March 27, 2024 • 56 mins
I’m so grateful for my guest Kimberly Mathis and this week’s fascinating conversation. Kimberly is a queer therapist-turned-general life coach with an ADHD brain who helps people change what feels unchangeable. She teaches her clients how to make their own decisions and navigate difficult relationships - including the one they have with themselves. She works with clients 1:1, loves sharing her work and life with her community on Instagram, and hosts a podcast called, "Decisions Change Everything." Healthy, respectful relationships can come in many forms. Traditional Western society pushes a heteronormative narrative about what makes a “successful” relationship- where longevity is valued more than quality. It IS possible to explore attractions and relationship dynamics in ways that are healthy, respectful, and respect your autonomy and someone else's. Communication is key, along with being vulnerable and tolerating discomfort. Can’t wait for you to listen.
Find Kimberly here:
https://www.kimberlymathis.com
https://www.instagram.com/thekimberlymathis/
https://www.facebook.com/thekimberlymathis
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https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You are listening to the ex goodgirl podcast, episode 60,
Kimberly Mathis, you have beenon my mind for quite some time.
And this podcast episode hasbeen something that I've just
loved kind of working on behindthe scenes with you.
And I'm so glad we get to havethis conversation.
Yes.
I think it'll be an interestingconversation, probably a little
(00:23):
unusual.
Uh, interesting and unusual.
I think that's what people need,right?
Tell everyone who you are andwhat you do.
Sure.
I am Kimberly Mathis.
I am a former licensed marriageand family therapist who
transitioned into coaching aboutthree and a half years ago.
And I'm a general life coach.
(00:44):
I coach mostly women, but alsosome men on anything and
everything.
And I like to jokingly say I'ma.
Professional mind manager.
Um, but I really just helppeople change things that feel
very unchangeable.
Uh, that is so good.
I think every one of us canidentify with something that
(01:04):
just feels like, Nope, that'sjust the way it is, that
relationship, that situation,something it's just going to,
it's that's the way it is.
And that's how it's always goingto be.
Yeah.
It's my favorite thing.
Amazing.
Well, one of those things thatto a lot of people just feels
unchangeable.
Yeah.
Is our idea of relationships andwhere you and I have been having
(01:27):
some, uh, really greatdiscussions is non traditional
relationships.
And I don't, I'm just admittingup front.
I don't know a lot about that.
I have worked with some clientsin some non traditional
relationships, but, uh, haven'treally explored that world
(01:48):
beyond, you know, kind ofhelping a few clients.
What should someone who is newto non traditional
relationships, I've also heardit called relationship anarchy.
What are some things that theyshould know?
Oh goodness.
Well, I think a really importantthing to know is that you're
(02:09):
probably going to feel a littlebit alone, a little bit like an
outsider.
And so it's really important tofind communities or
professionals or other resourcesthat just validate that like you
are not the only person in thissituation or having these
questions or thinking thesethings because A lot of what we
(02:33):
will be discussing and a lot ofpeople end up kind of looking
into are things that are outsidesocietal norms, cultural norms,
things that might be a littlemore taboo.
And it's hard to kind of findyour footing when it's something
new and you have this additionallayer of like, that's not the
(02:54):
way you're supposed to be doingit.
Okay, so you're speakingdirectly to somebody who is
maybe curious about this ortrying to bring some
nontraditional practices into atraditional relationship.
They might feel alone.
They might feel like I'm doingsomething I'm not supposed to be
doing because of all thisprogramming that we have.
Well, let's just name theprogramming because I feel like
(03:16):
that's a really helpful.
Place to start.
So obviously from a, like afeminist patriarchy lens, which
is what I use a lot in coaching.
Women are taught that you aresupposed to be chosen, right?
That you, you kind of prettyyourself up and you make
yourself choosable and that yourvalue is in being chosen.
(03:38):
It's in having a long termromantic partner.
Um, we have a heteronormative.
Yes.
There's also something calledthe relationship escalator.
Oh, tell me that.
What is it?
Kinds of heteronormativity.
It's basically that there is aprescribed way, like a step up
(04:01):
in these different phases ofrelationships.
To make a relationshipsuccessful.
So if a relationship is validand it is successful, it has
gone up this escalator.
So like it's dating, then datingexclusively, then getting
engaged, then getting married,then moving in together and
sharing all the finances, havingchildren, staying together until
(04:23):
you both die.
This is basically what it is.
Like that is the.
If a relationship is a goodrelationship, right?
It will move forward in a sense,move up those different steps.
And it's so interesting becauseat some point I've noticed this.
We are no longer concerned withthe quality of that
(04:46):
relationship.
We're just concerned with thelongevity of it.
And that's what we celebrate.
Like I'm celebrating 25 years ofmarriage this year.
And I feel, um, grateful that myhusband and I have had kind of
twin paths of changing and, and,um, becoming different people
together.
(05:06):
Um, but it's so interesting.
I know people who've beenmarried for 25 years who don't
like each other anymore as much.
And so, but, but they're beingcongratulated on.
Oh, my gosh, you guys have beentogether 25 years.
That's amazing.
And we're much less concernedwith.
The quality.
So is that where some of thesenon traditional practices kind
(05:30):
of come in in a helpful way?
Yeah, I think in a way they, thereason they came about is
because people are just talkingabout and naming like very
normal human experiences when itcomes to having feelings for
someone or more than one personhaving attraction, um, valuing
(05:51):
different types ofrelationships.
Like it's just discussing.
Very normal experiences thathave been kind of for whatever
reason, right.
Lumped into the, like, this isbad.
This is not as healthy.
This is not the way it'ssupposed to go.
And yet people are still likeexperiencing that.
And so it gives, I think it justarticulates like, yes, this is
(06:16):
normal.
Yes.
Here's what you're feeling.
And if you want to navigatethis, if you don't just want to
shut it all down, like maybehere's some ways to do that that
are healthy.
And respectful and respect yourautonomy and someone else's.
Yeah.
So I think they've just come outof discussion.
(06:38):
It's so interesting.
Cause that's also part of theprogramming.
Um, really quickly, I justwanted to give a definition of
heteronormative for if that, ifthat's new to you, it's just,
it's just the idea that aheterosexual relationship is
what everybody has.
It's what is normal is what isit's what is expected.
So, but I want to throw outanother term.
(06:59):
Please.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Impulsive heterosexuality.
Tell me what that means.
Referred to as comphet.
Um, I found this perhaps on alate blooming lesbians, Reddit
thread way in the day.
And it's a big, huge list of howfrom the get go, we are kind of
(07:21):
programmed to just think ofourselves as being straight.
Like when you think abouttoddlers on the playground, you
know, and it's like, Oh, it'sher little boyfriend or his
little girlfriend, totally onshirts and all of that stuff.
It's a very interesting list ofthings.
Oh my gosh.
I saw a boy, this was a targetyesterday and he was, he was
(07:44):
probably two and he was wearinga t shirt that said lady killer.
Yes.
Yeah.
So just, yeah.
So, so not only isheterosexuality considered to be
what is normal, but you'resaying and naming there's a part
of it that is compulsive in thatthat's just what we actually
push onto people.
(08:06):
This is the way you are supposedto.
Yes.
Babies and children arestraight.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
People.
And now.
Yeah.
And.
Yes.
So part of the, another part ofthe programming that I just
wanted to name that came up whenyou were talking about how some
of these non traditionalpractices come into being, we,
(08:29):
we are taught that I'm only eversupposed to be attracted to my
husband.
I'm only ever supposed to thinkthat he is the, you know, the
only handsome man walking theplanet.
And he's only supposed to havethose same thoughts about me as
well.
And We know from just humanexperience that, that that's not
how attraction works.
(08:50):
Right.
And, and if you have the valueor if you have the, the, um,
agreed on, you know,Relationship component of we are
only going to act on attractionfor each other.
Then that means you'remonogamous, but there are people
who either don't have that valueor don't think that the practice
(09:12):
of only fostering attraction toone person is what is best for
them.
So tell me.
Tell me what kinds and I knowyou're not going to be able to
name like every single iterationof every single non traditional
relationship, but give me anidea of like, what is out there
that people are trying.
Um, so relationship anarchy isconsidered one, um, one form of
(09:37):
a non traditional relationshipand it's kind of, uh, bringing
anarchist principles.
Like we reject all the.
Rules into intimaterelationships, um, that would be
one there's an, and that caninclude.
Relationships in which there aremultiple partners and it can be
monogamous relationships,although I think that's probably
(09:59):
less common for people who, um,kind of ascribe to relationship
anarchy.
Um, then there's polyamory,which there's all sorts of
different variations ofpolyamory.
There's solo polyamory.
There's kitchen table,polyamory.
There's just regular, I guess,polyamory.
(10:19):
Um, there's ethical nonmonogamy.
I think that's probably the mostcommon.
I'm sure there's probably someoutliers of other things out
there, but yeah, that's what Iremember.
Um, I mean, E and M kind ofcoming on the scene of my
(10:39):
consciousness.
Like, I don't know if it wasduring the pandemics, I just
read like article after articlebecause I was just so fascinated
by, um, How does someone do thisin a way that doesn't?
Like totally blow up their lifeand, and if they want to keep a
relationship and yet they arefeeling, um, decided, like, how,
(11:03):
how would someone know if nontraditional relationships were
something that they or shouldexplore?
What might some signs be intheir relationship?
Um, I don't know.
So I think that some people lookat this as like, it's almost
(11:27):
like the queer debate aboutwhether you are born this way or
whether you are, it's a choicethat you make, you know, not
settled that yet.
No, we certainly have, my God.
Yeah, I have a whole podcastepisode on this, by the way, is
it like a choice?
Um, and I do think it's probablyboth for people who are thinking
(11:51):
about or in non-traditionalrelationships.
I think some people areprobably.
It's a combination of nature andnurture, right?
And just to be clear, we're nottalking about queer people
anymore having both.
We're talking about peoplechoosing these non traditional
relationships.
Yeah.
People who are wired in a way,like they have had.
(12:12):
Secure attachments.
They have not had relationshiptraumas.
You know, they have had a kindof upbringing the way that they
think about the world.
It's all these factors that makeit easier for them to step into
something that is outside thenorm.
I think there are other peoplewho might be interested in it
(12:35):
because.
Of maybe their currentrelationship, like maybe they're
having difficulties, but theydon't want to split up.
So they're like, how can we staytogether, you know, and both of
us get our needs met and both ofus be happy.
And so they might start learningabout these other things.
And it might also take them morework to kind of.
(12:57):
Move into that and it's probablygoing to bring up a lot of stuff
for them.
Like, I think there's people allover the spectrum when it comes
to this.
I think when you ask, like, whatare the signs?
I don't know that there have tobe signs.
I think it's just like, if youwant to explore some other
(13:17):
options for whatever reason, Youhave the right to do that.
I think that's such a, a freeingtake on it.
I just remember, so I grew upMormon and in Mormon land, you
don't get a divorce unlesssomething illegal or immoral has
(13:39):
happened, like an affair orsomething.
And I remember, um, coming, justcoming into coaching, like by
listening to Podcast, you know,uh, and one of the, I, we, we
were both deeply unhappy attimes in our marriage, but felt
just kind of stuck in it becauseit's like, you know, nobody's
(14:00):
doing anything illegal orimmoral.
And those are the only exitramps out of this.
And so, but being given thepiece of.
Advice.
You know what?
You can only really choose yourmarriage if you have the option
to not choose it.
And going through the exerciseof like, do I want to, uh, do I
(14:21):
want a divorce?
Like what are all the reasonswhy I might, and what are all
the valid reasons?
What are all the, you know,valid was just my own definition
of valid.
But then going through thatreally as a real actual choice.
Was so powerful for me becauseit actually made me choose to
stay married in a way that hasworked out Incredibly like and I
(14:44):
didn't realize unless You havethe choice to not choose it.
Is it really a choice?
And so even for someone, I wouldsay, who is curious or or seeing
some places where nontraditional practices might be
helpful that just because you'regoing to research them and learn
about them doesn't mean.
(15:04):
You're going to take that road.
It doesn't mean anything aboutyou.
Sometimes it just reaffirms orgives you new insight into
choosing a traditionalrelationship.
So that's kind of how it, youknow, I, I wasn't necessarily, I
wasn't looking intonontraditional practices, but
even divorce.
Was a very in my mind at thattime, a non traditional, you
(15:26):
know, way of just, again, beingin that programming of like, you
just keep going.
It doesn't matter how good itis.
It just matters how long it is.
So, um, how have you ever hadpeople.
And in your coaching practice,like explore nontraditional
relationships and then have thatjust reaffirm their commitment
(15:49):
to a more traditional lookingrelationship.
Um, I have had some people cometo me that were already in, um,
like they, they didn't seek meout to help them kind of begin
this process.
They were already.
In some sort of relationshipthat was non traditional, um,
(16:10):
non monogamous and I think, Imean, I'll just be completely
honest.
I think most of the, when Ithink back on it, most of the
people who were in thoserelationships, they ended up
splitting up from theirpartners.
Yeah.
Um, I can't think of anyactually off the top of my head
(16:32):
that remain together, um,because I will say, I think
there's so much pressure to staymarried societally that
sometimes people agree torelationship agreements, new
relationship agreements, such aslike ethical non monogamy.
(16:54):
They are scared of being ontheir own.
They don't want to get adivorce.
Right.
And so they'll agree to do someof these other things that maybe
they're really not.
Yeah.
Okay.
With or totally want themselves.
And it's kind of like a lastditch effort to like to hold on
to the person.
Yeah.
In some kind of new format.
(17:16):
Well, where I really thought ourdiscussion could be valuable,
um, is in talking about thetools.
That somebody would need tostart exploring non traditional
relationships with the, the,also just the, the eye on the
fact that these tools will makeany relationship better, whether
(17:37):
it's a traditional or nontraditional.
So if you, if you could have,you know, started with either
one of the couples that you'rethinking of in the very
beginning, what would you havetold them about the tools or
skills that they would need?
I think the very first thing Iwould want to spend some time
on, and it's probably severalsessions is getting really clear
(18:00):
on their definitions of thingsand the kind of agreements they
want to set up.
As they kind of move into, youknow, a new structure or new,
um, what's the word agreementlike agreements is the word that
(18:22):
comes to mind, but it's almostlike, um, things that they're
giving each other permission todo.
Yeah.
I get to talk about them, howthey want to check in with each
other, what they tell eachother.
Yeah.
Is that is that kind of whatrelationship agreement is?
That's what I was going to askyou for.
Just give me a definition of arelationship agreement.
Yeah.
A relationship agreement isalmost like a contractual, like
(18:44):
if we were going to write out acontract of how we both operate
in this relationship, what'simportant, what we have both
like we understand.
To be a, um, it might be aboundary, a non negotiable, a
protocol for doing something.
Like we have both said that weunderstand it and we affirm we
(19:05):
each are like choosing agreeingto do it this way.
I love that.
It's just something we don'tever do.
And even in a traditionalrelationship, like starting out
with like, what do you think ourroles should be in our
relationship?
I can, I mean, because of my,you know, religious background,
(19:27):
there was a lot of just,Assumptions made about
traditional gender roles.
And I think if I could have hadthe chance to sit down and even
just talk about them, at leastat least it would have given me
the opportunity to consider itand either agree on purpose or
say, you know what?
I don't know that.
I want to be always the personwho's doing that.
So why is it so important tostart with definitions?
(19:51):
Oh my gosh, because if we justsay cheating, right, no
cheating, that can mean so manydifferent things to different
people can be sex.
It can be kissing.
It can be flirting with someone.
It can be exchanging texts.
It could be emotional intimacy.
So I think like the first thingyou have to do is make sure that
(20:14):
you are on the same page.
When it comes to like, okay, sono cheating on each other or no
lying about blah, blah, blah, orjust whatever it may be, you
know, or how much time we wantto spend together.
Like spending, someone couldsay, we want to spend quality
time.
Okay.
Well, what does that mean toyou?
(20:34):
What is quality time?
Right.
Is it being engaged with eachother and like taking time away
from the house and kids for us,someone else?
It could be, you're just sittingbeside me and we're not talking
while we watch a show on TV.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
Examine what all that stuffmeans.
To each person.
So good.
Good starting place.
(20:56):
So good.
And so important, even intraditional relationships, like
how would we know if we werespending quality time together?
Because even like what feelslike quality time to me might be
different than quality time toyou.
And so I love to ask that followup questions.
Like how would we know if thiswas happening?
And I think relationshipagreements are not one and done,
(21:16):
like they are ongoing.
It's a conversation that youhave over and over again,
especially if you're in arelationship with someone for a
long time, because thosedefinitions may change for
people.
Totally.
So we have to revisit them.
Do you recommend, or would yourecommend like a, a revisiting
(21:37):
format where like once a month,every six months?
Yeah.
I would say, you know, when youare maybe doing something
totally new, like ethical nonmonogamy, if that was something
you and a partner were going to,you know, explore, then probably
want to have those conversationsmore often than if you are a
(21:59):
couple who's been married 25years, right.
And things are.
Mostly the same.
Your lives are mostly the same.
Then you might do it like once ayear.
You might have a bigrelationship check in.
So is that what you mean?
I was just going to say ifthings are, there's a lot
changing.
I would probably do it moreoften initially.
So is that what you mean?
(22:20):
I've heard you talk about likerelationship business meetings.
Is that, is that what you meanby that?
Well, we think about, we justthink about businesses
differently than relationshipsand how important it is to have
a business plan and like, knowwhat's going on in your
business.
(22:40):
For example, like knowing the,all the numbers, the finances
and like checking in about yourgoals and where you are, because
we all think businesses shouldbe successful, right?
Like it's supporting your lifefor a lot of people, it's their
income.
And we don't think aboutrelationships the same way.
(23:00):
You know, we get into them andit's like, yes, they're
important and they're supportingour life.
And we're not having anyrelationship meetings.
It's like we get married andthere we are, you know, just
expect it to just go.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yep.
Or we have arguments.
We don't have preemptivediscussions, you know, and sit
(23:21):
downs and check ins.
That's true.
And so the, the time when you'rediscussing.
What is happening in therelationship is when something
is going wrong.
Yes.
When, when emotions are high,when you're mad, because, you
know, there's been somethingunsatisfactory that's happening.
(23:42):
And so, yeah, there's kind ofthis expectation, right?
That like, if they really loveyou.
Right.
It's that whole mind readingthing.
Like they should just know theyshould get it.
Right.
Or there's an assumption that ifcheating means this to me,
right.
Then it means the same to them.
(24:03):
Like the way that we definethings and think about things is
how our partner do it.
And we never question it.
For sure.
The other thing that I, where Ican see this kind of like
business structure being reallyhelpful is that as you As you
are older and you have multiplerelationships, all those
(24:24):
relationships have informed whatyou think a relationship should
be like and how it should work.
If you divorce, like, I thinkabout my husband and I, you
know, we got married, I was 25,he was 26 and We had had
previous relationships, but wekind of just created, like, if
we're going to use the businessmetaphor, our own little
business together, right?
(24:44):
And then we had kids and wejust, we were, we were partners
in it from the very beginning.
But if you, let's just say youdivorce.
Yeah.
It's like, I, it's almost likemy, my next relationship with
I'm 50, another, you know,person, my age, it's almost more
like a merger because he hasthis.
(25:07):
Yeah.
Fully formed business backgroundof different relationships and,
and I can see it being verysimilar with, you know, non
traditional relationships.
You're not like starting fromscratch.
Yeah.
With, with anybody anymorebecause you've just had so many
years of relationshipexperience.
Yeah.
I was gonna bring this up.
(25:28):
Like it's come, it's popped intomy mind several times.
There is something called therelationships smorgasbord.
It's awful to try to, um, spell,but it is a relationship
anarchy.
It came out of relationshipanarchy, but it's the idea that
all these things that we justkind of assume are included in a
(25:51):
romantic.
Intimate relationship thatthey're actually more like
things on a platter or like abuffet and you don't have to put
every single thing on your plateshoes, what you want.
And so I think that this ishelpful when you're starting to
date someone, because it's like,what do I want?
(26:13):
If we're going to move forward,if we both want a serious
relationship, right, then whatdo we want that relationship to
include?
And same thing, like if you getdivorced, right?
Like you might not need the samethings.
You might not want the samethings on your plate.
Totally when you were 25.
So it includes things like, um,of course, like sexual intimacy,
(26:36):
uh, physical affection finances.
Are we sharing our money?
Are we combining money?
It can include caretaking ofchildren or of pets.
Um, it can, uh, include likesomeone being your life partner,
but not necessarily a domesticPartner.
(26:58):
That's so interesting.
Yeah.
All together.
Like, do we want to travel?
Do we want to share businessestogether?
Like, do we want to get involvedin each other's business?
Um, emotional intimacy, justlike all the things you're
reminding me of an article thatI read, and this was several
years ago now about women whoare in like maybe, uh, late
(27:21):
sixties, early seventies, midseventies, whose first partner
dies.
They want partnership, but theydo not want to get married.
They do not want to move intogether again.
They do not want to clean house,cook, do any kind of caretaking.
And so I didn't realize that'slike, Relationship anarchy,
(27:43):
because what they're essentiallysaying is while you and I are
both healthy, we're going to gettogether.
We're going to maybe haveintimacy, be, you know, sexual
intimacy, be part of it.
Maybe not.
Uh, we're going to travel, but Ido not clean your house.
I do not cook your meals.
I do not take any kind ofresponsibility for your
healthcare because for women,that type of free labor, they're
(28:03):
just over it.
And they're not going to do thatfor anybody else.
Interesting.
Yeah.
What they want theirrelationship to include instead
of it has to look the way italways has or the way it does
for most people.
Yeah, yeah, that's sointeresting.
So if someone can get some gooddefinitions and create a
(28:30):
relationship agreement, and thensome kind of.
Uh, structure for revisitingthat relationship agreement and
look at it more like, like someof the ways that we tend to look
at healthy, successfulbusinesses, what else would they
need to kind of look at afterthat?
I mean, I definitely thinkaccess to their own individual
(28:52):
support, like with a coach or atherapist, it's going to be
really helpful because thingswill come up, things are going
to get triggered.
And having a place that's notthe person you're trying to do
it with, having a place toprocess all of that and clarify
for yourself, like what youreally want and what matters to
(29:13):
you and you know, what is okayand what is not okay, what you
want to communicate.
It's really, really helpful.
What are some of the things thatsomeone could expect to come up
like those things you're talkingabout?
For one thing, jealousy is a bigone and it's not a matter of not
(29:34):
being jealous.
Because it's a normal humanthing, right?
And especially with all of theprogramming that we have about
relationships and what it meansif someone is attracted to
someone else, right?
Then they're not attracted toyou or they are attracted more
to that person than you.
Like so much of it has to dowith rejection and it meaning
(29:57):
something about our own selfworth.
It's like just knowing thatjealousy is going to come up and
it is normal.
I think that's important, butit's how you handle the
jealousy.
I think that matters.
Not it being there that it beingthere is not a problem.
So being there should beexpected.
(30:17):
It's not a sign that somethinghas gone wrong or it's not
working or you're not doing itcorrectly.
Yes.
Okay.
Here's where I see the peoplepleasing.
I mean, coming in is in theskills that are needed to
communicate.
I'm feeling jealous.
I'm feeling left out.
(30:37):
I'm feeling like I don't get thesame amount of time.
Women have so much programmingaround not being needy, not, um,
but waiting to be chosen, butyet not being needy, um, not
taking up too much space, notwhining, not complaining, you
know, really.
And then, and then gel that,that jealousy means they're bad
(31:01):
or wrong.
I think this is so, it's such anuanced, like complicated
discussion.
Um, what was coming to my mindas you were talking about that
is.
Um, I think it's also very easyif you are a people pleaser,
especially women, just like,like you were saying with like
(31:24):
the, I don't want to be tooneedy, you know, I don't want to
need too much.
I don't want to complain toomuch.
Blah, blah, blah.
It's really easy to try to talkyourself out of what you are
feeling or wanting or needingbecause you're like, well, I can
see the logic in these.
Arguments for ethical nonmonogamy or relationship anarchy
(31:46):
or polyamory, whatever it maybe.
And I know there are people whowork past it and move past it
and all of that.
And it's okay if you don't wantto do all that work.
It's okay if you're just like.
Um, I've tried, I really wish Icould get myself there and I
cannot, this is not for me.
(32:07):
I think that's the scary partbecause if you have a tendency
to people, please, you'reprobably also not that
comfortable being alone andbeing by yourself or feeling
rejected, right?
So to say this isn't working forme really puts on the table, the
possibility that your partner,whoever you're saying that to is
(32:31):
like, well, I'm sorry.
I like.
You know, maybe we split up,this is what I want and then you
have to decide, like maybe Idon't want to be in this
relationship.
It's just very, very scary.
Yeah.
Here's where I like to remindwomen in particular, human
(32:52):
socialized women, that we oftenfeel like we are kind of stuck
in a relationship or heldhostage, even when our partner
is making choices that we don'twant.
And just to keep in mind, youalways have the ultimate choice
of whether or not to stay withme.
In, in any relationship that youare in, it might be so painful
(33:15):
to find that you and yourpartner want different things,
but you always have thatultimate choice.
I imagine that if someone isexploring nontraditional
relationships as an attempt tosave a marriage or as an attempt
to, to keep someone that isgoing to be, that's going to be
tricky because it's not endwell.
(33:37):
It's, it's not what they reallywant, right?
It's not coming from a place oflike, yes, I, I agree to this
because I think it would alsofit.
And I think I can do it and I'minterested in it.
It is really just coming from aplace of, I'll say yes, I'll
give you permission, even thoughI don't like it.
Yes.
(33:58):
Because it will make you happyand maybe you'll stay here.
Yeah, that is, that is such animportant thing.
You just said it's, you'rechoosing it to, to try and
please the other person and notbecause it's what you would
choose to, right.
And that's where the self, theself abandonment, um, starts
happening.
(34:18):
And the way I think about it,and I'm interested in your
thoughts about this is thatthrough consent means I choose
this for myself.
Yes, not that I've talked myselfinto it.
And I make the distinction likeup here in our brain.
We can women, especially humansocializes, women can go through
(34:41):
all kinds of gymnastics to makesomething work.
You know, let's just go withthis example we've been using of
like, I'm trying to save thisrelationship.
And so.
My partner wants it.
It's what will make them happy.
I think I can figure it out.
Like that is the, the logicalbrain trying to talk you into
it.
When, when you dropped into yourbody, like, how do you, is it,
(35:06):
is it springing forth from yourown desire?
It is.
Is it like if there were nopartner involved, would you
decide on your own?
Hey, I think I would like tolook at some non traditional
relationship practices.
And if that's not the truth, Idon't think that's real consent.
What do you think?
(35:27):
No, I completely agree with you.
I think the thing I watch for alot of times with clients, like
what they are experiencing intheir body is like a big sigh or
like they can take a deep breathor their shoulders relax.
You know, if thinking aboutdoing something, even if it's
something totally new and maybea little uncomfortable, maybe,
(35:49):
you know, you're unsure aboutit.
I still think if you notice afeeling of like, Oh, okay.
Like it takes some pressure off,you know, then that's probably a
sign that like, you are okaywith it.
You're saying yes to it becauseI don't think I was saying this
to someone else the other day.
(36:09):
I can't remember who it was.
I'm saying, I don't think thatthat feeling and in our bodies
of like, I can breathe, I cantake a deep breath, right.
Is ever a lie.
Like our bodies don't fake that.
It's so good.
You know, we don't fake relief.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It did feel like a lot ofanxiety.
(36:32):
Right?
Like.
Yeah.
What we fake is accommodation.
Yes.
Yes.
We fake, we fake like, we fakelike, uh, agreeing like, no, no,
no, no, no, that's fine.
Yeah.
No, I can totally do that.
Yeah.
No, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
That, that kind of, it's such agood point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
When we get to a place of actualrelief, you're right, the
(36:53):
breath, like a nice deep, like Ifeel grounded, calm, settled,
like, yes, this might be scary.
This might be unknown, but Iwillingly choose it and want to
go in that direction.
And I feel calm and connected.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
(37:16):
Consent is so tricky becausewhen you don't have it.
Nothing else works because thenlet's, let's imagine, you know,
there's a woman trying to save amarriage enters into non
traditional practices becausethere is not any consent.
She is fighting that the wholetime, you know, having to
(37:40):
constantly revisit the fact thatit was never fully her choice
with a hundred percent being onboard.
And so that just, that makes itrough.
It might also be kind of anunspoken contract.
In her mind that like, well, ifI say yes to this, right, then
that means that you're going toshow up differently.
(38:00):
You'll be better, relationshipwill improve, like something
like that that hasn't reallybeen discussed.
Yeah.
Kind of like a tip for tat.
Yeah.
And it can show up.
I think a lot, like very oftenit's passive aggressiveness.
Like you said, yes.
But you didn't really mean yes,yes, you know, so there's going
(38:22):
to be little backhandedcomments, you know, things, or
almost like looking for thingsto be mad about track in order
to create conflict and say,like, see, this isn't working.
Yeah.
That's so important.
And I think that just speaks to,you know, your point about
needing individual support.
(38:43):
That's not the person becausethey're not going to see, right.
They're not going to see it thesame way.
And they're okay.
But you said yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
No, you say like one of thethings I also want to mention,
like we're talking about it fromthe perspective of someone whose
(39:04):
partner has maybe come to themand asked.
Um, but it can also be just asdifficult for to be the partner
who wants to ask, say more aboutthat.
Um, well, I just think there isa, I think probably a lot of
people, this is why they end upcheating, right?
Because they're needingsomething else.
(39:25):
They're not getting somethingfrom their partner.
There's always so many reasons.
Um, but it's so much more scaryto go to your partner who you
add this like commitment to,right?
Whether you're married or not.
And say, Hey, I would like tohave relationships of some type
(39:47):
with other people outside ofjust me and you, because there's
a fear of gosh, judgment, right?
Being called selfish and like.
You know, who, who even knowswhat else, um, of hurting the
other person of being rejected.
Like maybe you don't want to notbe with this partner, but if
(40:12):
you're going to ask for this,they also have the right to say
like, that is not what I want inthe least.
Yeah.
And I don't even want a partnerwho would ask for that.
Yeah.
So it's very scary to start thatconversation.
That's such a good point.
And I think it just goes back tobeing able to tolerate the
(40:36):
discomfort of communicatingsomething that you think is
going to make someone elseupset.
And that, that is something weall have in every type of
relationship, no matter what itis.
Like being able to sit with andlisten to and just feel the
fear, anxiety, worry, discomfortof saying something you think
(41:00):
someone else is going to be madat or upset at, or it's going to
make them sad or going to makethem doubt or going to make them
judge.
I would also just want toremind.
People that, if they had apartner who brought this to
them, it doesn't necessarilymean that the only option for
your partner is that you sayyes, right.
(41:24):
To whatever request there may beit.
I think the first place to gowould be like, let's look at why
the request is there in thefirst place.
Like, and that's going to beuncomfortable, but there's some
really important discussions tobe had there about like, what
this person feels like ismissing more of maybe like what
(41:46):
they haven't even communicatedto you about what they want from
you.
Right.
And it gives you an opportunityto say like, well, is there a
way for me to meet those Like,are there, is there a way for us
to do things differently thatwould tend to some of those
instead of jumping straight to,like, maybe we need to open our
(42:07):
relationship?
Yeah, that's so good.
Um, the communication, the, thelevel of honesty and ability to
sit with discomfort is one ofthose tools that will benefit
any relationship.
Yeah.
And.
It's essential if you areexploring some of these non
traditional.
Have a healthy non traditionalrelationship structure.
(42:31):
If you cannot communicate openlyand be honest and vulnerable and
be willing to hear uncomfortablethings.
And like, choose how you respondto that versus just getting
triggered and reacting.
Yeah.
It's just not going to work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You mentioned that someone whohas a high degree of security in
(42:54):
relationships will have possiblyan easier time of this.
Does that mean that People whohave more avoidant or anxious
attachment styles in some oftheir relationships, it's harder
for them.
Um, I actually think this isjust my personal opinion,
personal thought that if someoneis avoidant, they're not
(43:16):
necessarily doing that well, butit will be easier for them to
kind of.
Almost look like they're formingattachments with lots of other
people, but it's really like themore attachments I have, the
easier it is.
So good.
Yeah.
A little bit further away fromme.
Um, so yeah, then, then theyjust don't have to be intimate
(43:39):
or vulnerable with anybodybecause there's just so many of
them.
Okay.
And it's, and it could be evenmore protective.
Yes.
Yep.
Okay.
Such a good point.
I definitely think like someonewith anxious attachment, this is
probably not the kind ofrelationship structure that's a
real good fit for you because,um, because if you already skew
(44:03):
towards anxiety about yourpartner being distant from you
or leaving or having feelingsfor someone else, right.
Or abandoning you in some way,there's so many more
opportunities for that to gettriggered and come up.
Okay.
Yeah.
There are like other partnersoutside of you involved.
(44:24):
Yeah.
Just really hard.
It's a lot to manage.
Do you think that someone withan anxious attachment style can
heal that and come to a place ofmore security where they are
able to have some of these nontraditional practices?
Yeah, I think that they can, Idon't know that I would say it's
(44:44):
ever healed.
I think if you have an anxiousattachment style, it's kind of
like the way that your brain iswired.
And even if it's not as much ofa problem for you anymore, it
doesn't mean that it's not goingto get triggered sometimes.
So you may be able to change howyou respond to it, but it's not
that you've like eliminated ithappening ever again.
(45:04):
That's a good point.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
I do think you can learn toolsand skills.
But you're also kind of choosingto put yourself in situations
where you may have to use thosea whole lot more often.
You know, you may have to cometo those tools a lot more
frequently than if you were inanother relationship.
(45:27):
Yeah, that, that makes a lot ofsense as we kind of wrap up
here.
What, what have we not talkedabout that you really wanted to
make sure you say, or is thereanything else that.
Um, I think one of the things Ithink about a lot comes from
relationship anarchy.
(45:48):
And I think initially, like ifsomeone were to Google
relationship anarchy, they'reinitially going to see it come
up with a lot of talk aboutpolyamory and non monogamy.
And that can scare some peopleoff.
But.
I love the relationship anarchyprinciples as a whole, just
because they offer so muchautonomy and so much choice and
(46:12):
deliberateness, um, into ourrelationships.
And that can totally be if arelationship is monogamous as
well.
Like it doesn't say thateveryone has to be non
monogamous, but one of thethings that they talk about is
the lack of a hierarchy inrelationships.
And I think we see this a lot.
Like you can probably either youyourself have experienced or
(46:36):
people, you know, haveexperienced feeling like they've
almost lost a really closefriend when that friend gets
married.
Yeah.
They've been friends for like10, 15 years now, because of the
way that we do things in societyright now, the partner that
they've married becomes like thego to like that is their person.
(47:00):
And so the other relationshipkind of.
It gets put on the back burner.
It kind of like gets demoted ina way.
And so relationship anarchy justsuggests that like, we don't
have to have a hierarchy.
Like nothing has to change.
You can actually go to your bestfriend for advice and for
(47:20):
talking about like majordecisions and things like that,
rather than having to be theperson that you're married to.
And you go back to that idea ofthe relationships mortgage
board.
It's like, you get to choosewhat relationships.
involve, which relationshipsinvolve different things.
I really love that.
(47:41):
I really love that.
And I'm so glad you said thatbecause I think some of the,
again, we're back to just this,you know, programming of like,
you're going to marry thisperson and they're going to
complete you.
They're going to be the personwho knows you.
And I was so disappointed in myhusband's ability to like, be my
(48:02):
person.
He just did not do a good jobwith that because he was being
his own person.
Right.
Thank you.
And it was a source of a lot ofconflict of like, how come you
just don't love me that way?
I want to be loved and you justdon't know me the way I want to
be known and relying on myplatonic relationships and
(48:23):
having like scheduled time.
I think you make a fantasticpoint because in our
programming, like romanticrelationships are the pinnacle
of what is valued.
Yeah.
Oh, don't even get me started onthe whole, like all the things,
every single need that you couldhave.
Yeah.
The reason we talk about themnow is like this one person is
(48:43):
going to fulfill all of it.
Yeah.
That's the way marriage used tobe at all.
No.
No.
It was like, you get like yourbasic needs met, right?
You have a roof over your head.
You have someone to havechildren with and share the
labor.
And like, we all stay alive andmaybe you, maybe you married
(49:04):
that person cause you kind ofliked them.
Maybe you didn't.
It was just for purely economicor social reasons.
Right?
Yeah.
You thought they were a niceperson.
You weren't in love with them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's such a great point.
All of that.
Yeah.
Plus, we also want the likechemical, like, you know,
biological, we want to beattracted to you and turned on
(49:27):
and have the chemistry and feelthe love and all the things.
Plus, make sure you like thesame things as me.
We want the same kind of houseand lifestyle.
We have the same ideas aboutdomestic labor and gender roles
and all the things.
Yeah, it's so one of the bestthings we ever did in my
relationship was, was, um, justreally give each other a lot of
(49:50):
permission to value lots of timewith friends.
My husband loves to have deepconversations about the time
space continuum and, uh, blackholes.
And I, I just, I love him somuch and I would be fine to
never talk about that.
So when his friends come overand they're going to go upstairs
and.
Play pool and talk about, uh, Ican't even think of anyway.
(50:14):
Yes.
I'm like, yes, yes.
And I'm so happy that he gets tohave that experience with people
who love that just as much as hedoes.
And it doesn't mean anythingabout me, except that I now get
to go, you know, have some timeon my own.
So I love that you brought upthat lack of hierarchy because
we do have to just constantlyquestion.
Um, is what I am doing formyself.
(50:36):
What I want.
Yeah.
Was this my choice?
Is this my choice?
It's just what I thought I wassupposed to do or saw everyone
else doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm going to introduce likegender role anarchy.
Maybe that terms already outthere, but that was really
helpful for me.
And I just want to name that aswell as like, just because we
grew up this way withexpectations of me as a human
(51:00):
socialized as a woman.
And you as a human socialized asa man, is that what we continue
to choose?
And sometimes we still do.
I'm a way better cook than myhusband.
And that means, you know, thatwe choose that I do that, but he
has taken on some roles thatused to be documentary, a fair
play.
(51:20):
Ooh, so good would be a greatresource for people.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
I love that you said that.
Again, this is like coming backto that whole idea of
relationship agreements.
Yeah.
That, that book, and there's nowa documentary where they kind of
talk about the same thing.
Um, it is a great conversationstarter for agreeing on some of
(51:43):
those things involving domesticand emotional labor within the
house.
Yeah.
That often we just kind of fallinto.
Yeah.
Totally.
It's like, wait, you're alwaysdoing the dishes and you're
always like doing the yard workand, but do you actually, like,
are you okay with that?
Do you like doing that stuff?
You know, if you got to justlike start over and pick from
(52:04):
scratch what you wanted to doaround the house.
Yeah.
And that's the thing that wejust never are told.
We can start over and pick fromscratch, start over from scratch
and choose whenever we want,whenever we want.
I also just want to give a shoutout to the book platonic.
Um, it's really opened my eyes.
To the importance thisrelationship hierarchy agreement
(52:27):
that, you know, you and I havebeen talking about and how
friendship is such a often muchmore enduring.
Yes.
I've been married, you know, tomy husband for 25 years.
This year, but I havefriendships that have been going
like 30 years or 35 years.
And so, yeah, they, yeah, theyare in some really significant
(52:48):
ways.
Yeah.
So Kimberly, thank you so muchfor this conversation.
I feel like there's going to bea lot of great discussions that
come out of this.
If people want to find you,follow you, learn more about you
and your coaching for, um, youknow, non traditional
relationship help or otherwise,where should they find you?
Um, so Instagram is my favoriteplace to be on social media
(53:10):
right now.
They can find me there at theKimberly Mathis and my website
is Kimberly Mathis.
com.
And I also have a podcast calleddecisions change everything that
is on Spotify and Apple.
Okay.
Go find her there.
She's amazing.
Kimberly.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Such an interesting discussion.
You are listening to the ex goodgirl podcast, episode 60,
Kimberly Mathis, you have beenon my mind for quite some time.
And this podcast episode hasbeen something that I've just
loved kind of working on behindthe scenes with you.
And I'm so glad we get to havethis conversation.
Yes.
I think it'll be an interestingconversation, probably a little
(00:23):
unusual.
Uh, interesting and unusual.
I think that's what people need,right?
Tell everyone who you are andwhat you do.
Sure.
I am Kimberly Mathis.
I am a former licensed marriageand family therapist who
transitioned into coaching aboutthree and a half years ago.
And I'm a general life coach.
(00:44):
I coach mostly women, but alsosome men on anything and
everything.
And I like to jokingly say I'ma.
Professional mind manager.
Um, but I really just helppeople change things that feel
very unchangeable.
Uh, that is so good.
I think every one of us canidentify with something that
(01:04):
just feels like, Nope, that'sjust the way it is, that
relationship, that situation,something it's just going to,
it's that's the way it is.
And that's how it's always goingto be.
Yeah.
It's my favorite thing.
Amazing.
Well, one of those things thatto a lot of people just feels
unchangeable.
Yeah.
Is our idea of relationships andwhere you and I have been having
(01:27):
some, uh, really greatdiscussions is non traditional
relationships.
And I don't, I'm just admittingup front.
I don't know a lot about that.
I have worked with some clientsin some non traditional
relationships, but, uh, haven'treally explored that world
(01:48):
beyond, you know, kind ofhelping a few clients.
What should someone who is newto non traditional
relationships, I've also heardit called relationship anarchy.
What are some things that theyshould know?
Oh goodness.
Well, I think a really importantthing to know is that you're
(02:09):
probably going to feel a littlebit alone, a little bit like an
outsider.
And so it's really important tofind communities or
professionals or other resourcesthat just validate that like you
are not the only person in thissituation or having these
questions or thinking thesethings because A lot of what we
(02:33):
will be discussing and a lot ofpeople end up kind of looking
into are things that are outsidesocietal norms, cultural norms,
things that might be a littlemore taboo.
And it's hard to kind of findyour footing when it's something
new and you have this additionallayer of like, that's not the
(02:54):
way you're supposed to be doingit.
Okay, so you're speakingdirectly to somebody who is
maybe curious about this ortrying to bring some
nontraditional practices into atraditional relationship.
They might feel alone.
They might feel like I'm doingsomething I'm not supposed to be
doing because of all thisprogramming that we have.
Well, let's just name theprogramming because I feel like
(03:16):
that's a really helpful.
Place to start.
So obviously from a, like afeminist patriarchy lens, which
is what I use a lot in coaching.
Women are taught that you aresupposed to be chosen, right?
That you, you kind of prettyyourself up and you make
yourself choosable and that yourvalue is in being chosen.
(03:38):
It's in having a long termromantic partner.
Um, we have a heteronormative.
Yes.
There's also something calledthe relationship escalator.
Oh, tell me that.
What is it?
Kinds of heteronormativity.
It's basically that there is aprescribed way, like a step up
(04:01):
in these different phases ofrelationships.
To make a relationshipsuccessful.
So if a relationship is validand it is successful, it has
gone up this escalator.
So like it's dating, then datingexclusively, then getting
engaged, then getting married,then moving in together and
sharing all the finances, havingchildren, staying together until
(04:23):
you both die.
This is basically what it is.
Like that is the.
If a relationship is a goodrelationship, right?
It will move forward in a sense,move up those different steps.
And it's so interesting becauseat some point I've noticed this.
We are no longer concerned withthe quality of that
(04:46):
relationship.
We're just concerned with thelongevity of it.
And that's what we celebrate.
Like I'm celebrating 25 years ofmarriage this year.
And I feel, um, grateful that myhusband and I have had kind of
twin paths of changing and, and,um, becoming different people
together.
(05:06):
Um, but it's so interesting.
I know people who've beenmarried for 25 years who don't
like each other anymore as much.
And so, but, but they're beingcongratulated on.
Oh, my gosh, you guys have beentogether 25 years.
That's amazing.
And we're much less concernedwith.
The quality.
So is that where some of thesenon traditional practices kind
(05:30):
of come in in a helpful way?
Yeah, I think in a way they, thereason they came about is
because people are just talkingabout and naming like very
normal human experiences when itcomes to having feelings for
someone or more than one personhaving attraction, um, valuing
(05:51):
different types ofrelationships.
Like it's just discussing.
Very normal experiences thathave been kind of for whatever
reason, right.
Lumped into the, like, this isbad.
This is not as healthy.
This is not the way it'ssupposed to go.
And yet people are still likeexperiencing that.
And so it gives, I think it justarticulates like, yes, this is
(06:16):
normal.
Yes.
Here's what you're feeling.
And if you want to navigatethis, if you don't just want to
shut it all down, like maybehere's some ways to do that that
are healthy.
And respectful and respect yourautonomy and someone else's.
Yeah.
So I think they've just come outof discussion.
(06:38):
It's so interesting.
Cause that's also part of theprogramming.
Um, really quickly, I justwanted to give a definition of
heteronormative for if that, ifthat's new to you, it's just,
it's just the idea that aheterosexual relationship is
what everybody has.
It's what is normal is what isit's what is expected.
So, but I want to throw outanother term.
(06:59):
Please.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Impulsive heterosexuality.
Tell me what that means.
Referred to as comphet.
Um, I found this perhaps on alate blooming lesbians, Reddit
thread way in the day.
And it's a big, huge list of howfrom the get go, we are kind of
(07:21):
programmed to just think ofourselves as being straight.
Like when you think abouttoddlers on the playground, you
know, and it's like, Oh, it'sher little boyfriend or his
little girlfriend, totally onshirts and all of that stuff.
It's a very interesting list ofthings.
Oh my gosh.
I saw a boy, this was a targetyesterday and he was, he was
(07:44):
probably two and he was wearinga t shirt that said lady killer.
Yes.
Yeah.
So just, yeah.
So, so not only isheterosexuality considered to be
what is normal, but you'resaying and naming there's a part
of it that is compulsive in thatthat's just what we actually
push onto people.
(08:06):
This is the way you are supposedto.
Yes.
Babies and children arestraight.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
People.
And now.
Yeah.
And.
Yes.
So part of the, another part ofthe programming that I just
wanted to name that came up whenyou were talking about how some
of these non traditionalpractices come into being, we,
(08:29):
we are taught that I'm only eversupposed to be attracted to my
husband.
I'm only ever supposed to thinkthat he is the, you know, the
only handsome man walking theplanet.
And he's only supposed to havethose same thoughts about me as
well.
And We know from just humanexperience that, that that's not
how attraction works.
(08:50):
Right.
And, and if you have the valueor if you have the, the, um,
agreed on, you know,Relationship component of we are
only going to act on attractionfor each other.
Then that means you'remonogamous, but there are people
who either don't have that valueor don't think that the practice
(09:12):
of only fostering attraction toone person is what is best for
them.
So tell me.
Tell me what kinds and I knowyou're not going to be able to
name like every single iterationof every single non traditional
relationship, but give me anidea of like, what is out there
that people are trying.
Um, so relationship anarchy isconsidered one, um, one form of
(09:37):
a non traditional relationshipand it's kind of, uh, bringing
anarchist principles.
Like we reject all the.
Rules into intimaterelationships, um, that would be
one there's an, and that caninclude.
Relationships in which there aremultiple partners and it can be
monogamous relationships,although I think that's probably
(09:59):
less common for people who, um,kind of ascribe to relationship
anarchy.
Um, then there's polyamory,which there's all sorts of
different variations ofpolyamory.
There's solo polyamory.
There's kitchen table,polyamory.
There's just regular, I guess,polyamory.
(10:19):
Um, there's ethical nonmonogamy.
I think that's probably the mostcommon.
I'm sure there's probably someoutliers of other things out
there, but yeah, that's what Iremember.
Um, I mean, E and M kind ofcoming on the scene of my
(10:39):
consciousness.
Like, I don't know if it wasduring the pandemics, I just
read like article after articlebecause I was just so fascinated
by, um, How does someone do thisin a way that doesn't?
Like totally blow up their lifeand, and if they want to keep a
relationship and yet they arefeeling, um, decided, like, how,
(11:03):
how would someone know if nontraditional relationships were
something that they or shouldexplore?
What might some signs be intheir relationship?
Um, I don't know.
So I think that some people lookat this as like, it's almost
(11:27):
like the queer debate aboutwhether you are born this way or
whether you are, it's a choicethat you make, you know, not
settled that yet.
No, we certainly have, my God.
Yeah, I have a whole podcastepisode on this, by the way, is
it like a choice?
Um, and I do think it's probablyboth for people who are thinking
(11:51):
about or in non-traditionalrelationships.
I think some people areprobably.
It's a combination of nature andnurture, right?
And just to be clear, we're nottalking about queer people
anymore having both.
We're talking about peoplechoosing these non traditional
relationships.
Yeah.
People who are wired in a way,like they have had.
(12:12):
Secure attachments.
They have not had relationshiptraumas.
You know, they have had a kindof upbringing the way that they
think about the world.
It's all these factors that makeit easier for them to step into
something that is outside thenorm.
I think there are other peoplewho might be interested in it
(12:35):
because.
Of maybe their currentrelationship, like maybe they're
having difficulties, but theydon't want to split up.
So they're like, how can we staytogether, you know, and both of
us get our needs met and both ofus be happy.
And so they might start learningabout these other things.
And it might also take them morework to kind of.
(12:57):
Move into that and it's probablygoing to bring up a lot of stuff
for them.
Like, I think there's people allover the spectrum when it comes
to this.
I think when you ask, like, whatare the signs?
I don't know that there have tobe signs.
I think it's just like, if youwant to explore some other
(13:17):
options for whatever reason, Youhave the right to do that.
I think that's such a, a freeingtake on it.
I just remember, so I grew upMormon and in Mormon land, you
don't get a divorce unlesssomething illegal or immoral has
(13:39):
happened, like an affair orsomething.
And I remember, um, coming, justcoming into coaching, like by
listening to Podcast, you know,uh, and one of the, I, we, we
were both deeply unhappy attimes in our marriage, but felt
just kind of stuck in it becauseit's like, you know, nobody's
(14:00):
doing anything illegal orimmoral.
And those are the only exitramps out of this.
And so, but being given thepiece of.
Advice.
You know what?
You can only really choose yourmarriage if you have the option
to not choose it.
And going through the exerciseof like, do I want to, uh, do I
(14:21):
want a divorce?
Like what are all the reasonswhy I might, and what are all
the valid reasons?
What are all the, you know,valid was just my own definition
of valid.
But then going through thatreally as a real actual choice.
Was so powerful for me becauseit actually made me choose to
stay married in a way that hasworked out Incredibly like and I
(14:44):
didn't realize unless You havethe choice to not choose it.
Is it really a choice?
And so even for someone, I wouldsay, who is curious or or seeing
some places where nontraditional practices might be
helpful that just because you'regoing to research them and learn
about them doesn't mean.
(15:04):
You're going to take that road.
It doesn't mean anything aboutyou.
Sometimes it just reaffirms orgives you new insight into
choosing a traditionalrelationship.
So that's kind of how it, youknow, I, I wasn't necessarily, I
wasn't looking intonontraditional practices, but
even divorce.
Was a very in my mind at thattime, a non traditional, you
(15:26):
know, way of just, again, beingin that programming of like, you
just keep going.
It doesn't matter how good itis.
It just matters how long it is.
So, um, how have you ever hadpeople.
And in your coaching practice,like explore nontraditional
relationships and then have thatjust reaffirm their commitment
(15:49):
to a more traditional lookingrelationship.
Um, I have had some people cometo me that were already in, um,
like they, they didn't seek meout to help them kind of begin
this process.
They were already.
In some sort of relationshipthat was non traditional, um,
(16:10):
non monogamous and I think, Imean, I'll just be completely
honest.
I think most of the, when Ithink back on it, most of the
people who were in thoserelationships, they ended up
splitting up from theirpartners.
Yeah.
Um, I can't think of anyactually off the top of my head
(16:32):
that remain together, um,because I will say, I think
there's so much pressure to staymarried societally that
sometimes people agree torelationship agreements, new
relationship agreements, such aslike ethical non monogamy.
(16:54):
They are scared of being ontheir own.
They don't want to get adivorce.
Right.
And so they'll agree to do someof these other things that maybe
they're really not.
Yeah.
Okay.
With or totally want themselves.
And it's kind of like a lastditch effort to like to hold on
to the person.
Yeah.
In some kind of new format.
(17:16):
Well, where I really thought ourdiscussion could be valuable,
um, is in talking about thetools.
That somebody would need tostart exploring non traditional
relationships with the, the,also just the, the eye on the
fact that these tools will makeany relationship better, whether
(17:37):
it's a traditional or nontraditional.
So if you, if you could have,you know, started with either
one of the couples that you'rethinking of in the very
beginning, what would you havetold them about the tools or
skills that they would need?
I think the very first thing Iwould want to spend some time
on, and it's probably severalsessions is getting really clear
(18:00):
on their definitions of thingsand the kind of agreements they
want to set up.
As they kind of move into, youknow, a new structure or new,
um, what's the word agreementlike agreements is the word that
(18:22):
comes to mind, but it's almostlike, um, things that they're
giving each other permission todo.
Yeah.
I get to talk about them, howthey want to check in with each
other, what they tell eachother.
Yeah.
Is that is that kind of whatrelationship agreement is?
That's what I was going to askyou for.
Just give me a definition of arelationship agreement.
Yeah.
A relationship agreement isalmost like a contractual, like
(18:44):
if we were going to write out acontract of how we both operate
in this relationship, what'simportant, what we have both
like we understand.
To be a, um, it might be aboundary, a non negotiable, a
protocol for doing something.
Like we have both said that weunderstand it and we affirm we
(19:05):
each are like choosing agreeingto do it this way.
I love that.
It's just something we don'tever do.
And even in a traditionalrelationship, like starting out
with like, what do you think ourroles should be in our
relationship?
I can, I mean, because of my,you know, religious background,
(19:27):
there was a lot of just,Assumptions made about
traditional gender roles.
And I think if I could have hadthe chance to sit down and even
just talk about them, at leastat least it would have given me
the opportunity to consider itand either agree on purpose or
say, you know what?
I don't know that.
I want to be always the personwho's doing that.
So why is it so important tostart with definitions?
(19:51):
Oh my gosh, because if we justsay cheating, right, no
cheating, that can mean so manydifferent things to different
people can be sex.
It can be kissing.
It can be flirting with someone.
It can be exchanging texts.
It could be emotional intimacy.
So I think like the first thingyou have to do is make sure that
(20:14):
you are on the same page.
When it comes to like, okay, sono cheating on each other or no
lying about blah, blah, blah, orjust whatever it may be, you
know, or how much time we wantto spend together.
Like spending, someone couldsay, we want to spend quality
time.
Okay.
Well, what does that mean toyou?
(20:34):
What is quality time?
Right.
Is it being engaged with eachother and like taking time away
from the house and kids for us,someone else?
It could be, you're just sittingbeside me and we're not talking
while we watch a show on TV.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
Examine what all that stuffmeans.
To each person.
So good.
Good starting place.
(20:56):
So good.
And so important, even intraditional relationships, like
how would we know if we werespending quality time together?
Because even like what feelslike quality time to me might be
different than quality time toyou.
And so I love to ask that followup questions.
Like how would we know if thiswas happening?
And I think relationshipagreements are not one and done,
(21:16):
like they are ongoing.
It's a conversation that youhave over and over again,
especially if you're in arelationship with someone for a
long time, because thosedefinitions may change for
people.
Totally.
So we have to revisit them.
Do you recommend, or would yourecommend like a, a revisiting
(21:37):
format where like once a month,every six months?
Yeah.
I would say, you know, when youare maybe doing something
totally new, like ethical nonmonogamy, if that was something
you and a partner were going to,you know, explore, then probably
want to have those conversationsmore often than if you are a
(21:59):
couple who's been married 25years, right.
And things are.
Mostly the same.
Your lives are mostly the same.
Then you might do it like once ayear.
You might have a bigrelationship check in.
So is that what you mean?
I was just going to say ifthings are, there's a lot
changing.
I would probably do it moreoften initially.
So is that what you mean?
(22:20):
I've heard you talk about likerelationship business meetings.
Is that, is that what you meanby that?
Well, we think about, we justthink about businesses
differently than relationshipsand how important it is to have
a business plan and like, knowwhat's going on in your
business.
(22:40):
For example, like knowing the,all the numbers, the finances
and like checking in about yourgoals and where you are, because
we all think businesses shouldbe successful, right?
Like it's supporting your lifefor a lot of people, it's their
income.
And we don't think aboutrelationships the same way.
(23:00):
You know, we get into them andit's like, yes, they're
important and they're supportingour life.
And we're not having anyrelationship meetings.
It's like we get married andthere we are, you know, just
expect it to just go.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yep.
Or we have arguments.
We don't have preemptivediscussions, you know, and sit
(23:21):
downs and check ins.
That's true.
And so the, the time when you'rediscussing.
What is happening in therelationship is when something
is going wrong.
Yes.
When, when emotions are high,when you're mad, because, you
know, there's been somethingunsatisfactory that's happening.
(23:42):
And so, yeah, there's kind ofthis expectation, right?
That like, if they really loveyou.
Right.
It's that whole mind readingthing.
Like they should just know theyshould get it.
Right.
Or there's an assumption that ifcheating means this to me,
right.
Then it means the same to them.
(24:03):
Like the way that we definethings and think about things is
how our partner do it.
And we never question it.
For sure.
The other thing that I, where Ican see this kind of like
business structure being reallyhelpful is that as you As you
are older and you have multiplerelationships, all those
(24:24):
relationships have informed whatyou think a relationship should
be like and how it should work.
If you divorce, like, I thinkabout my husband and I, you
know, we got married, I was 25,he was 26 and We had had
previous relationships, but wekind of just created, like, if
we're going to use the businessmetaphor, our own little
business together, right?
(24:44):
And then we had kids and wejust, we were, we were partners
in it from the very beginning.
But if you, let's just say youdivorce.
Yeah.
It's like, I, it's almost likemy, my next relationship with
I'm 50, another, you know,person, my age, it's almost more
like a merger because he hasthis.
(25:07):
Yeah.
Fully formed business backgroundof different relationships and,
and I can see it being verysimilar with, you know, non
traditional relationships.
You're not like starting fromscratch.
Yeah.
With, with anybody anymorebecause you've just had so many
years of relationshipexperience.
Yeah.
I was gonna bring this up.
(25:28):
Like it's come, it's popped intomy mind several times.
There is something called therelationships smorgasbord.
It's awful to try to, um, spell,but it is a relationship
anarchy.
It came out of relationshipanarchy, but it's the idea that
all these things that we justkind of assume are included in a
(25:51):
romantic.
Intimate relationship thatthey're actually more like
things on a platter or like abuffet and you don't have to put
every single thing on your plateshoes, what you want.
And so I think that this ishelpful when you're starting to
date someone, because it's like,what do I want?
(26:13):
If we're going to move forward,if we both want a serious
relationship, right, then whatdo we want that relationship to
include?
And same thing, like if you getdivorced, right?
Like you might not need the samethings.
You might not want the samethings on your plate.
Totally when you were 25.
So it includes things like, um,of course, like sexual intimacy,
(26:36):
uh, physical affection finances.
Are we sharing our money?
Are we combining money?
It can include caretaking ofchildren or of pets.
Um, it can, uh, include likesomeone being your life partner,
but not necessarily a domesticPartner.
(26:58):
That's so interesting.
Yeah.
All together.
Like, do we want to travel?
Do we want to share businessestogether?
Like, do we want to get involvedin each other's business?
Um, emotional intimacy, justlike all the things you're
reminding me of an article thatI read, and this was several
years ago now about women whoare in like maybe, uh, late
(27:21):
sixties, early seventies, midseventies, whose first partner
dies.
They want partnership, but theydo not want to get married.
They do not want to move intogether again.
They do not want to clean house,cook, do any kind of caretaking.
And so I didn't realize that'slike, Relationship anarchy,
(27:43):
because what they're essentiallysaying is while you and I are
both healthy, we're going to gettogether.
We're going to maybe haveintimacy, be, you know, sexual
intimacy, be part of it.
Maybe not.
Uh, we're going to travel, but Ido not clean your house.
I do not cook your meals.
I do not take any kind ofresponsibility for your
healthcare because for women,that type of free labor, they're
(28:03):
just over it.
And they're not going to do thatfor anybody else.
Interesting.
Yeah.
What they want theirrelationship to include instead
of it has to look the way italways has or the way it does
for most people.
Yeah, yeah, that's sointeresting.
So if someone can get some gooddefinitions and create a
(28:30):
relationship agreement, and thensome kind of.
Uh, structure for revisitingthat relationship agreement and
look at it more like, like someof the ways that we tend to look
at healthy, successfulbusinesses, what else would they
need to kind of look at afterthat?
I mean, I definitely thinkaccess to their own individual
(28:52):
support, like with a coach or atherapist, it's going to be
really helpful because thingswill come up, things are going
to get triggered.
And having a place that's notthe person you're trying to do
it with, having a place toprocess all of that and clarify
for yourself, like what youreally want and what matters to
(29:13):
you and you know, what is okayand what is not okay, what you
want to communicate.
It's really, really helpful.
What are some of the things thatsomeone could expect to come up
like those things you're talkingabout?
For one thing, jealousy is a bigone and it's not a matter of not
(29:34):
being jealous.
Because it's a normal humanthing, right?
And especially with all of theprogramming that we have about
relationships and what it meansif someone is attracted to
someone else, right?
Then they're not attracted toyou or they are attracted more
to that person than you.
Like so much of it has to dowith rejection and it meaning
(29:57):
something about our own selfworth.
It's like just knowing thatjealousy is going to come up and
it is normal.
I think that's important, butit's how you handle the
jealousy.
I think that matters.
Not it being there that it beingthere is not a problem.
So being there should beexpected.
(30:17):
It's not a sign that somethinghas gone wrong or it's not
working or you're not doing itcorrectly.
Yes.
Okay.
Here's where I see the peoplepleasing.
I mean, coming in is in theskills that are needed to
communicate.
I'm feeling jealous.
I'm feeling left out.
(30:37):
I'm feeling like I don't get thesame amount of time.
Women have so much programmingaround not being needy, not, um,
but waiting to be chosen, butyet not being needy, um, not
taking up too much space, notwhining, not complaining, you
know, really.
And then, and then gel that,that jealousy means they're bad
(31:01):
or wrong.
I think this is so, it's such anuanced, like complicated
discussion.
Um, what was coming to my mindas you were talking about that
is.
Um, I think it's also very easyif you are a people pleaser,
especially women, just like,like you were saying with like
(31:24):
the, I don't want to be tooneedy, you know, I don't want to
need too much.
I don't want to complain toomuch.
Blah, blah, blah.
It's really easy to try to talkyourself out of what you are
feeling or wanting or needingbecause you're like, well, I can
see the logic in these.
Arguments for ethical nonmonogamy or relationship anarchy
(31:46):
or polyamory, whatever it maybe.
And I know there are people whowork past it and move past it
and all of that.
And it's okay if you don't wantto do all that work.
It's okay if you're just like.
Um, I've tried, I really wish Icould get myself there and I
cannot, this is not for me.
(32:07):
I think that's the scary partbecause if you have a tendency
to people, please, you'reprobably also not that
comfortable being alone andbeing by yourself or feeling
rejected, right?
So to say this isn't working forme really puts on the table, the
possibility that your partner,whoever you're saying that to is
(32:31):
like, well, I'm sorry.
I like.
You know, maybe we split up,this is what I want and then you
have to decide, like maybe Idon't want to be in this
relationship.
It's just very, very scary.
Yeah.
Here's where I like to remindwomen in particular, human
(32:52):
socialized women, that we oftenfeel like we are kind of stuck
in a relationship or heldhostage, even when our partner
is making choices that we don'twant.
And just to keep in mind, youalways have the ultimate choice
of whether or not to stay withme.
In, in any relationship that youare in, it might be so painful
(33:15):
to find that you and yourpartner want different things,
but you always have thatultimate choice.
I imagine that if someone isexploring nontraditional
relationships as an attempt tosave a marriage or as an attempt
to, to keep someone that isgoing to be, that's going to be
tricky because it's not endwell.
(33:37):
It's, it's not what they reallywant, right?
It's not coming from a place oflike, yes, I, I agree to this
because I think it would alsofit.
And I think I can do it and I'minterested in it.
It is really just coming from aplace of, I'll say yes, I'll
give you permission, even thoughI don't like it.
Yes.
(33:58):
Because it will make you happyand maybe you'll stay here.
Yeah, that is, that is such animportant thing.
You just said it's, you'rechoosing it to, to try and
please the other person and notbecause it's what you would
choose to, right.
And that's where the self, theself abandonment, um, starts
happening.
(34:18):
And the way I think about it,and I'm interested in your
thoughts about this is thatthrough consent means I choose
this for myself.
Yes, not that I've talked myselfinto it.
And I make the distinction likeup here in our brain.
We can women, especially humansocializes, women can go through
(34:41):
all kinds of gymnastics to makesomething work.
You know, let's just go withthis example we've been using of
like, I'm trying to save thisrelationship.
And so.
My partner wants it.
It's what will make them happy.
I think I can figure it out.
Like that is the, the logicalbrain trying to talk you into
it.
When, when you dropped into yourbody, like, how do you, is it,
(35:06):
is it springing forth from yourown desire?
It is.
Is it like if there were nopartner involved, would you
decide on your own?
Hey, I think I would like tolook at some non traditional
relationship practices.
And if that's not the truth, Idon't think that's real consent.
What do you think?
(35:27):
No, I completely agree with you.
I think the thing I watch for alot of times with clients, like
what they are experiencing intheir body is like a big sigh or
like they can take a deep breathor their shoulders relax.
You know, if thinking aboutdoing something, even if it's
something totally new and maybea little uncomfortable, maybe,
(35:49):
you know, you're unsure aboutit.
I still think if you notice afeeling of like, Oh, okay.
Like it takes some pressure off,you know, then that's probably a
sign that like, you are okaywith it.
You're saying yes to it becauseI don't think I was saying this
to someone else the other day.
(36:09):
I can't remember who it was.
I'm saying, I don't think thatthat feeling and in our bodies
of like, I can breathe, I cantake a deep breath, right.
Is ever a lie.
Like our bodies don't fake that.
It's so good.
You know, we don't fake relief.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It did feel like a lot ofanxiety.
(36:32):
Right?
Like.
Yeah.
What we fake is accommodation.
Yes.
Yes.
We fake, we fake like, we fakelike, uh, agreeing like, no, no,
no, no, no, that's fine.
Yeah.
No, I can totally do that.
Yeah.
No, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
That, that kind of, it's such agood point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
When we get to a place of actualrelief, you're right, the
(36:53):
breath, like a nice deep, like Ifeel grounded, calm, settled,
like, yes, this might be scary.
This might be unknown, but Iwillingly choose it and want to
go in that direction.
And I feel calm and connected.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
(37:16):
Consent is so tricky becausewhen you don't have it.
Nothing else works because thenlet's, let's imagine, you know,
there's a woman trying to save amarriage enters into non
traditional practices becausethere is not any consent.
She is fighting that the wholetime, you know, having to
(37:40):
constantly revisit the fact thatit was never fully her choice
with a hundred percent being onboard.
And so that just, that makes itrough.
It might also be kind of anunspoken contract.
In her mind that like, well, ifI say yes to this, right, then
that means that you're going toshow up differently.
(38:00):
You'll be better, relationshipwill improve, like something
like that that hasn't reallybeen discussed.
Yeah.
Kind of like a tip for tat.
Yeah.
And it can show up.
I think a lot, like very oftenit's passive aggressiveness.
Like you said, yes.
But you didn't really mean yes,yes, you know, so there's going
(38:22):
to be little backhandedcomments, you know, things, or
almost like looking for thingsto be mad about track in order
to create conflict and say,like, see, this isn't working.
Yeah.
That's so important.
And I think that just speaks to,you know, your point about
needing individual support.
(38:43):
That's not the person becausethey're not going to see, right.
They're not going to see it thesame way.
And they're okay.
But you said yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
No, you say like one of thethings I also want to mention,
like we're talking about it fromthe perspective of someone whose
(39:04):
partner has maybe come to themand asked.
Um, but it can also be just asdifficult for to be the partner
who wants to ask, say more aboutthat.
Um, well, I just think there isa, I think probably a lot of
people, this is why they end upcheating, right?
Because they're needingsomething else.
(39:25):
They're not getting somethingfrom their partner.
There's always so many reasons.
Um, but it's so much more scaryto go to your partner who you
add this like commitment to,right?
Whether you're married or not.
And say, Hey, I would like tohave relationships of some type
(39:47):
with other people outside ofjust me and you, because there's
a fear of gosh, judgment, right?
Being called selfish and like.
You know, who, who even knowswhat else, um, of hurting the
other person of being rejected.
Like maybe you don't want to notbe with this partner, but if
(40:12):
you're going to ask for this,they also have the right to say
like, that is not what I want inthe least.
Yeah.
And I don't even want a partnerwho would ask for that.
Yeah.
So it's very scary to start thatconversation.
That's such a good point.
And I think it just goes back tobeing able to tolerate the
(40:36):
discomfort of communicatingsomething that you think is
going to make someone elseupset.
And that, that is something weall have in every type of
relationship, no matter what itis.
Like being able to sit with andlisten to and just feel the
fear, anxiety, worry, discomfortof saying something you think
(41:00):
someone else is going to be madat or upset at, or it's going to
make them sad or going to makethem doubt or going to make them
judge.
I would also just want toremind.
People that, if they had apartner who brought this to
them, it doesn't necessarilymean that the only option for
your partner is that you sayyes, right.
(41:24):
To whatever request there may beit.
I think the first place to gowould be like, let's look at why
the request is there in thefirst place.
Like, and that's going to beuncomfortable, but there's some
really important discussions tobe had there about like, what
this person feels like ismissing more of maybe like what
(41:46):
they haven't even communicatedto you about what they want from
you.
Right.
And it gives you an opportunityto say like, well, is there a
way for me to meet those Like,are there, is there a way for us
to do things differently thatwould tend to some of those
instead of jumping straight to,like, maybe we need to open our
(42:07):
relationship?
Yeah, that's so good.
Um, the communication, the, thelevel of honesty and ability to
sit with discomfort is one ofthose tools that will benefit
any relationship.
Yeah.
And.
It's essential if you areexploring some of these non
traditional.
Have a healthy non traditionalrelationship structure.
(42:31):
If you cannot communicate openlyand be honest and vulnerable and
be willing to hear uncomfortablethings.
And like, choose how you respondto that versus just getting
triggered and reacting.
Yeah.
It's just not going to work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You mentioned that someone whohas a high degree of security in
(42:54):
relationships will have possiblyan easier time of this.
Does that mean that People whohave more avoidant or anxious
attachment styles in some oftheir relationships, it's harder
for them.
Um, I actually think this isjust my personal opinion,
personal thought that if someoneis avoidant, they're not
(43:16):
necessarily doing that well, butit will be easier for them to
kind of.
Almost look like they're formingattachments with lots of other
people, but it's really like themore attachments I have, the
easier it is.
So good.
Yeah.
A little bit further away fromme.
Um, so yeah, then, then theyjust don't have to be intimate
(43:39):
or vulnerable with anybodybecause there's just so many of
them.
Okay.
And it's, and it could be evenmore protective.
Yes.
Yep.
Okay.
Such a good point.
I definitely think like someonewith anxious attachment, this is
probably not the kind ofrelationship structure that's a
real good fit for you because,um, because if you already skew
(44:03):
towards anxiety about yourpartner being distant from you
or leaving or having feelingsfor someone else, right.
Or abandoning you in some way,there's so many more
opportunities for that to gettriggered and come up.
Okay.
Yeah.
There are like other partnersoutside of you involved.
(44:24):
Yeah.
Just really hard.
It's a lot to manage.
Do you think that someone withan anxious attachment style can
heal that and come to a place ofmore security where they are
able to have some of these nontraditional practices?
Yeah, I think that they can, Idon't know that I would say it's
(44:44):
ever healed.
I think if you have an anxiousattachment style, it's kind of
like the way that your brain iswired.
And even if it's not as much ofa problem for you anymore, it
doesn't mean that it's not goingto get triggered sometimes.
So you may be able to change howyou respond to it, but it's not
that you've like eliminated ithappening ever again.
(45:04):
That's a good point.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
I do think you can learn toolsand skills.
But you're also kind of choosingto put yourself in situations
where you may have to use thosea whole lot more often.
You know, you may have to cometo those tools a lot more
frequently than if you were inanother relationship.
(45:27):
Yeah, that, that makes a lot ofsense as we kind of wrap up
here.
What, what have we not talkedabout that you really wanted to
make sure you say, or is thereanything else that.
Um, I think one of the things Ithink about a lot comes from
relationship anarchy.
(45:48):
And I think initially, like ifsomeone were to Google
relationship anarchy, they'reinitially going to see it come
up with a lot of talk aboutpolyamory and non monogamy.
And that can scare some peopleoff.
But.
I love the relationship anarchyprinciples as a whole, just
because they offer so muchautonomy and so much choice and
(46:12):
deliberateness, um, into ourrelationships.
And that can totally be if arelationship is monogamous as
well.
Like it doesn't say thateveryone has to be non
monogamous, but one of thethings that they talk about is
the lack of a hierarchy inrelationships.
And I think we see this a lot.
Like you can probably either youyourself have experienced or
(46:36):
people, you know, haveexperienced feeling like they've
almost lost a really closefriend when that friend gets
married.
Yeah.
They've been friends for like10, 15 years now, because of the
way that we do things in societyright now, the partner that
they've married becomes like thego to like that is their person.
(47:00):
And so the other relationshipkind of.
It gets put on the back burner.
It kind of like gets demoted ina way.
And so relationship anarchy justsuggests that like, we don't
have to have a hierarchy.
Like nothing has to change.
You can actually go to your bestfriend for advice and for
(47:20):
talking about like majordecisions and things like that,
rather than having to be theperson that you're married to.
And you go back to that idea ofthe relationships mortgage
board.
It's like, you get to choosewhat relationships.
involve, which relationshipsinvolve different things.
I really love that.
(47:41):
I really love that.
And I'm so glad you said thatbecause I think some of the,
again, we're back to just this,you know, programming of like,
you're going to marry thisperson and they're going to
complete you.
They're going to be the personwho knows you.
And I was so disappointed in myhusband's ability to like, be my
(48:02):
person.
He just did not do a good jobwith that because he was being
his own person.
Right.
Thank you.
And it was a source of a lot ofconflict of like, how come you
just don't love me that way?
I want to be loved and you justdon't know me the way I want to
be known and relying on myplatonic relationships and
(48:23):
having like scheduled time.
I think you make a fantasticpoint because in our
programming, like romanticrelationships are the pinnacle
of what is valued.
Yeah.
Oh, don't even get me started onthe whole, like all the things,
every single need that you couldhave.
Yeah.
The reason we talk about themnow is like this one person is
(48:43):
going to fulfill all of it.
Yeah.
That's the way marriage used tobe at all.
No.
No.
It was like, you get like yourbasic needs met, right?
You have a roof over your head.
You have someone to havechildren with and share the
labor.
And like, we all stay alive andmaybe you, maybe you married
(49:04):
that person cause you kind ofliked them.
Maybe you didn't.
It was just for purely economicor social reasons.
Right?
Yeah.
You thought they were a niceperson.
You weren't in love with them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's such a great point.
All of that.
Yeah.
Plus, we also want the likechemical, like, you know,
biological, we want to beattracted to you and turned on
(49:27):
and have the chemistry and feelthe love and all the things.
Plus, make sure you like thesame things as me.
We want the same kind of houseand lifestyle.
We have the same ideas aboutdomestic labor and gender roles
and all the things.
Yeah, it's so one of the bestthings we ever did in my
relationship was, was, um, justreally give each other a lot of
(49:50):
permission to value lots of timewith friends.
My husband loves to have deepconversations about the time
space continuum and, uh, blackholes.
And I, I just, I love him somuch and I would be fine to
never talk about that.
So when his friends come overand they're going to go upstairs
and.
Play pool and talk about, uh, Ican't even think of anyway.
(50:14):
Yes.
I'm like, yes, yes.
And I'm so happy that he gets tohave that experience with people
who love that just as much as hedoes.
And it doesn't mean anythingabout me, except that I now get
to go, you know, have some timeon my own.
So I love that you brought upthat lack of hierarchy because
we do have to just constantlyquestion.
Um, is what I am doing formyself.
(50:36):
What I want.
Yeah.
Was this my choice?
Is this my choice?
It's just what I thought I wassupposed to do or saw everyone
else doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm going to introduce likegender role anarchy.
Maybe that terms already outthere, but that was really
helpful for me.
And I just want to name that aswell as like, just because we
grew up this way withexpectations of me as a human
(51:00):
socialized as a woman.
And you as a human socialized asa man, is that what we continue
to choose?
And sometimes we still do.
I'm a way better cook than myhusband.
And that means, you know, thatwe choose that I do that, but he
has taken on some roles thatused to be documentary, a fair
play.
(51:20):
Ooh, so good would be a greatresource for people.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
I love that you said that.
Again, this is like coming backto that whole idea of
relationship agreements.
Yeah.
That, that book, and there's nowa documentary where they kind of
talk about the same thing.
Um, it is a great conversationstarter for agreeing on some of
(51:43):
those things involving domesticand emotional labor within the
house.
Yeah.
That often we just kind of fallinto.
Yeah.
Totally.
It's like, wait, you're alwaysdoing the dishes and you're
always like doing the yard workand, but do you actually, like,
are you okay with that?
Do you like doing that stuff?
You know, if you got to justlike start over and pick from
(52:04):
scratch what you wanted to doaround the house.
Yeah.
And that's the thing that wejust never are told.
We can start over and pick fromscratch, start over from scratch
and choose whenever we want,whenever we want.
I also just want to give a shoutout to the book platonic.
Um, it's really opened my eyes.
To the importance thisrelationship hierarchy agreement
(52:27):
that, you know, you and I havebeen talking about and how
friendship is such a often muchmore enduring.
Yes.
I've been married, you know, tomy husband for 25 years.
This year, but I havefriendships that have been going
like 30 years or 35 years.
And so, yeah, they, yeah, theyare in some really significant
(52:48):
ways.
Yeah.
So Kimberly, thank you so muchfor this conversation.
I feel like there's going to bea lot of great discussions that
come out of this.
If people want to find you,follow you, learn more about you
and your coaching for, um, youknow, non traditional
relationship help or otherwise,where should they find you?
Um, so Instagram is my favoriteplace to be on social media
(53:10):
right now.
They can find me there at theKimberly Mathis and my website
is Kimberly Mathis.
com.
And I also have a podcast calleddecisions change everything that
is on Spotify and Apple.
Okay.
Go find her there.
She's amazing.
Kimberly.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Such an interesting discussion.
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