July 2, 2024 • 49 mins
Ray, E.Z., and Oscar jump into the controversial topic of Taylor Swift’s music. Secular music is not completely off the table for Christians, but caution and conviction are essential. There’s latitude within the faith that allows for engagement with secular music, yet it’s crucial to examine the foundations of these choices and be open to sharpening each other’s understanding.
The devotion to Taylor Swift is a phenomenon. Humans are inherently worshipful, and for the secular world, concerts can be a form of worship. Singing together embeds narratives into our hearts, much as a religious experience. Music’s power is significant. Parents should be mindful of what their children are exposed to, including Taylor Swift’s songs. Her lyrics, often seen as innocent, have evolved and can be concerning.
From a marketing perspective, starting with clean lyrics captures a broad audience, which may then follow an artist into more mature themes. Taylor Swift has transitioned from America’s sweetheart to a feminist icon, with her lyrics becoming increasingly explicit. This shift should prompt parents to consider what they are endorsing when supporting her music and concerts. Some of her lyrics now contain blasphemous content.
Many dismiss the impact of hearing cuss words; however, the Bible advises caution about what enters our hearts and minds, emphasizing the pursuit of purity and goodness. The stories conveyed in Swift’s music are also a point of importance. Her songs reflect a searching for self-worth and addressing desires. These themes often contradict scripture and promote a false gospel of self-reliance and expressive individualism.
This discussion is not an attack on Taylor Swift but a caution for her. The aim is to urge her to turn away from sin and embrace a more righteous path. Corrupt entertainment influences our thoughts, and Christians should instead align their desires with God’s will. Words have power, and the messages in music can shape our thinking.
Swift’s use of religious language to discuss sexuality is another concern. True fulfillment and identity are found in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not in sexual desires. The Song of Solomon presents a view of holy sexuality that contrasts with the world’s messages. Swift’s lyrics mock Christian values and blaspheme God. Many Christians may not realize the current state of Swift’s music. It’s essential to meditate on what is good and pure. Engaging with secular music requires discernment and a focus on maintaining spiritual integrity.
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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.
You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
She's still singing songs that ultimately look
inside of herself and findsherself as the anti-hero and
then tries to celebrate that,tries to demand the world accept
her for who she is.
And the beauty of the gospel.
Because here's the thing, Ithink those young girls, they
listen to that and they senseall of their own insecurities,
(00:21):
they sense all of their owndepravity and there's this like,
wow, can I just be depraved andaccepted?
Can I demand the world acceptme for who I am?
But there's something so muchmore beautiful about the gospel,
and the gospel is this is thatGod, that you are known by God
(00:43):
so much more than you could everimagine and you are more fallen
than you could ever imagine.
But also, through the cross, youare more loved and forgiven
than you can ever possiblyimagine and one of the things
that ultimately, like sheactually sings, you are what you
love, which is very Augustinianof her, because Augustine
(01:05):
pointed out Augustine, there yougo.
Augustine pointed out thatultimately, we are primarily
loving creatures and the problem, the reason why we sin, is
because we love the wrong thingsat the wrong times in the wrong
way.
And what the gospel does whenGod changes our hearts is that
he reorders our loves to loveGod first and then to love our
(01:27):
neighbor as ourself, whereexpressive individualism would
be love yourself first and thendemand everybody loves you
second.
That's the false gospel ofexpressive individualism.
I think the gospel we find inthe scriptures is so much better
, so much more freeing thanletting your desires rule your
(01:49):
life.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Friends, ray Comfort has taught me many things over
the course of my life.
He taught me how to the courseof my life, he taught me how to
hurt myself.
He's taught me how to breakthings.
He's taught me how toevangelize.
(02:17):
But most importantly, friends,ray Comfort has taught me a fact
of life, and that is the mostamount of times that a piece of
paper can be folded over is howmany times, ray.
Seven times Folded in half, itis Seven times.
And when I asked him thismorning just to confirm it, he
said, quote seven, yes, seven,maybe eight if you use tissue
(02:39):
the size of a football field,possibly.
So I know this is new news toOscar and he's already in
disbelief, but, oscar, I want tosee if we can prove whether or
not Ray is right or wrong.
Seven, I got to beat seven.
Yeah, you can't.
I actually think I have.
Wait, ray, are you sayingthat's a guarantee?
Yeah, you won't be able to doit more than seven times.
(03:00):
I have to fold this seven timesand more than seven times.
I have to fold this seven timesand half.
You can't fold it more thanseven is what he's saying,
that's one You'll do seven max.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
You won't even probably get to seven.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Okay, that's two.
Alright, let's see Oscar'sfolding skills.
Did you used to do?
What do they call that?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Origami.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Three Origami, that's three.
No, no, I'm at four.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
No, you're not.
No, you're not, let's step upthree Wait.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
One, two, three, four , Ah cheating Okay four.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Can we call you an origamist, Would that be?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
What is the Mexican?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
version of origami.
I got nothing.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Origamios.
So that's five.
Five, you're coming up to sixnext.
Six Max is seven you may noteven be able to do seven.
He can't do seven.
He's dropped on the floor totry and get rid of the thing.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Can you do seven?
I got seven.
Seven, Try eight.
Oscar Wow, Seven happened.
Ray Comfort was right.
Well, it's a well-known fact.
It's not mine.
So this is like.
This is gospel truth, now right.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, it's just never , never fall.
Okay, well, that was seven, andthen watch this.
Unfold and fold the other way.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Eight a nice try, oscar.
That was wow.
The lessons we learned from raycomfort thank you, it was
nothing yeah, now, ray, therewas this other thing that you
taught me years ago.
Um, it's this thing you do,where you can cut a piece of
paper, you fold it a certain wayand then it spells out the word
hell, oh, and then there's across.
Yes, it's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That thing is pretty cool, yeah, and it's a little
story that goes with it.
Have we ever thought of makinga track.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I think we did no, yes, we did seriously.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Many years ago I made a track telling people like
I've been here 21 years.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Must have been just before you got here.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Was it a flop?
Not really, just that not manypeople knew what it was.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Let's do it again, right?
All right, you know, there'ssomething else that blew my mind
this morning, and that's whatreminded me of this thing.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Ray, what happened to ?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
it.
Do I have a brain?
I saw these guys.
I think they were actually inindia.
Ray do a german accent put downthat gun never ceases to get me
.
Uh, but there were these indianguys, and they were actually
standing on each other'sshoulders.
Why?
(05:20):
Just for fun?
Just for fun, just for fun,because the shoulders were there
.
Guess how many of them werestacked up.
Well, we have to say, like fourno, balancing each other, no.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Just stack right on.
I'm going to say seven.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Seven.
Let's go, raise maximum number.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Oh, I see what you did there I see the connection.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
There's always a connection Dot com Too early.
Oh sorry, but it was seriouslyinsane to see these guys like on
each, but they kept gettingsmaller and smaller.
There was a little kid, yeahright, ray was at the top.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, thank you.
So the whole lot of themmounted to nine feet.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
No, it was pretty high, but they were shaking,
like all of them were shaking.
I'm like, if this keeps going,they're going to.
We should try that.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
So what was it?
A circus, or?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
something I don't know.
It was just like one of thosequick shorts that was like nine
seconds long, If the four of uswere going to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Who would be at the bottom?
What would the order?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
be Strongest, had to be at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
You'd be at the bottom, which would be me Of
course You'd be at the top.
Yeah, that would be.
We should do that One of those.
Should we Diamonds?
Should we do that?
It's the short guy that's gotthe most dangerous job.
The short guy's the contortion.
You see that, like some ofthese contortionists, that's
(06:48):
crazy.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
It's insane.
They can fold themselves morethan seven times.
Some of them.
I bet they could.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
This is true, but you know you really you look at
like even parkour, Like I don'teven understand that, Ray, you
know what parkour is?
No, it's those guys that jumplike off high buildings.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Oh, I've watched those.
Yeah, they're crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
But it's like, I guess, a science they've learned
where they crumple their bodyor they bend their legs.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I could almost do that in my youth.
I used to roll down the stairswhen I was a kid, deliberately.
That's what happened.
Deliberately, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
What?
What happened Deliberately?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, because now you do it on accident when you're
young, I used to jump over sixfoot fences with great energy
when you're about 11 orsomething like that, and you can
do things like that when you'rein your early teens.
I still jump fences.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
You do, I sure do.
Actually, no joke.
We were leaving something andwe were with a group of friends
and there was this fence thatwas meant to divide cars but not
people, and there was this tinylittle corridor where, like,
hundreds of people were pilingthrough and in my mind, I'm like
man, I don't what, like I neverwant to be too old where I
don't jump a fence, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And so I jumped the fence and I was very proud of
myself.
I feel the same way aboutroller coasters Seriously.
That's why I keep riding them,oscar.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yes, sir, same way about roller coasters, seriously
, that's why I keep riding them,oscar.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yes, sir, did you check what was on the other side
?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
of the fence.
It was a pit with crocodiles init.
Just jump a fence wherever,whatever.
Yeah consequences.
Yeah consequences.
Fences that kill you.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I did.
I pulled a Ray Comfort thismorning.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Oh, that's neat, that's wonderful, that's
terrific, is it, though?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I picked up a cup of coffee and I put it in my cup
holder in the center console ofmy car and I got to the office.
It was a full cup.
I hadn't drank any of it yetand I went to go pick it up and
it perfectly flipped over andpoured out in my cup holder,
which there's no, there's nocrack, so it just stayed there
(08:41):
in my cup holder.
Did you drink it, oscar?
I did what any reasonablecoffee drinker would do I got a
straw.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
No, so you're saying that the hot coffee permeated
the cardboard and made it soft,or something?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I think no, I re-comforted it.
I picked the cup up and it justlike flipped upside down and
poured out.
Oh, that's wonderful yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Oh, that's crazy, but no, you know, thinking of crazy
things, you do.
You really start realizing thatyou're aging when you can't do
things that you used to justlike, relish and love to do?
Well, I used to be able to putmy leg behind my head.
No, you did not.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I did.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I want a picture of you this morning I was thinking
about it, did you try it?
It didn't get like above myother calf when I was trying to
do it.
I'm like, okay, it's over.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I did a somersault about two years ago.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
No.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, I just thought I'd love to do it.
Then I spent about the next twominutes trying to get my head
together because everything wasspinning, which you don't get
when you're a little kid.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I turned 40 on Sunday and my family started.
We started talking we're allpretty competitive and they all
started telling me they can beatme in a race.
So we went outside and did 50yard dashes and I beat them all,
but I was so exhaustedafterwards yeah, I was so
exhausted, though.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, that's funny.
You said somersault, right?
I remember when my girls wereyoung and I'd say do a
somersault, do a somersault.
And one of my daughter' name isSummer, and one day Julia got
sad.
She goes.
I want to do a Julia somersault.
It was awesome.
But no, I used to be able totake my hand and my arm and take
(10:18):
it around.
I remember that Ow, you're notanymore that hurt.
I used to be able to bring itall the way around and grab the
earlobe on the other side.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
I remember you doing that.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You remember that right?
Yes, yeah, yeah, there's no.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Seriously Try it with the other hand.
Let me see.
I just want to see him do itagain.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I remember I used to be able to get up when I fell
down.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I fall and I can't get up.
Remember those.
No, but seriously, like youreally start realizing like this
is like it's our bodies change,but it frustrates me.
I am going to force myself tobe able to do that again because
I don't want to not be able todo something.
You feel the same way aboutthings.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
No, pain changes things.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
The pain of zw Zwayne .
I feel great.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I don't know what you guys are talking about.
Oscar, welcome to my 40s club.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I've only got a couple years left in this club.
Ray, do you wish you were 40again?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
No, Really no.
I wish I was about 17.
I'd stop at 40.
Yeah, I'd love to be able to goout surfing and be able to
breathe at the same time.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You really do take youth for granted, man.
Anyway, all right, friends,here's another cool, classy
comment, another card handed tome in person at that same Focal
Point banquet for our brother,mike Fabares.
This is from Frances Eng.
She said Dear Easy and Rachel.
Plug for my lovely wife who, bythe way, often gets very
(11:48):
frustrated because she'll beexercising, listening to the
podcast and we'll be talkingabout her and I'll be like I
don't know, throwing her underthe bus or something.
I can't defend myself.
She gets all frustrated, Ican't defend myself, all right,
anyway, this is from againFrances Ang.
She said Dear Easy and Rachel.
First, I thank my God throughJesus Christ for all of you,
(12:09):
because of your faith isproclaimed in all the world.
I first heard about Easy at theAdult Bible Fellowship at our
church, which is Compass greatchurch, compass Bible Church,
when you did the interview withPastor Kellen.
That led me to Living Watersand Rachel's Page, joyful
Mothers.
Plug for Rachel's Page, joyfulMothers.
It's got about 90,000 followers.
(12:31):
Wow, crazy.
My first episode was FindingCalm Amid your Busyness, or the
Busyness of Life.
That's the podcast.
That's what she means.
She came to the podcast.
That episode changed myperspective on something that
God planned, that God had beenteaching me and that was.
He understood that all the goodthings were not necessarily the
(12:52):
things he ought to do.
Kevin DeYoung, thatconversation really put it in
perspective.
The the reminders I needed whenI went about doing the things
in my daily life.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I know, I feel so bad .
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We often use your quotes in the episode in our
Thrive Marriage Group at Compassto stir each other up on toward
God's truth in many differentsubjects.
It's incredible how God causeswhat you guys do to encourage so
many probably far more peoplethan you will ever know, until
you reach heaven one day.
Wow, thank you so much.
(13:31):
It was really really a delightto meet you, francis.
You were a real blessing, andshe gave me a big bag of a bunch
of goodies for me and only me.
Anyway, thank you, francis, itwas a delight to meet you and
thank you for the encouragingcard.
Really, really a blessing.
All right, friends, time foranother radically revolutionary
resource Hell's best kept secretbook.
(13:56):
Ooh, we're plugging the booktoday.
Ray, you know I think the bookreally gets overlooked because
you have so many other books,but you know it's the sermon or
the video that's usuallymentioned.
But, ray, the book is good.
It's an overlooked book.
It's an overlooked book, anoverlooked, overcooked book.
We can call your cookbook anovercooked book, but Ray, how's?
(14:18):
The Skep Secret is a veryimportant message it used to be
called Poured Out for a ThirstyWorld.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Did you know that?
Yes, yeah, I did too.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Among your 30,000 other titles that you've tried.
On that book, we did try it,yeah, but get it, friends.
It's got a life-changingmessage.
And this is the expandededition with Study Guy.
And don't forget the LivingWaters mug and the Evidence
Study Bible.
All that Living Waters.
That's the old man painfulversion.
(14:49):
Good job, oscar, now thatyou're 40, you nailed it.
You nailed it.
All right, friends, enough ofthe silliness, more silliness.
Today we're talking about aChristian perspective on Taylor
Swift.
Ray, are you a Swifty?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
No, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
You know what a Swifty?
Is yes, I just had to be lustyif you're a Swifty yeah
following after Taylor Swiftfollowers, Now friends.
Are you guys ready for the hatemail?
Oh, I'm ready.
Let me tell you, and that'sexactly what I was about to say.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
But let me tell you I'm into some secular music.
I Let me tell you and that'sexactly what I was about to say,
but let me tell you I'm intosome secular music.
I absolutely love it.
So we're not saying you know,play organ music at home by
yourself.
We're saying you can have theliberty to listen to all sorts
of music.
Romans 14, 21, 22.
A being that condemns nothimself and that thing which he
allows and myself, and I know alot of my friends, and Scotty
(15:43):
included, absolutely loved theBeatles in the early days, when
their music was just so goodMakes me instantly remember
things that give me instantpleasure.
I love Katchaturian, who wasjust an amazing composer.
I love the Blue Danube, whichis secular, I don't know how it
goes.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah, no Bottom but bottom.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
No, no, hold on.
Let me tell you my firstintroduction to that song and I
thought it was like made for themovie.
But it was something way backwhen I was young.
It was with Jerry Lewis and itwas some song where he was
boxing or something, or a moviehe was boxing and it had that
tune.
He was like getting punched inthe face or punching someone or
something.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
There's also a song called it's a Time to Say
Goodbye, oh yeah.
It absolutely just gives me Isthat, taylor Swift.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
It's a time to say goodbye.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, he used to like that song yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
We were actually filming Las Vegas, one of our
programs, and the big fountainbehind us and I can't remember
what it is, but that famoushotel.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Bellagio, bellagio bellagio.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
They were playing that song and I just about
melted oh I remember that rightand I think maybe you or someone
.
That song gets me every time wedidn't know what it was and I
just had it in the back of mymind.
And then I heard it years laterand I found out the title and,
uh, went and listened to itbeing played.
So, yeah, there is secularmusic that is absolutely
phenomenal and it just makes youthink of the greatness of God,
makes you feel good.
(17:06):
And so we're not condemning allsecular music, we're just
saying there's some music that'swrapped in the world.
We shouldn't even have toaddress this.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Right, yeah, and I think that you know.
I'm glad you made that point,ray.
You know, we really try to becautious in what we say when it
comes to convictions.
We all have differentconvictions, you know.
My wife and I we've hadconviction for years that we
mainly listen, you know, toChristian music, and it's not
(17:35):
because secular music is sinful,but we just made that decision
based on, you know, our sense ofwhat we wanted to fill our
hearts and minds with what wewanted to recall, right, conver.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I had.
One of my greatest joys isdriving back with you after we
did some filming and playingneil diamonds music to you for
the first time and you got toappreciate some of that.
Oh yeah, I'd never.
Yeah, I never really listenedto it, it was just make sure,
did you repent?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
um well, I'm still doing penance, okay over that,
I've got 30 lashes.
Yeah, I realized I had a neildiamond shaped hole in my heart
with diamonds, uh, yeah yeah, somy point is that look we all
have different convictions andagain, ours is not extreme.
It's not like we could neverlisten to a second song, or it's
not like we never say, oh, whatwas that song, I want to hear
(18:15):
it, or whatever.
But just as the norm, we listento mainly Christian music, you
know.
But others have differentconvictions and that's what I
love about the differencebetween us.
And, by the way, friends, markis not with us today.
It's just the three of us, soyou're going to have to do
without Mark's extraordinarywisdom, but I love the fact.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
He's at a Taylor.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Swift conference.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
That's where.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Mark is.
He's a Swifty, but I love thefact that do have different
convictions on things that arenot consequential, and that
there is that latitude withinthe faith.
I love that because ifeveryone's the same, you should
be concerned.
You have some cultic elementgoing on there.
If every single thing isexactly the same, I think the
(19:01):
main no one is the same as you.
Thank God for that.
But it's good that we examinethe foundation of things like,
hey, is this dishonoring to theLord, Is this blasphemous, Is
this grieving the Spirit?
And just to have those broadprinciples when we examine our
(19:23):
convictions and then to eachgive one another that latitude.
But I think there are certainthings that we need to step back
and look at and say, hey, isthis something that is healthy?
Is it good, Is it wise?
And to challenge each other.
You might land in a differentplace on your convictions, but
at least let's sharpen eachother and be humble enough to
listen.
But, Oscar, you said hate mail,and for good reason, because
(19:46):
and that's why we're dealingwith this today because there's
this phenomenon surroundingTaylor Swift that is one of the
most bizarre things I've everseen.
I mean, it's almost beyond likea Beatle type mania in that
there's this like crazy loyaldevotion.
I mean someone could say, ohyeah, I don't really like the
Beatles hair.
Someone would say, oh okay,whatever, but like anything-.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
You're making me mad.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, Anything anyone says about Taylor Swift, oh,
you're dead.
Basically.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I heard a pundit.
They were about to saysomething.
I don't even know if it wassuper critical, but they were
just gonna make a critique.
I think the critique was simplythat they're not a fan of
Taylor Swift and right beforethey said it they paused and
they're like please, guys, Ihave a family.
Like just knowing the TaylorSwift like phenomenon that is
behind it.
But that gets into.
(20:35):
You know somebody, somebodyfrom Medium, wrote an article
titled Take Me to Church theReligious Experience of a
Concert, and it reminded me of abook that I read years ago
called Strange Rites, in whichthe author made an argument that
we have these desires forliturgy and religious experience
, that even when people areliving in a totally secular
(20:58):
world, they're not thinkinganything of God, they're still
act because they are made.
We are all made to worship.
Right, that's somethingfoundational that the scriptures
teach us as image bearers.
We are made to worship God andthere's never a moment where an
individual is not worshiping.
The question isn't whether ornot somebody is worshiping.
(21:20):
The question is, what are youworshiping?
And so for many in the secularworld, the concert going, music
festival experience is a form ofa religious experience.
As they go off and buy ticketsand travel to locations, it's
often like a pilgrimage whenthey gather and they talk to
(21:41):
other people that they've nevermet before about the music, the
exchange, mythological.
You know who is this song about?
Was it about this ex-boyfriendor that ex-boyfriend?
When you get in front of thatstage and you lift your voices
and you sing together.
The author of Strange Ritespointed out.
When we sing communally theauthor of Strange Rites pointed
out when we sing communally,what we're actually doing is
(22:04):
affirming truths in the heartsof the people around us.
And so when I stand and I singall glory be to Christ, my voice
to me matters less than thevoices I hear around me.
They're infusing truth into myheart when they my congregation
is singing all glory be toChrist and I'm in that
(22:25):
congregation.
So when you go to a concert nomatter whose concert, and
everybody lifts their voices andsings together, we are infusing
some narrative into our hearts.
In other words, why is therethis fanatic adoration,
(22:45):
protection of Taylor Swift, ofwhat it does?
It's not just her, sometimesit's other figures as well.
It's because it is, it's a formof, like this religious
experience to follow to, to goto the concert.
It's a, it's a liturgy and weprotect.
We protect the things that welove.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Wow, that's so, so true, oscar, and well put.
And you know and again I lovewhat you had said right, like
music, it has, you know, certainelements in it and resonates
with the heart.
And that's why there's somesongs that are beautiful.
They're not crass, they don'thave profanity in them, they're
not based in humanisticphilosophy, they're about, you
know, about love or beauty orwhatever.
(23:20):
But then it drifts into otherareas and that's what we're
going to talk about.
But, ray, music is powerful.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Very powerful, especially lyrics.
They carry a message Super Bowl, you'll pay millions of dollars
just to have 30 seconds intosomeone's brain.
Why would they do that?
Because they know we can beinfluenced so easily.
So lyrics and music can eithersend us to the glory of God or
somewhere else.
I remember years ago when I wasin drug prevention work I may
(23:51):
have mentioned this before, Idon't know, tell me if I have
where I studied the lyrics ofsome rock groups and I was
horrified, like the DeadKennedys, a very popular group
years ago.
The lyrics of one of theirwholesome songs was I kill
children.
I love to watch them die, killchildren, make their mums cry,
crush them under my car.
I love to hear them scream,feed them poison candy, spoil
(24:12):
their halloween.
Wow, that song.
That's one of their songs.
And so I I went to the media andI says I want to put some
advertisements on television, um, warning parents about the
lyrics of some heavy metal rockmusic because they're so bad.
I told them and they said okay,and they let me do it because
of my high profile in the drugprevention center in the city
and across the nation in thosedays.
(24:33):
So I said okay, but they saidyou can't quote the lyrics
because you're violatingcopyright, and so I couldn't do
anything.
Anyway, I went ahead and madethe advertisements and just said
please read the lyrics of yourkids, what they're listening to,
because some of them are reallybad.
And then I was sitting in my carjust after they were broadcast
and I thought this is going tomake some people really mad, and
(24:53):
a guy walked right in front ofmy car.
He turned around and stared atme really intently.
Then he came around to thedriver's side and really
intently.
Then he came around to thedriver's side and I wound down
the window and he got his fist,pulled it back and threw $20
into my lap and he walked off.
And so I'll never forget that,that experience.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
But, yeah, taylor Swift's lyrics, her latest album
, which is called Tortured PoetsDepartment, and by the way, Ray
, if I can give a disclaimer forany parents that are listening
now, this is a little disclaimer.
We know a lot of youngsterslisten to this podcast, actually
, which is such a blessing to usbut you need to discern right
now if you may want to pause thepodcast or have your kids go in
(25:34):
the other room or whatever,because we are going to read
some lyrics.
We're not going to say thefilthy words, but we're going to
maybe say the letter they startwith.
But it's important again foryou to hear these things as
parents, because we know thereare some of you that are
listening and your kids listento Taylor Swift and maybe
innocently.
So, right, you haven't reallylistened to the music, you don't
know the nuances of what she'ssaying in some of her even more
(25:55):
recent songs and even some ofthe past.
So we just want to give thatdisclaimer.
I'm going on a little bit togive you time to get your kids
out of the room or to pause thisPerhaps you could sing just for
30 seconds.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Whoa, who just hit, play on the Taylor Swift album
All right right.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, and it's not just her immodesty, because
she's incredibly immodest whenit comes to her gestures on
stage, relatively immodest whenit comes to her gestures on
stage, but uh, and the torturedpoets department track to who's
going to hold you?
Hold you like me?
Nobody.
No, f body, nobody.
This is Taylor Swift, someonewho professes to be a Christian.
God gave um, god saved the mostjudgmental creeps who say they
(26:37):
want what's best for me,sanctimoniously performing
soliloquies.
I'll never see she'spro-abortion very strongly.
She came back.
Sorry, she said in one of thelyrics.
This is the second track.
We came back when the heat dieddown, went to my parents and
they came around.
All the wine mums are stillholding out, but F and she says
(27:01):
the word M, it's over, wow.
So this is.
There should be no argument.
Just don't listen to TaylorSwift.
It's of the world, it'shorrible.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know it's interesting,oscar, what you said earlier
about that man who said man, Ihave a family.
But yeah, I mean, I was at aChristian in a Christian setting
and there were young people andI brought up Taylor Swift
because it's like you almosthave to these days because it's
such a weird little cultfollowing and you could just see
(27:32):
some of the girls squirming andsome of the guys started Did
you get beat up Pretty muchclose to it?
But some of the guys startedlooking at the girls and like
kind of snickering, like ohcause.
I said, look, and I know I knowyou guys are going to hate me
for this, but let me be honestwith you and it was like you
could just tell, like so.
So there is this, this thingthat's going on, and there is
this image, I think still heldby some parents, that she's just
(27:55):
a squeaky, clean, nice,innocent, you know, woman and
that's just not the case.
Maybe there was a time, wayback when Well, she's in her
thirties now, yeah, but way backwhen she was young.
I mean, she was, she was astart like 18, 19.
I think she was really youngand sweet, christian Beck.
Yeah, and that's how it alwaysstarts with a lot of these
musicians.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
With Elvis.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, but but, oscar, do you think these days, like
there's almost an intentionalagenda by their labels or their
publicists to like get them todo?
Because it's like almosteveryone remember Britney Spears
shaved her head and starteddoing these crazy things.
Justin Bieber, he started, likeyou know, doing crazy stuff
with his car getting arrested.
(28:34):
And Madonna she was weird.
Yeah, madonna, I mean all theseit like seems like they start
doing something, maybe to getmore accepted and edgy with the
older kids, or what do you think?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a great model if
you're looking at it, If I'mlooking at it from like a
secular marketing perspective.
So I don't even wanna talkconspiracy theory.
Let me just look at, let me putmy marketing hat on here and
put it like this Like if I canget you to listen to somebody,
if I throw cuss lyrics, if it'svulgar right at the front, that
(29:08):
immediately cuts out a massaudience, right, which is
younger generations or parentsthat are concerned about that.
But if the first pieces ofproduct that I put out there are
squeaky clean, they sound moreconservative in nature, they're
about silly things, you know, etcetera, et cetera, then I
capture a particular audience.
(29:30):
And once you get a loyal thequote is the important thing is
once you get a loyal fan base,that fan base will I'm using air
quotes mature alongside of you.
You will go from PG to PG-13 tomature audience only Because
you're connected to thepersonality, right, that's
exactly right, and so I thinkyou know I don't need to be, I
(29:52):
don't need to spin a conspiracytheory here.
I would just tell you if I'm arecord label thinking about
marketing the next 18 year oldyeah, the first few albums.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I'm gonna want it to be super squeaky clean.
And then after that, we broughtin our horizons a bit.
Wow, well, let me read thisfrom billboardcom this is this
actually surprised me.
Who's the guy, bill?
But he was bored, yeah, so hestarted a website, dot com.
Um, yeah, oh, I didn't even.
I didn't even do the resourceof the day.
Wow, we'll have to get back tothat awkward.
Awkward because you said dotcom and it reminded me.
Um, yeah, so the lord saystaylor.
(30:31):
Swift has always been explicitin her songs, delivering crystal
clear messages with uberspecific details, and in the
last five years, she's also beenexplicit in the parental
advisory definition of the word,meaning she's now comfortable
dropping an F-bomb here andthere.
When Swift released her sixthstudio album, reputation, in
2017, her return to music afterthree years was a triumphant one
(30:53):
, as she took control of her ownnarrative and cemented her
transformation from America'ssweetheart to proudly feminist
idol.
And her declaration in thealbum cut I did something bad
that if a man asks SH, then Iowe him nothing formally marked
her drive into the world of cusswords With Lover in 2019 came
(31:14):
the line.
I'd be a B-I-T-C-H, not aballer from the man.
But Swift's first explicitlyexplicit track did not arrive
until her pandemic era 2020sisters album, folklore and
evermore, opening the formerwith the line I'm doing good,
I'm on the new sh was just thestart.
(31:36):
Iconic lyrics like what a shameshe effed in the head.
She's effed in the head, theysaid, follow shortly after On
her 10th studio set, midnight's.
The lyrics have become morecolorful than ever.
The 13-track project includessix explicit songs with the
curse words ranging from hell toFN to one we surely did not
(31:56):
have on our bingo card, and Iwon't even do this one because
it's so bad.
So guys.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
It's interesting how the world describes these that
colorful.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, no, it's filthy , yeah, colorful.
You know she's getting edgyshe's.
But, christian, listen, this iswhat your kids, if they're
listening to her, are listeningto.
This is what you're paying forwhen you're sending them to her
concert, when she's gyrating onstage, dressed very sensually,
(32:32):
using curse words, and now she'sdrifting into directly
blaspheming God.
And this is where the concernagain heightens even more
Witchcraft and things like that,what's that Witchcraft?
Yeah, yeah, and we'll get intosome of those here.
But, ray, some people like havethis mindset of what's the big
deal?
(32:52):
My kids are going to hear cusswords all around in society
anyway, so it's fine.
Why make a big deal out of?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
it.
Yeah, what book are you reading?
You know you're reading thescriptures.
You say whatsoever.
Things are pure of good report.
Think on these things.
Where's your fear of God?
You know God says be carefulwhat comes out of your mouth, be
careful what's in your heart.
And so if you've got that sortof attitude, how do you know
you're saved?
Why do you take the labelChristian if you're not prepared
to live up?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
You know, I wanna.
I think it's.
I love the important reality oflooking at the curse words and
that being a reason to stoplistening.
I think another way ofapproaching this, too, is what
is the story that is being told?
What's the narrative?
We are narrative drivencreatures.
(33:42):
We tell stories.
It is in our nature and we cometo understand truth about
ourselves and the world aroundus through story.
God reveals himself through astory.
The Bible isn't just a bunch ofone-liners for us to get to know
God.
It is the story of Godreconciling the world to himself
.
It is in our nature to come tounderstand things about
(34:04):
ourselves and the world throughstory, and so it's beyond the
language, right, the foullanguage, and it's more to me
about what is the story thatshe's saying, and one of the
things that I try to do in theway that I interact with culture
and I borrow this from Acts 17,which is Paul he listens to the
(34:25):
poets of the age and he findsareas in which they may be
longing for God or he findsareas in which they are
contradicting the better story,the greater story of God
reconciling the world to himself.
And so when you look at like, Itry to look at Taylor Swift
through that lens, and it'sYou're suggesting in Taylor
(34:46):
Swift tracked.
Well, actually I'm gonnareference oh, Taylor Swift
tracked.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I see what you did there A million dollar bill.
Taylor Swift tracked With theyouth.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
So one of the things that you know, looking at the
song that you guys were quotingGuilty as Sin in her newer song.
Someone pointed out that TaylorSwift, throughout her entire
career, has been longing tothrow caution to the wind, to
express herself, whether thatmeans self-satisfaction or
self-sabotage.
(35:18):
And Swift this is what they saySwift's speculation touch on a
deeply human dilemma what shouldwe do with our desires and what
do our desires do to us?
How does our desires shape whowe are?
Final quote from this articleshe longs for what she feels
(35:40):
internally to cohere with theexternal world, to be
consummated in relationships.
But desire cannot satisfy.
Human beings cannot live ondesire alone.
And that's the key here is that,ultimately, if you sit back and
you listen to Taylor Swiftsongs, she is singing expressive
(36:02):
individualism.
This is a phrase that we'veused on this podcast before.
The narrative of our day, thefalse gospel of our day, is look
inside of yourself, you be you,you do you and demand that the
world adjusts according to whoyou find in your own heart.
And the problem is is what hasthat led to for the life of
(36:24):
Taylor Swift?
In one ways, you can think well, she's like a multi-billionaire
, she's dating a star.
She's got all these fans andworshipers.
Or you can look at it as she'sa 30 something year old woman
still singing 15 year oldbreakup songs.
She's still singing songs thatultimately look inside of
herself and finds herself as theanti-hero and then tries to
(36:48):
celebrate that, tries to demandthe world accept her for who she
is.
And the beauty of the gospelcause.
Here's the thing.
I think those young girls, theylisten to that and they sense
all of their own insecurities,they sense all of their own
depravity.
And there's this like wow, canI just be depraved and accepted?
(37:09):
Can I demand the world acceptme for who I am?
But there's something so muchmore beautiful about the gospel,
and the gospel is this is thatGod, that you are known by God
so much more than you could everimagine and you are more fallen
than you could ever imagine.
But also, through the cross,you are more loved and forgiven
(37:35):
than you can ever possiblyimagine.
And one of the things thatultimately, like she actually
sings, you are what you love,which is augustinian of her,
because augustine pointed outaugustine, there you go.
Augustine pointed out thatultimately, we are primarily
loving creatures and that theproblem, the reason why we sin
is because we love the wrongthings at the wrong times, in
(37:58):
the wrong way.
And what the gospel does whengod changes our hearts is that
he reorders our loves to loveGod first and then to love our
neighbor as ourself, whereexpressive individualism would
be love yourself first and thendemand everybody loves you
second.
That's the gospel, that's thefalse gospel of expressive
(38:19):
individualism.
I think the gospel of, I thinkthe gospel we find in the
scriptures is so much better, somuch more freeing than letting
your desires rule your life.
Oh, that's great, oscar.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
I loved what you shared because, as you were
sharing it, I was envisioninglike a dad or a mom sitting down
with their child and explainingto them why it's not wise to
listen to Taylor Swift, why it'snot good because of the clash
of worldviews, you know, andwhat's drawing their hearts away
(38:52):
from the Lord toward idolizinga woman who's giving really a
non, you know, an unbiblical andanti-Christian worldview
message, you know, and I lovethat, because we have to have
that tenderness in us as we'reexplaining this, you know, and
we also have to remember that welove Taylor Swift.
You know, this is not a let'sbash Taylor Swift because we
(39:15):
can't stand her.
We're Christians, our heartshould be for every person and
look, taylor Swift might, shemight listen to this.
Who knows?
I mean we someone just likedone of my posts on Instagram
that has 2 million followers.
We've had, we've had athletesand, and you know, uh,
professional athletes and andand celebrities who've come in
contact with our, with ourmaterial, and so I hope she
(39:37):
would hear this and I hope shewould know that we love her and
care about her.
It's not just about warningpeople about her.
It's warning her to flee fromthe wrath to come and to come
into the arms of a Savior whocould truly transform her life,
the one who I think she has amisconception of and at some
point, maybe from the verybeginning, but had a twisted
perception of who he is and whatthe gospel is.
(40:01):
But, ray, I do want to say alsotoo and I like how you
highlighted that, oscar that itgoes beyond, just like the words
or the profanity, becausethere's more as well.
But that matters too, ray,right, because again, we have to
remember that this isentertainment, like.
There are times where I willforce myself to listen to some
(40:21):
profanity and something that I'mlistening to for a redemptive
purpose.
Maybe it's research for thepodcast, maybe it's I'm trying
to understand something, maybeit's a news story or whatever,
and I don't like it and itbothers me, but I can push
myself.
It's not for entertainment,it's not just for leisure and
pleasure.
But, ray, that's what somepeople are doing.
(40:42):
They're listening to her.
Drop the F-bomb, use thesefilthy words, the one that I
couldn't even repeat.
It's so bad that corrupts andit's contrary to God's word.
And out of the abundance of theheart, the mouth speaks and
every idle word that a manspeaks he'll give account for it
.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah, and Scripture says love, not the world,
neither the things that are inthe world.
If anyone loves the world, thelove of the Father is not in
them.
And so if you've got somethingyou love because it gives you
pleasure, but you know it's notpleasing to God, you're doing
something really bad.
You need a change of heart.
I love you know we get so usedto Psalm 23,.
The Lord is my shepherd, Ishall not want and we can jump
(41:16):
over what it's saying the Lordis my shepherd, I shall not want
.
That gnawing want for pleasure,which supersedes righteousness,
no longer attracts me.
I don't want that anymore,because God's changed my heart,
so I thirst after righteousness,and that's what these young
people need.
And parents, you may thinkthere's nothing wrong with
(41:37):
letting your kids listen tomusic that's founded in
rebellion against God, but whenthey rebel against you and
against God, then you're goingto look back and say where did
this poison come into ourChristian home?
And it'll trace it back to this.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yeah, and again, words have power.
Like a lot of people have thephilosophy of oh, it's just, I
don't listen to the lyrics, Ijust love the music.
That's hogwash.
The music is getting in yourheart and brain.
Do you ever find yourselfsinging the songs?
You're listening to the music,you're memorizing the lyrics and
replaying that again.
You know like again we'vetalked about it.
Someone may watch a movie,maybe once, twice, five times,
(42:08):
Maybe they're a fanatic 10, 20times, but a song you might
listen to a thousand times ormore over the course of your
lifetime and those messages getinto you.
They begin to impact yourthinking and your mind.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I can remember 40 years ago, scripture and song,
instant scripture, screeds of itcome back because it came in
the form of music scripture andsong, yeah, and that's what we
should be filling your head with.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, I mean they do that right.
They teach kids the alphabetwith a song.
I mean you can learn the namesof the states or presidents or
whatever and you can get itquicker.
There's something about musicin the human heart there's
stories of.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I was just reading the story recently of this guy
who had dementia and he had lostall of his memories.
An older man, but whenever thefamily would sing hymnals to him
, it was like he came back tolife in the midst of hearing
that song, isn't that?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
amazing.
I've heard stories like that.
It's universal, yeah.
And again, here's some of thecontent of some of the songs in
terms of blasphemy.
This is from a song calledFalse God, but we might just get
away with it.
Religion's in our lips.
Even if it's a false God, we'dstill worship.
We might just get away with it.
The altar is my hips.
Even if it's a false God, we'dstill worship this love.
(43:25):
We'd still worship this love.
I mean, that's some seriousstuff, right there.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You know.
I'm glad you gave a sort of ourversion of an explicit warning.
Yeah, you know, hopefully someparents will listen to this and
go.
Okay, I think in my situationnow I would like my kids to
listen to this, or here's toolsand resources for me to be able
to have a conversation.
Another aspect of this, too, isit's very clear here that Taylor
(43:50):
Swift is using religiousverbiage to talk about her
sexuality and religion.
I love the way someone put it.
They said the Christiantradition celebrates.
I love the way someone put itthey said the Christian
tradition celebrates fulfillmentof sexual desires see Song of
Songs but not as the ultimatehuman value or even as necessary
(44:11):
for human flourishing.
Consider Christ being a humanis so much more than either the
suppression or actualization ofsexual desire.
Christianity teaches thenecessity of self-denial.
That's the thing.
That's important is that thereare so many people out there
looking for identity, lookingfor value and looking for worth
(44:33):
in their sexuality and theirpolitics and consumerism.
And man, if you're listening tothis, you already know the road
that that takes you down.
It is a dead end, it makes youbankrupt and it makes you
longing for more.
There is no ultimatefulfillment found in sexual
(44:55):
desire.
The ultimate fulfillment thatyou are looking for is being
reconciled to your creatorthrough the death and
resurrection of Jesus.
Amen, amen.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Oscar, yeah and um, you know, and I think that for
you, parents that again arelistening and you want, you want
true understanding, withoutgoing searching.
I'll give you a few moreexamples.
This is from a song of herscalled guilty of sin.
What if I roll the stone away?
They're going to crucify meanyway.
What if the way you hold me isactually what's holy?
(45:27):
I mean man and again, and she's, you know all of her, a lot of
her songs she'll.
She'll talk about promiscuity,but in contrast to the Song of
Solomons that you referenced,oscar, that's talking about holy
, you know, sexual activitywithin the confines of marriage.
And a lot of what she andothers like to promote is
fornication or adulterous things.
(45:49):
And this is another song calledthe Prophecy, using references
to the Garden of Eden and thechanging of destiny.
He says I got crushed like Evegot bitten oh, was it punishment
?
And it continues change theprophecy.
Don't want money, just someonewho wants my company.
Let it once be me.
(46:10):
What do I have to speak toabout if they can redo the
prophecy?
Another one the album continueswith a song but Daddy, I Love
Him.
And this uses like rebellion,explicit language, describes two
female heroines of the faithnothing more than church gossips
.
And again, I got this from anarticle.
(46:31):
It says I just learned thesepeople only raise you to cage
you, sarah's and Hannah's intheir Sunday best clutching
their pearls, sighing.
What a mess.
I just learned these people tryand save you because they hate
you and maybe some of it is likeyou said, oscar, some of her
experiences and things like that.
(46:52):
But it just has that bent.
Someone on Facebook wrote thisis a worship leader named Sean
Fjot.
He said almost half the songsof Taylor Swift's new album
contain explicit lyrics, makefun of Christians and straight
up blaspheme God.
(47:12):
And so, yeah, I mean there'sjust so much.
I can go on and on withdifferent things.
This one here says God savedthe most judgmental creeps who
say they want what's best for me, sanctimoniously performing
soliloquies.
Oh Ray, you shared that onealready, I think, and it can
change the beat of my heart whenhe touches me and counteract
(47:35):
the chemistry and undo thedestiny.
You ain't got to pray for me,me and my wild boy and all of
this wild joy.
If all you want is gray for me,then it's just white noise and
it's just my choice.
And on the choice issue, againvery pro abortion and that sort
of thing.
So, anyway, we could go on andon, friends, but I think you get
(47:58):
the picture.
I think you understand wherewe're coming from on this.
We raised this.
There's a lot of differentartists we could talk about, of
course, but there is aphenomenon and it's going on and
a lot of Christians stillhaven't caught up with where
she's at, and so they're lettingtheir kids listen to this, and
maybe you're an adult who'slistening to her.
Our encouragement to you is toreally give this some thought
(48:21):
and examine your heart and askyourself does this honor the
Lord?
Is this glorifying to God?
Do I want to get these kinds ofthoughts in my heart and mind,
or do I want to go the extramile to guard myself?
And, like Ray said inPhilippians 4, right, whatever
things are.
Pure, true, lovely, good report.
These are the things we need tomeditate on, especially when it
(48:42):
comes to non-essentialentertainment.
There you have it, friends.
I didn't mention it at thebeginning, but I should Wait.
Oh, I did.
Was it Hell's Best Kept Secretbook?
Yes, that's right.
Or was that the other episode?
No, this was it.
Oh, was it?
We just didn't dot comment.
Yeah, that's right, we didn'tdot comment, so it?
(49:03):
Yeah, that's right, we didn'tdot comment, so make sure to
check it out.
Friends at Living Waters, wasthat kind of a little bark?
I don't know, that wassomething else.
Remember the Living Waters mug,the Evidence Study Bible?
Yeah, alllivingwaterscom.
And friends, don't forget,please, to subscribe and like.
Tell people about the podcastand podcast at livingwaterscom
with your thoughts.
We'll be reading some of thoseagain real soon.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
(49:24):
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast.
Was that you, ray, trying tomimic me?
Oh, it was too Nice try.
The one podcast you can't waitto turn off.
Please don't send us hate mailabout Taylor Swift.
She's still singing songs that ultimately look
inside of herself and findsherself as the anti-hero and
then tries to celebrate that,tries to demand the world accept
her for who she is.
And the beauty of the gospel.
Because here's the thing, Ithink those young girls, they
listen to that and they senseall of their own insecurities,
(00:21):
they sense all of their owndepravity and there's this like,
wow, can I just be depraved andaccepted?
Can I demand the world acceptme for who I am?
But there's something so muchmore beautiful about the gospel,
and the gospel is this is thatGod, that you are known by God
(00:43):
so much more than you could everimagine and you are more fallen
than you could ever imagine.
But also, through the cross, youare more loved and forgiven
than you can ever possiblyimagine and one of the things
that ultimately, like sheactually sings, you are what you
love, which is very Augustinianof her, because Augustine
(01:05):
pointed out Augustine, there yougo.
Augustine pointed out thatultimately, we are primarily
loving creatures and the problem, the reason why we sin, is
because we love the wrong thingsat the wrong times in the wrong
way.
And what the gospel does whenGod changes our hearts is that
he reorders our loves to loveGod first and then to love our
(01:27):
neighbor as ourself, whereexpressive individualism would
be love yourself first and thendemand everybody loves you
second.
That's the false gospel ofexpressive individualism.
I think the gospel we find inthe scriptures is so much better
, so much more freeing thanletting your desires rule your
(01:49):
life.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Friends, ray Comfort has taught me many things over
the course of my life.
He taught me how to the courseof my life, he taught me how to
hurt myself.
He's taught me how to breakthings.
He's taught me how toevangelize.
(02:17):
But most importantly, friends,ray Comfort has taught me a fact
of life, and that is the mostamount of times that a piece of
paper can be folded over is howmany times, ray.
Seven times Folded in half, itis Seven times.
And when I asked him thismorning just to confirm it, he
said, quote seven, yes, seven,maybe eight if you use tissue
(02:39):
the size of a football field,possibly.
So I know this is new news toOscar and he's already in
disbelief, but, oscar, I want tosee if we can prove whether or
not Ray is right or wrong.
Seven, I got to beat seven.
Yeah, you can't.
I actually think I have.
Wait, ray, are you sayingthat's a guarantee?
Yeah, you won't be able to doit more than seven times.
(03:00):
I have to fold this seven timesand more than seven times.
I have to fold this seven timesand half.
You can't fold it more thanseven is what he's saying,
that's one You'll do seven max.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
You won't even probably get to seven.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Okay, that's two.
Alright, let's see Oscar'sfolding skills.
Did you used to do?
What do they call that?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Origami.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Three Origami, that's three.
No, no, I'm at four.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
No, you're not.
No, you're not, let's step upthree Wait.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
One, two, three, four , Ah cheating Okay four.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Can we call you an origamist, Would that be?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
What is the Mexican?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
version of origami.
I got nothing.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Origamios.
So that's five.
Five, you're coming up to sixnext.
Six Max is seven you may noteven be able to do seven.
He can't do seven.
He's dropped on the floor totry and get rid of the thing.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Can you do seven?
I got seven.
Seven, Try eight.
Oscar Wow, Seven happened.
Ray Comfort was right.
Well, it's a well-known fact.
It's not mine.
So this is like.
This is gospel truth, now right.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, it's just never , never fall.
Okay, well, that was seven, andthen watch this.
Unfold and fold the other way.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Eight a nice try, oscar.
That was wow.
The lessons we learned from raycomfort thank you, it was
nothing yeah, now, ray, therewas this other thing that you
taught me years ago.
Um, it's this thing you do,where you can cut a piece of
paper, you fold it a certain wayand then it spells out the word
hell, oh, and then there's across.
Yes, it's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That thing is pretty cool, yeah, and it's a little
story that goes with it.
Have we ever thought of makinga track.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I think we did no, yes, we did seriously.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Many years ago I made a track telling people like
I've been here 21 years.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Must have been just before you got here.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Was it a flop?
Not really, just that not manypeople knew what it was.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Let's do it again, right?
All right, you know, there'ssomething else that blew my mind
this morning, and that's whatreminded me of this thing.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Ray, what happened to ?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
it.
Do I have a brain?
I saw these guys.
I think they were actually inindia.
Ray do a german accent put downthat gun never ceases to get me
.
Uh, but there were these indianguys, and they were actually
standing on each other'sshoulders.
Why?
(05:20):
Just for fun?
Just for fun, just for fun,because the shoulders were there
.
Guess how many of them werestacked up.
Well, we have to say, like fourno, balancing each other, no.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Just stack right on.
I'm going to say seven.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Seven.
Let's go, raise maximum number.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Oh, I see what you did there I see the connection.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
There's always a connection Dot com Too early.
Oh sorry, but it was seriouslyinsane to see these guys like on
each, but they kept gettingsmaller and smaller.
There was a little kid, yeahright, ray was at the top.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, thank you.
So the whole lot of themmounted to nine feet.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
No, it was pretty high, but they were shaking,
like all of them were shaking.
I'm like, if this keeps going,they're going to.
We should try that.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
So what was it?
A circus, or?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
something I don't know.
It was just like one of thosequick shorts that was like nine
seconds long, If the four of uswere going to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Who would be at the bottom?
What would the order?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
be Strongest, had to be at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
You'd be at the bottom, which would be me Of
course You'd be at the top.
Yeah, that would be.
We should do that One of those.
Should we Diamonds?
Should we do that?
It's the short guy that's gotthe most dangerous job.
The short guy's the contortion.
You see that, like some ofthese contortionists, that's
(06:48):
crazy.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
It's insane.
They can fold themselves morethan seven times.
Some of them.
I bet they could.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
This is true, but you know you really you look at
like even parkour, Like I don'teven understand that, Ray, you
know what parkour is?
No, it's those guys that jumplike off high buildings.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Oh, I've watched those.
Yeah, they're crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
But it's like, I guess, a science they've learned
where they crumple their bodyor they bend their legs.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I could almost do that in my youth.
I used to roll down the stairswhen I was a kid, deliberately.
That's what happened.
Deliberately, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
What?
What happened Deliberately?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, because now you do it on accident when you're
young, I used to jump over sixfoot fences with great energy
when you're about 11 orsomething like that, and you can
do things like that when you'rein your early teens.
I still jump fences.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
You do, I sure do.
Actually, no joke.
We were leaving something andwe were with a group of friends
and there was this fence thatwas meant to divide cars but not
people, and there was this tinylittle corridor where, like,
hundreds of people were pilingthrough and in my mind, I'm like
man, I don't what, like I neverwant to be too old where I
don't jump a fence, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And so I jumped the fence and I was very proud of
myself.
I feel the same way aboutroller coasters Seriously.
That's why I keep riding them,oscar.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yes, sir, same way about roller coasters, seriously
, that's why I keep riding them,oscar.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yes, sir, did you check what was on the other side
?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
of the fence.
It was a pit with crocodiles init.
Just jump a fence wherever,whatever.
Yeah consequences.
Yeah consequences.
Fences that kill you.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I did.
I pulled a Ray Comfort thismorning.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Oh, that's neat, that's wonderful, that's
terrific, is it, though?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I picked up a cup of coffee and I put it in my cup
holder in the center console ofmy car and I got to the office.
It was a full cup.
I hadn't drank any of it yetand I went to go pick it up and
it perfectly flipped over andpoured out in my cup holder,
which there's no, there's nocrack, so it just stayed there
(08:41):
in my cup holder.
Did you drink it, oscar?
I did what any reasonablecoffee drinker would do I got a
straw.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
No, so you're saying that the hot coffee permeated
the cardboard and made it soft,or something?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I think no, I re-comforted it.
I picked the cup up and it justlike flipped upside down and
poured out.
Oh, that's wonderful yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Oh, that's crazy, but no, you know, thinking of crazy
things, you do.
You really start realizing thatyou're aging when you can't do
things that you used to justlike, relish and love to do?
Well, I used to be able to putmy leg behind my head.
No, you did not.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I did.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I want a picture of you this morning I was thinking
about it, did you try it?
It didn't get like above myother calf when I was trying to
do it.
I'm like, okay, it's over.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I did a somersault about two years ago.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
No.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, I just thought I'd love to do it.
Then I spent about the next twominutes trying to get my head
together because everything wasspinning, which you don't get
when you're a little kid.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I turned 40 on Sunday and my family started.
We started talking we're allpretty competitive and they all
started telling me they can beatme in a race.
So we went outside and did 50yard dashes and I beat them all,
but I was so exhaustedafterwards yeah, I was so
exhausted, though.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, that's funny.
You said somersault, right?
I remember when my girls wereyoung and I'd say do a
somersault, do a somersault.
And one of my daughter' name isSummer, and one day Julia got
sad.
She goes.
I want to do a Julia somersault.
It was awesome.
But no, I used to be able totake my hand and my arm and take
(10:18):
it around.
I remember that Ow, you're notanymore that hurt.
I used to be able to bring itall the way around and grab the
earlobe on the other side.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
I remember you doing that.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You remember that right?
Yes, yeah, yeah, there's no.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Seriously Try it with the other hand.
Let me see.
I just want to see him do itagain.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I remember I used to be able to get up when I fell
down.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I fall and I can't get up.
Remember those.
No, but seriously, like youreally start realizing like this
is like it's our bodies change,but it frustrates me.
I am going to force myself tobe able to do that again because
I don't want to not be able todo something.
You feel the same way aboutthings.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
No, pain changes things.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
The pain of zw Zwayne .
I feel great.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I don't know what you guys are talking about.
Oscar, welcome to my 40s club.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I've only got a couple years left in this club.
Ray, do you wish you were 40again?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
No, Really no.
I wish I was about 17.
I'd stop at 40.
Yeah, I'd love to be able to goout surfing and be able to
breathe at the same time.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You really do take youth for granted, man.
Anyway, all right, friends,here's another cool, classy
comment, another card handed tome in person at that same Focal
Point banquet for our brother,mike Fabares.
This is from Frances Eng.
She said Dear Easy and Rachel.
Plug for my lovely wife who, bythe way, often gets very
(11:48):
frustrated because she'll beexercising, listening to the
podcast and we'll be talkingabout her and I'll be like I
don't know, throwing her underthe bus or something.
I can't defend myself.
She gets all frustrated, Ican't defend myself, all right,
anyway, this is from againFrances Ang.
She said Dear Easy and Rachel.
First, I thank my God throughJesus Christ for all of you,
(12:09):
because of your faith isproclaimed in all the world.
I first heard about Easy at theAdult Bible Fellowship at our
church, which is Compass greatchurch, compass Bible Church,
when you did the interview withPastor Kellen.
That led me to Living Watersand Rachel's Page, joyful
Mothers.
Plug for Rachel's Page, joyfulMothers.
It's got about 90,000 followers.
(12:31):
Wow, crazy.
My first episode was FindingCalm Amid your Busyness, or the
Busyness of Life.
That's the podcast.
That's what she means.
She came to the podcast.
That episode changed myperspective on something that
God planned, that God had beenteaching me and that was.
He understood that all the goodthings were not necessarily the
(12:52):
things he ought to do.
Kevin DeYoung, thatconversation really put it in
perspective.
The the reminders I needed whenI went about doing the things
in my daily life.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I know, I feel so bad .
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We often use your quotes in the episode in our
Thrive Marriage Group at Compassto stir each other up on toward
God's truth in many differentsubjects.
It's incredible how God causeswhat you guys do to encourage so
many probably far more peoplethan you will ever know, until
you reach heaven one day.
Wow, thank you so much.
(13:31):
It was really really a delightto meet you, francis.
You were a real blessing, andshe gave me a big bag of a bunch
of goodies for me and only me.
Anyway, thank you, francis, itwas a delight to meet you and
thank you for the encouragingcard.
Really, really a blessing.
All right, friends, time foranother radically revolutionary
resource Hell's best kept secretbook.
(13:56):
Ooh, we're plugging the booktoday.
Ray, you know I think the bookreally gets overlooked because
you have so many other books,but you know it's the sermon or
the video that's usuallymentioned.
But, ray, the book is good.
It's an overlooked book.
It's an overlooked book, anoverlooked, overcooked book.
We can call your cookbook anovercooked book, but Ray, how's?
(14:18):
The Skep Secret is a veryimportant message it used to be
called Poured Out for a ThirstyWorld.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Did you know that?
Yes, yeah, I did too.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Among your 30,000 other titles that you've tried.
On that book, we did try it,yeah, but get it, friends.
It's got a life-changingmessage.
And this is the expandededition with Study Guy.
And don't forget the LivingWaters mug and the Evidence
Study Bible.
All that Living Waters.
That's the old man painfulversion.
(14:49):
Good job, oscar, now thatyou're 40, you nailed it.
You nailed it.
All right, friends, enough ofthe silliness, more silliness.
Today we're talking about aChristian perspective on Taylor
Swift.
Ray, are you a Swifty?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
No, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
You know what a Swifty?
Is yes, I just had to be lustyif you're a Swifty yeah
following after Taylor Swiftfollowers, Now friends.
Are you guys ready for the hatemail?
Oh, I'm ready.
Let me tell you, and that'sexactly what I was about to say.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
But let me tell you I'm into some secular music.
I Let me tell you and that'sexactly what I was about to say,
but let me tell you I'm intosome secular music.
I absolutely love it.
So we're not saying you know,play organ music at home by
yourself.
We're saying you can have theliberty to listen to all sorts
of music.
Romans 14, 21, 22.
A being that condemns nothimself and that thing which he
allows and myself, and I know alot of my friends, and Scotty
(15:43):
included, absolutely loved theBeatles in the early days, when
their music was just so goodMakes me instantly remember
things that give me instantpleasure.
I love Katchaturian, who wasjust an amazing composer.
I love the Blue Danube, whichis secular, I don't know how it
goes.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah, no Bottom but bottom.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
No, no, hold on.
Let me tell you my firstintroduction to that song and I
thought it was like made for themovie.
But it was something way backwhen I was young.
It was with Jerry Lewis and itwas some song where he was
boxing or something, or a moviehe was boxing and it had that
tune.
He was like getting punched inthe face or punching someone or
something.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
There's also a song called it's a Time to Say
Goodbye, oh yeah.
It absolutely just gives me Isthat, taylor Swift.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
It's a time to say goodbye.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, he used to like that song yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
We were actually filming Las Vegas, one of our
programs, and the big fountainbehind us and I can't remember
what it is, but that famoushotel.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Bellagio, bellagio bellagio.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
They were playing that song and I just about
melted oh I remember that rightand I think maybe you or someone
.
That song gets me every time wedidn't know what it was and I
just had it in the back of mymind.
And then I heard it years laterand I found out the title and,
uh, went and listened to itbeing played.
So, yeah, there is secularmusic that is absolutely
phenomenal and it just makes youthink of the greatness of God,
makes you feel good.
(17:06):
And so we're not condemning allsecular music, we're just
saying there's some music that'swrapped in the world.
We shouldn't even have toaddress this.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Right, yeah, and I think that you know.
I'm glad you made that point,ray.
You know, we really try to becautious in what we say when it
comes to convictions.
We all have differentconvictions, you know.
My wife and I we've hadconviction for years that we
mainly listen, you know, toChristian music, and it's not
(17:35):
because secular music is sinful,but we just made that decision
based on, you know, our sense ofwhat we wanted to fill our
hearts and minds with what wewanted to recall, right, conver.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I had.
One of my greatest joys isdriving back with you after we
did some filming and playingneil diamonds music to you for
the first time and you got toappreciate some of that.
Oh yeah, I'd never.
Yeah, I never really listenedto it, it was just make sure,
did you repent?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
um well, I'm still doing penance, okay over that,
I've got 30 lashes.
Yeah, I realized I had a neildiamond shaped hole in my heart
with diamonds, uh, yeah yeah, somy point is that look we all
have different convictions andagain, ours is not extreme.
It's not like we could neverlisten to a second song, or it's
not like we never say, oh, whatwas that song, I want to hear
(18:15):
it, or whatever.
But just as the norm, we listento mainly Christian music, you
know.
But others have differentconvictions and that's what I
love about the differencebetween us.
And, by the way, friends, markis not with us today.
It's just the three of us, soyou're going to have to do
without Mark's extraordinarywisdom, but I love the fact.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
He's at a Taylor.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Swift conference.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
That's where.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Mark is.
He's a Swifty, but I love thefact that do have different
convictions on things that arenot consequential, and that
there is that latitude withinthe faith.
I love that because ifeveryone's the same, you should
be concerned.
You have some cultic elementgoing on there.
If every single thing isexactly the same, I think the
(19:01):
main no one is the same as you.
Thank God for that.
But it's good that we examinethe foundation of things like,
hey, is this dishonoring to theLord, Is this blasphemous, Is
this grieving the Spirit?
And just to have those broadprinciples when we examine our
(19:23):
convictions and then to eachgive one another that latitude.
But I think there are certainthings that we need to step back
and look at and say, hey, isthis something that is healthy?
Is it good, Is it wise?
And to challenge each other.
You might land in a differentplace on your convictions, but
at least let's sharpen eachother and be humble enough to
listen.
But, Oscar, you said hate mail,and for good reason, because
(19:46):
and that's why we're dealingwith this today because there's
this phenomenon surroundingTaylor Swift that is one of the
most bizarre things I've everseen.
I mean, it's almost beyond likea Beatle type mania in that
there's this like crazy loyaldevotion.
I mean someone could say, ohyeah, I don't really like the
Beatles hair.
Someone would say, oh okay,whatever, but like anything-.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
You're making me mad.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, Anything anyone says about Taylor Swift, oh,
you're dead.
Basically.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I heard a pundit.
They were about to saysomething.
I don't even know if it wassuper critical, but they were
just gonna make a critique.
I think the critique was simplythat they're not a fan of
Taylor Swift and right beforethey said it they paused and
they're like please, guys, Ihave a family.
Like just knowing the TaylorSwift like phenomenon that is
behind it.
But that gets into.
(20:35):
You know somebody, somebodyfrom Medium, wrote an article
titled Take Me to Church theReligious Experience of a
Concert, and it reminded me of abook that I read years ago
called Strange Rites, in whichthe author made an argument that
we have these desires forliturgy and religious experience
, that even when people areliving in a totally secular
(20:58):
world, they're not thinkinganything of God, they're still
act because they are made.
We are all made to worship.
Right, that's somethingfoundational that the scriptures
teach us as image bearers.
We are made to worship God andthere's never a moment where an
individual is not worshiping.
The question isn't whether ornot somebody is worshiping.
(21:20):
The question is, what are youworshiping?
And so for many in the secularworld, the concert going, music
festival experience is a form ofa religious experience.
As they go off and buy ticketsand travel to locations, it's
often like a pilgrimage whenthey gather and they talk to
(21:41):
other people that they've nevermet before about the music, the
exchange, mythological.
You know who is this song about?
Was it about this ex-boyfriendor that ex-boyfriend?
When you get in front of thatstage and you lift your voices
and you sing together.
The author of Strange Ritespointed out.
When we sing communally theauthor of Strange Rites pointed
out when we sing communally,what we're actually doing is
(22:04):
affirming truths in the heartsof the people around us.
And so when I stand and I singall glory be to Christ, my voice
to me matters less than thevoices I hear around me.
They're infusing truth into myheart when they my congregation
is singing all glory be toChrist and I'm in that
(22:25):
congregation.
So when you go to a concert nomatter whose concert, and
everybody lifts their voices andsings together, we are infusing
some narrative into our hearts.
In other words, why is therethis fanatic adoration,
(22:45):
protection of Taylor Swift, ofwhat it does?
It's not just her, sometimesit's other figures as well.
It's because it is, it's a formof, like this religious
experience to follow to, to goto the concert.
It's a, it's a liturgy and weprotect.
We protect the things that welove.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Wow, that's so, so true, oscar, and well put.
And you know and again I lovewhat you had said right, like
music, it has, you know, certainelements in it and resonates
with the heart.
And that's why there's somesongs that are beautiful.
They're not crass, they don'thave profanity in them, they're
not based in humanisticphilosophy, they're about, you
know, about love or beauty orwhatever.
(23:20):
But then it drifts into otherareas and that's what we're
going to talk about.
But, ray, music is powerful.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Very powerful, especially lyrics.
They carry a message Super Bowl, you'll pay millions of dollars
just to have 30 seconds intosomeone's brain.
Why would they do that?
Because they know we can beinfluenced so easily.
So lyrics and music can eithersend us to the glory of God or
somewhere else.
I remember years ago when I wasin drug prevention work I may
(23:51):
have mentioned this before, Idon't know, tell me if I have
where I studied the lyrics ofsome rock groups and I was
horrified, like the DeadKennedys, a very popular group
years ago.
The lyrics of one of theirwholesome songs was I kill
children.
I love to watch them die, killchildren, make their mums cry,
crush them under my car.
I love to hear them scream,feed them poison candy, spoil
(24:12):
their halloween.
Wow, that song.
That's one of their songs.
And so I I went to the media andI says I want to put some
advertisements on television, um, warning parents about the
lyrics of some heavy metal rockmusic because they're so bad.
I told them and they said okay,and they let me do it because
of my high profile in the drugprevention center in the city
and across the nation in thosedays.
(24:33):
So I said okay, but they saidyou can't quote the lyrics
because you're violatingcopyright, and so I couldn't do
anything.
Anyway, I went ahead and madethe advertisements and just said
please read the lyrics of yourkids, what they're listening to,
because some of them are reallybad.
And then I was sitting in my carjust after they were broadcast
and I thought this is going tomake some people really mad, and
(24:53):
a guy walked right in front ofmy car.
He turned around and stared atme really intently.
Then he came around to thedriver's side and really
intently.
Then he came around to thedriver's side and I wound down
the window and he got his fist,pulled it back and threw $20
into my lap and he walked off.
And so I'll never forget that,that experience.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
But, yeah, taylor Swift's lyrics, her latest album
, which is called Tortured PoetsDepartment, and by the way, Ray
, if I can give a disclaimer forany parents that are listening
now, this is a little disclaimer.
We know a lot of youngsterslisten to this podcast, actually
, which is such a blessing to usbut you need to discern right
now if you may want to pause thepodcast or have your kids go in
(25:34):
the other room or whatever,because we are going to read
some lyrics.
We're not going to say thefilthy words, but we're going to
maybe say the letter they startwith.
But it's important again foryou to hear these things as
parents, because we know thereare some of you that are
listening and your kids listento Taylor Swift and maybe
innocently.
So, right, you haven't reallylistened to the music, you don't
know the nuances of what she'ssaying in some of her even more
(25:55):
recent songs and even some ofthe past.
So we just want to give thatdisclaimer.
I'm going on a little bit togive you time to get your kids
out of the room or to pause thisPerhaps you could sing just for
30 seconds.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Whoa, who just hit, play on the Taylor Swift album
All right right.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, and it's not just her immodesty, because
she's incredibly immodest whenit comes to her gestures on
stage, relatively immodest whenit comes to her gestures on
stage, but uh, and the torturedpoets department track to who's
going to hold you?
Hold you like me?
Nobody.
No, f body, nobody.
This is Taylor Swift, someonewho professes to be a Christian.
God gave um, god saved the mostjudgmental creeps who say they
(26:37):
want what's best for me,sanctimoniously performing
soliloquies.
I'll never see she'spro-abortion very strongly.
She came back.
Sorry, she said in one of thelyrics.
This is the second track.
We came back when the heat dieddown, went to my parents and
they came around.
All the wine mums are stillholding out, but F and she says
(27:01):
the word M, it's over, wow.
So this is.
There should be no argument.
Just don't listen to TaylorSwift.
It's of the world, it'shorrible.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know it's interesting,oscar, what you said earlier
about that man who said man, Ihave a family.
But yeah, I mean, I was at aChristian in a Christian setting
and there were young people andI brought up Taylor Swift
because it's like you almosthave to these days because it's
such a weird little cultfollowing and you could just see
(27:32):
some of the girls squirming andsome of the guys started Did
you get beat up Pretty muchclose to it?
But some of the guys startedlooking at the girls and like
kind of snickering, like ohcause.
I said, look, and I know I knowyou guys are going to hate me
for this, but let me be honestwith you and it was like you
could just tell, like so.
So there is this, this thingthat's going on, and there is
this image, I think still heldby some parents, that she's just
(27:55):
a squeaky, clean, nice,innocent, you know, woman and
that's just not the case.
Maybe there was a time, wayback when Well, she's in her
thirties now, yeah, but way backwhen she was young.
I mean, she was, she was astart like 18, 19.
I think she was really youngand sweet, christian Beck.
Yeah, and that's how it alwaysstarts with a lot of these
musicians.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
With Elvis.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, but but, oscar, do you think these days, like
there's almost an intentionalagenda by their labels or their
publicists to like get them todo?
Because it's like almosteveryone remember Britney Spears
shaved her head and starteddoing these crazy things.
Justin Bieber, he started, likeyou know, doing crazy stuff
with his car getting arrested.
(28:34):
And Madonna she was weird.
Yeah, madonna, I mean all theseit like seems like they start
doing something, maybe to getmore accepted and edgy with the
older kids, or what do you think?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a great model if
you're looking at it, If I'mlooking at it from like a
secular marketing perspective.
So I don't even wanna talkconspiracy theory.
Let me just look at, let me putmy marketing hat on here and
put it like this Like if I canget you to listen to somebody,
if I throw cuss lyrics, if it'svulgar right at the front, that
(29:08):
immediately cuts out a massaudience, right, which is
younger generations or parentsthat are concerned about that.
But if the first pieces ofproduct that I put out there are
squeaky clean, they sound moreconservative in nature, they're
about silly things, you know, etcetera, et cetera, then I
capture a particular audience.
(29:30):
And once you get a loyal thequote is the important thing is
once you get a loyal fan base,that fan base will I'm using air
quotes mature alongside of you.
You will go from PG to PG-13 tomature audience only Because
you're connected to thepersonality, right, that's
exactly right, and so I thinkyou know I don't need to be, I
(29:52):
don't need to spin a conspiracytheory here.
I would just tell you if I'm arecord label thinking about
marketing the next 18 year oldyeah, the first few albums.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I'm gonna want it to be super squeaky clean.
And then after that, we broughtin our horizons a bit.
Wow, well, let me read thisfrom billboardcom this is this
actually surprised me.
Who's the guy, bill?
But he was bored, yeah, so hestarted a website, dot com.
Um, yeah, oh, I didn't even.
I didn't even do the resourceof the day.
Wow, we'll have to get back tothat awkward.
Awkward because you said dotcom and it reminded me.
Um, yeah, so the lord saystaylor.
(30:31):
Swift has always been explicitin her songs, delivering crystal
clear messages with uberspecific details, and in the
last five years, she's also beenexplicit in the parental
advisory definition of the word,meaning she's now comfortable
dropping an F-bomb here andthere.
When Swift released her sixthstudio album, reputation, in
2017, her return to music afterthree years was a triumphant one
(30:53):
, as she took control of her ownnarrative and cemented her
transformation from America'ssweetheart to proudly feminist
idol.
And her declaration in thealbum cut I did something bad
that if a man asks SH, then Iowe him nothing formally marked
her drive into the world of cusswords With Lover in 2019 came
(31:14):
the line.
I'd be a B-I-T-C-H, not aballer from the man.
But Swift's first explicitlyexplicit track did not arrive
until her pandemic era 2020sisters album, folklore and
evermore, opening the formerwith the line I'm doing good,
I'm on the new sh was just thestart.
(31:36):
Iconic lyrics like what a shameshe effed in the head.
She's effed in the head, theysaid, follow shortly after On
her 10th studio set, midnight's.
The lyrics have become morecolorful than ever.
The 13-track project includessix explicit songs with the
curse words ranging from hell toFN to one we surely did not
(31:56):
have on our bingo card, and Iwon't even do this one because
it's so bad.
So guys.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
It's interesting how the world describes these that
colorful.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, no, it's filthy , yeah, colorful.
You know she's getting edgyshe's.
But, christian, listen, this iswhat your kids, if they're
listening to her, are listeningto.
This is what you're paying forwhen you're sending them to her
concert, when she's gyrating onstage, dressed very sensually,
(32:32):
using curse words, and now she'sdrifting into directly
blaspheming God.
And this is where the concernagain heightens even more
Witchcraft and things like that,what's that Witchcraft?
Yeah, yeah, and we'll get intosome of those here.
But, ray, some people like havethis mindset of what's the big
deal?
(32:52):
My kids are going to hear cusswords all around in society
anyway, so it's fine.
Why make a big deal out of?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
it.
Yeah, what book are you reading?
You know you're reading thescriptures.
You say whatsoever.
Things are pure of good report.
Think on these things.
Where's your fear of God?
You know God says be carefulwhat comes out of your mouth, be
careful what's in your heart.
And so if you've got that sortof attitude, how do you know
you're saved?
Why do you take the labelChristian if you're not prepared
to live up?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
You know, I wanna.
I think it's.
I love the important reality oflooking at the curse words and
that being a reason to stoplistening.
I think another way ofapproaching this, too, is what
is the story that is being told?
What's the narrative?
We are narrative drivencreatures.
(33:42):
We tell stories.
It is in our nature and we cometo understand truth about
ourselves and the world aroundus through story.
God reveals himself through astory.
The Bible isn't just a bunch ofone-liners for us to get to know
God.
It is the story of Godreconciling the world to himself
.
It is in our nature to come tounderstand things about
(34:04):
ourselves and the world throughstory, and so it's beyond the
language, right, the foullanguage, and it's more to me
about what is the story thatshe's saying, and one of the
things that I try to do in theway that I interact with culture
and I borrow this from Acts 17,which is Paul he listens to the
(34:25):
poets of the age and he findsareas in which they may be
longing for God or he findsareas in which they are
contradicting the better story,the greater story of God
reconciling the world to himself.
And so when you look at like, Itry to look at Taylor Swift
through that lens, and it'sYou're suggesting in Taylor
(34:46):
Swift tracked.
Well, actually I'm gonnareference oh, Taylor Swift
tracked.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I see what you did there A million dollar bill.
Taylor Swift tracked With theyouth.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
So one of the things that you know, looking at the
song that you guys were quotingGuilty as Sin in her newer song.
Someone pointed out that TaylorSwift, throughout her entire
career, has been longing tothrow caution to the wind, to
express herself, whether thatmeans self-satisfaction or
self-sabotage.
(35:18):
And Swift this is what they saySwift's speculation touch on a
deeply human dilemma what shouldwe do with our desires and what
do our desires do to us?
How does our desires shape whowe are?
Final quote from this articleshe longs for what she feels
(35:40):
internally to cohere with theexternal world, to be
consummated in relationships.
But desire cannot satisfy.
Human beings cannot live ondesire alone.
And that's the key here is that,ultimately, if you sit back and
you listen to Taylor Swiftsongs, she is singing expressive
(36:02):
individualism.
This is a phrase that we'veused on this podcast before.
The narrative of our day, thefalse gospel of our day, is look
inside of yourself, you be you,you do you and demand that the
world adjusts according to whoyou find in your own heart.
And the problem is is what hasthat led to for the life of
(36:24):
Taylor Swift?
In one ways, you can think well, she's like a multi-billionaire
, she's dating a star.
She's got all these fans andworshipers.
Or you can look at it as she'sa 30 something year old woman
still singing 15 year oldbreakup songs.
She's still singing songs thatultimately look inside of
herself and finds herself as theanti-hero and then tries to
(36:48):
celebrate that, tries to demandthe world accept her for who she
is.
And the beauty of the gospelcause.
Here's the thing.
I think those young girls, theylisten to that and they sense
all of their own insecurities,they sense all of their own
depravity.
And there's this like wow, canI just be depraved and accepted?
(37:09):
Can I demand the world acceptme for who I am?
But there's something so muchmore beautiful about the gospel,
and the gospel is this is thatGod, that you are known by God
so much more than you could everimagine and you are more fallen
than you could ever imagine.
But also, through the cross,you are more loved and forgiven
(37:35):
than you can ever possiblyimagine.
And one of the things thatultimately, like she actually
sings, you are what you love,which is augustinian of her,
because augustine pointed outaugustine, there you go.
Augustine pointed out thatultimately, we are primarily
loving creatures and that theproblem, the reason why we sin
is because we love the wrongthings at the wrong times, in
(37:58):
the wrong way.
And what the gospel does whengod changes our hearts is that
he reorders our loves to loveGod first and then to love our
neighbor as ourself, whereexpressive individualism would
be love yourself first and thendemand everybody loves you
second.
That's the gospel, that's thefalse gospel of expressive
(38:19):
individualism.
I think the gospel of, I thinkthe gospel we find in the
scriptures is so much better, somuch more freeing than letting
your desires rule your life.
Oh, that's great, oscar.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
I loved what you shared because, as you were
sharing it, I was envisioninglike a dad or a mom sitting down
with their child and explainingto them why it's not wise to
listen to Taylor Swift, why it'snot good because of the clash
of worldviews, you know, andwhat's drawing their hearts away
(38:52):
from the Lord toward idolizinga woman who's giving really a
non, you know, an unbiblical andanti-Christian worldview
message, you know, and I lovethat, because we have to have
that tenderness in us as we'reexplaining this, you know, and
we also have to remember that welove Taylor Swift.
You know, this is not a let'sbash Taylor Swift because we
(39:15):
can't stand her.
We're Christians, our heartshould be for every person and
look, taylor Swift might, shemight listen to this.
Who knows?
I mean we someone just likedone of my posts on Instagram
that has 2 million followers.
We've had, we've had athletesand, and you know, uh,
professional athletes and andand celebrities who've come in
contact with our, with ourmaterial, and so I hope she
(39:37):
would hear this and I hope shewould know that we love her and
care about her.
It's not just about warningpeople about her.
It's warning her to flee fromthe wrath to come and to come
into the arms of a Savior whocould truly transform her life,
the one who I think she has amisconception of and at some
point, maybe from the verybeginning, but had a twisted
perception of who he is and whatthe gospel is.
(40:01):
But, ray, I do want to say alsotoo and I like how you
highlighted that, oscar that itgoes beyond, just like the words
or the profanity, becausethere's more as well.
But that matters too, ray,right, because again, we have to
remember that this isentertainment, like.
There are times where I willforce myself to listen to some
(40:21):
profanity and something that I'mlistening to for a redemptive
purpose.
Maybe it's research for thepodcast, maybe it's I'm trying
to understand something, maybeit's a news story or whatever,
and I don't like it and itbothers me, but I can push
myself.
It's not for entertainment,it's not just for leisure and
pleasure.
But, ray, that's what somepeople are doing.
(40:42):
They're listening to her.
Drop the F-bomb, use thesefilthy words, the one that I
couldn't even repeat.
It's so bad that corrupts andit's contrary to God's word.
And out of the abundance of theheart, the mouth speaks and
every idle word that a manspeaks he'll give account for it
.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah, and Scripture says love, not the world,
neither the things that are inthe world.
If anyone loves the world, thelove of the Father is not in
them.
And so if you've got somethingyou love because it gives you
pleasure, but you know it's notpleasing to God, you're doing
something really bad.
You need a change of heart.
I love you know we get so usedto Psalm 23,.
The Lord is my shepherd, Ishall not want and we can jump
(41:16):
over what it's saying the Lordis my shepherd, I shall not want
.
That gnawing want for pleasure,which supersedes righteousness,
no longer attracts me.
I don't want that anymore,because God's changed my heart,
so I thirst after righteousness,and that's what these young
people need.
And parents, you may thinkthere's nothing wrong with
(41:37):
letting your kids listen tomusic that's founded in
rebellion against God, but whenthey rebel against you and
against God, then you're goingto look back and say where did
this poison come into ourChristian home?
And it'll trace it back to this.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yeah, and again, words have power.
Like a lot of people have thephilosophy of oh, it's just, I
don't listen to the lyrics, Ijust love the music.
That's hogwash.
The music is getting in yourheart and brain.
Do you ever find yourselfsinging the songs?
You're listening to the music,you're memorizing the lyrics and
replaying that again.
You know like again we'vetalked about it.
Someone may watch a movie,maybe once, twice, five times,
(42:08):
Maybe they're a fanatic 10, 20times, but a song you might
listen to a thousand times ormore over the course of your
lifetime and those messages getinto you.
They begin to impact yourthinking and your mind.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I can remember 40 years ago, scripture and song,
instant scripture, screeds of itcome back because it came in
the form of music scripture andsong, yeah, and that's what we
should be filling your head with.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, I mean they do that right.
They teach kids the alphabetwith a song.
I mean you can learn the namesof the states or presidents or
whatever and you can get itquicker.
There's something about musicin the human heart there's
stories of.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I was just reading the story recently of this guy
who had dementia and he had lostall of his memories.
An older man, but whenever thefamily would sing hymnals to him
, it was like he came back tolife in the midst of hearing
that song, isn't that?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
amazing.
I've heard stories like that.
It's universal, yeah.
And again, here's some of thecontent of some of the songs in
terms of blasphemy.
This is from a song calledFalse God, but we might just get
away with it.
Religion's in our lips.
Even if it's a false God, we'dstill worship.
We might just get away with it.
The altar is my hips.
Even if it's a false God, we'dstill worship this love.
(43:25):
We'd still worship this love.
I mean, that's some seriousstuff, right there.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You know.
I'm glad you gave a sort of ourversion of an explicit warning.
Yeah, you know, hopefully someparents will listen to this and
go.
Okay, I think in my situationnow I would like my kids to
listen to this, or here's toolsand resources for me to be able
to have a conversation.
Another aspect of this, too, isit's very clear here that Taylor
(43:50):
Swift is using religiousverbiage to talk about her
sexuality and religion.
I love the way someone put it.
They said the Christiantradition celebrates.
I love the way someone put itthey said the Christian
tradition celebrates fulfillmentof sexual desires see Song of
Songs but not as the ultimatehuman value or even as necessary
(44:11):
for human flourishing.
Consider Christ being a humanis so much more than either the
suppression or actualization ofsexual desire.
Christianity teaches thenecessity of self-denial.
That's the thing.
That's important is that thereare so many people out there
looking for identity, lookingfor value and looking for worth
(44:33):
in their sexuality and theirpolitics and consumerism.
And man, if you're listening tothis, you already know the road
that that takes you down.
It is a dead end, it makes youbankrupt and it makes you
longing for more.
There is no ultimatefulfillment found in sexual
(44:55):
desire.
The ultimate fulfillment thatyou are looking for is being
reconciled to your creatorthrough the death and
resurrection of Jesus.
Amen, amen.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Oscar, yeah and um, you know, and I think that for
you, parents that again arelistening and you want, you want
true understanding, withoutgoing searching.
I'll give you a few moreexamples.
This is from a song of herscalled guilty of sin.
What if I roll the stone away?
They're going to crucify meanyway.
What if the way you hold me isactually what's holy?
(45:27):
I mean man and again, and she's, you know all of her, a lot of
her songs she'll.
She'll talk about promiscuity,but in contrast to the Song of
Solomons that you referenced,oscar, that's talking about holy
, you know, sexual activitywithin the confines of marriage.
And a lot of what she andothers like to promote is
fornication or adulterous things.
(45:49):
And this is another song calledthe Prophecy, using references
to the Garden of Eden and thechanging of destiny.
He says I got crushed like Evegot bitten oh, was it punishment
?
And it continues change theprophecy.
Don't want money, just someonewho wants my company.
Let it once be me.
(46:10):
What do I have to speak toabout if they can redo the
prophecy?
Another one the album continueswith a song but Daddy, I Love
Him.
And this uses like rebellion,explicit language, describes two
female heroines of the faithnothing more than church gossips
.
And again, I got this from anarticle.
(46:31):
It says I just learned thesepeople only raise you to cage
you, sarah's and Hannah's intheir Sunday best clutching
their pearls, sighing.
What a mess.
I just learned these people tryand save you because they hate
you and maybe some of it is likeyou said, oscar, some of her
experiences and things like that.
(46:52):
But it just has that bent.
Someone on Facebook wrote thisis a worship leader named Sean
Fjot.
He said almost half the songsof Taylor Swift's new album
contain explicit lyrics, makefun of Christians and straight
up blaspheme God.
(47:12):
And so, yeah, I mean there'sjust so much.
I can go on and on withdifferent things.
This one here says God savedthe most judgmental creeps who
say they want what's best for me, sanctimoniously performing
soliloquies.
Oh Ray, you shared that onealready, I think, and it can
change the beat of my heart whenhe touches me and counteract
(47:35):
the chemistry and undo thedestiny.
You ain't got to pray for me,me and my wild boy and all of
this wild joy.
If all you want is gray for me,then it's just white noise and
it's just my choice.
And on the choice issue, againvery pro abortion and that sort
of thing.
So, anyway, we could go on andon, friends, but I think you get
(47:58):
the picture.
I think you understand wherewe're coming from on this.
We raised this.
There's a lot of differentartists we could talk about, of
course, but there is aphenomenon and it's going on and
a lot of Christians stillhaven't caught up with where
she's at, and so they're lettingtheir kids listen to this, and
maybe you're an adult who'slistening to her.
Our encouragement to you is toreally give this some thought
(48:21):
and examine your heart and askyourself does this honor the
Lord?
Is this glorifying to God?
Do I want to get these kinds ofthoughts in my heart and mind,
or do I want to go the extramile to guard myself?
And, like Ray said inPhilippians 4, right, whatever
things are.
Pure, true, lovely, good report.
These are the things we need tomeditate on, especially when it
(48:42):
comes to non-essentialentertainment.
There you have it, friends.
I didn't mention it at thebeginning, but I should Wait.
Oh, I did.
Was it Hell's Best Kept Secretbook?
Yes, that's right.
Or was that the other episode?
No, this was it.
Oh, was it?
We just didn't dot comment.
Yeah, that's right, we didn'tdot comment, so it?
(49:03):
Yeah, that's right, we didn'tdot comment, so make sure to
check it out.
Friends at Living Waters, wasthat kind of a little bark?
I don't know, that wassomething else.
Remember the Living Waters mug,the Evidence Study Bible?
Yeah, alllivingwaterscom.
And friends, don't forget,please, to subscribe and like.
Tell people about the podcastand podcast at livingwaterscom
with your thoughts.
We'll be reading some of thoseagain real soon.
Thank you for joining us,friends.
(49:24):
We'll see you here next time onthe Living Waters podcast.
Was that you, ray, trying tomimic me?
Oh, it was too Nice try.
The one podcast you can't waitto turn off.
Please don't send us hate mailabout Taylor Swift.
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