January 14, 2025 • 60 mins
Leah Fisher shares her transformative journey of self-discovery, which began after her father's death and culminated in a life-changing solo marriage sabbatical in her 60s. For over 40 years, she held a dream of joining the Peace Corps but let societal expectations steer her away from it.
After facing personal loss, Leah confronted her regrets and decided to embrace her long-held aspiration. This led her to explore the world and engage in meaningful service projects. From working with children affected by a mudslide in Guatemala to participating in disaster mental health efforts after an earthquake in Java, Leah found renewed purpose and fulfillment. Her story highlights the healing power of pursuing one's dreams at any age and the importance of redefining what it means to live a fulfilling life.
Takeaways:
- Her solo marriage sabbatical in her 60s allowed her to embrace self-discovery.
- She emphasizes that age should not limit the pursuit of one's passions or dreams.
- Leah's journey shows that it's never too late to redefine what fulfillment means.
Retired psychotherapist Leah Fisher worked for 35 years as a psychotherapist, marital counselor, and corporate consultant. During that time, she brought her expertise to television programs, including The Oprah Winfrey Show and 60 Minutes, and to media outlets, including Newsweek and The Wall Street Journal’s “Work and Family” column.
Although she is pleased with her professional accomplishments, she is incredibly proud to have traveled the world alone for a year. Fisher is a self-proclaimed “wild and crazy grandma” to four young grandchildren. She lives with her husband near Berkeley, California.
Website: mymarriagesabbatical.com
Purchase Leah's Book: https://www.mymarriagesabbatical.com/my-marriage-sabbatical-book-by-leah-fisher
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(00:00):
What it triggered and what itshifted was, when it's my turn to
die, what am I really going toregret not having done? And boom,
there was the dream. It hadbeen in my back pocket for the better
part of 40 years. Like it wasthere, but that wasn't where my focus
(00:24):
was. Suddenly it slipped outof my pocket and it was right in
my face.
Today's episode is with LeahFisher and we had such a great time
in this. In fact, after thefact, she said that she really enjoyed
our conversation and at firstshe had to learn the dance, but once
she learned the dance of ourconversation, she had a really great
(00:44):
time. So I hope that you canhear that within this episode. I
think you'll be able to. ButLeah is a retired psychotherapist
who really kept dreaming on adream that she put in her back pocket
for so many years. So she tookthis dream beyond the conventional
way that I think so many of uswould do. And she took a life changing
(01:06):
solo marriage sabbatical inher 60s. Her journey is really this,
I don't know, testament to thepower of being bold and audacious
and having the courage topursue these long held dreams no
matter where you are in yourlife. In this episode, she shares
this story of embracing theunknown. From her, dare I say, transformative
(01:31):
experiences in the Amazonjungle to these heartfelt encounters
around the world during hersabbatical. This really is just an
episode about self discoveryand the healing power of storytelling
and redefining what it meansto live a fulfilling life. So I hope
you enjoy this conversationwith Leah Fisher. Without further
(01:51):
ado, here is thatconversation. I'm Matt Gilhooly and
this is the Life Shift candidconversations about the pivotal moments
that have changed livesforever. Hello, my friends. Welcome
(02:13):
to the Life Shift podcast. Iam here with Leah. Hello, Leah.
Hi.
Thank you for joining. Thankyou for wanting to be a part of the
Life Shift podcast.
First of all, I am indeedhappy to participate.
Well, we were talking a littlebit before recording and I really
hope that this show issomething that people look at as
(02:34):
like these conversations thatthey wish people were having. These
like real conversations withreal questions that maybe we shy
away from asking or sharingthese particular stories. So it's
just been such a journey.You're. I think I've talked to like
165 people now in this littlejourney that started out as a school
(02:54):
assignment during thePandemic. I got a second master's
degree and I took a podcastingclass and I had to start. Well, I
Didn't have to start apodcast. I just had to do two episodes.
And I did. And the Life Shiftpodcast was born in that class. And
the show really stayed. Stemsfrom my own personal experience.
When I was 8, my mom waskilled in a motorcycle accident.
(03:16):
And that day, my dad. I wasvisiting my dad, who my parents lived.
My dad lived in Georgia, mymom lived in Massachusetts. And on
that day, I walked into mydad's office, and he sat me down
and he had to tell me that mymom had died in the accident. And
at that moment in time,everything that was ever going to
exist in my life changed,right? I lived with my mom full time.
(03:39):
I was just visiting my dad,who lived in a different state. So
everything my school changed,my. My parent essentially changed.
The way that I was growing upwas going to change. And this was
late 80s, early 90s, and atthat time, people weren't really
talking about therapy or griefor those kind of things. And especially
for a kid, or at least in the.In the world that I lived in, people
(04:01):
weren't doing that. And sogrowing up, I just felt, do other
people have these, like, linein the sand moments in which life
is just so different afterthat moment? And so I've had this
opportunity to talk to so manypeople about many, many life shifts
and my naivety or my naiveteat the beginning that maybe we only
have one big life shift. It'snot true. We have a lot of them,
(04:23):
and we have a lot of differentshifts in our lives that have brought
us here. And so I'm just sohonored that people like yourself
and, you know, basicallystrangers across the world, I've
had this opportunity to learnand grow and heal from. So that's
a little bit about where theshow comes from for anyone that's
listening for the first time.And. And for you, Leah, So thank
(04:43):
you for being on this journey.
It's quite a painful way todiscover an incredible gift that
you can share with people.
You know, it is. And, youknow, this was 35 years ago or so,
and I look back at it now andlook at all the things that I have
done and learned because ofsuch a tragic moment in my life.
(05:07):
And it's so weird to look backwith, like, a gratefulness of the
things that have happenedbecause of it. Not grateful for the
moment, but grateful for thejourney that I went on afterwards.
And I think that takes a lotto be able to reflect on that. And,
like, it took me a long timeto get here, but, you know, like,
it takes a lot to Be able tolook back and go, well, here are
(05:29):
the good things that came fromsuch a tragic experience. And I'm
sure you probably haveexperienced things like that in your
life where you're like, thatreally sucked. But look what I've
done with it. Is that true?
Yes, at the best of times.
At the best of times? Well,yes. Fair. Well, I think, you know,
it's just a wonderfulopportunity. And here's a little
(05:50):
disclosure for you. And Idon't know if you know this, most
of my listeners know this, butI don't do a lot of research about
my guests. All I know is theintake. I know you have a book. We're
going to talk a little bitabout your book, but I didn't read
any of it because I truly wantthese conversations to unfold in
the way that I think theuniverse wanted them to. And I want
to discover those things forthe first time when you tell them.
(06:11):
That's great, Matt. I happento be someone who loves surprises,
so let's surprise each other.
I'm here for it. So before weget into your detailed story, maybe
you can tell us a little bitabout who you are in today's world.
Okay. Who I am today is aretired psychotherapist who sat in
(06:33):
a chair having intimate andrather loving conversations with
a lot of people, withindividuals and with couples for
about 35 years.
Wow.
Yes. And I closed down mypractice in order to take the one
year solo sabbatical, which iswhat my book is about. And it was
(06:56):
not only a sabbatical from mycareer, it was a sabbatical for my
husband. Not because I had adesire or a reason to be away from
him for a year, but because Iwanted something so much. And he
didn't share that desire, atleast not at that time that the two
(07:21):
of us talked until we agreedthat he would do what he wanted and
I would do what I wanted, andwe'd visit back and forth. And so
that was the year of exploringthe world on my own.
That is probably somethingthat a lot of people probably wish
they could. You also just kindof gave away the secret right here
(07:41):
at the beginning, which is.Which is, you know, it just happens
that way. But I love that.First of all, 35 years of doing what
you did, how does that. Beforewe get into your story, how does
that affect you as a human andhow, like, do you absorb those things?
Do you bring them home withyou? Did you find a way to leave
(08:03):
them there? Like, I canimagine the things that you heard
and. And how you had toprocess, like, how do you as a human
function through 35 years of that?
That's a great question, and alot of people ask me. And the bottom
line is that I'm a caring anda compassionate person, but my role
in the therapeuticrelationship is certainly a heart
(08:27):
connection. But it's alsohelping to figure something out,
helping patients to see whatthey have seen and experienced and
also what options they mightnot have thought of, to have thoughts
about where something camefrom. But perhaps there's something
additional. And so it's acombination of loving and problem
(08:50):
solving, and I'm able to doboth in the session. I guess I don't
carry it home and suffer itbecause I have a task. And I think
many therapists, if theythought hard about it, would. Would
realize that it's not justpulling at your heartstrings. You
(09:12):
care, you feel compassionate.And I have a job to do, which is
to help them explore theexperiences that have had such an
impact on their lives.
And that makes sense, I think.You know, I very loosely relate it
to some of the conversationsthat I have on this podcast in which
(09:34):
I am holding a space. I'm nottrying to solve anything. I'm just
holding a space for a deeplypersonal story, whether that's about
a death or a suicide or like adiagnosis or whatever it is. And
I'm holding this space. And I,through my journey in this podcast,
have had to find ways where Idon't take that out of the conversation
(09:55):
as well. And. And, you know,because having some empathy, you
kind of naturally absorb someof it, and you have to find a way
to protect your own self, too.So that's super curious of 35 years
of it. If you didn't have apractice, you'd probably be really,
really full of a lot of things.
I guess it's funny becausewithout my being aware of it, it
(10:20):
shows. If I'm on an airplanetalking to a stranger in the next
seat, they'll ask me if I'm ateacher or a therapist, and it's
like, whatever. Yes. And whatmade you think of it? So, you know,
you think like it, you talklike it. So anyway, and you listen
sometimes, mostly.
(10:43):
So I think that's important. Ithink. I think it's great. And thank
you for the work that you havedone for that many years, for all
the people out there thatneeded it, because I think that's
such a big job and such a hardjob. And so just thank you before
we jump into your story. It'sso impactful and really honestly,
that's what what helped mewhat I say. And people yell at me
(11:06):
for saying this, but close thedoor on grief about my mom. I finally,
in my early 30s, found atherapist that was the right fit.
Took like 5 or 6 to find theright person that kind of jived with
me. And she said some just asentence to me that like snapped
everything and was like, she'slike, you realize that every decision
(11:26):
that you've made since yourmom died was out of fear as that
8 year old. And I was like,you know, like my whole world like
exploded at that moment. Butit was like people like yourself
in these roles can say like wesaid earlier, one sentence that just
could have heard it a thousandtimes before that, but at that moment
was said the right way. Soagain, thank you for your service.
(11:48):
So you gave us a little bit ofa sneak peek of what your kind of
life, shifting year, if youwill. But maybe you can even break
it down a little bit more ofpaint the picture of what your life
was like leading up to whenyou decided to make this moment.
And then maybe if you canidentify like the specific piece
that you feel reallysignificantly shifted things from
the old Leah to the new Leah.
(12:10):
Well, I'd like to flash allthe way back to being 22 because
I think that's where this wasborn. So I was a very well behaved,
obedient, respecting authorityyoung person, did what was expected
and as you can guess, a bit ofa late bloomer. When I graduated
(12:31):
from college, I really wantedto join the Peace Corps. This was
in the late 60s and the peaceCorps was just being birthed and
it was a very exciting thingto do. It was certainly not the expected
next step after college. Andso I ended up going to graduate school
(12:53):
and forever after regrettedhaving given up this chance to live
in other cultures and giveback and find ways to give back.
So that wish you just like planted.
A seed way back when, you know.
(13:14):
It was a squanderedopportunity. I didn't quite have
the sense of ownership of myown self to feel like I could decide
what I really wanted to do next.
Were you just following a path?
Oh yeah, okay.
Because I talk about that too.Like, and I think mine is trauma
informed, like perfectionist.Like I just did whatever society
(13:36):
told me was next. Like I hadto do well and then go to college
and then get a good job. Youknow, like it was like society's
checklist for me is what Icall it. Were you doing something
similar?
I was love informed, which isto say that I adored my father in
particular, and I did what hethought was a good idea so that you.
(13:57):
Could win his love or keep his love.
You know, that was anexpectation in the family. Let dad
be the top dog. He's a reallysmart guy. He knows just what to
do. And don't you dare have adifferent opinion. And I was very
obedient.
Makes sense. I, I think we're,you know, that's how we grow up.
And we're. I did the samething. I was like. But mine was out
(14:19):
of abandoned fear ofabandonment because I was like, if
I, if my dad doesn't love whatI just did, then he's also gonna
leave because my mom left, you know?
Yeah.
So that's why I always askthat question, because I'm like,
how do we get on this pathwhere we just follow things when
your dream was probably sohuge to go into the, and the Peace
Corps, and then you're justlike, this is the expected route.
(14:42):
I should go that way.
Yep. Well, a lot of mistakesfrom when I was younger, I've been
able to just lay to rest thatone would go away. I was just, I
was mad at myself. It's likeyou wanted this so much. How was
it you were able to talkyourself out of it?
Could you not do itafterwards? Like, was it that one
(15:03):
and only chance? And then itwas like, never an opportunity for
you?
Not until I was 60.
Okay.
Okay. I promise I won't gettoo far ahead of myself. Okay. I
went to graduate school. Iended up becoming a therapist. There
was, you know, it was sociallyuseful. But that bit of following
(15:26):
my bliss never got to happen.And so pretty soon there's dating,
falling in love, gettingmarried, a mortgage, two children
save for college tuition. Andthen there was a moment. Both kids
had graduated from college.They were both self supporting. I'd
been married for 30 years. Itwas a nice, sturdy marriage. Blissful
(15:51):
marriages aren't as many aspeople might pretend or wish for.
But a good, solid, sturdymarriage, that's a long time. And
it is a long time. And thensomething happened that brought that
dream back to life.
Well, first of all, I mean, 30years, I, I'm. I appreciate you saying
(16:12):
that. A blissful marriage islike probably not the reality for
most people. I mean, we'rehumans, right? Like you have to exist
with another human that forthat long. And I'm also imperfect
and too imper. You know, same.
So we've got to stop talkingin that case.
Listen, I thought I wanted tobe perfect for so many years. And
(16:33):
it just hurt me more than ithelped me. So, you know, I think
that I finally learned that I.That like an A plus is not always
attainable. And that's okay.
Yep.
You know, so.
Yep.
You give your marriage like aB plus? Is that what we're saying
for those 30 years?
I'm not going to grade it. Youdo what you want.
(16:55):
So what happened to kind ofshift you back into that bliss seeking?
Well, two things happened. Andthe first and probably the most important
one, my father died. This muchrevered, super smart father died.
(17:16):
And it dawned on me that if myfather could die, I guess I would
too. There's a Buddhistteacher who says, we all know we're
going to die. We just don'tbelieve it. I started to believe
it.
Really?
Yeah.
Because this wasn't the firstperson that had died in your circle.
(17:37):
Right.
It was the first daddy who had died.
Yeah.
And it really packed a punch.So what it triggered and what it
shifted was, when it's my turnto die, what am I really gonna regret
not having done? And boom,there was the dream. It had been
(18:01):
in my back pocket for thebetter part of 40 years. Like, it
was there, but that wasn'twhere my focus was. Suddenly it slipped
out of my pocket and it wasright in my face.
And that's dangerous. It canbe dangerous. Right. Because it makes
you rethink everything. Doesit. Does it go like. Does it make
(18:22):
you have regrets? Or does it.I would imagine it would.
That had been happening allalong. If I would bump into people
talking about the Peace Corps,my gut would clench with. I would
say remorse, but it was alsoshame, you know, what an idiot you
were. And look at theexperience they had. This is sort
(18:46):
of random, but I went with myhusband back to his college reunion,
and we were surrounded by abunch of his classmates, and they
were talking about the PeaceCorps. And I oozled up to them and
said, you know, I applied. Ifilled out that application to go
(19:07):
to the Peace Corps, but Ididn't get in. And they said, why
didn't you get in? And I saidI was scared to mail in the application.
And they said, well, you know,we guys had a good incentive to hand
in ours. The alternative wasgoing to Vietnam. And it was like,
(19:28):
oh, my God. Most all of thepeople that I envied who'd gone to
the Peace Corps had been guysgraduating seniors. And a lot of
them did social serviceexemptions. Peace Corps was one.
That's smart. It'sinteresting, though, because then
(19:48):
you Also get that. Like, wasthere jealousy that came with that
too? I know you said shame andthose kind of things, but did you
have any jealousy?
More yearning? It wasn't like,I wish it had been me instead of
you. It was like, oh, there itwas for the taking. And I didn't
take it. That experiencethough, of the guys reminding me
about getting drafted softenedthe self blame. It didn't soften
(20:13):
the yearning, but it softenedthe self blame. So my dad dying was
the first shift, if that's theright word. The second one came a
couple of years later in theAmazon jungle.
Oh, were you doing that?
I promised to make thisinteresting. I went to the Amazon
(20:39):
in Ecuador with my husband,with a group of people from an environmental
organization who wanted totake North Americans to the jungle,
to the lungs of the planet,and help them understand what these
indigenous cultures know downto their bones, which is nature is
(21:03):
alive and it needs to berespected and almost worshiped and
protected. And these tribesthat are way, way far out in the
rainforest think of themselvesas the custodians of the rainforest.
(21:24):
And boy, they're working hardas custodians because petroleum industry
is pushing further and furtherinto the jungle.
Yeah. And it's so foreign forus to like. I mean, that just seems
like you go there, it seems soexotic until you realize the power
(21:44):
that I bet that you saw inthose people and the.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
So that's how I got to thejungle. That's how you got there.
That's how I got there. Thedramatic shift happened when I participated
in an ayahuasca ceremony.
That's the brave decision justto begin with. Was that something
(22:07):
you had interested in, youwere interested in or, you know.
It was there we had thatopportunity. And I am a curious person.
It's like, well, I haven'tdone that before. Sure, I'll do it.
It turned out that it wasquite an intense experience. Just
at a body level. I've neverthrown up as hard for as long as
(22:30):
I did on ayahuasca. Manypeople had visions. My husband had
an amazing vision of. He saidthe stars of the northern hemisphere
were embracing the stars ofthe southern hemisphere.
Wow.
So that was deep. The youngpeople who were with us had their
(22:52):
visions and were down in aboutan hour and a half. Fourteen hours
later, I was still face downon a banana leaf.
Wow.
Yes. But my experience, whileit wasn't a vision, was this. Ayahuasca
is also called the vine ofdeath. So here's the second death.
(23:15):
I had the feeling of beingcemented to the ground. And yet my
mind was alive and active anddoing its own thing. I could not
move. My body wasn't likeparalysis. It was just so heavy from
whatever was in those twoplants that mixed together to make
(23:38):
ayahuasca. And I found myselfwondering if that is what it felt
like for my father to havebeen at the end of his life. His
body clearly wasn't doinganything, but he had always been
such a thinker. I wondered if,like, I was in that moment, knowing
(23:58):
that this was a ceremony thatwould end and I'd go back to being
me. My body was completelystill, and my mind was busy noticing
it, thanks to drugs I hadtaken in my earlier years. I was
a kid of the 60s. I knew Iwasn't dying.
(24:21):
Yeah.
But I just wondered, is thiswhat dying would feel like? So the
outcome of that was, I had aconversation at that point with my
husband. We'd been kind of.I'd been hinting, and we'd been skirting
around this issue of mytraveling for a number of years.
(24:43):
I don't rush my husband intoanything. It doesn't work. But we
sat down and I asked him, Isaid this had been something I've
really wanted to do since Iwas 22, and would he be willing to
take a year and take asabbatical with me? And his response
(25:05):
is, no, I want to keepworking. And I said, I can be sort
of sassy and flippant, in caseyou hadn't figured.
I couldn't get that. No, notat all.
And I said, well, how about ifyou keep working and I go travel
the world? And he has a toneof voice that I call the case's closed
(25:32):
voice. And he said, I wouldn'tlike that at all. Now, in decades
younger, I would have tried toconvince him it was a great idea
or called him whatever. I justsat there. I just sat there. And
(25:52):
then he said, but I'd reallylike to make your dream come true.
Oh, wow.
And I said, well, I can livewith that. So believe me, we had
many more discussions and lotsof planning, and ultimately we agreed
that I would travel on my ownfor a year. Now, it didn't mean I
(26:15):
wouldn't see him for a year.What we arranged is I'd go four months
at a time, three times. I'dcome home in between the first and
second and the second andthird segments, A little bit like
being on the quarter system.Okay, no finals. And I would visit
my children, visit an agingmom who had dementia, remind my Husband.
(26:39):
He was happily married andthen go off for another four months.
So that was how it happened.And he came and he visited me wherever
I happened to be for two weeksduring each of those sections of
travel.
So that was like a reasonable deal.
(27:00):
My father dying and theayahuasca created the shift. And
where it took me to was a yearof traveling on my own, really seeing
what was out there and what Icould do as a retired therapist that
could be useful.
So you did some work in some way?
(27:22):
I did work in some way. Butwhat was gorgeous is no appointments,
no office, no sitting in achair, and just being open to opportunities
that presented themselves.Would you like to hear about a couple
of those opportunities?
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Okay. Well, there are threethat come to mind. One was before
(27:43):
I left, a place I had visitedin Guatemala in my 20s, had had a
huge mudslide. This was a lakecalled Lake Atitlan, surrounded by
volcanoes, just gorgeous. Oneof the volcanoes, in a huge rainstorm,
had just collapsed and buriedan entire village.
(28:05):
Wow.
And the survivors were livingin these save the children Red Cross
shelters, basically tarps. AndI had heard that the children were
just traumatized. So thanks toa psychoanalyst here in San Francisco
(28:25):
who had developed workbooksfor children after Hurricane Katrina.
They were sort of like traumareduction workbooks that were filled
out in conversation with aparent or a teacher. I asked him
if I could take this model,translate it into Spanish for these
(28:45):
kids in Guatemala. I didn'ttell him I'd have to learn how to
speak Spanish before I coulddo it, but he said yes. So what I
did during my four monthsthere is I learned to speak Spanish.
I got help to do thistranslation. It had included a coloring
book where the children wouldcolor in drawings of before the disaster.
(29:10):
During the disaster, parentsand children being separated, reunited,
and then building thecommunity back up again. So that
was my project there.
I mean, that's just like a bigproject in itself. I'm thinking,
here you are, you're going ona sabbatical of like travel, you
(29:31):
know, like. But this is likemeaningful, like heart filling, soul
filling work that you'redoing. This is, this is your 22 year
old self doing your PeaceCorps work, right?
It's my 22 year old self Armedwith the skills of my 62 year old
self, able to do the PeaceCorps in a very different way. Different
(29:52):
because I was the boss,because it was one year rather than
two. And I really had a skillset that I just wanted to know how
useful in the Big world iswhat I've been doing for 35 years,
sitting in a chair. And thiswas my first discovery that it could
(30:13):
be really useful.
And, I mean, I would imaginethat, like, that. Well, first of
all, how did you choose whereyou were going? Was it based on the
fact that there was a mudslideand then you chose to go to Guatemala,
or were you just, like, planning?
I wasn't planning. I had beento this lake and adored it. I had
(30:35):
been to the lake as a guest ofa college classmate who had gone
into the Peace Corps, and so Ispent a month living with him and
his girlfriend. And I lovedthis place. I loved the people who
lived there. I loved the lifethat my friend was living on that
lake, speaking Spanish andplaying with kids and whatever. So
(31:00):
it was a blending of who I hadbecome and who I had once been, and.
And it was delicious.
I bet. I. I don't thinkthere's a. I don't think there's
a lot of people that canrelate to something that they were
so wanting to do for so long,but then had the opportunity to also
(31:21):
learn something and dosomething for so long and then blend
them together. It just alwaysfeels like, oh, you know, I was eight,
and I wish I had done this.And then you just never do it, or
you do it, and it's just likea check mark and not a blending of,
like, life experiences withthat. I mean, because that. That
moment was probably so muchricher by doing it in your 60s than
(31:46):
had you gone to the PeaceCorps and, like, done something.
You know, it just feels likethere's so many layers to. To something
like that.
Well, this was. This was awonderful thing. I. I corresponded
with another college friendwho had gone to the Peace Corps in
India, and I told him what Iwas doing, and he wrote back, and
(32:07):
he said, wow, what you aredoing is so much more like the Peace
Corps than that. What? So muchmore like what I thought I would
do in the Peace Corps thanwhat I actually got to do.
Yeah. What do. What did theydo? Like, someone that went to that
space, what would they havedone? Would it just be more like
service work and not so. Sodeeply connected to the community?
(32:30):
Well, it might be teachingEnglish, which seems like it's helpful
all over the world, since, forthe time being, English is an international
language. Some of them wereput in communities where they were
being asked to offer theirexpertise to people who might not
(32:51):
be using the best farmingtechniques or whatever, but they
were experts in doing it theirway. And these 22 year old consultants
didn't know what the heck theywere doing, which is a horrible feeling.
Yeah, I think that's what mostcollege graduates feel like when
they go into the workforce.They're like, well, I learned all
this stuff in this book. Guesswhat? Life is not like that.
(33:14):
Imagine what it's like thefirst six months you are called a
therapist and you sit downwith real people who really need
something from you.
I think that's, yeah, that's amuch deeper connection that is required.
But I, I mean, I just think oflike I went to business school the
first time and I just think ofthese, like my friends that did like
(33:36):
accounting or something, andyou learn what's in the textbook
for accounting and then youget into a real accounting job and
you're like, that's not,that's not what we do. Like, that's
just like what you think wedo. But that's not actually how the
real world works. But yeah, Iwould imagine being a therapist is
much more daunting at first.
Yes.
Does it ever not get dauntingor does, does it ever feel comfortable?
(33:58):
You know what I think is ittakes about seven years to get comfortable
in your skin. And I've heardteachers say it's about seven years
before you become a reallygood teacher.
That makes sense. Well, Imean, I think that's awesome that
you did the, I mean, you saidthere are multiple things, but the
Guatemala thing is just, Ithink about that 22 year old, had
(34:20):
you made that decision to turnin your application, get accepted
and go, all the other thingsthat wouldn't have happened in your
life because of going to that.So it's like almost, you know, like
we could play that game.
Yes, I'd love, I'd love toplay that game. But they only give
you one life.
I know, but you think aboutthat. But. And the reason I say that
(34:41):
is because the route you didtake perhaps made this, this part
of the journey that muchricher, that much more beautiful
or as you said, delicious. Doyou think that, do you think that's
true?
I know it was delicious. Ithink it was also healing. You know,
it didn't make me tall andblonde in a ballerina, but it made
(35:04):
me feel much more kindlytoward myself and the path I'd taken
in my life.
How so?
If I had been the, if I had22, had known what I know as a 60
year old, I jolly well wouldhave mailed in that application.
Well, yeah, okay. And thefriends I knew who went to the Peace
(35:26):
Corps came back with A muchmore worldly sense, with a much bigger
sense of the world, with morecourage and more confidence, and
I could have used that. So Istayed a late bloomer, maybe longer
(35:46):
than I would have liked. Butthe point is, that shift I got there,
I got to where I wanted to be.And part of what made it exciting
at 60 was that I thought itwas too late. I thought I had permanently
forfeited this opportunity.How many 60 year olds go traveling
(36:07):
around the world by themselves?
How many go to the jungle anddo an ayahuasca thing?
We got brought there by verycaring. We had a guide. Once I got
on the plane, I had nothingexcept a destination to start, you
know, Good.
No, I mean, I think there'ssomething to be said about making
(36:30):
those choices though, too,because you very well could have
just kept going with, youknow, this checklist kind of journey
that you were on. Not to saythat you didn't enjoy it exactly.
You know, like, you could havejust listened to your husband when
he had his case closed voice,you know, like, and. Or you could
(36:50):
have been sassy instead ofbeing quiet, because I bet that quiet
part made him think, wait asecond, she, like, really needs this.
It certainly gave him space to think.
Yeah.
You know? Yep.
Instead of like back andforth, you know, I think that. I
think that's beautiful thatyou did that. I love that. What,
what other experience you saidyou had?
3, but I do have 3. Well, thenext one was in Java. I was in Java
(37:18):
just for a few days. This wasone of the places where my husband
met me. And it was our. We'dbeen there for two or three days.
It was our last night beforewe were going to fly to Bali and
we were in an earthquake thatlasted for 59 seconds. I know you
don't live on the West coast,but 59 seconds is a very long time
(37:44):
to have shaking get strongerand stronger and stronger, to not
be quite sure what thebuilding you're in is made out of,
and to think there's a realgood chance you're going to die.
Because we'd only been there acouple of days. I'm thinking during
these 59 seconds, boy, that'slasting a long time. Boy, that's
lasting a long time. Oh, myGod, I think I'm going to die. And
(38:07):
where the blank am I? So 6,000people died. We were quite close
to the epicenter. I got anemail from my daughter saying, mom,
are you okay? And I said, yes,a lot of people died, but I'm okay.
(38:28):
And she said, well, good. Iknow you were looking for a service
project.
She knew you.
Exactly. So I ended up joininga Red Cross disaster mental health
group and putting togetheranother work group book and getting
another artist to make acoloring book.
(38:49):
Right place, right time. Imean, unfortunate time, but exactly,
exactly. It's. I mean, I feellike the universe was like serving
this experience to you on likea silver platter because it realized
how long you had been yearningfor that kind of experience.
Yes.
Yeah. How was that?
(39:11):
Well, when I safely got hometo San Francisco, I thought, oh,
here I am on the San Andreasfault. Safe, safe at last.
Because it was familiar,right? Like you had an earthquake
there. At least, you know,like where you are, where the F you
are.
Right, exactly.
Yeah. No, that's. I mean,it's, it's just, I don't know, I'm
(39:32):
still like. And maybe I'm inmy 40s now, so maybe in my 60s, I'm
going to choose to dosomething that I chose not to do
in my 20s because of your story.
That would be wonderful.
Or maybe I'll do it in my 40s.
How about right now?
Exactly. Oh, bye.
What's in your back pocket?So. Well, yes, in telling the story
(39:54):
in my book, I have severalgoals. And I didn't start out with
those goals. They kind of cameout of the writing. And one is that
being over 50 or 60 doesn'tmean the game is over. It means you
need to use your imaginationto have a little bit of audacity
(40:18):
or a lot and a lot.
You find it's harder to beaudacious as you get older or easier.
Easier because you don't care.
Way easier. I did something inmy 50s that my daughter thought was
just ridiculous. Some bag Iwas carrying to put post its in so
(40:39):
that I didn't forget things.And she said, you can't do that.
And I said, hey, I'm 60, I cando whatever I please. So no, I think
it's a lot easier in anenvironment of safety if you're in
a war zone. No way. You know,but under happy and fortunate circumstances,
(41:00):
you bet.
Thinking before we go intoyour book, be thinking back to when
your father died and you weretalking about like, how you realize,
like, oh, like this couldhappen to me too, like I could die.
Did he. Did you feel or didyou know if he had regrets when he
died? Did he have things thathe just didn't achieve or, or do
(41:21):
because life that like kind ofsignaled that maybe you should start
to do those things.
He wasn't A big talker. But Iknow him well enough that I think
he was a little sorry hehadn't won a Nobel Prize.
Small goal.
So yes.
(41:43):
What did he do?
He was a biochemist and aophthalmologist and an eye surgeon.
That makes more sense.
And he did some veryimpressive things. Didn't get a Nobel
Prize. And one of the realgems of that time traveling. There
was a part of me that thought,hey, if you're a good daughter, you
(42:06):
go get a Nobel Prize and thenyou can go out and play. I discovered
there's so many small ways asa traveler that you can contribute
that they don't have to beNobel Prize worthy, that you can
be helpful in small ways andin very non professional settings.
So I wanted to tell you thethird situation where I got to use
(42:30):
what I had learned as atherapist. So I'm in Bali on my own,
snorkeling in the ocean. Thereis a woman, an English speaking woman
who's out there in the watertoo. And everyone had been curious
about her because a youngBalinese man, this woman was probably
in her 50s, this very young,very gorgeous Balinese man would
(42:53):
drive his motorcycle up to hercottage each evening. And it was
like, hey, what's going on? Sowe're standing waist deep in this
water, trying not to step oncoral, and she tells me her story.
And her story was of she hadbeen involved romantically with this
(43:14):
young man and she discoveredthat he had had a baby with a young
Balinese woman. And she wasdevastated and she was furious and
she really didn't know what todo with her wrath. And I thought
about a couple I had known incollege and I asked if I could tell
(43:34):
her a story. And the story wasof a minister and his wife and he
had an affair and the womangot pregnant and he had to come and
inform his wife. These weretwo of the most godlike people I
(43:57):
have ever met. And she said,if that's your child, then they are
family. And to this day, themother and her child are part of
Thanksgivings and Christmasand they have half brothers and sisters.
(44:18):
And that child has never feltanything except loved and included.
So I tell this story and hereyes get big and she says, boy, I'd
like to do something likethat. And I said, well, you're still
really angry. You can't hurrythese things. And she said, no, I've
(44:40):
been angry a really long time.Did I tell you they named the baby
after me? The baby has my name.
Oh my.
She said, this is a remarkableYoung man, he has enough room in
his heart to love many people.Then she went off towards her coral
reef and I went off towardmine. Never know what she did with
(45:02):
that story. And it's not mybusiness. You know, a therapist,
you interact, you share whatyou have and what comes of it. Not
your business. So anyway, thatwas, I love that image that I was
able to be useful with therapyskills. In the sea. In the sea.
(45:24):
In a beautiful spot. Yeah. No,I think it also just tells me the
power of story. Whether shedid the exact same thing, whether
it made her think differently.I mean, it obviously affected her
in some way of hearing thatstory. And the power that you have
to be able to recall thatstory or to bring that story, to
connect those particularthings is so special. But I mean,
(45:47):
I love that.
And you've made story what youdo for your listeners and for your
guests.
Yeah, I think it's important.And I think of the younger version
of myself and I think of whenI have these conversations, what
did he need to hear because heneeded so much that he didn't get?
(46:08):
Because my dad was in hismid-30s, he was suddenly as an only
parent of, you know, a childhe was going to see every holiday,
you know, kind of thing. Andhe wasn't prepared. He didn't know
how to grieve. His mom didn'tknow how to grieve because she, you
know, she was a child of the30s and you know, that just isn't
what she did. You know, theydidn't learn that stuff. And I think
(46:30):
about that 8 year old or 10year old version of me or the 15
year old version of me. Had Iheard a conversation about a 40 year
old guy who had his mom diedwhen he was a kid and these are all
the things that he was able toaccomplish. Like what if I had heard
that as a younger kid, Would Ihave felt more confident in certain
(46:50):
things? Would I have takenmore risks? Would I have dropped
the fear of abandonment? What,you know, like all those things.
And so when I have theseconversations, yes, it's about like
talking about real things andreal emotions and that. And that's
why like I ask you, like, didyou feel jealous, you know, of those
moments or did, you know,whatever these things are? Because
(47:11):
I think I did like I would goto people's houses and I see their,
their mom and their dadinteracting. My parents were divorced,
so first of all I had that,but then I didn't have a mom. So
I would be watching thesepeople interact with their mom and
Be like jealous, you know. Andso having these emotions is important
(47:31):
and having these conversationsis important and I love that you're
able to do it.
Well, I'll tell you whatyou're bringing to mind for me is
that for all of us, whetherwe're traumatized in specific ways
or not, we still take ourthree year olds inside us. And in
certain circumstances, scarytimes, very Sad times, that 3 year
(47:55):
old or 8 year old or whateverpops up, whereas most of the time
it's just kind of quiet. Myfears of, well, they were fears of
being alone and of alone beinga dangerous situation. So for me,
traveling alone and making itwork was really. It's like having
(48:20):
a conversation with that threeyear old saying the monster in the
closet that you've been afraidof all that time isn't all that scary.
You know, that's funny thatyou say it in that way is because
that's how I feel about likethings that I worry about in my head.
They're so scary. And then assoon as I say them out loud, I'm
like, what? That's likenothing. Like. Or I write it down
(48:43):
and I'm like, why was I. Thissounds like nothing. So it's kind
of in the same way of likewhere people bottle things up and
they don't let it out. And assoon as they let it out it's like,
oh, and it's really not thatbad. I can do something with this
and move forward with it. Soyes, I love that connection. What
made you start writing yourbook though? Like, why write a book?
(49:06):
I wrote a book because it wasthe second most exciting thing I
had done in my life. Maybethree. Going to summer camp, leaving
my parents for the very firsttime and going away to where kids
all got to sleep in a cabintogether. And you learn how to swim
and paddle a canoe and thenyou go off for five days on a camping
(49:30):
trip. That was beautiful.Having babies was fabulous. And this
trip was up there as part ofthe top three most exciting. Thanks.
Well, it's because you wereconnecting your 22 year old self
too with the rest of yourlife. I love that.
Yep. I also had the goodfortune that a woman who my husband
(49:54):
knew, who was a poet, when sheheard about the trip, she said, take
a journal and journal about itand pay attention to details, write
down details. So in a way, Icame home with material for a book,
but it was another 15 yearsbefore I put it between covers.
(50:17):
Yeah. What was that journeylike? Was it overwhelming? Was it
fun? Was it all the Things.
What I needed in order tofinish it was for my husband and
me to grow more. The bookneeded a really happy ending, and
we kept sliding back into ourold habit of him working too much
(50:40):
and my being lonely and biggerand whatever, which wasn't a very
good ending to the book. Soover. I spent two years talking weekly
with a therapist who was alsodevoted Buddhist. And I went to her
because more about theBuddhism than about the therapy.
(51:04):
And what I think I learned inthose two years is that a good enough
marriage is a good marriage.So I kind of made my piece that I
had chosen not just wellenough, but I'd chosen well. And,
you know, when you starttreating your partner like you chose
them wisely, it's amazing howmuch more they want to show up for
(51:26):
dinner, and then you want totreat them even more nicely because
they showed up for dinner. Sothat. That spiral through.
That's. That's a powerfulthought. That's really hard to, like,
digest in one little. Youknow, how we were talking about,
like, the weirdest littlepieces of people's stories. Stick
(51:47):
with you. That one rightthere, like, shine in my face. I
think that's true of, like,friendships, too. I think that's
true of, like, any kind ofrelationship as well. Would you agree?
Yes.
That you choose, like, I thinkfor many of us, and I don't know
why, but we absorb, like, whata marriage should be or what a friendship
(52:09):
should be, and then we, like,have these standards that are never
met, and then we're mad aboutit, and then all, you know, then
you spiral in that way. But,yeah, I love that. That nugget that
you just dropped on us for usto think about.
But what was the key thatopened the door was really coming
to believe that a good enoughmarriage is a good marriage. Because
(52:32):
what it did is it erased mysense of what an idiot I was. That's
the same as the not sending inthat application to the Peace Corps.
What an idiot I was to choosethis person. Well, even if you never
say it out loud, your tone ofvoice communicates it. And, you know,
(52:53):
the part that took it one stepfurther was actually Covid.
Because you were forced to betogether so much.
Exactly. And I kept it asecret for a long time because how
can you say good things cameout of pandemic that slaughtered
(53:13):
millions of people? But ourgovernor, Gavin Newsom, required
people to work from home. Andmy husband had just finished telling
me, in that case, his closedvoice, that there was no way he could
do psychoanalysis remotely.And no Way Jose. Two days later,
(53:34):
he had to. Well, first of all,it worked out fine professionally.
There are patients who stillprefer to have treatment by zoom.
But he discovered that helived in a beautiful home, and he
had a really nice wife, andshe cooked very good dinners, and
we have dinner together everynight. And in my book, when I'm acknowledging.
(53:58):
Thank you to. I have a thankyou to Governor.
Gavin Newsom for his lockdown.
Yes.
Which meanwhile, in Florida,we were locked down for, like, eight
minutes, I think, maybe.
Yep.
Yeah. No, I, I mean, I thinkthat's important. I think that's
a good message for people tounderstand, too. And I mean, you
(54:20):
have to come to it when you'reready to come to it. Had you had
that conversation maybe 10years earlier, it might not have
resonated in the same way. So,I mean, I think our experiences fill
that.
You're really wise in sayingthat. And I think one of the things
that my story does is it letspeople who are younger know that
(54:42):
there's no statute oflimitation on growing and on growing
as partners. And I learned itby doing it. But it feels very good
to share that news withyounger people.
Well, and I think it's, Ithink another part of your story
is the sabbatical that youchose to take when people maybe wouldn't
(55:05):
do it in the way that you didit, or like, maybe traditionally
you didn't see people do that.They retired and they went on a retiring
trip. You know, like it's aretirement trip of some sort, but
not in the way that you didit. You did it in a service. You
did it in a service one toyourself and what you needed, but
you did an in service of allthe people that you encountered in
(55:25):
that space. And I think thatis a really nice message. I think
we probably, like what youthought about when your father passed
is like, oh, wait, like, Ineed to do some stuff before this
is over kind of thing.
Yes.
And we kind of look at like,oh, well, we're old now. We can't
do anything. It's not true.It's just, you know, kind of a. I
don't know how to say thatwithout sounding insulting.
(55:48):
Well, it's pretty daring for avery obedient young person, don't
you think?
I guess so. Yes. I'm verysharing. No, I, I, I, I love your
story. I think it's, I thinkit's empowering. I think it's empowering
for anyone at any age becausethey're, I mean, I think every human
probably has some moment thatthey've placed in their back pocket
(56:11):
of like, why didn't I do that?You know, why? Or why did I do that?
I think that might happen too,you know, and I think we can. We
can make amends with ourselvesin a way. I don't know if we want
to call it amends, but I thinkwe could in the way that you did.
You know, I think that's sowonderful. I'm wondering if. If Leah,
(56:32):
this version of you could goback to the Leah right after your
father died. Is there anythingthat this version of you would want
to tell her because you hadn'tgone on all those adventures?
Frankly, if you don't mind,I'd like to take her all the way
back to that 22 year old. Icould do that because that's the
(56:52):
conversation that I've thoughtof lots of times.
Yeah. What would you tell her?
You do not have to be so good.You can put down your history book
and just look around. Historyis actually happening right now.
There are more, but I'm notsure it's appropriate to share them.
(57:15):
Would you tell her to turn inthat application?
Oh, yes.
Would you?
And yes. And you know what Itell her? You are going to be scared
beyond any kind of terroryou've ever felt. And it's going
to be all right. It's just a feeling.
You know what? Every, almostevery person that I ask a very similar
(57:38):
question to, they tell thatyounger person that it's going to
be okay. And so it's reallyinteresting that even though yours
is like a different type ofstory that maybe I think of differently
because it's not similar to myown experience, same thing. We would
tell this younger version ofourselves that like all the. That
we were worried about. It'sgonna be okay, you know, like, we're
(58:02):
gonna be okay. Yes, we'regonna make it through. Because that's
what the human, human spiritdoes. Like you, you make it through.
Hopefully in most cases. In alot of cases.
Right?
Yes. First, can you tell usthe name of your book?
Yes. The book is called MyMarriage A Memoir of Solo Travel
(58:24):
and Lasting Love.
Excellent. And where can theyget this book? Everywhere that books
are sold.
Yes. And it's on order now.And on January 7th, it's going to
be on the shelves andavailable everywhere books are sold.
(58:44):
Awesome. Well, by the timethis comes out, this is going to
come out in early January. Soas you're listening to this, make
sure you check the links inthe show notes so that you can access
that. Also, if People want toget in your circle or connect with
you or tell you their story orwhatever. Is that something you're
into? And how could they do that?
Absolutely. Well, let me backup a moment. There are several books
(59:05):
called Marriage Sabbatical byseveral authors. So you need to sort
through the others. If youwant mine, we will give you the link.
There you go. And my websiteis mymarriagesabbatical.com there
are photos from my trip,stories from the trip, and an opportunity.
(59:25):
Actually there's a wholesection on negotiating important
issues with your partner.
Oh, that's awesome. That's helpful.
Yep. So yes, I would love tohear from your viewers.
Are there contact form andstuff on there that they can reach
out to you?
All the things we need are onthere. Yes. And I'd love to hear
from people.
(59:47):
Well, I would like to thankyou for sharing your story in this
way and answering my weirdquestions or whatever came up. I
really appreciate you wantingto just be a part of this healing
journey for me of the LifeShift podcast.
Thank you so much.
And if you are listening,thank you for listening. I love it
if you stick around. If youlike the show ratings reviews on
(01:00:09):
Apple podcasts. That's sohelpful. But otherwise I'm going
to say goodbye. I'm going tosay goodbye to Leah and I will be
back next week with a brandnew episode of the Life Shift podcast.
Thanks again, Leah.
Foreign.
(01:00:29):
For more information pleasevisit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.
What it triggered and what itshifted was, when it's my turn to
die, what am I really going toregret not having done? And boom,
there was the dream. It hadbeen in my back pocket for the better
part of 40 years. Like it wasthere, but that wasn't where my focus
(00:24):
was. Suddenly it slipped outof my pocket and it was right in
my face.
Today's episode is with LeahFisher and we had such a great time
in this. In fact, after thefact, she said that she really enjoyed
our conversation and at firstshe had to learn the dance, but once
she learned the dance of ourconversation, she had a really great
(00:44):
time. So I hope that you canhear that within this episode. I
think you'll be able to. ButLeah is a retired psychotherapist
who really kept dreaming on adream that she put in her back pocket
for so many years. So she tookthis dream beyond the conventional
way that I think so many of uswould do. And she took a life changing
(01:06):
solo marriage sabbatical inher 60s. Her journey is really this,
I don't know, testament to thepower of being bold and audacious
and having the courage topursue these long held dreams no
matter where you are in yourlife. In this episode, she shares
this story of embracing theunknown. From her, dare I say, transformative
(01:31):
experiences in the Amazonjungle to these heartfelt encounters
around the world during hersabbatical. This really is just an
episode about self discoveryand the healing power of storytelling
and redefining what it meansto live a fulfilling life. So I hope
you enjoy this conversationwith Leah Fisher. Without further
(01:51):
ado, here is thatconversation. I'm Matt Gilhooly and
this is the Life Shift candidconversations about the pivotal moments
that have changed livesforever. Hello, my friends. Welcome
(02:13):
to the Life Shift podcast. Iam here with Leah. Hello, Leah.
Hi.
Thank you for joining. Thankyou for wanting to be a part of the
Life Shift podcast.
First of all, I am indeedhappy to participate.
Well, we were talking a littlebit before recording and I really
hope that this show issomething that people look at as
(02:34):
like these conversations thatthey wish people were having. These
like real conversations withreal questions that maybe we shy
away from asking or sharingthese particular stories. So it's
just been such a journey.You're. I think I've talked to like
165 people now in this littlejourney that started out as a school
(02:54):
assignment during thePandemic. I got a second master's
degree and I took a podcastingclass and I had to start. Well, I
Didn't have to start apodcast. I just had to do two episodes.
And I did. And the Life Shiftpodcast was born in that class. And
the show really stayed. Stemsfrom my own personal experience.
When I was 8, my mom waskilled in a motorcycle accident.
(03:16):
And that day, my dad. I wasvisiting my dad, who my parents lived.
My dad lived in Georgia, mymom lived in Massachusetts. And on
that day, I walked into mydad's office, and he sat me down
and he had to tell me that mymom had died in the accident. And
at that moment in time,everything that was ever going to
exist in my life changed,right? I lived with my mom full time.
(03:39):
I was just visiting my dad,who lived in a different state. So
everything my school changed,my. My parent essentially changed.
The way that I was growing upwas going to change. And this was
late 80s, early 90s, and atthat time, people weren't really
talking about therapy or griefor those kind of things. And especially
for a kid, or at least in the.In the world that I lived in, people
(04:01):
weren't doing that. And sogrowing up, I just felt, do other
people have these, like, linein the sand moments in which life
is just so different afterthat moment? And so I've had this
opportunity to talk to so manypeople about many, many life shifts
and my naivety or my naiveteat the beginning that maybe we only
have one big life shift. It'snot true. We have a lot of them,
(04:23):
and we have a lot of differentshifts in our lives that have brought
us here. And so I'm just sohonored that people like yourself
and, you know, basicallystrangers across the world, I've
had this opportunity to learnand grow and heal from. So that's
a little bit about where theshow comes from for anyone that's
listening for the first time.And. And for you, Leah, So thank
(04:43):
you for being on this journey.
It's quite a painful way todiscover an incredible gift that
you can share with people.
You know, it is. And, youknow, this was 35 years ago or so,
and I look back at it now andlook at all the things that I have
done and learned because ofsuch a tragic moment in my life.
(05:07):
And it's so weird to look backwith, like, a gratefulness of the
things that have happenedbecause of it. Not grateful for the
moment, but grateful for thejourney that I went on afterwards.
And I think that takes a lotto be able to reflect on that. And,
like, it took me a long timeto get here, but, you know, like,
it takes a lot to Be able tolook back and go, well, here are
(05:29):
the good things that came fromsuch a tragic experience. And I'm
sure you probably haveexperienced things like that in your
life where you're like, thatreally sucked. But look what I've
done with it. Is that true?
Yes, at the best of times.
At the best of times? Well,yes. Fair. Well, I think, you know,
it's just a wonderfulopportunity. And here's a little
(05:50):
disclosure for you. And Idon't know if you know this, most
of my listeners know this, butI don't do a lot of research about
my guests. All I know is theintake. I know you have a book. We're
going to talk a little bitabout your book, but I didn't read
any of it because I truly wantthese conversations to unfold in
the way that I think theuniverse wanted them to. And I want
to discover those things forthe first time when you tell them.
(06:11):
That's great, Matt. I happento be someone who loves surprises,
so let's surprise each other.
I'm here for it. So before weget into your detailed story, maybe
you can tell us a little bitabout who you are in today's world.
Okay. Who I am today is aretired psychotherapist who sat in
(06:33):
a chair having intimate andrather loving conversations with
a lot of people, withindividuals and with couples for
about 35 years.
Wow.
Yes. And I closed down mypractice in order to take the one
year solo sabbatical, which iswhat my book is about. And it was
(06:56):
not only a sabbatical from mycareer, it was a sabbatical for my
husband. Not because I had adesire or a reason to be away from
him for a year, but because Iwanted something so much. And he
didn't share that desire, atleast not at that time that the two
(07:21):
of us talked until we agreedthat he would do what he wanted and
I would do what I wanted, andwe'd visit back and forth. And so
that was the year of exploringthe world on my own.
That is probably somethingthat a lot of people probably wish
they could. You also just kindof gave away the secret right here
(07:41):
at the beginning, which is.Which is, you know, it just happens
that way. But I love that.First of all, 35 years of doing what
you did, how does that. Beforewe get into your story, how does
that affect you as a human andhow, like, do you absorb those things?
Do you bring them home withyou? Did you find a way to leave
(08:03):
them there? Like, I canimagine the things that you heard
and. And how you had toprocess, like, how do you as a human
function through 35 years of that?
That's a great question, and alot of people ask me. And the bottom
line is that I'm a caring anda compassionate person, but my role
in the therapeuticrelationship is certainly a heart
(08:27):
connection. But it's alsohelping to figure something out,
helping patients to see whatthey have seen and experienced and
also what options they mightnot have thought of, to have thoughts
about where something camefrom. But perhaps there's something
additional. And so it's acombination of loving and problem
(08:50):
solving, and I'm able to doboth in the session. I guess I don't
carry it home and suffer itbecause I have a task. And I think
many therapists, if theythought hard about it, would. Would
realize that it's not justpulling at your heartstrings. You
(09:12):
care, you feel compassionate.And I have a job to do, which is
to help them explore theexperiences that have had such an
impact on their lives.
And that makes sense, I think.You know, I very loosely relate it
to some of the conversationsthat I have on this podcast in which
(09:34):
I am holding a space. I'm nottrying to solve anything. I'm just
holding a space for a deeplypersonal story, whether that's about
a death or a suicide or like adiagnosis or whatever it is. And
I'm holding this space. And I,through my journey in this podcast,
have had to find ways where Idon't take that out of the conversation
(09:55):
as well. And. And, you know,because having some empathy, you
kind of naturally absorb someof it, and you have to find a way
to protect your own self, too.So that's super curious of 35 years
of it. If you didn't have apractice, you'd probably be really,
really full of a lot of things.
I guess it's funny becausewithout my being aware of it, it
(10:20):
shows. If I'm on an airplanetalking to a stranger in the next
seat, they'll ask me if I'm ateacher or a therapist, and it's
like, whatever. Yes. And whatmade you think of it? So, you know,
you think like it, you talklike it. So anyway, and you listen
sometimes, mostly.
(10:43):
So I think that's important. Ithink. I think it's great. And thank
you for the work that you havedone for that many years, for all
the people out there thatneeded it, because I think that's
such a big job and such a hardjob. And so just thank you before
we jump into your story. It'sso impactful and really honestly,
that's what what helped mewhat I say. And people yell at me
(11:06):
for saying this, but close thedoor on grief about my mom. I finally,
in my early 30s, found atherapist that was the right fit.
Took like 5 or 6 to find theright person that kind of jived with
me. And she said some just asentence to me that like snapped
everything and was like, she'slike, you realize that every decision
(11:26):
that you've made since yourmom died was out of fear as that
8 year old. And I was like,you know, like my whole world like
exploded at that moment. Butit was like people like yourself
in these roles can say like wesaid earlier, one sentence that just
could have heard it a thousandtimes before that, but at that moment
was said the right way. Soagain, thank you for your service.
(11:48):
So you gave us a little bit ofa sneak peek of what your kind of
life, shifting year, if youwill. But maybe you can even break
it down a little bit more ofpaint the picture of what your life
was like leading up to whenyou decided to make this moment.
And then maybe if you canidentify like the specific piece
that you feel reallysignificantly shifted things from
the old Leah to the new Leah.
(12:10):
Well, I'd like to flash allthe way back to being 22 because
I think that's where this wasborn. So I was a very well behaved,
obedient, respecting authorityyoung person, did what was expected
and as you can guess, a bit ofa late bloomer. When I graduated
(12:31):
from college, I really wantedto join the Peace Corps. This was
in the late 60s and the peaceCorps was just being birthed and
it was a very exciting thingto do. It was certainly not the expected
next step after college. Andso I ended up going to graduate school
(12:53):
and forever after regrettedhaving given up this chance to live
in other cultures and giveback and find ways to give back.
So that wish you just like planted.
A seed way back when, you know.
(13:14):
It was a squanderedopportunity. I didn't quite have
the sense of ownership of myown self to feel like I could decide
what I really wanted to do next.
Were you just following a path?
Oh yeah, okay.
Because I talk about that too.Like, and I think mine is trauma
informed, like perfectionist.Like I just did whatever society
(13:36):
told me was next. Like I hadto do well and then go to college
and then get a good job. Youknow, like it was like society's
checklist for me is what Icall it. Were you doing something
similar?
I was love informed, which isto say that I adored my father in
particular, and I did what hethought was a good idea so that you.
(13:57):
Could win his love or keep his love.
You know, that was anexpectation in the family. Let dad
be the top dog. He's a reallysmart guy. He knows just what to
do. And don't you dare have adifferent opinion. And I was very
obedient.
Makes sense. I, I think we're,you know, that's how we grow up.
And we're. I did the samething. I was like. But mine was out
(14:19):
of abandoned fear ofabandonment because I was like, if
I, if my dad doesn't love whatI just did, then he's also gonna
leave because my mom left, you know?
Yeah.
So that's why I always askthat question, because I'm like,
how do we get on this pathwhere we just follow things when
your dream was probably sohuge to go into the, and the Peace
Corps, and then you're justlike, this is the expected route.
(14:42):
I should go that way.
Yep. Well, a lot of mistakesfrom when I was younger, I've been
able to just lay to rest thatone would go away. I was just, I
was mad at myself. It's likeyou wanted this so much. How was
it you were able to talkyourself out of it?
Could you not do itafterwards? Like, was it that one
(15:03):
and only chance? And then itwas like, never an opportunity for
you?
Not until I was 60.
Okay.
Okay. I promise I won't gettoo far ahead of myself. Okay. I
went to graduate school. Iended up becoming a therapist. There
was, you know, it was sociallyuseful. But that bit of following
(15:26):
my bliss never got to happen.And so pretty soon there's dating,
falling in love, gettingmarried, a mortgage, two children
save for college tuition. Andthen there was a moment. Both kids
had graduated from college.They were both self supporting. I'd
been married for 30 years. Itwas a nice, sturdy marriage. Blissful
(15:51):
marriages aren't as many aspeople might pretend or wish for.
But a good, solid, sturdymarriage, that's a long time. And
it is a long time. And thensomething happened that brought that
dream back to life.
Well, first of all, I mean, 30years, I, I'm. I appreciate you saying
(16:12):
that. A blissful marriage islike probably not the reality for
most people. I mean, we'rehumans, right? Like you have to exist
with another human that forthat long. And I'm also imperfect
and too imper. You know, same.
So we've got to stop talkingin that case.
Listen, I thought I wanted tobe perfect for so many years. And
(16:33):
it just hurt me more than ithelped me. So, you know, I think
that I finally learned that I.That like an A plus is not always
attainable. And that's okay.
Yep.
You know, so.
Yep.
You give your marriage like aB plus? Is that what we're saying
for those 30 years?
I'm not going to grade it. Youdo what you want.
(16:55):
So what happened to kind ofshift you back into that bliss seeking?
Well, two things happened. Andthe first and probably the most important
one, my father died. This muchrevered, super smart father died.
(17:16):
And it dawned on me that if myfather could die, I guess I would
too. There's a Buddhistteacher who says, we all know we're
going to die. We just don'tbelieve it. I started to believe
it.
Really?
Yeah.
Because this wasn't the firstperson that had died in your circle.
(17:37):
Right.
It was the first daddy who had died.
Yeah.
And it really packed a punch.So what it triggered and what it
shifted was, when it's my turnto die, what am I really gonna regret
not having done? And boom,there was the dream. It had been
(18:01):
in my back pocket for thebetter part of 40 years. Like, it
was there, but that wasn'twhere my focus was. Suddenly it slipped
out of my pocket and it wasright in my face.
And that's dangerous. It canbe dangerous. Right. Because it makes
you rethink everything. Doesit. Does it go like. Does it make
(18:22):
you have regrets? Or does it.I would imagine it would.
That had been happening allalong. If I would bump into people
talking about the Peace Corps,my gut would clench with. I would
say remorse, but it was alsoshame, you know, what an idiot you
were. And look at theexperience they had. This is sort
(18:46):
of random, but I went with myhusband back to his college reunion,
and we were surrounded by abunch of his classmates, and they
were talking about the PeaceCorps. And I oozled up to them and
said, you know, I applied. Ifilled out that application to go
(19:07):
to the Peace Corps, but Ididn't get in. And they said, why
didn't you get in? And I saidI was scared to mail in the application.
And they said, well, you know,we guys had a good incentive to hand
in ours. The alternative wasgoing to Vietnam. And it was like,
(19:28):
oh, my God. Most all of thepeople that I envied who'd gone to
the Peace Corps had been guysgraduating seniors. And a lot of
them did social serviceexemptions. Peace Corps was one.
That's smart. It'sinteresting, though, because then
(19:48):
you Also get that. Like, wasthere jealousy that came with that
too? I know you said shame andthose kind of things, but did you
have any jealousy?
More yearning? It wasn't like,I wish it had been me instead of
you. It was like, oh, there itwas for the taking. And I didn't
take it. That experiencethough, of the guys reminding me
about getting drafted softenedthe self blame. It didn't soften
(20:13):
the yearning, but it softenedthe self blame. So my dad dying was
the first shift, if that's theright word. The second one came a
couple of years later in theAmazon jungle.
Oh, were you doing that?
I promised to make thisinteresting. I went to the Amazon
(20:39):
in Ecuador with my husband,with a group of people from an environmental
organization who wanted totake North Americans to the jungle,
to the lungs of the planet,and help them understand what these
indigenous cultures know downto their bones, which is nature is
(21:03):
alive and it needs to berespected and almost worshiped and
protected. And these tribesthat are way, way far out in the
rainforest think of themselvesas the custodians of the rainforest.
(21:24):
And boy, they're working hardas custodians because petroleum industry
is pushing further and furtherinto the jungle.
Yeah. And it's so foreign forus to like. I mean, that just seems
like you go there, it seems soexotic until you realize the power
(21:44):
that I bet that you saw inthose people and the.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
So that's how I got to thejungle. That's how you got there.
That's how I got there. Thedramatic shift happened when I participated
in an ayahuasca ceremony.
That's the brave decision justto begin with. Was that something
(22:07):
you had interested in, youwere interested in or, you know.
It was there we had thatopportunity. And I am a curious person.
It's like, well, I haven'tdone that before. Sure, I'll do it.
It turned out that it wasquite an intense experience. Just
at a body level. I've neverthrown up as hard for as long as
(22:30):
I did on ayahuasca. Manypeople had visions. My husband had
an amazing vision of. He saidthe stars of the northern hemisphere
were embracing the stars ofthe southern hemisphere.
Wow.
So that was deep. The youngpeople who were with us had their
(22:52):
visions and were down in aboutan hour and a half. Fourteen hours
later, I was still face downon a banana leaf.
Wow.
Yes. But my experience, whileit wasn't a vision, was this. Ayahuasca
is also called the vine ofdeath. So here's the second death.
(23:15):
I had the feeling of beingcemented to the ground. And yet my
mind was alive and active anddoing its own thing. I could not
move. My body wasn't likeparalysis. It was just so heavy from
whatever was in those twoplants that mixed together to make
(23:38):
ayahuasca. And I found myselfwondering if that is what it felt
like for my father to havebeen at the end of his life. His
body clearly wasn't doinganything, but he had always been
such a thinker. I wondered if,like, I was in that moment, knowing
(23:58):
that this was a ceremony thatwould end and I'd go back to being
me. My body was completelystill, and my mind was busy noticing
it, thanks to drugs I hadtaken in my earlier years. I was
a kid of the 60s. I knew Iwasn't dying.
(24:21):
Yeah.
But I just wondered, is thiswhat dying would feel like? So the
outcome of that was, I had aconversation at that point with my
husband. We'd been kind of.I'd been hinting, and we'd been skirting
around this issue of mytraveling for a number of years.
(24:43):
I don't rush my husband intoanything. It doesn't work. But we
sat down and I asked him, Isaid this had been something I've
really wanted to do since Iwas 22, and would he be willing to
take a year and take asabbatical with me? And his response
(25:05):
is, no, I want to keepworking. And I said, I can be sort
of sassy and flippant, in caseyou hadn't figured.
I couldn't get that. No, notat all.
And I said, well, how about ifyou keep working and I go travel
the world? And he has a toneof voice that I call the case's closed
(25:32):
voice. And he said, I wouldn'tlike that at all. Now, in decades
younger, I would have tried toconvince him it was a great idea
or called him whatever. I justsat there. I just sat there. And
(25:52):
then he said, but I'd reallylike to make your dream come true.
Oh, wow.
And I said, well, I can livewith that. So believe me, we had
many more discussions and lotsof planning, and ultimately we agreed
that I would travel on my ownfor a year. Now, it didn't mean I
(26:15):
wouldn't see him for a year.What we arranged is I'd go four months
at a time, three times. I'dcome home in between the first and
second and the second andthird segments, A little bit like
being on the quarter system.Okay, no finals. And I would visit
my children, visit an agingmom who had dementia, remind my Husband.
(26:39):
He was happily married andthen go off for another four months.
So that was how it happened.And he came and he visited me wherever
I happened to be for two weeksduring each of those sections of
travel.
So that was like a reasonable deal.
(27:00):
My father dying and theayahuasca created the shift. And
where it took me to was a yearof traveling on my own, really seeing
what was out there and what Icould do as a retired therapist that
could be useful.
So you did some work in some way?
(27:22):
I did work in some way. Butwhat was gorgeous is no appointments,
no office, no sitting in achair, and just being open to opportunities
that presented themselves.Would you like to hear about a couple
of those opportunities?
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Okay. Well, there are threethat come to mind. One was before
(27:43):
I left, a place I had visitedin Guatemala in my 20s, had had a
huge mudslide. This was a lakecalled Lake Atitlan, surrounded by
volcanoes, just gorgeous. Oneof the volcanoes, in a huge rainstorm,
had just collapsed and buriedan entire village.
(28:05):
Wow.
And the survivors were livingin these save the children Red Cross
shelters, basically tarps. AndI had heard that the children were
just traumatized. So thanks toa psychoanalyst here in San Francisco
(28:25):
who had developed workbooksfor children after Hurricane Katrina.
They were sort of like traumareduction workbooks that were filled
out in conversation with aparent or a teacher. I asked him
if I could take this model,translate it into Spanish for these
(28:45):
kids in Guatemala. I didn'ttell him I'd have to learn how to
speak Spanish before I coulddo it, but he said yes. So what I
did during my four monthsthere is I learned to speak Spanish.
I got help to do thistranslation. It had included a coloring
book where the children wouldcolor in drawings of before the disaster.
(29:10):
During the disaster, parentsand children being separated, reunited,
and then building thecommunity back up again. So that
was my project there.
I mean, that's just like a bigproject in itself. I'm thinking,
here you are, you're going ona sabbatical of like travel, you
(29:31):
know, like. But this is likemeaningful, like heart filling, soul
filling work that you'redoing. This is, this is your 22 year
old self doing your PeaceCorps work, right?
It's my 22 year old self Armedwith the skills of my 62 year old
self, able to do the PeaceCorps in a very different way. Different
(29:52):
because I was the boss,because it was one year rather than
two. And I really had a skillset that I just wanted to know how
useful in the Big world iswhat I've been doing for 35 years,
sitting in a chair. And thiswas my first discovery that it could
(30:13):
be really useful.
And, I mean, I would imaginethat, like, that. Well, first of
all, how did you choose whereyou were going? Was it based on the
fact that there was a mudslideand then you chose to go to Guatemala,
or were you just, like, planning?
I wasn't planning. I had beento this lake and adored it. I had
(30:35):
been to the lake as a guest ofa college classmate who had gone
into the Peace Corps, and so Ispent a month living with him and
his girlfriend. And I lovedthis place. I loved the people who
lived there. I loved the lifethat my friend was living on that
lake, speaking Spanish andplaying with kids and whatever. So
(31:00):
it was a blending of who I hadbecome and who I had once been, and.
And it was delicious.
I bet. I. I don't thinkthere's a. I don't think there's
a lot of people that canrelate to something that they were
so wanting to do for so long,but then had the opportunity to also
(31:21):
learn something and dosomething for so long and then blend
them together. It just alwaysfeels like, oh, you know, I was eight,
and I wish I had done this.And then you just never do it, or
you do it, and it's just likea check mark and not a blending of,
like, life experiences withthat. I mean, because that. That
moment was probably so muchricher by doing it in your 60s than
(31:46):
had you gone to the PeaceCorps and, like, done something.
You know, it just feels likethere's so many layers to. To something
like that.
Well, this was. This was awonderful thing. I. I corresponded
with another college friendwho had gone to the Peace Corps in
India, and I told him what Iwas doing, and he wrote back, and
(32:07):
he said, wow, what you aredoing is so much more like the Peace
Corps than that. What? So muchmore like what I thought I would
do in the Peace Corps thanwhat I actually got to do.
Yeah. What do. What did theydo? Like, someone that went to that
space, what would they havedone? Would it just be more like
service work and not so. Sodeeply connected to the community?
(32:30):
Well, it might be teachingEnglish, which seems like it's helpful
all over the world, since, forthe time being, English is an international
language. Some of them wereput in communities where they were
being asked to offer theirexpertise to people who might not
(32:51):
be using the best farmingtechniques or whatever, but they
were experts in doing it theirway. And these 22 year old consultants
didn't know what the heck theywere doing, which is a horrible feeling.
Yeah, I think that's what mostcollege graduates feel like when
they go into the workforce.They're like, well, I learned all
this stuff in this book. Guesswhat? Life is not like that.
(33:14):
Imagine what it's like thefirst six months you are called a
therapist and you sit downwith real people who really need
something from you.
I think that's, yeah, that's amuch deeper connection that is required.
But I, I mean, I just think oflike I went to business school the
first time and I just think ofthese, like my friends that did like
(33:36):
accounting or something, andyou learn what's in the textbook
for accounting and then youget into a real accounting job and
you're like, that's not,that's not what we do. Like, that's
just like what you think wedo. But that's not actually how the
real world works. But yeah, Iwould imagine being a therapist is
much more daunting at first.
Yes.
Does it ever not get dauntingor does, does it ever feel comfortable?
(33:58):
You know what I think is ittakes about seven years to get comfortable
in your skin. And I've heardteachers say it's about seven years
before you become a reallygood teacher.
That makes sense. Well, Imean, I think that's awesome that
you did the, I mean, you saidthere are multiple things, but the
Guatemala thing is just, Ithink about that 22 year old, had
(34:20):
you made that decision to turnin your application, get accepted
and go, all the other thingsthat wouldn't have happened in your
life because of going to that.So it's like almost, you know, like
we could play that game.
Yes, I'd love, I'd love toplay that game. But they only give
you one life.
I know, but you think aboutthat. But. And the reason I say that
(34:41):
is because the route you didtake perhaps made this, this part
of the journey that muchricher, that much more beautiful
or as you said, delicious. Doyou think that, do you think that's
true?
I know it was delicious. Ithink it was also healing. You know,
it didn't make me tall andblonde in a ballerina, but it made
(35:04):
me feel much more kindlytoward myself and the path I'd taken
in my life.
How so?
If I had been the, if I had22, had known what I know as a 60
year old, I jolly well wouldhave mailed in that application.
Well, yeah, okay. And thefriends I knew who went to the Peace
(35:26):
Corps came back with A muchmore worldly sense, with a much bigger
sense of the world, with morecourage and more confidence, and
I could have used that. So Istayed a late bloomer, maybe longer
(35:46):
than I would have liked. Butthe point is, that shift I got there,
I got to where I wanted to be.And part of what made it exciting
at 60 was that I thought itwas too late. I thought I had permanently
forfeited this opportunity.How many 60 year olds go traveling
(36:07):
around the world by themselves?
How many go to the jungle anddo an ayahuasca thing?
We got brought there by verycaring. We had a guide. Once I got
on the plane, I had nothingexcept a destination to start, you
know, Good.
No, I mean, I think there'ssomething to be said about making
(36:30):
those choices though, too,because you very well could have
just kept going with, youknow, this checklist kind of journey
that you were on. Not to saythat you didn't enjoy it exactly.
You know, like, you could havejust listened to your husband when
he had his case closed voice,you know, like, and. Or you could
(36:50):
have been sassy instead ofbeing quiet, because I bet that quiet
part made him think, wait asecond, she, like, really needs this.
It certainly gave him space to think.
Yeah.
You know? Yep.
Instead of like back andforth, you know, I think that. I
think that's beautiful thatyou did that. I love that. What,
what other experience you saidyou had?
3, but I do have 3. Well, thenext one was in Java. I was in Java
(37:18):
just for a few days. This wasone of the places where my husband
met me. And it was our. We'dbeen there for two or three days.
It was our last night beforewe were going to fly to Bali and
we were in an earthquake thatlasted for 59 seconds. I know you
don't live on the West coast,but 59 seconds is a very long time
(37:44):
to have shaking get strongerand stronger and stronger, to not
be quite sure what thebuilding you're in is made out of,
and to think there's a realgood chance you're going to die.
Because we'd only been there acouple of days. I'm thinking during
these 59 seconds, boy, that'slasting a long time. Boy, that's
lasting a long time. Oh, myGod, I think I'm going to die. And
(38:07):
where the blank am I? So 6,000people died. We were quite close
to the epicenter. I got anemail from my daughter saying, mom,
are you okay? And I said, yes,a lot of people died, but I'm okay.
(38:28):
And she said, well, good. Iknow you were looking for a service
project.
She knew you.
Exactly. So I ended up joininga Red Cross disaster mental health
group and putting togetheranother work group book and getting
another artist to make acoloring book.
(38:49):
Right place, right time. Imean, unfortunate time, but exactly,
exactly. It's. I mean, I feellike the universe was like serving
this experience to you on likea silver platter because it realized
how long you had been yearningfor that kind of experience.
Yes.
Yeah. How was that?
(39:11):
Well, when I safely got hometo San Francisco, I thought, oh,
here I am on the San Andreasfault. Safe, safe at last.
Because it was familiar,right? Like you had an earthquake
there. At least, you know,like where you are, where the F you
are.
Right, exactly.
Yeah. No, that's. I mean,it's, it's just, I don't know, I'm
(39:32):
still like. And maybe I'm inmy 40s now, so maybe in my 60s, I'm
going to choose to dosomething that I chose not to do
in my 20s because of your story.
That would be wonderful.
Or maybe I'll do it in my 40s.
How about right now?
Exactly. Oh, bye.
What's in your back pocket?So. Well, yes, in telling the story
(39:54):
in my book, I have severalgoals. And I didn't start out with
those goals. They kind of cameout of the writing. And one is that
being over 50 or 60 doesn'tmean the game is over. It means you
need to use your imaginationto have a little bit of audacity
(40:18):
or a lot and a lot.
You find it's harder to beaudacious as you get older or easier.
Easier because you don't care.
Way easier. I did something inmy 50s that my daughter thought was
just ridiculous. Some bag Iwas carrying to put post its in so
(40:39):
that I didn't forget things.And she said, you can't do that.
And I said, hey, I'm 60, I cando whatever I please. So no, I think
it's a lot easier in anenvironment of safety if you're in
a war zone. No way. You know,but under happy and fortunate circumstances,
(41:00):
you bet.
Thinking before we go intoyour book, be thinking back to when
your father died and you weretalking about like, how you realize,
like, oh, like this couldhappen to me too, like I could die.
Did he. Did you feel or didyou know if he had regrets when he
died? Did he have things thathe just didn't achieve or, or do
(41:21):
because life that like kind ofsignaled that maybe you should start
to do those things.
He wasn't A big talker. But Iknow him well enough that I think
he was a little sorry hehadn't won a Nobel Prize.
Small goal.
So yes.
(41:43):
What did he do?
He was a biochemist and aophthalmologist and an eye surgeon.
That makes more sense.
And he did some veryimpressive things. Didn't get a Nobel
Prize. And one of the realgems of that time traveling. There
was a part of me that thought,hey, if you're a good daughter, you
(42:06):
go get a Nobel Prize and thenyou can go out and play. I discovered
there's so many small ways asa traveler that you can contribute
that they don't have to beNobel Prize worthy, that you can
be helpful in small ways andin very non professional settings.
So I wanted to tell you thethird situation where I got to use
(42:30):
what I had learned as atherapist. So I'm in Bali on my own,
snorkeling in the ocean. Thereis a woman, an English speaking woman
who's out there in the watertoo. And everyone had been curious
about her because a youngBalinese man, this woman was probably
in her 50s, this very young,very gorgeous Balinese man would
(42:53):
drive his motorcycle up to hercottage each evening. And it was
like, hey, what's going on? Sowe're standing waist deep in this
water, trying not to step oncoral, and she tells me her story.
And her story was of she hadbeen involved romantically with this
(43:14):
young man and she discoveredthat he had had a baby with a young
Balinese woman. And she wasdevastated and she was furious and
she really didn't know what todo with her wrath. And I thought
about a couple I had known incollege and I asked if I could tell
(43:34):
her a story. And the story wasof a minister and his wife and he
had an affair and the womangot pregnant and he had to come and
inform his wife. These weretwo of the most godlike people I
(43:57):
have ever met. And she said,if that's your child, then they are
family. And to this day, themother and her child are part of
Thanksgivings and Christmasand they have half brothers and sisters.
(44:18):
And that child has never feltanything except loved and included.
So I tell this story and hereyes get big and she says, boy, I'd
like to do something likethat. And I said, well, you're still
really angry. You can't hurrythese things. And she said, no, I've
(44:40):
been angry a really long time.Did I tell you they named the baby
after me? The baby has my name.
Oh my.
She said, this is a remarkableYoung man, he has enough room in
his heart to love many people.Then she went off towards her coral
reef and I went off towardmine. Never know what she did with
(45:02):
that story. And it's not mybusiness. You know, a therapist,
you interact, you share whatyou have and what comes of it. Not
your business. So anyway, thatwas, I love that image that I was
able to be useful with therapyskills. In the sea. In the sea.
(45:24):
In a beautiful spot. Yeah. No,I think it also just tells me the
power of story. Whether shedid the exact same thing, whether
it made her think differently.I mean, it obviously affected her
in some way of hearing thatstory. And the power that you have
to be able to recall thatstory or to bring that story, to
connect those particularthings is so special. But I mean,
(45:47):
I love that.
And you've made story what youdo for your listeners and for your
guests.
Yeah, I think it's important.And I think of the younger version
of myself and I think of whenI have these conversations, what
did he need to hear because heneeded so much that he didn't get?
(46:08):
Because my dad was in hismid-30s, he was suddenly as an only
parent of, you know, a childhe was going to see every holiday,
you know, kind of thing. Andhe wasn't prepared. He didn't know
how to grieve. His mom didn'tknow how to grieve because she, you
know, she was a child of the30s and you know, that just isn't
what she did. You know, theydidn't learn that stuff. And I think
(46:30):
about that 8 year old or 10year old version of me or the 15
year old version of me. Had Iheard a conversation about a 40 year
old guy who had his mom diedwhen he was a kid and these are all
the things that he was able toaccomplish. Like what if I had heard
that as a younger kid, Would Ihave felt more confident in certain
(46:50):
things? Would I have takenmore risks? Would I have dropped
the fear of abandonment? What,you know, like all those things.
And so when I have theseconversations, yes, it's about like
talking about real things andreal emotions and that. And that's
why like I ask you, like, didyou feel jealous, you know, of those
moments or did, you know,whatever these things are? Because
(47:11):
I think I did like I would goto people's houses and I see their,
their mom and their dadinteracting. My parents were divorced,
so first of all I had that,but then I didn't have a mom. So
I would be watching thesepeople interact with their mom and
Be like jealous, you know. Andso having these emotions is important
(47:31):
and having these conversationsis important and I love that you're
able to do it.
Well, I'll tell you whatyou're bringing to mind for me is
that for all of us, whetherwe're traumatized in specific ways
or not, we still take ourthree year olds inside us. And in
certain circumstances, scarytimes, very Sad times, that 3 year
(47:55):
old or 8 year old or whateverpops up, whereas most of the time
it's just kind of quiet. Myfears of, well, they were fears of
being alone and of alone beinga dangerous situation. So for me,
traveling alone and making itwork was really. It's like having
(48:20):
a conversation with that threeyear old saying the monster in the
closet that you've been afraidof all that time isn't all that scary.
You know, that's funny thatyou say it in that way is because
that's how I feel about likethings that I worry about in my head.
They're so scary. And then assoon as I say them out loud, I'm
like, what? That's likenothing. Like. Or I write it down
(48:43):
and I'm like, why was I. Thissounds like nothing. So it's kind
of in the same way of likewhere people bottle things up and
they don't let it out. And assoon as they let it out it's like,
oh, and it's really not thatbad. I can do something with this
and move forward with it. Soyes, I love that connection. What
made you start writing yourbook though? Like, why write a book?
(49:06):
I wrote a book because it wasthe second most exciting thing I
had done in my life. Maybethree. Going to summer camp, leaving
my parents for the very firsttime and going away to where kids
all got to sleep in a cabintogether. And you learn how to swim
and paddle a canoe and thenyou go off for five days on a camping
(49:30):
trip. That was beautiful.Having babies was fabulous. And this
trip was up there as part ofthe top three most exciting. Thanks.
Well, it's because you wereconnecting your 22 year old self
too with the rest of yourlife. I love that.
Yep. I also had the goodfortune that a woman who my husband
(49:54):
knew, who was a poet, when sheheard about the trip, she said, take
a journal and journal about itand pay attention to details, write
down details. So in a way, Icame home with material for a book,
but it was another 15 yearsbefore I put it between covers.
(50:17):
Yeah. What was that journeylike? Was it overwhelming? Was it
fun? Was it all the Things.
What I needed in order tofinish it was for my husband and
me to grow more. The bookneeded a really happy ending, and
we kept sliding back into ourold habit of him working too much
(50:40):
and my being lonely and biggerand whatever, which wasn't a very
good ending to the book. Soover. I spent two years talking weekly
with a therapist who was alsodevoted Buddhist. And I went to her
because more about theBuddhism than about the therapy.
(51:04):
And what I think I learned inthose two years is that a good enough
marriage is a good marriage.So I kind of made my piece that I
had chosen not just wellenough, but I'd chosen well. And,
you know, when you starttreating your partner like you chose
them wisely, it's amazing howmuch more they want to show up for
(51:26):
dinner, and then you want totreat them even more nicely because
they showed up for dinner. Sothat. That spiral through.
That's. That's a powerfulthought. That's really hard to, like,
digest in one little. Youknow, how we were talking about,
like, the weirdest littlepieces of people's stories. Stick
(51:47):
with you. That one rightthere, like, shine in my face. I
think that's true of, like,friendships, too. I think that's
true of, like, any kind ofrelationship as well. Would you agree?
Yes.
That you choose, like, I thinkfor many of us, and I don't know
why, but we absorb, like, whata marriage should be or what a friendship
(52:09):
should be, and then we, like,have these standards that are never
met, and then we're mad aboutit, and then all, you know, then
you spiral in that way. But,yeah, I love that. That nugget that
you just dropped on us for usto think about.
But what was the key thatopened the door was really coming
to believe that a good enoughmarriage is a good marriage. Because
(52:32):
what it did is it erased mysense of what an idiot I was. That's
the same as the not sending inthat application to the Peace Corps.
What an idiot I was to choosethis person. Well, even if you never
say it out loud, your tone ofvoice communicates it. And, you know,
(52:53):
the part that took it one stepfurther was actually Covid.
Because you were forced to betogether so much.
Exactly. And I kept it asecret for a long time because how
can you say good things cameout of pandemic that slaughtered
(53:13):
millions of people? But ourgovernor, Gavin Newsom, required
people to work from home. Andmy husband had just finished telling
me, in that case, his closedvoice, that there was no way he could
do psychoanalysis remotely.And no Way Jose. Two days later,
(53:34):
he had to. Well, first of all,it worked out fine professionally.
There are patients who stillprefer to have treatment by zoom.
But he discovered that helived in a beautiful home, and he
had a really nice wife, andshe cooked very good dinners, and
we have dinner together everynight. And in my book, when I'm acknowledging.
(53:58):
Thank you to. I have a thankyou to Governor.
Gavin Newsom for his lockdown.
Yes.
Which meanwhile, in Florida,we were locked down for, like, eight
minutes, I think, maybe.
Yep.
Yeah. No, I, I mean, I thinkthat's important. I think that's
a good message for people tounderstand, too. And I mean, you
(54:20):
have to come to it when you'reready to come to it. Had you had
that conversation maybe 10years earlier, it might not have
resonated in the same way. So,I mean, I think our experiences fill
that.
You're really wise in sayingthat. And I think one of the things
that my story does is it letspeople who are younger know that
(54:42):
there's no statute oflimitation on growing and on growing
as partners. And I learned itby doing it. But it feels very good
to share that news withyounger people.
Well, and I think it's, Ithink another part of your story
is the sabbatical that youchose to take when people maybe wouldn't
(55:05):
do it in the way that you didit, or like, maybe traditionally
you didn't see people do that.They retired and they went on a retiring
trip. You know, like it's aretirement trip of some sort, but
not in the way that you didit. You did it in a service. You
did it in a service one toyourself and what you needed, but
you did an in service of allthe people that you encountered in
(55:25):
that space. And I think thatis a really nice message. I think
we probably, like what youthought about when your father passed
is like, oh, wait, like, Ineed to do some stuff before this
is over kind of thing.
Yes.
And we kind of look at like,oh, well, we're old now. We can't
do anything. It's not true.It's just, you know, kind of a. I
don't know how to say thatwithout sounding insulting.
(55:48):
Well, it's pretty daring for avery obedient young person, don't
you think?
I guess so. Yes. I'm verysharing. No, I, I, I, I love your
story. I think it's, I thinkit's empowering. I think it's empowering
for anyone at any age becausethey're, I mean, I think every human
probably has some moment thatthey've placed in their back pocket
(56:11):
of like, why didn't I do that?You know, why? Or why did I do that?
I think that might happen too,you know, and I think we can. We
can make amends with ourselvesin a way. I don't know if we want
to call it amends, but I thinkwe could in the way that you did.
You know, I think that's sowonderful. I'm wondering if. If Leah,
(56:32):
this version of you could goback to the Leah right after your
father died. Is there anythingthat this version of you would want
to tell her because you hadn'tgone on all those adventures?
Frankly, if you don't mind,I'd like to take her all the way
back to that 22 year old. Icould do that because that's the
(56:52):
conversation that I've thoughtof lots of times.
Yeah. What would you tell her?
You do not have to be so good.You can put down your history book
and just look around. Historyis actually happening right now.
There are more, but I'm notsure it's appropriate to share them.
(57:15):
Would you tell her to turn inthat application?
Oh, yes.
Would you?
And yes. And you know what Itell her? You are going to be scared
beyond any kind of terroryou've ever felt. And it's going
to be all right. It's just a feeling.
You know what? Every, almostevery person that I ask a very similar
(57:38):
question to, they tell thatyounger person that it's going to
be okay. And so it's reallyinteresting that even though yours
is like a different type ofstory that maybe I think of differently
because it's not similar to myown experience, same thing. We would
tell this younger version ofourselves that like all the. That
we were worried about. It'sgonna be okay, you know, like, we're
(58:02):
gonna be okay. Yes, we'regonna make it through. Because that's
what the human, human spiritdoes. Like you, you make it through.
Hopefully in most cases. In alot of cases.
Right?
Yes. First, can you tell usthe name of your book?
Yes. The book is called MyMarriage A Memoir of Solo Travel
(58:24):
and Lasting Love.
Excellent. And where can theyget this book? Everywhere that books
are sold.
Yes. And it's on order now.And on January 7th, it's going to
be on the shelves andavailable everywhere books are sold.
(58:44):
Awesome. Well, by the timethis comes out, this is going to
come out in early January. Soas you're listening to this, make
sure you check the links inthe show notes so that you can access
that. Also, if People want toget in your circle or connect with
you or tell you their story orwhatever. Is that something you're
into? And how could they do that?
Absolutely. Well, let me backup a moment. There are several books
(59:05):
called Marriage Sabbatical byseveral authors. So you need to sort
through the others. If youwant mine, we will give you the link.
There you go. And my websiteis mymarriagesabbatical.com there
are photos from my trip,stories from the trip, and an opportunity.
(59:25):
Actually there's a wholesection on negotiating important
issues with your partner.
Oh, that's awesome. That's helpful.
Yep. So yes, I would love tohear from your viewers.
Are there contact form andstuff on there that they can reach
out to you?
All the things we need are onthere. Yes. And I'd love to hear
from people.
(59:47):
Well, I would like to thankyou for sharing your story in this
way and answering my weirdquestions or whatever came up. I
really appreciate you wantingto just be a part of this healing
journey for me of the LifeShift podcast.
Thank you so much.
And if you are listening,thank you for listening. I love it
if you stick around. If youlike the show ratings reviews on
(01:00:09):
Apple podcasts. That's sohelpful. But otherwise I'm going
to say goodbye. I'm going tosay goodbye to Leah and I will be
back next week with a brandnew episode of the Life Shift podcast.
Thanks again, Leah.
Foreign.
(01:00:29):
For more information pleasevisit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.
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