#122 Support, Don't Solve: Empowering Leaders to Create Authentic Spaces

How can leaders support their teams effectively without falling into the trap of fixing everything themselves?

Leah Marone is a psychotherapist with expertise in treating anxiety and mood disorders. She also works with athletes on performance anxiety issues, demonstrating her ability to understand and manage high-stress situations.

If you can relate, there are a ton of gems in this show, including:

1. What are some of the problems or ways that leaders lead that is the opposite of creating authentic spaces and solving?
2. How can leaders balance the need to control and deliver results with the approach of validating and empowering their employees?
3. What are the steps involved in transitioning from being a solver to a supporter as a leader, and how can these steps be applied in real-world scenarios?
4. How can leaders effectively inquire and motivate their employees while ensuring that they maintain ownership of their tasks?

And hey, did you catch our role-play experiment? That was like a masterclass in what not to do—Leah's advice saved the day by turning a "Ron-ian disaster" into a pathway to peace. 

Meet Leah

Leah Marone, MSW, LCSW, is a seasoned psychotherapist and corporate mental wellness consultant based in Charlotte, NC, with over 20 years of extensive experience. Leah received her Master's degree in clinical social work from the University of Texas at Austin, a top-ranked institution in social work education. She has conducted over 20,000 therapy sessions and contributed articles to reputable publications such as Psychology Today, The Atlantic, and Newsweek, earning recognition for her expertise in mental health.

Leah's personal journey as a former anxiety-ridden Division 1 basketball player fuels her passion for working with high-achieving individuals, often described as type A go-getters. She specializes in addressing internal pressures, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, and performance anxiety.

In her dual role as a mental wellness consultant and board member, Leah collaborates with both companies and nonprofits. Her areas of focus include anxiety and stress management, burnout prevention, boundary setting, mindfulness practices, effective communication, and emotional intelligence. Leah's holistic approach involves a thorough assessment of company culture to tailor her services, meeting organizations where they are and addressing their specific needs.

 Leah's innovative 5-step initiative underscores the significance of mental wellness organization-wide, identifying areas for growth and connection. This initiative aims to prevent high turnover, address burnout, and enhance overall collaboration and productivity.

 Leah has facilitated dozens wellness workshops for educators, leaders, and healthcare providers and has presented her acclaimed "Support, Don’t Solve" framework on prominent stages. Her inspirational keynotes provide practical tools for self-awareness that can be seamlessly integrated into busy schedules. Renowned for her expertise in boundary setting and resilience, Leah is a sought-after speaker for leadership groups. She addresses individuals navigating perpetual burnout, often fueled by relentless inner critics and the challenges of people-pleasing. Her insights offer a transformative guide for cultivating resilience and establishing healthy boundaries in demanding professional environments.

Beyond her professional commitments, Leah enjoys traveling, hiking, exercising, and working on her upcoming book slated for publication early next year. Additionally, she actively contributes as a coach for her daughter's club soccer team, showcasing her dedication to both personal and community well-being.

https://www.leahmarone.com/

 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Today's episode is brought to you by Achieve Unite, a global
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(00:22):
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Achieve Unite is the partner you need for success.
Welcome to the Delighted Customers podcast. I am so

(00:45):
glad you're here. We challenge conventional thinking about
customer experience because I believe that improving experiences isn't
just good for business. It's a powerful way to make a meaningful
difference in people's lives. Each week we feature thought
provoking conversations with industry thought leaders from
a variety of backgrounds offering unique perspectives and

(01:07):
actionable insights. Get ready to sharpen your leadership
and transform your approach to customer experience.
Let's dive in.
Well, today on the Delighted Customers podcast, we are
going to hit a tangential subject
to what we can do to delight customers. And

(01:30):
we have to ensure that our employees are
doing well. We have to make sure those people
serving the customers that we have, whatever they are, patients,
guests, passengers, whatever they are, those
people, that group of people is doing well because we
know that the customer

(01:52):
experience will never exceed the employee experience.
So with that, I want to invite back on the
show Leah Marone. Leah, welcome to
the show. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me
back. Yes. So did that make
sense? What I said about the customer experience will never surpass the

(02:15):
employee experience? You know, I was just going to actually ask you, can you add
a little more to that? Because I love where you're going with that. Just add
a little bit more for us. Yeah. So it's like you're interviewing me at the
outset here. Let's do that. And then I'm
going to ask you to tell the audience a little bit more about your background.
Okay. Okay. So there was a study done, a lot of CX people are

(02:36):
probably familiar with it a while back called the Service
Profit Chain, which was originally an article in the Harvard Business Review which
three Harvard professors ended up writing a whole book on it. Actually two books on
it, the Value Profit Chain, the Service Profit Chain, and essentially
what it said. That chain starts with the strategy the
company has about who it's going to serve and what it's going to do and

(02:58):
what its mission is. The strategy. The
next thing in the chain is the employees, the
people who are going to deliver on that. The third group in the chain are
the customers and the fourth group in the chain are the business
outcomes that they want to achieve. And so what they
did was they did this study and I'm not going to go deep into it

(03:18):
because it's a show we're going to feature you on, but it does kind of
frame out the why of why this is such an important topic,
which I'm going to ask you to expand on for us. But
so they studied. Let's just take a company like State Farm Insurance,
which has locations all over the
U.S. the study was done probably several decades ago, but my

(03:42):
guess is there's not a whole lot of difference other than,
you know, the in office piece of it is maybe a little bit differently because
things are structured a little differently today. But what they found
was those locations that had the best
employee experience ratings
almost across the board exceeded

(04:04):
the performance of those with less than
okay employee ratings. So there was, so there was
better customer metrics and then that ultimately led
to better business outcomes
consistently throughout. Whether you looked at a mid sized city, you know,
Milwaukee and Pittsburgh in the same category, no matter how you

(04:26):
sliced always the
outcomes were always the same in that those locations
that had better employee experiences had better customer outcomes. Does that make sense
to you? Absolutely, Absolutely, yes. So
now with that lengthy setup for today's
show, Leah, could you please share with the

(04:48):
audience a little bit about yourself and kind of
your, a little bit about your background and what you're doing now?
Sure, sure. So I am a
psychotherapist by trade. I'm based in Charlotte, North Carolina
and my clinical practice, I mainly
specialize in treating anxiety disorders along with mood

(05:10):
disorders. I also love working with athletes on performance
anxiety issues. I played Division 1 basketball and I
was kind of a mess when it came to just balancing
my inner critic and all the things. And so I have a sweet spot for
that. And then on the side of kind of what I do
is more consulting. And that entails speaking, that entails

(05:33):
facilitating workshops that entails like just working one on one with leaders
and how to impact culture, integrate mental health,
mental wellness and kind of the employee experience to prevent
turnover, prevent burnout, to prevent just kind of the negative
toxicity, you know, components that sometimes just derail the culture
completely. And so I love the diversity and kind of what

(05:55):
I'm doing in the different levels, the macro level of speaking and
writing and then kind of that micro intimate level of just therapy and
consulting. But really it's all under the umbrella of
helping people generate self awareness, helping to
really advocate and educate and support and
empower leaders in particular how to

(06:16):
integrate not only wellness and mental health in their worlds,
but but also their teams. Yeah. Which
is such important work and is already a gem. I
like to stop and pull out the gems for the audience, at least the
ones I'm hearing. Hopefully if you're listening, you're hearing, you know, these
plus more. But one in particular that you and I

(06:39):
do have in common as you shared, you know, as a former
Division 1, I know you play basketball,
basketball player.
You had a lot of inner critic activity going on and
I had that too. And also just the
empathy that you have for people who are athletes who

(07:01):
also may be suffering for that same kind of thing. A big part
of my mission here with the delighted customers podcast. The work I do at Michigan
State and the masterclass I teach are all about trying to lift
up that CX professional who is
trying to make change in their organization and hitting all
sorts of headwinds. And the stress and

(07:23):
anxiety you go through, people have it no matter what occupation they're
in. But I have a heart for those people and
I try to do whatever I can through people like you.
You're probably the most direct help. I'm teaching
them about things like, like how to gain trust from key stakeholders and how
to build certain models and frameworks but direct help

(07:45):
on the stress and anxiety so people have it no matter what their profession is.
And I so appreciate you having a heart to help
people given, you know, sometimes, you know,
I say God doesn't waste our suffering if we
listen and we do something with it. And I appreciate your empathy
for what you're doing. Thanks. And it's so

(08:08):
interesting because I think just this whole movement and the buzzwords
around which self care and this and that and a lot of people
now are getting to the point sometimes where there is the eye roll because I
think we've heard when we think about burnout, when we think about self care and
all these things that have really been talked about at length in the last several
years, which again is a good thing. But I think where people are

(08:29):
identifying that, where it's not helpful is
that a lot of times we're just talking on the surface level of what are
the coping skills we should be doing. And I have
found that most of us could regurgitate a lot of those ourselves of
just make sure you're, you know, doing this and getting sleep and taking
walks and take a bath and do this. And so a lot of us know

(08:50):
these tangible, concrete things that we should be doing. And what I'm
really interested in is getting to the psychological
components of, yes, we know what we should be doing. And even come Saturday
or Sunday, when we create this amazing plan for ourselves
that starting Monday we're going to start our workout and we're going to omit this
from our diet. We're going to do X, Y and Z. There's another part of

(09:12):
us, a lot of times that surfaces on Monday morning when that alarm goes off
and is motivated by a different thing. Maybe like, ah, we didn't sleep well
and we know if we don't sleep well, we're not going to really be firing
on all cylinders and we're really warm and we don't want to be cranky. And
so we'll save our workout for the next day. And so it's really about
not just knowing what these tactics and coping skills are

(09:32):
essentially, but really understanding the internal
workings of what stands in the way of executing them and what gets in
the way of them being consistent. And a lot of times that is our critic,
that's our internal rescuer, that's our internal pleaser, and a
lot of these different parts that sometimes don't align. And so when we
think about mental health, when we think about leadership, when we think about all these

(09:54):
things, it's really, really the basis is self awareness.
The basis is putting in that work to not just succumb to band
aids and pacifiers and these quick fixes. It's
really about kind of understanding the inner workings and as a leader, what you're
modeling. So
I do want to dig into that a little bit because it

(10:17):
is a trap that we fall into this cycle
that you described that we actually have
to, number one, as you say, be aware, I think is the
first step that we're even falling into it or falling back into
it. And then two, putting in some sort of
stopgap measure to say, I don't want

(10:38):
to do this anymore, I need to take a new path.
I know you're working on a big project to push out
a book and the topic
around which is Support Don't Solve, Empowering leaders
to create authentic spaces. And
you just mentioned leaders modeling. So

(11:02):
first talk about what are some of the
problems or the ways that leaders lead.
That is the opposite of creating authentic
spaces and also
solving, yes, great, great questions.
And I think too, you know, the title and kind of the whole

(11:25):
premise of this is serial Fixer. You know, are you a serial
fixer? Are you someone that is, you know, constantly when you're
hearing something and the role that you find yourself in in
conversations, whether they're professional or personal, does your mind immediately
go to fixing and solving? And these are not just these
concrete interactions of like, where's this? Or what's

(11:46):
this? I'm talking about interactions especially that leaders find
themselves in. Often where there is an opportunity to empower,
there's an opportunity to maintain a role that is
supportive and not in a solving form. Because
what that does and what I've found is that when
we may have the right answers, we may give amazing advice,

(12:09):
but people don't take it if they don't have their own flavor,
if they don't maintain ownership, and if we
don't also acknowledge that we all come from different paths and
different, all these different things and different associations. And so
sometimes when we find ourselves as parents, as leaders, as friends,
as partners, that we're in this role where we are kind of feeding advice,

(12:31):
feeding information. I don't know about you, but sometimes the frustration
that can come with that when people don't take it and people
then mess up or botch it again and it's just like, oh my gosh, I
feel like I'm having the same conversation or I feel like these people, I can't
lead them because they're doing X, Y and Z. When ultimately it's
not about pushing harder, it's about taking a step back and

(12:53):
actually gaining more self awareness and using, utilizing that
EQ to understand that am I taking more
of almost like a coaching mentality where I am being that
supporter and not that solver. And this takes a different
level of patience and a different level of
actually being an effective listener. Which it's fascinating to

(13:15):
me how many people actually subscribe to or think of themselves as, oh, I'm a
fantastic listener. But oftentimes we find that our
brain is so conditioned to relate the information we're hearing
just to us. Like, oh yeah, that happened to me three years ago. Or let
me tell you about a time when I was in that position. And we immediately
relate it to us, which is normal, human. You know, we have these

(13:36):
associations, but we're giving that advice, we're making
these associations or tailoring it back to us
too prematurely when instead if we think about being
a supporter rather than a solver, the first step out of the
gate is validation. And it's
so interesting because when I've done couples therapy and I don't do much of

(13:59):
it because it's exhausting, I'll just be honest with you. But when I
do sometimes take Some couples and work with that. It's
interesting to ask them, when I say the word validation,
what do you think of what do I mean? And nine out of 10
people will often say something along the lines of
agreeing, like, I have to validate that I have to agree. I have to like,

(14:20):
basically say, you're right. And I love to, like,
challenge that and say, you know, really the
validation is just the nonverbal and verbal
communication that you are basically
that you're letting that person know that I am making an effort to
understand the message, the information, the emotion

(14:41):
that you are trying to express. You may not agree with
any of it. I subscribe to something
completely different or I didn't see it at all that way. But if we
want to continue to work collaboratively, if we want to continue
to move in this fork in the road, rather than again, being
this solver, this fixer, let's give advice. And these imbalanced

(15:04):
relationships and sometimes codependent relationships, it's about
first understanding that we have to kick into this mode where we're
listening and we're validating to remove
ourselves from taking false ownership and being that
solver. It's about understanding and
giving our. Giving each other the respect of I am trying to

(15:25):
focus and listen and validate what you are trying to
communicate. I think we miss that often
in a lot of our relationships, personal and professional.
So what you're saying is it's natural for us to say, oh, yeah,
I remember a time when I went through something like that. It's
natural to kind of join in with someone. And it

(15:48):
may even be natural. You know,
we talk about how we're
trained from elementary school to raise your hand and have
the right answer when the teacher, you know, asks the question, so
that the reward is to raise your hand and have the right answer
first. And so you're jumping to solution.

(16:12):
Right. And what you're saying is the antithesis of that is really
to get forward. To get forward in the long term, as you're leading
someone, you need to, whether it's bite your tongue, but
retrain and validate first
what they're saying, even if you don't agree with it. Yeah.
And validation can come in several forms where it could be that hypnot, it could

(16:34):
be that eye contact where you're basically confirming, like, I'm trying to
do my best and put forward effort to understand and listen and stay present.
Right. We can tell when the wheels are turning elsewhere and someone's focused on something
else, are multitasking. Right. It's also, it comes
sometimes in the form of paraphrasing. It comes sometimes in the form of just like,
no, that sounds like this has been on your mind for a while. Or yeah,

(16:56):
no, this is a, this is a big project. Just even setting that tone
of collaboration and keeping the ownership with
that person. I think the best leaders I've worked with are
able to do that. And what that does
is it again, I think it not only diffuses some of
the urgency culture that I think many of us just subscribe to

(17:18):
anyway, that isn't effective and it just is a perfect, you know,
kind of component to I think, burnout and the inability
to recover and reset. But it also again,
creates these, I like to say, and maybe it's too clinical, but these micro
codependencies. When we see in the workforce, we see people that
can, you know, immediately identify, oh well, this person. If I, you

(17:40):
know, have a question, they're actually probably just going to it or they'll talk to
so and so for me, or they'll tell me step by step what I need
to do, or if I come and kind of say how stressed I am, they'll
pick up the pieces for me. And this isn't a vindictive, malicious
kind of move. But we all are stretched for time. And so
sometimes keeping the ownership and challenging and validating

(18:01):
and asking certain questions of like, what do you feel like your next step is?
Or how can I support you on this? Or what, what are your concerns?
Those questions as a leader keeps that ownership
the ability for your team member to gain
confidence, gain repetitions, and to build their own muscle around
things. And I don't think we're seeing that enough. We're seeing people

(18:23):
swoop in, we're seeing people kind of fix and solve.
And I think that right there is
also a big cultural component of people not feeling a
purpose in the work, not feeling passionate with their role
because they're not owning it, they're not improving, they're not getting the reps, they're
not gaining the confidence that make us feel good and included

(18:45):
in whatever we're doing as humans.
That is powerful stuff. So the first step is
validation, validating the other person. Don't jump to the
solution, don't give them the answers. But even
if you may be well intentioned, even if you know the, you
think you know the answer, I know the answer, you know, but you're not

(19:08):
really developing that person's independence or
interdependence. So what is the second
step? Once you've validated Okay, I hear you. Got it.
Sounds like you've really been frustrated with that issue. What's the second step?
Right, it does. It's kind of interwoven. And the second step is that kind of.
That empathy, if it's warranted. Right. And again, we're not talking gushy feely

(19:30):
here. We're not talking about having them many therapy sessions with your
people. But it's again, we talk about the buzzwords
empathetic leader. We talk about inviting, letting people
fail, it's okay. Or invite the risks. All these things which
are wonderful taglines, wonderful phrases, they should be integrated into your
culture. But we don't know how to do it. And this is one way to

(19:52):
do it, where again, you validate, you understand the message, you
create that space for someone to share and process. And then
there is that sometimes that bit of empathy where it is like, it doesn't again
have to be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry you're going through this. But
it can still be just like, no, that's a lot, or this, the deadline is
coming up now. I can see where the stress is there, you know, so it's

(20:13):
kind of aligning and that's sometimes where you can show
and I think pull out the emotion that might be involved in what they're
sharing. Because there always is some, whether it's stress, whether it's a bit of
that, am I going to do this? I am not capable of this. Am I
going to get in trouble? You know, all those things that sometimes are behind the
messages when someone comes to you. And then we do

(20:33):
kind of have. And again, different level of skill. I mean,
I've worked with so many leaders that are so, so great at this. But
that next step after empathy is inquire. And that's when you do
ask some of those questions where again, you may know exactly what
this person should do, but that's when you can kind of give
them a platform to ask questions such as,

(20:56):
you know, what do you feel like your options are at this point? Who
do you need to talk to? What can I help you with? Is there
something tangible like these questions that are stimulating kind of
that growth, that are stimulating the processing, rather than someone coming in
and you just kind of giving them a step by step. Well, this is what
you do and this is how you execute. So it's that inquiring

(21:17):
too, where you can add your, you know, kind of your
flavor of this is how I coach, this is how I lead.
And that's when people, I think really can benefit from
examples like, hey, would it be helpful if I shared something when I was, when
I was in this? Would that be helpful? I think that's when sometimes, you
know, we can share. We can share experiences. But I think asking that

(21:39):
permission sometimes is. Is helpful too, because it keeps
that ownership and it keeps the momentum with that person.
So inquire, and could that include
something like, ed, like, how big do you see this problem? Is
it like, smaller than a bread box? Is it like
an up all night, all month kind of an issue? Yeah.

(22:02):
Yeah. I think that's wonderful. And kind of, you know, sometimes people come in with
a lot of narratives that are pretty negatively tinted or just kind of there's that
defeat. There's, you know, a lot of things. You have people, too, that are just
kind of like, no, everything's great, you know, and kind of masking things. But I
think as a leader, then that is when you can inquire about stuff like
that. That is when you can also pull from a strength, space, perspective and

(22:25):
think about things that they've gotten through already, things that,
you know, when they have been resourceful. And if you're
working with someone that just. It's almost like you're hitting dead ends and they're like,
I don't know what to do, or I'm incredibly stressed or. Or so. And so
is not pulling their weight, or this and that and this. Again, it's circled back
to that validation of like, yeah, it's really hard to collaborate.

(22:46):
But, you know, this is something too, that you're. You're growing with.
Like, this is something too. Like, let's look at what your options might be. It
might be uncomfortable, but what are the next steps? And again, it's.
It's allowing them to get that. Those processing skills that
many of us, even just developmentally and growing up, we didn't
get that. You know, we may have had parents that just weren't present. We may

(23:08):
have had parents that did solve it all for us.
And so sometimes those reps were not acquired
throughout, you know, youth and our early days. We had people that came in and
fixed and solved and coddled, and we need to gain that resilience.
Right. So what. That's great advice. What I've
got is the first step is validation, then

(23:31):
moving to empathy, then inquire. Is there a step
after inquire? Yeah, that. And again, these
aren't all sometimes in the same conversation. Right. It depends
on the. On the topic and what's going on, but that the next step
is Motivate, right? That is when it's not just kind of these
motivating gloss over statements like you got this. I mean I think it's,

(23:53):
it's more so again as I started to say that strength
based perspective it's pulling from. Well, let's look at,
you know, have you felt this before? Have you been in this type of situation
before? You know, have you been anticipating a conversation that's
uncomfortable before? What did that look like? How was that?
It's really helping them collect data, identify their

(24:14):
own patterns, identify options, but with that
motivational kind of empowering twist to it. And
I think, you know, a lot of leaders I've heard when I've
done just different group sessions and Q&As. It's funny because I've
had some team members say I've worked with some leaders where they
come from a good place. But sometimes they will say very empowering

(24:37):
statements such as like ah, don't worry about it, you got it, you always deliver.
And as much as sometimes those are nice, it's also they feel kind
of just glossed over of like alright, move on, figure it out.
Where they're not getting that kind of that
space created that they might need. And I think that's a big
part of it. So it's again there's a lot of room and wiggle

(24:58):
room for, you know, there's these steps but I think to add
who you are and kind of tap in again to being authentic as a
leader. And so it is we have the, you know, the
validate, the empathy, the inquire, motivate and then
that last step is reconnect. And
again this can take a lot of different forms but if you are

(25:20):
leading and working with someone and
you've had some touch points, you've had some
meetings, one to ones I think it's always helpful
to, whether it is in the form of quick email, whether you see them, you're
in the office to just kind of touch point and reconnect. Like how you doing
with that? How'd that go? How are your next steps doing? And

(25:42):
that's helpful. Or it's even at the end of the one to one or when
you're meeting to say hey, let's reconnect on this when we meet next week or
when we meet next month or what would be helpful. I think
that right there too radiates support. That right there
radiates that I'm not coddling you, I'm not doing this, but I
also do care about you and I Care about,

(26:05):
you know, what you're producing, what you're collaborating on, you know,
the steps that you're doing that not only help us from a data and numbers
perspective. Perspective, but also we want to keep you. We want you to be, feel
part of this team and feel, feel supported. And I think that human
component is amazing. And you think about that even
personally, when you've maybe shared something with someone, whether it's a

(26:26):
neighbor or family member, and you maybe get that text the next
few days, like, hey, how you doing? Or I've been thinking about you. How did
that go? That feels great. And not that you have to be incredibly vulnerable and
share everything, but sometimes those touch points. Points and that human
additive of, you know, these aren't just one and done things. I think that
makes a big difference culturally. Okay, beautiful.

(26:47):
So I've got validate,
inquire, empathy,
motivate and then reconnect. Yeah. As the
steps. Would you be willing to coach me?
I'm going to create some fictitious role play so that people

(27:08):
can get an illustration of how the pros do it.
So I'm an employee and I'm going to come to you with an issue
and I'm going to actually, let's first do it. Let's have
some fun. Let's do it the wrong way.
Hey, Leah, I've got this

(27:30):
big issue with Ron. You know, Ron thinks
he's the king of the world and has been getting in my
way. He's in marketing and
we need information from them to do our job
because we're tasked with, you know, deadlines and numbers. We
got to hit deadlines and numbers. And how am I supposed to get what I

(27:53):
need to do my job when he keeps putting up a blockade
against us? So I'm really at the end of
my rope here. I'm frustrated. I don't know what to do.
Ron again. I mean, I've heard about Ron four times in the last three weeks.
I'm just going to have to handle this by myself. You know, who's his direct?
Who's his direct lead? Like, I need to get with them. I'll figure this out.

(28:13):
I mean, this is just. You don't know how many times I've had to deal
with things like this. But I'll figure it out, you know, and in the
meantime, you need to stand your ground. You just need to stand your ground. And
I, I will take, I will throw the hammer where I can. Okay.
I'll let him know I'm not taking any crap. And then you can get with
Sylvia, his. His boss, and we're good to go, right? We're good to

(28:35):
go. All right, thanks. That. Folks, that's not how to. That's how
not to do it. All right, we're going to rerun that now
with the. Using. Using the correct model
and give you folks a chance. So I'm going to come to you again with
the same issue, Haley. You know, just really banging my head
against the wall. With Ron and marketing, we need information. As you know, we need

(28:57):
the data from them to get our job done. And
I just keep getting put off. I keep getting
the hand and it's really frustrating. I'm losing
sleep. I don't know what else to do.
Yeah, I'm. No, I mean, Mark, I can see where that would be frustrating, especially
when you have deadlines to meet and you're trying to work collaboratively and it just

(29:19):
doesn't sound like it's happening. Yeah.
Can you tell me more about just timelines with this or what you've maybe
tried? So, you know, we
have this project that's due at the end of the month. Been
spending the last five or six weeks to get a sense of where they are
with their data because we need it to do what we need to do.

(29:41):
And I keep getting. Well, first I'm not
hearing anything, and then finally gets back and said we're working
on it. And I kind of
just let him know when our deadline was and doesn't seem
to make a difference. Like, I just. I'm not getting anything solid
back. So again, just. It sounds like it's

(30:03):
taken up a lot of space then, and you're stewing on this and carrying a
lot of the weight of it. All right. Huge. I mean, I can't. I'm
so frustrated with it because I don't understand it. Like, this is serving
our organization. It's in alignment with our goals. Obviously, it's
affecting our customers if we don't have this data.
And I'm just. Yeah, I'm really worried about it and

(30:24):
it's affecting my job. Yeah. So obviously, I can tell
you've thought quite a bit about it. You know, I'm curious, Mark, like, what are
some. You've tried some different tactics. What do you feel like at this
stage? I know you're coming to me, and I'm glad we're having this conversation, but
what do you feel like at this stage, other options might be. Or let's even
just look at, like, Ron's. Why there might be some resistance. What are your

(30:45):
thoughts on that. Yeah. So
I know he's got to get some information from the vendor.
So it could be that there's an issue with him getting data from the vendor,
but he knew when we needed this information. So it just really.
It's really frustrating to me that he couldn't work it out with the vendor

(31:05):
by now. I don't know. One time
in the past, I had an issue with accounting, and
I just sat down, I took him to coffee, and I sat down
with them and I explained what was going on, and I found out it was
something totally different. I didn't even think it was. And we
were able to overcome that hurdle. Okay, that was a

(31:28):
great option. Have you thought about maybe trying that
or something similar or maybe, to your point, finding out a bit more information,
which I know takes time and I know that's of the essence, but have you
tried to experiment that a bit with Ron? I haven't tried
that. I'm just worried that he thinks I'm just going to be
hassling him. I'm not. We just need to

(31:50):
get this done. Well, you're absolutely right. We need to get this done. There
is a deadline, and this is your role, and it is, you know,
it's his role as well. And I'm wondering, at this
stage, I think it sounds like you have identified maybe an option
or two. What do you feel like you would need from me if you
tried to execute some of those things and gathered some more information? What would be

(32:12):
helpful, you know, from. For me to help support you?
Well, I guess I could take him to coffee if, you know, if he's willing
to go and just find out if there's anything more that I'm not aware of
and find out what he says.
And I guess I need to gather a little bit more information. When I have
that information, maybe you and I could sit down and talk

(32:35):
about next steps. Yeah, I think so. And I think
just, you know, you have to remember too, that, Mark, you, historically with
this team, you do have a way of communicating to
people and creating that kind of collaborative effort. And it
feels like the efforts that you're making with him now just. They aren't working. So
I like that you're willing to take maybe an extra step, which I know

(32:57):
takes time, but to gather a bit more information, try to connect with him on
a different level and go from there before we kind of start pulling
out and kind of identifying other options. So utilize that strength that you do
have. Yeah. And I'm happy to circle back with you on that. I Think
take some stabs at that and see what you come up with and we'll definitely
revisit it. Okay, let's do that. I

(33:19):
appreciate your willingness to sit down again after I talk to
him, of course. Yeah. So, folks, that's
how a pro does it. And you should try this at
home. It's interesting
because it does take a little bit more
time. You have to build a muscle with it as a leader

(33:42):
and. But you'll see that so many
times. You know, even that first example of where it was like, I'll just handle
it, you know, this is enough. I was showing you my aggravation. I was sharing
with you, like, you know, shit's going on behind the scenes and I
was probably divulging a bit too much, even with my tone on what was happening,
which you're going to take away, which might jolt another type of anxiety within you.

(34:04):
Like, ah, things are not great, like, what's happening? And that's not good
either. So it's keeping that, you know, keeping your
cool, finding out more information and
really that the first example was I absorbed a
lot of your issue. Now it affects all of
us because you're not, maybe you're scared, you know, worried you're not going to make

(34:25):
certain deadlines which then is going to impact me as your leader. But
I sucked that in. I took your emotion, I made
it, you know, really trigger emotion in me. And then it was one
other thing that I had to do on my to do list to figure out
what I mean with Sylvia. I had to figure out this. I had to go
to that, like, there's another thing. And you can see that that was another
interruption that I invited with what I was just doing.

(34:49):
Right? The second example was, yes, it might be
a bit slower paced, but what that's going to do is it's going to give
you reps to build, like some people skills, communication
skills, maybe invite a conversation that's a little uncomfortable and see if
you can manage that. See if Ron's willing to meet you halfway. Maybe, maybe you
and Ron, gosh, just even increase your rapport with each other based

(35:11):
on those efforts and solving that, which increases the
collaboration authentically, which increases and gives that a
chance. Right? And rather than inviting as a leader
this, like, welcoming of tattling, this welcoming of, like, what should I do? Can you,
can you do this? Can you do that? Because I think as leaders, that's exhausting
and that's why people, a lot of people don't want to be leaders. Like, I
just can't handle the people stuff and the drama. And it's like, well,

(35:34):
you're inviting it all in and you're taking ownership where some of that you need
to coach and you need to keep the ownership with your team members and be
more of that supporter rather than that solver. Yeah,
I love that. And it didn't cost you money. It didn't
cost the company money. And in the.
I guess one of the issues for a manager leader is you've got to release

(35:57):
some of the control and trust the process.
Yep, absolutely. And that's. That is a hard
thing to do. Right. Especially, again, if
you are someone, which I know I've dabbled with many
times, where you have a vision, a timeline, you
have things that you want to control and have people execute.

(36:20):
And when they're not delivering and they're not doing it exactly how you do,
sometimes it's really hard to maintain patience and stay the
course. But I promise that if you strengthen
that muscle and you do think about, how can
I keep ownership with these people that I'm
leading, rather than taking false ownership and

(36:41):
almost stock in all of these different things that are
perpetuating this sense of urgency, perpetuating and inviting
interruptions. It's a game changer, not only for your
own, you know, mental health, clarity, all of the things, but you
are also setting boundaries and radiating something that people
are picking up on on your team.

(37:03):
I love to share. It's a little. I mean, it relates well, but it's
a little. Not related exactly to kind of, you know, the
stage that we were just talking about in the example. But something that I share
often is this memory I had of me when I was in grad school.
And I can remember, like, frantically walking down the
hall, going to my professor's office. And I can remember

(37:26):
thinking, oh, my God, I have so many questions. This paper's due probably tomorrow. And
I hadn't started. And so I can remember, like, almost barging
into his office. Probably had the look of, you know, anxiety
written all over my face and urgency. And I'm talking very fast. And I can
remember just saying, hey, I know we have that paper due tomorrow. I have some
questions. I was wondering if you can help me out. And I basically, you know,
was this ball of energy that I wanted to just throw on his desk and

(37:49):
let him untangle for me. And I can remember him
calmly looking up, he's working on something, and
he says, hi, Leah. I can tell what you
have to say is really important, but I'm in the Middle of something right
now, and I can't give you my full attention. So is there a time this
afternoon that we can circle back and, you know, I can hear what you have

(38:11):
to say and answer any questions you might have. And
I did not feel the slightest like, I didn't feel disrespected. I didn't feel
dismissed. And what that did and taught me, and I still
try to implement it today, is what he did was he did
not invite multitasking. He very well could have. He could have said, leah,
oh, hi, Leah. Yeah, still kept working and said, well, you did the last paper,

(38:33):
right? I'm sure you'll be fine. Look at the rubric. Yeah, no, I'll see you
tomorrow. You'll be great. Yeah, here you go. I would have walked out and been
like. And he could have very well done that. We do that all the
time, right. We give those little empowering statements and people send people on their
way. And it didn't do anything. But what he did is I met with
him later that afternoon and that two to three hours that I
had before I met with him, logic seeped

(38:56):
in. I began to be more prepared about what I asked
became. I wasn't just all emotion. I came and I was
more structured. I thought about it, I kept the ownership with it,
and it was way more productive. And I think sometimes as
leaders, too, you know, it's kind of the old school, like, oh, well, I have
the open door policy. And it's like, yeah, how's that working for you? Because what

(39:18):
you're doing is inviting all these interruptions. It's feeding the
ego, thinking that you're all, you're serving this purpose, you're putting out fires left and
right, when in reality you're just breeding codependency. You're
fixing and solving when people are not getting their own repetitions and getting these
experiences and these discomforts to build their own confidence
and stamina. And so I think sometimes as leaders, even

(39:41):
setting those boundaries of validating. It sounds like
you've been giving this a lot of thought. No, I can tell that this is
something that you're thinking about. I want to give you my full attention. Let's meet
in about 20 minutes after I wrap this up, or let's find a time where
that you could ask me some questions and we can go over that,
keeping that ownership. And that's where you build very

(40:01):
purpose driven, very confident team members that
want to stay. Yeah. Someone
once said, sometimes in order to go faster, you need to slow
down. And this Process
may seem, like you said earlier, may take longer in the short
run, but in the long run, you're training up future

(40:23):
leaders who allow your business to scale.
Right. Because someday Mark's going to be gone,
Leah's going to be gone, and there's a new
group that needs to be equipped and prepared and so
on. You're speeding things up because maybe they'll be
able to get along well and solve their own

(40:46):
questions before it needs to go through yet another
step, another more people involved, the bureaucracy,
whatever it may be, and get something solved so things can move
along through the process. Right? Yeah. Very well said.
And I think it's also,
you know, it's okay as a leader. You know, as Brene Brown

(41:08):
says, like clear as kind, it's okay for you if you, you as a leader
pick up on patterns that this team member is consistently
wanting to talk about X or we talk about this all the time or they
find themselves in this world all the time. And it's exhausting me.
It's a great way to step back as a leader and think how can I
change up how I'm responding, the space that I'm

(41:29):
creating. And sometimes it can be highly effective to call out what you're
noticing. Hey, I've noticed in the last three one to ones, these are the
things that you're stuck with. These are the things that I feel like you want
me to fix for you. What's another way that we can do this and I
can help you so that you gain some momentum with this and being real with
those conversations and identifying gaps and patterns to

(41:51):
help people gain self awareness. And that's that
vulnerability piece that we're. Talking about integrating
so many great gems in this episode. We have to land
the plane. I want to ask the same question I ask all my
guests, but before I do, I just, it occurred to me that it would
be important for me to say this, that another benefit of listening to the

(42:14):
Delighted customers podcast is you didn't think about it. You
didn't have to submit a single insurance form to listen to
this show and you got a free session
with so many gems from a
psychotherapist. Just any psychotherapist,
but one of the best I know. And what a

(42:36):
great three words. Support, comma, don't
solve. Wow. Right there is a huge
gem. The question, the question. I know I asked you last
time you were on the show, but I'm going to ask it again, see if
you're at a different place in the river. What advice would you give
to your 20 year old self. Such a

(42:56):
good question. Gosh, there'd be quite a few
things, but the first thing kind of circling back to
that good old inner critic
with everything I've learned, I guess in the 20 plus
years since I've been 20, is I would
really try to I tell myself that inner critic,

(43:19):
you want her to stick around, pay her gratitude
and understand that she's working really hard to protect you from certain things that you
don't want to feel anymore. But she's working
way too hard and she needs break. And
so I would tell myself, rather than trying to shove her
down, hate that part of myself, get rid of that part of myself.

(43:42):
You know what's wrong with me. All that self talk, try
to pay gratitude to that part of you. Try to align with it
and understand it and work with it. And once I started
to do that because all my anxieties I had as an athlete, they
trickled down and reformed as I became a speaker. Right.
Anxiety, all those kind of things tend to do that morph with whatever you're doing.

(44:05):
And I think I would love to have learned to align
and understand that part of me rather than distract and pacify and shove it
down. It served me way better as an athlete and as
a person trying to figure out what the hell I was doing in my twenties.
Great advice, great advice, Leah. If
people wanted to get a hold of you, they needed their

(44:28):
organization, needed help with leadership issues,
employee related issues around what you talk about. What's
the best way? My website, which is just
leahmarone.com I have all my contact
information there. You can follow me on LinkedIn and my
email is leahmarone.com so I'd be

(44:49):
happy to answer questions and support where I can.
Leah, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. It's always so
much fun. I hope you enjoyed this
episode of the Delighted Customers podcast. It would mean so much
if you would take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple,
Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.

(45:12):
Click on the plus sign or follow button and that will ensure that you don't
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forward to seeing you back here next Thursday.