February 4, 2025 • 27 mins
In the inaugural episode of the School Can't Experience podcast, host Leisa Reichelt introduces the concept of 'School Can't' alongside guests Tiffany Westphal and Louise Rogers.
The discussion delves into:
- The intense challenges and emotional distress faced by young people who struggle to attend school including sharing personal experiences,
- Why we say 'School Can't' instead of 'School Refusal',
- Understanding the nervous system, the importance of addressing the root causes of distress, and the role of adults in providing a supportive environment,
- Common stress factors in school environments,
- Practical strategies for parents,
- The importance of preserving the parent-child relationship and co-regulating for better outcomes.
Useful resources:
- Student Stress Investigation Cards by Tiffany Westphal - https://www.studentstressinvestigation.com.au/
- Lives in the Balance (Dr Ross Greene’s Collaborative and Proactive Solutions) - https://livesinthebalance.org/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to the School Can't Experience podcast.
I am Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by
School Can't Australia.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend school can
be a very stressful andisolating experience, but you
are not alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:30):
day.
This is our first School Can'tExperience podcast.
We are starting off with twoabsolute legends of School Can't
Australia community.
Tiffany Westphal and LouiseRogers.
Now, if you are fortunate enoughto be part of the School Can't
Australia Facebook community,these will be very familiar
names to you.
These are the folk whotirelessly administer the
(00:52):
membership and the content formore than 14000 very active
members of that community.
Now, in our first conversationtoday, we're going to talk about
some of the fundamentals ofunderstanding School Can't,
including why do we even call itSchool Can't?
What is going on for our youngpeople when they're experiencing
this and how does our reactionhelp or hinder them?
(01:12):
And why are we seeing more youngpeople struggling to get to
school these days?
Or are we?
Let's get started Tiffany andLouise.
I'd love for you to give us alittle introduction to yourself.
What's your background andexperience with regards to
School Can't?
Lou, do you want to kick us off?
Louise Rogers (01:30):
I'm a mum of two boys aged 13 and 16.
My youngest has a diagnosis ofautism.
My youngest has had schoolattendance difficulties, I will
say since daycare, really.
I'm also a qualified teacher.
When the boys were young, Iretrained to be a teacher.
(01:52):
I have not been able to work inschool since qualifying because
I'm a carer for my young person,and I've had to be at home when
he's not been able to go toschool.
Leisa (02:03):
Tiff.
Tiffany Westphal (02:04):
I'm a mum, of a neurodivergent young person
who is 16 years of age.
She is autistic, an ADHDer andhas learning difficulty.
Lots of difficulty withexpressing herself in writing.
She has dysgraphia.
And school has been aparticularly difficult
experience for her since she wasin grade one was the first time
(02:27):
that she started to expressdistress relation to attending
school.
And she's just entering year 11this year.
I'm also a social worker, and Iwork in this space.
I've been involved with SchoolCan't Australia as a parent
initially, and then as a leaderin helping coordinate the group,
and now as a board member.
(02:49):
I think I first joined, I don'tknow, was it 2019?
It was around the same time Ithink Louise joined a few months
before me.
Louise Rogers (02:56):
I joined in 2018 when my young person was in
grade one.
Leisa (03:02):
Excellent.
School Can't, it's kind of aweird term.
I think we also hear of SchoolRefusal as another term.
Why do we prefer to say schoolcan't?
Tiffany Westphal (03:16):
It doesn't roll off the tongue very easily,
does it, School Can't, but it'sa deliberately sort of
disruptive term that we'vechosen to push back against this
idea that our children arewillfully misbehaving and
refusing to go to school.
In using the term School Can't,we're saying these are kids who
(03:36):
would like to go to school butcan't.
More often than not, these arekids experiencing distress in
relation to attending school.
When we switch from usinglanguage around refusal to
language about capacity-thatfocuses on capacity- we're
directed to think about thechild's perspective, the young
(03:58):
person's perspective, and theirexperience and what's happening
for them.
Instead of focusing on adultjudgments about the nature of
the behaviour and what we'reseeing.
Leisa (04:10):
And what does school can't look like that makes it
different from just like, Idon't feel like going to school
today.
Louise Rogers (04:18):
Both my young people have difficulty going to
school and it looks verydifferent in both of them.
My youngest is one who would bein the category of'I want to go
to school but I can't'.
He wants to get there, but thenwhen he does it's just too much.
We see those fight, flightbehaviours.
He didn't go to school for thelast three terms of Grade 1.
(04:40):
He wasn't getting dressed.
He wasn't getting in the car.
He was feeling sick when he gotto school, he was having those
tummy upsets.
In fact, even after we leftschool, we went back to the car
park near school and he said,'Mummy, I'm feeling really,
really unwell'.
And there was, at that time, noexpectation to go to school
because we'd left it.
But he was still feeling reallyunwell just being near the
(05:03):
school that he used to go towhen he was young.
And difficulty sleeping.
Leisa (05:08):
Going to bed the night before can sometimes be the
beginning of it, can't it?
Tiffany Westphal (05:11):
It occurs across a whole spectrum, from
mild sorts of distress throughto quite severe expressions of
distress.
Everything from just verbalized,Do I have to go to school, I
don't want to go to school', toquite physical responses in the
body.
Even to the point of completeshutdown, losing the ability to
(05:34):
communicate with people, losingthe ability to leave the
bedroom, put clothes on, losingthe ability to be able to eat.
We've been struggling for 10years with on again, off again
School Can't over the fullspectrum of this experience from
quite mild, you know,'do I haveto go to school?
I don't want to go to school'right through to loss of
(05:57):
capacity to be able to evenprocure food for herself in the
house, or a shower, or takingcare of herself that you would
normally expect a teenager to beable to do.
So, it can be quite debilitatingand distressing for carers to
see.
Leisa (06:15):
So, on the days when they're not going to school,
they're not sitting at homehaving a party, enjoying
themselves right?
It's not a victory to not go toschool.
Tiffany Westphal (06:23):
No.
No.
Louise Rogers (06:24):
My young person is often so very upset, because
we're home educating now, butwhen he couldn't get to school,
he'd be very distressed that hecouldn't get in.
Tiffany Westphal (06:34):
There's often a lot of shame that they carry
in relation to not being able togo because they see other people
able to go, and why can't I go?
It's not, you know, there'ssomething wrong with me that I
can't go to school.
And that's really hard to see.
My daughter has said to me, thatshe feels shame every single day
(06:56):
of the school year except whenit's school holidays or a
weekend.
So that's a huge burden, thatour children carry, that our
young people carry.
The expectation is that theyshould be at school.
And, we strongly believe as anorganisation that kids do well
if they can.
That our children are doing thebest that they can with the
(07:19):
resources, knowledge andcapacity that they have and the
supports that they have aroundthem at home and at school.
And that it's not a willfulness,it's not a misbehaviour.
And when we, when we subscribeto that belief about our
children it changes the way wesee them and we move from being
(07:40):
frustrated with them or usingrewards and consequences to gain
compliance to being curiousabout what's going on for them.
Leisa (07:52):
We've talked about distress, we've talked about
fight- flight type situations.
What is going on inside our kidswhen they're having these
experiences?
Tiffany Westphal (08:04):
It really makes a huge difference to
people to understand the nervoussystem and to see things through
a nervous system lens.
That for me, personally, totallychanged my world
Leisa (08:19):
and
Tiffany Westphal (08:19):
the way I saw my child.
So understanding that in orderto be at school and to learn,
our children need to be feelingregulated and safe and
understanding that safety wasnot just physical safety, but
psychological safety.
It was about feeling competent.
It was about feeling liked.
It was about feeling accepted.
(08:40):
It was about not having topretend to be okay.
It was about being able tocommunicate distress and having
people respond appropriately.
It was about not being shamedfor being distressed or being
told that you need to try harderor you just need to push through
your distress.
Stress is normal and we allexperience stress, but for many
(09:01):
of our, kids, experiencingschool in a way that is
chronically stressful.
Their nervous systems areheightened and experiencing, you
know, fight flight response moreoften than they should.
And when you're in a fightflight response, you don't have
capacity to take on learning.
(09:22):
Your body's in survival.
Your body and brain are insurvival mode.
Louise Rogers (09:26):
I think it's also important to acknowledge that
stressors can come from multipleplaces.
And they can accumulate,sometimes when you're seeing a
stress behaviour, you're seeinga straw broke the camel's back.
So suddenly all these thingshave happened, and the young
(09:46):
person just no longer has theresources to cope with this one
more thing.
Leisa (09:52):
Something that really helped me understand what was
going on was this notion thatbehaviour is communication, and
that the behaviour you're seeingin the child is their way of
trying to communicate thedistress they're experiencing
Louise Rogers (10:07):
I prefer the term behaviour is information,
Leisa (10:10):
okay.
Louise Rogers (10:12):
because, the behaviour's not always
intentional.
And behaviour's not alwaysintended to communicate
something, although we oftenlook at behaviour and we infer
what's going on from what we'reseeing.
not always right.
Assumptions are, are, are, aboutwhy we're seeing behaviour is
often where things go wrong.
(10:34):
Adults making assumptions aboutchildren and young persons
behaviour.
so one of the reasons why it'sso important to talk with
children and young people aboutwhat's going on for them.
But not at the time when they'rehaving the difficulty because at
that time they're not going tobe receptive to us asking more
questions because that's justone more thing on top of the
(10:56):
stress they're already feeling.
We need to wait for a time whenthey're, when they're feeling
calm and connected and when theyhave capacity to talk with us
and have a conversation aboutwhat's wrong.
I
Tiffany Westphal (11:10):
love that.
I think it's so important, thatwe're mindful of that switch in
ourselves in terms of the adultjudgment about what's going on
and being curious about what'sgoing on, for the child or young
person.
When we have judgmental thoughtsabout something, it's
communicated in our bodylanguage, to the other person.
(11:33):
And that then presents a barrierto them feeling safe telling us
what's happening but when we'recurious, that opens doors for
them to be able to share with usand give us information it helps
them feel safe.
So, yeah, I think the voices andlived experience of our young
people is something that wereally need to tune in to.
Leisa (11:55):
Yeah, it's such an interesting transformation,
isn't it?
Because I think a lot of thetime as parents traditionally,
and maybe thinking about the waywe were parented as well, Your
first instinct is to come at itfrom a discipline perspective
and just go, okay, I just needto make it really clear that
(12:15):
there is no option but to getout of bed, put your uniform on,
go to school.
That's what I did.
That's what you'll do.
That's what everyone does.
Just do it.
And to learn the hard way thatthat approach will not work.
And the reasons for why it's notgoing to work is just, it's so
(12:36):
important.
Tiffany Westphal (12:37):
well, the reasons are that it doesn't
identify the stressors and itdoesn't do anything to alleviate
what's going on, what's causingthe stress, what's causing the
distress for the child.
So when we use rewards andconsequences to gain compliance
with going to school, we'reessentially just saying to the
kid, look, try harder, you needto try harder.
It's you that's got the problemhere and your behaviour is not
(12:59):
up to scratch and you need tolift your game.
Leisa (13:03):
Absolutely.
Let's talk about some of thecommon things that are really
driving some of this distress atschool What would be some of the
typical things that kids who areexperiencing school can't are
struggling with, in atraditional mainstream school
environment?
Tiffany Westphal (13:21):
Yeah, look, there are heaps.
I think one of the reallyinteresting things, is that
members of our community arelargely supporting students who
are neurodivergent, who areautistic or, ADHDers, or young
people who have learning orsensory processing difficulties.
In my work as a social worker,I'm often finding that
(13:42):
neurodivergent young people areindicating that there are often
over 30 different things atschool that are causing them
stress.
Sometimes there's not one singlething.
It's a whole lot of littlethings.
And every child or young personhas a different collection of
stressors that makes up thefabric of stress in their life,
(14:04):
at school or at home or withinthe community.
And different experiences ofbeing responded to when they're
distressed as well.
Leisa (14:15):
The ability to actually articulate those stressors can
vary a lot too, can't it?
My son is autistic and only veryrecently did we discover how
much smell affects him becausehe has just always assumed that
everybody is experiencing smellsthe same way that he is and that
(14:36):
he's just not doing a very goodjob of coping with it.
And so it was only very recentlythat we were able to go, Oh,
this is something that's reallyparticularly affecting you.
If there's something that isvery smelly for him, he can't
think about anything else.
Definitely not maths.
And he really wants to thinkabout maths, but he can't if
he's thinking about a smell, ittook many years for us to be
(14:57):
able to find a technique, whichended up just being like a deck
of cards where he could go, thisis the most annoying thing for
me is smell,
Louise Rogers (15:04):
Tiffany has a resource that she's developed
called the Student StressInvestigation and it is a set of
cards about the different sortsof stressors that students may
experience in school.
They range from difficultieswith relationships to
difficulties with sensory thingssuch as smell and noise
Tiffany Westphal (15:22):
It surprises me how often kids say that one
of the difficulties theyexperience is using the toilets
at school
Louise Rogers (15:27):
yeah.
Tiffany Westphal (15:28):
And how they're not drinking in order to
avoid having to go to thetoilets at school, for a whole
lot of reasons.
Whether it's the smell, thephysical state of the toilets,
the noises, fear of beingassaulted or, wrongly accused of
vaping or smoking.
There's lots of reasons.
And eating at school is anotherthing that often comes up.
(15:49):
Young people can't eat at schoolfor a whole lot of reasons,
whether it's the food changestexture over the course of the
day.
There's not enough time to eatin the classroom, or it's too
distracting and so I forget toeat or I'm put off by the smell
of somebody else's salamisandwich, or, just too anxious
to eat and I, I can't swallow,
Leisa (16:11):
it seems that this School Can't issue is more of an issue
now than it's ever been.
Like if you think back to, whenwe were all going to school,
didn't seem to be, as much of aknown or acknowledged thing,
like kids just went to school.
(16:33):
Do you have a perspective onwhat's going on now?
Tiffany Westphal (16:39):
I'm not sure if that's true, but it does seem
like there's a lot more of it atthe moment.
I think back in our day, therewere a lot of kids who were
truant from school.
Louise and I have often talkedabout how maybe the only
difference between a child whois absent from school without a
parent's knowledge and a childwho's absent from school with a
(17:02):
parent's knowledge is how thechild or young person feels.
the parent might respond totheir expression of difficulty.
So if they think that the parentis not going to respond in a
compassionate way and it's goingto lead to punishment, then
they're not going to have anopen door to have a conversation
(17:26):
with about what's causing themdistress and how they are not
comfortable at school So I thinkwe also have to look at stress
levels in the community, becausethat impacts our capacity as
adults, both as, you know, asteachers in schools, but also as
adults at home, supporting youngpeople to be available for those
conversations about what'sdistressing I think schools are
(17:50):
really stressful places at themoment for teachers as well as
for students.
It's really hard for us to findstaff for schools because
teachers are saying this is areally stressful job and I'm out
of here.
I think we really need to lookat what's happening, what school
looks like, for teachers andteacher nervous systems, as well
(18:10):
as for young people's nervoussystems.
Louise Rogers (18:12):
I went into teaching, believing that,
education was about empowerment.
It was about giving you skills.
Developing thinking skills andcritical thinking skills.
As a parent coming into school,it got to a point where I felt
like school seemed more aboutcompliance a certain way of
being and doing.
(18:33):
And for me that was adisconnect, a conflict.
And I'm still thinking about it.
I want my young person to get toa point where he can say, well,
the rule might be this, but thishas happened, and I need to look
at my values to determine what Ineed to do now.
(18:55):
Maybe this is a rule that weneed to change.
Leisa (18:58):
School is great for lots of kids.
Lots of kids love it.
And have an amazing time andhave a hugely enriched
experience and love it.
So it's not that it doesn't workfor some kids, I found you need
to separate your personalexperience of how you went
through the education system Icame up through a pretty
academic tradition and followedall the rules
Louise Rogers (19:20):
mm, mm, yeah,
Leisa (19:20):
did all the things that you were supposed to do at
school and judged my value byhow good my marks were and so it
is, it's a really interestingmind shift when you have a child
who doesn't fit that mold tochange your value system, your
judgment system.
Something like that, to be moreaccommodating.
And I think maybe there'ssomething in that.
There just needs to be a greaterbreadth of options that
(19:44):
accommodate more children withmore different needs.
Louise Rogers (19:48):
I think we need to be a lot more flexible in the
way we respond to children andyoung people.
We need to first of allrecognise when they're having
difficulty.
You know, we, we created ourpolicies and rules and
legislations and, and we canrecreate those.
Leisa (20:04):
And we will talk a lot more in the next couple of
episodes about things that wecan do in response to the system
as it is right now to helpsupport our kids better and give
them more options and bettersupport as well.
I'd love to ask you, just as weclose off now, to think about
someone who is just in thatreally early stage of
(20:25):
identifying school can't intheir child, they're seeing
their child really struggle toget up and go to school.
What would you want them toknow?
Tiffany Westphal (20:38):
I think lots of us resort to parenting skills
that are going to get quick,immediate results.
I did things like trick my childinto going to school.
I did things like, do deals inorder to get her to go to
school.
I did a lot of things that Ireally regret which damaged our
(21:00):
relationship.
And so there was a period of, ofrepair, in order to get her to
feel safe.
giving me information andtelling me things that were
upsetting her.
The school didn't understand itas a stress response, and their
ideas for how to, assist us wereto put messaging in the
(21:25):
newsletter about attendance, tospeak to the kids about how
important it is to get to schoolon time, and to give the child a
special job in the mornings atschool so that they'd want to
come because they had to helpfeed the reptiles or the frogs
or, The first breath of freshair I got from the school was
the teacher who said to me justbring your child to school when
(21:46):
you can and try not to get upsetwith her about being late.
It's better that she arrivefeeling calm and okay about
herself.
It's better that you arrive lateand she walk in with a calm
nervous system.
That for me was the first timeanybody said something to me at
school that made me feel like Ihad permission to respond to my
(22:11):
child's nervous system needs.
Louise Rogers (22:13):
For me there's a couple of things.
One is to trust your gut.
Because we've got a lot ofpeople telling us that our
children are fine or will befine once the handover is done
and once they're in school, um,but
Tiffany Westphal (22:30):
Yes.
Louise Rogers (22:30):
The truth is that often times they're not even
from when they're young.
So trusting your gut.
But the other thing, I havelearned so much about adult
regulation now, that's the otherthing.
Children learn to regulate theirnervous systems through co
regulation with adults andpeers.
Adults are the ones with maturenervous systems.
(22:53):
We can learn awareness andstrategies to regulate our own
nervous systems so that we canbe a calm sounding board for our
young people when they are indistress instead of reacting to
their distress and becomingdistressed by it.
And if I could go back in timeand be that person when my child
(23:17):
was young, that, that would beamazing.
But, you know, that's somethingthat I have learnt, along my
journey.
So, you know, I can, I can dothose sorts of things now.
I didn't know about it then.
but that's one thing I wish Icould take back to those
moments.
Leisa (23:36):
Two things that really stood out for me there that I
really resonate with is Tiffanylike what you said about trying
to build that trustingrelationship between you and the
child and protecting thatrelationship, I think is
something that was superimportant as a learning for me
as well.
And then Lou what you saidabout.
Trying to be the mature, stablenervous system, even though it
(23:58):
can be really hard at times,like for you to be that, that
stability and that calmness forthem to latch onto when they
need it.
I think it's super important.
Tiffany Westphal (24:07):
It's so stressful for parents and
carers, you know, when yourchild can't go to school because
often it's impacting yourability to get other children to
school get to your place ofemployment on time or get to
appointments on time and youjust don't know from one day to
the next what's going to happen,you know, is today going to be a
day that we're two hours late toschool and we get there or is
(24:28):
today going to be a day that wedon't get there at all.
So it makes it really hard toplan.
And it's also really hard forparents, because you see other
people getting their kids toschool and people, people shame
you.
The first response usually is toblame the parent, it's poor
parenting.
You just need to be stricter.
Just bring them in theirpyjamas, push harder.
(24:52):
So you can become quiteisolated, as well.
Even just from the simple act ofthat you're not at the school
gate when you're in primaryschool dropping your kid off.
So you're not connecting withcommunity anymore with those
little incidental chats you havewith neighbours, that you see as
you're dropping kids off.
Louise Rogers (25:10):
That's actually another reason in terms of
school changing.
I think our communication andwillingness to speak about
school attendance difficultieshas changed and part of that is
social media and being able toconnect online with others
because at the school gate, thisis really isolating.
You might be in the car park oryou might not even have made it
(25:31):
out of the house.
And so, you're not connectingwith the other parents, you're
not generally seeing this unlessthere's another parent stuck in
the car park with you.
But now we've been able to reachacross the internet and connect
with other parents who areexperiencing this with their
young person.
And reflecting on this andtalking on this, we're realising
(25:54):
it's far more common than any ofus suspected
Leisa (25:57):
Joining that Facebook group was an absolute game
changer for me.
It was, yeah, it was a
Louise Rogers (26:01):
Oh my goodness.
Leisa (26:03):
What a sanity saver
Tiffany Westphal (26:04):
Yeah.
Louise Rogers (26:04):
Just to see the number of people.
Look how many of us.
Leisa (26:09):
Having such common experiences.
It's incredible.
Okay.
Let's wrap up now, thank you somuch for coming and sharing your
experiences today, Tiffany andLouise.
We'll be back in our nextepisode to take the next step
into some practical ideas aroundwhat we can do to help support
our kids who are experiencingSchool Can't, um, and really
(26:33):
looking forward to digging intothat with you very soon.
We've popped a whole bunch ofuseful links into the show
notes, including links to theSchool Can't Australia website,
the Facebook community,Tiffany's Student Stress
Investigation cards, which aregreat, as well as a way for you
to give us some feedback on thepodcast and maybe even volunteer
to share your own School Can'texperience on a future podcast
(26:54):
episode.
We would love to hear from you.
Leisa Reichelt (26:56):
And finally, please consider donating to
School Can't Australia, your taxdeductible donations assist us
to raise community awareness to,partner with researchers, to
produce resources like webinarsand this very podcast which
assist people who are supportingchildren and young people
experiencing School Can't.
Thanks again for listening, andwe'll talk again soon.
(27:18):
Take care.
Leisa (27:18):
Thank you.
Hello, and welcome to the School Can't Experience podcast.
I am Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by
School Can't Australia.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend school can
be a very stressful andisolating experience, but you
are not alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:30):
day.
This is our first School Can'tExperience podcast.
We are starting off with twoabsolute legends of School Can't
Australia community.
Tiffany Westphal and LouiseRogers.
Now, if you are fortunate enoughto be part of the School Can't
Australia Facebook community,these will be very familiar
names to you.
These are the folk whotirelessly administer the
(00:52):
membership and the content formore than 14000 very active
members of that community.
Now, in our first conversationtoday, we're going to talk about
some of the fundamentals ofunderstanding School Can't,
including why do we even call itSchool Can't?
What is going on for our youngpeople when they're experiencing
this and how does our reactionhelp or hinder them?
(01:12):
And why are we seeing more youngpeople struggling to get to
school these days?
Or are we?
Let's get started Tiffany andLouise.
I'd love for you to give us alittle introduction to yourself.
What's your background andexperience with regards to
School Can't?
Lou, do you want to kick us off?
Louise Rogers (01:30):
I'm a mum of two boys aged 13 and 16.
My youngest has a diagnosis ofautism.
My youngest has had schoolattendance difficulties, I will
say since daycare, really.
I'm also a qualified teacher.
When the boys were young, Iretrained to be a teacher.
(01:52):
I have not been able to work inschool since qualifying because
I'm a carer for my young person,and I've had to be at home when
he's not been able to go toschool.
Leisa (02:03):
Tiff.
Tiffany Westphal (02:04):
I'm a mum, of a neurodivergent young person
who is 16 years of age.
She is autistic, an ADHDer andhas learning difficulty.
Lots of difficulty withexpressing herself in writing.
She has dysgraphia.
And school has been aparticularly difficult
experience for her since she wasin grade one was the first time
(02:27):
that she started to expressdistress relation to attending
school.
And she's just entering year 11this year.
I'm also a social worker, and Iwork in this space.
I've been involved with SchoolCan't Australia as a parent
initially, and then as a leaderin helping coordinate the group,
and now as a board member.
(02:49):
I think I first joined, I don'tknow, was it 2019?
It was around the same time Ithink Louise joined a few months
before me.
Louise Rogers (02:56):
I joined in 2018 when my young person was in
grade one.
Leisa (03:02):
Excellent.
School Can't, it's kind of aweird term.
I think we also hear of SchoolRefusal as another term.
Why do we prefer to say schoolcan't?
Tiffany Westphal (03:16):
It doesn't roll off the tongue very easily,
does it, School Can't, but it'sa deliberately sort of
disruptive term that we'vechosen to push back against this
idea that our children arewillfully misbehaving and
refusing to go to school.
In using the term School Can't,we're saying these are kids who
(03:36):
would like to go to school butcan't.
More often than not, these arekids experiencing distress in
relation to attending school.
When we switch from usinglanguage around refusal to
language about capacity-thatfocuses on capacity- we're
directed to think about thechild's perspective, the young
(03:58):
person's perspective, and theirexperience and what's happening
for them.
Instead of focusing on adultjudgments about the nature of
the behaviour and what we'reseeing.
Leisa (04:10):
And what does school can't look like that makes it
different from just like, Idon't feel like going to school
today.
Louise Rogers (04:18):
Both my young people have difficulty going to
school and it looks verydifferent in both of them.
My youngest is one who would bein the category of'I want to go
to school but I can't'.
He wants to get there, but thenwhen he does it's just too much.
We see those fight, flightbehaviours.
He didn't go to school for thelast three terms of Grade 1.
(04:40):
He wasn't getting dressed.
He wasn't getting in the car.
He was feeling sick when he gotto school, he was having those
tummy upsets.
In fact, even after we leftschool, we went back to the car
park near school and he said,'Mummy, I'm feeling really,
really unwell'.
And there was, at that time, noexpectation to go to school
because we'd left it.
But he was still feeling reallyunwell just being near the
(05:03):
school that he used to go towhen he was young.
And difficulty sleeping.
Leisa (05:08):
Going to bed the night before can sometimes be the
beginning of it, can't it?
Tiffany Westphal (05:11):
It occurs across a whole spectrum, from
mild sorts of distress throughto quite severe expressions of
distress.
Everything from just verbalized,Do I have to go to school, I
don't want to go to school', toquite physical responses in the
body.
Even to the point of completeshutdown, losing the ability to
(05:34):
communicate with people, losingthe ability to leave the
bedroom, put clothes on, losingthe ability to be able to eat.
We've been struggling for 10years with on again, off again
School Can't over the fullspectrum of this experience from
quite mild, you know,'do I haveto go to school?
I don't want to go to school'right through to loss of
(05:57):
capacity to be able to evenprocure food for herself in the
house, or a shower, or takingcare of herself that you would
normally expect a teenager to beable to do.
So, it can be quite debilitatingand distressing for carers to
see.
Leisa (06:15):
So, on the days when they're not going to school,
they're not sitting at homehaving a party, enjoying
themselves right?
It's not a victory to not go toschool.
Tiffany Westphal (06:23):
No.
No.
Louise Rogers (06:24):
My young person is often so very upset, because
we're home educating now, butwhen he couldn't get to school,
he'd be very distressed that hecouldn't get in.
Tiffany Westphal (06:34):
There's often a lot of shame that they carry
in relation to not being able togo because they see other people
able to go, and why can't I go?
It's not, you know, there'ssomething wrong with me that I
can't go to school.
And that's really hard to see.
My daughter has said to me, thatshe feels shame every single day
(06:56):
of the school year except whenit's school holidays or a
weekend.
So that's a huge burden, thatour children carry, that our
young people carry.
The expectation is that theyshould be at school.
And, we strongly believe as anorganisation that kids do well
if they can.
That our children are doing thebest that they can with the
(07:19):
resources, knowledge andcapacity that they have and the
supports that they have aroundthem at home and at school.
And that it's not a willfulness,it's not a misbehaviour.
And when we, when we subscribeto that belief about our
children it changes the way wesee them and we move from being
(07:40):
frustrated with them or usingrewards and consequences to gain
compliance to being curiousabout what's going on for them.
Leisa (07:52):
We've talked about distress, we've talked about
fight- flight type situations.
What is going on inside our kidswhen they're having these
experiences?
Tiffany Westphal (08:04):
It really makes a huge difference to
people to understand the nervoussystem and to see things through
a nervous system lens.
That for me, personally, totallychanged my world
Leisa (08:19):
and
Tiffany Westphal (08:19):
the way I saw my child.
So understanding that in orderto be at school and to learn,
our children need to be feelingregulated and safe and
understanding that safety wasnot just physical safety, but
psychological safety.
It was about feeling competent.
It was about feeling liked.
It was about feeling accepted.
(08:40):
It was about not having topretend to be okay.
It was about being able tocommunicate distress and having
people respond appropriately.
It was about not being shamedfor being distressed or being
told that you need to try harderor you just need to push through
your distress.
Stress is normal and we allexperience stress, but for many
(09:01):
of our, kids, experiencingschool in a way that is
chronically stressful.
Their nervous systems areheightened and experiencing, you
know, fight flight response moreoften than they should.
And when you're in a fightflight response, you don't have
capacity to take on learning.
(09:22):
Your body's in survival.
Your body and brain are insurvival mode.
Louise Rogers (09:26):
I think it's also important to acknowledge that
stressors can come from multipleplaces.
And they can accumulate,sometimes when you're seeing a
stress behaviour, you're seeinga straw broke the camel's back.
So suddenly all these thingshave happened, and the young
(09:46):
person just no longer has theresources to cope with this one
more thing.
Leisa (09:52):
Something that really helped me understand what was
going on was this notion thatbehaviour is communication, and
that the behaviour you're seeingin the child is their way of
trying to communicate thedistress they're experiencing
Louise Rogers (10:07):
I prefer the term behaviour is information,
Leisa (10:10):
okay.
Louise Rogers (10:12):
because, the behaviour's not always
intentional.
And behaviour's not alwaysintended to communicate
something, although we oftenlook at behaviour and we infer
what's going on from what we'reseeing.
not always right.
Assumptions are, are, are, aboutwhy we're seeing behaviour is
often where things go wrong.
(10:34):
Adults making assumptions aboutchildren and young persons
behaviour.
so one of the reasons why it'sso important to talk with
children and young people aboutwhat's going on for them.
But not at the time when they'rehaving the difficulty because at
that time they're not going tobe receptive to us asking more
questions because that's justone more thing on top of the
(10:56):
stress they're already feeling.
We need to wait for a time whenthey're, when they're feeling
calm and connected and when theyhave capacity to talk with us
and have a conversation aboutwhat's wrong.
I
Tiffany Westphal (11:10):
love that.
I think it's so important, thatwe're mindful of that switch in
ourselves in terms of the adultjudgment about what's going on
and being curious about what'sgoing on, for the child or young
person.
When we have judgmental thoughtsabout something, it's
communicated in our bodylanguage, to the other person.
(11:33):
And that then presents a barrierto them feeling safe telling us
what's happening but when we'recurious, that opens doors for
them to be able to share with usand give us information it helps
them feel safe.
So, yeah, I think the voices andlived experience of our young
people is something that wereally need to tune in to.
Leisa (11:55):
Yeah, it's such an interesting transformation,
isn't it?
Because I think a lot of thetime as parents traditionally,
and maybe thinking about the waywe were parented as well, Your
first instinct is to come at itfrom a discipline perspective
and just go, okay, I just needto make it really clear that
(12:15):
there is no option but to getout of bed, put your uniform on,
go to school.
That's what I did.
That's what you'll do.
That's what everyone does.
Just do it.
And to learn the hard way thatthat approach will not work.
And the reasons for why it's notgoing to work is just, it's so
(12:36):
important.
Tiffany Westphal (12:37):
well, the reasons are that it doesn't
identify the stressors and itdoesn't do anything to alleviate
what's going on, what's causingthe stress, what's causing the
distress for the child.
So when we use rewards andconsequences to gain compliance
with going to school, we'reessentially just saying to the
kid, look, try harder, you needto try harder.
It's you that's got the problemhere and your behaviour is not
(12:59):
up to scratch and you need tolift your game.
Leisa (13:03):
Absolutely.
Let's talk about some of thecommon things that are really
driving some of this distress atschool What would be some of the
typical things that kids who areexperiencing school can't are
struggling with, in atraditional mainstream school
environment?
Tiffany Westphal (13:21):
Yeah, look, there are heaps.
I think one of the reallyinteresting things, is that
members of our community arelargely supporting students who
are neurodivergent, who areautistic or, ADHDers, or young
people who have learning orsensory processing difficulties.
In my work as a social worker,I'm often finding that
(13:42):
neurodivergent young people areindicating that there are often
over 30 different things atschool that are causing them
stress.
Sometimes there's not one singlething.
It's a whole lot of littlethings.
And every child or young personhas a different collection of
stressors that makes up thefabric of stress in their life,
(14:04):
at school or at home or withinthe community.
And different experiences ofbeing responded to when they're
distressed as well.
Leisa (14:15):
The ability to actually articulate those stressors can
vary a lot too, can't it?
My son is autistic and only veryrecently did we discover how
much smell affects him becausehe has just always assumed that
everybody is experiencing smellsthe same way that he is and that
(14:36):
he's just not doing a very goodjob of coping with it.
And so it was only very recentlythat we were able to go, Oh,
this is something that's reallyparticularly affecting you.
If there's something that isvery smelly for him, he can't
think about anything else.
Definitely not maths.
And he really wants to thinkabout maths, but he can't if
he's thinking about a smell, ittook many years for us to be
(14:57):
able to find a technique, whichended up just being like a deck
of cards where he could go, thisis the most annoying thing for
me is smell,
Louise Rogers (15:04):
Tiffany has a resource that she's developed
called the Student StressInvestigation and it is a set of
cards about the different sortsof stressors that students may
experience in school.
They range from difficultieswith relationships to
difficulties with sensory thingssuch as smell and noise
Tiffany Westphal (15:22):
It surprises me how often kids say that one
of the difficulties theyexperience is using the toilets
at school
Louise Rogers (15:27):
yeah.
Tiffany Westphal (15:28):
And how they're not drinking in order to
avoid having to go to thetoilets at school, for a whole
lot of reasons.
Whether it's the smell, thephysical state of the toilets,
the noises, fear of beingassaulted or, wrongly accused of
vaping or smoking.
There's lots of reasons.
And eating at school is anotherthing that often comes up.
(15:49):
Young people can't eat at schoolfor a whole lot of reasons,
whether it's the food changestexture over the course of the
day.
There's not enough time to eatin the classroom, or it's too
distracting and so I forget toeat or I'm put off by the smell
of somebody else's salamisandwich, or, just too anxious
to eat and I, I can't swallow,
Leisa (16:11):
it seems that this School Can't issue is more of an issue
now than it's ever been.
Like if you think back to, whenwe were all going to school,
didn't seem to be, as much of aknown or acknowledged thing,
like kids just went to school.
(16:33):
Do you have a perspective onwhat's going on now?
Tiffany Westphal (16:39):
I'm not sure if that's true, but it does seem
like there's a lot more of it atthe moment.
I think back in our day, therewere a lot of kids who were
truant from school.
Louise and I have often talkedabout how maybe the only
difference between a child whois absent from school without a
parent's knowledge and a childwho's absent from school with a
(17:02):
parent's knowledge is how thechild or young person feels.
the parent might respond totheir expression of difficulty.
So if they think that the parentis not going to respond in a
compassionate way and it's goingto lead to punishment, then
they're not going to have anopen door to have a conversation
(17:26):
with about what's causing themdistress and how they are not
comfortable at school So I thinkwe also have to look at stress
levels in the community, becausethat impacts our capacity as
adults, both as, you know, asteachers in schools, but also as
adults at home, supporting youngpeople to be available for those
conversations about what'sdistressing I think schools are
(17:50):
really stressful places at themoment for teachers as well as
for students.
It's really hard for us to findstaff for schools because
teachers are saying this is areally stressful job and I'm out
of here.
I think we really need to lookat what's happening, what school
looks like, for teachers andteacher nervous systems, as well
(18:10):
as for young people's nervoussystems.
Louise Rogers (18:12):
I went into teaching, believing that,
education was about empowerment.
It was about giving you skills.
Developing thinking skills andcritical thinking skills.
As a parent coming into school,it got to a point where I felt
like school seemed more aboutcompliance a certain way of
being and doing.
(18:33):
And for me that was adisconnect, a conflict.
And I'm still thinking about it.
I want my young person to get toa point where he can say, well,
the rule might be this, but thishas happened, and I need to look
at my values to determine what Ineed to do now.
(18:55):
Maybe this is a rule that weneed to change.
Leisa (18:58):
School is great for lots of kids.
Lots of kids love it.
And have an amazing time andhave a hugely enriched
experience and love it.
So it's not that it doesn't workfor some kids, I found you need
to separate your personalexperience of how you went
through the education system Icame up through a pretty
academic tradition and followedall the rules
Louise Rogers (19:20):
mm, mm, yeah,
Leisa (19:20):
did all the things that you were supposed to do at
school and judged my value byhow good my marks were and so it
is, it's a really interestingmind shift when you have a child
who doesn't fit that mold tochange your value system, your
judgment system.
Something like that, to be moreaccommodating.
And I think maybe there'ssomething in that.
There just needs to be a greaterbreadth of options that
(19:44):
accommodate more children withmore different needs.
Louise Rogers (19:48):
I think we need to be a lot more flexible in the
way we respond to children andyoung people.
We need to first of allrecognise when they're having
difficulty.
You know, we, we created ourpolicies and rules and
legislations and, and we canrecreate those.
Leisa (20:04):
And we will talk a lot more in the next couple of
episodes about things that wecan do in response to the system
as it is right now to helpsupport our kids better and give
them more options and bettersupport as well.
I'd love to ask you, just as weclose off now, to think about
someone who is just in thatreally early stage of
(20:25):
identifying school can't intheir child, they're seeing
their child really struggle toget up and go to school.
What would you want them toknow?
Tiffany Westphal (20:38):
I think lots of us resort to parenting skills
that are going to get quick,immediate results.
I did things like trick my childinto going to school.
I did things like, do deals inorder to get her to go to
school.
I did a lot of things that Ireally regret which damaged our
(21:00):
relationship.
And so there was a period of, ofrepair, in order to get her to
feel safe.
giving me information andtelling me things that were
upsetting her.
The school didn't understand itas a stress response, and their
ideas for how to, assist us wereto put messaging in the
(21:25):
newsletter about attendance, tospeak to the kids about how
important it is to get to schoolon time, and to give the child a
special job in the mornings atschool so that they'd want to
come because they had to helpfeed the reptiles or the frogs
or, The first breath of freshair I got from the school was
the teacher who said to me justbring your child to school when
(21:46):
you can and try not to get upsetwith her about being late.
It's better that she arrivefeeling calm and okay about
herself.
It's better that you arrive lateand she walk in with a calm
nervous system.
That for me was the first timeanybody said something to me at
school that made me feel like Ihad permission to respond to my
(22:11):
child's nervous system needs.
Louise Rogers (22:13):
For me there's a couple of things.
One is to trust your gut.
Because we've got a lot ofpeople telling us that our
children are fine or will befine once the handover is done
and once they're in school, um,but
Tiffany Westphal (22:30):
Yes.
Louise Rogers (22:30):
The truth is that often times they're not even
from when they're young.
So trusting your gut.
But the other thing, I havelearned so much about adult
regulation now, that's the otherthing.
Children learn to regulate theirnervous systems through co
regulation with adults andpeers.
Adults are the ones with maturenervous systems.
(22:53):
We can learn awareness andstrategies to regulate our own
nervous systems so that we canbe a calm sounding board for our
young people when they are indistress instead of reacting to
their distress and becomingdistressed by it.
And if I could go back in timeand be that person when my child
(23:17):
was young, that, that would beamazing.
But, you know, that's somethingthat I have learnt, along my
journey.
So, you know, I can, I can dothose sorts of things now.
I didn't know about it then.
but that's one thing I wish Icould take back to those
moments.
Leisa (23:36):
Two things that really stood out for me there that I
really resonate with is Tiffanylike what you said about trying
to build that trustingrelationship between you and the
child and protecting thatrelationship, I think is
something that was superimportant as a learning for me
as well.
And then Lou what you saidabout.
Trying to be the mature, stablenervous system, even though it
(23:58):
can be really hard at times,like for you to be that, that
stability and that calmness forthem to latch onto when they
need it.
I think it's super important.
Tiffany Westphal (24:07):
It's so stressful for parents and
carers, you know, when yourchild can't go to school because
often it's impacting yourability to get other children to
school get to your place ofemployment on time or get to
appointments on time and youjust don't know from one day to
the next what's going to happen,you know, is today going to be a
day that we're two hours late toschool and we get there or is
(24:28):
today going to be a day that wedon't get there at all.
So it makes it really hard toplan.
And it's also really hard forparents, because you see other
people getting their kids toschool and people, people shame
you.
The first response usually is toblame the parent, it's poor
parenting.
You just need to be stricter.
Just bring them in theirpyjamas, push harder.
(24:52):
So you can become quiteisolated, as well.
Even just from the simple act ofthat you're not at the school
gate when you're in primaryschool dropping your kid off.
So you're not connecting withcommunity anymore with those
little incidental chats you havewith neighbours, that you see as
you're dropping kids off.
Louise Rogers (25:10):
That's actually another reason in terms of
school changing.
I think our communication andwillingness to speak about
school attendance difficultieshas changed and part of that is
social media and being able toconnect online with others
because at the school gate, thisis really isolating.
You might be in the car park oryou might not even have made it
(25:31):
out of the house.
And so, you're not connectingwith the other parents, you're
not generally seeing this unlessthere's another parent stuck in
the car park with you.
But now we've been able to reachacross the internet and connect
with other parents who areexperiencing this with their
young person.
And reflecting on this andtalking on this, we're realising
(25:54):
it's far more common than any ofus suspected
Leisa (25:57):
Joining that Facebook group was an absolute game
changer for me.
It was, yeah, it was a
Louise Rogers (26:01):
Oh my goodness.
Leisa (26:03):
What a sanity saver
Tiffany Westphal (26:04):
Yeah.
Louise Rogers (26:04):
Just to see the number of people.
Look how many of us.
Leisa (26:09):
Having such common experiences.
It's incredible.
Okay.
Let's wrap up now, thank you somuch for coming and sharing your
experiences today, Tiffany andLouise.
We'll be back in our nextepisode to take the next step
into some practical ideas aroundwhat we can do to help support
our kids who are experiencingSchool Can't, um, and really
(26:33):
looking forward to digging intothat with you very soon.
We've popped a whole bunch ofuseful links into the show
notes, including links to theSchool Can't Australia website,
the Facebook community,Tiffany's Student Stress
Investigation cards, which aregreat, as well as a way for you
to give us some feedback on thepodcast and maybe even volunteer
to share your own School Can'texperience on a future podcast
(26:54):
episode.
We would love to hear from you.
Leisa Reichelt (26:56):
And finally, please consider donating to
School Can't Australia, your taxdeductible donations assist us
to raise community awareness to,partner with researchers, to
produce resources like webinarsand this very podcast which
assist people who are supportingchildren and young people
experiencing School Can't.
Thanks again for listening, andwe'll talk again soon.
(27:18):
Take care.
Leisa (27:18):
Thank you.
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