May 19, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by School Can’t Australia’s Tiffany Westphal and expert guest, Anna Clarke, to discuss the importance of neurodiversity affirming care.
Anna, a psychologist and play therapist, shares her personal and professional journey as a late-diagnosed autistic and ADHD individual. The conversation explores the principles and challenges of neuro affirming care, the role of play therapy in connecting with neurodivergent children, and the significance of consent in therapeutic settings.
Parents and carers will gain valuable insights into advocating for their neurodivergent children and finding the right professional support.
00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast
01:09 Meet Anna Clarke: A Journey to Neurodivergent Affirming Care
02:43 Understanding Play Therapy
08:30 The Importance of Consent in Therapy
17:20 Challenges in Finding Neurodiversity Affirming Practitioners
33:20 Guidance for Parents Seeking Neurodiversity Affirming Practitioners
37:15 Conclusion and Resources
Recommended Resources
- Divergent Futures - https://www.divergentfutures.com/
- How to be a good neurodivergent ally (PDF) - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/650b364b717f4b135be85c38/t/6800c11b72e0f14456551c18/1744879917597/How+to+be+a+good+ally+Neuroaffirming+edition.pdf
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person whois struggling to attend school
can be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more of us
around the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:27):
day.
Today I'm joined by TiffanyWestphal from School Can't
Australia, as well as AnnaClarke.
Anna is a psychologist and playtherapist, as well as a
professional educator on neuroaffirming care at her company
called Divergent Futures.
In this episode, we unpack whatneurodivergent affirming care
looks like and why it's socritical for our neurodivergent
(00:50):
young people.
Anna also gives us a bit of asneak peek behind the
professional curtain as to whyneuro affirming care can be so
difficult to find and someadvice on how parents and carers
can be more confident inadvocating for the right level
of care for our kids.
Let's do it.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
What's your background story,Anna?
(01:11):
What do we need to know aboutyou?
What's brought you to where youare today?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (01:15):
Okay, so yeah, I'm Anna.
I'm autistic and ADHD.
I'm a psychologist and a playtherapist and a mental health
advocate in general, I'm a latediagnosed neurodivergent person,
I had initially started mycareer more in the social
workspace, doing a lot of workwith children and young people
(01:36):
in out-of-home care, fostercare, involved with child
protection services, that kindof thing.
And then, as I started studyingpsychology later on, that's
when I walked into a new clinicwhere I had a placement and
everyone looked at me and toldme I needed to go get diagnosed
as being autistic and ADHD'cause it was a clinic that was
(01:59):
very much focussed onneurodiversity affirming
practice.
I sought my own diagnosis,which confirmed it pretty
quickly.
So when I got the diagnosis,everything suddenly started
falling into place to help memake a bit more sense of my
life.
That sort of inspired me and Iwas fortunate enough to
collaborate with a colleaguecalled Monique Mitchelson, to
(02:23):
create a company calledDivergent Futures, which focuses
on education and training aboutneurodiversity.
So we really are trying toshare those messages about
affirming practice so that, Iguess things are caught a lot
earlier for others, and we canget all of that good information
out there now.
Leisa Reichelt (02:42):
Fantastic.
I wanna do a little teeny tinydiversion, if you don't mind.
Play therapist.
Can you talk a little bit aboutplay therapy and what a play
therapist does?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (02:52):
So, like I said, I had a background
working in social work before Iwent and finished my psychology
training.
And when I was a social worker,working specifically in out of
home care, I realized that Ifelt like the days where I was
actually doing somethingbeneficial was where I was kind
of sitting and playing withkids, living in foster care or
(03:15):
residential care.
It wasn't these big, deep andmeaningful conversations or
anything.
It was when there was a childgoing through a lot and they had
the opportunity to just sitwith someone and play Uno,
right?
it was, such a small momentthat it was like a bit of normal
in life and you could see themsmile and actually having a kid
experience.
I realized then I sort ofactually pivoted away from
(03:38):
psychology.
And ended up back there withoutreally meaning to, but I went
and did a Master's of PlayTherapy instead of a Master's of
Psychology.
I'm so glad I did because playtherapy is very trauma informed
and it's very much about, ratherthan like teaching a lot of
psychological strategies orthings, it's really meeting a
(04:00):
child where they're at.
But using play games, toys,different things to help with
communication, which when youactually stop and think about
it, makes a lot more sense thantalk based interventions because
the prefrontal cortex or thefront parts of kids' brains
aren't even developed to havethose conversations.
(04:21):
So play is actually a child'slanguage and how they understand
the world.
So it really is giving you thetools to actually connect with
them.
So you can do lots with playtherapy, but the basic gist of
it is that you are having adevelopmentally appropriate
conversation and interventionwith a child.
(04:42):
You might be helping them toprocess emotions in a way that
words just can't, 'cause theydon't have the words.
Or there's specific things Imight be doing to increase
executive functioning supportsand, and the like, or script out
different scenarios.
Not like, you know, nonaffirming social stories or
things like that, but toactually be able to demonstrate
(05:02):
something but it's usingsomething that's engaging and
often helping them make sense ofit in their own way.
Yeah, so I love it.
Leisa Reichelt (05:12):
Yeah, I feel like we could spend a full
episode just talking about playtherapy because what it makes me
think is that a lot of parentswho have got School Can't kids,
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (05:20):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (05:20):
I.
Know that they need to dothings like understand what the
stressors are, understand what'sgoing on for the kids so that
they can think about how to,step in and get accommodations
for 'em and work out what to do.
But a lot of those kids, Ithink, and certainly, it was my
experience, there's no language.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (05:39):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (05:40):
Like they can't verbally communicate what's
going on for them.
And I wonder whether playtherapy is something that could
help a lot in that sort ofsituation.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (05:48):
no, play therapy is beautiful for
that.
Yeah, children don't have thewords.
Not just because theyphysically don't know them yet,
or we ask them, you know, tellme how you're feeling and adult
struggles to answer that, or Whyaren't you going to school?
they don't know a lot of thetime but the play side, you can
see it.
you can see what they'reshowing you and what it feels
(06:11):
like.
And I guess they can just tellyou what they're feeling in ways
where words just don't reach.
So it's really powerful.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (06:19):
I think I've noticed that it is
really powerful in just simplyconnecting, sometimes in a
positive way because lots of ourkids have had really negative
experiences with connecting withadults.
Sometimes in the context ofschool or in the context of
therapy, even where they've feltthat, they've been blamed or
(06:40):
shamed or judged for the waythat they're feeling or what's
going on.
And so just simply having ashared activity, doing something
with someone that's fun or thatenables you to be in the moment
and have that kind ofconnection with somebody is so
important.
And especially if we're goingto eventually, you know, seek
more information from thatstudent, they have to feel safe
(07:01):
with you.
They have to feel connected toyou.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (07:03):
it's a non pressured way.
'cause often, you know, by thetime that a School Can't going
off, often by the time a childis coming to see you, they have
been asked so many questionsabout why they're not going to
school, what's wrong?
Like, you know, just questionafter question in your face.
So having play where it doesn'trequire verbal processing, but
(07:26):
also it's often very low demandthey do communicate and they
tell you what's going on, butnot in the first session.
I'm not gonna pretend that Iget that information within five
sessions, 10, whatever.
But we do over time.
And it does get better, becausethey've had the space to
actually express it.
Over time when they're readywith someone they trust.
(07:49):
Because ultimately I don'tdeserve to hear how a child's
feeling if I don't have theirtrust first.
And unlike adults who couldjust choose to get up and leave
a therapy space or never comeback to see me.
I have an huge, inordinateamount of power in my role.
And there's huge issues withconsent with kids because, and
(08:10):
also informed consent withfamilies who are often feeling
very pressured by an educationsystem and other dynamics as
well.
So there's, a child who'sexperiencing challenges at
school or there's School Can'tgoing on, there is a lot of
added dynamics that makes me athreatening person to them
before they've even walked inthe door.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (08:30):
Can we talk about the consent thing
a bit more, Leisa?
Leisa Reichelt (08:33):
Yeah, but before we pivot on that, I just wanna
say this makes me feel a lotbetter about the amount of time
that my son spends playingExploding Kittens with his
psychologist.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (08:43):
love
Leisa Reichelt (08:43):
I'm like, clocks ticking, clocks ticking,
money's burning, and you areplaying Exploding Kittens.
But you know, the way that youtalk about it makes it make a
lot more sense.
And, the connection that he haswith this psychologist, I think
is much better than he is everhad with any previous, because
of the time that they spend inthose kinds of ways.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (09:01):
Yeah.
Tiffany Westphal (she (09:02):
Exploding Kittens is one of my favorite
games because not only are youhaving fun and connecting, but
you're also learning about thenervous system because it's a
game where you feel that tensioninside you as you go.
Oh, is the exploding kittencoming up
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (09:15):
But thats the thing where it looks
like 'just playing' but you canuse a game like Exploding
Kittens to have a wholeconversation about emotions.
And we call it indirectteaching.
So we're teaching, but we'renot having a direct conversation
in it.
But the skills are still goingin.
So there's a lot ofmisconceptions about, oh, you
know, the therapist just sitsdown and plays and it's like,
(09:37):
you've got no idea, the mentalgymnastics I'm doing internally
right now to try and get thiseducation in.
In a way that's tolerable, thatdoesn't get you to disengage.
Because then if you've got veryfew connections, we're never
gonna get you, to where you wantto be, not to where you need to
be.
It's making sure they're okay,first and foremost.
(09:57):
So I'd rather spend anothersession.
For me, I've never usedExploiting Kittens, but I have
had a lot of games of Uno.
Leisa Reichelt (10:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Consent, What do we wanna talkabout there?
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (10:08):
I think it's such an important
topic to talk about so thatparents are aware of the issues.
Parents sometimes do thingswhere they have coerced a child
to attend an appointment orbribed them.
You know, I'll take you andwe'll do this afterwards.
You'll have this treat.
Or they'll bring another parentalong just to ensure that the
(10:31):
kid goes to the appointmentthat's not a young person that's
consenting to engagement withyou.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (10:38):
yeah.
I think what I'd say on that isthat, 'cause it's really tricky
because sometimes children arereally burnt out and don't wanna
go or they do need a push or abribe or something sometimes to
get there.
And then we've got thatquestion of, well, is that
consent or coercion?
And there's a balancing actthere because I definitely know
(11:01):
that there are some times, andwith some kids I'm working with
and some days as well withparents where they're like,
okay, we needed a bit of a bribeto, to get there today.
But once they're there, they'reenjoying it, they're engaged.
And it's not the therapy itselfor the relationship with me,
that's the barrier.
(11:21):
It might be transitioningbetween activities or some
demand avoidance that's there,but when I ask them.
Is it hard to get your childhere to see me?
'cause I wanna know about that.
Like, if you are having to, touse a bribe every single week,
that's really, really importantinformation for me to have
versus maybe something to getthem through the door the first
(11:44):
couple of times.
But if things have been goingokay and suddenly that changes,
that's a huge red flag for methat they might not be feeling
safe with me anymore.
There's other times where Iwill tend to be reasonably
flexible around somecancellation fees.
Like, there's obviously a limitaround that, and that's
different for everybody.
(12:04):
But because if a child'scompletely burnt out and then
you're having to bribe them tocome to therapy, they're
absolutely outta spoons, right?
they've just got no energyleft.
I think that's a bit of aproblem, but I find that it's
less of a problem to get kids totherapy when they know that the
(12:26):
demands are low or safe whenthey're in there.
So even on days where some kidsare really burnt out, I'm like,
well bring them in, but we canjust play cards for the session
and keep that connection going.
Or I can sit with them for anhour and reflect on how burnt
out they are and just let themflop.
Or kids will come in and dosensory play with me for an hour
(12:46):
and that's given them thechance to regulate enough to
then not go home and have amassive fight 'cause they've had
that flop time.
So I think it's a trickybalance because we know
sometimes kids need some of thatto then participate to begin
with.
But we've also, gotta look atthe line.
Well, when are we just forcingthem into something where if
(13:08):
they were an adult they'd justwalk away.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (13:10):
What you've just described there,
Anna, is attunement to what'sgoing on with the client so you
can read the signs and followtheir lead a bit And sometimes
we take our kids to seetherapists, but.
they have an agenda of, youknow, what they wanna do in that
session, And they don't readthose signs of what's the child
(13:33):
or young person got capacity fortoday, and there's no
attunement there.
And so it doesn't feel safe forthe young person.
And so I think it's importantfor, you know, parents who might
be listening to, to go wellwhen the kid starts to say, I
don't like going.
And this, we can come round totalking about neurodiversity
affirming practice as well here,because this is, you know,
(13:55):
that's another red flag thatkids go, I don't feel accepted
here.
I don't feel safe here.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (13:59):
I work with parents I really feel
for them because in certainsituations with what they've
been told with professionals,because they are being almost
gaslit to stop attuning to whattheir child is telling them.
Because it's like, well, no,we've gotta take them to the
expert and get this done.
But you can see that then theparent, that attachment with the
(14:20):
child's almost being rupturedbecause the parent's caught
between those two systems.
It's Its really, really sad.
Leisa Reichelt (14:29):
even when you have great professionals that
you're working with though.
I can tell you two very recentexamples for me with my son.
Last week, the worst part ofour week was the day that he had
to go to see his psychiatrist.
Great psychiatrist, lovely guy.
Neither of us have got an issuewith him.
He just goes in, has a chat,gets his medication and off he
goes.
(14:49):
It's all fine.
But on this particular morning,I was like, okay, we've gotta
go have our meeting with thedoctor.
He's like, okay.
And then half an hour before wehad to go, he's like, no, I'm
not feeling it.
I can't do it.
And it turned into a big thing.
350 bucks this guy cost me.
And like, when, when am I gonnaget another appointment with
him?
'cause he's busy.
(15:10):
I've no idea.
and you need to get yourprescription and all of these
things.
I'm like, how to handle that?
it's very stressful.
And so for me, I have to find away to get in there and there
is a rupture in the parent childconnection because I think,
I'll make it as easy aspossible.
I'm not gonna force you to go.
We've been there before andI've said to him, if you wanna
sit out in the waiting room thewhole time, you can do that.
(15:31):
You don't have to talk to himif you don't wanna talk to him.
But we do have to go.
It's difficult.
And then with his psychologist,they have a great relationship.
But some days.
He just really doesn't have thespoons to be able to go.
occasionally I'm just like,fine, I'll go and talk to his
psychologist because, I spend alot of time with my son.
I've got a fairly good idea ofsome good hypotheses of what's
(15:53):
going on we can compare notes alittle bit and that can be
really helpful.
But it is hard when you'relike, that's hundreds of
dollars,
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (16:00):
You can feel under pressure can't
you And And not just that, youknow, there's wait lists.
So if it seems to be goingsouth, you've gotta get on a
wait list for somebody else andthat takes time and you can be
without support for long periods
Leisa Reichelt (16:11):
and they often don't give us a lot of notice.
The kids often don't give you24 or 40 hours Like notice you,
you get like half an hournotice,
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (16:20):
I will say from that
professional's perspective aswell, because I think we need to
have these open ongoingconversations with each other.
things can get very...
they're just really complex andthere's certain places I work
at that have a strictcancellation policy.
And then there's others, likewhen I'm working for myself more
because I'm a neurodivergentclinician and I do have to take
(16:41):
some mental health days I'm alittle bit more flexible 'cause
I believe that's give and takeBut if there are people who are
repeatedly canceling.
What I will do is send a parentemail, have a phone call,
trying to do something where, westill need to be paid for our
time because, you know, there'smore overheads than people would
ever really expect that we dohave.
(17:01):
But I do think that, part ofthat neurodiversity affirming
approach is needing to go, well,I'm being paid for this hour,
so what am I gonna do that'sstill benefiting that family in
some way.
I think they're theconversations that we need to
have and that can balance bothparties out.
Leisa Reichelt (17:20):
One of the other challenges that, that parents
have, I think, is we hear thisterm neuro affirming and we
believe that it's importantbecause like lots of us have got
a neurodiverse kids.
Anna, what does neuroaffirmingactually mean?
What does it look like when wesee it in the world?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (17:40):
I think it's a really important
conversation becauseneurodiversity affirming best
practice standards are nowgetting into our clinical
guidelines everywhere, which isfantastic.
It's what we've wanted.
In my mind and other people canagree or disagree, but what
defines being affirming in mymind is the intention behind
(18:01):
what we we're doing.
So we know that there are a lotof people who you know, will
speak about different therapyformats and let's say, you know,
behaviorist therapies ordifferent interventions like
that and say, you know, they,they're non affirming.
I think one of the things it'sgoing like, what is the
intention that we're trying todo with something?
(18:23):
Are we trying to change abehavior or put an intervention
in place because we're trying tofix something that we're seeing
is wrong or in need of curing.
Or are we trying to support aneed and put a support need in
place, or, you know, build askill because that is something
(18:44):
that is in the best interest ofthat person and it's coming from
that strengths-based lens, nota, we need to get the person
with a disability or adifference to adhere to some
social standard.
And so where I think there's alittle bit of a nuance within
that is that there are some,I'll use play therapy as an
(19:05):
example.
So there's been someinteresting debates with how
affirming a particular type ortypes of play therapy are, and
one of them is where I willactually teach some pretend play
intervention to children.
And I love this intervention.
And there's been criticismsthat it's not affirming because
(19:26):
it's like, well, you're justtrying to teach like an autistic
kid to pretend play.
What I would say to that is, ifthe child has no interest in
that, I'm not gonna force themto do it.
However, there's other timeswhere that child, once they
understand what the pretend playis.
So to, to use a concreteexample, okay, everyone in the
playground is playing like thefloor is lava, okay?
(19:48):
And everyone's running aroundhaving fun, and this autistic
child is not seeing the samething.
It's like the floor isconcrete, not lava.
But in a therapy session, onceI've actually broken down what's
going on in their peer's head,then they can keep up and they
actually do want to play it.
So you see how there I'm notteaching it because like that
(20:09):
kid's way of playing is wrong,but it's because, oh, once I
actually knew what washappening, I want to do it.
At the same time, aneurodiversity affirming
perspective is making sure thatteachers and the other kids
know, Hey, there's nothing wrongwith the fact that he still
thinks the floor is concrete.
You are both seeing itdifferently and both of you need
(20:30):
to adapt.
But the problem doesn't justexist within him.
If he's doing or leading theplay a certain way, that's
probably 'cause he doesn'tunderstand, not 'cause he's
being rude.
I know that's kind of like a, avery neurodivergent type,
tangential answer there, but I,I like to illustrate it with a
few examples like that too.
(20:51):
It's gotta come back to the whywe are doing something and make
sure that the responsibility isput as just as much on
environmental adaptations asindividual change within the
person.
Leisa Reichelt (21:02):
This might sound like a dumb question.
Maybe it is a dumb question.
Is there an expectation thatbefore you become neuro
affirming, you actually becomelike properly neuro aware or
something like that?
I mean, part the experiencethat I've had, and I'm sure many
other parents have had as well,is the ongoing search to try to
(21:23):
find therapists who actuallyreally properly understand our
neurodiverse kids.
We went through a parade ofpsychologists who claimed that
they were experts in autism, whopretty clearly to me now in
retrospect, maybe didn't havethe level of expertise that I
would've anticipated themhaving, but I, I assume that's
(21:46):
an obvious question.
Like you have to know what itis in order to affirm it.
Right.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (21:50):
what I, what I wanna do here and I
guess I'm gonna, the way I amgonna frame this is 'cause
there's a lot of frustration,burnout, anger, like across the
board around coming to a serviceand then people saying they're
affirming and they're not, andfrankly they need to be.
I'm with you.
What I wanna explain though, isa little bit about the
professional context that we'rein in Australia, because I think
(22:14):
when we understand whysomething's happening, that can
help us be a little bit moresavvy with knowing where to go
and what to do.
So I'm doing my PhD in thisarea about neurodiversity
affirming practice., What Iwould say is going on is we have
what's called a research topractice gap.
So what that means is that allof the research about autism and
(22:35):
ADHD and neurodiversity is thefastest moving rate in
psychology of any area.
So the literature, thelandscape about autism and ADHD
has changed so much in the lastfive years that even as someone
researching it, every time I sitdown to start a new paper, I
almost burst into tears becausethere is too much to catch up
(22:57):
with.
So what was taught in ouruniversities about autism and
ADHD is not just five yearsoutdated, it's 20 years
outdated.
Like it's still, what we wentand paid for in our fancy
degrees it's not anywhere nearthe best practice standards.
I've just been at a conferenceover the weekend where I have
(23:18):
stepped out of my neurodiversityaffirming bubble into a
training space withprofessionals not trained in
this space.
And I feel like I've gotwhiplash and I'm just like, is
this still how far behind weare?
Because what you have to do isthen rely on the fact that the
professional you are seeing hasactually then done continuous
(23:38):
professional development.
And if it's professionaldevelopment about autism and
ADHD, you've gotta be doing itpretty constantly at the moment
because it is moving so quickly.
So my learning curve aboutautism and ADHD has been over
the past three years, and it'sbasically the equivalent of
another degree of learning to goand unlearn all of the internal
(24:02):
biases and everything that Iknew that my degree taught me in
the first place.
I have the advantage in that Ihave the lived experience of it
and I also know the pain and theconsequence of being the
recipient of care from atherapist who doesn't get it.
But we're in this really weirdspace where everything that
everyone was taught at uni waswrong.
(24:25):
So now you've gotta stumbleacross this new professional
development.
And it's not a one-offtraining.
This isn't a, I'm gonna golearn a little bit extra about
depression.
This is, I have to commit toundoing every bias I learned.
So that's the dilemma thatwe've got with that research to
practice gap is that peopleactually, I think, think they're
(24:46):
being affirming, but they'renot.
Leisa Reichelt (24:49):
Yeah, that makes lots of sense.
A lot of parents I think, cometo try to seek help in sort of
moments of crisis, right?
Like things are going reallybadly and they desperately need
somebody to help.
And the yes, they're probablygonna have to wait for ages,
need to get, get on a waitinglist that's actually open.
And so, you know, you might beinclined to sort of go with
(25:09):
whoever can see me rather thanfinding the best possible fit
early on.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (25:14):
I think you've named the problem
well of like, is somethingbetter than nothing?
You know, should we get in and,and get them to see someone?
I think it depends to be, I'llbe pretty honest and upfront
about that because with very nonaffirming approaches, I think
they can actually be damaging.
And I'll name that like rightup front, that the level of
(25:37):
shaming and that that can go onIf it's like, okay, we're gonna
get you back to school at anyand all costs, regardless of
what's actually going on withyour mental health versus if
there's someone perhaps who'strying but doesn't quite get it,
but there's still value incomponents of what they're
teaching.
I think that's still really,really massively helpful.
(25:58):
What I guess I would encouragewith parents though, is make
sure that parents have access toeducation and, and peer
networks as well, so that theycan talk and fact check around
this person's giving me this bitof advice or treating my kid
this way.
What's the go?
Because It actually might bethe parent that's ending up,
(26:19):
fielding their kid from some ofthe non-affirmative content or
actually advocating for theirkid and setting that boundary
which you shouldn't have to do.
Like, that's so much extra loadto put on you.
We should be doing better as anindustry completely.
But being able to say, I amokay if we go slower with my
kid.
I would rather that than, thanpush through or, you know what,
(26:40):
I don't even want us to talkabout school at the moment.
Let's just focus on someanxiety techniques or whatever
it is.
I think that there's ways thatparents can use what they know
and what feels right in theirgut with their knowledge about
neurodiversity to protect theirkid in that space a little bit.
I wanna make sure that parentscan feel more confident in
(27:04):
going, this doesn't feel rightfor me.
You know, this person doesn'tfeel right for my kid.
But having, I guess, a littlebit more confidence in knowing
what to look for so that theycan protect their family within
that.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (27:16):
I can remember my own daughter, I
took her to a psychologist.
She'd seen a number ofpsychologists over the years.
But you know, at one point shesaid to me, mum, psychology is
making me feel worse.
I'm not feeling better.
This is adding to my sense ofI'm just not okay, or I'm not a
good person, or I need to bedifferent, or I need to be less
this or more that.
(27:37):
And there's layers of shamethat our kids carry and there's
this trust that parents havethat they're paying a lot of
money to see someone and they'reexpecting it's going to be
safe.
And so having the courage as aparent, you're being called on
to make a decision about whethersomething's helpful or harmful
(27:58):
when you don't necessarily feellike you've got the professional
background to make thatdecision.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (28:03):
Yeah, totally.
And you should be able to trustus as health professionals
because we should be worthy oftrust.
You should be able to take yourchild to a psychologist and
know they're gonna be helped tonot harmed.
So I guess in answer to yourquestion about what are some of
the things that are nonaffirming, I think it's when
(28:24):
questioning kids about what'sgoing on, where it makes it like
the child's just choosing tonot go to school or choosing to
do something.
That it's a choice and thatthey just need to try harder.
So that's the immediate redflag for me.
There is any approach wherewe're going, it's a lack of
(28:44):
discipline, it's laziness.
okay, there is a non affirmingapproach right there.
I think, you know, when we'retalking about the consequences
of that, it's the, the shamingbecause as well, like as a kid
with less life experience andthe power dynamics of being
taught to obey and follow andbelieve adults, what you
(29:05):
internalize then is like, I'mthe problem.
I'm the failure.
And that's what I do traumatherapy on with adults who were
told all of those messages.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her (29:14):
Yeah, and I think even more than
that, you know, the stresses andbarriers get ignored, so they
never get identified.
Because the difficulty ispositioned as being within the
child rather than a difficultythey're having in their
environment.
And so no, no support is thenprovided.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (29:30):
And one of the things that I have
issues with, is that we knowthat when we are repeatedly
stomping over someone andthey're saying like, I don't
like this.
We teach them to not be attunedwith their gut sense anymore.
And I think that's a reallydangerous consequence of all of
this too, of you'reoverreacting.
It's really dangerous.
(29:51):
And that's a whole differenttopic.
But that's another reason whyI'm so passionate about this and
the informed consent levels isbecause we need to model going
with your gut sense andsomething doesn't feel safe or
okay.
Rather than that being flippedonto, oh, you are the one with
the problem.
I guess to give an example ofthat, there've been times I've
(30:11):
worked with kids who are tellingme about things at school.
And you know, they're reallyangry that a teacher or
someone's not listening to whatthey're saying.
And I'm like, that tracks,there's nothing actually I can
say that to make you not angryat that.
'cause that's a reallyappropriate response.
To be angry that someone saidthat to you.
If I was to just go, oh no, youneed to get over that, or you
(30:33):
still actually need to go backinto that environment, what am I
actually teaching a kid?
how's that gonna set them upfor life with, with their safety
and other environments andcontexts?
It's just dangerous.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her (30:45):
Yeah, is dangerous.
And I think also it's when ourkids are positioned as being the
problem or the problem iswithin them too, they
internalise all this negativestuff about themselves which
takes the further toll on theirmental health and their
wellbeing.
And it deepens disconnectionand they lose hope.
(31:07):
And they can, they lose trustin, in adults.
And I think that's the worstthing is, you know, when they,
they just have lost trust thatadults can help them at all.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (31:17):
And that is probably out of
anything that I try and pass onthe evidence base and all that
shows us that it's theprotective factors that save
people's lives.
So when there's adversechildhood experiences they've
put out all of these studies andthis research about what
happens when children experiencehorrible things and all the
negative outcomes.
But then there were theseingenious people who were like,
(31:40):
well, how can two people havethe exact same story of bad
things that one has done well?
And there's a correlation andresearch pattern there with the
protective factors.
So, and those protectivefactors, it's called the
benevolent childhoodexperiences.
The 10 of these protectivefactors is, did you have a
secure relationship with atleast one parent, with one adult
(32:03):
you trusted?
Beliefs that gave you somelevel of comfort, opportunities
to be yourself.
And for every score on thatbenevolent childhood
experiences, the more yournumber of that increases, the
more that that can mitigate thenegative impacts of the other.
So beyond anything else, Idon't care if the kids going
(32:23):
back to school tomorrow, I careif they don't have a single
adult that they trust becausethat is the bigger risk of a
negative long-term outcome thanschool.
Leisa Reichelt (32:34):
As a parent too, prioritizing your connection
with the child becomes then a, amassive thing for us to think
about, right?
Our, our connection, ourtrusting connection with our
child is more important thanmaking sure they get to school
the next day.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (32:50):
For those who want the stats and
the research focus about it, thestatistics about like, kids not
going to school or the outcomesthere.
But we also then need tocompare that to the statistics
of kids who have attachmentruptures and no healthy
relationships like that actuallyoutweighs the poor educational
outcomes.
But that's not talked about.,people deflect, by going, oh,
(33:12):
it's just people beingsnowflakes about their emotions
and all of that.
It's like, no, it's actuallybacked up by evidence.
It's a, it's a thing.
Leisa Reichelt (33:20):
Anna what kind of guidance can you give parents
who are out there looking forneuro affirming practitioners?
Be they psychologists or speechtherapists or, you know,
whatever, whatever it could be.
How can we try to pick somebodywho is neuro affirming without
having to wait on the waitinglist, do eight sessions,
(33:40):
discover that they're not whatyou hope that they might be.
Is there a, a process that wecan do that can shortcut that so
we are more likely to land withgreat people?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (33:49):
I can give you some questions to
ask in general for people.
So I think that key componentof what training have you done
in the last 12 months.
I do not care if you weretrained as an autism expert 10
years ago, that means absolutelynothing.
'cause it's moving too quicklyand I'm reading it every single
day.
So I think that's a keyquestion.
I think asking about theclinician's perspective about
(34:16):
what the goals are when you havetold them a little bit of
information about things, youcan sort of see where are they
prioritizing their approach.
Like is it on, we're gettingthe kid back to school tomorrow
and that's the goal, or is itwe're keeping them safe and
alive and preserving theirmental health, like seeing where
someone immediately prioritizesthe attention and focus.
(34:39):
I think that I would also saythat if, if people are truly
neurodiversity affirming, theyalso need to be trauma informed
and vice versa.
So I dunno if that helps orgives me,
Leisa Reichelt (34:49):
And do you think that
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (34:50):
but yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (34:51):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I, I, it wouldnever have occurred to me to ask
a speech pathologist, or apsychologist or anybody like
that to tell me about thetraining that they've done in
the last 12 months.
Do they actually answer thatquestion?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futur (35:03):
We should.
I think people have a right toknow.
I have a care team of sixpeople for myself.
Like I still have very, veryhigh support needs.
I might not look like it.
and I am picky and selective tosay the least.
For me, I would say there arepeople on my team where my
knowledge about neurodiversity,far outstrips theirs, but
(35:24):
they're where I need them to bewith their trauma informed
practice or vice versa.
So it's like between differentmembers of my team, I get
elements of what I need.
'cause it is really hard tofind one person who specializes
in everything.
So that's where I do think thathaving, especially, you know,
when we're talking about OTs,speechy, psychs, like having
(35:44):
little bits from everybody, Ithink is a much better approach
than having just the one person.
And I know that that's hard,but sometimes having a block of
OT sessions, a block of speech,a block of psychology rather
than three sessions in a week,gives you a diverse perspective
with different people who canoffer you different bits and
pieces.
I think that's something tothink about as well, because
(36:08):
even, someone like me, veryknowledgeable in this space as
well.
I find it really challenging tofind people.
Leisa Reichelt (36:15):
I wonder if we have parents who are working
with health professionals,allied health schools, where
they have people who areinterested in learning more
about being neuro affirming.
can you make somerecommendations as to like what
parents could helpfully put infront of those people if they
were willing to, take it on?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (36:37):
Well yeah, on our website, so that's
divergent futures.
We do have resources that we'vemade.
One of the ones we've maderecently is how to be a good
neurodiversity affirming ally.
So that's probably one thatcould be given directly to
schools and teachers and thelike.
So my colleague Monique madethat one, which is really great.
And then we also do haveinformation on there with
(37:00):
general directories and thingsabout where to go as well.
Leisa Reichelt (37:04):
That sounds very, very helpful.
Thank you so much, Anna.
It's been just wonderful havingthis conversation with you
today.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (37:11):
No, thank you for all the work
you're doing in this space aswell.
It's really important.
Leisa Reichelt (37:15):
Well, I hope you found that journey through
neuro affirming care helpful.
It's definitely interesting tounderstand the extreme change of
pace that the psychologyprofession is having to deal
with as they seek to understandneurodivergence better.
It can be hard to find goodsupport for our young people and
for ourselves, and hopefullythis gives you a little bit more
confidence about what to lookfor and what you're entitled to
(37:36):
expect, as well as how we canhelp keep our young people safe.
If you have some other topicsthat you'd like us to cover, or
if you have a School Can't livedexperience you'd be willing to
share, please email us atschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
We would very much like to hearfrom you.
I'm gonna put the links toDivergent Futures website, as
well as the guide to being aneuro affirming ally that Anna
(37:59):
mentioned into the episodenotes.
I've also put a link to theSchool Can't Australia website
and a link to donate to SchoolCan't Australia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
like webinars, and this podcast,which all assist people who are
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
(38:20):
Can't.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the parent helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you for listening, and wewill talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person whois struggling to attend school
can be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more of us
around the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:27):
day.
Today I'm joined by TiffanyWestphal from School Can't
Australia, as well as AnnaClarke.
Anna is a psychologist and playtherapist, as well as a
professional educator on neuroaffirming care at her company
called Divergent Futures.
In this episode, we unpack whatneurodivergent affirming care
looks like and why it's socritical for our neurodivergent
(00:50):
young people.
Anna also gives us a bit of asneak peek behind the
professional curtain as to whyneuro affirming care can be so
difficult to find and someadvice on how parents and carers
can be more confident inadvocating for the right level
of care for our kids.
Let's do it.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
What's your background story,Anna?
(01:11):
What do we need to know aboutyou?
What's brought you to where youare today?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (01:15):
Okay, so yeah, I'm Anna.
I'm autistic and ADHD.
I'm a psychologist and a playtherapist and a mental health
advocate in general, I'm a latediagnosed neurodivergent person,
I had initially started mycareer more in the social
workspace, doing a lot of workwith children and young people
(01:36):
in out-of-home care, fostercare, involved with child
protection services, that kindof thing.
And then, as I started studyingpsychology later on, that's
when I walked into a new clinicwhere I had a placement and
everyone looked at me and toldme I needed to go get diagnosed
as being autistic and ADHD'cause it was a clinic that was
(01:59):
very much focussed onneurodiversity affirming
practice.
I sought my own diagnosis,which confirmed it pretty
quickly.
So when I got the diagnosis,everything suddenly started
falling into place to help memake a bit more sense of my
life.
That sort of inspired me and Iwas fortunate enough to
collaborate with a colleaguecalled Monique Mitchelson, to
(02:23):
create a company calledDivergent Futures, which focuses
on education and training aboutneurodiversity.
So we really are trying toshare those messages about
affirming practice so that, Iguess things are caught a lot
earlier for others, and we canget all of that good information
out there now.
Leisa Reichelt (02:42):
Fantastic.
I wanna do a little teeny tinydiversion, if you don't mind.
Play therapist.
Can you talk a little bit aboutplay therapy and what a play
therapist does?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (02:52):
So, like I said, I had a background
working in social work before Iwent and finished my psychology
training.
And when I was a social worker,working specifically in out of
home care, I realized that Ifelt like the days where I was
actually doing somethingbeneficial was where I was kind
of sitting and playing withkids, living in foster care or
(03:15):
residential care.
It wasn't these big, deep andmeaningful conversations or
anything.
It was when there was a childgoing through a lot and they had
the opportunity to just sitwith someone and play Uno,
right?
it was, such a small momentthat it was like a bit of normal
in life and you could see themsmile and actually having a kid
experience.
I realized then I sort ofactually pivoted away from
(03:38):
psychology.
And ended up back there withoutreally meaning to, but I went
and did a Master's of PlayTherapy instead of a Master's of
Psychology.
I'm so glad I did because playtherapy is very trauma informed
and it's very much about, ratherthan like teaching a lot of
psychological strategies orthings, it's really meeting a
(04:00):
child where they're at.
But using play games, toys,different things to help with
communication, which when youactually stop and think about
it, makes a lot more sense thantalk based interventions because
the prefrontal cortex or thefront parts of kids' brains
aren't even developed to havethose conversations.
(04:21):
So play is actually a child'slanguage and how they understand
the world.
So it really is giving you thetools to actually connect with
them.
So you can do lots with playtherapy, but the basic gist of
it is that you are having adevelopmentally appropriate
conversation and interventionwith a child.
(04:42):
You might be helping them toprocess emotions in a way that
words just can't, 'cause theydon't have the words.
Or there's specific things Imight be doing to increase
executive functioning supportsand, and the like, or script out
different scenarios.
Not like, you know, nonaffirming social stories or
things like that, but toactually be able to demonstrate
(05:02):
something but it's usingsomething that's engaging and
often helping them make sense ofit in their own way.
Yeah, so I love it.
Leisa Reichelt (05:12):
Yeah, I feel like we could spend a full
episode just talking about playtherapy because what it makes me
think is that a lot of parentswho have got School Can't kids,
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (05:20):
Hmm.
Leisa Reichelt (05:20):
I.
Know that they need to dothings like understand what the
stressors are, understand what'sgoing on for the kids so that
they can think about how to,step in and get accommodations
for 'em and work out what to do.
But a lot of those kids, Ithink, and certainly, it was my
experience, there's no language.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (05:39):
No.
Leisa Reichelt (05:40):
Like they can't verbally communicate what's
going on for them.
And I wonder whether playtherapy is something that could
help a lot in that sort ofsituation.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (05:48):
no, play therapy is beautiful for
that.
Yeah, children don't have thewords.
Not just because theyphysically don't know them yet,
or we ask them, you know, tellme how you're feeling and adult
struggles to answer that, or Whyaren't you going to school?
they don't know a lot of thetime but the play side, you can
see it.
you can see what they'reshowing you and what it feels
(06:11):
like.
And I guess they can just tellyou what they're feeling in ways
where words just don't reach.
So it's really powerful.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (06:19):
I think I've noticed that it is
really powerful in just simplyconnecting, sometimes in a
positive way because lots of ourkids have had really negative
experiences with connecting withadults.
Sometimes in the context ofschool or in the context of
therapy, even where they've feltthat, they've been blamed or
(06:40):
shamed or judged for the waythat they're feeling or what's
going on.
And so just simply having ashared activity, doing something
with someone that's fun or thatenables you to be in the moment
and have that kind ofconnection with somebody is so
important.
And especially if we're goingto eventually, you know, seek
more information from thatstudent, they have to feel safe
(07:01):
with you.
They have to feel connected toyou.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (07:03):
it's a non pressured way.
'cause often, you know, by thetime that a School Can't going
off, often by the time a childis coming to see you, they have
been asked so many questionsabout why they're not going to
school, what's wrong?
Like, you know, just questionafter question in your face.
So having play where it doesn'trequire verbal processing, but
(07:26):
also it's often very low demandthey do communicate and they
tell you what's going on, butnot in the first session.
I'm not gonna pretend that Iget that information within five
sessions, 10, whatever.
But we do over time.
And it does get better, becausethey've had the space to
actually express it.
Over time when they're readywith someone they trust.
(07:49):
Because ultimately I don'tdeserve to hear how a child's
feeling if I don't have theirtrust first.
And unlike adults who couldjust choose to get up and leave
a therapy space or never comeback to see me.
I have an huge, inordinateamount of power in my role.
And there's huge issues withconsent with kids because, and
(08:10):
also informed consent withfamilies who are often feeling
very pressured by an educationsystem and other dynamics as
well.
So there's, a child who'sexperiencing challenges at
school or there's School Can'tgoing on, there is a lot of
added dynamics that makes me athreatening person to them
before they've even walked inthe door.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (08:30):
Can we talk about the consent thing
a bit more, Leisa?
Leisa Reichelt (08:33):
Yeah, but before we pivot on that, I just wanna
say this makes me feel a lotbetter about the amount of time
that my son spends playingExploding Kittens with his
psychologist.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (08:43):
love
Leisa Reichelt (08:43):
I'm like, clocks ticking, clocks ticking,
money's burning, and you areplaying Exploding Kittens.
But you know, the way that youtalk about it makes it make a
lot more sense.
And, the connection that he haswith this psychologist, I think
is much better than he is everhad with any previous, because
of the time that they spend inthose kinds of ways.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (09:01):
Yeah.
Tiffany Westphal (she (09:02):
Exploding Kittens is one of my favorite
games because not only are youhaving fun and connecting, but
you're also learning about thenervous system because it's a
game where you feel that tensioninside you as you go.
Oh, is the exploding kittencoming up
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (09:15):
But thats the thing where it looks
like 'just playing' but you canuse a game like Exploding
Kittens to have a wholeconversation about emotions.
And we call it indirectteaching.
So we're teaching, but we'renot having a direct conversation
in it.
But the skills are still goingin.
So there's a lot ofmisconceptions about, oh, you
know, the therapist just sitsdown and plays and it's like,
(09:37):
you've got no idea, the mentalgymnastics I'm doing internally
right now to try and get thiseducation in.
In a way that's tolerable, thatdoesn't get you to disengage.
Because then if you've got veryfew connections, we're never
gonna get you, to where you wantto be, not to where you need to
be.
It's making sure they're okay,first and foremost.
(09:57):
So I'd rather spend anothersession.
For me, I've never usedExploiting Kittens, but I have
had a lot of games of Uno.
Leisa Reichelt (10:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Consent, What do we wanna talkabout there?
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (10:08):
I think it's such an important
topic to talk about so thatparents are aware of the issues.
Parents sometimes do thingswhere they have coerced a child
to attend an appointment orbribed them.
You know, I'll take you andwe'll do this afterwards.
You'll have this treat.
Or they'll bring another parentalong just to ensure that the
(10:31):
kid goes to the appointmentthat's not a young person that's
consenting to engagement withyou.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (10:38):
yeah.
I think what I'd say on that isthat, 'cause it's really tricky
because sometimes children arereally burnt out and don't wanna
go or they do need a push or abribe or something sometimes to
get there.
And then we've got thatquestion of, well, is that
consent or coercion?
And there's a balancing actthere because I definitely know
(11:01):
that there are some times, andwith some kids I'm working with
and some days as well withparents where they're like,
okay, we needed a bit of a bribeto, to get there today.
But once they're there, they'reenjoying it, they're engaged.
And it's not the therapy itselfor the relationship with me,
that's the barrier.
(11:21):
It might be transitioningbetween activities or some
demand avoidance that's there,but when I ask them.
Is it hard to get your childhere to see me?
'cause I wanna know about that.
Like, if you are having to, touse a bribe every single week,
that's really, really importantinformation for me to have
versus maybe something to getthem through the door the first
(11:44):
couple of times.
But if things have been goingokay and suddenly that changes,
that's a huge red flag for methat they might not be feeling
safe with me anymore.
There's other times where Iwill tend to be reasonably
flexible around somecancellation fees.
Like, there's obviously a limitaround that, and that's
different for everybody.
(12:04):
But because if a child'scompletely burnt out and then
you're having to bribe them tocome to therapy, they're
absolutely outta spoons, right?
they've just got no energyleft.
I think that's a bit of aproblem, but I find that it's
less of a problem to get kids totherapy when they know that the
(12:26):
demands are low or safe whenthey're in there.
So even on days where some kidsare really burnt out, I'm like,
well bring them in, but we canjust play cards for the session
and keep that connection going.
Or I can sit with them for anhour and reflect on how burnt
out they are and just let themflop.
Or kids will come in and dosensory play with me for an hour
(12:46):
and that's given them thechance to regulate enough to
then not go home and have amassive fight 'cause they've had
that flop time.
So I think it's a trickybalance because we know
sometimes kids need some of thatto then participate to begin
with.
But we've also, gotta look atthe line.
Well, when are we just forcingthem into something where if
(13:08):
they were an adult they'd justwalk away.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (13:10):
What you've just described there,
Anna, is attunement to what'sgoing on with the client so you
can read the signs and followtheir lead a bit And sometimes
we take our kids to seetherapists, but.
they have an agenda of, youknow, what they wanna do in that
session, And they don't readthose signs of what's the child
(13:33):
or young person got capacity fortoday, and there's no
attunement there.
And so it doesn't feel safe forthe young person.
And so I think it's importantfor, you know, parents who might
be listening to, to go wellwhen the kid starts to say, I
don't like going.
And this, we can come round totalking about neurodiversity
affirming practice as well here,because this is, you know,
(13:55):
that's another red flag thatkids go, I don't feel accepted
here.
I don't feel safe here.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (13:59):
I work with parents I really feel
for them because in certainsituations with what they've
been told with professionals,because they are being almost
gaslit to stop attuning to whattheir child is telling them.
Because it's like, well, no,we've gotta take them to the
expert and get this done.
But you can see that then theparent, that attachment with the
(14:20):
child's almost being rupturedbecause the parent's caught
between those two systems.
It's Its really, really sad.
Leisa Reichelt (14:29):
even when you have great professionals that
you're working with though.
I can tell you two very recentexamples for me with my son.
Last week, the worst part ofour week was the day that he had
to go to see his psychiatrist.
Great psychiatrist, lovely guy.
Neither of us have got an issuewith him.
He just goes in, has a chat,gets his medication and off he
goes.
(14:49):
It's all fine.
But on this particular morning,I was like, okay, we've gotta
go have our meeting with thedoctor.
He's like, okay.
And then half an hour before wehad to go, he's like, no, I'm
not feeling it.
I can't do it.
And it turned into a big thing.
350 bucks this guy cost me.
And like, when, when am I gonnaget another appointment with
him?
'cause he's busy.
(15:10):
I've no idea.
and you need to get yourprescription and all of these
things.
I'm like, how to handle that?
it's very stressful.
And so for me, I have to find away to get in there and there
is a rupture in the parent childconnection because I think,
I'll make it as easy aspossible.
I'm not gonna force you to go.
We've been there before andI've said to him, if you wanna
sit out in the waiting room thewhole time, you can do that.
(15:31):
You don't have to talk to himif you don't wanna talk to him.
But we do have to go.
It's difficult.
And then with his psychologist,they have a great relationship.
But some days.
He just really doesn't have thespoons to be able to go.
occasionally I'm just like,fine, I'll go and talk to his
psychologist because, I spend alot of time with my son.
I've got a fairly good idea ofsome good hypotheses of what's
(15:53):
going on we can compare notes alittle bit and that can be
really helpful.
But it is hard when you'relike, that's hundreds of
dollars,
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (16:00):
You can feel under pressure can't
you And And not just that, youknow, there's wait lists.
So if it seems to be goingsouth, you've gotta get on a
wait list for somebody else andthat takes time and you can be
without support for long periods
Leisa Reichelt (16:11):
and they often don't give us a lot of notice.
The kids often don't give you24 or 40 hours Like notice you,
you get like half an hournotice,
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (16:20):
I will say from that
professional's perspective aswell, because I think we need to
have these open ongoingconversations with each other.
things can get very...
they're just really complex andthere's certain places I work
at that have a strictcancellation policy.
And then there's others, likewhen I'm working for myself more
because I'm a neurodivergentclinician and I do have to take
(16:41):
some mental health days I'm alittle bit more flexible 'cause
I believe that's give and takeBut if there are people who are
repeatedly canceling.
What I will do is send a parentemail, have a phone call,
trying to do something where, westill need to be paid for our
time because, you know, there'smore overheads than people would
ever really expect that we dohave.
(17:01):
But I do think that, part ofthat neurodiversity affirming
approach is needing to go, well,I'm being paid for this hour,
so what am I gonna do that'sstill benefiting that family in
some way.
I think they're theconversations that we need to
have and that can balance bothparties out.
Leisa Reichelt (17:20):
One of the other challenges that, that parents
have, I think, is we hear thisterm neuro affirming and we
believe that it's importantbecause like lots of us have got
a neurodiverse kids.
Anna, what does neuroaffirmingactually mean?
What does it look like when wesee it in the world?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (17:40):
I think it's a really important
conversation becauseneurodiversity affirming best
practice standards are nowgetting into our clinical
guidelines everywhere, which isfantastic.
It's what we've wanted.
In my mind and other people canagree or disagree, but what
defines being affirming in mymind is the intention behind
(18:01):
what we we're doing.
So we know that there are a lotof people who you know, will
speak about different therapyformats and let's say, you know,
behaviorist therapies ordifferent interventions like
that and say, you know, they,they're non affirming.
I think one of the things it'sgoing like, what is the
intention that we're trying todo with something?
(18:23):
Are we trying to change abehavior or put an intervention
in place because we're trying tofix something that we're seeing
is wrong or in need of curing.
Or are we trying to support aneed and put a support need in
place, or, you know, build askill because that is something
(18:44):
that is in the best interest ofthat person and it's coming from
that strengths-based lens, nota, we need to get the person
with a disability or adifference to adhere to some
social standard.
And so where I think there's alittle bit of a nuance within
that is that there are some,I'll use play therapy as an
(19:05):
example.
So there's been someinteresting debates with how
affirming a particular type ortypes of play therapy are, and
one of them is where I willactually teach some pretend play
intervention to children.
And I love this intervention.
And there's been criticismsthat it's not affirming because
(19:26):
it's like, well, you're justtrying to teach like an autistic
kid to pretend play.
What I would say to that is, ifthe child has no interest in
that, I'm not gonna force themto do it.
However, there's other timeswhere that child, once they
understand what the pretend playis.
So to, to use a concreteexample, okay, everyone in the
playground is playing like thefloor is lava, okay?
(19:48):
And everyone's running aroundhaving fun, and this autistic
child is not seeing the samething.
It's like the floor isconcrete, not lava.
But in a therapy session, onceI've actually broken down what's
going on in their peer's head,then they can keep up and they
actually do want to play it.
So you see how there I'm notteaching it because like that
(20:09):
kid's way of playing is wrong,but it's because, oh, once I
actually knew what washappening, I want to do it.
At the same time, aneurodiversity affirming
perspective is making sure thatteachers and the other kids
know, Hey, there's nothing wrongwith the fact that he still
thinks the floor is concrete.
You are both seeing itdifferently and both of you need
(20:30):
to adapt.
But the problem doesn't justexist within him.
If he's doing or leading theplay a certain way, that's
probably 'cause he doesn'tunderstand, not 'cause he's
being rude.
I know that's kind of like a, avery neurodivergent type,
tangential answer there, but I,I like to illustrate it with a
few examples like that too.
(20:51):
It's gotta come back to the whywe are doing something and make
sure that the responsibility isput as just as much on
environmental adaptations asindividual change within the
person.
Leisa Reichelt (21:02):
This might sound like a dumb question.
Maybe it is a dumb question.
Is there an expectation thatbefore you become neuro
affirming, you actually becomelike properly neuro aware or
something like that?
I mean, part the experiencethat I've had, and I'm sure many
other parents have had as well,is the ongoing search to try to
(21:23):
find therapists who actuallyreally properly understand our
neurodiverse kids.
We went through a parade ofpsychologists who claimed that
they were experts in autism, whopretty clearly to me now in
retrospect, maybe didn't havethe level of expertise that I
would've anticipated themhaving, but I, I assume that's
(21:46):
an obvious question.
Like you have to know what itis in order to affirm it.
Right.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (21:50):
what I, what I wanna do here and I
guess I'm gonna, the way I amgonna frame this is 'cause
there's a lot of frustration,burnout, anger, like across the
board around coming to a serviceand then people saying they're
affirming and they're not, andfrankly they need to be.
I'm with you.
What I wanna explain though, isa little bit about the
professional context that we'rein in Australia, because I think
(22:14):
when we understand whysomething's happening, that can
help us be a little bit moresavvy with knowing where to go
and what to do.
So I'm doing my PhD in thisarea about neurodiversity
affirming practice., What Iwould say is going on is we have
what's called a research topractice gap.
So what that means is that allof the research about autism and
(22:35):
ADHD and neurodiversity is thefastest moving rate in
psychology of any area.
So the literature, thelandscape about autism and ADHD
has changed so much in the lastfive years that even as someone
researching it, every time I sitdown to start a new paper, I
almost burst into tears becausethere is too much to catch up
(22:57):
with.
So what was taught in ouruniversities about autism and
ADHD is not just five yearsoutdated, it's 20 years
outdated.
Like it's still, what we wentand paid for in our fancy
degrees it's not anywhere nearthe best practice standards.
I've just been at a conferenceover the weekend where I have
(23:18):
stepped out of my neurodiversityaffirming bubble into a
training space withprofessionals not trained in
this space.
And I feel like I've gotwhiplash and I'm just like, is
this still how far behind weare?
Because what you have to do isthen rely on the fact that the
professional you are seeing hasactually then done continuous
(23:38):
professional development.
And if it's professionaldevelopment about autism and
ADHD, you've gotta be doing itpretty constantly at the moment
because it is moving so quickly.
So my learning curve aboutautism and ADHD has been over
the past three years, and it'sbasically the equivalent of
another degree of learning to goand unlearn all of the internal
(24:02):
biases and everything that Iknew that my degree taught me in
the first place.
I have the advantage in that Ihave the lived experience of it
and I also know the pain and theconsequence of being the
recipient of care from atherapist who doesn't get it.
But we're in this really weirdspace where everything that
everyone was taught at uni waswrong.
(24:25):
So now you've gotta stumbleacross this new professional
development.
And it's not a one-offtraining.
This isn't a, I'm gonna golearn a little bit extra about
depression.
This is, I have to commit toundoing every bias I learned.
So that's the dilemma thatwe've got with that research to
practice gap is that peopleactually, I think, think they're
(24:46):
being affirming, but they'renot.
Leisa Reichelt (24:49):
Yeah, that makes lots of sense.
A lot of parents I think, cometo try to seek help in sort of
moments of crisis, right?
Like things are going reallybadly and they desperately need
somebody to help.
And the yes, they're probablygonna have to wait for ages,
need to get, get on a waitinglist that's actually open.
And so, you know, you might beinclined to sort of go with
(25:09):
whoever can see me rather thanfinding the best possible fit
early on.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (25:14):
I think you've named the problem
well of like, is somethingbetter than nothing?
You know, should we get in and,and get them to see someone?
I think it depends to be, I'llbe pretty honest and upfront
about that because with very nonaffirming approaches, I think
they can actually be damaging.
And I'll name that like rightup front, that the level of
(25:37):
shaming and that that can go onIf it's like, okay, we're gonna
get you back to school at anyand all costs, regardless of
what's actually going on withyour mental health versus if
there's someone perhaps who'strying but doesn't quite get it,
but there's still value incomponents of what they're
teaching.
I think that's still really,really massively helpful.
(25:58):
What I guess I would encouragewith parents though, is make
sure that parents have access toeducation and, and peer
networks as well, so that theycan talk and fact check around
this person's giving me this bitof advice or treating my kid
this way.
What's the go?
Because It actually might bethe parent that's ending up,
(26:19):
fielding their kid from some ofthe non-affirmative content or
actually advocating for theirkid and setting that boundary
which you shouldn't have to do.
Like, that's so much extra loadto put on you.
We should be doing better as anindustry completely.
But being able to say, I amokay if we go slower with my
kid.
I would rather that than, thanpush through or, you know what,
(26:40):
I don't even want us to talkabout school at the moment.
Let's just focus on someanxiety techniques or whatever
it is.
I think that there's ways thatparents can use what they know
and what feels right in theirgut with their knowledge about
neurodiversity to protect theirkid in that space a little bit.
I wanna make sure that parentscan feel more confident in
(27:04):
going, this doesn't feel rightfor me.
You know, this person doesn'tfeel right for my kid.
But having, I guess, a littlebit more confidence in knowing
what to look for so that theycan protect their family within
that.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her) (27:16):
I can remember my own daughter, I
took her to a psychologist.
She'd seen a number ofpsychologists over the years.
But you know, at one point shesaid to me, mum, psychology is
making me feel worse.
I'm not feeling better.
This is adding to my sense ofI'm just not okay, or I'm not a
good person, or I need to bedifferent, or I need to be less
this or more that.
(27:37):
And there's layers of shamethat our kids carry and there's
this trust that parents havethat they're paying a lot of
money to see someone and they'reexpecting it's going to be
safe.
And so having the courage as aparent, you're being called on
to make a decision about whethersomething's helpful or harmful
(27:58):
when you don't necessarily feellike you've got the professional
background to make thatdecision.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fu (28:03):
Yeah, totally.
And you should be able to trustus as health professionals
because we should be worthy oftrust.
You should be able to take yourchild to a psychologist and
know they're gonna be helped tonot harmed.
So I guess in answer to yourquestion about what are some of
the things that are nonaffirming, I think it's when
(28:24):
questioning kids about what'sgoing on, where it makes it like
the child's just choosing tonot go to school or choosing to
do something.
That it's a choice and thatthey just need to try harder.
So that's the immediate redflag for me.
There is any approach wherewe're going, it's a lack of
(28:44):
discipline, it's laziness.
okay, there is a non affirmingapproach right there.
I think, you know, when we'retalking about the consequences
of that, it's the, the shamingbecause as well, like as a kid
with less life experience andthe power dynamics of being
taught to obey and follow andbelieve adults, what you
(29:05):
internalize then is like, I'mthe problem.
I'm the failure.
And that's what I do traumatherapy on with adults who were
told all of those messages.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her (29:14):
Yeah, and I think even more than
that, you know, the stresses andbarriers get ignored, so they
never get identified.
Because the difficulty ispositioned as being within the
child rather than a difficultythey're having in their
environment.
And so no, no support is thenprovided.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (29:30):
And one of the things that I have
issues with, is that we knowthat when we are repeatedly
stomping over someone andthey're saying like, I don't
like this.
We teach them to not be attunedwith their gut sense anymore.
And I think that's a reallydangerous consequence of all of
this too, of you'reoverreacting.
It's really dangerous.
(29:51):
And that's a whole differenttopic.
But that's another reason whyI'm so passionate about this and
the informed consent levels isbecause we need to model going
with your gut sense andsomething doesn't feel safe or
okay.
Rather than that being flippedonto, oh, you are the one with
the problem.
I guess to give an example ofthat, there've been times I've
(30:11):
worked with kids who are tellingme about things at school.
And you know, they're reallyangry that a teacher or
someone's not listening to whatthey're saying.
And I'm like, that tracks,there's nothing actually I can
say that to make you not angryat that.
'cause that's a reallyappropriate response.
To be angry that someone saidthat to you.
If I was to just go, oh no, youneed to get over that, or you
(30:33):
still actually need to go backinto that environment, what am I
actually teaching a kid?
how's that gonna set them upfor life with, with their safety
and other environments andcontexts?
It's just dangerous.
Tiffany Westphal (she/her (30:45):
Yeah, is dangerous.
And I think also it's when ourkids are positioned as being the
problem or the problem iswithin them too, they
internalise all this negativestuff about themselves which
takes the further toll on theirmental health and their
wellbeing.
And it deepens disconnectionand they lose hope.
(31:07):
And they can, they lose trustin, in adults.
And I think that's the worstthing is, you know, when they,
they just have lost trust thatadults can help them at all.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (31:17):
And that is probably out of
anything that I try and pass onthe evidence base and all that
shows us that it's theprotective factors that save
people's lives.
So when there's adversechildhood experiences they've
put out all of these studies andthis research about what
happens when children experiencehorrible things and all the
negative outcomes.
But then there were theseingenious people who were like,
(31:40):
well, how can two people havethe exact same story of bad
things that one has done well?
And there's a correlation andresearch pattern there with the
protective factors.
So, and those protectivefactors, it's called the
benevolent childhoodexperiences.
The 10 of these protectivefactors is, did you have a
secure relationship with atleast one parent, with one adult
(32:03):
you trusted?
Beliefs that gave you somelevel of comfort, opportunities
to be yourself.
And for every score on thatbenevolent childhood
experiences, the more yournumber of that increases, the
more that that can mitigate thenegative impacts of the other.
So beyond anything else, Idon't care if the kids going
(32:23):
back to school tomorrow, I careif they don't have a single
adult that they trust becausethat is the bigger risk of a
negative long-term outcome thanschool.
Leisa Reichelt (32:34):
As a parent too, prioritizing your connection
with the child becomes then a, amassive thing for us to think
about, right?
Our, our connection, ourtrusting connection with our
child is more important thanmaking sure they get to school
the next day.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (32:50):
For those who want the stats and
the research focus about it, thestatistics about like, kids not
going to school or the outcomesthere.
But we also then need tocompare that to the statistics
of kids who have attachmentruptures and no healthy
relationships like that actuallyoutweighs the poor educational
outcomes.
But that's not talked about.,people deflect, by going, oh,
(33:12):
it's just people beingsnowflakes about their emotions
and all of that.
It's like, no, it's actuallybacked up by evidence.
It's a, it's a thing.
Leisa Reichelt (33:20):
Anna what kind of guidance can you give parents
who are out there looking forneuro affirming practitioners?
Be they psychologists or speechtherapists or, you know,
whatever, whatever it could be.
How can we try to pick somebodywho is neuro affirming without
having to wait on the waitinglist, do eight sessions,
(33:40):
discover that they're not whatyou hope that they might be.
Is there a, a process that wecan do that can shortcut that so
we are more likely to land withgreat people?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Future (33:49):
I can give you some questions to
ask in general for people.
So I think that key componentof what training have you done
in the last 12 months.
I do not care if you weretrained as an autism expert 10
years ago, that means absolutelynothing.
'cause it's moving too quicklyand I'm reading it every single
day.
So I think that's a keyquestion.
I think asking about theclinician's perspective about
(34:16):
what the goals are when you havetold them a little bit of
information about things, youcan sort of see where are they
prioritizing their approach.
Like is it on, we're gettingthe kid back to school tomorrow
and that's the goal, or is itwe're keeping them safe and
alive and preserving theirmental health, like seeing where
someone immediately prioritizesthe attention and focus.
(34:39):
I think that I would also saythat if, if people are truly
neurodiversity affirming, theyalso need to be trauma informed
and vice versa.
So I dunno if that helps orgives me,
Leisa Reichelt (34:49):
And do you think that
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (34:50):
but yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (34:51):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I, I, it wouldnever have occurred to me to ask
a speech pathologist, or apsychologist or anybody like
that to tell me about thetraining that they've done in
the last 12 months.
Do they actually answer thatquestion?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futur (35:03):
We should.
I think people have a right toknow.
I have a care team of sixpeople for myself.
Like I still have very, veryhigh support needs.
I might not look like it.
and I am picky and selective tosay the least.
For me, I would say there arepeople on my team where my
knowledge about neurodiversity,far outstrips theirs, but
(35:24):
they're where I need them to bewith their trauma informed
practice or vice versa.
So it's like between differentmembers of my team, I get
elements of what I need.
'cause it is really hard tofind one person who specializes
in everything.
So that's where I do think thathaving, especially, you know,
when we're talking about OTs,speechy, psychs, like having
(35:44):
little bits from everybody, Ithink is a much better approach
than having just the one person.
And I know that that's hard,but sometimes having a block of
OT sessions, a block of speech,a block of psychology rather
than three sessions in a week,gives you a diverse perspective
with different people who canoffer you different bits and
pieces.
I think that's something tothink about as well, because
(36:08):
even, someone like me, veryknowledgeable in this space as
well.
I find it really challenging tofind people.
Leisa Reichelt (36:15):
I wonder if we have parents who are working
with health professionals,allied health schools, where
they have people who areinterested in learning more
about being neuro affirming.
can you make somerecommendations as to like what
parents could helpfully put infront of those people if they
were willing to, take it on?
Anna Clarke, Divergent Fut (36:37):
Well yeah, on our website, so that's
divergent futures.
We do have resources that we'vemade.
One of the ones we've maderecently is how to be a good
neurodiversity affirming ally.
So that's probably one thatcould be given directly to
schools and teachers and thelike.
So my colleague Monique madethat one, which is really great.
And then we also do haveinformation on there with
(37:00):
general directories and thingsabout where to go as well.
Leisa Reichelt (37:04):
That sounds very, very helpful.
Thank you so much, Anna.
It's been just wonderful havingthis conversation with you
today.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.
Anna Clarke, Divergent Futu (37:11):
No, thank you for all the work
you're doing in this space aswell.
It's really important.
Leisa Reichelt (37:15):
Well, I hope you found that journey through
neuro affirming care helpful.
It's definitely interesting tounderstand the extreme change of
pace that the psychologyprofession is having to deal
with as they seek to understandneurodivergence better.
It can be hard to find goodsupport for our young people and
for ourselves, and hopefullythis gives you a little bit more
confidence about what to lookfor and what you're entitled to
(37:36):
expect, as well as how we canhelp keep our young people safe.
If you have some other topicsthat you'd like us to cover, or
if you have a School Can't livedexperience you'd be willing to
share, please email us atschoolcantpodcast@gmail.com.
We would very much like to hearfrom you.
I'm gonna put the links toDivergent Futures website, as
well as the guide to being aneuro affirming ally that Anna
(37:59):
mentioned into the episodenotes.
I've also put a link to theSchool Can't Australia website
and a link to donate to SchoolCan't Australia.
Your tax deductible donationsassist us to raise community
awareness, partner withresearchers, produce resources
like webinars, and this podcast,which all assist people who are
supporting children and youngpeople experiencing School
(38:20):
Can't.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you are feeling
distressed, remember you canalways call the parent helpline
in your state.
A link with the number to callis in the episode notes.
Thank you for listening, and wewill talk again soon.
Take care.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.