December 18, 2024 • 31 mins
Unlock the secrets of vertical facilitation with Agile Coach, Trainer, and Transformation Strategist, Amy Lane, who shares her transformative journey from a hesitant coach to a proponent of this innovative approach. Discover how vertical facilitation transcends traditional coaching, allowing teams to deeply understand dynamics and emotions. Amy introduces the "five windows of attention," a tool that guides groups toward authentic growth. Listen as Amy's personal experiences, such as improving daily stand-ups, illustrate the power of addressing team interactions and fostering organic development.
Presence and active listening take center stage as we explore the profound impact of being truly attentive in today's digitally distracted world. Amy discusses intentional aspects of vertical facilitation, like creating a safe social container and using "heat experiences" to push teams toward growth. Learn about strategies like "unzipping" to tackle conflict avoidance and foster honest communication. This episode is your gateway to enhancing facilitation skills and embracing feedback as a gift for personal and professional evolution.
Discover Vertical Facilitation:
https://www.verticalfacilitator.com/
Connect with Amy:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/agileamy/
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
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So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
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That's impactagilityco, well.
Welcome back everybody.
This is Mark Metz, your hostfor the Agile Within.
I have an absolutely fantasticguest today and I've been
extremely excited to have her,and her name is Amy Lane.
Amy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Thanks, mark, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Seattle, Washington.
If I were coming to Seattle fora day, I've actually never been
there.
My wife and I have theNorthwest on our bucket list.
What's one thing that you wouldsay that I couldn't miss doing
if I were coming to Seattle?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Mark, there's so many great things, but one thing I
think is new that you might nothave heard about is Seattle
recently took down a highwaythat was in front of the
waterfront, and so now there'sthis beautiful walking park and
you can hit up the aquarium, youcan hit up Pike Market, you can
do all these things sort of atonce by taking that little
walking trail, and it's gorgeousright there along the Puget
(02:35):
Sound.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Oh, that sounds awesome, dog walking, biking,
all that.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Absolutely, and it just really has brought the city
to you know, a more accessibleplace where you can really enjoy
the aspects of the city and thehistory, but also the beautiful
waterfront scenery and themountains in the background.
It's really phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Awesome.
I'm assuming you can see MountRainier.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yes, if you're lucky Some days you know Rainier's
hiding.
But if you're lucky, you'll seeit.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Amy is a very experienced Agile coach and a
trainer, and the title fortoday's episode is called how
Vertical FacilitationTransformed a Reluctant Agile
Coach.
So vertical facilitation what'sthat all about, Amy?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, so vertical facilitation is really about
creating conditions where peopleand teams can transform how
they understand and make senseof their world.
So we're really helping themgrow sort of these inner
capabilities and mindsets.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
That sounds interesting.
Amy, Can you give us an exampleto help understand that a
little more and unpack that?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Sure, sure.
So imagine if you are workingwith a team that's kind of
struggling with a daily stand-upor a daily scrum.
Maybe it's feeling more likestatus reporting, because we see
that a lot on agile teams.
So instead of just teaching theteams about best practices
during daily scrum, you mightuse something that helps the
(04:06):
team see what's going on.
So perhaps I might say I'mobserving that most people are
looking and reporting to Sarahduring the daily scrum.
What do others notice aboutthis?
So instead of saying hey,listen everyone, this is not a
status report, it is helpingthem understand and make sense
of sort of this dynamic and thesystemic elements.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That's really interesting, because nobody
likes to be talked down to,nobody likes to feel like
they're treated like a thirdgrader, so to speak.
Sounds like it bubbles up.
Yeah, absolutely Really theconcern of what you're trying to
yep.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, for sure.
So when you think about it,oftentimes you know people are
trying to teach practices andthis helps us become aware of
how our interactions and howwe're feeling really impacts
whatever we're doing.
So in any group situation, itreally helps us pay attention to
all of that any group situation.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
It really helps us pay attention to all of that.
So I want to ask you now.
The title for the episode ishow it Transformed a Reluctant
Agile Coach.
So tell me.
I'm curious to know about thisreluctant agile coach that you
speak of, amy.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, Mark, you and I met in a coaching program.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
We did.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, a while ago, and for me none of the coaching
programs that I pursued reallyfelt natural for me and I
struggled with that, and so Ithink that's where the
reluctance comes from.
Traditional coaching felt veryprescriptive, like all of these
frameworks and competencies andall of this stuff that I was
trying to keep track of in myhead competencies and all of
(05:45):
this stuff that I was trying tokeep track of in my head,
whereas vertical facilitationresonated because it's about
kind of shaping these conditionsfor growth rather than
following a specific coachingmodel.
To me it felt more organic,almost more responsive, like
okay, what do I see that'shappening here?
And with vertical facilitationwe use kind of we have like a
secret dashboard and we callthese the five windows of
(06:05):
attention.
And with vertical facilitationwe use kind of we have like a
secret dashboard and we callthese the five windows of
attention, and we're payingattention to these five windows
of attention in verticalfacilitation in order to help us
kind of shift and guide thegroup in a way that creates that
organic growth.
I'll bet you want to know whatthose five windows of attention
are.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Absolutely can't wait .
I'm at the edge of my seat.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah Well, so when we think about it, if we have a
group of people, the fivewindows of attention are
obviously you as a facilitator.
What's going on with you?
Are you waiting for a packageto get delivered?
Did you have a bad morning?
So how you show up and yourpresence could impact the group.
So that's one of our fivewindows.
(06:49):
We also have the individuals.
Are each individual feelingopen or maybe are they stuck in
what they're doing?
We also have the field and thisis one of my favorites because,
mark, I don't know if you and Ihave talked about I sort of have
a background in theater as wellas agile coaching.
So I often think about sort ofthat field, the vibe, the tone,
(07:12):
the mood, what's going on, andI'll often say know your
audience in that way, but inthis case, know the group that
you're working with.
How are they feeling?
You know what's the vibehappening.
So you want to pay attention tothat.
You want to pay attention tothat.
You want to pay attention togroup dynamics or the
interrelation of the group.
Do we have a leader in the roomand then a bunch of people that
(07:35):
feel like they can't speakfreely?
Maybe they don't have thesafety, to say what they really
think or to bring up issues.
So that's our interrelation.
And then we have content.
Are we just so focused on thecontent, whether it's a slide,
whether it's a concept, are wejust 100% focused on the content
, that we are losing sight ofall these other elements that
make up those five windows ofattention?
So let me recap for you Allright, those five windows of
(07:59):
attention are our individuals,the field, the interrelation,
the content and then ourself.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
What's interesting to me about that in observations
I've had, is the differentangles you get when you talk to
an individual, versus you'retalking to an individual within
a group.
Because, like you say, thereare some dynamics of a group and
while some person, if you talkto them one-on-one, they almost
(08:28):
have one persona, but then whenthey join a group, those
dynamics are totally different.
And what's really fascinatingis all right, we're going to
introduce one more person intothis team or this group.
It's almost like there's atotal different dynamic, or you
remove somebody from that group.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Absolutely.
And don't we coach our teamsthat say, hey, listen, we need
to create a new workingagreement when our team members
change.
Right, because it is, thedynamic has completely changed.
You're impacting the system byadding or removing or adjusting.
And so back to that questionabout reluctant coaching.
(09:08):
You know, when I think aboutsort of the traditional coaching
, even with teams, it was stillkind of individualistic.
You're working with peopleone-on-one and, like you just
said, mark, somebody's opinionor what they say one-on-one,
might shift when they're withthe group, and it's not that
they're not being honest or thatthey've changed their mind,
(09:29):
it's just that all of theseelements are working to change
how they might react or be ableto interact with the group.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I would even argue that you have one-on-one
interactions and maybe you have,let's say, a triad where you
have two people from the teaminteracting with you.
They almost have their owndynamic and those two can
actually change and morph whenthey join a larger group.
Would you agree?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Absolutely.
And I would say, mark, that youand I might have even
experienced that in a programthat we were in, where we had we
were working in a group and thedynamics, I think, were a
little bit difficult, and youknow, I think that we
experienced this before.
I, you know, found out aboutvertical facilitation and it was
just interesting now to put thelens on and look back and say,
(10:21):
oh, wow, okay, so this isprobably what was happening
there.
As a vertical facilitator, youreally do have a different lens,
so you might think you'redeveloping these muscles almost
of being able to note and senseall of these things at once, and
that can be really exhaustingat first, but once you start
(10:45):
doing it, you almost can't stop.
As I've gone through thisvertical facilitation program,
I've often said that it's almostlike a shadow, and not in a
negative way.
It's like a sunny day and yourshadow's following you
everywhere you go.
And with vertical facilitation,once you start in this practice
, that shadow is just kind ofthere reminding you of all these
(11:06):
other elements that you mightconsider when you're interacting
.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So, as you're using this approach, help me
understand here, amy.
Are you writing these thingsdown for these five different
windows of attention, to be ableto monitor those?
I'll just go ahead and say it'shard enough for me to get one
thing right, much less fiveRight.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I would say that these are tools that you can
weave in and out depending onyour style, depending on the
situation.
So, whether you're with a groupin person or if you're on a
group, say, video meeting, youmight have more or less ability.
What happens when you're on agroup like, let's say, a video
(11:50):
meeting, and three-fourths ofthe people aren't on camera?
So you really need to kind ofbuild those muscles in this
practice so that you can pick upon those clues.
And one of the other importantthings in vertical facilitation
is your own presence, right, howyou show up.
Developing your own presencecan really be something powerful
(12:13):
, and this is something that Ialways had an awareness of, but
I didn't know how it was reallyimpacting others.
My presence, whether it was inperson or through the miracle of
technology, my presence, how itcan really impact people.
And through this work I'velearned how to improve that
(12:35):
presence, and not only thatpresence, but also the ability
to be present.
So we always talk about activelistening, and this is a lot of
what we're doing in verticalfacilitation as well.
It's listening, looking,sensing, all of these things
brought together.
So it is a lot, but once youstart to do it, you can't stop.
It's kind looking, sensing allof these things brought together
.
So it is a lot, but once youstart to do it, you can't stop.
(12:55):
It's kind of like eating potatochips, mark.
Oh wait, I have another idea,right.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
One of the aspects that I particularly like is that
, yes, at first thought I'mthinking, wow, this is
overwhelming to try to keep allfive of these aspects, but what
it does is I've got to be payingattention, so I can't, I cannot
(13:22):
be multitasking if I'm going tomaintain these five different
windows of attention and be ableto understand the nuanced
situations that happen, becausethese aren't going to be obvious
.
Sometimes, like you said,cameras are off.
You have to pick up on otherclues.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Absolutely, and that's really hard in this day
and age, right, because thereare so many things, so many
screens and so many things thatare drawing our attention.
So the ability to really payattention and to be present,
deeply present in the moment issomething that really will help
you in this work.
I think one of the ways that wecan really get started doing
(13:58):
this work is noticing how muchwe are paying attention and sort
of observing.
And no, you don't have to writedown all the windows of
attention and if you werefollowing each one or not, but
one good way is to sort of jotdown when you've had an
interaction, kind of where youwere coming from, how you felt,
(14:18):
what you thought was happening,and begin to sense these
patterns in yourself and in yourown responses so that it's
easier for you to recognize themwhen you see them coming up
with groups.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Okay, so we've talked about the five windows of
attention.
What are the other parts ofvertical facilitation, Amy?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
So vertical facilitation I think when we've
been talking about it so far, itjust sounds like oh okay, I'm
just kind of going with the flowand I don't think it's that.
There is a lot about flow andsensing environments and
people's feelings and what'sgoing on, but it's also very
intentional.
And so in vertical facilitationwe have some meta design
(15:03):
elements that we want to createfor people.
We're paying attention tosomething like the social
container as a group.
Does the group feel safe?
Are they able to interact witheach other in a way that really
helps strengthen this ability tomake meaning, make sense of
their organization or what'shappening?
So one of the things that wemight use is something called a
(15:25):
heat experience.
Now, I'm sure that you havefelt the heat experience, mark.
It's sometimes when you arejust pushed a little bit towards
the edge where you feeluncomfortable, but you still
feel safe.
So by cultivating these heatexperiences, by paying attention
and understanding what's goingon in a group, you can say, hmm,
(15:46):
maybe there's a chance righthere for me to push a little bit
and get a little more out ofthe group.
Help them see what's happeningin their system, help them grow
a little bit as a group and it'sfascinating to watch.
And I recently had theopportunity to run a workshop in
(16:07):
person with a group where Idesigned intentional heat
experiences for them.
You know you're a littlenervous.
How are they going to react tothis?
Are they going to refuse?
And it was really wonderful.
And I think one of the thingsabout being a vertical
facilitator that was differentfor me than how I view
traditional coaching is that, asa vertical facilitator, I am
(16:31):
also going to be reallydeliberate and say you know what
I'm going to unzip here andtell you what I'm thinking.
I'm going to tell you what I'mseeing, and that's one of our
tools as well.
We unzip and we say oh, youknow, mark and I are having this
conversation and it's not goinghow we expected it.
That's okay, let's see what wecan do now, right, and it's not
(16:53):
that we want to show up and beperfect for everyone.
We want to show them that, hey,here's what's going on, here's
the dynamic I'm seeing.
And this can be beneficial,like we talked about with that
example of the daily scrum.
Or maybe there's an instancewhere you have a group that's
avoiding conflict.
There's an instance where youhave a group that's avoiding
(17:14):
conflict.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm sure we've seen that before right?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
No, surely not.
So we could use something, wecould design an agreement in
that social container Imentioned to say hey, let's
agree that when we are avoidingconflict, that it's okay to call
that out.
You know how many times have weused Elmo as a way to say
enough, let's move on.
When someone's going on and on,I would argue that that is one
of our tools that we might use.
(17:42):
We're creating an agreementthat the group says hey, if I
tell you to quit talking, it'sokay and don't have your
feelings hurt.
So, similarly, in verticalfacilitation, we're helping name
sort of those elephants in theroom so that the team can
develop and grow in theirability to work together.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
There's some energy that just gets created when you
just speak the elephant in theroom.
It's like nobody even wants tomake mention of it, right, much
less pop the bubble and reallyhave a conversation about it.
But once you can show thatbravery, maybe on behalf of the
other team and, who knows, amy Iwould think that after a while
(18:23):
the team will learn.
I don't have to wait for Amy toannounce the elephant in the
room.
It's okay for me to do that.
Have you seen that?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yes, definitely, and it's kind of magical the way
that this works.
And there's a phrase I'd like tosort of teach you, mark, if you
don't mind, please.
Okay, so this is a reallypowerful phrase that we use in
vertical facilitation, and it'ssimple, it is what I make up.
So here's an example I wasworking with a group of people
(18:58):
and you know the outcome wasn'tyou know what I was hoping for
or what I expected to see.
And so instead of saying, well,I think this isn't working
right, instead of putting it inmy perspective that way, I
rephrase it and I say what Imake up is people still don't
feel safe enough to continuewith this work.
So I'm almost giving them thenpermission to correct me.
(19:22):
Oh no, amy, we feel safe, butit's X, y or Z that's causing
the problem.
And this little phrase, what Imake up, is so powerful, whether
it's face-to-face conversationsor in an email, it's this
ability to say hey, here's howI'm viewing this, and I'm almost
inviting you to tell me thatI'm wrong and then to tell me
(19:44):
why.
And it is so organic andamazing and it works 99.9% of
the time.
That's my guarantee.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So it sounds to me almost like, if you're familiar
with the term a straw man,you're putting something
together that is somewhatintentionally wrong, but it's a
start.
So you're not starting at theground level and then, once you
see it, then you can startsaying, no, I want to change
this, or I want to change that.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I would say that you want to be authentic, right, you
don't want to just, you know,make up wild things.
But you might just say you know, what I make up here is that,
mark, you're not talking becauseyou don't feel comfortable in
this space, or whatever the casemight be, and you might say, no
, I'm just tired and I don'tfeel like talking.
(20:35):
You want to balance that.
You don't want to make it bealmost like I'm leading the
audience here, I'm leading thegroup.
You want to say you know, whatI'm making up here is X and it
almost invites.
You know, we talk a lot aboutinflicting versus inviting, you
know, in agile coaching, so italmost invites people to correct
(20:58):
or to explain more what'shappening or how they see the
dynamic, and it's super organicand it's really amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Do you call it, we move.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
We move.
What I make up is yeah.
No, I actually have never usedthat, that's all right.
You've coined a new phrasethere, Mark, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So, amy, I want to go back to one of your earlier
points, and you talked aboutpresence, because not presence
as in we're coming up on theholiday season, but presence as
in being present.
How do you cultivate that?
How do you multiply that forpeople to be more present in
this age, like you said, of cellphones and smartwatches and
(21:44):
notifications coming up to avoidmultitasking?
Yeah, to be present.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Absolutely so.
Presence really starts with aclear stand and understanding
why you, the verticalfacilitator, are fundamentally
committed to this work.
Right?
So why is it important?
Why am I doing this?
You really want to explore that, and so in this work in
vertical facilitation, which wasled by Michael Hammond and Lisa
(22:12):
Adkins, it was amazing.
We really focused on what ourstand was and understanding like
, why are we doing this and whatdo we really?
What's the difference we reallywant to make in the world?
And when you have that standand things start to maybe go off
the rails or you're feelingtriggered or something happens,
being able to remind yourself ofwhat that stand is brings you
(22:34):
back to your presence and itenables you to really then guide
the group more clearly.
I was recently again in asituation where I was
facilitating an activity wherewe were supposed to have
everyone in person sitting at adesk and it was, you know,
creative.
We were going to draw andsketch.
Well, lo and behold, none ofthem came in person and it
(22:59):
turned into people dialed in andthey weren't necessarily on
camera.
So in the past I might havebecome triggered and stressed
out because everything I hadplanned out was for people that
were in person.
Now I just have peoplevirtually.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Oh wow.
So you had all of thispreparation done for an
in-person, on-site meeting andthen everybody decides to.
I'm just going to dial in.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, and I was fascinated to sort of again look
at my own self and I went backto my stance and my stand is
that you know, creative I wantpeople to always access their
creativity in all things.
So creativity is a big,important thread for me and so I
was thinking how can we stillbe creative even though they're
(23:47):
online and there in the moment,I was able to pivot, adjust and
create that container for thatparticular group meeting that we
were having.
That still was creative.
That we took cell phone photosof things that we sketched on
the screen.
I drew stickies that they wouldhave drawn and I listened to
(24:11):
what they were saying and said,hey, is that what you're saying?
And it still turned into thisreally productive, amazing,
great group outcome that I thinkthat prior to me having done
this work, I would have felt alittle stuck by.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I can very easily see the temptation of we just need
to cancel for today and we'llcome back at this at a later
time when I have a chance toclear my head so for you to be
able to, on the fly, be able tochange this format that you had
prepared for and have thiscurveball thrown to you.
I think that's absolutelyamazing.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I was thrilled.
And looking back, I really haveto credit this work in vertical
facilitation for giving me theideas and the models and the
practices to do this workfluidly and fluently.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So, amy, you've really been sinking your teeth
into vertical facilitation andit sounds like it's been very
successful for you.
I'm curious to know what typeof exercises have you used for
this?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, thanks, mark.
So I think one of the things isfirst, being able to track your
awareness, right?
Am I paying attention?
Being able to track yourawareness, right?
Am I paying attention?
That is a muscle that you needto grow to really help your
sensing capacity, because ifyou're not paying attention,
you're not going to noticewhat's happening with the group.
Also, that practice of sayingwhat I make up or articulating
(25:45):
what you see is happening.
For example, when we talkedabout the daily scrum and hey,
I'm noticing that everyone isreporting like a status to Sarah
.
Why is that happening?
Why do we think that'shappening?
You know, I'm just stating afact, so doing that can really
help.
And then also finding ways toget feedback about your impact
(26:08):
and I know feedback is an F wordfor a lot of people.
Right, it's scary, you know,feedback is scary because you
feel like you're being judged.
But when you look at feedbackand said as a gift right, which
we've all heard that feedback isa gift it really helps you
understand how you're comingacross, how people are reacting
to you, and can really help youimprove this practice.
(26:28):
I would say think about why youdo what you do, so develop your
stand, get feedback on howyou're showing up and just pay
attention and then say the thingout loud.
Hey, what I'm noticing is thisand with those four exercises,
you can really start to honeyour vertical facilitation
(26:49):
skills.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Could I share with you one of my little superpowers
related to presence.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yes, please.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
One of the things that people noticed about me is
I was a great note taker and forme it was very helpful to stay
engaged and understand theconversation if I forced myself
to take notes, because I had tounderstand it enough to be able
to write something that I wouldremember later.
But what that had an effect onme is that you can't see me in
(27:19):
this audio podcast right now.
But my head was down, I waspinned to the paper and I was
trying very hard.
I was writing okay, no,scribble that out.
No, I need to summarize and putthis.
And okay, move this sectionover here so that when I got
done I could come back, and itwas great for recall.
And so then I later had atransformation where I worked
(27:41):
where I did digital notes and Ivery rarely take handwritten
notes anymore.
It's all digital notes.
But if you can imagine howoff-putting that can be to have
someone sitting there with theirface in the keyboard monitor
and just voraciously typing away, you really feel disconnected.
And that was a way that I wasdoing a disservice to people.
(28:03):
It was for a good cause.
I felt like I was doing goodwhen I was doing one-on-one,
that I could hand these veryhigh-fidelity notes over, but I
wasn't very present.
So at this advent of artificialintelligence also, I've come
across some tools that canautomate that.
So I don't have to feel like,oh, I've got to scribble all
(28:25):
this down, I've got to write allthis down.
I have the freedom to just put100% of my attention on you
right now, Amy, and let the AItake care of taking the notes
and it'll actually give me atranscript.
It'll give me a summary ofmultiple different levels of a
high-level summary and then adetail-level summary.
I don't have to worry that I'mmissing something that's
(28:47):
important.
Maybe that's a clue to somebodyout there who's a note taker
like me.
Make sure that you are beingpresent and you aren't
sacrificing your note takingability and being able to
translate this information atthe cost of not providing a safe
space to someone.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I love that, mark, and I think that that is one of
the great uses of AI issomething like that where you
are able to bring your humanityfull front and present and have
this tool that's doing thisother thing for you and, yes,
that's also valuable.
(29:25):
But AI can never replace thishuman-to-human connection by
being present.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
All right, amy.
So I'm like foamy at the mouthnow really super interested in
vertical facilitation.
Where can I go, where can ourlisteners go, to find out more
about this?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Well, I would recommend that you look at
Evolve Agility.
That's Michael Hammond'swebsite.
He is doing all of the work inthis space right now and I know
that he's running severalcohorts of people that are
learning vertical facilitation,so I would check out Michael
Hammond and he would love totalk about it.
(30:08):
He also has written a book, soI think that there's lots of
opportunities to learn more.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
We'll be sure and put those links in the show notes
to make it easy for people toaccess that.
And what about you, Amy?
If people want to reach out toyou, what's the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Well, you can certainly always find me on
LinkedIn you can't miss me andI'm happy to chat with folks if
they want to learn more aboutthis and hear more about my
experiences in verticalfacilitation and all the other
great agile stuff that I havegoing on.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
So I will just give a personal plug.
If you're not following AmyLane, I would highly suggest
doing that.
You won't regret it.
We'll put a link in the shownotes, because I'm pretty sure
you're not the only Amy Lane onLinkedIn, so we'll make sure and
do that.
Amy, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
Consider you a friend.
Thank you so much for your timeand being on here.
(30:59):
This was very helpful andeducational to me.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Thanks, Mark.
It's always great to talk toyou.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Awesome.
All right, everybody.
That's going to bring an end toanother episode of the Agile
Within.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the Agile
Within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
(31:26):
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Welcome to the Agile Within.
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That's impactagilityco, well.
Welcome back everybody.
This is Mark Metz, your hostfor the Agile Within.
I have an absolutely fantasticguest today and I've been
extremely excited to have her,and her name is Amy Lane.
Amy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Thanks, mark, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Seattle, Washington.
If I were coming to Seattle fora day, I've actually never been
there.
My wife and I have theNorthwest on our bucket list.
What's one thing that you wouldsay that I couldn't miss doing
if I were coming to Seattle?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Mark, there's so many great things, but one thing I
think is new that you might nothave heard about is Seattle
recently took down a highwaythat was in front of the
waterfront, and so now there'sthis beautiful walking park and
you can hit up the aquarium, youcan hit up Pike Market, you can
do all these things sort of atonce by taking that little
walking trail, and it's gorgeousright there along the Puget
(02:35):
Sound.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Oh, that sounds awesome, dog walking, biking,
all that.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Absolutely, and it just really has brought the city
to you know, a more accessibleplace where you can really enjoy
the aspects of the city and thehistory, but also the beautiful
waterfront scenery and themountains in the background.
It's really phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Awesome.
I'm assuming you can see MountRainier.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yes, if you're lucky Some days you know Rainier's
hiding.
But if you're lucky, you'll seeit.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Amy is a very experienced Agile coach and a
trainer, and the title fortoday's episode is called how
Vertical FacilitationTransformed a Reluctant Agile
Coach.
So vertical facilitation what'sthat all about, Amy?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, so vertical facilitation is really about
creating conditions where peopleand teams can transform how
they understand and make senseof their world.
So we're really helping themgrow sort of these inner
capabilities and mindsets.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
That sounds interesting.
Amy, Can you give us an exampleto help understand that a
little more and unpack that?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Sure, sure.
So imagine if you are workingwith a team that's kind of
struggling with a daily stand-upor a daily scrum.
Maybe it's feeling more likestatus reporting, because we see
that a lot on agile teams.
So instead of just teaching theteams about best practices
during daily scrum, you mightuse something that helps the
(04:06):
team see what's going on.
So perhaps I might say I'mobserving that most people are
looking and reporting to Sarahduring the daily scrum.
What do others notice aboutthis?
So instead of saying hey,listen everyone, this is not a
status report, it is helpingthem understand and make sense
of sort of this dynamic and thesystemic elements.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That's really interesting, because nobody
likes to be talked down to,nobody likes to feel like
they're treated like a thirdgrader, so to speak.
Sounds like it bubbles up.
Yeah, absolutely Really theconcern of what you're trying to
yep.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, for sure.
So when you think about it,oftentimes you know people are
trying to teach practices andthis helps us become aware of
how our interactions and howwe're feeling really impacts
whatever we're doing.
So in any group situation, itreally helps us pay attention to
all of that any group situation.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
It really helps us pay attention to all of that.
So I want to ask you now.
The title for the episode ishow it Transformed a Reluctant
Agile Coach.
So tell me.
I'm curious to know about thisreluctant agile coach that you
speak of, amy.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, Mark, you and I met in a coaching program.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
We did.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, a while ago, and for me none of the coaching
programs that I pursued reallyfelt natural for me and I
struggled with that, and so Ithink that's where the
reluctance comes from.
Traditional coaching felt veryprescriptive, like all of these
frameworks and competencies andall of this stuff that I was
trying to keep track of in myhead competencies and all of
(05:45):
this stuff that I was trying tokeep track of in my head,
whereas vertical facilitationresonated because it's about
kind of shaping these conditionsfor growth rather than
following a specific coachingmodel.
To me it felt more organic,almost more responsive, like
okay, what do I see that'shappening here?
And with vertical facilitationwe use kind of we have like a
secret dashboard and we callthese the five windows of
(06:05):
attention.
And with vertical facilitationwe use kind of we have like a
secret dashboard and we callthese the five windows of
attention, and we're payingattention to these five windows
of attention in verticalfacilitation in order to help us
kind of shift and guide thegroup in a way that creates that
organic growth.
I'll bet you want to know whatthose five windows of attention
are.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Absolutely can't wait .
I'm at the edge of my seat.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah Well, so when we think about it, if we have a
group of people, the fivewindows of attention are
obviously you as a facilitator.
What's going on with you?
Are you waiting for a packageto get delivered?
Did you have a bad morning?
So how you show up and yourpresence could impact the group.
So that's one of our fivewindows.
(06:49):
We also have the individuals.
Are each individual feelingopen or maybe are they stuck in
what they're doing?
We also have the field and thisis one of my favorites because,
mark, I don't know if you and Ihave talked about I sort of have
a background in theater as wellas agile coaching.
So I often think about sort ofthat field, the vibe, the tone,
(07:12):
the mood, what's going on, andI'll often say know your
audience in that way, but inthis case, know the group that
you're working with.
How are they feeling?
You know what's the vibehappening.
So you want to pay attention tothat.
You want to pay attention tothat.
You want to pay attention togroup dynamics or the
interrelation of the group.
Do we have a leader in the roomand then a bunch of people that
(07:35):
feel like they can't speakfreely?
Maybe they don't have thesafety, to say what they really
think or to bring up issues.
So that's our interrelation.
And then we have content.
Are we just so focused on thecontent, whether it's a slide,
whether it's a concept, are wejust 100% focused on the content
, that we are losing sight ofall these other elements that
make up those five windows ofattention?
So let me recap for you Allright, those five windows of
(07:59):
attention are our individuals,the field, the interrelation,
the content and then ourself.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
What's interesting to me about that in observations
I've had, is the differentangles you get when you talk to
an individual, versus you'retalking to an individual within
a group.
Because, like you say, thereare some dynamics of a group and
while some person, if you talkto them one-on-one, they almost
(08:28):
have one persona, but then whenthey join a group, those
dynamics are totally different.
And what's really fascinatingis all right, we're going to
introduce one more person intothis team or this group.
It's almost like there's atotal different dynamic, or you
remove somebody from that group.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Absolutely.
And don't we coach our teamsthat say, hey, listen, we need
to create a new workingagreement when our team members
change.
Right, because it is, thedynamic has completely changed.
You're impacting the system byadding or removing or adjusting.
And so back to that questionabout reluctant coaching.
(09:08):
You know, when I think aboutsort of the traditional coaching
, even with teams, it was stillkind of individualistic.
You're working with peopleone-on-one and, like you just
said, mark, somebody's opinionor what they say one-on-one,
might shift when they're withthe group, and it's not that
they're not being honest or thatthey've changed their mind,
(09:29):
it's just that all of theseelements are working to change
how they might react or be ableto interact with the group.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I would even argue that you have one-on-one
interactions and maybe you have,let's say, a triad where you
have two people from the teaminteracting with you.
They almost have their owndynamic and those two can
actually change and morph whenthey join a larger group.
Would you agree?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Absolutely.
And I would say, mark, that youand I might have even
experienced that in a programthat we were in, where we had we
were working in a group and thedynamics, I think, were a
little bit difficult, and youknow, I think that we
experienced this before.
I, you know, found out aboutvertical facilitation and it was
just interesting now to put thelens on and look back and say,
(10:21):
oh, wow, okay, so this isprobably what was happening
there.
As a vertical facilitator, youreally do have a different lens,
so you might think you'redeveloping these muscles almost
of being able to note and senseall of these things at once, and
that can be really exhaustingat first, but once you start
(10:45):
doing it, you almost can't stop.
As I've gone through thisvertical facilitation program,
I've often said that it's almostlike a shadow, and not in a
negative way.
It's like a sunny day and yourshadow's following you
everywhere you go.
And with vertical facilitation,once you start in this practice
, that shadow is just kind ofthere reminding you of all these
(11:06):
other elements that you mightconsider when you're interacting
.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So, as you're using this approach, help me
understand here, amy.
Are you writing these thingsdown for these five different
windows of attention, to be ableto monitor those?
I'll just go ahead and say it'shard enough for me to get one
thing right, much less fiveRight.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I would say that these are tools that you can
weave in and out depending onyour style, depending on the
situation.
So, whether you're with a groupin person or if you're on a
group, say, video meeting, youmight have more or less ability.
What happens when you're on agroup like, let's say, a video
(11:50):
meeting, and three-fourths ofthe people aren't on camera?
So you really need to kind ofbuild those muscles in this
practice so that you can pick upon those clues.
And one of the other importantthings in vertical facilitation
is your own presence, right, howyou show up.
Developing your own presencecan really be something powerful
(12:13):
, and this is something that Ialways had an awareness of, but
I didn't know how it was reallyimpacting others.
My presence, whether it was inperson or through the miracle of
technology, my presence, how itcan really impact people.
And through this work I'velearned how to improve that
(12:35):
presence, and not only thatpresence, but also the ability
to be present.
So we always talk about activelistening, and this is a lot of
what we're doing in verticalfacilitation as well.
It's listening, looking,sensing, all of these things
brought together.
So it is a lot, but once youstart to do it, you can't stop.
It's kind looking, sensing allof these things brought together
.
So it is a lot, but once youstart to do it, you can't stop.
(12:55):
It's kind of like eating potatochips, mark.
Oh wait, I have another idea,right.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
One of the aspects that I particularly like is that
, yes, at first thought I'mthinking, wow, this is
overwhelming to try to keep allfive of these aspects, but what
it does is I've got to be payingattention, so I can't, I cannot
(13:22):
be multitasking if I'm going tomaintain these five different
windows of attention and be ableto understand the nuanced
situations that happen, becausethese aren't going to be obvious
.
Sometimes, like you said,cameras are off.
You have to pick up on otherclues.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Absolutely, and that's really hard in this day
and age, right, because thereare so many things, so many
screens and so many things thatare drawing our attention.
So the ability to really payattention and to be present,
deeply present in the moment issomething that really will help
you in this work.
I think one of the ways that wecan really get started doing
(13:58):
this work is noticing how muchwe are paying attention and sort
of observing.
And no, you don't have to writedown all the windows of
attention and if you werefollowing each one or not, but
one good way is to sort of jotdown when you've had an
interaction, kind of where youwere coming from, how you felt,
(14:18):
what you thought was happening,and begin to sense these
patterns in yourself and in yourown responses so that it's
easier for you to recognize themwhen you see them coming up
with groups.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Okay, so we've talked about the five windows of
attention.
What are the other parts ofvertical facilitation, Amy?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
So vertical facilitation I think when we've
been talking about it so far, itjust sounds like oh okay, I'm
just kind of going with the flowand I don't think it's that.
There is a lot about flow andsensing environments and
people's feelings and what'sgoing on, but it's also very
intentional.
And so in vertical facilitationwe have some meta design
(15:03):
elements that we want to createfor people.
We're paying attention tosomething like the social
container as a group.
Does the group feel safe?
Are they able to interact witheach other in a way that really
helps strengthen this ability tomake meaning, make sense of
their organization or what'shappening?
So one of the things that wemight use is something called a
(15:25):
heat experience.
Now, I'm sure that you havefelt the heat experience, mark.
It's sometimes when you arejust pushed a little bit towards
the edge where you feeluncomfortable, but you still
feel safe.
So by cultivating these heatexperiences, by paying attention
and understanding what's goingon in a group, you can say, hmm,
(15:46):
maybe there's a chance righthere for me to push a little bit
and get a little more out ofthe group.
Help them see what's happeningin their system, help them grow
a little bit as a group and it'sfascinating to watch.
And I recently had theopportunity to run a workshop in
(16:07):
person with a group where Idesigned intentional heat
experiences for them.
You know you're a littlenervous.
How are they going to react tothis?
Are they going to refuse?
And it was really wonderful.
And I think one of the thingsabout being a vertical
facilitator that was differentfor me than how I view
traditional coaching is that, asa vertical facilitator, I am
(16:31):
also going to be reallydeliberate and say you know what
I'm going to unzip here andtell you what I'm thinking.
I'm going to tell you what I'mseeing, and that's one of our
tools as well.
We unzip and we say oh, youknow, mark and I are having this
conversation and it's not goinghow we expected it.
That's okay, let's see what wecan do now, right, and it's not
(16:53):
that we want to show up and beperfect for everyone.
We want to show them that, hey,here's what's going on, here's
the dynamic I'm seeing.
And this can be beneficial,like we talked about with that
example of the daily scrum.
Or maybe there's an instancewhere you have a group that's
avoiding conflict.
There's an instance where youhave a group that's avoiding
(17:14):
conflict.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm sure we've seen that before right?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
No, surely not.
So we could use something, wecould design an agreement in
that social container Imentioned to say hey, let's
agree that when we are avoidingconflict, that it's okay to call
that out.
You know how many times have weused Elmo as a way to say
enough, let's move on.
When someone's going on and on,I would argue that that is one
of our tools that we might use.
(17:42):
We're creating an agreementthat the group says hey, if I
tell you to quit talking, it'sokay and don't have your
feelings hurt.
So, similarly, in verticalfacilitation, we're helping name
sort of those elephants in theroom so that the team can
develop and grow in theirability to work together.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
There's some energy that just gets created when you
just speak the elephant in theroom.
It's like nobody even wants tomake mention of it, right, much
less pop the bubble and reallyhave a conversation about it.
But once you can show thatbravery, maybe on behalf of the
other team and, who knows, amy Iwould think that after a while
(18:23):
the team will learn.
I don't have to wait for Amy toannounce the elephant in the
room.
It's okay for me to do that.
Have you seen that?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yes, definitely, and it's kind of magical the way
that this works.
And there's a phrase I'd like tosort of teach you, mark, if you
don't mind, please.
Okay, so this is a reallypowerful phrase that we use in
vertical facilitation, and it'ssimple, it is what I make up.
So here's an example I wasworking with a group of people
(18:58):
and you know the outcome wasn'tyou know what I was hoping for
or what I expected to see.
And so instead of saying, well,I think this isn't working
right, instead of putting it inmy perspective that way, I
rephrase it and I say what Imake up is people still don't
feel safe enough to continuewith this work.
So I'm almost giving them thenpermission to correct me.
(19:22):
Oh no, amy, we feel safe, butit's X, y or Z that's causing
the problem.
And this little phrase, what Imake up, is so powerful, whether
it's face-to-face conversationsor in an email, it's this
ability to say hey, here's howI'm viewing this, and I'm almost
inviting you to tell me thatI'm wrong and then to tell me
(19:44):
why.
And it is so organic andamazing and it works 99.9% of
the time.
That's my guarantee.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So it sounds to me almost like, if you're familiar
with the term a straw man,you're putting something
together that is somewhatintentionally wrong, but it's a
start.
So you're not starting at theground level and then, once you
see it, then you can startsaying, no, I want to change
this, or I want to change that.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I would say that you want to be authentic, right, you
don't want to just, you know,make up wild things.
But you might just say you know, what I make up here is that,
mark, you're not talking becauseyou don't feel comfortable in
this space, or whatever the casemight be, and you might say, no
, I'm just tired and I don'tfeel like talking.
(20:35):
You want to balance that.
You don't want to make it bealmost like I'm leading the
audience here, I'm leading thegroup.
You want to say you know, whatI'm making up here is X and it
almost invites.
You know, we talk a lot aboutinflicting versus inviting, you
know, in agile coaching, so italmost invites people to correct
(20:58):
or to explain more what'shappening or how they see the
dynamic, and it's super organicand it's really amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Do you call it, we move.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
We move.
What I make up is yeah.
No, I actually have never usedthat, that's all right.
You've coined a new phrasethere, Mark, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So, amy, I want to go back to one of your earlier
points, and you talked aboutpresence, because not presence
as in we're coming up on theholiday season, but presence as
in being present.
How do you cultivate that?
How do you multiply that forpeople to be more present in
this age, like you said, of cellphones and smartwatches and
(21:44):
notifications coming up to avoidmultitasking?
Yeah, to be present.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Absolutely so.
Presence really starts with aclear stand and understanding
why you, the verticalfacilitator, are fundamentally
committed to this work.
Right?
So why is it important?
Why am I doing this?
You really want to explore that, and so in this work in
vertical facilitation, which wasled by Michael Hammond and Lisa
(22:12):
Adkins, it was amazing.
We really focused on what ourstand was and understanding like
, why are we doing this and whatdo we really?
What's the difference we reallywant to make in the world?
And when you have that standand things start to maybe go off
the rails or you're feelingtriggered or something happens,
being able to remind yourself ofwhat that stand is brings you
(22:34):
back to your presence and itenables you to really then guide
the group more clearly.
I was recently again in asituation where I was
facilitating an activity wherewe were supposed to have
everyone in person sitting at adesk and it was, you know,
creative.
We were going to draw andsketch.
Well, lo and behold, none ofthem came in person and it
(22:59):
turned into people dialed in andthey weren't necessarily on
camera.
So in the past I might havebecome triggered and stressed
out because everything I hadplanned out was for people that
were in person.
Now I just have peoplevirtually.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Oh wow.
So you had all of thispreparation done for an
in-person, on-site meeting andthen everybody decides to.
I'm just going to dial in.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, and I was fascinated to sort of again look
at my own self and I went backto my stance and my stand is
that you know, creative I wantpeople to always access their
creativity in all things.
So creativity is a big,important thread for me and so I
was thinking how can we stillbe creative even though they're
(23:47):
online and there in the moment,I was able to pivot, adjust and
create that container for thatparticular group meeting that we
were having.
That still was creative.
That we took cell phone photosof things that we sketched on
the screen.
I drew stickies that they wouldhave drawn and I listened to
(24:11):
what they were saying and said,hey, is that what you're saying?
And it still turned into thisreally productive, amazing,
great group outcome that I thinkthat prior to me having done
this work, I would have felt alittle stuck by.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I can very easily see the temptation of we just need
to cancel for today and we'llcome back at this at a later
time when I have a chance toclear my head so for you to be
able to, on the fly, be able tochange this format that you had
prepared for and have thiscurveball thrown to you.
I think that's absolutelyamazing.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I was thrilled.
And looking back, I really haveto credit this work in vertical
facilitation for giving me theideas and the models and the
practices to do this workfluidly and fluently.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So, amy, you've really been sinking your teeth
into vertical facilitation andit sounds like it's been very
successful for you.
I'm curious to know what typeof exercises have you used for
this?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, thanks, mark.
So I think one of the things isfirst, being able to track your
awareness, right?
Am I paying attention?
Being able to track yourawareness, right?
Am I paying attention?
That is a muscle that you needto grow to really help your
sensing capacity, because ifyou're not paying attention,
you're not going to noticewhat's happening with the group.
Also, that practice of sayingwhat I make up or articulating
(25:45):
what you see is happening.
For example, when we talkedabout the daily scrum and hey,
I'm noticing that everyone isreporting like a status to Sarah
.
Why is that happening?
Why do we think that'shappening?
You know, I'm just stating afact, so doing that can really
help.
And then also finding ways toget feedback about your impact
(26:08):
and I know feedback is an F wordfor a lot of people.
Right, it's scary, you know,feedback is scary because you
feel like you're being judged.
But when you look at feedbackand said as a gift right, which
we've all heard that feedback isa gift it really helps you
understand how you're comingacross, how people are reacting
to you, and can really help youimprove this practice.
(26:28):
I would say think about why youdo what you do, so develop your
stand, get feedback on howyou're showing up and just pay
attention and then say the thingout loud.
Hey, what I'm noticing is thisand with those four exercises,
you can really start to honeyour vertical facilitation
(26:49):
skills.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Could I share with you one of my little superpowers
related to presence.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yes, please.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
One of the things that people noticed about me is
I was a great note taker and forme it was very helpful to stay
engaged and understand theconversation if I forced myself
to take notes, because I had tounderstand it enough to be able
to write something that I wouldremember later.
But what that had an effect onme is that you can't see me in
(27:19):
this audio podcast right now.
But my head was down, I waspinned to the paper and I was
trying very hard.
I was writing okay, no,scribble that out.
No, I need to summarize and putthis.
And okay, move this sectionover here so that when I got
done I could come back, and itwas great for recall.
And so then I later had atransformation where I worked
(27:41):
where I did digital notes and Ivery rarely take handwritten
notes anymore.
It's all digital notes.
But if you can imagine howoff-putting that can be to have
someone sitting there with theirface in the keyboard monitor
and just voraciously typing away, you really feel disconnected.
And that was a way that I wasdoing a disservice to people.
(28:03):
It was for a good cause.
I felt like I was doing goodwhen I was doing one-on-one,
that I could hand these veryhigh-fidelity notes over, but I
wasn't very present.
So at this advent of artificialintelligence also, I've come
across some tools that canautomate that.
So I don't have to feel like,oh, I've got to scribble all
(28:25):
this down, I've got to write allthis down.
I have the freedom to just put100% of my attention on you
right now, Amy, and let the AItake care of taking the notes
and it'll actually give me atranscript.
It'll give me a summary ofmultiple different levels of a
high-level summary and then adetail-level summary.
I don't have to worry that I'mmissing something that's
(28:47):
important.
Maybe that's a clue to somebodyout there who's a note taker
like me.
Make sure that you are beingpresent and you aren't
sacrificing your note takingability and being able to
translate this information atthe cost of not providing a safe
space to someone.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I love that, mark, and I think that that is one of
the great uses of AI issomething like that where you
are able to bring your humanityfull front and present and have
this tool that's doing thisother thing for you and, yes,
that's also valuable.
(29:25):
But AI can never replace thishuman-to-human connection by
being present.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
All right, amy.
So I'm like foamy at the mouthnow really super interested in
vertical facilitation.
Where can I go, where can ourlisteners go, to find out more
about this?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Well, I would recommend that you look at
Evolve Agility.
That's Michael Hammond'swebsite.
He is doing all of the work inthis space right now and I know
that he's running severalcohorts of people that are
learning vertical facilitation,so I would check out Michael
Hammond and he would love totalk about it.
(30:08):
He also has written a book, soI think that there's lots of
opportunities to learn more.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
We'll be sure and put those links in the show notes
to make it easy for people toaccess that.
And what about you, Amy?
If people want to reach out toyou, what's the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Well, you can certainly always find me on
LinkedIn you can't miss me andI'm happy to chat with folks if
they want to learn more aboutthis and hear more about my
experiences in verticalfacilitation and all the other
great agile stuff that I havegoing on.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
So I will just give a personal plug.
If you're not following AmyLane, I would highly suggest
doing that.
You won't regret it.
We'll put a link in the shownotes, because I'm pretty sure
you're not the only Amy Lane onLinkedIn, so we'll make sure and
do that.
Amy, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
Consider you a friend.
Thank you so much for your timeand being on here.
(30:59):
This was very helpful andeducational to me.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Thanks, Mark.
It's always great to talk toyou.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Awesome.
All right, everybody.
That's going to bring an end toanother episode of the Agile
Within.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the Agile
Within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
(31:26):
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
word with your friends andcolleagues Until next time.
This has been your host, markMetz.
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