February 27, 2024 • 44 mins
Colin Doherty from Sundog Charters joins us to reveal the thrills of pioneering fuel delivery throughout Alaska's secluded communities. As we chart the course of Sundog Charters' evolution, we uncover the meticulous dance with regulations and nature's whims that underpin the lifeblood of Alaskan remote delivery. Colin crafts a vivid picture of the strategic pivot from utilizing DOT-regulated trucks to direct deck tank pumping—a move spurred by regulatory pressures and a staunch dedication to environmental stewardship. Our candid conversation ebbs and flows through the challenges, unveiling the company's collaboration with ADEC in fortifying oil spill prevention—a lighthouse guiding the way in risk aversion. Strap in for an auditory expedition that celebrates the people and the spirit that pulses through the veins of the Last Frontier.
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Sundog Charters, LLC
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Shannon (00:00):
Good morning, welcome to season two of Tank Talk.
I'm here today with ColinDaugherty from Sundog Charters
and we're going to talk about areally unique form of field
delivery that exists in thestate of Alaska, and I am so
pleased that Colin is joining usthis morning to talk about it,
because I really appreciate thatit solved a high-risk activity
with a really unique solutionand I'm excited to go down the
(00:24):
road that Colin and his teamwent through to obtain that
safer method of delivery.
And Colin and I have known eachother for a really long time,
all the way back when I workedwith the state of Alaska, I
think he and I, if I'mremembering right, Colin, we did
a spill drill in Dutch Harbormany moons ago.
Colin (00:40):
Yeah, I think I have memories of Dutch Harbor and
maybe Dillingham, Bristol Bay,for you know, could have been a
hub visit.
Maybe you were visiting one ofthe member Chadux member
companies.
Shannon (00:54):
Colin, could you briefly introduce yourself, tell
us about yourself and then sortof give us a brief history of
Sundog Charters?
Because obviously when I metyou we were working with Shadow,
which is now the Shadow network, but at some point you split
off.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour background and how Sundog
Charters came to be.
Colin (01:11):
Okay, well, thanks, and yeah, I'm looking forward to
this conversation.
Yeah, I worked for AlaskaChadux back starting in 2006
through 2015.
I was a mariner, has been havebeen a mariner since the mid 90s
.
I moved from the Midwest, whereI grew up, down to the Virgin
(01:33):
Islands.
Shannon (01:34):
Don't know why I left, but were you, were you a mariner
in Minnesota, though Is there alot of marine environments in
Minnesota.
Colin (01:43):
Chicago.
So I started great boarding onthe Great Lakes and I thought
I'd take a break from the wintertime and but down in the Virgin
Islands I got involved with adive group, a commercial diving
outfit that did a lot of work atthe refinery there, the Hovenza
refinery.
So that's how I got into theoil industry and then eventually
(02:04):
got a job as a captain on anOSRV at the refinery.
So that's how I I segwayed intospill response.
Shannon (02:13):
So hold on.
So for our listeners that arenot as familiar, osrv is oil
spill response vessel.
Colin (02:18):
Yes, so 110 foot vessel equipped with spill response
gear, kind of ready to go andbecause of the regulations.
But yeah, my wife and I gottired of all the perfect weather
and decided to move to Alaskaand Shadow was looking for a
(02:38):
spill tech and and I had, youknow, a little experience now
working for an OSRO and oilspill removal organization.
So that's how I came to Alaska,was working for Alaska Chadux,
although I had done a little bitof work in Alaska prior, which
(02:58):
got me working in Prince WilliamSound on a tour boat, but I
also worked for Peregrine Marine.
Oh, yeah.
And they build bow pickers.
That's Jeff Johnson.
But Jeff Johnson is kind of thelanding craft at least the
smaller aluminum landing craftguru in Alaska.
(03:19):
So I really learned a lot abouthim.
And I also met Delbert Henryworking for Peregrine and he's
my now partner with Sun ogCharters.
Shannon (03:31):
So tell me, tell me more about Sun og Charters.
I'm familiar with your groupbecause you do a lot of work out
of Homer and Kodiak, but youalso serve many of the
communities along the way.
So maybe just sort of describewhat Sun og is and how it got
started.
Colin (03:46):
Yeah.
So we started in 2015 and I bythen had become a little burned
out with the spill industry justthe phone calls at three in the
morning, you know.
It was nothing.
I really enjoyed working forChadux and but I wanted to get
back to being a mariner, wantedto get back a little more hands
on working on the water.
(04:08):
So Delbert Henry and I startedSun og in 2015 with a 42 foot
Peregrine landing craft.
We wanted to focus on servingindustry with planning craft
because we wanted to work jobsthat were remote, because we
just wanted to do, you know, thehardest thing possible.
Shannon (04:29):
It's a good niche market, isn't it?
Colin (04:32):
Yeah, well it is.
It's a niche market.
We go to areas that areunimproved, they don't
necessarily have docs, theydon't have a lot of
infrastructure, and that'sreally the usefulness of these
landing craft they can pull upon a beach and drop the bow door
and offload without a dock.
So we started doing this in2015 and focused on Cook Inlet,
(04:55):
and our first big job was theLNG project.
We supported geotechnical andgeophysical research and Cook
Inlet.
You know, that project didn'treally go very far and some of
the Cook Inlet worked dried up,so we had to pivot and in 2017,
(05:15):
we were approached by DeanAndrew, who runs an air service
out in Kodiak.
And he's also married to AliciaAndrew, who's the tribal
president of C.
Shannon (05:30):
L
Colin (05:31):
And they own a landing craft in the LCM-8, the
Retriever, and I knew of theboat.
It was something.
It was a boat we hired when Iwas with Chadux for an incident.
So they asked if we'd run theboat for them, and at that point
we hadn't delivered fuel.
It's not something we had done,but that's the purpose of their
(05:52):
.
That's why they had theretriever to supply the village
with fuel.
So we thought it would be agood opportunity.
We didn't know quite what wewere getting into, but we
started to run the retriever andagain, I had been to Kodiak
through Chadux, so we ran theboat for them and that's how we
(06:16):
got into the bigger LCM-8s.
Shannon (06:18):
They're called their ex-military landing craft and
again, that's how we starteddelivering to so those larger
vessels at one point wereconstructed for and used for
like Coast Guard service, andthen are decommissioned at some
point and sold for private use.
Colin (06:33):
Yeah, mostly the Army.
Army has more vessels than theNavy and a lot of them are these
smaller inland vessels.
So right now we have a boat, anLCM-8, that was built for the
Army.
We've got another one that wasbuilt for the Navy.
But their ex-military boats andthey're tough and they're
(06:57):
shallow draft and they'reperfect for Alaska.
Yeah, they just fit a need inthese unimproved villages, so
they're perfect.
Shannon (07:09):
And for our less nautical listeners, the shallow
draft is important becausewithout a improved harbor or
dock it's not deep enough forsome of these bigger vessels,
like oil barges, to be able topull up and deliver fuel,
correct or deliver cargo eitherprobably.
Colin (07:24):
Yeah, we only draft maybe four or five feet of water so
we can get into a shallow beachand drop the bow door and the
bow door actually lands on thebeach and we can drive on and
off with our cargo when biggerboats they can't quite get in
all the way to the beach.
Shannon (07:44):
I'm not entirely sure, but I feel like an oil barge has
maybe nine foot of draft ormore.
It's a lot deeper.
You could probably tell me moreabout that, but I feel like,
having done research for wherethey could go for portages.
For some of our clients I thinknine feet is the minimum and
they prefer much deeper Right.
Colin (08:04):
so, yeah, we're just a kind of a different animal.
We go to these places and we'renot bringing much compared to
these big tankers or barges, butwe're filling the need of a
smaller customer in a smallerarea.
Shannon (08:21):
But what you're bringing is very critical
because I'm guessing if itdoesn't come via your landing
craft it's gonna be flown in atfive X the cost or 10 X the cost
.
Colin (08:29):
So critical stuff it is and for us it's kind of the
reward.
It's very gratifying to bringcargo and now fuel to these
areas that really have no otherway of doing it or doing it
affordably.
So we really enjoy doing thisand it's just refreshing to have
(08:54):
happy customers people whoreally need you versus just
overhead.
So it's been a breath of freshair.
Shannon (09:04):
So you've got several vessels.
Now Do you wanna give me arundown of what you've got, like
what are the, what types ofvessels and what are their names
, cause I like to know names ofthings.
Colin (09:13):
So we have the Mimery, and that's the boat that started
it all.
That's our little 42 footaluminum peregrine and it took
us a while to figure out what wewere and early on we realized
we didn't wanna be a water taxiservice.
We wanted to be more industrybased and that boat is great for
(09:37):
supporting dive operations orgeophysical, hydrographic kind
of work, towing surveyorequipment.
But it's, it's you know, itdoesn't go super fast because
it's jets and it can only haul8,000 pounds, so it's not a big
freight hauler.
So it's just, you know, it's atool that suits some jobs.
(10:00):
But again, it's where we start.
Shannon (10:03):
It's a pretty valuable tool.
I would have given my left armmany times for that exact vessel
in summer, but Western Alaskalocations where we were doing
remediation type work or sitecharacterization, Because you're
right, those vessels makethings that are not possible
possible.
They really are like a littleSwiss Army knife.
You can use them for almostanything except heavy duty work.
Colin (10:23):
Right, they're, yeah, they're the SUV of the water,
yeah.
So we kind of graduated up, weleased the retriever, that's the
LCM-8.
And then we were fortunateenough to find another LCM-8,
the supplier.
So we own the supplier now andwe still deliver to Karluck with
(10:45):
our vessel.
And then, most recently, webought the transporter very
fancy names supplier.
Shannon (10:55):
I was gonna say I feel like there's no imagination when
you guys name things.
Colin (11:01):
No, we're just telling people what we do with our names
.
Shannon (11:06):
It's a smart tactic.
Colin (11:07):
But both those vessels are the LCM-8s.
They're 72 foot overall landingground.
Shannon (11:14):
That's a pretty long boat 72 feet.
Colin (11:17):
Yeah so our original boat , the Mimery, can fit on the
deck of the supplier.
Shannon (11:25):
So yeah, have you done that?
Have you actually put it on thedeck, have you?
Colin (11:30):
actually done that and put it on the deck.
We haven't, we haven't had need, but I think that would be neat
to have them stacked up likethat.
Shannon (11:38):
It would.
So it sounds like as yourbusiness developed, like we all
do I'm a small business owner aswell You're sort of path
finding which will suit yourclients needs the best and where
the best fit is for what youlike and enjoy and are
passionate about and where thereal need is.
So once you determine this need, it sounds like fuel was an
(11:58):
integral part of that.
So what could you talk to usabout delivering fuel and what
some of the challenges werebefore you went down the path?
I know you went down Becausedelivering fuel over Alaska in
situations exactly like youdescribed, where there is no
dock or deep water access,that's a challenge our whole
state faces.
So maybe talk about that pieceof it, yeah.
Colin (12:21):
So, and definitely the fuel delivery has been a trial
and error of sorts or dosomething and then figure out
what works, what doesn't work.
When we first starteddelivering fuel, we were using a
fuel truck it was probably adecommissioned shore side
(12:42):
petroleum truck and putting iton deck and going off to our
sites and rolling it off theboat down the beach and over to
the tanks wherever they are.
Shannon (12:57):
Basically doing a remote truck delivery, but using
the landing craft to take itbetween where there was non-road
access, taking it from wherethere was a road access, like
Homer, to a community wherethere were no roads accessing it
.
Colin (13:09):
Okay, right, and that's perfectly fine, and the truck
becomes it's just cargo, roll on, roll off cargo, but the truck
itself, I mean the truck itself,weighs 14,000 pounds.
Shannon (13:23):
Is it 14,000 pounds empty or 14,000 with the fuel on
it?
Colin (13:26):
14,000 pounds empty and our boats have a capacity of
80,000 pounds, so it takes up agood amount of our capacity.
You know, a truck sits highercentered than, say, a deck tank
so you have any free surfaceeffect and this tank is sitting
up on a chassis so you canactually feel it's sloshing
(13:49):
around.
It's baffled but it's still.
But, still yeah.
Shannon (13:53):
Yeah, yes, I know very well what you're talking about.
Colin (13:57):
Yeah, it's a little unnerving.
I think right around the time Istarted I left Shadow there was
a landing craft in Kachemak Baythat had a fuel truck on its
shift and had a spill, had anincident.
Because, yeah, they're fine ifthey're sitting center, but if
that truck moves over some allof a sudden, you can't recover,
(14:19):
you're listed over and it's abad scene.
Shannon (14:22):
Yep, the center of gravity flips it correct, it
just tips it over.
Colin (14:28):
Yeah, you know we wanted to get away from the trucks and
we wanted to get more reliant ondeck tanks and they still you
have to take care with them aswell.
But they sit lower, they havetheir less weight.
But the trucks rolling them on,rolling them off through the
intertidal zone kind of scaredme because if that truck got
(14:51):
stuck rolling off the boat andthen the tide came up it would
be a bad scene.
Shannon (14:56):
This is the part of Alaska where I feel like I don't
think people outside of Alaskaunderstand the challenges that
we face, because what you'redescribing is expert level truck
driving, expert level vesselhandling, expert level local
knowledge of tide, weather andthe shore conditions.
Right, you need to know whatkind of actual gravel you're
driving it on, because it'sgoing to be soft in some places
(15:18):
and hard in others, and all ofthat happens very routinely and
a huge amount of time.
We have such great peopleworking in Alaska that it works,
but for those few times that itdoesn't work.
That's why we have theseincidents that kind of go
sideways so fast because there'sno margin for error or there's
very little margin for error,and I know for just from my
(15:41):
experience loading and unloadingcargo anytime you drive
something on and off, that's anincreased risk of it being off
balance because the boat shiftsor the truck shifts because
nothing's secured yet Right,like you said, it's the beach,
but it's also the effect of thecargo coming on and off on the
boat itself.
Colin (15:59):
So we wanted to find a way to mitigate that risk, to
lower it.
And also, we're not truckpeople I don't have truck
mechanics on staff and boy thesaltwater.
We tarp up our cargo, but thesaltwater just eats up, breaks
and it's hard on equipment.
(16:22):
So here we are rolling it upand down a ramp and what's going
to happen?
So yeah, we just wanted to getout of that world.
We wanted to get out of the DOTworld and find a better way.
Shannon (16:34):
And when you refer to the DOT world you're referring
to the DOT regulations that sayif the truck's DOT regulated
it's got its own set oftightness testing and
certifications to make sure thatthe vessel of the tank truck is
tight and leak-proof.
But that comes with maintenanceand regulation and testing and
all of those pieces.
Colin (16:55):
Right, and that's not us.
We're a small company and we'refocusing on boats and landing
craft.
I didn't have the capacity tolearn DOT rules and find DOT
drivers, so keep it simple.
Shannon (17:09):
We have stayed out of the DOT lane as well, because it
is a whole big highway ofthings you gotta know.
Colin (17:16):
Right.
So we decided we wanted tostart pumping from deck tanks to
shore and we knew we neededODPCP Oil discharge prevention
and contingency plan.
Yes, that we knew we needed that.
Yes, and we went to ADEC and weexplained to them just what
(17:42):
we've been talking about that wethink it's a little bit how
should we put it sketchy,running these trucks on and off?
Or we think it comes with a lotof risk and we want to find a
better way to do it.
We want to pump from the boat,which has its own risk, but you
mitigate it, you put inprevention measures.
Shannon (18:04):
But you're stuck because it's not a full barge.
So a lot of the things thatcome with a full-size barge
there's a lot of protections andcompartments, but this is a
72-foot landing craft and, forreference, an oil barge would be
, I think, well over 200 feet inlength, right, I mean, it'd be
more than double this length tomeet the minimums for barges.
(18:25):
Yeah, so this is, even thoughit seems large when you're
standing next to it on the dock,it's still a small craft and
there's not room or place, andthey're not really.
You're doing something new,right?
You're trying to get into theplaces you can get into with
this craft, but it's not reallydesigned for fuel delivery yet,
right?
So what did the state say.
Colin (18:44):
You know, they were receptive and they listened to
us, but actually at first theywanted to know why.
Why do you want to do this?
So we kind of had to explain tothem that we need this to be
able to pump over water not onlyat the delivery site but even
(19:04):
at the fuel dock.
Anybody is filling up, evendrums or tanks that are on board
, and they're doing it at a fueldock.
Well, that's not covered by thefacility response plan.
You can fill your own tanks onboard to, you know, to power
your engines, but that'sdifferent than filling cargo
(19:24):
tanks.
Shannon (19:25):
It is and it runs sideways.
Colin (19:27):
So we had to explain to ADEC that well, I don't think we
can do this legally without anODPCP.
But they were prettyenthusiastic about it, about
helping us do it the right way.
You know, they didn't throw uproadblocks.
We had to go through theprocess, and so we had to have a
plan written and go through thepublic review process.
(19:50):
But all things considered, Ithink it was fairly painless.
Shannon (19:54):
And this is an ODPCP for vessels in particular,
because there's different rules.
Previously in this podcast, wehave stuck to land-based
facilities, but now we're movingover into the vessel
requirements of the sameregulation, and anytime you're
transferring fuel over water ordelivering fuel for retail
instead of individualconsumption, and even sometimes
when you're consuming it as avessel, if you're large enough,
(20:17):
there are requirements to have asea plan in place or this ODPCP
from the state.
So that's half the piece,though, because I bet the Coast
Guard had some thoughts aboutthis as well.
Colin (20:27):
The state was probably just thrust up right, well,
right, and you know, talk aboutus kind of figuring it out as we
went along.
I kind of thought we got theODPCP in place.
We're good because our stateplan is for 9,000 gallons, or
(20:47):
217 barrels, which is it'snothing.
It's tiny compared to these bigbarges and from my oil spill
response days I knew that well,all these mini barges that they
use for spill response, they'reall built to 249 barrels.
Shannon (21:06):
Yes, because there's a 250 barrel cutoff right.
Colin (21:09):
Exactly, there's manning requirements.
After 249 or 250 barrels youneed tankermen and we're under
that level.
Shannon (21:19):
So I thought oh, we're good.
Colin (21:21):
You know we're under a trigger or a level that triggers
more regulations.
Well, I was wrong.
Shannon (21:31):
How was the Coast Guard about it, though?
Did they approach you?
Colin (21:35):
So someone else in industry, with one of the other
transporters who I knew from theChadux days, you know, we had
coffee and he told me you can'tdo what you're doing, but you
might want to look into a 3302permit.
It's something in CFR that'sgoing to allow you to do what
(21:58):
you're doing, even though you'renot inspected as a sub-chapter
D tank vessel.
So, okay, great.
So he didn't just dump aproblem on me, he gave me a
solution and I was very, verygrateful for that.
Shannon (22:13):
That is one thing about the fuel industry, that it's
part of the reason why I stayedand built a business here, and I
liken it to siblings Like.
We're all like siblings in thatwe love to compete and see
who's the best, but we also takecare of each other and that
right there, instead ofsquishing you or letting you out
to hang.
You know they came in throughthat network and I've had that
(22:35):
happen so many times in my owncareer and been so thankful for
it when people have chirped upand helped rather than hindered.
Colin (22:42):
It made all the difference for us.
So we followed up.
You know he gave me this adviceand, okay, we went to the Coast
Guard and again explained tothem what we want to do and they
kind of scratched their heads,but they were excited, it was
something new.
Shannon (22:58):
Yeah.
Colin (22:59):
Well, the inspectors I talked to, they were
enthusiastic and once they kindof wrapped their head around
what we were doing, theyappreciated that we were trying
to do this out in the daylight.
Shannon (23:11):
The proactive approach.
Instead of asking forforgiveness, you're asking for
permission.
Yeah.
Colin (23:17):
Right, and there's been a history of maybe people moving
fuel around in the cover ofdarkness looking over the
shoulder, you know that's good.
Shannon (23:26):
No, we follow the rules all the time.
Colin (23:29):
Yeah, so you know, again, people regulators have been
enthusiastic about helping us.
They know we're not the biggestand we're kind of always
improving, but we're heading inthe right direction and they've
been very helpful.
So the Coast Guard helped usget the 3302 permit, which comes
(23:51):
out of 46 CFR, and it allowsuninspected vessels like ours to
deliver fuel without being aninspected vessel.
But there's some guidelinesthat come along with it.
Shannon (24:07):
Is this where we get into the APC territory?
The alternate planning.
Colin (24:13):
No, I'm not warmed up enough for that one.
Shannon (24:16):
Okay, well, we'll park APC for a minute.
So just to recap for ournon-nautical listeners as
complex as the regulations areon land for bulk fuel storage
and dispensing, they are evenmore complex once you take it to
water, because, of course, therisk is much higher, and so both
the state and the Coast Guardhave some pretty complicated
regulations, and it's achallenge even for experts.
(24:41):
So tell me more about the 3302then, because I jumped the gun,
so we'll set aside APC for now.
So what comes next?
Colin (24:50):
So the 3302 permit, it is like the APCs and it's in the
fact that it's unique to Alaskaand basically it's.
Whoever wrote it into CFR hadsome understanding of Alaska and
knew that it's not like thelower 48.
And you have these remotecommunities that are just
(25:12):
struggling to maintain their wayof life and afford their way of
life and they don't have theresources or the infrastructure
that they do down south.
Shannon (25:23):
And specifically we're talking road systems and rail
systems because in the lower 48,almost every community has at
least road access and often railaccess as well in some form.
But in Alaska we don't evenhave joined up utility grids.
Like there's so many pieces ofinfrastructure in Alaska that
are fractured on a scale I don'tthink anyone in the lower 48
(25:43):
can imagine.
Until you get up here and flyfor an hour and a half straight
and realize there's an hour anda half of uninterrupted, no
roads, no, nothing, noinfrastructure, maybe a harbor
in between that you might see.
Colin (25:58):
There's just no infrastructure.
So they recognize that and theysaid, okay, if there's a
community that's not on the roadsystem and doesn't have regular
service from a common carrier,so a barge, a carrier, a
freighter, if they're not comingin there on a weekly basis and
(26:22):
it's not practical that somebodyis, maybe they don't have a
dock or you know, no one's goingto go in there with a tanker or
a fuel barge If those are thecircumstances, for that
community will allow anunexpected cargo vessel to go in
there and deliver fuel.
(26:42):
So that's actually written intoCFR and just like these APCs,
we're fully compliant with CFR.
We're not under the radar,we're not, you know, less than
anybody else.
We meet CFR just in a differentway, but in a way that's
(27:02):
written in the CFR.
So they're allowing us to dothis legally.
Shannon (27:08):
Could you talk a little bit about inspected vessels?
Because I think if somebodydidn't know the vessel industry
they would hear uninspected andthey're imagining like a car
that never goes to the shop andgets its oil changed.
But could you talk about whatthat gives some context for what
inspected versus uninspectedmeans?
Colin (27:25):
Right and that's a good point To be an inspected Coast
Guard inspected vessel.
That process starts before theboat is a vessel.
It starts with plans and reviewof plans and approval by the
Coast Guard.
They're inspecting the buildingprocess, they're overseeing it
(27:47):
and once the boat is inoperation, they're looking at it
annually.
They're walking on the vessel,looking for certain things and
then every couple of years theboats hauled out of the water
and they're inspecting the hull.
So we operate these vessels.
I mean, they're built tomilitary specifications but they
were not built under thesupervision of the Coast Guard
(28:10):
and there's just no, you know,reversing time.
It would be.
I don't want to say it'simpossible to do it, but it
would be very difficult to turnthese boats into inspected
vessels.
We basically have to rip outall the wiring, all the plumbing
, everything and just kind ofstart over.
So it's not practical.
Shannon (28:30):
And these vessels are under the minimum size
requirements for this inspectionas well correct, they're
smaller than what's required.
Colin (28:36):
Yeah, so that's another whole different topic is so to
deliver cargo as an uninspectedvessel you have to be under 15
gross registered tons.
That's kind of a politicaldesignation.
It's not necessarily we'redisplacing like Archimedes,
(28:58):
would you know, tell us we'redisplacing water.
You know?
It has more to do withcompartments on the boat being
designated and maybe exempt fromthe tonnage calculation, the
displacement calculation.
Shannon (29:14):
Oh, so you can have a vessel with exemptions.
It could be over, but only thestuff that's counted is under
Exactly, and you know it'spretty common in the marine
industry.
Colin (29:23):
You look down south, they've got these giant casino
vessels or passenger vessels andthey're huge.
You know, if you just weighedthem with a scale they'd be, you
know, 200,000, 300,000 pounds,pretty big boats.
But through this process ofthat's called ad measuring, they
(29:44):
reduce the tonnage and they doit down south.
A lot for licensing.
You know, they want to getthese vessels under 100 tons so
they can find more captains torun them.
And in our case our vessels thesupplier and transporter have
been ad measured to be under 15tons so we're not required to be
(30:06):
inspected under sub chapter I.
Shannon (30:09):
It also allows you to staff them appropriately for the
remote work that you're doing.
Correct, it does.
Colin (30:16):
So you know we can find captains, but it's really just
not being in the inspected worldbecause again, there's no
turning back time with ourmilitary landing craft and
having them inspected.
So that's the whole 15 tons,you know, in ad measuring.
Yeah, it's just another one ofthe things we have to deal with.
Shannon (30:38):
Okay, yeah, that's.
I mean, that's not a smallportion to deal with.
Let's unpark the APC.
Does that apply to you at all,or are you underneath that or
outside of that?
Colin (30:50):
Again, we have a very small response plan and a
response standard, 217 barrels,which is, I think, probably it's
got to be the smallest plan inthe state it is.
They checked.
It's a baby plan, so oh, it is,it's, and I'm okay with that.
(31:11):
You know I don't want to gettoo often to the weeds, but our
response planning standard is,you know so, 10% of that.
So like 21, 22 barrels.
You know, in the first 24 hoursof a spill, theoretically, on
paper, we would have to come upwith the resources to clean up
22 barrels of oil, or at leastto start the process.
Shannon (31:35):
At that level, I'm imagining you can bring the
equipment with you rather thanrisk lying on outside resources.
Colin (31:42):
Yeah, so we have, and because of our ODPCP and the
3302 permit we have resources onboard.
But we're also members ofChadux, the oil spill removal
organization, and I'm prettysure they can get a skimmer and
some you know bladders and youknow maybe a skiff to where we
(32:03):
are with an incident in 24 hoursto respond to 22 barrels of oil
.
Shannon (32:10):
Do you pay a barrel rate, of 217 barrels?
Colin (32:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So, and again, it's all.
It's all theoretical and it'sall part of the planning process
.
Shannon (32:20):
but so, for context, many of our clients have several
million barrels that they paytowards the Chaduz-Azra coverage
.
So 217 is just I don't knowit's cute, yeah, it's cute.
Colin (32:34):
So honestly, I don't think you know we really need to
worry about an APC at ourplanning level.
Shannon (32:42):
If you wanted to cover a brief overview of what they
were for our non-nautical folkslistening.
I have the same understandingof APC and, as you know, they're
working to change it again aswe speak.
So it's a shifting sandregulation.
For me it seems to always beupdated and changing, but if you
wouldn't mind giving us the10,000 foot overview, I would
(33:04):
love that.
Colin (33:05):
I'll do my best and I left that world in 2015.
And you know it's like you said, it's an ever-changing world.
But it is like our 3302 permitin that it acknowledges Alaska's
unique situation, that youdon't have the infrastructure
and you also are dealing withgreat distances, the national
(33:28):
planning standard what all thesepeople who move fuel, at least
down south, have to abide by.
They have to have resources torespond to an incident, a
percentage maybe of their cargowithin a certain timeline.
And that's great for theHouston Ship Channel where you
(33:51):
have an OSRV, an oil spillresponse vessel and a barge
sitting there just on the ready.
But if you're going out to Adakor Western Alaska.
Not only is there not OSRVs,there's no ports to put them,
there's no safe place to storeall these vessels.
Shannon (34:11):
And there's 20 hours of hard going between where they
can be stored and wherepotentially they may be asked to
go.
And if the weather's up, that20 hours might be 48, depending
on whether they have to shelter.
Dodge left, dodge right, andyou and I both know spills never
happen on blue skies.
They always happen duringsomething horrible.
Colin (34:32):
Yeah, and even if you could theoretically have these
same resources scattered aboutas you do in the lower 48,
somebody has to pay for this.
And if they were able to do it,a gallon of gasoline in
Kivalina would be $60, $70.
(34:53):
I don't know, I'm making up anumber.
Shannon (34:55):
No, for real, You're not joking.
Because if they had to have awhole other barge that was equal
to the volume of the barge thatwas delivering a company, every
barge to where it went, just incase there was a spill and they
needed the capacity and theresponse resources, it would
double or triple that you knowthe price of the fuel, or more,
(35:16):
because that barge is not beingutilized to make money.
It's just realized to be ababysitter for the other one.
Maybe I'll see if I can get DanNut or the Coast Guard itself
to come on here and talk moreabout it.
But that is.
The gist of it is that in NewYork Harbor and Houston shipping
channels and what's the one outof Seattle, like the corridor
right out of Seattle there's alot of resources and they're
(35:38):
very close together.
And once you get to Alaskathere's less and less resources
and longer and longer distancesthe further out you go.
Because of our lack ofinfrastructure and the costs to
make it the same as some ofthese really busy shipping ports
is too expensive for thesecommunities to actually receive
(35:59):
fuel.
It would be so astronomical.
They would just would not beable to receive fuel.
And if Alaska wants to keep itscommunities and cultures the
way they are.
We've got to have somedifferent considerations for
that, so I don't even.
I mean we can also talk abouthow protective it is of the
environment as well, because allof these ships, people, have
resources to respond.
(36:19):
It's just not the level of someof these other places in the
lower 48.
Colin (36:24):
Right and I guess, going back to why this even came up,
why we're discussing this, youknow and again I don't want to
get out of my lane and youmentioned Dan Nut and Buddy
Custer, with Chadux and JimButler.
These are the folks who live inthat world, but again it's a
nod to Alaska and our uniquecircumstances that somewhere
(36:48):
down south in Washington orwherever they wrote the CFRs
that apply, someone was payingattention to Alaska and our
unique circumstances.
You know, again, we're 46 CFRand that's where the 3302 permit
comes from, and APCs are 33 CFR.
You know 155, where where oilspill regulations come from, and
(37:12):
in either circumstance it's not, you know, it's not a way to
water down regulations, it's away to do it differently but
equally as effective andallowing people to continue on
with their way of life.
Shannon (37:27):
Yeah, I like that's very well put, Colin.
The Coast Guard has beenincredibly intent, especially in
the last few years, on gettingthat feedback and bringing it
back to Washington DC.
So I do think that things arechanging, especially as the
Northwest Passage opens up.
I mean, that's creating quite abit of focus, if you will, on
Alaska and some of the portsthat they're looking at putting
(37:50):
in on, you know, nome andKotsabue areas.
It's going to change things forthe better, probably.
So, Colin, thank you for takingus through the intricacies of
getting the state squared awayand the Coast Guard squared away
, and now you're delivering fuelfrom your craft over water.
You've got all the plans andpermits in place through a
(38:10):
really unique collaborationbetween all these different
agencies.
And I was curious as we wrapthis interview up and I
appreciate you taking the timeto talk us through it because
there really is a lot of riskinvolved in driving fuel trucks
on and off, and I think some ofthe things that your group has
done is maybe pioneering a wayto the future, like having other
(38:32):
ways to deliver fuel that areless risky.
But I was wondering if you hadany fun stories to share with us
.
I mean, I'm sure you've seen itall doing deliveries to some of
these remote locations.
Did you have anything youwanted to share with us that was
interesting or I don't know.
Surprise me.
Colin (38:50):
Yeah, yeah, it seems like every trip there's something
unique about it.
Just a couple of things thatcome to mind.
You know, we did a trip toWoody Island, which is, you know
, just outside of Kodiak.
You know, with a boatload ofcattle.
There was a busking, yeah.
Shannon (39:09):
Like real moo"cows yeah .
Colin (39:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (39:12):
What would they go into the island for, was it like?
Colin (39:15):
they put them out there.
They run wild and you knowthere's there's a Bible camp out
there and they must oversee thecattle.
They're the ones who broughtthem over, but it was
interesting to get them off theboat.
It was almost like those littlecattle grades or fences that
they have in the ground thatthey don't want to step over.
Shannon (39:36):
Oh, I bet that looks a lot like the nose of a landing
crab, exactly, exactly.
Colin (39:40):
So it took a lot of prodding to get the cattle off
the boat.
Oh my gosh.
Shannon (39:45):
Did you get cowboy hats for that delivery?
I would have had a cowboy hatstraight up One of the guys who
brought them.
Colin (39:51):
You know he was the type and you know if he was a
construction worker he'd havethe cowboy hat hard hats.
That's a nice pun.
That's crazy.
That was an interesting one.
We did a trip to Old Harbor forthe Marines and we're bringing
all kinds of supplies there andI'm looking at one of the
(40:13):
pallets and these pallets arestacked six feet high and it
turned out that, you know, wehad pallets and pallets of drink
boxes chocolate milk drinkboxes that we brought to Old
Harbor for the Marines becauseapparently, chocolate milk they
like drink boxes.
Like little sippy juice boxes,like little sippy cups or sippy
(40:36):
boxes for the, you know, some ofthe meanest, toughest people in
the world.
So, yep, that one kind of mademe laugh.
I guess everybody.
I think we're the only peoplein Alaska without a reality TV
show.
We did get approached by a groupthat wanted to make a show
(40:59):
about landing craft and cargowars between landing craft and I
told them well, you know I'minterested, but we don't do
drama, we're not going to ham itup, we don't go out in bad
weather, we just we're veryconservative and there's not a
lot of drama.
(41:20):
But boy, our customers, they'rethe story.
We can go to these spaces andyou can see how these folks live
and they're living asubsistence lifestyle and very
historical and unique.
And boy, they never called meback.
They had no interest in youknow.
Shannon (41:39):
They didn't have any interest in tough Alaskans doing
cool Alaska stuff.
They just wanted a drama.
Colin (41:43):
They just wanted drama and people yelling at each other
.
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't talktoo much about the reality TV
show industry in Alaska, but westill do not have our show, nope
.
Shannon (41:59):
You and the pirate gold of Adak came to Adak.
We had a similar request and Isaid no, thank you, I'm well
aware of.
I don't need any of that.
Colin (42:09):
So we failed to make the reality show market with our
business.
I hopefully I hope that sayssomething good about our
business that we you know didn'tmake the cut.
Shannon (42:22):
Cheers to unsexy businesses.
They last longer and do muchbetter.
Oh, Colin, thank you so muchfor sharing your time and
expertise today.
I really appreciate you walkingus through.
I know that was some complexregulations but hopefully it'll
give our listeners an idea ofwhat your group has to go
through and if anyone else inother areas of the state like
(42:45):
Western Alaska maybe want to trysomething similar, it would
give them an idea of where tostart.
Colin (42:50):
That's great and I think there's room.
You know, if anybody ever hadquestions on how to go down the
road, we have gone down.
I'm happy to help them, becauseAlaska is a big place and I
don't.
You know, we've got all thework we want and there's more of
it that needs to be done.
So, yeah, I'm glad we'vecracked the nut and we can help
(43:13):
others do the same.
Shannon (43:15):
That is an incredibly generous offer and I do hope
more people will take it,because you're right this.
We work, as you know, fromKetchikan to ADEC, all the way
up to Akiyagvik, and there is anuntapped need.
This state has so much remotework, and not even just the
communities.
There's a lot of ongoingenvironmental work and
exploration work that justexists in places where you can't
(43:39):
get deep water boat access, andthey all need things like fuel
and chocolate milk, althoughI've never heard of anyone
bringing in cattle.
That's going to go down in mydatabase of stories Fun stuff.
Yeah, all right, Colin, weappreciate the time.
Thank, you.
Colin (43:56):
Thank you very much, I enjoyed it.
Shannon (43:58):
Yeah, me too.
I'm really glad you came on,thank you.
Good morning, welcome to season two of Tank Talk.
I'm here today with ColinDaugherty from Sundog Charters
and we're going to talk about areally unique form of field
delivery that exists in thestate of Alaska, and I am so
pleased that Colin is joining usthis morning to talk about it,
because I really appreciate thatit solved a high-risk activity
with a really unique solutionand I'm excited to go down the
(00:24):
road that Colin and his teamwent through to obtain that
safer method of delivery.
And Colin and I have known eachother for a really long time,
all the way back when I workedwith the state of Alaska, I
think he and I, if I'mremembering right, Colin, we did
a spill drill in Dutch Harbormany moons ago.
Colin (00:40):
Yeah, I think I have memories of Dutch Harbor and
maybe Dillingham, Bristol Bay,for you know, could have been a
hub visit.
Maybe you were visiting one ofthe member Chadux member
companies.
Shannon (00:54):
Colin, could you briefly introduce yourself, tell
us about yourself and then sortof give us a brief history of
Sundog Charters?
Because obviously when I metyou we were working with Shadow,
which is now the Shadow network, but at some point you split
off.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour background and how Sundog
Charters came to be.
Colin (01:11):
Okay, well, thanks, and yeah, I'm looking forward to
this conversation.
Yeah, I worked for AlaskaChadux back starting in 2006
through 2015.
I was a mariner, has been havebeen a mariner since the mid 90s
.
I moved from the Midwest, whereI grew up, down to the Virgin
(01:33):
Islands.
Shannon (01:34):
Don't know why I left, but were you, were you a mariner
in Minnesota, though Is there alot of marine environments in
Minnesota.
Colin (01:43):
Chicago.
So I started great boarding onthe Great Lakes and I thought
I'd take a break from the wintertime and but down in the Virgin
Islands I got involved with adive group, a commercial diving
outfit that did a lot of work atthe refinery there, the Hovenza
refinery.
So that's how I got into theoil industry and then eventually
(02:04):
got a job as a captain on anOSRV at the refinery.
So that's how I I segwayed intospill response.
Shannon (02:13):
So hold on.
So for our listeners that arenot as familiar, osrv is oil
spill response vessel.
Colin (02:18):
Yes, so 110 foot vessel equipped with spill response
gear, kind of ready to go andbecause of the regulations.
But yeah, my wife and I gottired of all the perfect weather
and decided to move to Alaskaand Shadow was looking for a
(02:38):
spill tech and and I had, youknow, a little experience now
working for an OSRO and oilspill removal organization.
So that's how I came to Alaska,was working for Alaska Chadux,
although I had done a little bitof work in Alaska prior, which
(02:58):
got me working in Prince WilliamSound on a tour boat, but I
also worked for Peregrine Marine.
Oh, yeah.
And they build bow pickers.
That's Jeff Johnson.
But Jeff Johnson is kind of thelanding craft at least the
smaller aluminum landing craftguru in Alaska.
(03:19):
So I really learned a lot abouthim.
And I also met Delbert Henryworking for Peregrine and he's
my now partner with Sun ogCharters.
Shannon (03:31):
So tell me, tell me more about Sun og Charters.
I'm familiar with your groupbecause you do a lot of work out
of Homer and Kodiak, but youalso serve many of the
communities along the way.
So maybe just sort of describewhat Sun og is and how it got
started.
Colin (03:46):
Yeah.
So we started in 2015 and I bythen had become a little burned
out with the spill industry justthe phone calls at three in the
morning, you know.
It was nothing.
I really enjoyed working forChadux and but I wanted to get
back to being a mariner, wantedto get back a little more hands
on working on the water.
(04:08):
So Delbert Henry and I startedSun og in 2015 with a 42 foot
Peregrine landing craft.
We wanted to focus on servingindustry with planning craft
because we wanted to work jobsthat were remote, because we
just wanted to do, you know, thehardest thing possible.
Shannon (04:29):
It's a good niche market, isn't it?
Colin (04:32):
Yeah, well it is.
It's a niche market.
We go to areas that areunimproved, they don't
necessarily have docs, theydon't have a lot of
infrastructure, and that'sreally the usefulness of these
landing craft they can pull upon a beach and drop the bow door
and offload without a dock.
So we started doing this in2015 and focused on Cook Inlet,
(04:55):
and our first big job was theLNG project.
We supported geotechnical andgeophysical research and Cook
Inlet.
You know, that project didn'treally go very far and some of
the Cook Inlet worked dried up,so we had to pivot and in 2017,
(05:15):
we were approached by DeanAndrew, who runs an air service
out in Kodiak.
And he's also married to AliciaAndrew, who's the tribal
president of C.
Shannon (05:30):
L
Colin (05:31):
And they own a landing craft in the LCM-8, the
Retriever, and I knew of theboat.
It was something.
It was a boat we hired when Iwas with Chadux for an incident.
So they asked if we'd run theboat for them, and at that point
we hadn't delivered fuel.
It's not something we had done,but that's the purpose of their
(05:52):
.
That's why they had theretriever to supply the village
with fuel.
So we thought it would be agood opportunity.
We didn't know quite what wewere getting into, but we
started to run the retriever andagain, I had been to Kodiak
through Chadux, so we ran theboat for them and that's how we
(06:16):
got into the bigger LCM-8s.
Shannon (06:18):
They're called their ex-military landing craft and
again, that's how we starteddelivering to so those larger
vessels at one point wereconstructed for and used for
like Coast Guard service, andthen are decommissioned at some
point and sold for private use.
Colin (06:33):
Yeah, mostly the Army.
Army has more vessels than theNavy and a lot of them are these
smaller inland vessels.
So right now we have a boat, anLCM-8, that was built for the
Army.
We've got another one that wasbuilt for the Navy.
But their ex-military boats andthey're tough and they're
(06:57):
shallow draft and they'reperfect for Alaska.
Yeah, they just fit a need inthese unimproved villages, so
they're perfect.
Shannon (07:09):
And for our less nautical listeners, the shallow
draft is important becausewithout a improved harbor or
dock it's not deep enough forsome of these bigger vessels,
like oil barges, to be able topull up and deliver fuel,
correct or deliver cargo eitherprobably.
Colin (07:24):
Yeah, we only draft maybe four or five feet of water so
we can get into a shallow beachand drop the bow door and the
bow door actually lands on thebeach and we can drive on and
off with our cargo when biggerboats they can't quite get in
all the way to the beach.
Shannon (07:44):
I'm not entirely sure, but I feel like an oil barge has
maybe nine foot of draft ormore.
It's a lot deeper.
You could probably tell me moreabout that, but I feel like,
having done research for wherethey could go for portages.
For some of our clients I thinknine feet is the minimum and
they prefer much deeper Right.
Colin (08:04):
so, yeah, we're just a kind of a different animal.
We go to these places and we'renot bringing much compared to
these big tankers or barges, butwe're filling the need of a
smaller customer in a smallerarea.
Shannon (08:21):
But what you're bringing is very critical
because I'm guessing if itdoesn't come via your landing
craft it's gonna be flown in atfive X the cost or 10 X the cost
.
Colin (08:29):
So critical stuff it is and for us it's kind of the
reward.
It's very gratifying to bringcargo and now fuel to these
areas that really have no otherway of doing it or doing it
affordably.
So we really enjoy doing thisand it's just refreshing to have
(08:54):
happy customers people whoreally need you versus just
overhead.
So it's been a breath of freshair.
Shannon (09:04):
So you've got several vessels.
Now Do you wanna give me arundown of what you've got, like
what are the, what types ofvessels and what are their names
, cause I like to know names ofthings.
Colin (09:13):
So we have the Mimery, and that's the boat that started
it all.
That's our little 42 footaluminum peregrine and it took
us a while to figure out what wewere and early on we realized
we didn't wanna be a water taxiservice.
We wanted to be more industrybased and that boat is great for
(09:37):
supporting dive operations orgeophysical, hydrographic kind
of work, towing surveyorequipment.
But it's, it's you know, itdoesn't go super fast because
it's jets and it can only haul8,000 pounds, so it's not a big
freight hauler.
So it's just, you know, it's atool that suits some jobs.
(10:00):
But again, it's where we start.
Shannon (10:03):
It's a pretty valuable tool.
I would have given my left armmany times for that exact vessel
in summer, but Western Alaskalocations where we were doing
remediation type work or sitecharacterization, Because you're
right, those vessels makethings that are not possible
possible.
They really are like a littleSwiss Army knife.
You can use them for almostanything except heavy duty work.
Colin (10:23):
Right, they're, yeah, they're the SUV of the water,
yeah.
So we kind of graduated up, weleased the retriever, that's the
LCM-8.
And then we were fortunateenough to find another LCM-8,
the supplier.
So we own the supplier now andwe still deliver to Karluck with
(10:45):
our vessel.
And then, most recently, webought the transporter very
fancy names supplier.
Shannon (10:55):
I was gonna say I feel like there's no imagination when
you guys name things.
Colin (11:01):
No, we're just telling people what we do with our names
.
Shannon (11:06):
It's a smart tactic.
Colin (11:07):
But both those vessels are the LCM-8s.
They're 72 foot overall landingground.
Shannon (11:14):
That's a pretty long boat 72 feet.
Colin (11:17):
Yeah so our original boat , the Mimery, can fit on the
deck of the supplier.
Shannon (11:25):
So yeah, have you done that?
Have you actually put it on thedeck, have you?
Colin (11:30):
actually done that and put it on the deck.
We haven't, we haven't had need, but I think that would be neat
to have them stacked up likethat.
Shannon (11:38):
It would.
So it sounds like as yourbusiness developed, like we all
do I'm a small business owner aswell You're sort of path
finding which will suit yourclients needs the best and where
the best fit is for what youlike and enjoy and are
passionate about and where thereal need is.
So once you determine this need, it sounds like fuel was an
(11:58):
integral part of that.
So what could you talk to usabout delivering fuel and what
some of the challenges werebefore you went down the path?
I know you went down Becausedelivering fuel over Alaska in
situations exactly like youdescribed, where there is no
dock or deep water access,that's a challenge our whole
state faces.
So maybe talk about that pieceof it, yeah.
Colin (12:21):
So, and definitely the fuel delivery has been a trial
and error of sorts or dosomething and then figure out
what works, what doesn't work.
When we first starteddelivering fuel, we were using a
fuel truck it was probably adecommissioned shore side
(12:42):
petroleum truck and putting iton deck and going off to our
sites and rolling it off theboat down the beach and over to
the tanks wherever they are.
Shannon (12:57):
Basically doing a remote truck delivery, but using
the landing craft to take itbetween where there was non-road
access, taking it from wherethere was a road access, like
Homer, to a community wherethere were no roads accessing it
.
Colin (13:09):
Okay, right, and that's perfectly fine, and the truck
becomes it's just cargo, roll on, roll off cargo, but the truck
itself, I mean the truck itself,weighs 14,000 pounds.
Shannon (13:23):
Is it 14,000 pounds empty or 14,000 with the fuel on
it?
Colin (13:26):
14,000 pounds empty and our boats have a capacity of
80,000 pounds, so it takes up agood amount of our capacity.
You know, a truck sits highercentered than, say, a deck tank
so you have any free surfaceeffect and this tank is sitting
up on a chassis so you canactually feel it's sloshing
(13:49):
around.
It's baffled but it's still.
But, still yeah.
Shannon (13:53):
Yeah, yes, I know very well what you're talking about.
Colin (13:57):
Yeah, it's a little unnerving.
I think right around the time Istarted I left Shadow there was
a landing craft in Kachemak Baythat had a fuel truck on its
shift and had a spill, had anincident.
Because, yeah, they're fine ifthey're sitting center, but if
that truck moves over some allof a sudden, you can't recover,
(14:19):
you're listed over and it's abad scene.
Shannon (14:22):
Yep, the center of gravity flips it correct, it
just tips it over.
Colin (14:28):
Yeah, you know we wanted to get away from the trucks and
we wanted to get more reliant ondeck tanks and they still you
have to take care with them aswell.
But they sit lower, they havetheir less weight.
But the trucks rolling them on,rolling them off through the
intertidal zone kind of scaredme because if that truck got
(14:51):
stuck rolling off the boat andthen the tide came up it would
be a bad scene.
Shannon (14:56):
This is the part of Alaska where I feel like I don't
think people outside of Alaskaunderstand the challenges that
we face, because what you'redescribing is expert level truck
driving, expert level vesselhandling, expert level local
knowledge of tide, weather andthe shore conditions.
Right, you need to know whatkind of actual gravel you're
driving it on, because it'sgoing to be soft in some places
(15:18):
and hard in others, and all ofthat happens very routinely and
a huge amount of time.
We have such great peopleworking in Alaska that it works,
but for those few times that itdoesn't work.
That's why we have theseincidents that kind of go
sideways so fast because there'sno margin for error or there's
very little margin for error,and I know for just from my
(15:41):
experience loading and unloadingcargo anytime you drive
something on and off, that's anincreased risk of it being off
balance because the boat shiftsor the truck shifts because
nothing's secured yet Right,like you said, it's the beach,
but it's also the effect of thecargo coming on and off on the
boat itself.
Colin (15:59):
So we wanted to find a way to mitigate that risk, to
lower it.
And also, we're not truckpeople I don't have truck
mechanics on staff and boy thesaltwater.
We tarp up our cargo, but thesaltwater just eats up, breaks
and it's hard on equipment.
(16:22):
So here we are rolling it upand down a ramp and what's going
to happen?
So yeah, we just wanted to getout of that world.
We wanted to get out of the DOTworld and find a better way.
Shannon (16:34):
And when you refer to the DOT world you're referring
to the DOT regulations that sayif the truck's DOT regulated
it's got its own set oftightness testing and
certifications to make sure thatthe vessel of the tank truck is
tight and leak-proof.
But that comes with maintenanceand regulation and testing and
all of those pieces.
Colin (16:55):
Right, and that's not us.
We're a small company and we'refocusing on boats and landing
craft.
I didn't have the capacity tolearn DOT rules and find DOT
drivers, so keep it simple.
Shannon (17:09):
We have stayed out of the DOT lane as well, because it
is a whole big highway ofthings you gotta know.
Colin (17:16):
Right.
So we decided we wanted tostart pumping from deck tanks to
shore and we knew we neededODPCP Oil discharge prevention
and contingency plan.
Yes, that we knew we needed that.
Yes, and we went to ADEC and weexplained to them just what
(17:42):
we've been talking about that wethink it's a little bit how
should we put it sketchy,running these trucks on and off?
Or we think it comes with a lotof risk and we want to find a
better way to do it.
We want to pump from the boat,which has its own risk, but you
mitigate it, you put inprevention measures.
Shannon (18:04):
But you're stuck because it's not a full barge.
So a lot of the things thatcome with a full-size barge
there's a lot of protections andcompartments, but this is a
72-foot landing craft and, forreference, an oil barge would be
, I think, well over 200 feet inlength, right, I mean, it'd be
more than double this length tomeet the minimums for barges.
(18:25):
Yeah, so this is, even thoughit seems large when you're
standing next to it on the dock,it's still a small craft and
there's not room or place, andthey're not really.
You're doing something new,right?
You're trying to get into theplaces you can get into with
this craft, but it's not reallydesigned for fuel delivery yet,
right?
So what did the state say.
Colin (18:44):
You know, they were receptive and they listened to
us, but actually at first theywanted to know why.
Why do you want to do this?
So we kind of had to explain tothem that we need this to be
able to pump over water not onlyat the delivery site but even
(19:04):
at the fuel dock.
Anybody is filling up, evendrums or tanks that are on board
, and they're doing it at a fueldock.
Well, that's not covered by thefacility response plan.
You can fill your own tanks onboard to, you know, to power
your engines, but that'sdifferent than filling cargo
(19:24):
tanks.
Shannon (19:25):
It is and it runs sideways.
Colin (19:27):
So we had to explain to ADEC that well, I don't think we
can do this legally without anODPCP.
But they were prettyenthusiastic about it, about
helping us do it the right way.
You know, they didn't throw uproadblocks.
We had to go through theprocess, and so we had to have a
plan written and go through thepublic review process.
(19:50):
But all things considered, Ithink it was fairly painless.
Shannon (19:54):
And this is an ODPCP for vessels in particular,
because there's different rules.
Previously in this podcast, wehave stuck to land-based
facilities, but now we're movingover into the vessel
requirements of the sameregulation, and anytime you're
transferring fuel over water ordelivering fuel for retail
instead of individualconsumption, and even sometimes
when you're consuming it as avessel, if you're large enough,
(20:17):
there are requirements to have asea plan in place or this ODPCP
from the state.
So that's half the piece,though, because I bet the Coast
Guard had some thoughts aboutthis as well.
Colin (20:27):
The state was probably just thrust up right, well,
right, and you know, talk aboutus kind of figuring it out as we
went along.
I kind of thought we got theODPCP in place.
We're good because our stateplan is for 9,000 gallons, or
(20:47):
217 barrels, which is it'snothing.
It's tiny compared to these bigbarges and from my oil spill
response days I knew that well,all these mini barges that they
use for spill response, they'reall built to 249 barrels.
Shannon (21:06):
Yes, because there's a 250 barrel cutoff right.
Colin (21:09):
Exactly, there's manning requirements.
After 249 or 250 barrels youneed tankermen and we're under
that level.
Shannon (21:19):
So I thought oh, we're good.
Colin (21:21):
You know we're under a trigger or a level that triggers
more regulations.
Well, I was wrong.
Shannon (21:31):
How was the Coast Guard about it, though?
Did they approach you?
Colin (21:35):
So someone else in industry, with one of the other
transporters who I knew from theChadux days, you know, we had
coffee and he told me you can'tdo what you're doing, but you
might want to look into a 3302permit.
It's something in CFR that'sgoing to allow you to do what
(21:58):
you're doing, even though you'renot inspected as a sub-chapter
D tank vessel.
So, okay, great.
So he didn't just dump aproblem on me, he gave me a
solution and I was very, verygrateful for that.
Shannon (22:13):
That is one thing about the fuel industry, that it's
part of the reason why I stayedand built a business here, and I
liken it to siblings Like.
We're all like siblings in thatwe love to compete and see
who's the best, but we also takecare of each other and that
right there, instead ofsquishing you or letting you out
to hang.
You know they came in throughthat network and I've had that
(22:35):
happen so many times in my owncareer and been so thankful for
it when people have chirped upand helped rather than hindered.
Colin (22:42):
It made all the difference for us.
So we followed up.
You know he gave me this adviceand, okay, we went to the Coast
Guard and again explained tothem what we want to do and they
kind of scratched their heads,but they were excited, it was
something new.
Shannon (22:58):
Yeah.
Colin (22:59):
Well, the inspectors I talked to, they were
enthusiastic and once they kindof wrapped their head around
what we were doing, theyappreciated that we were trying
to do this out in the daylight.
Shannon (23:11):
The proactive approach.
Instead of asking forforgiveness, you're asking for
permission.
Yeah.
Colin (23:17):
Right, and there's been a history of maybe people moving
fuel around in the cover ofdarkness looking over the
shoulder, you know that's good.
Shannon (23:26):
No, we follow the rules all the time.
Colin (23:29):
Yeah, so you know, again, people regulators have been
enthusiastic about helping us.
They know we're not the biggestand we're kind of always
improving, but we're heading inthe right direction and they've
been very helpful.
So the Coast Guard helped usget the 3302 permit, which comes
(23:51):
out of 46 CFR, and it allowsuninspected vessels like ours to
deliver fuel without being aninspected vessel.
But there's some guidelinesthat come along with it.
Shannon (24:07):
Is this where we get into the APC territory?
The alternate planning.
Colin (24:13):
No, I'm not warmed up enough for that one.
Shannon (24:16):
Okay, well, we'll park APC for a minute.
So just to recap for ournon-nautical listeners as
complex as the regulations areon land for bulk fuel storage
and dispensing, they are evenmore complex once you take it to
water, because, of course, therisk is much higher, and so both
the state and the Coast Guardhave some pretty complicated
regulations, and it's achallenge even for experts.
(24:41):
So tell me more about the 3302then, because I jumped the gun,
so we'll set aside APC for now.
So what comes next?
Colin (24:50):
So the 3302 permit, it is like the APCs and it's in the
fact that it's unique to Alaskaand basically it's.
Whoever wrote it into CFR hadsome understanding of Alaska and
knew that it's not like thelower 48.
And you have these remotecommunities that are just
(25:12):
struggling to maintain their wayof life and afford their way of
life and they don't have theresources or the infrastructure
that they do down south.
Shannon (25:23):
And specifically we're talking road systems and rail
systems because in the lower 48,almost every community has at
least road access and often railaccess as well in some form.
But in Alaska we don't evenhave joined up utility grids.
Like there's so many pieces ofinfrastructure in Alaska that
are fractured on a scale I don'tthink anyone in the lower 48
(25:43):
can imagine.
Until you get up here and flyfor an hour and a half straight
and realize there's an hour anda half of uninterrupted, no
roads, no, nothing, noinfrastructure, maybe a harbor
in between that you might see.
Colin (25:58):
There's just no infrastructure.
So they recognize that and theysaid, okay, if there's a
community that's not on the roadsystem and doesn't have regular
service from a common carrier,so a barge, a carrier, a
freighter, if they're not comingin there on a weekly basis and
(26:22):
it's not practical that somebodyis, maybe they don't have a
dock or you know, no one's goingto go in there with a tanker or
a fuel barge If those are thecircumstances, for that
community will allow anunexpected cargo vessel to go in
there and deliver fuel.
(26:42):
So that's actually written intoCFR and just like these APCs,
we're fully compliant with CFR.
We're not under the radar,we're not, you know, less than
anybody else.
We meet CFR just in a differentway, but in a way that's
(27:02):
written in the CFR.
So they're allowing us to dothis legally.
Shannon (27:08):
Could you talk a little bit about inspected vessels?
Because I think if somebodydidn't know the vessel industry
they would hear uninspected andthey're imagining like a car
that never goes to the shop andgets its oil changed.
But could you talk about whatthat gives some context for what
inspected versus uninspectedmeans?
Colin (27:25):
Right and that's a good point To be an inspected Coast
Guard inspected vessel.
That process starts before theboat is a vessel.
It starts with plans and reviewof plans and approval by the
Coast Guard.
They're inspecting the buildingprocess, they're overseeing it
(27:47):
and once the boat is inoperation, they're looking at it
annually.
They're walking on the vessel,looking for certain things and
then every couple of years theboats hauled out of the water
and they're inspecting the hull.
So we operate these vessels.
I mean, they're built tomilitary specifications but they
were not built under thesupervision of the Coast Guard
(28:10):
and there's just no, you know,reversing time.
It would be.
I don't want to say it'simpossible to do it, but it
would be very difficult to turnthese boats into inspected
vessels.
We basically have to rip outall the wiring, all the plumbing
, everything and just kind ofstart over.
So it's not practical.
Shannon (28:30):
And these vessels are under the minimum size
requirements for this inspectionas well correct, they're
smaller than what's required.
Colin (28:36):
Yeah, so that's another whole different topic is so to
deliver cargo as an uninspectedvessel you have to be under 15
gross registered tons.
That's kind of a politicaldesignation.
It's not necessarily we'redisplacing like Archimedes,
(28:58):
would you know, tell us we'redisplacing water.
You know?
It has more to do withcompartments on the boat being
designated and maybe exempt fromthe tonnage calculation, the
displacement calculation.
Shannon (29:14):
Oh, so you can have a vessel with exemptions.
It could be over, but only thestuff that's counted is under
Exactly, and you know it'spretty common in the marine
industry.
Colin (29:23):
You look down south, they've got these giant casino
vessels or passenger vessels andthey're huge.
You know, if you just weighedthem with a scale they'd be, you
know, 200,000, 300,000 pounds,pretty big boats.
But through this process ofthat's called ad measuring, they
(29:44):
reduce the tonnage and they doit down south.
A lot for licensing.
You know, they want to getthese vessels under 100 tons so
they can find more captains torun them.
And in our case our vessels thesupplier and transporter have
been ad measured to be under 15tons so we're not required to be
(30:06):
inspected under sub chapter I.
Shannon (30:09):
It also allows you to staff them appropriately for the
remote work that you're doing.
Correct, it does.
Colin (30:16):
So you know we can find captains, but it's really just
not being in the inspected worldbecause again, there's no
turning back time with ourmilitary landing craft and
having them inspected.
So that's the whole 15 tons,you know, in ad measuring.
Yeah, it's just another one ofthe things we have to deal with.
Shannon (30:38):
Okay, yeah, that's.
I mean, that's not a smallportion to deal with.
Let's unpark the APC.
Does that apply to you at all,or are you underneath that or
outside of that?
Colin (30:50):
Again, we have a very small response plan and a
response standard, 217 barrels,which is, I think, probably it's
got to be the smallest plan inthe state it is.
They checked.
It's a baby plan, so oh, it is,it's, and I'm okay with that.
(31:11):
You know I don't want to gettoo often to the weeds, but our
response planning standard is,you know so, 10% of that.
So like 21, 22 barrels.
You know, in the first 24 hoursof a spill, theoretically, on
paper, we would have to come upwith the resources to clean up
22 barrels of oil, or at leastto start the process.
Shannon (31:35):
At that level, I'm imagining you can bring the
equipment with you rather thanrisk lying on outside resources.
Colin (31:42):
Yeah, so we have, and because of our ODPCP and the
3302 permit we have resources onboard.
But we're also members ofChadux, the oil spill removal
organization, and I'm prettysure they can get a skimmer and
some you know bladders and youknow maybe a skiff to where we
(32:03):
are with an incident in 24 hoursto respond to 22 barrels of oil
.
Shannon (32:10):
Do you pay a barrel rate, of 217 barrels?
Colin (32:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So, and again, it's all.
It's all theoretical and it'sall part of the planning process
.
Shannon (32:20):
but so, for context, many of our clients have several
million barrels that they paytowards the Chaduz-Azra coverage
.
So 217 is just I don't knowit's cute, yeah, it's cute.
Colin (32:34):
So honestly, I don't think you know we really need to
worry about an APC at ourplanning level.
Shannon (32:42):
If you wanted to cover a brief overview of what they
were for our non-nautical folkslistening.
I have the same understandingof APC and, as you know, they're
working to change it again aswe speak.
So it's a shifting sandregulation.
For me it seems to always beupdated and changing, but if you
wouldn't mind giving us the10,000 foot overview, I would
(33:04):
love that.
Colin (33:05):
I'll do my best and I left that world in 2015.
And you know it's like you said, it's an ever-changing world.
But it is like our 3302 permitin that it acknowledges Alaska's
unique situation, that youdon't have the infrastructure
and you also are dealing withgreat distances, the national
(33:28):
planning standard what all thesepeople who move fuel, at least
down south, have to abide by.
They have to have resources torespond to an incident, a
percentage maybe of their cargowithin a certain timeline.
And that's great for theHouston Ship Channel where you
(33:51):
have an OSRV, an oil spillresponse vessel and a barge
sitting there just on the ready.
But if you're going out to Adakor Western Alaska.
Not only is there not OSRVs,there's no ports to put them,
there's no safe place to storeall these vessels.
Shannon (34:11):
And there's 20 hours of hard going between where they
can be stored and wherepotentially they may be asked to
go.
And if the weather's up, that20 hours might be 48, depending
on whether they have to shelter.
Dodge left, dodge right, andyou and I both know spills never
happen on blue skies.
They always happen duringsomething horrible.
Colin (34:32):
Yeah, and even if you could theoretically have these
same resources scattered aboutas you do in the lower 48,
somebody has to pay for this.
And if they were able to do it,a gallon of gasoline in
Kivalina would be $60, $70.
(34:53):
I don't know, I'm making up anumber.
Shannon (34:55):
No, for real, You're not joking.
Because if they had to have awhole other barge that was equal
to the volume of the barge thatwas delivering a company, every
barge to where it went, just incase there was a spill and they
needed the capacity and theresponse resources, it would
double or triple that you knowthe price of the fuel, or more,
(35:16):
because that barge is not beingutilized to make money.
It's just realized to be ababysitter for the other one.
Maybe I'll see if I can get DanNut or the Coast Guard itself
to come on here and talk moreabout it.
But that is.
The gist of it is that in NewYork Harbor and Houston shipping
channels and what's the one outof Seattle, like the corridor
right out of Seattle there's alot of resources and they're
(35:38):
very close together.
And once you get to Alaskathere's less and less resources
and longer and longer distancesthe further out you go.
Because of our lack ofinfrastructure and the costs to
make it the same as some ofthese really busy shipping ports
is too expensive for thesecommunities to actually receive
(35:59):
fuel.
It would be so astronomical.
They would just would not beable to receive fuel.
And if Alaska wants to keep itscommunities and cultures the
way they are.
We've got to have somedifferent considerations for
that, so I don't even.
I mean we can also talk abouthow protective it is of the
environment as well, because allof these ships, people, have
resources to respond.
(36:19):
It's just not the level of someof these other places in the
lower 48.
Colin (36:24):
Right and I guess, going back to why this even came up,
why we're discussing this, youknow and again I don't want to
get out of my lane and youmentioned Dan Nut and Buddy
Custer, with Chadux and JimButler.
These are the folks who live inthat world, but again it's a
nod to Alaska and our uniquecircumstances that somewhere
(36:48):
down south in Washington orwherever they wrote the CFRs
that apply, someone was payingattention to Alaska and our
unique circumstances.
You know, again, we're 46 CFRand that's where the 3302 permit
comes from, and APCs are 33 CFR.
You know 155, where where oilspill regulations come from, and
(37:12):
in either circumstance it's not, you know, it's not a way to
water down regulations, it's away to do it differently but
equally as effective andallowing people to continue on
with their way of life.
Shannon (37:27):
Yeah, I like that's very well put, Colin.
The Coast Guard has beenincredibly intent, especially in
the last few years, on gettingthat feedback and bringing it
back to Washington DC.
So I do think that things arechanging, especially as the
Northwest Passage opens up.
I mean, that's creating quite abit of focus, if you will, on
Alaska and some of the portsthat they're looking at putting
(37:50):
in on, you know, nome andKotsabue areas.
It's going to change things forthe better, probably.
So, Colin, thank you for takingus through the intricacies of
getting the state squared awayand the Coast Guard squared away
, and now you're delivering fuelfrom your craft over water.
You've got all the plans andpermits in place through a
(38:10):
really unique collaborationbetween all these different
agencies.
And I was curious as we wrapthis interview up and I
appreciate you taking the timeto talk us through it because
there really is a lot of riskinvolved in driving fuel trucks
on and off, and I think some ofthe things that your group has
done is maybe pioneering a wayto the future, like having other
(38:32):
ways to deliver fuel that areless risky.
But I was wondering if you hadany fun stories to share with us
.
I mean, I'm sure you've seen itall doing deliveries to some of
these remote locations.
Did you have anything youwanted to share with us that was
interesting or I don't know.
Surprise me.
Colin (38:50):
Yeah, yeah, it seems like every trip there's something
unique about it.
Just a couple of things thatcome to mind.
You know, we did a trip toWoody Island, which is, you know
, just outside of Kodiak.
You know, with a boatload ofcattle.
There was a busking, yeah.
Shannon (39:09):
Like real moo"cows yeah .
Colin (39:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (39:12):
What would they go into the island for, was it like?
Colin (39:15):
they put them out there.
They run wild and you knowthere's there's a Bible camp out
there and they must oversee thecattle.
They're the ones who broughtthem over, but it was
interesting to get them off theboat.
It was almost like those littlecattle grades or fences that
they have in the ground thatthey don't want to step over.
Shannon (39:36):
Oh, I bet that looks a lot like the nose of a landing
crab, exactly, exactly.
Colin (39:40):
So it took a lot of prodding to get the cattle off
the boat.
Oh my gosh.
Shannon (39:45):
Did you get cowboy hats for that delivery?
I would have had a cowboy hatstraight up One of the guys who
brought them.
Colin (39:51):
You know he was the type and you know if he was a
construction worker he'd havethe cowboy hat hard hats.
That's a nice pun.
That's crazy.
That was an interesting one.
We did a trip to Old Harbor forthe Marines and we're bringing
all kinds of supplies there andI'm looking at one of the
(40:13):
pallets and these pallets arestacked six feet high and it
turned out that, you know, wehad pallets and pallets of drink
boxes chocolate milk drinkboxes that we brought to Old
Harbor for the Marines becauseapparently, chocolate milk they
like drink boxes.
Like little sippy juice boxes,like little sippy cups or sippy
(40:36):
boxes for the, you know, some ofthe meanest, toughest people in
the world.
So, yep, that one kind of mademe laugh.
I guess everybody.
I think we're the only peoplein Alaska without a reality TV
show.
We did get approached by a groupthat wanted to make a show
(40:59):
about landing craft and cargowars between landing craft and I
told them well, you know I'minterested, but we don't do
drama, we're not going to ham itup, we don't go out in bad
weather, we just we're veryconservative and there's not a
lot of drama.
(41:20):
But boy, our customers, they'rethe story.
We can go to these spaces andyou can see how these folks live
and they're living asubsistence lifestyle and very
historical and unique.
And boy, they never called meback.
They had no interest in youknow.
Shannon (41:39):
They didn't have any interest in tough Alaskans doing
cool Alaska stuff.
They just wanted a drama.
Colin (41:43):
They just wanted drama and people yelling at each other
.
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't talktoo much about the reality TV
show industry in Alaska, but westill do not have our show, nope
.
Shannon (41:59):
You and the pirate gold of Adak came to Adak.
We had a similar request and Isaid no, thank you, I'm well
aware of.
I don't need any of that.
Colin (42:09):
So we failed to make the reality show market with our
business.
I hopefully I hope that sayssomething good about our
business that we you know didn'tmake the cut.
Shannon (42:22):
Cheers to unsexy businesses.
They last longer and do muchbetter.
Oh, Colin, thank you so muchfor sharing your time and
expertise today.
I really appreciate you walkingus through.
I know that was some complexregulations but hopefully it'll
give our listeners an idea ofwhat your group has to go
through and if anyone else inother areas of the state like
(42:45):
Western Alaska maybe want to trysomething similar, it would
give them an idea of where tostart.
Colin (42:50):
That's great and I think there's room.
You know, if anybody ever hadquestions on how to go down the
road, we have gone down.
I'm happy to help them, becauseAlaska is a big place and I
don't.
You know, we've got all thework we want and there's more of
it that needs to be done.
So, yeah, I'm glad we'vecracked the nut and we can help
(43:13):
others do the same.
Shannon (43:15):
That is an incredibly generous offer and I do hope
more people will take it,because you're right this.
We work, as you know, fromKetchikan to ADEC, all the way
up to Akiyagvik, and there is anuntapped need.
This state has so much remotework, and not even just the
communities.
There's a lot of ongoingenvironmental work and
exploration work that justexists in places where you can't
(43:39):
get deep water boat access, andthey all need things like fuel
and chocolate milk, althoughI've never heard of anyone
bringing in cattle.
That's going to go down in mydatabase of stories Fun stuff.
Yeah, all right, Colin, weappreciate the time.
Thank, you.
Colin (43:56):
Thank you very much, I enjoyed it.
Shannon (43:58):
Yeah, me too.
I'm really glad you came on,thank you.
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