April 8, 2025 • 41 mins
The decision to send your child to therapy seems like responsible parenting, but what if that choice follows them long after childhood ends? As licensed therapists ourselves, we're pulling back the curtain on a troubling reality that few professionals discuss openly.
Mental health diagnoses given to children as young as six or seven years old don't simply disappear when therapy ends. These labels become permanent parts of medical records that can affect military applications, government employment, insurance coverage, and more. We share real examples from our practices of young adults facing obstacles because of childhood diagnoses they've long since outgrown.
A revealing study found that over two-thirds of people who received therapy as children reported negative effects from the experience, with many developing increased stress and a sense that their problems would never improve. Perhaps most concerning is how children are routinely placed on psychiatric medications with profound physiological effects that alter their developing nervous systems.
As parents, the pressure to medicate children into compliance can be overwhelming. Schools, doctors, and even family members may insist it's the only solution for behavioral issues or learning differences. We challenge this narrative, offering practical alternatives like working with coaches, paying privately to avoid diagnoses, and exploring holistic approaches before turning to psychiatric interventions.
This isn't about shaming parents who've sought help for their children, but rather providing crucial information that's deliberately withheld from the therapy conversation. Before signing your child up for their first session, consider the potentially lifelong implications of that decision.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
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Dr. Teralyn:
Therapist Jenn:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, hey, everyone, you have been gaslit into
believing that sending yourchildren to therapy is actually
going to be a helpful thing forthem.
There is Jenny, you're a Dr.
Terri Lynn, we are yourwhistleblowing shrinks and you
are listening to the GaslitTruth Podcast.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome, all right, so this is a controversial topic
, yeah let's do it.
For some For some.
Yes, controversial topic yeah,let's do it For some for some,
yeah.
And so we thought aboutbringing this in because there's
a lot of things in real timethat are happening this year
Well, actually it'd be this yearand the end of last year that
are just kind of exemplifyingthis idea that maybe it's not
(00:36):
the smartest thing for you to dofor the long term of your child
.
Now, with that in mind, thereare some kids that could
actually benefit from this, soI'm going to give a little
caveat there.
But so you want to talk about?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
what's happening in real time first.
Yeah, let's talk about realtime.
What we see coming through thedoors of our therapy practices,
that stems from, basically,people as adults now trying to
move forward in their lives,whether it's they want to get a
job, whether they're looking toget benefits, whether this is an
insurance thing, whether thisis I'd like to get into a branch
(01:15):
of the military of some sortsand these are young adults.
Guys, we're talking about youngadults here and the inability
for them to be able to do thosethings because of seeing
therapists when they wereyounger and diagnoses that have
been put on them.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yes.
So I'm going to add in anotherlayer too, because you know, my
kid just graduated college andhe's on the job hunt Right.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So yeah, that's right , you've got another layer to
add.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I do because you said me something yes, because it's
very interesting going throughthe process.
So he's going through theprocess for federal government
work and there's a whole sectionin there on your mental health
history and it says right inthere that they could request
all of your files, all of yourmental health history, all not
(02:06):
just from adulthood butchildhood forward.
Yes, and even though they sayin there, no, no, we're not
going to use this against you,blah, blah, blah.
But really Are they really not,you know?
And I said we were talking andhe said I'm so glad that you
never medicated me, I'm so gladthat, because I'm like this
(02:27):
would just be another layer ofthe background investigation
process that he would have tofork over and explain and
possibly go to somebody like youto reverse it.
You know, because of somethingthat happened when he was eight
because of something thathappened when he was eight.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes, and I think that that's the scary part about
this is what I'm experiencing inreal time is having to undo via
psych testing and doing onehell of a bio-social interview
and going all the way back towhen you were younger.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
She goes all in.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's obnoxious to me because you've got to go back to
prove that what happened to youin the past is not the current
reality that you're operatingunder, and so it's something as
parents to think about, and Iknow there's people that are
going to be listening to us.
The goal of this episode is notto make you feel guilt or shame
(03:25):
for taking your kids to seetherapists.
We are therapists, right, andyet we're bringing a side to
this that you need to beinquisitive about.
When you have your kids,whether they have behavioral
issues when they are younger,whether the school is saying I
just encountered this this lastweek six or seven-year-old kids
that are acting in quote-unquoteneurodivergent fashions, right,
(03:48):
and parents being told look,you might need to screen that
child for Do they actually?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
say neurodivergent fashions.
Yes, what?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yes, that word drives me crazy.
Listen, there's autism.
Should we put all these wordsout there?
Right?
Parents are being told that,though right by teachers, by
providers, like your child isrubbing up against a desk, your
child is twirling around outsidein a circle on their tiptoes.
Your child is having issues withemotion, dysregulation, right,
(04:17):
and this has very recently beenhappening with a few people that
I've been working with, andtheir kids are tiny, right Six,
seven, eight years old, andthey're at this impasse of going
.
Well, maybe we should startdoing testing.
Maybe we should.
The first thing they tell youto do is to call your doctor,
right?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Oh, ours was go to your pediatrician.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yes, go to the pediatrician.
That's exactly what happens,right?
And the pediatrician thenstarts saying, okay, well, let's
do some assessments and they'llgive an assessment that you do
as a parent, an assessmentthat's done by the teachers.
Okay, it can start that way.
And the caution is, thoseassessments and those labels
fast forward to when your childis 18 years old, 19 years old,
(04:58):
right, wanting to work for thegovernment, wanting to get into
the military, coming off of yourinsurance and looking to get
benefits, looking to get lifeinsurance.
These labels, these histories,even though the symptoms haven't
been present for 10 years, 15years, for some of these people
they matter.
(05:19):
They matter, and in the wrongway.
I mean as the person doingthese testing.
I can tell you it matters in allthe wrong ways.
I don't really give a shit whatwas going on with your kid when
you were younger they do.
But I want to look at the lastcouple of years of your life and
just tell me how you've beendoing, but tell me about your
(05:39):
functioning and your real worldstuff, and that is a great
picture.
That kind of negates this ideaof I'm going to go back to that
label, because that labelmattered, because we gave you
ADHD when you were seven and wemedicated you for like three
years, and that it's almost amoot point.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
And.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I know I'm saying this like really like loose,
like bold with this statement,like it's fucking doesn't matter
.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
It doesn't matter.
How did we get to this pointthat what was going on with you
in your childhood should shouldautomatically be pulled forward
into your adulthood as adiagnostic label?
And the same thing happened tomy daughter.
So she went through some stuffin fifth grade and so when she
had her baby, she just disclosedthis to fifth grade.
And so when she had her babyshe just disclosed this to me.
(06:27):
She goes.
When she had her baby four yearsago at the OB's office, in her
chart said history of depression.
Because when she was in fifthgrade so we had moved here in
fifth grade, so she was goingthrough some adjustment stuff
and saw a therapist and allthese things and that was in her
chart.
And I said to her I said tellthem to get that out of your
(06:48):
chart.
I said that was in childhood,that was fifth grade, and she
goes.
I don't know how to get thatout of my chart.
And she's a nurse, she goes.
I don't know how to do it.
I said have them write a noteabout it or something you know.
Like this is not appropriateand it's like she goes.
It was right there in my OB'soffice history of depression.
I was like wow, because thattakes no context into
(07:12):
consideration.
History of depression, ofadjustment, because just moved
here in fifth grade and havingsocial interaction issues with
peers.
That makes sense to me in fifthgrade, not just a now you've
been labeled and that label nowis yours forever.
And so that makes me feel likeshit actually, that she had that
(07:37):
and carried forward because, asa concerned parent, again
getting the help that theyneeded.
Um, now is it?
Well, it didn't for her, but itcould have if, depending upon
where she went, impacted her inher future you know, for my son
100% impact, you know 100%.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And I think that kids who see therapists right.
And we've got a researcharticle that Terry is going to
talk a little bit about here andI say Terry because I only had
like 14 seconds to read it.
She sends me this fantasticstuff and I'm like it's just a
summary.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's not really the actual research.
But the problem I'm just goingto reiterate here the problem
isn't always going to therapy.
Sometimes the problem is thediagnostics that are required to
go to therapy and those getcarried with.
I think there should besomething that says you don't
have to diagnose a child.
You don't have to diagnose achild with a major mental health
(08:34):
disorder or when they are 18,their childhood diagnosis is
meaningless and they need to bereassessed now in adulthood
diagnosis is meaningless andthey need to be reassessed now
in adulthood.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes, exactly yes, either when you're 18 or even if
you're 30, and you're trying todo this like let's go back to,
I don't know, mid twenties, whenyour central nervous system was
finally developed.
Okay, then let's look at howlife started functioning at that
point, because just a littlebit of context, like a little
(09:12):
bit of what was happening.
You know Something?
I think that the article we hada Mad in America like context
article here that we pulled up,it talked about this idea of
kids and how honest they are inpsychotherapy Well, and whether
or not they believe it washelpful or hurtful to them, you
know Well, and whether or notthey believe it was helpful or
hurtful to them, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
which is interesting because it was a small study,
just so everybody knows.
I think there was less than 50participants, yep.
It was 45.
45.
There was 45 participants inthis, so it was small, but it's
one of these studies that justmakes you kind of go, hmm, you
know, like this is reallyinteresting.
So I wanted to read some of thestats here that they and of
(09:47):
course they're doing percentages, you know, but what anyway?
So these were surveys.
67.7 of the participantsreported experiencing at least
one negative effect of theirpsychotherapy.
This is in their childhood.
Among them, 37.8% experiencedincreased stress, with 20%
attributing it to their therapy.
(10:09):
Likewise, 38.8% reported anincrease in unpleasant memories,
with 29.8% attributing it topsychotherapy.
In addition, 31.1% experiencedan increased perception that
their problem would not improve.
That's interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
31% said that their problem would not improve and
they would believe it or not.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And that's because of therapists saying well, you're
depressed now, so you're justgoing to be battling this for
the rest of your life Some ofthat stuff.
Another negative effectreported was decreased
self-esteem oh, I see, there wego.
Increased self-esteem oh I see,there we go.
(10:54):
Yeah, there we go.
Yeah.
And study authors have notedthat while increased symptoms
such as anxiety, sadness andsleep problems were the most
commonly reported negativeeffects of therapy, the
increased perception that theproblem would not improve was
rated as the most severe.
So you're going in there andyou're making your anxiety and
depression worse and alsoestablishing a sense of
hopelessness in childhood.
(11:17):
In childhood and I viewchildhood as a very transient
time Like you are changing andgrowing and developing and new
peer groups and new interests,all these things.
Imagine going to a therapistand feeling now like you are
stuck like this forever.
There's some other research.
(11:37):
Do you remember the one wetalked about with DBT and teens
making relationships withparents worse?
Yeah, because sometimes I thinkand I'm not a child therapist I
used to do therapy with, liketeenagers and things like that,
but children were never my jam.
I stayed away from them becauseI did so many years of daycare
(11:59):
that I was just not interestedin working with young children
anymore.
But there's enough like I thinkabout.
Like Dr Phil always said, youknow, as a parent you're taking
your child to the therapeuticaltar.
Something's wrong with my childand that's how they view it too
.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So what's very interesting is kids in general,
and that's a blanket statement,but they view it that way.
I have brought this up evenwith my kids.
And going to talk to somebodyand that is just like even to go
see the school counselor it'sgot to be done in an incognito
fashion, meaning you don't getup in the middle of class and
(12:41):
everybody sees you and you gowalk out and then they see you
come back out of the counselingoffice.
It's viewed and maybe this islike a cultural thing as well.
I mean, there's factors that gointo why kids would believe
that doing this isn't superhelpful for them, and I can see
why.
In the school it could be hardbecause all your peers are
watching you go walk into theschool counselor's office, right
(13:04):
?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well you go to the doctor.
I mean, on a basic level, yougo to the doctor when
something's wrong with you, Likeyou go to the pediatrician when
you have an ear infectionthere's something wrong with you
.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
That's exactly what.
That's what it is.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
It's what it is, and even I got to go to this person
because there's something wrongwith me, even though it might be
a friend relationship thing, itmight be stress at school, it
could be something at home.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
They don't, but they haven't lived enough life to
understand Like, as adults, wecan go and see a therapist and
we can go.
I know well for some of us, forsome of us, we still think that
we're messed up and something'swrong with us, but for for most
of us, we've lived enough lifeto understand that, like I can
work through this, someone canhelp me work through this.
This is not a characterologicalflaw that I was born with and
(13:47):
I'm fucked with forever, which,again, some people do believe
that.
But kids haven't lived enoughlife to understand that the
perception of reality is veryblack and white when it comes to
some of that.
So they go into this, notwanting to do it most of the
time, but their judgments of itare very flooded of how there's
something wrong with them, thatthen they need to go and see
(14:08):
somebody.
So then you put them in asituation like that where it
could decrease self-esteem,could create more anxiousness
for them, could actually createmore social problems for them in
some ways.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, I think that's because when you go to therapy,
especially as a young child,you're talking about all the bad
shit you are.
Yeah, it was Jen tell me aboutyour parents' divorce Right Like
you know, and I was like yep,yep, this is what happened,
right?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And yes, and so you don't like sit through it.
I mean, it's you're sosimplistic as a child, talking
your way through it, but thepoint of-.
It's creating, it's creatingthat-.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Is there a narrative?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
this is creating.
That wasn't really fuckingthere in the first place and you
were just like, well, yeah, oh,wow, that is bad.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
My parents, even though they were divorced when I
was two and I didn't know thatwas the worst time of my life.
It was so bad I'm like youdidn't know anything else.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
And I know that therapy can be helpful for kids.
We are bringing this up from alens of more of just so you know
it's not as though it stops theidea of I went to therapy stops
when your child stops.
Therapy.
Records are very powerful.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Super, super powerful , very powerful.
There was a psychiatrist that Iwas watching on some social
media channel and he wasinteresting and he worked with
children and he was doing avideo of him taking diagnoses
off charts.
Okay, so he was taking them offthe chart and I kept thinking I
mean, that's cool andeverything, but it doesn't
really take it off the chart.
You know, like you're saying,it's not going to be in my chart
(15:50):
, but that doesn't mean itwasn't historic.
And so when you play the tapeforward for your child and what
you want for them and what theywant from themselves, you have
no idea when they're six whatthey're going to want to do when
they're 20.
But even that psychiatrist wastrying to do the right thing by
not having a diagnosis or thesehardcore diagnosis on there.
(16:12):
But it's still in your chart,it's still in your history, it
still lives there, it's still onan insurance report, it's still
everywhere.
And you know, and even stilllike it did when I was thinking
about the checklist for thefederal government it didn't say
do you have a diagnosis or not?
I mean it did say that, but itsaid have you ever been to
(16:34):
inpatient a therapist?
It listed out have you everbeen to see these people.
So even if you were to gosomewhere, pay privately and not
get a diagnosis, you'd stillhave to say yes, you'd have to
check that box.
You still have to check the boxand they still want the records
.
And so that doesn't even saveyou from that.
The therapist would be able tosay did you diagnose them?
(16:56):
No, perhaps that therapist didnot.
If you paid privately, which isan option, guys just so you're
aware.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
You can pay privately .
You can take your child and gopay privately somewhere and not
run your insurance, eat theout-of-pocket cost of what it's
going to cost and have aconversation with that therapist
about do not diagnose my child.
You can do that, in fact, guys,you can do that as adults too.
I have several clients rightnow that pay privately because
(17:29):
they don't want me to submit toinsurance.
Insurance requires that welabel somebody.
From a diagnostic standpoint,we have to.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
And there'll be some therapists that'll be like well,
you could do adjustmentdisorder and that blah blah.
It doesn't matter, that's stilla diagnosis, it's still there,
clients that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I am trying to undo their diagnoses on have
adjustment disorders, withdepression and anxiety, or
explosive disorders as a child,when they were eight years old.
The things we don't even callanymore they matter.
And it doesn't say majordepression, doesn't say
schizophrenia, doesn't sayattention deficit disorder,
doesn't say bipolar disorder.
None of that I do remember thatone.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It said adjustment disorder.
I'm like you have to go througha huge psyche valve like a
renew to get rid of anadjustment disorder which,
technically, is supposed to falloff after six months anyway,
unless you continue to seesomebody and you continue to
update it right Like once you'redone, it's because you need to,
like, adjust to a circumstancethat's happening in your life,
(18:32):
Correct, Correct.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
And so what these diagnoses don't take into
account that carry with you asyou get older and this happens
to us as adults too is itdoesn't take into account any of
the life changes that havehappened from each time that
diagnosis maybe stops becauseyou stopped seeing a provider
and then five years later you gosee somebody again.
(18:56):
Okay, that diagnosis doesn'tjust poo-poo go off of your
chart.
And it's that same way for yourkids, and they're changing so
much.
I mean not like we aren't asadults, but every single week
and month that they live.
You could assess their mentalhealth on a Monday and 30 days
later it is vastly different.
(19:18):
Different Just like women goingthrough menopause.
It's the same damn thing Likeyou ask me one month and then
you assess 45 days later.
It could be night and day, andthat's what's happening with our
kids is they are interactingand learning how to interact
with the environment.
The nervous systems arechanging.
Everything bounces off of them.
Hormones are changing Hormoneschange.
(19:38):
Yes everything Like freeradicals.
They may or may not take in theLyme disease they could have
from being bit by a tick and allof a sudden there's these
autoimmune issues that they haveand it looks like you've got
obsessive compulsive disorderwhen in reality you've got pads
right.
Like there's so many pieces tothis.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think for kids it's almost worse than it is for
adults.
I think so too, as far as usnot digging any deeper than this
is just a mental health problem.
I really do, and maybe that'sbecause a kid doesn't know to
ask for those things, whereassome adults do.
But I really think that kidsare being slapped with labels
(20:19):
and not looked any deeper, likeif your kid suddenly changes,
like there's a sudden change,there's a reason for that sudden
change.
It could be a lot of things,the things that Jen just
mentioned.
It could be, you know, yourdaughter's getting her period
soon, you know, um, hormonallychanging.
Or your son is hitting pubertyright now.
Like there's so many things.
(20:41):
And just the social stuff youknow with kids is changing all
the time, um, so I think I thinkthe message here is to uncover
everything else first.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
As a parent too, right.
People say, well, what am Isupposed to do?
There's so much pressure, by theway, there's so much pressure
and I'm in it, right, I've got ateenager right now.
I've been there, yeah, I'm init, and I will sit there and go
through my mind back and forthin this and the pressure to go.
Okay, it would be good if Ithink, if you had somebody to
talk to, because of course,nobody wants to talk to me, like
in my household, becausethey're like stop, you're just
(21:16):
therapizing and it's obnoxious,blah, blah, blah.
My spouse says that.
My kids say that.
I get that, I got that from mykids all the time and that's
fine.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I'm like.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I'm okay with that.
But parents will ask like, well, what should I do?
And in my mind you know there'slots of alternatives.
Is it going to be helpful foryour kid to see a therapist?
Maybe, so, as a parent, you canask those questions about how
do they get diagnosed?
Is there a way around this?
Right?
I don't want these labels puton my children.
Instead of a therapist, why notgo and look for a coach?
(21:49):
Yeah, Go see a coach.
Coaches are phenomenal.
Some, not all but the same withtherapists too, by the way,
We've had several coaches onthis show, like Brianna Cohen is
one that comes to mind right.
Yep Like see if there arecoaching services that might be
a little bit more beneficialStart to look at-.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And less long-term damning and less long-term
damning.
The other thing I think about,with therapists too, is would
therapists please stop pushingkids to be medicated.
It's like you start in therapyand the next thing you know
you're on medications and thenext thing you know you're
medicating yourself throughpuberty, through social
interactions, through life.
(22:31):
Like Jen, like, like Brookethat's been on here, like all
these people like, oh gosh, Iforgot the name the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Kevin.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Kevin sorry, Kevin Gunderson, Like you know,
medicating your way through lifeand now trying to live as an
adult right, Without having,then, all the skill sets that
you learn just by being.
Like we don't have to learnskill sets from somebody
teaching us.
We learn skill sets just bybeing and moving through our
lives and trial and error andall of these things it's like
(23:05):
who's more uncomfortable, likewhen my kids are going through
this shit.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I know they're uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable when mykids are going through this shit
.
I know they're uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable and Iwant to fix this.
I want to put an interventionon this and I have to pull, as a
parent.
Pull yourself back from that.
Reach out, talk to otherparents.
Pull yourself back a little bitfrom it because, yes, we don't
want to see our kids go throughthat.
A little bit from it because,yes, we don't want to see our
(23:29):
kids go through that.
However, there's a lot oflong-term damage that can happen
if we intervene and put them inthat way, and I got to jump.
You just said something thatyou and I had a conversation
about this, and when you justdid this call to action for
therapists to stop saying, putthe kid on meds, I recommend,
maybe meds.
I support all the meds.
(23:50):
As a therapist out there, weare taught that adding
medications is like the goldstandard.
It's gold standard right.
Here we go.
Yep, this is what you do.
You don't silo yourself in yourintervention.
You bring in psychiatry.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
More supports more supports.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
We're constantly taught that like that is the
textbook thing we are taught.
Terry and I are here to throwan alternate idea out at, at at
anybody who is even a childtherapist right now, at the idea
that what if that line ofthinking is wrong?
What if the way that you wereeducated is actually incorrect
(24:32):
and that the line of thinkingshould be medications are the
last, last, last, lastintervention, and this is after
you've done everything else.
Take a lens of that for just aminute, because we are changing
the biology of these children.
We are creating synthetic braininjuries in these children that
(24:56):
were never there.
We are stunting, stimulatingtheir nervous systems.
We are creating medicaldiagnoses, such as thyroid
problems, graves disease, thatdid not exist for these children
, okay, and we're taughtopposite of that, let's talk
(25:18):
about acne for a second.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Fuck Story of my life , jesus Christ.
Yes, the side effects areastounding.
But again, like we've talkedabout a million times on this
show, side effects are just newsymptoms emerging.
You're getting worse.
How can that be?
You just gave me a medicationthat is supposed to be solving
this problem.
(25:40):
Suddenly I'm getting worse.
Suddenly I have all these otherhealth related things and
nobody goes back and says maybeit's the medication.
Nobody goes back and says that.
And with kids particularly, oneof the biggest things you see
in kids when they're medicatedis aggressive behavior,
outbursts, all these things.
And then the next thing, youknow, they have a new med, now
(26:01):
they have an antipsychoticbecause they're out of their
minds, and now they have a sleepaid because they can't go to
sleep at night because thatstimulant happens.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
That's what we see with a lot of the ADHD meds.
Right and yep, you mightactually be focusing just a
little bit better now and youcan sit still in the classroom.
You're not flipping a chairwhen you get angry, right,
You're not verbally burstingthings out.
You're not having thishyperactivity.
That's a constant issue, right.
Maybe, or maybe you are becausethat med is not right for you
(26:32):
and then you go on themedications and you do see a
difference in your kid and youdo start to see oh, they can sit
still longer.
Okay, they're eight.
Is that a good thing?
Okay?
Oh well, all of a sudden nowthey're having changes in their
sleep habits or they're startingto develop these tics or these
(26:52):
like OCD type things that theydidn't have before.
So I went from the kid that'slike dancing in outfield and
doing circles constantly andneeding to be extra stimulated
to being numbed out and is kindof like I don't know they're.
They all of a sudden are doingthese repetitive counting
behaviors and they have thesetick behaviors that show up.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
But they can concentrate in school, so it's
okay, we're going to put anothermed on it.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Right, and so then we medicate that right.
So it's, it's, and that iswhat's happening in the body
Everybody.
That's what's happening to thekids is the natural course of
developing and getting throughthese physiological things that
are happening.
We stunted it, we stopped it,we retrained right, redid what
the brain is doing with thedrugs and is actually changing
(27:39):
the trajectory then of how theydevelop.
Their nervous systems developacross the board, and that runs
our whole body.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
That's I want to just bring in something and it's mom
guilt and shame.
And I'm bringing this inbecause I think it's an
important piece of thisconversation, because I'm saying
moms, because moms are usuallythe ones in charge of mental
wellbeing and healthcare fortheir kids Not that dads are not
, but mostly moms are makingthose appointments, taking your
kids there.
(28:06):
There is a tremendous amount ofpressure of mom guilt if you're
not doing something right andshame if your child continues to
act out in school.
There's so much and I know thisbecause I was one of those moms
the amount of pressure that wasput on me to medicate my kid
(28:27):
was amazing.
It was astounding to the pointwhere the principal looked at me
and said you need to make anappointment with a pediatrician
so they can get on meds.
And I said you do not know whoyou're talking to.
That's what I said.
And this was even before I amwho I am today.
Like this was, you know, yearsago, even before I am who I am
(28:49):
today.
This was years ago and I'm like, even then, intuitively, I knew
that I wasn't going to bemedicating my young child.
At the time, I think he wasseven, I think it was seven, he
was seven.
But the immense pressure thatyou get from all angles to be a
good mom to your child, to makesure that you medicate them.
It was interesting because whenI was I'm going to loosely call
this research for this episode,because I didn't do much but
(29:11):
Reddit so I went to Reddit andone of the things about the
subject line on Reddit was canyou turn someone in to the
police if they refuse tomedicate their child for mental
health stuff?
And I'm like, because they'reviewing it as, like you know, if
you refuse to provide ahealthcare to your child, you
(29:32):
know CPS can be called on you.
Can you do the same thing forsomebody who is refusing to
medicate their child's mentalhealth problems?
And I'm like that is a scaryfucking place to be.
Yeah, that's.
Your neighbor can say you'renot medicating your child.
I'm like that is a scaryfucking place to be.
Your neighbor can say you'renot medicating your child.
I'm going to turn CPS on you,you know, or, or, if that
becomes a thing, and then theschool can turn you into CPS for
(29:53):
not providing the healthcarefor your kid.
you know the way you see fit andI'm like holy shit, this is a
slippery slope of a conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
All I see is medicating into compliance In my
brain.
As I see these bulbs, theflashing bulbs across the
mountains in LA we've got ourbig billboards.
That's all I see is medicatingthem into compliance so that
(30:24):
they can be that kid thatmatches up to all of those other
kids.
Right, ok, now you fit.
Now you fit in here, and isthat the approach we want to
take?
Does that make sense for me andfor my child?
Is that what I want?
Are there other interventionsthat I haven't tried, such as
(30:46):
really truly looking atrevamping their nutrition?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
and taking a really good hard.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
look at, like, how much time they're spending doing
activities that may not behelpful for promoting and
optimizing the brain and thebody, right, yeah, like there
are so many options we can lookat that aren't just medication
and therapy.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Mm-hmm, they exist are so many options we can look
at that aren't just medicationand therapy?
Well, and I think one of theissues and I can go back into my
own experience for this waslearning deeply that the school
system isn't the place that'sgoing to help your kid the most,
because they're just notequipped.
You can't.
So my kid was in supports formath and reading for a very long
time and it was doing nothing.
(31:26):
So as a parent, I had to go outand hire experts to help him
get through that time of hislife.
And then suddenly everythingclicked and he was good to go
and he is living a veryproductive adult, young adult
life right now, Right.
So but if I would have changedcourse on that early or just
allowed things to happen, Ican't even imagine what would
(31:50):
have happened now.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Right, like your kid, doesn't fit the standard
timeline of everybody else wetalk about neurodivergence, like
.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I view this as like, just being different is okay,
right, like being not the sameas everyone else is okay, but we
only reward sameness.
You know, sameness is rewardedIf you're sitting in your chair,
that's rewarding.
You know, we don't rewarddifferences.
And I'm not talking about, youknow, the kid who's fighting all
(32:20):
the time.
You know, I'm talking about thekid who's slow to tie their
shoes.
That was the biggest complaintwith my kid, you know.
I'm like, give me some examplesof what you see.
Well, when it's time to gooutside, he's very slow to tie
his shoes.
And I'm like, oh, all, right,and so then we would send him in
(32:40):
no tie shoes.
Like, no tie shoes.
I'm like, just slide thesesuckers on and get outside.
Well, nope, he's got to havetie on shoes.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
And I was like Developmentally.
That's where he should be withall the other kids.
You are seven years old.
You should be tying yourfucking shoes, right, Yep.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And I was like you cannot win, you can't win.
You know, like he was set up tofail in those situations, right
so, but I'll never forget thatI'm like he's slow to tie a shoe
, get bent, what, like that'sthe biggest problem.
You know, I was just like whatthe fuck anyway.
But do you know how manymeetings we had about that
(33:18):
stupid shit?
Like it was so bad, and I'mlike this is why other kids
can't get the help that theyneed, because they're focusing
on my kid who's slow to tie hisfucking shoe, like it was so
dumb.
You want to know how I solvedthat.
This is really funny.
I want to tell you how I solvedit, because I think it's
hilarious, because you know he'sgot two older sisters.
He's the youngest of three, andthat's part of it too is like
(33:38):
you know he's the youngest ofthree, whatever, and he refused
to learn how to tie his shoes.
So this is where we're at herefused to learn how to tie his
shoes, and so I looked at hissister and I said I will give
whichever one of you $50 if youwill teach him how to tie his
shoe, like right now.
And he looked at me and he goeswell, what if I did it myself?
(33:58):
Will you give me 50 bucks?
I said sure, hell yeah.
What did that little shit do Inhours?
He's so smart.
This is why he works for thegovernment.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Now he was so exactly smart like like those, those
anti-social traits right therehell yeah right, pathologize to
the max.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You know, right there , right, like it was life skill,
life skill by the way right.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Life skill like developing at age seven right.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Right.
It was at that moment that Iwas like, yeah, yeah, like Matt,
I need to medicate.
You know, mostly I just need toincentivize you to do the thing
that you need to do.
But you know, I I feel like intoday's world, like we go to
well, and I think it's also afear-based situation too,
because if you don't medicate,they're going to end their lives
(34:48):
, and I'm like that rhetoricneeds to change, it needs to
stop, it needs to be not thereason why we guilt and shame
moms into you know, medicatingtheir kid, because it is just.
It's just not the truth.
You know, and, as a matter offact, the truth is more on the
black box warning the more youmedicate, the more they will end
their lives.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
yes, suicidal issues, yes, exactly yeah and so when
you wrap this whole context intolike what we're talking about
here, I think part of themessage is, as parents, we we
receive a lot of shame.
Shame talk like that issomething that we get a ton of.
The language that's given to usas parents, whether it's from
(35:29):
providers, whether it's evenfrom therapists, whether it's
from staff at the schools it canbe very manipulative.
And so it's about really justsitting back and trying to
figure out what is best for yourkid, knowing that if you're
going to bring interventions insuch as seeing a child therapist
, be cautious with that, beinquisitive about other options,
(35:50):
because that does stay withyour kids and it stays with them
for a very, very, very longtime.
And then, as adults, they haveto come to people like me or
Terry and we have to do fullpsych assessments to try and say
Go to Jen, she's way better atit.
But it's part of the whole storyand usually when you look back
(36:12):
through these records you seethe events happening in their
lives that caused this.
There was a trauma at age eight, there was a separation, there
was some major social issueshappening in school, there was
some bullying.
You start to look at therecords from the school
counselors and go well, yeah,this is what was going on in
your life.
(36:33):
No wonder you were acting out.
For some it's to a very extremelevel.
But if any provider ortherapist says to you this is an
issue with your kid's brain,run, run away fast, find
somebody else.
Find somebody else who iswilling to look at this
differently, because you can,you have the ability to do that.
(36:56):
The shame language tells you no.
The mom guilt tells you no, butthat's not factual.
That guilt is not factual atall, actually.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Don't allow anybody to guilt or shame you into doing
this.
That's the biggest thing.
Like as soon as you hear thatmanipulative language, you need
to go.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yep, there are so many alternate providers out
there who do so much holisticstuff that can really be even
more beneficial for your child.
And get curious about itbecause it is out there.
Are your doctors or even someof your therapists going to say
that to you?
No, most of them don't, but wewill.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, we will for sure.
Yeah, well, now I'm justworried because I'm a grandma
now, so I'm just worried abouther.
I'm like, oh no, make sure wedon't go down that road.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It never stops.
It never stops, I know itdoesn't stop.
That's a mom, always a mom.
Make sure we don't go down thatroad.
It never stops, I know itdoesn't stop.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That's a mom always a mom, I know.
So at least my older kids are alittle bit more well-versed in
this stuff now that I don't haveto worry about it.
But it was tough.
It was such a hard time, theguilt, the shame, and you got to
be a feisty motherfucker tostand up for all of that.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
You got to be tenacious as fuck to go okay,
yep, nope, nope, let's trysomething else.
And then you also have toreally step back and go.
Who is having the biggest issuewith this?
Is it my child?
Is it me?
Is it the school?
Who actually has the biggestissue with all of it?
Do you want?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
to know.
I would just quickly share.
It turned out that this was anelementary school.
It turned out that thatelementary school had the most
medicated kids for ADHD in theentire district.
And that was all from theprincipal.
And I was like holy shit.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
This is incredible, yeah, so yeah, Anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So I think we're going to wrap it up there.
Huh, I think that's probably agood spot, Anyway.
So I think we're going to wrapit up there.
Huh, I think that's probably agood spot.
Or it could go on for days.
Anyway, that's another episodeof the Gaslit Truth Podcast.
Please feel free to like,comment, follow, share,
subscribe, Do all the things.
Give us only the.
What is it?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
five stars, four stars, whatever Give us all the
stars, the highest amount ofstars Give us all the stars.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
If you're not going to give us stars, don't leave a
review.
Thank you very much, and if youwant to send your gaslit truth
stories to us, please send themto us at the gaslit truth
podcast at gmailcom.
Also, if you know somebody thatwould be a really good guest on
the show that is doing somereally interesting things in the
field of mental health, send ustheir name too, because we
would love to get them on.
So that's a wrap of the gas.
Well, hey, everyone, you have been gaslit into
believing that sending yourchildren to therapy is actually
going to be a helpful thing forthem.
There is Jenny, you're a Dr.
Terri Lynn, we are yourwhistleblowing shrinks and you
are listening to the GaslitTruth Podcast.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome, all right, so this is a controversial topic
, yeah let's do it.
For some For some.
Yes, controversial topic yeah,let's do it For some for some,
yeah.
And so we thought aboutbringing this in because there's
a lot of things in real timethat are happening this year
Well, actually it'd be this yearand the end of last year that
are just kind of exemplifyingthis idea that maybe it's not
(00:36):
the smartest thing for you to dofor the long term of your child
.
Now, with that in mind, thereare some kids that could
actually benefit from this, soI'm going to give a little
caveat there.
But so you want to talk about?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
what's happening in real time first.
Yeah, let's talk about realtime.
What we see coming through thedoors of our therapy practices,
that stems from, basically,people as adults now trying to
move forward in their lives,whether it's they want to get a
job, whether they're looking toget benefits, whether this is an
insurance thing, whether thisis I'd like to get into a branch
(01:15):
of the military of some sortsand these are young adults.
Guys, we're talking about youngadults here and the inability
for them to be able to do thosethings because of seeing
therapists when they wereyounger and diagnoses that have
been put on them.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yes.
So I'm going to add in anotherlayer too, because you know, my
kid just graduated college andhe's on the job hunt Right.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So yeah, that's right , you've got another layer to
add.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I do because you said me something yes, because it's
very interesting going throughthe process.
So he's going through theprocess for federal government
work and there's a whole sectionin there on your mental health
history and it says right inthere that they could request
all of your files, all of yourmental health history, all not
(02:06):
just from adulthood butchildhood forward.
Yes, and even though they sayin there, no, no, we're not
going to use this against you,blah, blah, blah.
But really Are they really not,you know?
And I said we were talking andhe said I'm so glad that you
never medicated me, I'm so gladthat, because I'm like this
(02:27):
would just be another layer ofthe background investigation
process that he would have tofork over and explain and
possibly go to somebody like youto reverse it.
You know, because of somethingthat happened when he was eight
because of something thathappened when he was eight.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes, and I think that that's the scary part about
this is what I'm experiencing inreal time is having to undo via
psych testing and doing onehell of a bio-social interview
and going all the way back towhen you were younger.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
She goes all in.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's obnoxious to me because you've got to go back to
prove that what happened to youin the past is not the current
reality that you're operatingunder, and so it's something as
parents to think about, and Iknow there's people that are
going to be listening to us.
The goal of this episode is notto make you feel guilt or shame
(03:25):
for taking your kids to seetherapists.
We are therapists, right, andyet we're bringing a side to
this that you need to beinquisitive about.
When you have your kids,whether they have behavioral
issues when they are younger,whether the school is saying I
just encountered this this lastweek six or seven-year-old kids
that are acting in quote-unquoteneurodivergent fashions, right,
(03:48):
and parents being told look,you might need to screen that
child for Do they actually?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
say neurodivergent fashions.
Yes, what?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yes, that word drives me crazy.
Listen, there's autism.
Should we put all these wordsout there?
Right?
Parents are being told that,though right by teachers, by
providers, like your child isrubbing up against a desk, your
child is twirling around outsidein a circle on their tiptoes.
Your child is having issues withemotion, dysregulation, right,
(04:17):
and this has very recently beenhappening with a few people that
I've been working with, andtheir kids are tiny, right Six,
seven, eight years old, andthey're at this impasse of going
.
Well, maybe we should startdoing testing.
Maybe we should.
The first thing they tell youto do is to call your doctor,
right?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Oh, ours was go to your pediatrician.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yes, go to the pediatrician.
That's exactly what happens,right?
And the pediatrician thenstarts saying, okay, well, let's
do some assessments and they'llgive an assessment that you do
as a parent, an assessmentthat's done by the teachers.
Okay, it can start that way.
And the caution is, thoseassessments and those labels
fast forward to when your childis 18 years old, 19 years old,
(04:58):
right, wanting to work for thegovernment, wanting to get into
the military, coming off of yourinsurance and looking to get
benefits, looking to get lifeinsurance.
These labels, these histories,even though the symptoms haven't
been present for 10 years, 15years, for some of these people
they matter.
(05:19):
They matter, and in the wrongway.
I mean as the person doingthese testing.
I can tell you it matters in allthe wrong ways.
I don't really give a shit whatwas going on with your kid when
you were younger they do.
But I want to look at the lastcouple of years of your life and
just tell me how you've beendoing, but tell me about your
(05:39):
functioning and your real worldstuff, and that is a great
picture.
That kind of negates this ideaof I'm going to go back to that
label, because that labelmattered, because we gave you
ADHD when you were seven and wemedicated you for like three
years, and that it's almost amoot point.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
And.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I know I'm saying this like really like loose,
like bold with this statement,like it's fucking doesn't matter
.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
It doesn't matter.
How did we get to this pointthat what was going on with you
in your childhood should shouldautomatically be pulled forward
into your adulthood as adiagnostic label?
And the same thing happened tomy daughter.
So she went through some stuffin fifth grade and so when she
had her baby, she just disclosedthis to fifth grade.
And so when she had her babyshe just disclosed this to me.
(06:27):
She goes.
When she had her baby four yearsago at the OB's office, in her
chart said history of depression.
Because when she was in fifthgrade so we had moved here in
fifth grade, so she was goingthrough some adjustment stuff
and saw a therapist and allthese things and that was in her
chart.
And I said to her I said tellthem to get that out of your
(06:48):
chart.
I said that was in childhood,that was fifth grade, and she
goes.
I don't know how to get thatout of my chart.
And she's a nurse, she goes.
I don't know how to do it.
I said have them write a noteabout it or something you know.
Like this is not appropriateand it's like she goes.
It was right there in my OB'soffice history of depression.
I was like wow, because thattakes no context into
(07:12):
consideration.
History of depression, ofadjustment, because just moved
here in fifth grade and havingsocial interaction issues with
peers.
That makes sense to me in fifthgrade, not just a now you've
been labeled and that label nowis yours forever.
And so that makes me feel likeshit actually, that she had that
(07:37):
and carried forward because, asa concerned parent, again
getting the help that theyneeded.
Um, now is it?
Well, it didn't for her, but itcould have if, depending upon
where she went, impacted her inher future you know, for my son
100% impact, you know 100%.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And I think that kids who see therapists right.
And we've got a researcharticle that Terry is going to
talk a little bit about here andI say Terry because I only had
like 14 seconds to read it.
She sends me this fantasticstuff and I'm like it's just a
summary.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's not really the actual research.
But the problem I'm just goingto reiterate here the problem
isn't always going to therapy.
Sometimes the problem is thediagnostics that are required to
go to therapy and those getcarried with.
I think there should besomething that says you don't
have to diagnose a child.
You don't have to diagnose achild with a major mental health
(08:34):
disorder or when they are 18,their childhood diagnosis is
meaningless and they need to bereassessed now in adulthood
diagnosis is meaningless andthey need to be reassessed now
in adulthood.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes, exactly yes, either when you're 18 or even if
you're 30, and you're trying todo this like let's go back to,
I don't know, mid twenties, whenyour central nervous system was
finally developed.
Okay, then let's look at howlife started functioning at that
point, because just a littlebit of context, like a little
(09:12):
bit of what was happening.
You know Something?
I think that the article we hada Mad in America like context
article here that we pulled up,it talked about this idea of
kids and how honest they are inpsychotherapy Well, and whether
or not they believe it washelpful or hurtful to them, you
know Well, and whether or notthey believe it was helpful or
hurtful to them, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
which is interesting because it was a small study,
just so everybody knows.
I think there was less than 50participants, yep.
It was 45.
45.
There was 45 participants inthis, so it was small, but it's
one of these studies that justmakes you kind of go, hmm, you
know, like this is reallyinteresting.
So I wanted to read some of thestats here that they and of
(09:47):
course they're doing percentages, you know, but what anyway?
So these were surveys.
67.7 of the participantsreported experiencing at least
one negative effect of theirpsychotherapy.
This is in their childhood.
Among them, 37.8% experiencedincreased stress, with 20%
attributing it to their therapy.
(10:09):
Likewise, 38.8% reported anincrease in unpleasant memories,
with 29.8% attributing it topsychotherapy.
In addition, 31.1% experiencedan increased perception that
their problem would not improve.
That's interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
31% said that their problem would not improve and
they would believe it or not.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And that's because of therapists saying well, you're
depressed now, so you're justgoing to be battling this for
the rest of your life Some ofthat stuff.
Another negative effectreported was decreased
self-esteem oh, I see, there wego.
Increased self-esteem oh I see,there we go.
(10:54):
Yeah, there we go.
Yeah.
And study authors have notedthat while increased symptoms
such as anxiety, sadness andsleep problems were the most
commonly reported negativeeffects of therapy, the
increased perception that theproblem would not improve was
rated as the most severe.
So you're going in there andyou're making your anxiety and
depression worse and alsoestablishing a sense of
hopelessness in childhood.
(11:17):
In childhood and I viewchildhood as a very transient
time Like you are changing andgrowing and developing and new
peer groups and new interests,all these things.
Imagine going to a therapistand feeling now like you are
stuck like this forever.
There's some other research.
(11:37):
Do you remember the one wetalked about with DBT and teens
making relationships withparents worse?
Yeah, because sometimes I thinkand I'm not a child therapist I
used to do therapy with, liketeenagers and things like that,
but children were never my jam.
I stayed away from them becauseI did so many years of daycare
(11:59):
that I was just not interestedin working with young children
anymore.
But there's enough like I thinkabout.
Like Dr Phil always said, youknow, as a parent you're taking
your child to the therapeuticaltar.
Something's wrong with my childand that's how they view it too
.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So what's very interesting is kids in general,
and that's a blanket statement,but they view it that way.
I have brought this up evenwith my kids.
And going to talk to somebodyand that is just like even to go
see the school counselor it'sgot to be done in an incognito
fashion, meaning you don't getup in the middle of class and
(12:41):
everybody sees you and you gowalk out and then they see you
come back out of the counselingoffice.
It's viewed and maybe this islike a cultural thing as well.
I mean, there's factors that gointo why kids would believe
that doing this isn't superhelpful for them, and I can see
why.
In the school it could be hardbecause all your peers are
watching you go walk into theschool counselor's office, right
(13:04):
?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well you go to the doctor.
I mean, on a basic level, yougo to the doctor when
something's wrong with you, Likeyou go to the pediatrician when
you have an ear infectionthere's something wrong with you
.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
That's exactly what.
That's what it is.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
It's what it is, and even I got to go to this person
because there's something wrongwith me, even though it might be
a friend relationship thing, itmight be stress at school, it
could be something at home.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
They don't, but they haven't lived enough life to
understand Like, as adults, wecan go and see a therapist and
we can go.
I know well for some of us, forsome of us, we still think that
we're messed up and something'swrong with us, but for for most
of us, we've lived enough lifeto understand that, like I can
work through this, someone canhelp me work through this.
This is not a characterologicalflaw that I was born with and
(13:47):
I'm fucked with forever, which,again, some people do believe
that.
But kids haven't lived enoughlife to understand that the
perception of reality is veryblack and white when it comes to
some of that.
So they go into this, notwanting to do it most of the
time, but their judgments of itare very flooded of how there's
something wrong with them, thatthen they need to go and see
(14:08):
somebody.
So then you put them in asituation like that where it
could decrease self-esteem,could create more anxiousness
for them, could actually createmore social problems for them in
some ways.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, I think that's because when you go to therapy,
especially as a young child,you're talking about all the bad
shit you are.
Yeah, it was Jen tell me aboutyour parents' divorce Right Like
you know, and I was like yep,yep, this is what happened,
right?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And yes, and so you don't like sit through it.
I mean, it's you're sosimplistic as a child, talking
your way through it, but thepoint of-.
It's creating, it's creatingthat-.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Is there a narrative?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
this is creating.
That wasn't really fuckingthere in the first place and you
were just like, well, yeah, oh,wow, that is bad.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
My parents, even though they were divorced when I
was two and I didn't know thatwas the worst time of my life.
It was so bad I'm like youdidn't know anything else.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
And I know that therapy can be helpful for kids.
We are bringing this up from alens of more of just so you know
it's not as though it stops theidea of I went to therapy stops
when your child stops.
Therapy.
Records are very powerful.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Super, super powerful , very powerful.
There was a psychiatrist that Iwas watching on some social
media channel and he wasinteresting and he worked with
children and he was doing avideo of him taking diagnoses
off charts.
Okay, so he was taking them offthe chart and I kept thinking I
mean, that's cool andeverything, but it doesn't
really take it off the chart.
You know, like you're saying,it's not going to be in my chart
(15:50):
, but that doesn't mean itwasn't historic.
And so when you play the tapeforward for your child and what
you want for them and what theywant from themselves, you have
no idea when they're six whatthey're going to want to do when
they're 20.
But even that psychiatrist wastrying to do the right thing by
not having a diagnosis or thesehardcore diagnosis on there.
(16:12):
But it's still in your chart,it's still in your history, it
still lives there, it's still onan insurance report, it's still
everywhere.
And you know, and even stilllike it did when I was thinking
about the checklist for thefederal government it didn't say
do you have a diagnosis or not?
I mean it did say that, but itsaid have you ever been to
(16:34):
inpatient a therapist?
It listed out have you everbeen to see these people.
So even if you were to gosomewhere, pay privately and not
get a diagnosis, you'd stillhave to say yes, you'd have to
check that box.
You still have to check the boxand they still want the records
.
And so that doesn't even saveyou from that.
The therapist would be able tosay did you diagnose them?
(16:56):
No, perhaps that therapist didnot.
If you paid privately, which isan option, guys just so you're
aware.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
You can pay privately .
You can take your child and gopay privately somewhere and not
run your insurance, eat theout-of-pocket cost of what it's
going to cost and have aconversation with that therapist
about do not diagnose my child.
You can do that, in fact, guys,you can do that as adults too.
I have several clients rightnow that pay privately because
(17:29):
they don't want me to submit toinsurance.
Insurance requires that welabel somebody.
From a diagnostic standpoint,we have to.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
And there'll be some therapists that'll be like well,
you could do adjustmentdisorder and that blah blah.
It doesn't matter, that's stilla diagnosis, it's still there,
clients that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I am trying to undo their diagnoses on have
adjustment disorders, withdepression and anxiety, or
explosive disorders as a child,when they were eight years old.
The things we don't even callanymore they matter.
And it doesn't say majordepression, doesn't say
schizophrenia, doesn't sayattention deficit disorder,
doesn't say bipolar disorder.
None of that I do remember thatone.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It said adjustment disorder.
I'm like you have to go througha huge psyche valve like a
renew to get rid of anadjustment disorder which,
technically, is supposed to falloff after six months anyway,
unless you continue to seesomebody and you continue to
update it right Like once you'redone, it's because you need to,
like, adjust to a circumstancethat's happening in your life,
(18:32):
Correct, Correct.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
And so what these diagnoses don't take into
account that carry with you asyou get older and this happens
to us as adults too is itdoesn't take into account any of
the life changes that havehappened from each time that
diagnosis maybe stops becauseyou stopped seeing a provider
and then five years later you gosee somebody again.
(18:56):
Okay, that diagnosis doesn'tjust poo-poo go off of your
chart.
And it's that same way for yourkids, and they're changing so
much.
I mean not like we aren't asadults, but every single week
and month that they live.
You could assess their mentalhealth on a Monday and 30 days
later it is vastly different.
(19:18):
Different Just like women goingthrough menopause.
It's the same damn thing Likeyou ask me one month and then
you assess 45 days later.
It could be night and day, andthat's what's happening with our
kids is they are interactingand learning how to interact
with the environment.
The nervous systems arechanging.
Everything bounces off of them.
Hormones are changing Hormoneschange.
(19:38):
Yes everything Like freeradicals.
They may or may not take in theLyme disease they could have
from being bit by a tick and allof a sudden there's these
autoimmune issues that they haveand it looks like you've got
obsessive compulsive disorderwhen in reality you've got pads
right.
Like there's so many pieces tothis.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think for kids it's almost worse than it is for
adults.
I think so too, as far as usnot digging any deeper than this
is just a mental health problem.
I really do, and maybe that'sbecause a kid doesn't know to
ask for those things, whereassome adults do.
But I really think that kidsare being slapped with labels
(20:19):
and not looked any deeper, likeif your kid suddenly changes,
like there's a sudden change,there's a reason for that sudden
change.
It could be a lot of things,the things that Jen just
mentioned.
It could be, you know, yourdaughter's getting her period
soon, you know, um, hormonallychanging.
Or your son is hitting pubertyright now.
Like there's so many things.
(20:41):
And just the social stuff youknow with kids is changing all
the time, um, so I think I thinkthe message here is to uncover
everything else first.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
As a parent too, right.
People say, well, what am Isupposed to do?
There's so much pressure, by theway, there's so much pressure
and I'm in it, right, I've got ateenager right now.
I've been there, yeah, I'm init, and I will sit there and go
through my mind back and forthin this and the pressure to go.
Okay, it would be good if Ithink, if you had somebody to
talk to, because of course,nobody wants to talk to me, like
in my household, becausethey're like stop, you're just
(21:16):
therapizing and it's obnoxious,blah, blah, blah.
My spouse says that.
My kids say that.
I get that, I got that from mykids all the time and that's
fine.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I'm like.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I'm okay with that.
But parents will ask like, well, what should I do?
And in my mind you know there'slots of alternatives.
Is it going to be helpful foryour kid to see a therapist?
Maybe, so, as a parent, you canask those questions about how
do they get diagnosed?
Is there a way around this?
Right?
I don't want these labels puton my children.
Instead of a therapist, why notgo and look for a coach?
(21:49):
Yeah, Go see a coach.
Coaches are phenomenal.
Some, not all but the same withtherapists too, by the way,
We've had several coaches onthis show, like Brianna Cohen is
one that comes to mind right.
Yep Like see if there arecoaching services that might be
a little bit more beneficialStart to look at-.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And less long-term damning and less long-term
damning.
The other thing I think about,with therapists too, is would
therapists please stop pushingkids to be medicated.
It's like you start in therapyand the next thing you know
you're on medications and thenext thing you know you're
medicating yourself throughpuberty, through social
interactions, through life.
(22:31):
Like Jen, like, like Brookethat's been on here, like all
these people like, oh gosh, Iforgot the name the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Kevin.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Kevin sorry, Kevin Gunderson, Like you know,
medicating your way through lifeand now trying to live as an
adult right, Without having,then, all the skill sets that
you learn just by being.
Like we don't have to learnskill sets from somebody
teaching us.
We learn skill sets just bybeing and moving through our
lives and trial and error andall of these things it's like
(23:05):
who's more uncomfortable, likewhen my kids are going through
this shit.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I know they're uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable when mykids are going through this shit
.
I know they're uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable.
I'm more uncomfortable and Iwant to fix this.
I want to put an interventionon this and I have to pull, as a
parent.
Pull yourself back from that.
Reach out, talk to otherparents.
Pull yourself back a little bitfrom it because, yes, we don't
want to see our kids go throughthat.
A little bit from it because,yes, we don't want to see our
(23:29):
kids go through that.
However, there's a lot oflong-term damage that can happen
if we intervene and put them inthat way, and I got to jump.
You just said something thatyou and I had a conversation
about this, and when you justdid this call to action for
therapists to stop saying, putthe kid on meds, I recommend,
maybe meds.
I support all the meds.
(23:50):
As a therapist out there, weare taught that adding
medications is like the goldstandard.
It's gold standard right.
Here we go.
Yep, this is what you do.
You don't silo yourself in yourintervention.
You bring in psychiatry.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
More supports more supports.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
We're constantly taught that like that is the
textbook thing we are taught.
Terry and I are here to throwan alternate idea out at, at at
anybody who is even a childtherapist right now, at the idea
that what if that line ofthinking is wrong?
What if the way that you wereeducated is actually incorrect
(24:32):
and that the line of thinkingshould be medications are the
last, last, last, lastintervention, and this is after
you've done everything else.
Take a lens of that for just aminute, because we are changing
the biology of these children.
We are creating synthetic braininjuries in these children that
(24:56):
were never there.
We are stunting, stimulatingtheir nervous systems.
We are creating medicaldiagnoses, such as thyroid
problems, graves disease, thatdid not exist for these children
, okay, and we're taughtopposite of that, let's talk
(25:18):
about acne for a second.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Fuck Story of my life , jesus Christ.
Yes, the side effects areastounding.
But again, like we've talkedabout a million times on this
show, side effects are just newsymptoms emerging.
You're getting worse.
How can that be?
You just gave me a medicationthat is supposed to be solving
this problem.
(25:40):
Suddenly I'm getting worse.
Suddenly I have all these otherhealth related things and
nobody goes back and says maybeit's the medication.
Nobody goes back and says that.
And with kids particularly, oneof the biggest things you see
in kids when they're medicatedis aggressive behavior,
outbursts, all these things.
And then the next thing, youknow, they have a new med, now
(26:01):
they have an antipsychoticbecause they're out of their
minds, and now they have a sleepaid because they can't go to
sleep at night because thatstimulant happens.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
That's what we see with a lot of the ADHD meds.
Right and yep, you mightactually be focusing just a
little bit better now and youcan sit still in the classroom.
You're not flipping a chairwhen you get angry, right,
You're not verbally burstingthings out.
You're not having thishyperactivity.
That's a constant issue, right.
Maybe, or maybe you are becausethat med is not right for you
(26:32):
and then you go on themedications and you do see a
difference in your kid and youdo start to see oh, they can sit
still longer.
Okay, they're eight.
Is that a good thing?
Okay?
Oh well, all of a sudden nowthey're having changes in their
sleep habits or they're startingto develop these tics or these
(26:52):
like OCD type things that theydidn't have before.
So I went from the kid that'slike dancing in outfield and
doing circles constantly andneeding to be extra stimulated
to being numbed out and is kindof like I don't know they're.
They all of a sudden are doingthese repetitive counting
behaviors and they have thesetick behaviors that show up.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
But they can concentrate in school, so it's
okay, we're going to put anothermed on it.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Right, and so then we medicate that right.
So it's, it's, and that iswhat's happening in the body
Everybody.
That's what's happening to thekids is the natural course of
developing and getting throughthese physiological things that
are happening.
We stunted it, we stopped it,we retrained right, redid what
the brain is doing with thedrugs and is actually changing
(27:39):
the trajectory then of how theydevelop.
Their nervous systems developacross the board, and that runs
our whole body.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
That's I want to just bring in something and it's mom
guilt and shame.
And I'm bringing this inbecause I think it's an
important piece of thisconversation, because I'm saying
moms, because moms are usuallythe ones in charge of mental
wellbeing and healthcare fortheir kids Not that dads are not
, but mostly moms are makingthose appointments, taking your
kids there.
(28:06):
There is a tremendous amount ofpressure of mom guilt if you're
not doing something right andshame if your child continues to
act out in school.
There's so much and I know thisbecause I was one of those moms
the amount of pressure that wasput on me to medicate my kid
(28:27):
was amazing.
It was astounding to the pointwhere the principal looked at me
and said you need to make anappointment with a pediatrician
so they can get on meds.
And I said you do not know whoyou're talking to.
That's what I said.
And this was even before I amwho I am today.
Like this was, you know, yearsago, even before I am who I am
(28:49):
today.
This was years ago and I'm like, even then, intuitively, I knew
that I wasn't going to bemedicating my young child.
At the time, I think he wasseven, I think it was seven, he
was seven.
But the immense pressure thatyou get from all angles to be a
good mom to your child, to makesure that you medicate them.
It was interesting because whenI was I'm going to loosely call
this research for this episode,because I didn't do much but
(29:11):
Reddit so I went to Reddit andone of the things about the
subject line on Reddit was canyou turn someone in to the
police if they refuse tomedicate their child for mental
health stuff?
And I'm like, because they'reviewing it as, like you know, if
you refuse to provide ahealthcare to your child, you
(29:32):
know CPS can be called on you.
Can you do the same thing forsomebody who is refusing to
medicate their child's mentalhealth problems?
And I'm like that is a scaryfucking place to be.
Yeah, that's.
Your neighbor can say you'renot medicating your child.
I'm like that is a scaryfucking place to be.
Your neighbor can say you'renot medicating your child.
I'm going to turn CPS on you,you know, or, or, if that
becomes a thing, and then theschool can turn you into CPS for
(29:53):
not providing the healthcarefor your kid.
you know the way you see fit andI'm like holy shit, this is a
slippery slope of a conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
All I see is medicating into compliance In my
brain.
As I see these bulbs, theflashing bulbs across the
mountains in LA we've got ourbig billboards.
That's all I see is medicatingthem into compliance so that
(30:24):
they can be that kid thatmatches up to all of those other
kids.
Right, ok, now you fit.
Now you fit in here, and isthat the approach we want to
take?
Does that make sense for me andfor my child?
Is that what I want?
Are there other interventionsthat I haven't tried, such as
(30:46):
really truly looking atrevamping their nutrition?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
and taking a really good hard.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
look at, like, how much time they're spending doing
activities that may not behelpful for promoting and
optimizing the brain and thebody, right, yeah, like there
are so many options we can lookat that aren't just medication
and therapy.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Mm-hmm, they exist are so many options we can look
at that aren't just medicationand therapy?
Well, and I think one of theissues and I can go back into my
own experience for this waslearning deeply that the school
system isn't the place that'sgoing to help your kid the most,
because they're just notequipped.
You can't.
So my kid was in supports formath and reading for a very long
time and it was doing nothing.
(31:26):
So as a parent, I had to go outand hire experts to help him
get through that time of hislife.
And then suddenly everythingclicked and he was good to go
and he is living a veryproductive adult, young adult
life right now, Right.
So but if I would have changedcourse on that early or just
allowed things to happen, Ican't even imagine what would
(31:50):
have happened now.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Right, like your kid, doesn't fit the standard
timeline of everybody else wetalk about neurodivergence, like
.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I view this as like, just being different is okay,
right, like being not the sameas everyone else is okay, but we
only reward sameness.
You know, sameness is rewardedIf you're sitting in your chair,
that's rewarding.
You know, we don't rewarddifferences.
And I'm not talking about, youknow, the kid who's fighting all
(32:20):
the time.
You know, I'm talking about thekid who's slow to tie their
shoes.
That was the biggest complaintwith my kid, you know.
I'm like, give me some examplesof what you see.
Well, when it's time to gooutside, he's very slow to tie
his shoes.
And I'm like, oh, all, right,and so then we would send him in
(32:40):
no tie shoes.
Like, no tie shoes.
I'm like, just slide thesesuckers on and get outside.
Well, nope, he's got to havetie on shoes.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
And I was like Developmentally.
That's where he should be withall the other kids.
You are seven years old.
You should be tying yourfucking shoes, right, Yep.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And I was like you cannot win, you can't win.
You know, like he was set up tofail in those situations, right
so, but I'll never forget thatI'm like he's slow to tie a shoe
, get bent, what, like that'sthe biggest problem.
You know, I was just like whatthe fuck anyway.
But do you know how manymeetings we had about that
(33:18):
stupid shit?
Like it was so bad, and I'mlike this is why other kids
can't get the help that theyneed, because they're focusing
on my kid who's slow to tie hisfucking shoe, like it was so
dumb.
You want to know how I solvedthat.
This is really funny.
I want to tell you how I solvedit, because I think it's
hilarious, because you know he'sgot two older sisters.
He's the youngest of three, andthat's part of it too is like
(33:38):
you know he's the youngest ofthree, whatever, and he refused
to learn how to tie his shoes.
So this is where we're at herefused to learn how to tie his
shoes, and so I looked at hissister and I said I will give
whichever one of you $50 if youwill teach him how to tie his
shoe, like right now.
And he looked at me and he goeswell, what if I did it myself?
(33:58):
Will you give me 50 bucks?
I said sure, hell yeah.
What did that little shit do Inhours?
He's so smart.
This is why he works for thegovernment.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Now he was so exactly smart like like those, those
anti-social traits right therehell yeah right, pathologize to
the max.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You know, right there , right, like it was life skill,
life skill by the way right.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Life skill like developing at age seven right.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Right.
It was at that moment that Iwas like, yeah, yeah, like Matt,
I need to medicate.
You know, mostly I just need toincentivize you to do the thing
that you need to do.
But you know, I I feel like intoday's world, like we go to
well, and I think it's also afear-based situation too,
because if you don't medicate,they're going to end their lives
(34:48):
, and I'm like that rhetoricneeds to change, it needs to
stop, it needs to be not thereason why we guilt and shame
moms into you know, medicatingtheir kid, because it is just.
It's just not the truth.
You know, and, as a matter offact, the truth is more on the
black box warning the more youmedicate, the more they will end
their lives.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
yes, suicidal issues, yes, exactly yeah and so when
you wrap this whole context intolike what we're talking about
here, I think part of themessage is, as parents, we we
receive a lot of shame.
Shame talk like that issomething that we get a ton of.
The language that's given to usas parents, whether it's from
(35:29):
providers, whether it's evenfrom therapists, whether it's
from staff at the schools it canbe very manipulative.
And so it's about really justsitting back and trying to
figure out what is best for yourkid, knowing that if you're
going to bring interventions insuch as seeing a child therapist
, be cautious with that, beinquisitive about other options,
(35:50):
because that does stay withyour kids and it stays with them
for a very, very, very longtime.
And then, as adults, they haveto come to people like me or
Terry and we have to do fullpsych assessments to try and say
Go to Jen, she's way better atit.
But it's part of the whole storyand usually when you look back
(36:12):
through these records you seethe events happening in their
lives that caused this.
There was a trauma at age eight, there was a separation, there
was some major social issueshappening in school, there was
some bullying.
You start to look at therecords from the school
counselors and go well, yeah,this is what was going on in
your life.
(36:33):
No wonder you were acting out.
For some it's to a very extremelevel.
But if any provider ortherapist says to you this is an
issue with your kid's brain,run, run away fast, find
somebody else.
Find somebody else who iswilling to look at this
differently, because you can,you have the ability to do that.
(36:56):
The shame language tells you no.
The mom guilt tells you no, butthat's not factual.
That guilt is not factual atall, actually.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Don't allow anybody to guilt or shame you into doing
this.
That's the biggest thing.
Like as soon as you hear thatmanipulative language, you need
to go.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yep, there are so many alternate providers out
there who do so much holisticstuff that can really be even
more beneficial for your child.
And get curious about itbecause it is out there.
Are your doctors or even someof your therapists going to say
that to you?
No, most of them don't, but wewill.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, we will for sure.
Yeah, well, now I'm justworried because I'm a grandma
now, so I'm just worried abouther.
I'm like, oh no, make sure wedon't go down that road.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It never stops.
It never stops, I know itdoesn't stop.
That's a mom, always a mom.
Make sure we don't go down thatroad.
It never stops, I know itdoesn't stop.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That's a mom always a mom, I know.
So at least my older kids are alittle bit more well-versed in
this stuff now that I don't haveto worry about it.
But it was tough.
It was such a hard time, theguilt, the shame, and you got to
be a feisty motherfucker tostand up for all of that.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
You got to be tenacious as fuck to go okay,
yep, nope, nope, let's trysomething else.
And then you also have toreally step back and go.
Who is having the biggest issuewith this?
Is it my child?
Is it me?
Is it the school?
Who actually has the biggestissue with all of it?
Do you want?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
to know.
I would just quickly share.
It turned out that this was anelementary school.
It turned out that thatelementary school had the most
medicated kids for ADHD in theentire district.
And that was all from theprincipal.
And I was like holy shit.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
This is incredible, yeah, so yeah, Anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So I think we're going to wrap it up there.
Huh, I think that's probably agood spot, Anyway.
So I think we're going to wrapit up there.
Huh, I think that's probably agood spot.
Or it could go on for days.
Anyway, that's another episodeof the Gaslit Truth Podcast.
Please feel free to like,comment, follow, share,
subscribe, Do all the things.
Give us only the.
What is it?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
five stars, four stars, whatever Give us all the
stars, the highest amount ofstars Give us all the stars.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
If you're not going to give us stars, don't leave a
review.
Thank you very much, and if youwant to send your gaslit truth
stories to us, please send themto us at the gaslit truth
podcast at gmailcom.
Also, if you know somebody thatwould be a really good guest on
the show that is doing somereally interesting things in the
field of mental health, send ustheir name too, because we
would love to get them on.
So that's a wrap of the gas.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.