The future of construction is growing taller, more sustainable, and increasingly made of wood. Shawn Keyes, Executive Director of WoodWorks BC, takes us deep into the rapidly evolving world of mass timber construction and why British Columbia has emerged as North America's innovation hub for this revolutionary building material.
The environmental benefits are striking. Mass timber buildings typically contain 30-70% less embodied carbon than concrete alternatives, making them increasingly attractive to organizations with strong sustainability mandates. This carbon advantage, combined with the natural biophilic elements wood brings to interior spaces, has positioned mass timber as the material of choice for forward-thinking developers and public sector projects.
Prefabrication naturally complements mass timber construction. This approach significantly reduces construction timelines while improving quality control—crucial advantages in addressing housing supply challenges.
As the industry evolves, Keyes and his team at WoodWorks BC continue breaking down barriers through education, technical support, and direct project assistance. Whether you're a developer considering mass timber for the first time or an architect looking to push the boundaries of wooden construction, their resources can help navigate this exciting frontier in sustainable building.
Ready to explore how wood can transform your next construction project? Tune in now.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Site.
Visit Podcast Leadership andPerspective from Construction
with your host, james Faulkner,recorded live from the show
floor at BuildX Vancouver 2025.
All right, mr Sean Keyes, howare you doing today?
(00:24):
I'm doing well, james.
Thanks for having me.
What do you think of the showso far?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's been great.
We've got a lot of woodexhibitors here and a lot of
folks new and familiar faces soit's been a great show for us so
far.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Perfect, Okay, introduction you are Executive
Director at Woodworks BC and Idid ask you before the podcast
what does your week look like?
Very hard to answer, which iscool.
That means you do a lot ofthings multifaceted kind of
position you have.
So let's talk about WoodworksBC and nonprofit organization,
(00:56):
and you were saying that you getyour resources to run the
organization by a number ofthings from government programs
and also the different suppliers, manufacturers within the wood
industry.
Yeah, through the Canadian WoodCouncil.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
That's the second time.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I got that wrong.
I got it wrong with Alejandroas well.
So yeah, so just take usthrough.
So you're advocating for theuse of, you know, wood products.
Where is the biggest bang foryour buck in time for you to be?
So how do you, how do you getinvolved?
How to, how to do you?
(01:38):
Is there a business developmentaspect to this, where you guys
reach out to developers?
Hey, we'd like to talk aboutupcoming projects.
How's that all work?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Absolutely there's, I say, three main things that our
woodwork team does specificallyuh, we do what we call direct
project support and that's a lotlike you described.
That's direct outreach todevelopers.
We have a team of uh engineersand architects and technicians
kind of all across canada, sowe're able to add value to them
(02:05):
by providing guidance on newerforms of reconstruction that
they may or may not be familiarwith and help them along the
process.
That's kind of one key bucket.
The second is continuingeducation.
So we have 14 educationalsessions here today and
yesterday at BuildX, and a lotof what we do is con ed, so
we'll do that for architects,anyone along the construction
(02:28):
value chain, engineers,contractors, developers as well.
And then the third bucket istechnical resources, so we'll
provide things like solutions,papers or case studies and
guides based on existingprojects, our own knowledge,
industry knowledge to helpspread that.
And, just essentially, thefundamental goal is to make it
easier for people to build withwater.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Nice, that's cool.
So do you try and obviously getin as early as possible, like
as people are imagining things,even from the design phase.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Absolutely.
I mean we like to go back evenas far as due diligence phase if
a developer is contemplating aproject, especially for material
that they might not be familiarwith, that they're using for a
mass timber project, potentiallyin a 7 or 18 story building.
There's a lot of unknowns andour team can help them navigate
those Really, the earlier thebetter.
(03:19):
We can point them to who thesuppliers are, who the different
firms are that have experiencein that sector.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So what's the bifurcation between using wood
products for structural versuslike?
If we look here at theconvention center, you see from
a design point of view it's moreof a design feature all of that
wood.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Both are great.
Both are great uses of wood.
Both are great uses of wood.
Our team focused more onstructural uses of wood, just
given how our membership is, andit allows us to be a little bit
more focused in terms of whowe're working with and why.
But wood finishes within abuilding can add great feel,
make it feel more like theoutdoors.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
What do they call it biophilic?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Biophilic design principles, absolutely Biophilic
design principles.
There was a good panel sessionyesterday.
I don't know if you got tocatch it, but architects love
this stuff and it's really anemerging science as well too.
So there's a lot of researchgoing into whether wood finishes
can help reduce stress oranxiety.
It's still an emerging space,but there is a lot of research.
(04:20):
That's quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
That's cool.
That's cool.
One second, please Can you getthose guys to move on?
Sorry, no worries.
Yeah, so it's an interestingspot to be trying to record at a
(04:44):
live event.
We had just a group of peoplewho were super loud right here,
but now they've moved on, so nowI can hear you, probably
without any distraction.
I apologize for that, noworries.
When companies are using thingsfor when is the biggest impact
for you guys?
Is it just using wood productsin general, or is it trying to
(05:06):
push more for perhaps lesstraditional materials?
When I say traditional, I meanless concrete, more timber.
Is that where the big bang forthe buck is on your side, or is
it on the design?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
side.
That's the essence of it in anutshell For us.
We try to focus a little bitmore on emerging sectors of
construction.
So wood is extremely popularand residential.
Under six stories, very gooduptake.
Our goals at that market arejust to make sure that.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Like the stick build kind of stuff.
Exactly it's very common.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
You're seeing more prefabrication in those sectors
now as well.
But our goals with thosesectors are just to make sure
that those buildings remainviable and that design and
construction professionals havethe tools that they need to keep
making them successful andeconomically viable.
But where I guess theinteresting problem solving
comes is emerging markets ormarkets where we haven't
traditionally used much wood, soresidential, call it, seven and
(06:02):
above.
Now that the building code'sexpanded, we tend to focus quite
a bit more effort there, wherewe're still figuring out the
best systems to use.
There's more education thatneeds to be done, so we focus a
lot of efforts there, and thereare more risks from a private
sector, so we can add value tothose types of projects a little
bit more easy to help themhappen.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
One thing that Alejandro was talking about was
the fact that now it can go upto 18 stories, or is it beyond
that now?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Up to 18 stories via building code in BC as of April
last year.
So that expands theopportunities just hugely.
There are some precedentprojects across North America
that are a little bit tallerthan that.
So there are ways, but rightaway we're doing the building
code 18 stories residential andjust growing that new market is
a huge focus and a hugeopportunity for a wood second
(06:52):
probably.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
We were talking about a project that's near where I
live, which is called.
It didn't go forward theterrace.
Do you remember that one?
It was like down on Pender andbetween Pender and Hastings, and
it was supposed to be thetallest wood frame.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
It didn't go through for some reason.
I think the market kind ofdidn't hit it at the right time.
But you're seeing architectsplanning out these using more.
When I say wood frame, I'mtalking like mass, like big
structural beam kind ofsituation which is actually
pretty cool stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It's really interesting.
I mean the emergence of masstimber, which is it's a
relatively new technology in theconstruction sector, but it's
kind of old in nature.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, we've seen parallel beams for years,
exactly, and it's not muchdifferent, is it?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
There's a lot of similarities.
You're basically creating largeformat panels and we've even
created nail laminated timberbuildings up to 100 years ago.
Some of the buildings indowntown Vancouver are
constructed just with 2x4s or2x6s right beside each other
nailed together.
There are many ways you cancreate those large panels,
whether it's cross laminatedtimber or glue laminated timber,
but you're basically talkingpanels up to 11 and a half feet
(08:10):
wide by uh, up to 60 feet long,and solid structures.
So it's it's a really excitingtime to be part of the wood
entry, cause it just opens upnew options because, uh, those
buildings are are more fireresistant than you know,
buildings which are built out ofsmaller wood pieces.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, no, for sure, we, I was, uh, we used to have
our office in, um well, the oldoffice we had in yale town.
It had the um, old growth fur,uh, cedar, I think for cedar in
there.
Anyway, the beams were like 16,16 inches huge and I used to
break off screws trying to screwinto them.
You couldn't Like.
They almost became likeconcrete, sure, but we're not
(08:52):
seeing that.
Are we seeing a lot of thatreclaimed stuff?
I mean, how do you guys getinvolved in the reclaimed wood
from, or is it mostly just from,new materials or byproduct
materials?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Primarily still from new materials, but we're talking
much smaller pieces of wood.
Almost any mass timber productis made up of 2x6 or smaller
pieces, right Depending on themanufacturer and location, but
we're not talking large 16x16like you're speaking about.
Yeah, definitely not.
Some of those old beautifulbuildings are fabulous.
There's also been a lot ofinnovation on the connection
(09:24):
side.
There's a lot of differentscrew manufacturers now that
create these screws that are upto almost a meter long.
It's self-tapping.
You don't even need topre-drill holes on site for some
of these screws.
I'd like to see the drill bitfor that or the socket for that.
It's large yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I would say yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
But the new technologies, you're putting
together a highly engineeredbuilding.
We're not using traditionalmaterials.
Everything's very done, precise, on site.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
It's very interesting .
You said that because even thechat I had yesterday was you
know you think about how much onthe wood side of things.
But it really is often that'sthe easy part.
The hard part is the connection, the connection to you know for
vertical and transfers piecesthat you're going to have to
have those specifically made forthe building each time to to,
(10:13):
to match that actual woodproduct yeah what is the?
What country is like theleading in that?
Is it the swiss and the germansagain?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
the europeans have, um, are a little bit further in
the mass timber space.
They've imported a lot ofknowledge over to north america
specifically, bc's become aleader in north america.
Um, yeah, I think we've gotabout 350 mass timber buildings
and there's only about 850 or soacross canada, so almost almost
50 percent there.
Um, and lot of the knowledgeeven that was built here in the
(10:46):
early days.
I would say we had the firstmass timber manufacturer in 2009
here in BC.
Because of that and thatknowledge being imported,
there's a very strong cluster ofdesign practitioners, of
builders, of erectors that wasbuilt here and that knowledge is
actually expanded across NorthAmerica.
You're seeing, even some of theprojects that are built in
(11:07):
Ontario are maybe being designedby folks here in BC or being
installed by folks who wereoriginally trained here in BC.
It's kind of exporting east andsouth from our kind of knowledge
hub in North America here.
But in terms of aninternational scale, we have
world-class designers andconstruction firms.
But in terms of aninternational scale, we have
world-class designers andconstruction firms here.
In terms of mass timber, theEuropeans have been doing it
(11:29):
maybe a little bit longer, butwe have very different
construction sectors and webuild differently.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Nice.
I just had Chris Hill from BCollective on.
Do you know him?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Great, absolutely yeah, chris and I cross paths, I
think maybe five or six timesin the last two years.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, so in terms of, like, you know, we were kind of
geeking out on some of thebuilding material stuff, and I
mean on the prefab side ofthings.
Obviously there is componentsfrom you know that are going to
be coming to site, sort of theoffsite construction side of
things.
You know that that are going tobe coming to site, sort of that
(12:05):
off-site construction side ofthings, um, but stuff like he's,
he's making these panels, um,which is kind of interesting as
well, the.
Are you seeing that?
Um, the advent of off-siteconstruction?
Um and um, uh and uh componentscoming from other places, sort
of the lego build, if you will,dovetailing very well with your
(12:26):
initiatives.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Absolutely.
Chris is a great advocate forthe offsite construction
industry and with what we'retrying to do in terms of
building that mass timber sector, it's inherently an offsite
form of construction.
You're building very largeformats and kind of putting them
in like lego pieces, like yousaid.
So any type of prefabricationwe think adds value to the
(12:48):
construction site yeah there's.
There's always complexities interms of, uh, has the design
thought about prefabrication andbuilt that in?
Yeah, are we able to meet theconstruction schedules which are
constantly changing andevolving.
So prefab has great opportunityto just speed up construction
broadly in any form ofprefabrication, whether that's,
you know, a light wood frame,wall or floor cassette or a mass
(13:12):
timber panel.
Both are, both are excellentand, uh, you know, chris and I
are always trying to get unlocksome of these barriers around
prefabrication, just that areinherent within the system.
That we haven't, uh, that we'vebuilt around more traditional
forms of construction orconcrete in a high-rise setting
or stick built in in a low risesetting creates some challenges
for prefab.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
That the sector is still emerging, but it has great
, great opportunity to, you know, really advance our
construction sector so we have ahuge spectrum of different
types of builders in britishcolumbia and I think it's
probably the same everywhere iswhere you have the people
building hospitals and airportsand then you have the people
building, you know, renovating ahome.
So there's that huge spectrumof Well, transversely, there's
(13:57):
probably there's professionalismon either side.
On that.
There's probably great largebuilders and some that don't
have good reputations and it'sthe same down at the bottom end
of that scale.
But where do you see the?
Is it the sort of mid place inthe spectrum, you see where the
(14:18):
great opportunity is or is itsort of a top-down influence
that the smaller guys want tolook like the bigger guys?
So they're talking about thiskind of using mass timber,
products, etc.
So it is kind of a trend, right, absolutely.
(14:39):
So when we talk about trend,what are the factors that create
trends to move and influenceeach other and you know,
sometimes it can become abranding exercise is that a
developer wants to be known,their project to be known for
using these things because it'sconsidered innovative, etc.
(15:06):
And then, at the end of theline, maybe the people who,
let's say it's a, a companythat's going into a particular
building um, you know mec is aperfect example of.
They want to go into asustainable building, they want
it to be made with thesematerials, etc.
Um, and then uh, or maybe thehomeowner on the smaller scale
wants to have to be able to telltheir friends all when they
have them over for cocktailsthat, hey, we built this with
this, this was this material, wehad this prefab.
(15:28):
We've saved this amount of thisby using these particular type
of things.
X amount of dollars and hourshave been saved, whatever.
So there's lots.
Where do you think thatinfluence comes from?
Or is it just multifacetedeverywhere?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I I think uh, a lot, a lot of where it comes from in
terms of early adoption andinnovation is who's positioned
to maybe take on risk orovercome some of those
innovation costs.
So when it comes to mass timber, a lot of the early adopters
were public sector.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
You know, they wanted their buildings to be more
sustainable than the concretealternative lower embodied
carbon with wood products,generally speaking.
So we see a lot of innovationhappening there in a lot of
research projects.
You saw, actually, the firsttall mass timber building in
North America was Brock Commonsat UBC.
It was 18 stories.
That building was built back in2016, 2017.
(16:18):
So been around for almost 10years now and really that
spurred this recent change inthe building code now, so we're
seeing those early adopters inthe public sector start to drive
demand, increase knowledge andreally be the first adopter, and
I think now we're starting toshift more.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
We're seeing more commercial a lot of pickup and
commercial.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Unfortunately not many people are building
commercial office right now, butMEC was a um example.
There as well, they have theirhome office as well as a lot of
their stores use wood and masstimber products.
But in terms of what we'reseeing now, we're starting to
see now the building codeschange, adding more options and
residential, a lot of non-profithousing.
Housing, uh, projects,associations, yeah, trying to
(17:00):
get into mass timberspecifically for, specifically
for those ESG benefits, thealignment with BC housing goals
and mandates, those types ofthings.
So we're starting to seenon-profit sector kind of take
the lead a little bit.
And then the next sector aswell.
We are seeing some interest aswell from more private
developers, specifically in therental space.
(17:22):
Just because there aren't thatmany comparables for people to
look at within the real estatesector, I think it might be a
little bit less risky for arenter, someone who might not
really notice whether they mightnot care too much whether
they're building concrete orwood.
When you think about the publicsector, they might not
understand the value differencesbetween wood frame and mass
(17:44):
timber and concrete.
It's a little bit more nuancedbut as the real estate sector is
more traditionally built on,they understand what a wood
frame building is and whatconcrete building is.
They won't really understandwhat this new middle piece is.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
So you were saying that the ESGprograms get involved in this.
How's that work?
It's almost turned into justthe EG these days, though.
Right, I think the social parts?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It depends, it seems to be on the rocks.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, so companies with strong.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
ESG goals will want to reduce the embodied carbon of
their buildings and theemissions that go into the
products, and there are ways tocalculate this.
Most design teams will have theability to do this kind of
in-house.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Because wood products still absorb right.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, so they, generally speaking.
They'll absorb carbon from theatmosphere and store that
throughout the project.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Does it still do that with laminated panels and stuff
like that?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Even with the glue involved.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Does it do that or not?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, I mean, my understanding is all the wood,
not really my area of expertise.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
It becomes a little less of a living organism once
you get surrounded by glue,obviously.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, every product has what they call a unique
environmental productdeclaration, so EPD.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Okay, what's that called again?
Epd Environmental?
What Product declaration?
Okay, nice okay cool.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So if you're getting a glulam product or a product
that has glue in it, that willtake that into consideration and
that into consideration andthat will tell you the embodied
carbon impact of that productand basically you'll take a look
at all the pieces that you usewithin your building, whether
it's structure envelope,sometimes even non-structural
components as well.
Tally all those up, it'll giveyou an embodied carbon for your
(19:17):
building how much carbon wentinto that building and typically
what we're seeing is that awood building could be anywhere
from 30 to 66 to 70% less than acomparable concrete alternate.
So there's a big reductionfactor and when you can quantify
that and the client can see itespecially a public sector
client who wants to beinnovative and has a lot to gain
(19:40):
from being sustainable andmessaging that, a big motivating
factor, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, they can afford to use our tax sustainable and
messaging that, yeah A bigmotivating factor.
Yeah, yeah, they can afford touse our tax dollars for it too.
They're like hey let's have agroup.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Why is this?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
designed so well.
Well, you know, it doesn'tinherently need to be more
expensive.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
But they do need to be a driver too, right, yeah,
absolutely, and you know a lotof our sector here in BC.
A big economic driver for theprovince has long been forestry,
so more important than ever touse wood products.
Long been a leader in forestryin North America.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So what are you seeing that's exciting?
What are the things that you'rethinking, wow, this is going to
be awesome.
Do you see some innovationsgoing on right now that you're
excited about?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
There's a couple pieces.
I mean, the building codechanging just opens up way more
opportunities.
Yeah, and we talked about that.
But, um, you know, one of thethings that I'm actually always
looking at for are what are,what are risks or challenges in
buildings that we already builta lot of out of wood and uh,
here in bc I'm an engineer bytraining, so yeah, I can nerd
(20:43):
out a little bit about buildings.
But we have seismic forces.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
We actually had an earthquake just last week, A
couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, Exactly yeah, I felt it.
I don't know about you.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I did.
Yeah, I know the studio for thepodcast has interior walls, so
there's a courtyard inside thebuilding.
So we have glass looking out tothe inside of the building, so
it's not looking outside, and Isaw the glass moving.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I was like wow, that's all right yeah yeah, I
mean, I felt my bookshelf, youknow, shaking next to me a
little bit.
I think they keep moving it, butI think it's four or five, it's
somewhere around five, yeah, sothat's a constant challenge for
design and innovation here inBC, and the six-story wood frame
market has long been built outof wood, but their seismic
(21:31):
forces are changing in March andthat is a challenge but also an
opportunity for us to innovate.
So there are wood solutions tothose types of buildings.
So we're seeing shear wallsbeing challenged by new forces.
So our team has actually beendoing a lot of work with Canada
Wood Group, who works in Japan.
Quite frequently there are highstrength shear wall systems
(21:53):
that we don't commonly use herein North America, but our team
is starting to do a lot moreeducation on them because they
may become required along asseismic forces continue to
increase.
So it's it's not really anopportunity, it's more of a
challenge but a unique puzzlefor us to solve and help educate
and work with the industry on.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, I mean we obviously on the on the
challenge side of things.
You know, I was looking at theLA wildfire thing and I mean
that's just you see this footageof like a concrete house that's
there and then the ones thatweren't aren't there and so
(22:40):
there's like I think there wasin Kelowna.
It's obviously become quite athing, because Kelowna is very
similar, it's got the winds comeand it's a very similar kind of
I mean it's not on the coastbut you have those winds come
down.
And it's like I had a friend ofmine, a very successful realtor
, up in Kelowna.
His house was right on the edgeof like where the wineries were
, so it was basically all openbrush behind him and he had to
leave.
He's like my house might not behere.
(23:07):
So, um, it doesn't mean that'swood construction or not, it's
not that that's irrelevant, butI think there's factors of wood
and combustibility.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I mean I think alejandro is saying everything's
kind of combustible to somedegree um, yeah, I mean that is
true, but, um, you know, we doneed to make sure that we're
spending a lot of resourcesactively managing our forests
properly so that we don't seethose types of fires.
You know, there's a forestrymanagement piece in there and
(23:30):
techniques that have been usednot really my area of expertise,
but techniques that have beenused to help manage those, make
sure it doesn't happen, doesn'tget too close to the city been
used to help manage those.
make sure it doesn't happen,doesn't get too close to the
city.
And then there are lots ofrules about the exterior of
buildings within the buildingcode, about which components can
and cannot be combustible.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yeah, that would make sense.
Having that protection on theoutside is highly important.
So, in terms of what we've seen, I always find it crazy.
When I drive around Vancouverand I'll see, as you said, a
(24:07):
small kind of condo project woodframe, I'm seeing particle
board going up, plywood going up.
I'm just thinking not particleboard, but OSB going up and it's
raining and I'm thinking, doesthis stuff dry out?
It seems very weird Like we'rein this, like rainforest
(24:29):
basically, and we're putting upwood and wood's getting soaked
while it's being built and thenafter that they're going in
there with big dryers, rightLike the big flame, basically
propane and drying from theinside out.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
You definitely don't want to use propane or any kind
of fire.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
What are they using in there now to dry?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
that out Air primarily In most of those wood
frame buildings because thecomponents are small, they
actually dry out quite quicklyand we don't see many problems
Because small components youknow I-joists, plywood, those
types of things.
Where it's actually morecritical to think through is in
mass timber, where these panelsare quite large.
Yeah, that means that if itdoes get soaked or really wet,
(25:12):
it will take longer to dry out,and that's really the issue or
challenge with wood on aconstruction site is making sure
that it dries correctly, yeah,and you're not locking in any
moisture over time.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
That's when you can see challenges.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
But I think that when we go to the kind of business
like Be Collective, for instance, and maybe advocating for that,
it's changing the setup of howyou're using wood, Because,
really, because if you're justgoing to go and build on site
like that and be bringing youknow a bunch of two by fours etc
.
It's a different deal than ifyou're going to be delivering
(25:49):
panels, You're going to bedelivering posts, beams that are
already.
They don't need, they gotenough glue in them.
It doesn't matter.
Like they're going to be prettyhydrophobic to begin with,
Depending on the level of finish.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
there's a whole bunch of different levels of finish
in the prefab space.
Some are closed walls, some areopen walls, some are just
plywood and joists, but all tendto lead to a cleaner, more
sophisticated site that goes upfaster, which also helps.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I can imagine you guys are dreaming of that more
sophistication.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
More sophistication generally leads to better
outcomes, but our constructionsector it's tough.
It is tough.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, I mean a lot of people do a lot.
I mean it's interesting thatyou know the construction
industry is under a lot ofpressure timeline wise.
I was listening to a podcastthe other day and it was a big
podcast and they repeatedsomething that I had said many
(26:46):
times is that what's veryfrustrating for a lot of
construction folk here in theLower Mainland anyways, is that
you have people who are buildingprojects that they can't afford
to live in.
It's just heartbreaking andit's not like that in other
places in the world you canactually afford to live in the
place you built.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, ifyou're talking about the
butterfly building or somethinglike three thousand dollars a
square foot, kids, just astretch.
(27:07):
But you know, if you're talkingabout like a mediocre, you know
run-of-the-mill place, hey,most people should be able for
one of those.
But yeah, so it's kind of it'sgoing to be.
This is very difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
It's huge challenge.
I mean, you know, as arelatively young person in the
city of Vancouver wife and Ihave had many chats Is it
economically viable for us tostay here?
We love the city, right.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
But that's also that's why you know the real
estate condominiums are good.
We have this beautifulgeography, yeah, and you know we
are privileged to live here andmaybe it comes with a small
premium.
It might just be where we're at.
But if we can do anything tospeed up housing starts and
construction, it can only helpMore supply, can only help the
(27:49):
fundamentals, and you know it'sa challenge, but I do commend
the work that's being done.
Like we're in a place right now, over the last let's say two
years kind of since I startedthis role, we're throwing
everything that we can at this.
Whether that's, bc housingprograms or some of the things
you're seeing coming out of theindustry of housing or stuff
that UDI is advocating for.
(28:10):
Everyone's kind of now tryingand realizing that this is a
challenge that our young peoplemay never be able to afford, to
kind of stay here, you know, ournext generations.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's interesting if you can get, get uh canada to up its uh
productivity not in theconstruction sector, I'm talking
about all the other sectors sothat we can have higher paying
salaries.
People can afford more becauseI don't think the prices are
going to go down not not goingdown anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
No, even if they level out, that'd be great.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, I just it's just, it seems like there will
be a lull.
And then there's just so manyfactors of why I was saying this
on one of the interviewsearlier is that you know, if you
were to look 15, 20 years ago,if you were to say that you know
that a computer company isgoing to be worth three trillion
dollars, well, what was worththree trillion dollars back then
(29:00):
?
I mean, we're not talking thata computer company is going to
be worth $3 trillion.
Well, what was worth $3trillion back then?
I mean, we're not talking aboutmillionaires anymore, we're
talking about billionaires.
It's just the way it is.
Everything's becoming moreexpensive For sure.
Butter's $9.
Don't buy butter anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Avoid the dairy aisle .
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Exactly, the dairy aisle is expensive.
Actually, costco is actuallypretty decent for it.
Yeah, but anyway, we digress.
So, sean, this was awesome.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, thank you very much.
I enjoyed the banter and thankyou for expanding outside of the
scope of your job and giving mesome great perspective on the
construction industry.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for the time and thanksfor the ask.
It was a lot of fun.
So how do people get a hold ofyou?
People get a hold of us atwood-worksca or cwcca.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Perfect.
And then you're on LinkedIn too.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Absolutely All over the place on social media
LinkedIn, cwc or Woodworksaccounts and yeah really pick up
the phone and talk to our staff, okay.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Perfect, that's awesome.
Well, thanks very much.
That's awesome.
Well, thanks very much.
Enjoy the rest of your show.
Thanks Right on.
Thanks, bye-bye.
Well, that does it for anotherepisode of the Site Visit.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to stay connected withus by following our social
accounts on Instagram andYouTube.
You can also sign up for ourmonthly newsletter at
sitemaxsystemscom slash the sitevisit, where you'll get
(30:25):
industry insights, pro tips andeverything you need to know
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Sitemax is also the engine thatpowers this podcast.
All right, let's get back tobuilding.
Welcome to the Site.
Visit Podcast Leadership andPerspective from Construction
with your host, james Faulkner,recorded live from the show
floor at BuildX Vancouver 2025.
All right, mr Sean Keyes, howare you doing today?
(00:24):
I'm doing well, james.
Thanks for having me.
What do you think of the showso far?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's been great.
We've got a lot of woodexhibitors here and a lot of
folks new and familiar faces soit's been a great show for us so
far.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Perfect, Okay, introduction you are Executive
Director at Woodworks BC and Idid ask you before the podcast
what does your week look like?
Very hard to answer, which iscool.
That means you do a lot ofthings multifaceted kind of
position you have.
So let's talk about WoodworksBC and nonprofit organization,
(00:56):
and you were saying that you getyour resources to run the
organization by a number ofthings from government programs
and also the different suppliers, manufacturers within the wood
industry.
Yeah, through the Canadian WoodCouncil.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
That's the second time.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I got that wrong.
I got it wrong with Alejandroas well.
So yeah, so just take usthrough.
So you're advocating for theuse of, you know, wood products.
Where is the biggest bang foryour buck in time for you to be?
So how do you, how do you getinvolved?
How to, how to do you?
(01:38):
Is there a business developmentaspect to this, where you guys
reach out to developers?
Hey, we'd like to talk aboutupcoming projects.
How's that all work?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Absolutely there's, I say, three main things that our
woodwork team does specificallyuh, we do what we call direct
project support and that's a lotlike you described.
That's direct outreach todevelopers.
We have a team of uh engineersand architects and technicians
kind of all across canada, sowe're able to add value to them
(02:05):
by providing guidance on newerforms of reconstruction that
they may or may not be familiarwith and help them along the
process.
That's kind of one key bucket.
The second is continuingeducation.
So we have 14 educationalsessions here today and
yesterday at BuildX, and a lotof what we do is con ed, so
we'll do that for architects,anyone along the construction
(02:28):
value chain, engineers,contractors, developers as well.
And then the third bucket istechnical resources, so we'll
provide things like solutions,papers or case studies and
guides based on existingprojects, our own knowledge,
industry knowledge to helpspread that.
And, just essentially, thefundamental goal is to make it
easier for people to build withwater.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Nice, that's cool.
So do you try and obviously getin as early as possible, like
as people are imagining things,even from the design phase.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Absolutely.
I mean we like to go back evenas far as due diligence phase if
a developer is contemplating aproject, especially for material
that they might not be familiarwith, that they're using for a
mass timber project, potentiallyin a 7 or 18 story building.
There's a lot of unknowns andour team can help them navigate
those Really, the earlier thebetter.
(03:19):
We can point them to who thesuppliers are, who the different
firms are that have experiencein that sector.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So what's the bifurcation between using wood
products for structural versuslike?
If we look here at theconvention center, you see from
a design point of view it's moreof a design feature all of that
wood.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Both are great.
Both are great uses of wood.
Both are great uses of wood.
Our team focused more onstructural uses of wood, just
given how our membership is, andit allows us to be a little bit
more focused in terms of whowe're working with and why.
But wood finishes within abuilding can add great feel,
make it feel more like theoutdoors.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
What do they call it biophilic?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Biophilic design principles, absolutely Biophilic
design principles.
There was a good panel sessionyesterday.
I don't know if you got tocatch it, but architects love
this stuff and it's really anemerging science as well too.
So there's a lot of researchgoing into whether wood finishes
can help reduce stress oranxiety.
It's still an emerging space,but there is a lot of research.
(04:20):
That's quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
That's cool.
That's cool.
One second, please Can you getthose guys to move on?
Sorry, no worries.
Yeah, so it's an interestingspot to be trying to record at a
(04:44):
live event.
We had just a group of peoplewho were super loud right here,
but now they've moved on, so nowI can hear you, probably
without any distraction.
I apologize for that, noworries.
When companies are using thingsfor when is the biggest impact
for you guys?
Is it just using wood productsin general, or is it trying to
(05:06):
push more for perhaps lesstraditional materials?
When I say traditional, I meanless concrete, more timber.
Is that where the big bang forthe buck is on your side, or is
it on the design?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
side.
That's the essence of it in anutshell For us.
We try to focus a little bitmore on emerging sectors of
construction.
So wood is extremely popularand residential.
Under six stories, very gooduptake.
Our goals at that market arejust to make sure that.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Like the stick build kind of stuff.
Exactly it's very common.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
You're seeing more prefabrication in those sectors
now as well.
But our goals with thosesectors are just to make sure
that those buildings remainviable and that design and
construction professionals havethe tools that they need to keep
making them successful andeconomically viable.
But where I guess theinteresting problem solving
comes is emerging markets ormarkets where we haven't
traditionally used much wood, soresidential, call it, seven and
(06:02):
above.
Now that the building code'sexpanded, we tend to focus quite
a bit more effort there, wherewe're still figuring out the
best systems to use.
There's more education thatneeds to be done, so we focus a
lot of efforts there, and thereare more risks from a private
sector, so we can add value tothose types of projects a little
bit more easy to help themhappen.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
One thing that Alejandro was talking about was
the fact that now it can go upto 18 stories, or is it beyond
that now?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Up to 18 stories via building code in BC as of April
last year.
So that expands theopportunities just hugely.
There are some precedentprojects across North America
that are a little bit tallerthan that.
So there are ways, but rightaway we're doing the building
code 18 stories residential andjust growing that new market is
a huge focus and a hugeopportunity for a wood second
(06:52):
probably.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
We were talking about a project that's near where I
live, which is called.
It didn't go forward theterrace.
Do you remember that one?
It was like down on Pender andbetween Pender and Hastings, and
it was supposed to be thetallest wood frame.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
It didn't go through for some reason.
I think the market kind ofdidn't hit it at the right time.
But you're seeing architectsplanning out these using more.
When I say wood frame, I'mtalking like mass, like big
structural beam kind ofsituation which is actually
pretty cool stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It's really interesting.
I mean the emergence of masstimber, which is it's a
relatively new technology in theconstruction sector, but it's
kind of old in nature.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, we've seen parallel beams for years,
exactly, and it's not muchdifferent, is it?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
There's a lot of similarities.
You're basically creating largeformat panels and we've even
created nail laminated timberbuildings up to 100 years ago.
Some of the buildings indowntown Vancouver are
constructed just with 2x4s or2x6s right beside each other
nailed together.
There are many ways you cancreate those large panels,
whether it's cross laminatedtimber or glue laminated timber,
but you're basically talkingpanels up to 11 and a half feet
(08:10):
wide by uh, up to 60 feet long,and solid structures.
So it's it's a really excitingtime to be part of the wood
entry, cause it just opens upnew options because, uh, those
buildings are are more fireresistant than you know,
buildings which are built out ofsmaller wood pieces.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, no, for sure, we, I was, uh, we used to have
our office in, um well, the oldoffice we had in yale town.
It had the um, old growth fur,uh, cedar, I think for cedar in
there.
Anyway, the beams were like 16,16 inches huge and I used to
break off screws trying to screwinto them.
You couldn't Like.
They almost became likeconcrete, sure, but we're not
(08:52):
seeing that.
Are we seeing a lot of thatreclaimed stuff?
I mean, how do you guys getinvolved in the reclaimed wood
from, or is it mostly just from,new materials or byproduct
materials?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Primarily still from new materials, but we're talking
much smaller pieces of wood.
Almost any mass timber productis made up of 2x6 or smaller
pieces, right Depending on themanufacturer and location, but
we're not talking large 16x16like you're speaking about.
Yeah, definitely not.
Some of those old beautifulbuildings are fabulous.
There's also been a lot ofinnovation on the connection
(09:24):
side.
There's a lot of differentscrew manufacturers now that
create these screws that are upto almost a meter long.
It's self-tapping.
You don't even need topre-drill holes on site for some
of these screws.
I'd like to see the drill bitfor that or the socket for that.
It's large yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I would say yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
But the new technologies, you're putting
together a highly engineeredbuilding.
We're not using traditionalmaterials.
Everything's very done, precise, on site.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
It's very interesting .
You said that because even thechat I had yesterday was you
know you think about how much onthe wood side of things.
But it really is often that'sthe easy part.
The hard part is the connection, the connection to you know for
vertical and transfers piecesthat you're going to have to
have those specifically made forthe building each time to to,
(10:13):
to match that actual woodproduct yeah what is the?
What country is like theleading in that?
Is it the swiss and the germansagain?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
the europeans have, um, are a little bit further in
the mass timber space.
They've imported a lot ofknowledge over to north america
specifically, bc's become aleader in north america.
Um, yeah, I think we've gotabout 350 mass timber buildings
and there's only about 850 or soacross canada, so almost almost
50 percent there.
Um, and lot of the knowledgeeven that was built here in the
(10:46):
early days.
I would say we had the firstmass timber manufacturer in 2009
here in BC.
Because of that and thatknowledge being imported,
there's a very strong cluster ofdesign practitioners, of
builders, of erectors that wasbuilt here and that knowledge is
actually expanded across NorthAmerica.
You're seeing, even some of theprojects that are built in
(11:07):
Ontario are maybe being designedby folks here in BC or being
installed by folks who wereoriginally trained here in BC.
It's kind of exporting east andsouth from our kind of knowledge
hub in North America here.
But in terms of aninternational scale, we have
world-class designers andconstruction firms.
But in terms of aninternational scale, we have
world-class designers andconstruction firms here.
In terms of mass timber, theEuropeans have been doing it
(11:29):
maybe a little bit longer, butwe have very different
construction sectors and webuild differently.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Nice.
I just had Chris Hill from BCollective on.
Do you know him?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Great, absolutely yeah, chris and I cross paths, I
think maybe five or six timesin the last two years.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, so in terms of, like, you know, we were kind of
geeking out on some of thebuilding material stuff, and I
mean on the prefab side ofthings.
Obviously there is componentsfrom you know that are going to
be coming to site, sort of theoffsite construction side of
things.
You know that that are going tobe coming to site, sort of that
(12:05):
off-site construction side ofthings, um, but stuff like he's,
he's making these panels, um,which is kind of interesting as
well, the.
Are you seeing that?
Um, the advent of off-siteconstruction?
Um and um, uh and uh componentscoming from other places, sort
of the lego build, if you will,dovetailing very well with your
(12:26):
initiatives.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Absolutely.
Chris is a great advocate forthe offsite construction
industry and with what we'retrying to do in terms of
building that mass timber sector, it's inherently an offsite
form of construction.
You're building very largeformats and kind of putting them
in like lego pieces, like yousaid.
So any type of prefabricationwe think adds value to the
(12:48):
construction site yeah there's.
There's always complexities interms of, uh, has the design
thought about prefabrication andbuilt that in?
Yeah, are we able to meet theconstruction schedules which are
constantly changing andevolving.
So prefab has great opportunityto just speed up construction
broadly in any form ofprefabrication, whether that's,
you know, a light wood frame,wall or floor cassette or a mass
(13:12):
timber panel.
Both are, both are excellentand, uh, you know, chris and I
are always trying to get unlocksome of these barriers around
prefabrication, just that areinherent within the system.
That we haven't, uh, that we'vebuilt around more traditional
forms of construction orconcrete in a high-rise setting
or stick built in in a low risesetting creates some challenges
for prefab.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
That the sector is still emerging, but it has great
, great opportunity to, you know, really advance our
construction sector so we have ahuge spectrum of different
types of builders in britishcolumbia and I think it's
probably the same everywhere iswhere you have the people
building hospitals and airportsand then you have the people
building, you know, renovating ahome.
So there's that huge spectrumof Well, transversely, there's
(13:57):
probably there's professionalismon either side.
On that.
There's probably great largebuilders and some that don't
have good reputations and it'sthe same down at the bottom end
of that scale.
But where do you see the?
Is it the sort of mid place inthe spectrum, you see where the
(14:18):
great opportunity is or is itsort of a top-down influence
that the smaller guys want tolook like the bigger guys?
So they're talking about thiskind of using mass timber,
products, etc.
So it is kind of a trend, right, absolutely.
(14:39):
So when we talk about trend,what are the factors that create
trends to move and influenceeach other and you know,
sometimes it can become abranding exercise is that a
developer wants to be known,their project to be known for
using these things because it'sconsidered innovative, etc.
(15:06):
And then, at the end of theline, maybe the people who,
let's say it's a, a companythat's going into a particular
building um, you know mec is aperfect example of.
They want to go into asustainable building, they want
it to be made with thesematerials, etc.
Um, and then uh, or maybe thehomeowner on the smaller scale
wants to have to be able to telltheir friends all when they
have them over for cocktailsthat, hey, we built this with
this, this was this material, wehad this prefab.
(15:28):
We've saved this amount of thisby using these particular type
of things.
X amount of dollars and hourshave been saved, whatever.
So there's lots.
Where do you think thatinfluence comes from?
Or is it just multifacetedeverywhere?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I I think uh, a lot, a lot of where it comes from in
terms of early adoption andinnovation is who's positioned
to maybe take on risk orovercome some of those
innovation costs.
So when it comes to mass timber, a lot of the early adopters
were public sector.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
You know, they wanted their buildings to be more
sustainable than the concretealternative lower embodied
carbon with wood products,generally speaking.
So we see a lot of innovationhappening there in a lot of
research projects.
You saw, actually, the firsttall mass timber building in
North America was Brock Commonsat UBC.
It was 18 stories.
That building was built back in2016, 2017.
(16:18):
So been around for almost 10years now and really that
spurred this recent change inthe building code now, so we're
seeing those early adopters inthe public sector start to drive
demand, increase knowledge andreally be the first adopter, and
I think now we're starting toshift more.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
We're seeing more commercial a lot of pickup and
commercial.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Unfortunately not many people are building
commercial office right now, butMEC was a um example.
There as well, they have theirhome office as well as a lot of
their stores use wood and masstimber products.
But in terms of what we'reseeing now, we're starting to
see now the building codeschange, adding more options and
residential, a lot of non-profithousing.
Housing, uh, projects,associations, yeah, trying to
(17:00):
get into mass timberspecifically for, specifically
for those ESG benefits, thealignment with BC housing goals
and mandates, those types ofthings.
So we're starting to seenon-profit sector kind of take
the lead a little bit.
And then the next sector aswell.
We are seeing some interest aswell from more private
developers, specifically in therental space.
(17:22):
Just because there aren't thatmany comparables for people to
look at within the real estatesector, I think it might be a
little bit less risky for arenter, someone who might not
really notice whether they mightnot care too much whether
they're building concrete orwood.
When you think about the publicsector, they might not
understand the value differencesbetween wood frame and mass
(17:44):
timber and concrete.
It's a little bit more nuancedbut as the real estate sector is
more traditionally built on,they understand what a wood
frame building is and whatconcrete building is.
They won't really understandwhat this new middle piece is.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
So you were saying that the ESGprograms get involved in this.
How's that work?
It's almost turned into justthe EG these days, though.
Right, I think the social parts?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It depends, it seems to be on the rocks.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, so companies with strong.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
ESG goals will want to reduce the embodied carbon of
their buildings and theemissions that go into the
products, and there are ways tocalculate this.
Most design teams will have theability to do this kind of
in-house.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Because wood products still absorb right.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, so they, generally speaking.
They'll absorb carbon from theatmosphere and store that
throughout the project.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Does it still do that with laminated panels and stuff
like that?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Even with the glue involved.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Does it do that or not?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, I mean, my understanding is all the wood,
not really my area of expertise.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
It becomes a little less of a living organism once
you get surrounded by glue,obviously.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, every product has what they call a unique
environmental productdeclaration, so EPD.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Okay, what's that called again?
Epd Environmental?
What Product declaration?
Okay, nice okay cool.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So if you're getting a glulam product or a product
that has glue in it, that willtake that into consideration and
that into consideration andthat will tell you the embodied
carbon impact of that productand basically you'll take a look
at all the pieces that you usewithin your building, whether
it's structure envelope,sometimes even non-structural
components as well.
Tally all those up, it'll giveyou an embodied carbon for your
(19:17):
building how much carbon wentinto that building and typically
what we're seeing is that awood building could be anywhere
from 30 to 66 to 70% less than acomparable concrete alternate.
So there's a big reductionfactor and when you can quantify
that and the client can see itespecially a public sector
client who wants to beinnovative and has a lot to gain
(19:40):
from being sustainable andmessaging that, a big motivating
factor, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, they can afford to use our tax sustainable and
messaging that, yeah A bigmotivating factor.
Yeah, yeah, they can afford touse our tax dollars for it too.
They're like hey let's have agroup.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Why is this?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
designed so well.
Well, you know, it doesn'tinherently need to be more
expensive.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
But they do need to be a driver too, right, yeah,
absolutely, and you know a lotof our sector here in BC.
A big economic driver for theprovince has long been forestry,
so more important than ever touse wood products.
Long been a leader in forestryin North America.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So what are you seeing that's exciting?
What are the things that you'rethinking, wow, this is going to
be awesome.
Do you see some innovationsgoing on right now that you're
excited about?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
There's a couple pieces.
I mean, the building codechanging just opens up way more
opportunities.
Yeah, and we talked about that.
But, um, you know, one of thethings that I'm actually always
looking at for are what are,what are risks or challenges in
buildings that we already builta lot of out of wood and uh,
here in bc I'm an engineer bytraining, so yeah, I can nerd
(20:43):
out a little bit about buildings.
But we have seismic forces.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
We actually had an earthquake just last week, A
couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, Exactly yeah, I felt it.
I don't know about you.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I did.
Yeah, I know the studio for thepodcast has interior walls, so
there's a courtyard inside thebuilding.
So we have glass looking out tothe inside of the building, so
it's not looking outside, and Isaw the glass moving.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I was like wow, that's all right yeah yeah, I
mean, I felt my bookshelf, youknow, shaking next to me a
little bit.
I think they keep moving it, butI think it's four or five, it's
somewhere around five, yeah, sothat's a constant challenge for
design and innovation here inBC, and the six-story wood frame
market has long been built outof wood, but their seismic
(21:31):
forces are changing in March andthat is a challenge but also an
opportunity for us to innovate.
So there are wood solutions tothose types of buildings.
So we're seeing shear wallsbeing challenged by new forces.
So our team has actually beendoing a lot of work with Canada
Wood Group, who works in Japan.
Quite frequently there are highstrength shear wall systems
(21:53):
that we don't commonly use herein North America, but our team
is starting to do a lot moreeducation on them because they
may become required along asseismic forces continue to
increase.
So it's it's not really anopportunity, it's more of a
challenge but a unique puzzlefor us to solve and help educate
and work with the industry on.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, I mean we obviously on the on the
challenge side of things.
You know, I was looking at theLA wildfire thing and I mean
that's just you see this footageof like a concrete house that's
there and then the ones thatweren't aren't there and so
(22:40):
there's like I think there wasin Kelowna.
It's obviously become quite athing, because Kelowna is very
similar, it's got the winds comeand it's a very similar kind of
I mean it's not on the coastbut you have those winds come
down.
And it's like I had a friend ofmine, a very successful realtor
, up in Kelowna.
His house was right on the edgeof like where the wineries were
, so it was basically all openbrush behind him and he had to
leave.
He's like my house might not behere.
(23:07):
So, um, it doesn't mean that'swood construction or not, it's
not that that's irrelevant, butI think there's factors of wood
and combustibility.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I mean I think alejandro is saying everything's
kind of combustible to somedegree um, yeah, I mean that is
true, but, um, you know, we doneed to make sure that we're
spending a lot of resourcesactively managing our forests
properly so that we don't seethose types of fires.
You know, there's a forestrymanagement piece in there and
(23:30):
techniques that have been usednot really my area of expertise,
but techniques that have beenused to help manage those, make
sure it doesn't happen, doesn'tget too close to the city been
used to help manage those.
make sure it doesn't happen,doesn't get too close to the
city.
And then there are lots ofrules about the exterior of
buildings within the buildingcode, about which components can
and cannot be combustible.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yeah, that would make sense.
Having that protection on theoutside is highly important.
So, in terms of what we've seen, I always find it crazy.
When I drive around Vancouverand I'll see, as you said, a
(24:07):
small kind of condo project woodframe, I'm seeing particle
board going up, plywood going up.
I'm just thinking not particleboard, but OSB going up and it's
raining and I'm thinking, doesthis stuff dry out?
It seems very weird Like we'rein this, like rainforest
(24:29):
basically, and we're putting upwood and wood's getting soaked
while it's being built and thenafter that they're going in
there with big dryers, rightLike the big flame, basically
propane and drying from theinside out.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
You definitely don't want to use propane or any kind
of fire.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
What are they using in there now to dry?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
that out Air primarily In most of those wood
frame buildings because thecomponents are small, they
actually dry out quite quicklyand we don't see many problems
Because small components youknow I-joists, plywood, those
types of things.
Where it's actually morecritical to think through is in
mass timber, where these panelsare quite large.
Yeah, that means that if itdoes get soaked or really wet,
(25:12):
it will take longer to dry out,and that's really the issue or
challenge with wood on aconstruction site is making sure
that it dries correctly, yeah,and you're not locking in any
moisture over time.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
That's when you can see challenges.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
But I think that when we go to the kind of business
like Be Collective, for instance, and maybe advocating for that,
it's changing the setup of howyou're using wood, Because,
really, because if you're justgoing to go and build on site
like that and be bringing youknow a bunch of two by fours etc
.
It's a different deal than ifyou're going to be delivering
(25:49):
panels, You're going to bedelivering posts, beams that are
already.
They don't need, they gotenough glue in them.
It doesn't matter.
Like they're going to be prettyhydrophobic to begin with,
Depending on the level of finish.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
there's a whole bunch of different levels of finish
in the prefab space.
Some are closed walls, some areopen walls, some are just
plywood and joists, but all tendto lead to a cleaner, more
sophisticated site that goes upfaster, which also helps.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I can imagine you guys are dreaming of that more
sophistication.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
More sophistication generally leads to better
outcomes, but our constructionsector it's tough.
It is tough.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, I mean a lot of people do a lot.
I mean it's interesting thatyou know the construction
industry is under a lot ofpressure timeline wise.
I was listening to a podcastthe other day and it was a big
podcast and they repeatedsomething that I had said many
(26:46):
times is that what's veryfrustrating for a lot of
construction folk here in theLower Mainland anyways, is that
you have people who are buildingprojects that they can't afford
to live in.
It's just heartbreaking andit's not like that in other
places in the world you canactually afford to live in the
place you built.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, ifyou're talking about the
butterfly building or somethinglike three thousand dollars a
square foot, kids, just astretch.
(27:07):
But you know, if you're talkingabout like a mediocre, you know
run-of-the-mill place, hey,most people should be able for
one of those.
But yeah, so it's kind of it'sgoing to be.
This is very difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
It's huge challenge.
I mean, you know, as arelatively young person in the
city of Vancouver wife and Ihave had many chats Is it
economically viable for us tostay here?
We love the city, right.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
But that's also that's why you know the real
estate condominiums are good.
We have this beautifulgeography, yeah, and you know we
are privileged to live here andmaybe it comes with a small
premium.
It might just be where we're at.
But if we can do anything tospeed up housing starts and
construction, it can only helpMore supply, can only help the
(27:49):
fundamentals, and you know it'sa challenge, but I do commend
the work that's being done.
Like we're in a place right now, over the last let's say two
years kind of since I startedthis role, we're throwing
everything that we can at this.
Whether that's, bc housingprograms or some of the things
you're seeing coming out of theindustry of housing or stuff
that UDI is advocating for.
(28:10):
Everyone's kind of now tryingand realizing that this is a
challenge that our young peoplemay never be able to afford, to
kind of stay here, you know, ournext generations.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's interesting if you can get, get uh canada to up its uh
productivity not in theconstruction sector, I'm talking
about all the other sectors sothat we can have higher paying
salaries.
People can afford more becauseI don't think the prices are
going to go down not not goingdown anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
No, even if they level out, that'd be great.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, I just it's just, it seems like there will
be a lull.
And then there's just so manyfactors of why I was saying this
on one of the interviewsearlier is that you know, if you
were to look 15, 20 years ago,if you were to say that you know
that a computer company isgoing to be worth three trillion
dollars, well, what was worththree trillion dollars back then
(29:00):
?
I mean, we're not talking thata computer company is going to
be worth $3 trillion.
Well, what was worth $3trillion back then?
I mean, we're not talking aboutmillionaires anymore, we're
talking about billionaires.
It's just the way it is.
Everything's becoming moreexpensive For sure.
Butter's $9.
Don't buy butter anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Avoid the dairy aisle .
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Exactly, the dairy aisle is expensive.
Actually, costco is actuallypretty decent for it.
Yeah, but anyway, we digress.
So, sean, this was awesome.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, thank you very much.
I enjoyed the banter and thankyou for expanding outside of the
scope of your job and giving mesome great perspective on the
construction industry.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for the time and thanksfor the ask.
It was a lot of fun.
So how do people get a hold ofyou?
People get a hold of us atwood-worksca or cwcca.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Perfect.
And then you're on LinkedIn too.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Absolutely All over the place on social media
LinkedIn, cwc or Woodworksaccounts and yeah really pick up
the phone and talk to our staff, okay.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Perfect, that's awesome.
Well, thanks very much.
That's awesome.
Well, thanks very much.
Enjoy the rest of your show.
Thanks Right on.
Thanks, bye-bye.
Well, that does it for anotherepisode of the Site Visit.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to stay connected withus by following our social
accounts on Instagram andYouTube.
You can also sign up for ourmonthly newsletter at
sitemaxsystemscom slash the sitevisit, where you'll get
(30:25):
industry insights, pro tips andeverything you need to know
about the SiteVisit podcast andSitemax, the job site and
construction management tool ofchoice for thousands of
contractors in North America andbeyond.
Sitemax is also the engine thatpowers this podcast.
All right, let's get back tobuilding.
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