March 25, 2024 • 51 mins
Do you have a healthy relationship with food?
Many of us struggle with health issues due to the food we eat. This may result from not paying enough attention to what we put into our bodies. That's why it's crucial to take our eating habits seriously, as they can significantly impact our overall well-being.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Momoe about the significance of practising mindfulness in our dietary choices, exploring the principles of Zen eating as a pathway to enhanced well-being.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's interesting that you mentioned, like this house,
is Zen or.
Yes, I often hear thoseperspectives which I don't have
any strong opinion on it,towards it.
But I may have differentperspectives, different
understanding from thoseteachings that you find in Zen
(00:23):
temples or in Zen books.
And I am a big fan of Zenbecause of two reasons First is
joy and the second is oneness.
I define Zen Buddhism as joyand oneness.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
My guest today on episode 79 of the Ikegai Podcast
is Mamawe, the author of ZenEating, a well-being advisor and
researcher at Chiyo Universityin Japan.
Mamawe wrote the book ZenEating a Japanese mindful
practice for well-being and truefulfillment, and in Japanese
(01:18):
that is Zen Eating Sekai gamitometa shiawase no tabekata.
And.
Mamawe wrote this book lastyear, and it introduces a new
meditation-based practice forsupporting the well-being of
busy people around the worldthrough conscious eating.
Educated in Japan, egypt andIndia, mamawe has delivered Zen
(01:39):
Eating workshops to thousands ofparticipants in over 30
countries globally, and herclients include companies such
as Google, mckenzie, accenture,panasonic, mitsui, fujitsu and
Salesforce, as well as manyuniversities like Imperial
College and India Institute ofTechnology.
(02:02):
Mamawe conducts originalresearch into comparative
happiness, zen, japanese cultureand spirituality.
Mamawe's mission is to invitepeople to tune into joy and
bliss.
Mamawe, thank you for joiningme today.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Hello Nick, and hello everyone, delighted to be on
your podcast and look forward totalk about Zen.
Talk about Zen Eating under thecontext of Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, exciting.
So with that, would you like toshare a little background and
share your journey to becoming aZen Eating guide.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Of course.
So I am sharing how to eat now,which is like conscious eating.
But to come to here I had likelong journey.
I have been meditating for 10years, based on Zen, zazen
meditation and other many typesof meditation, and I was born in
(03:10):
Japan, the countryside of Japanwith mountain, like North
countryside of Japan and mygrandparents.
They have a mountain andsurrounded by wild vegetables,
wild plants, and without knowingthey have disconnectedness,
(03:31):
they have disconnected life.
But I grew up in Tokyo so I wasalways admiring them, like how
beautiful their life is.
But I'm having this urban lifewhich I like.
So I decided to work for awellness department, a luxury
resort hotel in Japan, and I washappy that I was able to have
(03:57):
wellness moment with my clients,guests at that resort.
But at the same time I wasworking too much, overworking,
and I burned out.
I had to quit my job because ofmy health condition and that
was challenging for me.
(04:17):
I was working for wellness, butmy own wellness.
I didn't have time to take careof my own wellness and I moved
to India and decided to live inIndia for one and a half year to
two years and I learned Indiantraditional medicine, which
called Ayurveda and Indiannutrition, how to make balanced
(04:42):
diet for your body according toyour body condition, your body
type.
Which was fascinating.
And the reason that I startedlearning about this nutrition
was my mother overcame from thechronic illness which is called
rheumatoid arthritis by changingher diet to healthier vegetable
(05:05):
oriented or less artificialthings.
And so I realized, wow, what toeat and health is so strongly
related.
So I thought that nutrition issomething really important for
me and for everyone.
That's why I went intonutrition and diet healthy diet.
(05:28):
But I realized that as I becamemore healthy diet geek, I
realized I was far from happystate because I was so
judgmental like I cannot eatthis and you should not eat this
.
And at that point I realizedthat how to eat, or mindset
(05:52):
while eating, is as important aswhat you eat.
So I came back to thismeditational approach which I
started when I lost my father byhelicopter accident at the age
of 14, I was 14 years old.
So I met Zen and Zen helped meso much so I integrated Zen and
(06:18):
this eating and I startedsharing how to do it, how to
practice it with people, withcompanies.
So that's how I started Zeneating.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Well, thank you for sharing all that, and I'm
assuming this is a dailypractice for you, so this is a
bit of a joke question.
But what did you have forbreakfast today and how slowly
or mindfully did you eat yourbreakfast today?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So, to be honest with you, I didn't have anything for
breakfast.
I just have had a cup of hotwater, which I do drink every
day, and I love drinking hotwater because I feel my body
gets relaxed by drinking it.
But the point is how much youbecome aware of your bodily
(07:13):
reaction.
So that's what I always value.
That's important for me and Ithink that's important for you
too.
But usually I try to eatconsciously anytime, but maybe
externally I may eat as fast asyou are, but I try to maintain
(07:39):
this conscious level regardlessof this speed.
That's how I practice in dailylife, but I will talk about how
to practice later, maybe.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yes, so that's a good point.
I think we need to start withsome foundation.
And this is how you define Zenand, as you know, many Japanese
words become misunderstood orappropriated in the West and I
think Zen is maybe understood bysome, but misunderstood.
(08:11):
I think a lot of people use Zenas an adjective and saying this
house is very Zen or something.
But yes, and it's a bit strange, it's probably a bit strange.
They relate it to design orarchitecture or to aesthetic.
So how do you define Zen?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yes.
So it's interesting that youmentioned, like this house, is
Zen or?
Yes, I often hear thoseperspectives which I don't have
any strong opinion on it.
But I may have differentperspectives, different
understanding from thoseteachings that you find in Zen
(08:59):
temples or in Zen books.
And I am a big fan of Zenbecause of two reasons first is
joy and the second is oneness.
So I define Zen Buddhism as joyand oneness.
So joy means ultimate joywithout condition, and Zen
(09:23):
teaches you to know that youalready have enough in your
hands if you pay attention towhat you have in your hands.
So this fulfillment or thiscontentment gives you this
enoughness and joyful wife, sothat you realize, I realized,
(09:46):
wow, today being here is heavenand this sense of joy I learned
from or I learned through ZenBuddhism and oneness.
I found this beautifulexplanation in the book written
(10:07):
by DT Suzuki, daisetsu Suzuki.
Have you heard about him?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I think he introduced Zen to America.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yes, in the 50s, and so he explained about oneness by
using this metaphor, by usingthis explanation.
In Japanese, nature and selfuses same letter and that letter
shows the same meaning and inJapanese myself, is already part
(10:39):
of nature, in the languageitself, that sense of oneness.
Because we feel pain byexperiencing separation, divided
.
We feel happiness byexperiencing connected or sense
of oneness.
So if you bring back thisconnection with the nature or
(11:05):
part of nature, that you arepart of nature, you're part of
cycle, then this sense ofoneness will bring you ultimate
blissfulness in your life.
That's what I have learned fromZen, buddhism.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, that's a powerful lesson, and I think
you're right we're alwayscraving and seeking more than we
really need and we sufferbecause of that, because we're
always wanting more and we'renever satisfied.
But you're right, we have morethan enough.
It's important to be present,to find contentment in what we
(11:44):
already have, and I love thatidea of nature and that it seems
like we've lost our connectionto nature and we suffer because
of that as well.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So we try to unnaturally control nature,
maybe sometimes, but it doesn'twork.
So we should know that we arepart of nature and that leads us
.
Our consciousness, ourcollective consciousness as
human being, our collectiveconsciousness should, finally
(12:17):
should be shifted now, and sothat we will be able to tune
into endless, unlimitedprosperity which is continuously
given by this planet earth,nature.
And so we can learn from Zenhow to create the next standard
(12:39):
of prosperity withoutexploitation, and that
prosperity doesn't mean money,but that prosperity is unlimited
.
And this is how we can learn inmodern life, how we can learn
from Zen, I think.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
I like it.
I like this idea of onenesswith nature and, I guess,
connection with others, andthat's something I think we're
missing in the modern world.
We don't consider nature as apillar of health and we're
connecting less with people.
We tend to connect more onlinethan we do in person and we seem
(13:21):
to have all these problems ofloneliness and sadness and
depression.
So I think you're right, wehave everything we need, we're
just ignoring what we need andchasing unrealistic ideas of
what we think is prosperity.
As you mentioned, we might bechasing money or wealth or
(13:44):
success, but if we maybe if westop, we would realize, oh, I
already have a lot I can begrateful for.
So that's a really interestingperspective of Zen.
So I've never heard anyonedescribe it as like that.
I think we definitely associateto meditation and mindfulness
(14:07):
and maybe being almost beingalone, like Zen's often
described as something you dowith meditation and you have it
with your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So Well, I totally agree with that.
But through meditation we willtune into joy and bliss.
That's how I'm understandingand that's, I think, how people
can apply Zen into this modernlifestyle.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, with that, let's talk about how you have
applied Zen to eating.
So what is Zen eating?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yes, zen eating is the way you eat.
It's mindful eating, but it'sinspired by Japanese Zen
Buddhism and it's going beyond,like it goes beyond more than
mindful eating, so that,ultimately, I'd love you to
experience this connectivitythat we were talking now, the
(15:08):
sense of oneness with this, withthe planet, and so, through
eating one grain of rice, if youimagine where this rice came
from, how many people wereinvolved to your one meal, and
so you may imagine soil, the sun, water, rain, air, and if you
(15:32):
imagine the generations, you cantrace back many generations.
This rice, one grain of rice,is a baby seed, and this baby
had father and mother, and thatfather and mother had father and
mother, so you can trace backmaybe 4.2 billion years old.
(15:53):
Yeah, because there are no gapin between.
So connectivity in thedimension of space and dimension
of time, and it goes to futureforward as well.
So this sense of oneness that weare living in a cycle is really
(16:18):
important, I think, toexperience through Zen eating.
In order to experience thisoneness, I suggest you to open
up your body first.
When I offer workshops orexperience practice of Zen
(16:39):
eating, I usually start withasking you to smell or touch
with your hands.
So if you open your five senses, our body is usually sleeping
and we don't pay much attentionto our five senses or internal
perception, which is like yourstomach senses.
(17:03):
So that's the gateway to openup your body and bring back the
connection with your body willlead you to bring back the
connection with the planet.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Wow, that is fascinating.
It actually reminded me of thetime when my family, so when we
moved back from Japan toMelbourne and my son was quite
young and we were looking thingsto do in our community, we
actually found a Chan BuddhismCenter, so a Chinese and
(17:42):
Buddhism Center, and we startedvolunteering there and they used
to offer us meals and when wewere given the meals we were
told we had to sit separately,not talk, face Buddha and eat
mindfully.
And so it was quite.
(18:03):
First it was quite amusing.
So I'd be sitting somewhere, myson would be behind me
somewhere, my wife would be inanother corner of this big room
and we're kind of, you know, I'dbe looking at my son and
smiling.
But we really had to payattention to only the experience
of eating and obviously havefeelings of appreciation, eating
everything and yet trying tosavour the food too thoughtfully
(18:30):
and be very present in that,almost like a ritual, like
really only eating.
And it was quite powerful and Ireally began to enjoy it, the
idea of I don't have to talk, Idon't have to think about other
things, I can try and connect tothe food.
(18:50):
So I guess, yeah, throughconnecting through food, we are
connecting to something largeand, like you're right, who was
involved in making this food?
How was nature involved?
And that can extend beyond ourplanet, I guess.
So if we go far back enough, sothat's interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Oh, so interesting.
I'd like to add the beautifulcomments that you shared.
Now you can amuse byexperiencing solitude, but that
solitude is not loneliness.
You deeply connect withyourself and with food in front
(19:34):
of you, and when you fullyconnect with yourself and this
food, then you realise that youcannot be alone, never be alone.
Everything is always connectedor interrelated.
So eating quietly is amusing.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
That is amusing.
So the idea of eating quietlyand in solitude yeah, that it is
amusing is amusing, but it is.
It is right.
I think it might take a whileto get accustomed to, but it's
also relaxing and it kind ofnourishes your spirit and your
soul, as well as your mind andbody.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yes, thank you for mentioning it.
I forgot to talk about soul,spirit nourishment.
So a lot of my clients orguests that experience them
eating usually say wow, theyrealize food is not fuel to your
body but it's the totalnourishment to your existence,
(20:44):
your entire existence, soul,spirit and good.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I think so, and this is kind of crazy because we you
know, most of us eat two orthree times a day.
We're often snacking, we'reeating on the go.
So it's something we do everyday, but we don't optimize the
experience or we don't give theexperience enough care and time.
So this is obviously whatyou're promoting, to think.
(21:10):
Suzuki said this.
Like Suzuki sensei said, whenyou eat, just eat, and when you
do that first, there's someresistance with your mind and
your jumping from all thesethoughts and what you have to do
and what happened yesterday orwhatever.
But we practice you can almostlose time in eating slowly.
(21:34):
So it's not something serious,is it?
It's something almost relaxing,and you actually describe it to
be playful while eating and touse fresh eyes.
So I think we should emphasize.
It's not like oh, you have tomeditate while you're eating and
it's something serious.
You describe it as something asplayful, so would you like to
(21:55):
touch on that?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Sure, playfulness is really important.
As, then, practitioners oranyone, we tend to think things
seriously or too seriously, andI am the person who takes things
(22:18):
seriously, and so I lovemeditation, I love any kind of
mindful practices, but I alwaysfind it really difficult to make
it habituated.
So, after doing some meditationcalls or something I can do,
(22:41):
meditation every morningproperly, sitting properly,
maybe for one month, and thenafter a while I usually do this,
and so I started hating my.
This always gave up and I feltthat, oh well, like I eat every
(23:03):
day twice or three times and Ican practice meditation through
eating, it's something that Ican do as well.
So I started eating withplayfulness, so with using
having fresh eyes.
Wow, this structure is supposedlike I'm drinking hot water and
(23:28):
you can be drinking this hotwater as like first time, so
that you may be aware of manythings through drinking just hot
water temperature where thiswater came from, river, cloud,
rain, and it goes back to theocean after you.
(23:51):
Wow, this water has this cycleand I'm living in this cycle and
I'm sensing it.
How wonderful that I have fivesenses.
How wonderful that I don't haveto command my internal organs
to process it without knowing it, without me knowing it, my
internal organ does everythingthat I need, and so how miracle
(24:15):
it is that you can be notknowing it.
So those playfulness is reallyimportant than knowing
accurately where this came from.
You don't have to know, maybeyou can, but you don't have to.
So playfulness than accuracy.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Playfulness over accuracy.
I mean, I see the wonder in you.
You're like, oh, like, justimagining what was involved with
this cup of water.
How did it get here?
And there is a cycle and thereis a journey of that water, but
it doesn't end with you, itstill continues with you.
So we don't think about that atall.
(24:58):
I don't know, but you do.
But maybe I'll start to thinkabout that now after this
discussion.
And, of course, as childrenwe're told you know, don't play
with your food.
But I like this idea of havingalmost like, a playful mind and
oh, yeah, seeing things are newagain with your food and, yeah,
(25:22):
being it's like in awe of thefood.
How did it?
How did it get to me?
I guess that makes you morepresent, yes, and being present
is very powerful.
So would you say this practicehas helped you be more present
in other areas of your life.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Totally 100%.
Yeah, I'm sure it has.
Yes, Like this is not one timepractice, but it's lifelong
practice, as we eat every day,till the end of the day, until
the end of our life.
So this lifelong practice ishelping me as a practitioner.
(26:05):
As one of the practitioners, Ican apply this sense of wonder
or how miracle that thesefunctions like this.
So this sense of appreciationnothing is granted this kind of
attitude is helping me to turninto joy and bliss on all front
(26:32):
in my life.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Well, that is obviously one of the benefits of
zen eating, so would you liketo share other benefits of zen
eating?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Sure Benefits of zen eating.
It is a good question.
So, yes, there are so manybenefits.
Easiest one is physical benefit.
Like people who come to me topractice zen eating, some people
has problem with obesity orwant to lose weight.
(27:07):
They obviously can be moreaware of how they eat, how much
they eat.
So say, for example, when youplace your hands on your stomach
which I usually recommend toeveryone and then ask your
stomach how much you want to eatnow, the amount that you want
(27:29):
to eat today may be differentfrom yesterday.
So you always ask your bodyeach and every time, so that you
can be having friendly attitudeto your body.
So you start not hating yourbody, even if you think that you
are chubby, but you starthaving this friendly
(27:51):
relationship with your body and,as well as your food, friendly
relationship with your food.
So rebuild that relationshipwith food, with your body and,
as a result, with your life aswell.
That's physical benefit andmental benefit as well.
Joyous calmness, playfulnessand feeling connection.
(28:18):
Living in connectivity willgive you ultimate calmness, deep
calmness, with joy.
So that's, I think, some of thebenefits.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, that's really interesting about the
conversation with your tummybecause I think I learned in
Japan that Japanese see the gutas a second brain of the body,
so it's like two brains having aconversation.
That's a very non-threateningway to think.
(28:54):
What is my stomach reallyfeeling?
And it might say oh well, I'm alittle bit hungry, but I don't
need that much, and maybesomething healthy.
I don't, because I guessemotional eating is a big
problem here.
We get stressed so we grabsomething, and that's usually
something full of sugar or acomfort food which might not be
(29:14):
healthy.
So this slower, more gentleconversation with your guts or
your tummy sounds reallypositive.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yes, so you can choose, before doing this
emotional eating, when you starthaving conversation with your
second brain, you can wake upyour body wisdom, your body
intelligence, and you are ableto unleash your unlimited
(29:45):
potential by waking up your bodyintelligence, because if you
live with your brain only or ifyou live with your mind only,
then this is so limited.
But if you make alignment ofyour body, mind, soul and spirit
, you can unleash your fullpotential and you can live so
(30:10):
energetically, which happened tome.
I was happy from before, but Ifeel like, well, this alignment
makes me so energetic and a lotof my clients experience
something similar.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Wow, it's such a easy solution to finding new energy,
this mind body, but also italso sounds like it's mind, body
and Kokoro connection, and Ithink Japanese when they say
Kokoro, it's your mind, heartand spirit as sort of one entity
(30:49):
working together.
And, yeah, we live an embodiedexperience.
We have a body and weexperienced life through our
body, our five senses, but wealso feel emotionally, we think
logically, but it's allhappening together.
So, yeah, food seems like areally good.
Our relationship with food andhow we eat seems like a really
(31:11):
good solution to control notcontrolling, but living with all
of that.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, yes, amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
And you have so much energy.
You're looking at you now andyou look, you're beaming with
joy and happiness.
So this we all can, Okay, Well,let's find out how.
So how can we practice Zeneating?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yes, I'd like to offer everyone, by introducing
three steps of practicing Zeneating, if it sounds something
doable, easy to do.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
First, I invite you to turn off your mobile at your
dining table or keep your mobilein different room so that you
don't have to put your effort toconstantly or focus on your
eating.
You automatically can focus.
(32:13):
And second step is put yourhands together, palms together,
before and after eating.
So take one moment, take a pose, and you may also want to say
Itadakimasu, which means Ihumbly received before eating,
(32:34):
and gochisousamadeshita, thankyou for the food and everyone
who involved.
So if this prayer helps you,otherwise you can do one
breathing, deep breathing,before eating and after eating.
And if you are having monkeymind and you want to start
(32:55):
eating right, like immediately,then you can start doing after
eating, this hand together aftereating.
So it might be easier for youto apply if you have very busy
life.
Start from after eating, handstogether after finishing your
meal.
And third point is bitintermediate.
(33:20):
I recommend you to smell beforedrinking your tea, before eating
your meal, your snack or sweet,whatever.
Smell is so powerful.
Smelling is really powerful.
By smelling you can open upyour body and once your body
(33:43):
open up, it will guide you tothis sense of oneness,
connectivity you can open up bysmelling a cup of tea.
You can open up your fivesenses and you remember that you
have body and that thesensation of body open up your
(34:04):
body wisdom.
So remind yourself that youhave body is first step.
So these three steps, how doesit sound?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I think it's wonderful and I think one of the
most powerful lessons I learnedfrom living in Japan, I think,
was Kimari Monk, like these setexpressions and cultural
practices.
So yeah, they're just littlegestures but they're very
meaningful.
So saying itarikimasu andgochisousamadeshita before and
(34:36):
after a meal, if you do itproperly and with feeling, does
make a difference and youincrease your.
It's like, it increases yourwellbeing because you're being
grateful for what you'rereceiving and then you're
acknowledging again I'm gratefulfor what I've just eaten.
It's a very powerful conceptand we do it at home here, but
(35:00):
it also reminds me of the wordin a way like chantosuru.
So it's kind of like eatingproperly, like eats with care,
eat with gratitude and, beforeyou eat, even be thankful and
the idea of smelling.
That could be a really goodreminder to slow down.
(35:23):
Yeah so that's obviously what itis to slow down, smell the food
and make you be more present.
It actually makes me think.
One of the things I know aboutJapanese food is it's not
overpowering food, it's notstrongly tasting food, but
(35:44):
there's a beautiful subtlety toJapanese taste and I guess if
you're more present you thentaste the food and the
deliciousness and thewholesomeness of Japanese food,
because I form this impressionthat Japanese don't only eat for
taste, they eat for how thefood feels in their body and the
(36:05):
satisfaction.
And I think that's why you havethe expression like
harahachi-bunme, like eats to80%, whereas maybe in Australia
and the West we're driven bytaste and so a lot of our foods
very sweet or very salty, verystrong flavours, because we need
that, because we're not mindful, we're not present, and so we
(36:29):
have to put more taste into ourfood to enjoy it.
So it's really interesting howjust being mindful connects you
deeply to taste.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's really interesting that the component
of satisfaction I think Western,as you said, like Western or
Pangee taste food can givesatisfaction.
I wouldn't say that likesurface, but the component of
satisfaction, how structured?
(37:02):
How do you structure yoursatisfaction?
And if you rely on taste only,then maybe your body, your whole
existence, or I would suggestyou to see the satisfaction from
your whole existence or wholebody, so that the food that you
(37:24):
want to eat may be different byseeing the satisfaction from
wholeness.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
It's a different state.
We're in a different.
It's like we're changing ourstate from one of reactive,
anxious hungry to still beinghungry, but present and mindful
and aware.
So it sounds like this Zeneating is a solution to a lot of
(37:52):
our problems where we're eatingon the go, we are very
compulsive, and then we don'tchew properly, and then, because
we don't chew properly, wedon't even taste the food
properly and then we probablyovereat.
So do you think Zen eating is asolution to these bad habits or
(38:13):
this fast lifestyle we livetoday?
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Pretty much so, yes, and I'd like to break down into
three steps again.
So, first, if you realize, ifyou notice that you do binge
eating or you have anxiety,that's first step.
And I'd like to encourage youto be aware and be acknowledged
(38:40):
and embrace that, the fact thatyou could pay attention to that
realization instead of blamingyourself.
Being like so having anxiety isnot something that you blame
yourself, but be aware andembrace that fact.
(39:01):
The second step is take a poseand to listen to your body.
Your body is amazing.
Your body has intelligence,your body has wisdom.
So ask your body what your bodyneeds now and so that you can
connect with your internalwisdom and trust your body a
little more, so that yourinternal wisdom will guide you
(39:25):
to the place that you need to be.
And third step is be playfuland be curious.
Whatever you experience somenegative feelings as well,
negative emotions as well.
That's something that you canbe curious with what is
(39:45):
happening inside of me, and youcan be playful later on, maybe
having those difficult moments.
So I think these three steps,you can build up this
relationship with yourself andothers surrounding environment
(40:08):
by practicing zen eating, so youcan apply in this way in your
life as well, and so, as aresult, I think internal
transformation may change yourchoice and behaviors.
Yes, it will be gradual shift,yet radical shift.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
It actually sounds like a type of self care that
has amazing benefittransformational benefit not
just to your health and body,but maybe even to your
relationships.
You're thinking of the greaterworld, because mindfulness.
(40:50):
Yeah so it's quite amazing.
I was just going to say we havea chance to do it every day,
like two or three times.
Today we have a chance topractice this.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Totally, totally.
And I wanted to add to, as asolution for bad eating habit or
binge eating, I would suggestyou not to force to stop eating
snacks or binge eating.
You don't have to forceyourself to stop it, it doesn't
help to change your dietactually.
(41:23):
And also don't become a victimof modern life, stress life, but
create peace in our life byyourself or with the help of
this connectivity.
And also don't hate thesymptoms.
But each time you eat you cantune into joy and bliss and
(41:45):
remember how miracle it is thatyou're eating something
beautiful, the fruit of theplanet, and your body is fruit
of the planet as well.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Well, actually I've got a question later on, but
I'll ask it now.
Can you practice sin eatingwith junk food?
Speaker 1 (42:07):
That's interesting question.
What do you think, Nick?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
I think you can because it might help you.
First you might have theenjoyment and think, oh, you
know, this is why I like thisjunk food.
But maybe your body might letyou know OK, this tastes good,
but this is not good for me,it's not good for us, it's not
good for our body.
(42:32):
So maybe being more mindful ofeating junk food might start
that conversation where youeventually switch to something
that will ultimately help yourbody.
So I like that approach.
We don't have to say all right,only do is an eating with
healthy food.
We can say just just stop beingmindful and practice sin eating
(42:55):
and it might take you towards abetter, healthier relationship
with your body and food.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Totally, totally agree.
That's why I said internaltransformation may change your
behavior, your choices.
You can have healthier choicesor sustainable choice,
regenerative choices orecological behaviors by changing
(43:26):
your attitude, changing yourperception, not by force I have
to change doesn't help you.
But your internaltransformation will change your
external choices as well.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, I mean.
A Western interpretation ofthis might be like slow eating.
I think I've heard theexpression of slow food, but
it's probably beneficial to eatslowly, meaning eat mindfully,
eat with presence, eat withgratitude, and so slow eating
might be the answer to fast food, because eventually you'll stop
(44:07):
eating fast food.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Slowness is fast, easy step to be aware.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
All right.
Well, I have an interestingquestion, and I learned this
from Ken Moggy it's probablyrelated to what we're discussing
and it was something I'd neverheard before, despite living in
Japan for so long, like 10 years.
So he introduced me to thisconcept of konai choumi cooking
in the mouth and this is whereyou add rice to your mouth, keep
(44:38):
the rice in your mouth, andthen you add something else it
could be a pickle, or a piece offish or a vegetable and then
you chew it all together and mixit up in your mouth and it's
like you're creating a new dishin your mouth.
So do you practice this withZen eating?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Interesting to hear about it.
I like Ken Moggy.
I met him once.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
He's amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
He's amazing and yes, so my shortest answer is
Japanese like to sense subtlechange.
So by doing konai choumicooking in your mouth, by doing
this, you can experiencedifferent tastes each and every
(45:31):
bite.
I think that's why we inventedthis way of eating, and so I
just came back from India.
Last week I went to Saffin Gearand you may know that they use
banana leaf to eat food and Isaw them mixing everything up
(45:57):
soup, rice, pickles, boiledvegetables, everything mixed
before start eating, and part ofme enjoyed the new culture of
eating by mixing everything, andpart of me said like wow, if
you mix them up, every singlebite will taste really similar.
(46:21):
So that's something that Ifound Japanese-ness like subtle
change.
We enjoy subtle change, andthis subtleness is a key point,
a key factor to understandJapanese culture.
You may think rice is tastelessor rice is too bland to eat
(46:46):
only, but I strongly believethat rice is tasteful and yeah,
so this subtle change, subtleflavor, subtle aroma, the
awareness of subtleness is thereason that we enjoy cooking in
your mouth.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
This is a beautiful aspect of Japanese culture, this
observance of subtlety, and youdo it with nature, you do it
with food, and I do rememberwhen I first went to Japan
actually the second time I wentto Japan to work and I was
teaching English, and I'd beteaching basic English and one
of the most common questionswould be oh, what's your
(47:28):
favorite food?
And many Japanese would sayrice.
And my initial reaction waswhat, like rice?
So for us, I mean, rice can bequite bland, yes, and tasteless.
In the West, and we don't eatit that much, our quality of
rice is probably average, but Ido love Japanese rice.
(47:50):
When I eat rice in Japan, thereis a difference and it's quite
satisfying, just eating a goodbowl of rice.
It feels good.
There is a difference textureand there is a subtle taste to
it.
And sometimes Australians willadd a soy sauce to plain rice
(48:13):
and it's like overkill.
You're sort of killing theflavor with too much salt.
But yeah, the idea ofappreciating subtlety is
something I learnt in Japan andagain it takes us back to being
present, to mindfulness, whichis very powerful.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Nick, could you allow me to add one more thing about
Konaijoum?
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Yes, please.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Do you know the concept of Zen garden?
This Zen garden is inducingyour imagination.
It seems like tasteless orbland because it doesn't have
beautiful roses, or it iscompleted by you.
(49:02):
You are co-creator of thegarden.
It's the concept of Zen gardenwhich is what I understand about
Zen garden.
You view the dry rocks and thenyou observe it.
You see it and then youperceive it.
That's when Zen garden complete, but Western garden is already
(49:27):
completed by landscape designer.
So Konaijoumi, cooking in themouth, has something similar.
If it has something similar,it's interesting.
I think it's finally completedinside of your mouth.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
That is interesting and that also reminds me of an
expression I learnt from aresearcher, dr Yasuhiro Kutira
Sensei, who lives in England andhe's been on the podcast.
He introduced me to the idea orthe concept that in Japan,
weeds are valued because weedshave this resilience and
(50:14):
strengths, and he introduced meto the concept like the tenacity
of weeds, and so it was sopowerful.
Because in the West we want toweed out all the weeds of our
garden, whereas in Japan I'm notsure to what degree, but weeds
are recognized for theirresilience and for their
(50:34):
tenacity to come back andthey're a natural part of a
garden and they have benefits toa garden.
So that's this deeper level ofthinking and understanding.
And in the West perhaps you'reright we landscape for only one
perspective of beauty.
(50:55):
So there, is so much to learnfrom Japanese culture.
It's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, hey, it's Nick here.
I hope you are enjoying thisconversation.
No, moe san and I will continuethis conversation on Zen eating
in the next episode.
It's interesting that you mentioned, like this house,
is Zen or.
Yes, I often hear thoseperspectives which I don't have
any strong opinion on it,towards it.
But I may have differentperspectives, different
understanding from thoseteachings that you find in Zen
(00:23):
temples or in Zen books.
And I am a big fan of Zenbecause of two reasons First is
joy and the second is oneness.
I define Zen Buddhism as joyand oneness.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
My guest today on episode 79 of the Ikegai Podcast
is Mamawe, the author of ZenEating, a well-being advisor and
researcher at Chiyo Universityin Japan.
Mamawe wrote the book ZenEating a Japanese mindful
practice for well-being and truefulfillment, and in Japanese
(01:18):
that is Zen Eating Sekai gamitometa shiawase no tabekata.
And.
Mamawe wrote this book lastyear, and it introduces a new
meditation-based practice forsupporting the well-being of
busy people around the worldthrough conscious eating.
Educated in Japan, egypt andIndia, mamawe has delivered Zen
(01:39):
Eating workshops to thousands ofparticipants in over 30
countries globally, and herclients include companies such
as Google, mckenzie, accenture,panasonic, mitsui, fujitsu and
Salesforce, as well as manyuniversities like Imperial
College and India Institute ofTechnology.
(02:02):
Mamawe conducts originalresearch into comparative
happiness, zen, japanese cultureand spirituality.
Mamawe's mission is to invitepeople to tune into joy and
bliss.
Mamawe, thank you for joiningme today.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Hello Nick, and hello everyone, delighted to be on
your podcast and look forward totalk about Zen.
Talk about Zen Eating under thecontext of Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, exciting.
So with that, would you like toshare a little background and
share your journey to becoming aZen Eating guide.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Of course.
So I am sharing how to eat now,which is like conscious eating.
But to come to here I had likelong journey.
I have been meditating for 10years, based on Zen, zazen
meditation and other many typesof meditation, and I was born in
(03:10):
Japan, the countryside of Japanwith mountain, like North
countryside of Japan and mygrandparents.
They have a mountain andsurrounded by wild vegetables,
wild plants, and without knowingthey have disconnectedness,
(03:31):
they have disconnected life.
But I grew up in Tokyo so I wasalways admiring them, like how
beautiful their life is.
But I'm having this urban lifewhich I like.
So I decided to work for awellness department, a luxury
resort hotel in Japan, and I washappy that I was able to have
(03:57):
wellness moment with my clients,guests at that resort.
But at the same time I wasworking too much, overworking,
and I burned out.
I had to quit my job because ofmy health condition and that
was challenging for me.
(04:17):
I was working for wellness, butmy own wellness.
I didn't have time to take careof my own wellness and I moved
to India and decided to live inIndia for one and a half year to
two years and I learned Indiantraditional medicine, which
called Ayurveda and Indiannutrition, how to make balanced
(04:42):
diet for your body according toyour body condition, your body
type.
Which was fascinating.
And the reason that I startedlearning about this nutrition
was my mother overcame from thechronic illness which is called
rheumatoid arthritis by changingher diet to healthier vegetable
(05:05):
oriented or less artificialthings.
And so I realized, wow, what toeat and health is so strongly
related.
So I thought that nutrition issomething really important for
me and for everyone.
That's why I went intonutrition and diet healthy diet.
(05:28):
But I realized that as I becamemore healthy diet geek, I
realized I was far from happystate because I was so
judgmental like I cannot eatthis and you should not eat this
.
And at that point I realizedthat how to eat, or mindset
(05:52):
while eating, is as important aswhat you eat.
So I came back to thismeditational approach which I
started when I lost my father byhelicopter accident at the age
of 14, I was 14 years old.
So I met Zen and Zen helped meso much so I integrated Zen and
(06:18):
this eating and I startedsharing how to do it, how to
practice it with people, withcompanies.
So that's how I started Zeneating.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Well, thank you for sharing all that, and I'm
assuming this is a dailypractice for you, so this is a
bit of a joke question.
But what did you have forbreakfast today and how slowly
or mindfully did you eat yourbreakfast today?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So, to be honest with you, I didn't have anything for
breakfast.
I just have had a cup of hotwater, which I do drink every
day, and I love drinking hotwater because I feel my body
gets relaxed by drinking it.
But the point is how much youbecome aware of your bodily
(07:13):
reaction.
So that's what I always value.
That's important for me and Ithink that's important for you
too.
But usually I try to eatconsciously anytime, but maybe
externally I may eat as fast asyou are, but I try to maintain
(07:39):
this conscious level regardlessof this speed.
That's how I practice in dailylife, but I will talk about how
to practice later, maybe.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yes, so that's a good point.
I think we need to start withsome foundation.
And this is how you define Zenand, as you know, many Japanese
words become misunderstood orappropriated in the West and I
think Zen is maybe understood bysome, but misunderstood.
(08:11):
I think a lot of people use Zenas an adjective and saying this
house is very Zen or something.
But yes, and it's a bit strange, it's probably a bit strange.
They relate it to design orarchitecture or to aesthetic.
So how do you define Zen?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yes.
So it's interesting that youmentioned, like this house, is
Zen or?
Yes, I often hear thoseperspectives which I don't have
any strong opinion on it.
But I may have differentperspectives, different
understanding from thoseteachings that you find in Zen
(08:59):
temples or in Zen books.
And I am a big fan of Zenbecause of two reasons first is
joy and the second is oneness.
So I define Zen Buddhism as joyand oneness.
So joy means ultimate joywithout condition, and Zen
(09:23):
teaches you to know that youalready have enough in your
hands if you pay attention towhat you have in your hands.
So this fulfillment or thiscontentment gives you this
enoughness and joyful wife, sothat you realize, I realized,
(09:46):
wow, today being here is heavenand this sense of joy I learned
from or I learned through ZenBuddhism and oneness.
I found this beautifulexplanation in the book written
(10:07):
by DT Suzuki, daisetsu Suzuki.
Have you heard about him?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I think he introduced Zen to America.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yes, in the 50s, and so he explained about oneness by
using this metaphor, by usingthis explanation.
In Japanese, nature and selfuses same letter and that letter
shows the same meaning and inJapanese myself, is already part
(10:39):
of nature, in the languageitself, that sense of oneness.
Because we feel pain byexperiencing separation, divided
.
We feel happiness byexperiencing connected or sense
of oneness.
So if you bring back thisconnection with the nature or
(11:05):
part of nature, that you arepart of nature, you're part of
cycle, then this sense ofoneness will bring you ultimate
blissfulness in your life.
That's what I have learned fromZen, buddhism.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, that's a powerful lesson, and I think
you're right we're alwayscraving and seeking more than we
really need and we sufferbecause of that, because we're
always wanting more and we'renever satisfied.
But you're right, we have morethan enough.
It's important to be present,to find contentment in what we
(11:44):
already have, and I love thatidea of nature and that it seems
like we've lost our connectionto nature and we suffer because
of that as well.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So we try to unnaturally control nature,
maybe sometimes, but it doesn'twork.
So we should know that we arepart of nature and that leads us
.
Our consciousness, ourcollective consciousness as
human being, our collectiveconsciousness should, finally
(12:17):
should be shifted now, and sothat we will be able to tune
into endless, unlimitedprosperity which is continuously
given by this planet earth,nature.
And so we can learn from Zenhow to create the next standard
(12:39):
of prosperity withoutexploitation, and that
prosperity doesn't mean money,but that prosperity is unlimited
.
And this is how we can learn inmodern life, how we can learn
from Zen, I think.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
I like it.
I like this idea of onenesswith nature and, I guess,
connection with others, andthat's something I think we're
missing in the modern world.
We don't consider nature as apillar of health and we're
connecting less with people.
We tend to connect more onlinethan we do in person and we seem
(13:21):
to have all these problems ofloneliness and sadness and
depression.
So I think you're right, wehave everything we need, we're
just ignoring what we need andchasing unrealistic ideas of
what we think is prosperity.
As you mentioned, we might bechasing money or wealth or
(13:44):
success, but if we maybe if westop, we would realize, oh, I
already have a lot I can begrateful for.
So that's a really interestingperspective of Zen.
So I've never heard anyonedescribe it as like that.
I think we definitely associateto meditation and mindfulness
(14:07):
and maybe being almost beingalone, like Zen's often
described as something you dowith meditation and you have it
with your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So Well, I totally agree with that.
But through meditation we willtune into joy and bliss.
That's how I'm understandingand that's, I think, how people
can apply Zen into this modernlifestyle.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, with that, let's talk about how you have
applied Zen to eating.
So what is Zen eating?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yes, zen eating is the way you eat.
It's mindful eating, but it'sinspired by Japanese Zen
Buddhism and it's going beyond,like it goes beyond more than
mindful eating, so that,ultimately, I'd love you to
experience this connectivitythat we were talking now, the
(15:08):
sense of oneness with this, withthe planet, and so, through
eating one grain of rice, if youimagine where this rice came
from, how many people wereinvolved to your one meal, and
so you may imagine soil, the sun, water, rain, air, and if you
(15:32):
imagine the generations, you cantrace back many generations.
This rice, one grain of rice,is a baby seed, and this baby
had father and mother, and thatfather and mother had father and
mother, so you can trace backmaybe 4.2 billion years old.
(15:53):
Yeah, because there are no gapin between.
So connectivity in thedimension of space and dimension
of time, and it goes to futureforward as well.
So this sense of oneness that weare living in a cycle is really
(16:18):
important, I think, toexperience through Zen eating.
In order to experience thisoneness, I suggest you to open
up your body first.
When I offer workshops orexperience practice of Zen
(16:39):
eating, I usually start withasking you to smell or touch
with your hands.
So if you open your five senses, our body is usually sleeping
and we don't pay much attentionto our five senses or internal
perception, which is like yourstomach senses.
(17:03):
So that's the gateway to openup your body and bring back the
connection with your body willlead you to bring back the
connection with the planet.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Wow, that is fascinating.
It actually reminded me of thetime when my family, so when we
moved back from Japan toMelbourne and my son was quite
young and we were looking thingsto do in our community, we
actually found a Chan BuddhismCenter, so a Chinese and
(17:42):
Buddhism Center, and we startedvolunteering there and they used
to offer us meals and when wewere given the meals we were
told we had to sit separately,not talk, face Buddha and eat
mindfully.
And so it was quite.
(18:03):
First it was quite amusing.
So I'd be sitting somewhere, myson would be behind me
somewhere, my wife would be inanother corner of this big room
and we're kind of, you know, I'dbe looking at my son and
smiling.
But we really had to payattention to only the experience
of eating and obviously havefeelings of appreciation, eating
everything and yet trying tosavour the food too thoughtfully
(18:30):
and be very present in that,almost like a ritual, like
really only eating.
And it was quite powerful and Ireally began to enjoy it, the
idea of I don't have to talk, Idon't have to think about other
things, I can try and connect tothe food.
(18:50):
So I guess, yeah, throughconnecting through food, we are
connecting to something largeand, like you're right, who was
involved in making this food?
How was nature involved?
And that can extend beyond ourplanet, I guess.
So if we go far back enough, sothat's interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Oh, so interesting.
I'd like to add the beautifulcomments that you shared.
Now you can amuse byexperiencing solitude, but that
solitude is not loneliness.
You deeply connect withyourself and with food in front
(19:34):
of you, and when you fullyconnect with yourself and this
food, then you realise that youcannot be alone, never be alone.
Everything is always connectedor interrelated.
So eating quietly is amusing.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
That is amusing.
So the idea of eating quietlyand in solitude yeah, that it is
amusing is amusing, but it is.
It is right.
I think it might take a whileto get accustomed to, but it's
also relaxing and it kind ofnourishes your spirit and your
soul, as well as your mind andbody.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yes, thank you for mentioning it.
I forgot to talk about soul,spirit nourishment.
So a lot of my clients orguests that experience them
eating usually say wow, theyrealize food is not fuel to your
body but it's the totalnourishment to your existence,
(20:44):
your entire existence, soul,spirit and good.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I think so, and this is kind of crazy because we you
know, most of us eat two orthree times a day.
We're often snacking, we'reeating on the go.
So it's something we do everyday, but we don't optimize the
experience or we don't give theexperience enough care and time.
So this is obviously whatyou're promoting, to think.
(21:10):
Suzuki said this.
Like Suzuki sensei said, whenyou eat, just eat, and when you
do that first, there's someresistance with your mind and
your jumping from all thesethoughts and what you have to do
and what happened yesterday orwhatever.
But we practice you can almostlose time in eating slowly.
(21:34):
So it's not something serious,is it?
It's something almost relaxing,and you actually describe it to
be playful while eating and touse fresh eyes.
So I think we should emphasize.
It's not like oh, you have tomeditate while you're eating and
it's something serious.
You describe it as something asplayful, so would you like to
(21:55):
touch on that?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Sure, playfulness is really important.
As, then, practitioners oranyone, we tend to think things
seriously or too seriously, andI am the person who takes things
(22:18):
seriously, and so I lovemeditation, I love any kind of
mindful practices, but I alwaysfind it really difficult to make
it habituated.
So, after doing some meditationcalls or something I can do,
(22:41):
meditation every morningproperly, sitting properly,
maybe for one month, and thenafter a while I usually do this,
and so I started hating my.
This always gave up and I feltthat, oh well, like I eat every
(23:03):
day twice or three times and Ican practice meditation through
eating, it's something that Ican do as well.
So I started eating withplayfulness, so with using
having fresh eyes.
Wow, this structure is supposedlike I'm drinking hot water and
(23:28):
you can be drinking this hotwater as like first time, so
that you may be aware of manythings through drinking just hot
water temperature where thiswater came from, river, cloud,
rain, and it goes back to theocean after you.
(23:51):
Wow, this water has this cycleand I'm living in this cycle and
I'm sensing it.
How wonderful that I have fivesenses.
How wonderful that I don't haveto command my internal organs
to process it without knowing it, without me knowing it, my
internal organ does everythingthat I need, and so how miracle
(24:15):
it is that you can be notknowing it.
So those playfulness is reallyimportant than knowing
accurately where this came from.
You don't have to know, maybeyou can, but you don't have to.
So playfulness than accuracy.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Playfulness over accuracy.
I mean, I see the wonder in you.
You're like, oh, like, justimagining what was involved with
this cup of water.
How did it get here?
And there is a cycle and thereis a journey of that water, but
it doesn't end with you, itstill continues with you.
So we don't think about that atall.
(24:58):
I don't know, but you do.
But maybe I'll start to thinkabout that now after this
discussion.
And, of course, as childrenwe're told you know, don't play
with your food.
But I like this idea of havingalmost like, a playful mind and
oh, yeah, seeing things are newagain with your food and, yeah,
(25:22):
being it's like in awe of thefood.
How did it?
How did it get to me?
I guess that makes you morepresent, yes, and being present
is very powerful.
So would you say this practicehas helped you be more present
in other areas of your life.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Totally 100%.
Yeah, I'm sure it has.
Yes, Like this is not one timepractice, but it's lifelong
practice, as we eat every day,till the end of the day, until
the end of our life.
So this lifelong practice ishelping me as a practitioner.
(26:05):
As one of the practitioners, Ican apply this sense of wonder
or how miracle that thesefunctions like this.
So this sense of appreciationnothing is granted this kind of
attitude is helping me to turninto joy and bliss on all front
(26:32):
in my life.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Well, that is obviously one of the benefits of
zen eating, so would you liketo share other benefits of zen
eating?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Sure Benefits of zen eating.
It is a good question.
So, yes, there are so manybenefits.
Easiest one is physical benefit.
Like people who come to me topractice zen eating, some people
has problem with obesity orwant to lose weight.
(27:07):
They obviously can be moreaware of how they eat, how much
they eat.
So say, for example, when youplace your hands on your stomach
which I usually recommend toeveryone and then ask your
stomach how much you want to eatnow, the amount that you want
(27:29):
to eat today may be differentfrom yesterday.
So you always ask your bodyeach and every time, so that you
can be having friendly attitudeto your body.
So you start not hating yourbody, even if you think that you
are chubby, but you starthaving this friendly
(27:51):
relationship with your body and,as well as your food, friendly
relationship with your food.
So rebuild that relationshipwith food, with your body and,
as a result, with your life aswell.
That's physical benefit andmental benefit as well.
Joyous calmness, playfulnessand feeling connection.
(28:18):
Living in connectivity willgive you ultimate calmness, deep
calmness, with joy.
So that's, I think, some of thebenefits.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, that's really interesting about the
conversation with your tummybecause I think I learned in
Japan that Japanese see the gutas a second brain of the body,
so it's like two brains having aconversation.
That's a very non-threateningway to think.
(28:54):
What is my stomach reallyfeeling?
And it might say oh well, I'm alittle bit hungry, but I don't
need that much, and maybesomething healthy.
I don't, because I guessemotional eating is a big
problem here.
We get stressed so we grabsomething, and that's usually
something full of sugar or acomfort food which might not be
(29:14):
healthy.
So this slower, more gentleconversation with your guts or
your tummy sounds reallypositive.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yes, so you can choose, before doing this
emotional eating, when you starthaving conversation with your
second brain, you can wake upyour body wisdom, your body
intelligence, and you are ableto unleash your unlimited
(29:45):
potential by waking up your bodyintelligence, because if you
live with your brain only or ifyou live with your mind only,
then this is so limited.
But if you make alignment ofyour body, mind, soul and spirit
, you can unleash your fullpotential and you can live so
(30:10):
energetically, which happened tome.
I was happy from before, but Ifeel like, well, this alignment
makes me so energetic and a lotof my clients experience
something similar.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Wow, it's such a easy solution to finding new energy,
this mind body, but also italso sounds like it's mind, body
and Kokoro connection, and Ithink Japanese when they say
Kokoro, it's your mind, heartand spirit as sort of one entity
(30:49):
working together.
And, yeah, we live an embodiedexperience.
We have a body and weexperienced life through our
body, our five senses, but wealso feel emotionally, we think
logically, but it's allhappening together.
So, yeah, food seems like areally good.
Our relationship with food andhow we eat seems like a really
(31:11):
good solution to control notcontrolling, but living with all
of that.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, yes, amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
And you have so much energy.
You're looking at you now andyou look, you're beaming with
joy and happiness.
So this we all can, Okay, Well,let's find out how.
So how can we practice Zeneating?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yes, I'd like to offer everyone, by introducing
three steps of practicing Zeneating, if it sounds something
doable, easy to do.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Sounds good.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
First, I invite you to turn off your mobile at your
dining table or keep your mobilein different room so that you
don't have to put your effort toconstantly or focus on your
eating.
You automatically can focus.
(32:13):
And second step is put yourhands together, palms together,
before and after eating.
So take one moment, take a pose, and you may also want to say
Itadakimasu, which means Ihumbly received before eating,
(32:34):
and gochisousamadeshita, thankyou for the food and everyone
who involved.
So if this prayer helps you,otherwise you can do one
breathing, deep breathing,before eating and after eating.
And if you are having monkeymind and you want to start
(32:55):
eating right, like immediately,then you can start doing after
eating, this hand together aftereating.
So it might be easier for youto apply if you have very busy
life.
Start from after eating, handstogether after finishing your
meal.
And third point is bitintermediate.
(33:20):
I recommend you to smell beforedrinking your tea, before eating
your meal, your snack or sweet,whatever.
Smell is so powerful.
Smelling is really powerful.
By smelling you can open upyour body and once your body
(33:43):
open up, it will guide you tothis sense of oneness,
connectivity you can open up bysmelling a cup of tea.
You can open up your fivesenses and you remember that you
have body and that thesensation of body open up your
(34:04):
body wisdom.
So remind yourself that youhave body is first step.
So these three steps, how doesit sound?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I think it's wonderful and I think one of the
most powerful lessons I learnedfrom living in Japan, I think,
was Kimari Monk, like these setexpressions and cultural
practices.
So yeah, they're just littlegestures but they're very
meaningful.
So saying itarikimasu andgochisousamadeshita before and
(34:36):
after a meal, if you do itproperly and with feeling, does
make a difference and youincrease your.
It's like, it increases yourwellbeing because you're being
grateful for what you'rereceiving and then you're
acknowledging again I'm gratefulfor what I've just eaten.
It's a very powerful conceptand we do it at home here, but
(35:00):
it also reminds me of the wordin a way like chantosuru.
So it's kind of like eatingproperly, like eats with care,
eat with gratitude and, beforeyou eat, even be thankful and
the idea of smelling.
That could be a really goodreminder to slow down.
(35:23):
Yeah so that's obviously what itis to slow down, smell the food
and make you be more present.
It actually makes me think.
One of the things I know aboutJapanese food is it's not
overpowering food, it's notstrongly tasting food, but
(35:44):
there's a beautiful subtlety toJapanese taste and I guess if
you're more present you thentaste the food and the
deliciousness and thewholesomeness of Japanese food,
because I form this impressionthat Japanese don't only eat for
taste, they eat for how thefood feels in their body and the
(36:05):
satisfaction.
And I think that's why you havethe expression like
harahachi-bunme, like eats to80%, whereas maybe in Australia
and the West we're driven bytaste and so a lot of our foods
very sweet or very salty, verystrong flavours, because we need
that, because we're not mindful, we're not present, and so we
(36:29):
have to put more taste into ourfood to enjoy it.
So it's really interesting howjust being mindful connects you
deeply to taste.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's really interesting that the component
of satisfaction I think Western,as you said, like Western or
Pangee taste food can givesatisfaction.
I wouldn't say that likesurface, but the component of
satisfaction, how structured?
(37:02):
How do you structure yoursatisfaction?
And if you rely on taste only,then maybe your body, your whole
existence, or I would suggestyou to see the satisfaction from
your whole existence or wholebody, so that the food that you
(37:24):
want to eat may be different byseeing the satisfaction from
wholeness.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
It's a different state.
We're in a different.
It's like we're changing ourstate from one of reactive,
anxious hungry to still beinghungry, but present and mindful
and aware.
So it sounds like this Zeneating is a solution to a lot of
(37:52):
our problems where we're eatingon the go, we are very
compulsive, and then we don'tchew properly, and then, because
we don't chew properly, wedon't even taste the food
properly and then we probablyovereat.
So do you think Zen eating is asolution to these bad habits or
(38:13):
this fast lifestyle we livetoday?
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Pretty much so, yes, and I'd like to break down into
three steps again.
So, first, if you realize, ifyou notice that you do binge
eating or you have anxiety,that's first step.
And I'd like to encourage youto be aware and be acknowledged
(38:40):
and embrace that, the fact thatyou could pay attention to that
realization instead of blamingyourself.
Being like so having anxiety isnot something that you blame
yourself, but be aware andembrace that fact.
(39:01):
The second step is take a poseand to listen to your body.
Your body is amazing.
Your body has intelligence,your body has wisdom.
So ask your body what your bodyneeds now and so that you can
connect with your internalwisdom and trust your body a
little more, so that yourinternal wisdom will guide you
(39:25):
to the place that you need to be.
And third step is be playfuland be curious.
Whatever you experience somenegative feelings as well,
negative emotions as well.
That's something that you canbe curious with what is
(39:45):
happening inside of me, and youcan be playful later on, maybe
having those difficult moments.
So I think these three steps,you can build up this
relationship with yourself andothers surrounding environment
(40:08):
by practicing zen eating, so youcan apply in this way in your
life as well, and so, as aresult, I think internal
transformation may change yourchoice and behaviors.
Yes, it will be gradual shift,yet radical shift.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
It actually sounds like a type of self care that
has amazing benefittransformational benefit not
just to your health and body,but maybe even to your
relationships.
You're thinking of the greaterworld, because mindfulness.
(40:50):
Yeah so it's quite amazing.
I was just going to say we havea chance to do it every day,
like two or three times.
Today we have a chance topractice this.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Totally, totally.
And I wanted to add to, as asolution for bad eating habit or
binge eating, I would suggestyou not to force to stop eating
snacks or binge eating.
You don't have to forceyourself to stop it, it doesn't
help to change your dietactually.
(41:23):
And also don't become a victimof modern life, stress life, but
create peace in our life byyourself or with the help of
this connectivity.
And also don't hate thesymptoms.
But each time you eat you cantune into joy and bliss and
(41:45):
remember how miracle it is thatyou're eating something
beautiful, the fruit of theplanet, and your body is fruit
of the planet as well.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Well, actually I've got a question later on, but
I'll ask it now.
Can you practice sin eatingwith junk food?
Speaker 1 (42:07):
That's interesting question.
What do you think, Nick?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
I think you can because it might help you.
First you might have theenjoyment and think, oh, you
know, this is why I like thisjunk food.
But maybe your body might letyou know OK, this tastes good,
but this is not good for me,it's not good for us, it's not
good for our body.
(42:32):
So maybe being more mindful ofeating junk food might start
that conversation where youeventually switch to something
that will ultimately help yourbody.
So I like that approach.
We don't have to say all right,only do is an eating with
healthy food.
We can say just just stop beingmindful and practice sin eating
(42:55):
and it might take you towards abetter, healthier relationship
with your body and food.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Totally, totally agree.
That's why I said internaltransformation may change your
behavior, your choices.
You can have healthier choicesor sustainable choice,
regenerative choices orecological behaviors by changing
(43:26):
your attitude, changing yourperception, not by force I have
to change doesn't help you.
But your internaltransformation will change your
external choices as well.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, I mean.
A Western interpretation ofthis might be like slow eating.
I think I've heard theexpression of slow food, but
it's probably beneficial to eatslowly, meaning eat mindfully,
eat with presence, eat withgratitude, and so slow eating
might be the answer to fast food, because eventually you'll stop
(44:07):
eating fast food.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Slowness is fast, easy step to be aware.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
All right.
Well, I have an interestingquestion, and I learned this
from Ken Moggy it's probablyrelated to what we're discussing
and it was something I'd neverheard before, despite living in
Japan for so long, like 10 years.
So he introduced me to thisconcept of konai choumi cooking
in the mouth and this is whereyou add rice to your mouth, keep
(44:38):
the rice in your mouth, andthen you add something else it
could be a pickle, or a piece offish or a vegetable and then
you chew it all together and mixit up in your mouth and it's
like you're creating a new dishin your mouth.
So do you practice this withZen eating?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Interesting to hear about it.
I like Ken Moggy.
I met him once.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
He's amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
He's amazing and yes, so my shortest answer is
Japanese like to sense subtlechange.
So by doing konai choumicooking in your mouth, by doing
this, you can experiencedifferent tastes each and every
(45:31):
bite.
I think that's why we inventedthis way of eating, and so I
just came back from India.
Last week I went to Saffin Gearand you may know that they use
banana leaf to eat food and Isaw them mixing everything up
(45:57):
soup, rice, pickles, boiledvegetables, everything mixed
before start eating, and part ofme enjoyed the new culture of
eating by mixing everything, andpart of me said like wow, if
you mix them up, every singlebite will taste really similar.
(46:21):
So that's something that Ifound Japanese-ness like subtle
change.
We enjoy subtle change, andthis subtleness is a key point,
a key factor to understandJapanese culture.
You may think rice is tastelessor rice is too bland to eat
(46:46):
only, but I strongly believethat rice is tasteful and yeah,
so this subtle change, subtleflavor, subtle aroma, the
awareness of subtleness is thereason that we enjoy cooking in
your mouth.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
This is a beautiful aspect of Japanese culture, this
observance of subtlety, and youdo it with nature, you do it
with food, and I do rememberwhen I first went to Japan
actually the second time I wentto Japan to work and I was
teaching English, and I'd beteaching basic English and one
of the most common questionswould be oh, what's your
(47:28):
favorite food?
And many Japanese would sayrice.
And my initial reaction waswhat, like rice?
So for us, I mean, rice can bequite bland, yes, and tasteless.
In the West, and we don't eatit that much, our quality of
rice is probably average, but Ido love Japanese rice.
(47:50):
When I eat rice in Japan, thereis a difference and it's quite
satisfying, just eating a goodbowl of rice.
It feels good.
There is a difference textureand there is a subtle taste to
it.
And sometimes Australians willadd a soy sauce to plain rice
(48:13):
and it's like overkill.
You're sort of killing theflavor with too much salt.
But yeah, the idea ofappreciating subtlety is
something I learnt in Japan andagain it takes us back to being
present, to mindfulness, whichis very powerful.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Nick, could you allow me to add one more thing about
Konaijoum?
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Yes, please.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Do you know the concept of Zen garden?
This Zen garden is inducingyour imagination.
It seems like tasteless orbland because it doesn't have
beautiful roses, or it iscompleted by you.
(49:02):
You are co-creator of thegarden.
It's the concept of Zen gardenwhich is what I understand about
Zen garden.
You view the dry rocks and thenyou observe it.
You see it and then youperceive it.
That's when Zen garden complete, but Western garden is already
(49:27):
completed by landscape designer.
So Konaijoumi, cooking in themouth, has something similar.
If it has something similar,it's interesting.
I think it's finally completedinside of your mouth.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
That is interesting and that also reminds me of an
expression I learnt from aresearcher, dr Yasuhiro Kutira
Sensei, who lives in England andhe's been on the podcast.
He introduced me to the idea orthe concept that in Japan,
weeds are valued because weedshave this resilience and
(50:14):
strengths, and he introduced meto the concept like the tenacity
of weeds, and so it was sopowerful.
Because in the West we want toweed out all the weeds of our
garden, whereas in Japan I'm notsure to what degree, but weeds
are recognized for theirresilience and for their
(50:34):
tenacity to come back andthey're a natural part of a
garden and they have benefits toa garden.
So that's this deeper level ofthinking and understanding.
And in the West perhaps you'reright we landscape for only one
perspective of beauty.
(50:55):
So there, is so much to learnfrom Japanese culture.
It's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, hey, it's Nick here.
I hope you are enjoying thisconversation.
No, moe san and I will continuethis conversation on Zen eating
in the next episode.
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