August 1, 2024 • 34 mins
What happens when you combine the ancient wisdom of psilocybin with the expertise of a trauma coach? Join us in a transformative conversation with Phoenix Gould, as we uncover the profound healing impacts of her recent psilocybin therapy session. Phoenix, a dedicated trauma coach, shares the raw and powerful journey of confronting long-held fears and trauma. Discover the life-changing insights she gained and how these sessions are reshaping her path to reclaiming joy and personal power.
In a compelling discussion, we explore the shift from being a fierce warrior to embracing vulnerability and self-acceptance. Phoenix shares intimate reflections on how growing up with a narcissistic parent has shaped survival mechanisms and self-perception. We dive into the heart of the struggle, examining the complexities of letting go of familiar strength and independence to trust and accept love and support from others. This conversation sheds light on why choosing a nurturing life can be so challenging for trauma survivors and how to begin this daunting transformation.
Our episode concludes with a deep dive into understanding and forgiving narcissistic behavior within the context of family relationships. Phoenix opens up about the painful yet necessary journey of empathy and self-care when dealing with a narcissistic parent. We discuss the importance of setting boundaries to protect oneself from ongoing abuse while exploring the potential for healing and forgiveness. Through Phoenix's insights and personal revelations, listeners will gain a profound understanding of resilience, empathy, and the transformative power of shared journeys.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
In every dark tunnel, there's a glimmer of hope.
In every painful moment,there's a strength to heal.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
The guest we have on today is a returned guest.
You may have heard the episodepreviously released.
She has become such a supporterof the show and going to be
back on a regular basis to helpus with some things.
That is part of her expertise,Phoenix, I just I am so grateful
(00:56):
that we cross paths.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
David, I feel exactly the same way.
It's such a pleasure to workwith you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, I love the relationship that, like that is
one thing that I just reallylove about what I'm doing is I'm
coming across people that Iprobably would not have met
before had my life not went downthis path.
So, thank you, pleasereintroduce yourself to us and
(01:23):
then we'll talk about our topicfor the day.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure, my name is Phoenix Gould and I grew up with
a narcissistic mother.
I am now a coach and I helpclients take back their power
from the narcissist by trulyunderstanding who they are and
by healing from narcissisticabuse.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Taking back that power is so important.
I think anybody that I'vespoken with that survived trauma
.
One thing they say is I felt sopowerless.
I felt everyone had a narrativefor my own story.
I didn't have my own voice atthe time, and getting back that
power and reclaiming that iseveryone's goal.
(02:05):
I used to say my joy was stolen, and then I learned to rethink
that it wasn't stolen.
It might've been put on holdtemporarily, but it wasn't
stolen.
After we recorded your firstepisode, we were having
conversation and you mentionedthis what we're going to talk
about today and how it was justlife-changing for you.
(02:25):
So tell us about it, let's getinto it.
You mentioned this what we'regoing to talk about today and
how it was just life changingfor you.
So tell us about it, let's getinto it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yes, so I had come to a point in my life where I was
feeling that I had done so muchwork 26 years of diving deep
into self-development andlearning and healing and I was
really, really curious to seewhat else there was left to heal
.
And I felt I wanted to take areally deep look and had heard
(02:54):
about people who heal traumathrough the use of psilocybin.
And I met someone who does thiswork, who's a psychologist and
who does psilocybin journeysafter the Hopkins method, which
is like this institute in theStates, who have done research
for many years to find the rightdosage, the right treatment to
(03:18):
help survivors of trauma to movethrough.
And apparently after threesessions there's this big
breakthrough for most people towhere they feel that they're
done with healing their trauma,and that to me it seems like a
really cool idea.
It never even occurred to methat I could be done with my
(03:39):
trauma healing.
I'm like you can be done Really, is that possible?
Evening.
I'm like you can be done Really, is that possible?
And so I got really curious andI had one session a few weeks
ago and I'd love to talk aboutthe experience because it was
life changing for me and Iunderstood myself and my
particular path and why I am theway I am in such a deep and
(04:03):
profound way, and I alsounderstood a layer of what the
narcissist goes through everysingle day where I just thought,
oh my God, I have to tell theworld like people need to know
this, which is some people callit magic mushrooms and there are
different strains and there'ssome that are particularly
(04:23):
developed to do this kind oftrauma work and they have done
very extensive research to findthe right amount to where people
go deep into their unconsciousto be able to do some healing
but don't have a bad trip.
There's like that sweet spotthat they found, and so I found
(04:44):
someone who knows all about thatwork and who has been trained
in doing this work.
They tuck you into bed in asuper quiet room, they blindfold
you and they plug a headsetinto your ears or earphones
where they play very specificmusic that is designed to move
your brain into a specificwavelength so that you can go
(05:06):
deeper and deeper into yourunconscious.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Wow, and is that the first step?
Or is that what happens?
All three?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
That happens in all three.
Okay, so it's the same thing,but each time you go you move a
big chunk out of the way, and sothe next time you can go deeper
and you can go further.
So, I've only done one.
I'm really curious to see whatthe third time might look like.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, having the reaction and outcome just from
that one is incredible.
So I'm very curious.
I went immediately is part ofmy PTSD is having things like in
my ears or over my eyes beingwatched when I can't see?
(05:52):
So do you have PTSD and wasthat a fear of yours?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I have PTSD, but it's in a different space.
It's not about having my eyescovered or my ears, but my
experience was that once thepsilocybin takes effect, you go
into a different spacealtogether and nothing that used
(06:19):
to bother you it bothers you inthe same way, or it's exactly
what the mushroom will address,and you will work through that
problem and then come out on theother side having seen
something that is so profoundthat now it's not a problem
anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Wow, do you mind to tell us, as you were laying
there and listening to the music, what was happening to you?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Sure.
So what happened for me was thevery first thing is that I was
caught in a cycle of fear that,in that moment, I was
experiencing in all ways, likewhen we're in this life.
We have fear and we canrecognize it as a feeling, but
the world around us still existsand so we can push it away.
(07:03):
When I was in my first phase, Iwas living inside a container
of fear which I've never reallyexperienced before.
So the first thing was, youknow, a world of fear, and it
felt like hell.
To be honest, I think that Igot to experience in that first
phase, my own personal hell.
(07:24):
I was in a room that was fear.
I could see my fear, I couldsmell it, I could taste it.
It was inside and around me.
It was so intense In thatmoment.
If I could have had a buttonthat I could have pushed to make
the experience stop, I wouldhave been so tempted to do that
because it seemed unbearable atfirst.
(07:44):
And this world of fear wasthere At first.
I was just in it and going, ohmy God, wow, this is really
intense.
I needed to hold the guy's hand.
Can you hold my hand?
This is really strong.
The mushroom, though comes andgoes.
There's phases where themushroom takes over and you're
in this world and then it fadesand you come back into yourself
and you're going this world andthen it fades and you come back
(08:05):
into yourself and you're goinglike, wow, that was pretty
intense.
And then there was anotherphase, a new phase of fear, and
I was like, wow, what is this?
I didn't know.
I had so much fear inside ofmyself.
And then came a moment when Igot really pissed off.
I was just like what is this?
I don't want to go throughanother cycle of this fear.
(08:26):
Like I'm done, like what thehell?
I was getting really angry atthis experience.
And that's when things startedto shift for me and all of a
sudden I started asking thequestion what am I supposed to
learn here?
And all of a sudden, theexperience started changing.
So I think the way this mushroomworks us through our trauma is
(08:47):
that we experience it at firstand then we recognize something.
For me, it was that, wait amoment, I can see that this
mushroom is taking me wherevermy mind goes.
So if I'm afraid of the nextphase of fear, guess what?
I'm going to have anotherexperience of fear, which was
the case, but I could recognizethat now it's just ooh, actually
(09:10):
I'm in charge.
I'm in charge of what's goingon here and I'm like, if I'm in
charge, then what do I want?
What would it be like toexperience joy?
Be like to experience joy Allof a sudden, the next thing that
came along was a phase of joy,like this beautiful garden full
of flowers, and that was justlike, ah, marveling at the
(09:32):
beauty.
And all of a sudden, my nextthought was what if it
disappears again?
Will this stay?
Guess what?
That was a thought of fear.
All of a sudden, that gardenstarted wilting and the fear
theme came back in and again Iwas in that place.
That felt like hell and I waslike, oh, I'm in charge.
(09:55):
This led me to this point, towhere I realized I could see
myself sitting the precipice andon one side was hell and on the
other side was heaven.
And I sat there and I knew thatI got to decide my next
experience Is it going to behell or is it going to be heaven
?
And guess what?
(10:16):
It was really hard for me tochoose heaven.
I couldn't choose heaven.
I was afraid of moving intothis place of heaven.
This journey takes about fouror five, six hours, and so you
have a hell of a lot of thingsyou can move through and
understand.
That was just the beginning.
Maybe that was the first 15minutes.
Right then the insight and thewisdom started to pop in and I
(10:38):
started to realize somethingabout myself, and this is what I
want to talk to you about,actually, because I understood
why I and so many victims ofnarcissism get stuck in choosing
that hell.
Because we do find ourselvesback in relationships where the
(11:00):
same patterns are being repeated, right, and so now I have to
think for a moment in where Iwill take you inside that
journey to make it clear and asI'm talking about it, I feel
myself almost shaking, my body'svibrating because this was so
intense, and I can feel traumaactually still releasing as I'm
(11:24):
speaking about it what Iunderstood is that when we live,
when we grow up in a space oftrauma, when we grow up with a
narcissist, we are surrounded bydark mirrors.
We're being mirrored back fromthe narcissist everything that's
bad about us.
We're too sensitive, we're toodemanding, we're too mediocre,
(11:47):
we're too anything right All thebad things are being mirrored
back to us.
The bad things are beingmirrored back to us and we
actually survive that halfwaysaying by looking into those
mirrors and saying, yeah, you'reright, I am that I am not worth
(12:09):
your love, I am too selfish, Iam all of that which you say.
But that allows us to build ahome inside that darkness,
inside that hell that we aresurrounded with.
And when we learn to walk thatworld, later on in our lives we
get to find a way through thatlabyrinth of darkness by working
(12:32):
on ourselves so hard andrealizing, actually I am not
selfish, I deserve love, Ideserve these things, but we
still navigate that space ofhell.
We haven't made our way over toheaven yet.
We're still living in that helland in those feelings because
they travel with us always andwe learn how to walk a warrior
(12:52):
through that world.
Mom's not there or dad's notthere.
I can do this on my own.
I have to make it on my own.
I will make my way through thisdarkness, and so that's what I
realized about myself.
I became a warrior in order tosurvive that world, in order to
grow to the place that I've comenow to, where I can walk
confidently and I know myselfand I can put down boundaries,
(13:16):
but I'm still navigating.
I still have my roots in thatworld, because that's why I was
born.
I had nothing to hold on to butthat darkness.
So I held on to those roots andwhen I found myself in the
journey of sitting on thatprecipice on one side, that
world of the experience of thedarkness and the trauma and all
the memories that are stillthere and knowing so much about
(13:39):
narcissism and knowing how todeal with them and on the left
side, that new land, that newworld that I had no idea what
that would be like.
To have ease in my life, tohave things come to me I don't
have to go out with a warriormode and get them and make it
happen, to receive things withsoftness, to know that I don't
(14:03):
have to work hard for anythingFor me that was like the idea of
heaven.
I was realizing in that journeythat I would have to give up the
warrior.
I have to give up that strengththat I can have to give up the
warrior.
I have to give up that strengththat I can do it on my own.
Because, guess what?
That's a very lonely place.
We're always on our own.
In some way, heaven is notlonely, but I had no idea how to
(14:28):
hold someone's hand, how totrust and how to have ease.
When I realized, if I want tomake it over to that side of
heaven how it appeared to me inthat journey I'd have to give up
the warrior.
And that's super scary.
I could hear myself saying whyis it so hard to choose heaven?
(14:50):
I said that a million times.
Why is it so hard to chooseheaven and the beautiful and the
ease?
And I realized I had to give upthat warrior and if I did that
I would be like a child again,stumbling, not knowing how to
live in heaven.
(15:10):
I have no idea.
I've never done it.
I don't really truly know howto hold someone's hand or to let
someone hold my hand, becauseI've always done it on my own.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
That's so powerful.
You mentioned having a hardtime choosing the heaven.
You think that that would bethe first place you would go to
and the place you wouldn't wantto leave, and that you even had
the choice and you couldn'tstill not bring yourself to pick
the heaven.
What did you personally takefrom that?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
What I realized for myself.
Sometimes we're still stuck inthat hell a little bit, and I
think we are because we want tounderstand.
We want to understand thatworld.
It didn't make sense in so manyways.
How are we to comprehend whathappened in there?
And I think that is part ofwhat keeps us stuck.
And so I think there'sdifferent levels of making it
(16:09):
out of that hell.
I think the first one is torealize that, thank God, I chose
to accept hell, because then Icould at least make my home in
it and I'll talk about that in alittle bit because the
narcissist chose differently,which turned them into a
narcissist.
Actually, they made a differentchoice at that moment.
Thank goodness, I chose to bearthe pain, because that is what
(16:34):
keeps me safe every day.
And then it's about findingthat radical self-love, like
creating those positive mirrorsfor ourselves, creating
experiences to where we can seesomething else but that darkness
, but where we experience I'mgood, I'm loved, I'm funny, I'm
(16:55):
cherished, and that makes usinto that warrior.
I think we need those warriorfeet to walk out of that hell or
to make it to the precipice sothat we can see that there is
another world.
But if we don't have feet towalk out of that place, we're
not going to make it out.
So our first part of ourjourney is to become that
(17:16):
warrior, because if we continueto wait for approval from other
people, we'll still be stuck inthat hell.
We don't have feet, which isthat first phase of oh my God, I
want someone to love me.
What can I do for someone tolove me?
And so the first step is torealize that, hey, I have to be
(17:36):
the one that approves of myselfso I can grow those feet and
that warrior, the warrior insideof me, then I can make it out
of hell.
And then we can come to thatplace and realize, okay, there
actually is a choice.
I could live a completelydifferent life, but then we have
to be willing to give up thewarrior and we have to be
willing, in my experience, to bea baby again in a new world, so
(18:01):
that we can create a new hometo where our experience becomes
that of love about other people.
We know we can have ourself-love.
Now the work can be okay.
How do I experience to haveothers hold me up so I don't
have to do all the work?
How do I experience the loveand appreciation from other
(18:25):
people, which is heaven, whichis that new place.
And I cry in my process, I letgo of that warrior.
There was a moment of thankingthe warrior and I cried like
I've never cried in my wholelife, having to let go that part
of me, that strong pillar,because I know how to do this.
(18:45):
It's very hard to give that upand say, okay, I'll let it go,
I'll start all over and see whatis happening, even though I'm a
baby and I'm going to bestumbling and I have no idea
where to go.
I don't even know where tostart, but I'm going to be
willing to stumble and beincredibly vulnerable because I
know, if I need to, I can pullout that warrior shield again.
(19:10):
But I'm safe now.
I don't have to be afraid.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So when you experience the hell and then you
experience the heaven, is thatwhen you started having the
realizations of the curiosity ofunderstanding the narcissist.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
The first part for me was really just heaven or hell.
Phoenix you get to pick afterevery cycle is like heaven or
hell.
And I'm like why is it so hardto pick heaven?
Whoops, another round of hell.
This is.
I'm going to go through thisagain and again and again.
And it was when I realized thatI had to give up the warrior.
When I went through okay, I'mright, I'm okay now to let go of
(19:47):
the warrior that thing startedshifting and I started asking.
At some point I got reallycurious and I said why didn't I
end up like my mom?
And, of course, wherever yourmind goes is where the mushroom
takes you right.
That's the unconscious part youdive into, and so I got to
experience what makes thedifference.
(20:07):
So this is something I knewbefore that many people go
through trauma, through the sametrauma, and some of those
people turn into narcissists orend up with another personality
disorder, and some don't.
And psychologists neverunderstood why they're like we
(20:30):
don't know why, but people cango through the same trauma.
Some of them end up with apersonality disorder, like we
don't know why, but people cango through the same trauma.
Some of them end up with apersonality disorder, some of
them don't.
And when I asked that question,I experienced what my mom is
(20:51):
going through, and so what Ifelt was that I was in that hell
.
I was back in that hell and mypersonal hell, full of fear, and
in it, and I knew at thatmoment I was my mom and I was
drowning in that hell.
It felt like I was in an oceanof fear and pain that was so
unbearable that I thought I wasgoing to die, and I could feel
(21:13):
myself paddling the water, justtrying to stay afloat and out of
that terrible place, and Icould see other people on the
top, like our world, in there,but to me they were just
lifeboats.
I just hung on to them, justpulling myself out of the water,
and I had no concern for themin that moment.
(21:35):
It was just I can't die, I needto survive, save me.
And so I hung on and I usedthem to pull myself up and in
that moment I understood thatnarcissists find this so
unbearable and it feels to themlike they're going to die and
(21:56):
they want nothing but out andthey can't even see people for
who they are, but only as a liferaft, as a rope hanging in the
water that they can hold on tonot drown in this misery, which
explained to me at that momentwhy they need the fuel.
They're going for the fuel justto stay out of that incredible
(22:18):
darkness they have inside ofthemselves that they cannot bear
.
And at that moment, when Irealized the hell that my mom
lives in every single day, Icried for her.
I've been so angry these lastyears and I've come to a place
of forgiving her for what she'scaused me and having empathy for
(22:38):
her, but I could never quiteforgive her for what she
continues to do to my dad.
But at that moment, when I feltthat incredible pain she swims
in every single day and isafraid to drown, and I could
understand and I wept for her, Icried and I came out of the
experience having completelyforgiven her, because now I
(23:00):
understand that hell, oh my God.
And then I realized that Icould see myself and her in the
same place, in the same traumain our childhood, and I made the
choice to say yes, I am all ofthat, that dark, I am that
(23:22):
useless, I am that unlovable, Iam that selfish, I am all these
things that you're showing meand I will bear that pain Saying
yes to that allowed me to keepmyself whole, to keep my soul.
(23:42):
My mother, in the very samesituation, could not bear those
dark mirrors and she said, no,that's not me.
But she could never make a homein it, she could never find
root and she denied herself, shegave away that part of her,
that darkness, and we all carrythat darkness.
(24:02):
It's all true, right, we areselfish at times, we are all
these things and so much more.
But at that moment, when shesaid no, she turned away from
that and she found herself inthat ocean and that fear of, oh
my God, I can't be that, that'snot me, no, and being afraid to
see that darkness inside of herwhich kept.
(24:23):
I think that was the decidingpoint Do we keep our soul and we
can live as a human being, ordo we become a narcissist who is
constantly drowning in thatterrible experience and they try
to stay out of it by abusingother people just to get that
fuel just hanging on, not evenseeing us as human beings.
Which is life rafts, which islifeboats?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
You had said that it brought you to a place of
forgiveness with your mother,which is something that you've
been battling with for quite awhile.
Forgiving someone and excusingtheir behavior or trying to
justify their behavior areseveral different things.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, that's interesting goes through every
single day and not just knowingit in theory, but experiencing
in myself and going, oh my god,gave me such empathy for her
that I thought that poor woman,oh my god, and understood why
she couldn't even see me.
She just sees me as a life raft.
It doesn't occur.
She doesn't see me as a humanbeing.
(25:28):
She sees me as a rope to hangon to, and same for my dad.
And so, of course, she's goingto do that right, because I did
it in that moment too.
I would grab on If I wasdrowning.
I would hang on to anything Iwouldn't have the time to think
about.
Oh, that's a human being, it'san automatism.
It becomes an instinct in thatmoment.
(25:49):
So I think I realized that mymother's acting out of instinct,
and so for me, forgivenessfeels like this I have a great
understanding for her sufferingand I know why she's doing it,
and so now it's not personalanymore.
It's not like she hates me, shehates my dad.
(26:10):
How can she do such a thing?
All I see is a drowning womantrying to stay alive, and so
there's that letting go of.
Oh, I get it.
I know why she's doing it andit doesn't mean that I'm saying
go ahead, do it.
I would still love to jump inand save my dad and say get away
, but there isn't that angeranymore.
(26:33):
There used to be such angerabout her, against her, where I
wanted her to stop.
Now, just I want her to stop.
There's a difference.
There's like a differentemotional investment and, yeah,
I could stop her.
I could just say no, that's it.
But there's not that rageanymore.
That's completely gone.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I have always been a firm believer in absolutely we
can forgive and all those thingsthat are great for us.
But the battle that I've runinto is, at some point the bad
guy and this is generallyspeaking right, but at some
point the bad guy they this isgenerally speaking right, but at
some point the bad guy they'vegot to be proactive in helping
themselves as well.
(27:16):
For instance, in this case, younow understand the narcissistic
behavior, but what have youexperienced, or have you shared
this experience with her, and isshe wanting to explore options
and becoming a better mother andhelping your all's relationship
?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Thank you, that's a really wonderful question.
I know that narcissism can't behelped as of now.
They don't know the curebecause they have built such a
strong wall between seeing thatthey would have to see their
pain to actually deal and healit.
They're not willing to becausethey find themselves in that
health.
They think they're going to diepain to actually deal and heal
it.
They're not willing to becausethey find themselves in that
hell.
They think they're going to die.
Of course they don't want todie.
(27:57):
They've made that choice.
I don't think there's any goingback.
So she will be who she's goingto be.
For me to share this experiencewith her wouldn't change a
thing for her.
There's nothing I can do tochange her.
I know that.
You know.
I'm actually now curious.
What if I want to see her again?
I haven't seen her for sevenyears because I decided to be
(28:21):
that removed from her so that Icould heal more and I've become
curious now.
Would I feel differently when Igo back?
What would I feel differently?
And honestly, I don't know.
But yeah, I don't think there'sanything I can do to help her
heal.
There is no way.
I think that chance is longgone.
She's made that choice.
I don't think there's any goingback, and so I may have to stay
(28:44):
away from her for the rest ofmy life, so that I don't get
hurt again, so that I can takegood care of myself and say no,
I will not endure this abuse.
And of course, it would happenif I went forward with it, right
?
So then what would I do?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, before your first treatment with this were
you dead set on I will never goback, I will never see her again
.
And then now, after onetreatment year, but I wonder
what would be different now.
So it makes me wonder by thetime you get to that third
(29:20):
treatment, are you going to beand I guess you'll let us know,
but is it going to be one ofthose things where it's I want
to test this.
I want to now go and see formyself.
Do you even think that would bea possibility?
Or is it nice knowing that younow have your answer and you're
regaining that control andyou're understanding things
you've never understood before?
And that's what you needed.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It's definitely what I needed.
It feels wow.
I'm curious to see what thesecond treatment, where we will
go there Maybe I can chooseheaven this time Wouldn't that
be something I think that is.
I would consider myself done ifI could fully choose heaven or
who knows what else is beyondthat, but yeah, I'm curious to
see where this goes.
I am fascinated with the ideaof would I be able to go back
(30:05):
and see my dad, Cause I reallywant to see him and deal with my
mom and not be affected.
Is that possible to not beaffected?
I'm totally curious.
Wouldn't that be amazing tojust be there and hear her say
things and I'm just going, hmm,and I would not feel any
physical discomfort or mentaldiscomfort.
(30:27):
To me it would be ultimatefreedom.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
When you're coming out of that journey, when you're
at that physical place, do youjust do they give you a hot tea?
Do you just relax and cometogether and then get in your
car and drive home?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
They let me stay for as long as I wanted and in truth
, the first part is reallyintense and there's hardly any
break in between when you gothrough these cycles.
And then the end there's amilder cycle which gives a lot
of insight and you can askspecific questions and retrieve
the answers, and it just keepsgoing for another two hours in a
very light way, to where youcome completely out of the
(31:01):
experience in between and youthink, oh, I might be done.
And then whoops, there comesanother little journey.
So they had a beautiful littlegarden where I was and I was
able to just lie on the grassand she offered me a meal and
something to drink and we talkedfor a little bit afterwards and
she took notes of everything Isaid.
She had 10 pages written downand then there was a debriefing
(31:23):
session to where we met againand we talked about my
experiences and how I wasintegrating them, because it is
such a huge thing to integrate.
It took me a long time.
I'm just feeling now it's beenabout three weeks that I'm
starting to get it all togetherand integrate it into my life.
(31:43):
Afterwards I experienced myselfwithout any fear of anything For
three days.
I was inside that glow.
Three days I was not concerned,worried about anything, and I
was just going wow, for thefirst time in my life I'm
getting an experience of whatit's like to live in a body
(32:06):
without fear.
My eyesight came back, my brainfog disappeared, any kind of
physical problems I had werejust.
It was like a suspense in timeand I realized, oh my god, it's
a state of mind, it's a state ofbeing I can see clearly and now
(32:30):
it's like, through the time, myeyesight keeps coming and going
and I'm realizing it's.
And now it's like through thetime, my eyesight keeps coming
and going and I'm realizing it'snot my eyes, it's the state of
mind that I'm in that affects myeyesight and it affects my
sleep and it affects everything.
It even affected my dog.
My dog usually will be off ontheir own and I'm a little
worried.
I let her go without a leash inthe city and sometimes she will
(32:52):
go too far ahead and I'm alittle concerned.
Is she going too far?
And I'm worried about the cars.
In those three days when I hadno fear at all, I walked her.
She was by my side the wholetime, always looking at me,
checking on me.
It was like oh my God, I have aninfluence on my dog when I'm
not in fear, and I realized thatso many physical issues I have
(33:14):
might be caused from a life ofliving in fear.
And now the question is whatwould it be like to live in a
body that doesn't know fear?
I would not have gotten to thispoint in this lifetime.
When I came out of that journey, I said to myself oh my God,
thank goodness, I'm workingextremely hard.
(33:34):
I've worked for 26 years on myhealing, but I would not have
reached that point in thislifetime if I hadn't done this.
It's incredibly powerful.
It was so impactful that I'mgoing to take the training so I
can do that for other people aswell.
I would say that it hasprofoundly changed my perception
of so many things.
You could work a lifetime toget that kind of insight or and
(33:58):
with insight comes freedom rightwhen we see something really
clearly for the first time, thatalone can provoke such a
transformation.
And this is definitely a placewhere we can't escape the
experience right In life.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our
incredible guests for sharingtheir transformative journey
with us today.
Join us next week as we diveinto the healing process and
share more incredible stories oftriumph and resilience.
Outro Music.
In every dark tunnel, there's a glimmer of hope.
In every painful moment,there's a strength to heal.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
The guest we have on today is a returned guest.
You may have heard the episodepreviously released.
She has become such a supporterof the show and going to be
back on a regular basis to helpus with some things.
That is part of her expertise,Phoenix, I just I am so grateful
(00:56):
that we cross paths.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
David, I feel exactly the same way.
It's such a pleasure to workwith you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, I love the relationship that, like that is
one thing that I just reallylove about what I'm doing is I'm
coming across people that Iprobably would not have met
before had my life not went downthis path.
So, thank you, pleasereintroduce yourself to us and
(01:23):
then we'll talk about our topicfor the day.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure, my name is Phoenix Gould and I grew up with
a narcissistic mother.
I am now a coach and I helpclients take back their power
from the narcissist by trulyunderstanding who they are and
by healing from narcissisticabuse.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Taking back that power is so important.
I think anybody that I'vespoken with that survived trauma
.
One thing they say is I felt sopowerless.
I felt everyone had a narrativefor my own story.
I didn't have my own voice atthe time, and getting back that
power and reclaiming that iseveryone's goal.
(02:05):
I used to say my joy was stolen, and then I learned to rethink
that it wasn't stolen.
It might've been put on holdtemporarily, but it wasn't
stolen.
After we recorded your firstepisode, we were having
conversation and you mentionedthis what we're going to talk
about today and how it was justlife-changing for you.
(02:25):
So tell us about it, let's getinto it.
You mentioned this what we'regoing to talk about today and
how it was just life changingfor you.
So tell us about it, let's getinto it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yes, so I had come to a point in my life where I was
feeling that I had done so muchwork 26 years of diving deep
into self-development andlearning and healing and I was
really, really curious to seewhat else there was left to heal
.
And I felt I wanted to take areally deep look and had heard
(02:54):
about people who heal traumathrough the use of psilocybin.
And I met someone who does thiswork, who's a psychologist and
who does psilocybin journeysafter the Hopkins method, which
is like this institute in theStates, who have done research
for many years to find the rightdosage, the right treatment to
(03:18):
help survivors of trauma to movethrough.
And apparently after threesessions there's this big
breakthrough for most people towhere they feel that they're
done with healing their trauma,and that to me it seems like a
really cool idea.
It never even occurred to methat I could be done with my
(03:39):
trauma healing.
I'm like you can be done Really, is that possible?
Evening.
I'm like you can be done Really, is that possible?
And so I got really curious andI had one session a few weeks
ago and I'd love to talk aboutthe experience because it was
life changing for me and Iunderstood myself and my
particular path and why I am theway I am in such a deep and
(04:03):
profound way, and I alsounderstood a layer of what the
narcissist goes through everysingle day where I just thought,
oh my God, I have to tell theworld like people need to know
this, which is some people callit magic mushrooms and there are
different strains and there'ssome that are particularly
(04:23):
developed to do this kind oftrauma work and they have done
very extensive research to findthe right amount to where people
go deep into their unconsciousto be able to do some healing
but don't have a bad trip.
There's like that sweet spotthat they found, and so I found
(04:44):
someone who knows all about thatwork and who has been trained
in doing this work.
They tuck you into bed in asuper quiet room, they blindfold
you and they plug a headsetinto your ears or earphones
where they play very specificmusic that is designed to move
your brain into a specificwavelength so that you can go
(05:06):
deeper and deeper into yourunconscious.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Wow, and is that the first step?
Or is that what happens?
All three?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
That happens in all three.
Okay, so it's the same thing,but each time you go you move a
big chunk out of the way, and sothe next time you can go deeper
and you can go further.
So, I've only done one.
I'm really curious to see whatthe third time might look like.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, having the reaction and outcome just from
that one is incredible.
So I'm very curious.
I went immediately is part ofmy PTSD is having things like in
my ears or over my eyes beingwatched when I can't see?
(05:52):
So do you have PTSD and wasthat a fear of yours?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I have PTSD, but it's in a different space.
It's not about having my eyescovered or my ears, but my
experience was that once thepsilocybin takes effect, you go
into a different spacealtogether and nothing that used
(06:19):
to bother you it bothers you inthe same way, or it's exactly
what the mushroom will address,and you will work through that
problem and then come out on theother side having seen
something that is so profoundthat now it's not a problem
anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Wow, do you mind to tell us, as you were laying
there and listening to the music, what was happening to you?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Sure.
So what happened for me was thevery first thing is that I was
caught in a cycle of fear that,in that moment, I was
experiencing in all ways, likewhen we're in this life.
We have fear and we canrecognize it as a feeling, but
the world around us still existsand so we can push it away.
(07:03):
When I was in my first phase, Iwas living inside a container
of fear which I've never reallyexperienced before.
So the first thing was, youknow, a world of fear, and it
felt like hell.
To be honest, I think that Igot to experience in that first
phase, my own personal hell.
(07:24):
I was in a room that was fear.
I could see my fear, I couldsmell it, I could taste it.
It was inside and around me.
It was so intense In thatmoment.
If I could have had a buttonthat I could have pushed to make
the experience stop, I wouldhave been so tempted to do that
because it seemed unbearable atfirst.
(07:44):
And this world of fear wasthere At first.
I was just in it and going, ohmy God, wow, this is really
intense.
I needed to hold the guy's hand.
Can you hold my hand?
This is really strong.
The mushroom, though comes andgoes.
There's phases where themushroom takes over and you're
in this world and then it fadesand you come back into yourself
and you're going this world andthen it fades and you come back
(08:05):
into yourself and you're goinglike, wow, that was pretty
intense.
And then there was anotherphase, a new phase of fear, and
I was like, wow, what is this?
I didn't know.
I had so much fear inside ofmyself.
And then came a moment when Igot really pissed off.
I was just like what is this?
I don't want to go throughanother cycle of this fear.
(08:26):
Like I'm done, like what thehell?
I was getting really angry atthis experience.
And that's when things startedto shift for me and all of a
sudden I started asking thequestion what am I supposed to
learn here?
And all of a sudden, theexperience started changing.
So I think the way this mushroomworks us through our trauma is
(08:47):
that we experience it at firstand then we recognize something.
For me, it was that, wait amoment, I can see that this
mushroom is taking me wherevermy mind goes.
So if I'm afraid of the nextphase of fear, guess what?
I'm going to have anotherexperience of fear, which was
the case, but I could recognizethat now it's just ooh, actually
(09:10):
I'm in charge.
I'm in charge of what's goingon here and I'm like, if I'm in
charge, then what do I want?
What would it be like toexperience joy?
Be like to experience joy Allof a sudden, the next thing that
came along was a phase of joy,like this beautiful garden full
of flowers, and that was justlike, ah, marveling at the
(09:32):
beauty.
And all of a sudden, my nextthought was what if it
disappears again?
Will this stay?
Guess what?
That was a thought of fear.
All of a sudden, that gardenstarted wilting and the fear
theme came back in and again Iwas in that place.
That felt like hell and I waslike, oh, I'm in charge.
(09:55):
This led me to this point, towhere I realized I could see
myself sitting the precipice andon one side was hell and on the
other side was heaven.
And I sat there and I knew thatI got to decide my next
experience Is it going to behell or is it going to be heaven
?
And guess what?
(10:16):
It was really hard for me tochoose heaven.
I couldn't choose heaven.
I was afraid of moving intothis place of heaven.
This journey takes about fouror five, six hours, and so you
have a hell of a lot of thingsyou can move through and
understand.
That was just the beginning.
Maybe that was the first 15minutes.
Right then the insight and thewisdom started to pop in and I
(10:38):
started to realize somethingabout myself, and this is what I
want to talk to you about,actually, because I understood
why I and so many victims ofnarcissism get stuck in choosing
that hell.
Because we do find ourselvesback in relationships where the
(11:00):
same patterns are being repeated, right, and so now I have to
think for a moment in where Iwill take you inside that
journey to make it clear and asI'm talking about it, I feel
myself almost shaking, my body'svibrating because this was so
intense, and I can feel traumaactually still releasing as I'm
(11:24):
speaking about it what Iunderstood is that when we live,
when we grow up in a space oftrauma, when we grow up with a
narcissist, we are surrounded bydark mirrors.
We're being mirrored back fromthe narcissist everything that's
bad about us.
We're too sensitive, we're toodemanding, we're too mediocre,
(11:47):
we're too anything right All thebad things are being mirrored
back to us.
The bad things are beingmirrored back to us and we
actually survive that halfwaysaying by looking into those
mirrors and saying, yeah, you'reright, I am that I am not worth
(12:09):
your love, I am too selfish, Iam all of that which you say.
But that allows us to build ahome inside that darkness,
inside that hell that we aresurrounded with.
And when we learn to walk thatworld, later on in our lives we
get to find a way through thatlabyrinth of darkness by working
(12:32):
on ourselves so hard andrealizing, actually I am not
selfish, I deserve love, Ideserve these things, but we
still navigate that space ofhell.
We haven't made our way over toheaven yet.
We're still living in that helland in those feelings because
they travel with us always andwe learn how to walk a warrior
(12:52):
through that world.
Mom's not there or dad's notthere.
I can do this on my own.
I have to make it on my own.
I will make my way through thisdarkness, and so that's what I
realized about myself.
I became a warrior in order tosurvive that world, in order to
grow to the place that I've comenow to, where I can walk
confidently and I know myselfand I can put down boundaries,
(13:16):
but I'm still navigating.
I still have my roots in thatworld, because that's why I was
born.
I had nothing to hold on to butthat darkness.
So I held on to those roots andwhen I found myself in the
journey of sitting on thatprecipice on one side, that
world of the experience of thedarkness and the trauma and all
the memories that are stillthere and knowing so much about
(13:39):
narcissism and knowing how todeal with them and on the left
side, that new land, that newworld that I had no idea what
that would be like.
To have ease in my life, tohave things come to me I don't
have to go out with a warriormode and get them and make it
happen, to receive things withsoftness, to know that I don't
(14:03):
have to work hard for anythingFor me that was like the idea of
heaven.
I was realizing in that journeythat I would have to give up the
warrior.
I have to give up that strengththat I can have to give up the
warrior.
I have to give up that strengththat I can do it on my own.
Because, guess what?
That's a very lonely place.
We're always on our own.
In some way, heaven is notlonely, but I had no idea how to
(14:28):
hold someone's hand, how totrust and how to have ease.
When I realized, if I want tomake it over to that side of
heaven how it appeared to me inthat journey I'd have to give up
the warrior.
And that's super scary.
I could hear myself saying whyis it so hard to choose heaven?
(14:50):
I said that a million times.
Why is it so hard to chooseheaven and the beautiful and the
ease?
And I realized I had to give upthat warrior and if I did that
I would be like a child again,stumbling, not knowing how to
live in heaven.
(15:10):
I have no idea.
I've never done it.
I don't really truly know howto hold someone's hand or to let
someone hold my hand, becauseI've always done it on my own.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
That's so powerful.
You mentioned having a hardtime choosing the heaven.
You think that that would bethe first place you would go to
and the place you wouldn't wantto leave, and that you even had
the choice and you couldn'tstill not bring yourself to pick
the heaven.
What did you personally takefrom that?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
What I realized for myself.
Sometimes we're still stuck inthat hell a little bit, and I
think we are because we want tounderstand.
We want to understand thatworld.
It didn't make sense in so manyways.
How are we to comprehend whathappened in there?
And I think that is part ofwhat keeps us stuck.
And so I think there'sdifferent levels of making it
(16:09):
out of that hell.
I think the first one is torealize that, thank God, I chose
to accept hell, because then Icould at least make my home in
it and I'll talk about that in alittle bit because the
narcissist chose differently,which turned them into a
narcissist.
Actually, they made a differentchoice at that moment.
Thank goodness, I chose to bearthe pain, because that is what
(16:34):
keeps me safe every day.
And then it's about findingthat radical self-love, like
creating those positive mirrorsfor ourselves, creating
experiences to where we can seesomething else but that darkness
, but where we experience I'mgood, I'm loved, I'm funny, I'm
(16:55):
cherished, and that makes usinto that warrior.
I think we need those warriorfeet to walk out of that hell or
to make it to the precipice sothat we can see that there is
another world.
But if we don't have feet towalk out of that place, we're
not going to make it out.
So our first part of ourjourney is to become that
(17:16):
warrior, because if we continueto wait for approval from other
people, we'll still be stuck inthat hell.
We don't have feet, which isthat first phase of oh my God, I
want someone to love me.
What can I do for someone tolove me?
And so the first step is torealize that, hey, I have to be
(17:36):
the one that approves of myselfso I can grow those feet and
that warrior, the warrior insideof me, then I can make it out
of hell.
And then we can come to thatplace and realize, okay, there
actually is a choice.
I could live a completelydifferent life, but then we have
to be willing to give up thewarrior and we have to be
willing, in my experience, to bea baby again in a new world, so
(18:01):
that we can create a new hometo where our experience becomes
that of love about other people.
We know we can have ourself-love.
Now the work can be okay.
How do I experience to haveothers hold me up so I don't
have to do all the work?
How do I experience the loveand appreciation from other
(18:25):
people, which is heaven, whichis that new place.
And I cry in my process, I letgo of that warrior.
There was a moment of thankingthe warrior and I cried like
I've never cried in my wholelife, having to let go that part
of me, that strong pillar,because I know how to do this.
(18:45):
It's very hard to give that upand say, okay, I'll let it go,
I'll start all over and see whatis happening, even though I'm a
baby and I'm going to bestumbling and I have no idea
where to go.
I don't even know where tostart, but I'm going to be
willing to stumble and beincredibly vulnerable because I
know, if I need to, I can pullout that warrior shield again.
(19:10):
But I'm safe now.
I don't have to be afraid.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So when you experience the hell and then you
experience the heaven, is thatwhen you started having the
realizations of the curiosity ofunderstanding the narcissist.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
The first part for me was really just heaven or hell.
Phoenix you get to pick afterevery cycle is like heaven or
hell.
And I'm like why is it so hardto pick heaven?
Whoops, another round of hell.
This is.
I'm going to go through thisagain and again and again.
And it was when I realized thatI had to give up the warrior.
When I went through okay, I'mright, I'm okay now to let go of
(19:47):
the warrior that thing startedshifting and I started asking.
At some point I got reallycurious and I said why didn't I
end up like my mom?
And, of course, wherever yourmind goes is where the mushroom
takes you right.
That's the unconscious part youdive into, and so I got to
experience what makes thedifference.
(20:07):
So this is something I knewbefore that many people go
through trauma, through the sametrauma, and some of those
people turn into narcissists orend up with another personality
disorder, and some don't.
And psychologists neverunderstood why they're like we
(20:30):
don't know why, but people cango through the same trauma.
Some of them end up with apersonality disorder, like we
don't know why, but people cango through the same trauma.
Some of them end up with apersonality disorder, some of
them don't.
And when I asked that question,I experienced what my mom is
(20:51):
going through, and so what Ifelt was that I was in that hell
.
I was back in that hell and mypersonal hell, full of fear, and
in it, and I knew at thatmoment I was my mom and I was
drowning in that hell.
It felt like I was in an oceanof fear and pain that was so
unbearable that I thought I wasgoing to die, and I could feel
(21:13):
myself paddling the water, justtrying to stay afloat and out of
that terrible place, and Icould see other people on the
top, like our world, in there,but to me they were just
lifeboats.
I just hung on to them, justpulling myself out of the water,
and I had no concern for themin that moment.
(21:35):
It was just I can't die, I needto survive, save me.
And so I hung on and I usedthem to pull myself up and in
that moment I understood thatnarcissists find this so
unbearable and it feels to themlike they're going to die and
(21:56):
they want nothing but out andthey can't even see people for
who they are, but only as a liferaft, as a rope hanging in the
water that they can hold on tonot drown in this misery, which
explained to me at that momentwhy they need the fuel.
They're going for the fuel justto stay out of that incredible
(22:18):
darkness they have inside ofthemselves that they cannot bear
.
And at that moment, when Irealized the hell that my mom
lives in every single day, Icried for her.
I've been so angry these lastyears and I've come to a place
of forgiving her for what she'scaused me and having empathy for
(22:38):
her, but I could never quiteforgive her for what she
continues to do to my dad.
But at that moment, when I feltthat incredible pain she swims
in every single day and isafraid to drown, and I could
understand and I wept for her, Icried and I came out of the
experience having completelyforgiven her, because now I
(23:00):
understand that hell, oh my God.
And then I realized that Icould see myself and her in the
same place, in the same traumain our childhood, and I made the
choice to say yes, I am all ofthat, that dark, I am that
(23:22):
useless, I am that unlovable, Iam that selfish, I am all these
things that you're showing meand I will bear that pain Saying
yes to that allowed me to keepmyself whole, to keep my soul.
(23:42):
My mother, in the very samesituation, could not bear those
dark mirrors and she said, no,that's not me.
But she could never make a homein it, she could never find
root and she denied herself, shegave away that part of her,
that darkness, and we all carrythat darkness.
(24:02):
It's all true, right, we areselfish at times, we are all
these things and so much more.
But at that moment, when shesaid no, she turned away from
that and she found herself inthat ocean and that fear of, oh
my God, I can't be that, that'snot me, no, and being afraid to
see that darkness inside of herwhich kept.
(24:23):
I think that was the decidingpoint Do we keep our soul and we
can live as a human being, ordo we become a narcissist who is
constantly drowning in thatterrible experience and they try
to stay out of it by abusingother people just to get that
fuel just hanging on, not evenseeing us as human beings.
Which is life rafts, which islifeboats?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
You had said that it brought you to a place of
forgiveness with your mother,which is something that you've
been battling with for quite awhile.
Forgiving someone and excusingtheir behavior or trying to
justify their behavior areseveral different things.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, that's interesting goes through every
single day and not just knowingit in theory, but experiencing
in myself and going, oh my god,gave me such empathy for her
that I thought that poor woman,oh my god, and understood why
she couldn't even see me.
She just sees me as a life raft.
It doesn't occur.
She doesn't see me as a humanbeing.
(25:28):
She sees me as a rope to hangon to, and same for my dad.
And so, of course, she's goingto do that right, because I did
it in that moment too.
I would grab on If I wasdrowning.
I would hang on to anything Iwouldn't have the time to think
about.
Oh, that's a human being, it'san automatism.
It becomes an instinct in thatmoment.
(25:49):
So I think I realized that mymother's acting out of instinct,
and so for me, forgivenessfeels like this I have a great
understanding for her sufferingand I know why she's doing it,
and so now it's not personalanymore.
It's not like she hates me, shehates my dad.
(26:10):
How can she do such a thing?
All I see is a drowning womantrying to stay alive, and so
there's that letting go of.
Oh, I get it.
I know why she's doing it andit doesn't mean that I'm saying
go ahead, do it.
I would still love to jump inand save my dad and say get away
, but there isn't that angeranymore.
(26:33):
There used to be such angerabout her, against her, where I
wanted her to stop.
Now, just I want her to stop.
There's a difference.
There's like a differentemotional investment and, yeah,
I could stop her.
I could just say no, that's it.
But there's not that rageanymore.
That's completely gone.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I have always been a firm believer in absolutely we
can forgive and all those thingsthat are great for us.
But the battle that I've runinto is, at some point the bad
guy and this is generallyspeaking right, but at some
point the bad guy they this isgenerally speaking right, but at
some point the bad guy they'vegot to be proactive in helping
themselves as well.
(27:16):
For instance, in this case, younow understand the narcissistic
behavior, but what have youexperienced, or have you shared
this experience with her, and isshe wanting to explore options
and becoming a better mother andhelping your all's relationship
?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Thank you, that's a really wonderful question.
I know that narcissism can't behelped as of now.
They don't know the curebecause they have built such a
strong wall between seeing thatthey would have to see their
pain to actually deal and healit.
They're not willing to becausethey find themselves in that
health.
They think they're going to diepain to actually deal and heal
it.
They're not willing to becausethey find themselves in that
hell.
They think they're going to die.
Of course they don't want todie.
(27:57):
They've made that choice.
I don't think there's any goingback.
So she will be who she's goingto be.
For me to share this experiencewith her wouldn't change a
thing for her.
There's nothing I can do tochange her.
I know that.
You know.
I'm actually now curious.
What if I want to see her again?
I haven't seen her for sevenyears because I decided to be
(28:21):
that removed from her so that Icould heal more and I've become
curious now.
Would I feel differently when Igo back?
What would I feel differently?
And honestly, I don't know.
But yeah, I don't think there'sanything I can do to help her
heal.
There is no way.
I think that chance is longgone.
She's made that choice.
I don't think there's any goingback, and so I may have to stay
(28:44):
away from her for the rest ofmy life, so that I don't get
hurt again, so that I can takegood care of myself and say no,
I will not endure this abuse.
And of course, it would happenif I went forward with it, right
?
So then what would I do?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, before your first treatment with this were
you dead set on I will never goback, I will never see her again
.
And then now, after onetreatment year, but I wonder
what would be different now.
So it makes me wonder by thetime you get to that third
(29:20):
treatment, are you going to beand I guess you'll let us know,
but is it going to be one ofthose things where it's I want
to test this.
I want to now go and see formyself.
Do you even think that would bea possibility?
Or is it nice knowing that younow have your answer and you're
regaining that control andyou're understanding things
you've never understood before?
And that's what you needed.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It's definitely what I needed.
It feels wow.
I'm curious to see what thesecond treatment, where we will
go there Maybe I can chooseheaven this time Wouldn't that
be something I think that is.
I would consider myself done ifI could fully choose heaven or
who knows what else is beyondthat, but yeah, I'm curious to
see where this goes.
I am fascinated with the ideaof would I be able to go back
(30:05):
and see my dad, Cause I reallywant to see him and deal with my
mom and not be affected.
Is that possible to not beaffected?
I'm totally curious.
Wouldn't that be amazing tojust be there and hear her say
things and I'm just going, hmm,and I would not feel any
physical discomfort or mentaldiscomfort.
(30:27):
To me it would be ultimatefreedom.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
When you're coming out of that journey, when you're
at that physical place, do youjust do they give you a hot tea?
Do you just relax and cometogether and then get in your
car and drive home?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
They let me stay for as long as I wanted and in truth
, the first part is reallyintense and there's hardly any
break in between when you gothrough these cycles.
And then the end there's amilder cycle which gives a lot
of insight and you can askspecific questions and retrieve
the answers, and it just keepsgoing for another two hours in a
very light way, to where youcome completely out of the
(31:01):
experience in between and youthink, oh, I might be done.
And then whoops, there comesanother little journey.
So they had a beautiful littlegarden where I was and I was
able to just lie on the grassand she offered me a meal and
something to drink and we talkedfor a little bit afterwards and
she took notes of everything Isaid.
She had 10 pages written downand then there was a debriefing
(31:23):
session to where we met againand we talked about my
experiences and how I wasintegrating them, because it is
such a huge thing to integrate.
It took me a long time.
I'm just feeling now it's beenabout three weeks that I'm
starting to get it all togetherand integrate it into my life.
(31:43):
Afterwards I experienced myselfwithout any fear of anything For
three days.
I was inside that glow.
Three days I was not concerned,worried about anything, and I
was just going wow, for thefirst time in my life I'm
getting an experience of whatit's like to live in a body
(32:06):
without fear.
My eyesight came back, my brainfog disappeared, any kind of
physical problems I had werejust.
It was like a suspense in timeand I realized, oh my god, it's
a state of mind, it's a state ofbeing I can see clearly and now
(32:30):
it's like, through the time, myeyesight keeps coming and going
and I'm realizing it's.
And now it's like through thetime, my eyesight keeps coming
and going and I'm realizing it'snot my eyes, it's the state of
mind that I'm in that affects myeyesight and it affects my
sleep and it affects everything.
It even affected my dog.
My dog usually will be off ontheir own and I'm a little
worried.
I let her go without a leash inthe city and sometimes she will
(32:52):
go too far ahead and I'm alittle concerned.
Is she going too far?
And I'm worried about the cars.
In those three days when I hadno fear at all, I walked her.
She was by my side the wholetime, always looking at me,
checking on me.
It was like oh my God, I have aninfluence on my dog when I'm
not in fear, and I realized thatso many physical issues I have
(33:14):
might be caused from a life ofliving in fear.
And now the question is whatwould it be like to live in a
body that doesn't know fear?
I would not have gotten to thispoint in this lifetime.
When I came out of that journey, I said to myself oh my God,
thank goodness, I'm workingextremely hard.
(33:34):
I've worked for 26 years on myhealing, but I would not have
reached that point in thislifetime if I hadn't done this.
It's incredibly powerful.
It was so impactful that I'mgoing to take the training so I
can do that for other people aswell.
I would say that it hasprofoundly changed my perception
of so many things.
You could work a lifetime toget that kind of insight or and
(33:58):
with insight comes freedom rightwhen we see something really
clearly for the first time, thatalone can provoke such a
transformation.
And this is definitely a placewhere we can't escape the
experience right In life.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our
incredible guests for sharingtheir transformative journey
with us today.
Join us next week as we diveinto the healing process and
share more incredible stories oftriumph and resilience.
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