April 15, 2025 • 61 mins
Angie Peacock's life changed forever when she sought psychiatric help after serving in Iraq. What followed was a 13-year nightmare on more than 40 psychiatric medications simultaneously – a pharmaceutical regimen that robbed her of her identity, relationships, and basic functioning.
"I completely got robbed of my twenties and thirties," Angie reveals, describing how she lost the ability to shower, read, or even watch TV while heavily medicated. Her medical records ultimately labeled her as having "chronic and persistent mental illness not likely to improve." The psychiatric establishment had written her off.
The turning point came when Angie was invited to share her story in the groundbreaking documentary "Medicating Normal." During a catastrophic cold-turkey withdrawal from benzodiazepines, she endured three years of akathisia, intrusive thoughts, and physical agony. Yet something remarkable happened – her brain began to heal itself. Without supplements, alternative therapies, or more medications, Angie's psychiatric symptoms resolved completely.
Today, Angie lives on the road in her camper van, traveling the country as a psychiatric drug withdrawal consultant and advocate for informed consent. Her story challenges everything we're told about "chemical imbalances" and lifelong medication. As she powerfully states: "These drugs have murdered my brain. That's what happened."
Through heart-wrenching honesty and moments of unexpected humor, Angie illustrates how the mental health system traps patients through gaslighting, creating symptoms that are then blamed on underlying illness rather than medication effects. Her journey demonstrates the brain's extraordinary healing capacity when freed from pharmaceutical interference.
Whether you're questioning your own psychiatric treatment, supporting a loved one through withdrawal, or simply concerned about our medication-first approach to mental health, this episode will transform your understanding of what's possible. Listen now and discover why thousands worldwide are rethinking everything they've been told about psychiatric medication.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Oh man, it's like I want to do the hook here, but
boy, are we having a hot messthis morning.
This is what's up.
Everybody you know what it'sgoing to be.
Okay, we're going to make itthrough this.
Here's what's going on.
What if you have been gaslitinto medicating normal?
We are your whistleblowingshrinks Dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen.
This is a Gaslit Truth podcastand Hot Mess Express.
(00:23):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
That's okay, you can tell by my audio.
It's the Hot Mess Express, sobear with us today.
But first of all we're going tobring in my book, and my
camera's not turned around inthe right way and my audio
sucked.
But here's my book.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Yeah, you can look on my side.
Look, if you're on YouTube,look on my side, because I got
my shit together this morningand Terry doesn't, and that's
the first ever, so I'm going tobask in this for a hot second.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You wrote a book.
I did.
I wrote a book.
It's called your Best Brain andyou can find it on Amazon.
And if you get a book, pleaseleave a review, but only five
stars are welcome.
Thank you very much.
That's my PSA and we're goingto bring in our guests today
because I got to get moving inthis to get my groove back on,
because we've been dealing withthis crap for 30 minutes trying
to figure this out All right.
(01:07):
So we're going to bring in ourguest and we're super excited to
have her here.
I'm going to put her on thescreen right now.
Welcome Angie Peacock to theshow.
Hello, hi.
Yes, angie is an MSW, so amaster level social worker, a
CPC but I don't know what thatmeans.
Certified professional coachOkay Is a psychiatric drug
(01:35):
withdrawal consultant, healingcoach and advocate for informed
consent and mental health.
A US Army combat veteran, angiesurvived trauma, was diagnosed
with PTSD and endured 13 yearson over this is mind-blowing to
me 40 medications beforereclaiming her health and
rebuilding her life.
Her story is featured on thedocumentary Medicating Normal If
you haven't seen that, you guysneed to go watch it like ASAP
(02:00):
where she shared her experiencein pharmacy and the challenge of
psychiatric drug withdrawal.
Following the film's release,she leveled outreach efforts,
engaged 80 audiences indiscussions on mental health,
informed consent yay and harmreduction.
Angie has held leadershipadvocacy organizations such as
Benzodiazepine InformationCoalition, intercompass
(02:24):
Initiative oh, they just startedfollowing me on Instagram.
And World BenzodiazepineInformation Coalition, inner
Compass Initiative oh, they juststarted following me on
Instagram.
And World BenzodiazepineAwareness Day.
Now, living full-time on theroad in her camper van Angie
speaks, writes and buildscommunity around healing trauma,
recovery and rethinking mentalhealth care.
She is the founder of HeartCoreCollective, a new paradigm for
supporting people in theirjourneys to true mental wellness
(02:46):
, and you can find her atAngiePeacockcom.
She'll be tagged and everythingshe can find her there too.
Welcome Angie to the showProbably the longest bio I've
ever seen, sorry, but it wasgood.
Everybody needed to know all ofthose things.
Those are important things, yes, so please welcome you to the
show.
I was trying to think aboutwhen I met you and it was I know
(03:09):
why.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
I know why, I know my , my tiktok went viral.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
My tiktok went viral, not because of mental health
but because of burning manburning man, yes it was burning
man and I and I saw her and thenI was like why is this lady's
uh viral video viral for burningman?
And then I went to her bio andI'm like shit, she's a therapist
.
Are you shitting me right?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
now, and so that go ahead.
Well, I'm not a therapist, butI was trained as a therapist.
I thought she was a therapistbecause it had msw on there,
right, so right, yeah, yeah,thanks for the clarification
she's one of us.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I was more like she's one of us, so I need to talk to
her.
So then, therapist, because ithad MSW on there Right, so right
, yeah, yeah.
Thanks for the clarification.
She's one of us.
I was more like she's one of usso I need to talk to her.
So then I reached out to herbecause of Burning man.
What a weird, weird thing.
So yeah, it was.
It was really cool because Iwas like how did I meet Angie
Burning man?
I wasn't at Burning man, butshe was.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, we, we wore our special shirts for you today,
Angie.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I've got to see this.
What does it say?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I've been wanting to know Mine's backward, though
Mine is backward, I'm so sorry.
Personally victimized byneurotransmitters.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Totally victimized by my neurotransmitters.
That's what's up.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Chemical balance is walking around.
We are.
It's like a swimming pool.
You just got to put a littlemore chlorine in there, or
something.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I need to get one made just to be sassy, that says
something to the effect of it'sjust your chemical makeup.
It's just your chemical makeup.
That's why you need that I needone of those.
Just air quote it For anybodywho is out there and makes
t-shirts.
If you would ever like toadvertise your shit on this show
and it's something that has apun to do with psychiatric
(04:48):
medication, mental health,anything in the realms that we
talk about being gaslit on onthis show you give Terry and I a
holler because we will probablywear those shirts.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I said to Jen I said these should say professionally
victimized.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
That's what I thought it said when I was reading.
It's the next one yeah, allright.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
If you're listening etsy person, make it happen, all
right, yes, all right.
So so, angie, we need to know,because our listeners may not
know um your story, and I think,yeah, primarily, I want to know
why you never became atherapist.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Like why you didn't do that.
I was hoping you would ask methat I was hoping.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yes, Because I'm thinking I wish I was you at
some point.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Because she's fiscally smarter than us.
Let's start with that.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, we'll start with that.
All right, so where would youlike to begin?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
What would you like everyone to know?
I mean, my bio pretty much saidit, but basically my childhood
wasn't the greatest.
I grew up in a poor family, soI joined the military because
poor kids join the military,rich kids go to college.
And I found myself in the warin Iraq at the very beginning in
2003,.
Lots of trauma in thatexperience.
Basically, what happened was Igot medically evacuated after
six months in theater for a nowwhat I know is an antibiotic
(06:13):
injury because we were givenantibiotics for anti-malaria and
it just really wrecked mysystem.
I started having panic.
I had really badgastrointestinal, low blood
pressure pots like stuff.
And then the day I got homeback to Germany at the hospital,
my convoy got hit and mysoldier came back injured and
then I saw that trauma and thenI just said I can't take it
anymore and I walked down thehallway to psychiatry.
(06:36):
Because that's what they tellyou to do when you have issues,
you go to someone for help, andthat was the worst decision I
ever made in my entire life.
And that was the worst decisionI ever made in my entire life
to ask for help from someonethat sits in an office and
writes you a prescription.
And then I found myselfcompletely disabled for the next
13 years on more medications.
Like you guys, 18 at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Like I could not.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Psych meds.
It was like, okay,antidepressant, anti-psychotic
sleep medicine, pain medicine,antidepressant anti-anxiety,
then migraine meds, stomach meds, hormones, like all together oh
my gosh and, oh my gosh, what Ican tell you about that is
that's not even polypharmacy Idon't even what's that.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What is the word for that?
That polypharmacy I don't evenknow what's that, what is the
word for that?
That polypharmacy doesn't evencut it.
That's like yeah, butMalpractice it takes away,
that's the word, but it takesaway your ability to even know
that there's anything wrong withthat.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yes, yeah.
So then I found myself with apost-tra or generalized anxiety,
major depression, panicdisorder, with agoraphobia, pssd
, um, like no, zero libido, nointerest in other people like I.
I don't even know what I didwith my life except read
(07:53):
self-help books and go totherapy.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
That's it so I'm surprised you were able to do
that.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
By the way, yeah, that's even seems like a feat,
knowing what the body and thebrain go through.
I mean, you had to be walkingaround drooling I had dread
dreadlocks in my hair.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I did not like practice good hygiene.
You know, people see me now andthey're like there's no way you
were really mentally ill.
I'm like no, yes, I was like asmentally ill as you can get
besides, you know, like talkingto yourself on the street Not
that there's anything wrong withthat, even but that's how bad
it was, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So to back this up.
Angie the catalyst.
The start of this was anantibiotic that you had been
given that started it, and thenthere was a trauma that you
experienced, lots of trauma,chronic trauma like every day.
So those pieces together thencreated this trajectory of you
(08:45):
going and just seeking out help,essentially for that.
Okay, when did you figure outin this process that the
antibiotics had such a play?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
in this Not until I was off and looking back through
my medical records.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
No the medical records.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Jen.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Here's the deal.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I can't even read them because, honestly, they're
the deal Okay.
I can't even read them because,honestly, they're so traumatic
to me I can't even read most ofit.
I still am not there.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I wanted to ask about this, angie, because people ask
Terry and I this a lot and I'msure your clients ask you the
same thing, right?
When I am consulting people ondeprescribing and working with
them on this, one of the firstthings that I will tell them is,
if you have it in you and youcan go get your records and part
of that for me as well, right,I recently just took printed off
(09:34):
stack, asked for them, right,25 years worth.
I said look at it if you havethe capacity to, because when
you put together a timeline itspells out so much shit for you,
right, that, like you justcause you're so used to living
it.
Then all of a sudden, you putthese timelines together and
it's like, okay, well, what camefirst?
This came first and then thiscame, and so sometimes records
(09:55):
can be helpful.
Sometimes they're not, um, butif you have the ability to do it
, I tell people to do thatbecause they paint a story.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I had a guy make me a Gantt chart which shows first
it was Klonopin, then it wasPaxil, then it was Zoloft, then
it was Ambien, then it was abeta blocker, and he stacks them
in a timeline to show whatoverlapped.
It's kind of helpful to see itthat way because it's like, but
I honestly I can't even open theemail, like I almost don't want
(10:23):
to see it because I, my poorbrain has been.
It's amazing, it's I'm amiracle that I'm like alive and
able to talk and run a businessand talk to people.
Like honestly, yeah, um, whatwas I going to say about one
thing?
Uh, I forgot, nevermind, keepgoing, you get it.
I had so many thoughts.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I had so many thoughts, just jump in, it's
fine, continue, it's fine.
Well, I interjected by askingyou the question like what came
first right and what were thetwo things that started?
So it was the antibiotic andthen these recurrent like
traumas that were happening.
So you did what you do, youwent out, you asked for help.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Then I asked for help .
Then it was a benzodiazepineand now VA illness and then the
polypharmacy began to to where,like, I didn't even know who I
was anymore.
I completely lost a sense ofself.
I lost my twenties and thirtiesBasically.
I did not have children, I didnot get date, I didn't get
married, I didn't have friendslike the basic human things that
everybody else gets to have.
I completely got robbed of.
(11:44):
I couldn't watch TV.
I don't have any culturalreference, like people always
say these things like did youwatch, you know, breaking Bad?
No, I didn't, cause I was numband couldn't you know?
Yeah, it was bad that's called.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You know the iatrogenic harm like caused you
to be more mentally ill thanthan the mental illness piece of
it that you should have beentreated for right.
So the PTSD that you shouldhave been treated for well, you
were quote unquote treated forthat caused you to be more
medically mentally ill.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, even worse than that.
I chased my tail in the mentalhealth system for all those
years Like what's wrong with me,something's wrong, and so I was
being told that waspost-traumatic stress.
So then I'm like, okay, let'stry EFT, let's try EMDR, let's
do CBT.
I've done all those fuckinglettered therapies.
Waste of my goddamn time.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Wait.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Do you know, jen and I were talking about this,
though, because we are thinkingthat when you are overly
medicated, or even medicatedperiod, and you can't do them, I
have been like Angie, if youever find any research on that,
I have scoured the wet, like thedeep, dark web of like tell me,
someone's got to do a study onthis idea.
That, like, how is it that wecan do these interventions that
are to heal the brain,especially EMDR, because we've
done a ton of research on EMDR,even got some experts in on it
(13:10):
that we know to ask thisquestion like there, how can it
actually be effective?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
But there is a piece of research on EMDR and benzos
in particular, which areindicated because people cannot
process.
They're numb, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Right, yeah, but we think, but we think it's way
more than that.
We even think it's like ageneral SSRI will not allow you
to do that, and the the waypeople talk about it is, but you
know we need these things toget stable so you can then do
the work, and I'm like I'm sofucking tired of hearing that.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I am tired of hearing that.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, you know, so even more, the more if you, if
you want to go on the therapybent.
I went to therapy, you know.
I went to train to be atherapist.
Okay, and I, I'm looking atthat from like, I'm a critical
patient perspective while I'm insocial work school and what I
noticed is all these letteredtherapies are in your
therapist's mind and they're notwith you and present and
(14:01):
listening to you.
They're thinking about oh, isthis attachment theory?
Oh, what if it's?
You know this bullshit in theirhead.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Let's label it.
Label, label, label.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yes, it's preventing you from being with me.
Right now.
You're thinking about what'swrong with me.
Stop that and just be with meas a human being, please.
Yes, so yes, reason number onewhy I'm not a therapist there's
(14:29):
more than one reason, Angie.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh, there's tons, there's millions.
Oh, maybe we shouldn't havecalled this why I won't be.
If I could rewind time, Iprobably wouldn't be a therapist
either.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
We did a whole episode on all the harm we
caused and the 30 biggest thingswe said to people that caused
them harm.
And then we went on Mad inAmerica and and did their
podcast and talked about thatand on another one I need to go
listen to those.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Okay, I'll listen to that.
Listen to the dirty 30, listento the dirty 30.
Cause.
Yeah cause.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
we literally call ourselves out for all the stupid
shit and the manipulativelanguage and the harm that we
have caused, and we're laughingabout it now, but it's very
serious.
We didn't know, though, at thetime like when you're trained,
you don't know that this isharmful to people.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
This is what I share.
Can I share?
Yes, okay, here we go.
Uh, let's, where do I begin?
Um, that's, it's not possiblefor you to have PSSD.
You need to lose weight, um,and then your libido will come
back, okay, the another.
Another one was uh, no, medsdon't do that.
(15:32):
Um, this is your post-traumaticstress disorder.
Uh, when I had a lapse in PSSD,I had like some of the feeling
come back.
A therapist told me you must'vebeen sexually abused.
So maybe you need to do work onthat.
What that's not.
Yeah, here's another one.
When I was in benzo withdrawal,my psychiatrist wrote in my
record patient believes she's inbenzodiazepine withdrawal and
that brings her comfort.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Um, yeah, let's blow these people up.
You got what.
I got names.
Blow this shit up.
Angie, like what's his name?
Who?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
should we be tagging?
Who should we be tagging?
Who should we be tagging onsocial media right now?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
we're gonna make like a doctor website and just
review all of them oh, there is.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
There is my god, there is one that's out there,
oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I had a therapist laugh at me one time because I
told her I took extra tramadolbecause I didn't feel good and
she's like, why would you dothat?
And she started giggling andthen she was grossly
unprofessional and unhygienic,let me just put it that way.
And I was looking at her likeyou're laughing at me.
Look at you, you're a mess.
Why would I take any advicefrom you in the first place?
(16:35):
You know um horrible thingsthat you know.
Let's try another therapy.
I think you need to go to ptsdinpatient.
You know?
Uh, it's all over my record.
It says chronic and persistentmental illness not likely to
improve.
Chronic and severe Take medsfor the rest of your life Angie.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Was the context that you received these services all
through the VA?
No, both, so all over the board.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Yeah, so I was in the VA system, but I also had
civilian providers and they bothbasically signed off on each
other's bullshit.
And not once, not once I saidthis in the film, not once.
You know, I'm going to all thistherapy.
I was very emotional Neuroemotional is what we call it now
Like like everything felt likea crisis, Like I just like
couldn't handle my own feelingsbecause I was a fucking mess.
And not once did a doctor say,or a therapist, especially one
(17:23):
that I saw because what aretherapists taught?
You know, we can look at yourcontext, but don't talk about
the meds and that's none of yourbusiness, and don't practice
medicine.
If one person would have donethat, you would have saved my
fucking life from all the painthat I had to endure, you know.
But no, that we're not allowedto talk about that because we're
(17:45):
therapists.
Get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I have a huge argument with that too, because
I'm like we are the eyes andears of psychiatry.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Honestly.
You are with me.
Yeah, you guys are with me fourhours a month and they're with
me for eight minutes.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah.
Every six months or threemonths or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, or two months, yes,exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
How did this roll you into medicating normal then?
How did that idea come to?
How did that come to fruitionfor you?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
basically, what happened was I, I guess.
When I was on the 18 meds I meta psychiatrist.
He said who put you on all this?
He took me off 10 overnight ina psych ward and I hallucinated
oh my god yeah and complete.
I literally saw people walkingdown the hallway with no heads
and told the nurses like I amseeing dead people.
(18:33):
And uh, they kept me in thehospital for like 45 days.
Then I get out and it took meanother 10 years to deprescribe
the rest and most of it was notdone correctly.
So I tapered some balls inmyself for two and a half years
and then I got down to twobenzos and I changed doctors and
I said I want off this shit.
I like put both the bottles onhis desk.
And I said I want off this shit.
I like put both the bottles onhis desk.
(18:53):
And I was like I want off ofthis.
And he goes.
Well, you shouldn't be on twobenzos in the first place.
So pick one.
So he cold turkeys me off oneand puts me on the second.
I was on Ativan three, threemilligrams a day.
So then I start tapering theAtivan.
I get to about two years oftapering and then he told me to
make a cut from 1.25 milligramsto one milligram and it was just
(19:15):
too much.
It shocked my system, yep.
And then I didn't know what washappening.
I start like having likeconvulsions while I'm trying to
fall asleep and, um, I go to theemergency room like three times
in a week, and the doctors arelike, stop doing that, you're
not dying.
Just updose on your Benzo.
So I up up dose like three daysin a row and that third pill, I
(19:35):
stuck it in my mouth and I waslike I can't do this, like this
is poisoning me, that's what andlisten, I am not telling anyone
to cold turkey.
Okay, this is what happened tome.
Do not cold turkey.
A benzo, please.
You could die from that.
Okay, so I go to the hospital.
Well, I go to the hospital.
Well, so then I'm standing inmy kitchen I'm sorry to be
graphic, trigger warning, press,mute, whatever you need to do
but I'm standing in my kitchencutting carrots to make a pot
(19:58):
roast and I wanted to stabmyself.
And I was like what the fuckjust happened?
Because I am not, I was in themilitary.
We don't play with knives, weplay with guns.
So I'm like why am I havingthis thought about a knife?
I'm not into that.
So it was like a very foreign,scary thought to me.
And then I got really reallysuicidal, like really fast, and
I'm looking at my life.
(20:18):
I'm like a 4.0 student, I'm astatistics tutor at Washington
university in St Louis.
I'm like why am I suicidal?
There's no reason to.
I'm about to graduate in like ayear and a half and I'm like
something is wrong, but I didn'tknow.
What I didn't know was the meds.
I didn't know it was the taper.
I didn't know nothing.
Okay, so, and I'm a psychologystudent, um, so I?
(20:39):
I call my sister.
I said you need to come watchthe dog.
I can't do this.
I need to go to the hospital.
I go check in the hospital.
I tell them this is anxiety.
Medicine is obviously notworking.
I'm more anxious than I've everbeen.
So they put they check me in.
On Monday morning the residentcame in and I said am I going to
experience any withdrawal?
And listen what he said to me.
(21:00):
He said you might hear voicesand they might say your name.
That's what he said to me andI'm like, okay, yeah, it doesn't
make any sense, I don't, that'swhat he said to me, so so.
So then I get I think it was0.25 milligram at like 10 AM and
(21:20):
then at 2 PM I got another 0.25and then I was cold turkied and
then the rest of the week I satthere playing puzzles in the
psych ward, talking to thenurses and listening for my
voice, like is anybody saying myname?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
mean like what's happening?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I'm waiting for the side effect to happen.
I was gonna laugh.
It's so asinine, like I just,yeah, it's so, it's so acid.
I sometimes like we just laughbecause it's like, how else do
you even react to, to this like?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
yeah.
So then Friday comes along andthe doctor says well, we don't
want to keep you another weekend, it would be counterproductive,
so we can go ahead and checkyou out.
So I remember leaving thehospital thinking these people
thought I was addicted to that.
Ha ha, ha.
Cause I wasn't, I knew that Iwas tapering.
I went off of this shit.
I'm not addicted to this in thetraditional sense.
So I drive home that nextmorning I went to the gym.
(22:08):
The next, uh, I ordered a pizzaand then I start eating the
pizza and I'm like, why doesthis taste weird?
It's like really salty.
I can taste all the flavors inthe sausage.
Something is wrong.
The next morning I wake up.
I'm sensitive to light, tosound, everything.
It was like, boom the hell, thegates of hell opened and um,
(22:29):
Did you hear your name?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Not yet.
I never did Not yet.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I, um, did you hear your name?
Not, yet.
I never did not yet.
Okay, okay, no, I heard lots ofother shit, though I did anyway
.
So then that plunged me into thenext three and a half years
fighting for my fucking life.
I had akathisia.
I had homicidal and suicidalthoughts 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, like kill yourself,kill yourself, you're gonna die
, you're dead to die, you'redead, you're going to have a
stroke, you're going to have aseizure.
That was my intrusive thoughtsfor three and a half years I
couldn't stand up to shower.
For two and a half I could notread, I didn't speak.
For six months I could not evenread a comment or a Facebook
(23:06):
post, or I just like disappeared.
And my best friend was like Isaid I'm mentally ill, take me
back to the hospital.
I said call Wounded WarriorProject, tell them to sell all
my stuff and put me in a home.
I'm not coming out of this.
This is like next level hell.
I really thought I was likeschizophrenic or something like
overnight Like this is from thebenzo.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
This is like the very last end of you.
Got through all these otherdrugs, right, and we're going to
cold turkey off a quote unquotelow dose of a benzo Yep, okay.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, I would argue, it's from all of them, and this
was the last straw, I know, butthis is the shit, people say to
us right, they're just like andit can't be from that thing, or
there's no way someone couldhave a reaction like that from
getting off of one medicationwhen in reality it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It's the whole story.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
So, yeah, carry on and then that doctor you know
said maybe it's ms um.
The therapist at the hospitalsaid uh, we're missing something
because I was reporting mysymptoms.
They tried to give me acttherapy and watch my thoughts
fly.
But I'm like my thoughts aretelling me to kill people.
What the fuck do you mean?
Watch them float by?
Um, I've even had someone inour movement tell me you know
(24:16):
this stuff, it was in you.
No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
No like they're saying, you were a homicidal
person.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Is that like well, I even had one person who writes
about akathisia.
Tell me um, you know you werein the military, so this stuff
was inside of you.
I'm like like, no, it wasn't.
I was in a war zone and I didn'teven have these thoughts.
Okay, so those are moregaslighting.
If we're on that topic, no,these chemicals are that
dangerous.
It changes the nature of yourthought and thank God I knew
(24:44):
it's got to be the drug.
Yeah, yeah, people that don'tknow the drug, that's when
people are crazy and do stuff inthe world.
Thank God I didn't do that.
Okay, I'm lucky, because it waslike inches away sometimes.
Um, so anyway, I fought for mylife for the next three and a
half years let's just put itlike that.
Um, but during that process Ithink I was like 10 months off
(25:05):
the filmmakers found me on aFacebook group and they messaged
me and said do you want to bein a movie about this?
And I said no, because I'dalready been in three
documentaries aboutpost-traumatic stress and
warriors coming home and traumaand blah, blah, blah, and I was
kind of like a poster girl forPTSD and getting help, so I did
my own set of gaslighting.
Okay, other people are tellingpeople to get treatment and all
this other crap.
(25:25):
So then they flew to St Louisand basically begged me to be in
the film and I was like, okay,basically begged me to be in the
film and I was like, okay, Iguess.
And then when I dropped thefilmmaker off at her hotel, I
thought, well, shit, now I can'tkill myself because I have to
tell this story, because if Idie I don't want them to like
say at the end of the movie likeoh, angie was such a great
person but she ended.
She ended her life.
So like I had, this illness wasso bad yeah so I had to stay
(25:50):
alive for the movie and andbecause I was mad and I was like
if I die, everybody's going tosay, oh, she was mentally ill.
We tried to help her.
She's so disgruntled, she'ssuch a dysfunctional veteran,
you know, poor thing.
We tried and I was like, no,that's not what's happening.
These drugs have fuckingmurdered my brain.
That's what happened.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, god, I just didn't take a minute I'm like
holy shit, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Well, no, because I'm .
Speaker 2 (26:20):
You've been through the ringer and I'm just thinking
, like all the thoughts that youhad, though like you had the
right thoughts like I am notgonna let anybody fucking win.
Nobody's gonna win.
I'm not gonna take my lifebecause I'm the only one who'll
lose, you know.
And then they win again andyour story still can't be told
in the way that you want to tellit.
You know, you're still not incontrol of your story here.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
No, I mean, let's be real, even in the film.
The film is like eight minutesof my life edited.
It's not the whole story ofwhat happened.
If anything, it looks happierthan it actually was in real
life, like it's kind of scriptedto make you feel hopeful at the
end and I was still fighting,you know yeah it's.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I don't think there is a way in a film, I don't
think there is a way to in afilm, or even really good words
for you to describe what you'regoing through like right.
I don't think words or a filmcan do it justice.
Period.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
No, you know, and I'm writing a book now so I can
tell my own story in my own way,but even that is like hard to
explain, like you know,therapist jen, like the symptoms
that you have from thisexperience, there's no even
language for it like I can'teven explain what my body was
doing.
It was like a torture chamberand I was stuck in there and my
soul left my body and I was likebeing haunted and the
(27:35):
dimensions were open and allkinds of shit, like it was nuts.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It's.
It's almost like an alternatereality and it's not like you're
worried.
I don't worry about trying tolike think that people don't
believe me, because I know thepeople that know me well know
that I'm going through some shit, right, but the ability to try
to describe it to them.
This happened a couple of daysago with my husband and I had to
call him when I was drivinghome from a dinner with some
friends and I had to pull thecar over and he's like tell me
(28:01):
what's happening to you.
And I'm like it's like I'm outof my body looking at myself,
but it's a whole nother worldthat's happening and I hear
things, but not in reality.
They're in me, outside of mybody, and I'm trying to explain
all this to him and he's on thephone just like, okay, what do
you need?
And I'm like I don't know whatI need, but it's hard to
(28:23):
actually describe it to people.
And then sometimes, once in awhile, in a textbook you'll read
something and you'll go oh okay, that's okay.
(28:45):
Right there.
That might be it right there,how they just said it, but it's
very subjective.
It's need them on board to beable to go hey, I need a liquid
of this now.
Hey, I need this Right, and Idon't know.
For everyone listening, thebest bang for my buck I got was
when I would describe stuff thatwasn't helpful to them, but
when I put publications in frontof them like the deprescribing
manual.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I tried that.
They laughed at me with that.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I mean, that's that actually?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
helped, but that's because, angie, I think they
looked at you differently.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I think your record painted you as this person
Always sick, you will always besick, right, and mine doesn't
have quite that to thatbackground.
I don't have that right.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
And we just need to get her to a level of acceptance
that this is her life.
You know what I mean.
That kind of thing I keepthinking about.
There was several years ago,probably six, seven years ago I
had someone from, a client fromthe came from the VA and I had
them bring in their medicationsand I had never seen it was a
benzodiazepine and some type ofopiate pain killer thing.
(29:47):
Right, I had never seen a jug,a prescription jug.
It was a jug.
It wasn't just a big orangebottle, it was literally a jug
with a thing on the top.
And yeah, and I'm like I havenever for those two types of
medication particularly, andthat wasn't that long ago, and I
(30:10):
remember sitting there going.
Everything that you'reexperiencing right now is
because of what's in those jugs.
Like that was it, but at thetime this person didn't want to
hear that right.
Like no, that can't be right.
Like you're the only one who'stold me that.
Like you're talking about.
Well, if only somebody wouldhave said something to me, I
don't know that you would havebelieved them, you know, because
everyone else was sayingsomething completely different
(30:33):
yeah, you know, but I think thatyou were even saying something
completely different yeah, Ithought they were.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
They saved my life and I could not function without
them and I can't go to schoolunless I take this because my
anxiety is so bad.
But it was coming, thatdysregulation was coming from
the drugs I was on, right right.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I don't think most people realize that, especially
with benzodiazepines, that thelonger you're on this, the worse
anxiety you're going to have.
Yeah, and I call it suicidalanxiety because there comes a
point I've seen many clientsthat have been on benzos for
decades and they become anxiousand suicidal and like this is a
(31:10):
result of the medication.
This is not you.
This is what's being put intoyou.
You know, and they don't wantto hear that either.
Like so, but before we, beforewe started recording, we were
talking about being spellbound.
You know like this, this ideathat you don't know what's going
on inside of you and, plus,you're also doing all the things
that people are telling you todo go get these therapies, do
(31:32):
this, get help for yourself,like all these things.
And that turned out to be theworst thing that you could have
done for yourself, unfortunatelyyes.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yes, so I lost.
I lost about 20 years to that.
18 years on disability yeah,altogether about 20 years.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So how'd you get to where you are now, angie, with
what you're doing, travelingacross the country, speaking how
?
Speaker 3 (31:57):
did this start?
Let's change this.
Let's, let's stir this boat ina different direction.
Okay, so basically the filmcame out in 2019.
I asked them I begged themplease do not let it come out
until I'm out of school.
So I went to a master's programum and social work while I was
in the heat of coming out oflike the acute period and still
(32:18):
very brain damaged, and Ithought, okay, if I go to school
and I stay around people thatwill keep me in reality long
enough to and I will use this as, like, brain injury rehab.
That's literally how I lookedat school.
Okay, so then I graduate schooland then they released the film
, and then they wanted me to flyeverywhere.
And I was like I can't fly, Ican't be in a stimulating
environment like this.
So I was like, if I get an RV,can you take, can you like help
(32:42):
me?
You know, pay for gas here andthere in between events or
something.
And they said, sure.
So then it was my apartmentwent up in rent, I was
graduating school and all myfriends were getting these
agency jobs for thirty thousanddollars of social workers paying
for their own supervision.
I was like I'm not doing that,no see, I told you, fiscally
smarter than us?
yes, you are not gonna do that,we're not doing that.
(33:03):
Okay, I'm not gonna work infoster care, and you know no.
So, um, and then the film cameout.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
This is covid time, right before also right, yeah,
so I literally drive frommissouri.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I did a film screening in el paso and austin,
dallas, phoenix, and then Imake it to ucla and we're about
to have a big screening with kimwetzak and bomb headland, which
they sue manufacturers ofpharmaceuticals.
And then boom, ucla closes downand everything is over.
And now I'm like shit, I'm onthe road, I have no furniture or
any place to go.
(33:35):
Well, I guess we're going todrive to Maine during the
pandemic.
So long story short isbasically I use van life.
This is like my healingincubator.
It like shielded me from theoutside world long enough to
help me heal, but it also likeforced me to like re-socialize
and run errands for myself andlike yeah right.
(33:56):
I couldn't even drive like 20minutes from my house for years,
you know, yes, so I just kindof used it as like a healing
modality.
I get on my own terms, like Idon't want anybody telling me
how to fix agoraphobia.
Let me figure it out yeah, sickof everyone's interpretation.
So I took healing out into theworld.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
There you go reclaiming your personal agency
is what you did that washappening the whole time.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Actually like for somebody to have the awareness
that, nope, this is the drugs.
Nope, this is the drugs.
Like this whole entire time foryou to still have that voice
inside of you telling you that.
I think that's a huge, powerfulchange maker for people.
When you lose the ability tointernally reflect and believe
things that other people aretelling you can't be true.
Like I think that's when we gethelpless, when we give up, when
(34:40):
we stop pushing right.
Like is that trickled throughyour story?
Like no, it's not, it's not me.
I am not mentally ill foreverand ever.
Amen, like this is from all ofthese medications.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah, and I think that took me probably a year to
figure out.
Like I just knew that medsturned on me and now I'm off of
them.
And now I know I cannot go backto psychiatry to tell them what
I'm thinking, cause if I tellthem that my rights are gone
immediately and I knew, if Itell them even that I'm suicidal
they're going to put me back inthe freaking psych ward back
ons.
And I'm not I.
I knew intuitively if you putone more drug on this, I am dead
(35:15):
.
That's it, I'm done.
So.
I was like I don't know if I'mgonna heal from this or I'm
gonna die from this, but I'm,I'm not gonna hurt myself if I
can help it and we'll just seewhat happens.
And my brain did heal.
I did not use supplements, Idid not do tms.
I did not do TMS, I did notmicrodose anything, I just left
it the fuck alone.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
And it figured it out .
What Wait, the brain can healitself.
Holy shit.
We've only been preaching thatforever, Terry and I.
What?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
It's not broke.
And isn't it such a miraclethat my mental illness just
disappeared?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Look at that Shocker, unless you have an alternate
personality right now and you'retraveling this world in this
van, I mean that's becauseeverybody I meet now says, angie
, you're one of the mostgrounded normal people I know.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
You're like I live in a van, Just kidding.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I have a.
I have a real about that.
Is it me?
How is it that this silly girlin a van who gets naked and goes
to Hot Springs and Burning manknows more about deep diving
than the average psychiatrist?
What the fuck world do I livein?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
What is the world that you live in?
That's the thing.
What is the world that we livein that there is still so much
pushback about this idea ofdeprescribing?
I?
Mean, I'm sure you get it allthe time.
Still, angie, I'm sure you hearthings like meds, save lives.
You know how dare you talk?
About this stuff, how dare.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
No, I just honestly like I kind of keep a low
profile, like on social mediaand stuff.
I could probably do a lot moreand I'm I'm kind of lazy.
But also the people that I workwith, like let me just briefly
say this that I have like aninternational coaching practice.
I see people all over the worldat all stages of deprescribing.
I have tapering support groups.
I've protracted, I havecaregiver, I have other coaches
(37:00):
that work underneath me.
We are so deep helping peoplenot end their life.
I don't have time to entertainthe people that don't believe us
.
I don't give a fuck what theythink.
I come sit with me for a day.
I'll put a seat right next tome and you can watch this all
day.
The stories that I hear are sotraumatic.
The amount of pain andsuffering the mental health
(37:21):
industry has done to people.
I hear all the ways in whichdoctors skate out of it and deny
it and gaslight their ownpatients.
I hear all those stories,Thousands of them.
Okay, and the way, if I couldpredict what's happening, let me
just share a prediction.
There's enough of us talkingabout this, enough people
(37:41):
sharing their stories on mediasocial media and happening to
enough people that their wholefamilies are finding out that at
some point the tipping point isover and you guys are all full
of shit and we don't want tolisten to you anymore.
And that is to the mentalhealth industry's own distress
that they destroy themselvesbecause they deny that this is
happening.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Period, that's my I agree with your prediction, uh,
and I think it's coming in fastright now it's coming in, yeah
and I think I think social mediahas been a huge um push for
that to come in like that.
Yeah, and I'm thankful forsocial media in that respect
that it's been able to to pushthis through and give give
(38:19):
people the opportunities toshare an alternative reality
story.
You know, outside of meds, meds, meds, more meds, gold standard
meds, meds, meds, whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
And there's also this interesting thing happening on
twitter where, like thepsychiatrists, they're actually
kind of critical, but they,they'll, they'll, like, they'll,
put things in our mouths andthey'll say things like well,
they're saying that that mentalillness isn't real or that, you
know, somebody shouldn't be ondisability for what they're
feeling because it's not realand it wait.
We're not saying that weunderstand that mental illness
(38:53):
is real.
I had it.
Okay, I have been sotraumatized in my life that I
understand why people want totake meds.
That's why I took them, becauseit was so overwhelming, I could
not contain the experience.
Okay, that's real, but yourtheory on what to do about that
is the thing that's not real.
Okay, that's the problem, youknow the way that we sell people
(39:13):
.
I, you know.
If anything we we do, we do oursociety disservice, because we
don't learn how to handle bigemotion.
We don't, we're not there foreach other.
The average person cannot beempathetic with someone who's
suffering.
That's why we have therapists,because the average person can't
do that, you know.
So there's lots of brokenpoints.
Let's just put it that way lotsof broken points.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Let's just put that way lots of broken points well,
I think one of the biggestbroken points is the idea that
every emotion has to be copedwith.
Yeah, like, not every emotionthat you have you need to find a
coping skill or strategy for no, sometimes you just need to let
it be, you just need to feel itand let it move on you know,
that's what I did in the van,like I was, you know, four years
(39:55):
off meds, totally freaking out,could not walk in a grocery
store and I would somehow do it.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
And then when I come out and feel like I'm literally
going to pass out and die and Iwould sit on the toilet and just
have a panic attack, I'm likethere's nothing to do.
Angie, just let it rip you knowI would cry for hours.
I would wake up with loneliness, I would just my heart would
break.
I just let it process and Ijust was like there's nothing to
do.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
There's nothing to do , just be with your feelings,
just be with what's happening,you know in one of those stupid
lettered therapies that you weretalking about in DBT, terry,
and I, like one of the I justsaid this to a client this last
week I'm having to do it myselfright now, deprescribing and I
was talking to the client aboutthe idea of urge surfing and
like you can have these emotionsand they can be so fucking
(40:38):
strong and you can have theseurges and they can be so fucking
strong.
So instead of fighting it, siton it and surf on it like you
would on a wave right Because in10 minutes.
It will feel different In 45minutes.
It will feel different In twohours.
It will feel different in 45minutes.
It will feel different in twohours.
It will feel different.
Like no emotion and urge canstay at that same level of
intensity for 24 hours straight.
(41:00):
It's, it's physiologicallyimpossible, we can't do it Right
.
So it's this idea of like, yes,sit on that toilet for 45
fucking minutes and have yourpanic attack, Let it rip.
Like do yourself some somethings, for some grounding
things that you can do.
God damn it.
Touch the nasty, like toilethandle or the floor and feel how
gross it is, but it's cold.
Like let yourself do that shitRight and just ride that goddamn
(41:24):
ride the wave right.
Like you surf it out.
And I think we are constantlytrying to fight it versus just
let ourselves have it.
When we let ourselves have it,we teach ourselves we can get
through it.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Yeah, and that's what therapists teach clients really
Avoid your triggers.
Treat your symptoms, cope withwhat you're experiencing.
They're not actually trying toheal things.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, stop avoiding all the triggers, for the love
of God, you're going to havethem, they're going to be there
all the time.
Like, sit through it.
Like, find a safe way to do itand sit through it if you can
Right Like, which I know.
Some people get all feedback onthis when I say that cause
they're like oh, they're goingto go kill themselves.
You know what?
Actually, a lot of peoplearen't.
They haven't, they have nottaught themselves that they can
(42:06):
ride that ride, that urge, ridethat emotion.
You don't have to fight it likeyeah, yeah where do we get to?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
this idea that everybody that's struggling with
depression or anxiety or anytype of mental illness is number
one disorder and number twogonna kill themselves, like I.
I don't know, are you there?
That's paternalization.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yeah, a little bit You're kind of cracky, but
that's paternalizing.
You know, like infantile Ican't speak.
Infantile Infidelity noinfantilizing the patient
because of paternalism.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Like we know better.
Stop using these big words,angie quit it.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
We treat people like children because we think we
know what's better for themthere we go because we can't
even give them the respectneeded that maybe they do know a
little bit something abouttheir life you know, yeah, okay,
anywayantilizing yes.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Infantilizing Whatever.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Eroticizing.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Infantilizing, eroticizing.
This is going in weirddirections, right now, but yes,
I'm squirreling.
Yes, but I think also going backand adding into people say,
well, nobody taught me how todeal with that, nobody taught me
how to do these things, and wetalked about this on a different
episode that we just have.
Like, where in the world did weget to the idea that somebody
(43:38):
has to teach you everythingabout your emotions, about how
to work through them, about howto just be a person?
It's not all taught.
Sometimes you're self-taught,like you teach yourself how to
get through these hard things,and that's okay, you know, we
don't.
Their therapists are put inthis position of like know it
(43:59):
all, like we're supposed to knowit all, to teach all this to
everybody.
And I hear things likeeverybody should go to therapy.
I'm like no, they shouldn't.
Like not everybody should begoing to therapy.
As a matter of fact, mostpeople probably shouldn't.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Like yes, I, I don't know like usually the people
that are in therapy yeah,usually the people that are in
therapy don't need it.
It's the people around themthat need it let's talk about
kids especially kids especiallykids, yeah do you do, do you
work with kids and teens?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
at all.
Yeah, actually, I just saw.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, I just saw a teen last week.
I love working with teens andbecause the average teen they
don't get treated like they'rean actual human being.
They get treated like they'rejust stupid or young or they
don't know anything.
And so I like, just becausereally that's how I work, is
like I'm just with you, Like.
I'm not there's nothing fancygoing on here.
(44:52):
I'm just present and I'mlistening with you, like I'm not
, there's nothing fancy going onhere.
I'm just present and I'mlistening to you and I'm
attuning and I might reflectback to you and that's about it.
I don't do anything else, likethere's no.
So when I do that with a teen,they like they're like oh my God
, I really love you Cause youlisten to me.
I'm like, yeah, nobody in theirlife even listens to them.
It's sad, you know.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
But I mean, jen and I were taught that the the best
thing you can do in therapy isjust that therapeutic alliance
like you know, building thoserelationships, you don't need to
do all those fancy letterthings.
You don't need to do all thatextra.
You don't need to be extradon't be, extra yeah don't be, I
don't think it's thinking back.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I don't think I ever had a therapist that did that
for me.
It was always interpretingeverything as illness or
something wrong or something tofix, and that's one problem with
therapy is, even now, I stillhave to like Angie, there's
nothing wrong.
Stop watching this self-helpshit.
You don't need to fix this.
Just feel what you're.
Just be who you are Like.
Who cares if you're weird?
Speaker 2 (45:47):
You can buy my book if you want your best brain to
know.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Sorry, Now I'm like you're going to dip in sales
Cause I'm like don't readanything else.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
No, read my book.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Don't read any self-help books, just Terry's
book.
Hers is okay, just mine.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Mine's the last self-help book you're ever going
to need.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah, but it's it's.
It's way less self-help interms of the therapy world and
it's more about the brain.
What you're talking about,angie, this concept is like
you're living walking proof thatthe brain itself does heal.
It's not fucking broken,because we get this a lot and we
have to really state a case forpeople to try to view this
(46:31):
alternatively.
State a case for people to tryto view this alternatively,
Regardless if you've gotschizophrenia or you've got
addiction to heroin, everythingin between it doesn't matter.
The brain itself is this organthat can heal.
So when you look at what yourbrain did, that's exactly what
it did.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah Well, even because I had that therapy
background and psychologybackground while it was
happening to me, I wasfascinated and horrified at the
same time.
I was like holy shit.
So I thought I really saw, likeconcretely I'm sorry to get
spiritual for a second, but likeour mind is so powerful, like
you don't even understand howmuch power you have in there and
(47:10):
your power to listen to it ormassage it or to back off and
watch it, like I had to come toa whole new understanding of all
of that that no therapist evertaught me.
No self-help book caught me.
I was like thrown in the deepend and you are either going to
sink or you're going to swim andyou're going to have to figure
this out because you cannot gofor help.
The help is what did this?
So I got a crash course and aspeed pass and suffering and how
(47:32):
to be with it and what wasimportant to me and all the
stuff that I've been runningfrom by taking meds in the first
place.
It all came to a head and I hadto face all of it, including my
fear of death, like everything.
Boom, here it is.
There's nowhere to run, and Isee this too a lot with the
people I work with sometimeswhere they're still looking for
something Like there's somethingoutside of myself that's going
(47:54):
to fix it, that's going to makeit all better.
What if I take magnesium andfish oil and do psilocybin and I
maybe I just need to trip onayahuasca, like no, stop, yeah,
stop trying to treat it If youkeep, that's what got you here
in the first place, you know?
Yeah, um, so I've learned a lotof lessons and and that, and
even sometimes I feel like Idon't live in this universe all
the way because, like, I'm likeliving in the suffering world
(48:18):
during the day and myconnections are deeper and I
can't really like relate to,like normal people a whole lot
and I live in a van and like I,you know I'm more in nature than
most people.
I'm a little feral, you know,but I like it's just what it is.
This is what happens.
(48:38):
A little feral, I love that.
Wait, I have a hat for that, doyou?
Speaker 1 (48:40):
oh, she's got merch I hope you have a feral cat feral
but friendly.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
I love it.
It's great my sister made methat.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Oh my God, that's so good, that's funny.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
So there you go.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That's my story in a nutshell, Anyway if you can tell
somebody, like if somebody cameto you and was like I'm
thinking about, you know, my, mymental health is just not very
good, Um, and I'm thinking aboutgoing on medication what would
you tell that person now?
Speaker 3 (49:16):
I would say I want you to try everything else, like
let's go to the root issue ofwhat's going on for you, what in
your life is making you feellike this, and can we work on
that first?
And meds should be last resortand short term, if anything,
because the risks that come withmeds are not even you can't
(49:37):
even understand them until ithappens to you.
No, like if somebody was toldme like I read the pamphlet and
said dizziness, and so I thought, oh, I'll just be lightheaded
when I get out of bed.
No, the amount of dizzinessthat I had like prevented me
from showering for two and ahalf years and it felt like I
was on a tightro rope over thegrand Canyon with a gun pointed
to my head.
That's the amount of dizzinessLike you can't even understand,
(49:59):
you know.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah Well, like like libido you said to be libido
earlier.
That's one of the first thingsthat I thought about.
Right, Like it said, yes, likelow libido, say, is fast forward
15 years and your marriage isalmost going to end because you
can't feel pleasure.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Nothing that's much more realistic.
But, jen, that's not your fault, that's your husband's fault
for wanting sex in the firstplace.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Listen, I was told I needed a sex therapist.
I was told, jen, you need to go, get you a sex therapist.
Never by my prescriber, by theway, never once was it.
Hey, maybe it's the 15 years,20 years with the meds, yeah, no
.
So you know, like that's whatthe pamphlet should say.
Like I, when it comes toinformed consent, terry and I
are so big on this, Like you are, angie like just huge.
(50:43):
I love that you had that inyour bio too, because that part
that doesn't exist.
And I like, if you got trueinformed consent and you could
weigh all your options, yourrisks, your benefits, the
alternatives, alternatives,meaning let's try these 15
things first.
Right, if people really hadthat level of informed consent,
(51:06):
OK, then make your choices.
Yeah, make your choices, butthey don't get that.
We don't get.
We don't get that.
That doesn't exist.
Our clients, the people we see,don't get that.
None of us got it.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I could.
I and honestly, like forakathisia or PSSD, you cannot
get informed consent for youcan't give it because you can't
even imagine what that actuallyfeels like, because you don't
have a frame of reference for it.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Right so it's like.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
It's like asking someone to do you give consent
to being in a cartoon channel AIcreated.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
You don't even know what that would be like.
Akathisia is also one of thosethings where, even today,
informed consent is not given,when that word is brought up
because it's only studied inpeople who are taking
antipsychotics.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Exactly, I was just going to say that it doesn't
even get attached to yourtypical antidepressants Nope.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
SNRIs, the anxiolytics none of that.
It's not attached to thatwithin research, so you don't
even get it, even though it isvery real and you can pop on any
of these social medias and seemany of us taking these meds
that aren't antipsychotics, thatare.
Akathisia is about, yeah,putting the edge right, so it's,
it's.
That's the part that I thinkneeds more work is the actual
(52:17):
informed consent piece.
Um, I feel like every time Imeet with a client, I'm actually
giving them their very firstdose of informed consent.
They just sit there like openmouth, breathing, looking at me
with this, this, and I'm likeit's because you didn't receive
this.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
Yeah Well, even for deprescribing I feel like here's
a conversation just quickly,but I don't know if everybody
can deprescribe.
I've I've met people where I'mlike this I'm trying I just try
not to project my own experienceon them but I'm like I don't
know if they have the supportand tools that they need to get
through this.
That's how hard it is.
It's fucking hard.
(52:54):
It's not, and some people Ithink you know I worry about it
Like I don't want to ever comeacross as like I'm influencing
people to get off their meds.
That's not what I'm saying.
That's actually why one of thereasons I keep a low profile too
, because I don't want on themeds that I didn't make that
decision for them.
They came to that conclusionthemselves.
(53:15):
I'm never going to be one tolike try to talk you into it or
anything.
In fact, the other day in oneof my taper support groups, we
had 10 people and one of thegirls asked why are you all
coming off?
And so we went around the roomand we said what was your?
Why?
Every single person in thatgroup group it was I don't have
a choice.
I am so sick I cannot function.
Yeah, it wasn't this.
(53:37):
I think psychiatry just thinkswe get this wild idea we want
off our meds and actually that'sthe thing that's keeping us
well, which is bullshit.
No, people are so fucking sickthey can't function and there's
nothing else wrong with them.
It has to be the meds by likeprocess of elimination, you know
.
So I that's another thing inthe media that I worry about,
(53:57):
just like people don't get it toa point Like these drugs are
making us sick, like it's notsome crazy idea that we had.
I think.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
I think there's the majority of people that I talked
to about medication.
Even when I was on it, I didn'twant to be on it.
I think a lot of people don'twant to be on it and I think
that's intuitive.
I think there's an intuitionthere.
You know, it's not just a I'mgoing to be a resistant patient.
It's there's some intuitivething that's like I don't feel
well, but I can't put my thumbon it.
(54:28):
And I know, I know when I wentto the doctor to try to get off
of it or to tell her how bad Iwas feeling, like I wasn't hurt
at all, it was just well, maybeyou need more Like that was.
That was the response.
It wasn't helped me to get less, you know, help me to do these
things.
So then you stop telling yourdoctor, you stop telling.
I stopped telling them and Iwould just get the prescription
(54:50):
because I didn't know what elseto do.
So I would just go refill,refill.
Stop sharing anything, which isnot where we want to be either,
because then doctors aren'thearing, they're like oh, you're
doing fine.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
You're doing fine.
I lie to mine all the time thislast week, All the time my
symptoms.
I gloss right over it because Idon't want to hear any of this.
You're going to say, when Ialready told you I'm titrating
off of this.
I don't want to hear it.
So, the PHQ-9, the PHQ-4, allthe questions Yep, I'm good,
good, good, good.
Do you have anythingadditionally to talk to you
about your doctor?
Nope, doing great.
(55:22):
Nope, everything's fine, allgood, yeah.
And so it creates that.
But for me it's a safety thingbecause I'm not even going to
bring this up again.
You know what I'm doing and yetevery time I'm in here, you
want to talk to me aboutpossibly going back up or on
because of the symptoms I'mhaving.
Right, but these are withdrawalsymptoms.
This is what's happening in thetaper.
(55:42):
So we start to like silenceourselves.
It's like we can't even feelcomfortable with providers, just
like what you were saying,angie.
I can't go in and tell them I'msuicidal.
If I do, they're going to lock,lock me back up, because I have
been.
I am chronically mentally illand it won't get better, and
that's in my charts, right, likeyeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
It went so far as I fired my psychiatrist at 14
months off because I kept tryingto tell him and teach him and
I'd bring him papers and I'dwear my Washington medical
school shirt and like here yougot to read this is what's
happening to me.
And then finally I had it and Iwas like I'm done, I'm never
coming, never coming back to youagain.
I literally said you're killingmy friends, I'm out of here.
And then I walked across thestreet from the hospital and I
(56:18):
sat on the grass and I startedcrying because it was just like
I'm done, you know.
And then I, literally in thatsame second, I was like Angie,
you can't cry across from ahospital, They'll lock you up
Like, oh my God, I know, youknow that stays with me a little
bit Like that's the collateraldamage.
You know, if I cry in my car, Iworry if somebody sees me or
(56:38):
they're going to come ask if.
I'm okay.
Yep, like yeah, I'm okay, getaway from me.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
You know, I don't know, we're also we're also in a
very hyper suicide focusedsociety right now.
Any emotion might you mightkill yourself, you know.
And so, yeah, you know, I thinkpeople do overreact a lot to
that and people listening tothat, no, people underreact to
that.
We need to you know, like,actually, it's okay to feel,
it's okay to be sad, it's okayto you know, be upset, it's okay
(57:06):
to be like mad, so mad you'recrying you know, it's okay to do
all of that, especially withthis.
And you know, I am going to saylike your brain is not broken in
the start.
Your brain is where it needs tobe.
However, it becomes broken, itbecomes diseased due to these
medications, and then it is ourjob as people to know that your
(57:30):
brain has the ability to heal.
To that, I look at the brainkind of similar to the liver,
like the liver heals itself too,like, if you allow it, right,
Um, there's, there's not a lotof other organs that do that,
you know.
So I'm like it's a prettyspecial organ and I think we
need to treat it that way tooand understand that I don't
think the human psyche, um, isgoing to respond well to be
(57:53):
medicated.
It's the human psyche.
We don't know enough about it.
You know, this is our soul,this is our psyche, this is what
makes us human, is our brain,and we keep dampening the
humanity all the time withmedication.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
My opinion so here's my meme.
You guys will both enjoy this,I think.
Okay, ready, neuroscience weknow less than 5% about the
brain.
Psychiatry we know everything.
Therapists, whatever they sayperfect oh my god that is a
great place to end.
Yes, merch, that's it.
(58:32):
So, as a meta commentary, isthat we have messed with the
human body with chemicals thatwe don't even understand, and
people will figure that out oneway or another.
And then you will figure outthey're not going to help you
and you're going to have to saveyourself, and the more you look
to try to fix that, the worseit's probably going to get for
(58:53):
you.
So cut your losses, dosomething safe and save yourself
that's kind of what I learnedand find somebody like us who
can just be there with you.
Just hold your hand and not tellyou that you're something wrong
with you.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
That's right.
Yep Well on that.
That's a great.
That's a great space to wrap up.
Thank you for being on the show, angie, Thank Well on that.
That's a great space to wrap up.
Thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (59:13):
Angie, thank you for having me.
That was the best podcast Iever did.
Yay, well, hell yeah.
Ladies, can't wait to have youon mine, woo-hoo, yes.
Speaker 1 (59:25):
I hope we could swear , because otherwise it's going
to be really fucking hard for me.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I know for the F word, don'tyou?
Speaker 3 (59:30):
know I won the F award in Medicaid Normal, the
most F bomb.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
Oh, nice, nice Okay.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
All right, everybody.
Well, we are the Gaslit TruthPodcast.
We are going to make sure thatwe tag Angie's socials and
everything that we put out hereso you can find that in the show
notes or in any of thedeliverables we're going to put
out.
If you want to send us your,rate us and give us only five
(59:57):
stars or six or seven, let'sgive us all the things.
And Angie, thanks again forbeing on.
Thank you so much, that was fun.
Oh man, it's like I want to do the hook here, but
boy, are we having a hot messthis morning.
This is what's up.
Everybody you know what it'sgoing to be.
Okay, we're going to make itthrough this.
Here's what's going on.
What if you have been gaslitinto medicating normal?
We are your whistleblowingshrinks Dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen.
This is a Gaslit Truth podcastand Hot Mess Express.
(00:23):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
That's okay, you can tell by my audio.
It's the Hot Mess Express, sobear with us today.
But first of all we're going tobring in my book, and my
camera's not turned around inthe right way and my audio
sucked.
But here's my book.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Yeah, you can look on my side.
Look, if you're on YouTube,look on my side, because I got
my shit together this morningand Terry doesn't, and that's
the first ever, so I'm going tobask in this for a hot second.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You wrote a book.
I did.
I wrote a book.
It's called your Best Brain andyou can find it on Amazon.
And if you get a book, pleaseleave a review, but only five
stars are welcome.
Thank you very much.
That's my PSA and we're goingto bring in our guests today
because I got to get moving inthis to get my groove back on,
because we've been dealing withthis crap for 30 minutes trying
to figure this out All right.
(01:07):
So we're going to bring in ourguest and we're super excited to
have her here.
I'm going to put her on thescreen right now.
Welcome Angie Peacock to theshow.
Hello, hi.
Yes, angie is an MSW, so amaster level social worker, a
CPC but I don't know what thatmeans.
Certified professional coachOkay Is a psychiatric drug
(01:35):
withdrawal consultant, healingcoach and advocate for informed
consent and mental health.
A US Army combat veteran, angiesurvived trauma, was diagnosed
with PTSD and endured 13 yearson over this is mind-blowing to
me 40 medications beforereclaiming her health and
rebuilding her life.
Her story is featured on thedocumentary Medicating Normal If
you haven't seen that, you guysneed to go watch it like ASAP
(02:00):
where she shared her experiencein pharmacy and the challenge of
psychiatric drug withdrawal.
Following the film's release,she leveled outreach efforts,
engaged 80 audiences indiscussions on mental health,
informed consent yay and harmreduction.
Angie has held leadershipadvocacy organizations such as
Benzodiazepine InformationCoalition, intercompass
(02:24):
Initiative oh, they just startedfollowing me on Instagram.
And World BenzodiazepineInformation Coalition, inner
Compass Initiative oh, they juststarted following me on
Instagram.
And World BenzodiazepineAwareness Day.
Now, living full-time on theroad in her camper van Angie
speaks, writes and buildscommunity around healing trauma,
recovery and rethinking mentalhealth care.
She is the founder of HeartCoreCollective, a new paradigm for
supporting people in theirjourneys to true mental wellness
(02:46):
, and you can find her atAngiePeacockcom.
She'll be tagged and everythingshe can find her there too.
Welcome Angie to the showProbably the longest bio I've
ever seen, sorry, but it wasgood.
Everybody needed to know all ofthose things.
Those are important things, yes, so please welcome you to the
show.
I was trying to think aboutwhen I met you and it was I know
(03:09):
why.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
I know why, I know my , my tiktok went viral.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
My tiktok went viral, not because of mental health
but because of burning manburning man, yes it was burning
man and I and I saw her and thenI was like why is this lady's
uh viral video viral for burningman?
And then I went to her bio andI'm like shit, she's a therapist
.
Are you shitting me right?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
now, and so that go ahead.
Well, I'm not a therapist, butI was trained as a therapist.
I thought she was a therapistbecause it had msw on there,
right, so right, yeah, yeah,thanks for the clarification
she's one of us.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I was more like she's one of us, so I need to talk to
her.
So then, therapist, because ithad MSW on there Right, so right
, yeah, yeah.
Thanks for the clarification.
She's one of us.
I was more like she's one of usso I need to talk to her.
So then I reached out to herbecause of Burning man.
What a weird, weird thing.
So yeah, it was.
It was really cool because Iwas like how did I meet Angie
Burning man?
I wasn't at Burning man, butshe was.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, we, we wore our special shirts for you today,
Angie.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I've got to see this.
What does it say?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I've been wanting to know Mine's backward, though
Mine is backward, I'm so sorry.
Personally victimized byneurotransmitters.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Totally victimized by my neurotransmitters.
That's what's up.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Chemical balance is walking around.
We are.
It's like a swimming pool.
You just got to put a littlemore chlorine in there, or
something.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I need to get one made just to be sassy, that says
something to the effect of it'sjust your chemical makeup.
It's just your chemical makeup.
That's why you need that I needone of those.
Just air quote it For anybodywho is out there and makes
t-shirts.
If you would ever like toadvertise your shit on this show
and it's something that has apun to do with psychiatric
(04:48):
medication, mental health,anything in the realms that we
talk about being gaslit on onthis show you give Terry and I a
holler because we will probablywear those shirts.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I said to Jen I said these should say professionally
victimized.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
That's what I thought it said when I was reading.
It's the next one yeah, allright.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
If you're listening etsy person, make it happen, all
right, yes, all right.
So so, angie, we need to know,because our listeners may not
know um your story, and I think,yeah, primarily, I want to know
why you never became atherapist.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Like why you didn't do that.
I was hoping you would ask methat I was hoping.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yes, Because I'm thinking I wish I was you at
some point.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Because she's fiscally smarter than us.
Let's start with that.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yes, we'll start with that.
All right, so where would youlike to begin?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
What would you like everyone to know?
I mean, my bio pretty much saidit, but basically my childhood
wasn't the greatest.
I grew up in a poor family, soI joined the military because
poor kids join the military,rich kids go to college.
And I found myself in the warin Iraq at the very beginning in
2003,.
Lots of trauma in thatexperience.
Basically, what happened was Igot medically evacuated after
six months in theater for a nowwhat I know is an antibiotic
(06:13):
injury because we were givenantibiotics for anti-malaria and
it just really wrecked mysystem.
I started having panic.
I had really badgastrointestinal, low blood
pressure pots like stuff.
And then the day I got homeback to Germany at the hospital,
my convoy got hit and mysoldier came back injured and
then I saw that trauma and thenI just said I can't take it
anymore and I walked down thehallway to psychiatry.
(06:36):
Because that's what they tellyou to do when you have issues,
you go to someone for help, andthat was the worst decision I
ever made in my entire life.
And that was the worst decisionI ever made in my entire life
to ask for help from someonethat sits in an office and
writes you a prescription.
And then I found myselfcompletely disabled for the next
13 years on more medications.
Like you guys, 18 at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Like I could not.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Psych meds.
It was like, okay,antidepressant, anti-psychotic
sleep medicine, pain medicine,antidepressant anti-anxiety,
then migraine meds, stomach meds, hormones, like all together oh
my gosh and, oh my gosh, what Ican tell you about that is
that's not even polypharmacy Idon't even what's that.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What is the word for that?
That polypharmacy I don't evenknow what's that, what is the
word for that?
That polypharmacy doesn't evencut it.
That's like yeah, butMalpractice it takes away,
that's the word, but it takesaway your ability to even know
that there's anything wrong withthat.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yes, yeah.
So then I found myself with apost-tra or generalized anxiety,
major depression, panicdisorder, with agoraphobia, pssd
, um, like no, zero libido, nointerest in other people like I.
I don't even know what I didwith my life except read
(07:53):
self-help books and go totherapy.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
That's it so I'm surprised you were able to do
that.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
By the way, yeah, that's even seems like a feat,
knowing what the body and thebrain go through.
I mean, you had to be walkingaround drooling I had dread
dreadlocks in my hair.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I did not like practice good hygiene.
You know, people see me now andthey're like there's no way you
were really mentally ill.
I'm like no, yes, I was like asmentally ill as you can get
besides, you know, like talkingto yourself on the street Not
that there's anything wrong withthat, even but that's how bad
it was, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So to back this up.
Angie the catalyst.
The start of this was anantibiotic that you had been
given that started it, and thenthere was a trauma that you
experienced, lots of trauma,chronic trauma like every day.
So those pieces together thencreated this trajectory of you
(08:45):
going and just seeking out help,essentially for that.
Okay, when did you figure outin this process that the
antibiotics had such a play?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
in this Not until I was off and looking back through
my medical records.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
No the medical records.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Jen.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Here's the deal.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I can't even read them because, honestly, they're
the deal Okay.
I can't even read them because,honestly, they're so traumatic
to me I can't even read most ofit.
I still am not there.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I wanted to ask about this, angie, because people ask
Terry and I this a lot and I'msure your clients ask you the
same thing, right?
When I am consulting people ondeprescribing and working with
them on this, one of the firstthings that I will tell them is,
if you have it in you and youcan go get your records and part
of that for me as well, right,I recently just took printed off
(09:34):
stack, asked for them, right,25 years worth.
I said look at it if you havethe capacity to, because when
you put together a timeline itspells out so much shit for you,
right, that, like you justcause you're so used to living
it.
Then all of a sudden, you putthese timelines together and
it's like, okay, well, what camefirst?
This came first and then thiscame, and so sometimes records
(09:55):
can be helpful.
Sometimes they're not, um, butif you have the ability to do it
, I tell people to do thatbecause they paint a story.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I had a guy make me a Gantt chart which shows first
it was Klonopin, then it wasPaxil, then it was Zoloft, then
it was Ambien, then it was abeta blocker, and he stacks them
in a timeline to show whatoverlapped.
It's kind of helpful to see itthat way because it's like, but
I honestly I can't even open theemail, like I almost don't want
(10:23):
to see it because I, my poorbrain has been.
It's amazing, it's I'm amiracle that I'm like alive and
able to talk and run a businessand talk to people.
Like honestly, yeah, um, whatwas I going to say about one
thing?
Uh, I forgot, nevermind, keepgoing, you get it.
I had so many thoughts.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I had so many thoughts, just jump in, it's
fine, continue, it's fine.
Well, I interjected by askingyou the question like what came
first right and what were thetwo things that started?
So it was the antibiotic andthen these recurrent like
traumas that were happening.
So you did what you do, youwent out, you asked for help.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Then I asked for help .
Then it was a benzodiazepineand now VA illness and then the
polypharmacy began to to where,like, I didn't even know who I
was anymore.
I completely lost a sense ofself.
I lost my twenties and thirtiesBasically.
I did not have children, I didnot get date, I didn't get
married, I didn't have friendslike the basic human things that
everybody else gets to have.
I completely got robbed of.
(11:44):
I couldn't watch TV.
I don't have any culturalreference, like people always
say these things like did youwatch, you know, breaking Bad?
No, I didn't, cause I was numband couldn't you know?
Yeah, it was bad that's called.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You know the iatrogenic harm like caused you
to be more mentally ill thanthan the mental illness piece of
it that you should have beentreated for right.
So the PTSD that you shouldhave been treated for well, you
were quote unquote treated forthat caused you to be more
medically mentally ill.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, even worse than that.
I chased my tail in the mentalhealth system for all those
years Like what's wrong with me,something's wrong, and so I was
being told that waspost-traumatic stress.
So then I'm like, okay, let'stry EFT, let's try EMDR, let's
do CBT.
I've done all those fuckinglettered therapies.
Waste of my goddamn time.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Wait.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Do you know, jen and I were talking about this,
though, because we are thinkingthat when you are overly
medicated, or even medicatedperiod, and you can't do them, I
have been like Angie, if youever find any research on that,
I have scoured the wet, like thedeep, dark web of like tell me,
someone's got to do a study onthis idea.
That, like, how is it that wecan do these interventions that
are to heal the brain,especially EMDR, because we've
done a ton of research on EMDR,even got some experts in on it
(13:10):
that we know to ask thisquestion like there, how can it
actually be effective?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
But there is a piece of research on EMDR and benzos
in particular, which areindicated because people cannot
process.
They're numb, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Right, yeah, but we think, but we think it's way
more than that.
We even think it's like ageneral SSRI will not allow you
to do that, and the the waypeople talk about it is, but you
know we need these things toget stable so you can then do
the work, and I'm like I'm sofucking tired of hearing that.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
I am tired of hearing that.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, you know, so even more, the more if you, if
you want to go on the therapybent.
I went to therapy, you know.
I went to train to be atherapist.
Okay, and I, I'm looking atthat from like, I'm a critical
patient perspective while I'm insocial work school and what I
noticed is all these letteredtherapies are in your
therapist's mind and they're notwith you and present and
(14:01):
listening to you.
They're thinking about oh, isthis attachment theory?
Oh, what if it's?
You know this bullshit in theirhead.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Let's label it.
Label, label, label.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yes, it's preventing you from being with me.
Right now.
You're thinking about what'swrong with me.
Stop that and just be with meas a human being, please.
Yes, so yes, reason number onewhy I'm not a therapist there's
(14:29):
more than one reason, Angie.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh, there's tons, there's millions.
Oh, maybe we shouldn't havecalled this why I won't be.
If I could rewind time, Iprobably wouldn't be a therapist
either.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
We did a whole episode on all the harm we
caused and the 30 biggest thingswe said to people that caused
them harm.
And then we went on Mad inAmerica and and did their
podcast and talked about thatand on another one I need to go
listen to those.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Okay, I'll listen to that.
Listen to the dirty 30, listento the dirty 30.
Cause.
Yeah cause.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
we literally call ourselves out for all the stupid
shit and the manipulativelanguage and the harm that we
have caused, and we're laughingabout it now, but it's very
serious.
We didn't know, though, at thetime like when you're trained,
you don't know that this isharmful to people.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
This is what I share.
Can I share?
Yes, okay, here we go.
Uh, let's, where do I begin?
Um, that's, it's not possiblefor you to have PSSD.
You need to lose weight, um,and then your libido will come
back, okay, the another.
Another one was uh, no, medsdon't do that.
(15:32):
Um, this is your post-traumaticstress disorder.
Uh, when I had a lapse in PSSD,I had like some of the feeling
come back.
A therapist told me you must'vebeen sexually abused.
So maybe you need to do work onthat.
What that's not.
Yeah, here's another one.
When I was in benzo withdrawal,my psychiatrist wrote in my
record patient believes she's inbenzodiazepine withdrawal and
that brings her comfort.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Um, yeah, let's blow these people up.
You got what.
I got names.
Blow this shit up.
Angie, like what's his name?
Who?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
should we be tagging?
Who should we be tagging?
Who should we be tagging onsocial media right now?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
we're gonna make like a doctor website and just
review all of them oh, there is.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
There is my god, there is one that's out there,
oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I had a therapist laugh at me one time because I
told her I took extra tramadolbecause I didn't feel good and
she's like, why would you dothat?
And she started giggling andthen she was grossly
unprofessional and unhygienic,let me just put it that way.
And I was looking at her likeyou're laughing at me.
Look at you, you're a mess.
Why would I take any advicefrom you in the first place?
(16:35):
You know um horrible thingsthat you know.
Let's try another therapy.
I think you need to go to ptsdinpatient.
You know?
Uh, it's all over my record.
It says chronic and persistentmental illness not likely to
improve.
Chronic and severe Take medsfor the rest of your life Angie.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Was the context that you received these services all
through the VA?
No, both, so all over the board.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Yeah, so I was in the VA system, but I also had
civilian providers and they bothbasically signed off on each
other's bullshit.
And not once, not once I saidthis in the film, not once.
You know, I'm going to all thistherapy.
I was very emotional Neuroemotional is what we call it now
Like like everything felt likea crisis, Like I just like
couldn't handle my own feelingsbecause I was a fucking mess.
And not once did a doctor say,or a therapist, especially one
(17:23):
that I saw because what aretherapists taught?
You know, we can look at yourcontext, but don't talk about
the meds and that's none of yourbusiness, and don't practice
medicine.
If one person would have donethat, you would have saved my
fucking life from all the painthat I had to endure, you know.
But no, that we're not allowedto talk about that because we're
(17:45):
therapists.
Get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I have a huge argument with that too, because
I'm like we are the eyes andears of psychiatry.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Honestly.
You are with me.
Yeah, you guys are with me fourhours a month and they're with
me for eight minutes.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah.
Every six months or threemonths or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, or two months, yes,exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
How did this roll you into medicating normal then?
How did that idea come to?
How did that come to fruitionfor you?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
basically, what happened was I, I guess.
When I was on the 18 meds I meta psychiatrist.
He said who put you on all this?
He took me off 10 overnight ina psych ward and I hallucinated
oh my god yeah and complete.
I literally saw people walkingdown the hallway with no heads
and told the nurses like I amseeing dead people.
(18:33):
And uh, they kept me in thehospital for like 45 days.
Then I get out and it took meanother 10 years to deprescribe
the rest and most of it was notdone correctly.
So I tapered some balls inmyself for two and a half years
and then I got down to twobenzos and I changed doctors and
I said I want off this shit.
I like put both the bottles onhis desk.
And I said I want off this shit.
I like put both the bottles onhis desk.
(18:53):
And I was like I want off ofthis.
And he goes.
Well, you shouldn't be on twobenzos in the first place.
So pick one.
So he cold turkeys me off oneand puts me on the second.
I was on Ativan three, threemilligrams a day.
So then I start tapering theAtivan.
I get to about two years oftapering and then he told me to
make a cut from 1.25 milligramsto one milligram and it was just
(19:15):
too much.
It shocked my system, yep.
And then I didn't know what washappening.
I start like having likeconvulsions while I'm trying to
fall asleep and, um, I go to theemergency room like three times
in a week, and the doctors arelike, stop doing that, you're
not dying.
Just updose on your Benzo.
So I up up dose like three daysin a row and that third pill, I
(19:35):
stuck it in my mouth and I waslike I can't do this, like this
is poisoning me, that's what andlisten, I am not telling anyone
to cold turkey.
Okay, this is what happened tome.
Do not cold turkey.
A benzo, please.
You could die from that.
Okay, so I go to the hospital.
Well, I go to the hospital.
Well, so then I'm standing inmy kitchen I'm sorry to be
graphic, trigger warning, press,mute, whatever you need to do
but I'm standing in my kitchencutting carrots to make a pot
(19:58):
roast and I wanted to stabmyself.
And I was like what the fuckjust happened?
Because I am not, I was in themilitary.
We don't play with knives, weplay with guns.
So I'm like why am I havingthis thought about a knife?
I'm not into that.
So it was like a very foreign,scary thought to me.
And then I got really reallysuicidal, like really fast, and
I'm looking at my life.
(20:18):
I'm like a 4.0 student, I'm astatistics tutor at Washington
university in St Louis.
I'm like why am I suicidal?
There's no reason to.
I'm about to graduate in like ayear and a half and I'm like
something is wrong, but I didn'tknow.
What I didn't know was the meds.
I didn't know it was the taper.
I didn't know nothing.
Okay, so, and I'm a psychologystudent, um, so I?
(20:39):
I call my sister.
I said you need to come watchthe dog.
I can't do this.
I need to go to the hospital.
I go check in the hospital.
I tell them this is anxiety.
Medicine is obviously notworking.
I'm more anxious than I've everbeen.
So they put they check me in.
On Monday morning the residentcame in and I said am I going to
experience any withdrawal?
And listen what he said to me.
(21:00):
He said you might hear voicesand they might say your name.
That's what he said to me andI'm like, okay, yeah, it doesn't
make any sense, I don't, that'swhat he said to me, so so.
So then I get I think it was0.25 milligram at like 10 AM and
(21:20):
then at 2 PM I got another 0.25and then I was cold turkied and
then the rest of the week I satthere playing puzzles in the
psych ward, talking to thenurses and listening for my
voice, like is anybody saying myname?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
mean like what's happening?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I'm waiting for the side effect to happen.
I was gonna laugh.
It's so asinine, like I just,yeah, it's so, it's so acid.
I sometimes like we just laughbecause it's like, how else do
you even react to, to this like?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
yeah.
So then Friday comes along andthe doctor says well, we don't
want to keep you another weekend, it would be counterproductive,
so we can go ahead and checkyou out.
So I remember leaving thehospital thinking these people
thought I was addicted to that.
Ha ha, ha.
Cause I wasn't, I knew that Iwas tapering.
I went off of this shit.
I'm not addicted to this in thetraditional sense.
So I drive home that nextmorning I went to the gym.
(22:08):
The next, uh, I ordered a pizzaand then I start eating the
pizza and I'm like, why doesthis taste weird?
It's like really salty.
I can taste all the flavors inthe sausage.
Something is wrong.
The next morning I wake up.
I'm sensitive to light, tosound, everything.
It was like, boom the hell, thegates of hell opened and um,
(22:29):
Did you hear your name?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Not yet.
I never did Not yet.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I, um, did you hear your name?
Not, yet.
I never did not yet.
Okay, okay, no, I heard lots ofother shit, though I did anyway
.
So then that plunged me into thenext three and a half years
fighting for my fucking life.
I had akathisia.
I had homicidal and suicidalthoughts 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, like kill yourself,kill yourself, you're gonna die
, you're dead to die, you'redead, you're going to have a
stroke, you're going to have aseizure.
That was my intrusive thoughtsfor three and a half years I
couldn't stand up to shower.
For two and a half I could notread, I didn't speak.
For six months I could not evenread a comment or a Facebook
(23:06):
post, or I just like disappeared.
And my best friend was like Isaid I'm mentally ill, take me
back to the hospital.
I said call Wounded WarriorProject, tell them to sell all
my stuff and put me in a home.
I'm not coming out of this.
This is like next level hell.
I really thought I was likeschizophrenic or something like
overnight Like this is from thebenzo.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
This is like the very last end of you.
Got through all these otherdrugs, right, and we're going to
cold turkey off a quote unquotelow dose of a benzo Yep, okay.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, I would argue, it's from all of them, and this
was the last straw, I know, butthis is the shit, people say to
us right, they're just like andit can't be from that thing, or
there's no way someone couldhave a reaction like that from
getting off of one medicationwhen in reality it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It's the whole story.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
So, yeah, carry on and then that doctor you know
said maybe it's ms um.
The therapist at the hospitalsaid uh, we're missing something
because I was reporting mysymptoms.
They tried to give me acttherapy and watch my thoughts
fly.
But I'm like my thoughts aretelling me to kill people.
What the fuck do you mean?
Watch them float by?
Um, I've even had someone inour movement tell me you know
(24:16):
this stuff, it was in you.
No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
No like they're saying, you were a homicidal
person.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Is that like well, I even had one person who writes
about akathisia.
Tell me um, you know you werein the military, so this stuff
was inside of you.
I'm like like, no, it wasn't.
I was in a war zone and I didn'teven have these thoughts.
Okay, so those are moregaslighting.
If we're on that topic, no,these chemicals are that
dangerous.
It changes the nature of yourthought and thank God I knew
(24:44):
it's got to be the drug.
Yeah, yeah, people that don'tknow the drug, that's when
people are crazy and do stuff inthe world.
Thank God I didn't do that.
Okay, I'm lucky, because it waslike inches away sometimes.
Um, so anyway, I fought for mylife for the next three and a
half years let's just put itlike that.
Um, but during that process Ithink I was like 10 months off
(25:05):
the filmmakers found me on aFacebook group and they messaged
me and said do you want to bein a movie about this?
And I said no, because I'dalready been in three
documentaries aboutpost-traumatic stress and
warriors coming home and traumaand blah, blah, blah, and I was
kind of like a poster girl forPTSD and getting help, so I did
my own set of gaslighting.
Okay, other people are tellingpeople to get treatment and all
this other crap.
(25:25):
So then they flew to St Louisand basically begged me to be in
the film and I was like, okay,basically begged me to be in the
film and I was like, okay, Iguess.
And then when I dropped thefilmmaker off at her hotel, I
thought, well, shit, now I can'tkill myself because I have to
tell this story, because if Idie I don't want them to like
say at the end of the movie likeoh, angie was such a great
person but she ended.
She ended her life.
So like I had, this illness wasso bad yeah so I had to stay
(25:50):
alive for the movie and andbecause I was mad and I was like
if I die, everybody's going tosay, oh, she was mentally ill.
We tried to help her.
She's so disgruntled, she'ssuch a dysfunctional veteran,
you know, poor thing.
We tried and I was like, no,that's not what's happening.
These drugs have fuckingmurdered my brain.
That's what happened.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, god, I just didn't take a minute I'm like
holy shit, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Well, no, because I'm .
Speaker 2 (26:20):
You've been through the ringer and I'm just thinking
, like all the thoughts that youhad, though like you had the
right thoughts like I am notgonna let anybody fucking win.
Nobody's gonna win.
I'm not gonna take my lifebecause I'm the only one who'll
lose, you know.
And then they win again andyour story still can't be told
in the way that you want to tellit.
You know, you're still not incontrol of your story here.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
No, I mean, let's be real, even in the film.
The film is like eight minutesof my life edited.
It's not the whole story ofwhat happened.
If anything, it looks happierthan it actually was in real
life, like it's kind of scriptedto make you feel hopeful at the
end and I was still fighting,you know yeah it's.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I don't think there is a way in a film, I don't
think there is a way to in afilm, or even really good words
for you to describe what you'regoing through like right.
I don't think words or a filmcan do it justice.
Period.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
No, you know, and I'm writing a book now so I can
tell my own story in my own way,but even that is like hard to
explain, like you know,therapist jen, like the symptoms
that you have from thisexperience, there's no even
language for it like I can'teven explain what my body was
doing.
It was like a torture chamberand I was stuck in there and my
soul left my body and I was likebeing haunted and the
(27:35):
dimensions were open and allkinds of shit, like it was nuts.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It's.
It's almost like an alternatereality and it's not like you're
worried.
I don't worry about trying tolike think that people don't
believe me, because I know thepeople that know me well know
that I'm going through some shit, right, but the ability to try
to describe it to them.
This happened a couple of daysago with my husband and I had to
call him when I was drivinghome from a dinner with some
friends and I had to pull thecar over and he's like tell me
(28:01):
what's happening to you.
And I'm like it's like I'm outof my body looking at myself,
but it's a whole nother worldthat's happening and I hear
things, but not in reality.
They're in me, outside of mybody, and I'm trying to explain
all this to him and he's on thephone just like, okay, what do
you need?
And I'm like I don't know whatI need, but it's hard to
(28:23):
actually describe it to people.
And then sometimes, once in awhile, in a textbook you'll read
something and you'll go oh okay, that's okay.
(28:45):
Right there.
That might be it right there,how they just said it, but it's
very subjective.
It's need them on board to beable to go hey, I need a liquid
of this now.
Hey, I need this Right, and Idon't know.
For everyone listening, thebest bang for my buck I got was
when I would describe stuff thatwasn't helpful to them, but
when I put publications in frontof them like the deprescribing
manual.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I tried that.
They laughed at me with that.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I mean, that's that actually?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
helped, but that's because, angie, I think they
looked at you differently.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I think your record painted you as this person
Always sick, you will always besick, right, and mine doesn't
have quite that to thatbackground.
I don't have that right.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
And we just need to get her to a level of acceptance
that this is her life.
You know what I mean.
That kind of thing I keepthinking about.
There was several years ago,probably six, seven years ago I
had someone from, a client fromthe came from the VA and I had
them bring in their medicationsand I had never seen it was a
benzodiazepine and some type ofopiate pain killer thing.
(29:47):
Right, I had never seen a jug,a prescription jug.
It was a jug.
It wasn't just a big orangebottle, it was literally a jug
with a thing on the top.
And yeah, and I'm like I havenever for those two types of
medication particularly, andthat wasn't that long ago, and I
(30:10):
remember sitting there going.
Everything that you'reexperiencing right now is
because of what's in those jugs.
Like that was it, but at thetime this person didn't want to
hear that right.
Like no, that can't be right.
Like you're the only one who'stold me that.
Like you're talking about.
Well, if only somebody wouldhave said something to me, I
don't know that you would havebelieved them, you know, because
everyone else was sayingsomething completely different
(30:33):
yeah, you know, but I think thatyou were even saying something
completely different yeah, Ithought they were.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
They saved my life and I could not function without
them and I can't go to schoolunless I take this because my
anxiety is so bad.
But it was coming, thatdysregulation was coming from
the drugs I was on, right right.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I don't think most people realize that, especially
with benzodiazepines, that thelonger you're on this, the worse
anxiety you're going to have.
Yeah, and I call it suicidalanxiety because there comes a
point I've seen many clientsthat have been on benzos for
decades and they become anxiousand suicidal and like this is a
(31:10):
result of the medication.
This is not you.
This is what's being put intoyou.
You know, and they don't wantto hear that either.
Like so, but before we, beforewe started recording, we were
talking about being spellbound.
You know like this, this ideathat you don't know what's going
on inside of you and, plus,you're also doing all the things
that people are telling you todo go get these therapies, do
(31:32):
this, get help for yourself,like all these things.
And that turned out to be theworst thing that you could have
done for yourself, unfortunatelyyes.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yes, so I lost.
I lost about 20 years to that.
18 years on disability yeah,altogether about 20 years.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So how'd you get to where you are now, angie, with
what you're doing, travelingacross the country, speaking how
?
Speaker 3 (31:57):
did this start?
Let's change this.
Let's, let's stir this boat ina different direction.
Okay, so basically the filmcame out in 2019.
I asked them I begged themplease do not let it come out
until I'm out of school.
So I went to a master's programum and social work while I was
in the heat of coming out oflike the acute period and still
(32:18):
very brain damaged, and Ithought, okay, if I go to school
and I stay around people thatwill keep me in reality long
enough to and I will use this as, like, brain injury rehab.
That's literally how I lookedat school.
Okay, so then I graduate schooland then they released the film
, and then they wanted me to flyeverywhere.
And I was like I can't fly, Ican't be in a stimulating
environment like this.
So I was like, if I get an RV,can you take, can you like help
(32:42):
me?
You know, pay for gas here andthere in between events or
something.
And they said, sure.
So then it was my apartmentwent up in rent, I was
graduating school and all myfriends were getting these
agency jobs for thirty thousanddollars of social workers paying
for their own supervision.
I was like I'm not doing that,no see, I told you, fiscally
smarter than us?
yes, you are not gonna do that,we're not doing that.
(33:03):
Okay, I'm not gonna work infoster care, and you know no.
So, um, and then the film cameout.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
This is covid time, right before also right, yeah,
so I literally drive frommissouri.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I did a film screening in el paso and austin,
dallas, phoenix, and then Imake it to ucla and we're about
to have a big screening with kimwetzak and bomb headland, which
they sue manufacturers ofpharmaceuticals.
And then boom, ucla closes downand everything is over.
And now I'm like shit, I'm onthe road, I have no furniture or
any place to go.
(33:35):
Well, I guess we're going todrive to Maine during the
pandemic.
So long story short isbasically I use van life.
This is like my healingincubator.
It like shielded me from theoutside world long enough to
help me heal, but it also likeforced me to like re-socialize
and run errands for myself andlike yeah right.
(33:56):
I couldn't even drive like 20minutes from my house for years,
you know, yes, so I just kindof used it as like a healing
modality.
I get on my own terms, like Idon't want anybody telling me
how to fix agoraphobia.
Let me figure it out yeah, sickof everyone's interpretation.
So I took healing out into theworld.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
There you go reclaiming your personal agency
is what you did that washappening the whole time.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Actually like for somebody to have the awareness
that, nope, this is the drugs.
Nope, this is the drugs.
Like this whole entire time foryou to still have that voice
inside of you telling you that.
I think that's a huge, powerfulchange maker for people.
When you lose the ability tointernally reflect and believe
things that other people aretelling you can't be true.
Like I think that's when we gethelpless, when we give up, when
(34:40):
we stop pushing right.
Like is that trickled throughyour story?
Like no, it's not, it's not me.
I am not mentally ill foreverand ever.
Amen, like this is from all ofthese medications.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah, and I think that took me probably a year to
figure out.
Like I just knew that medsturned on me and now I'm off of
them.
And now I know I cannot go backto psychiatry to tell them what
I'm thinking, cause if I tellthem that my rights are gone
immediately and I knew, if Itell them even that I'm suicidal
they're going to put me back inthe freaking psych ward back
ons.
And I'm not I.
I knew intuitively if you putone more drug on this, I am dead
(35:15):
.
That's it, I'm done.
So.
I was like I don't know if I'mgonna heal from this or I'm
gonna die from this, but I'm,I'm not gonna hurt myself if I
can help it and we'll just seewhat happens.
And my brain did heal.
I did not use supplements, Idid not do tms.
I did not do TMS, I did notmicrodose anything, I just left
it the fuck alone.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
And it figured it out .
What Wait, the brain can healitself.
Holy shit.
We've only been preaching thatforever, Terry and I.
What?
Speaker 3 (35:45):
It's not broke.
And isn't it such a miraclethat my mental illness just
disappeared?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Look at that Shocker, unless you have an alternate
personality right now and you'retraveling this world in this
van, I mean that's becauseeverybody I meet now says, angie
, you're one of the mostgrounded normal people I know.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
You're like I live in a van, Just kidding.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I have a.
I have a real about that.
Is it me?
How is it that this silly girlin a van who gets naked and goes
to Hot Springs and Burning manknows more about deep diving
than the average psychiatrist?
What the fuck world do I livein?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
What is the world that you live in?
That's the thing.
What is the world that we livein that there is still so much
pushback about this idea ofdeprescribing?
I?
Mean, I'm sure you get it allthe time.
Still, angie, I'm sure you hearthings like meds, save lives.
You know how dare you talk?
About this stuff, how dare.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
No, I just honestly like I kind of keep a low
profile, like on social mediaand stuff.
I could probably do a lot moreand I'm I'm kind of lazy.
But also the people that I workwith, like let me just briefly
say this that I have like aninternational coaching practice.
I see people all over the worldat all stages of deprescribing.
I have tapering support groups.
I've protracted, I havecaregiver, I have other coaches
(37:00):
that work underneath me.
We are so deep helping peoplenot end their life.
I don't have time to entertainthe people that don't believe us
.
I don't give a fuck what theythink.
I come sit with me for a day.
I'll put a seat right next tome and you can watch this all
day.
The stories that I hear are sotraumatic.
The amount of pain andsuffering the mental health
(37:21):
industry has done to people.
I hear all the ways in whichdoctors skate out of it and deny
it and gaslight their ownpatients.
I hear all those stories,Thousands of them.
Okay, and the way, if I couldpredict what's happening, let me
just share a prediction.
There's enough of us talkingabout this, enough people
(37:41):
sharing their stories on mediasocial media and happening to
enough people that their wholefamilies are finding out that at
some point the tipping point isover and you guys are all full
of shit and we don't want tolisten to you anymore.
And that is to the mentalhealth industry's own distress
that they destroy themselvesbecause they deny that this is
happening.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Period, that's my I agree with your prediction, uh,
and I think it's coming in fastright now it's coming in, yeah
and I think I think social mediahas been a huge um push for
that to come in like that.
Yeah, and I'm thankful forsocial media in that respect
that it's been able to to pushthis through and give give
(38:19):
people the opportunities toshare an alternative reality
story.
You know, outside of meds, meds, meds, more meds, gold standard
meds, meds, meds, whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
And there's also this interesting thing happening on
twitter where, like thepsychiatrists, they're actually
kind of critical, but they,they'll, they'll, like, they'll,
put things in our mouths andthey'll say things like well,
they're saying that that mentalillness isn't real or that, you
know, somebody shouldn't be ondisability for what they're
feeling because it's not realand it wait.
We're not saying that weunderstand that mental illness
(38:53):
is real.
I had it.
Okay, I have been sotraumatized in my life that I
understand why people want totake meds.
That's why I took them, becauseit was so overwhelming, I could
not contain the experience.
Okay, that's real, but yourtheory on what to do about that
is the thing that's not real.
Okay, that's the problem, youknow the way that we sell people
(39:13):
.
I, you know.
If anything we we do, we do oursociety disservice, because we
don't learn how to handle bigemotion.
We don't, we're not there foreach other.
The average person cannot beempathetic with someone who's
suffering.
That's why we have therapists,because the average person can't
do that, you know.
So there's lots of brokenpoints.
Let's just put it that way lotsof broken points.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Let's just put that way lots of broken points well,
I think one of the biggestbroken points is the idea that
every emotion has to be copedwith.
Yeah, like, not every emotionthat you have you need to find a
coping skill or strategy for no, sometimes you just need to let
it be, you just need to feel itand let it move on you know,
that's what I did in the van,like I was, you know, four years
(39:55):
off meds, totally freaking out,could not walk in a grocery
store and I would somehow do it.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
And then when I come out and feel like I'm literally
going to pass out and die and Iwould sit on the toilet and just
have a panic attack, I'm likethere's nothing to do.
Angie, just let it rip you knowI would cry for hours.
I would wake up with loneliness, I would just my heart would
break.
I just let it process and Ijust was like there's nothing to
do.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
There's nothing to do , just be with your feelings,
just be with what's happening,you know in one of those stupid
lettered therapies that you weretalking about in DBT, terry,
and I, like one of the I justsaid this to a client this last
week I'm having to do it myselfright now, deprescribing and I
was talking to the client aboutthe idea of urge surfing and
like you can have these emotionsand they can be so fucking
(40:38):
strong and you can have theseurges and they can be so fucking
strong.
So instead of fighting it, siton it and surf on it like you
would on a wave right Because in10 minutes.
It will feel different In 45minutes.
It will feel different In twohours.
It will feel different in 45minutes.
It will feel different in twohours.
It will feel different.
Like no emotion and urge canstay at that same level of
intensity for 24 hours straight.
(41:00):
It's, it's physiologicallyimpossible, we can't do it Right
.
So it's this idea of like, yes,sit on that toilet for 45
fucking minutes and have yourpanic attack, Let it rip.
Like do yourself some somethings, for some grounding
things that you can do.
God damn it.
Touch the nasty, like toilethandle or the floor and feel how
gross it is, but it's cold.
Like let yourself do that shitRight and just ride that goddamn
(41:24):
ride the wave right.
Like you surf it out.
And I think we are constantlytrying to fight it versus just
let ourselves have it.
When we let ourselves have it,we teach ourselves we can get
through it.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Yeah, and that's what therapists teach clients really
Avoid your triggers.
Treat your symptoms, cope withwhat you're experiencing.
They're not actually trying toheal things.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, stop avoiding all the triggers, for the love
of God, you're going to havethem, they're going to be there
all the time.
Like, sit through it.
Like, find a safe way to do itand sit through it if you can
Right Like, which I know.
Some people get all feedback onthis when I say that cause
they're like oh, they're goingto go kill themselves.
You know what?
Actually, a lot of peoplearen't.
They haven't, they have nottaught themselves that they can
(42:06):
ride that ride, that urge, ridethat emotion.
You don't have to fight it likeyeah, yeah where do we get to?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
this idea that everybody that's struggling with
depression or anxiety or anytype of mental illness is number
one disorder and number twogonna kill themselves, like I.
I don't know, are you there?
That's paternalization.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yeah, a little bit You're kind of cracky, but
that's paternalizing.
You know, like infantile Ican't speak.
Infantile Infidelity noinfantilizing the patient
because of paternalism.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Like we know better.
Stop using these big words,angie quit it.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
We treat people like children because we think we
know what's better for themthere we go because we can't
even give them the respectneeded that maybe they do know a
little bit something abouttheir life you know, yeah, okay,
anywayantilizing yes.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Infantilizing Whatever.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Eroticizing.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Infantilizing, eroticizing.
This is going in weirddirections, right now, but yes,
I'm squirreling.
Yes, but I think also going backand adding into people say,
well, nobody taught me how todeal with that, nobody taught me
how to do these things, and wetalked about this on a different
episode that we just have.
Like, where in the world did weget to the idea that somebody
(43:38):
has to teach you everythingabout your emotions, about how
to work through them, about howto just be a person?
It's not all taught.
Sometimes you're self-taught,like you teach yourself how to
get through these hard things,and that's okay, you know, we
don't.
Their therapists are put inthis position of like know it
(43:59):
all, like we're supposed to knowit all, to teach all this to
everybody.
And I hear things likeeverybody should go to therapy.
I'm like no, they shouldn't.
Like not everybody should begoing to therapy.
As a matter of fact, mostpeople probably shouldn't.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Like yes, I, I don't know like usually the people
that are in therapy yeah,usually the people that are in
therapy don't need it.
It's the people around themthat need it let's talk about
kids especially kids especiallykids, yeah do you do, do you
work with kids and teens?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
at all.
Yeah, actually, I just saw.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, I just saw a teen last week.
I love working with teens andbecause the average teen they
don't get treated like they'rean actual human being.
They get treated like they'rejust stupid or young or they
don't know anything.
And so I like, just becausereally that's how I work, is
like I'm just with you, Like.
I'm not there's nothing fancygoing on here.
(44:52):
I'm just present and I'mlistening with you, like I'm not
, there's nothing fancy going onhere.
I'm just present and I'mlistening to you and I'm
attuning and I might reflectback to you and that's about it.
I don't do anything else, likethere's no.
So when I do that with a teen,they like they're like oh my God
, I really love you Cause youlisten to me.
I'm like, yeah, nobody in theirlife even listens to them.
It's sad, you know.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
But I mean, jen and I were taught that the the best
thing you can do in therapy isjust that therapeutic alliance
like you know, building thoserelationships, you don't need to
do all those fancy letterthings.
You don't need to do all thatextra.
You don't need to be extradon't be, extra yeah don't be, I
don't think it's thinking back.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I don't think I ever had a therapist that did that
for me.
It was always interpretingeverything as illness or
something wrong or something tofix, and that's one problem with
therapy is, even now, I stillhave to like Angie, there's
nothing wrong.
Stop watching this self-helpshit.
You don't need to fix this.
Just feel what you're.
Just be who you are Like.
Who cares if you're weird?
Speaker 2 (45:47):
You can buy my book if you want your best brain to
know.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Sorry, Now I'm like you're going to dip in sales
Cause I'm like don't readanything else.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
No, read my book.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Don't read any self-help books, just Terry's
book.
Hers is okay, just mine.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Mine's the last self-help book you're ever going
to need.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah, but it's it's.
It's way less self-help interms of the therapy world and
it's more about the brain.
What you're talking about,angie, this concept is like
you're living walking proof thatthe brain itself does heal.
It's not fucking broken,because we get this a lot and we
have to really state a case forpeople to try to view this
(46:31):
alternatively.
State a case for people to tryto view this alternatively,
Regardless if you've gotschizophrenia or you've got
addiction to heroin, everythingin between it doesn't matter.
The brain itself is this organthat can heal.
So when you look at what yourbrain did, that's exactly what
it did.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah Well, even because I had that therapy
background and psychologybackground while it was
happening to me, I wasfascinated and horrified at the
same time.
I was like holy shit.
So I thought I really saw, likeconcretely I'm sorry to get
spiritual for a second, but likeour mind is so powerful, like
you don't even understand howmuch power you have in there and
(47:10):
your power to listen to it ormassage it or to back off and
watch it, like I had to come toa whole new understanding of all
of that that no therapist evertaught me.
No self-help book caught me.
I was like thrown in the deepend and you are either going to
sink or you're going to swim andyou're going to have to figure
this out because you cannot gofor help.
The help is what did this?
So I got a crash course and aspeed pass and suffering and how
(47:32):
to be with it and what wasimportant to me and all the
stuff that I've been runningfrom by taking meds in the first
place.
It all came to a head and I hadto face all of it, including my
fear of death, like everything.
Boom, here it is.
There's nowhere to run, and Isee this too a lot with the
people I work with sometimeswhere they're still looking for
something Like there's somethingoutside of myself that's going
(47:54):
to fix it, that's going to makeit all better.
What if I take magnesium andfish oil and do psilocybin and I
maybe I just need to trip onayahuasca, like no, stop, yeah,
stop trying to treat it If youkeep, that's what got you here
in the first place, you know?
Yeah, um, so I've learned a lotof lessons and and that, and
even sometimes I feel like Idon't live in this universe all
the way because, like, I'm likeliving in the suffering world
(48:18):
during the day and myconnections are deeper and I
can't really like relate to,like normal people a whole lot
and I live in a van and like I,you know I'm more in nature than
most people.
I'm a little feral, you know,but I like it's just what it is.
This is what happens.
(48:38):
A little feral, I love that.
Wait, I have a hat for that, doyou?
Speaker 1 (48:40):
oh, she's got merch I hope you have a feral cat feral
but friendly.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
I love it.
It's great my sister made methat.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Oh my God, that's so good, that's funny.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
So there you go.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That's my story in a nutshell, Anyway if you can tell
somebody, like if somebody cameto you and was like I'm
thinking about, you know, my, mymental health is just not very
good, Um, and I'm thinking aboutgoing on medication what would
you tell that person now?
Speaker 3 (49:16):
I would say I want you to try everything else, like
let's go to the root issue ofwhat's going on for you, what in
your life is making you feellike this, and can we work on
that first?
And meds should be last resortand short term, if anything,
because the risks that come withmeds are not even you can't
(49:37):
even understand them until ithappens to you.
No, like if somebody was toldme like I read the pamphlet and
said dizziness, and so I thought, oh, I'll just be lightheaded
when I get out of bed.
No, the amount of dizzinessthat I had like prevented me
from showering for two and ahalf years and it felt like I
was on a tightro rope over thegrand Canyon with a gun pointed
to my head.
That's the amount of dizzinessLike you can't even understand,
(49:59):
you know.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah Well, like like libido you said to be libido
earlier.
That's one of the first thingsthat I thought about.
Right, Like it said, yes, likelow libido, say, is fast forward
15 years and your marriage isalmost going to end because you
can't feel pleasure.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Nothing that's much more realistic.
But, jen, that's not your fault, that's your husband's fault
for wanting sex in the firstplace.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Listen, I was told I needed a sex therapist.
I was told, jen, you need to go, get you a sex therapist.
Never by my prescriber, by theway, never once was it.
Hey, maybe it's the 15 years,20 years with the meds, yeah, no
.
So you know, like that's whatthe pamphlet should say.
Like I, when it comes toinformed consent, terry and I
are so big on this, Like you are, angie like just huge.
(50:43):
I love that you had that inyour bio too, because that part
that doesn't exist.
And I like, if you got trueinformed consent and you could
weigh all your options, yourrisks, your benefits, the
alternatives, alternatives,meaning let's try these 15
things first.
Right, if people really hadthat level of informed consent,
(51:06):
OK, then make your choices.
Yeah, make your choices, butthey don't get that.
We don't get.
We don't get that.
That doesn't exist.
Our clients, the people we see,don't get that.
None of us got it.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I could.
I and honestly, like forakathisia or PSSD, you cannot
get informed consent for youcan't give it because you can't
even imagine what that actuallyfeels like, because you don't
have a frame of reference for it.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Right so it's like.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
It's like asking someone to do you give consent
to being in a cartoon channel AIcreated.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
You don't even know what that would be like.
Akathisia is also one of thosethings where, even today,
informed consent is not given,when that word is brought up
because it's only studied inpeople who are taking
antipsychotics.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Exactly, I was just going to say that it doesn't
even get attached to yourtypical antidepressants Nope.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
SNRIs, the anxiolytics none of that.
It's not attached to thatwithin research, so you don't
even get it, even though it isvery real and you can pop on any
of these social medias and seemany of us taking these meds
that aren't antipsychotics, thatare.
Akathisia is about, yeah,putting the edge right, so it's,
it's.
That's the part that I thinkneeds more work is the actual
(52:17):
informed consent piece.
Um, I feel like every time Imeet with a client, I'm actually
giving them their very firstdose of informed consent.
They just sit there like openmouth, breathing, looking at me
with this, this, and I'm likeit's because you didn't receive
this.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
Yeah Well, even for deprescribing I feel like here's
a conversation just quickly,but I don't know if everybody
can deprescribe.
I've I've met people where I'mlike this I'm trying I just try
not to project my own experienceon them but I'm like I don't
know if they have the supportand tools that they need to get
through this.
That's how hard it is.
It's fucking hard.
(52:54):
It's not, and some people Ithink you know I worry about it
Like I don't want to ever comeacross as like I'm influencing
people to get off their meds.
That's not what I'm saying.
That's actually why one of thereasons I keep a low profile too
, because I don't want on themeds that I didn't make that
decision for them.
They came to that conclusionthemselves.
(53:15):
I'm never going to be one tolike try to talk you into it or
anything.
In fact, the other day in oneof my taper support groups, we
had 10 people and one of thegirls asked why are you all
coming off?
And so we went around the roomand we said what was your?
Why?
Every single person in thatgroup group it was I don't have
a choice.
I am so sick I cannot function.
Yeah, it wasn't this.
(53:37):
I think psychiatry just thinkswe get this wild idea we want
off our meds and actually that'sthe thing that's keeping us
well, which is bullshit.
No, people are so fucking sickthey can't function and there's
nothing else wrong with them.
It has to be the meds by likeprocess of elimination, you know
.
So I that's another thing inthe media that I worry about,
(53:57):
just like people don't get it toa point Like these drugs are
making us sick, like it's notsome crazy idea that we had.
I think.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
I think there's the majority of people that I talked
to about medication.
Even when I was on it, I didn'twant to be on it.
I think a lot of people don'twant to be on it and I think
that's intuitive.
I think there's an intuitionthere.
You know, it's not just a I'mgoing to be a resistant patient.
It's there's some intuitivething that's like I don't feel
well, but I can't put my thumbon it.
(54:28):
And I know, I know when I wentto the doctor to try to get off
of it or to tell her how bad Iwas feeling, like I wasn't hurt
at all, it was just well, maybeyou need more Like that was.
That was the response.
It wasn't helped me to get less, you know, help me to do these
things.
So then you stop telling yourdoctor, you stop telling.
I stopped telling them and Iwould just get the prescription
(54:50):
because I didn't know what elseto do.
So I would just go refill,refill.
Stop sharing anything, which isnot where we want to be either,
because then doctors aren'thearing, they're like oh, you're
doing fine.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
You're doing fine.
I lie to mine all the time thislast week, All the time my
symptoms.
I gloss right over it because Idon't want to hear any of this.
You're going to say, when Ialready told you I'm titrating
off of this.
I don't want to hear it.
So, the PHQ-9, the PHQ-4, allthe questions Yep, I'm good,
good, good, good.
Do you have anythingadditionally to talk to you
about your doctor?
Nope, doing great.
(55:22):
Nope, everything's fine, allgood, yeah.
And so it creates that.
But for me it's a safety thingbecause I'm not even going to
bring this up again.
You know what I'm doing and yetevery time I'm in here, you
want to talk to me aboutpossibly going back up or on
because of the symptoms I'mhaving.
Right, but these are withdrawalsymptoms.
This is what's happening in thetaper.
(55:42):
So we start to like silenceourselves.
It's like we can't even feelcomfortable with providers, just
like what you were saying,angie.
I can't go in and tell them I'msuicidal.
If I do, they're going to lock,lock me back up, because I have
been.
I am chronically mentally illand it won't get better, and
that's in my charts, right, likeyeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
It went so far as I fired my psychiatrist at 14
months off because I kept tryingto tell him and teach him and
I'd bring him papers and I'dwear my Washington medical
school shirt and like here yougot to read this is what's
happening to me.
And then finally I had it and Iwas like I'm done, I'm never
coming, never coming back to youagain.
I literally said you're killingmy friends, I'm out of here.
And then I walked across thestreet from the hospital and I
(56:18):
sat on the grass and I startedcrying because it was just like
I'm done, you know.
And then I, literally in thatsame second, I was like Angie,
you can't cry across from ahospital, They'll lock you up
Like, oh my God, I know, youknow that stays with me a little
bit Like that's the collateraldamage.
You know, if I cry in my car, Iworry if somebody sees me or
(56:38):
they're going to come ask if.
I'm okay.
Yep, like yeah, I'm okay, getaway from me.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
You know, I don't know, we're also we're also in a
very hyper suicide focusedsociety right now.
Any emotion might you mightkill yourself, you know.
And so, yeah, you know, I thinkpeople do overreact a lot to
that and people listening tothat, no, people underreact to
that.
We need to you know, like,actually, it's okay to feel,
it's okay to be sad, it's okayto you know, be upset, it's okay
(57:06):
to be like mad, so mad you'recrying you know, it's okay to do
all of that, especially withthis.
And you know, I am going to saylike your brain is not broken in
the start.
Your brain is where it needs tobe.
However, it becomes broken, itbecomes diseased due to these
medications, and then it is ourjob as people to know that your
(57:30):
brain has the ability to heal.
To that, I look at the brainkind of similar to the liver,
like the liver heals itself too,like, if you allow it, right,
Um, there's, there's not a lotof other organs that do that,
you know.
So I'm like it's a prettyspecial organ and I think we
need to treat it that way tooand understand that I don't
think the human psyche, um, isgoing to respond well to be
(57:53):
medicated.
It's the human psyche.
We don't know enough about it.
You know, this is our soul,this is our psyche, this is what
makes us human, is our brain,and we keep dampening the
humanity all the time withmedication.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
My opinion so here's my meme.
You guys will both enjoy this,I think.
Okay, ready, neuroscience weknow less than 5% about the
brain.
Psychiatry we know everything.
Therapists, whatever they sayperfect oh my god that is a
great place to end.
Yes, merch, that's it.
(58:32):
So, as a meta commentary, isthat we have messed with the
human body with chemicals thatwe don't even understand, and
people will figure that out oneway or another.
And then you will figure outthey're not going to help you
and you're going to have to saveyourself, and the more you look
to try to fix that, the worseit's probably going to get for
(58:53):
you.
So cut your losses, dosomething safe and save yourself
that's kind of what I learnedand find somebody like us who
can just be there with you.
Just hold your hand and not tellyou that you're something wrong
with you.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
That's right.
Yep Well on that.
That's a great.
That's a great space to wrap up.
Thank you for being on the show, angie, Thank Well on that.
That's a great space to wrap up.
Thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (59:13):
Angie, thank you for having me.
That was the best podcast Iever did.
Yay, well, hell yeah.
Ladies, can't wait to have youon mine, woo-hoo, yes.
Speaker 1 (59:25):
I hope we could swear , because otherwise it's going
to be really fucking hard for me.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I know for the F word, don'tyou?
Speaker 3 (59:30):
know I won the F award in Medicaid Normal, the
most F bomb.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
Oh, nice, nice Okay.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
All right, everybody.
Well, we are the Gaslit TruthPodcast.
We are going to make sure thatwe tag Angie's socials and
everything that we put out hereso you can find that in the show
notes or in any of thedeliverables we're going to put
out.
If you want to send us your,rate us and give us only five
(59:57):
stars or six or seven, let'sgive us all the things.
And Angie, thanks again forbeing on.
Thank you so much, that was fun.
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