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February 7, 2024 60 mins

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In this episode,  Kori Linn and I discuss Imposter Syndrome. Kori is a life and career coach as well as the host of the Satisfied AF podcast. She helps clients, listeners, and social media followers create more satisfaction & delight in every area of their lives. Imposter syndrome points the finger at individuals and burdens them with being “better” or improving. It burdens the marginalized individual with changing so that they can fit the system without criticizing the system. People socialized as girls and women are literally trained to have imposter syndrome. We're socialized to second guess ourselves, be polite, and not to brag. Unwinding imposter syndrome starts with asking, “What are your perspectives of yourself and what would happen if you treated yourself with confidence?” Can’t wait for you to listen.

Find Kori here:
https://www.korilinn.com
https://www.instagram.com/korilinn
https://www.facebook.com/korilinn.careercoach
Get Kori's Satisfaction Audit here:  https://tinyurl.com/satisfactionaudit   

Find Sara here:
https://sarafisk.coach
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!
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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You are listening to the Ex GoodGirl podcast episode 53.
Corey Lynn.
I am excited to jump in because,uh, Uh, not only do I think
you're an amazing person, I lovethe way your brain works.
I love, love, love the timesthat you have coached me.
You've always helped me to seesomething That wasn't part of

(00:24):
what I thought the problem wasthat always ended up, like,
helping me see it in acompletely different way.
And so this is just such a Treatfor me, and I know for the
people who listen to my podcast,they're gonna love it.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
I am very delighted to be here.
I love all the conversations wehave, and it feels like such a
treat for everyone that, like,they can share in and out

(00:44):
because I think we have some ofthe best conversations.
I agree.
Tell everyone who you are andwhat you do.
Okay.
I am Cori Lyn, the host of thesatisfied AF podcast.
I'm a career and life coach, um,and I coach people on all kinds
of areas of their life fromrelationships, Um, to building

(01:06):
businesses.
My specialty started out ascareer, but what I really found
was the way people are showingup in any of any The way people
are showing up in any area oftheir lives can impact all the
others.
And so I quickly became aneverything coach because, like,
I'd be coaching someone aboutwork and work stress.
And then it would turn out partof work stress was that people

(01:27):
leave chocolates in, like, thekitchen at work, and that was,
like, a stressful interaction.
So then we coached about thechocolates.
And I just really love gettingto support people in that
holistic way in every area oftheir lives.
And what I really help people dois enjoy their lives more and
get more of what they want.
And I love to help peoplespecifically go after their
goals in a way that feels funand sustainable because I see so

(01:48):
many people going after theirgoals In a way that feels like
grueling and, like, crawlingacross a hot desert.
And I just don't think we haveto do it that way.
Um, Um, and I think it's a lotmore fun and, again, sustainable
to make it enjoyable and doable.
Well, We're we're recording thisin January, and so this is the

(02:10):
New Year's resolution time ofthe year.
Uh, do you do New Year'sresolutions?
Tell me what you do.
I I don't really like to begoverned by the calendar.
Um, I think I have my ownrhythms and seasons.
And, like, this year, forinstance, I got COVID over the
holidays, and I got really,really sick.

(02:31):
So I absolutely was not Thinkingabout, like, setting myself up
for success and, like,resolutions.
Like, on January 1, I was justtrying to, like, Breathe through
my nose and get 12 hours ofsleep at night.
And now that I've been healingand feeling better for a little
bit, few weeks, Now I'm startingto get excited about, like, what

(02:51):
do I want 20 24 to be like?
But I think, like, it ebbs andflows of, like, when I'm
interested in setting goals and,like, Deciding where I'm going
and marching forward.
And when I'm like, you knowwhat?
I think I just need some quietreflection.
I need to reevaluate.
I need to see, like, where am IAnd how did I get here before I
think about where I wanna gonext?

(03:13):
I love that.
I I do love the energy of, like,a new year, and I I realized,
you know, that's a lot of, youknow, programming in the way
I've been taught to think aboutit, but it works for me, um, to
kind of Take the time to lookahead.
Like you said, what do I want 2024 to be?
How can I make some intentionaldecisions around that?

(03:34):
The conversation that I Wantedto have with you today is about
imposter syndrome because itcomes up Inevitably, in every
single conversation that I havewith people who I coach, which
are people socialized as womenin this kind of patriarchal,
capitalist, western thing we gotgoing on here.

(03:56):
And you have just said somethings.
I've read some things that youhave written from your own work
and the work of others thatreally have, like, literally
made me stop thinking about itAnd realize that I have been
unwittingly participating inkind of this interplay between

(04:18):
Imposter syndrome and goalsetting.
Because oftentimes, when youhave someone come in who wants
coaching around, You know, goalsetting, career path,
advancement success.
They want to get, quote,unquote, better.
They want to get they wanna makeProgress, and they wanna be
rewarded for that in terms ofcareer, and they're deeply

(04:40):
afraid of being found out foryou know, The the that they're
not as qualified as they thinkthey should be or there's this
ideal that they keep beatingthemselves up with.
And so I let's fix that rightnow.
Okay?
Let's just fix it for womeneverywhere.
People socialize as women.
Okay?
Can we do that?

(05:01):
I mean, we can try.
So, yeah, I I talk about this alot with my clients too.
I probably have at least 1podcast episode on it.
But I think imposter syndrome isso interesting because I think
specifically people withmarginalized identities and
being socialized as a girl orwoman is a marginalized
identity.
Um, it's the only marginalizedidentity where you're actually

(05:23):
not a minority, which I think isreally interesting to think
about.
But people socialized as girlsand women are literally trained,
In my opinion, to have impostersyndrome because we're trained
we're socialized differentlythan people who are socialized
as boys and men.
We're socialized to second guessourselves.
We're socialized to be polite.
We're socialized not to brag.
We're socialized to to be demureand, like, all these things Then

(05:46):
I think it's like a it's like apipeline.
Right?
It's like the socialize as agirl or woman pipeline to, you
know, having imposter syndrome.
And, Like, I know this podcastand your clients are people
socialized as girls and women.
Um, but I think it's worthsaying also the The other
marginalized identities?
So because if you're socializedas a girl or woman and you also

(06:07):
identify like, if you're alsoblack, if you're also
indigenous, if you're also aperson of color, if you're
queer.
Right?
Um, if you if you're animmigrant without money.
Yeah.
If you're an immigrant.
Right?
If you do not belong to thedominant, Like, identity in any
way, and especially if you havethese overlapping marginalized

(06:28):
identities, you can besocialized But kind of multiple
times in this direction, like,you have to be better than
everyone else in order to beable to be in that room because
you don't look like all thepeople in that room.
Um, you have to be beyondreproach.
Right?
And even as I say this, like,I'm getting, like, chills in my
body, which is not somethingthat normally happens when I
talk.
It usually happens when otherpeople talk, but, like, Some of

(06:48):
these are so in our collectiveconsciousness that we've heard
it over and over and over again.
Like, we are not afforded Thesame things as cishet white men.
Right?
And so, of course, a lot of ushave imposter Syndrome.
Of course, we're, like, in ameeting going, who am I to say
this thing?

(07:08):
Of course, we're laying awake atnight wondering, like, if we're
gonna be found out for being aWhat I also think is so
interesting about this is againand again, when I coach people
who have this, I'm like, well,did you lie about your
background and experience?
And they're like, No.
And I'm like, okay.
So it's really interestingthough then that you were honest
about what your experience is.

(07:28):
Like, yes, you have a lawdegree.
Yes.
You worked at anotherorganization for 5 years.
And yet, even though you toldthe truth, you still think
somehow you fooled everyone intothinking you're someone you're
not.
Right.
So, like, when you look at thefacts, it's kind of like, wait a
minute.
That doesn't check out.
But because it's thatsocialization piece.
Right?
It's this.
And socialization is a habit ofthe mind.

(07:51):
Right?
You're in this mind habit wherenow you're marginalizing
yourself from the inside becauseyou're That's what you were
taught to do, and you won't evenrealize it.
Right?
You'll be like, oh, this is justhow normal people think.
And because Half of the world issocialized as girls and women.
It is how normal people think,but, like, that that's not
necessarily useful for you.

(08:12):
Right?
So I think kind of just comingto understand that, like, oh, of
course, I feel this way.
This isn't evidence thatsomething's wrong with me.
It's evidence that somethinghappened to me.
Because to be socialized is tohave something happen to you.
It's to have other people teachyou and shape you.
And sometimes it's like yourparents and teachers, But
sometimes it's also, like, notexactly a person.

(08:34):
It's what movies did you watch?
It's what what TV shows?
It's what books did you read?
And how did those shape yourview of the world and your place
in it and what you're allowed tohave and what you're not allowed
to have?
And that is why I love Cori Lynbecause, I mean, kicked I don't

(08:56):
wanna end it there because Iactually have a lot of things I
wanna go back and and kinda digdeeper into.
But what you that was Just abrilliant, beautiful summary of
of what I'm hoping that I canunderstand on a deeper level and
that People can understand thatwe end up discounting ourselves,
marginalizing ourselves becauseof what has happened to us.

(09:21):
And so we create in some waysthis thing that we think is
happening to us.
We have a we we participate inperpetuating it.
We didn't create it.
Right?
We didn't create the system thathas done this, and I wanna talk
specifically about that.
But what I love is that coachingis all about finding the place
where you have power The power.

(09:43):
The power to make it differentand in looking at the
socialization of our minds andhow we just have been taught to
think that is the place where wehave the power.
Let's back up for just a secondfirst because I want to get a
good working definition forpeople who might be hearing this
term.
They understand it, but they'renot quite they've heard it, but
they don't Maybe quiteunderstand it, marginalized.

(10:05):
Can you give us a good identityor a a definition of what
marginalized means?
Um, so we live in a culture thathas certain identities that are
kind of seen as the default.
Right.
That would be considered thedominant identity.
And if if you're not aware ofthis, listeners, that's okay

(10:26):
because until someone teachesyou about this, You wouldn't
know because that's sort of howthe system is designed.
The system is designed to caterto certain identities, but it
almost Seems invisible until Andit wants to hide that.
Yes.
Right?
And but once you learn to seeit, it's it's everywhere.
Right?
Okay.
So, like, just To go over somefor, like, American culture

(10:49):
because I'm not an expert in allthe cultures in the world.
In American culture, thedominant identity is male.
The female identity is themarginalized identity because
our culture was not designedwith women in mind.
It was designed with men inmind.
And, like, we didn't even havethe right to vote until what?
19 20?
Um, and the right to vote is aninteresting 1 because, like, the

(11:11):
right to vote is you can see,like, who It was originally for.
Who was the culture originallyfor?
It was originally for, like,white male landowners.
Right?
So white is the dominantidentity in American culture.
Um, let's see.
Able-bodied or able minded isthe dominant culture, whereas

(11:31):
disabled is the marginalizedidentity.
Cisgender is the dominantidentity whereas transgender is
the marginalized identity.
And, like, I wanna be clear.
Like, I'm not the 1 saying,like, these are less than.
They're not less than.
But culturally, the way thecountry works, the way the
culture works, it it orientstowards and caters to the

(11:55):
dominant cultures.
In American culture,Christianity is the religion
that is Considered, like, thedominant religion and other
religions or, you know, lack ofreligion like being an atheist
or agnostic, those are, Youknow, the non dominant, the
marginalized groups.
Um, let's see.

(12:16):
Heterosexuality is, uh, thedominant in this culture.
And you can see, like, queerpeople didn't even have the
right to get married untilrecently because they are a
marginalized group who was notafforded the same rights.
Now I think it's also worthsaying that sometimes groups are
afforded the same rights, Andthat doesn't mean that they're
now the dominant group.

(12:37):
That just means they have beenbrought into, Like, some amount
of access to things, butsometimes those groups can come
into and out of access becausethey are not the dominant group
that the culture caters to.
And there's, like, lots of onesthat I haven't talked about.
Um, like, wealth is another way.
And, like, what we're reallytalking about here too is also

(12:57):
privilege.
And I know that's a touchy termfor some people, but all
privilege means is you don'thave to face certain obstacles.
Privilege doesn't mean thingsare necessarily super easy for
you.
It means there are obstaclessomeone else is facing that you
don't have to face because of 1of your identities.
I'm a white woman.
So there are obstacles I've justnever had to face and probably
didn't even know about becauseof my whiteness.

(13:21):
I'm also a woman.
Right?
So there are obstacles I havefaced that, like, a man, but had
not have known about or evenconsidered.
Right?
So we all of us areconstellations of identities,
and usually some of ouridentities may be That dominant
slash privileged identity insome of our identities, maybe

(13:41):
that marginalized identity.
I'm also queer.
Right?
So that's also an identity thatI have.
And I didn't realize I was queerfor a long time, which because
we have this thing, um, calledcompulsive or compulsory
heteronormativity, which isbasically the idea that everyone
is treated straight Until ifthey come to their own
conclusion of, like, wait aminute.
No.
I'm not.
And that socialization is sostrong, um, that even when I had

(14:07):
had sex with women.
I was like, oh, I'm juststraight, but, like, there's
this, like, whole culturalnarrative of, like, you're doing
it for attention or, You know,these kinds of things.
So I was like, oh, I'm obviouslystraight, but, like, I'm
adventurous, which is, like, soembarrassing now because it was,
like, so obvious.
But To claim the queer identityfelt really scary to me and

(14:27):
also, like, maybe I'm notallowed, right, to have that.
Um, you know, So that but that'san example where I transitioned
from believing I belong to thedominant group to realizing I
didn't, and that reallyimpacted, like, Certain areas of
the country.
Like, I remember going to asmall town in Washington, and it

(14:47):
was, like, the first road trip Iwas on with my girlfriend.
Um, and she's masculine ofcenter.
And so she very much does notlook like a straight person
whereas I'm a fem, so I couldpass if I needed to.
And I felt so unsafe, and thathad never happened to me in a
way that had to do a sexualorientation.
Now because I am a woman, I hadgone to other places and also
felt unsafe in a, you know,physical safety way, but never

(15:10):
for that reason.
And so that was reallyinteresting where, like, It's
that privilege is an it'sinvisible.
When you belong to the dominantculture, you don't realize
you're not facing obstaclesbecause you're also facing some
other obstacles because you'restill living life as a human,
Which has a lot of, you know,things that go wrong and
obstacles and stuff.
Right?
So, like, losing the access tothat was really stark for me

(15:31):
because I, like, Felt it happenbecause that also happened in my
thirties when I was reallyaware, and I'd lived this whole
adult life already.
Um, so I'm a bit of a tangent,Um, talker listeners.
So my apologies slash you'rewelcome.
Um, does that answer yourquestion, Sarah?
Are there more things in thereyou wanna dig into?
No.
I I that is a a fantasticanswer.

(15:53):
And I I think what I wanted isfor people to understand that
marginalized beings, it justwasn't built For you.
It wasn't built with you inmind, and so you get to
participate in the system, Butyou're constantly running into
all the ways in which it wasn'tbuilt for you, the ways in which
you have to fight for accessequality and how even once you

(16:18):
get access and equality, thatstill doesn't mean it was built
for you.
And the ways in which there maybe implicit or Explicit pressure
for you to conform to the thingthe way it is, which you may
sense in your body and mind Asimposter syndrome as well, it's
that, like, round peg squarehole.
Like, oh, this was not designedfor me.

(16:40):
Ergo, am I actually allowed tobe here?
Yeah.
And then how do I go ahead.
You.
I was just gonna say, like, I II think often, like, when when
you are able to get into thosespaces, you're also able to
bring, like, really brilliant,interesting, beautiful ideas
because you're thinkingdifferently and you have
different lived experiences.

(17:01):
Like, If everyone in that roomhas the same lived experiences
or very similar livedexperiences, then, like, what
they're able to come up withcreative like, creatively is
gonna be limited.
So I think, like, we need more,like, diversity so that people
have, like, more creativity andmore interesting ideas.
So, like, If you wanna be inthose rooms, I want you to be in
those rooms, and I wanna helpyou get there.

(17:22):
But I also wanna help you have amore pleasurable experience of
being in those rooms and a lessA less tortured 1 because that
constant, um, imposter syndromecan feel like torture.
And and it can keep a lot ofpeople from even venturing into
those rooms.
Right?
Because they discount and andtake themselves out before they

(17:44):
even get there.
So how I wanna say somethingelse about that before I tell
your Please do.
Yes.
Because what I wanna say is and,like, if you don't wanna be in
those rooms, that's Also okay.
Like, what I also wanna say isyou can build your own rooms
because I know sometimes to bein a room that wasn't built for
you can be extremely stressful.
So just because you could addvalue doesn't mean you should or
you have to.

(18:05):
But if you go into that room andyou feel that pressure and it
feels off and it makes youquestion yourself And then,
like, you walk away lessconfident, then I also think
you're less likely to go buildyour own room because your
confidence has been knockeddown.
You have that, like, who thefuck am I to do this?
Oh, are we allowed to say the fword?
Absolutely.
Okay.
Cool.
Like, who who am I?

(18:26):
Right?
Whereas if you go in and you'relike, oh, this wasn't built for
me, they're lost.
Like, then you can maintain moreof your sense of confidence and
your sense of capability and gobuild a different room.
So overcoming imposter syndromeis not about being able to Stay
in a system that you don't likebeing in that doesn't feel good
to you.
It's not about assimilating.
Right?
But it's about understanding whyyou feel uncomfortable there and

(18:48):
then just making the choice foryourself of, like, do I wanna
create comfort for myself there?
Because for some reason, itfeels important for me to be
there.
And, like, I'm very practical.
Right?
So that could be like, I reallywanna keep this health
insurance, or that could belike, I really wanna make a
change from the inside of thisorganization.
Or you could be like, Oh, I'm amake a change, but I'm not doing
it over here because being inthat space is not worth the cost

(19:11):
that I'm bearing.
Right?
So it's like, I want you moreto, like, have the possibility
to do whatever it is you want,um, but understanding why
certain things May bring upinsecurity, imposter syndrome,
and all these, like, reallypainful feelings.
Yeah.
I love the differentiationbetween Having the skills to

(19:33):
make the choice to either stayin a system that was not built
for you and navigate it forreasons that you really like and
that are valuable for you or toleave and create a different
space, belong to a differentsystem because that is what
works better for you.
Mhmm.
How and, actually, here here'shere's what I wanna do.

(19:57):
I read something that you wrote,And I'm just gonna kinda
summarize it probably badly, andI want you to give me your
thoughts and just kinda take itfrom there.
So Sure.
What you wrote was that what youhave noticed or have have in the
work that you do, impostersyndrome Points the finger at

(20:20):
individuals and burdens themwith being better, with
Improving, uh, you can see myfingers are you may be making
air quotes if you can't, uh, ifyou if you can't hear that in my
voice.
It burdens the individual, themarginalized individual, with
changing so that they can fitthe system without criticizing

(20:42):
the system.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we see this a lot, um,because American culture,
Western culture is veryindividual oriented.
And so if you, the individual,are experiencing something, um,
the culture often puts the onuson you to fix Like, oh, you're
feeling imposter syndrome?

(21:03):
You should talk to a therapistor a coach.
Now listen, nothing wrong withtalking to a therapist or a
coach.
I am a coach.
I talked to a therapist andother coaches.
Those are great, but it'sputting the pressure on the
individual when the problem isactually systemic.
Right.
And this is about impostersyndrome, but it's also about
all kinds of other things.
It's about burnout culture.
Right?
It's about, Like, oh, you'resuper stressed at work?

(21:26):
Like, instead of changing thestructures of work and
organization and, like, flexibleThe blah blah blah.
In, like, 30 hour work week,we're just gonna be like, you
should do something about that.
Right?
So I think there is a way inwhich Systems put pressure on
individuals to conform, but theycall it, like, you do some self
care, um, and then come back soyou can work in the system When

(21:48):
a lot of times the system needsto change.
Now listeners, you may be, like,surprised to hear me say that
because I'm a coach who doeswork with people individually.
And The reason for that isbecause, like, life is complex,
and sometimes we're not able tochange the system and we're not
able to leave the system.
And so we are going to go outand do the Thing that's gonna
help us cope, which maybe is toget a coach, maybe it's to get a

(22:10):
therapist, maybe it's to get acoach who's gonna then help us
launch a business so we canleave this job.
Maybe it's like we're gonna geta different job.
But a lot of my clients actuallywhat they do is they learn to
change their they change howthey interact with the system in
a different way that then helpsthem, Like, either be able to
tolerate the system for longeruntil they can make a move that
feels good, or sometimes theycan even change the system or

(22:33):
they can start a business withdifferent systems In it.
But just because we understandthat the system needs to change
doesn't mean it's necessarilygoing to as fast as we want it 2
in the ways we want it to.
But I think it is important.
Also, it's just likeunderstanding, oh, I feel
imposter syndrome because I wasliterally trained to think this
way about myself.
Maybe I'd like to change the waythe culture trains girls and

(22:55):
women, but I also have to dosomething about the
socialization in my head now.
So if you're in a you're in aworkplace Culture where, like,
they're putting the onus on youto fix, like, your stress or
whatever.
You may take actions to addressthat, But I also don't want you
to take responsibility, like,for what's actually not yours to
take responsibility for.
Um, because I see this a wherepeople try to control the things

(23:18):
they can't control and takeresponsibility for those, but
then but then also sometimesdon't wanna take responsibility
for or control the things theycan control.
And I just think it's reallyhelpful if we get clear on where
our power is and use it thereEven if, like, there's other
things that play that that, youknow, maybe need to change as
well, we might not be able tochange them at the exact moment.

(23:41):
Does that make sense?
It does.
And that's exactly kinda what Iwanted to narrow down to.
So within these systems thatwere not created for People
socialize as women.
People socialize, you know, uh,well, as women who who inhabit
other identities.
Even though these systems werenot created for us, here we are.
Mhmm.

(24:02):
And we we have to learn how to II I I I think the goal of
coaching and the goal of yourcoaching in mind is here we are.
How do we learn to have a betterexperience being here where we
can take responsibility for whatwe are actually able to change
and then leave what we are notable to change in ways that we

(24:25):
are happy with.
So where do you start to unwindsomething like imposter
syndrome?
Oh, where do you start tounwind?
I mean, I'm a fan the kind ofcoaching I do is Anytime someone
comes through something, I'mlike, give me an example.
And whatever example they giveme, that's where I'm gonna begin

(24:46):
to unwind it.
And I kind of see it like, um, Iam a sometimes knitter.
So, like, recently, I haven'tbeen knitting, but I I do know
how to knit.
And sometimes your yarn getsreally, really tangled.
And when your yarn gets really,really tangled, you just start
somewhere.
Now if you can find the little 1of the ends of the yarn, that's
a great place to start becausethen you can kind of, like, wind

(25:06):
it into a new ball as you're,like, untangling the knot.
But sometimes you just have amess, and you just start picking
and pulling on the threads.
And you're like Like, thisactually happened the other day
because I was untying my shoes,but it didn't work the way it's
supposed to, and it became a bigknot instead.
And then I didn't I didn't know,like, What was not working?
I was just like, well, it's notworking.
So I just began to pick and pulluntil something happened, and

(25:29):
then I was able to, like, figureout how to untangle it.
And so that's how I start All ofmy coaching.
Right?
A client will come to me andthey'll be like, I feel imposter
syndrome.
I wanna drink less.
I wanna like my significantother again.
I wanna stop yelling at my kids,and then I'll just be like, give
me an example, and then we'lljust begin to pick and pull
apart, like, what's actuallyhappening here.

(25:51):
And what I love about coachingis it's it's often a little bit
different.
Like I, as the coach may mayhave a guess, I'm like, maybe
it's this, and then, like, weuntangle it.
And sometimes I'm like, itabsolutely wasn't that.
Right?
That's so fun and interesting.
Um, like, from the point of viewof, like, being practitioner.
It's fun and interesting.
I think sometimes when it's yoursituation, it's it can be less

(26:11):
fun and interesting.
I will I will admit that.
Sarah has coached me, so she'sseen me be like, this is neither
fun nor interesting.
Um, but but I think impostersyndrome in a lot of ways, like,
how to unwind it is really aboutseeing, like, what are what what
are the perspectives I'm holdingto be true about myself, and,

(26:31):
like, why am I doing that?
And what am I afraid wouldhappen if I was, like, Treated
myself well and was confident.
And, like, what are the triggersthat are, like, kind of, like,
the stressful situations or theinteractions with other people
that are Bringing up theseinsecurities, um, and kind of,
like, getting a pic like, get itpiecing together, like, what's

(26:55):
the picture of what's going onnow, And then getting into,
like, what how do we want it tobe?
And then we just how do webridge that gap?
Because I think that's whatcoaching really is about
whenever you're coachinganything.
It's like, where are we now?
Where do we wanna go?
And then how do we bridge thatgap?
And then usually in the bridgingof the gap, there's a bunch of
obstacles that you don't evenknow about ahead of time, and
then you just 1 by 1 As theyarise, you figure out how to do

(27:17):
it.
And that I think is why I see itlike untangling yarn because I
don't know what I'm gonna bedoing 3 steps from now.
I just have faith that if I keepdoing what I know how to do, we
will get to the other side.
We will get an untangled pieceof yarn.
We will move through.
Does that?
Yes.
It does.
Brilliant.
And I think what I love about itis that I have the same

(27:41):
experience in that I know thebasic landscape of, like,
learning to not people pleaseanymore, learning to leave
perfectionism behind.
But it is always a differentkind of journey with different
obstacles for each person.
1 of the places that I think isessential to start Because I was
so blind to it, you and I havetalked about how we, you know,

(28:02):
kinda grew up on different endsof the religious Spectrum, I
grew up very religious.
You grew up not at all, youknow, religious.
And, um, although you did haveyou know, you've had some
experiences with With religion,it was like, you said it so
simply.
Like, I was literally trained tothink this way.

(28:23):
And when I saw, I was trained todoubt myself constantly, to look
outside of myself forconfirmation that I was doing it
right.
That I I was trained to be, um,to be polite, to be kind, to
acquiesce, To To be humble.
To be humble.

(28:45):
I mean, I I keep bringing thisbook up in every podcast because
I just can't get it out of mybrain.
Um, Elise Lunan, On Our BestBehavior, The 7 Deadly Sins, and
how they were, like, marshaledto control women's behavior,
Like greed and pride and andenvy, I was trained not to have
any of those and Mhmm.

(29:06):
To Constantly just be worryingabout, am I doing it right?
Am I being pleasing enoughkeeping the rules?
And do people like me?
And so seeing that for me wasmind boggling and enraging
because I thought That was justbeing a good person.

(29:26):
That was just being a good wife.
That was just being a goodChristian, a good mom, a good,
you know, whatever.
And so Yeah.
What are your thoughts on that?
So a metaphor that I like to usesometimes is that human beings
are like sponges.
We're just like sweet littlesponges.
And then whatever you put thesponge in, it's just gonna

(29:48):
absorb that.
Right?
So if you are raised In a highdemand religion or even outside
of a high demand religion justwith those same ideas that Sarah
just mentioned, that's just whatyour sponge is gonna absorb.
It's gonna think it's realitybecause it's a sponge and it
doesn't know.
Right?
Like, if you put a sponge inlike, if you Spill olive oil on
your counter and use a sponge towipe it up.

(30:09):
The sponge is just gonna absorbthe olive oil.
It doesn't have an opinion aboutit.
Right?
It's like, okay.
This is what we have.
And if you put the sponge, like,in orange juice, it's just gonna
absorb the orange juice.
Like, it's just gonna absorbwhatever is there.
And I think that's how Bradensare.
Right?
And especially because, like,you think about, like, humans as
compared to other animals, weare so much more dependent As

(30:32):
babies.
Like, a lot of animals are bornand they can, like, walk in,
like, a few hours or a few days.
Humans are born and we're just,like, Not doing a lot for, like,
a while.
Right?
So we rely on our caregivers somuch, And I don't think any of
us actually know who we would beand what we'd be capable of if

(30:55):
we were raised from babyhood incertain different kinds Of
culture.
And especially if like, like,can you imagine if there was no
internet and that, like, younever found out like that there
were other ways of being, If allyou've ever known is something,
it's all you've ever known.
Right?
And so I think we we need tohave so much more grace with
ourselves for how we weresocialized Because, like, that's

(31:19):
just what your sponge had aroundit.
And, of course, it was gonnaabsorb it.
You cannot put a dry Sponge andliquid and have the sponge be
like, I don't think so.
This seems sus.
That's not what sponges do.
They just absorb it.
Right?
And, I mean, I think that's 1 ofthe things that's really
interesting about being human,but I think it's also 1 of the
things really hard about itbecause Most of us do have some

(31:41):
beef with our parentals and withour culture and with other
things about, like, what welearned.
Like, I don't know any humanswho don't have to do some
Unlearning.
But on the, on the other hand,pretty fucking cool that we can.
Just because your spongeabsorbed a bunch of orange juice
doesn't mean you have to beorange juice Forever.
Because coaching is essentiallytaking that sponge and running

(32:02):
it through water and rinsing outwhat it learned and what and
putting some soap on it and thenrinsing it out Some more.
Like, we can't change thejourney your sponge has already
been on, but a sponge is magicaland that it can release when
it's absorbed and absorbsomething else.
And when you see yourself as asponge, it's so much easier not

(32:23):
to, like, be mad at yourself forthe things you absorbed.
Like, That literally you weredesigned to absorb.
Like, that's how babies learn.
Right?
If you put a baby somewhere andpeople are speaking French, that
baby's gonna learn French.
You put a baby somewhere andpeople are doing a high demand
religion.
That baby's gonna learn a highdemand religion.
Right?
That's, like, that's what brainsdo.

(32:43):
Yeah.
Now I do believe there's, like,a little bit of personality, and
some people might be a littlemore rebellious or a little more
this and that.
But that kind of that basicoperating system is just gonna
be dropped in By what you'resurrounded by.
And so, like, being able to,Like, not be so hard on
ourselves if we're like, wow.
Why didn't I know better than tonot to, like, absorb what my

(33:06):
caregiver stopped me?
I'm like, well, You know, but,like, but this is, I think, 1 of
the magical things aboutcoaching is coaching like,
there's the past, and a lot ofus are like, ugh.
But coaching is like, okay.
But here we are now.
What would you like to do?
Right?
Because we can't I don't have atime machine.
I'm very sorry.
We can't go back and change thepast, But what we can do is we

(33:27):
can change the present, and wecan change what you're gonna
have access to in the future.
And we can maybe even changesome of your perspective on the
past, Even though we can'tchange the past itself, like, we
can't undo the, you know, thetumults and the journey that the
sponge has already been on.
But we can give that sponge Anew lease on life.
And we can help it move into I Ilove this metaphor because it's

(33:51):
like a sponge, but I'm like, weare sponges.
We're sponges.
We can Yeah.
You know, like, anything'spossible for you now, basically.
I love that metaphor.
And so I'm thinking about, Youknow, someone who's listening to
this who identifies with theimposter syndrome mindset, like,

(34:11):
who am I to say this?
Um, they're gonna find out thatI am not the most amazing, you
know, ideal whatever whatever.
What what Where do you whatwould you say to them?
Like, just today?
Okay.
So today, If you're like deep inimposter syndrome, you might not

(34:33):
be able to move over into, like,actually, I'm awesome.
That's probably gonna be too bigof a stretch.
Right?
The in order to make changesustainable, we usually need to
make it small.
I call this just making itdoable.
Right?
So we just need to make itsmaller steps.
So if you're like, Wow.
I'm an imposter.
Like, step 1 could just be likelike I was talking about before.
Like, well, did I lie to them?

(34:56):
Did I lie to them about myeducation Or, like, my
background?
Um, because, like, probably youdidn't.
And if you did, like, we'regonna have a different
conversation.
But, also, if you did, like,wow, you're really good at being
an imposter.
Like, maybe celebrate that.
Um, but probably you didn't.
Right?
Probably you have the degree yousaid you have.

(35:16):
Probably you have the you saidyou'd have.
Right?
And so just moving from, like,what I'm gonna call, like, the
terrible story of impostersyndrome, That's terrible.
It's terrible because it makesyou feel bad.
Right?
Into just, like, the neutralityof, like, well, what are
actually the facts?
Right?
Let's fact check this.
Like, if you're like, I'm afraud, it's like, well, is your

(35:37):
CV full of lies?
Probably not.
It's probably actually accurate,But, like, you're kind of have
this idea of, like, why I haveto be perfect to be good.
Right?
That's all that's not true.
You didn't put on your CV, I'mperfect.
You put on your CV, like, I wentto this law school and then
worked at this firm for 4 years.
Right?
So I think just, like,remembering that, like, The bar

(35:59):
is actually not be perfect.
The bar is, like, be a sort ofaverage human who can do some
things.
Now perfectionists hate this.
I'm a recovering perfectionistmyself, But perfectionism and
imposter syndrome go togetherreally tightly because imposter
syndrome is often about, like,our inability to meet our
exceptionally high standards,um, Versus, like, usually, we

(36:20):
get hired to do a job because wecan, like, basically do a thing.
Right?
Like, they don't actually needyou to be perfect.
Right?
So we go from our, you know,terrible story of imposter
syndrome into our neutral story,and I would just hang out there
for a while.
And then after we hang out therefor a while, we get sort of
comfortable with this idea of,like, Yeah.
I'm a lawyer.
I said that and it's true.

(36:42):
Now I'm just gonna do somelawyer things.
Then we can slowly move intobuilding confidence.
But, usually, we're not gonna gofrom insecurity to competence in
1 step.
It it'll it'll feel too far andyou'll boomerang back, and then
you'll actually often feel Moreinsecure and more impostory.
Right?
So we're just gonna kind of edgetowards, like, what's true, And
then we're gonna begin tonotice, like, the ways we're

(37:04):
actually good at our job.
But side by side with that, Iwould be holding that mental,
like, awareness of, like, Oh,and maybe, like, my brain just
wants to keep repeating theterrible story because I've
literally been trained to behumble, and my brain's Such a
perfectionist that it took beinghumble too far all the way
because, like, what is impostersyndrome but humility, it's,

(37:25):
like, gotten a little tooexcited about itself.
Right?
And, like, I do think for thoseof us who, like like, I I do
have perfectionist tendencies.
And so, like, if I learned alesson, like, be humble, my
brain would like, let's beRight.
Let's be so humble.
Right?
Which is like We're gonna be thebest at being humble.
Which is too much.
Right?
Yeah.

(37:45):
Versus, like, Just like a littlebit of that could be okay.
Um, but it's kinda like I alwayswanted to get, like like, get a
hundred and 5 on the test.
Like, That's literally more thana hundred percent.
Like, we don't need extra creditin this, maybe.
I love the distinction that youmake between This, like,

(38:06):
perfectionistic ideal, thisthese exceptionally high
standards that I tend to thinkof, like, yeah, that's the
ideal.
If no mistakes happen, ifeverything goes exactly
perfectly versus This is justwhat this job requires that I
do.
If it's a lawyer job, if it's amom job, if it's a, um, in

(38:28):
teacher job, whatever.
Mhmm.
I find that that is so true thatwe have this exceptionally high
standards, Impossible, you know,benchmarks, this ideal that we
just keep moving toward thatalways just moves away from us
gets higher and higher andhigher.
We're never there.
Like, our brain never tells usactually, you know what?

(38:50):
You did reach the idea.
You did do it perfectly.
And transitioning away justnoticing that thinking and
transitioning away to, like,what does the job that I was
hired to do, if we're talkingabout Career or the job that I
have before me.
What does it require to do meanto do that just means it's done
and I've completed it?

(39:12):
Yeah.
And so what I love to thinkabout with this, and it makes my
brain hurt, it makes all myclients' brains hurt, Um, is
lowering our standards forsuccess while still allowing us
to have really high standardsfor delight in what's possible.
Because people like me, youknow, and my clients were like,

(39:33):
I'll be happy when and then it'sthis, like, laundry list of
things that, like, maybe couldhappen, like, once when all the
stars align and everything comestogether and the weather's
perfect.
Right?
And I'm like, my hair looksgood.
But, like, I don't want to onlybe happy when the stars align
and the weather's perfect and myhair looks good because those
like, that's not that often.

(39:53):
And I just don't think life ismeant For us to feel like shit
most of the time and then behappy like once a year.
That's like, if you wanna do itthat way, I'm not here to stop
you.
You're in charge.
It's your decision, but that'snot what I want for myself.
And so I realized, like, oh, ifmy high standards are making me
feel bad, maybe that's not whatthey're supposed to do.
I actually have a wholeInstagram thing about, like, if

(40:16):
your high standards make youfeel bad and not wanna do your
goal, you're using highstandards wrong.
That's not what they're supposedto do because it's not actually
making your performance better.
It's making you not do anythingand then feel bad about
yourself.
Right.
So that's when I got into, like,what if I could, like, way lower
the standards?
Not not so, like, everything canbe like, but But just so that I

(40:38):
can get myself going, but Iwanna keep the high standards
for, like, delight and what'spossible and what could be
interesting and what could befun.
Like, But, like, I wanna allowkind of that space to be like,
this is, like, where I get to becreative and it's interesting
and, like, oh, wouldn't it becool if my hair did look good
and the weather was nice in thesame?
I mean, that would Fun.
I like that too.
But, like, what if I can lowerit?
Like like, okay.

(40:58):
Like, I answered some emails anddid my coaching calls.
That's success at the at thelower bar of, like, I did it.
Yeah.
Right?
And then getting to experiencethe satisfaction of I did it.
I did it.
Letting it count.
That's how I that's how I talkabout a lot is, like, letting it

(41:19):
count.
It's like we don't let we onlylet the final perfect Product
count instead of all of thesuccess and all the obstacles we
work through and all of thethings that we did on the way,
and it it Provides such alimited experience, like you
said, for pleasure andsatisfaction and feeling really
like, yes.

(41:39):
I did it.
I did the thing.
And so I love that shit.
It's like enjoying your marriageversus enjoying your wedding.
Your wedding Oh.
I've never been married, but,like, I bet it's funny because
I've never I've never had awedding, but I basically have a
marriage because my significantother and I are very, like,
partnered.
We're very together.
Um, she's divorced, and shedidn't wanna get remarried.

(41:59):
And I used to think like, uh,we're gonna have a wedding.
I'll talk you into it.
And then, eventually, I waslike, I don't even like big
parties.
Why would I do that?
Why would I do that?
Because I've been socialized towant a wedding since I was a
baby, like, asterisk.
But to to move back to themetaphor, it's like A wedding is
like 1 day people put so muchpressure on it.
Their hair again, their hair hasto look perfect.
The weather has to be perfect.
Their dress has to be perfect.
Like, everyone has to behaveperfectly.

(42:21):
And it's like so much pressure,but a marriage is every day.
It's you know, Alex And I bothhad COVID over Christmas.
So it's like now we both haveCOVID.
Can that also be part of thefabric of our wonderful life?
Like, I want a wonderful life.
And to me, that does ofteninvolve embracing ups and downs

(42:43):
And learning to, like, enjoymoments that are imperfect
because that's all of them.
Yeah.
That's all of them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I love what we have covered.
I wanted it this this is justkinda how my brain thinks, and
so I'm gonna summarize it thisway.
So When we see that we haveliterally been trained to think

(43:05):
this way Mhmm.
It can offer us Options foropening up that thinking, and I
love how you said transitioningfrom imposter syndrome straight
to, Of course, I belong here.
Yes.
I'm the most confident woman inthe room.
Is it likely?
And so to spend some time firstIn recognizing the socialization

(43:27):
and just seeing that, actually,I didn't lie.
I am you know, whether it's the,Um, a job you've been hired to
do or a job that you're justdoing.
I am qualified to do this.
Interesting that I my brain kindof Tries to make me think that I
am not and hanging out in theneutrality of just recognizing

(43:48):
that there are things that arefactually true that I wrote down
on my resume and have as a partof my CV, and my brain
continually wants to discountthat and not let it count.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So then once we spend some timethere, like, what is, in your
opinion, The the switch intoseeking confidence and, like,

(44:12):
really feeling the confidencethat so many Women don't feel
like they have access to.
Mhmm.
Well, as you were, like, kind ofreviewing the things we Talked
about I've realized, like,another thing, another element
that I'm like, oh, this isactually, I think, really
helpful is realizing that for alot of us, especially, like,
those of us knowledge workers.
We're not hired to know exactlywhat to do.

(44:34):
We're hired to be able to figureit out.
Right?
So if you go in here, like, Ididn't lie about my job
experience, But I have thisassignment, and I don't I don't
I don't know.
Then it's remembering that,like, yeah, you're supposed to
not know Because they didn'tlike, very rarely anymore do we
get hired to do things we ahundred percent know how to do.

(44:54):
Some people do.
Right?
If you're a master electrician,You probably know how to do it.
Honestly, I don't know.
Maybe they don't either.
I'm not a master electrician,obviously.
But, like, even for me forcoaching, it's like I get a new
client, And I don't know whatwe're like, I know the tools I
have, but then I have to, like,get to know them and figure out
how the tools apply to them, andthen how are we gonna, like,

(45:14):
move through the things, and howare we gonna get to where we
wanna go?
And if you're a lawyer, youmight have worked at 1 kind of
firm and you might worksomewhere else, But, like, don't
discount what you do havebecause I think that's what
makes us feel so miserable as wediscount what we do have.
And and a lot of this is alsojust because human brains have
negativity bias.
Like, in addition to, like, theway we're socialized and all
this other stuff, we also havenegativity bias.

(45:35):
So our brain really wants tohyper focus on what's not
working Or what also, like,might go wrong later.
And it can feel actually verybizarre and uncomfortable to,
like, notice what is workingand, like, What we do have.
Your brain's like, yeah.
I don't care about that.
I care about these threats overhere.
So there is also a little bit oftraining Uh, like, the brain is

(45:55):
naturally like Velcro for what'snot working, and it's like
Teflon for what is.
And so 1 of the things I work onwith my clients also is just,
like, Paying attention to andacknowledging what's working and
going well.
Now, again, if that feels toofar for you, you might have to
stop through on neutral.
So that could just be, like,acknowledging what's Neutral.
Like, acknowledging what'sneither good nor bad.

(46:16):
Right?
Like, oh, they gave me thisassignment.
I don't know how to do it.
Okay.
But, like, did I learn how to doassignments at my last job?
I did learn how to doassignments at my last job.
Right?
Yeah.
And so the chances are Chancesare I'm gonna be able to figure
this 1 out too.
Yeah.
And, also, it's like and you'renot in a vacuum.

(46:36):
You actually have resources.
It's interesting.
Like, when we feel imposter So,Jeremy, we often also lock
ourselves down because we'reafraid of being found out.
We think we have to knoweverything and then we don't ask
other people.
Whereas when we feel kind ofmore like I know some stuff and
don't know some stuff, andthat's normal and how everyone
is.
Then we're also like, you knowwhat?
I should probably talk to Gailor Martine.
Right?
I should talk to somebody and,like, how they can help me

(46:58):
figure out the pieces I don'tknow because, of course, I don't
know some pieces I'm supposedto.
Like, in a meeting, Usually, theperson who's willing to say I
don't know is actually, like,the most confident person.
Right?
I I remember really, like,taking that to heart when I
worked in corporate tech Andrealizing, like, if I don't
know, maybe a bunch of otherpeople don't know, and then just

(47:18):
beginning to ask questions thatI was afraid were really
obvious.
But Oftentimes, a lot of otherpeople also don't know.
So there's also an element, Ithink, too of, like, where
imposter syndrome is comparingyour inside experience to What
you observe about others?
But you don't you don't know.
It's possible like, a lot ofother people in the room also
feel uncertain.

(47:40):
Right?
But if you're, like, kind oftrying to hide your own
uncertainty, you might Yes.
Miss out on that chance toconnect with them.
Which just further marginalizesyou.
Right?
The the hiding and thewithdrawing that is so normal
when you feel exposed or overly,like Like, they're gonna find
out.
I hide.
I withdraw.

(48:01):
I protect.
And I think that justcontributes to further
Discounting, counting yourselfout.
Isolating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then Oh.
Inside my brain, what my braintells me is, See, you were
right.
You were right to think that youshouldn't be the 1 speaking up.
You were right to think that youdon't have enough, you know, to

(48:24):
make to figure this out or tomake this happen.
Please tell me I just saw a bigidea in your brain.
Yes.
The I I don't wanna load you alldown with too many big ideas.
But the other big idea is Ithink there's also something
that happens about whether yourbelief in yourself is, Like
rigid or flexible because rigidthings shatter.

(48:45):
Right?
If your belief in yourself andyour, like, confidence is, like,
rigid and it can't fluctuatewith knowing and not knowing,
Then if you come across some notknowing, your your self
confidence may shatter and thenyou don't have any.
Whereas if your confidence inyourself is, like, flexible and
you're like, I'm really good atStuff.
And also, I don't knoweverything.
And, like, then sometimes theybecome good at other things.
And then I ask questions andit's okay if I don't know.

(49:07):
That's flexible.
Um, Um, and it's kind of likebridges are built so that they
can wiggle with the wind, whichif you think about that while
you're driving over wind, thatseems scary because I'm like,
please don't wiggle.
I would not like that to happen,But that's actually what makes
it safe.
Right?
So, like, if you such a bridge.
Yeah.
Wiggle, maybe you can too.
Right.
If bridges get to wobble, maybeyou can too.

(49:28):
And maybe that, like, rigid,like, have it all together.
I got it.
If that's what makes bridgesfall down, Maybe that's not
helpful for you either.
Yeah.
I love the idea of the theflexibility of that that you're
talking about because what Ifind and I'd love to hear your
thoughts on that.

(49:49):
Is that when someone has a veryrigid like, I have Have to know
everything.
I have to and and their theirtrust is in more of, like which
oh, gosh.
It's just such a mind fuckbecause we are programmed as
women that to speak up, we haveto be so well researched.
We have to have all of ourreasons.
We have to, Like, we have topresent these bulletproof

(50:10):
arguments that Mhmm.
That that no 1 can disagreewith.
Otherwise, we didn't reallyknow.
Everything that we, You know,present can be questioned, and
then it's it's about us notbeing good enough to even take
up space and and have anopinion.
So on the 1 hand, we have to seethat programming.
Like, I have been programmedthat unless I really know my

(50:33):
shit, I shouldn't speak up.
But on the other hand, that's sorigid and the flexibility to
believe I can figure this out.
And If I make mistakes along theway to figuring that out, I am
not gonna beat myself up forthat.
That's where I see so like, therisk averseness of women is I

(50:55):
don't know.
I need to figure it out.
I'm gonna start taking somesteps in this direction.
And if I fuck it up, I'm gonnabe really, really mean to myself
about it.
And so it kind of locks them inthis place of indecision,
overthinking, and overwhelm.
Yeah.
Well, I think 1 of the mythsthere is that you can get
anywhere in life without makingmistakes, which I just don't

(51:16):
think is true.
Right.
But if you think you're not onlycan you, but you're supposed to
do it without mistakes and thenyou have 1, then of course,
shame attack.
Yes.
Retrea.
But if you're, like, obviouslygetting anywhere in life
requires like, I just like tomake up stats sometimes.
Don't worry.
I don't pretend that they'rereal.
I like to tell people, like,But, like, so let's just make up

(51:38):
the statistic that to get to anygoal, it's gonna take at least
10 mistakes.
Right?
Then you're like, great.
I had a mistake.
I'm going.
Like right?
It's like Yeah.
Think about, like, a babylearning to walk.
They they usually have somewobbles.
Right?
They fall down.
Or, like, learning to drive acar.
You didn't just get in a car andknow how to drive it.
Like, I remember getting in acar, and it was a stick shift,

(51:59):
and I had 3 pedals.
And I was just like, what theFuck is this?
I just was like, get me back outof the car.
Right?
Like, I thought it would be 2pedals.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, Like, we're not, like, we'renot supposed to learn without
mistakes.
Like mistakes are actuallysupposed to happen.
And, well, it's not like I thinkthey're a super fun time.
It's not like I'm, like,Actually, really enjoy them that

(52:20):
much.
But when I can accept andtolerate them as part of the
path to getting what I wantversus evidence that I might
fuck up, then I'm able to, like,I'm again, it's that
flexibility.
I'm able to, like, allow theminto the experience.
Maybe I have to go in a bathroomand lock the door and cry a
little because, like, I'm a Hugecrier.
I'm a very big feeler.

(52:40):
Right?
And but, like, it's not evidencethat I'm flawed.
It's evidence that I'm doingsomething.
Right.
Growing often requires messingup.
Like, do I wish it wasn't so?
Sure.
I don't conveniently have amagic fairy wand I can wave
though.
So, like, this is what we're allthis is what we're working with.

(53:02):
Right?
And the more that The mistakesmake you feel terrible.
The more you're gonna hide themand not be willing them to have
in public, you're allowed to doit that way, but it's gonna slow
you down significantly.
Now I'm still mindful about it.
There's some mistakes that I'mlike, that seems a little bit
big.
I I'm willing to go slower to,like, maybe have a slightly
smaller mistake that, like,Like, it it's a little bit like

(53:23):
what's your tolerance.
Right?
Like, what's your what's yourrisk tolerance?
What's your mistake tolerance?
But growing your mistaketolerance can grow It can, like,
speed things up for you.
Um, and and and that can be funbecause then you can start to
like, even if you don't like themistakes, you can see them as
Evidence that, like, you'retaking big swings.
Yes.
You're trying and you're movingforward.

(53:45):
Yeah.
I have loved everything that wehave talked about.
And what I hope is is for peoplelistening, you can take 1 or 2
ideas and just put them in yourback pocket, pull them out, look
at them, and think about, like,What if I really just am
programmed to think this way?
Wouldn't what would change if Ireally truly believed my

(54:08):
thoughts about myself are notones I came up with in some
vacuum.
Right?
It's so informed by The way thatwe grew up in this western
capitalistic patriarchal, youknow, like society, what if
that's really true?
And 1 of my favorite questionsthat, you know, you and I have
both worked with and for Cara,um, and Carla Lowenstein why did

(54:34):
I just forget her last name?
Lowenthal.
Lowenthal.
Thank you.
I'm like, what is happening?
Um, and she Ask the question,like, when when a woman is
detailing all the ways in whichher brain tells you tells her
she's wrong, she will say, well,does your brain ever tell you
you're right?
Did your brain ever and thatquestion was like it blew it
wide open for me because, like,isn't that interesting?

(54:56):
My brain Just will tell me allday long that I got it wrong.
It never tells me that I got itright.
And so just taking 1 or 2 littlethings that could blow this open
for you.
That's what I hope.
Corey, Lynn, what do you hopefor people?
I just hope that there'ssomething in here that, like,

(55:20):
helps untangle the knot,whatever the knot is for you.
Like, I just hope there'ssomething that, like, wiggles
things and makes you see thingseven slightly differently, even
1 degree differently whereyou're like, wait a minute.
Maybe I can have, like, abusiness.
Maybe I could have a differentkind of relationship with my
significant other.

(55:41):
Maybe I could parentdifferently.
Like, maybe I could getpromoted.
Maybe I could actually be areally good CEO.
Right?
And just, like, just wigglingthings even just a little bit
because little bit by little bitis how every big thing gets
done.
Also, I have a fun and specialprize for your people.
Um, I have an a workbook.

(56:03):
It's called the satisfied AFAudit.
And it helps you go through yourlife and figure out exactly,
like, what's working and what'snot working in each area.
And People who've done thisbefore have actually told me it
makes them feel so good and somuch like, there's often so much
more satisfaction in their lifethan they thought.
So I think that's Also a greatway to wiggle things forward and

(56:27):
shift out of imposter syndromeinto, like, a delicious,
delighted, Yummy version of yourlife.
And so Sarah's going to includethat for you in the show notes
as well.
So If you thought that theconversation here was
interesting, that's also a wayyou can take the work deeper.
I love it, and I'm so grateful.

(56:49):
People, um, maybe they know, butI know the work that goes into
putting things like thattogether where you distill,
like, Years and years of workthat you've spent working with
clients and taking big conceptsand trying to break them open,
make them accessible, and so I'mso grateful that you would Offer
that.
Is there anything else that youwanted to say about imposter

(57:11):
syndrome or add to thisconversation that you didn't get
a chance to yet?
Well, I think this is somethingwe kind of hinted at, but just I
wanna say really directly, nomatter What liquid your sponge
has been soaking in, no matterwhat life experiences you've
been having, no matter what yourinternal experience is like, no
matter what your, You know,socialization wise, you can

(57:34):
change it.
You have so much power at thismoment and moving forward.
And you are not stuck with theexperiences you've had
heretofore.
They're gonna be part of yourlife, But you can make big and
small changes, and I thinkthat's so fun and exciting.

(57:57):
I love it.
I'm so glad you said that, andit's the perfect place to end
for today.
Thanks, Cori Lynn.
You are so welcome.
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