
He's a he was a good writer,the very smart man, but he was
able to tell a great story.
You know, which is the key tobeing a good writer?
Actually, he's telling a story.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, and so he was able to do that.
He had sort of a sarcastic, uhjaundice view of life and his
experiences.
He was, he, never purported tobe any kind of a hero.
The only thing that he wasproud of was that he kept what
he said in his memoirs.
He kept his family together,which were the other crewmen on
(26:37):
his B24 that had all been madePOWs, all the enlisted men
anyway, and he kind of kept themtogether that sort of a
self-protective, protectiveorganization against the
conditions they were in in theGerman prisoner war camps.
But uh, yeah, he's uh kind ofnonchalant about a lot of stuff.
(27:02):
And then, if you do, your didsome research on the events that
he was talking about, theconditions in the prisoner war
camps.
They were really bad, but henever really focused on how
miserable they were.
He would, he was sort of, uh,you know, skim over it and um,
(27:23):
just uh, I think, because hedidn't want to do anything.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
I think that's a lot.
You know, I found that I hadgreat uncles who were in World
War II and I you couldn't getthem to talk about it and it was
like pulling teeth to get themto talk about their experiences.
And I think I always said about.
I think it was because it wasnot something they wanted to
relive in the large degree.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
That's right.
Yeah, it would stir up thoseother emotions and, uh, they,
they were afraid of him.
And he even has a disclaimer.
He put a disclaimer in hismemoir saying that, uh, he would
try to tell the tell about theevents as he remembered them,
(28:08):
not over glamorize them, butthere were a lot of, a lot of
things that he was not going tosay and he'd been trying to
forget those things since 1944.
Wow, yeah, so that's the, uh,that's the part that I wish I
had.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
It's absolutely passing.
I think everybody's,everybody's listening to this.
Now, all of you, uh, make sureyou get out there and buy that
book.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Fred, I'm going to say this is that I think you did
your family proud.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Well, that's what I was trying to do.
I was trying to honor you knowthat because I know my uncle,
oscar, by writing his memoir,was trying to honor his fellow
serviceman, his fellow crewmanand uh, and produce something
that would last thing and beappropriate for their service.
(29:05):
But there was like he saidthere were so much that was
really ugly about that, but hewas not, he was not going to, he
was not going to bring that out.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Well, it's a good book and I hope that people will
will pick it up, order it.
It's put out by University ofNorth Texas Press and, uh, it is
.
It is a moving, moving story.
I mean it's, uh, it's, it's,it's, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
No, thank you, Gene.
I take that as a greatcompliment coming from you,
knowing what you have done inthe historical field, so I
really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Well, you're very kind, you're very kind.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Well, Fred was growing to the end of our time
and they always goes way toofast for us.
And, of course, when we'reending up, we always ask
everyone of our uh uh people wehave on there the last question,
and this is your chance to givepearls of wisdom to everybody
out there as much as you chance.
So, Fred Allison, what do youknow?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Okay, what I know is that God is faithful.
I, uh, I became a Christian along time ago and uh, I've, uh,
I've trusted, uh, I've trustedGod with so many big decisions
and sometimes we don'tunderstand.
You know why things are goingthe way they are, but if you
(30:37):
keep your faith, even whenyou're not faithful, god will be
faithful to you and uh, buteventually, if you keep your
faith, things are going to workout.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
That's, uh, that's my pearl of wisdom and that may be
that may be the best one we'veever had.
Well, fred, thanks for coming.
This has been great.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, Thank you very much again.
I really appreciate theopportunity to talk about uh,
talk about this book.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Once again, folks, it's my darling boy.
It's a family of war.
Uh, university of North TexasPress.
Uh, hot off the presses verysoon.
So make uh you can.
You can go on the website rightnow.
Uh, in order.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Absolutely Great book .
Great book, Fred.
Thank you so much.
Uh, it was a real honor to beyour office mate and to still
keep in touch with you.
We need to get together soon.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, we're all close.
Hey, every October we have EastTexas Historical Association
meeting.
Uh, fred, you need to come up.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Okay, well, again, gene, and, uh, scott, in the
office next door.
It was a pleasure being therewith you, it really was.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
And, uh, we had.
We talked about it often.
It was a fun time.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And we survived.
And uh, here we are, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Thanks for it.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Okay, yeah.
This podcast is not sponsored by.
It does not reflect the viewsof the institutions that employ
us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the family.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
(00:36):
I'm Gene Parois.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm Scott Sozby, gene .
Today we have somebody that weprobably don't want to know how
to say how long we've known himfor.
That might date us is correct,right?
Somebody we went to graduateschool with and we've known him
for a long time.
He's had quite the very careerWe've got Fred Allison with us
today.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, this poor guy was my office mate.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That is terrible for him to have to go through that I
know, and he still talks to me.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So, Fred welcome to Talking Texas History.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, glad to be here and I really appreciate the
opportunity to be part of yourshow.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, we're really glad you agreed to join us, and
I'll tell you and I hate to saythis, you know, with old friends
, but sometimes you don't talkto them as often, and the one
thing that you came out withthat we want to talk about today
is you've got a new book out.
(01:34):
But before we get there, let'stell the listeners, who may just
be here in the name FredAllison for the first time, a
little bit about you and whereyou're from.
You're from up in West Texas,right at the top of Texas, right
that's right, right at the topof Texas, up in the Pantanal.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
There I was raised on a West Texas cotton farm
outside of Mule Shoe, texas.
Actually it's on Highway 70between Mule Shoe and Earth.
So that's quite distinguishedupbringing there.
And, yeah, my dad and my unclewho are main characters in the
(02:17):
book my dad, harold Allison, wasin a farming partnership with
his brother, oscar Allison, andthey farmed about close to 2000
acres there outside of Mule Shoeand also a farm in Tulia, texas
, and so that's where I grew up.
I've done a lot of hard workthere, raising cotton and
(02:39):
irrigating, okay.
And then I graduated from highschool in New York In 1968 and
decided to attend North TexasState University and play the
major in journalism.
But I was having way too goodof time at the time when I began
(03:01):
college to really accomplishmuch, and so I actually was on
probation and even expelled onacademic.
No way, yeah, two times.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Your early college career sounds a whole lot like
mine.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Yeah.
So anyway, I remember getting aletter from the dean that went
to my parents too, said we'llgive you one more chance.
I'll never forget one morechance.
So that's when I knew the timehad come, that I had to do it.
And so I did, and pretty muchafter that I was on the dean's
(03:43):
list.
But I changed my major tosecondary education because I
was avoiding foreign languages.
And a friend of mine said ifyou majored in secondary
education you could still getall the history classes you
wanted and not have to takeforeign languages.
Well, that's why I gotcertified as a teacher,
(04:07):
secondary level teacher andafter I graduated I was
wondering what to do with mylife, and my dad and my uncles
had all been aviators in themilitary.
So that was something I'dalways aspire to myself, and I
joined the Marine Corps in orderto do that, because the Marine
Corps offered me an aviationcontract and sort of a guarantee
(04:33):
to go to flight training.
It didn't guarantee that you'regoing to finish flight training
, At least you would get a shotat it.
But so that's what I did andentered the Marine Corps, and
that was one of the best thingsthat ever happened in my life,
because the Marine Corps hasreally been good to me and a lot
better to me than I was forthem.
(04:58):
But went through officerstraining, OCS and the basic
school, Then went down toPensacola for flight training
and ended up being a navalflight officer in the F-4
Phantom fighter aircraft sort ofa Vietnam air fighter.
That all the services flow isvery common.
It's just a great airplane.
(05:18):
My official title guys in theback were called radar intercept
officers and what you did wasyour main job was basically a
weapon system type operator andradar.
Do the radar work in order todo intercepts?
(05:39):
In order to do intercepts, youoperate the radar to find an
enemy aircraft and then you setup a, An intercept, a direction
that you can know.
You can fly your plane tointercept the enemy aircraft.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So you were the one who actually pulled the trigger.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
No, we didn't have any.
They didn't trust us with atrigger in the back, but besides
that, we also backed up thepilot on everything else.
In fact, if you get in a dogfight you, the Rio radar
intercept officer, has a veryimportant function, mainly to
(06:23):
help the pilot keep sight and Todirect the pilot in which way
to turn or do this or do that.
When the pilot often can't seethe enemy aircraft he's fighting
because it might be behind himor or someplace in a Good Rio
never loses sight.
So if you never lose sight ofthe enemy aircraft, you're gonna
(06:44):
be a great.
You're gonna be a great, be agreat real.
And the pilots love you, youknow.
So that's what we did, andthere was a lot to it.
So did that?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
and how long were you in the service?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I was on active duty for about six and a half years
and Then got off of activeactive duty and went into the
reserves.
So I flew the F war out of NavyDallas after I got off active
duty and we had lived and wewere living in Greenville, texas
(07:22):
at that time and, yes, I hadgot married to my, to my bride,
martha McCall in Yuma, and we'restill married now after 45.
Better get this right 44.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
You don't mess this up, fred.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And yeah, cuz she's sitting right here but and four
kids later, but anyway, inGreenville, after got out I
wanted to teach school.
That was in my mind all along.
So I did teach in the middleschool in Greenville and, and
Marty was teaching too.
So we were doing good.
(08:03):
But the problem arose when sheshe got pregnant, we got
pregnant and Having the kids arepretty consistently there.
So I had to find a betterpaying job and I was still with
the reserves, which helps some.
(08:23):
But I got a job with a companycalled roadway express, which is
a trucking company and I was aBasically a manager Kind of did
everything at a small Cityterminal in Greenville and it
paid really good.
So I did that for about nineyears and After, after Martha,
(08:48):
my wife, marty, was able to goback to teaching when our
youngest child or four childStarted school.
Okay, so that's when I startedworking my master's degree over
at East Texas State University,or as it's known now, texas A&M
(09:08):
Commerce, and I just had somegreat, great instructors there
and as I moved along to mymaster's, had to get a thesis
project and Dr James Conrad Idon't know if you don't know he
was the oral historian there.
Yeah, jim, really well yeahsuper guy and he kind of took me
(09:31):
under his wing and and said whydon't you do a thesis on major
field in Greenville, texas,which was a airbase in World War
two it was dropped intoGreenville and do sort of a
Social history on the impactthat a a big base would have on
(09:53):
a little Texas Southern town?
And so that's what I did andthat's when I got into oral
history too, because I starteddoing a lot of interviews with
locals that had been there andwill work too.
And that was just fascinatingand Thank God I finished that up
and I Think Dr Conrad said whydon't you see if the Newspaper
(10:18):
in Greenville would beinterested in publishing that?
Because you know it's all aboutlocal history and World War two
and stuff.
And sure enough they did.
They published the whole thing.
It was like an 11 series of 11issues and and that just sort of
hitting that is.
That's the first time I reallythought I could write something
(10:40):
that people.
It's just an amazing feeling tothink that somebody was going
to read something that I wrote,you know that's much of it.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'm still amazed he may read anything I write, so I
understand.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
That was actually.
You were kind of leveragingthat early interest in
journalism and writing andinterviewing as well right and
kind of marrying those to your.
But you said you sound like youhad a passion for history even
as an undergraduate.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well, even as a young boy I remember reading books on
history a lot and one of mydad's friends, a very impressive
gentleman, just out of theclear blue one day gave me a
little book.
I must have been like eight ornine years old.
He gave me a book on World WarII and that's sort of I mean
that I was sort of a parent, Iguess the people that I really
(11:34):
liked history, especiallymilitary history.
So anyway, you know, I've hadan abiding interest in that, I
guess all my life really.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Well, I didn't realize.
I mean, I guess I did, but Iguess I knew this but reminded
the fact that you had studiedunder Conrad.
And you know, I gotta say JimConrad was one of the nicest
people I'd ever met and when Iwas doing my dissertation under
(12:06):
at Tech, there under bar, I wentand Conrad helped me out a lot
too because I was doing gettingon a topic on a politician up
there from from Paris.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So yeah, jim, when I took over here, these text talks
.
Of course Jim is a prominentmember and he was really good to
me in that.
Well, fred, you went on afteryou finished graduate school and
you went to work, went back tothe Marine Corps as you served
as a historian for the MarineCorps.
A lot of people may not knowwhat that.
You know that the all themilitary branches employ these
(12:41):
historians.
So tell everybody kind of whatyou did as a historian for the
Marine Corps.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Okay, yeah, I had continued to serve in the
reserve so I still had anattachment with the Marine Corps
and my as I got on later in mycareer I was promoted to major
and but anyway my airplane wentaway and it was replaced by an
airplane that did not have a guyin the back.
(13:10):
So really I didn't have a jobin the Marine Corps.
But as a reservist you can kindof shop around and see if
there's other billets that youmight get could serve in.
And so a guy told me.
He said you know, the MarineCorps has a history division and
I'd started working on my PhDat that time, so people were
(13:31):
aware of that.
And they said the Marine Corpshas a history division that uses
reserve officers to do fieldhistory work.
He said I want you to see ifyou can get into that
organization.
Well, it was in DC and I was inLubbock at this time.
I'd started my PhD program atTexas Tech.
But anyway, I checked with themand sure enough, I was able to
(13:54):
get into that organization andbecause I lived so far away,
they allowed me to just come inand do all of my drills, that's
the weekend drills that you'resupposed to accomplish.
They allowed me to sort ofstack them and come in and do
(14:15):
like a third of the years likedo four drills, four weekend
drills at one time, and so theywere very helpful there.
And anyway I did that as fieldhistorian in uniform with the
Marine Corps for two years andretired.
(14:37):
That's when I retired.
Okay, so then back to Lubbockand finished up my PhD program,
the coursework and whatnot, andthen after about four years they
had a position come over andfor an oral historian as a
civilian at the Marine Corpshistory division and up in DC.
(15:00):
I was in DC at that time and Iapplied for that and I got that
job because I had been a.
It really helped that I was afield historian and so I had
become associated with thatorganization.
So anyway, that required a movefrom Lubbock to Virginia and we
(15:21):
ended up living in Frederickburg, virginia, but just a real
blessing and I served there like20 years, almost 20 years, so
actually they gave me like 43years in the Marine Corps.
I never, I had never intendedthat.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
That's a long time.
That's it.
That's putting your service infor absolute.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, it was just like I said.
The Marine Corps has been very,very good to me and I just got
some, had some great, was ableto serve with great people and
there's still friends with a lotof them.
And you know, you hear a lot ofpeople talk about the Marine
Corps.
It's always about you know howsort of rough and tough it is,
(16:09):
but it's that.
But it's also they take care oftheir people.
You know, once you're part ofit and you sort of prove and you
can do a credible job, theytake care of you.
They really do so.
But again, a lot of that timewas as a reservist, so it's not
like full time for 43 years, butso but yeah, the services all
(16:31):
do.
They have history organizationsand most of them will all over
much bigger than the MarineCorps.
When I was there in the historydivision they only have like
five or six historians or asother services like the Air
Force or Army or Navy they'llhave, they'll just have bevies
(16:52):
of them and they're allscattered out all over the
United States.
You know, of course they're allbigger services too, but still.
But it was, and my job was, asI said, oral historian, and so
what I got to do was do a lot ofinterviews.
I think I did about 1,100interviews in that 20 years.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
What was your probably most memorable
interview you did with somebody?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Oh yeah, I wouldn't have to say that my most, my
most memorable interview wouldbe, of course, the one I did
this book on that was publishedby North Texas Press to the
World War Two veteran who wasactually from Mule Chateau and
(17:42):
he lived up in Fredericksburg.
But he was just an amazing manand he had been in some of the
most ferocious battles, or twolike Guadalcanal, terawa, saipan
, leading a 37 millimeter gunplatoon, and anyway, I
(18:03):
interviewed him about 30 hours.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, they.
My organization, the historydivision, was very gracious and
allowing me to spend that muchtime on one man or you know,
there's so many other people youcould interview that have done
great things, but they allow meto do that and it turned into a
book.
I edited the interviews andpublished and actually got an
(18:33):
award from the Marine CorpsHeritage Foundation for best
biography career 2018.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Was that the one with Roy Elrod?
Yeah, the.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Roy Elrod book.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Right, we were going to die.
We were going to win or diethere.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, it's a water canal, yeah this exact quote
said that the Marines were not,they were not going to surrender
, they they would die therebefore they would you know,
before they would surrender.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well, you've got a new one coming out, right, you
got a new book coming out justabout to come out, yeah, from
UNT Press, my Darling Boys, afamily awards, a very personal
book.
Won't you tell us about, tellour audience about, how you came
up with that book?
And then did you learnsomething about your family?
And tell us about the booksabout, and did you learn
something about your family?
You didn't know, maybe, whyyou're doing.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, it was really illuminating because, going out
of course, my heroes were my, mydad, who had been a B-25
co-pilot, and his partner andfarming, oscar, who had been a
B-24 turret gunner flightengineer but had been a POW in
Germany, and Lord too.
And then there was thismysterious uncle who was their
(19:48):
younger brother, who had beenkilled.
He was a fighter pilot and hadbeen killed, and they they
really nobody really seemed toknow how he had been killed.
So it was just a.
It was a great, greatinvestigation finding out
exactly how he had been killed,and it was in dogfight against
(20:13):
German fighters.
But, yeah, so much brotherstuff to I, because, though, the
book is about the home fronttoo, not just the brothers that
went to war, but also the familyto stay behind, and so I was
able to do research on World Wartwo, farming and New Mexico.
(20:36):
They were, and their farm wasoutside of Roswell, new Mexico,
and a little town calledHagerman, and my mother's family
.
They were neighbors, so yeahjust learning about those, those
families, and how, how theirlives changed in World War two
(20:59):
and some of the activities thatthey they participated there on
the home front.
These are sacrifices they made.
That was all new to me and thatwas tough to find that
information out because and itreally not, you know, like most
family records they don't reallyrecord what their day-to-day
activities are.
But I was very fortunate thatthere was a large stock of
(21:24):
letters amongst the familymembers.
I think I used 71 letters inthe book and there was many more
that I didn't use.
Well, not many, but maybe 20years, seven, 20 or 30, right,
or they're talking their writingletters to each other, from the
people at home, from the familyat home, to the, to the boys at
(21:48):
war, and they're can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
That and I try to think about that time.
You know, so many, so many ofthem, of the men were often so
much uncertainty about wherethey were going to come back and
then so many Sacrifices andthey were having to make on the
front, home front, and I can'thelp always think I mean, you
know, I don't know that we woulddo that as a nation today.
I don't know if we have thewhat would be the word
intestinal fortitude to gothrough something like that now.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, no, well, I think they actually Scott, I
think they actually they all.
They worried about the samething at that time, to whether
Americans really had the theintestinal fortitude to to make
those sacrifices.
But they did.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
They Dank your day, that's without a doubt.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, we worked out so the title of there the title
of the book Fred.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
That comes from something your grandmother wrote
correct, right, yeah, the boysmother Ali Rizal.
She'd actually been Ali Allisonbefore, but the older boys
father had died, his name of theAllison first and she remarried
(23:01):
to why they grizzled.
So that's sort of confusing.
But yeah, in many of herletters she will refer to her
boys with great affection, likemy darlin, this or that, or even
she even calls so calls themher baby boy, calls them her
baby boy.
I said they had a tremendousamount of affection for her she
(23:23):
was.
She was such a hard-workingmother and I just know that she
would Just did everythingpossible to Raves a good family.
Did you know her?
Yeah, yeah, sure did grandma.
Yeah, she was a.
She was a very Sort of austerewoman, very thin, petite, of
(23:47):
course very nice.
But you know the death of heryounger son, wiley, grizzled
junior.
He was killed in the war andReally I think it really
Traumatized her, a type of PTSDeven right now she just bore
that with her and so she wasjust not not a really Not a
(24:11):
really happy, joyful.
She was always Just a littlebit reticent, I'm just.
She was just suffering fromthat part of the.
Imagine shit.
For so long she did not knowall she knew that he was missing
in action and so for years Well, like years, many months, it
(24:36):
was over a year she did not know.
Can you just imagine livingwith that?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I can't, man, that's got to be um, but that's just
got to be heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, and then and then, when they did report that
he was killed in action, theyweren't able to prove it.
There was no body, there was.
No one saw him crash, theydidn't really know what, and she
was not convinced that he wasdead for the longest time.
So that's a yeah, that's.
(25:11):
But she was a great woman, justyou know, full of love, and it
was, um, there's a great, agreat role model for her.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Had this book, fred, kind of been in the back of your
mind for a long time to do, andit was just when you got the
time, or just the inclination todo it.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
No, after I retired, I started looking into it.
My uncle, oscar, had written amemoir in 1973.
And I had a copy of that andI'd sort of I'd looked at it and
I'd read it.
But when I pulled it out againin 2020, I mean 2020, after I
(25:53):
retired, and I started realreally reading it and focusing
on it and I said, hey, this is apretty pretty good story.
He's a he was a good writer,the very smart man, but he was
able to tell a great story.
You know, which is the key tobeing a good writer?
Actually, he's telling a story.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, and so he was able to do that.
He had sort of a sarcastic, uhjaundice view of life and his
experiences.
He was, he, never purported tobe any kind of a hero.
The only thing that he wasproud of was that he kept what
he said in his memoirs.
He kept his family together,which were the other crewmen on
(26:37):
his B24 that had all been madePOWs, all the enlisted men
anyway, and he kind of kept themtogether that sort of a
self-protective, protectiveorganization against the
conditions they were in in theGerman prisoner war camps.
But uh, yeah, he's uh kind ofnonchalant about a lot of stuff.
(27:02):
And then, if you do, your didsome research on the events that
he was talking about, theconditions in the prisoner war
camps.
They were really bad, but henever really focused on how
miserable they were.
He would, he was sort of, uh,you know, skim over it and um,
(27:23):
just uh, I think, because hedidn't want to do anything.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
I think that's a lot.
You know, I found that I hadgreat uncles who were in World
War II and I you couldn't getthem to talk about it and it was
like pulling teeth to get themto talk about their experiences.
And I think I always said about.
I think it was because it wasnot something they wanted to
relive in the large degree.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
That's right.
Yeah, it would stir up thoseother emotions and, uh, they,
they were afraid of him.
And he even has a disclaimer.
He put a disclaimer in hismemoir saying that, uh, he would
try to tell the tell about theevents as he remembered them,
(28:08):
not over glamorize them, butthere were a lot of, a lot of
things that he was not going tosay and he'd been trying to
forget those things since 1944.
Wow, yeah, so that's the, uh,that's the part that I wish I
had.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
It's absolutely passing.
I think everybody's,everybody's listening to this.
Now, all of you, uh, make sureyou get out there and buy that
book.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Fred, I'm going to say this is that I think you did
your family proud.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Well, that's what I was trying to do.
I was trying to honor you knowthat because I know my uncle,
oscar, by writing his memoir,was trying to honor his fellow
serviceman, his fellow crewmanand uh, and produce something
that would last thing and beappropriate for their service.
(29:05):
But there was like he saidthere were so much that was
really ugly about that, but hewas not, he was not going to, he
was not going to bring that out.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Well, it's a good book and I hope that people will
will pick it up, order it.
It's put out by University ofNorth Texas Press and, uh, it is
.
It is a moving, moving story.
I mean it's, uh, it's, it's,it's, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
No, thank you, Gene.
I take that as a greatcompliment coming from you,
knowing what you have done inthe historical field, so I
really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Well, you're very kind, you're very kind.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Well, Fred was growing to the end of our time
and they always goes way toofast for us.
And, of course, when we'reending up, we always ask
everyone of our uh uh people wehave on there the last question,
and this is your chance to givepearls of wisdom to everybody
out there as much as you chance.
So, Fred Allison, what do youknow?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Okay, what I know is that God is faithful.
I, uh, I became a Christian along time ago and uh, I've, uh,
I've trusted, uh, I've trustedGod with so many big decisions
and sometimes we don'tunderstand.
You know why things are goingthe way they are, but if you
(30:37):
keep your faith, even whenyou're not faithful, god will be
faithful to you and uh, buteventually, if you keep your
faith, things are going to workout.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
That's, uh, that's my pearl of wisdom and that may be
that may be the best one we'veever had.
Well, fred, thanks for coming.
This has been great.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, Thank you very much again.
I really appreciate theopportunity to talk about uh,
talk about this book.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Once again, folks, it's my darling boy.
It's a family of war.
Uh, university of North TexasPress.
Uh, hot off the presses verysoon.
So make uh you can.
You can go on the website rightnow.
Uh, in order.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Absolutely Great book .
Great book, Fred.
Thank you so much.
Uh, it was a real honor to beyour office mate and to still
keep in touch with you.
We need to get together soon.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, we're all close.
Hey, every October we have EastTexas Historical Association
meeting.
Uh, fred, you need to come up.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Okay, well, again, gene, and, uh, scott, in the
office next door.
It was a pleasure being therewith you, it really was.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
And, uh, we had.
We talked about it often.
It was a fun time.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And we survived.
And uh, here we are, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Thanks for it.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Okay, yeah.
Popular Podcasts
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!