July 7, 2023 • 30 mins
Let's delve into an under-discussed topic — the intersection of autism and non-monogamy. I talk about the differences between polyamory and open relationships, and challenge the stereotype that autistic individuals are incapable of or uninterested in sexual relationships. Drawing from research and personal experiences, I discuss why autistic individuals are more inclined towards non-monogamous relationships.
If you'd like to know more about topics discussed in this episode, check out:
"Neurodiversity and Relationship Variation: Why Some With Autism or ADHD Are Drawn to Consensual Nonmonogamy and/or BDSM" by Elisabeth A. Sheff
"Polyamory vs. an Open Relationship: What's the Difference?" by Emma Singer
"An Exploration of Why Autistic Adults Are Practicing Consensual Non-Monogamy" by Janet Walsh and Mark Stokes
"I'm Autistic and Polyamorous. Here's Why It Works for Me" by Leanne Yau
The Letters of Abelard and Heloise translated by Betty Radice
Episode outro music: "Go to Hell" by Mindme
Theme music: "Everything Feels New" by Evgeny Bardyuzha.
All episodes written and produced by Kristen Hovet.
Send in your questions or thoughts via audio or video recording for a chance to be featured on the show! Email your audio or video clips to otherautism@gmail.com through WeTransfer.
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The views, opinions, and experiences shared by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or production team. The content is intended for informational purposes only and should not be taken as medical or professional advice. Please consult with a qualified healthcare provider before making any decisions related to your health, fitness, or wellness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristen (00:00):
Hello and welcome to season three.
I realize I was only going totake a couple of weeks off
between seasons, but here we areit's July.
I've literally had zero timebetween work and school and
volunteering and life stuff, andI also decided to put out a
(00:20):
survey to ensure I'm on theright track for this season.
That survey was prompted,autism style, by a night of
insomnia where my brain decidedto outline all the possible ways
that this podcast might suck orannoy listeners.
But before I give a briefoverview of the survey results,
(00:43):
I wanted to share some updates.
Between seasons I completed somemajor assignments for this
semester of my Master of HealthStudies degree.
Thi s is my second to lastsemester and also happens to be
the heaviest semester of myprogram.
I also moved to the interior ofmy province.
(01:03):
I'm in British Columbia, Canada, and everyone who's not from
Canada seems to think the momentyou cross the line from the US
into Canada it's all snow andpolar bears.
Well, I've never seen a polarbear in my life, at least I
don't think I have, maybe in azoo, not sure.
(01:24):
And the south of BritishColumbia, especially near the
coast, is quite temperate andsummers are generally far hotter
than even many areas inCalifornia that I've spent lots
of time in, like San Francisco.
Where I am now in the interiorin the Okanagan, it's actually
(01:45):
considered a desert climate.
And some days are on par withScottsdale, Arizona, where I
spent part of my childhood.
Super hot in the summer.
However, unlike most of Arizona, it's cold and snowy in the
winter, so there's some coolseasons going on.
You still get that change inseasons.
I actually took somearchaeology classes in
(02:08):
university and learned that thisarea was once a jungle.
True story and there are manydinosaur and jungly plant
fossils to prove it.
Ok, so the survey.
I laughed out loud at theresults for the music question,
in particular, which was, do youthink the intro music,
(02:31):
typically played after the todaywe're talking about
announcement, should be kept thesame length, shortened,
lengthened, or removed?
About half of you want me tokeep the introductory music as
is, while about half of you wantme to reduce or remove it.
Then there are about 5% of youwho want more of that music, as
(02:55):
in, you want that sectionlengthened.
All told, I'm going to err onthe side of caution and remove
that extra music so as not toannoy around half of you.
I'm clearly jonesing for musicin my life, and so I've actually
started another projectaltogether that involves music.
More on that sometime later.
(03:16):
Although half of you probablydon't care.
In terms of other surveyresults, almost all of you like
equally the interview episodesand the lecture episodes where
it's just me talking, so I'mgoing to continue as is in that
(03:36):
department.
This season does start out witha few back-to-back interview
episodes, at least that's what Ihave planned, but I will get
back to the lecturey episodesvery shortly following those, or
I might kind of intersperse thelecturey ones with the
interview ones, depending howthe schedule goes.
I've got an interview with alate diagnosed autistic adult
(04:00):
for you coming up, and then onewith a neurodivergent
occupational therapist, and thenone with a therapist who's
discovering her own potentialneurodivergence.
She's right there in the thickof it, and part of the content
she stumbled on included theaccompanying website to this
(04:21):
very podcast.
I can't wait for you to hearthose interviews and super
excited for the other guestsI've also got planned for this
season.
Now to get a bit serious for asecond, I wanted to talk about
something very important as areminder to listeners as we
(04:41):
start season three and as wegrow as a community of listeners
.
This podcast has grownexponentially.
It's grown far more quicklythan I could ever have expected,
which I am so, so grateful for.
I'm getting goosebumps justsaying this.
It's blown my mind.
(05:02):
The growth is due in large partto all of you.
You share episodes with family,with friends, and even with
doctors and therapists.
You rate and review the podcast.
You talk about it on socialmedia and in forums.
I want to say a massive thankyou.
This podcast couldn't be whereit is today without you.
(05:24):
But with more listeners comesmore emails, and I'm still a one
person plus one cat show, andthe one cat doesn't do much of
anything.
So anyway, I've noticed amatching massive increase in the
number of emails I receive.
Now I love getting emails fromyou.
Love, love, love, love, love.
(05:46):
I would say most of you writein to say thank you, to share a
bit of your own story, to tellme the ways that the podcast has
helped you, and I am moved totears very, very often.
You also send in questions ortopics you'd like to see covered
in future episodes.
So a lot of what I talk abouthere, even the guests that I
(06:09):
bring on are often inspireddirectly from the emails that I
compile and save and take noteson.
But I've also noticed anincrease in emails asking for
direct advice and even help, andsometimes the tone is urgent,
where it's clear the individualwriting to me is in full blown
(06:29):
crisis mode.
I wanted to let you know that Iam deeply impacted by these
emails and feel very stronglythat I wish I could do something
to make things better for you,something more than just sending
an email with some links orsome suggestions that I have off
the top of my head.
I wanted to say that I've beenwhere you are more times than I
(06:53):
can count.
And please know that I'mreading and hearing you.
However, I wanted to remindlisteners that I'm not a mental
health practitioner.
For this reason, I cannot givemental health help or advice.
I can give you links to otherplaces you can go to seek those
things, but I'm no longer, like,it's just not something I can
(07:15):
do anymore.
Just given the volume, I'm nolonger able to even reply to a
lot of the emails when it comesto folks asking for help.
I get also a lot of emailsasking for recommendations on
who to see for assessments ortherapy or general advice in
that department.
Please understand that if Icontinue to do this, it could
(07:37):
very well become a full-time job.
For my own health andwell-being and for the longevity
of this podcast, as one personwriting and producing it on top
of having a full-time job andbeing in school, I simply cannot
continue to do this at thistime.
I do, however, continue to readand save every single email I
(07:58):
receive.
I treasure these and take everyword to heart.
Like I said before, your emailsare building this podcast every
step of the way.
If you'd find it helpful,please let me know, you can do
so through email, link is in theshow notes, or through
Instagram.
If you find this helpful, Icould put a post on my website
(08:20):
about who diagnosed me and somegeneral high level advice when
seeking an adult assessment.
Otherwise, you can find thisinformation spread throughout
earlier episodes of this podcast, either content about my own
experience or the experiencesthat many of my guests share,
and you can also turn tosearching online or visiting
(08:41):
forums, where sometimes theinformation is broken down
regionally, where you can go andsearch forum posts by place.
Due to changes brought about byCOVID, many psychologists who
conduct autism assessments arestill providing assessments
virtually, so definitely takeadvantage of this.
Keep in mind, however, thatgenerally speaking, as far as I
(09:05):
know, in most places in theworld, the assessor will need to
be licensed in your province orstate if you want the diagnosis
to be official and recognizedby your state or provincial
government.
Also, a word about theInstagram account that goes
along with this podcast.
It's called Other AutismPodcast, all one word.
Thank you to those who followed.
(09:27):
I realize I'm not very active onthere right now, but I do have
plans to become more active assoon as my last semester is over
in December.
I will have a bit more time andI have lots of ideas for reels
and other content.
Adorably, in the survey,someone asked to hear from my
cat, Toby, more often, so I'llsee what I can do there.
(09:50):
He's not always a willingparticipant and sometimes he's
way too involved.
I'll try to strike a balancewith my co-host, Toby Tobias
Toberton, the first and only.
Someone also suggested that Iinclude transcripts with each
episode.
I actually have been includingtranscripts and you can find
(10:13):
those on Buzzsprout.
The link to the Buzzsproutwebsite for The Other Autism
will be in the show notes.
I also wanted to thank thenewest sponsors of the show,
Suzanne, Health, and Carolyn.
Thank you so, so much.
And if you would like to becomea sponsor yourself and help
keep this podcast going andgrowing, there are links in the
(10:35):
show notes that say support theshow or become a supporter of
the show for as little as $3 amonth.
Okay, now to get to thenon-monogamy part of this
episode.
No, the title was not clickbait, I'm really going to talk about
non-monogamy.
This topic came from bothlistener suggestions and from me
(10:57):
listening to an episode calledNeurodivergence and Sex with
Talisin Switch from theNeurodivergent Woman podcast.
I listened to this episodebetween the break between season
two and three, and in thisepisode they mentioned that
autistic and otherneurodivergent folks make up a
huge portion, if not a majority,of non-monogamous or
(11:20):
polyamorous communities.
My ears perked up when I heardthis, so I decided to do some
digging, and indeed it is asthey say.
Curious.
While there aren't many studieslooking at this topic directly,
there are a few, as well asmany, many anecdotal accounts,
(11:42):
including clinical accounts frommental health professionals,
about the strong overlap they'venoticed between neurodivergence
, neuroqueer identities, andrelationship variation,
including various forms ofnon-monogamy, especially
polyamory, where a person oftenhas one primary romantic
(12:03):
relationship.
For example, this may be theperson they spend the most time
with and or live with, and oneor more additional romantic
relationships, sometimes calledsecondary relationships.
Polyamorous relationships areusually sexual, but they aren't
always.
Polyamorous relationshipsdiffer from other forms of
(12:24):
non-monogamy in that polyamorousrelationships involve the
informed consent of all partners.
It's not swinging, it's notcheating, it's not sleeping
around, it's not one-nightstands.
It's ethical or consensualnon-monogamy.
In polyamory, the focus is onthe relationships, the love
(12:45):
bonds, the emotional connections, and less on sex.
Interestingly, polyamory differsfrom open relationships.
In open relationships, a coupleusually agrees that having sex
with other people is okay, andthey may or may not agree to
inform each other of anyencounters they might have with
others.
(13:05):
In open relationships, theemphasis is on the sexual aspect
of these additional encounters.
Emma Singer, in an articleabout the differences and
similarities between polyamoryand open relationships, writes,
quote, both relationship stylesrepresent a rejection of the
more traditional monogamouscoupling in favor of a less
(13:27):
constricting experience ofromance.
It's also worth noting that inboth polyamorous and open
relationships, unhealthy powerdynamics shouldn't be present
and boundaries must be discussedand mutually agreed upon before
the arrangement is underway andconsistently thereafter, lest
it turn into a not-so-ethicalnon-monogamous situation, end
(13:50):
quote.
Before I go any further, I wantto address a strange myth about
autistic people, and that is themyth that autistic people
aren't sexual or don't haveromantic and or sexual
relationships or needs ordesires.
While autistics are indeed morelikely to report being asexual,
(14:13):
they're also more likely toreport having sex and actually
having having sex as a specialinterest.
So just saying.
A nywho, what we can gatherfrom this is that autistics are
more likely to report sexualvariation in general than
non-autistics.
(14:33):
Also, research has found thatautistic people want and benefit
from a variety of relationshipsto a similar, if not same
degree, as non-autistic people.
These relationships includeplatonic aka friendship-based,
romantic, physical, sexual youknow all the kinds of
(14:54):
relationships.
Also, in recent research andanecdotal accounts, as I've
mentioned earlier, autisticfolks are more likely to report
being in polyamorous orotherwise non-monogamous
relationships.
Why is this?
There are many theories as wellas accounts written by autistic
people telling us why theyprefer non-monogamy over
(15:16):
monogamy.
Here are some reasons which Iwill number, but these are
listed in no particular order.
Number one autistics are farmore likely than non-autistics
to identify as LGBTQIA+, andthis community has historically
been more involved innon-monogamy than heterosexuals.
(15:37):
What your peers are involvedwith, you are more likely to be
involved with, or at least learnmore about, simply by
association.
Also, when you're surrounded bypeople exploring sexuality and
gender identity, this tends tolead to increased awareness of
these topics and greater chanceof wondering about these things
(16:00):
for yourself.
Number two autistics, especiallyfemale autistics, some experts
have noted, tend to be morelikely to stay in long-term
relationships that no longerserve them.
And so non-monogamy for some ofthese folks becomes a way to
explore new relationships andnew romantic or sexual
(16:21):
connections outside of theirprimary relationship, which they
may retain because that's whatthey know and are comfortable
with and or as a way to avoidcausing pain to their primary
partner.
I can definitely relate to thisone.
More on that later.
Number three many of those whoprefer non-monogamy state that
(16:45):
they love having autonomy overtheir living space and full
control of their schedule.
They prefer to come and go asthey please, so not having one
partner or being a secondarypartner is conducive to this
type of lifestyle, or at leasttends to be.
Number four autistic folks aremore likely to challenge
(17:08):
societal conventions in generalthan non-autistic folks, and of
course that includesrelationship conventions.
This seems built into our DNAin many ways to question
conventions, to challenge theconventions of society, just in
all different facets, alldifferent levels and ways.
(17:29):
It just seems like how ourbrains work, I don't know.
Also, ethical or consensualnon-monogamy involves a series
of agreements and clearexpectations, making such
arrangements comforting and veryin line with how our brains
tend to work.
It should be noted in all thisthat being autistic doesn't mean
(17:51):
the person's automatically intonon-monogamy.
We're just as diverse and asvaried as non-autistics, maybe
even more so, so you reallycan't build any preconceived
ideas just from knowing ourneurotype.
I want to read a quote fromLeanne Yau, a polyamorous
autistic person.
She writes, quote, beingautistic benefits my polyamory
(18:16):
and being polyamorous benefitsmy autism.
I love and embrace bothidentities and see them as
inherently tied.
I also see my autism as tied tomy queerness.
Gender, like monogamy, was aconcept that never really made
sense to me and I was more thanwilling to throw the traditional
(18:38):
societal scripts out the windowso I could write my own.
The queer and polyamorouscommunities both embrace being
unconventional in a way thatgives me a sense of belonging.
I feel most at home among othergroups that are frequently
ostracized by society, unquote.
From my own experience as alate diagnosed autistic,
(19:01):
bisexual femme, yes, the peopleI hung out with in high school
and in adulthood have been morelikely to have these
non-monogamous ideals.
This simply meant that I learnedmore about non-monogamy and
polyamory perhaps much earlierthan my non-neurodivergent peers
(19:24):
and friends.
I was reading books aboutnon-monogamy about a decade
before non-monogamy andpolyamory hit the popular press
or was big in the news.
But apart from a few, shall wesay, experimental phases in my
20s, I have been prettystaunchly monogamous.
I have a conservativeevangelical bordering on
(19:47):
fundamentalist Christian past,so it was very hard for me to
both embrace my sexual identityand any non-monogamous
relationship variations.
I really, really had to studyand think hard about it.
As a little Christian girlgrowing up in the Bible Belt and
(20:08):
then moving to Canada andinstantly getting involved in a
church, I got married when I was19 to my church's worship
pastor, and then I startedreading all kinds of things and
thinking very deeply andconversing with a wide array of
people from many walks of life,and this led to starting to
(20:30):
question a lot of the ideals,beliefs, and general worldview
that I was raised with.
Oddly enough, one of the booksthat had the biggest impact on
me was the Letters of Abelardand Heloise, real letters
between a 12th century Frenchtheologian and philosopher,
(20:51):
Peter Abelard, and his pupilHeloise, both members of the
Catholic Church.
They eventually had a secretlove affair and a secret baby
and eventually got married insecret.
But the two were notcomfortable with the whole
marriage thing.
And Peter's family found outabout the whole thing and
(21:14):
castrated him and forced him tobecome a monk.
You think Romeo and Juliet wastragic?
I mean, read Abelard andHeloise.
Anyway, I was super moved bypretty much anything Heloise
wrote, in particular.
One of her letters really stoodout.
Google (21:34):
The name of mistress instead of wife would be dearer
and more honorable to me.
Only love given freely, ratherthan the constriction of the
marriage tie, is of significanceto an ideal relationship.
Kristen (21:47):
And my absolute favorite.
Google (21:50):
And if the name of wife appears more sacred and more
valid, sweeter to me is ever theword friend or, if you be not
ashamed, concubine or whore.
Kristen (22:00):
Preach.
Anyway.
So, 19 and 20 year old me,already married, accosting
myself daily with the letters ofsome medieval horn dogs which
were ripping the proverbialcarpet right out from beneath me
in terms of the epistemologicalfoundations upon which all of
(22:25):
my beliefs were built.
Add in some other philosophy, Imean, I started reading
Nietzsche.
I was reading all kinds ofthings, you know.
But I remember staring at mybeautiful sparkling wedding ring
, latched tightly on my ringfinger, and thinking, dang it,
(22:46):
dang it, I'm some owned thing,I'm a wife, I'm a wife, ahh! And
I will say that my thinking ismore nuanced these days.
Heck, maybe I will get marriedsomeday, I don't know.
But that's a bit of my thoughtprocess from back then.
The words went round and roundin my head.
(23:10):
Far sweeter to me, as ever, thewords friend, concubine, whore.
Far sweeter to me.
I think the letters of Abelardand Heloise were so impactful,
not only because of how theywere written and the incredible
story they told, but because Ihad a lot of the same beliefs
(23:33):
then that they had back in the12th century.
I really did see the world insome very similar ways, so that
they were contesting aspects ofa good Christian life in such a
way that resulted in a series ofdirect hits to my beliefs and
my ideals, specifically aroundmarriage and love.
(23:54):
I took it all very seriously.
I stayed in my marriage, however, for several more years, but my
commitment to marriage as ageneral concept, as a construct,
and as an institution was dealtsome serious blows right out of
the gate.
I don't think my marriage stooda chance.
(24:17):
Not to mention I married waytoo young and had a lot of
growing to do.
I'd eventually leave my faith,then leave my marriage, and then
I went a bit bonkers forseveral years.
But during that time I reallydiscovered who I was.
I got in touch with mysexuality, my beliefs, my
(24:37):
preferences, what I liked, whatI didn't like, and so on.
My faith and my deep devotionto it had, I think, caused a
kind of arrested development inthat whole department, and so I
did in my late 20s what a lot offolks in their late teens and
or early 20s do.
But after a few years of datingand not taking things too
(25:00):
seriously, I eventually got backinto a long-term monogamous
relationship that lasted over adecade, but I never stopped
questioning the ethics ofmonogamy.
I never felt comfortablefeeling like someone's property
or that I couldn't experienceanother person sexually ever
again.
As a super loyal person,however, I never went against my
(25:25):
partner's preference formonogamy.
Never.
And now here I am once again,single, ready to, well, you know
! I'm being silly, but for real,here I am once again
questioning monogamy and reallynot wanting to go back to it.
I mean, who knows, maybe oneday or one person will change
(25:46):
all that, but here it is rightnow, here I am.
I also want to give an importantreminder that being bisexual or
queer or autistic ornon-monogamous does not make a
person more willing to do crazystuff.
I feel like, when I'vedisclosed these parts of myself,
some people make the very wrongassumption that I'm super,
(26:09):
de-duper, de-sexual and up foranything they want.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
I mean, perhaps I'm more intouch with my sexuality than the
average Joe, but I'm verydiscerning.
I have very specific tastes andI'm very picky.
I don't go around desiringanyone and everyone that moves
(26:30):
and being up for anything.
I know this is true for me andI know this is true for many
others who share the same orsimilar identities.
Just be mindful of that.
Challenge your knee-jerkresponses and even your
automatic thoughts and judgmentsthat arise when you hear words
like non-monogamy and polyamory,or even neuroqueer, bisexual,
(26:52):
pansexual.
The list goes on.
I'd love to hear your stories,if you're willing to share them,
about your own journey to andfrom non-monogamy, monogamy, any
of the things we've talkedabout in this episode.
Well, that's all I have for youtoday.
Episode one of season three, ahh! Thank you so much for being
(27:19):
here.
Until next time, bye.
(28:34):
Where's the cookie?
What's this?
What's this?
Maybe if you could help edit!Are you gonna help edit this
episode?
Make yourself useful.
Don't purr at me.
Do you want this?
(28:54):
What?
What do you say?
Hello and welcome to season three.
I realize I was only going totake a couple of weeks off
between seasons, but here we areit's July.
I've literally had zero timebetween work and school and
volunteering and life stuff, andI also decided to put out a
(00:20):
survey to ensure I'm on theright track for this season.
That survey was prompted,autism style, by a night of
insomnia where my brain decidedto outline all the possible ways
that this podcast might suck orannoy listeners.
But before I give a briefoverview of the survey results,
(00:43):
I wanted to share some updates.
Between seasons I completed somemajor assignments for this
semester of my Master of HealthStudies degree.
Thi s is my second to lastsemester and also happens to be
the heaviest semester of myprogram.
I also moved to the interior ofmy province.
(01:03):
I'm in British Columbia, Canada, and everyone who's not from
Canada seems to think the momentyou cross the line from the US
into Canada it's all snow andpolar bears.
Well, I've never seen a polarbear in my life, at least I
don't think I have, maybe in azoo, not sure.
(01:24):
And the south of BritishColumbia, especially near the
coast, is quite temperate andsummers are generally far hotter
than even many areas inCalifornia that I've spent lots
of time in, like San Francisco.
Where I am now in the interiorin the Okanagan, it's actually
(01:45):
considered a desert climate.
And some days are on par withScottsdale, Arizona, where I
spent part of my childhood.
Super hot in the summer.
However, unlike most of Arizona, it's cold and snowy in the
winter, so there's some coolseasons going on.
You still get that change inseasons.
I actually took somearchaeology classes in
(02:08):
university and learned that thisarea was once a jungle.
True story and there are manydinosaur and jungly plant
fossils to prove it.
Ok, so the survey.
I laughed out loud at theresults for the music question,
in particular, which was, do youthink the intro music,
(02:31):
typically played after the todaywe're talking about
announcement, should be kept thesame length, shortened,
lengthened, or removed?
About half of you want me tokeep the introductory music as
is, while about half of you wantme to reduce or remove it.
Then there are about 5% of youwho want more of that music, as
(02:55):
in, you want that sectionlengthened.
All told, I'm going to err onthe side of caution and remove
that extra music so as not toannoy around half of you.
I'm clearly jonesing for musicin my life, and so I've actually
started another projectaltogether that involves music.
More on that sometime later.
(03:16):
Although half of you probablydon't care.
In terms of other surveyresults, almost all of you like
equally the interview episodesand the lecture episodes where
it's just me talking, so I'mgoing to continue as is in that
(03:36):
department.
This season does start out witha few back-to-back interview
episodes, at least that's what Ihave planned, but I will get
back to the lecturey episodesvery shortly following those, or
I might kind of intersperse thelecturey ones with the
interview ones, depending howthe schedule goes.
I've got an interview with alate diagnosed autistic adult
(04:00):
for you coming up, and then onewith a neurodivergent
occupational therapist, and thenone with a therapist who's
discovering her own potentialneurodivergence.
She's right there in the thickof it, and part of the content
she stumbled on included theaccompanying website to this
(04:21):
very podcast.
I can't wait for you to hearthose interviews and super
excited for the other guestsI've also got planned for this
season.
Now to get a bit serious for asecond, I wanted to talk about
something very important as areminder to listeners as we
(04:41):
start season three and as wegrow as a community of listeners
.
This podcast has grownexponentially.
It's grown far more quicklythan I could ever have expected,
which I am so, so grateful for.
I'm getting goosebumps justsaying this.
It's blown my mind.
(05:02):
The growth is due in large partto all of you.
You share episodes with family,with friends, and even with
doctors and therapists.
You rate and review the podcast.
You talk about it on socialmedia and in forums.
I want to say a massive thankyou.
This podcast couldn't be whereit is today without you.
(05:24):
But with more listeners comesmore emails, and I'm still a one
person plus one cat show, andthe one cat doesn't do much of
anything.
So anyway, I've noticed amatching massive increase in the
number of emails I receive.
Now I love getting emails fromyou.
Love, love, love, love, love.
(05:46):
I would say most of you writein to say thank you, to share a
bit of your own story, to tellme the ways that the podcast has
helped you, and I am moved totears very, very often.
You also send in questions ortopics you'd like to see covered
in future episodes.
So a lot of what I talk abouthere, even the guests that I
(06:09):
bring on are often inspireddirectly from the emails that I
compile and save and take noteson.
But I've also noticed anincrease in emails asking for
direct advice and even help, andsometimes the tone is urgent,
where it's clear the individualwriting to me is in full blown
(06:29):
crisis mode.
I wanted to let you know that Iam deeply impacted by these
emails and feel very stronglythat I wish I could do something
to make things better for you,something more than just sending
an email with some links orsome suggestions that I have off
the top of my head.
I wanted to say that I've beenwhere you are more times than I
(06:53):
can count.
And please know that I'mreading and hearing you.
However, I wanted to remindlisteners that I'm not a mental
health practitioner.
For this reason, I cannot givemental health help or advice.
I can give you links to otherplaces you can go to seek those
things, but I'm no longer, like,it's just not something I can
(07:15):
do anymore.
Just given the volume, I'm nolonger able to even reply to a
lot of the emails when it comesto folks asking for help.
I get also a lot of emailsasking for recommendations on
who to see for assessments ortherapy or general advice in
that department.
Please understand that if Icontinue to do this, it could
(07:37):
very well become a full-time job.
For my own health andwell-being and for the longevity
of this podcast, as one personwriting and producing it on top
of having a full-time job andbeing in school, I simply cannot
continue to do this at thistime.
I do, however, continue to readand save every single email I
(07:58):
receive.
I treasure these and take everyword to heart.
Like I said before, your emailsare building this podcast every
step of the way.
If you'd find it helpful,please let me know, you can do
so through email, link is in theshow notes, or through
Instagram.
If you find this helpful, Icould put a post on my website
(08:20):
about who diagnosed me and somegeneral high level advice when
seeking an adult assessment.
Otherwise, you can find thisinformation spread throughout
earlier episodes of this podcast, either content about my own
experience or the experiencesthat many of my guests share,
and you can also turn tosearching online or visiting
(08:41):
forums, where sometimes theinformation is broken down
regionally, where you can go andsearch forum posts by place.
Due to changes brought about byCOVID, many psychologists who
conduct autism assessments arestill providing assessments
virtually, so definitely takeadvantage of this.
Keep in mind, however, thatgenerally speaking, as far as I
(09:05):
know, in most places in theworld, the assessor will need to
be licensed in your province orstate if you want the diagnosis
to be official and recognizedby your state or provincial
government.
Also, a word about theInstagram account that goes
along with this podcast.
It's called Other AutismPodcast, all one word.
Thank you to those who followed.
(09:27):
I realize I'm not very active onthere right now, but I do have
plans to become more active assoon as my last semester is over
in December.
I will have a bit more time andI have lots of ideas for reels
and other content.
Adorably, in the survey,someone asked to hear from my
cat, Toby, more often, so I'llsee what I can do there.
(09:50):
He's not always a willingparticipant and sometimes he's
way too involved.
I'll try to strike a balancewith my co-host, Toby Tobias
Toberton, the first and only.
Someone also suggested that Iinclude transcripts with each
episode.
I actually have been includingtranscripts and you can find
(10:13):
those on Buzzsprout.
The link to the Buzzsproutwebsite for The Other Autism
will be in the show notes.
I also wanted to thank thenewest sponsors of the show,
Suzanne, Health, and Carolyn.
Thank you so, so much.
And if you would like to becomea sponsor yourself and help
keep this podcast going andgrowing, there are links in the
(10:35):
show notes that say support theshow or become a supporter of
the show for as little as $3 amonth.
Okay, now to get to thenon-monogamy part of this
episode.
No, the title was not clickbait, I'm really going to talk about
non-monogamy.
This topic came from bothlistener suggestions and from me
(10:57):
listening to an episode calledNeurodivergence and Sex with
Talisin Switch from theNeurodivergent Woman podcast.
I listened to this episodebetween the break between season
two and three, and in thisepisode they mentioned that
autistic and otherneurodivergent folks make up a
huge portion, if not a majority,of non-monogamous or
(11:20):
polyamorous communities.
My ears perked up when I heardthis, so I decided to do some
digging, and indeed it is asthey say.
Curious.
While there aren't many studieslooking at this topic directly,
there are a few, as well asmany, many anecdotal accounts,
(11:42):
including clinical accounts frommental health professionals,
about the strong overlap they'venoticed between neurodivergence
, neuroqueer identities, andrelationship variation,
including various forms ofnon-monogamy, especially
polyamory, where a person oftenhas one primary romantic
(12:03):
relationship.
For example, this may be theperson they spend the most time
with and or live with, and oneor more additional romantic
relationships, sometimes calledsecondary relationships.
Polyamorous relationships areusually sexual, but they aren't
always.
Polyamorous relationshipsdiffer from other forms of
(12:24):
non-monogamy in that polyamorousrelationships involve the
informed consent of all partners.
It's not swinging, it's notcheating, it's not sleeping
around, it's not one-nightstands.
It's ethical or consensualnon-monogamy.
In polyamory, the focus is onthe relationships, the love
(12:45):
bonds, the emotional connections, and less on sex.
Interestingly, polyamory differsfrom open relationships.
In open relationships, a coupleusually agrees that having sex
with other people is okay, andthey may or may not agree to
inform each other of anyencounters they might have with
others.
(13:05):
In open relationships, theemphasis is on the sexual aspect
of these additional encounters.
Emma Singer, in an articleabout the differences and
similarities between polyamoryand open relationships, writes,
quote, both relationship stylesrepresent a rejection of the
more traditional monogamouscoupling in favor of a less
(13:27):
constricting experience ofromance.
It's also worth noting that inboth polyamorous and open
relationships, unhealthy powerdynamics shouldn't be present
and boundaries must be discussedand mutually agreed upon before
the arrangement is underway andconsistently thereafter, lest
it turn into a not-so-ethicalnon-monogamous situation, end
(13:50):
quote.
Before I go any further, I wantto address a strange myth about
autistic people, and that is themyth that autistic people
aren't sexual or don't haveromantic and or sexual
relationships or needs ordesires.
While autistics are indeed morelikely to report being asexual,
(14:13):
they're also more likely toreport having sex and actually
having having sex as a specialinterest.
So just saying.
A nywho, what we can gatherfrom this is that autistics are
more likely to report sexualvariation in general than
non-autistics.
(14:33):
Also, research has found thatautistic people want and benefit
from a variety of relationshipsto a similar, if not same
degree, as non-autistic people.
These relationships includeplatonic aka friendship-based,
romantic, physical, sexual youknow all the kinds of
(14:54):
relationships.
Also, in recent research andanecdotal accounts, as I've
mentioned earlier, autisticfolks are more likely to report
being in polyamorous orotherwise non-monogamous
relationships.
Why is this?
There are many theories as wellas accounts written by autistic
people telling us why theyprefer non-monogamy over
(15:16):
monogamy.
Here are some reasons which Iwill number, but these are
listed in no particular order.
Number one autistics are farmore likely than non-autistics
to identify as LGBTQIA+, andthis community has historically
been more involved innon-monogamy than heterosexuals.
(15:37):
What your peers are involvedwith, you are more likely to be
involved with, or at least learnmore about, simply by
association.
Also, when you're surrounded bypeople exploring sexuality and
gender identity, this tends tolead to increased awareness of
these topics and greater chanceof wondering about these things
(16:00):
for yourself.
Number two autistics, especiallyfemale autistics, some experts
have noted, tend to be morelikely to stay in long-term
relationships that no longerserve them.
And so non-monogamy for some ofthese folks becomes a way to
explore new relationships andnew romantic or sexual
(16:21):
connections outside of theirprimary relationship, which they
may retain because that's whatthey know and are comfortable
with and or as a way to avoidcausing pain to their primary
partner.
I can definitely relate to thisone.
More on that later.
Number three many of those whoprefer non-monogamy state that
(16:45):
they love having autonomy overtheir living space and full
control of their schedule.
They prefer to come and go asthey please, so not having one
partner or being a secondarypartner is conducive to this
type of lifestyle, or at leasttends to be.
Number four autistic folks aremore likely to challenge
(17:08):
societal conventions in generalthan non-autistic folks, and of
course that includesrelationship conventions.
This seems built into our DNAin many ways to question
conventions, to challenge theconventions of society, just in
all different facets, alldifferent levels and ways.
(17:29):
It just seems like how ourbrains work, I don't know.
Also, ethical or consensualnon-monogamy involves a series
of agreements and clearexpectations, making such
arrangements comforting and veryin line with how our brains
tend to work.
It should be noted in all thisthat being autistic doesn't mean
(17:51):
the person's automatically intonon-monogamy.
We're just as diverse and asvaried as non-autistics, maybe
even more so, so you reallycan't build any preconceived
ideas just from knowing ourneurotype.
I want to read a quote fromLeanne Yau, a polyamorous
autistic person.
She writes, quote, beingautistic benefits my polyamory
(18:16):
and being polyamorous benefitsmy autism.
I love and embrace bothidentities and see them as
inherently tied.
I also see my autism as tied tomy queerness.
Gender, like monogamy, was aconcept that never really made
sense to me and I was more thanwilling to throw the traditional
(18:38):
societal scripts out the windowso I could write my own.
The queer and polyamorouscommunities both embrace being
unconventional in a way thatgives me a sense of belonging.
I feel most at home among othergroups that are frequently
ostracized by society, unquote.
From my own experience as alate diagnosed autistic,
(19:01):
bisexual femme, yes, the peopleI hung out with in high school
and in adulthood have been morelikely to have these
non-monogamous ideals.
This simply meant that I learnedmore about non-monogamy and
polyamory perhaps much earlierthan my non-neurodivergent peers
(19:24):
and friends.
I was reading books aboutnon-monogamy about a decade
before non-monogamy andpolyamory hit the popular press
or was big in the news.
But apart from a few, shall wesay, experimental phases in my
20s, I have been prettystaunchly monogamous.
I have a conservativeevangelical bordering on
(19:47):
fundamentalist Christian past,so it was very hard for me to
both embrace my sexual identityand any non-monogamous
relationship variations.
I really, really had to studyand think hard about it.
As a little Christian girlgrowing up in the Bible Belt and
(20:08):
then moving to Canada andinstantly getting involved in a
church, I got married when I was19 to my church's worship
pastor, and then I startedreading all kinds of things and
thinking very deeply andconversing with a wide array of
people from many walks of life,and this led to starting to
(20:30):
question a lot of the ideals,beliefs, and general worldview
that I was raised with.
Oddly enough, one of the booksthat had the biggest impact on
me was the Letters of Abelardand Heloise, real letters
between a 12th century Frenchtheologian and philosopher,
(20:51):
Peter Abelard, and his pupilHeloise, both members of the
Catholic Church.
They eventually had a secretlove affair and a secret baby
and eventually got married insecret.
But the two were notcomfortable with the whole
marriage thing.
And Peter's family found outabout the whole thing and
(21:14):
castrated him and forced him tobecome a monk.
You think Romeo and Juliet wastragic?
I mean, read Abelard andHeloise.
Anyway, I was super moved bypretty much anything Heloise
wrote, in particular.
One of her letters really stoodout.
Google (21:34):
The name of mistress instead of wife would be dearer
and more honorable to me.
Only love given freely, ratherthan the constriction of the
marriage tie, is of significanceto an ideal relationship.
Kristen (21:47):
And my absolute favorite.
Google (21:50):
And if the name of wife appears more sacred and more
valid, sweeter to me is ever theword friend or, if you be not
ashamed, concubine or whore.
Kristen (22:00):
Preach.
Anyway.
So, 19 and 20 year old me,already married, accosting
myself daily with the letters ofsome medieval horn dogs which
were ripping the proverbialcarpet right out from beneath me
in terms of the epistemologicalfoundations upon which all of
(22:25):
my beliefs were built.
Add in some other philosophy, Imean, I started reading
Nietzsche.
I was reading all kinds ofthings, you know.
But I remember staring at mybeautiful sparkling wedding ring
, latched tightly on my ringfinger, and thinking, dang it,
(22:46):
dang it, I'm some owned thing,I'm a wife, I'm a wife, ahh! And
I will say that my thinking ismore nuanced these days.
Heck, maybe I will get marriedsomeday, I don't know.
But that's a bit of my thoughtprocess from back then.
The words went round and roundin my head.
(23:10):
Far sweeter to me, as ever, thewords friend, concubine, whore.
Far sweeter to me.
I think the letters of Abelardand Heloise were so impactful,
not only because of how theywere written and the incredible
story they told, but because Ihad a lot of the same beliefs
(23:33):
then that they had back in the12th century.
I really did see the world insome very similar ways, so that
they were contesting aspects ofa good Christian life in such a
way that resulted in a series ofdirect hits to my beliefs and
my ideals, specifically aroundmarriage and love.
(23:54):
I took it all very seriously.
I stayed in my marriage, however, for several more years, but my
commitment to marriage as ageneral concept, as a construct,
and as an institution was dealtsome serious blows right out of
the gate.
I don't think my marriage stooda chance.
(24:17):
Not to mention I married waytoo young and had a lot of
growing to do.
I'd eventually leave my faith,then leave my marriage, and then
I went a bit bonkers forseveral years.
But during that time I reallydiscovered who I was.
I got in touch with mysexuality, my beliefs, my
(24:37):
preferences, what I liked, whatI didn't like, and so on.
My faith and my deep devotionto it had, I think, caused a
kind of arrested development inthat whole department, and so I
did in my late 20s what a lot offolks in their late teens and
or early 20s do.
But after a few years of datingand not taking things too
(25:00):
seriously, I eventually got backinto a long-term monogamous
relationship that lasted over adecade, but I never stopped
questioning the ethics ofmonogamy.
I never felt comfortablefeeling like someone's property
or that I couldn't experienceanother person sexually ever
again.
As a super loyal person,however, I never went against my
(25:25):
partner's preference formonogamy.
Never.
And now here I am once again,single, ready to, well, you know
! I'm being silly, but for real,here I am once again
questioning monogamy and reallynot wanting to go back to it.
I mean, who knows, maybe oneday or one person will change
(25:46):
all that, but here it is rightnow, here I am.
I also want to give an importantreminder that being bisexual or
queer or autistic ornon-monogamous does not make a
person more willing to do crazystuff.
I feel like, when I'vedisclosed these parts of myself,
some people make the very wrongassumption that I'm super,
(26:09):
de-duper, de-sexual and up foranything they want.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
I mean, perhaps I'm more intouch with my sexuality than the
average Joe, but I'm verydiscerning.
I have very specific tastes andI'm very picky.
I don't go around desiringanyone and everyone that moves
(26:30):
and being up for anything.
I know this is true for me andI know this is true for many
others who share the same orsimilar identities.
Just be mindful of that.
Challenge your knee-jerkresponses and even your
automatic thoughts and judgmentsthat arise when you hear words
like non-monogamy and polyamory,or even neuroqueer, bisexual,
(26:52):
pansexual.
The list goes on.
I'd love to hear your stories,if you're willing to share them,
about your own journey to andfrom non-monogamy, monogamy, any
of the things we've talkedabout in this episode.
Well, that's all I have for youtoday.
Episode one of season three, ahh! Thank you so much for being
(27:19):
here.
Until next time, bye.
(28:34):
Where's the cookie?
What's this?
What's this?
Maybe if you could help edit!Are you gonna help edit this
episode?
Make yourself useful.
Don't purr at me.
Do you want this?
(28:54):
What?
What do you say?
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