September 28, 2023 • 49 mins
The Middle with Jeremy Hobson launches as a weekly live call in show and podcast from Jeremy's hometown of Urbana, Illinois. He's joined by former Illinois governor Jim Edgar, a moderate Republican with a reputation for bipartisanship, and Cynthia Wang, an expert on conflict resolution at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson Live this evening
from Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, my hometown and
at the station where I got my career started when
I was a kid. It is great to have you
here with us for our new weekly show.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
If you listen to our pilot episodes last year, you
might remember that we do things a little differently here
at the Middle. First of all, we have a house DJ,
and just like in Bewitched when they changed Darren's, we
have a new DJ now with our thanks to the
great Anthony valade As. Our new DJ is Tolliver Tlliver.
It's great to have you here.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Hey, Anthony, I love you, but it is my time
to shine, you know. Great to be here, Jeremy like
you obviously. I'm from the land of Lincoln, Illinois, from
the South side of Chicago. I'm a funk singer, a journalist,
the first and probably only funk journalist in the world.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Something much needed in our media. And by the way,
I hope I didn't like age myself with that Darren
Bewitched reference. I believe me. I was watching it on
Nick at night, not in the original. The goal of
this show is to elevate the voices of people in
the middle. And of course that means the geographic middle
of the country, which is one reason we wanted this
show to be live across the Central and Mountain time zones.
(01:15):
But it also means the political middle, the philosophical middle,
the middle class, people who want to meet in the middle,
all things that we could use more of in our media.
We want to create an environment where people can have
conversations about divisive issues in a civil, respectful way. And
I hope that we can talk through some of the
things that in recent years a lot of people just
decided they didn't want to talk about. So I asked
(01:37):
that we have these conversations without condescension, with respect for
one another. I want this to be a civil conversation,
even when we disagree. So here's our topic. In the
next hour, we're going to be asking this simple question,
in a time of divisive politics, how do you talk
to someone you disagree with? Tolliver, can you give us
the phone number?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Absolutely, just call eight four four four Middle that's eight
four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And while you make that call, if you want to
join the conversation. Let's meet our panel guests. Joining me
from Springfield, Illinois is Jim Edgar, who was a popular
two term Republican governor of Illinois throughout the nineteen nineties. Governor,
Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Good to be with you, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And you're a moderate Republican. You had a reputation for
working across party lines to get things done. In fact,
you were re elected I believe, with one hundred and
one out of one hundred and two counties in blue Illinois.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
How did you do it?
Speaker 5 (02:30):
And I want to I want to point out it.
I carried Cook County that wasn't the one that you
didn't carry.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Lil County in southern Illinois.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
I lost by three votes and I'm still mad about that.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Well, but just briefly, to get us started here, how
do you work across party lines? Why is that important
to you?
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Well, it's important because you want to get things done.
I mean, I you know politicians everybody said, oh they
worried about is getting reelected. Well, you want to get
re elected, but you want to do something while you're there.
If you don't, you made a big mistake, because that's
not a profession. If you don't want to get something done.
It's the money's not that good and the hours are
lousy and people are mad at you all the time.
(03:07):
So to get something done, it's basically for a Republican
in Illinois, you have to reach across the aisle. You
have to work with Democrats. Illinois is a very diverse
state and there are all kinds of points of view
and you've got to respect those points of view and
work with them. You're not always are going to agree,
but I do think if you treat people with civility
(03:31):
and you get to know them personally, you can get
a lot more done. And so's that to me is
why you know I wanted to get things done. And
I have to say, you set aside the political affiliation.
There isn't all that much difference. A lot of very
conservative Republicans and very liberal Democrats have a lot of
common interest in things. So you try to build off that.
(03:55):
You try to find out where you agree before you get.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Involved in the things you did agree on.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
All right, Well, let's meet our other guest, Cynthia Wang,
who is executive director of the Dispute Resolution and Research
Center at Northwestern University. She's also president of the International
Association for Conflict Management, Doctor Wang.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
Welcome to you, Hi Jeremy, nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
It's great to have you. And you've done a lot
of research on conflict resolution, both here in the United
States and in Taiwan. If you had to name one
key ingredient in successful communication when people disagree, what would
it be.
Speaker 6 (04:25):
Oh? Yeah, I think it's just taking a step back,
not viewing it as a battle, but instead, hey, let's
look at this, what do we want to get done
in this particular situation. And in those types of situation,
disagreement can be really, really useful. You make better decisions
if you can actually talk through things and think through things.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 6 (04:44):
I mean if you think about it right, If you're
just talking about one perspective and you only have one
perspective and you don't go beyond that, you're not going
to get the full picture. You're only going to get
half the picture, a quarter of the picture. But if
we can start actually vocalizing things and actually listening to
different perspectives and integrating them into our decision making, than
things are better. It's something I teach my students all
(05:06):
the time at Northwestern.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Our number, by the way is eight four four four
middle that is eight four four four six four three
three five three. We're gonna go to the phones in
just a minute. But Governor Edgar, I want to go
back to you because for about ten years you've been
gathering politicians from across the political spectrum, rising stars but
early in their professions, and you teach them how to
work together.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Well we yeah, our program is basically we do a
lot of things, but really the bottom line is I
want them to get to know each other and to
have an understanding. One of the things I do that
when I first did to everybody just looked at me.
I make them change seats every day. They got to
sit by different people. Then I start out with a question,
(05:49):
what's your favorite book? Look to the guy next to
you and tell him what's your favorite book. It's just
to get to know each other. Uh Now, I don't
think we change any political views, but I do think
that they spend a week in the Ie hotel and
champagne and we don't let them out.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
I mean there they keep the bar open late at night.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
They go out and socialize. But it results and they
know each other. They feel like they have a bond,
and we know that many of them when they get
back to Springfield, they are more apt to work across
party lines, and some of them even go to each
other's districts if they're legislators, like we had in the
first year of some a senator from a REP then
(06:31):
from Bloomington. He went up to the South side of
Chicago and the Rep came down to Bloomington, and you know,
those kind of experiences I think go a long way
and making people realize, hey, there's different points of view.
One's not right and one's not wrong. They're just different
points of view, and you got to find common ground.
The thing Cynthia said, I think is extremely.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Important in public policy.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
If you have input from all the players, you know,
not just one part that has the most votes.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
You're going to have a.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Much better resolution to that issue, and it's going to
be much more accepted by the state.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
I found.
Speaker 5 (07:10):
So it's extremely important if you're going to be successful.
I think in getting things done that you make sure
it's not just your point of view that's included in
the final solution.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
City you're nodding, yes, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 6 (07:23):
I just think going to Governor Edgar's points about differences ideologically,
we actually aren't as different as we think we are.
So we have this assumption, particularly these days, right, there's
so much distrust unfortunately that you know, we're on one
side the other political party, they're basically aliens, they're from
another planet, right, and you just can't relate whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Do you think that that's new, because a lot of people,
as we've even talked about the concept of this show
the Middle, they're like, well, it didn't used to be
like this. Back when Jim Edgar was the governor of
Illinois in the nineties, people could talk to people they
disagreed with, and now they now they can't because they've
decided that everything is personal and they're just not willing
to make exception if somebody says something that they disagree
(08:07):
with politically.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I grew up and actually I
grew up on Champagne Havana too in the nineteen nineties,
in the eighties when Governor Edgar was a governor.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
And making me feel pretty I'm.
Speaker 6 (08:20):
So sorry about that, but you know, it was a
different time, I feel like, and these days with social media,
with a spread of misinformation, and unfortunately, with the uncertainty
we've been facing the world. I mean, COVID nineteen, the economy.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
How does that?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
What does that have to do with this?
Speaker 6 (08:37):
You know, when we're in an uncertain world, we tend
to kind of grasp onto things that will bring us control,
and unfortunately that tends to be more extreme views. I
do some research on conspiratorial thinking, and unfortunately, when we
are under times of uncertainty, we're going to grasp onto
these uncertain views. We're going to not necessarily want to
(08:59):
meet in them because we're really trying to protect ourselves
and our our world views.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Do you agree with that, Governor?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
I do.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I think that, you know, COVID was I just thank
Keavin I wasn't, Governor. I mean I told Governor that
I can't imagine going through that. And because it's all
new grounds and you've got to learn, and all these
conspiracy theories came out and whatever, you know, and I
think people under stress, they just have a tendency to
(09:28):
look for a solution that can get them through, and
often they're solutions that aren't based on facts, and they're
just they're extremes.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I want to try to go to a call here
before we go to the break. Here. This is Leonard,
who's in Kansas City, Kansas. Leonard, welcome to the middle.
Tell us, how do you talk to people you disagree
with politically or what's your personal experience with this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
All right? My brother and I I'm born in sixty kids,
he's born in sixty three. He grew up on the
Saint Louis County area Democrats. Everybody in my family went Republican.
Because I don't necessarily vote Republican, they think I'm a liberal,
and uh, the discussions got really heated, and my brother
(10:15):
and I are tight. We talked through times to leave
and sometimes he can he and or I can get
a little bit fired up. That what we decided about
two years ago, about the time that Biden took office,
that we were going to start fact checking. Yeah, we're
not going to bring up the subject without it being
(10:35):
fact checked, and uh, then we could talk more intelligently
about it, like where the source was from, so on
and so forth. I mean, there's there's a paper out
of uh I think New York that's actually owned by
the Chinese, and uh, you get some crazy stuff there,
and my brother was quoting it and I said, you know,
(10:56):
the China owns that, right, and then he stopped pulling it.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
But it's working for me to just make sure you're
fact checking.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, factchecking help. It doesn't change the political opinion sometimes.
Like one of the points that my brother likes to
quote is he calls it the rat infested cities and
quotes the crime rates. Well, that's when I introduced him
(11:23):
to per capita and where the real crime rates were
actually higher. We were out in the rural districts, and
it's just all about how they presented.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
The two of us has done this journey together now
for a couple of years, and it was kind of
eye openly. I mean, he brought some stuff to the
forefront that I was unaware of, and I brought some
stuff to the forefront that he was unaware of. Unfortunately,
both of us are a little disturbed in both parties now,
but it opened a good discourse by just fact checking.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Well, Leonard, that's a great point. Thank you so much
for that call, and we are waiting to hear from
you as well. If you're listening and you want to
be a part of this conversation. It's eight four four
four middle eight four four four six four three three
five three, or listen to the Middle dot com. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
(12:18):
in the Middle is a new national call in show.
We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically,
and philosophically. Or maybe you just want to meet in
the middle. My guest. This our former Illinois Governor Jim
Edgar and Cynthia Wang, a conflict resolution expert from Northwestern University,
and we're asking you, how do you talk to people
you disagree with? Tolliver, what is our number again?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
It's eight four four for Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. Getting that tattooed
on my arm?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Go ahead, perfect, give us a call, all right, and
let's take another call right now. This is Matthew in Odessa, Texas.
Joins us now, Matthew, welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 7 (12:58):
Thanks actually Odessa, Florida.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I'm doing its a Florida. Okay, sorry I had that wrong,
but thank you for calling in and tell us how
does this topic hit you? How do you talk to
people you disagree with?
Speaker 7 (13:10):
Well, I know that convincing someone one on one is
all I can do since I can't spread millions around Congress.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
And what I used to do is I tell him.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Up, we lost we lost Matthew there, but maybe we'll
get him back. And while we're waiting for that, this
is live radio. This is what happens. Let me go
back to Governor Edgar and ask him. Governor, you know,
as we've as we heard our caller just before the
break a moment ago talking about his brother and making
(13:41):
sure that facts are on the table, what do you
think about that?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
Well, I think that's good if you can agree on
the facts. Uh, you know, part of the thing is
where did you.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Get those facts? That could be a dilemma.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
But I think that's great. I mean, I think there's
a lot of families that what they've kind of done,
they just agreed not to talk about politics because they
you know, it breaks up the famery reunion.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
I remember when I was little, my mom said, don't
talk about politics. I said, well, that's what I want
to talk about. It wasn't as it wasn't as dangerous
back then as as today. But I do think that
people just need to tone it down a little bit. Again,
I think if you start out knowing. Okay, I've got
(14:24):
a position, but there's several different approaches that can solve
a problem. There's just not one magic proposal, and so
they have a point of view that you need to
take into consideration. It's interesting you both of you grew
up in Champagne. I grew up in Charleston, which for
people around the country is about forty miles south of
(14:44):
Champagne or Banna. It was a small town. We had
a university, but it was a small university and you know,
pretty homogenius. So when I became governor and all of
a sudden, I had the whole state, and this is
a very diverse state. You know, I had to learn
pretty quick. I needed to listen a lot more than talk,
and I needed to get around and understand people where
(15:07):
they were coming from, and I think helped. It helped
me understand their perspective on issues, which too often we
think we're writing there's no reason to learn something else.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
All right, let's go to another call. Jimmy is joining
us from Detroit, the Detroit area in Michigan. Jimmy, Welcome
to the Middle.
Speaker 8 (15:28):
Jeremy Congress on the New show Man. I've been following
to your career a long time as a long, long
time NPR listener.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Thank you, Jimmy. So how does this toffocate you?
Speaker 8 (15:37):
You know, I was time a screener. I mean, it's
really hard to have like healthy debate, you know, discourse
with people when our foundations of truth are different, right,
or they like we just we can't even agree on
what's true.
Speaker 6 (15:56):
Right.
Speaker 8 (15:57):
So it's like, if my source is being called into
question and my the counterpart that I'm talking to sources
being called into question, It's like, how do we have
any kind of worthwhile discussion when when we don't even
believe in what's true regarding what the other person is saying? So,
(16:19):
you know, I wanted to say that, and then I
really loved what the last color said. I mean, I'm
a consultant by trade, and so my whole job is
to seek to understand before seeking to be understood. So,
you know, if at the very least, if we can't
agree on what's true or regarding you know, some some
(16:39):
outside conversation, at least we can hear each other's stories, right,
And so so my job at that point is just
to seek to understand that person's story and hopefully they reciprocate.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Let me ask you this, Jimmy, because there are some people,
and I'm sure we all know these people, and maybe
some of our listeners are these people who when they
find doubt that somebody that they know and like you know,
has a different belief, they unfriend them on social media.
Have you ever done that?
Speaker 8 (17:09):
Well, it's funny you brought up social media, right, So
I'm not a huge fan of social media because the
whole point of social media is to speak to be understood,
and I think that's not a great way to start
a conversation, right. I think the whole point is to
is to is to come with curiosity, and that requires
some vulnerability, right. I mean, I I'll tell you right now,
(17:32):
I drink all the Brenet brown kool aid you can imagine,
and so like, I really try to to say, Okay,
I'm not going to come into this very certain of
anything other than I hope to connect with this person.
And that's really hard to do over social media when
people are just espousing and and and spouting off about
(17:54):
things that are really there to seek to be understood.
And it's it's not a good it's not healthy. In
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Well, Jimmy, I really appreciate your call and thanks for
the kind words. Let me go to Cynthia Wang on that,
because the issue of social media is a very interesting one.
Has social media made this whole issue worse where people
cannot talk to people they disagree with because social media
is just amplifying the problem.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
Yeah, Unfortunately with social media, there's just a number of
things going on. One is that you don't know what's
real and what's not real. The second thing is just
when we're not able to talk to each other and
we're only able to communicate via messages, everything's less personal. Right,
You're much more willing to attack someone, You're much more
(18:41):
willing to defend your people. So what I say is,
you know, sometimes you need to get off social media.
Let's say you're offended by something. I've done this too. Right,
if I'm offended by something, I'm not gonna reply in
the Facebook chat. What I'm gonna do is I'm going
to call them up and say, hey, can we talk
about this, Right, Let's talk a little bit more deeply
about this.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, And by the way, a reminder, if you want
to have a constructive comment or question on social media.
You can reach us on all of our social media platforms,
and rather than listing them off one by one, you
know X, Facebook, Instagram, et cetera, you can just go
to listen to the middle dot com and you can
reach out to us there. We've got them all linked
(19:21):
to right there, Governor igor, I bet you're happy that
you were governor in an area an era before social media.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Oh I am.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
I had some of my former staffers or younger and
who never trying to talk me in and run again,
and they said, yeah, you want to think about this.
There's a lot different than it was from you either,
you know. To me, that's the big part of the
problem when I grew up and you had three networks
and they pretty much said the same thing. That was
before Fox and that was before MSNBC and all these
(19:51):
Now we're going to go to either the far right
or the far left and build up a base. And
I think that's added as well as a social media
which I have trouble get on the Internet, so I'm
not a good one to judge social media, but just
I can usually tell somebody we complaining about something, and
I pretty well can tell what they watch Fox News.
(20:13):
I said, I haven't heard that, you know, and where
do you get that?
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Why? I got on Fox News?
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And then you've got some others even more extreme. So
I think we've seen a change in the media as
not just social media, but the regular media that's added
a lot to this polarization.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Before we go back to the phones, we do have
a studio audience here with us, about fifty people here
at Illinois Public Media watching and listening to the show.
And one person who is here is Matt Hausman, who
is a farmer, an aerospace engineer, and a former Republican
candidate for Congress and also the Red State chair of
the Illinois chapter of something called braver Angels, a grassroots
(20:53):
organization working to depolarize American politics.
Speaker 9 (20:57):
So braver Angels was formed an in late twenty sixteen
after that presidential election, and it's based on marriage and
family counseling. The co founders all knew each other through
that and did a workshop with Clinton voters and Trump voters,
brought them together for a weekend and just had a
conversation and it went very well. So they decided to
(21:20):
take it on the road and it's grown since then,
and so we run workshops. We are now getting involved
with politicians, getting them in these workshops again, all based
on that idea of where a national family use these
marriage and family counseling techniques to heal just like we
would if it was a family argument.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
But the people that participate have to be willing participants exactly.
Speaker 9 (21:42):
That's definitely one of those key things. We're not trying
to get anyone to change minds, but we're trying to
get people to just change how they view each other.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Why why is that so important to you?
Speaker 9 (21:53):
Actually, we just had I'm trying to remember where this was,
but we just had an article, I think it was
a news story about Brave Rangels and somebody's said, it's
hard to hate somebody that you actually know. And so
if you just get that, because we get so siloed
right now, and I know that's what you're trying to
do here with the middle. People get so much on
the right or the left and they don't know anyone
(22:14):
on the other side, and so when they get to
see those other people that can help build the conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
That was Matt Housman part of the Illinois chapter of
Braver Angels. Cynthia Wang, your thoughts on that you can't
hate somebody, you know.
Speaker 6 (22:26):
Yeah, yeah, I love this idea of a marriage at
the end of the day. You know, all of us
in the United States, it's you know, we all want
to get along. It's like right now kind of conflictive
conflictive marriage that's going on. So I think it's true.
I think what people tend to focus on when they
go into their conversations is I'm gonna give you the
(22:46):
three reasons why I'm right. I'm going to tell you
the three reasons why why you're wrong. And I think
it's a better approach if you just say, hey, let
let's just talk. Let's get to know each other first
before we start trying to battle and to see who
wins the battle.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, let me see if I can go to another
call here, Matthew is in Odessa, Florida. Back from Odessa, Florida. Matthew,
can you hear me, Matthew there, you're there? Great, Okay,
go ahead, sorry we got cut off earlier. Go ahead,
tell us what you're gonna say.
Speaker 7 (23:21):
No problem. Well, when I try and convince someone to
vote for the candidate who's doing something for them, you know,
which is the little guy. All my friends are little guys.
And I tell him, what did I say, Well, I'm
a Republican and I go, which I am. I am
a registered Republican, but I haven't voted Republicans for thirty
years because they stopped doing anything for the little guy.
(23:42):
So I convinced them that first all, the system is corrupt.
Even if Jesus was running for office, he'd have to
eat up all that corporate bribe, campaign money, dark money,
all that, so it wouldn't go to his opponent. If
he doesn't eat up all that money, Jesus has no
chance he even getting So the point is, the system
(24:03):
is corrupt. It makes even good men corrupt. And but
you have to look at what they do. I say,
look at the dumpcrats. They're doing lunches for poor children,
schooling for porn children, pre care for poor children, health
care for the mothers. The publicies don't even try to
do that stuff anymore. They will we do what the
(24:24):
big contributed to them to do, which is corporate profits.
So just by identifying with them and saying, look, this
is what how does it affects you personally?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Thank you Matthew for that call. Jim Edgar money in politics.
Does that play into this U thuk?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Yeah, way too much money in politics.
Speaker 10 (24:43):
I mean.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
I never was originally in favor of, you know, public
funding of campaigns, but I think it. You know, at
some point we just can't figure out how to do
the primaries. You can figure out the general election you
have two candidate. But I just think too much time
in vision on the part of the public official is
(25:09):
I got to go out and raise this money to
run next time, and they're just into that mode. It
was interesting that there was a comment I heard today
that the House Republicans and their usual vickering among themselves,
McCarthy was telling this guy from Florida that though he says, well,
I'm going to go make sure I'm going to give
five million, raise five million dollars for Republicans to get
(25:31):
a house, keep a house, he said, what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (25:33):
That's good?
Speaker 5 (25:34):
Well, I just thought that was a strange thing to say.
I think you got to have the money, but that's
not the point. The point is there to get something done,
not just go out and be able to raise campaign money.
And it is. It takes, especially at the congressional level,
legislative levels in Illinois now too. I mean when I
first ran this is forty years ago, it cost twenty
(25:57):
thousand dollars, and I imagine an open seat been in
rural Illinois would cost you a half million at least.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, let's go to another call. Macy is joining us. Macy,
where are you calling from?
Speaker 11 (26:11):
I'm calling from the Twin Cities in Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Wonderful And go ahead tell us. Tell us how you
talk to people you disagree with her? What do you
think about this issue?
Speaker 7 (26:22):
Well?
Speaker 11 (26:23):
I immediately thought of my grandpa. Me and him are
on complete opposite different levels of the spectrum. I'm in
high school still, and I remember about three years ago
I came out to him as transgender, and I mean
we didn't see eye to eye on everything, but it
took me months and it took him months, but we
realized that what we both want for both of us
(26:46):
is the best thing that can happen. And that kind
of extends out that if we come in from that mindset,
we can really find that sort of middle ground. And
it's something that I don't see a lot because it's
really hard to see that other person and see where
they're coming from. Because it's easier to see where you're
coming from.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
What was the breakthrough moment that allowed you to get
get you you and your grandfather on the same page
on that.
Speaker 11 (27:15):
I think it just happened organically. I think we were
at a farmer's market selling hot staff that we make together,
and I mean we made that through the difficult things.
Sometimes we didn't talk to each other or whatnot, but
it happened.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Let me ask you this, Macie. You know, you bring
up a really interesting point here, which and this is
I think one reason why a lot of people aren't
willing to continue a conversation with somebody because their very
existence feels like it's on the line. Like if you
if your grandfather didn't accept you being trans, it's not
just about a disagreement, it's about your very existence. Is
(27:56):
that how it felt to you?
Speaker 11 (28:00):
That's exactly how it felt to me. And it was
a really hard thing and it's the communication that's most important.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Well, thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate
having you there. And let me go to Cynthia Wang
on that. How about that issue of you know, whether
it's that your trans or certainly with all of the
Black Lives Matter conversation over the last several years, if
there was disagreement about that, many times people thought, well,
you don't agree with with my right to be a
full citizen of this country. If you don't agree with
(28:33):
me on this political issue, what do you think about that?
Speaker 6 (28:36):
Yeah, I think these conversations can be tough because it
becomes kind of a personal issue and a moral issue.
And this is what I think is difficult. But about
these conversations is people's emotions are riled up. So I
think one thing that is important, and I think it's
some of the themes that are going we're talking about today,
is that take a step back, right. One thing you
(28:57):
should really try to do with the other side is
us on making sure they feel safe safe to have
these discussions. And that's just one step. You might not
convince them at the end of the day, but it's
just one step towards that civil conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Governor Igar, your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Well, I can kind of relate to the grandfathers a
little bit. I mean it's just that that would be
you know that he grew up in a that that
issue has changed so much in the last fifty years.
I mean, I was a Republican who supported a lot
of gay rights legislation. I did not support same sex marriage,
(29:35):
but that time's passed me by. My kids just looked
at me and said, you know, Dad, what what's I've got?
One of my my son's more conservative I am, but
are that He just looked at me and says, what's
the issue here? So there are issues that I think
those of us who have a little more gray, if
we still have hair, you know, probably it's it's hard
to understand it. And but I think it's it's encouraging
(29:58):
to hear that his grandfather, you know, they finally kind
of came to common ground and he accepted it. But
that the age thing, I think is a problem older folks.
Just change is hard to accept and it's not just
in this issue, but a lot of issues. And as
a grandfather with four kids out of college and one
(30:21):
in college and one now married, I mean, you realized
times have changed and you've got to accept it and
hopefully you can go along with it.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
That is former Illinois Governor Jim Edgar and stay with us.
More of the middle coming right up. This is the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're live from Illinois Public Media in
my hometown of Verbana, Illinois, this hour and my guests
are former Illinois Governor Jim Edgar and Cynthia Wang, a
dispute resolution expert at Northwestern University. And we are asking you,
(30:52):
in a divided country, how do you talk to people
you disagree with? Our number is eight four four middle.
That's eight four four four six for three three five three,
Or you can reach out to us at listen to
themiddle dot com. Let's go to another call. Isaac is
joining us from Cuba, Missouri. Hi, Isaac, welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 12 (31:12):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I we all doing great, and tell us hey, yeah,
tell us what you think about this.
Speaker 10 (31:20):
So you know, when I was much younger, my mom
used to tell me, Uh, in order for there to
be a boxing match, there need to be two people
in the ring, and a discussion should remain a discussion.
But it's bears to turn.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Into yeah, you're still there, Isaac.
Speaker 10 (31:40):
Often the blows, if you may, I don't push my
point to view. Rather uh, people digging their meteos us
some questions. You know, the guy said, one of the
things to do is from medicine, and uh, in doing so,
you can he maybe learn a new perspective and learn
(32:00):
something new, learn a new fact or something that you
just that I might have missed. Now that's not just
you know, the political realm right now is about as
polarized as it could possibly be, and it's kind of
the theme of the show. But man, I talk to
my wife all the time and I'm like, hey, you know,
(32:21):
we probably shouldn't be raising our kids doing this and this. No,
she he can. I'm going to help him out and
he can go with his own shoes. Now we have conflict,
Now we have an argument. At that point, I'm like,
I settled back and I was like, Okay, well, what
benefit is it giving him to not go get his
own own shoes? You know what I mean the same
(32:43):
thing with my job. I'm a geologist, and oftentimes I'll
be underground and I'll be standing next to a fellow
geologist and we're looking at a face grade and we're
trying to estimate the amount of mineral that we're seeing
on that face and I'm saying that, dude, I don't know, man,
it's kind of questionable. I think it's like maybe two percent.
(33:06):
Two percent is our cutoff for advancing or And he's like, no,
that's six and a half percent. I'm like, man, are
you crazy. He's like, now it starts to create conflict, right, Well,
I start asking questions.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
I don't want to go too far down the geology
a rabbit hole with you, Isaac, but thank you for
that call. I you know, the question I guess that
I would get from that Governor Edgar is how how
much do you want to argue with somebody versus just
kind of trying to de escalate the situation.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
One of my wife.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
Would tell you that I argue more than I should, uh,
and on all things, not just politics. But you know, again,
I go back to the listening is extremely important. And
if people think you're going to listen to him, then
you know they might go along with some of the
things you want because at least they got a chance
to give their point of view. That's very important. One
(34:04):
of the things my experience with staff and everybody, you
have to all make them feel like they have their input.
In the end, you may not follow it, but they've
got to feel like they had a chance. And if
they feel like they had a chance, and they're going
to be much more apt to accept what the final
policy is. So again, I just think that we need
to listen a lot more and lower the voices. And
(34:27):
I probably ought to do that more myself.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Let's go to another call. Tony is joining us from Oleitha, Kansas. Tony,
did I say that right?
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Oletha?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
I have never been there myself.
Speaker 13 (34:39):
It is it is Alitha, Kansas.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Right, Okay, good, Well, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 13 (34:43):
Tell us what you're thinking, Well, thank you for taking
my call. I am a teacher, and I teach American history,
and I teach Black American history and women's studies. And
I've been listening to the conversation about especially generational conversations.
They are sometimes in conflict, and I just I guess
I want to give some insight that the way that
(35:04):
I was taught history and the way people older than
me I'm in my fifties were taught history is very
different than how this generation is taught history because we
bring in so much more perspective of different minorities and
women in history, and so kids today absolutely understand that
the view of America is very different based on where
(35:25):
you live and your ethnicity and all of that, and
so they're learning a different history. So sometimes I'm educating
parents as well as educating kids, and I think they
just learn a lot more from like in Black history,
about sometimes things weren't the same, you know, based on
where you live and your experiences. So I think that
(35:47):
kids are going home and having completely different conversations with
their parents than they ever would have in the past.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you for that call, Tony Cynthia Wang. What about
the generational part of.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
This, Yeah, I think it's just a great point that
where we all come from different cultures, whether it's a
generational culture or you know, I grew up in Oklahoma,
I lived in Singapore, it was in Michigan, I was
in Boston. Every place had different types of people that
had different worldviews because of how they were brought up.
So I think one thing that's important is that people
(36:21):
realize that we keep hearing about taking the perspective of
the other side, asking why all these things are key
ingredients to really open up the conversation and allow us
to learn from each other.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
You know, we're getting some interesting comments on social media
Lyda in Idaho rights. I think it's easy to encourage
people to be civil and agree to disagree, but we
need to be clear that sometimes people's beliefs result in
real harm and oppression to other people. So for me,
I don't agree to disagree about bigotry. We got to
that a bit earlier, and John writes via email, I've
(36:55):
realized that the key to being able to discuss difficult
topics with someone who disagrees with me is to separate
myself from what I believe. Until I do that, any
disagreement becomes personal governor Edgar, I wonder about that. Do
you have to just be really self aware personally as
you try to do the best you can to be
(37:16):
open to different views?
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Well, again I had to not for maybe the right reason.
I had to just to get something done. I think
it's very important that again we take in the consideration
the other point of view where they're coming from. You know,
somebody grew up in the South side of Chicago's going
to have a little different perspective and somebody who grew
up in southern Illinois. But doesn't mean one's wrong and
(37:40):
one's right. I keep going back to that.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
I think it's.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
Extremely important that we're more tolerant and we're more open
to hearing other points of view. And you know, I
think studies have shown old people. Really old people might
be better at that than people of middle age on
some of the being a little more tolerant tolerant on
some things. So it's it's a challenge, but it's something
(38:06):
that I think we all have to sit back and
just realize, all right, what I thought, maybe that's not
true anymore, and that's not the right approach.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Let's go to another called Bruce is with us from Sarasota, Florida. Bruce,
welcome to the Middle and tell us what's on your mind.
Speaker 12 (38:24):
Hey, Jeremy, thank you, what a great show. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Thank you.
Speaker 12 (38:27):
I served Governor o will Bee before Governor Edgar as
an assistant press secretary, and also went across the river
to Governor Bond as press secretary. So my perspective is
what we did to bring the middle together with the media.
Of course, the media is where you're going to be
speaking to them millions of people, because they're the kind
of people like you. What we actually did, and I
(38:48):
think what's worked is like we talked about before, was
getting to know each other. I had personal and social
sessions with these guys at my home. I bought the
reporters that were left right in the middle together on
a regular basis, and we became friends, and they became
friends with each other. And very much a Governor Edgar's
point about his program where he brings people together and
puts him at a hotel and us to let him out.
(39:10):
I mean, we did the same thing. You couldn't get out,
you had to stay together. And you know that still works.
And why aren't we doing that now? You know, it
seems like we have lost respect in this country. We've
lost respect for each other, we lost respect for law
and order, we left lost respect for all sorts of things.
That's a problem from families, I think, and that's the
whole of the rabbit hole. But that's what we did
(39:31):
in the media side, and we frankly had some very
very good results both in Illinois and in Missouri.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So are you going to take what you did to
the media to New York and Washington and go to
the big networks and try to get them to focus
on the middle more or are we going to be
the only game in town on that front.
Speaker 12 (39:51):
I'm in Governor Editor's court with a lot of gray hair,
four kids out of college, and ten grandchildren, So that's
probably past my point. But if I could be a help,
I would love to join Governor Egar's program in Illinois.
I was born and raised in northern Illinois, so it's
and I went to Momouth College and w r A.
M is where I started my radio business in Mommouth.
So I love that state and I would come back
(40:14):
for a second to be able to do that. So
if you need help, Governor Regor, Okay, I'm gonna.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Keep that in mind.
Speaker 5 (40:19):
Okay, they might be a little too old for the program.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Itself, though, thank you Bruce for that call. You know,
I will say for Dick Ogilvy, you might be older
than me. Even since Bruce brought us to politics. I
do think it's worth noting that as we go live
to air right now, we're on the verge potentially of
a government shutdown, which has a lot to do with
(40:43):
the fact that the two sides won't really talk to
each other. I think I read today that President Biden
and Kevin McCarthy, the House Speaker, Governor Edgar haven't really
been talking to each other at all recently.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Yeah, I think, what what the problem there? You're letting
a very small minority dictate what the majority is going
to do. I just think at some point that's got
to end on either side. I mean, Pelosi had problems
with the far left. McCarthy I think, would like to
cut a deal, but you know he's also got to rule.
He agreed to that. It didn't take much to call
(41:17):
for a vote on the speaker, and that's a thin margin.
I don't I think it goes back to one of
the things I always talk. You know, you want to
be civility, compromise and compassion. Those are three things I
say eric Key to remember, you got to compromise, you
need to be civil.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
But you also have.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
To remember if you don't do your job, if you
let the federal government close down, there's a lot of
little people that are going to get hurt. Not going
to be the politicians, It's going to be the little guy.
And that to me is that's that's a shame. There's
nobody that's in political life should allow that to happen.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Let's go to another call from Gladwin, Pennsylvania, France. Scene
is with us. That's just outside Philadelphia, France. Scene. Welcome
to the middle what's on your mind, Hi.
Speaker 14 (42:07):
Jeremy, and congratulations on your show. We're so excited to
have you back on the air. And I'm calling because
this is so relevant right now. My husband and I
have a lot of social events that we go to,
and we have a lot of acquaintances that we bump
into repeatedly that always the conversation turns to politics, and
(42:27):
if we try to discuss anything, they seem to just
dig their heels in deeper and deeper and it becomes
really unpleasant. And so we have now started to just
avoid people all together. And I thought perhaps somebody on
the panel could help with that.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Thank you Francine for that call. Cynthia Wang, what about that?
Just avoid people if you if you don't want to
talk to them, if they disagree with you.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:52):
The unfortunate part is if we keep avoiding each other, right,
we're just going to go into our separate echo chambers,
and unfortunately, things will get more So I think it's
a good question of you know, what are other options
we can do? And I'm going to go back to
the first caller because I think it was a really
good idea to even structure conversations.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
Right.
Speaker 6 (43:11):
What I mean by that is, hey, hey, you don't
of course, if we just randomly start having a conversation,
both sides will be unprepared, they're going to get defensive.
So why don't you just start a conversation by saying, hey,
let's put some ground rules down. If things start getting heated,
we'll take breaks, we'll take turns, we'll make sure we're
listening to each other, we're getting each other's perspective. I
(43:33):
teach this to my students all the time. You know,
conflicts happen because there's no structure around it. Then the
emotions take over. So if you put a structure on
it and put some assumptions on it, then then it
can be a much more productive conversation.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Governor, I agree. Is that something that you teach people
as they're coming through your program?
Speaker 5 (43:50):
Well, I mean we teach them you respect the other
point of view and you you know, you need to
be civil. It's extremely important that you know you you
show respect for that person by listening to them, and
they have a point of view that might be as
legitimate as your point of view if there're ae hundred
and eighty degrees apart. So it's very important that if
(44:12):
you're going to be able to succeed I think in
not just politics, but in life in general. You've got
to be open to other people's point of view and
find that common ground that we just don't have enough
of in this country.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
I want to get to another call, because this show
is about the calls. It's about you. It's about you
if you're in the middle, geographically, politically, philosophically, being part
of the conversation. And we've gotten to a lot of
great calls today, but let's get to another one. This
is Tom, who's in Minoqua, Wisconsin. Tom, Welcome to the Middle.
Tell us what's on your.
Speaker 15 (44:44):
Mind, father Jeremy. Thanks for taking my call. Austin show
so far I could just kind of wanted to say,
is that. I mean, I'd brought in a paper about
this a few years ago, I think it was in
twenty fourteen, and it's kind of stayed the same. Where
one of the artest things nowadays is that there really
is no more civil discourse. It's really hard to have
(45:05):
a conversation with somebody when it's like it's almost not
even possible. And I mean a lot of the points,
it's lots of propaganda, lots of false information, and it's
like trying to drag somebody through the mud to even
just look at these statistics. It's just very difficult. And
I mean I think what y'all have been saying earlier
about how it's basically there's grains of truth in something
(45:31):
that you don't like. You need to work on both
sides that come together to find a middle ground. I mean,
there's something called Hegel's dialectic where we'll go to two
different extremes before we can start to even agree on something.
So I just wish there was more civil discourse, and
like good civil discourse. So that's about all I.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Have to say, Tom, thank you so much for that call.
Cynthia Wang, I'll just go to you on that one.
More civil discourse. I mean, that's what this is all about.
Speaker 6 (45:57):
Yeah, yeah, it is hard because I think people are
focused on the today. But even as the person talked
about talking with his grandfather, you know, everybody, we actually
have some similar interests. We all want the US to
be better, we want America to thrive, and if there's
a way to kind of focus on that ultimate goal,
(46:17):
even start by saying, hey, this is our ultimate goal.
We have the similarity, it can hopefully reshift the conversation
into another direction.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
I want to just check in on social media as
we close out this hour. Kate from Denver writes to
us and Listen to the Middle dot com, I have
forty two first cousins, Talliver. I don't know if that's
really That sounds alike a lot, but we're going to
trust Kate on this one. I have forty two first
cousins who span the political spectrum. One cousin and I
have regular conversations on politics. We talk calmly off and
(46:46):
over text. When we get emotional, we take breaks, kind
of like we were just hearing. Sandy writes, how do
you talk politics with people you disagree with? Be fearlessly curious?
Thank you Sandy for that comment, and thanks to everybody
for calling in to our number on our very first
show of the Middle, and also for writing to us
at Listen to the Middle dot com. We do have
(47:07):
time for a game? Uh now, since since we have
a new Darren as I said, new Bewitched Darren Dolliver,
we have a new game. It's similar but different, Tolliver,
what is the game?
Speaker 7 (47:16):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (47:16):
First off, never thought I'd be doing trivia with Governor
Jim Edgar. Amazing life goal. Accomplished the game is very simple, y'all.
I'm gonna play a drum beat from a famous song
by a famous act. You name the act, you name
the song, you win the governorship.
Speaker 5 (47:32):
Well set of the music you've been playing. I don't
think I was.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
I mean, let's see if you can get this lost
my hearing by the time you're gonna I think you're
gonna have a good chance of this one. Let's let's
hear it. Whose drum line is it? Anyway? Here you go,
whoever gets it first.
Speaker 6 (47:50):
Come together.
Speaker 12 (47:53):
We gotta work.
Speaker 6 (47:54):
Yeah, I was trying to give some time.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
All Right, you've got it, you're governor. Guess yeah, hear
that here.
Speaker 6 (48:05):
Well.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I want to thank my guest, Governor Jim Edgar, the
former Republican governor of Illinois. Governor Edgar has been great
having you on the show. Thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
Good to be in with you.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
And Cynthia Wang, who heads the Dispute Resolution Research Center
at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. Cynthia Wang, thanks.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
To you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Thank you so much, and a big thank you to
our DJ Tolliver. We want to invite you to join
us next week, same time, same place, Tolliver, What is
the topic for our show next week?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
How are higher interest rates and inflation affecting you?
Speaker 1 (48:39):
And the reason we're giving you that now is because
not everyone is listening to this show live, but we
want to hear from you. Either way, you can reach
out to us at eight four four for Middle and
leave us a voicemail or call in live next week,
or you can go to Listen to the Middle dot
com to drop us a line while you're there. By
the way, sign up for our weekly newsletter as well.
That's a Listen to the Middle dot com. The Middle
is brought to you by Long Nook Media and produced
(49:00):
by joe An Jennings, John Barth, Harrison Patino, and Danny Alexander.
Our digital producer is Charlie Little. Our technical director is
Jason croft Here at Illinois Public Media, and help here
came from Lily Duncanson, Liz Westfield, Reginald Hardwick, and Moss Bresnahan.
Our theme music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks also
to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia and the more than three
(49:21):
hundred and seventy public radio stations that are making it
possible for people across the country to listen to the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. Thanks for joining us. Talk to you
next week.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson Live this evening
from Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, my hometown and
at the station where I got my career started when
I was a kid. It is great to have you
here with us for our new weekly show.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
If you listen to our pilot episodes last year, you
might remember that we do things a little differently here
at the Middle. First of all, we have a house DJ,
and just like in Bewitched when they changed Darren's, we
have a new DJ now with our thanks to the
great Anthony valade As. Our new DJ is Tolliver Tlliver.
It's great to have you here.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Hey, Anthony, I love you, but it is my time
to shine, you know. Great to be here, Jeremy like
you obviously. I'm from the land of Lincoln, Illinois, from
the South side of Chicago. I'm a funk singer, a journalist,
the first and probably only funk journalist in the world.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Something much needed in our media. And by the way,
I hope I didn't like age myself with that Darren
Bewitched reference. I believe me. I was watching it on
Nick at night, not in the original. The goal of
this show is to elevate the voices of people in
the middle. And of course that means the geographic middle
of the country, which is one reason we wanted this
show to be live across the Central and Mountain time zones.
(01:15):
But it also means the political middle, the philosophical middle,
the middle class, people who want to meet in the middle,
all things that we could use more of in our media.
We want to create an environment where people can have
conversations about divisive issues in a civil, respectful way. And
I hope that we can talk through some of the
things that in recent years a lot of people just
decided they didn't want to talk about. So I asked
(01:37):
that we have these conversations without condescension, with respect for
one another. I want this to be a civil conversation,
even when we disagree. So here's our topic. In the
next hour, we're going to be asking this simple question,
in a time of divisive politics, how do you talk
to someone you disagree with? Tolliver, can you give us
the phone number?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Absolutely, just call eight four four four Middle that's eight
four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And while you make that call, if you want to
join the conversation. Let's meet our panel guests. Joining me
from Springfield, Illinois is Jim Edgar, who was a popular
two term Republican governor of Illinois throughout the nineteen nineties. Governor,
Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Good to be with you, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And you're a moderate Republican. You had a reputation for
working across party lines to get things done. In fact,
you were re elected I believe, with one hundred and
one out of one hundred and two counties in blue Illinois.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
How did you do it?
Speaker 5 (02:30):
And I want to I want to point out it.
I carried Cook County that wasn't the one that you
didn't carry.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Lil County in southern Illinois.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
I lost by three votes and I'm still mad about that.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Well, but just briefly, to get us started here, how
do you work across party lines? Why is that important
to you?
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Well, it's important because you want to get things done.
I mean, I you know politicians everybody said, oh they
worried about is getting reelected. Well, you want to get
re elected, but you want to do something while you're there.
If you don't, you made a big mistake, because that's
not a profession. If you don't want to get something done.
It's the money's not that good and the hours are
lousy and people are mad at you all the time.
(03:07):
So to get something done, it's basically for a Republican
in Illinois, you have to reach across the aisle. You
have to work with Democrats. Illinois is a very diverse
state and there are all kinds of points of view
and you've got to respect those points of view and
work with them. You're not always are going to agree,
but I do think if you treat people with civility
(03:31):
and you get to know them personally, you can get
a lot more done. And so's that to me is
why you know I wanted to get things done. And
I have to say, you set aside the political affiliation.
There isn't all that much difference. A lot of very
conservative Republicans and very liberal Democrats have a lot of
common interest in things. So you try to build off that.
(03:55):
You try to find out where you agree before you get.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Involved in the things you did agree on.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
All right, Well, let's meet our other guest, Cynthia Wang,
who is executive director of the Dispute Resolution and Research
Center at Northwestern University. She's also president of the International
Association for Conflict Management, Doctor Wang.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
Welcome to you, Hi Jeremy, nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
It's great to have you. And you've done a lot
of research on conflict resolution, both here in the United
States and in Taiwan. If you had to name one
key ingredient in successful communication when people disagree, what would
it be.
Speaker 6 (04:25):
Oh? Yeah, I think it's just taking a step back,
not viewing it as a battle, but instead, hey, let's
look at this, what do we want to get done
in this particular situation. And in those types of situation,
disagreement can be really, really useful. You make better decisions
if you can actually talk through things and think through things.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 6 (04:44):
I mean if you think about it right, If you're
just talking about one perspective and you only have one
perspective and you don't go beyond that, you're not going
to get the full picture. You're only going to get
half the picture, a quarter of the picture. But if
we can start actually vocalizing things and actually listening to
different perspectives and integrating them into our decision making, than
things are better. It's something I teach my students all
(05:06):
the time at Northwestern.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Our number, by the way is eight four four four
middle that is eight four four four six four three
three five three. We're gonna go to the phones in
just a minute. But Governor Edgar, I want to go
back to you because for about ten years you've been
gathering politicians from across the political spectrum, rising stars but
early in their professions, and you teach them how to
work together.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Well we yeah, our program is basically we do a
lot of things, but really the bottom line is I
want them to get to know each other and to
have an understanding. One of the things I do that
when I first did to everybody just looked at me.
I make them change seats every day. They got to
sit by different people. Then I start out with a question,
(05:49):
what's your favorite book? Look to the guy next to
you and tell him what's your favorite book. It's just
to get to know each other. Uh Now, I don't
think we change any political views, but I do think
that they spend a week in the Ie hotel and
champagne and we don't let them out.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
I mean there they keep the bar open late at night.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
They go out and socialize. But it results and they
know each other. They feel like they have a bond,
and we know that many of them when they get
back to Springfield, they are more apt to work across
party lines, and some of them even go to each
other's districts if they're legislators, like we had in the
first year of some a senator from a REP then
(06:31):
from Bloomington. He went up to the South side of
Chicago and the Rep came down to Bloomington, and you know,
those kind of experiences I think go a long way
and making people realize, hey, there's different points of view.
One's not right and one's not wrong. They're just different
points of view, and you got to find common ground.
The thing Cynthia said, I think is extremely.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Important in public policy.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
If you have input from all the players, you know,
not just one part that has the most votes.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
You're going to have a.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Much better resolution to that issue, and it's going to
be much more accepted by the state.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
I found.
Speaker 5 (07:10):
So it's extremely important if you're going to be successful.
I think in getting things done that you make sure
it's not just your point of view that's included in
the final solution.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
City you're nodding, yes, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 6 (07:23):
I just think going to Governor Edgar's points about differences ideologically,
we actually aren't as different as we think we are.
So we have this assumption, particularly these days, right, there's
so much distrust unfortunately that you know, we're on one
side the other political party, they're basically aliens, they're from
another planet, right, and you just can't relate whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Do you think that that's new, because a lot of people,
as we've even talked about the concept of this show
the Middle, they're like, well, it didn't used to be
like this. Back when Jim Edgar was the governor of
Illinois in the nineties, people could talk to people they
disagreed with, and now they now they can't because they've
decided that everything is personal and they're just not willing
to make exception if somebody says something that they disagree
(08:07):
with politically.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I grew up and actually I
grew up on Champagne Havana too in the nineteen nineties,
in the eighties when Governor Edgar was a governor.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
And making me feel pretty I'm.
Speaker 6 (08:20):
So sorry about that, but you know, it was a
different time, I feel like, and these days with social media,
with a spread of misinformation, and unfortunately, with the uncertainty
we've been facing the world. I mean, COVID nineteen, the economy.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
How does that?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
What does that have to do with this?
Speaker 6 (08:37):
You know, when we're in an uncertain world, we tend
to kind of grasp onto things that will bring us control,
and unfortunately that tends to be more extreme views. I
do some research on conspiratorial thinking, and unfortunately, when we
are under times of uncertainty, we're going to grasp onto
these uncertain views. We're going to not necessarily want to
(08:59):
meet in them because we're really trying to protect ourselves
and our our world views.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Do you agree with that, Governor?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
I do.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I think that, you know, COVID was I just thank
Keavin I wasn't, Governor. I mean I told Governor that
I can't imagine going through that. And because it's all
new grounds and you've got to learn, and all these
conspiracy theories came out and whatever, you know, and I
think people under stress, they just have a tendency to
(09:28):
look for a solution that can get them through, and
often they're solutions that aren't based on facts, and they're
just they're extremes.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I want to try to go to a call here
before we go to the break. Here. This is Leonard,
who's in Kansas City, Kansas. Leonard, welcome to the middle.
Tell us, how do you talk to people you disagree
with politically or what's your personal experience with this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
All right? My brother and I I'm born in sixty kids,
he's born in sixty three. He grew up on the
Saint Louis County area Democrats. Everybody in my family went Republican.
Because I don't necessarily vote Republican, they think I'm a liberal,
and uh, the discussions got really heated, and my brother
(10:15):
and I are tight. We talked through times to leave
and sometimes he can he and or I can get
a little bit fired up. That what we decided about
two years ago, about the time that Biden took office,
that we were going to start fact checking. Yeah, we're
not going to bring up the subject without it being
(10:35):
fact checked, and uh, then we could talk more intelligently
about it, like where the source was from, so on
and so forth. I mean, there's there's a paper out
of uh I think New York that's actually owned by
the Chinese, and uh, you get some crazy stuff there,
and my brother was quoting it and I said, you know,
(10:56):
the China owns that, right, and then he stopped pulling it.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
But it's working for me to just make sure you're
fact checking.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, factchecking help. It doesn't change the political opinion sometimes.
Like one of the points that my brother likes to
quote is he calls it the rat infested cities and
quotes the crime rates. Well, that's when I introduced him
(11:23):
to per capita and where the real crime rates were
actually higher. We were out in the rural districts, and
it's just all about how they presented.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
The two of us has done this journey together now
for a couple of years, and it was kind of
eye openly. I mean, he brought some stuff to the
forefront that I was unaware of, and I brought some
stuff to the forefront that he was unaware of. Unfortunately,
both of us are a little disturbed in both parties now,
but it opened a good discourse by just fact checking.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Well, Leonard, that's a great point. Thank you so much
for that call, and we are waiting to hear from
you as well. If you're listening and you want to
be a part of this conversation. It's eight four four
four middle eight four four four six four three three
five three, or listen to the Middle dot com. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
(12:18):
in the Middle is a new national call in show.
We're focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically,
and philosophically. Or maybe you just want to meet in
the middle. My guest. This our former Illinois Governor Jim
Edgar and Cynthia Wang, a conflict resolution expert from Northwestern University,
and we're asking you, how do you talk to people
you disagree with? Tolliver, what is our number again?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
It's eight four four for Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. Getting that tattooed
on my arm?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Go ahead, perfect, give us a call, all right, and
let's take another call right now. This is Matthew in Odessa, Texas.
Joins us now, Matthew, welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 7 (12:58):
Thanks actually Odessa, Florida.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I'm doing its a Florida. Okay, sorry I had that wrong,
but thank you for calling in and tell us how
does this topic hit you? How do you talk to
people you disagree with?
Speaker 7 (13:10):
Well, I know that convincing someone one on one is
all I can do since I can't spread millions around Congress.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
And what I used to do is I tell him.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Up, we lost we lost Matthew there, but maybe we'll
get him back. And while we're waiting for that, this
is live radio. This is what happens. Let me go
back to Governor Edgar and ask him. Governor, you know,
as we've as we heard our caller just before the
break a moment ago talking about his brother and making
(13:41):
sure that facts are on the table, what do you
think about that?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
Well, I think that's good if you can agree on
the facts. Uh, you know, part of the thing is
where did you.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Get those facts? That could be a dilemma.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
But I think that's great. I mean, I think there's
a lot of families that what they've kind of done,
they just agreed not to talk about politics because they
you know, it breaks up the famery reunion.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
I remember when I was little, my mom said, don't
talk about politics. I said, well, that's what I want
to talk about. It wasn't as it wasn't as dangerous
back then as as today. But I do think that
people just need to tone it down a little bit. Again,
I think if you start out knowing. Okay, I've got
(14:24):
a position, but there's several different approaches that can solve
a problem. There's just not one magic proposal, and so
they have a point of view that you need to
take into consideration. It's interesting you both of you grew
up in Champagne. I grew up in Charleston, which for
people around the country is about forty miles south of
(14:44):
Champagne or Banna. It was a small town. We had
a university, but it was a small university and you know,
pretty homogenius. So when I became governor and all of
a sudden, I had the whole state, and this is
a very diverse state. You know, I had to learn
pretty quick. I needed to listen a lot more than talk,
and I needed to get around and understand people where
(15:07):
they were coming from, and I think helped. It helped
me understand their perspective on issues, which too often we
think we're writing there's no reason to learn something else.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
All right, let's go to another call. Jimmy is joining
us from Detroit, the Detroit area in Michigan. Jimmy, Welcome
to the Middle.
Speaker 8 (15:28):
Jeremy Congress on the New show Man. I've been following
to your career a long time as a long, long
time NPR listener.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Thank you, Jimmy. So how does this toffocate you?
Speaker 8 (15:37):
You know, I was time a screener. I mean, it's
really hard to have like healthy debate, you know, discourse
with people when our foundations of truth are different, right,
or they like we just we can't even agree on
what's true.
Speaker 6 (15:56):
Right.
Speaker 8 (15:57):
So it's like, if my source is being called into
question and my the counterpart that I'm talking to sources
being called into question, It's like, how do we have
any kind of worthwhile discussion when when we don't even
believe in what's true regarding what the other person is saying? So,
(16:19):
you know, I wanted to say that, and then I
really loved what the last color said. I mean, I'm
a consultant by trade, and so my whole job is
to seek to understand before seeking to be understood. So,
you know, if at the very least, if we can't
agree on what's true or regarding you know, some some
(16:39):
outside conversation, at least we can hear each other's stories, right,
And so so my job at that point is just
to seek to understand that person's story and hopefully they reciprocate.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Let me ask you this, Jimmy, because there are some people,
and I'm sure we all know these people, and maybe
some of our listeners are these people who when they
find doubt that somebody that they know and like you know,
has a different belief, they unfriend them on social media.
Have you ever done that?
Speaker 8 (17:09):
Well, it's funny you brought up social media, right, So
I'm not a huge fan of social media because the
whole point of social media is to speak to be understood,
and I think that's not a great way to start
a conversation, right. I think the whole point is to
is to is to come with curiosity, and that requires
some vulnerability, right. I mean, I I'll tell you right now,
(17:32):
I drink all the Brenet brown kool aid you can imagine,
and so like, I really try to to say, Okay,
I'm not going to come into this very certain of
anything other than I hope to connect with this person.
And that's really hard to do over social media when
people are just espousing and and and spouting off about
(17:54):
things that are really there to seek to be understood.
And it's it's not a good it's not healthy. In
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Well, Jimmy, I really appreciate your call and thanks for
the kind words. Let me go to Cynthia Wang on that,
because the issue of social media is a very interesting one.
Has social media made this whole issue worse where people
cannot talk to people they disagree with because social media
is just amplifying the problem.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
Yeah, Unfortunately with social media, there's just a number of
things going on. One is that you don't know what's
real and what's not real. The second thing is just
when we're not able to talk to each other and
we're only able to communicate via messages, everything's less personal. Right,
You're much more willing to attack someone, You're much more
(18:41):
willing to defend your people. So what I say is,
you know, sometimes you need to get off social media.
Let's say you're offended by something. I've done this too. Right,
if I'm offended by something, I'm not gonna reply in
the Facebook chat. What I'm gonna do is I'm going
to call them up and say, hey, can we talk
about this, Right, Let's talk a little bit more deeply
about this.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, And by the way, a reminder, if you want
to have a constructive comment or question on social media.
You can reach us on all of our social media platforms,
and rather than listing them off one by one, you
know X, Facebook, Instagram, et cetera, you can just go
to listen to the middle dot com and you can
reach out to us there. We've got them all linked
(19:21):
to right there, Governor igor, I bet you're happy that
you were governor in an area an era before social media.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Oh I am.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
I had some of my former staffers or younger and
who never trying to talk me in and run again,
and they said, yeah, you want to think about this.
There's a lot different than it was from you either,
you know. To me, that's the big part of the
problem when I grew up and you had three networks
and they pretty much said the same thing. That was
before Fox and that was before MSNBC and all these
(19:51):
Now we're going to go to either the far right
or the far left and build up a base. And
I think that's added as well as a social media
which I have trouble get on the Internet, so I'm
not a good one to judge social media, but just
I can usually tell somebody we complaining about something, and
I pretty well can tell what they watch Fox News.
(20:13):
I said, I haven't heard that, you know, and where
do you get that?
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Why? I got on Fox News?
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And then you've got some others even more extreme. So
I think we've seen a change in the media as
not just social media, but the regular media that's added
a lot to this polarization.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Before we go back to the phones, we do have
a studio audience here with us, about fifty people here
at Illinois Public Media watching and listening to the show.
And one person who is here is Matt Hausman, who
is a farmer, an aerospace engineer, and a former Republican
candidate for Congress and also the Red State chair of
the Illinois chapter of something called braver Angels, a grassroots
(20:53):
organization working to depolarize American politics.
Speaker 9 (20:57):
So braver Angels was formed an in late twenty sixteen
after that presidential election, and it's based on marriage and
family counseling. The co founders all knew each other through
that and did a workshop with Clinton voters and Trump voters,
brought them together for a weekend and just had a
conversation and it went very well. So they decided to
(21:20):
take it on the road and it's grown since then,
and so we run workshops. We are now getting involved
with politicians, getting them in these workshops again, all based
on that idea of where a national family use these
marriage and family counseling techniques to heal just like we
would if it was a family argument.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
But the people that participate have to be willing participants exactly.
Speaker 9 (21:42):
That's definitely one of those key things. We're not trying
to get anyone to change minds, but we're trying to
get people to just change how they view each other.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Why why is that so important to you?
Speaker 9 (21:53):
Actually, we just had I'm trying to remember where this was,
but we just had an article, I think it was
a news story about Brave Rangels and somebody's said, it's
hard to hate somebody that you actually know. And so
if you just get that, because we get so siloed
right now, and I know that's what you're trying to
do here with the middle. People get so much on
the right or the left and they don't know anyone
(22:14):
on the other side, and so when they get to
see those other people that can help build the conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
That was Matt Housman part of the Illinois chapter of
Braver Angels. Cynthia Wang, your thoughts on that you can't
hate somebody, you know.
Speaker 6 (22:26):
Yeah, yeah, I love this idea of a marriage at
the end of the day. You know, all of us
in the United States, it's you know, we all want
to get along. It's like right now kind of conflictive
conflictive marriage that's going on. So I think it's true.
I think what people tend to focus on when they
go into their conversations is I'm gonna give you the
(22:46):
three reasons why I'm right. I'm going to tell you
the three reasons why why you're wrong. And I think
it's a better approach if you just say, hey, let
let's just talk. Let's get to know each other first
before we start trying to battle and to see who
wins the battle.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, let me see if I can go to another
call here, Matthew is in Odessa, Florida. Back from Odessa, Florida. Matthew,
can you hear me, Matthew there, you're there? Great, Okay,
go ahead, sorry we got cut off earlier. Go ahead,
tell us what you're gonna say.
Speaker 7 (23:21):
No problem. Well, when I try and convince someone to
vote for the candidate who's doing something for them, you know,
which is the little guy. All my friends are little guys.
And I tell him, what did I say, Well, I'm
a Republican and I go, which I am. I am
a registered Republican, but I haven't voted Republicans for thirty
years because they stopped doing anything for the little guy.
(23:42):
So I convinced them that first all, the system is corrupt.
Even if Jesus was running for office, he'd have to
eat up all that corporate bribe, campaign money, dark money,
all that, so it wouldn't go to his opponent. If
he doesn't eat up all that money, Jesus has no
chance he even getting So the point is, the system
(24:03):
is corrupt. It makes even good men corrupt. And but
you have to look at what they do. I say,
look at the dumpcrats. They're doing lunches for poor children,
schooling for porn children, pre care for poor children, health
care for the mothers. The publicies don't even try to
do that stuff anymore. They will we do what the
(24:24):
big contributed to them to do, which is corporate profits.
So just by identifying with them and saying, look, this
is what how does it affects you personally?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Thank you Matthew for that call. Jim Edgar money in politics.
Does that play into this U thuk?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Yeah, way too much money in politics.
Speaker 10 (24:43):
I mean.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
I never was originally in favor of, you know, public
funding of campaigns, but I think it. You know, at
some point we just can't figure out how to do
the primaries. You can figure out the general election you
have two candidate. But I just think too much time
in vision on the part of the public official is
(25:09):
I got to go out and raise this money to
run next time, and they're just into that mode. It
was interesting that there was a comment I heard today
that the House Republicans and their usual vickering among themselves,
McCarthy was telling this guy from Florida that though he says, well,
I'm going to go make sure I'm going to give
five million, raise five million dollars for Republicans to get
(25:31):
a house, keep a house, he said, what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (25:33):
That's good?
Speaker 5 (25:34):
Well, I just thought that was a strange thing to say.
I think you got to have the money, but that's
not the point. The point is there to get something done,
not just go out and be able to raise campaign money.
And it is. It takes, especially at the congressional level,
legislative levels in Illinois now too. I mean when I
first ran this is forty years ago, it cost twenty
(25:57):
thousand dollars, and I imagine an open seat been in
rural Illinois would cost you a half million at least.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, let's go to another call. Macy is joining us. Macy,
where are you calling from?
Speaker 11 (26:11):
I'm calling from the Twin Cities in Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Wonderful And go ahead tell us. Tell us how you
talk to people you disagree with her? What do you
think about this issue?
Speaker 7 (26:22):
Well?
Speaker 11 (26:23):
I immediately thought of my grandpa. Me and him are
on complete opposite different levels of the spectrum. I'm in
high school still, and I remember about three years ago
I came out to him as transgender, and I mean
we didn't see eye to eye on everything, but it
took me months and it took him months, but we
realized that what we both want for both of us
(26:46):
is the best thing that can happen. And that kind
of extends out that if we come in from that mindset,
we can really find that sort of middle ground. And
it's something that I don't see a lot because it's
really hard to see that other person and see where
they're coming from. Because it's easier to see where you're
coming from.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
What was the breakthrough moment that allowed you to get
get you you and your grandfather on the same page
on that.
Speaker 11 (27:15):
I think it just happened organically. I think we were
at a farmer's market selling hot staff that we make together,
and I mean we made that through the difficult things.
Sometimes we didn't talk to each other or whatnot, but
it happened.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Let me ask you this, Macie. You know, you bring
up a really interesting point here, which and this is
I think one reason why a lot of people aren't
willing to continue a conversation with somebody because their very
existence feels like it's on the line. Like if you
if your grandfather didn't accept you being trans, it's not
just about a disagreement, it's about your very existence. Is
(27:56):
that how it felt to you?
Speaker 11 (28:00):
That's exactly how it felt to me. And it was
a really hard thing and it's the communication that's most important.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Well, thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate
having you there. And let me go to Cynthia Wang
on that. How about that issue of you know, whether
it's that your trans or certainly with all of the
Black Lives Matter conversation over the last several years, if
there was disagreement about that, many times people thought, well,
you don't agree with with my right to be a
full citizen of this country. If you don't agree with
(28:33):
me on this political issue, what do you think about that?
Speaker 6 (28:36):
Yeah, I think these conversations can be tough because it
becomes kind of a personal issue and a moral issue.
And this is what I think is difficult. But about
these conversations is people's emotions are riled up. So I
think one thing that is important, and I think it's
some of the themes that are going we're talking about today,
is that take a step back, right. One thing you
(28:57):
should really try to do with the other side is
us on making sure they feel safe safe to have
these discussions. And that's just one step. You might not
convince them at the end of the day, but it's
just one step towards that civil conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Governor Igar, your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Well, I can kind of relate to the grandfathers a
little bit. I mean it's just that that would be
you know that he grew up in a that that
issue has changed so much in the last fifty years.
I mean, I was a Republican who supported a lot
of gay rights legislation. I did not support same sex marriage,
(29:35):
but that time's passed me by. My kids just looked
at me and said, you know, Dad, what what's I've got?
One of my my son's more conservative I am, but
are that He just looked at me and says, what's
the issue here? So there are issues that I think
those of us who have a little more gray, if
we still have hair, you know, probably it's it's hard
to understand it. And but I think it's it's encouraging
(29:58):
to hear that his grandfather, you know, they finally kind
of came to common ground and he accepted it. But
that the age thing, I think is a problem older folks.
Just change is hard to accept and it's not just
in this issue, but a lot of issues. And as
a grandfather with four kids out of college and one
(30:21):
in college and one now married, I mean, you realized
times have changed and you've got to accept it and
hopefully you can go along with it.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
That is former Illinois Governor Jim Edgar and stay with us.
More of the middle coming right up. This is the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're live from Illinois Public Media in
my hometown of Verbana, Illinois, this hour and my guests
are former Illinois Governor Jim Edgar and Cynthia Wang, a
dispute resolution expert at Northwestern University. And we are asking you,
(30:52):
in a divided country, how do you talk to people
you disagree with? Our number is eight four four middle.
That's eight four four four six for three three five three,
Or you can reach out to us at listen to
themiddle dot com. Let's go to another call. Isaac is
joining us from Cuba, Missouri. Hi, Isaac, welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 12 (31:12):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I we all doing great, and tell us hey, yeah,
tell us what you think about this.
Speaker 10 (31:20):
So you know, when I was much younger, my mom
used to tell me, Uh, in order for there to
be a boxing match, there need to be two people
in the ring, and a discussion should remain a discussion.
But it's bears to turn.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Into yeah, you're still there, Isaac.
Speaker 10 (31:40):
Often the blows, if you may, I don't push my
point to view. Rather uh, people digging their meteos us
some questions. You know, the guy said, one of the
things to do is from medicine, and uh, in doing so,
you can he maybe learn a new perspective and learn
(32:00):
something new, learn a new fact or something that you
just that I might have missed. Now that's not just
you know, the political realm right now is about as
polarized as it could possibly be, and it's kind of
the theme of the show. But man, I talk to
my wife all the time and I'm like, hey, you know,
(32:21):
we probably shouldn't be raising our kids doing this and this. No,
she he can. I'm going to help him out and
he can go with his own shoes. Now we have conflict,
Now we have an argument. At that point, I'm like,
I settled back and I was like, Okay, well, what
benefit is it giving him to not go get his
own own shoes? You know what I mean the same
(32:43):
thing with my job. I'm a geologist, and oftentimes I'll
be underground and I'll be standing next to a fellow
geologist and we're looking at a face grade and we're
trying to estimate the amount of mineral that we're seeing
on that face and I'm saying that, dude, I don't know, man,
it's kind of questionable. I think it's like maybe two percent.
(33:06):
Two percent is our cutoff for advancing or And he's like, no,
that's six and a half percent. I'm like, man, are
you crazy. He's like, now it starts to create conflict, right, Well,
I start asking questions.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
I don't want to go too far down the geology
a rabbit hole with you, Isaac, but thank you for
that call. I you know, the question I guess that
I would get from that Governor Edgar is how how
much do you want to argue with somebody versus just
kind of trying to de escalate the situation.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
One of my wife.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
Would tell you that I argue more than I should, uh,
and on all things, not just politics. But you know, again,
I go back to the listening is extremely important. And
if people think you're going to listen to him, then
you know they might go along with some of the
things you want because at least they got a chance
to give their point of view. That's very important. One
(34:04):
of the things my experience with staff and everybody, you
have to all make them feel like they have their input.
In the end, you may not follow it, but they've
got to feel like they had a chance. And if
they feel like they had a chance, and they're going
to be much more apt to accept what the final
policy is. So again, I just think that we need
to listen a lot more and lower the voices. And
(34:27):
I probably ought to do that more myself.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Let's go to another call. Tony is joining us from Oleitha, Kansas. Tony,
did I say that right?
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Oletha?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
I have never been there myself.
Speaker 13 (34:39):
It is it is Alitha, Kansas.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Right, Okay, good, Well, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 13 (34:43):
Tell us what you're thinking, Well, thank you for taking
my call. I am a teacher, and I teach American history,
and I teach Black American history and women's studies. And
I've been listening to the conversation about especially generational conversations.
They are sometimes in conflict, and I just I guess
I want to give some insight that the way that
(35:04):
I was taught history and the way people older than
me I'm in my fifties were taught history is very
different than how this generation is taught history because we
bring in so much more perspective of different minorities and
women in history, and so kids today absolutely understand that
the view of America is very different based on where
(35:25):
you live and your ethnicity and all of that, and
so they're learning a different history. So sometimes I'm educating
parents as well as educating kids, and I think they
just learn a lot more from like in Black history,
about sometimes things weren't the same, you know, based on
where you live and your experiences. So I think that
(35:47):
kids are going home and having completely different conversations with
their parents than they ever would have in the past.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you for that call, Tony Cynthia Wang. What about
the generational part of.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
This, Yeah, I think it's just a great point that
where we all come from different cultures, whether it's a
generational culture or you know, I grew up in Oklahoma,
I lived in Singapore, it was in Michigan, I was
in Boston. Every place had different types of people that
had different worldviews because of how they were brought up.
So I think one thing that's important is that people
(36:21):
realize that we keep hearing about taking the perspective of
the other side, asking why all these things are key
ingredients to really open up the conversation and allow us
to learn from each other.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
You know, we're getting some interesting comments on social media
Lyda in Idaho rights. I think it's easy to encourage
people to be civil and agree to disagree, but we
need to be clear that sometimes people's beliefs result in
real harm and oppression to other people. So for me,
I don't agree to disagree about bigotry. We got to
that a bit earlier, and John writes via email, I've
(36:55):
realized that the key to being able to discuss difficult
topics with someone who disagrees with me is to separate
myself from what I believe. Until I do that, any
disagreement becomes personal governor Edgar, I wonder about that. Do
you have to just be really self aware personally as
you try to do the best you can to be
(37:16):
open to different views?
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Well, again I had to not for maybe the right reason.
I had to just to get something done. I think
it's very important that again we take in the consideration
the other point of view where they're coming from. You know,
somebody grew up in the South side of Chicago's going
to have a little different perspective and somebody who grew
up in southern Illinois. But doesn't mean one's wrong and
(37:40):
one's right. I keep going back to that.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
I think it's.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
Extremely important that we're more tolerant and we're more open
to hearing other points of view. And you know, I
think studies have shown old people. Really old people might
be better at that than people of middle age on
some of the being a little more tolerant tolerant on
some things. So it's it's a challenge, but it's something
(38:06):
that I think we all have to sit back and
just realize, all right, what I thought, maybe that's not
true anymore, and that's not the right approach.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Let's go to another called Bruce is with us from Sarasota, Florida. Bruce,
welcome to the Middle and tell us what's on your mind.
Speaker 12 (38:24):
Hey, Jeremy, thank you, what a great show. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Thank you.
Speaker 12 (38:27):
I served Governor o will Bee before Governor Edgar as
an assistant press secretary, and also went across the river
to Governor Bond as press secretary. So my perspective is
what we did to bring the middle together with the media.
Of course, the media is where you're going to be
speaking to them millions of people, because they're the kind
of people like you. What we actually did, and I
(38:48):
think what's worked is like we talked about before, was
getting to know each other. I had personal and social
sessions with these guys at my home. I bought the
reporters that were left right in the middle together on
a regular basis, and we became friends, and they became
friends with each other. And very much a Governor Edgar's
point about his program where he brings people together and
puts him at a hotel and us to let him out.
(39:10):
I mean, we did the same thing. You couldn't get out,
you had to stay together. And you know that still works.
And why aren't we doing that now? You know, it
seems like we have lost respect in this country. We've
lost respect for each other, we lost respect for law
and order, we left lost respect for all sorts of things.
That's a problem from families, I think, and that's the
whole of the rabbit hole. But that's what we did
(39:31):
in the media side, and we frankly had some very
very good results both in Illinois and in Missouri.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So are you going to take what you did to
the media to New York and Washington and go to
the big networks and try to get them to focus
on the middle more or are we going to be
the only game in town on that front.
Speaker 12 (39:51):
I'm in Governor Editor's court with a lot of gray hair,
four kids out of college, and ten grandchildren, So that's
probably past my point. But if I could be a help,
I would love to join Governor Egar's program in Illinois.
I was born and raised in northern Illinois, so it's
and I went to Momouth College and w r A.
M is where I started my radio business in Mommouth.
So I love that state and I would come back
(40:14):
for a second to be able to do that. So
if you need help, Governor Regor, Okay, I'm gonna.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Keep that in mind.
Speaker 5 (40:19):
Okay, they might be a little too old for the program.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Itself, though, thank you Bruce for that call. You know,
I will say for Dick Ogilvy, you might be older
than me. Even since Bruce brought us to politics. I
do think it's worth noting that as we go live
to air right now, we're on the verge potentially of
a government shutdown, which has a lot to do with
(40:43):
the fact that the two sides won't really talk to
each other. I think I read today that President Biden
and Kevin McCarthy, the House Speaker, Governor Edgar haven't really
been talking to each other at all recently.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Yeah, I think, what what the problem there? You're letting
a very small minority dictate what the majority is going
to do. I just think at some point that's got
to end on either side. I mean, Pelosi had problems
with the far left. McCarthy I think, would like to
cut a deal, but you know he's also got to rule.
He agreed to that. It didn't take much to call
(41:17):
for a vote on the speaker, and that's a thin margin.
I don't I think it goes back to one of
the things I always talk. You know, you want to
be civility, compromise and compassion. Those are three things I
say eric Key to remember, you got to compromise, you
need to be civil.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
But you also have.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
To remember if you don't do your job, if you
let the federal government close down, there's a lot of
little people that are going to get hurt. Not going
to be the politicians, It's going to be the little guy.
And that to me is that's that's a shame. There's
nobody that's in political life should allow that to happen.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Let's go to another call from Gladwin, Pennsylvania, France. Scene
is with us. That's just outside Philadelphia, France. Scene. Welcome
to the middle what's on your mind, Hi.
Speaker 14 (42:07):
Jeremy, and congratulations on your show. We're so excited to
have you back on the air. And I'm calling because
this is so relevant right now. My husband and I
have a lot of social events that we go to,
and we have a lot of acquaintances that we bump
into repeatedly that always the conversation turns to politics, and
(42:27):
if we try to discuss anything, they seem to just
dig their heels in deeper and deeper and it becomes
really unpleasant. And so we have now started to just
avoid people all together. And I thought perhaps somebody on
the panel could help with that.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Thank you Francine for that call. Cynthia Wang, what about that?
Just avoid people if you if you don't want to
talk to them, if they disagree with you.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:52):
The unfortunate part is if we keep avoiding each other, right,
we're just going to go into our separate echo chambers,
and unfortunately, things will get more So I think it's
a good question of you know, what are other options
we can do? And I'm going to go back to
the first caller because I think it was a really
good idea to even structure conversations.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
Right.
Speaker 6 (43:11):
What I mean by that is, hey, hey, you don't
of course, if we just randomly start having a conversation,
both sides will be unprepared, they're going to get defensive.
So why don't you just start a conversation by saying, hey,
let's put some ground rules down. If things start getting heated,
we'll take breaks, we'll take turns, we'll make sure we're
listening to each other, we're getting each other's perspective. I
(43:33):
teach this to my students all the time. You know,
conflicts happen because there's no structure around it. Then the
emotions take over. So if you put a structure on
it and put some assumptions on it, then then it
can be a much more productive conversation.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Governor, I agree. Is that something that you teach people
as they're coming through your program?
Speaker 5 (43:50):
Well, I mean we teach them you respect the other
point of view and you you know, you need to
be civil. It's extremely important that you know you you
show respect for that person by listening to them, and
they have a point of view that might be as
legitimate as your point of view if there're ae hundred
and eighty degrees apart. So it's very important that if
(44:12):
you're going to be able to succeed I think in
not just politics, but in life in general. You've got
to be open to other people's point of view and
find that common ground that we just don't have enough
of in this country.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
I want to get to another call, because this show
is about the calls. It's about you. It's about you
if you're in the middle, geographically, politically, philosophically, being part
of the conversation. And we've gotten to a lot of
great calls today, but let's get to another one. This
is Tom, who's in Minoqua, Wisconsin. Tom, Welcome to the Middle.
Tell us what's on your.
Speaker 15 (44:44):
Mind, father Jeremy. Thanks for taking my call. Austin show
so far I could just kind of wanted to say,
is that. I mean, I'd brought in a paper about
this a few years ago, I think it was in
twenty fourteen, and it's kind of stayed the same. Where
one of the artest things nowadays is that there really
is no more civil discourse. It's really hard to have
(45:05):
a conversation with somebody when it's like it's almost not
even possible. And I mean a lot of the points,
it's lots of propaganda, lots of false information, and it's
like trying to drag somebody through the mud to even
just look at these statistics. It's just very difficult. And
I mean I think what y'all have been saying earlier
about how it's basically there's grains of truth in something
(45:31):
that you don't like. You need to work on both
sides that come together to find a middle ground. I mean,
there's something called Hegel's dialectic where we'll go to two
different extremes before we can start to even agree on something.
So I just wish there was more civil discourse, and
like good civil discourse. So that's about all I.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Have to say, Tom, thank you so much for that call.
Cynthia Wang, I'll just go to you on that one.
More civil discourse. I mean, that's what this is all about.
Speaker 6 (45:57):
Yeah, yeah, it is hard because I think people are
focused on the today. But even as the person talked
about talking with his grandfather, you know, everybody, we actually
have some similar interests. We all want the US to
be better, we want America to thrive, and if there's
a way to kind of focus on that ultimate goal,
(46:17):
even start by saying, hey, this is our ultimate goal.
We have the similarity, it can hopefully reshift the conversation
into another direction.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
I want to just check in on social media as
we close out this hour. Kate from Denver writes to
us and Listen to the Middle dot com, I have
forty two first cousins, Talliver. I don't know if that's
really That sounds alike a lot, but we're going to
trust Kate on this one. I have forty two first
cousins who span the political spectrum. One cousin and I
have regular conversations on politics. We talk calmly off and
(46:46):
over text. When we get emotional, we take breaks, kind
of like we were just hearing. Sandy writes, how do
you talk politics with people you disagree with? Be fearlessly curious?
Thank you Sandy for that comment, and thanks to everybody
for calling in to our number on our very first
show of the Middle, and also for writing to us
at Listen to the Middle dot com. We do have
(47:07):
time for a game? Uh now, since since we have
a new Darren as I said, new Bewitched Darren Dolliver,
we have a new game. It's similar but different, Tolliver,
what is the game?
Speaker 7 (47:16):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (47:16):
First off, never thought I'd be doing trivia with Governor
Jim Edgar. Amazing life goal. Accomplished the game is very simple, y'all.
I'm gonna play a drum beat from a famous song
by a famous act. You name the act, you name
the song, you win the governorship.
Speaker 5 (47:32):
Well set of the music you've been playing. I don't
think I was.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
I mean, let's see if you can get this lost
my hearing by the time you're gonna I think you're
gonna have a good chance of this one. Let's let's
hear it. Whose drum line is it? Anyway? Here you go,
whoever gets it first.
Speaker 6 (47:50):
Come together.
Speaker 12 (47:53):
We gotta work.
Speaker 6 (47:54):
Yeah, I was trying to give some time.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
All Right, you've got it, you're governor. Guess yeah, hear
that here.
Speaker 6 (48:05):
Well.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I want to thank my guest, Governor Jim Edgar, the
former Republican governor of Illinois. Governor Edgar has been great
having you on the show. Thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
Good to be in with you.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
And Cynthia Wang, who heads the Dispute Resolution Research Center
at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. Cynthia Wang, thanks.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
To you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Thank you so much, and a big thank you to
our DJ Tolliver. We want to invite you to join
us next week, same time, same place, Tolliver, What is
the topic for our show next week?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
How are higher interest rates and inflation affecting you?
Speaker 1 (48:39):
And the reason we're giving you that now is because
not everyone is listening to this show live, but we
want to hear from you. Either way, you can reach
out to us at eight four four for Middle and
leave us a voicemail or call in live next week,
or you can go to Listen to the Middle dot
com to drop us a line while you're there. By
the way, sign up for our weekly newsletter as well.
That's a Listen to the Middle dot com. The Middle
is brought to you by Long Nook Media and produced
(49:00):
by joe An Jennings, John Barth, Harrison Patino, and Danny Alexander.
Our digital producer is Charlie Little. Our technical director is
Jason croft Here at Illinois Public Media, and help here
came from Lily Duncanson, Liz Westfield, Reginald Hardwick, and Moss Bresnahan.
Our theme music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks also
to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia and the more than three
(49:21):
hundred and seventy public radio stations that are making it
possible for people across the country to listen to the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. Thanks for joining us. Talk to you
next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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