#9 – Can Mixed Media Challenge Gender Barriers? | Caitlin Gill - The Truth In This Art: Stories That Matter

Episode Transcript
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Rob Lee (00:10):
Welcome to The Truth in Us Art, your source for
conversations that matter,conversations at the
intersection of arts, culture,and community. I am your host,
Rob Lee. Thank you so much forjoining me. Today, we're running
it back. Well, well, sorta.
You may recall previously, I hadthe privilege of interviewing
Amy Cavanaugh from Maryland ArtPlace, and I'm welcoming my next

(00:32):
guest and we're here actually atMaryland Art Place. My next
guest is a mixed media artistwhose work examines the
patriarchy, gender, and theinvisibility of female labor.
She is also the exhibition andprogram director at Maryland Art
Place MAP, where she overseesMAP's exhibitions and
programming. Please welcomeCaitlin Gill. Welcome to the

(00:54):
podcast.

Caitlin Gill (MAP) (00:55):
So I am the exhibitions director for
Maryland Art Place. I've beenhere for about 6 years, and I'm
also the MSAC Arts Directory,manager. So I manage all the
directory content for the stateof Maryland. That's a contractor
position and role here. And thenon top of that, I'm an
interdisciplinary artist.
Kinda I still consider myselfemergent, and then in addition

(01:17):
to that, I also run an allfemale arts collective called
the Gossip Girl Collective andwe just opened a gallery on the
3rd floor here at MAPS, so we'rea tenant of MAPS, called XOXO
Gallery.

Rob Lee (01:27):
Nice. Yeah. And we're gonna dive back into that a bit
more.

Oh, good.

Rob Lee (01:30):
So thank you for teasing it. Yeah. A little bit.
So at this very moment, we'rerecording this as it was
starting to snow when I came inhere.

I know. It was beautiful.

Rob Lee (01:40):
So what what keeps you busy at this very moment? What's
keeping you busy? You mentionedmany things there, but what's
that one that's just like,alright. This is taking 85% of
the the tide that I have.

Oh, god. Well, MAP has entered into a
strategic planning, time. So wekind of are slower here. We're a
bit quieter. We're getting ourelevator modernized, so, which
is perfect timing because we canuse the gallery for all of that
overflow storage of all theelevator parts.
I'm sure you saw when you camein. So because of that, I have

(02:12):
had an opportunity to kind offocus on my art practice a
little bit more and I have anupcoming exhibition at Towson.
So I am working on buildingframes and I just produced like
15 small sculptures over thecourse of, like, a week. So
that's been brutal. Yeah.
So I would say that. And then,the gallery or the collective
has a show coming up in Philly,so I'm producing work for that.
And then I also have a show inMexico City. I'm only

(02:36):
participating, like, including,I mean, 1 or 2 works. And then I
have another show at theBaltimore Art Crit Group, in
February.

Rob Lee (02:44):
Wow.

Yeah. So art.

Rob Lee (02:46):
So art is art right now.

Yeah. Art art is popping off.

Rob Lee (02:50):
Yeah. So what is the the fuel? And it it seems like
it's it seems like it might be asimilar sort of question as to
the the drive we'll have youaround it. Around, like, what
drives you, what motivates you,like, right now, like, some
people may say and but thethemes of what this season's
about as I was, you know,touching on before we got

(03:11):
started. Mhmm.
I'm curious about sort ofattrition and folks, like,
getting deeper into it and kindof improving upon previous
interviews. And you're in thattechnical space of interview Amy
before Mhmm. From from MAP, butinterviewing you now. And we're
here at MAP, so it's almost afull circle thing. But the thing
that kinda motivates and anddrives with this series of

(03:32):
interviews for this year isabout is catching up with folks,
seeing where they're at withintheir careers.
So what is what is what isdriving what is driving you as
far as, like, you maybethematically what's coming up in
the work that you're, you know,working on? Like, you said
sculptures and so on.

So I a lot of my work is about the female
experience or, like, myexperience as female. So it can
be kinda heavily nuanced if I'mbeing honest. Like, some of it,
like, the Roadkill series, whichwill be at Towson, is about
being an empath and likeessentially it's called like the
Runneth Over series because likemy cup runneth over is kind of
the pair like the joke I'm orwhat's the word? Pun that I'm

(04:11):
using Sure. In that work.
So it's a bunch of roadkill andessentially it's like empathy
will kill you because it's likeyou're killing with kindness.
Right? Like you're justconstantly giving so much of
yourself to other people to thepoint where it's like you're
not, you know, in my situation.I'm not like meeting my basic
needs but I'm like helping myfriends move or something to
that effect. I do think kindnessis a pyramid scheme.

(04:33):
So like it's

Rob Lee (04:35):
It's good. It's good.

So I'm kind of like, you know, tackling
that. And a lot of the femaleidentity is about domestic labor
and emotional labor and also,you know, being that person, the
compassionate caregiving. Ourworth is kind of entangled in
all that, our mesh and all ofthat. So that's what my work
kind of unpacks. The chickenseries for example, which is

(04:59):
like hybrid female chickenwomen, is more about the male
gaze and the boys will be boysmentality and how like, okay,
yes, they are nudes, but they'realso they have chicken
appendages to include theirheads.
So it's like if you can'tcontrol yourself because a
woman's dressed inappropriatelyor she, for whatever reason, is

(05:21):
undressed, then can you controlyourself if it had a chicken
head? Right? Like it's like it'skind of like addressing those
harder questions but with humor.That's kind of my whole vibe. So
yeah, I think it just in my ownnuanced way, I'm kind of just
dealing with these like internaldialogues and challenging those
narratives, or even justcreating space to have the

(05:44):
conversation either with theaudience or with myself.
Okay. My new work, so the workfor Towson is about natural
history base. So the work isincluded as the run at the over
series, but also I do, somesculptures. So like this is some
mushroom sculptures that I do.Some of my work is just playful.
It's like an opportunity for meto like palate cleanse because I

(06:04):
do think my work is prettypolitically charged and
emotionally charged. So, I needthat creativity, just like safe
space to just kind of makethings that I enjoy making so I
can go back to doing more laborintensive. And by labor
intensive, I mean likeemotionally labor intensive
work. So, that's that. Otherthings that I'm working on,

(06:24):
ideally, I'd like to move into a3 d direction and create chicken
women that are life size.
I applied for Rubies. If theyhear this, give me the money.
But just kidding. So I want tomake life size sculptures of
those pieces. I'm reallyinterested in sculpture.
My background is in painting,but I'd love to get more 3 d

(06:46):
work in my inventory. So ideallymoving in that direction.

Rob Lee (06:51):
Yeah. I think, you know, there's a few things. And
thank you. Yeah. There's a fewthings I wanna touch on.
Sure. One, the humor piece.Yeah. I think that it's I think
that's funny. Humor is funny.
So as a person that's, mypartner is an empath, right?

Oh, yeah.

Rob Lee (07:06):
And I do too many puns, right, everything is a bit with
me that she's like, are youdone? Yeah. You have more, I'm
sure you have more. And itpopped up in one of her, this
idea of a pun and sort of turnof phrase popped up in her
creative practice. Like, she'sdoing a comic, she's writing
one.

Mhmm.

Rob Lee (07:24):
And it's, about podcasters that are cats.

Oh my god, can I come?

Rob Lee (07:31):
I'll I'll send you the link to it. Yeah.

Does she need cats to act on it? Because
I have 2 torties that are readyand able.

Rob Lee (07:37):
We just got rid of a tortie. Well, we not got rid of
got rid of it. Just gave it toone of our relatives. Yeah.
Yeah.

And The tortitude is real.

Rob Lee (07:44):
She's a character in the comics, so yes. So, but the
concept of herding cats Yeah. Iswhat the podcast is around. It's
like, you know, podcasterstrying to come together and come
together on an idea, It's likeherding cats, and just the fact
that the podcast is a cat, it'sjust it's a pun that just keeps
on delivering. And, because I'vebeen in that sort of space, this

(08:07):
space for like 16 years, I'mlike, yeah, we should have the
podcasts, if you will, do a adfor, like, a dog company.

Oh my god. I'm dead.

Rob Lee (08:16):
It's it's so bad. I'm obsessed. But it's it's it's
really it's hard. It drives. Ijust throw out just ideas
because, you know, subjectmatter expert, I suppose.
But sort of someone who's anempath. So having the, you know,
seeing seeing what I engage inand doing this sort of stuff,
like being able to turn it onand just be dead afterwards,
it's a big, dump emotionally andenergy wise.

100%.

Rob Lee (08:40):
So, you know, her seeing that and being able to
observe it and as an empath feelthat, right? Yeah. It's, it's
almost like, yeah, you're reallyspeaking the truth here in this,
you know, goofy comic aboutcats. The other thing that I
thought was kind of, kind of thepalate cleanser you were
touching on. As far as, like,having work that's, like, heavy
and work that is definitelycharged in a specific direction

(09:02):
and touching on topics andthemes that are, you know, like,
look, this is what I feel.
This is what I've experienced.Mhmm. People people wanna
sanitize cleaned version of it.And I find that in doing this
podcast, I was asked to sharethe story. Right?

Yeah.

Rob Lee (09:20):
On multiple occasions. Oh, take all the stuff out about
this person, this person, thisperson. I'm like, so clean up
the story.

Mhmm.

Rob Lee (09:27):
For who? Yeah. Is it is it not the story? And I'll say
in doing well over 800 episodesat this point Wow.

Yeah. Amazing.

Rob Lee (09:37):
Well, thank you. Sometimes I have to, still
within the practice, dosomething that's just kind of
goofy and fun.

Yeah.

Rob Lee (09:44):
So I might have a conversation with someone. I try
to make this as open aspossible. It's not like, hey,
only answer these questions. So,like, this is a guide more than
anything else. But I do anotherpodcast outside of it just so I
feel like, hey, I'm doingsomething funny that's low
energy but still still good.
I do a movie review podcast inaddition to doing this. So I

(10:05):
noticed at a point when I wasreally heavy in it doing, like,
6, 7 interviews in a daysometimes. I'm like, yeah, I
just wanna watch a movie andthen talk with my friends about
this movie on a podcast. Andthat was my palate cleanser for
that. So I think it's importantto have those.

Yeah. Me too. I think it keeps the
creativity flowing in a way thatlike I think we were talking
about it. I had a lunch withSouncy, earlier. I was like,
People think that making art isfun.
And it is. Don't get me wrong.I'm not trying to say I don't
enjoy creating. But it's alsoreally stressful and it becomes
when you become an artist, itbecomes your job. It's not like

(10:42):
you're creating because you'rejust like, I have an idea.
I'm gonna go in the studio andI'm gonna fully realize this
idea. It's gonna be perfect andI'm gonna have another stroke of
genius in 3 to 6 weeks. It'slike no. I have to like sit down
and produce and I have toproduce a lot and have to do it
under a tight deadline in myspare time which I'm sure you've
gathered I don't have much of.And then, you know, also to like

(11:04):
frame it, ship it, apply foropportunities, pay all the
submission fees to apply for theopportunities, field all the
rejection letters, then likewhen you get accepted like
transport it, you know, installit on occasion.
It's just like it's a lot ofwork. It's a labor of love.
Everything I do is a labor oflove. But, I think speaking
about how it is a practice for areason and that's because it's

(11:28):
not just a creative processafter a certain point. It
becomes almost a disciplined Idon't want to say chore because
that's not the right word, buttask management.
It's exhausting at times. I loveit. Whoever is listening, I love
making art but it's a lot ofwork. Similar to I'm sure you

(11:48):
can relate, like doing podcasts,it's like you love doing it, but
of course, it's exhaust. I mean

Rob Lee (11:53):
It can be.

It can be exhausting.

Rob Lee (11:55):
Yeah. When you're, you know, this is my thing. This is
the this is the thing I have.I'm pointing at my mouth as I
say this. Yeah.
But when it's that that issuewhere it's just like, you were
touching on her earlier, youhave like a hand issue.

Yeah. I'd stab myself in my hand with my
pocket knife, and I cut mytendon and nerve. Isn't that
exciting? Yeah. Pocket knife,literacy, apparently, I cannot I
have to take it off my resume.
Oh, it's a bummer.

Rob Lee (12:18):
I I'm waiting for the series of this is my pocket
knife series. It's like I justdid it with the hand with the
injury.

Oh my god. I should. I've been thinking a lot
about my hands because, like, Iuse them so much in my practice,
and how integral they are. Butalso too, I do a lot of body
parts, either animal or other.It would be interesting to see
how that all comes out later inmy work.

Rob Lee (12:40):
Sure. Yeah. So talk about sort of the the the
disciplines or the the the typesof techniques you're working in.
I see printmaking. I see fiberarts.
You touched on working 3 d.Right? Yeah. And and moving
towards that direction. So whyor what how did you arrive at,
like, this is of interest toexecute here and what is pulling

(13:01):
you towards sort of 3 d now?

That's a great question. So I do think I
am, like, very much of aninterdisciplinary artist. I
kinda get bored with onematerial. I just don't feel like
it achieves everything that Iwant it to and I'm really
interested in texture. And Ifeel like as a result, collage
was kind of a naturalprogression for me.
I still consider all my work,most of it, paintings unless
it's 3 d because, I feel like Ipaint with paper or I paint with

(13:26):
fabric or whatever material I'musing. I feel like I apply it in
a painterly way. So I don't knowhow it really progressed. I wish
I had the timeline in my headbut it was just like it just
evolved. It went from kind ofthe backgrounds where this
hodgepodge of things and thenthe focal point was typically

(13:47):
like a really well renderedpainting.
Then I went to a residency, ChadNorth, up in the Hudson Valley
and Brigitte was like, What ifyou just did white backgrounds?
I remember just strung her off.I was like, Absolutely not. Do
you not understand my work? Youknow?
So ego driven. I got back andthen like, you know, of course I
think it's my idea, right? I'mlike, I'm going to do a white
back. I don't know. I'm such abrat.

Rob Lee (14:10):
It just popped in my head when I did it. It just

popped in my head. I'm such a genius, low
key. Anyway, so I ended up doingit. She commented on my work
because I got into a show in NewYork. She commented on the post
and she was like, I was like,Thanks for the white background
tip, girl, homie.

Rob Lee (14:26):
She's like, I'll keep that credit.

Thanks. Right? Then on the label, it's
my little line item likeBrigitte's idea. No. I mean,
yeah.
It it just it just happens. Ithink feedback is always
important even if we're notready for it. Like, I think
that's the lesson. Right? Like,it's like she had a great idea.
I just wasn't ready to hear it.But when I did, it transformed
my work entirely.

Rob Lee (14:46):
Makes sense. Yeah. So is there a pull right now, or or
drive right now? And I askedthis because I'm as I was, you
know, kinda touching on a littlebit earlier, I didn't go too too
far into it. You know, I'veheard on on on and on from folks
even in doing the teaching thingin the last year that hey, you
should engage in video.
And I'm like, video as a whole,and I'm thinking all the reasons

(15:07):
why Mhmm. Not, right? And alsokind of being very I'm a I'm an
audio first guy, that is mylane. I don't have to face for
video. So, you know, audio is mymy lane.
Right? So in thinking about it,sort of what the next stage and
being more oriented around mediaversus purely audio, I'm like,
okay, cool. Let's at leastexplore that a bit. But I've

(15:30):
heard it for years beforehand,kind of as you were touching
off, I'm like, I don't know ifthat was the time I should have
heard it. Or when folks give mesort of the, I like when I hear
something I've thought.

Yeah. But

Rob Lee (15:41):
I've never said it out.

Yes. Oh my god.

Rob Lee (15:43):
I I had a guest, I had Ducky Dynamo on and she was just
like, you're just kind of doingan Anthony Bourdain thing, but
with light artists and he waslike a black nerd. I was like,
you said it, you said the thing.That's the big

thing for years. That's the fact. Yeah. I
love Anthony Bourdain.

Rob Lee (15:56):
So as far as the the the move towards, 3 d

Yeah.

Rob Lee (16:02):
Was there a moment there or it's just something
else? Just like, I wanna explorethis that you you're you're
looking at it from thatperspective.

I mean, that's yeah. I think it's it's
so hard articulate, right?Because it's like it's all in
your head and I've never had tospeak it to anyone like why or
how like

Rob Lee (16:17):
why

I'm interested in 3 d. But I think
my work is very relief based andI think I'm always looking for
more layers and more layers andmore layers. And at some point,
like, hanging becomes an issueor shipping becomes an issue
because like I use pressedflowers and things like that.
And I think sculpture has beenlike a natural progression
because it has the opportunityto use so many different types
of media like I'm interested inplaster and silicone and I'm

(16:37):
interested in clay and and I canstill work with paper and fiber
in a sculptural capacity. So Ithink it's just like I feel
limited maybe is the right wordon 2 d and I feel like that I
almost feel like these paintingshave taken on to me more of a
sketching Yeah.

(16:57):
Quality where I feel likethey're just ideas that need to
be articulated in 3 d. BecauseI've never done sculpture and
I'm not necessarily nervous orbut maybe insecure is the right
word at first to kind of move inthat direction. I think we all
have imposter syndrome to somedegree. Yeah. So, yeah.
I think it's been holding meback a bit. Taking that leap
into fully going into sculpture.But I'm kind of using this as

(17:21):
like my New Year's resolution,but don't hold me to it because
like in a year, if you're like,Caitlin, how did it go? And I'm
just like, what? I didn't do it,you know.
But ideally

Rob Lee (17:28):
Look, I'm an accountability partner for a
food float. So I'm like justthat text message comes over. So
you said it in this episode thatthis minute

Maybe I need that. I'm in a residency online
and it's been told meaccountable, but I end up just
starting projects and notfinishing it because I'm just
like, I don't know. So maybethis is the perfect opportunity
to be held accountable, but

Rob Lee (17:45):
Just play this one audio clip just snitching once a
week. Yeah.

In my sleep. Yeah. Just fall asleep to it.

Rob Lee (17:51):
It's the worst version of ASMR.

Oh my God. It's like your goals. Not your
goals. God, that is like anxietyinducing.

Rob Lee (18:00):
100 of the times.

I'm here for it though. I love I'm a total
self sabotage. I was like

Rob Lee (18:05):
But I but I think in going back through and and
revisiting, you know, some ofthese interviews because I make
it a point to try not to ask thesame question, or if I'm asking
the same question there's anintent to it. Like, let's say if
it's something that's a little,like, juicy, and they may have
had a take, you know, the guestmay have had a take, let's say 5
years ago, and now it's like, Ihave a completely different

(18:26):
definition of it now. So when weeventually get back to you
coming back on this podcast,this is the technically your
first time. Yeah.

I know. I'm excited.

Rob Lee (18:34):
So I gotta ask you this, what is your relationship
with the word artist?

Isn't everyone's complicated? Does
anybody answer that? I feel likeit totally encapsulates my
identity. It's like, I don'tknow. I feel like when you're
not producing, everyone's justfreaking out like you are.
Every artist I know when they'renot producing is freaking out.
So I feel like it's like I thinkit took me a long time to kind
of heal my relationship with mywork. I took a 10 year break.

(19:03):
Like I didn't paint for 10years.

Rob Lee (19:04):
Oh, wow.

I was in an abusive marriage and I feel like
that just like sucked my soulout of me and I feel like my
work was a way for me toprocess. It's kind of
therapeutic. So, and I don'tthink I was processing much of
anything during that time. But,you know, I hit the ground
running and I also got to forceLoki. So like, you know, and
I've produced a lot of worksince then.
But during that 10 year gap,would I have identified as an

(19:27):
artist? Probably not. And Ithink I do identify as an artist
but I almost feel like I feellike I'm more of an exhibitions
director first, artist second,than artist first, exhibition
director second. Reconcilingthat in perpetuity has been hard
because it's like you'recreating opportunities or you're
creating art and it's hard totoggle those two tasks. But,

(19:50):
yeah, I mean, I love beingcreative.
I think it's necessary for me toproduce work because it's again
a way for me to process a lot ofthings. And if I'm not making
then my mental health tends tobe lower. So it's almost hard
because I feel like artistsounds so like it's a choice and

(20:10):
I don't know if it was a choicefor me. I feel like it was never
an option not to make work.

Rob Lee (20:17):
Yeah. I mean, I always go into these these different
books. Like, I would listen tothe Austin Kleon audiobooks, The
Death of the Artist, Weighingthe Residwitz. That's always
been a part of it over those 5years. And just kind of
exploring things and thinkingabout, you know, what I do and I
I find that, you know, therelationship is always kind of

(20:37):
odd with that terminology andsort of the identification with
it.
Kind of similar to, to like,chefs at times. You have some
people cook really well and it'slike, I don't use the term chef.

Yeah.

Rob Lee (20:46):
And I find that when I was very young, I wanted to be a
comic book artist. That's what Iwanted to do.

That's so cool.

Rob Lee (20:55):
And I had to kind of reconcile with not that not
happening, you know, just andand being good with it. Right?

It can still happen.

Rob Lee (21:03):
Well, I I I approach it in a different way. In doing
this, I went into writing acomic for in hiring artists to
just draw it. So I'm still ableto satisfy that sort of sort of
goal. So I think what I'm kindof touching on is in the 35 plus
years since this initialinclination to draw cartoon

(21:24):
characters and try to draw Xmen, that's what I was doing as
a kid, I've been able to dabblewith different things creatively
that caught my interest. Sofrom, you know, so it wasn't a
choice I suppose, or it wasalways just there, from doing
illustration and it's like thatserved its sort of point, right,
in thinking that that's thedirection I was gonna go.

(21:46):
And then moving into, I wannawrite for a bit, I wanna do
poetry. And so, football bodytype, but I'm writing poetry,
it's like I'm your bard, andit's like what are you gonna do,
like put together ahyacinthameter or something,
what are you gonna do, tackle?Specifically for you, I will

(22:14):
find them. And then, but I Ithink, and I've touched on this
before in this pod, that, youknow, playing with audio, you
know, as far as figuring it out,just exploring, Finding a little
handy recorder, finding adubbing machine and doing rhymes
on there. I started justgrabbing a microphone and I
would ask my classmates, in kindof interview style, with the mic

(22:37):
that was the beginning of doingpodcasting.

That's so cool.

Rob Lee (22:40):
And I could see it. I could see those sort of threads
there, so it was like, it'sstorytelling Yeah. Throughout,
whether it be, hey, you know,what is this character doing in
this comic, to what is myclassmate doing, to what is this
talented artist doing.

That's really cool.

Rob Lee (22:53):
Yeah. Thank you. That's that's the trajectory. I'm
telling that story now to makeit seem like it's well composed.

It's No. I mean, it's never linear. Right?
Yeah. Like normalize it.
I feel like time isn't linear.Like Life isn't linear. We just
project that onto life, but itdoesn't track. It's not. It's
like a bunch of differentopportunities that kind of
coalesce and then you make adecision.
Red pill or blue pill?

Rob Lee (23:19):
I I was gonna say something about a flat circle,
don't I?

Not a flat earther. No. I'm just kidding.

Rob Lee (23:24):
No. No. No. No.

I am. I'm offended. I'm just kidding.

Rob Lee (23:28):
I was like, what are we doing? I mean, there's a map at
the day job. I'm like, that'swild.

Prove it.

Rob Lee (23:33):
That's like, I need to see it. So I wanna talk about
MAP a bit, and I wanna talkabout, Gossip Girl Collective.
So let's let's talk about MAP.And also, the Maryland State
Arts Council Arts Directory. Sofor listeners who aren't
familiar, could you share whatMAP is and what it's doing for
local art community and how yourroles contribute to sort of

(23:55):
supporting local arts community?

Sure. So, Maryland Art Place is a 501c3
nonprofit. We're about 40 3years old. Don't quote me, but
I'm pretty sure. It's inAquarius.
We did its chart. You'rewelcome.

Rob Lee (24:10):
That's great.

I know. That's great.

Rob Lee (24:13):
'Tis the season.

We did. We did. We did this entire
astrological chart. We're verycompatible.

Rob Lee (24:18):
This is great. This is great.

I'll have to share it with you. Anyway, so we
do between like 5 7 majorexhibitions a year. Ideally,
some of you out there arefamiliar with us. But, if you're
not, we do 2 benefits. 1 isunder 500 which we recently
rebranded to under 2,500 to kindof just create that cost of
living.

(24:39):
You know, establish that likeprices are continuing to
increase. So like, you know, 50%of the proceeds go towards MAP's
annual operating budget. But 50%of $500 is just like not cutting
the mustard so we ended upupping it. And then we do out of
order which is our annualauction. It's a silent auction
benefit which comes up in April.
This year's theme is Barbarella.That's true. I'm pumped. I don't

(25:00):
know. You know Barbarella,right?
Yeah. Okay. Thank God. I toldsomebody that today and they
were like, Who's that?

Rob Lee (25:05):
And I

was like, Stop it.

Rob Lee (25:06):
For the folks that don't know, hit them.

Yeah. And it's like, I'm saying it's like,
I was like, She's a queer icon.And then they were like, She's
queer? And I was like, No.That's not the point.
That's not how you become aqueer icon. We just go around
asserting it. Anywho, so yeah.And then we do Youngblood, which
is our MFA retrospectiveexhibition. So me and Amy go
around.
We review all of the thesisexhibitions in the state. And

(25:30):
then we curate an up and comingsampling of the work of MFA
graduates of that year. So 2025will be this Youngblood. And
then everything else, we used todo the MSAC Triennial. We are, I
believe, bringing that back.
There'll be a couple of othershows but it just is kind of
contingent on either we mighthave an independent curator.
Zoey Charles has a soloexhibition here. So we do about

(25:52):
a solo exhibition every 2 years,I would say. And then outside of
that, we own our building. So wealso operate a bar and basement
cabaret venue.
So that will probably beprogrammed in the spring of
2025.

Rob Lee (26:06):
Oh, yeah.

And then the MSAC directory, anyone can
become a directory artist. Allyou have to do is apply. It's
super simple. And you can uploadas many as 5 to 10 images and
PDFs, videos, any subjectmatter, any medium. And it's
free and you can use it as yourwebsite if you'd like.
If you can't afford a domain orsomething of that nature or just

(26:29):
don't want to make that leap orcommitment to having your own
website. Yeah. It's pretty sick.I would strongly encourage any
Maryland resident artist tocreate a directory profile.

Rob Lee (26:39):
I believe I have one on there.

So Oh,

Rob Lee (26:40):
it's a

I'm gonna go find it after this.

Rob Lee (26:42):
It's got an outdated picture. I need to update it.
Okay. My face is smaller. Mine I

have to update mine too. We can do it
together. We can do it afterthis podcast.

Rob Lee (26:52):
It'd be great. It's just like you have more hair in
this picture. I had that happenin an interview. Someone was
like, how old are you? I waslike, this age.
It's like, the hairline saysthat you're a little older. I
was like, this, can we befriends with this podcast?

It's so out of pocket. I can't believe
people say that to you.

Rob Lee (27:09):
That's gonna be the spin off. It's gonna be Patreon
only, the out of pocketepisodes. Oh, jeez. Here's some
of the things I listen to.

You should do, so we did this solo show for
Bonnie Shoop who recently passedaway, David Ettland's wife. And
she had this book where shefollowed strangers around and
just wrote down one quote.Literally every day would follow
people around and just writewhatever they said like one
sentence and completely like nocontext or anything. And I read

(27:37):
it. I read it.
It was amazing and I feel likethis is what we're moving
towards. You need to like justeverything that random out of
pocket things that people sharewith you, you just have to like
keep keep track of it.

Rob Lee (27:46):
I might just put down where it was because I I have a
pretty good memory when it comesto that, especially when there's
a degree of disbursement. Mhmm.It's like, what'd you say to me?
Hold on, put file it away. Fileit away.

Like literally, like why would
anybody say that? You're a safespace.

Rob Lee (28:03):
And then I have to keep an inventory of like, what did I
say to those? Oh, okay. Because

That's where your comic is.

Rob Lee (28:09):
This is true. There because there's there's a
podcast Rob and then there's athey converge. There's a real
life Rob and a podcast Rob. Rob.They intersect.

I get that. Yeah.

Rob Lee (28:17):
But there are some times where it's just like, man,
he's in that Frisbee wallet.

I get it. Yeah. There's like customer
service Caitlin, and thenthere's like Caitlin that's just
like been pushed one email toomany.

Rob Lee (28:29):
I I I I think I follow both actually.

If you follow both my Instagram
accounts, you're in for a wildride.

Rob Lee (28:37):
They it's it's a very interesting tale.

I was talking to Sony and I was like,
do I look like I'm enjoying mylife or do I look like I need to
be institutionalized? I toe theline on my feet and I
acknowledge that. That's whyit's private. Only a select few
get admission.

Rob Lee (28:57):
We have a mutual friend. Zoe and I are friends.

Yeah. I know. Zoe is normally in my
shenanigans, but now she'slocked down in her new
relationship.

Rob Lee (29:10):
So in in addition to, you know, MAP, Maryland State
Arts Council and all, you youfound it. Right? Gossip Girl
Collective?

Yes. I founded it. Yeah.

Rob Lee (29:19):
So what led to it? Well, and how does it align with
your vision, you know, as artistand as a leader in the arts
community?

Yeah. I mean, it started off innocent
enough. Like, it kind of got itblew up. I think there's just,
like, a general need within thecommunity for, like, safe spaces
where, like, there's resourcesharing and just, like, a
general sense of community andsupport. It started off with
like 5 to 7 members, coremembers and then we eventually
like just got we did a newmember invite where we like

(29:46):
invited people and opened it upand we got a lot of engagement
through that and then it's justbeen like a word-of-mouth thing
where people are like, I metthis person.
Can you add them to the emaillist? And we just do. It's not
really like we're out seekinganyone. They kind of find us and
it's a really fluid collective.Anyone can come and go at their
leisure.
Essentially with the collective,which is different than the

(30:08):
gallery. So the gallery isumbrella under the collective
but the gallery was formed by 12members who have agreed to take
on a financial commitment ofmanaging the space. Whereas the
Gossip Girl Collective, there'sno membership fee or anything
and there's really nocommitment. We do exhibitions
together. So we have one upright now called Brumation at
School 33, which if you haven'tseen it or if the viewership

(30:32):
hasn't seen it, I wouldencourage them to check it out
depending on when this drops.
But, yeah. And it's just likewe'll go and as a group apply
for shows and funding and thingsof that nature. But the XOXO
gallery is strictly a curatorialinitiative.

Rob Lee (30:47):
Got it.

So, we curate shows. Each member gets a
6 week exhibition out of the 12.Each member gets 6 weeks and
they can curate whatever theywant. That's right. So right
now, grit is on view curated byGrace Doyle.
Prior to that, it was Frosh Weekwhich was curated by Ann
Margret. Upcoming, we have anautomat collective takeover.
We're doing a gallery swap soour work is going to Philly and
their work is coming here. Andwe are open to having like the

(31:10):
member can hire a curator orgive their space up to a
curator. They can jury their ownshows.
They can invite a jury to jurytheir shows. And it's like
whatever you want to do for the6 weeks, you can. The only like
real limitation is that we don'tallow solo exhibitions outside
of 2 years. Like every 2 years,you can do a solo show in the
space, but you can't we can'tjust keep showing our work over

(31:32):
and over because that's not thepoint of the space.

Rob Lee (31:35):
Right. Yeah. That makes sense. And I like the the
openness there. Like, I've beenriding this this sort of idea of
I think the best situationshappen.
Or a lot of the good situation.I don't know if they're always
the best. But a lot of the goodsituations happen when folks are
allowed to just cook. Yeah. It'sjust like, if you guys wanna
bring a curator and you got it,here.
Here's the space for this numberof weeks and you're able to work

(31:57):
within these parameters, butit's not a lot that's there. So
that's a really coolopportunity.

Yeah. And you know, we we pay our rent and
then we put in like a a fee thatyou get back as a stipend for
your exhibition. Sure. So likeall the money returns to the
member. It's like, really we'rejust like paying to kind of
create opportunity in Baltimore.
That's the goal.

Rob Lee (32:17):
So. So I got 2 more real questions. Oh. And then we
get to these rapid firequestions, which I'm sure you
forgot. Because I like to lullpeople to sleep.
Hey, we're having

fun with this. Safe and yeah.

Rob Lee (32:29):
And then it's like

And then it's like, no. You're not.
Perfect. I thrive in thatenvironment.

Rob Lee (32:36):
So how do you so I and and I I was touching on this a
little bit as it relates topodcasts, and I know it relates
to artists. And I know thatsocial media drives a lot of
this, but sort of we talk about,like, the market and the
different trends that happen.What is your relationship with
sort of the market and being ina a space where you're an

(32:59):
artist, you're also an an artsadvocate, an arts resource, a,
you know, arts community, like,leader. What is your
relationship with it? Because wealways hear about the market.
It's like, people aren't buyingthis, or no one's making this,
or people are switching theirwork around. I've had I remember
one that was just a damningsituation where I had a, young

(33:21):
artist who was, in thefilmmaking world and just he had
a really bad experience. So it'slike, I'm done with this, got
rid of his camera, and he's justlike, I'm just gonna get rid of
his, video camera. It's like,I'm just gonna do photography
now. Mhmm.
As a direct response to no onecares about my work, so I'm
shifting. And I was just like,you're 22.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a relationship with
the market and nobody buys mywork. I mean, I've had a couple
buyers, That was like when Ifirst started and I feel my work
was a little bit more palatableand I don't want to use the word
decorative, but I think it couldhang in your living room. You
know?
No one's buying roadkill andchicken nudes women. They're

(34:02):
just not and that's fine. Idon't care. You know? Mhmm.
I, you know, not for nothinglike, I make work that I wanna
make and I don't really let themarket dictate what I want to
make. I'm not sales motivatedwhich is like antithetical to
the entire thing because likeyou need money to make the work.
It's expensive like not for, youknow, not for nothing. So, I

(34:22):
struggle with it. Like I did anart fair in New York.
I paid like $1500 for a boothfee. I paid like $350 to $500
for an Airbnb. And like, youknow, that's not including
traveling there and making thework. And I sold nothing.

Rob Lee (34:34):
Yeah.

And then I'm doing like, I'm in this
residency and that's where mywork is going is to Mexico City
for another art fair. And it'slike I fully anticipate that I
will not sell anything. And I Iguess I just made my peace with
it. I just don't really care. Isthat terrible?
Maybe I sound like too cool forschool. Like No. That capitalist
agenda is not for me, you know.

Rob Lee (34:54):
But No. But I think I think that's a good point. Like,
you know, I I've I had this one,situation where I was able to
travel a lot of times, and I wastouching on it before we got
started, of, like, you have avision as to what you wanna do,
but, you know, there's arelationship with capitalism
there. Right? And, you know,what my plans were for this year

(35:14):
involve travel, involve going toother places, and what I wanted
to do was still using this sortof idea of running it back, but
for folks in these other cities,I wanna interview 1 person and
have them serve as a producer.
It's like, who are 3 people Ishould interview while I'm here
in town that are new artists andso on? So they get a producer's
credit, all of this differentstuff, and really being of the

(35:36):
community and Yeah. Broadeningand connecting that community.
And it's kinda to the backburner now in in part because of
the whole the whole fundingconversation. Right?
But, you know, when I take on anopportunity that requires me to
spend a little extra money, thisis kind of an easy or really
agile setup. I own my equipment.I, you know, have the talent I

(35:57):
suppose, and I have my homestudio. Right? So those are all
things that I own.
So anything outside of that,it's a cost on me. Mhmm. And,
you know, I don't go into anopportunity of, like, oh, how
many followers does this personhave?

Thank God, because I wouldn't be here.

Rob Lee (36:14):
But I but I I I'm on the other side of it though,
where folks are, like, yeah, youknow, just I only see 6,000
followers from you. It's like,alright.

Oh. Cool.

Rob Lee (36:22):
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's very weird because

It is weird.

Rob Lee (36:24):
I try not to make this a that it's it's of it has
influence, I suppose, but Idon't position it as an
influencer sort of medium. Andit's something about that where
everything is attached to adollar amount. Your movie sucked
if it didn't make a$1,000,000,000 Mhmm. Or what
have you. And it's like, that'snot what it is.
It's a creative expression.

It doesn't matter. It's like all that
matters at the end of the day islike what you think. Yeah.
That's all that matters. If youthink it's valuable, if you
think it's successful, if youfeel successful, nothing else
matters.

Rob Lee (36:56):
This is true.

Yeah. I stopped looking outwards,
honestly. I just don't think itserves anyone to be jonesing
each other like grass is alwaysgreener. I just don't I don't
wanna participate in that. If Idid, like it's funny because I
just have this meeting with mycollective and it's like if we
were all competing with eachother then we couldn't build
community.
That's not the way it works.

Rob Lee (37:15):
Wow. That's true.

So like you have to like check your ego at
the door and support each otherunconditionally because like at
the end of the day that's whatwe're all looking for anyways,
unconditional support.

Rob Lee (37:23):
Yeah.

So like show it, you know, be what you be the
change like Yeah. But like in aI think in a fundamental but
also small way. It's like, allchange is going to be this like
huge impact, right? Not to belike a philosopher. I go to a
lot of therapy, like so much.
Like I should plug my therapistbecause she's amazing. She's
also a Sagittarius and I feellike I wouldn't listen to
anybody but a Sagittarius, soit's perfect.

Rob Lee (37:45):
Oh, Sagittarius.

Oh, no. It's that bad.

Rob Lee (37:48):
Both my brothers are Sagittarius. Oh.

Well, I am not reproducing. So

Rob Lee (37:55):
No. It's it's it's it may be. Perfect.

Yeah. Well, you're in a fridge. You probably
thrived a little bit low key inthat environment. If you were
like, oh, an earth sign, you'dbe, fuck that. Yeah.
You probably would have like hadto go to a lot of therapy if you
don't already.

Rob Lee (38:09):
So, well, so as we wrap up here Yeah. And thank you for
that. This is this is good. Igot one sort of like last real
question here, and it's more ofthe and I think it aligns with
what you were touching on therea moment ago of like, you're
doing this for yourself. You're,you know, for someone that's
young, so I feel like, you know,I've heard the whole Micah, I

(38:31):
had some folks from Micah,they're like, man, go into your
podcast, it's like a rite ofpassage.
I was like, is it?

That's really cool. It it is.

Rob Lee (38:37):
And I've had other folks that that hit me up and
say, yo, young people reallylisten to your I was like, I
don't know. Don't glaze me up.But for from your perspective
and the background and the lanesand in your universe, what would
be a piece of advice you wouldshare with someone who wants to,
like, you know, just kind of dowork that feels really personal
that that kinda toes that lineand that isn't necessarily, you

(39:00):
know, of the market, if youwill, or who wants to work in
community and not do thecompetition thing. But it's
like, how do we all kinda, forlack of a better term, eat off
of this and thrive off of this?What a piece of advice would you
share?

I mean, I think ultimately, like I have I
have a little bit of man behindthe curtain energy. Right?
Because like I work inexhibitions and then I'm also an
artist. So it's like I kind ofknow how how the decisions get
made. And ultimately it's it'sso arbitrary and I mean that
like it's not that we're likeit's not about whether the work
is good or bad.
It's about what it's trendingtowards. Like everyone's

(39:32):
collective consciousness whatit's trending towards and that's
how you produce a show. Sothings that we love may not get
selected because it's nottrending along with everybody
else. And it's like that doesn'tit's not a reflection of whether
or not you're skilled or not orwhether or not your work is
important or not or whatever.Whatever you're trying to
achieve with your work.
It's just that simple. So don'ttake rejection personally

(39:54):
because it's not personal. Anddon't let it deter you. And
don't let it inform. Don't tryto figure out what they want and
then produce it.
Figure out what you want andmake it and the rest will
happen. What is ever meant foryou will happen for you. The
doors will open. The right doorswill open and like there's a
market and a scene and anopportunity for everyone out
there. That's the thing.
There's so much opportunity.Like it's not you'll find your

(40:18):
niche. It's just it might not beyou know you might have to go to
New York to find it. Not likedon't leave. We want you to stay
in Baltimore.
But, you know like apply forexhibitions outside of the
state. Apply for opportunitiesthat aren't necessarily in an
echo chamber because Baltimoreis guilty of it. I think every
art scene is. It's like it cankind of be a little redundant.

(40:39):
I'm not Baltimore Energy.
My work is not I get chosennature centers and I'm like,
Yep. That tracks.

Rob Lee (40:46):
You know what I mean?

It's either university galleries or nature
centers. Those are my 2 camps. Idon't know why. I didn't make
the rules. You know what I mean?
But here we are. It's like,you'll find it. You'll find it.
It might be in Southern Marylandat some obscure nature center or
arboretum, but I'm not mad atit. I love trees.

Rob Lee (41:05):
That's a great way to put it. It reminds me of this
clip I saw from like Jim Curryand he was talking about sort
of, he's being interviewed andit's like, so you did a living
color instead of SNL. Mhmm. Andso how did that come along? And
it's definitely a codedquestion.
Why should it be black SNLversus your white guy? And he's
like, you know, I'm kindalooking for any opportunity.
Door, window, crevice, crack.And then, you know, for a big

(41:28):
chunk of the nineties, he wasone of the biggest stars that
was out there, and a 30 plusyear career, and it was just
like, you you were you were theguy back in the day that had the
rubber face that didn't do SNL.So it's it's very interesting to
your point around finding, like,your crack, your crevice, your
Yeah.
Your way in. Yeah.

And you will. Like, you won't it's not
like doors are never gonna open.They're never gonna open. You
know, just like the door thatyou're banging your head against
might not open. So just go toanother door.
I've gotten rejected from somany things like and you know I
think it's easy to get caught upin like that person got it and I
didn't. It's like it's becauseat the end of the day it's all
just aesthetic judgment. Theseare people that have their own

(42:07):
we all have our own taste. Thereis artwork that I absolutely
love and then there's artworkthat I won't spend a lot of time
on because it's just not myvibe. But it's like, is that to
say it's less successful?
No. It's just that's mypreference.

Rob Lee (42:20):
Yeah.

We're all operating out of preference. So
it's like, just because it's notsomebody's cup of tea doesn't
mean it's not somebody else's.And don't fixate on whose it's
not because that's not meant foryou. Yeah. No.

Rob Lee (42:30):
It's

Go find what's meant for you.

Rob Lee (42:32):
That's good. That's a good point to close on,
actually. Yeah. That works. It'skind of a needle drop.
When we talk about this quotebook that comes up, I'll have
that one in there.

Yeah. Good. I hope so.

Rob Lee (42:42):
Alright. So I got 3

Oh, God. So nervous.

Rob Lee (42:45):
I got 3 rapid fire questions. I'm always sweating.

Normalize it.

Rob Lee (42:49):
Just it's the meat sweats. So here here's the first
one, and this is however itcomes to you is the right
answer. However you wanna answeris the right answer.

Oh my god. It's like a riddle.

Rob Lee (43:01):
Oh, it is.

Okay.

Rob Lee (43:02):
It is. The Chinese finger traps. Great. So the
first one, this this relates to,like, art. I saw this this quote
earlier that really inspired it.
And it's sort of like, are yougoing further as an artist
because of obsession or becauseof talent?

I would say that can I can I do a weird
third option?

Rob Lee (43:23):
Sure.

Necessity. Like, I swear it's it's like
it's like the only thing I dofor me. It's, like, selfish. I
think that's why I strugglegetting back into it because I
said I was an empath earlier,and it's, like, it was it felt
so selfish and ego driven tojust produce and think everybody
should look at it. You know whatI mean?
Yeah. But people that havechildren do that all the time.
So, like, I don't see thedifferences. I'm just kidding.

(43:45):
But, yeah.
I mean, I think I just have to.I can't imagine my life where
I'm not I just can't imagine alife where I'm not doing it. So,
I mean, maybe, like, with atouch of obsession, maybe, but

Rob Lee (43:57):
I I get obsessed and I call it, and it's very Aquarius
brand and I call it riding awave. Mhmm. Yeah. It's just like
I'm I'm just on in this. Likewherever it takes me is where
I'm gonna go.
You know, it's like it was aperiod in which I wasn't saying
no to a lot, and then startingoff with that base level, and
then refining as I go along.It's like polishing a stone or

(44:18):
something. But yeah, at leaststarting off with, this is an
opportunity. This should work.Let's see where it goes.

Yeah.

Rob Lee (44:24):
And to and so when someone's like, why are you
doing so many? Because I likeit.

Right.

Rob Lee (44:29):
And maybe it borders on obsession, you know. I don't
know if I'm talented per se, butobsession which sounds really
really I

don't think I'm talented. I'll be honest. I
really think and that's not likethat's not me trying to like
fish for a compliment oranything. I genuinely don't
think I am. I think I have madea system that works around my
weaknesses really successfully.

Rob Lee (44:49):
It's good. It's a good way to put that. Yeah. Alright.
This so the next 2 are Yeah.
Emotions. What do you usually dowhen you're bored?

I don't get bored. Are you kidding? Downtime
is my worst nightmare. I wasterrified of have of being
bored. My girlfriend isliterally like, you can't sit
you, like, sit.
And I'm like, nope. I'm eithersleeping or I'm working. That's
it. Those are the 2 modes. Andthat's not like a flex.
Like honestly, don't live mylife. Learn from me. Don't do
it. It's honestly exhausting.But yeah, no.

Rob Lee (45:19):
I'm always on agitated, you know, just energy. It's
like, I gotta work on this.Here's some questions here. Like
when I was going back throughearlier and and like, fine
toothing your questions, I waslike I got 4 other guests I can
work on. Let me just writethese.
And it's like that Kermit memewhere he's just like typing and
throwing paper over hisshoulder, and I'm supposed to be
at work.

Heard. Yeah. No. I don't I think Amy also
would would agree and she'sshe's never bored either. Like,
we're just like we're just likebuilt different.
Like, we're just worker I thinkthere are people that my mom's
always like, what? When you'reon your deathbed, are you gonna
wish you worked another day? AndI was like, probably. Like,
actually, like, work fulfillsme. I love working.
I love it. So when I'm bored, Iwork.

Rob Lee (45:58):
I dig it. I dig it.

Yeah. So

Rob Lee (46:00):
here's the last one. And because, you know, it's sort
of this this cycle. Right? Wherewe we touched on a little bit
here about the sort of you havethese wins of, like, I made this
work. I'm really excited forthis piece.
Or damn, I got rejected fromthat? Alright. Cool. So I'm
always curious on, like, some ofthe traits that folks have.

(46:21):
Usually, it's a question on howmany hours sleep, would you eat
less, things of that nature.
Self care. Right? But this is aquestion that's in that vein,
but different. What makes youhappy?

Oh, my God. Would it be so depressing if I
said nothing? I'm just kidding.I'm actually I probably am
clinically depressed, but Idon't know. My cats, I love my
cats.
I love animals. Absolutely. Igrew up in a county. I'm an
animal girly. I had a possum.
Who has a possum? Nobody.

Rob Lee (46:48):
Trax.

Right? Honestly, you look at me and
you're like, She's definitelyhad a pet possum. And I did.
That's true.

Rob Lee (46:55):
I'm like, How to meet those tracks.

Thank you. That's the best compliment I've
ever received. I love animals. Ithink animals are like I think
that animals teach us how tolove like the right way. Like I
don't think partners do and Idon't think parents do because
they all fall a little short.
Right? But I feel like animalsdo. They show us how to love
unconditionally and I'm gratefulfor all of them. I have a lot of
them and I love them all. I have10 lizards.

(47:19):
I know. 10. I just changed alltheir terrariums last night. It
took like 3 hours. 10.
I have hissing cockroaches too.Because they were gonna kill
them. Because they were gonnakill them. So I say, I'm not
even vegan. What do I care?
I give crickets to my gothos,but I'm like, not the roaches.
Tell me.

Rob Lee (47:36):
Not not the roaches.

So They're named after my parents. So I
have 5, and their names areDeborah, Debbie, David, Dave,
Deb.

Rob Lee (47:47):
That's just I mean, I have a cat. That's all I have.
Oh, no. And

You want a roach? No.

Rob Lee (47:52):
I I've had enough. I'm driven the projects. What do you
say? They were there. We had awhole, like

You didn't put him in a tree. It was like
Joe's apartment. Sweet potatoes.

Rob Lee (48:01):
Like Joe's apartment in TV movie from the nineties. Oh

my god. I'm crying.

Rob Lee (48:07):
So that's it. We have the clothes on roaches.

Yeah. Perfect. Actually, I have a one
request. I would like for you totake out every single time I
said that's cool.

Rob Lee (48:16):
No. I wanna actually have an echo behind it each
time.

I think I've said it like 10 times and I was
like, can you come up with adifferent catchphrase, Kayla? I
can't. I know. I cannot.

Rob Lee (48:25):
It's gonna stay in. There is no edits here. But what
I what I what would I do wannado?

Just loop it. Oh. That's cool. That's
cool. That's cool.

Rob Lee (48:32):
That's gonna be in front of the Ace More.

I hope so.

Rob Lee (48:35):
It's just like your goals and that's cool. Oh. If
you wake up to that part. Sothere's 2 things I wanna do as I
close out here. 1, I wanna thankyou for for spending some time.
We've been talking for like anhour.

I know.

Rob Lee (48:48):
And, 2, I wanna invite and encourage you to kinda plug
anything you want in these finalmoments. Website, social media,
any of the stuff that you wannacover. The floor is yours.

I don't know what what I would plug. I would
just say, like, check out theGossip Girl Collective. We have
a site. It's just gossip girl, Ithink, dot com. And then, my
Instagram handle is

Rob Lee (49:07):
at

sakatylinn. Sakatydot lynn. You're welcome.
Yes. It's my moniker.
I go by Katie Lynn because I waslike trying to keep my art
separate from my job, but likethat didn't work. That's great.

Rob Lee (49:20):
And there you have it folks. I wanna again thank
Caitlin Gill for coming on tothe podcast, and I'm Rob Lee
saying that there's art,culture, and community in and
around your neck of the woods.You just gotta look for it.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#9 – Can Mixed Media Challenge Gender Barriers? | Caitlin Gill