On September 17, 2024, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine released a report following a study of freight trains longer than 7,500 feet and their impacts on local communities. Requested by the U.S. Congress, the report recommends empowering regulatory agencies to address challenges such as safety concerns and traffic delays due to blocked crossings. Our host, TTI's Allan Rutter, served as one of twelve members on the consensus study panel that produced the report. He talks with David Willhauer, senior program officer with the Transportation Research Board, who was the project manager for the study. Listeners can find the report here.
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Allan Rutter (00:15):
Howdy, everyone.
Welcome to ThinkingTransportation, conversations
about how we get ourselves andthe stuff we need from one
place to another. I'm AllanRutter with the Texas A&M
Transportation Institute. Now,it's hard for our younger
listeners to conceive of this,but when I was coming of age in
Austin in the early 70s, theonly way for me and my friends
(00:37):
to listen to popular music waseither by buying a
record--which of course are nowcoming back in vogue--or by
listening to AM radio. One ofthe prominent groups I heard on
KTSA out of San Antonio was TheDoobie Brothers, a group formed
in 1970 in San Jose,California. Two big singles
came out of their 1973 album,The Captain and Me: the songs
(01:00):
"China Grove" and "Long TrainRunnin'." Today, long trains
are running much morefrequently and with greater
effects. We are joined today byDavid Willhauer, senior program
officer with the TransportationResearch Board, who is the
project manager for acongressionally requested study
from the National Academies onthe impacts of trains longer
(01:22):
than 7,500 feet. I was one ofthe 12 members of the consensus
study panel that worked on thereport. So, it's a double
pleasure to talk about thisreport after two years of work.
Dave, welcome to ThinkingTransportation.
David Willhauer (01:36):
Thanks, Al, for having me on.
Allan Rutter (01:39):
So, David, we're recording this episode just
days after the release of thereport titled "Long Freight
Trains (01:45):
Ensuring Safe Operations, Mitigating Adverse
Impacts." Now, we'll talk aboutthis report, but first tell our
listeners a short version ofyour journey that brought you
to the Transportation ResearchBoard to manage this and other
reports.
David Willhauer (02:02):
I just got hired by the Transportation
Research Board, and this studywas being proposed and I have a
freight and rail background.
So, it was a logical fit tohave me work on this study.
Congress wanted them to standup a committee through the
National Academies on theimpacts of trains longer than
7,500 feet. And our charge wasto put that committee together
(02:25):
and to develop a report andmake recommendations back to
Congress. That's essentiallywhat consensus and advisory
studies are. And, so, Congressasked the Federal Railroad
Administration to contract withour agency, and that's how it
got started.
Allan Rutter (02:41):
So now you mentioned "consensus study."
What does that term mean to theNational Academies?
David Willhauer (02:48):
So, a consensus study is a study
that's organized in order tohave a diverse group of experts
work together and evaluaterecommendations to reach
consensus on a particulartopic. Committee members are
briefed by experts of all kindsto learn about the topic and
deliberate with theseprofessionals in the early
(03:11):
stages of the study. And thenthey start to meet in closed
sessions to then deliberatewith each other and understand
the statement of task and havediscussions about how to
respond to the statement oftask and develop
recommendations in the report.
And naturally, a diverse groupof experts don't always agree
(03:31):
on everything. So, there's ahealthy debate that occurs
along the way, and we circleback with experts when we have
questions about certain aspectsof the study. The reason these
are conducted in closed sessionis because, if we revealed any
preliminary findings along theway, it wouldn't be fair to the
process because committeemembers need to be free to
change their minds and alsodeliberate with their
(03:54):
colleagues. The goal is toreach consensus on
recommendations and presentthose to the sponsor and to
Congress.
Allan Rutter (04:03):
So "consensus" is consensus of the committee
members, not consensus of anindustry as a whole?
David Willhauer (04:08):
Yes.
Allan Rutter (04:09):
So, you've spoken about a committee. Who's on
that committee, other than me,and how is it created?
David Willhauer (04:17):
So, the way we create these committees is to
ensure that we have a diversebackground of representation
from railroad experts. Thestatement of task also had some
pretty technical informationabout train operations work .
So, we reached out to formerrailroad professionals. We're
(04:37):
not able to enlist members whoare currently employed by our
railroad or the railroadindustry, and, therefore, we
have to usually seek outrailroad professionals who may
be retired or no longer workingfor a railroad. And then,
because highway rail -gradecrossings were a part of the
statement of task , we wantedto reach out to state municipal
(05:00):
officials who have experiencewith highway rail -grade
crossings. And we wantedperspectives from federal,
state agencies. The federalagency that sponsored the study
was the Federal RailroadAdministration. So, because
they were the sponsor, theycouldn't be on the committee,
but we have staterepresentation, and we also
(05:20):
want diverse representationfrom different parts of the
United States and individualswith diverse backgrounds.
Allan Rutter (05:27):
And my initial reaction was a little bit like
Groucho Marx, who once resignedfrom a Hollywood club by
telegram saying, "I don't wannabelong to any club who would
accept me as a member." But howdid you and the committee go
about doing their work? Talk alittle bit about who the
committee consulted.
David Willhauer (05:45):
Our first audience that we felt would be
the most important tounderstand long-train operation
was, of course, the Class Irailroads that operate long
trains. And so, we invited allsix Class I railroads to
present to the committee, andwe asked them specifically to
talk about their long-trainoperations, to talk about how
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they handle grade crossings,blocked crossings, and occupied
crossings, and how they handleinteractions with passenger
rail service. And so we gavethem an agenda, if you will, to
present to us--so it would be aconsistent message from all the
railroads. And, in addition tothe railroad operations, we
heard from the Association ofAmerican Railroads and from
(06:28):
labor union representativenational groups representing
locomotives, engineerdispatchers, and train car men
to understand how rail workerswork with long trains and some
of the challenges theyencounter operating long trains
and dispatching long trainsand, in particular, inspecting
long trains, particularly inthe field. And we heard from
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shipping organizations tounderstand how shippers relate
to long trains. We assembled agrade-crossing panel of
representatives from theFederal Railroad
Administration, the FederalHighway Administration, from a
state development commission,and local elected officials to
understand how grade crossingsimpact their communities. And
(07:12):
then in particular, we thoughtit would be helpful to go to
Chicago, the epicenter oflong-train operations within
the United States and be upclose and personal what the
belt railway looks likeoperating manifest trains in
and out of Chicago every day.
And while we visited Chicago,we heard from local officials,
we heard from representativesfrom the Metropolitan Planning
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Organization in Chicago andlearned quite a bit about that
operation.
Allan Rutter (07:40):
So, about how long did that information
development process startbefore the report actually
starts taking shape ?
David Willhauer (07:48):
So, we spent the fall pulling the committee
together in 2022, and then thefirst half of 2023 was really
dedicated to what we call thediscovery process--information
gathering, factfinding. Weasked for some data from the
railroads. We collected datafrom publicly available
sources, we conducted aliterature review and we
(08:12):
studied all that we could aboutlong-train operations. And
because long trains requireconnecting cars with multiple
locomotives in the trade ,there's a lot of technology
that's used to operate longtrains. And that technology has
gotten quite sophisticated overthe years with the development
of communication systems,engineering assist systems to
(08:32):
allow the engineers to controlthe train, electronics that
control dynamic braking as wellas throttle controls. So, we
dedicated a whole meeting totechnology and invited
representatives from the majorbrake companies that work with
the railroads and withtechnology experts to
understand how those systemswork and to ask questions about
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what happens when an engineerhas to drive the trains
themselves. One of the things Ilearned from this study is that
the engineering assist systemsare quite sophisticated, and
they operate the trainremotely, and engineers are
standing by in case the systemhas to turn the operation back
over to the engineer. So,that's quite a dynamic process
(09:16):
of operating these trains .
Allan Rutter (09:19):
About how long did the report preparation take
place and how were committeemembers involved?
David Willhauer (09:25):
We prepared the report along the way, if
you will. We did a lot ofwriting in the discovery
process to understand some ofthese concepts, and we learned
that we needed to basicallydevelop a chapter dedicated to
technology, a chapter dedicatedto railroad operations and
safety, and a chapter dedicatedto some of the public impacts
of long trains, like thehighway rail-grade crossing
(09:48):
issue conflict with passengerrail operations. And then,
finally, there was a charge forus to also understand the
impacts of greenhouse gasemission. So we had an
environmental chapter as well.
So these chapters started to bedeveloped over the summer and
fall of 2023. And it wasn'tuntil the end of 2023 that we
really had the makings of thedraft report assembled.
Allan Rutter (10:13):
So now, describe for our listeners the
independent review process thatthe National Academies does for
this kind of study.
David Willhauer (10:22):
Once the report is put together in draft
form, we assemble another panelof independent reviewers. We
have a little bit moreflexibility in who we select to
review the report because anindependent committee can
include representatives who areeither working with a railroad
or from a railroadorganization. And since we have
(10:45):
both US and Canadian railroads,we wanted to make sure we had
both US and Canadian committeemembers and, similarly, US and
Canadian reviewers. So, wereached out and asked people to
review the report over about athree-week timeframe. And so,
these reviewers look criticallyat the report and make comments
(11:07):
about the veracity of the data,about the accuracy of the
report, about how well it'swritten, about whether our
concepts were thought through.
And some of our analysisrequired a methodology that,
when we looked at long-trainoperations, we looked at some
publicly available data and didsome analysis that required
(11:28):
review. And, in the end, theyprovide their comments, and we
review all those comments verycarefully and respond to all of
them. So it's a very rigorousprocess.
Allan Rutter (11:39):
Yeah, it surprised me being on the
inside of this, just howrigorous that was and the
extent to which the committeemembers themselves were engaged
in report production. I thinkwhat it results in is--in the
terms of a document--one, it'sa little fuller. There's a lot
more to it. Two, it's distinctfrom sponsored research,
(12:02):
particularly if it's done by aconsulting firm on behalf of a
company. There's a lot moreinternal review process to it.
So once the product is outthere, there's a lot more
background to it.
David Willhauer (12:15):
Well , that's why Congress established the
National Academies to do theseconsensus studies in the first
place. Congress was looking fora non-political independent
entity that could assemble agroup of experts to look at a
particular problem and come upwith a solution. There were a
series of long-trainderailments that occurred
during the course of the study,most notably the derailment in
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East Palestine, Ohio, brought alot of attention to the topic
of long-train operations, andthere were several other
incidents that we reviewed thatwere the same makeup of
long-train operations andparticularly "manifest
trains"--the trains that havedifferent size cars and
different length cars that areoperating from yard to yard
across the country--picking upand dropping off cars along the
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way. Those trains in particularhave unique challenges in
operating over undulatingterrain with multiple
locomotives spread throughoutthe [length] to control the
train . And we looked inparticular at those types of
operations.
Allan Rutter (13:17):
Well, that's a good segue to talk about the
report itself, and we'll talk alittle more about the
distinctions between the kindsof trains. First, is there a
definition of what a long trainis?
David Willhauer (13:29):
Well, that's a good question because that's in
our charge, right? Our chargewas to look at trains that were
impacted --trains that were7,500 feet--and we reviewed a
study that was done by theFederal Railroad Administration
on the stakeholder perceptionof long trains. And in that
study, they could find nouniform definition of what
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constitutes a "long train." Sothe 7,500 feet comes from the
Association of AmericanRailroads' ( AAR) standard of a
150-car test rack with 50 feetper car that they use to test
brakes in Rebo , Colorado. Andwe also discovered that trains
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were actually being operatedthat were much longer than
that. And we tried to get somesense of how many of these
types of trains were inoperation around the US and
Canada. But we learned the morewe got into it that, trains can
be controlled over that numberif you have the right number of
distributed power locomotivesand you use proper train
(14:32):
handling and trend makeuptechniques. And so we didn't
choose in the end to recommendlimiting train length in our
study.
Allan Rutter (14:41):
Which brings up a question that's come up when
I've discussed the report. Arelong trains safe or unsafe, or
do we know anything about that?
David Willhauer (14:52):
Well, long trains are operated with more
and more cars and more and morelocomotives. And if they're
assembled correctly and they'reoperated correctly, and when
they pick up and drop off cars,they continue to maintain the
same rules of making up theirtrains, they can be operated
safely. But when we looked intothe derailment data, that there
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was a preponderance ofderailments that were
associated with longer trainswhen it came to train makeup
and handling and how engineersare operating those trains.
Allan Rutter (15:26):
That gets me into a sort of distinct question.
One of the things the reportcame to a conclusion on,
particularly about long-trainoperations, is there's a
distinction between what'scalled a "unit train" and a
"manifest train." Would youdescribe for our listeners what
the differences are?
David Willhauer (15:44):
Well, a "unit train" operates from an origin
to a destination withoutstopping, with a set number of
cars that are the same size andthe same weight. So, a coal
train or a lumber train or acrude oil train would be
considered a unit train becauseit operates from one part of
the country to another withoutstopping and dropping off or
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picking up any additional cars.
Whereas, a "manifest train"differs in that it's made up of
a variety of cars, a variety ofweights and sizes, and they
stop from yard to yard alongtheir journey and pick up and
drop off cars. So the trainmakeup changes each time they
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pick up and set out more cars.
And then an "intermodal train"has intermodal containers on
cars that are also differentweights and different sizes,
but they're primarilyintermodal containers as
opposed to "general frame ."So, those are the three types
of long train .
Allan Rutter (16:46):
So, in a statement reacting to the
report, the Association ofAmerican Railroads stated that
"any effort to impose aprescriptive train-length limit
would be both irresponsible andunfounded." I'm not hearing the
study had actually recommendedany length limits.
David Willhauer (17:04):
That's correct. We didn't recommend
any train length, nor did wesay that trains should be
limited in their length; butthey need to be part of the
railroad's risk reductionprogram because they inherently
have operating challengesbecause of their length that
require proper placement ofcars, proper train handling,
(17:24):
and training the locomotiveengineers to operate long
trains. And those are thethings we focused on because
those are the things thatinherently create an additional
risk of operations. And sorather than focusing on the
length, we focused on ensuringthat safe operations were still
maintained regardless of trainlength; that they would train
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engineers to be able to controlthese multiple locomotives
using the engineer assistprograms; and the conductors to
be able to keep track of theircargoes and respond to train
emergency as they occurunderway . If a train breaks
apart underway , for example,and they have to replace a
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knuckle or stop the train andmake some repairs, that they
can do so safely and be able toreassemble the train and get to
their destination safely.
Allan Rutter (18:19):
I think one of the interesting things about
having Canadian representationon our report was that their
safety board and the people whokeep an eye on what's going on
in railroads in Canada, theyhad an awful lot of background
on this sort of safetymanagement-system risk
reduction, which is a lot ofthe recommendations that the
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committee made about manifesttrain operations need to be
considered within thisframework. Talk a little bit
about how the committee madeits recommendations around risk
production and safetymanagement systems.
David Willhauer (18:56):
Well, you're right in that the Canadian
railroads were the first tobegin operating longer trains
back in 2018, 2019 timeframe.
And as they were operatinglonger trains, they recognized
that they needed to buildlonger sidings. They needed to
enhance their braking systems,particularly in colder
temperatures because as youincrease the length of the
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train, it makes it morechallenging to make sure that
the air that controls the airbrakes , the air is propagated
through the length of thetrain. The longer the train,
the longer distance that theair has to propagate through
the train, and in coldtemperatures that can be even
harder to operate air brakes .
And so Canadian railroads cameup with the ability to
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sometimes put dedicated brakecars together that had
compressors in those cars tooperate trains if they got
longer. And as they got longer,they recognized that they
needed to embrace the safetymanagement system in responding
to their Rail Safety Act. Andwhat they ended up doing is
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developing what I would call arobust safety management system
that recognized the need tostudy the risks of additional
train length on operations inthe US. The FRA also responded
by developing a safetymanagement system in the form
of a risk-reduction program,but it was a more streamlined
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version and didn't initiallyrecognize the same requirements
for quantitative risk analysisuntil much later. And we
believe that railroads likeother high-risk
industries--such as offshoreoil and gas operation, pipeline
operations, airlineoperations--should really
embrace a full-fledged safetymanagement system that takes
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into consideration risk factorsand develops quantitative risk
assessments to make sure thatthese operations are done
safely. And so that was animportant part of our
recommendation, and we madesome suggestions about what
elements should go into such arisk-reduction plan for
controlling long trains withproper makeup , proper train
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handling, and recognizing thatthese would be important
considerations in their claims.
Allan Rutter (21:18):
What else did the committee have to say about
factors like communicationsystems?
David Willhauer (21:23):
So, all trains require communication between
crew members, the locomotiveengineer has to communicate to
the conductor when they'repushing back into a yard and
picking up cars. And, initiallythese were done with hand
signals and over the yearsthey've been switching to radio
operations with handheldradios. And as the train length
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increases, the reception ofthose radios became more and
more difficult. And we believethat's something that needs to
be addressed as well. It'simportant that they are able to
communicate with each other.
Allan Rutter (21:56):
One of the things our listeners can probably
appreciate is, if you've got atrain that's a mile and a half
long and it's coming in and outof a siding or going into a
switch and the engineer is inthe cab controlling the train
and the conductor is at theback of the train, making sure
that the switching is doneright... If you're a mile and a
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half away, you gotta make surethat your radios work.
David Willhauer (22:20):
Exactly. The distributed power locomotives
in the train are a way to serveas repeaters to get the signal
through the train operations.
But radio communication isimportant too. And some
railroads are also working toensure that repeaters are used
as they're trying to make surethat radio communication is
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being done correctly. And we ,we think there's some
opportunity for improvementthere as well.
Allan Rutter (22:47):
I think one of the things I remember hearing
is that United States is apretty large place, and long
trains that are operating--sayin Arizona and Nevada,
relatively flat territorystraight, not a whole lot of
geographic differences. That'sdifferent than a long train
operating in Ohio orPennsylvania over the
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Appalachians, which is lots ofhills. I mean, it's not the
Rockies, but you've got someundulating grades there that
you could have a train wherethe engineer is on one hill,
and his train is going up anddown at least another two
hills.
David Willhauer (23:25):
That's right.
And the locomotives have to beable to communicate with each
other as well. And they'redesigned to be able to operate
either in synchronization orasynchronization so that
there's ways to control thetrain. And then, when those
trains have to be inspected,it's clear that the longer the
train, the more distance thatcrew members have to travel to
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inspect those trains. And sothat means they sometimes have
to walk the length of thetrain. And that has increased
the time it takes to inspecttrains.
Allan Rutter (23:55):
Well, it also seems to have some impacts on
length of the trains and howthey come through crossings,
which would be my next subject,the blocking of crossings. Was
the committee able to reach anyconclusions about the
connection between train lengthand frequency and duration of
crossing blockage?
David Willhauer (24:13):
No. The data is really not available to do
so, and we learned very quicklythat even though there's some
parts of the country wherethere are really chronic
examples of block crossingssuch as Houston and Chicago and
areas near large rail yards, itcan be any length train that
blocks a crossing. It can be ashort train or a long train. We
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found examples all around thecountry where it was really a
function of the geography ofthe town and how the railroads
operated in their yards inthose towns that block certain
crossings. And it's developmentoccurring across the United
States. More and moredevelopment comes around rail
yards, and we find thesubdivisions of communities
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being built adjacent to railoperations, and it has an
increasing impact on how thesecrossings get blocked. And when
it comes to responding toemergencies , some towns can be
bifurcated, completely by astopped train that would
prevent first responders fromgetting from one side of the
town to the other. Some townshave invested in technologies
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to actually provide amonitoring system so that they
can alert both motorists andfirst responders to a potential
blocked crossing and give theman opportunity to take an
alternative route or perhapschange their plans for that
particular trip. And then othercommunities are taking more
long-term approaches to eithereliminate the crossings or look
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at crossing-grade separationprojects, which tend to be
quite expensive and verydifficult to do over multiple
years. It was a challengingtopic because it's something
that's happening around the USbut we didn't really have good
sense of just where and howmuch it was occurring based on
the inability to get the datafor that.
Allan Rutter (25:58):
Yeah, grade-crossing safety and
related issues are subjectsthat TTI has studied
extensively for decades. One ofthe things that was clarified
when we conducted the study isa legal determination that
regulating block crossings is amatter of federal jurisdiction,
not state laws or localordinances. Early in 2024, the
(26:20):
Supreme Court let stand anappellate court ruling that
blocked crossing statutes werepreempted by federal laws on
rail safety and rail economicregulation. Now, neither
Congress nor the FederalRailroad Administration has
entered that regulatory spacejust yet, but the courts have
determined that the feds ownthat space. The effect of that
(26:42):
for me is a bit like a familythat owns a big lake house
owned by their grandparentsuntil the house is inherited by
one of the family members whochooses to keep the house
boarded up so that it can't beused by the family anymore. The
heir may not use the house, butno one can.
David Willhauer (26:58):
Well , you're absolutely right. The states
and local jurisdiction used tobe able to work out solutions
with railroads and even finerailroads for blocked
crossings. But recent courtcases have resulted in that no
longer being possible. So itreally does need to be a
federal solution. And while theSurface Transportation Board is
currently reviewing differentrailroad cases, we believe that
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the Federal RailroadAdministration should really be
in a position to require therailroads to supply the data
that would illustrate whichcrossings are being blocked the
most, and to shine the light,if you will, on those
communities where the problemsare the worst, and allow those
communities to work closelywith the railroads and come up
with a solution. And, informedby that data, they can make
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decisions on what can be done.
And the railroads can in turnconsider how they may change
operations to reduce thosecrossing delays because we've
learned that they're able tochange operations when needed
to to reduce blocked crossingoccurrences. And we believe
that the Federal RailroadAdministration is gonna need to
get involved because there willlikely be necessary to have
(28:10):
some penalty for not providingthat information in order to
provide incentives for therailroads to provide that data.
And because the SurfaceTransportation Board also is
involved in railroad disputeand so forth, whatever the
Federal Railroad Administrationdoes needs to be allied with
what the Surface TransportationBoard is doing as well.
Allan Rutter (28:33):
So, more data, a little more coordination, not
that it gets any simpler. Thefinal subject of the report is
the effects of long trains onAmtrak's inner-city passenger
trains that operate on freightrail lines. What kinds of
issues did the committeediscover and what does the
committee recommend be doneabout those conflicts?
David Willhauer (28:55):
The representatives from Amtrak
presented to the committee in avery comprehensive summary of
situations that have occurredover the years with delays to
passenger trains due to freightrail operations such as long
trains operating in areas wherethe sidings are not long enough
to allow passenger trains topass. And Amtrak has had
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statutory preference to operatepassenger-rail service since
its inception, but it hasn'talways been enforced. And with
regard to long trains, the onlyreal enforcement that we felt
we could justify was a freightrailroad operates a long train
in a subdivision where theirsidings are not long enough to
(29:42):
be able to accommodate apassenger train such as an
Amtrak train to pass thatfreight train. And so when it
comes to meets and passes, wefelt like that was a logical
place to focus. There wereother examples that Amtrak
provided about how there was anincrease in broken knuckles
over the period of time sincelong trains have been operating
(30:05):
and, incidents where crews haveto be recrewed and they run out
of hours of service becausethey've spent the whole day
operating a longer train thattakes longer to get where it
needs to go. All freight trainsexperience troubles with
recrewing and broken knuckles.
So, we focused primarily on theareas where rail sidings were
not sufficient to allow passingpassenger trains.
Allan Rutter (30:29):
And just for our listeners who are not foamers,
broken knuckles refers to thecouplers that connect one car
to another, where they sort ofwrap around each other. And
it's that connection, whichlooks like hands connecting to
each other that we describe asthe broken knuckle, right?
David Willhauer (30:47):
Yeah, that's right.
Allan Rutter (30:49):
Now, you and some of the committee members have
been able to brief this study'ssponsors that the Federal
Railroad Administration, andvisit with some congressional
staff in advance of the releaseof the report. What's been
their overall reaction to thereport?
David Willhauer (31:05):
Overall, it's been mixed because if you can
imagine, the congressionalrepresentatives have different
opinions about long-trainoperations and whether or not
there should be regulatoryaction for or against train
operations. So we had a livelydiscussion with our
congressional representativesabout the results of our report
(31:26):
and our recommendations, assome of the members were in
agreement with some of therecommendations and others were
not. Our sponsor was pleasedwith the report. There was also
the report where an opportunityfor them to review these
risk-reduction programs, andthis has been very much a work
(31:49):
in progress since the railroadsare not required to complete
their risk-reduction plans intheir entirety until 2025. So,
our recommendations were reallyfocused on what they should
look like when they'recompleted. And it was important
to recognize that the FederalRailroad Administration is
working closely with therailroads to audit those risk
(32:12):
reduction plans. That was apart of our conversation with
our sponsor. We also were ableto recognize that alongside
this study, the FederalRailroad Administration was
conducting some of their ownstudies on air brakes with
trains with 100 cars in lengthand 200 cars in length . And
they did both stationary andmoving tests of air brakes in a
(32:34):
comprehensive study that wasgoing alongside our study. So,
we were able to incorporate theresults of their study in ours.
They also completed a study onthe stakeholder perceptions of
longer trains and ourrecommendations regarding crew
training, and some of thechallenges of crews operating
(32:55):
long trains were echoing someof the findings that they
discovered in their studies onthe same topic. And so it was
an opportunity to recognizesome of the challenges of
long-train operations andpropose, we believe, some
solutions that will have animpact on ensuring their safe
operations in the future.
Allan Rutter (33:17):
Well, thanks again, David, for taking time
to visit with us about thisimportant report. Long-train
issues certainly affect Texascommunities given the number of
rail miles in our state and thefrequency of reports of blocked
crossing issues in Texas. Letme ask you the question we pose
to all of our podcast guests.
What is it that motivates youto show up to work every day ?
David Willhauer (33:40):
Well , thank you, Al. I'm challenged every
day by the complexities oftransportation puzzles, if you
will. We have a diversetransportation network, and
I've been studyingtransportation from maritime to
rail and transit and freightoperations my whole career. And
(34:01):
it's a challenging topic, andit requires understanding the
systems, but also being able toexplain it in developing
policies. And I'm continuallyimpressed with how my
colleagues work to solve theseproblems together. And at the
National Academies, we'reconstantly facing studies of
this kind where we have tofigure out how to solve
(34:22):
problems with some verytalented individuals and
committee members. And I enjoyworking with people on solving
problems and working throughsolutions and trying to make an
improvement every day.
Allan Rutter (34:35):
Well, it was a whole lot of fun working with
you on this report, and Ireally appreciate you spending
some time with us on thepodcast, helping our listeners
understand what the report isall about. Thanks again.
David Willhauer (34:47):
Thank you, Al . Thanks for serving on the
committee.
Allan Rutter (34:52):
Our nation's freight railroads are privately
owned and operated. Sometimestheir private-sector activities
can affect communities adjacentto rail lines. Economists call
these effects "externalities,"costs or benefits that affect a
third party not directlyinvolved in private-sector
transactions. Members ofCongress were concerned about
(35:15):
the externalities of long-trainoperations--safety risks,
blocked crossings. And delayedpassenger trains, and they
asked for this consensus studyto consider what the
externalities are and how theymight be mitigated. It's a
complicated set of issues, andthe recently released report
offers a thorough discussionabout what is known and what
(35:37):
more needs to be known aboutthe operations of long trains.
We hope today's discussionoffers insights into the study
and that it may encourage ourlisteners to read the report
for themselves. Thanks forlistening. Please take just a
minute to give us a review,subscribe, and share this
episode. And please join usnext time for another
(35:58):
conversation about gettingourselves and the stuff we need
from point A to point B.
Thinking Transportation is aproduction of the Texas A&M
Transportation Institute, amember of The Texas A&M
University System. The show isedited and produced by Chris
Porteau. I'm your host, AllanRutter. Thanks again for
(36:18):
listening. We'll see you nexttime .
Howdy, everyone.
Welcome to ThinkingTransportation, conversations
about how we get ourselves andthe stuff we need from one
place to another. I'm AllanRutter with the Texas A&M
Transportation Institute. Now,it's hard for our younger
listeners to conceive of this,but when I was coming of age in
Austin in the early 70s, theonly way for me and my friends
(00:37):
to listen to popular music waseither by buying a
record--which of course are nowcoming back in vogue--or by
listening to AM radio. One ofthe prominent groups I heard on
KTSA out of San Antonio was TheDoobie Brothers, a group formed
in 1970 in San Jose,California. Two big singles
came out of their 1973 album,The Captain and Me: the songs
(01:00):
"China Grove" and "Long TrainRunnin'." Today, long trains
are running much morefrequently and with greater
effects. We are joined today byDavid Willhauer, senior program
officer with the TransportationResearch Board, who is the
project manager for acongressionally requested study
from the National Academies onthe impacts of trains longer
(01:22):
than 7,500 feet. I was one ofthe 12 members of the consensus
study panel that worked on thereport. So, it's a double
pleasure to talk about thisreport after two years of work.
Dave, welcome to ThinkingTransportation.
David Willhauer (01:36):
Thanks, Al, for having me on.
Allan Rutter (01:39):
So, David, we're recording this episode just
days after the release of thereport titled "Long Freight
Trains (01:45):
Ensuring Safe Operations, Mitigating Adverse
Impacts." Now, we'll talk aboutthis report, but first tell our
listeners a short version ofyour journey that brought you
to the Transportation ResearchBoard to manage this and other
reports.
David Willhauer (02:02):
I just got hired by the Transportation
Research Board, and this studywas being proposed and I have a
freight and rail background.
So, it was a logical fit tohave me work on this study.
Congress wanted them to standup a committee through the
National Academies on theimpacts of trains longer than
7,500 feet. And our charge wasto put that committee together
(02:25):
and to develop a report andmake recommendations back to
Congress. That's essentiallywhat consensus and advisory
studies are. And, so, Congressasked the Federal Railroad
Administration to contract withour agency, and that's how it
got started.
Allan Rutter (02:41):
So now you mentioned "consensus study."
What does that term mean to theNational Academies?
David Willhauer (02:48):
So, a consensus study is a study
that's organized in order tohave a diverse group of experts
work together and evaluaterecommendations to reach
consensus on a particulartopic. Committee members are
briefed by experts of all kindsto learn about the topic and
deliberate with theseprofessionals in the early
(03:11):
stages of the study. And thenthey start to meet in closed
sessions to then deliberatewith each other and understand
the statement of task and havediscussions about how to
respond to the statement oftask and develop
recommendations in the report.
And naturally, a diverse groupof experts don't always agree
(03:31):
on everything. So, there's ahealthy debate that occurs
along the way, and we circleback with experts when we have
questions about certain aspectsof the study. The reason these
are conducted in closed sessionis because, if we revealed any
preliminary findings along theway, it wouldn't be fair to the
process because committeemembers need to be free to
change their minds and alsodeliberate with their
(03:54):
colleagues. The goal is toreach consensus on
recommendations and presentthose to the sponsor and to
Congress.
Allan Rutter (04:03):
So "consensus" is consensus of the committee
members, not consensus of anindustry as a whole?
David Willhauer (04:08):
Yes.
Allan Rutter (04:09):
So, you've spoken about a committee. Who's on
that committee, other than me,and how is it created?
David Willhauer (04:17):
So, the way we create these committees is to
ensure that we have a diversebackground of representation
from railroad experts. Thestatement of task also had some
pretty technical informationabout train operations work .
So, we reached out to formerrailroad professionals. We're
(04:37):
not able to enlist members whoare currently employed by our
railroad or the railroadindustry, and, therefore, we
have to usually seek outrailroad professionals who may
be retired or no longer workingfor a railroad. And then,
because highway rail -gradecrossings were a part of the
statement of task , we wantedto reach out to state municipal
(05:00):
officials who have experiencewith highway rail -grade
crossings. And we wantedperspectives from federal,
state agencies. The federalagency that sponsored the study
was the Federal RailroadAdministration. So, because
they were the sponsor, theycouldn't be on the committee,
but we have staterepresentation, and we also
(05:20):
want diverse representationfrom different parts of the
United States and individualswith diverse backgrounds.
Allan Rutter (05:27):
And my initial reaction was a little bit like
Groucho Marx, who once resignedfrom a Hollywood club by
telegram saying, "I don't wannabelong to any club who would
accept me as a member." But howdid you and the committee go
about doing their work? Talk alittle bit about who the
committee consulted.
David Willhauer (05:45):
Our first audience that we felt would be
the most important tounderstand long-train operation
was, of course, the Class Irailroads that operate long
trains. And so, we invited allsix Class I railroads to
present to the committee, andwe asked them specifically to
talk about their long-trainoperations, to talk about how
(06:05):
they handle grade crossings,blocked crossings, and occupied
crossings, and how they handleinteractions with passenger
rail service. And so we gavethem an agenda, if you will, to
present to us--so it would be aconsistent message from all the
railroads. And, in addition tothe railroad operations, we
heard from the Association ofAmerican Railroads and from
(06:28):
labor union representativenational groups representing
locomotives, engineerdispatchers, and train car men
to understand how rail workerswork with long trains and some
of the challenges theyencounter operating long trains
and dispatching long trainsand, in particular, inspecting
long trains, particularly inthe field. And we heard from
(06:51):
shipping organizations tounderstand how shippers relate
to long trains. We assembled agrade-crossing panel of
representatives from theFederal Railroad
Administration, the FederalHighway Administration, from a
state development commission,and local elected officials to
understand how grade crossingsimpact their communities. And
(07:12):
then in particular, we thoughtit would be helpful to go to
Chicago, the epicenter oflong-train operations within
the United States and be upclose and personal what the
belt railway looks likeoperating manifest trains in
and out of Chicago every day.
And while we visited Chicago,we heard from local officials,
we heard from representativesfrom the Metropolitan Planning
(07:34):
Organization in Chicago andlearned quite a bit about that
operation.
Allan Rutter (07:40):
So, about how long did that information
development process startbefore the report actually
starts taking shape ?
David Willhauer (07:48):
So, we spent the fall pulling the committee
together in 2022, and then thefirst half of 2023 was really
dedicated to what we call thediscovery process--information
gathering, factfinding. Weasked for some data from the
railroads. We collected datafrom publicly available
sources, we conducted aliterature review and we
(08:12):
studied all that we could aboutlong-train operations. And
because long trains requireconnecting cars with multiple
locomotives in the trade ,there's a lot of technology
that's used to operate longtrains. And that technology has
gotten quite sophisticated overthe years with the development
of communication systems,engineering assist systems to
(08:32):
allow the engineers to controlthe train, electronics that
control dynamic braking as wellas throttle controls. So, we
dedicated a whole meeting totechnology and invited
representatives from the majorbrake companies that work with
the railroads and withtechnology experts to
understand how those systemswork and to ask questions about
(08:54):
what happens when an engineerhas to drive the trains
themselves. One of the things Ilearned from this study is that
the engineering assist systemsare quite sophisticated, and
they operate the trainremotely, and engineers are
standing by in case the systemhas to turn the operation back
over to the engineer. So,that's quite a dynamic process
(09:16):
of operating these trains .
Allan Rutter (09:19):
About how long did the report preparation take
place and how were committeemembers involved?
David Willhauer (09:25):
We prepared the report along the way, if
you will. We did a lot ofwriting in the discovery
process to understand some ofthese concepts, and we learned
that we needed to basicallydevelop a chapter dedicated to
technology, a chapter dedicatedto railroad operations and
safety, and a chapter dedicatedto some of the public impacts
of long trains, like thehighway rail-grade crossing
(09:48):
issue conflict with passengerrail operations. And then,
finally, there was a charge forus to also understand the
impacts of greenhouse gasemission. So we had an
environmental chapter as well.
So these chapters started to bedeveloped over the summer and
fall of 2023. And it wasn'tuntil the end of 2023 that we
really had the makings of thedraft report assembled.
Allan Rutter (10:13):
So now, describe for our listeners the
independent review process thatthe National Academies does for
this kind of study.
David Willhauer (10:22):
Once the report is put together in draft
form, we assemble another panelof independent reviewers. We
have a little bit moreflexibility in who we select to
review the report because anindependent committee can
include representatives who areeither working with a railroad
or from a railroadorganization. And since we have
(10:45):
both US and Canadian railroads,we wanted to make sure we had
both US and Canadian committeemembers and, similarly, US and
Canadian reviewers. So, wereached out and asked people to
review the report over about athree-week timeframe. And so,
these reviewers look criticallyat the report and make comments
(11:07):
about the veracity of the data,about the accuracy of the
report, about how well it'swritten, about whether our
concepts were thought through.
And some of our analysisrequired a methodology that,
when we looked at long-trainoperations, we looked at some
publicly available data and didsome analysis that required
(11:28):
review. And, in the end, theyprovide their comments, and we
review all those comments verycarefully and respond to all of
them. So it's a very rigorousprocess.
Allan Rutter (11:39):
Yeah, it surprised me being on the
inside of this, just howrigorous that was and the
extent to which the committeemembers themselves were engaged
in report production. I thinkwhat it results in is--in the
terms of a document--one, it'sa little fuller. There's a lot
more to it. Two, it's distinctfrom sponsored research,
(12:02):
particularly if it's done by aconsulting firm on behalf of a
company. There's a lot moreinternal review process to it.
So once the product is outthere, there's a lot more
background to it.
David Willhauer (12:15):
Well , that's why Congress established the
National Academies to do theseconsensus studies in the first
place. Congress was looking fora non-political independent
entity that could assemble agroup of experts to look at a
particular problem and come upwith a solution. There were a
series of long-trainderailments that occurred
during the course of the study,most notably the derailment in
(12:38):
East Palestine, Ohio, brought alot of attention to the topic
of long-train operations, andthere were several other
incidents that we reviewed thatwere the same makeup of
long-train operations andparticularly "manifest
trains"--the trains that havedifferent size cars and
different length cars that areoperating from yard to yard
across the country--picking upand dropping off cars along the
(13:01):
way. Those trains in particularhave unique challenges in
operating over undulatingterrain with multiple
locomotives spread throughoutthe [length] to control the
train . And we looked inparticular at those types of
operations.
Allan Rutter (13:17):
Well, that's a good segue to talk about the
report itself, and we'll talk alittle more about the
distinctions between the kindsof trains. First, is there a
definition of what a long trainis?
David Willhauer (13:29):
Well, that's a good question because that's in
our charge, right? Our chargewas to look at trains that were
impacted --trains that were7,500 feet--and we reviewed a
study that was done by theFederal Railroad Administration
on the stakeholder perceptionof long trains. And in that
study, they could find nouniform definition of what
(13:49):
constitutes a "long train." Sothe 7,500 feet comes from the
Association of AmericanRailroads' ( AAR) standard of a
150-car test rack with 50 feetper car that they use to test
brakes in Rebo , Colorado. Andwe also discovered that trains
(14:10):
were actually being operatedthat were much longer than
that. And we tried to get somesense of how many of these
types of trains were inoperation around the US and
Canada. But we learned the morewe got into it that, trains can
be controlled over that numberif you have the right number of
distributed power locomotivesand you use proper train
(14:32):
handling and trend makeuptechniques. And so we didn't
choose in the end to recommendlimiting train length in our
study.
Allan Rutter (14:41):
Which brings up a question that's come up when
I've discussed the report. Arelong trains safe or unsafe, or
do we know anything about that?
David Willhauer (14:52):
Well, long trains are operated with more
and more cars and more and morelocomotives. And if they're
assembled correctly and they'reoperated correctly, and when
they pick up and drop off cars,they continue to maintain the
same rules of making up theirtrains, they can be operated
safely. But when we looked intothe derailment data, that there
(15:14):
was a preponderance ofderailments that were
associated with longer trainswhen it came to train makeup
and handling and how engineersare operating those trains.
Allan Rutter (15:26):
That gets me into a sort of distinct question.
One of the things the reportcame to a conclusion on,
particularly about long-trainoperations, is there's a
distinction between what'scalled a "unit train" and a
"manifest train." Would youdescribe for our listeners what
the differences are?
David Willhauer (15:44):
Well, a "unit train" operates from an origin
to a destination withoutstopping, with a set number of
cars that are the same size andthe same weight. So, a coal
train or a lumber train or acrude oil train would be
considered a unit train becauseit operates from one part of
the country to another withoutstopping and dropping off or
(16:05):
picking up any additional cars.
Whereas, a "manifest train"differs in that it's made up of
a variety of cars, a variety ofweights and sizes, and they
stop from yard to yard alongtheir journey and pick up and
drop off cars. So the trainmakeup changes each time they
(16:26):
pick up and set out more cars.
And then an "intermodal train"has intermodal containers on
cars that are also differentweights and different sizes,
but they're primarilyintermodal containers as
opposed to "general frame ."So, those are the three types
of long train .
Allan Rutter (16:46):
So, in a statement reacting to the
report, the Association ofAmerican Railroads stated that
"any effort to impose aprescriptive train-length limit
would be both irresponsible andunfounded." I'm not hearing the
study had actually recommendedany length limits.
David Willhauer (17:04):
That's correct. We didn't recommend
any train length, nor did wesay that trains should be
limited in their length; butthey need to be part of the
railroad's risk reductionprogram because they inherently
have operating challengesbecause of their length that
require proper placement ofcars, proper train handling,
(17:24):
and training the locomotiveengineers to operate long
trains. And those are thethings we focused on because
those are the things thatinherently create an additional
risk of operations. And sorather than focusing on the
length, we focused on ensuringthat safe operations were still
maintained regardless of trainlength; that they would train
(17:47):
engineers to be able to controlthese multiple locomotives
using the engineer assistprograms; and the conductors to
be able to keep track of theircargoes and respond to train
emergency as they occurunderway . If a train breaks
apart underway , for example,and they have to replace a
(18:07):
knuckle or stop the train andmake some repairs, that they
can do so safely and be able toreassemble the train and get to
their destination safely.
Allan Rutter (18:19):
I think one of the interesting things about
having Canadian representationon our report was that their
safety board and the people whokeep an eye on what's going on
in railroads in Canada, theyhad an awful lot of background
on this sort of safetymanagement-system risk
reduction, which is a lot ofthe recommendations that the
(18:40):
committee made about manifesttrain operations need to be
considered within thisframework. Talk a little bit
about how the committee madeits recommendations around risk
production and safetymanagement systems.
David Willhauer (18:56):
Well, you're right in that the Canadian
railroads were the first tobegin operating longer trains
back in 2018, 2019 timeframe.
And as they were operatinglonger trains, they recognized
that they needed to buildlonger sidings. They needed to
enhance their braking systems,particularly in colder
temperatures because as youincrease the length of the
(19:18):
train, it makes it morechallenging to make sure that
the air that controls the airbrakes , the air is propagated
through the length of thetrain. The longer the train,
the longer distance that theair has to propagate through
the train, and in coldtemperatures that can be even
harder to operate air brakes .
And so Canadian railroads cameup with the ability to
(19:40):
sometimes put dedicated brakecars together that had
compressors in those cars tooperate trains if they got
longer. And as they got longer,they recognized that they
needed to embrace the safetymanagement system in responding
to their Rail Safety Act. Andwhat they ended up doing is
(20:01):
developing what I would call arobust safety management system
that recognized the need tostudy the risks of additional
train length on operations inthe US. The FRA also responded
by developing a safetymanagement system in the form
of a risk-reduction program,but it was a more streamlined
(20:23):
version and didn't initiallyrecognize the same requirements
for quantitative risk analysisuntil much later. And we
believe that railroads likeother high-risk
industries--such as offshoreoil and gas operation, pipeline
operations, airlineoperations--should really
embrace a full-fledged safetymanagement system that takes
(20:47):
into consideration risk factorsand develops quantitative risk
assessments to make sure thatthese operations are done
safely. And so that was animportant part of our
recommendation, and we madesome suggestions about what
elements should go into such arisk-reduction plan for
controlling long trains withproper makeup , proper train
(21:11):
handling, and recognizing thatthese would be important
considerations in their claims.
Allan Rutter (21:18):
What else did the committee have to say about
factors like communicationsystems?
David Willhauer (21:23):
So, all trains require communication between
crew members, the locomotiveengineer has to communicate to
the conductor when they'repushing back into a yard and
picking up cars. And, initiallythese were done with hand
signals and over the yearsthey've been switching to radio
operations with handheldradios. And as the train length
(21:43):
increases, the reception ofthose radios became more and
more difficult. And we believethat's something that needs to
be addressed as well. It'simportant that they are able to
communicate with each other.
Allan Rutter (21:56):
One of the things our listeners can probably
appreciate is, if you've got atrain that's a mile and a half
long and it's coming in and outof a siding or going into a
switch and the engineer is inthe cab controlling the train
and the conductor is at theback of the train, making sure
that the switching is doneright... If you're a mile and a
(22:17):
half away, you gotta make surethat your radios work.
David Willhauer (22:20):
Exactly. The distributed power locomotives
in the train are a way to serveas repeaters to get the signal
through the train operations.
But radio communication isimportant too. And some
railroads are also working toensure that repeaters are used
as they're trying to make surethat radio communication is
(22:41):
being done correctly. And we ,we think there's some
opportunity for improvementthere as well.
Allan Rutter (22:47):
I think one of the things I remember hearing
is that United States is apretty large place, and long
trains that are operating--sayin Arizona and Nevada,
relatively flat territorystraight, not a whole lot of
geographic differences. That'sdifferent than a long train
operating in Ohio orPennsylvania over the
(23:08):
Appalachians, which is lots ofhills. I mean, it's not the
Rockies, but you've got someundulating grades there that
you could have a train wherethe engineer is on one hill,
and his train is going up anddown at least another two
hills.
David Willhauer (23:25):
That's right.
And the locomotives have to beable to communicate with each
other as well. And they'redesigned to be able to operate
either in synchronization orasynchronization so that
there's ways to control thetrain. And then, when those
trains have to be inspected,it's clear that the longer the
train, the more distance thatcrew members have to travel to
(23:46):
inspect those trains. And sothat means they sometimes have
to walk the length of thetrain. And that has increased
the time it takes to inspecttrains.
Allan Rutter (23:55):
Well, it also seems to have some impacts on
length of the trains and howthey come through crossings,
which would be my next subject,the blocking of crossings. Was
the committee able to reach anyconclusions about the
connection between train lengthand frequency and duration of
crossing blockage?
David Willhauer (24:13):
No. The data is really not available to do
so, and we learned very quicklythat even though there's some
parts of the country wherethere are really chronic
examples of block crossingssuch as Houston and Chicago and
areas near large rail yards, itcan be any length train that
blocks a crossing. It can be ashort train or a long train. We
(24:35):
found examples all around thecountry where it was really a
function of the geography ofthe town and how the railroads
operated in their yards inthose towns that block certain
crossings. And it's developmentoccurring across the United
States. More and moredevelopment comes around rail
yards, and we find thesubdivisions of communities
(24:55):
being built adjacent to railoperations, and it has an
increasing impact on how thesecrossings get blocked. And when
it comes to responding toemergencies , some towns can be
bifurcated, completely by astopped train that would
prevent first responders fromgetting from one side of the
town to the other. Some townshave invested in technologies
(25:18):
to actually provide amonitoring system so that they
can alert both motorists andfirst responders to a potential
blocked crossing and give theman opportunity to take an
alternative route or perhapschange their plans for that
particular trip. And then othercommunities are taking more
long-term approaches to eithereliminate the crossings or look
(25:39):
at crossing-grade separationprojects, which tend to be
quite expensive and verydifficult to do over multiple
years. It was a challengingtopic because it's something
that's happening around the USbut we didn't really have good
sense of just where and howmuch it was occurring based on
the inability to get the datafor that.
Allan Rutter (25:58):
Yeah, grade-crossing safety and
related issues are subjectsthat TTI has studied
extensively for decades. One ofthe things that was clarified
when we conducted the study isa legal determination that
regulating block crossings is amatter of federal jurisdiction,
not state laws or localordinances. Early in 2024, the
(26:20):
Supreme Court let stand anappellate court ruling that
blocked crossing statutes werepreempted by federal laws on
rail safety and rail economicregulation. Now, neither
Congress nor the FederalRailroad Administration has
entered that regulatory spacejust yet, but the courts have
determined that the feds ownthat space. The effect of that
(26:42):
for me is a bit like a familythat owns a big lake house
owned by their grandparentsuntil the house is inherited by
one of the family members whochooses to keep the house
boarded up so that it can't beused by the family anymore. The
heir may not use the house, butno one can.
David Willhauer (26:58):
Well , you're absolutely right. The states
and local jurisdiction used tobe able to work out solutions
with railroads and even finerailroads for blocked
crossings. But recent courtcases have resulted in that no
longer being possible. So itreally does need to be a
federal solution. And while theSurface Transportation Board is
currently reviewing differentrailroad cases, we believe that
(27:22):
the Federal RailroadAdministration should really be
in a position to require therailroads to supply the data
that would illustrate whichcrossings are being blocked the
most, and to shine the light,if you will, on those
communities where the problemsare the worst, and allow those
communities to work closelywith the railroads and come up
with a solution. And, informedby that data, they can make
(27:46):
decisions on what can be done.
And the railroads can in turnconsider how they may change
operations to reduce thosecrossing delays because we've
learned that they're able tochange operations when needed
to to reduce blocked crossingoccurrences. And we believe
that the Federal RailroadAdministration is gonna need to
get involved because there willlikely be necessary to have
(28:10):
some penalty for not providingthat information in order to
provide incentives for therailroads to provide that data.
And because the SurfaceTransportation Board also is
involved in railroad disputeand so forth, whatever the
Federal Railroad Administrationdoes needs to be allied with
what the Surface TransportationBoard is doing as well.
Allan Rutter (28:33):
So, more data, a little more coordination, not
that it gets any simpler. Thefinal subject of the report is
the effects of long trains onAmtrak's inner-city passenger
trains that operate on freightrail lines. What kinds of
issues did the committeediscover and what does the
committee recommend be doneabout those conflicts?
David Willhauer (28:55):
The representatives from Amtrak
presented to the committee in avery comprehensive summary of
situations that have occurredover the years with delays to
passenger trains due to freightrail operations such as long
trains operating in areas wherethe sidings are not long enough
to allow passenger trains topass. And Amtrak has had
(29:19):
statutory preference to operatepassenger-rail service since
its inception, but it hasn'talways been enforced. And with
regard to long trains, the onlyreal enforcement that we felt
we could justify was a freightrailroad operates a long train
in a subdivision where theirsidings are not long enough to
(29:42):
be able to accommodate apassenger train such as an
Amtrak train to pass thatfreight train. And so when it
comes to meets and passes, wefelt like that was a logical
place to focus. There wereother examples that Amtrak
provided about how there was anincrease in broken knuckles
over the period of time sincelong trains have been operating
(30:05):
and, incidents where crews haveto be recrewed and they run out
of hours of service becausethey've spent the whole day
operating a longer train thattakes longer to get where it
needs to go. All freight trainsexperience troubles with
recrewing and broken knuckles.
So, we focused primarily on theareas where rail sidings were
not sufficient to allow passingpassenger trains.
Allan Rutter (30:29):
And just for our listeners who are not foamers,
broken knuckles refers to thecouplers that connect one car
to another, where they sort ofwrap around each other. And
it's that connection, whichlooks like hands connecting to
each other that we describe asthe broken knuckle, right?
David Willhauer (30:47):
Yeah, that's right.
Allan Rutter (30:49):
Now, you and some of the committee members have
been able to brief this study'ssponsors that the Federal
Railroad Administration, andvisit with some congressional
staff in advance of the releaseof the report. What's been
their overall reaction to thereport?
David Willhauer (31:05):
Overall, it's been mixed because if you can
imagine, the congressionalrepresentatives have different
opinions about long-trainoperations and whether or not
there should be regulatoryaction for or against train
operations. So we had a livelydiscussion with our
congressional representativesabout the results of our report
(31:26):
and our recommendations, assome of the members were in
agreement with some of therecommendations and others were
not. Our sponsor was pleasedwith the report. There was also
the report where an opportunityfor them to review these
risk-reduction programs, andthis has been very much a work
(31:49):
in progress since the railroadsare not required to complete
their risk-reduction plans intheir entirety until 2025. So,
our recommendations were reallyfocused on what they should
look like when they'recompleted. And it was important
to recognize that the FederalRailroad Administration is
working closely with therailroads to audit those risk
(32:12):
reduction plans. That was apart of our conversation with
our sponsor. We also were ableto recognize that alongside
this study, the FederalRailroad Administration was
conducting some of their ownstudies on air brakes with
trains with 100 cars in lengthand 200 cars in length . And
they did both stationary andmoving tests of air brakes in a
(32:34):
comprehensive study that wasgoing alongside our study. So,
we were able to incorporate theresults of their study in ours.
They also completed a study onthe stakeholder perceptions of
longer trains and ourrecommendations regarding crew
training, and some of thechallenges of crews operating
(32:55):
long trains were echoing someof the findings that they
discovered in their studies onthe same topic. And so it was
an opportunity to recognizesome of the challenges of
long-train operations andpropose, we believe, some
solutions that will have animpact on ensuring their safe
operations in the future.
Allan Rutter (33:17):
Well, thanks again, David, for taking time
to visit with us about thisimportant report. Long-train
issues certainly affect Texascommunities given the number of
rail miles in our state and thefrequency of reports of blocked
crossing issues in Texas. Letme ask you the question we pose
to all of our podcast guests.
What is it that motivates youto show up to work every day ?
David Willhauer (33:40):
Well , thank you, Al. I'm challenged every
day by the complexities oftransportation puzzles, if you
will. We have a diversetransportation network, and
I've been studyingtransportation from maritime to
rail and transit and freightoperations my whole career. And
(34:01):
it's a challenging topic, andit requires understanding the
systems, but also being able toexplain it in developing
policies. And I'm continuallyimpressed with how my
colleagues work to solve theseproblems together. And at the
National Academies, we'reconstantly facing studies of
this kind where we have tofigure out how to solve
(34:22):
problems with some verytalented individuals and
committee members. And I enjoyworking with people on solving
problems and working throughsolutions and trying to make an
improvement every day.
Allan Rutter (34:35):
Well, it was a whole lot of fun working with
you on this report, and Ireally appreciate you spending
some time with us on thepodcast, helping our listeners
understand what the report isall about. Thanks again.
David Willhauer (34:47):
Thank you, Al . Thanks for serving on the
committee.
Allan Rutter (34:52):
Our nation's freight railroads are privately
owned and operated. Sometimestheir private-sector activities
can affect communities adjacentto rail lines. Economists call
these effects "externalities,"costs or benefits that affect a
third party not directlyinvolved in private-sector
transactions. Members ofCongress were concerned about
(35:15):
the externalities of long-trainoperations--safety risks,
blocked crossings. And delayedpassenger trains, and they
asked for this consensus studyto consider what the
externalities are and how theymight be mitigated. It's a
complicated set of issues, andthe recently released report
offers a thorough discussionabout what is known and what
(35:37):
more needs to be known aboutthe operations of long trains.
We hope today's discussionoffers insights into the study
and that it may encourage ourlisteners to read the report
for themselves. Thanks forlistening. Please take just a
minute to give us a review,subscribe, and share this
episode. And please join usnext time for another
(35:58):
conversation about gettingourselves and the stuff we need
from point A to point B.
Thinking Transportation is aproduction of the Texas A&M
Transportation Institute, amember of The Texas A&M
University System. The show isedited and produced by Chris
Porteau. I'm your host, AllanRutter. Thanks again for
(36:18):
listening. We'll see you nexttime .
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