August 15, 2021 • 59 mins
Dr. Brodsky and Dr. Martin are the authors of the renowned books titled Neonatology Review. This series, well known to every neonatal trainee, is currently in its third edition. They have also published other books including Neonatology Review Images and Neonatology Review: Questions & Answers.
Dr. Dara Brodsky is an Associate Professor at Harvard Medical School. She is the Director of Education for the department of Neonatology at Beth Israel Deaconess Medial Center. She is also the Editor-in-Chief of NeoReviews.
Dr. Camilia R. Martin is an Associate Professor of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School, and the Associate Director of the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit and Director for Cross-Disciplinary Research Partnerships in the Division of Translational Research at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center Boston, MA.
You can in touch with them by email at:
Dr. Brodsky: dbrodsky@bidmc.harvard.edu
Dr. Martin: cmartin1@bidmc.harvard.edu
Their books can be purchased at the following website:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/neonatologyreview/
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As always, feel free to send us questions, comments or suggestions to our email: nicupodcast@gmail.com. You can also contact the show through instagram or twitter, @nicupodcast. Or contact Ben and Daphna directly via their twitter profiles: @drnicu and @doctordaphnamd. Papers discussed in today's episode are listed and timestamped below.
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As always, feel free to send us questions, comments, or suggestions to our email: nicupodcast@gmail.com. You can also contact the show through Instagram or Twitter, @nicupodcast. Or contact Ben and Daphna directly via their Twitter profiles: @drnicu and @doctordaphnamd. The papers discussed in today's episode are listed and timestamped on the webpage linked below.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:41):
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Daphna. How
are you today?
Daphna (00:45):
I'm doing great. I'm very excited for the guests.
Ben (00:48):
So am I so I might. So do you want to introduce our two
guests for today?
Daphna (00:53):
Sure, it would be an honor. It's really, really a
pleasure for us to have thesetwo physicians on today. We have
Dr. Dara Brodsky, who's anassociate professor at Harvard
Medical School, the director ofeducation for the Department of
neonatology at Beth IsraelDeaconess Medical Center, and
(01:14):
also the editor in chief for Neoreviews. We have Dr. Camillia.
Martin, who's also an associateprofessor at Harvard Medical
School and the associatedirector of the neonatal
intensive care unit, anddirector for cross disciplinary
research partnerships in theDivision of translational
research at Beth IsraelDeaconess Medical Center. So
thank you both for joining ustoday.
Unknown (01:36):
Oh, yeah, our pleasure.
We're looking forward to thistoo. Great to be here.
Ben (01:42):
So for the people who who are not familiar with your work,
I don't know how that would bepossible, though. You're both
achieved. research and clinicalexcellence. But the main reason
we really wanted to talk to youis because you've impacted I
think the life of every neonataltrainee by publishing a series
of Book of books, including unitand unit ology review that I
(02:04):
think was first published 18years ago, you have another set
of books, neonatology reviewimages, and your real Natalja.
review questions and answers. Soit feels like we know you
already. But in case anybody hadnot realized who you were, this
is a big deal.
Unknown (02:22):
Thank you, I think we went about it saying, you know,
what would we have liked if wewere a fellow? Right? We didn't
see what we wanted. So wecreated it.
Ben (02:32):
That's awesome. I guess I guess this was my my first
question is this dedication tomedical education. There's a
difference between puttingtogether a set of notes for your
boards that you can locallyshare with your friends and
colleagues. But to take the nextstep, really, and to say, You
know what, we're going to makethis into a series of books, and
(02:53):
we're going to publish this foreverybody to access. How does
that come about? And do youthink there's anything in your
personal backgrounds thatsteered you in that direction of
sharing a disk sort of on thissort of scale?
Cami Martin (03:06):
Right, I, I'll start and then I'll get deras
thoughts on the process. Like Isaid, you know, we really
weren't seeing what we wanted atthe time, we were studying for
the boards. Did I have anythingin my phenotype beforehand? I
think I always liked medicaleducation. I was a chief
resident. So I was used to thatsort of forum and getting to
(03:30):
distill information fortrainees. But I think also
fortunate that I was studyingwith Dara. So we were a lot of
like, in the sense that wescoured like we're we would just
scour everything write notesdown, we got together with a
plan of how to approach for theboards, and we stuck to it. And
(03:50):
I still have my boxes like bigboxes of I do too. Hundreds and
hundreds. And we would gettogether and we would share the
content. And if she created acard that I didn't have, I would
Xerox it and vice versa. And sowe had this complete set. And
then at the end, it's all youknow, after we were done, we
(04:11):
were like, You know what,nothing exists out there like
this and what we just did, and Ifelt the smartest then I am not
as smart as I was then. I wasdefinitely the smartest then. So
before we talk about why thepublication how we went about
that, let me let there and talkabout sort of how she felt at
(04:31):
the beginning.
Dara Brodsky (04:33):
No, I agree with you Kami. I had a background in
basic science where I joined alab in my second year of
fellowship and enjoyed that. ButI was always drawn to teaching,
even starting way back incollege. And I was really
(04:53):
excited when kami and I worktogether to think that we can
take this material that we hadcreated and all this work that
we had put in to give it tosomeone else in a way, and, and
to summarize everything so thatsomeone else did not need to
have to go through all that workthat we did. So that was part of
(05:13):
our impetus.
Unknown (05:15):
Also, we've probably shared a similar approach of how
we learn. I mean, again, I'm notI'm not someone with a
photographic memory, I'm notsomeone who necessarily gets it
the first round I, I sit and Ibreak it down into little steps
so that not only can Iunderstand it, but then you can
teach it right, you have toreally understand it at a
(05:36):
different level than teach it.
And Indira had that same samemethodological sort of approach
that, and that that helped. Ithink,
Daphna (05:45):
that's so cool. So So really, the book is really born
out of your own notes forstudying it sounds like
absolutely, I had not previouslyrealized that. That's really
cool. And I, I mean, I fulldisclosure, I use the books, I
love the books. So I That'sexactly how I would have chosen
(06:05):
to study. So tell us a littlebit, like you said about how,
how did you really run with itand say, Okay, we're gonna do
this.
Unknown (06:14):
Yeah, we decided we, you know, we would look at the
cards, we're like, we can't letthat just sit. You know, I also
wanted to create something thatwas sort of longer lasting, that
I could look back to, right, Ididn't want to flip through
three by five, four by six cardsanymore, I wanted to be able to
create something that I couldsit and read and look at. And so
it was selfishly just as much asputting it in a form that I
(06:36):
thought would be great formyself, as well as at the same
time thinking how we can do thatfor others. And so we started
talking about, let's see if wecan pitch this. I mean, not
neither of us had done thisbefore. And we saw Let's pitch
it, and I think it was you therewho said well, let's do a sample
chapter we picked respiratory isthe sample chapter, you'll
certainly soon learn over thehour that I'll provide. And Dara
(07:00):
does GMis a good partnership. There
said okay, I'll do therespiratory chapter. And she
wrote it up. And it was it wasawesome, very much like the
first edition of the book. Andwe sent it out to I don't know,
four or five differentpublishers. And one wrote back
and said, we liked this.
(07:25):
And I remember we went to thecoop, at the time in across the
street from Boston Children'sand we opened up a book to
figure out neonatology books,potential publishers, and that's
how we found the means of, youknow, where to send our proposal
to. And of course, it, you know,we the idea of oh, here are
(07:47):
these cards in front of us,let's translate them into a
document a Word document, thatseems so simple, but it's not
that simple. And it was so timeconsuming. We had to go back to
the original sources. Remember,you come here, I remember
sometimes you had this graph onyour index, where you couldn't
remember where it was from, weweren't quite sure about the x
(08:09):
axis. And that was difficult,much
Ben (08:13):
more than I can only imagine how when you you move
from my your own notes to abook, there must be like, Oh,
what about all the things that Itake for granted that I might
need to actually spell out inthe book for people who are not
so comfortable with some of theareas that I'm comfortable with?
Unknown (08:29):
Yeah, you know, I think he evolved even more with the
latest edition, because we triedto move a little bit deeper and
give a bit more background onthe topic, a bit more
explanation, a bit more diagramsand tables to solidify the
concepts. And I remember wewould joke around, I'm like, you
know, they're I'm not sure theyneed a picture of like the six
(08:52):
finger for bollocks. We werejust really just trying to not
assume anything, but then it'sstriking a balance between
making something concise and tothe point and high yield versus
too much and get lost in theweeds. And that's exactly that's
Ben (09:12):
exactly right. I mean, I remember a discussion I had with
I was fortunate enough to be ina in a writing course with Neil
deGrasse Tyson. And he keptsaying, you strike the right
balance when you know when toexplain enough, but not to, but
not much. And that's when goodscience writing is achieved. And
I think that's why your booksare so popular because it really
feels like as as a trainee. Itdoesn't break it down to a
(09:35):
pediatric resident level, butit's at its exactly at the right
level. So yeah, I agree.
Daphna (09:43):
Yeah, I remember when I first started looking through
the book, and I said, Why didn'tanybody tell me to get this on
the first day of fellowship sothat I didn't know what I was
talking about along the way, notjust in, you know, studying for
the boards. I think it wouldhave been helpful, even more. So
had I had I used it that way?
How long did it take from kindof idea talking to the publisher
(10:06):
to kind of books on the shelf?
Unknown (10:12):
Well, we started, we took our exam in 1999. Right,
that was our initialcertification Cami. And then we
published the book in 2003. So Ithink and I think I think I
remember talking to you can beright after the board exam and
said, we've got to do this, wehave to, literally, we finished
(10:36):
the exam. And then we said,let's do the book. And so we
just went with it. Iwas afraid I failed. That was
the other sort of emphasis,
Ben (10:43):
I was gonna say, the level of confidence to come out of the
board exam saying, We shouldwrite the book.
Unknown (10:55):
Right, it was born out of I'm going to have to do this
again. So let's organize thesenotes.
Remember, we went to someexperts? There was? Yeah. I
think is she's passed away sincebut she was amazing physiologist
and respiratory, like sort ofventilation and perfusion. And I
(11:16):
think we had to meet with herthree times to understand that
was way over. We were much moreworried about putting out
content that was physiologicallyincorrect. And so we did for the
most of the chapters, we didhave a a reviewer, somebody who
said, Sure, you know, I'll takea look at the content, make sure
(11:37):
you're not saying anything verywrong. And we didn't necessarily
do that in this latest, but wedid with the first edition.
Ben (11:45):
And so the first edition was was not self published,
then? No, no, correct. And so,for the people who are not
familiar with the differenteditions, there's we're
currently in the neonatologyreview books were in we are at
the third edition. And and therewas this departure in 2010, for
the second edition, where youdecided to Self Publish and make
(12:09):
the books available for fordirect sort of ordering on
lulu.com, which is a selfpublishing website. Can you tell
us a little bit what create whatmotivated this departure towards
self publishing?
Unknown (12:23):
Sure. So at the time, most of our content in the first
edition, and future editions, asCAMI said was physiology based,
but there was some content thatwe thought was outdated, and we
thought, we can improve uponeven some of the explanations.
So we wanted to publish a secondedition, and I think that was
(12:43):
about five or six years later.
And at that time handlingbelfius, they had been bought by
Elsevier, and Elsevier is a verylarge publishing company. And we
went to them and said, We wantto publish the second edition.
And they were not interested.
This was sort of like a verysmall book. For them, the number
of sales were not significantenough for them to think about
(13:03):
publishing it. And so here'swhere they're regretting. Yeah,
so they did come back to uslater. So this is where CAMI is
the idea, man. And so she hadthis brilliant idea to self
publish the book. And I thinkyou were the one who found an
(13:23):
article about Lulu. And therewas a comparison between Lulu
and Amazon. And we thought theadvantages of Lulu at the time
were better. And they were moreinvested just in self
publishing, and just with books,as opposed to Amazon that had
already started to grow. In soElsevier, they gave us the
(13:44):
publishing rights. And we thenset out to create the book in a
word, document. And easy and sowe try to mimic the formatting
the first edition pretty muchexactly. And so we learned so
much about formatting,formatting more than we ever
wanted to know. So for example,how to change line spaces, how
(14:05):
to condense words, and how todraw images, we to at least all
my images, I drew throughMicrosoft Word, and it was so
much more challenging than wehad anticipated. And we
published that second edition in2010. And a few years later,
actually, Elsevier did come backto us. I'm sure they did. Yeah,
(14:25):
and they wanted to publish athird edition. But by that time,
we were just really happy if wehad done so much legwork even
that it didn't really make senseeven converting
to PDF. We're a challenge thatwe had to learn to convert
Ben (14:39):
to PDF and the margins are a shifted
Unknown (14:45):
right the picture changes on the page. And what is
nice about Lulu is that we wecan change on the dime like if
someone writes us and say, Oh,you've got you know, a two here
instead of a three You have adivided instead of multiplied
whatever error it is, we canmake that change. And the next
(15:05):
order of that book would reflectthe change. So that's really
nice that it allows us real timeediting and updating almost
Ben (15:14):
because it's Lulu functions as a print on demand sort of
system. Exactly. Yes.
Unknown (15:19):
Yes. And so that was perfect. And then also to you
know, I just I don't know whyany, any medical person would
not self publish anymore,because the publishers take
everything. I think we were likethey every sale of a book there,
and I like shared 5% of whateverthat sale was. Now, it's
(15:41):
essentially opposite of Lulu, wecan talk about what we're doing
with those funds. But, I mean,why would you why would you not
want to do that, where Lulurespected sort of the the
content developers? Yeah,
Ben (15:55):
yeah, I think I think there's going to be a need for
shift for a major disruptivesort of change in the
publishing, especially inmedical publishing, considering
that when a book is beingpublished, like you said, it
goes out of date pretty quickly.
Yeah. And, and the reward forthe authors is minimal. I think,
I wrote a chapter for a book.
And they gave me like, I think,50 books or 100 books, and I was
just so happy that I wrote achapter, and that the book
(16:17):
itself, called cost like $1,000,and I said, Can you give me a
copy? And they said, no.
Unknown (16:24):
That's right. Exactly.
I would like to see a lot ofchanges happening in medical
publishing, including journalsand your you know, primary
research, original research. So
Daphna (16:37):
I'm just sitting here thinking about how much work you
guys had to put in, in thosefirst few years, just out of
fellowship. And those few yearsare kind of daunting, even if
you have no side projects,right? Even if you're just
trying to be a new attending. Sohow did you do it? Or how did
(16:59):
the project help you? Did itmake it harder? Did it make it
you know, easier? Had How didthat go?
Unknown (17:05):
I mean, we did a lot of nights and weekends. I remember
my first maternity leave wasterrible. Time, if you remember
that I lived in this teenyapartment. And I we were
working. I think the deadlinewas pretty soon after maternity
leave ended. And I was workingwell, instead of you know,
you're supposed to sleep whenyou're when your baby sleeps, I
(17:27):
was writing and it was terribletime for
a lot of work. But I think wewere also excited about it and
right out of fellowship, right?
You want yours fun, you want toknow everything. So we were
pretty heavy clinically, but Iwas using that to help you know,
you know, fill out the, theholes of the book or content
and, and like I said, I waslike, the smartest I've ever
(17:51):
been was like when we werewriting that. So it was a nice
reinforcement of concepts andpracticing and being an
attending for the first time.
And so I just remember a lot ofwork, but having fun and being
excited about it.
Ben (18:07):
It feels like the great I mean, we it takes a lot of time,
but yet we learned so much. It'sa lot.
Daphna (18:14):
A lot more than we were learning. Yeah, we're learning.
So now I
Unknown (18:19):
wish I got the same benefits. I mean, it's funny,
well, I'll be on call, what arethe NTPs will say, Oh, they'll
tell me some faculty like, Oh,that's interesting there gets in
your book. And I'm like, it musthave been. Because I don't.
Ben (18:30):
I'm gonna jump on that.
Because I wanted to ask thisquestion when you write that
book, not just any book, butthis book, specifically, how do
you deal with the expectationfrom everybody else that you're
going to know everything? And I
Unknown (18:44):
think that's right. It is. And that's and I'm just hey,
I'm honest, what you see is whatyou get, and I'll just, I'll
just say, Hey, I remember towhen I wrote it, I don't know if
I remember it. That must beDeRose chapter because I have
no. So I know half the book kindof well. But it's also
kind of fun to say, Okay, I knowa resource might know exactly
(19:06):
this page where it is. And Icould picture the image in my
mind. I just don't remember whatthe image is image has in it.
But you know, that's helpful,too. But you're right, people
feel like we are so smart. Andwe know all the material that's
in that's not true at all.
Ben (19:21):
It's starting to happen with us where people say, but
you mentioned that article andyou're like
Unknown (19:27):
No, it's just too much to know, right? There's just so
much to know like you said, somany things are changing all the
time. But I think that's wherejust having fun with the process
of of learning and being thatyou know, perpetual learner. I
think you have to enjoy that tosome degree in doing things like
this, the vodcast books but alsoin medicine. Frankly.
Ben (19:51):
I wanted to ask you about the content of the book
specifically because I took myboards. It was wet last year and
I am I'm extremely grateful forthese books to review. And the
content is so onpoint when itcomes to the questions and
what's and the way they're,they're dealt with on the exam.
(20:13):
And so I was wondering, how doyou manage to not drift off and
be too technical? not technicalenough? How do you really strike
that balance that the book isextremely high yield? That's
good.
Unknown (20:27):
It's still high yield?
Because, you know, questions arebeing changed and formatted and,
you know, content being readdiscussed and so, so, right,
we've kind of stuck through tothe base to that. But yeah,
there you wanted to say how Iknow we talked about that the
last round,we definitely did. I mean, we
started off by using theneonatal perinatal medicine
(20:48):
Content Specifications from theAmerican Board of Pediatrics. So
that was kind of our beasts. Andthey've revised that many times
since, and many topics havesince been even eliminated. And,
and we just, that helped usthink to format the outline. And
then it was just sort ofinstinctual, I think, like we
(21:10):
just, you know, had to sort ofthink about what we saw the most
in our clinical experience, andwhat we thought, might need more
clarity. But we didgo item by item and that outline
and made sure we had somecontent under each of those
bullets, something, even if itwas a simple table, or just a
(21:32):
wrapper, we just wanted to makesure we were touching upon it.
And
Ben (21:37):
that's amazing, because then then you're not
collaborating with the ADPmeaning
Unknown (21:42):
no, and in fact, we're not allowed, not even allowed to
serve on the board. You know,both of us do a lot of different
professional activities. And Ikind of was told at one point,
because we do this book, wecan't be part of the process of
vetting questions, coming upwith new questions serving on
the board, which is, which isfine.
(22:05):
What I was gonna say is that,you know, we just want to also
emphasize that this is not theonly book that they should use
when they study for the boards,because there are so many other
things that can need to besupplemented when you're
studying. So the AP has the nearrepeats plus, which is another
case based question, online,option. And then there are two
(22:27):
great board review courses, bothof which Cami and I talk at the
NIO prep sponsored by theAmerican Academy of Pediatrics,
and also this specialty reviewcourse, sponsored by min max. So
it's not we I don't I want toemphasize that it's not you
know, when you're setting footboards, it's not just Starbucks,
there are some supplementarymaterials that you should yeah,
and to alittle bit of what was raised
earlier is that some of theconcepts are the second and
(22:49):
third distillation of us kind ofthinking through it. And you may
need exposure to that first andsecond part that we sort of
don't have outlined there foryou. And so, and going through
it, anything you don'tunderstand or get, you should
definitely just, you know, stepback, look at another source,
look at another primary sourceto make sure you know how to get
(23:12):
to that statement.
Ben (23:15):
Absolutely, definitely. Go ahead.
Daphna (23:17):
Yeah, how do you guys intend for people to use the
books or books like yours? Youknow, read it from start to
finish? Or how would yourecommend working the way
through?
Unknown (23:29):
Yeah. Do you want to know, and we'll get to that it
just what I have most enjoyed iswhen we're speaking at
conferences, or giving a lectureor something. And people would
come up and show us their bookand what they've done and it is
amazing, like we saw, I mean,there were versions where people
(23:53):
have just in the margins wroteevery no possible other people
with like a 20 color palettescheme of highlighting and
sticky notes and underlying andtaping new additional content
because probably doing exactlywhat I just said, they get the
curve they don't quite you know,well maybe I need more and so
they've pasted another somethingin there for them and and so
(24:14):
everybody I think uses itdifferently. And, and one person
I saw basically ripped it all upbut basically wanted to be able
to take a smaller version toStarbucks, it just kind of flip
through it and not carry thisbig book. And that's what really
prompted the volume series. Um,how would I approach it now I
(24:38):
think, I think it is going to bedifferent for everybody. I would
take it in, in in any randomsections, right? Any chapter can
be a standalone, it doesn't haveto be from front to back. I
would almost prioritize it basedon the percent of content on the
boards. So make sure you've gotMFM rest secretory, cardiology
(25:01):
down, and, and then kind of readthrough it anything you don't
understand, go back to theprimary source, fill it in and
make it your own. And thenfollow up with as many questions
as you can. But, you know, we'vetried to be better about some of
the images, but there's gonnathere's gonna be kgs, there's
going to be images, make sureyou have a pattern recognition
(25:23):
that backs up some of thatknowledge.
Ben (25:25):
Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because the new
edition has a ton of images. AndI personally purchase the color
version, so it almost functionas an atlas for certain
chapters. And then you do have aseparate book of just images,
right? How does that work interms of starting this project,
where you probably have to askfor permission for all these
(25:45):
images? Is that even?
Unknown (25:49):
See, this is where Derek does all the heavy
lifting. So Derek can talk aboutthat?
Yeah, I think it depends uponthe chapter. So for dermatology,
there aren't that many resourcesout there where you can actually
copy images. So I found a fewwebsites just randomly by
looking that some were kind andallowed us to publish without
(26:10):
any fee, and some we had toactually pay a significant
amount. And then any diagrams,you see that those have usually
been drawn by us. And they're invery pleasing, very basic
Microsoft Word. We've gottenpretty good at that. And any
algorithms, any flowcharts we'vealso drawn radiology Dara,
(26:31):
Dara reviews, the reading onevery film that's taken every
day in the NICU. So she'llreview the ratings and anything
that's interesting, oh, look,you know, a dose to this and
then she'll will we have a waythat we can de identify and have
permission to do it that way.
Yeah. And so we've saved 1000sof radiographs, MRI CTS. And so
(26:55):
we've, you know, collected thosefor EKGs. Also our EKGs in our
unit, our phone, you know,copied and uploaded into our
computer system, so it's prettyeasy for us to copy, any
abnormality, any abnormal EKGand use that.
Daphna (27:15):
So the books still take up a lot of your time. In
cycles, how do you balance thatwith all of the other things
that you guys have going on, butdifferently?
Unknown (27:28):
Dara, Dara plans months ahead has edits months ahead
sets a deadline and actually,you know, keeps it somehow. And
I will wait to the last minuteand Darryl coming in the office
saying we are publishing nomatter what. Three weeks, and I
haven't seen it thing from you.
I'm like, I'm like, Yeah, Iknow. I gotta cover, you know,
(27:50):
is it and she's like, No, I'mserious, I am gonna be really
angry with you. And I'm like, Iknow, there, I would be too. I
get it, you know, and sureenough, I we just work
differently. I will go all outevery day, 12 hours a day, 15
hours a day, till I feel goodabout something. And I know
that's in me. And that's how Ido it. deras is much more of a
(28:11):
steady, steady workforce anddoesn't like that last minute
frenetic. But you did have toadmit you're like, Wow, you did
do a good job. It was at thelast minute got
Daphna (28:23):
it done. All of us, then.
Ben (28:30):
That's right. That's right.
Was there any issues of workingon this type of book, all the
while being having an academicappointment when it comes to
intellectual property? And theuniversity ever stepped in and
said, Hey, like, we want alittle bit of what you guys are
doing? Or was that not an issue?
Because I feel like this issomething that for anybody who
(28:51):
has any type of an academicappointment, it might be a fear
to even start on somethingbecause you might sell
something, it's gonna belong tothe university anyway. Was that
an issue for you guys?
Unknown (29:01):
Now, we were very fortunate.
Wondering why wasn't it? Yeah, Idon't know. It was and there
were they're aware of it. It'slike on our CV and
but in our department also thereisn't an issue. We are working
on cases, defense cases orplaintiff cases, that that's not
something that we have to getapproval about either. Yeah. Or
(29:23):
pay our department as a certainpercentage. I know that other
departments have that issue.
Ben (29:30):
In our show prep you you sent us a topic where you said
that the police had to beinvolved at some point in time
because you were being takenadvantage of can you tell us a
little bit what that's about?
Unknown (29:43):
Yes, so this was really interesting. So in 2017, we had
a strange situation where bookswere being bought illegally. And
this was through Lulu and Lilyactually had to involve the
police. So there was a scam.
Let's see if I can explain this.
(30:04):
So there was a scam where agroup of people in Mississippi,
they were hired to buy manycopies of our books. So
sometimes over 20 at a time, soLulu shipped 20 copies to the,
to their address. And in turn,what they did is they shipped
them someplace, internationallyto some international address
(30:26):
and where we assumed that theythen got resold. What it turns
out is that they were usingstolen credit cards to make
those purchases. Yeah, so Luludid not. They lost a lot of
money on this. Because they werethey didn't realize that they
(30:47):
were stolen credit cards, andthey were shipping the books to
this address in Mississippi andhundreds of books. This was and
so the police stopped the groupfrom buying more books. And they
weren't able to ever track downthe ringleaders. But what was
interesting is Lulu because ofthis, they increase their
security around credit cardpurchases. And they also have
(31:11):
this fraud system that so thatthey can monitor addresses more
closely so that one addressdoesn't receive a ton of books.
And my husband who spent yearsas a federal prosecutor tells me
that it's common to have thiskind of fraud streets scheme
where the bad guys buy itemsthat can be easily resold like
(31:34):
TVs and phones, and they usestolen credit cards. But it's
really funny to for us to thinkof our book being such a
commodity that criminalsthere was also another dare I
remember when we we came acrossanother review book. And it was
still in the coop was stillopen. And I was like, oh, you
(31:57):
know, cool. And I was lookingthrough it. I'm like, this looks
like really? A lot of contentword for word. Yeah.
And I reached out to the authorand sort of explained that that
was plagiarism. And they they'rewelcome to use it, but they at
(32:17):
least need to cite or book orput the words in quotes. And I
never followed through to see ifthey did that. Yeah,
Ben (32:25):
that's crazy. Did you ever think there was a dramatic
increase in neonatology activityand businesses booming over
there?
Unknown (32:37):
It was because Darryl will track this thing. It was
some kind of blip in newactivity that alerted you. Yeah.
Daphna (32:46):
Interesting. Yeah. What other kind of obstacles? I'm
sure there were other bumpsalong the way.
Unknown (32:55):
Um, you know, not really, I think we I, again,
it's, it's helpful to have apartner you work well with. And
my obstacle is time, I just doway too many things. And in the
Styles being a little different,but nothing else really.
I think since this last edition,we would have included even more
visuals and more photographs. Ifwe could have like, there's only
(33:21):
so many things that we can draw.
And that was a challenge to findmaterial that we would have
wanted to use, but we justdidn't have any access or
ability to find that content.
Ben (33:35):
Any interesting stories or things you could share with us
about the potential globalimpact the book has had, because
we tend to think about this asreally a review book for the
American Academy of Pediatricsor of neonatology board. But I'm
sure that this has been usedacross the world. And I'm
curious to see how people areusing it outside the US.
Unknown (33:56):
Well, we did receive this amazing picture from
someone in Saudi Arabia, who washolding a copy of our first
edition in front of the mostfamous building in Saudi Arabia,
and called the macaque clocktower. And that was really
special to see our book and thatpicture has a gentleman holding
(34:21):
the art book and in thebackground is the clock tower,
surrounded by a lot of otherpeople from Saudi Arabia who
were on this religious, I thinkexpedition at the time, it was
just fascinating to see our bookin that type of environment.
No, absolutely. And there hasbeen a few letters and pictures
(34:41):
of you know, folks with theirbooks, and it's almost I was
telling Darren, it's almost likethe Travelocity no more of like,
I want everyone to start justtaking a trip somewhere in the
world with the book and we cancollect it and make a wall out
of it. But yeah, it definitelyhas global presence and that
picture really solidifies it forus. We both have that picture in
(35:05):
our office, and I love it. And Ilove it. Because it just, you
know, sometimes you just takefor you don't realize the impact
you can have sometimes. Andthat's a reminder to that. And
in the same thing a little bitwith Zoom, or, you know, people
are now in this new with Zoomare able to tune in and learn
and listen to things they didn'thave access to before. So
(35:28):
yeah, and I think including ouremail addresses, yeah. In the
very beginning, that empoweredpeople, I think our readers to
feel connected with us a littlebit. And so we have heard over
the years from so many people,US, Canada, Kuwait,
they were often the feedback, wealways see a little blip in our
(35:49):
email activity right before anexam. Like you said, calcium was
good hear. Hear, can youexplain? Wow, so
Ben (36:00):
an unintended benefit of self publishing to I think
there's this human aspect whenyou open the book that there's
no, it's a direct interactionwith the authors. There's
nobody, there's no bigcorporation overseeing and
really is in between, I feellike you put the address of
where to send mail to, I thinkin the in the preface, so, yeah,
right off the bat, it's like,these are going to be my
(36:21):
buddies, they're gonna help me.
The you know, we
Unknown (36:26):
definitely want, you know, people to be successful.
Yeah.
Ben (36:31):
One of the benefits of self publishing is that you get to
make a lot more money foryourself, and and you have had
dedication to trying to dosomething good with that income.
And can you tell us a little bitas to how you're giving back
some of these revenue towardseducation and doing some some
net positive around the world?
Unknown (36:53):
Sure. So we do think it's really important to give
back and in after we publishedthe question and answer book
outline was actually written byfellows and junior attendings
locally. So we, and we editedthat book. So we thought that it
was important to give backlocally, and we created this
(37:14):
Excellence in Teaching Award toacknowledge one of our first
year fellows who in our program,who prioritizes teaching, and we
give them $1,000 That sponsorsregistration and travel to a
national scientific meeting oftheir choice. So far, we've
given out 10 awards, and I thinkit's just especially, it's
(37:38):
really a nice way to acknowledgehow important teaching is and
how we value that. So that's onething that we do. And then the
second thing, this one, westarted a low bid leader, I
think it was in 2006. Teambecause we've sponsored six
awards so far. We have it has aterrible title, we're gonna have
(37:58):
to change this company. But theBeth Israel, Deaconess
neonatology Foundation EducationResearch Awards sponsored, press
good, Martin. Yeah, exactly. Andso the eighth through the AAP,
we have people apply for thisaward alongside the Marshall
class awards. And we provide$5,000 to fund a fellow's
(38:22):
research project with a focus oneducation. So we're really,
really excited about both ofthose opportunities. And we're
always thinking of other ways.
So IF listeners have anothersuggestion about how we can give
back and shoot us an email,yeah, we'll
Ben (38:38):
put your contact info in the in the show description. And
we'll obviously put the links toin the show notes to the to the
books on lulu.com. and stuff. Sothat's that's kind of that's
great youth. You see, whenyou're giving out these awards,
and you're trying to supportteaching, do you feel that you
have become better motivatorsfor education and teaching
(39:00):
because of the books? Or wasthat always there?
Unknown (39:05):
I think for us, it was always there. I would like to
see, I would like to see morepeople interested in it,
frankly. You know, we do we doget a handful of applications
every year, and I think it'sincreased a little bit, but I
want a lot I want, you know, alot of people interested and I
think if more people are maybewe would then give a couple of
words and not just one award.
But I just think it's soimportant that I I wish more
(39:27):
people are involved in it insome way.
Daphna (39:34):
Well, if people haven't had the opportunity to see you
all, give lectures, live youryour tremendous teachers in
addition to the work that you'vedone with the book and obviously
you mentioned some of theconferences and the review
courses that you guys arerecurrently a part of. Maybe you
(39:54):
can tell our viewers a littlebit about your kind of new
course Sydney neonatal insiderAre? Oh,
Unknown (40:01):
yeah, that's, that's, um, that is we're taking part in
it. We're not. We're not likethe developers of it. But it
comes from two neonatologist whowere very involved in the
pediatrics neonatal specialtyreview. And they, you know, I
think, again, in these difficulttimes, it's hard to have when we
(40:24):
push out alternative forms ofeducation, the live conferences
have been somewhat limited. Andso they were the brainchild
behind the let's, let's bringlargely what we've done before,
but wanted to add sort of astate of the art spin to it. Not
just to, you know, to gear for aboard review, but really start
(40:46):
thinking, what's the latestliterature? How does this inform
practice? And yeah, and that gotstarted, and I think it's been
received well, and I opened thefirst lecture with Jim Moore.
And I think the second one willbe at the end of August. But
it's going to be a curriculumover a couple of years. So I
think that's just going tocontinue to grow to
Ben (41:05):
that's exciting. I want to move away from the books. And I
want to talk about yourprofessional relationship. I
feel like when collaboration isalways difficult, and especially
when you are emotionallyinvolved in a project, can you
what is in your opinion, thesecrets to a successful
partnership, when it comes to acreative endeavor? The Martin
(41:30):
Brodsky edition?
Unknown (41:33):
I think a good sense of humor, yes. And patience, I
think patients with each otherstyle, because we have the
opposite style, as you heard mesay before, and so and we'd like
each other. And we also have theI think there's similar physics
as physicians, like we have thesame view, understand the
(41:55):
physiology first, and then wecan think about the path of is
and yeah, I think our, ouroverview about how we provide
clinical care is very similar. Ithink
communication too. And in tryingto understand, the other person
might get defensive, I think itcould have been maybe a younger,
(42:16):
more immature self of me, itwould have been easy, you know,
when Dara said, you, you got todo this, if you don't, I'm just
gonna be really, I could havebeen like, Hey, you don't know
my style, you know, I'll getupset. It's like, Yeah, I think,
you know, I understand that it'sa lot of work. And she shouldn't
be angry with me if I don't pullthrough. And so it's really just
keeping your eye on the prizeand being patient and keeping
(42:40):
those communication channelsopen. And I think I told Derek,
listen, if if we get to x pointand you don't see something,
then I know I'm in trouble, thenI know that I've waited too long
or if I've done too much, andthen then I'll let you know,
then we can sit down andstrategize again. And I think
that's been really helpful justto be able to communicate well
(43:03):
with each other even though likeI said, the styles are different
there's a lot that is similarbut the the work styles a little
different.
Ben (43:11):
It's interesting, right?
How these these these endeavors,who are supposed to really boost
your ego and make you feel likeyou're the king of the world.
actually bringing give you alesson in humility, I think yes.
That's, that's what I'm trying.
That's what I'm hearing fromfrom both of your answers. I
think that's very interesting.
Sorry, definitely, we're gonnasay something
Daphna (43:33):
No, I'm wondering especially because your styles
are different. And you know, wehave lots of listeners who are
doing collaborative work if youguys use any kind of tools to
help with your communication oryour collaboration and keep each
other on track. No,
Unknown (43:51):
I started out with an owl I think we created five
different calendars with anoutline
and a calendar and then there'sthe the ideal calendar for
Canada. I usually meet mine andthen the next deadline is sort
of like where I'm not so happybut I'll accept and then like,
(44:16):
really,
Ben (44:17):
the eviction notice that
Unknown (44:21):
there is there's a lot of days where it was going to be
broadsky And I wouldn't and Ihad to have like said okay, I
deserve that. But I think youknow what I think what allows
that I guess I would just say issort of that open door policy
you know, we were opposite endsof the hall but the same hallway
and I know I can call Daraanytime and I know I can knock
(44:46):
on her office door anytime andhopefully she feels the same
with me and and having that openrelationship and enjoying the
differences. Again, I thinkwe're more alike than different
but, but enjoying thosedifferences and being able, as
Sara said, to have a sense ofhumor about it and joke about
the differences. But in the end,you know, I think we both take
(45:08):
seriously having an excellentproduct out there and meeting a
timeline that's reasonable sothat people can actually use the
product. You know, the goalsremain the same. So that's
helpful.
Ben (45:19):
It's interesting. You say that, because I follow you on
Twitter, Dr. Martin, and I saw,I remember that one post that
you had about, I think you'reusing the note taking app called
Rome research. Yes. For thepeople who may not be familiar,
it's it's a note taking appwhere you can actually link
keywords and basically recreatea little bit of of your new your
(45:40):
own neural network, and thedifferent connections you're
making between concepts andnotes. And so
Unknown (45:46):
I was, you know, my dream, my dream is to turn that
into a realm research document.
Really, it's like, I don't thinkI've talked to Derek. Right
ahead.
I think we should stop thispodcast.
I'm always coming up like, thetimestamps, and then I leave
(46:09):
there to pick up all the pieces,I'm having palpitations, I have
a lot of work in the next monthor so Kenny, don't say, don't
tell us the idea.
It's, it's, it's a powerfulconcept of note taking, like Ben
was saying, and that it, youknow, you can highlight, and tag
almost, but highlight veryimportant concepts. But what it
(46:30):
does is it starts to linkdocuments together that you just
can't link naturally, becauseyou can only remember so much or
link so much in your head. Butif I, you know, if I linked on
arachidonic acid, I would, Icould potentially have every
cross reference from physiologyto disease to the current
research or whatever, you haveto build it, whatever it is. So
(46:51):
to have a book where you canlink these critical concepts,
and then you can just click onthat concept. And now that
thread of that topic acrossevery chapter is now on that
page for you to review, and youstart to synthesize the bigger
picture and understand thebigger picture. So yeah, I'm in
love with that app, I think itpotentially could be used for
(47:14):
textbooks. And I've beenthinking about that. But
Ben (47:17):
I think I don't know if it's going to be I don't know
how the format would would lenditself to an actual book, but
the idea of, of having it maybeon a screen where it could be
dynamic, and where you canunderstand how one concept
touches on so many others.
Unknown (47:32):
Exactly, exactly. And I think ultimately, we want to be
like that as physicians, right?
That you have some, you know,symptom, and you can immediately
link across systems, thepotential and the impact of
that. And, you know, some of usdo it better than others. But,
you know, ultimately, that'swhat you would like to attain.
So right,
Ben (47:53):
we're looking forward to the
Daphna (48:01):
first future,
Unknown (48:03):
well, maybe before Roe research textbook would be you
know, we would like to have somesort of, you know, everyone
keeps asking for the digital,the digital version, or a online
version of a course. And, andwe've had some ideas, we've
played some with some platforms,time is the only factor. But
(48:24):
hopefully, hopefully over theyears, we'll be able to evolve
into other formats of learning.
Yeah,
Ben (48:31):
a masterclass would be fitting. Yeah,
Unknown (48:33):
exactly. Exactly.
I'm a big fan of the KhanAcademy, where they have very
short clips of very one concepteasily, you know, but explained
from starting with thephysiology, and I think that
really lends itself so well toour content. So that's a dream
(48:53):
that I'm going to push back Camiand Sam like that went to
France. Sounds good. And what'swhat's
compromise? I just say, okay, ofcourse.
Ben (49:04):
I think that's what's cool, right? The fact that you you
guys are you have achievedsomething that's that's of high
significance, and yet the wheelsare continuing to turn and do
projects. It's that's reallycool.
Unknown (49:16):
Though, yeah, no, absolutely.
Daphna (49:18):
Yeah, I was struck by the fact that it seems like the
ideas are just flowing. And infact, Dr. Martin, we got to peek
into your office earlier today.
And so we know that you have awhiteboard full of more ideas
and projects. So you know, Ithink we're all we're all trying
to navigate no matter you know,what, what your job is like
(49:40):
balancing this like multipleprojects and kind of work life
balance. So how do you guys doit?
Unknown (49:51):
Yeah, from you know, from a professional standpoint,
I think and then we'll go into apersonal one, I guess our work
life but professionally, you dohave to if you're an actor,
genomic medicine, you have tokeep your eye on the target of
what sort of metrics arenecessary for you to kind of
keep advancing along thatpipeline. And so the tracks that
(50:12):
Dara and I are, are different.
And that's why our style mightbe a little different, just
because the price, how we placedthe priority, not that it's not
a priority. But some things thatI gotta get done first, maybe a
grant or a paper. So I have toget that out. Because that's my
academic life. And so it's,it's, I think, you just need to
be aware of that, and youdefinitely do other projects.
(50:34):
But I wouldn't do other projectsuntil you feel like you if
you're going to do academicmedicine that you've sort of
mastered, you know, what thatlooks like, what what do you
have to get done and you'realong that pathway? For
I was just also add that I thinkit's important to do something
(50:54):
you're really passionate about,because then you're going to
find time, out of your day,either late in the evening, or
on the weekends, or in themiddle of the day, if you're
really invested in something ityou know, your your life, work
balance, it's easier to findtime for that.
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And,you know, for me, it'll all work
(51:15):
life balance. It's, it's whatyou enjoy at that moment. I
mean, there's going to be timeswhere I have to commit to more
of what's happening at home andkids and activities. And there's
gonna be other times that allowsme to commit more to the work
and projects like this. And so Idon't have the answer for that.
Except that I'm I'm not happierand better person, when I feel
(51:38):
like I'm I'm making progress inboth. And I can sense I'll feel
whether I have to switchdirections, but also something
that I've learned because I'vedefinitely more work minded. So
I'm not an expert on work life.
But I think there's theseindirects that happen when your
family sees you working, or yourkids see you working, and I've
heard them say and share withothers things that I didn't
(52:01):
think they were observing, orthey were seeing that they
clearly were. And then I had thejoy of being at I think the 2000
must have been right after book.
So 2012, maybe Neo prep, and Ibrought the kids and all the
fellows are people taking thecourse were like by the pool
(52:21):
with the book. And I rememberlater in the day, they're like,
whoa, like they didn't quite getit like everyone. And I just had
to laugh. So anyway, you know, Ithink we when we talk about work
life, we have to remember howthat expression ourselves and
work. Our kids see that. And Ithink there's a lot of good to
that too.
Ben (52:42):
I could not agree with you more number one, because I did
see my my own parents workreally hard and being dedicated
professionals. And we never feltlike this was taken away from
us. We always felt like this wasan example to follow. But I
think more importantly, what youguys are describing is that
sometimes we have this guiltthat if we cannot fit in work
within our routine sort ofstandard week, then we feel like
(53:03):
we shouldn't even do it. Butit's not supposed to be a
constant. It's supposed to bevariable, you should be able to
say, well, I'm going toaccelerate that work for this
period of time, and then focuson that later on. And that's
perfectly okay. And I think theguilt that sometimes we have
should not be there. And you'rethe example that we can actually
get stuff done in that way.
Unknown (53:20):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I don't think it has to be a
dichotomy at all. It's veryfluid.
Ben (53:25):
We're coming to the end of the episode. So I want to ask my
last question. And I knowdefinite has has one more at
least one more question. Iwanted to I wanted to ask you,
if you had not gone intoneonatology, where would you
have been today?
Unknown (53:44):
You want to take that Tara?
I think Yeah. This one's prettyeasy for me. I would have been
some type of teacher forcertain. Yeah, I probably have
children.
Ben (53:57):
Younger terms.
Unknown (54:02):
Yeah, I really I love.
I love that I'm very passionateabout teaching. And you know,
helping people learn. A verychallenging topic is especially
very rewarding when I seesomeone understand that. So I
see that with my kids. I try toteach them. Well. First, I
learned the material myself,because I've forgotten so much
(54:23):
of it. But then if they need myhelp, then I'll teach them after
I've explored the internet alittle bit. And I really enjoy
that. That's.
So this won't come as a surprisesince we had a sort of a fan
moment about Rome research. Iwould love to be a programmer. I
love digital stuff. I lovecreating tools that make your
(54:45):
job easier, but not just easier,but connects things that you
wouldn't otherwise connect andallow you to do things you
otherwise wouldn't be able todo. And so to be a facile
programmer and create tools, Iwould love that What about the
two of you? Oh, really?
Ben (55:05):
I agree. I mean, I taught, I taught for a while I enjoy
teaching tremendously. And I amgetting back into teaching now.
Because I just I just like thatso much, but I'm very big on
engineering design computerscience. So yes, both of your
both of your answers.
Daphna (55:29):
Yeah, for me, yeah, I'd probably have gotten into
psychology, which makes sense.
If anybody listens to thepodcasts. That's what I have my
family's full of psychologists.
Admittedly, it was myundergraduate major double
major, obviously, with somethingmedical. But yes, I just love
(55:52):
walking with families throughsome of the difficult kind of
ups and downs of the neonataladmission. And so certainly,
that's one of my, my areas ofinterests. My last question,
while we still have a little bitof time together, is and you
(56:12):
touched on it a little bit, buthow do you how do you deal with
the celebrity status? And, youknow, you mentioned that your
kids had seen your book, but dothey know that you're, you're
really kind of neonatalcelebrities?
Unknown (56:26):
I don't know if they knew that, um, how do I handle I
think it's, I think it's great,I actually very appreciative
that everyone, you know, enjoyswhat we've done, and that it was
of use, and I was able to giveback to the neonatal community
in some way and, and hopefully along lasting way, love when they
come up and talk about the bookand, and show us all how you
(56:49):
know, how they've worked withthe book. It's all it is all
very nice to see I do jokesometimes, because, as you may
know, I also do, you know,research and, and I always joke
that I can stand up and give atalk about how I cured neck, but
the first question is going tobe about my book. No one's
gonna. And that's, that's fine.
I that.
Ben (57:11):
I don't want to hear the hits, you know?
Unknown (57:14):
That's right. So, so it's been nice. Yes.
Yeah. It's been wonderful. Isometimes I'm a little
embarrassed by, you know, sortof the celebrity status
sometimes if we're going to aconference, but I enjoy talking
to people and, and hearingsuggestions about how to improve
things. That's how we'veevolved, I think, hearing from
(57:37):
readers about ways of improvingthings, and we've definitely
incorporated ideas that we'veheard from other people. So keep
them coming. Yes. Right. Yeah.
Ben (57:47):
Yeah. That's great. Well, we'll
Daphna (57:51):
connect you to some listeners for sure.
Ben (57:53):
Yeah. Is that Is that okay for us to share your email
address in the show notes?
Unknown (57:58):
We would love to hear from them. And yeah, we want to
grow weed and things arechanging all the time. So
Ben (58:03):
yeah, that's that's a that's another topic I wanted to
to address. But I guess I guessthat will be for next time, but
you guys can get the neonatologyreview books at Lulu publishing.
And we'll put all the links inthe show notes. Dr. Brodsky, Dr.
Martin, thank you so much fortaking the time and for being so
cordial answering our questions.
It was it was lovely.
Unknown (58:25):
Thank you for the
Ben (58:29):
happy to have you. Thank you for listening to this week's
episode of the incubator. If youliked this episode, please leave
us a review on Apple podcast orthe Apple podcast website. You
can find other episodes of theshow on Apple podcasts, Spotify,
Google podcast or the podcastapp of your choice. We would
love to hear from you. So feelfree to send us questions,
(58:50):
comments or suggestions to ouremail address NICU
podcast@gmail.com. You can alsomessage the show on Instagram or
Twitter at NICU podcast.
Personally, I am on Twitter atDr. Nikhil spelled Dr. NICU. And
Daphna is at Dr. Dafna MD.
Thanks again for listening andsee you next time. This podcast
is intended to be purely forentertainment and informational
(59:13):
purposes and should not beconstrued as medical advice. If
you have any medical concerns,please see your primary care
practitioner. Thank you
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Daphna. How
are you today?
Daphna (00:45):
I'm doing great. I'm very excited for the guests.
Ben (00:48):
So am I so I might. So do you want to introduce our two
guests for today?
Daphna (00:53):
Sure, it would be an honor. It's really, really a
pleasure for us to have thesetwo physicians on today. We have
Dr. Dara Brodsky, who's anassociate professor at Harvard
Medical School, the director ofeducation for the Department of
neonatology at Beth IsraelDeaconess Medical Center, and
(01:14):
also the editor in chief for Neoreviews. We have Dr. Camillia.
Martin, who's also an associateprofessor at Harvard Medical
School and the associatedirector of the neonatal
intensive care unit, anddirector for cross disciplinary
research partnerships in theDivision of translational
research at Beth IsraelDeaconess Medical Center. So
thank you both for joining ustoday.
Unknown (01:36):
Oh, yeah, our pleasure.
We're looking forward to thistoo. Great to be here.
Ben (01:42):
So for the people who who are not familiar with your work,
I don't know how that would bepossible, though. You're both
achieved. research and clinicalexcellence. But the main reason
we really wanted to talk to youis because you've impacted I
think the life of every neonataltrainee by publishing a series
of Book of books, including unitand unit ology review that I
(02:04):
think was first published 18years ago, you have another set
of books, neonatology reviewimages, and your real Natalja.
review questions and answers. Soit feels like we know you
already. But in case anybody hadnot realized who you were, this
is a big deal.
Unknown (02:22):
Thank you, I think we went about it saying, you know,
what would we have liked if wewere a fellow? Right? We didn't
see what we wanted. So wecreated it.
Ben (02:32):
That's awesome. I guess I guess this was my my first
question is this dedication tomedical education. There's a
difference between puttingtogether a set of notes for your
boards that you can locallyshare with your friends and
colleagues. But to take the nextstep, really, and to say, You
know what, we're going to makethis into a series of books, and
(02:53):
we're going to publish this foreverybody to access. How does
that come about? And do youthink there's anything in your
personal backgrounds thatsteered you in that direction of
sharing a disk sort of on thissort of scale?
Cami Martin (03:06):
Right, I, I'll start and then I'll get deras
thoughts on the process. Like Isaid, you know, we really
weren't seeing what we wanted atthe time, we were studying for
the boards. Did I have anythingin my phenotype beforehand? I
think I always liked medicaleducation. I was a chief
resident. So I was used to thatsort of forum and getting to
(03:30):
distill information fortrainees. But I think also
fortunate that I was studyingwith Dara. So we were a lot of
like, in the sense that wescoured like we're we would just
scour everything write notesdown, we got together with a
plan of how to approach for theboards, and we stuck to it. And
(03:50):
I still have my boxes like bigboxes of I do too. Hundreds and
hundreds. And we would gettogether and we would share the
content. And if she created acard that I didn't have, I would
Xerox it and vice versa. And sowe had this complete set. And
then at the end, it's all youknow, after we were done, we
(04:11):
were like, You know what,nothing exists out there like
this and what we just did, and Ifelt the smartest then I am not
as smart as I was then. I wasdefinitely the smartest then. So
before we talk about why thepublication how we went about
that, let me let there and talkabout sort of how she felt at
(04:31):
the beginning.
Dara Brodsky (04:33):
No, I agree with you Kami. I had a background in
basic science where I joined alab in my second year of
fellowship and enjoyed that. ButI was always drawn to teaching,
even starting way back incollege. And I was really
(04:53):
excited when kami and I worktogether to think that we can
take this material that we hadcreated and all this work that
we had put in to give it tosomeone else in a way, and, and
to summarize everything so thatsomeone else did not need to
have to go through all that workthat we did. So that was part of
(05:13):
our impetus.
Unknown (05:15):
Also, we've probably shared a similar approach of how
we learn. I mean, again, I'm notI'm not someone with a
photographic memory, I'm notsomeone who necessarily gets it
the first round I, I sit and Ibreak it down into little steps
so that not only can Iunderstand it, but then you can
teach it right, you have toreally understand it at a
(05:36):
different level than teach it.
And Indira had that same samemethodological sort of approach
that, and that that helped. Ithink,
Daphna (05:45):
that's so cool. So So really, the book is really born
out of your own notes forstudying it sounds like
absolutely, I had not previouslyrealized that. That's really
cool. And I, I mean, I fulldisclosure, I use the books, I
love the books. So I That'sexactly how I would have chosen
(06:05):
to study. So tell us a littlebit, like you said about how,
how did you really run with itand say, Okay, we're gonna do
this.
Unknown (06:14):
Yeah, we decided we, you know, we would look at the
cards, we're like, we can't letthat just sit. You know, I also
wanted to create something thatwas sort of longer lasting, that
I could look back to, right, Ididn't want to flip through
three by five, four by six cardsanymore, I wanted to be able to
create something that I couldsit and read and look at. And so
it was selfishly just as much asputting it in a form that I
(06:36):
thought would be great formyself, as well as at the same
time thinking how we can do thatfor others. And so we started
talking about, let's see if wecan pitch this. I mean, not
neither of us had done thisbefore. And we saw Let's pitch
it, and I think it was you therewho said well, let's do a sample
chapter we picked respiratory isthe sample chapter, you'll
certainly soon learn over thehour that I'll provide. And Dara
(07:00):
does GMis a good partnership. There
said okay, I'll do therespiratory chapter. And she
wrote it up. And it was it wasawesome, very much like the
first edition of the book. Andwe sent it out to I don't know,
four or five differentpublishers. And one wrote back
and said, we liked this.
(07:25):
And I remember we went to thecoop, at the time in across the
street from Boston Children'sand we opened up a book to
figure out neonatology books,potential publishers, and that's
how we found the means of, youknow, where to send our proposal
to. And of course, it, you know,we the idea of oh, here are
(07:47):
these cards in front of us,let's translate them into a
document a Word document, thatseems so simple, but it's not
that simple. And it was so timeconsuming. We had to go back to
the original sources. Remember,you come here, I remember
sometimes you had this graph onyour index, where you couldn't
remember where it was from, weweren't quite sure about the x
(08:09):
axis. And that was difficult,much
Ben (08:13):
more than I can only imagine how when you you move
from my your own notes to abook, there must be like, Oh,
what about all the things that Itake for granted that I might
need to actually spell out inthe book for people who are not
so comfortable with some of theareas that I'm comfortable with?
Unknown (08:29):
Yeah, you know, I think he evolved even more with the
latest edition, because we triedto move a little bit deeper and
give a bit more background onthe topic, a bit more
explanation, a bit more diagramsand tables to solidify the
concepts. And I remember wewould joke around, I'm like, you
know, they're I'm not sure theyneed a picture of like the six
(08:52):
finger for bollocks. We werejust really just trying to not
assume anything, but then it'sstriking a balance between
making something concise and tothe point and high yield versus
too much and get lost in theweeds. And that's exactly that's
Ben (09:12):
exactly right. I mean, I remember a discussion I had with
I was fortunate enough to be ina in a writing course with Neil
deGrasse Tyson. And he keptsaying, you strike the right
balance when you know when toexplain enough, but not to, but
not much. And that's when goodscience writing is achieved. And
I think that's why your booksare so popular because it really
feels like as as a trainee. Itdoesn't break it down to a
(09:35):
pediatric resident level, butit's at its exactly at the right
level. So yeah, I agree.
Daphna (09:43):
Yeah, I remember when I first started looking through
the book, and I said, Why didn'tanybody tell me to get this on
the first day of fellowship sothat I didn't know what I was
talking about along the way, notjust in, you know, studying for
the boards. I think it wouldhave been helpful, even more. So
had I had I used it that way?
How long did it take from kindof idea talking to the publisher
(10:06):
to kind of books on the shelf?
Unknown (10:12):
Well, we started, we took our exam in 1999. Right,
that was our initialcertification Cami. And then we
published the book in 2003. So Ithink and I think I think I
remember talking to you can beright after the board exam and
said, we've got to do this, wehave to, literally, we finished
(10:36):
the exam. And then we said,let's do the book. And so we
just went with it. Iwas afraid I failed. That was
the other sort of emphasis,
Ben (10:43):
I was gonna say, the level of confidence to come out of the
board exam saying, We shouldwrite the book.
Unknown (10:55):
Right, it was born out of I'm going to have to do this
again. So let's organize thesenotes.
Remember, we went to someexperts? There was? Yeah. I
think is she's passed away sincebut she was amazing physiologist
and respiratory, like sort ofventilation and perfusion. And I
(11:16):
think we had to meet with herthree times to understand that
was way over. We were much moreworried about putting out
content that was physiologicallyincorrect. And so we did for the
most of the chapters, we didhave a a reviewer, somebody who
said, Sure, you know, I'll takea look at the content, make sure
(11:37):
you're not saying anything verywrong. And we didn't necessarily
do that in this latest, but wedid with the first edition.
Ben (11:45):
And so the first edition was was not self published,
then? No, no, correct. And so,for the people who are not
familiar with the differenteditions, there's we're
currently in the neonatologyreview books were in we are at
the third edition. And and therewas this departure in 2010, for
the second edition, where youdecided to Self Publish and make
(12:09):
the books available for fordirect sort of ordering on
lulu.com, which is a selfpublishing website. Can you tell
us a little bit what create whatmotivated this departure towards
self publishing?
Unknown (12:23):
Sure. So at the time, most of our content in the first
edition, and future editions, asCAMI said was physiology based,
but there was some content thatwe thought was outdated, and we
thought, we can improve uponeven some of the explanations.
So we wanted to publish a secondedition, and I think that was
(12:43):
about five or six years later.
And at that time handlingbelfius, they had been bought by
Elsevier, and Elsevier is a verylarge publishing company. And we
went to them and said, We wantto publish the second edition.
And they were not interested.
This was sort of like a verysmall book. For them, the number
of sales were not significantenough for them to think about
(13:03):
publishing it. And so here'swhere they're regretting. Yeah,
so they did come back to uslater. So this is where CAMI is
the idea, man. And so she hadthis brilliant idea to self
publish the book. And I thinkyou were the one who found an
(13:23):
article about Lulu. And therewas a comparison between Lulu
and Amazon. And we thought theadvantages of Lulu at the time
were better. And they were moreinvested just in self
publishing, and just with books,as opposed to Amazon that had
already started to grow. In soElsevier, they gave us the
(13:44):
publishing rights. And we thenset out to create the book in a
word, document. And easy and sowe try to mimic the formatting
the first edition pretty muchexactly. And so we learned so
much about formatting,formatting more than we ever
wanted to know. So for example,how to change line spaces, how
(14:05):
to condense words, and how todraw images, we to at least all
my images, I drew throughMicrosoft Word, and it was so
much more challenging than wehad anticipated. And we
published that second edition in2010. And a few years later,
actually, Elsevier did come backto us. I'm sure they did. Yeah,
(14:25):
and they wanted to publish athird edition. But by that time,
we were just really happy if wehad done so much legwork even
that it didn't really make senseeven converting
to PDF. We're a challenge thatwe had to learn to convert
Ben (14:39):
to PDF and the margins are a shifted
Unknown (14:45):
right the picture changes on the page. And what is
nice about Lulu is that we wecan change on the dime like if
someone writes us and say, Oh,you've got you know, a two here
instead of a three You have adivided instead of multiplied
whatever error it is, we canmake that change. And the next
(15:05):
order of that book would reflectthe change. So that's really
nice that it allows us real timeediting and updating almost
Ben (15:14):
because it's Lulu functions as a print on demand sort of
system. Exactly. Yes.
Unknown (15:19):
Yes. And so that was perfect. And then also to you
know, I just I don't know whyany, any medical person would
not self publish anymore,because the publishers take
everything. I think we were likethey every sale of a book there,
and I like shared 5% of whateverthat sale was. Now, it's
(15:41):
essentially opposite of Lulu, wecan talk about what we're doing
with those funds. But, I mean,why would you why would you not
want to do that, where Lulurespected sort of the the
content developers? Yeah,
Ben (15:55):
yeah, I think I think there's going to be a need for
shift for a major disruptivesort of change in the
publishing, especially inmedical publishing, considering
that when a book is beingpublished, like you said, it
goes out of date pretty quickly.
Yeah. And, and the reward forthe authors is minimal. I think,
I wrote a chapter for a book.
And they gave me like, I think,50 books or 100 books, and I was
just so happy that I wrote achapter, and that the book
(16:17):
itself, called cost like $1,000,and I said, Can you give me a
copy? And they said, no.
Unknown (16:24):
That's right. Exactly.
I would like to see a lot ofchanges happening in medical
publishing, including journalsand your you know, primary
research, original research. So
Daphna (16:37):
I'm just sitting here thinking about how much work you
guys had to put in, in thosefirst few years, just out of
fellowship. And those few yearsare kind of daunting, even if
you have no side projects,right? Even if you're just
trying to be a new attending. Sohow did you do it? Or how did
(16:59):
the project help you? Did itmake it harder? Did it make it
you know, easier? Had How didthat go?
Unknown (17:05):
I mean, we did a lot of nights and weekends. I remember
my first maternity leave wasterrible. Time, if you remember
that I lived in this teenyapartment. And I we were
working. I think the deadlinewas pretty soon after maternity
leave ended. And I was workingwell, instead of you know,
you're supposed to sleep whenyou're when your baby sleeps, I
(17:27):
was writing and it was terribletime for
a lot of work. But I think wewere also excited about it and
right out of fellowship, right?
You want yours fun, you want toknow everything. So we were
pretty heavy clinically, but Iwas using that to help you know,
you know, fill out the, theholes of the book or content
and, and like I said, I waslike, the smartest I've ever
(17:51):
been was like when we werewriting that. So it was a nice
reinforcement of concepts andpracticing and being an
attending for the first time.
And so I just remember a lot ofwork, but having fun and being
excited about it.
Ben (18:07):
It feels like the great I mean, we it takes a lot of time,
but yet we learned so much. It'sa lot.
Daphna (18:14):
A lot more than we were learning. Yeah, we're learning.
So now I
Unknown (18:19):
wish I got the same benefits. I mean, it's funny,
well, I'll be on call, what arethe NTPs will say, Oh, they'll
tell me some faculty like, Oh,that's interesting there gets in
your book. And I'm like, it musthave been. Because I don't.
Ben (18:30):
I'm gonna jump on that.
Because I wanted to ask thisquestion when you write that
book, not just any book, butthis book, specifically, how do
you deal with the expectationfrom everybody else that you're
going to know everything? And I
Unknown (18:44):
think that's right. It is. And that's and I'm just hey,
I'm honest, what you see is whatyou get, and I'll just, I'll
just say, Hey, I remember towhen I wrote it, I don't know if
I remember it. That must beDeRose chapter because I have
no. So I know half the book kindof well. But it's also
kind of fun to say, Okay, I knowa resource might know exactly
(19:06):
this page where it is. And Icould picture the image in my
mind. I just don't remember whatthe image is image has in it.
But you know, that's helpful,too. But you're right, people
feel like we are so smart. Andwe know all the material that's
in that's not true at all.
Ben (19:21):
It's starting to happen with us where people say, but
you mentioned that article andyou're like
Unknown (19:27):
No, it's just too much to know, right? There's just so
much to know like you said, somany things are changing all the
time. But I think that's wherejust having fun with the process
of of learning and being thatyou know, perpetual learner. I
think you have to enjoy that tosome degree in doing things like
this, the vodcast books but alsoin medicine. Frankly.
Ben (19:51):
I wanted to ask you about the content of the book
specifically because I took myboards. It was wet last year and
I am I'm extremely grateful forthese books to review. And the
content is so onpoint when itcomes to the questions and
what's and the way they're,they're dealt with on the exam.
(20:13):
And so I was wondering, how doyou manage to not drift off and
be too technical? not technicalenough? How do you really strike
that balance that the book isextremely high yield? That's
good.
Unknown (20:27):
It's still high yield?
Because, you know, questions arebeing changed and formatted and,
you know, content being readdiscussed and so, so, right,
we've kind of stuck through tothe base to that. But yeah,
there you wanted to say how Iknow we talked about that the
last round,we definitely did. I mean, we
started off by using theneonatal perinatal medicine
(20:48):
Content Specifications from theAmerican Board of Pediatrics. So
that was kind of our beasts. Andthey've revised that many times
since, and many topics havesince been even eliminated. And,
and we just, that helped usthink to format the outline. And
then it was just sort ofinstinctual, I think, like we
(21:10):
just, you know, had to sort ofthink about what we saw the most
in our clinical experience, andwhat we thought, might need more
clarity. But we didgo item by item and that outline
and made sure we had somecontent under each of those
bullets, something, even if itwas a simple table, or just a
(21:32):
wrapper, we just wanted to makesure we were touching upon it.
And
Ben (21:37):
that's amazing, because then then you're not
collaborating with the ADPmeaning
Unknown (21:42):
no, and in fact, we're not allowed, not even allowed to
serve on the board. You know,both of us do a lot of different
professional activities. And Ikind of was told at one point,
because we do this book, wecan't be part of the process of
vetting questions, coming upwith new questions serving on
the board, which is, which isfine.
(22:05):
What I was gonna say is that,you know, we just want to also
emphasize that this is not theonly book that they should use
when they study for the boards,because there are so many other
things that can need to besupplemented when you're
studying. So the AP has the nearrepeats plus, which is another
case based question, online,option. And then there are two
(22:27):
great board review courses, bothof which Cami and I talk at the
NIO prep sponsored by theAmerican Academy of Pediatrics,
and also this specialty reviewcourse, sponsored by min max. So
it's not we I don't I want toemphasize that it's not you
know, when you're setting footboards, it's not just Starbucks,
there are some supplementarymaterials that you should yeah,
and to alittle bit of what was raised
earlier is that some of theconcepts are the second and
(22:49):
third distillation of us kind ofthinking through it. And you may
need exposure to that first andsecond part that we sort of
don't have outlined there foryou. And so, and going through
it, anything you don'tunderstand or get, you should
definitely just, you know, stepback, look at another source,
look at another primary sourceto make sure you know how to get
(23:12):
to that statement.
Ben (23:15):
Absolutely, definitely. Go ahead.
Daphna (23:17):
Yeah, how do you guys intend for people to use the
books or books like yours? Youknow, read it from start to
finish? Or how would yourecommend working the way
through?
Unknown (23:29):
Yeah. Do you want to know, and we'll get to that it
just what I have most enjoyed iswhen we're speaking at
conferences, or giving a lectureor something. And people would
come up and show us their bookand what they've done and it is
amazing, like we saw, I mean,there were versions where people
(23:53):
have just in the margins wroteevery no possible other people
with like a 20 color palettescheme of highlighting and
sticky notes and underlying andtaping new additional content
because probably doing exactlywhat I just said, they get the
curve they don't quite you know,well maybe I need more and so
they've pasted another somethingin there for them and and so
(24:14):
everybody I think uses itdifferently. And, and one person
I saw basically ripped it all upbut basically wanted to be able
to take a smaller version toStarbucks, it just kind of flip
through it and not carry thisbig book. And that's what really
prompted the volume series. Um,how would I approach it now I
(24:38):
think, I think it is going to bedifferent for everybody. I would
take it in, in in any randomsections, right? Any chapter can
be a standalone, it doesn't haveto be from front to back. I
would almost prioritize it basedon the percent of content on the
boards. So make sure you've gotMFM rest secretory, cardiology
(25:01):
down, and, and then kind of readthrough it anything you don't
understand, go back to theprimary source, fill it in and
make it your own. And thenfollow up with as many questions
as you can. But, you know, we'vetried to be better about some of
the images, but there's gonnathere's gonna be kgs, there's
going to be images, make sureyou have a pattern recognition
(25:23):
that backs up some of thatknowledge.
Ben (25:25):
Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because the new
edition has a ton of images. AndI personally purchase the color
version, so it almost functionas an atlas for certain
chapters. And then you do have aseparate book of just images,
right? How does that work interms of starting this project,
where you probably have to askfor permission for all these
(25:45):
images? Is that even?
Unknown (25:49):
See, this is where Derek does all the heavy
lifting. So Derek can talk aboutthat?
Yeah, I think it depends uponthe chapter. So for dermatology,
there aren't that many resourcesout there where you can actually
copy images. So I found a fewwebsites just randomly by
looking that some were kind andallowed us to publish without
(26:10):
any fee, and some we had toactually pay a significant
amount. And then any diagrams,you see that those have usually
been drawn by us. And they're invery pleasing, very basic
Microsoft Word. We've gottenpretty good at that. And any
algorithms, any flowcharts we'vealso drawn radiology Dara,
(26:31):
Dara reviews, the reading onevery film that's taken every
day in the NICU. So she'llreview the ratings and anything
that's interesting, oh, look,you know, a dose to this and
then she'll will we have a waythat we can de identify and have
permission to do it that way.
Yeah. And so we've saved 1000sof radiographs, MRI CTS. And so
(26:55):
we've, you know, collected thosefor EKGs. Also our EKGs in our
unit, our phone, you know,copied and uploaded into our
computer system, so it's prettyeasy for us to copy, any
abnormality, any abnormal EKGand use that.
Daphna (27:15):
So the books still take up a lot of your time. In
cycles, how do you balance thatwith all of the other things
that you guys have going on, butdifferently?
Unknown (27:28):
Dara, Dara plans months ahead has edits months ahead
sets a deadline and actually,you know, keeps it somehow. And
I will wait to the last minuteand Darryl coming in the office
saying we are publishing nomatter what. Three weeks, and I
haven't seen it thing from you.
I'm like, I'm like, Yeah, Iknow. I gotta cover, you know,
(27:50):
is it and she's like, No, I'mserious, I am gonna be really
angry with you. And I'm like, Iknow, there, I would be too. I
get it, you know, and sureenough, I we just work
differently. I will go all outevery day, 12 hours a day, 15
hours a day, till I feel goodabout something. And I know
that's in me. And that's how Ido it. deras is much more of a
(28:11):
steady, steady workforce anddoesn't like that last minute
frenetic. But you did have toadmit you're like, Wow, you did
do a good job. It was at thelast minute got
Daphna (28:23):
it done. All of us, then.
Ben (28:30):
That's right. That's right.
Was there any issues of workingon this type of book, all the
while being having an academicappointment when it comes to
intellectual property? And theuniversity ever stepped in and
said, Hey, like, we want alittle bit of what you guys are
doing? Or was that not an issue?
Because I feel like this issomething that for anybody who
(28:51):
has any type of an academicappointment, it might be a fear
to even start on somethingbecause you might sell
something, it's gonna belong tothe university anyway. Was that
an issue for you guys?
Unknown (29:01):
Now, we were very fortunate.
Wondering why wasn't it? Yeah, Idon't know. It was and there
were they're aware of it. It'slike on our CV and
but in our department also thereisn't an issue. We are working
on cases, defense cases orplaintiff cases, that that's not
something that we have to getapproval about either. Yeah. Or
(29:23):
pay our department as a certainpercentage. I know that other
departments have that issue.
Ben (29:30):
In our show prep you you sent us a topic where you said
that the police had to beinvolved at some point in time
because you were being takenadvantage of can you tell us a
little bit what that's about?
Unknown (29:43):
Yes, so this was really interesting. So in 2017, we had
a strange situation where bookswere being bought illegally. And
this was through Lulu and Lilyactually had to involve the
police. So there was a scam.
Let's see if I can explain this.
(30:04):
So there was a scam where agroup of people in Mississippi,
they were hired to buy manycopies of our books. So
sometimes over 20 at a time, soLulu shipped 20 copies to the,
to their address. And in turn,what they did is they shipped
them someplace, internationallyto some international address
(30:26):
and where we assumed that theythen got resold. What it turns
out is that they were usingstolen credit cards to make
those purchases. Yeah, so Luludid not. They lost a lot of
money on this. Because they werethey didn't realize that they
(30:47):
were stolen credit cards, andthey were shipping the books to
this address in Mississippi andhundreds of books. This was and
so the police stopped the groupfrom buying more books. And they
weren't able to ever track downthe ringleaders. But what was
interesting is Lulu because ofthis, they increase their
security around credit cardpurchases. And they also have
(31:11):
this fraud system that so thatthey can monitor addresses more
closely so that one addressdoesn't receive a ton of books.
And my husband who spent yearsas a federal prosecutor tells me
that it's common to have thiskind of fraud streets scheme
where the bad guys buy itemsthat can be easily resold like
(31:34):
TVs and phones, and they usestolen credit cards. But it's
really funny to for us to thinkof our book being such a
commodity that criminalsthere was also another dare I
remember when we we came acrossanother review book. And it was
still in the coop was stillopen. And I was like, oh, you
(31:57):
know, cool. And I was lookingthrough it. I'm like, this looks
like really? A lot of contentword for word. Yeah.
And I reached out to the authorand sort of explained that that
was plagiarism. And they they'rewelcome to use it, but they at
(32:17):
least need to cite or book orput the words in quotes. And I
never followed through to see ifthey did that. Yeah,
Ben (32:25):
that's crazy. Did you ever think there was a dramatic
increase in neonatology activityand businesses booming over
there?
Unknown (32:37):
It was because Darryl will track this thing. It was
some kind of blip in newactivity that alerted you. Yeah.
Daphna (32:46):
Interesting. Yeah. What other kind of obstacles? I'm
sure there were other bumpsalong the way.
Unknown (32:55):
Um, you know, not really, I think we I, again,
it's, it's helpful to have apartner you work well with. And
my obstacle is time, I just doway too many things. And in the
Styles being a little different,but nothing else really.
I think since this last edition,we would have included even more
visuals and more photographs. Ifwe could have like, there's only
(33:21):
so many things that we can draw.
And that was a challenge to findmaterial that we would have
wanted to use, but we justdidn't have any access or
ability to find that content.
Ben (33:35):
Any interesting stories or things you could share with us
about the potential globalimpact the book has had, because
we tend to think about this asreally a review book for the
American Academy of Pediatricsor of neonatology board. But I'm
sure that this has been usedacross the world. And I'm
curious to see how people areusing it outside the US.
Unknown (33:56):
Well, we did receive this amazing picture from
someone in Saudi Arabia, who washolding a copy of our first
edition in front of the mostfamous building in Saudi Arabia,
and called the macaque clocktower. And that was really
special to see our book and thatpicture has a gentleman holding
(34:21):
the art book and in thebackground is the clock tower,
surrounded by a lot of otherpeople from Saudi Arabia who
were on this religious, I thinkexpedition at the time, it was
just fascinating to see our bookin that type of environment.
No, absolutely. And there hasbeen a few letters and pictures
(34:41):
of you know, folks with theirbooks, and it's almost I was
telling Darren, it's almost likethe Travelocity no more of like,
I want everyone to start justtaking a trip somewhere in the
world with the book and we cancollect it and make a wall out
of it. But yeah, it definitelyhas global presence and that
picture really solidifies it forus. We both have that picture in
(35:05):
our office, and I love it. And Ilove it. Because it just, you
know, sometimes you just takefor you don't realize the impact
you can have sometimes. Andthat's a reminder to that. And
in the same thing a little bitwith Zoom, or, you know, people
are now in this new with Zoomare able to tune in and learn
and listen to things they didn'thave access to before. So
(35:28):
yeah, and I think including ouremail addresses, yeah. In the
very beginning, that empoweredpeople, I think our readers to
feel connected with us a littlebit. And so we have heard over
the years from so many people,US, Canada, Kuwait,
they were often the feedback, wealways see a little blip in our
(35:49):
email activity right before anexam. Like you said, calcium was
good hear. Hear, can youexplain? Wow, so
Ben (36:00):
an unintended benefit of self publishing to I think
there's this human aspect whenyou open the book that there's
no, it's a direct interactionwith the authors. There's
nobody, there's no bigcorporation overseeing and
really is in between, I feellike you put the address of
where to send mail to, I thinkin the in the preface, so, yeah,
right off the bat, it's like,these are going to be my
(36:21):
buddies, they're gonna help me.
The you know, we
Unknown (36:26):
definitely want, you know, people to be successful.
Yeah.
Ben (36:31):
One of the benefits of self publishing is that you get to
make a lot more money foryourself, and and you have had
dedication to trying to dosomething good with that income.
And can you tell us a little bitas to how you're giving back
some of these revenue towardseducation and doing some some
net positive around the world?
Unknown (36:53):
Sure. So we do think it's really important to give
back and in after we publishedthe question and answer book
outline was actually written byfellows and junior attendings
locally. So we, and we editedthat book. So we thought that it
was important to give backlocally, and we created this
(37:14):
Excellence in Teaching Award toacknowledge one of our first
year fellows who in our program,who prioritizes teaching, and we
give them $1,000 That sponsorsregistration and travel to a
national scientific meeting oftheir choice. So far, we've
given out 10 awards, and I thinkit's just especially, it's
(37:38):
really a nice way to acknowledgehow important teaching is and
how we value that. So that's onething that we do. And then the
second thing, this one, westarted a low bid leader, I
think it was in 2006. Teambecause we've sponsored six
awards so far. We have it has aterrible title, we're gonna have
(37:58):
to change this company. But theBeth Israel, Deaconess
neonatology Foundation EducationResearch Awards sponsored, press
good, Martin. Yeah, exactly. Andso the eighth through the AAP,
we have people apply for thisaward alongside the Marshall
class awards. And we provide$5,000 to fund a fellow's
(38:22):
research project with a focus oneducation. So we're really,
really excited about both ofthose opportunities. And we're
always thinking of other ways.
So IF listeners have anothersuggestion about how we can give
back and shoot us an email,yeah, we'll
Ben (38:38):
put your contact info in the in the show description. And
we'll obviously put the links toin the show notes to the to the
books on lulu.com. and stuff. Sothat's that's kind of that's
great youth. You see, whenyou're giving out these awards,
and you're trying to supportteaching, do you feel that you
have become better motivatorsfor education and teaching
(39:00):
because of the books? Or wasthat always there?
Unknown (39:05):
I think for us, it was always there. I would like to
see, I would like to see morepeople interested in it,
frankly. You know, we do we doget a handful of applications
every year, and I think it'sincreased a little bit, but I
want a lot I want, you know, alot of people interested and I
think if more people are maybewe would then give a couple of
words and not just one award.
But I just think it's soimportant that I I wish more
(39:27):
people are involved in it insome way.
Daphna (39:34):
Well, if people haven't had the opportunity to see you
all, give lectures, live youryour tremendous teachers in
addition to the work that you'vedone with the book and obviously
you mentioned some of theconferences and the review
courses that you guys arerecurrently a part of. Maybe you
(39:54):
can tell our viewers a littlebit about your kind of new
course Sydney neonatal insiderAre? Oh,
Unknown (40:01):
yeah, that's, that's, um, that is we're taking part in
it. We're not. We're not likethe developers of it. But it
comes from two neonatologist whowere very involved in the
pediatrics neonatal specialtyreview. And they, you know, I
think, again, in these difficulttimes, it's hard to have when we
(40:24):
push out alternative forms ofeducation, the live conferences
have been somewhat limited. Andso they were the brainchild
behind the let's, let's bringlargely what we've done before,
but wanted to add sort of astate of the art spin to it. Not
just to, you know, to gear for aboard review, but really start
(40:46):
thinking, what's the latestliterature? How does this inform
practice? And yeah, and that gotstarted, and I think it's been
received well, and I opened thefirst lecture with Jim Moore.
And I think the second one willbe at the end of August. But
it's going to be a curriculumover a couple of years. So I
think that's just going tocontinue to grow to
Ben (41:05):
that's exciting. I want to move away from the books. And I
want to talk about yourprofessional relationship. I
feel like when collaboration isalways difficult, and especially
when you are emotionallyinvolved in a project, can you
what is in your opinion, thesecrets to a successful
partnership, when it comes to acreative endeavor? The Martin
(41:30):
Brodsky edition?
Unknown (41:33):
I think a good sense of humor, yes. And patience, I
think patients with each otherstyle, because we have the
opposite style, as you heard mesay before, and so and we'd like
each other. And we also have theI think there's similar physics
as physicians, like we have thesame view, understand the
(41:55):
physiology first, and then wecan think about the path of is
and yeah, I think our, ouroverview about how we provide
clinical care is very similar. Ithink
communication too. And in tryingto understand, the other person
might get defensive, I think itcould have been maybe a younger,
(42:16):
more immature self of me, itwould have been easy, you know,
when Dara said, you, you got todo this, if you don't, I'm just
gonna be really, I could havebeen like, Hey, you don't know
my style, you know, I'll getupset. It's like, Yeah, I think,
you know, I understand that it'sa lot of work. And she shouldn't
be angry with me if I don't pullthrough. And so it's really just
keeping your eye on the prizeand being patient and keeping
(42:40):
those communication channelsopen. And I think I told Derek,
listen, if if we get to x pointand you don't see something,
then I know I'm in trouble, thenI know that I've waited too long
or if I've done too much, andthen then I'll let you know,
then we can sit down andstrategize again. And I think
that's been really helpful justto be able to communicate well
(43:03):
with each other even though likeI said, the styles are different
there's a lot that is similarbut the the work styles a little
different.
Ben (43:11):
It's interesting, right?
How these these these endeavors,who are supposed to really boost
your ego and make you feel likeyou're the king of the world.
actually bringing give you alesson in humility, I think yes.
That's, that's what I'm trying.
That's what I'm hearing fromfrom both of your answers. I
think that's very interesting.
Sorry, definitely, we're gonnasay something
Daphna (43:33):
No, I'm wondering especially because your styles
are different. And you know, wehave lots of listeners who are
doing collaborative work if youguys use any kind of tools to
help with your communication oryour collaboration and keep each
other on track. No,
Unknown (43:51):
I started out with an owl I think we created five
different calendars with anoutline
and a calendar and then there'sthe the ideal calendar for
Canada. I usually meet mine andthen the next deadline is sort
of like where I'm not so happybut I'll accept and then like,
(44:16):
really,
Ben (44:17):
the eviction notice that
Unknown (44:21):
there is there's a lot of days where it was going to be
broadsky And I wouldn't and Ihad to have like said okay, I
deserve that. But I think youknow what I think what allows
that I guess I would just say issort of that open door policy
you know, we were opposite endsof the hall but the same hallway
and I know I can call Daraanytime and I know I can knock
(44:46):
on her office door anytime andhopefully she feels the same
with me and and having that openrelationship and enjoying the
differences. Again, I thinkwe're more alike than different
but, but enjoying thosedifferences and being able, as
Sara said, to have a sense ofhumor about it and joke about
the differences. But in the end,you know, I think we both take
(45:08):
seriously having an excellentproduct out there and meeting a
timeline that's reasonable sothat people can actually use the
product. You know, the goalsremain the same. So that's
helpful.
Ben (45:19):
It's interesting. You say that, because I follow you on
Twitter, Dr. Martin, and I saw,I remember that one post that
you had about, I think you'reusing the note taking app called
Rome research. Yes. For thepeople who may not be familiar,
it's it's a note taking appwhere you can actually link
keywords and basically recreatea little bit of of your new your
(45:40):
own neural network, and thedifferent connections you're
making between concepts andnotes. And so
Unknown (45:46):
I was, you know, my dream, my dream is to turn that
into a realm research document.
Really, it's like, I don't thinkI've talked to Derek. Right
ahead.
I think we should stop thispodcast.
I'm always coming up like, thetimestamps, and then I leave
(46:09):
there to pick up all the pieces,I'm having palpitations, I have
a lot of work in the next monthor so Kenny, don't say, don't
tell us the idea.
It's, it's, it's a powerfulconcept of note taking, like Ben
was saying, and that it, youknow, you can highlight, and tag
almost, but highlight veryimportant concepts. But what it
(46:30):
does is it starts to linkdocuments together that you just
can't link naturally, becauseyou can only remember so much or
link so much in your head. Butif I, you know, if I linked on
arachidonic acid, I would, Icould potentially have every
cross reference from physiologyto disease to the current
research or whatever, you haveto build it, whatever it is. So
(46:51):
to have a book where you canlink these critical concepts,
and then you can just click onthat concept. And now that
thread of that topic acrossevery chapter is now on that
page for you to review, and youstart to synthesize the bigger
picture and understand thebigger picture. So yeah, I'm in
love with that app, I think itpotentially could be used for
(47:14):
textbooks. And I've beenthinking about that. But
Ben (47:17):
I think I don't know if it's going to be I don't know
how the format would would lenditself to an actual book, but
the idea of, of having it maybeon a screen where it could be
dynamic, and where you canunderstand how one concept
touches on so many others.
Unknown (47:32):
Exactly, exactly. And I think ultimately, we want to be
like that as physicians, right?
That you have some, you know,symptom, and you can immediately
link across systems, thepotential and the impact of
that. And, you know, some of usdo it better than others. But,
you know, ultimately, that'swhat you would like to attain.
So right,
Ben (47:53):
we're looking forward to the
Daphna (48:01):
first future,
Unknown (48:03):
well, maybe before Roe research textbook would be you
know, we would like to have somesort of, you know, everyone
keeps asking for the digital,the digital version, or a online
version of a course. And, andwe've had some ideas, we've
played some with some platforms,time is the only factor. But
(48:24):
hopefully, hopefully over theyears, we'll be able to evolve
into other formats of learning.
Yeah,
Ben (48:31):
a masterclass would be fitting. Yeah,
Unknown (48:33):
exactly. Exactly.
I'm a big fan of the KhanAcademy, where they have very
short clips of very one concepteasily, you know, but explained
from starting with thephysiology, and I think that
really lends itself so well toour content. So that's a dream
(48:53):
that I'm going to push back Camiand Sam like that went to
France. Sounds good. And what'swhat's
compromise? I just say, okay, ofcourse.
Ben (49:04):
I think that's what's cool, right? The fact that you you
guys are you have achievedsomething that's that's of high
significance, and yet the wheelsare continuing to turn and do
projects. It's that's reallycool.
Unknown (49:16):
Though, yeah, no, absolutely.
Daphna (49:18):
Yeah, I was struck by the fact that it seems like the
ideas are just flowing. And infact, Dr. Martin, we got to peek
into your office earlier today.
And so we know that you have awhiteboard full of more ideas
and projects. So you know, Ithink we're all we're all trying
to navigate no matter you know,what, what your job is like
(49:40):
balancing this like multipleprojects and kind of work life
balance. So how do you guys doit?
Unknown (49:51):
Yeah, from you know, from a professional standpoint,
I think and then we'll go into apersonal one, I guess our work
life but professionally, you dohave to if you're an actor,
genomic medicine, you have tokeep your eye on the target of
what sort of metrics arenecessary for you to kind of
keep advancing along thatpipeline. And so the tracks that
(50:12):
Dara and I are, are different.
And that's why our style mightbe a little different, just
because the price, how we placedthe priority, not that it's not
a priority. But some things thatI gotta get done first, maybe a
grant or a paper. So I have toget that out. Because that's my
academic life. And so it's,it's, I think, you just need to
be aware of that, and youdefinitely do other projects.
(50:34):
But I wouldn't do other projectsuntil you feel like you if
you're going to do academicmedicine that you've sort of
mastered, you know, what thatlooks like, what what do you
have to get done and you'realong that pathway? For
I was just also add that I thinkit's important to do something
(50:54):
you're really passionate about,because then you're going to
find time, out of your day,either late in the evening, or
on the weekends, or in themiddle of the day, if you're
really invested in something ityou know, your your life, work
balance, it's easier to findtime for that.
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And,you know, for me, it'll all work
(51:15):
life balance. It's, it's whatyou enjoy at that moment. I
mean, there's going to be timeswhere I have to commit to more
of what's happening at home andkids and activities. And there's
gonna be other times that allowsme to commit more to the work
and projects like this. And so Idon't have the answer for that.
Except that I'm I'm not happierand better person, when I feel
(51:38):
like I'm I'm making progress inboth. And I can sense I'll feel
whether I have to switchdirections, but also something
that I've learned because I'vedefinitely more work minded. So
I'm not an expert on work life.
But I think there's theseindirects that happen when your
family sees you working, or yourkids see you working, and I've
heard them say and share withothers things that I didn't
(52:01):
think they were observing, orthey were seeing that they
clearly were. And then I had thejoy of being at I think the 2000
must have been right after book.
So 2012, maybe Neo prep, and Ibrought the kids and all the
fellows are people taking thecourse were like by the pool
(52:21):
with the book. And I rememberlater in the day, they're like,
whoa, like they didn't quite getit like everyone. And I just had
to laugh. So anyway, you know, Ithink we when we talk about work
life, we have to remember howthat expression ourselves and
work. Our kids see that. And Ithink there's a lot of good to
that too.
Ben (52:42):
I could not agree with you more number one, because I did
see my my own parents workreally hard and being dedicated
professionals. And we never feltlike this was taken away from
us. We always felt like this wasan example to follow. But I
think more importantly, what youguys are describing is that
sometimes we have this guiltthat if we cannot fit in work
within our routine sort ofstandard week, then we feel like
(53:03):
we shouldn't even do it. Butit's not supposed to be a
constant. It's supposed to bevariable, you should be able to
say, well, I'm going toaccelerate that work for this
period of time, and then focuson that later on. And that's
perfectly okay. And I think theguilt that sometimes we have
should not be there. And you'rethe example that we can actually
get stuff done in that way.
Unknown (53:20):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I don't think it has to be a
dichotomy at all. It's veryfluid.
Ben (53:25):
We're coming to the end of the episode. So I want to ask my
last question. And I knowdefinite has has one more at
least one more question. Iwanted to I wanted to ask you,
if you had not gone intoneonatology, where would you
have been today?
Unknown (53:44):
You want to take that Tara?
I think Yeah. This one's prettyeasy for me. I would have been
some type of teacher forcertain. Yeah, I probably have
children.
Ben (53:57):
Younger terms.
Unknown (54:02):
Yeah, I really I love.
I love that I'm very passionateabout teaching. And you know,
helping people learn. A verychallenging topic is especially
very rewarding when I seesomeone understand that. So I
see that with my kids. I try toteach them. Well. First, I
learned the material myself,because I've forgotten so much
(54:23):
of it. But then if they need myhelp, then I'll teach them after
I've explored the internet alittle bit. And I really enjoy
that. That's.
So this won't come as a surprisesince we had a sort of a fan
moment about Rome research. Iwould love to be a programmer. I
love digital stuff. I lovecreating tools that make your
(54:45):
job easier, but not just easier,but connects things that you
wouldn't otherwise connect andallow you to do things you
otherwise wouldn't be able todo. And so to be a facile
programmer and create tools, Iwould love that What about the
two of you? Oh, really?
Ben (55:05):
I agree. I mean, I taught, I taught for a while I enjoy
teaching tremendously. And I amgetting back into teaching now.
Because I just I just like thatso much, but I'm very big on
engineering design computerscience. So yes, both of your
both of your answers.
Daphna (55:29):
Yeah, for me, yeah, I'd probably have gotten into
psychology, which makes sense.
If anybody listens to thepodcasts. That's what I have my
family's full of psychologists.
Admittedly, it was myundergraduate major double
major, obviously, with somethingmedical. But yes, I just love
(55:52):
walking with families throughsome of the difficult kind of
ups and downs of the neonataladmission. And so certainly,
that's one of my, my areas ofinterests. My last question,
while we still have a little bitof time together, is and you
(56:12):
touched on it a little bit, buthow do you how do you deal with
the celebrity status? And, youknow, you mentioned that your
kids had seen your book, but dothey know that you're, you're
really kind of neonatalcelebrities?
Unknown (56:26):
I don't know if they knew that, um, how do I handle I
think it's, I think it's great,I actually very appreciative
that everyone, you know, enjoyswhat we've done, and that it was
of use, and I was able to giveback to the neonatal community
in some way and, and hopefully along lasting way, love when they
come up and talk about the bookand, and show us all how you
(56:49):
know, how they've worked withthe book. It's all it is all
very nice to see I do jokesometimes, because, as you may
know, I also do, you know,research and, and I always joke
that I can stand up and give atalk about how I cured neck, but
the first question is going tobe about my book. No one's
gonna. And that's, that's fine.
I that.
Ben (57:11):
I don't want to hear the hits, you know?
Unknown (57:14):
That's right. So, so it's been nice. Yes.
Yeah. It's been wonderful. Isometimes I'm a little
embarrassed by, you know, sortof the celebrity status
sometimes if we're going to aconference, but I enjoy talking
to people and, and hearingsuggestions about how to improve
things. That's how we'veevolved, I think, hearing from
(57:37):
readers about ways of improvingthings, and we've definitely
incorporated ideas that we'veheard from other people. So keep
them coming. Yes. Right. Yeah.
Ben (57:47):
Yeah. That's great. Well, we'll
Daphna (57:51):
connect you to some listeners for sure.
Ben (57:53):
Yeah. Is that Is that okay for us to share your email
address in the show notes?
Unknown (57:58):
We would love to hear from them. And yeah, we want to
grow weed and things arechanging all the time. So
Ben (58:03):
yeah, that's that's a that's another topic I wanted to
to address. But I guess I guessthat will be for next time, but
you guys can get the neonatologyreview books at Lulu publishing.
And we'll put all the links inthe show notes. Dr. Brodsky, Dr.
Martin, thank you so much fortaking the time and for being so
cordial answering our questions.
It was it was lovely.
Unknown (58:25):
Thank you for the
Ben (58:29):
happy to have you. Thank you for listening to this week's
episode of the incubator. If youliked this episode, please leave
us a review on Apple podcast orthe Apple podcast website. You
can find other episodes of theshow on Apple podcasts, Spotify,
Google podcast or the podcastapp of your choice. We would
love to hear from you. So feelfree to send us questions,
(58:50):
comments or suggestions to ouremail address NICU
podcast@gmail.com. You can alsomessage the show on Instagram or
Twitter at NICU podcast.
Personally, I am on Twitter atDr. Nikhil spelled Dr. NICU. And
Daphna is at Dr. Dafna MD.
Thanks again for listening andsee you next time. This podcast
is intended to be purely forentertainment and informational
(59:13):
purposes and should not beconstrued as medical advice. If
you have any medical concerns,please see your primary care
practitioner. Thank you
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